My dream: sleeping baby + cupcake
I’ve never had a baby who slept through the night. Not spontaneously. Not even close. Not without help.
And for me, that help came in the form of my beloved Sleep Whisperer. I wrote about Elizabeth Sloane and what happened when she came to give our family “the gift of sleep” as she calls it here – and boy, was it the best gift I’d ever received. The gift that keeps on giving. And giving. Every. Single. Night. Ever since she first came four and a half years ago.
When I was in hospital having just given birth to Remy two years ago, I texted her: “It’s a boy! Book me in 6 months from today!” And she did. I receive at least one email per week from desperate, sleep-deprived mothers who remember reading about the Sleep Whisperer in my book, begging me for her number.
So I thought I’d do an interview with her for Mamamia. We sat down on my floor (I DO like being on the floor…) a couple of weeks ago and had a big chat about sleeeeep, controlled crying, the effect of sleep deprivation on new mothers and why we seem to have turned sleep into an industry.
(we also discovered we were wearing the same bras under our t-shirts but I digress….)
We chatted for almost half an hour and I tried to edit it but then I realised that if you’re interested in this topic, you will happily sit for 17 hours and gobble up every morsel of information about sleep and how to get more of it. So I kind of just left it. It certainly covers all the bases and at the end, it says how you can be in touch with Elizabeth direct.
Even if this isn’t relevant to you right now, please share it with your friends who have babies…..sleep deprivation can be a horribly lonely experience and it’s vital to know you’re not alone.
Without further ado…..
The other reason I was prompted to interview Elizabeth was this bit of research that was released a few weeks ago. ABC reports in part:
“Paediatrician Harriet Hiscock from The Murdoch Children’s Research Institute was part of a world-first study that followed up 225 six-year-old children who had received behavioural sleep intervention as babies to assess their health including emotional wellbeing, behaviour and child-parent relationship. The study showed intervention during infancy significantly reduced sleep problems in children and depression among mothers during the first two years of the child’s life.
It found techniques including ‘controlled crying’ – which helps babies learn to put themselves to sleep by letting them cry for set periods of time – and positive bedtime routines, had no adverse affects on the emotional and behavioural development of children or their relationship with parents when compared to children who as babies had sleep problems but received no sleep intervention.
The study helps to reassure parents and health professionals about the safety of sleep interventions in infants aged six months and older, especially as a strategy to prevent and treat postnatal depression. Parents can feel reassured they are not harming their babies by using sleep interventions like controlled crying.”
I know this can be a huge area of contention for parents – the whole idea of sleep training or controlled crying or whatever you want to call it. Elizabeth and I will both get amongst the comments as much as we can over the next few days.
What did you do with your baby? Any sleep tips for your fellow readers?
To start your family sleeping, click here to download your copy of The Gift of Sleep now.
Comments
313 Comments so far
I have a shocking confession to make: I used controlled crying on my son at ten weeks of age. In my defence, my mothercraft nurse told me to- I was living in Scotland at the time and you simply don’ty say no to a mothercraft nurse. I also knew no better (that I should wait to 6 months), and I was also desperate. My son was getting me up twice a night to feed and I was utterly, utterly exhausted- no doubt exacerbated by a major medical complication during his birth that put me in the ICU for a week, during which I received 13 blood transfusions. My mothercraft nurse took one look at him at his 10 week check up, told me he was “quite big enough” to sleep through the night (he was well over 10 lb, which apparently is a cut off they use), that he was just in a habit and that I had to just go in and pat him until he went back to sleep when he woke, but not pick him up or feed him. Amazingly, in TWO NIGHTS he had broken the habit- which the nurse said confirmed it really was just a habit and not genuine hunger- and from that day on slept 12 hours a night straight.
I am NOT saying everyone should try this, especially at that young age or without the advice of a health professional. I may have just been lucky (though the same technique worked just as quickly on my daughter at 14 weeks of age). All I’m saying is that I do think there is a place for appropriate sleep training and I do also think that it can potentially make a huge difference to the mother/family. I’m quite sure I was sliding towards PND at the time I tried it, but that getting a full night’s sleep- which also helped me recover from my illness- made a HUGE difference.
Good luck to all the new mums here- I still remember how awful sleep deprivation feels.
