Last night 60 Minutes aired a controversial report into selective reduction.
Selective reduction is the practice of aborting one or more fetuses in a multiple pregnancy for medical or ‘lifestyle’ reasons, if the parents do not wish to have more than one or two babies.
The reduction procedure is generally carried out during the first trimester of pregnancy and the most common method used is to inject potassium choloride into the fetus’s heart; the heart stops and the fetus dies as a result.
With IVF becoming increasingly common, the number of multiple pregnancies is increasing and the practice of selective reduction is becoming more widespread.
60 Minutes interviewed one mother with triplets who chose not to selectively reduce and another mother who was pregnant with triplets via IVF and decided to reduce down to one foetus because she only wanted one child.
There was also a mother who reduced for health reasons. Kass Hall writes:
The discussions around the water cooler across Australia today will be firey, no doubt, after the story on “selective reduction” on Sixty Minutes. Twitter and Facebook are in meltdown, with a range of views from ‘murder’ right through to ‘it’s a woman’s right to choose’, and everything in between.
The story by Michael Usher looked at women who have chosen to take this course of action due to lifestyle or financial choices, as opposed to reasons of impaired health for either mother or child. Many (but not all) of the women have used IVF and other reproductive technology to get pregnant.
I’m 34 years old and have survived cancer four times in 21 years. It has not only ravaged my body through surgery and treatments, it has also left me unable to conceive my own child. Given the long term nature of my diagnosis, I also don’t meet the criteria for adopting or fostering.
Despite my inability to have a child, I am strongly pro-choice – in fact I believe both men and women should have complete control over their bodies and what they do with them. But it’s hard to get my head around the women in the Sixty Minutes story on Sunday night.
My problem with selective reduction is two-fold: first, the way it occurs. A needle containing poison being injected into the heart of the fetus, until it stops beating. I don’t think it matters whether you support or oppose the ethics or morality of selective reduction. Watching that needle being inserted on the sonogram was horrific. (Ed’s Note: One Mamamia reader has had to make this heartbreaking decision before – you can read about that story in full here)
However, the more pressing issue (to me) is that people assert their rights without following through on their responsibilities.
There are many theories on when life begins. Whether it’s upon conception, within the first three months of the fetal development or whether you believe a baby is not alive until its born, is really not the issue at hand. The issue is whether a mother has the right to abort that child for lifestyle reasons. When you choose to get pregnant through IVF, when you choose to implant more than one egg – do you then get to choose if that fetus continues to birth? At what stage do the rights of that baby kick in?
The two concepts cannot be mutually exclusive – you cannot have the freedom to make a decision without also being responsibility for the consequences of that decision.
Frankly, this is where I get really frustrated with the use of IVF and other reproductive technology in general. It’s a fabulous use of science to help people who can’t get pregnant naturally. But when it is used by people because of their lifestyle choices – this is where I believe it crosses into unsavory ground.
Having more than one baby doesn’t suit your lifestyle? Waiting until you can’t conceive naturally because you got busy career wise? Implanting three eggs with intention of terminating two – choosing the healthiest one or the gender your prefer this time around? Where do we draw the line? When do the corresponding responsibilities of being a parent kick in?
CNN, The Washington Post and other media outlets have reported on what the fertility world calls its “dirty little secret”. But there seems no-one in a position of leadership is willing to confront the issue head on and really open it up to public debate. This isn’t a pro-abortion vs anti-abortion debate. This is about using technological advances in a responsible way.
None of these women are responsible for my situation or the situation of other reproductively challenged women. But they do have a responsibility – as do doctors – to use the technology in an ethical, responsible way. It’s much like the development of nuclear and chemical weapons. We know how to, but does that mean we should?
Calling a fetus “tissue in my body” (as one of the American women in the Sixty Minutes story did) says to me that there is a serious gap in the way we monitor and regulate IVF use, and the hoops adoptive and foster parents have to go through. I just can’t get my head around it. I can’t be a mother through no fault of my own. Yet these women have access to wonderful technology and use it in a way that makes a mockery of what IVF is there for in the first place. IVF is not about choosing your child so they fit the mould you want them to. A natural conception doesn’t grant you this privilege and neither should IVF. IVF is about giving you an opportunity you would otherwise not have. Children are not shoes – you can’t just shop around until you find the pair that suits you best.
These women should take their responsibilities as parents a lot more seriously, or consider getting a pet rock instead.
Kass Hall is an artist and writer from Melbourne. You can follow her blog here or on Twitter here.
What do you think of selective reduction?







Comments
377 Comments so far
I think what upset me the most (besides the procedure footage) was the flippant, almost callous attitude of those two women. The reasoning behind their choice being the maintenance of a NY lifestyle?! Sick. The one who commented that she couldn’t adopt them out because she couldn’t choose who to keep…she did just that! Except she chose to kill two rather than gift an infertile couple with a precious bub. I agree with IVF but this story just left me shattered. Probably wasn’t a good idea at 35 weeks pregnant to view something so horrific.
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Hi Mel –
First of all, good luck for the impending arrival!!
Second – I think, when it comes down to it, that is what riled me too. Perhaps not the choice so much as the flippant and mean spirit in which they made it. It was all too indifferent to me – it’s a baby, not a Prada bag!
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Thank you Kass. Just bought our final big item so I think we’re ready..maybe!
A great article, I agree with the Prada bag comment. It felt like the child was an accessory. I also hated the use of the term ‘litter’ that the second woman used to refer to the babies as. I mean come on, how can you be so dismissive of the lives growing inside of you?!
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as an animal lover and the owner of a pug who was in a litter of six, of which 3 died and she was the smallest survivor and has not developed as she might have in a smaller litter, I was offended by that too. Besides puppy litters are about the cutest thing ever!
yes yes, now I am trivialising…..but you get my point!
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As the 43 year old mother of a gorgeous baby boy that has just turned one, I found the footage of the needle going into that womb horrific! I completely agree with your thoughts on the two “Mothers” that were so flippant and unemotional about terminating the lives of those babies growing inside you. There are so many people out there that are struggling to become pregnant that would do anything for one, two even three babies and these women terminated just because it wasn’t convenient ! I look at the miracle that my baby is every single minute of every single day and it breaks my heart that those fetus’s were not given the chance to bring love and joy into someone’s life. I can’t believe that unless there is a major medical reason for this procedure it is even legal.
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I just wonder what would happen if, after killing off two unwanted foetuses (or babies, as I call them), the one that they decided to keep was stillborn, or miscarried. I wonder how often this happens, and how the women cope in these circumstances.
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Mel, the women in question do not have any responsibility of “gifting” an infertile couple a baby.
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i’m a twin. my parents found out they were having twins only a few weeks before we were prematurely born. It was a financial strain for them but they managed. guess my sister and i are lucky that they didn’t have this option available to them or one of us may not be here.
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Well that’s bulls–, they don’t do selective reductions that late.
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i don’t think my comment is bull$shit but i do think you are incredibly rude for saying that.
I didn’t suggest that they would do a selective reduction that late in a pregnancy.
What I said was if they had the option available to them they may have considered it.
I was also describing their situation and how they found out (by an x-ray actually as this was before ultrasounds) at around 7 months and they just had to go with it. And they considered themselves very lucky despite the impact on their lifestyle, as we both were in hospital for a considerable amount of time afterwards and were lucky to make it with no lasting health problems.
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Selective Reduction only occurs between 9-13 weeks.
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Last year I found out I was pregnant…with twins (I come from a very large family and there are NO multiples anywhere…). Two weeks later I found out there was a number three. Triplets. Naturally. Not IVF.
BUT…and here’s the BUT – I have a very weak cervix (have twice miscarried at around 20 weeks…). I couldn’t have a cerclage put on because I was pregnant with triplets.
There was always the chance that one, two or all wouldn’t survive the first trimester. But they did…they survived all the way up to 21 weeks when my cervix decided it couldn’t take it any more (and I’d been on almost 100% bed rest since 14 weeks.)
Reducing in this case would’ve meant I would’ve had a CHANCE to have a second child (my first was a result of a LONG LONG LONG stay in hospital on total bed rest – luckily the country I live in now allows for that)
Unfortunately reduction was not an option (legally) but would I have chosen it? Dunno…but I DO know the stress of the pregnancy, the miscarriage, the heartbreak, the strain on our marriage, a miscarriage of perfectly formed triplets (I’d just had the 20-week scan) can have.
Please don’t judge anyone. It’s so not worth it.
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Agree, agree, agree.
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I am so sorry for everything you have been through. The difference for me though is an important one – you didn’t create this situation, you had to play the cards you were dealt.
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I feel your pain and grieve your loss. I hope it gets easier a little each day.xx
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Watching the sonogram made me want to vomit, I want to desperately get pregnant so it was difficult to watch, however as a medical scientist in obstetrics i was extremely disappointed at the one sided coverage. While selective reduction is NOT a choice I would willingly make, the facts were not given.
