My dream: sleeping baby + cupcake
I’ve never had a baby who slept through the night. Not spontaneously. Not even close. Not without help.
And for me, that help came in the form of my beloved Sleep Whisperer. I wrote about Elizabeth Sloane and what happened when she came to give our family “the gift of sleep” as she calls it here – and boy, was it the best gift I’d ever received. The gift that keeps on giving. And giving. Every. Single. Night. Ever since she first came four and a half years ago.
When I was in hospital having just given birth to Remy two years ago, I texted her: “It’s a boy! Book me in 6 months from today!” And she did. I receive at least one email per week from desperate, sleep-deprived mothers who remember reading about the Sleep Whisperer in my book, begging me for her number.
So I thought I’d do an interview with her for Mamamia. We sat down on my floor (I DO like being on the floor…) a couple of weeks ago and had a big chat about sleeeeep, controlled crying, the effect of sleep deprivation on new mothers and why we seem to have turned sleep into an industry.
(we also discovered we were wearing the same bras under our t-shirts but I digress….)
We chatted for almost half an hour and I tried to edit it but then I realised that if you’re interested in this topic, you will happily sit for 17 hours and gobble up every morsel of information about sleep and how to get more of it. So I kind of just left it. It certainly covers all the bases and at the end, it says how you can be in touch with Elizabeth direct.
Even if this isn’t relevant to you right now, please share it with your friends who have babies…..sleep deprivation can be a horribly lonely experience and it’s vital to know you’re not alone.
Without further ado…..
The other reason I was prompted to interview Elizabeth was this bit of research that was released a few weeks ago. ABC reports in part:
“Paediatrician Harriet Hiscock from The Murdoch Children’s Research Institute was part of a world-first study that followed up 225 six-year-old children who had received behavioural sleep intervention as babies to assess their health including emotional wellbeing, behaviour and child-parent relationship. The study showed intervention during infancy significantly reduced sleep problems in children and depression among mothers during the first two years of the child’s life.
It found techniques including ‘controlled crying’ – which helps babies learn to put themselves to sleep by letting them cry for set periods of time – and positive bedtime routines, had no adverse affects on the emotional and behavioural development of children or their relationship with parents when compared to children who as babies had sleep problems but received no sleep intervention.
The study helps to reassure parents and health professionals about the safety of sleep interventions in infants aged six months and older, especially as a strategy to prevent and treat postnatal depression. Parents can feel reassured they are not harming their babies by using sleep interventions like controlled crying.”
I know this can be a huge area of contention for parents – the whole idea of sleep training or controlled crying or whatever you want to call it. Elizabeth and I will both get amongst the comments as much as we can over the next few days.
What did you do with your baby? Any sleep tips for your fellow readers?
To start your family sleeping, click here to download your copy of The Gift of Sleep now.
Comments
313 Comments so far
DUqzzc Im thankful for the blog.Really looking forward to read more. Great.
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jzZew3 Appreciate you sharing, great blog article. Keep writing.
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Please read ‘The Science of Parenting’ by Margot Sunderland, Director of Education and Training, Centre for Child Mental Health, London.
Sunderland incorporates the “ground-breaking research of Professor Jaak Panksepp, who has been studying the emotional brain in the US for more than 30 years. His findings are not only significant within the world of neuroscience but also have major implications for humankind. His work, and that of others, explains why so many children grow up to be adults who suffer from depression, anxiety, or problems with anger.” Jaak Panksepp, Ph.d. is the Bailey Endowed Chair of Animal Well-Bring Science, Washington State University; Head of Affective Neuroscience Research, Chicago Institute for Neurosurgery and Neuroresearch, Illinois.
Margot Sunderland writes, “A baby who is trained out of his instinct to cry on being separated from a parent should never be mistaken for being in a state of calm. His stress levels will have gone up, not down. Studies show that after begin left to cry, babies move into a primitive defense mode. This results in an irregularity in breathing and heart rate, both of which can fluctuate wildly, and high levels of cortisol.. Without your help, your baby cannot bring his stress hormone levels down to base rate, or adjust his bodily arousal states, or change his brain chemistry so that relaxing oxytocin and opioids flood in. To make these things happen, your baby needs you next to him, soothing him and regulating his immature brain and body systems.”
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I believe at the end of the day, the child has to know you need to spend quality time with him, which mean he / she is not crying out for nothing except just to test the boundries or get your attention!
If he / she needs attention, encourage him / her to say slowly rather than crying and screeming!
Both husband and wife have to agree on the principal!
Even one do not agree with the other at the moment, he / she must not disagree in front of the child, but talk about it later.
My friend told me this is what happen at his place (They do not live with their parent – (Trust me this is the best – As I am so unhappy about this!))
”
I told my children, we are not spending quality time together because you keep crying for nothing. You have your toys and we have had our stories and play time, and there are 3 of you, now it is your bed time!
Bed time means “We will see you the next morning at 07:00. Good night and sleep well!”
”
I agreed with him totally, but it is so hard when you know you are right and others to not agree with you!
I always believe we, being the parent know what is the best for our children!
We are not here to trial and error, because children is not guinie pigs or white mouse in the lab, that we can say:
“Ops! We stuff up! Let’s try the next one or start again!”
That’s why I insist teach him/ her the first time and teach well!
Most importantly some quality time between the two loving couple, too.
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The number one feeling I have reading these comments is guilt! Guilt that I’ve failed my child by not using controlled crying, guilt for rocking & feeding through the day & night. Feeling like if I was tough enough my child would be well rested. But he is well rested, and yes I’m tired but thankfully I can be a stay at home mum and can stay home in my pjs if I need a break. I’m happy that everyone has there own ways & means to get through the night but it doesn’t mean that those who follow a different format are failing or depriving there children (of either the “gift” of self settling for cc or “affection” for the attachment parents)
The best thing that helps me is that I’ve done this before (twice!)
Yes the first year is tough, my back hurts from rocking day & night but I can look at my 2 older children (4yrs & 2yrs) and know that THIS TOO SHALL PASS.
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I have two sons. My first son had heart surgery after he was born, l co slept with him because l was absolutely exhausted. He was a difficult feeder and the emotional stress probably contributed to my fatigue. However, during the day I had a great routine with him. My second son was exactly the same routine. He slept mostly through the night, but when he moved into a bed, starting coming to sleep with us. I think every child is different. I am firm with their routine during the day, and winding them down at night. I also think some kids are better sleepers than others.
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Sorry I dont have words of wisdom for everyone – but would love some tips myself. Day sleep is our problems – nights are pretty good.
My 1 year old can stay up for 12 hours and refuses to sleep during the day. He is pretty good overnight, sleeping from 7.30 til between 4-6am, but during the day is a completely different story. If he has a 45 min nap during the day it is a good day. I struggle to get anything done and end up spending the the night catching up, hence cutting into my sleep. Any tips? I put him down for a sleep once to twice a day (despite the fact that half the time we dont get any sleep) but he just wont give up and if he does he doesnt sleep longer then 45 min (even at childcare). Any tips? I know day sleep makes night sleep better too..
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Not necessarily. My 2.5 year old is highly resistant to a day nap, unlike many other children her age. And yes, I know if she were in day care, she would be expected to take a nap.
My (wonderful!) MIL, who has raised four children, tells me each of her children dropped their day time nap at a different age, and the easiest thing was to go with it, and accept those days were over. However, you can still require your child to have a ‘quiet time’ for an hour or so in the afternoon – a time that is spent quietly, in a relatively sedentary activity (playing with blocks, reading, etc.) with you around, but not requiring constant interaction and conversation. My dream is that one day (perhaps soon), I coud sit with my toddler in the living room, reading one of my books while she plays something in the same room, peacefully. The aim being companionship, but giving each other a bit of a break. For anything from 30min to an hour.
My advice would be to watch your baby, and learn from him. If missing that day time nap seems to consistently cause grumpiness and over-tiredness, then by all means, be strict about taking it.
But if being forced to sleep means he then resists going down at night, perhaps his nap has relieved his tiredness – tiredness that is an *asset* in the evening before bedtime. If this is the case, then IMO, keep him up! But do get some quiet time into your day, for both your sake and his. As he grows, this can be one aspect of learning to consider others’ needs and feelings! (i.e. your need for some peace / a break)
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While there are a lot of great ideas and it’s great to discuss I am disheartened to see a few mums who have had success with routines plowing into their friends who have not had success (or haven’t tried) with such an air of superiority. I tried routines, books, expert home visits and nothing worked for my daughter. Friends and family would tell me ‘I just wasn’t being tough enough’. So I would cry, again lonely, frustrated and feeling unfairly judged. When pregnant with my second child I took my daughter to a sleep specialist, to the amusement and derision of my “hard working routine” friends. My daughter had a sleep disorder that no amount of routine or tough love could cure. So maybe if you’ve done well, being so well rested you could reach out to that struggling friend, offer her an ear and encourage her to get some help. Sometimes you Are just lucky, or unlucky as the case may be. And if you’ve tried everything, get a referral from your GP to a sleep specialist!