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I did ¨save my sleep¨. It is a bit milder then controlled crying and is based around having a routine from birth. It involved alot of expressing in the first few weeks to build up milk supply so you can keep the routine. This really worked for me and I ended up with a good stash of frozen milk when I returned to work.
I took the book to hospital with me with baby number 2 and we always had good sleep. If you feed them, change them and put them to sleep before they know they are even tired you have one happy baby.
It may help my husband and I are calm people- the kids may have just been quiet genetically and it had nothing to do with routine.?????? who really knows?
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Great interview Mia and Elizabeth, thank you.
I have a question for Elizabeth… I understand your points made in the beginning of the interview about doing a sleep program after 6 months of age (bub not needing to feed during night, starting on solids etc)… but are the any other fundamental reasons why you don’t start sleep programs from an earlier age?
I would have thought that by 6 months, many sleep patterns/habits/issues are already fairly established and if these habits are bad ones, wouldn’t it take much longer to correct them? What do you, personally think of starting a sleep program from the beginning?
I’m such a wuss and always feel scared to comment here on posts about anything to do with parenting… so, for the record, I’m not a mum who doesn’t think that newborns and infants require lots of cuddling and attention – in fact, those cuddles are/were the highlights for me.
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hi cordeline,
ta for question…think main reason apart from ones I mention with Mia is that most peaditricians beleive that bubs wake pre 6 months to feed resettle etc…think 5 mths also okay……best of luck.. Elizabeth
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Don’t be scared…me too first time user….think starting programme to early runs risk of mix signal as bubs meant to wake feed and resettle,,,,unlike sleep programme they have to self settle each wake…e.g. how do they know which wake is a bottle or which wake is to self settle. making sense..Umm
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Thanks ladies for your replies. I understand your points about younger babies waking for feeds. But I guess where I am coming from is, there are babies are most definitely fed, and yet keep waking. They are not waking up because they are hungry and I wondered about Elizabeth’s view on teaching them to self settle.
I have 2 kids and taught them both from very young age to self-settle (with the help of a useful book! and no real ‘controlled crying’). I have so many friends though who I see struggling and not coping with sleep issues and they get conflicting advice from all corners of the globe. I’m so wary of not suggesting anything to them and have only ever told them what we did with our kids when they have asked.
Hopefully Elizabeth will have time to tell us her views on why she doesn’t teach younger babies to sleep. This area of parenting is just interesting to me, especially, as I said, it (very luckily) worked out well for us, but not so with many friends who are struggling with life so much because of it.
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HI, 2 Comments posted above is me..whoops…still getting used to all this..
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I started routines when my children were a few weeks old, never used controlled crying….
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Same here… never used controlled crying but set up routine from the start. It has been the best thing for everyone in our family
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My first (now nearly 4) was always a good sleeper/self settler from 7 weeks old… we put her to sleep, she made some noise for a few minutes and slept from 7 til 6 each night. Around the age of 2 (when she moved to a bed) things got worse. She would wake 2-3 times a night for a sip of water (that she would only let me administer) but now, she has her own water bottle she can have if she wants and she ocassionally wakes up to go to the loo in the night. (Now that she is older and completely toilet trained, she gets to move up the reward chart if she doesn’t wake up & that seems to be working).
My second bub (now 13mths) was an awful sleeper. Mia, she too had a dummy addiction and a self settling problem. Up until she was 8 mths old, she needed to be rocked to sleep and would wake every 2-3 hours for either a feed (which I know she didn’t need) or a dummy replace. Crazy. As ELizabeth has said, it affected our relationship and the compounded sleep deprivation was awful. Every night, I would say, I’m calling Trissilan etc and of course, I didn’t, thinking it would eventually get better the next night.
About 2 mths ago, we sent the older one to my parents for the weekend and went cold turkey on the dummy. It took 3 grizzly nights for her to forget about it but now she sleeps from 7 til 6am without stirring. HOORAY!!!
We are new people. Seriously. I have new energy & feel like I can take on anything! Hit me!
I believe we created our own monster b/c I was so worried about the baby waking her sister that we rushed upon her everytime she squalked (they share a room).