Many triplet pregnancies can cause the mother and babies severe problems. If a baby is born preterm which in the case of triplets it would be as this is too much strain on a normal body, the baby can have many health problems not to mention being correlated with high incidence of disease later in life like heart disease, stroke etc. the reason many selective reduction procedures are done are to save the mother or healthy children.
This story was totally one sided and very emotive driven. Shame on 60 minutes.
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Thanks Lauren for balancing up the argument. I’m a triplet mum – we implanted two embryos but got three babies. I was first presented with the option of selective reduction by my doctors at the 12 week scan. They said “you’d better decide now – or by tomorrow at the latest”. I was shocked. Luckily, we had just been told our babies were growing well. As we already had one child I could easily visualise the babies as children. We were also told we’d have to “reduce” the identical twins. WIth all those reasons, I couldn’t do it then and I’m still happy with that decision. Despite that, I strongly object to the term “lifestyle reasons”. Having triplets has blown my world apart and the stress is a constant factor in our lives several years later. I don’t agree with the way the “reduction” is done, but please don’t judge anyone for knowing their limits.
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yes, raising triplets would be very demanding but there is the option of adoption or fostering for those people who can;’t cope
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Hmmm… choosing to put my children in foster care. I don’t think so.
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I still cannot get this…can you try and explain it to me…selective reduction would be OK for your foetus, but adoption/foster care not be? Can you explain?
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Please read my comment. I did not selectively reduce.
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I think that if you choose to bring a child into this world then it’s your job to protect it, raise it and care for it. Not just chuck it into foster care or an adoption centre, where it might be abused, neglected and abandoned.
I am not prepared to have a child at the moment so I won’t bring one into the world. I don’t believe that termination causes physical, emotional or mental harm to the foetus – so I can live with it. But abandoning my child that I chose to bring into the world, simply because I don’t want it? I couldn’t live with that.
There’s a HUGE difference to me.
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So killing them is the better alternative over adoption? Hmm makes sense!
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Sorry for the somewhat late reply. Not being in Australia, I’ve missed the boat on a lot of the discussion going on and was alerted by the producers to several forums (this one in particular). I noted above a few (not my entire) story… I have to say tripletmum, you are an open-minded kind soul. You are a lucky, blessed lady! Congrats on your little ones. I did know my limits, and my body knew them too…and I do know all about that “make a choice, NOW” bit. I made the best choice I could with the information I was given. You did too.
My flippant choice of words in the interview could have been slightly adjusted, yes, I agree.
But, I was asked a few questions that didn’t make it to the TV:
First:
Q: what would you say to a triplet mother?
A: she’s so lucky and so blessed. My only wish is that she could embrace my choice as I embrace hers.
Second:
Q: what do you want women to take from this interview?
A: know what their limits are before entering into fertility. If they know they don’t want to take risks with a high order multiples pregnancy, they need to decide early on how to handle that.
I wish you the best!!! And again, thank you for renewing my faith in people. It was tough enough to share my story, I find it distressing some suggest I experience physical harm while others question what kind of mama I am. (in truth, I’m pretty boring).
And yes, HEALTH was a major factor for us in our decision to selectively reduce (terminate, abort, what have you).
I would cut off my arm to have avoided this procedure–but, it was the cards I was dealt and, at the end of the day, I couldn’t have lived with myself if one/two or more babies had died. I had to act, and I do have some pride in the fact that my decision saved my family.
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Shelby – I fully support your decision and your right to make it. You don’t need to justify your decision to me. I also don’t think you would need to justify it to anyone who has any knowledge of what is actually involved or why these decisions are made. Please try to shrug off any negativity that has come from this and move forward. I wish you the very best. x
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Triplet Mum, you are one in a million. ((virtual hug))
Australia now knows this is an option, and women know they are NOT alone in their choice in doing/having done this procedure.
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That might be an option in some kind of fantasy world but is not very realistic one.
Have you actually really thought that scenario through?
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I’m adopted. So are lots of my friends. Not sure what your point is…how is adoption not a realistic option? I am grateful to my biological mother (and I like her very much).
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Would you feel any differently if you had been a twin, and your birth mother had adopted you out and kept your birth sibling… i.e. had chosen him/her over you?
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Having triplets and then adopting one or two out doesn’t seem like a realistic option to me. Can you imagine the mental health implications for the mother and then for the child adopted out who would forever be wondering why their mother didn’t want them?
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I am replying to you Rose in this weird position as are comments are so tiny that they don’t allow replies. I will do this topic justice some day…but in brief, YES, I would not have missed out on my four decades for anything (including knowing my mother gave me away and kept a twin). The feelings I have for my relinquishing parents are mostly enormous gratitude for the courage and love it took to bear me and give me to someone else to raise.
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my comment is not for or against selective reduction, but you need to understand that carrying triplets can be VERY unsafe for mother and baby. like i said, its too much stress on a body, the babies WILL be born preterm. The reason for selective reduction is to preserve health, hence carrying three babies and then adopting them would not solve the health problems many families use selective reduction for.
i think the small minority would actually use it because “its too hard to hard three” or “too expensive”
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Exactly Lauren. When doctors presented selective reduction to me, the word ‘lifestyle’ was not in anyone’s vocabulary. It was all about health – and I don’t mean health in a lovely ‘lifestyley’ way – I mean health as in ‘life and death’ for all four of us concerned.
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Here here! We blogged about it over at Alli & Genine (www.alliandgenine.com) today too,but as an adopted kid I took a slightly different view. So many people, just like yourself and my adopted parents, can’t have kids -it’s heartbreaking, and I have watched so many close friends and family members endure heartache after heartache. Yet these women have the most amazing opportunity – to see their pregnancies through to full-term and gift a baby to a couple who DOES want one but can’t have one. One of the women said “Oh, I considered adoption but how would I choose one to keep?”. Well, you managed to “choose one to keep” when they were tiny foetuses in your womb! Don’t see the difference really, only by going through with the pregnancy, yes there are health risks with three, they could give the most prescious gift anyone could ask for – the gift of becoming a parent. ADOPTION would be such an amazing option for these mothers! So many issues here – really enjoyed your take on it! Alli
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Thanks for your lovely reassurance Alli. I appreciate it
Actually I have appreciated everyone’s contributions, agreeable or otherwise. Just goes to show there is no simple answer.
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I know this seems crazy but if for some reason if I was unable to bring up my child myself, I would prefer to abort as I can’t bear the thought of the possibility of my child being in an awful situation. This seems crazy even to me but it is such an emotive issue. BTW, this is not an opinion on selective reduction. I casn’t imagine how anyone who went through IVF could even consider aborting one unless there were medical reasons.
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The statistics for triplet and quadruplet pregnancies are frightening. 1 in 3 triplet/quad pregnancies results in death, 100% of triplets don’t make it to 36 weeks, 60% don’t make it to 33 weeks. Only 1 in 100 triplet pregnancies present without major health issues (developmental delays, CP, deaf/blind, severe neurological disorders) Selective reduction is a means of giving a future child the best possible outcome. Check out the american centers for disease control: http://www.cdc.gov, a great place to understand the risks of high-order multiples.
** we are in the process of adoption. Long road for us, but it’s looking like we’ll be finished within the next year. We are over-the-moon excited.
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Shelby I know we’ve covered this above but I do think it’s important to stress again to people reading that where there is a HEALTH risk then of course I understand that sometimes difficult decisions have to be made and I am empathetic and sorry for any woman who has to make it. It is the “lifestyle” reasons outlined in the 60Mins story that I have some problems with.
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I think the producers at 60 minutes were trying to push the envelope…they wanted Australians to think about what CHOICE really is. For that, I applaud them.
I don’t find it unethical for a woman to choose to abort or have selective reduction for any reason, whatsoever. This is her choice, period.
I have to say that a patient that I saw at the abortion clinic I worked at had 11 (yes, 11) abortions in a 4 year period. Do I find this a little disquieting, sure, do I support her? YEP!
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I worry when people, who supposedly want a child so badly, start talking about these little life forms as “just tissue”. Huh? What is a child to them? Something you get, like a car or new house? Pick your number, colour, blue/ pink… make sure it all goes with the decor.
Pro-choice or not, I don’t really care about how “logical” a person thinks their argument is. There’s no need to be heartless and mindlessly cruel. Last week I saw my 12 week old baby’s (sorry, but its not a “foetus” to me) heart beating on the ultrasound monitor. The thought of someone stopping a heartbeat like that with a needle makes me feel ferociously angry and I think that’s a natural reaction. Where the hell are this woman’s maternal instincts?
Yes, Kass, I agree. A pet rock seems a more appropriate choice.
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Do you believe that every woman who selectively reduces lacks maternal instincts, or is heartless and cruel?
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I’m sorry, but at 12 weeks, it isn’t a baby. You can call it a baby to humanise it for yourself, but medically it’s a foetus.
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Oh, gee thanks for that. So glad I have your permission. I think most people could tell I know the scientific point is foetus but was calling it a baby to make my point about my feelings. Sheesh.
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You can call it a baby, but it’s not that to everyone else. Your defensive response and use of quotation marks around the term foetus suggest that you are not a friend of science. Oh, and “logic”.
