Do You Like This Story?

Do you ever wish you had a wife? I do.  A wife would be nice. A proper one. Not like the kind of wife I am. Anyway, this isn’t a post about wives it’s a post about mothers. Gay mothers.

According to a recent study, children of lesbian parents may actually fare better than children raised by a straight mum and dad in traditional roles.

The study inspired an article in Time which read in part:

lesbian mothers 206x300 If one mum is good, are two mums better?

The start of a very happy life?

The teen years are never the easiest for any family to navigate. But could they be even more challenging for children and parents in households headed by gay parents?

That is the question researchers explored in the first study ever to track children raised by lesbian parents, from birth to adolescence. Although previous studies have indicated that children with same-sex parents show no significant differences compared with children in heterosexual homes when it comes to social development and adjustment, many of those investigations involved children who were born to women in heterosexual marriages, who later divorced and came out as lesbians.

The authors found that children raised by lesbian mothers — whether the mother was partnered or single — scored very similarly to children raised by heterosexual parents on measures of development and social behavior. These findings were expected, the authors said; however, they were surprised to discover that children in lesbian homes scored higher than kids in straight families on some psychological measures of self-esteem and confidence, did better academically and were less likely to have behavioral problems, such as rule-breaking and aggression.

The article goes on to explain some of the theories that  researchers (Nanette Gatrell and Henry Bos) have come up with to explain their survey results.

It’s not clear exactly why children of lesbian mothers tend to do better than those in heterosexual families on certain measures. But after studying gay and lesbian families for 24 years, Gartrell has some theories. “They are very involved in their children’s lives,” she says of the lesbian parents. “And that is a great recipe for healthy outcomes for children. Being present, having good communication, being there in their schools, finding out what is going on in their schools and various aspects of the children’s lives is very, very important.”

Although active involvement isn’t unique to lesbian households, Gartrell notes that same-sex mothers tend to make that kind of parenting more of a priority. Because their children are more likely to experience discrimination and stigmatization as a result of their family circumstances, these mothers can be more likely to broach complicated topics, such as sexuality and diversity and tolerance, with their children early on. Having such a foundation may help to give these children more confidence and maturity in dealing with social differences and prejudices as they get older.

What are your thoughts? Mine are that gender is immaterial when it comes to parenting. Two straight married parents and a white picket fence is no guarantee of anything. Good parents come in a wide variety of configurations….

What’s your experience…?

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If you require support or information on same sex parenting please contact Rainbow Families Council, a Victorian-based volunteer organisation working for equality for same-sex parented families.

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95 Comments so far

  1. Onola

    It’s interesting to note all the male bashing and man-hating in these comments. So apparently it’s not only acceptable but mandatory to condemn/criticize someone on the basis of their gender. Amazing. It’s wrong to hate gays/lesbians, but perfectly acceptable to hate men.

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  2. Sarah Whyte

    Hi,
    I am writing an article on same sex parenting for the Sun Herald newspaper, Sydney. I am looking for a case study of a same sex coule with a chid who would be willing to be interviewed and photographed. Please email me at swhyte@fairfexmedia.com.au ASAP or call me (02) 9282 2815. The case study has to be within NSW.
    Thanks again- Sarah

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  3. BecauseI'mtheMum

    I know it’s been said 1000 times already, but I’ll say it again. I think it’s better for a child to have two parents who love him, who wanted him, who intentionally got pregnant to have him, no matter what their sex or relationship. A child needs love, and a parent needs the support of a second parent. Let’s not judge each other, as parents we should all be supporting each other.

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  4. donna

    Is it wrong that I was secretly dissapointed not to find any gay couples among the parents at my daughters new school?

    I have absolutley full acceptance of people of all sexual orientation and support both gay marriage and their right to have children and raise a family. I have no doubt that gay/lesbian couples would make amazing parents due to the overwhelming desire to start a family and the extra drama’s they have to go through such as the story Mia posted a few weeks back about the gay men and their adorable twin girls.

    But again…I do wish I knew a couple personally to comment. All my gay friends are either single or too young to settle down.

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  5. Sal

    As a child my mum was in a lesbian relationship and while I do beleive that all that kids needs is a loving and safe environment to grow up in- regarless of the gender of their parents- this situation did cause a lot of anxieties for me. I feared telling people at school and grew up feeling very alienated and with very low self confidence. I think it is important for a child to have a male role model and a father that they feel loved by.

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    • Ms Twitchy

      Sal…I’m sorry you had this experience. I do wonder though if this feeling is perhaps because at that time, yours may have been the only family you knew in this situation, and therefore you felt more judged and alone? Today it’s becoming more common so no doubt there are support groups out there, and it seems to me that gay parents of today are really making an effort to keep ongoing relationships with adults of the other gender for the sake of their kids as well.

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    • Nicky

      Hey Sal, I hope you can now feel proud that your mum was able to be honest about her feelings, despite the hardship wider society caused you. This is what I can’t understand really – how people are so ready to allow children to suffer as a result of their prejudices and fear, or whatever it is that causes people to hate in so many different ways.