Elizabeth, you are very wise and what you do is wonderful. I should have called you months ago!!! And I highly recommend anyone with non sleeping babies to make the call cos once you are getting consecutive nights of sleep, the world is a much friendlier place
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Thank you so much Mia and Elizabeth. I have a 2.5 year old and 5 month old. Eldest is now a good sleeper at night, and 5 month old is still waking for 2 sleeps or so. I am using the dummy but would love to ditch it and let him soothe himself. Would definitely love more information. I know in person is so much better, but not being in Sydney, is there somewhere we can go to get the info?
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If you live in Melbourne I know a wonderful lady who helped us 2 years ago. She was a lifesaver and I have recommended her to many other parents. From about 6 months our little girl stopped sleeping through and started waking up for feeds first once, then twice… By the time we saw Tracy she was 10 months old and I think she was waking up about 6 times. I was beside myself, too tired to stop breastfeeding, too tired to think… and I managed to put around 10kgs in that period (that I still haven’t managed to lose doh).
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I have coslept with all 4, including my 2 little ones who are less than 2 years apart, and love it. I would do it over if I had to, I don’t feel comfortable with controlled crying, goes against all my mama instincts
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We’ve always co slept, and I’ve breast fed all my babies on demand….this has been the best combination for us – everyone sleeps, the babies actually feed while I’m still asleep sometimes, and I just think why not make the most of this time with them when they are snuggly and small.
Our twins are 10 months old and are in bed with us at the moment, our older three have all done the same until they were around two. It’s not been an issue getting them into their own beds at two, and I honestly feel that these years that they are small will be looked upon as the best time of my life. I know this approach isn’t for everyone, but for us it’s been a really amazing and beautiful time of our lives, I guess we just did what felt right from the beginning when we were young and crazy when our eldest was born, we found our groove as parents and just stuck with what we know is right for us and our family.
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I felt so much pressure as a first time mother not to use techniques like controlled crying to teach my gorgeous boy to sleep. I had always believed these techniques to be cruel (with the all the wisdom about parenthood that you have before actually having a baby) and many of my friends follow attachment parenting practices that work for them and i felt i should be doing the same. Unfortunately this just didn’t work for us. At the worst stage, my son didn’t sleep at all during the day and woke every 45 minutes at night. I was starting to lose my mind and my confidence as a mum and my boy was tired all the time. My own mum finally intervened and suggested i contact Tweddle in VIC and it was hands down the best decision i’ve made so far as a mum. I followed the techniques for babies in their book ‘SleepR Right, Sleep Tight’. Before using these techniques,I’d had so many misconceptions about controlled crying, that you leave babies to cry for hours at a time, that you don’t respond to their needs, etc but this just isn’t the case. It was hard for me to put aside my previous beliefs and to face judgement from myself and others about trying contolled crying but in the end the techniques changed our family life and our son now loves his sleep and we all enjoy the time we have together so much more as we are all well rested. My advice for sleep deprived mums is not to be afraid to try these techniques , they are not harmful to babies if done correctly and you still nurture and respond to your baby, the only difference is they learn the skill of going to sleep!
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It’s good to remember as well that children are different and some need more sleep than others. I tried valiantly with my first child to get her to sleep the number of hours the baby books said she needed. After a few months I realised that she just wasn’t tired. Once I worked that out, it was all much easier. The second child however slept a lot. Probably whatever the normal amount is. She still does sleep a lot – at least a few hours more a day than her sister.
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They all seem to have a different internal clock. My 4th goes to bed by 8 and can sometimes still be heard singing or jumping around in her room at 10. She is 7 and with all my knowledge, bar sedating her at bedtime I can’t force her to sleep. All we can do is put her in her room.
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The timing of this article is perfect! Just started sleep training my 9 month year old and am regularly torturing myself about it and feeling very alone. Tried everything else first and no dice so here I am. I like the idea of giving her the gift of sleep because although she is a little cheerful trouper she has been sleep deprived most of her little life and her mother has spent much of that time down in the dumps (now I’m talking in the third person!). She just woke in a delightful mood after a nearly 90 minute nap (usually 35mins) and she still feels comforted and loved by me I’m sure. Next time I will do things differently and give my baby more opportunities to self settle early on.