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I don’t really know why you are being such a pedant.
Its semantics to me, but clearly you have other issues.
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I think I’ve made it clear that you are perfectly able to call your wanted foetus a baby. That’s your choice.
But why judge others for using the correct term? It only makes it harder for women to cope with a sometimes difficult choice when other women tear them down for it and try to cripple with emotive language.
I also think that women’s health and rights are very worthy subjects to be pedantic about.
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maybe once you have carried a “foetus” that you have tried so hard to concieve you will think of it more than just a few cells.
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I’m sure I will, but the difference there is that the baby would be wanted. Surely I’d want to humanise it from early on by calling it a baby.
Not the same thing that’s being discussed here.
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As I respect your opinion that a fetus is a baby, I would hope you’d respect mine in that…to me, it is tissue dependent upon me to be sustained.
If you could protect your child, at any cost…would you? That’s maternal instinct. I protected my future child at all costs…I did exactly what I had to do to ensure a safe and healthy baby.
Congrats on your pregnancy!
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I have twins, and theres nothing better.
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Surely we are all either Pro Life or Pro Choice? How can you be Pro Choice but not his particular choice? That’s hypocritical.
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I agree Hayley. That is why I opted not to share my medical issues during the interview. Those are irrelevant–this is an option available to ALL women, whatever the reason may be. CHOICE is CHOICE. I don’t believe one can be pro-choice, with limitations on that. That, becomes a slippery slope and we’d all wind up with the government mandating what we can and cannot do with our bodies…
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For ME, prochoice is pro choice is pro choice. I can’t call meself pro choice and still have a goat someone choosing to abort for any reason.
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100%
Though I was confused for a second as to why you would have a goat.
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That’s a good point, JosieY. Often, we claim to be pro-choice, but really there’s limits, depending on our personal beliefs.
Plenty of people abort one child for ‘lifestyle reasons’ and have no babies at all.
I don’t actually see how that is so different to aborting one baby when you’re pregnant with multiple.
Just because you end up with one baby, it’s different?
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It’s the medical community who believes it’s different. Abortion is evacuation of the uterus, selective reduction eliminates one or more fetuses in the womb.
I don’t really care what people call it. I’m comfortable with either.
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Lol! I love goats. Sheep, on the other hand…
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The choice is open to these women to selectively reduce for any reason they want to and some do exercise that choice. No matter how distasteful it is to many of us, that is part of having a pro-choice society. I would rather have it that was than have abortions regulated and restricted as is happening in many US states at the moment.
I do feel strongly though that the standard in fertility treatments should be one egg implanted at a time, maximum of 2 eggs implanted in particular situations. This could avoid some of these potential situations from ever occurring.
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This ^^^^^^
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Agreed.
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From my experience, most clinics only do one embryo transfer, or a maximum of two. No more are allowed. If you have too many follicles (for instance with IUI) a cycle is cancelled. Or if you release eggs early, you are expressly told not to have sex.
My experience is that within Australia, there are enough checks and balances already occuring.
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This whole thing just makes me really sad. I’m having an ultra sound this week (10 weeks along) and I am actually really nervous that it could be twins – just have that “feeling”. However, no matter how nervous or slightly stressful it would be to have more than one bubba in there terminating is never going to be an option! We’ve been longing for this time to come (although we thankfully didn’t have to go through IVF) so if we are suddenly going to be blessed with twins we would embrace it with all our hearts. I just can’t understand why anyone who is obviously just as eager to get pregnant by going through IVF would do otherwise. So very very sad.
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Well it’s not just about not wanting more than one baby is it? The more babies in there, the riskier the pregnancy is for mother and babies.
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Exactly MJ! Risks to mother and fetus are numerous…
- mortality (fetal demise too)
- neurological disorders
- CP
- Deaf/blind
- loss of the entire pregnancy
Just to name a few. I truly feel like the choice I made was a life-saving choice. It gave my daughter the BEST possible chance at a healthy start…as we say these days, the proof is in the pudding! My little girl was ahead on all of her milestones, is incredibly bright, talkative and a social butterfly. I am so lucky I have such an amazing little person…
And to clarify (again) I did not do IVF, I did IUI and was told I had 2 eggs dropping, later, I was told 4 dropped. Had I known that, I would not have had insemination at all.
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And the risks of terminating one? Don’t kid yourself.
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This is mainly a response to the people who seem to be saying, “You chose to have children via IVF, so you just have to deal with the consequences of multiples”: please ignore the 60 Minutes sensationalism and remember that the decision to undergo selective reduction is, more often than not, agonising and incredibly difficult for the parents involved.
My partner has a chronic illness that means we will have to go through IVF. We will be getting every kind of genetic screening under the sun, and if a fetus has inherited his illness, we will abort that fetus and try again. And if we get pregnant with triplets, we will be selectively reducing – because having triplets is extraordinarily difficult, stressful and all-consuming. I would rather abort two fetuses, have one healthy child and a healthy husband than have triplets and a dead husband in 10 years. The latter situation hardly seems fair to anyone, especially the children.
We have decided to try having only one embryo implanted and hope that it finds my baby oven an accommodating place to grow into a baby – because we very much want to have a child to love and raise to be a respectful, thoughtful human being. But we also understand that a single embryo might not take, so we’re willing to try two.
IVF will be traumatic and difficult. But more traumatic would be my partner having to watch his infant child go through the multiple surgeries that he did, only have that child grow up having to take upward of 60 pills per day, have regular hospital visits and live a life of enormous financial and emotional cost. Or having triplets or quadruplets and seeing my husband’s health deteriorate every day because he has neither the time nor energy to dedicate to keeping himself as healthy as possible – I have no desire to send my husband to an early grave when the technology exists to make our life as a family easier to manage.
I want to build a family with the man I love. I want my child to grow up with a father, and for my husband to be able to watch his child become an adult. My choice, while difficult for some to digest, is also a responsible one for my family’s future.
I am 100% pro-choice. And that means I am 100% PRO-CHOICE. My decision to tinker with what’s in my uterus is mine alone. A woman’s decision to terminate a pregnancy, or a fetus, is hers alone. I won’t always agree with choices made, but I will always respect a woman’s right to choose what happens in her own body.
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Goodness. I’m sitting here with my 11 week old baby. She is the result of 3 rounds of Ivf. For her cycle there were 11 egg, which by day five had reduced to 3 viable blastocysts. We opted to transfer all three as there was more chance of none implanting than all three. (previous cycle transferred two and none took). I can’t say what I would have done if all three had taken and most of these comments are about what people think they would do.
I think you don’t really know what you’ll do until you are faced with a choice.
Good luck!
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Congratulations on your baby girl!
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Why not just transfer the one egg then?
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I did say that we will start with one, but the chances of it ‘taking’ aren’t great, which is why they started doing multiple transfers in the first place.
So, if one doesn’t take, we’re willing to try two (which is the upper limit allowed in Australia. No OctoMomming here) knowing that we may have to make a really hard decision.
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I agree that nobody knows what they would decide but I think if you want a baby that much then 2 or 3 would be double the joy surely. I know what I would do in that situation and that is the same thing I would do if I were to fall pregnant with more than one child and that is to be happy with the miracle I have been given, miracle being created in a test tube or naturally.
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J, how can you say that it would double the joy after reading her story?
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I was not commenting about the first Anon for this one I was commenting on the second “Anon for this one” (finding all the Anon for this one’s confusing to follow). Sorry I was not more specific. I re-read the first comment and do not feel in a position to make judgement on her story as I think she is in a difficult position. In saying that if I WAS in her position I would not choose one child if it meant aborting 2 others for any reason, …but that is purely my opinion and if she is comfortable with that then so be it. However am probably going to get some negative comments for this but I also believe that if we are meant to have children then we will. I am lucky to have 3 healthy children and 1 long term foster child who all bring me endless joy.
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For some reason, I can’t reply to your last comment, J! So this is a response to both of your comments…
For many people, 2 or 3 babies is definitely not double or triple the joy – for me, it would most certainly not be (for the aforementioned ‘premature death of husband’ reasons).
I am wholeheartedly happy for you that your children bring you so much joy, and that you love having a bigger family. But I am more than comfortable with my decision to make the right choice for my family – because it’s mine to make. My womb, my rules. Just like it’s your womb, your rules!
I hope you don’t get negative comments, because I feel like you expressed your thoughts respectfully, despite our difference of opinion.
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thanks Anon and I do respect that you responded in a very mature way. isn’t it great we can have a difference of opinion without it getting nasty. Good luck with everyting, i hope it works out well for you and your husband.
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Good for you, Anon this time. The choice is based on family and love and is complicated and often bittersweet.
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Thanks, Idle Dad. Family and love is indeed what it’s all about!
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Thank you for your post. It is one of the most sensible I’ve read on this article. I commend you on your thoughts, reasons and responsible approach. Best wishes.
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Well written. Know your limits, know what is right for you. Only you can make that choice…I made that choice too. It’s not without heartache or agony, but…you are the ONLY person who gets to determine what is and isn’t right for you.