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I am certainly in favour of sleep routines and controlled, consistent care. Just be careful there is not a more serious underlying reason for the waking.
My second baby was till waking once or twice a night recently at 13 months of age but my gut instinct (excuse the pun) was that it was stomach pain. He has a lot of dietary intolerances which are being monitored by the RPAH Allergy Clinic.
After two weeks on a new program of zinc/magnesium supplementation (under another doctor’s supervision) to help with strengthening his digestive juices, bingo! He started sleeping through consistently.
I hate to imagine leaving him to cry for all those months when there was an actual problem. Yes, he’s an extreme case but there are many babies who would be somewhere on the allergic/intolerant scale and their parents not know it.
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There IS a way to get babies to sleep through WITHOUT leaving them to cry, which is something I have never wanted to do and just don’t agree with. We found a brief one-page article on ‘controlled comforting’ and used this as the basis to get our three kids to sleep through. With my first it took only three nights (and she had been waking every single hour for five months). With my second it took a week and with my third it took five days. The trick was that my husband had to do it all because they were all used to waking and being fed by me. Him doing it meant they knew straight away that a feed was out of the question.
We started by explaining before the first night began that they were old enough to learn how to sleep through now and we knew they could do it. I think people underestimate how much babies can understand. Then when they cried my husband went in every time. We never left them to cry. However, he didn’t pick them up out of the cot or rock them. Instead he kept talking to them, letting them know they they could go to sleep themselves. He did pat and stroke them to offer comfort at various points but he didn’t pat them to sleep.
In this way they learnt to self settle without feel deserted by us. They still felt safe and secure. And they quickly understood what was required of them. From that point onwards they all became brilliant sleepers.
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wow, so many comments! thanks everyone!
as a mum of 2, with #2 now 5 months old & my 2nd serial catnapper & frequent night waker I am also keen for solutions. I admit to being obsessed about getting him to sleep past the 45 min catnap mark since he was about 9 weeks old. I have had a handful of successful times, but no consistent success YET.
Like many of you, I have read, I have seen Tresillian, I have had a ‘baby whisperer’ and so far I have learnt/ decided that:
-my baby is taking much longer to get with the self settling program than my first did, that doesn’t mean he won’t get there
-there are different ways of comforting a baby to sleep & its good to try different methods at different times ie. try something for 5 days or more to give it a good go at working, if its not working, then try something else
-my baby has needed some transition time to go from very assisted settling, being rocked & cuddled to sleep to being able to self settle with little comforters (he has a dummy & a hand comforter) and it has been gradual removal/adjustment of the comforting, not complete change at once which controlled comforting/crying calls for
-he is improving slowly, but he is improving so I keep trying because I believe babies really do need the skill of sleeping!!
-there is alot of info, alot of techniques & alot of options out there, but as my wise & caring husband told me when I complained about that fact, you take what you want from the info & see what works for us, what you agree with, what you feel comfortable with
-persisting with a screaming child is not helping anyone, there is a difference between controlled crying and out of control crying, so stop if its causing more harm than good
good luck everyone
how much easier would parenting be if babies/ children slept well!!
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3 amazing words changed our life: Kate Freney-Mills!
When it came to sleeping, we did all the “wrong” (but they felt so right!) things – coslept, fed bub to sleep, rocked bub to sleep, bub slept in my arms. It was wonderful and we felt so close and responsive but as a result, she didn’t sleep much at all! At 8 months, the sleep deprivation and husband&wife deprivation kicked into overdrive so we wanted to change things up but didn’t know how. I read some books, thought about controlled crying etc but it felt wrong. Felt too harsh. We finally ended up getting a sleep whisperer in, Kate, who sounded like a good compromise between our no-cry-responsive approach and the cry-it-out approach. She was amazing, and there was patting and crying but hardly any leaving and the whole thing took 3 days to go from waking every 2 hours to sleeping all night. Plus day sleeps! Best $180 I ever spent in my entire life.
Kate’s website is sleepschoolathome.com.au and she works out of Melbourne. She’s amazing!
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Here here to K F-M!! Certainly changed our lives when our son was 6 months and I have referred her on to everyone I know!
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my 11 month boy still wakes twice a night and although i know twice a night isnt that bad I would love for him to be able to re settle himself back to sleep… have i left it too late? he usually just has a little drink of water and a rub of the back and off he goes, have tried controlled crying (my form i suppose) and it goes on for one hour or two! I end up giving up after that amount of time and either pick him up which I know defeats the purpose of the past hour but I dont get how long do you keep going for four hours, five hours!!!!!! Some one told me some babies jsut dont work with the crying it out? Is this true…. just thought would ask for any ideas from Mia or Elizabeth… thanks for the great inteview!
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After 6 months of my first born waking every two hours every night, I was a bit of a wreck. She slept with white noise playing and while this helped settle her initially she still woke frequently through the night and wouldn’t resettle. We tried controlled crying when she was nearly 7 months old. Yes the first night was hard. And so was the second. On the third night as I sat on the floor next to her cot, I started to cry myself. At which point she stopped. And slept. And has done ever since. She is nearly 6 years old now and is such a good sleeper. My second daughter was never a great sleeper, but only woke once or twice through the night which was bearable and (she is now 3) she sleeps very soundly through the night.
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I find the whole topic of sleep school, sleep training etc quite foreign and in a way bizarre to me. I know that may sound weird but maybe it’s because I have never had a problem with my daughter sleeping. She is now 8 yrs old and is still an awesome sleeper (10-12hrs a night) and started sleeping through from 7 weeks old. I have no neices or nephews and my mum lives an hour away so I just went with the flow. She was breastfed for the first 12 months, started solids at 6 months and never had issues sleeping. I would give her a feed and certainly for perhaps the first 6 months she would fall asleep during the feed. I’d then mainly let her sleep on me (head on my shoulder and lying on my chest) for maybe half an hour then put her to bed. She wouldn’t stir and would just sleep for 3-4 hrs until the next feed. As she got a little older (maybe 12-18 months), then she would wake crying. I’d listen to the cry and work out if it was just a tired one or an upset cry and tend to her if need be. Majority of times she would fall back to sleep. If she didn’t, I’d make her a milk bottle and she would drift off to sleep with that. I know it’s probably not good practice but that was something my mum suggested and she did for her 3 kids and we all turned out perfectly normal. I’m now studying psychology and would love to work in perinatal so it’s always interesting hearing how different women deal with the sleep problems. It’s not a one size fits all approach but pretty much what works for you. Maybe because I was pretty laid back and never jumped up whenever my daughter cried or even because I continued housework (including vacuuming) whilst she was sleeping, who knows. I’m just thankful she is a wonderful sleeper and feel for every one of you ladies who have had those problems. Fatigue is a bad thing.
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At the risk of sounding like a broken record, go to your local child health centre. They’re in every state and will offer you differing levels of help, according to your needs and will refer you to residential help Karitane, Ellen Barron centre etc when you need more help than they can offer.
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There are many different strategies for helping children learn to sleep, Elizabeth is another one. Will work for some & not for others. I think the important thing is the research related from the ABC report. Having been through a difficult time with both our children (first baby woke half-hourly round the clock for 8 months), I beat myself up with guilt over not wanting to ‘damage’ her by letting her cry at all (yes, I read all those articles on belly belly & other forums). Meanwhile, we were all suffering. I was slowly losing my mind – descending into some pretty serious post natal depression, my baby was cranky & tired, my husband was exhausted. I tried co-sleeping, I tried feeding her ‘on demand’ (ie. every time she woke) – but she had a sleep problem, she wasn’t hungry, and so we made her sick as well.
Some babies can’t be fed constantly (despite what you may hear about it ‘not being possible to overfeed a breastfed baby’) – in her case too much milk/lactose stripped the lining of her intestines & caused her to start losing weight because she couldn’t absorb any nutrition.
In the end, we got help from the awesome people at Karitane (in Sydney, & online & on the phone) & worked out the gentlest way we could to help our daughter learn to sleep. She did learn to sleep – she now has that skill for life. I dread to think what life for her & us would be like if she hadn’t.
I do think it’s fantastic if you don’t ever need to use these things, but lots of babies just aren’t great sleepers. Some families need to figure out that it’s the right thing for them – for the physical and mental health of ALL of the family. In the end, for us (thankfully, & luckily) – it only took a week of a bit of extra crying from my daughter, and she was sorted. No more sleep problems, for any of us. No more constant crying (yes, there was LESS crying as a result of using the comfort settling, than if we had let things continue as they were!).
My mental health improved, my daughter’s mental health improved, my daughter’s physical health improved, my husband’s mental health improved. If this hadn’t happened, then someone was going to get hurt. Seriously. Somehow.
If you’re in this situation, take heart to figure out something that will help you all get what you need, especially if it’s sleep. There are lots of great support resources out there. And don’t get beaten up by the guilt brigade of what you should & shouldn’t do.