Many of us start out with an ideal that often doesn’t pan out and we are terrifically hard on ourselves about it. The truth is I’m guessing most of the babies represented on this site are very loved and very happy….whether their mums sleep train or not.
Thanks Mia.
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My kids were all so different. First one was shocking, crying all the time, waking half an hour after being put to bed after a feed etc. Nightmare. We made it to 8 months and then went baby bootcamp on him. We control cried him. First night 2 1/2 hours of crying and then he slept the whole night, second night 1 hr of crying then he slept the whole night, from that point on he went to sleep & slept through to 4:30am – 5am in the morning for about 2 yrs or more (that sucked also because I don’t live for the mornings, but we were getting sleeeeeeep!!). My son is also very linear, he loves routine and rules & schedules, so I think the training was what he needed. My second baby was like a little yogi. She slept in 6 hour blocks during the day and slept through at night, having maybe one feed. Didn’t need to worry about her. Both first & second slept in their cots happily. Third bub, baby of the fam, slept on top of me most of the first few months, fed every 3 hours and slept in our bed. She is a huge cuddle pot and loves constant contact. She is 3 now and sleeps in her cot, but I had her in my bed for probs 1.5 yrs cos I was so exhausted and she just loved it and we all got sleep.
I think my motto is “SURVIVE AT ALL COSTS”; if you have to crank up the training do it, if bubs personality is more attachment parenting, do it. And do what you can to have a night away from the horror every so often, you need to refill your own tank with space and peace.
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Elizabeth never really explained what she actually does during those 3 nights. Please Mia – can we have a Part 3 to this interview????!!!!!
(I’ve been to Tresillian residential, they were fantastic, but at 10 months my twins are having a bit of a relapse and I’m still go in during the night from time to time to do the, shh shh, pat pat, thing – Elizabeth seems to be saying not to do this I think, but she also says that she goes in so what does she do in there????)
p.s. Good on you for posting this interview Mia – it really is inhumane how so many women struggle for so long without help on all of this stuff. It should be easier to get this information and to find these sleep whisperers, or to get a referral to Karitane/Tresillian etc, but its not. It took me 2 months to get into Tresillian with twins and by the time I got there, I was a complete wreck. (The first night there they let you sleep all night while they do the settling – it was the best night of my life I reckon!!!)
p.p.s. for any other Mums struggling and needing help straight away, I recommend the Tresillian helplines. 02 9787 0855 or 1800 637 357. They have Mothercraft nurses to answer any questions you have. Much nicer talking to a real person than thumbing your way through those baby books trying in a frenzy trying to find the answers to your problems.
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I was waiting to hear about what Elizabeth does too
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I am just coming out of a very trying period with a 2 year old and a 8 month old and have shed tears over this interview. HAPPY tears! It is so nice to hear a calm, positive, non judgemental reminder that we can be too hard on ourselves and being practical is in the best interests of the family unit.
Number 2 is a dummy baby and I have been resisting weaning him as I am dreading the consequences of yet more lost sleep. It is good to be reminded that the gift of sleep is far more powerful. I was much stronger with my first child and am amazed, how you correctly said, at how debilitating sleep deprivation is. I don’t like who I am at the moment – lets hope some sleep will change that.
THANK YOU
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As the mother of an 8 month old that doesn’t sleep through the night, I was desperate to hear what Elizabeth would have to say. I’m on the fence about “sleep training” – I have this underlying guilt that it’s something done for my sake more than my daughter’s, but I lust, I fantasize, about a full night’s sleep. So I sat glued to my computer. And here’s what bugs me: she wouldn’t talk about the crying! As Mia eventually brings up, we seem to have developed a fear of letting babies cry at all, so we intervene, creating “manual” sleep associations that turn into big problems. Yet even the “baby whisper” doesn’t seem to be able to say, “the baby might cry for X amount of time”. It’s euphemisms like “grizzle”, or “protest” – “the gift of sleep” is the biggest one of all. I really wanted to hear what kind of crying she was happy to ignore, how long it took for babies to “peak”, to address horror stories like babies vomiting because they are so “grizzly”, all the talk that creates fear and guilt about sleep training.
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I guess everyone’s experience is difference, so I can only tell mine.