Many, many hugs to you and yours.
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you say the arguement isnt about when life begins – but at the end of the day i believe that is all it comes down to.
I personally dont believe life begins till the baby start to “feel” so about 3 months, but I also respect people who believe life begins at conception. I do have understand and sympathise with people though who abort on medical grounds later in the term of the pragnancy.
But, I can’t see how I, who doesnt believe a thing is ‘living’ until 3 months could possibly ethically have an issue with selective abortion prior to that time. Sure I can see how it is in bad taste, but ethically – no problem…
I just dont see how you can have one set of rules for one group of people (those who abort due to twins, sex etc) and another for others (those who abort because they simply dont want a baby)..
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Just to clarify: if someone aborted a baby simply because they didn’t get the gender they wanted, I would be mortified and would not be supportive of that choice. Someone very close to me didn’t want sons and said she would abort if she had one. Thankfully both her children are girls but I would have been VERY upset with her (and she is close enough that I would be allowed to be upset!).
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How could you be upset? It is her life and her choice.
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as an infertile woman who cannot access IVF, if my sister terminated a pregnancy based on the gender of her child only, I would be VERY upset. VERY. I would have happily adopted her son had she had one. If my own sister showed that level of disrespect for her child (ie terminating based purely because she didnt want a SON) then she wouldnt deserve to be a mother. The insensitivity of it, especially considering her sister (me) is in the situation I am – you bet I’d be angry.
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Agree 100% Kass. It might be HER body and choice but that does not make it right or ethical. Imagine what sort of world we would be in if this was readily available. Should we end up like China and India with no girls? Good god pro choice to me does not mean this.
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But the thing is, she doesn’t owe anything to you. If she didn’t want a son, then so be it. It’s her body and her life.
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Yes but we all owe something to the planet and sustaining life and not aborting because of gender meaning we have an imbalance of girls and boys like India or China.
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You clearly have no comprehension of compassion of familial bonds. She doesn’t owe me anything, but I would be devastated if she had taken that course of action, as would our other sister, our parents and others. If you cannot see how destructive that decision would be within a family, given our circumstances, then there is very little point in conversing with you.
Incidently, you’re obviously cool with the Chinese who abort their female babies so they get a boy to carry on the family name?
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Woah. Does your sister know that you’re airing her personal opinions on here?
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Hi there,
Thanks for your views Kass – always brave to share such personal experiences.
Could I suggest to Mamma Mia that in the interests of balance about such an emotive issue that you seek expert opinion on the Australian situation for these issues – as the policy and legal settings are quite different to the US.
I am not an expert, but know a little about this and offer the following thoughts:
- Australia is the world leader in fertility medicine.
- Improvements in IVF technology in Australia have improved the success rate of IVF (ie of falling pregnant and having a baby) and vastly reduced the likelihood of multiple births arising from IVF. A good IVF clinic will counsel against multiple embryo implants in most circumstances.
- In Australia, women may use IVF technology to avoid having a baby with a devastating genetic disease through a procedure known as PGD; but IVF and PGD cannot be used in Australia for “lifestyle” factors like sex selection of a baby – ie to pick a girl or boy. This is not allowed.
It’s very important that the facts -in the Australian context – are placed on the table in the midst of such an emotive debate.
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Good point Kay.
What we do here in Australia is vastly different from America.
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Brilliant response. I was hoping someone would comment along these lines. (I’m in the middle of IVF so a bit close to home for me). You are absolutely spot on though about Australia’s legislation as opposed to the States. First and foremost in Australia the maximum number of embryos that can be implanted is only 2. Not to mention all of the other very relevant points you have mentioned.
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Thank you for providing some facts. It was my understanding that we recommend the implementation of a single embryo in Australia, and I’m glad to see that I understood correctly.
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I dont think we should ever underestimate the risks of a triplet pregnancy. A woman who naturally conceived 3 babies would have a heartbreaking choice to make and shouldnt be criticised for choosing what she considers the best outcome for her family.
In circumstances of IVF triplet pregnancies its not as black and white to me as there is a choice in the number of embryos transferred, perhaps Doctors should be more responsbile and ethical in the first place to avoid this situation arising.
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This is a tough one. I guess generally I would say its only ok due to health reasons. Having said that I’m not sure I could “do” triplets! Don’t think I would terminate though…
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The harsh reality is that most people cannot afford 3 or more children. Sorry, but that’s just how it is in today’s economy. I’d rather have had a poisoned heart at 12 weeks of age than live in a life where I was given few opportunities due to lack of resources and parental attention.
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You’re right – raising three kids is not cheap in this day and age. But if you are using IVF and paying (big money) for the service, surely you do the responsible thing and only implant one egg? Ultimately that’s the point I am trying to make in my article – it’s about using the technology in a responsible way.
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The technology is not that dependable though, unfortunately. Having one embryo implanted does not equate to definitely having one baby.
There is no exact science that can tell which embryo will survive and which won’t. That is why people are more likely to implant more than one, rather than the alternative of dumping it.
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of course it’s not dependable – but you implant more than one egg knowing the possibilities. You go ahead anyway because you want to be a parent. You want the joy of children in your life (OK some days not so joyful hey Mums!). You do it in the hope you get lucky with one, but knowing you might get two. Maybe three. If you only want ONE then you take the single option – everyone wins.
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It’s really not that simple Kass.
Or maybe it is for people looking from the outside in.
See my post below about reasons for putting more than one embryo, hopefully it can explain things a little more.
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Agree 150% with you Kass. So many people don’t seem to want to take responsibility for their choices anymore.
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And so many people judge without knowing the facts. We implanted two embryos – for various reasons but partly because the second one probably would not have survived freezing for another cycle – but both of them ‘took’ then one of them split and we got three babies. We never expected to be so ‘successful’. We didn’t selectively reduce, but the stress has been massive, so I think people in my situation could do without the added stress of judgemental people.
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You could say that about most woman who decides to abort a pregnancy due to not wanting a baby.
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I don’t agree. The harsh reality is that too many people these days are not willing to make any sort of compromise to their standard of living in order to raise children. God forbid you can’t eat out at a nice restaurant at least once every week, or you need to drive a car that’s a good ten years’ old, or you can’t have that flat screen TV that everyone else has. Material possessions are not the be all and end all. Moreover, as a mother of “multiples”, I can assure you that not one of them gets any less love than they would have had they been a single child. I agree 100% with the author of the article. We need to draw a line somewhere when it comes to choice.
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The economic concerns played a VERY small role in our decision making (check comments on page 1, you can read further about how we made this decision). I do, however, believe economic is just as valid as any other concern. Whether it’s mental health, relationships, career…those are just as valid as any other concern. High-order multiples are HIGHLY risky…the risk to both the fetus and mother are so extreme that in some countries, RU486 is administered the moment high-order multiples are discovered. The decision is multi-facted. You were watching two women who are years and years out from the process of making the decision to selectively reduce. The “cold” nature you interpreted could possibly come from the journalist asking us OVER and OVER again the same questions…and I was managing a moody toddler in the background. Neither of us came to this decision lightly. Nor did the idea of foregoing a flat screen or prada bag (which I do not own ANY luxury goods) ever come into play. Material goods were not at the heart of my decision…the risk to my future child and the risks to me were just too great.
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Bec, you can only say “i’d rather have a poisoned heart, than…” because you weren’t aborted. Rather comical really….
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I was horrified by the way 60 minutes handled this story. I don’t agree with this personally and find these stories distressing so generally avoid them. I didn’t even have time to reach my remote to turn it off before there was a baby on screen being terminated right in front of me, without any warning that it was coming. The image made me start to cry instantly ( I have struggled with infertility and had a stillborn baby so terminating healthy babies is a sore spot with me) and have no doubt this is exactly the response the producers were aiming for. It’s unlikely I’ll be watching 60 minutes anymore if shock value is how they tell their stories.
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It was a horrible and biased way to portray the subject, and I’m sorry it was triggering for you, a warning was needed. They indeed went for the shock value angle here.
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They did give a warning before hand.
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This whole issue makes me sick in my stomach. I’m not against abortion, anyone can make a mistake and conceive a child that that they feel that they can’t possible have.
But these IVF babies that are selectively terminated, they weren’t conceived in error they were deliberately given life only to have it snatched back.
I have a family member who had fertility issues and was 100% against abortion because people were throwing babies away when people like her couldn’t have one. So she had IVF and they implanted the two most healthy embryos and flushed the others away. To me that was no different to having multiple abortions in one go, but she would never see it as so.
Huxley’s “Brave New World” has got nothing on what is happening in the world of reproduction today.
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Well, it’s probably a good thing you’re not in a position to make legislation.Flushing embryos (possibly even frozen) is a long way away from abortion/termination of pregnancy.
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I’m a bit disappointed in this article. Contrary to what I thought Mamamia is supposed to be about, this is providing yet another diving board to jump off and demonise some women having to make particular choices…
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I’m sorry you feel that way, Susan. I will say though that this piece is MY opinion and not Mamamia’s so it’s important that you direct your disappointment toward me.