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PS. Oh, and we had tried various ‘routine’ books – i tied myself up in knots trying to follow them from birth, and we still got a non-sleeper (I never fed her to sleep, I always put her down awake, etc etc.). They work for some babies (I strongly believe you get a particular baby, and some books fit those babies – you are so lucky!!!). We just got challenging kids. If you have one of those kids, don’t lose heart – you need someone to stand by your side, and confirm how well you know your baby & help you figure out what will work for them.
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good on you for seeking help – I’m glad it eventually got better.
Totally agree you have to go with the baby – I thought I would be a total earth mother/co-sleeper with my baby, but after months of trying to feed/rock/comfort her to sleep with no success, a nurse showed me how to just settle her in the cot.
Turns out she just needed a bit of SPACE and she could go to sleep herself.
And, of course, this was just my particular baby – I would still love to be able to sleep with my kids (safely) but you have to figure out what works for them.
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Thanks Blu-K – I think my kids are like that too! I liked the idea of co-sleeping (still wouldn’t mind having them take naps w/ me) but my daughter asks me to leave now when she’s tired lol!
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I read both Save Our Sleep and Contented Little Baby before J was born and after he was born, mixed and matched for a while. They both gave such great advice and stopped me making the most obvious mistakes in the early day (like feeding baby to sleep, using sleep aids in general). It is easier never to do these things than to have to un-do them down the track.
At around 6 weeks I got on Tizzie’s forums because J was doing great stuff sleeping wise but not quite falling into the routine suggested for his age in the book. The lovely people in the forum had me sorted in a couple of weeks and from that point on … it was magic.
We’ve never had ‘witching hour’ in our household because he’s always had the right amount of sleep and food for his age. It’s not easy doing the whole routine thing and takes a certain personality type (mine) but once they are in it, it makes for a very happy household.
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http://elleandsam.wordpress.com/2011/10/02/if-the-boot-fits/
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We used the sleep right, sleep tight book when the kids were born and it worked a treat. Only wish it had been around when I was born, as I’m the problem sleeper in our house now!
Good sleep habits last a lifetime and have far reaching benefits and I’m so glad my kids are still 11 hour sleepers with both still regularly having afternoon sleeps (6 and 3) and still doing the 11 hour night sleeps. We were lucky that they mostly slept through the night (10-12 hours) from around 2 mths, old but we definitely had to work at it and reinforce the strategies every now and again. I remember patting to sleep for up to half an hour at times when there were changes – moving from cradle to cot and such things. Worth every second of hard work though!
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Great book!
those flowcharts in sleep right sleep tight are a godsend!! And it is a good halfway point between attachment and strict routine approaches.
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Just for the record – some babies do spontaneously sleep through the night. Our baby girl started sleeping through at 6.5 weeks old of her own accord. At first it was 11pm until 5am and it just continued from there until she was doing 12 hours a night. We were totally shocked – I was ready to go all Tizzie Hall on the sleep issue if I needed to! So it does happen – but it is very rare and we are totally grateful…and realise our next baby may not be quite so awesome in the sleep department! x
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I thought the same thing after baby number 1 slept all night (8pm-7am) at 7 weeks. Then number 2 slept right through at 6 weeks and baby number 3 was sleeping through at 9 weeks and is still asleep as I write this! I can’t explain it but often joke if I knew the secret I would be rich!
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We’re truly struggling again at the moment. We did controlled crying early and it worked for awhile but recently thng s have changed. The twins – now two-and-a-half – are going through an odd phase that has me questioning my sanity. They’re back to full-on screaming at bedtime but the biggest thing is what I’d call ‘sleep tantrums’ where they (well mostly it’s just one of them but the other does occasionally as well). They wake us up screaming and almost thrashing but aren’t conscious. Sometimes they’re semi-conscious and on the very rare occasion will engage in dialogue by answering basic questions through the tears but mostly it’s just screaming that can’t be calmed through any method we can think of. Google has been no help (only found three other peop,e decribing the same thing and no one had any answers for them) nor a GP. We’re chasing references and looking at a wait list for a sleep school but it the meantime I’m averaging two hours broken sleep each night. This is a stay-at-home dad who’s abut to crack. Any ideas anyone? Please?
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Gday Anthony,
I have experienced similar with my kids. I believe it was the night terrors. Awake but not awake, impossible to settle. Very stressful. I read somewhere that the episodes would often happen around the same time of night (I found this to be true) and one thing to try was to go and wake the child 30 odd mins before the episode is due to kick off, interrupting the sleep cycle and skipping the bad bit.
We also found it helped to make sure the kids weren’t too hot- sometimes they’d have their head under the blankets.and be overheated.
As for the settling- I found different things worked with different kids. But going in and snuggling them down, speaking quietly and patting the hip has helped with the latest one. We tried waking them up and bringing them into the lounge, talking to them, feeding them, bribing them. Ultimately it was a matter of waiting it out.
The good news is- they all grew out of it! Hope this helps. Best of British luck…
Mary
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First of all – so sorry to hear what a hard time you are having! sounds desperate.
The first thought I had was – are they having night terrors? I think this is the age when they have them…
Good luck!
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We had similar experience with our little guy about a year ago – he was nearly 2 years at the time. He would wake up having a total meltdown – nothing we could do except stay near him & reassure him over the screaming/crying then as he accepted touch slowly bring him close & comfort with a cuddle. I think in his case he was overheating – as soon as we addressed that they eased & we had not episodes through winter & Sydeny summer has not been that hot. But funnily he hates having blankets on of any kinds so perhaps he has recall on it.
Very traumatic as a parent to deal with – good luck.
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I am a “baby whisperer” in Sydney’s Eastern Suburbs, and quite heavily booked so I can tell you this – No parent is alone when it comes to sleep deprivation, helplessness and desperation.
Gentle sleep guidance and my very own time tested tools work very promptly. I do suggest starting early though. Before the birth or soon after the birth (like the first night at home) is ideal. However it is never too late. It does get more challenging as baby gets set though…
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My aunt gave me a copy of Tizzie Hall’s book : SAVE OUR SLEEP. Any mums out there who are struggling with sleep and can’t quite afford to have baby whisperer come to your house, GET THIS BOOK!!! It works, it’s brilliant!
My 9 1/2 month old son sleeps 12hrs every night and has done so since he was 8 weeks – from following The SAVE OUR SLEEP routines.
Tizzie is an amazing woman and has made such a difference in adjusting to becoming a mother, I really don’t know what I would have done without her…. And I’ve never met the woman, only her book
Get to the book shops all you sleep deprived mummas!! You DON’T have to do it without sleep or “controlled-crying”
SAVE OUR SLEEP – Tizzie Hall
(the international baby whisperer)
Should be no more than $30 at BIG W, book stores, or online
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http://www.bellybelly.com.au/baby/the-con-of-controlled-crying
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Interesting how no one in the Tizzie-brigade has responded to this.
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I am an Aussie living in Germany and well here its normal to have kids that don’t sleep through the night at all, even three years old wake two to three times in the night and get milk or go to mum or dads bed . When i explain that both of my daughter slept through the night at 5 months they honestly don’t believe me.
I sleep trained my two kids first daughter 5 months and second daughter from birth. Yes you can train from birth and it works. I used Tizzy Hall SAVE OUR SLEEP. I don’t use the methods to the book now I just move around the routines to suit our needs but basically I have two kids that sleep through most nights except when teething or sick.
I noticed my second baby is so much better at self settling , she doesn’t need a dummy , or rocking nothing just put her in her sleeping bag a quick song and she usually smile and laughs and lights out asleep.
The funny thing is I was so much tougher on my first daughter letting her cry sometimes for 40 minutes but I can’t let my second baby cry , to be honest I don’t need to, and when she is upset something is wrong so I know when to go in and comfort her.
Im a big fan of Save Our Sleep, it works and would recommend it not sure about Control Crying seems like allot of work and also its kind of like teasing your child , I find sometimes it makes it worse when I do go in and there just about to fall asleep they cry even harder and then not to pick them up ? All the best to those sleepless night mums. At the end of the day all babies are different and it depends on how you get your baby to sleep, if you feed them to sleep then they are going to wake every two hours expecting to suck. Makes sense.
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Another Tizzie fan!!!
Gotta love that 7 o’clock train to sleepy town!!
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At first I tried all the ‘right’ techniques, but with co sleeping my son nodded off in 5 minutes.
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We have just had the absolute pleasure of having Elizabeth in our home helping sort out our beautiful, cheeky, non-sleeping 18 month old! Elizabeth’s program is meant to last 3 nights, but as she is sooo good at what she does, we did not need her on night 3 as our ltitle man was self-settling by night 2! Last night was our first night on our own, and I didn’t hear a single peep out of him !
She is the most amazingly calm, knowledgeable, caring lady who I would have NO hesitation in recommending to anyone.
She really does have ‘the magic wand’ and I can happily say, our 4.5 year sleepless journey through 2 non-sleeping children has finally come to an end !