My little guy was rocked to sleep for many months, and we quite liked it, saw it as a special time, and he was able to resettle during the night unless he was hungry. Once we tried controlled crying (as it was called then), but he screamed horrendously, and we let it go, and really, I wasn’t that unhappy with the whole routine, I got enough sleep overall to avoid being crazy.
But then at about eight months, he began waking every hour, and needing to be cuddled back to sleep. That was clearly unsustainable, for me anyway. So we did a method that came out of some uni study in Adelaide, where we put him down, and then went in after 1 min of crying, then left, then went in after two mins of crying, and gradually eked it out to five minutes.
But really, it was like magic – in forty mins he was asleep! He cried pretty hard a few times, but it was only ever for short bursts, before he was comforted again. I suspect it might have just been the right time for him – he must have wanted the sleep too, I guess!
But I really couldn’t believe it, hubby had revved himself up for 24 hrs of no sleep, and the whole thing was done in 40 mins. Second night, 20 mins.
After that, he was great. We had to re-do the controlled crying every time he got sick, or bad teething, but it was generally only the 20 mins.
I might add that the forty mins on the first night were amongst the worst of my life. But it was so worth it because he was just such a happy child the rest of the time, good sleep is great for them, as well as mum and dad.
He’s a good sleeper now, but I must say I’ve never been strict about it, if he is sick he still sleeps with me, and he’s five. But as soon as he is well again, back to his own room!
I hope this helps, I doubt everyone is the same, but we certainly had vigorous crying, but it did help overall.
And thanks Mia too for discussing this.
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Hi Luc & Ladybird,
We used this technique for our older child as well. Going in at longer intervals, 2 mins, 4 mins, 6 mins etc up to 20 mins. Don’t pick bub up but you may pat him, tell him you love him and firmly say, ‘good night X,’ The same words everytime so they associate the words with sleep.
You are best to do something else with the time (rather than standing at the door listening) as those minutes of noise will feel like hours!!! Go and make a cup of tea, watch TV, put headphones in. Whatever it takes… But don’t go to back to bed til they are asleep. It took us 3-4 nights to get it right (but the first one was the worst)
Good luck!!!
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We did this technique too and it took 3 nights. The first night was well over 2 hours of screeching…and I mean screeching before he exhausted himself. Second night was an hour. Third night was 40 minutes. He’s still not the greatest sleeper but unless he’s sick we don’t have wake ups ever hour like we did for months on end. We used the Sheyne Rowley book as a guide and I liked it cos it helped with so many other techniques.
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Elizabeth helped LOADS of my friends with their kids! THEY ARE ALL OBSESSED WITH HER! Thank gooooooooodness I didn’t need to call her as Bubba slept through at 10 weeks…..
WILL BE DEFINITELY calling her in the future IF I need to…..but as LOVELY as she is, I realllllllly hope I don’t have to!!
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Love Elizabeth. So sensible! I think the nail was hit well and truly on the head in the last couple of minutes… Sometimes we do hover and overanalyse babies instead of meeting all their needs and letting them work some of it out (like sleep) for themselves. I think the little rotters move the goalposts with their eating and sleeping and general behaviour so much in the first couple of years that it’s difficult to stay ahead of the game, but we have even less chance of adapting to the month to month changes if we aren’t getting enough sleep ourselves.
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My girls are both pretty good sleepers BUT I will say it wasn’t by luck. I read up on lots of stuff by people like Elizabeth when I had my first and was consistent in what I did.
For me the key was to get them to self-settle. Once my babies learnt how to go to sleep by themselves everything gradually fell into place in the night. I’m not anti-dummy but I just decided I didn’t want to use them with my kids and that helped as well.
I do think parents have to be realistic about it though. You can’t expect a baby to be sleeping through the night within the first couple of months. Don’t set your expectations too high and accept the fact that yes you will have to get up to feed in the night in the first few months (although not 6 or 7 times like Mia!).
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I so desparately need to hear this but the sound on Part 2 isn’t working! Please fix!!
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What a brilliant video! Had this been on here 6-8 weeks ago I would of hired Elizabeth as a permanent fixture in this house!
We are all so lucky to have such wonderful resources out their we can call on…. sleep is worth every cent!