I have no problem with women aborting or selectively reducing a pregnancy where there are significant health issues involved. My own inability to have children is not 100% infertility – although the chances of my carrying a child to term are about 10000-1. But I also don’t want to put a child at risk of making it to term and then living a life of illness, pain and difficulty. So I don’t take my 10000-1 chances.
What I DO object to is the deliberate implanting of eggs using IVF, knowing the possibilities of twins/triplets/beyond, and then when the woman gets what she wants (pregnant!), she then terminates one or more baby because it doesn’t suit her lifestyle. There needs to be accountability for the decision made – once that baby has a heartbeat, it’s no longer just about Mum.
I have no problem with women making decisions, as long as when they exercise that “right” they also take the responsibility that comes with it.
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Fair enough Kass, though I respectively disagree with your stance.
I am curious though, you said you aren’t against abortion where there are health issues involved. Would you mind clarifying your stance on abortion in general? (as you did say you were pro-choice) Does this also hold for abortions due to lifestyle choices where accidental pregnancy occurs? (no IVF)
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Hi Susan,
It’s nice to have a mature discussion isn’t it?
I will say up front that I hold very few religious views – about the only thing I categorically believe in is that I don’t know everything and I probably don’t want to anyway. Just in case anyone was wondering if that was my angle.
This is just my PERSONAL opinion and it’s not infalliable.
I am 100% in favour of abortion being available to women.
If a woman falls pregnant naturally, and doesn’t want the child for lifestyle reasons, I would *prefer* she gave that child up for adoption rather than abort. Adoption rates are so low in this country, mainly because abortion is an easily accessed option. But I am not naive enough to think that adoption is an option for most.
In the case where a mother or child is at extreme health risk by proceeding with the pregnancy, abortion may in fact be the humane option for all involved. Whether it is a natural conception or IVF is not relevant in that situation. It’s sad and tragic but sometimes that is the best option and I know women who have had to take this option due to health issues. It’s gut wrenching for all.
What I DO object to is utilising IVF and then aborting a child for non medical reasons. IVF has only one aim: to give women with fertility issues the chance to have their own child. I don’t understand why you would CHOOSE IVF and pay all that money and then choose to abort one or more of those children because it doesn’t suit your “lifestyle”. If a woman cannot afford more than one child at a time, they should implant one egg at a time. That is one of the advantages of IVF over natural conception – you can have some semblence of control! IVF isn’t cheap but my concern is that convenience is being put ahead of responsibility in that situation.
IVF wasn’t invented for designer babies or for choosing which baby lives and which baby doesn’t. IVF was invented to provide life. To then end that life which was deliberately created….well I can’t wear that.
Clear as mud? LOL
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Kass, designer babies are one thing, but I think we’ve already acknowledged that twinning can happen post-implantation (as has happened to some commenters here), and that sometimes selective reduction is done because of the mother’s health or the baby’s health.
I would argue that IVF has multiple aims – it may also be done to assist with male infertility (procedures such as ICSI), and may also be done for the purpose of obtaining embryos in a clinical environment where they can be tested for particular genes to avoid transmission of a genetic condition such as CD or DMD. IVF may have been invented to provide life, but it has gone beyond that now, to providing life in particular contexts – such as being free of a particular condition, or selecting only female embryos to avoid transmitting an X-linked dominant disorder.
I do appreciate your opinions on this – I think abortion and IVF have such broad spectrums of what is acceptable to which people under which circumstances, and when the two issues intersect such as in the case of selective reduction, it’s bound to create even more angst.
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You cannot be pro-choice and against selective reduction. It’s hypocritical. They’re both effectively the same thing. To some calling a baby a fetus is as dehumanizing as calling it a ‘clump of cells’ Both are killing babies.
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Agree.
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Totally agree, there’s no difference between abortion and selective reduction in both cases a baby is killed.
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I do (respectfully) disagree but I see where you’re coming from. I think (in my own opinion) there is a difference between falling pregnant and having an abortion for whatever reason and utilising reproductive technology with the express purpose of having a child, then aborting one or two because more than one egg took.
But I do appreciate why you feel that way and it’s not an invalid point.
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Yes you can. I’m pro choice as accidents happen, contraception can fail and rape is a horrible reality. IVF on the other hand is a choice – the life has been purposely created with the intention of having a baby. Two completely different situations
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That still end in the killing of a baby for convenience. If you are pro choice then you are pro-choice – no middle ground.
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Foetus is the medical term. If someone wants to call their own foetus a ‘baby’, bully for them, but it is correct.
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I was particularly disappointed in 60 Minutes for being as sensational as possible – but was naive to expect anything less. Showing the process itself, with that needle being inserted while the reporter intoned “Three little hearbeats….” disgusted me. As did the positioning of the two American women as straight out selfish cows not wishing to be inconvenienced, as opposed to the Australian mother down in her garden with her admittedly gorgeous triplets, looking the part of the Earth Mother.
One comment I found somewhat offensive from one of the Americans was her equating a multiple birth to a “litter”. I believe she said something along the lines of “I had a single child pregnancy, as humans are meant to do…” leading into a reference to multiples being somehow akin to an animal having a litter. So disrespectful to all those parents of twins, triplets etc. A multiple birth may not be your choice, however, if you want resoect for your choice, give others that same respect for theirs.
I am firmly pro-choice, but have to say selective reduction to reduce inconvenience does not sit easily
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I stopped watching 60 mins long ago but as someone who lost one of my naturally conceived twins 7 years ago, I find the subject matter heartbreaking. We had never dreamed we might have twins but after a year of trying to have a baby, felt we had been doubly blessed. To have one of the babies then taken away, despite us not planning for it was devastating. I guess you never know what someone else is going through but I cannot comprehend this.
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Very well said! I agree with the author entirely
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‘Calling a fetus “tissue in my body” ‘
Literally makes me shudder.
I saw my daughter’s heart beating at 8 weeks in the sonogram, there were four chambers of her little beating heart… I’m pro-choice and believe in a woman’s right to abortion until 12 weeks. But I don’t understand how a mum who desperately wants a child (and is paying handsomely through IVF) could consider a fetus with a beating heart to be simply “tissue”. Breaks my heart.
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I think that’s what made me want to right this piece, Megs.
If that woman had been told “your baby is severely disabled and probably wont make it to term without risking it’s twin or yourself”, I think most women would be compassionate and understand the decision. It would not be an easy one to make. But to simply refer to her child as “tissue” was horrific. I just don’t get that.
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Kass, I responded to Megs’ comment below too. Women should be compassionate in any situation where another woman makes the decision to abort or “selectively reduce”. It is not your place to judge.
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with respect
by publicising ones decisions, one opens themselves to contrary points of view. The women in the story have chosen to do so, and I reserve my right to hold and publicise my contrary view.
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“If that woman had been told “your baby is severely disabled and probably wont make it to term without risking it’s twin or yourself”, I think most women would be compassionate and understand the decision.”
The trouble is, no one knows whether the multiples she’s gestating will become disabled children until after they’re born. Prior to that, all she has to go on are probabilities and risk factors (and the risks are not insubstantial). Higher multiples are inevitably born prematurely, and as we all know premature babies are at high risk of cerebral palsy, blindness, brain bleeds, and developmental disorders, among other things. Many premature infants die. If a woman weighs up the risks and decides to reduce the pregnancy to a singleton, therefore substantially reducing the likelihood of ending up in the NICU, who’s to say she made the wrong choice?
The fact 60 Minutes didn’t discuss some of these issues is unbelievable. They gave the viewer the impression that since all three babies are healthy in the womb, reducing them is simply a matter of convenience.
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We only saw a small snapshot of these women’s lives, so has anyone thought that maybe it was a really hard decision and that she refers to the foetus as “tissue” to help cope with/distance herself from it? I also believe they copped a lot of abuse for their decisions, with one of them being abused by a labour room nurse.
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We do endure a lot of abuse. Here’s a short story about how severe it can get…
I am one of those people that…if you’re my friend, you know everything about me. So, with that, I am very open about my pregnancy with people. My daughter was invited to a birthday party recently for a little boy who’s mom is on the preschool’s board with me. We shopped and shopped for a present for my daughter’s friend…I believe the invite arrived a full two weeks prior to the party. We RSVP’ed appropriately to the party…on the day of the party, we dressed in our best attire (which, involves tutus and tiaras) and headed to this boy’s house. When we rang the doorbell, his mom answered, quickly shut the door behind her and stepped out front. She looked me square in the eye and said this “Jane (names changed here) told me what you did to your poor babies. I don’t want you or your kid anywhere near us. Get the f–k off our property.” Uh…really? When I spoke to Jane, she explained she was telling our story because she admired my strength, and that I am quite open about it…her intent wasn’t one of malice.
In the end, I’ve learned one thing…people are cruel, people judge and people never want to hear the whole story. And, you know what…I don’t want my child around adults who are judgmental and bigots. I’m raising her to embrace differences and love people for those differences.