Sleep tight everyone xx
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Hi, I have three children myself, and they have all, thankfully been good sleepers and settled babies. Now, while I acknowledge that I’ve been lucky in this department, I have friends who have not been so blessed. Three of my close friends have had very unsettled children, however, with the help of Elizabeth Sloane, all three babies now sleep like super-stars
)) From what I’ve heard first-hand, she has changed the lives of so many children and their families, and I commend her x
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PS> Mamamia team, the link to the original “3am” story doesn’t work, it says “404 not found”
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We have had the good fortune of being connected with Elizabeth. We have had a transformational experience. Our little boy who has just turned 19 months has now spent an entire week in his own bed, sleeping deeply, settling himself and waking up chattering (happily).
We have been AMAZED by what Elizabeth has been able to achieve for our family. She has a very calm style and approach and if you follow her advice you will get results. She absolutely knows what she is talking about. Her follow up post the 3 day night program is exceptional. She doesn’t miss a sleep to follow up and keep advised of progress with tips along the way if required.
We would have absolutely NO hesitation whatsoever in recommending Elizabeth. She acts as a circuit breaker as well, and after trying many times to get our son to sleep, in his own bed, we had zero effect. The gift of sleep is the best gift you can give your child, let alone your family and yourself. The changes in our son have been immeditely visible, he is happier, calmer, and wakes up chirping. He also now sleeps longer in the day and is sleeping 12 hours at night. We used this program to also send the dummies to dummy heaven which was an extra pos+ outcome.
Elizabeth Sloane is exceptional at what she does, a very delightful woman, very caring with our son. She is 100% trustworthy and appreciates the sensitivities around children learning to sleep. I only wish I had found her earlier:-)))
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Happy Bear, I am the next family that Elizabeth visited after you and I agree with your comments wholeheartedly!! On the second night of the program, my daughter (12 and a half months) slept 7pm-7.45am… last night 6.50pm-7.30am… tonight was my first night alone without Elizabeth, and she went down with no fuss, no tears, no tantrums, NOTHING but a good night kiss!
This from a baby who used to stand on the edge of the crib, holding the bars and screaming her lungs out if we didn’t attend to her immediately…. and who, just a week ago, was waking 3-6 times a night.
I honestly didn’t think this was possible! Elizabeth is a miracle worker – and best of all, she is so kind and gentle, I trusted her 110% with my baby and couldn’t recommend her more highly. If anyone is considering using Elizabeth and has any questions from a parent’s point of view, feel free to email me: mediaproduce@gmail.com xx
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I had Elizabeth in our house a month ago and I am typing this as my 1yr old is screaming her lungs out at 4am for the third morning in a row. The program has not worked for us.
Our baby has always been a challenging sleeper. We visited Masada Mother Baby unit in Melbourne when she was 5.5 months old and despite following their program to the ‘t’ for 8 weeks our baby was still waking between 3-4am and not resettling. Eventually we gave in and I started b/feeding her again to get a quick resettle and cope with being a mother and working, pretty much, full time. We tried the program again ourselves a few months later but enlisted the services of Elizabeth from this blog and a friend’s recommendation.
As we live in Melbourne and we were now skeptical of any of this type of program we spoke to Elizabeth at length before agreeing to use her, explaining how despite our commitment to it, the controlled crying program hasn’t worked.
Elizabeth ensured us that her program at our own house would work. She had absolutely no doubt. As per her video’s here, she would not elaborate on her techniques but told us myriad reasons why Masada was not the answer and she would be. This avoidance tactic is one she is again employing when we are questioning what the hell we are to do now.
We spent the best part of $3000 with fees, travel costs and a high – even by corporate standards – per dium rate to have her services.
She was calming, lovely to our baby, lovely to us and left our home telling us that she thought by about ‘night 6′ our child would sleep through. It’s worth pointing out that she does not guarantee to get your baby sleeping through but that the baby will learn the art of self settling. Fine by us – we wanted a realistic outcome.
She did however sit on the bean bag in our lounge and say “If she’s not got this in a month I’ll come back myself and sort it for no cost.”
On night six when I texted in desperation (a means of communication she encouraged, which I must say, unreservedly, was very supportive) that our bub had been up for 2hrs she counseled us through and got us to change the settling techniques she had left us with. During the last month we’ve probably contacted her 6-8 times for advice, with the last being 10 days ago. Settling advice has changed three times and we are now going in ‘every 20mins’ to reposition bubs etc… Exactly the tools we had when we left Masada that didn’t work for us and that we’d discussed with Elizabeth. Anyway…
So, did we do anything wrong? There have been two nights where we’ve given our baby pain killer and changed her soaked (from crying) sheets but since being given the strict instruction from Eliz a couple of weeks ago to NEVER take her out of her bed at all to avoid sending any ‘mixed messages’ we’ve not touched her. What I’m saying is that we’re not softies struggling with the controlled crying (I think after a year we’re numb to it) but that we have hung off every word she has said and obeyed.
Last Sunday in my absolute darkest hour I sent her a text which said we were entirely frustrated with the program’s lack of results and we were going to need her to come back, as promised, as I was going into hospital to have all my wisdom teeth out in a week’s time and couldn’t maintain training.
The silence has been deafening from Elizabeth and the noise from our bub’s room also deafening. I feel as exhausted off the back of three consecutive rough nights (where we’ve sleep trained every night) and go into my op in three hours.
My honest experience has been that this program has not worked for us. Elizabeth is 100% confident in her abilities, which is a dangerous position and she has not lived up to her own, self proclaimed, guarantee.
I don’t know what to do next. 20mins is now up… Time for a re-tuck and a prayer…
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Hi there, Did you end up getting a resolution with Elizabeth? Having gone through the program with her I’m surprised that you feel she left you high and dry, as that’s not the experience I had with her at all. I also know how exhausting it is to live with a crying baby who won’t settle (our little girl didn’t sleep more than a fews hours at a time until she was 1), so I totally feel your pain! I really hope things worked out for you xo
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Hi Megs,
That’s great that you had such awesome and quick success.
When Elizabeth first arrived at our place she said we could expect the kind of results you enjoyed on night 2 or 3… By night three Elizabeth was telling us it would be night 6. On night 6 when I called her, she told me that night 16 would be a real problem… You can guess where we were at night 16…
We did chat with her for a NUMBER of weeks (so there was definitely support there in those initial weeks), because we weren’t in your fortunate position of bubby sleeping relatively well after a few nights of training with Elizabeth.
Our baby did learn to resettle after about a month through the most of the night.
It just hit a standstill because the techniques we were given (which kept changing as the weeks went by) wasn’t working in regard to mornings, which we were told must be sorted to ensure the program was locked in.
Where I found Elizabeth’s plan to REALLY not work for us was that she insisted I resettle at 5/5.30am to get her sleeping the whole 7-7 ideal… After about a week’s training I was just exhausted by starting my day with settling for three hours and then trying to get ready at 8.30am to shoot to work… It really was just another nap by that hour of the morning and after a month I was DRAINED! It sucks being up with a crying baby but imagine a month of mornings like that! Yes, we tried it for a whole month.
I’ve heard of a lot of positive outcomes on controlled crying programs after three nights, but that just wasn’t our luck! Elizabeth herself couldn’t crack her and we amateurs struggled once she’d gone back to Sydney.
Subsequent consultations with another sleep expert have completely supported a controlled crying program with our child, but have told us to expect her to be one of those kiddies that will pop in an out of it a regular schedule (e.g. sickness, travel) and have also told us not to waste our time and tears on trying to resettle when the birds are chirping, the city is waking and our wee one has had enough sleep after 10.5hrs overnight…
What a relief… For all of us. We’ve made our peace and we’ve just had to learn to work with the early starts.
May sleep be with all of us!
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So glad it worked out for you in the end! Sleep is such a gift isn’t it… So hard to work/function/not resent everyone around you who is getting beautiful full night’s of sleep when you’re not getting it! haha
Our little one has decided 7-7 is not her bag, she does around 7-5.30am, and I’m happy with that – hopefully one day she’ll sleep a little later, but for now I’m okay going to bed earlier and getting a full uninterrupted night sleep!
Happy new year
x
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Heya,
so sorry to hear that palaver you have been through. Okay this may be not the standard advice, but why not put the family bed on the floor (mattress) get rid of soft pillows etc and just take babe to bed with you when things get tough?
This is what women do all over the world and it takes no time to settle baby this way. Co-sleeping is not dangerous if it is done properly – look at Japan where women do this.
This is what we have done with our third child. It is just the kind of child he is. Learning to sleep is a developmental milestone which not all children learn at the same time. I am not against controlled crying, but I just don;t think that it works for all children. Some children learn to settle for a while, then unlearn it when the next growth spurt comes along. To avoid going crazy, I just learnt to go with it…(and husband and I take turns on getting our sleep…) all the best
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Hello,
I’m looking for Elizabeth’s contact details..
Would anyone happen to know how to contact her?
Thank You,
Sher
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Her details are at the end of the video clip
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Thank You Lana =)
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I just scrolled down and found the giftofsleep email address..