Thanks Mia!
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My eldest started sleeping through the night at about 2.5 years. She is still a terrible sleeper.
My youngest was sleeping 14 hours straight from 11 weeks. I take no credit for this, it is just who she is. At 4 she will often ASK to go to bed of a night, usually at about 6.15pm.
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I am 31 weeks pregnant so I am very interested in this topic.
This will be my third child and whilst both my other children weren’t terrible sleepers they didn’t sleep through until about the 8 to 10 months mark.
My problem now is my 3.5 year old. As she has gotten older her settling and sleeping is much worse than when she was 1.
I am really starting to get worried as I am severly sleep deprived at the moment with a combination of her waking up constantly throughout the night plus having a lot of trouble with being able to sleep due to pregnancy. Not good to start off sleep deprived before the new baby even arrives.
How do I get in contact with Elizabeth???
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HI JOSIE, am happy to have a chat or email me giftofsleep@gmail.com.au. mobile 0413419219. all the best, eliz
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josie, not sure if you will see this…but think you eailed me and acidentally de;eted details..Whooops…sorry…make contace again
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My boys are good sleepers. The eldest – now 12 – was a put in the cot and straight to sleep. He was in his own cot in his own room from 5 days old. I didn’t use a bassinette and he only came into my room in the middle of the night for a feed and then straight back to bed. He had his cuddles and (yes as a 12 year old) will still come in around 6ish when hubby leaves for work for his morning cuddle and snooze.
My youngest – almost one – is much the same. He was a little fussy when he was little (ahem, he is only one) but that was more for day time sleeps. He now mostly sleeps through the night, from 7 until anywhere from 4am when he still has a bottle and then its straight back to sleep. His day time sleeps are good too… but will only do so in his cot or carseat which can be a bit problematic. I feel he is a nosey child who thinks he’ll miss out on something when in the pram.
I’m currently pregnant with #3, so who knows what’s in store for me.
The first three months were hard and very sleep deprived, but in hindsight, he is learning to adjust to life outside the womb so it makes sense.
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I would be the last person anyone asked for tips on how to get babies to sleep. I will say, smugly, that mine all sleep through the night now (& then I will quietly add that they are 5,7 & 9).
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I love having my babies in my bed. My now 3yo slept with us till he was about 2.5 and now is happily in his own bed and room and only comes back in for cuddles every morning at 7am. The only time I was sleep deprived was in the first few weeks when I persisted in trying to get him to sleep alone in his cot, spent hours settling rocking etc. As soon as I let him stay in my bed we both slept almost all night, he fed quickly in bed during the night and we would both go straight back to sleep. Now I have a 3 week old and am doing the same thing and we are both getting great sleep and doing great. I love waking up with him tucked in my arm and love at 7am when my 3yo joins us. Im sure I will look back at these times when they are grown up as the happiest of my life. Sometimes you have to trust your own instinct.
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Mine all slept in my bed, demand fed and so on, and I will never regret it for a second, but I was demented with sleep deprivation. Maybe because I had them close together, but I didn’t get a full nights sleep for years and years. Like I said, no regrets and most of it was lovely, but it isn’t always the key to blissful sleep. Glad it was for you though.
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My baby was a great sleeper until she was 9 mths, then refused to sleep in her cot, so would end up in with us. After 3 mths of this we were so over it, so we “camped out” in her room for a fews days. Basically we put a chair and a mattress in her room, and if she cried we would sit in her room and cuddle her back to sleep, then put her down and lie next to her. We kept doing this whenever she woke during the night, until she eventually realised that we were not letting her out of the room, so she went to sleep. That was 3 weeks ago, and she is sleeping through again more often than not. We still sometimes have to do the whole routine again, but for the most part it is good. Our rule now is she is not allowed in our bed before 5am.
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I don’t have a baby, Mia, but I do early shift, and have to wake up at 3.30am. My boyfriend is like a baby, bloody waking me up constantly through the night, coming to bed late and then last night he kept stealing the blankets! I know first hand how sleep deprivation can send you insane..
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hahaha!
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Girly – maybe you need Elizabeth to come and fix him…..;)
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AHHHHH…No Thanks… MIA..XXXX
ELIZABETH
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LOL sounds good!
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