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I’m not going to get too into this debate because I’d have a lot to say, its a highly emotional subject plus I”m just too tired to deal with it.
But let me just say there are many reasons why you put more than one embryo in at a time. And the decision to do so is often done at an extremely vulnerable, emotional time when you think that hell will just not let you out of it’s grasp.
Reasons for putting in more than one embryo:
*expense
*the possiblitily that this ivf round may be your last due to risks, expense, emotional toll
*having more than one embryo viable but not quality enough to freeze, no WAY are you going to wash it down the sink.
*fresh is best, embryos may not survive the thaw if frozen
*complications. Making eggs can be a very difficult life threatening scenario to some women so going through the process repeatedly is not always an option.
….I”m sure there is more.
Whether you agree with multiple embryo insetion or not,
whether you have exprienced IVF or not,
at least be aware that the decision of how many embryos to insert is not as cut and dried as you think. It’s full of dark shadows, desperate wishes, medical science, statistical data, waves of pain, hormonal fog and time pressures to say the least. It’s never about just whacking a few in and see how we go.
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Well written rudy.
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rudyroo, it sounds like you know what you’re talking about from personal experience. Let me say up front, that I haven’t been through IVF and don’t have any children. However if ” * having more than one embryo viable but not quality enough to freeze, no WAY are you going to wash it down the sink” is a reason to implant multiple embryos, isn’t the embryo ‘taking’, a reason to keep it? If a woman won’t wash an embryo down the sink, why would she then abort the baby it grows into?
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What if you are absolutely desperate for a baby and due to financial issues, this is the last IVF attempt. But, due to the same financial issues you cannot afford to raise 3 babies?
Unless it’s YOUR life and YOUR baby/babies, how can you judge?
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In Australia, there is no reason to say that financial issues are the reason. You may not be able to have the same ‘lifestyle’ you had before, but you will not be out on the street.
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Having gone through the IVF process let me assure you, if you can afford IVF treatment, you could afford to raise three children. You may have to go without some of lifes luxuries but you would be able to cope.
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Thankfully I haven’t been in a situation where aborting a child was something I had to consider.
I”m merely speaking from experience re embryo insertion. People seem to underestimate that situation entirely, to the condemnation of those who have more than one implanted.
But re your question, I’ll take a stab at answering, but cannot speak for the women and men in that situation.
THe most obvious thing that comes to mind is that these people are at a place of loss, overwhelming loss, unimaginable loss. With a slight glimmer of hope on the horizon from the drugs, procedures, needles that IVF offers. So the reality of three babies growing from three embryos is almost impossible to comprehend when for years you have not even been able to keep one alive.
Also, the science is so unpredictable. It may very well be that the two high quality embryos die, whilst it’s the poor quality one that takes. So keeping 1 just because it’s good and throwing out the other is …well just unimaginable to me. What if I throw out the wrong one?
Also, when you are going through the IVF process, you may very well be accepting of the fact that you will take what comes, twins, triplets…once you come out of that phase and into pregnancy, reality hits home.
Just some suggestions. Again, I cannot speak from that position. And I am certainly against judging anyone who has been there.
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I don’t think anyone with ANY knowledge of IVF thinks they get whacked in, Rudy
I certainly hope not. Both my sister and my best friend went through IVF and I am acutely aware of how stressful and difficult it is. I think that forms part of my thinking – why would you endure that and then abort? I just find it hard to find the balance in that. That’s just my view though
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Great post Rudyroo.
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What about ‘non ivf’ conception? This happened to a friend of mine. Ended up pregnant with triplets.
The strain on her body was incredible. She was not allowed to move for the last 6 weeks.
There is also huge financial implications.
And finally, of course, the risk to the health of the babies.
They had to seriously think about foetal reduction. They decided against, but it was not an easy decision
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This is so complicated. There’s the emotional aspect and then there’s some facts that really do play a role in people’s decisions around this (by “people” i mean the mother/partner (if any) involved). When talking about selective reduction in the context of ivf in the US, one – no matter how “wrong” it feels to do so – MUST take into account the cost of an ivf cycle in the US. If you don’t have insurance that covers ivf – and MOST do NOT (and if you do, it is likely minimal) – you are out-of-pocket approximately US$30,000 per cycle. Yep, $30K – out-of-pocket – to get pregnant – covers nothing after that first pregnancy blood test. People take out 2nd mortgages – a lot of people take out 2nd mortgages – take loans out against their 401K (the superannuation equivalent in the US). Granted, frozen cycles – assuming you get enough eggs, they fertilize, grow to blastocysts that meet the criteria for freezing, and thaw adequately, run less – about $5,000. So, when people – in the US – are making the decision as to how many to put in – often they have ONE shot at this…they’ve put a 2nd mortgage on their house and have ONE chance. So they put in more than they are willing to carry – to have ONE (or perhaps 2 when reducing from 3) baby. Others may disagree with this and find it wrong – but it is how it is. And as someone who has personal experience with assisted conception here and in the US, I can tell you – THERE IS A LOT OF ANGUISH – around the decision of how many to put in and then what to do if there are multiples.
Here in Australia, ivf doesn’t cost as much – but it costs more than it used to because of the changes that were made around Medicare rebates for ivf. Finances play a role in this.
My heart breaks for women (and their partners) who have to make these kinds of decisions. They usually have so much heartache behind them (as most IVF-ers do). I cannot get on a soapbox and condemn them, I just can’t. They need support … most of them mourn even though it’s a deliberate decision…both decisions – how many to put in and what to do if “too” successful.
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As someone who has had an abortion (11wks along when i was 16) and have not a doubt in my mind i did the right thing, I was in a bad place for a while last night after seeing that footage. Heartbreaking
(i was actually trying to change the channel but my toddler mustve fiddled with the remote cos it wasnt working!)
It was horrific, but I believe that everyone has a right to choose the life they want for themselves & their children. They are using artificial means of conceiving (so the playing god argument doesnt stack up) and they obviously have yearned & tried for a child for a long time so I don’t believe any woman, especially in their situation, would make this decision lightly, without it weighing on her heart…
I don’t know – it was terrible to see either way.
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I think a lot of people would have outwardly cringed at the sight of that needle. And THAT is exactly what 60 minutes wanted you to do. Throw that in there to be deliberately controversial. How do you think an abortion is undertaken – its not all roses and rainbows either – but throwing that in makes everyone who is pro-choice *gasp* a little and perhaps make you reconsider. ….Well, I for one am pro-choice and while I don’t agree with the mindset of these women, they all made a choice about their bodies. Be it through the IVF process or after. Where do we draw the line to say a woman does not have control over her own body? If the medical/ethical profession regulates the IVF process then that is fine (and I think they should). However, “selective reduction” is a dressed up way of saying “abortion”. And if you are pro-choice, then don’t judge these women. Go fight the IVF process if you wish, but these women are not monsters for deciding that they do not want 2 or 3 babies in their life.
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So true KTT.. Where do we draw the line? I am pro choice in concept, but after having my baby, find it harder to reconcile the reality of abortion… gah, it’s a horrible topic to think about for too long. I need to break for lunch!
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Hi Megs, I too have my little babes. It is difficult to comprehend the difficult and life altering decision that a woman makes when she chooses to have an abortion. I made a choice to bring my babes into my world as I knew (like you) I could love, support, cherish and nourish their little bodies and souls till the day I die. If a woman deeply reflects and accepts that she can not do the same as me then I support her choice to not bring that child into the world. I commend her strength of choice.
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You are so good at articulating your thoughts clearly! That is exactly how I feel and why I’m prochoice (why force a woman to have a child she doesn’t want, so it grows up unloved, uncherished and resented?).
It was the term from the interviewed mother that “it’s only tissue” that really made me upset. As you say, if the mother has deeply reflected and made this choice, that’s one thing, but to consider your fetus “just tissue” seems like denial. A coping mechanism maybe?
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Hi again! I guess that is one of the reasons why I was appalled by the 60 minutes report. The needle and the “just tissue” comment is definitely getting a lot of airplay and media. Which, in my opinion, is clouding over what the real issues were in this report. They were being deliberately over-emotive (such a word?!) to sensationalise an extremely sensitive topic that deserves a lot more respect and reasoned journalism than what they spat out of the TV last night. Put yourself in the woman’s shoes who made that comment last night and think perhaps it was a coping mechanism or perhaps 60 minutes edited the report to make you question your pro-choice stance……Having said all that go give that sweet babe of yours a kiss and be thankful that you may never have to be put in a position that you have to make such a decision.
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Totally! This is all fine to debate online, but in reality it would be a devastating thing to experience, so who are we to judge. It’s actually been good today seeing everyone’s different opinions on this site – has definitely made me rethink my views on a whole range of issues…
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I watched the first 5 minutes before the sensationalist drivel that is Michael Usher’s reporting style got the better of me and I turned it off. It was over-hyped bollacks that again demonised woman for tough choices some woman have to make.