Thanks Mia, yes I’m DEF too tired to have seen it! haha
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Wow so good to hear it talked about these days. I had my first son 9 1/2 years ago and boy did we do it tough that first year. I felt like the only mum who didn’t have a happy settled baby overnight in my mothers group. They would all chirp about how they wern’t getting up to their babies anymore me i was sometimes 10 times a night! Anyway aged 1 i took him to a sleep school for 2 days and what a difference it made. Never looked back actually. He was from then on and still is a great sleeper. With my other 2 children well i learnt alot with that experience so they were quite good sleepers from then on. Wish i was told that it was very normal to have a not a great sleeping baby and he really needed to be taught how to self settle. I really enjoyed baby 2 and 3 alot more as i was more relaxed and i think they were too as a result!
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I call that first few months of a babys life “Guantanamo Baby”. I was lucky enough to have found Save Our Sleep by Tizzie Hall out of desperation when my now 2y9m daughter was 10 weeks old. Prior she was pretty much up and screaming every 2 hours ALL DAY every day for 10 weeks. I don’t know who cried more, her or me – I really was at the point of desperate desperation. I didn’t like my husband, my baby or myself. Amazingly she slept through (7pm-7am with a dreamfeed at 10.30pm) the very first night I followed Tizzie’s routines and advice on burping, stimulation etc. My second is now 11.5 weeks old and has been a much happier and relaxed baby and began sleeping through naturally at around 10 weeks. Its still hard work but without all of the stress and distress associated with a screaming baby.
Routines aren’t for everyone but it was an amazing tool for me as my daughter was the third baby I’d ever held in my life. Tizzie helped me recognise ‘protest’ cries vs emotional cries and basically boosted my confidence as a mother, wife, woman. I encourage anyone who is struggling to seek help ASAP. You can then find a method that suits you and your family. I for one recommend Save Our Sleep as in my view its a much gentler and holistic approach – I don’t think I could have done any of the controlled crying before 6 months and I don’t think I would have lasted 6 months before at least having a contented baby.
Thank you for bringing this issue up – so many new mums struggle and feel so alone so its wonderful to know we are not alone.
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Great article. I have forwarded it to everyone i know as so many of us are dealing with the sleep issue at the moment. I myself have been having some success with save our sleep with my 3 month old, but i would not hesitate to use a program like this if i needed to (and if i could afford it!)
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thanks BINCA, ta for support. Delighted your bub is going well. elizabeth
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no problem. i was having a shocking day yesterday so watched again and got reminded about why he needs to learn this!
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I’ve been following this discussion after watching the videos. Elizabeth comes across as a very sensible and kind woman, but here are a few questions/ issues that remain unanswered and worry me:
what exactly does Elizabeth do on each of these three nights? It’s a little hard to judge what one night think based on euphemisms such as “gift of sleep” and “magic wand”
has it at times not been effective? When, for what kinds of babies/families, why?
Most importantly, how does such sleep training take account of the temperaments of different babies?
I have 2 children, a boy 6, a girl nearly 2. My son starting sleeping through without any training at around 4 months. I did do a day stay at a sleep school around that time when he was taking only 40 min daytime naps, but the people who worked there said given his good night sleeping and extremely loud screaming, better to just roll with it. I did and he started doing longer day sleeps at around 8 months. We also did a few night of CC at 6 months to transition him out of a wrap. He was a dummy fanatic, which we weaned him off around 3 years old. So by Elizabeth’s checkboxes, some good and bad habits. Importantly, his relatively calm temperament placed no big obstacles in the way of his sleep.
My daughter is an entirely different matter. Extremely clingy and high strung from birth. Some call her kind of temperament “spirited”. I have list some hearing in my left ear because if the level and intesity of her scream. She was the kind of baby whose scream would draw everyone’s attention at the shops. She is very wary of strangers and very, very attached to me. This is her. Her sleeping has been shocking and we have suffered. After considering sleep programs many times and talking in depth with our lovely paedeatrician — who warned me that CC with babies like her can seriously backfire — I have put in the hard yards using methods suggested by Pinky McKay and Elizabeth Panteley. We still co-sleep and breastfeed but have gone from her waking 10-12 times a night around 12 months to her waking (at the moment) 1-3, occasionally none. Her day sleeps have likewise improved. So self-settling is not an all or none thing. It can slowly improve over time and different children can be developmentally ready for it at different times. As the mother of this particular little girl and as a cognitive scientist, I can live with this pathway for her. I remember that I am the adult and she is the baby.
So to all of you desperate, sleep deprived mums reading this, take heart. It can get better over time and if you think your child or your family can’t tolerate the demands of a sleep training program, there are other ways. You know what is best for your child.
You can give them the gift of sleep in your own way and time.
Good luck
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Sorry about the spelling mistakes; iPhone!! I lost not list hearing!!
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You raise some critical questions. What actually happens throughout those nights? She probably makes them cry for 1 min, then 2, then 3, and builds it until they are allowed to cry for 20 minutes. I have seen time and time again throughout this thread are deep sense of DENIAL by most people using this technique. That is- “we are not leaving them” “we are attending to them”. How can people say that you are NOT leaving them? You are! How can you say you are attending to them, when you are purposefully leaving them for an unbearable amount of time. What is going on in peoples minds when they think 20 minutes is just fine for a precious baby? I do not believe Karitanee advocate leaving your child for that long? I am not 100% sure though.
I have asked Elizabeth time and time again throughout this thread if she is aware of cortisol and the dangers of it. I have no response.
She looks lovely and seems genuiene in wanting to help, but may not necessarily understand that what she is doing can be harmful to children.
I agree that you did the right thing by your child. It is fabulous that you have had the training in psych to know and understand different temperament styles and just how critical it is that we meet the needs of that child. My concern is that there are millions of parents out there with children who have similar temperament styles leaving them to cry to sleep, because they trust the advise from well intentioned so called professionals.
This approah needs so much investigation. I am so tempted to do my PHD on it!!!!
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I am very interested in the cortisol question, but from a different angle. I did the attachment/co-sleeping/sling carrying thing with my 3. One of them was settled, could put herself off to sleep and so on. The other two were nothing like that, very needy and unsettled babies, and they both cried a lot. I suppose my question about this is wouldn’t this crying have done the same thing to their cortisol levels? I don’t know if anyone is still reading this thread, but it has been playing on my mind.
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Thank you frankie. This is a BRLLIANT question
From my understanding there is no research into this. I really need to invesitigate this matter further. I was terribly worried about my son, as he was so unsettled, criticially ill etc.
What we do know is that when we hold our children it does have a positive neourological effect on their brains. Seeing that research in this area is lacking, I am simply speaking from my own logical thoughts. We know that when we hold our children it sets of endorphins in their brains. We also know that a stressed baby will have terrible amounts of cortisol in their brains.
Now, if they are left to deal with it on their own, their is NOTHING taking the edge off for them. There is nothing at all soothing them. There is nothing at all helping them.
But if you are there, holding them, nurturing them etc, then, it should be counterbalancing the negative.
Looking at this from an evolutionary perspective, babies have always been attended to because of the physical dangers in the environemnt. Maybe nurturing our childrne whilst they are crying will counter the effects of cortisol.
Think about it like this- When you are traumatized, hysterical and alone, how does that feel?
BUT
When you are traumatised, hysterical, but in the loving hands of someone- how would that feel?
Exactly my point!
As I said, if we are strictly speaking from a scientific perspective, there is no research that I am aware of at the moment. This topic needs much investigation and urgently, seeing that Controlled crying is the most popular parenting method of the West.
I have maintained that controlled crying would be worth the risk if it was only ever the once. But, seeing that it is rarely ever the case, i have deep concerns about it. BUT no one should judge anyone on this. I really think it is cruel when we say nasty things about parents who do things differently and are usually doing what they feel is best. Mostly with the guidance of well intentioned professionals.
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I went to a sleep clinic once with my little boy. I was very reluctant, but also a little desperate (in that long-term sleep-deprived kind of way). Anyway, I had this wonderful nurse who talked about listening carefully to the tone of the baby’s cry, rather than watching the clock. Was the cry winding down, steady or escalating? If it was winding down, she suggested leaving him (but still listening), if escalating, you’d go in and give comfort. This made much more intuitive sense to me than arbitrary time limits, but I’ve no idea if it reflects what is taught more broadly.
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I agree with you: whereas I’m not sure if there is current explicit psychological research on whether there is a difference in the cortisol levels of a baby crying in arms vs a baby left to cry for whatever period, intuition would tell us that when we hold a crying baby in our arms, we are helping them to self-soothe. Observations of my daughter, especially during her first 8 months, led me to believe that it was always preferable for me to hold her when she was distressed and to assist her in making her transitions to sleep than to let her scream in her cot. I’m not talking about grizzling, grumbling or crying that was on a downward trajectory. My daughter never just cried; she screamed. I know the difference. If she had of been my first, I perhaps would have been confused that all babies cry like she did, but I knew better from having parented my son (and also from comments from others). There was also a difference in the intensity of crying/screaming that she did when I held her versus when my husband held her. Because of our strong attachment, I definitely had a more soothing effect on her than he did. I put this down to her temperament, as I said above: extremely sensitive, extremely persistent. Dr William Sears writes that whereas the crying of many babies will wind down if left alone for certain periods of time, spirited (or “fussy” babies as he calls them) just escalate their crying. He also strongly advocates never leaving babies to cry in distress alone and argues that there is a big difference between crying alone and crying in arms. Thus, although I’m not sure what the cortisol levels would be across these situations, my belief is that my child felt the difference.