      Things are different now in some parts of society, but in so many places – most really – they are the same. There’s still tittering about same-sex couples, things are called “gay” if they’re bad, my 28 year old step-daughter says she doesn’t have any gay friends and still thinks it’s funny to see same-sex couples. It is hard to stand up to this exclusion, even if the exclusion isn’t graffiti on your wall and being yelled at. A friend of mine had her house graffit-ed for helping to run a gay Arts event – this was 10 years ago and things aren’t so different now. Another friend of mine lives with her lover and partner and her parents still ask her when she is going to realise there’s no future in being with a woman.

      It still takes guts. I hope you can find strength from that.

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  6. Evey Mercedes

    I have two mums. Never did me any harm, although kids will be cruel. We all love each other.

    There were lots of strong male and female role models (uncles, grandparents, my – largely absent, but loving – father) around when I was growing up.

    I feel like I’m a pretty balanced and reasonable human being ;-)

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  7. Snowhite

    I agree with Mia re: gender is immaterial when it comes to parenting. My friend’s parents were together for quite some time before the relationship broke down and her father announced he was gay. Unfortunately he was a lousy father as a heterosexual male and equally lousy as a homosexual man.

    The findings are quite interesting to me. I would think how a child is raised would all come down to the individuals who parented the child though, and so only see the value of this study in terms of convincing/reassuring people that lesbians can be capable and even better parents than other couples…

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  8. sarah

    that picture you posted is horrible. take it down, it is offensive.

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    • mizanthrop

      huh??

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    • Bravette

      What is offensive about it?

      My friend is a photographer for these types of pregnancy photos and the women who are her subjects or request them really love the outcome.

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    • Kris2040

      Wha? The only pictures that are posted on this thread are a happy family to be and a happy family. What is offensive about that?

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      • mizanthrop

        both of which are beautiful

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    • Snowhite

      Your comment is offensive.

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    • Jac

      Don’t feed the troll guys

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    • Eliska Jeffrey

      Jealous ?

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  9. Rachel

    Parents are parents…they come in good and unfortunately bad regardless of gender.
    But what was with the smart crack about having a “wife”?

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  10. Sam

    I agree that gender is immaterial when it comes to good parenting.

    In my experience, however, those who have triumphed in the face of personal issues are extremely compassionate people. This may or may not have anything to do with the academic success of their children, but surely a compassionate parent is a good thing.

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  11. rainbow

    i have no doubt that two women committed to each other and to going through a (relatively) complicated process of actually falling pregnant would make good parents. it makes perfect sense.

    on the other note, i would love another wife! i have wondered, and perhaps someone living as two wives/women could answer, is it as great as it sounds? two people capable of multi-tasking, nurturing and generally being female living in the same house…. gosh anything must be possible!!

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    • nico

      i hate to disappoint you, but i’m a shocking multi-tasker, as is my girlfriend! ha ha. i frequently walk into/fall over things when i’m trying to do several things at once :) i always put that notion in the same area as ‘having sex with women would be more sensual and emotional because we’re emotional beings’….not so much! that makes it sound like we’re all just face holding and talking about our feelings.
      although two girls in the house is better around PMS time, it’s nice to have someone who knows what you’re going through, unlike my friend’s boyfriend who still thinks you can ‘turn it off like a tap’, oh dear.

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      • Sparky

        Hey nico, ‘face holding and talking about our feelings’ cracked me up. Love it!

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        • Anonymous

          i always laugh at it :) makes me think of that sex and the city episode, where samantha is dating a lesbian and complains ‘all we ever do is take baths and talk about our feelings!’ which sounds so horrible to me, ha ha!

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          • nico

            oh, that was me, sorry! procrastinating from work :)

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      • Steph

        As two mums of a little boy, all I know is that all the other heterosexual mothers in our local mother’s group are envious of my partner and I. Most have expressed the wish they had a “wife”, and by that they mean that their partners were equally as involved and supportive as they were in raising their children – and unfortunately that’s mostly not the case.

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        • Sarah Whyte

          Hi Steph,
          Would you be willing to be in a Sun Herald article about your family? We are after a case study family and your story sounds like it would fit very well! Please email me at swhyte@fairfaxmedia.com.au or call me on (02) 9282 2815 ASAP (deadline 23 July) if you are interested. Best Wishes, Sarah

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      • rainbow

        oh no! i totally expected a spotless, organised house, with fights over who would cook dinner ;)
        having someone that understands pms would be amazing, i’d imagine there would be a good supply of nurofen and chocolate around that time too!

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        • mizanthrop

          The PMS aspect sounded a bit scary to me actually.

          If your cycle syncs with your partners (which in some ways would be fairly convenient ;-) ) you’d both get PMS at the same time… And if you get PMS the way I do (completely-unreasonable-wild-eyed-screaming-banshee) that could get ugly.