I don’t get those that are saying yep I’m pro-choice but this seems wrong, um abortion is abortion; a foetus is terminated either way. 60 Minutes didn’t show the graphic vacuum that sucks out the unborn foetus when women abort one foetus, would that change your mind? Probably not, which is why last night’s report was extremely dangerous and damaging for woman’s rights.
Do not be sucked into thinking that what they showed last night was a true and honest and NEUTRAL view on selective foetal reduction, because it wasn’t. It is just another way the media is guilting woman to stay passive on the rights to their own bodies.
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Butters, I think we were typing at the same time and on the same wavelength to. Could not agree with you more.
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This. That was an appalling piece of journalism.
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It’s even more heartbreaking to see shows like baby hospital where out of three premmie triplets only one survives, and one of them survived for 16 weeks before passing away from respiratory difficulties.
If that was a realistic scenario for me I can’t say I wouldn’t try and minimise that and just be happy to have one perfectly healthy baby.
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I did watch the “report” on 60 minutes… I was disgusted. There was nothing informative at all. The entire “report” was inflammatory and designed to create a media storm.
I loved that when they showed the two American women who had used the procedure they showed them as career women in the city, yet they showed the Australian lady who did not use the procedure in her chook shed with her kids.. Obviously showing what a far better earth mother or something she is.
Every person has different reasons behind the decisions they make. Who are we to judge? We don’t know them. I completely understand that one of the women stated openly that she could not manage more than one baby. To be honest I seriously don’t think I would manange either… and I say that as a mother of two lovely little girls.
The show did nothing but create anger and give alot of people a platform to spit their opinions at others.
For or against, its no one elses business.
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Exactly how I felt. Certainly not an impartial piece of journalism.
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Exactly, 60 Minutes is a joke and people should not watch it thinking they are watching any news worthy items. Pick up a New Idea you’ll get better journalism in that.
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Totally agree. 60 minutes is f*cking appalling at the best of times but they outdid themselves on this “report”. I watched it after I saw the storm they created thinking it was going to be something worthwhile. I was clearly mistaken.
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You can’t implant 3 embryos in Australia, the upper limit is 2. Even then, the chance of twins is slim. Using 1 embryo will often net you a failure, requiring another invasive round of treatment. Sometimes it seems like people imagine when you get IVF you can choose how many babies you want, and if you feel like twins you should just implant 2 and it will proceed exactly as you plan. In reality, the goal of fertility treatment is one baby, and any more or less than that is considered to be a failure by the doctors.
My problem with the 60 Minutes story was its choice of families. They couldn’t have been more extreme — two of them reduced for “lifestyle” reasons? Really? Can you imagine if they had run a story about abortion in which two of the three women they featured said they aborted for “lifestyle” reasons? People would have gone crazy because the bias in the producers choice would be obvious. I don’t understand why it should be any different for this story. Selective reduction is offered to women expecting multiples because the risk of prematurity, disability, and death are much higher for both them and their unborn offspring, and the chance of a healthy pregnancy is markedly improved if reduced to a singleton, but in this story the medical risks of multiple pregnancy were completely glossed over.
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I’m confused by the two not three comment that a few people have made, were the subjects of the 60 Minutes show not Australian?
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One was Australian, two were American. In the case of the Australian woman, she had two embryos transferred during IVF and one had later split (to form identical twins).
It’s interesting though, because higher order multiples (triplets and above) are more common from other fertility treatments, not IVF. Most of the sextuplets/quintuplets you hear about in America are the result of IUI, and no embryos are transferred in that procedure.
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Very interesting points – both your original comment and the follow up.
Even the choice of the word “Lifestyle” is selected to create a negative connotation, one that has been repeated here by several commentators.
If they’d said “Social economic reasons” followed up by “This was our last roll of the dice and we were desperate, but we’d lose the house if we had three children all at once” then people may have reacted differently.
Childcare costs $76,000 a year in Sydney, if you earn enough to make that possible. Or you can sell your house and lose your job. Or have a selective reduction.
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The ones that terminated their babies were American. One Australian had had triplets she kept, presumably they were two embryos with one splitting naturally.
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As a woman who has had an abortion I couldn’t watch this last night! My abortion wasn’t about me being responsible it was about me freaking out when I realised I (& he) couldn’t handle the responsibility that came with our choice to have sex. I hate that I did it, not regret but I hate what I did!For me to have watched that woman, I think, would have been too much.
I think this goes beyond pro choice or pro life. I think it comes down to that humanness that we all have in us to cringe at things that shock us & make us question things we thought were black & white., I know what was done to my body & I know that I took the life of a child I conceived. I’m not stupid. But the way that this was even promoted make me cry! I have no right to demand any other surgery for “lifestyle”reasons so why is that the case for abortion. If an adult makes the decision to use IVF treatment then isn’t that undertaken with the express knowledge that the outcome could be one or more children? Do the doctors not make this clear when obtaining consent or does IVF not consider the concept of informed consent?
I’m actually confused about this & wonder if we do need to reconsider abortion laws in Australia. I don’t mean repeal them & make it illegal but look at how we perceive this medical procedure. I know that in NSW there is reference to a social need which makes abortion permissible under the law but how far can we really go with this. I will never argue for abortion to be illegal but can we rationalise this unchallenged?
I’m not sure I can.
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“the responsibility that came with our choice to have sex.”
Carrying an unwanted baby to term isn’t a reasonable punishment for having sex.
“I have no right to demand any other surgery for “lifestyle”reasons”
Of course you do. Cosmetic surgery, removal of wisdom teeth that are causing you discomfort, a knee reconstruction due to an old sports injury, having your tonsils out due to recurring tonsillitis, laser surgery to correct your vision, hysterectomy to alleviate endometriosis – these are all considered “elective surgery” ie they aren’t immediately medically necessary, but they alleviate an issue that affects your quality of life.
I’m not comparing one type of surgery to another, but to suggest that abortion is the only procedure you can request based on a “quality of life” issue is patently nonsense.
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Interesting article. My emotional reaction to this was that it feels wrong – and yet I am completely pro-choice for terminating for “life style reasons”. It might not sit well with a person, but this is just a new choice. Can you argue that you can’t choose whether to keep the baby/babies in this context but you can choose if it’s in a non-IVF context?
I don’t want a baby now, yet I choose to risk getting prengant by having (protected) sex, and I would terminate if I got pregnant. If I successfully underwent IVF and couldn’t cope with the prospect of triplets, maybe I would choose to terminate two of the babies. Yes it sits terribly with me, but I think that pro-choice is pro-choice. Either you think the baby has rights, or you don’t. Either the woman can choose not to continue with a pregnancy or she can’t.
Would people feel just as appalled if a woman chose to get pregnant naturally then changed her mind and terminated? Genuine question.
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Being in the thick of this, and having to make the decision as to whether we would have 1 or more embryos implanted, I absolutely agree with everything you have to say Kass. Well done on a great article.
I really can’t understand how a couple could go through the trauma of IVF (and don’t even get me started on how that takes over your whole life!), actually be blessed enough to get pregnant, and then choose to abort one of their babies.
I have to wonder that their motivation is in getting pregnant in the first place – another tick on the list of life’s “to-dos”? something to brag about? another thing to add to the collection of things we thing we’re supposed to own as successful adults?
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Maybe IVF has a lot to answer for… if we all want nature to run its course, inserting multiple fertilised eggs into a uterus certainly isn’t doing that.
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If we wanted nature to run its course, we wouldn’t have vaccines or chemo or pacemakers. Obviously nature needs a bit of help.
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I don’t agree with killing unwanted fetuses under any circumstances but I do think the medical professional should be regulated so that these difficult situations of multiple pregnancies can be avoided. if they don’t implant multiple embryos these situations won’t arise in IVF. I can understand women not fancying being presented with triplets, quadruplets etc but if you don’t want a multiple birth why let doctors implant multiple embryos.
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I am pro-choice but agree with you that if you only want one baby, don’t have multiple embryos implanted.
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I didn’t watcht the TV show – my story is the one linked above – and I don’t really think sonograms of the abortion process is appropriate gossip generating fodder – I’ve seen enough needles into hearts to last a life time (one).
What did you think happen during an abortion? Did it involve kittens?
You put in three fertilised eggs because the survival rate is so low and IVF is so expensive. Anyone who thinks having triplets is the same as having three seperate kids (as the author seems to think) is fooling themselves.
Here’s an idea: make IVF treatment cheaper. But money isn’t as cheap as gossip and condemnation, is it?
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Hey, I had a reply, was it deleted? I’m happy to respond to the points made and it was neither attacking or rude.
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Brilliant reply. THanks for adding some commonsense to the conversation.
Words can’t express how sorry I am that you went through what you did.
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Maybe the unicorns from yesterday’s shopping post….
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I too am pro choice, but no just because more than one doesn’t ‘suit’ at that time. We’re talking about a life/lives not changing your mind over the new car you bought but realise you can’t actually afford it now.
I get there are more risks involved in having multiples, but everytime you get in your car and drive – you risk being in an accident. We should stop choosing this kind of thing and be grateful for the ability to be gifted with any children.