This is why I am quite concerned that mothers might think that their baby necessarily needs or might necessarily benefit from a sleep training program. Due to their different temperaments, different babies can take much longer to learn to self-settle and can need more or less assistance in transitioning to sleep and transitioning through sleep cycles. This doesn’t mean that they’ll never learn these skills; they’re not irrevocably broken. And controlled crying in whatever form might seriously backfire in such children. As you pointed out below (I think), when the baby starts teething, has a cold, goes on holiday, or experiences another disruption, the whole process often needs to be started again. For an especially sensitive child, each episode of sleep training might mean weeks, not days of distress for all.
Parenting any child who doesn’t sleep as much as you’d like or think they should (Elizabeth says in the video that babies “should” be sleeping through the night by 5 months, but I thought that survey data showed that the great majority in fact do not; Mia calls Elizabeth on this point. Do we sleep train them because of what they “should” be doing or because of what they actually often do?) can be extremely exhausting, stressful, and demoralising. I know as well as anybody. Believe me, I know. I have a massive sleep debt after 2 years of pretty full on sleep deprivation (combined with trying to hold down a job). I’m not trying to be a martyr to my daughter. I’m just very concerned about the impact that a hard line approach to her sleeping might have on her attachment, security, personality and other development. I’m qualified (as her mother) to make that decision; I also read a lot of the psychological and sleep literature before and after she was born. Others will need to make their own decision based on their intuition, experience, advice they seek, information they read. It can be a hard journey and I wish everybody success, by whatever means.
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So pleased to see someone raising these points, I totally agree with everything you have said. Our baby cried for approx 16 hours a day non stop every day for the first six months of his life. Despite doing everything we could to find out why, we still have no idea what caused it. I do know that I held him pretty much 24 hours a day throughout this period so that he knew he was not alone in his time of need. He is now 2.5 and still co- sleeps but happily goes to bed and sleeps 12 plus hours every night. During the day he is very independent and self assured and people are constantly amazed at what a happy child ge is. I honestly believe the hours we spent holding him and reassuring him in the early days have made him the content child he is today. He knows he will never be abandoned and that we respect him and his needs as much as we respect any other adults. We would not leave our partners alone to cry if they were having trouble sleeping! Nor would we tell them to sleep in another room and not make a sound until morning. We like the comfort that comes from sleeping beside our partners and likewise children like the comfort that comes from sleeping beside their parents. It is not making bad habits! Sleep deprivation is certainly very hard to deal with but it is not forever. Psychological damage, however small, may well be forever though.
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sorry about spelling mistakes lol…have my little monkey hanging around when I write
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Elizabeth does make it sound like her approach works for everyone but I personally know a family who have used her & at 2.5 their little girl is still not sleeping through. They did tell me though when I was struggling with my own baby that her techniques were not too extreme and that they never felt that their baby was left alone when distressed.
Unlike my experience at Tresillian where I was encouraged to leave my baby screaming for hours & hours. I left after 4 nights. Her sleep got much worse after that. She went from being up for 3-5 hours a night to suddenly sleeping through on her own at 18 months and has never looked back.
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OMG.. Is that what Trecillian do? That is dangerous..
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I have just come home from a week at Tresillian. That is NOT what they do. They teach you to listen to the level of the cry and give comfort at escalation or if at ANYTIME you as mum feel uncomfortable.
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Hardcore people will always say that what they oppose is terrible.
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I agree for both sides. Then they usually blame someone for how they’re feeling or the situation they’re in.
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We also had an amazing time at Tresillian – they tought us to listen to the babies cries & go in when the baby was distressed.
He wasn’t left to cry for hours on end, and at the end of the stay he was sleeping through the night (as opposed to waking up every 2 hours before).
It was also holistic – with assistance on the amount of solids he should be eating.
Definately recommend calling their help line.
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Great piece, thanks Mia!
Elizabeth, is there anybody you would reccommend in Melbourne??
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hi laura, ta for comments..unfortunately not but i do travel…leave it with you..welcome to email me….eliz x
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I have a 2 year old who we sleep trained around 7 months. By 1 year she slept through and stopped the catnapping during the day which she developed at 3 weeks. She sleeps well now.
NOW…I have a 4 week old as well and he is catnapping as well during the day.
He is a very frequent breastfeeder and will feed/poop 12 times or more a day. He was fussy in the normal hours after about 4pm and would cluster feed but now he has started doing the cluster feed and not sleeping unless being fed or rocked all day long. He wakes within minutes of being put down and if you put him down awake he cries deep deep cries after jerking his arms and legs around for a few minutes
I am trying a dummy (I know! I shouldn’t!) and that does soothe him and make him sleep but the minute it falls from his mouth he is awake crying.
At night he is not too bad but is in bed with us most nights as the crying unless a dummy or boob is in his mouth is wearing my out, getting up every few minutes was torture.
I’m scared that I will have another year of sleep deprivation, bad habits and this time it will be worse as I have my daughters needs as well. I am torn with wanting to create good habits and sleep train with having a very young newborn who wants comfort – and I want to give him all that. I just want to be able to have the whole family happy : )
Any advice???
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Your bub sounds like my second baby. She didn’t sleep well until 18 months (sorry!).
I did have a little success once I started stretching her feeds a litle in the day. She then had bigger, better feeds & less pooping as not so much foremilk I think.
Good luck.
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THANK YOU MIA!
Wow, this story could NOT have been more timely for me. Yet again Mia, you make me love coming to this blog cause its always so RELEVANT and INTERESTING!!
When my 1st son was 4 months old and waking every 40 minutes and feeding 3 times a night, I was at an all time low. I think i was depressed, and happy to call it PND but wonder if I would have felt so bad if I had been getting at least a few hours sleep a night…. so I phoned ELIZABETH, recommended to me by many friends…..
She was SO lovely, warm, understanding and knew exactly what I was going through. I hung up the phone feeling like I wasnt so alone and that what was happening to me was normal and that there was a way out. That phone call itself gave me renewed energy. We booked the dates and I counted down…..
In the end, I couldnt stand another minute of the sleep torture and did CC at 5 3/4 months. It was FOOLPROOF. From that moment, my now 2 year old leaps into his cot every single sleep and is a fabulous sleeper. I rang and cancelled Elizabeth and as she told me on the phone, she is more than happy to be cancelled cause it means Mum must be getting some sleep!!
Soooooo… when I gave birth 6 months ago, I knew what I would be in for, worst case scneario…. and unfortunately I got it. Baby number 2 was identical. Waking every 40 minutes all night and feeding non-stop. But the beauty this time was I knew it would end….
So when I opened this story earlier this week – I literally was at breakdown point with my just turned 6 month old. Running around after 2 boys, 18 mnths apart on sometimes 1 hour sleep a night was not sustainable. For EVERYONE and as Elizabeth says, for the sake of the family and my marriage.
So I read all the comments on this story and watched with relish the 2 videos of Mia and Elizabeth at 7pm on Wednesday night. It was a wonderful distraction….. And by the time I was done, the crying had stopped. And you know what… my bub is now self settling, sleeping like a baby should, eating so much better, smiling, happy and I CAN ENJOY HIM! This is the most important part.
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU MIA AND ELIZABETH.
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Such a nice story!
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GREAT TO HEAR…..X
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My child had such a hard time getting to sleep when a baby, we did exactly as Elizabeth suggested from 6 months but worked through the night but just getting to sleep has always been hard for him. He is now 5 y.o. does ANYONE have ANY advice on how to teach him to get to sleep by himself. My 3 y.o. goes to sleep so easily…
I’d hate for him to have this issue forever and I haven’t been able to find any info on the subject.
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sorry that should say ‘it worked through the night’
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HI spy girl……am happy to trouble shoot via email…pleased he is sleeping at nite but lets try and get him going off a little calmer….x
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I have a solution for a baby that constantly wakes in the night- cosleeping and breastfeeding. I’ve been there and done that with the CC as someone who should’ve known better and truamatised my child. Now with my other children, easy peasy booby sleepy.
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What about when you’ve already tried that and your baby still doesn’t sleep??
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Do what works blah blah blah
My LO woke between 3-6 times a night for 12 months but I never let her cry. It’s dangerous to take advice from people to ‘cc’ or ‘controlled comforting’ (what an oxymoron that is!) if it doesn’t feel right to you. Whenever LO would be on an all night feeding binge it wasn’t the lack of sleep that stressed me out but more the thought that others thought it was wrong for a baby to be waking so much. It made me so angry because it IS natural for babies to be wakeful! But when I threw out all the books and started focussing on listening to the individual needs of MY baby and not a one-size-fits all solution I calmed down a lot and was able to get on with the task of tending to her needs until she was able to self settle in her own time. She is such a confident, happy and well rested baby now. And so is the rest of the family. Do what suits.
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hi baby zz, very
important to do whats right for your family…totally agree..but equally important to know there is a solution out there also if you are fragile and struggling with a sleepless bub . all the best to you.
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your solution Elizabeth increases the amount of cortisol to the brain. Does it work permanently? NO. You must revisit it.
So, is this the BEST solution? I cannot answer that for each family. All I can say is that we MUST make INFORMED decisions about this and your not INFORMING any parent on cortisol etc. You are simply telling them it is a magic wand!
This is not fair. Parents NEED to know that they are POSSIBLY changing their childs NEUROCEMISTRY which can result in permanent damage to their frontal lobe and executive control functions. The TRUTH is this- our kids may be FINE- but some MAY NOT BE!!!!!!!! It is a risk we take, and making an informed decision is part of making that choice.
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Ooops accidently pressed thumbs up when I meant to reply.
Concerned, can you give details of the study/studies that confirm that sleeping programs cause a damaging increase of cortisol to the brain. (Apologies if you have done so earlier and I have missed it.) The information I have read says that prolonged crying increases the supply of cortisol to the brain. No program I know of advocates letting babies cry for a prolonged period. I have read studies that talk about mother responsiveness to her child and how consistent non-response can impact on a child’s IQ. However, no sleeping program I know of advocates non-response. In fact the opposite is true.
I am really happy you have obviously found a way of parenting that you are comfortable with. But I’m also glad there are people like Elizabeth out there to help those us who find ourselves in desperate situations.
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I wrote something below and accidently didnt put a name. It is under annonymous. I am honestly not judging. I did controlled crying myself out of sheer desperation as my son was waking up 8-15 times a night. Mind you, I did it for only 1 minute at a time lol.. But it worked after one night! I was literally going mad so I had to do it regardless of my ideals. HOWEVER, when he got a high fevor, I obviouolsy had to nuture him, and all that hard work went out the door. I realised that I had to revisit this time and time again. That is apparently true for every single person I have spoken to about this. Thats why I say, if it was just for the few nights, it would be worth the risk. But its usually something we would revisit at least 2, 3, 4, 5-10 times. It worked the first night for me. BUT, that was still a concern knowing what I know as someone studying psychology. This area of research has been pretty much non existent. But what we do know for sure is that a distressed child will have elevated cortisol levels. We have known this for a long time. I do not understand how you can say that a child crying for 5 minutes is NOT prolonged crying. That is prolonged in my eyes. The study below shows that distress even for one minute will elevate the amount of cortisol. Apparently, the mere anticipation of it will increase the amount of cortisol.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1305892/Six-month-old-babies-stressed-ignored-minutes-mothers.html
You are MISTAKEN when you say “no sleep program I know of advocate non response” It is EXACTLY what they are advocating. We ARE ignoring our childs cry for 1 minute, 2 minute-20 minutes. THAT IS ADVOCATING NON RESPONSIVENESS. Lets not deny the truth here. As I said, I am NOT judging. I am simply saying it how it is. We are NOT responding to them at controlled intervals because a well intenioned sleep trainer tells us it will not do harm. They do not know this. We do not know this.
At the end of the day, we may think that 5,10, 15, 20 minutes is NOT long, but I really do not believe that is how a baby would feel. They have only been in this world for a short time, so 10 minutes to them may feel like 10 hours…I think 20 minutes is a very long time in my opinion.
Sleep is important for everyone. please read the post I wrote below. I think that BOTH sides of this debate can be dangerous. However, we need to be making an informed decision about what we do, and Elizabeth is not informing parents on the possible dangers and especially cortisol. As I said below, I can see her intentions are honourable and I like Mia’s energy. This is not about judgement. Its about having all the information at hand and basing our decisions on that.
My solution was this-I allowed my son to cry whilst I laid down next to him. I kept nurturing him and loving him. But, did not rock him or give him the boob. After one night, he slept for 7 hours straight. He now only wakes up 3-4 times. That is managebale to me, as he has a feed and goes straight back to sleep. I go to univeristy ( am on a break now), plus write a blog and am writting my first book. So I am very busy. I have enough energy most days to cope with the sleep I get. I am also fit and run for miles on end
Please understand that I am not judgeing. I am merely concerned with this method that has become the most popular parenting method of the west and we really do not know the ramifications of yet… As I said, I would be all for it if it was that magic wand and only ever had to be done for those few days, but if we are honest here, that is unlikely for the majority. So maybe, a less intense technique along with a major shift in our attitudes towards our babies would suffice during these vulnerable years
http://www.explorenewheights.com
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Ok here is the basic premise of what seemed to result in good solid sleeps for my two:
* Basic Guidelines
First feed always between 6am-7am
During the day feed every 3 hours – yes I woke them
Follow sleep / feed / play rhythm
“Cluster feed” between 4:30pmish – 7pm
Last feed 6:40pm bottle of formula if you are BF
Demand feed during the night
* Cluster period in arvo looked like this;
3/4pm Milk feed or arvo tea if on food
5pm Milk feed
5:30/6pm Milk feed or dinner
6pm bath
Last feed 6:40pm formula if you are BF (I was)
* Night Time – very business-like ploise!
No lights
No noise
Snuggle if you like (I like) but no playing
Leave wrap on
Only change nappy if there is a poo or they’ve wet through
We did encourage self-settling techniques after an overseas trip with several other babies. We were home for ten days and our firstborn was happy with nine breasstfeeds a day, five of them overnight. I was not! That was enough motivation for us to introduce solids and tweak a few other things.
I agree that every family has to work out what they are most comfortable with. And I’m probably due for a baby who won’t roll with this approach!
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Really enjoyed watching this.
I’m wondering what Elizabeth’s thoughts are on teething and its impact on sleep? My daughter was the opposite to what she speaks about here – she slept through brilliantly for the first few months (6 hours a night at first, then 10 hours a night from 5 weeks – don’t hate me!) but then, once she started teething she was shocking. Waking every hour or every half an hour when teeth were cutting through. Then, in between teeth, she’d sleep fine again, but as soon as they started moving she’d once again wake lots. She’s still doing this (but waking a few times a night rather than constantly) now that she’s cutting her two-year-old molars.
I know some experts don’t believe in teething having an impact on sleep – what do you think, Elizabeth?
Thanks!
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Great question Megan. I adore Robyn Barker’s books but the one area in which we will agree to disagree is her assertion that teething doesn’t cause babies any pain or discomfort and doesn’t cause any side effects.
My personal experience with my own children has proven to me otherwise almost conclusively!
I wonder what other MM readers have found…..
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I agree – Barker’s Babylove book is fantastic but her assertion that teething made no difference to sleep didn’t accord with my experience of my baby. Whenever we had a disrupted few nights (lots of crying every few hours and lots of unsettled waking), we would inevitably find that a tooth/teeth would have broken through or near breaking through. Once the tooth emerged, she would go back to sleeping well. I think teething can discomfort for babies and as a result interfere with their ability to settle and sleep soundly.
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I’m pretty sure I read an interview or an article where RB clarified her position on this.
She said she was against parents dismissing runny noses, runny poos, temperatures or changes in temperaments and sleep patterns as ‘teething’. She believed it was risky not getting such symptoms checked out. Or something like that.
Nobody quote me.
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I adore Barker and thik she is spot on with regards to teething. Of course there are going to be times when teeth coincide with nappy rash, grumpiness, drooling (although mine has drooled non-stop since he was born!). COincidence doesn’t meant causation.
For example see this study (references at the bottom):
Infant Teething Study
Does tooth eruption lead to “teething” symptoms?
To find out, we followed 210 children (aged 6 months – 2 years at the start of the study) at thirty childcare centres for 7 months. Each weekday parents and childcare workers filled in a questionnaire for each child asking if in the past 24 hours they had had any of seven “symptoms” commonly thought to be associated with teething. In addition a trained dental therapist took each child’s temperature and looked in their mouths for signs of tooth eruption. We also surveyed parents in the community and five groups of child health professionals regarding their beliefs about infant teething.
We found that parents and child health professionals believe teething causes a range of symptoms, some minor, some more serious. However, results from our study suggested that tooth eruption does not actually cause the common symptoms reported by parents and childcare workers. It suggested that young children do drool, get grumpy, sleep poorly etc – but that these aren’t actually related to teething. Older infants and toddlers experience frequent minor illness and rapid developmental change, including the emergence of teeth. It appears these symptoms may just be more common at these ages, coinciding with the age at which teeth erupt.
This is important to know for two reasons. First, if your child is having problems such as sleeping poorly, don’t just put it down to teething – get some help for the sleep. Secondly, some symptoms commonly attributed to teething (eg fever and infection) should always be checked by a health professional – they may need treatment quickly, and should never be put down to teething.