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I am like you Maree and am pro-choice but when I read your comment I thought we are pro-choice and think someone who is pregnant with one child should be able to terminate because technically it doesn’t suit them to have a child right now. I guess I am asking myself (and you by way of responding to you) am I being hypocritical because effectively I think termination should be a matter of choice? I don’t mean it rudely or to question you just thinking outloud. Interesting article.
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I do think it is the individuals right/choice but having just had a baby myself I can’t possibly comprehend terminating or reducing any even if I knew I couldn’t cope. I probably am contradicting myself beside I think if the pregnancy was a result of rape (for eg) or serious medial issue then I personally think that’s ok, just not people who choose to get pregnant then choose to limit the number of babies in that pregnancy.
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Thanks Maree for responding helping me answer myself. It is about intent. When someone does not intend to be pregnant and they are. When someone intends to be pregnant but makes the decision to terminate one or more of the foetuses it seems incongruous with the decision to get pregnant in the first place. Thanks.
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yes! it is intent that I have the issue with
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So I guess you would be OK if you were told you MUST have 3 kids? Women who conceive naturally have a choice as to how many kids they want: some want 1, some want 2 some want 4+ and some women want none. If a woman has one child and then decides she doesn’t want anymore, she takes steps to prevent further pregnancies – utilising science and technology (the pill, vasectomy for partner etc.). Women undergoing IVF should have choice too.
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I’m confused by your comment – sounds like you are trying to say that multiple pregnancies only occur with ivf? Women who fall pregnant naturally can put an order in for what they want?
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I consider myself pro-choice, but that footage had me in tears. Honestly, if you’re choosing to access fertility treatment and choosing to put three embryos into your body, I question the morality of then terminating two of those lives when they ‘take’.
We had our daughter via IVF and were strongly discouraged form putting more than one embryo in (We wouldn’t have anyway).
The success rate may be lower, but I’d rather go through a few extra months of treatments than decide to terminate any of the lives we worked so damn hard to achieve.
I believe in Australia you can’t put more than two in anyway, although I may be wrong.
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Sometimes the eggs split, though. This happened to friends – implanted two embryos and one split. They’re now the happy parents of triplets… not what they were expecting!
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Unfortunately, many people don’t have the time or money to make the choice to take it one cycle at a time.
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Putting 2 embryos back does not increase the chance of pregnancy, just the chance of twins. Our doctor told us there was as much chance falling pregnant whether one was put back or two. Our first transfer was a single, the next 5 were two – surely if it was a higher succes rate we wouldn’t have needed 5 more transfers. For the record we did have twins from that 6th transfer.
Not many doctors will put two back anymore anyway – you really have to fight for it.
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A well written article about a very difficult subject. I’m with you – I’ve always been pro-choice… but this feels like something else altogether doesn’t it? I applaud you for tackling this issue, and I’m so sorry about everything you yourself have been through. Sometimes life is so very, very unfair.
xxx
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thankyou Nic. Appreciated x
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I didn’t watch the episode but discussed it with my mother, who did watch it. I’m pro choice and a mother of three young children (not triplets).
I am so puzzled as to WHY these women allowed cameras and reporters to film something equally shocking and private. And while I’m not naive enough to think this practice doesn’t happen, WHY would you put your face and name to this horrific procedure for the world to judge you?
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I thought the same thing about the woman who let herself be filmed smacking her children. It’s just setting yourself up for critcism.
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Because the reporter would have appeared sympathetic and understanding and supportive right up to the moment he reamed them on national TV for ratings.
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Exactly. I used to be a tabloid journo and I absolutely guaruntee they will have been screwed over royally, poor women. Leading questions, selectives quotes, editing to create a pre-determined narrative, and there will have been an editorial agenda to angle the yarn for maximum controversy, outrage and ratings from the get-go. And that agenda will have been deliberately hidden from the interviewee. Sixty Minutes producers will be gleefully backslapping each other over a job well done, believe me.
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What they didn’t say though is that the more babies carried, the higher the risk of complications with the babies, spontaneous miscarriage etc.
Don’t they limit implantations to two eggs in Australia to avoid this?
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Good point Anonymous.
It’s all too easy to judge another person when you aren’t the one living *their* life, isn’t it.
Kass, I feel sorry for you given your health situation, but have you considered that “lifestyle choices” can also be considered “responsible” choices, too? Sure, some women can manage multiple births (hello Octomom), but that doesn’t all women can, or should even try.
Quite frankly, I don’t think I’d be able to even cope with twins, let alone triplets.
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Excellent point Nicki. Many people condemn Octomom for not opting for selective reduction, yet here many people are criticising these women for making that exact choice. I also think the 60 mins show was simply inflammatory, especially as Michael Usher neglected to highlight the issues women face carrying multiples.
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I personally condemn Octomum for implanting 8 eggs and trying to get famous and rort people through having more babies than she could manage!! I think we can all agree she was extreme in every sense.
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Do you REALLY think Octomom had octuplets simply because of an extreme desire for fame? And, what do you think her fertility specialist was thinking?
The reason I ask is because, as a child-free by choice woman, I think the desire for children sometimes becomes a pathological fixation – like anorexia.
Edited to say child free *by choice*
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And, where where the Dads’ voices in this debate? Why is it that only the Mothers are judged, Kass?
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Nicki, I think she is pathologically addicted to fame and having children is her ticket to it. I think her fertility specialist should be deregistered – completely and utterly irresponsible and clearly unable to make a responsible assessment for himself of his patient. *shakes head*
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I was asking myself that question when watching the story last night Nicki – where are the Dad’s?
The only thing I can come up with is that ultimately whatever Dad thinks doesn’t matter – the procudere isn’t done on this.
And before you accuse me of judging, are you not judging me simply because my opinion is different to yours?
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I totally agree – I have two young kids and find parenting them a daily struggle. I couldn’t cope with any more kids. Perhaps these American women have been around families with kids enough to know that it is HARD WORK and not all cuddles and smiles like parenthood is portrayed in the media. I think these women are realists. I bet many of the people commenting on this subject matter do not want to have three kids themselves and will stop at one or two, so why criticise someone else who doesn’t want three…
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I have 6yo twins from IVF (in Melbourne); there was no option to try for three embryos, two was the limit and they even advise against that. Regulation is much more stringent in Australia than the US. For example, a part of the IVF process is ovarian stimulation. During my stimulation I was sitting around 15 eggs growing in my ovaries. My doctor nearly cancelled, citing over stimulation (very dangerous to the mother’s health, not the safest time to try to send embryos back in). In the US it is common to stimulate to yield 25 eggs.
When my husband and I chose to transfer two embyros, we did so in the knowledge that we might have twins. It is as simple as that.
I do not understand the idea of transferring more and ‘dealing with the problem later’ – and a problem it most certainly is. The risks to mother and babies in a higher order multiple pregnancy are horrific to contemplate and can be life long, which is why they look to selectively reduce. So we kill (yes, kill) a baby or two for the sake of the others. Sounds reasonable, except that they wouldn’t have been there in the first place if all parties were acting responsibly, and no killing would be necessary.
I don’t imagine the decision to terminate any pregnancy for any reason sits well with any mother, pro-choice or pro-life, green or blue. So why deliberately create a situation where you have to choose which of your children lives and who dies? Long after the doctors have moved on, someone is still faced with the consequences of this unnessary decision, forever.
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Well said Katie, I completely agree – it’s the ‘implanting multiple and then selecting to reduce’ which sits so incredibly uncomfortably with me. If you don’t want more than one, you shouldn’t be allowed to implant more than one.
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But would you still have been happy to have triplets or quads if the eggs had split?
U know
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Sorry, cut off.
I know 2 people this has happened to.
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I have no doubt that she would have managed however many children she had with the grace and dignity she conducts herself with on a daily basis
Katie would be the first person to say twins was bloody hard work and not every day was fun but she did it and she did it bloody brilliantly.
(Transparency clause: Katie is my best friend. She has absolutely NO issue with disagreeing with me strongly! We are on the same page on this one but don’t read that as mate sticking up for mate – she wouldn’t back away from giving me both barrels if she wanted to. She is also an amazing mother of 3 including IVF twins and I constantly admire the way she has conducted herself through IVF and now as a Mum. She’s awesome,)
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Again, this response isn’t going to be in order… Kass, my husband was EXTREMELY involved in the process. He was on speaker phone during doctor’s visits (he was away for 15 months), he was reading scholarly papers on triplet statistics, he was speaking directly with the 5 doctors I was consulting with.
His opinion was highly valued, and in fact, when push came to shove…I had to rely on his logic and hormone-free thinking to decide what to reduce to.
I asked him to read your comment regarding the husbands and his response was: this lady is making an awful lot of assumptions.
He has no interest in discussing this with the media. I was APPROACHED to do this interview and after some soul searching and a developed trust with the producer, I decided to do it.
Again, please don’t be so dismissive of the decision making process. Some women might not opt to involve their partners, however, that isn’t how it works in most households faced with this dilemma.
My husband is my best friend, my hero and my biggest fan. Despite the distance between us, we were still a team during this difficult time.
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