Methodology: Longitudinal study
Date: Start: 1997
Finish: 1998
Funding: Research Institute
Royal Children’s Hospital Research Foundatio
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I also don’t believe in teething, I think it is an excuse for parents with bad sleepers.
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HI EVERYONE, back again..after a night of spreading the Gift of sleep…need to be honest above is the most frequently asked question..here is my SPIN.. teething does account for grizzling ..nappy rash..droooling but in terms of waking bubs at night NO.. only becomes prob aroung 2.5yrs those big MOLARS that arrive at back.
Another point to remember megan is if bub waking frequently everynite then you cant always say Tetthing…more about them not having the gift of self settelling..
AGREE….also with MIA.. Robyn Barker is wonderful her no nonsense advice and style is refreshing…we are all lucky to have her words of wisdom…have a beautiful day..x
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Thanks Mia, Elizabeth, and other readers for your thoughts. Really interesting.
Agree that all parents need to be careful not to dismiss health issues as ‘teething’ – absolutely. Not sure about the coincidence. My daughter slept through every night, except when teething, which seems a big coincidence with every tooth. Having said that, you never know!
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Can I firstly say – just do whatever works at the moment. Deal with any other issues later.
This is just what worked for me. My first two babies slept through (full 12 hour nights) at 5 and 7 weeks respectively. I followed the same type of routine for my 3rd baby and he didn’t sleep through for a long night (more than 6 hours at a time) until 5.5 months. It nearly did my head in! I was expecting him to sleep through earlier because that’s what the first two did. It just goes to show, what works for some, doesn’t work for others.
The first thing that helped me was to start teaching my newborn the difference between day and night by feeding differently during the day to feeding at night, start this from their first day. All my babies were breastfed exclusively. I fed whenever they wanted between 6am and 6pm, but no longer than 4 hours between feeds. At night, from 6pm to 6am, I only fed if they woke and didn’t go back to sleep.
When I put them down to sleep during the day, I left the curtains open so that the room was brighter than night time.
A baby will not spontaneously self-combust if left to cry for only 5 minutes. You can quickly learn the difference between a cry of pain or distress, and a tired cry. If I thought the baby was crying because he was tired, I would leave him for 5 minutes before going to him. Crying often leads to sleep within that 5 minutes. Listening to a baby crying will feel like hours when it’s only been minutes so you need to check your watch as soon as the baby starts crying and go to the baby right on the 5 minutes mark. If the baby’s crying slows down before 5 minutes, leave them right up to the 5 minutes because this could mean they’re slowing down to go to sleep.
Apart from these thoughts, get all the help you can, sleep when the baby sleeps, get someone to take your toddler at sleep time so that you can catch up on some sleep.
PS: Can I just add my story of desperation? When my first baby was only a few weeks old, I was SO desperate for her to go to sleep and she would only fall asleep on the boob. One night, I got up to feed her during the night and when she finally fell asleep, I put her in the basinette. She woke up when I put her down so I left her in the basinette and str-etch-ed my boob down into the basinette and fed her that way until she fell asleep! As I said before, whatever works!!!
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I love nothing more than DETAILED explanations by other mothers of what they did. Thanks for this.
And hilarious about stretching your boob.
I got into some pretty wacky positions trying to ‘dislodge’ my mastitis (you’re meant to have the baby’s chin pointing towards the lump/blockage because this is the area of the boob that is most thoroughly drained).
And there were nights when I got IN the cot and fell asleep there next to the baby with my knees up somewhere around my chin……
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I got in the cot too Mia – a few times, whatever works….
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LOVE IT! I was a human dummy 24/7 and rocked my daughter to sleep 16 hours a day for 10 weeks. I didn’t think of getting into the cot – that would have been good!
We all do it – if someone had suggested jamming a banana up my nose would make her sleep I totally would have tried it.
Absolutely right – whatever works! When it doesn’t work THEN you look for alternatives.
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Oh god I remember 3 hour mastitis-lump-dislodging-feeds: truly awful!
Squished into a corner on all fours with one leg hanging off the bed…trying to get an exhausted baby to latch on to a SHOCKINGLY painful boob…other boob leaking in sympathy…feverish and delirious… oh the joy and dignity of motherhood!
My repeated bouts of mastitis sucked balls, but I got lucky in the sleep department: all 3 kids were sleeping through by 3 months and have kept it up. Did controlled crying at 6 mths with the first as I was in the habit of him falling asleep on the boob. The others were put into a routine fairly early: similar to “Because I’m the Mum”( big believer in differentiating between day and night feeds/sleeps): worked for us.
Parents have enough to worry about: feeling guilty for leaving their kids to cry is ridiculous.
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Hi Elizabeth,
How do we contact you if we are interested in having you come to our home?
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I put her email address at the end of the video but I know many mothers are so tired they missed it!
giftofsleep@gmail.com
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HI. laura, HAPPY to talk…am around again..after being on nites giving the Gift…so Great to see all you girls sharing thoughts
..just beautiful…
SISTERHOOD…… X
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I am so relieved to hear the Murdoch Institute’s research findings today as I agonised over whether or not to sleep train my first daughter. I kept thinking “what if they are right and she won’t trust me?”. At 18 months I just couldn’t function anymore and I took the s-l-o-w approach which I hoped was more gentle (and it mildly alleviated my guilt): sat beside cot, face down for two nights, moved 2m away from the cot every second night until I was in the doorway and then out of the doorway but within earshot with soothing ‘sssshh’ noises. It took about 6 weeks all up but my darling daughter eventually got used to settling herself but to this day (she is three and a half) if she wakes at night she will call for me to come in and tuck her back in. This happens at least once a night and can be three or four if having bad dreams or is sick. Even with this research result I am still cautious and would rather get up to her than let her think I am not going to come if she calls. Not yet anyway. I couldn’t afford a baby whisperer, I did look into it, but ended up having to hit the books and go it alone. My husband was sick and couldn’t help either. It has been a long and sometimes lonely road. But since Maddy is the joy of my life, worth it. For al you mums out there having sleepless nights, take comfort in the fact that you are not alone – so many women are just not honest about what really happens in their own homes.. Elizabeth’s loving but no nonsense approach seems to be just the ticket – you can do it. I am four weeks from having my second bub and am hoping she sleeps better than Maddy. But now, I can safely say if I am still getting no sleep at 6 months I will know what to do and won’t hesitate to start a sleep training program. Thank goodness for the Murdoch Institute. How wonderful are they?
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They are wonderful Tracy…..we are so lucky MIA is about to promote these great studies…all the best with new baby…x
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I was extremely fortunate when my child had sleep issues to have a sister who was a mothercraft nurse working at a sleep school and I will always be eternally grateful for her assistance. My son was rocked to sleep until five months at which point I caught the flu and decided the catnapping and rocking during a 45 heatwave with no aircon was enough! It took six weeks of leaning over a cot, shushhing and patting at that 45 minute mark to get him out of his habit but he turned a corner at 7 months and has been sleeping great ever since, (mind you he’s about to go into a bed and I’m dreading what that will entail)!
To have the resource of someone who can tell you when to stop offering breast feeds at night, what sort of routine they should be in or heading towards or simple things you don’t think will be issues like weaning them off a wrap was great but should be available to anyone who’s struggling. We don’t live in a society where “it takes a community to raise a baby” anymore and I feel for those parents who have little to no support. There were books that seemed to follow similar methods like Save My Sleep and Sheyne Rowley’s Dream Baby Guide, (which I had to buy twice I might add since I was so sleep deprived when I first bought it I left it on the roof of the car and drove off)!
With my second child due next year I am praying that I get a great sleeper this time but I just don’t think my husband and I have the right genetics. I’m hoping that it was all the rocking that did me in last time but I don’t know whether I have the heart to tell people to put down my sleeping child least of all doing it myself!
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My third child is almost three weeks old. My first two (almost 7 and 3 years) sleep really well at night, and I used controlled crying to help both of them to learn to go to sleep. I never let them fall asleep in my arms or knowingly did anything that would make it harder for them to fall asleep on their own.
My difficulty is this: Baby number 3 was diagnosed with silent reflux when two days old. I have to hold her upright for half an hour after every feed. During the day I make sure she is awake when I put her to bed so that she can learn to self settle (although I do sometimes use a dummy – dummies can help refluxy babies keep it all down with the constant swallowing – though yes, it is an external sleep aid). However, at night she often falls asleep in my arms and then after the half hour is up I put her to bed. I know this is starting a bad habit, but what am I to do?
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hi prue, silent reflux is a tricky journey for our babies…good new is they all outgrow it eventually and become happy thriving bubs…i would have thought safer and less habit forming way of keeping her upright is to place safely in rockerchair close by with strap on…dont need to unwrap…and let her nap there until ready to transfer..
This way you have hands free for rest of the family..especially during rush hour at night…………best of luck
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Thanks for the advice Elizabeth. I will give it a try!
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I tried it. We had a happy baby who fell asleep in the rocker. And then she transferred to her cot fine. Thanks Elizabeth! : )
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