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          • Dina

            I’ve got to admit, two women in the house having PMS at the same time (which doesn’t generally happen with us – our cycles are too stubborn to sync, I guess) is not all sunshine and roses, at least in my experience. My partner’s and my likelihood of having a screaming row about something utterly insignificant is much higher at those times! Luckily, the makeup process is pretty easy – “Um, sweetie, I think we both know what that was…”

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        • nico

          there is always freddos! and we never run out of painkillers and there’ll be someone to steal tampons off if you forgot to buy some.
          definately one of the many reasons i love being a lesbian :) ha ha.

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  12. nico

    I love these studies, they make me so happy :) it’s funny though, whilst my ex girlfriend is so excited to find the perfect girl, get married and have many babies, me and my current girlfriend are the least maternal people around, and can’t wait to buy a dog! ha ha. different strokes etc. Much like the gay marriage debate, however, i’m 90% sure that isn’t for me, but that doesn’t mean i wouldn’t like the chance to consider it seriously, least of all spousal privelages, taxes and so on. i’m just one of the lucky ones, as my girlfriend’s family loves me and vice versa; should she be in an accident and be taken to hospital, for example, i would be allowed in with her, in some cases the family can restrict visits and so on. ugh. rage.

    although, the whole ‘i’d love a wife’ is kind of hilarious. many lesbians i know, particularly in a butch/femme coupling (forgive me, it’s the majority of couples i know rather than femme/femme butch/butch etc) will still have a little bit of heteronormative gender action going on, the femme cooking more and so on. i chalk it up to many straight women always saying ‘we’d always stop to ask for directions’ and ‘women are just more emotional and sensual than men’. ha ha. it doesn’t always work like that ladies!

    oh, lord. essay. sorry.

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  13. StellaOrbit

    My parents, two women, were together for 24 years. They ‘ran away’ together in 1984 when I was 9. My sister (who is my biological sister was 6, my brother who is my brother, but not biologically mine, was 8).
    The debates about whether or not two mums or two men or one of each make better parents always make me laugh.
    It doesn’t really matter which parents you have, or what gender they are. It is entirely a matter of “WHO” they are.

    The parents you have are a result of them having the children they deserve.

    Whether or not they have children and then create go on to make a blended family, my experience, or create their own children – their parenting skills are still a result of who they are.

    I had my first child almost seven months ago. My parenting skills are a result of who I am. And the parenting I received will affect my child. I am glad of this. I learned many many things from both my mothers. And different things.

    There is one thing I know, that my parents, my mothers, loved each other and us, was the single most important part of my upbringing and their parenting.

    My mother’s partner died in January 2008 of breast cancer after a 12 year fight. It was the single saddest day of my life. Her funeral was a celebration of a lifetime of achievement and of not following conventional norms.

    The legacy she left behind was three young people in their twenties and thirties who had had the best most profound childhoods and the most challenging ones, to their benefit.

    It wasn’t always easy. We were sometimes ostracised. Sometimes mocked. But in the long run none of us would have changed it.

    Children need parents who love them and love each other. That’s all. It doesn’t matter who they are, only that they do their best for their children and themselves.

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    • two happy mums

      so well said, love the last line :)

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  14. Eilis

    As a lesbian mum myself I agree with the points Kat has made. Mostly I just wish our opponents (who, thankfully, are these days fewer and further between) could see how thoroughly ordinary (ie boring) our lives are! We live out here in the suburbs, we have a mortgage, we worry about childcare places and interest rates, we cotinually juggle with work/life balabnce, we want our daughter to have good adult role models, we want her to be happy and inquisitive and caring and kind. I just don’t see how we are any different to our straight friends with kids.

    Thanks Mia for posting this article and generating a bit of discussion.

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    • Kris2040

      You should enter that photo in the HP contest! What a happy family! :)

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    • One confused girl...

      What a beautiful photo! I couldn’t agree with you more… so many of the same challenges face lesbian mums.

      You are setting a great example. I only wish the best for you and your family!

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    • Eilis

      Credit where credit’s due – the photo was taken by the talented Louisa Bailey, a Melbourne photographer.

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  15. One confused girl...

    I am in my mid 20′s and I’ve had two long term relationships with women. I’ve recently come out of a five year relationship with the love of my life because of this very issue.

    Reading this post has made me feel very differently about the traditional view of what constitutes a family. Whether that be two mums, two dads, a single parent or a heterosexual couple. I have always felt that gay parents shouldn’t be discriminated against in terms of having their own children. Being a good parent isn’t based on gender – it is based on unconditional love, support, guidance, encouragement and providing a safe and happy environment for that child to grow up in.

    I am slightly envious of the gay women and gay men who are so sure in themselves that this is the correct path for them. Although I have only had two serious relationships in my life (both with women) I do consider myself – bisexual. I am attracted to both sexes – emotionally and physically, and I wouldn’t say one is greater than the other. This is the biggest conundrum for me.

    My ex-partner who I still share an extremely close bond with isn’t so sure about raising a child in a same-sex relationship. Heck, she hasn’t come out to her parents yet! I don’t think she is bisexual which has stopped her I guess from telling people about our relationship. Our close friends and my family know we were together which has always supported me.

    My predicament is my future. I am so terribly scared of embarking on another same-sex relationship as much as I am scared of a heterosexual relationship. I don’t have much experience with men (which only deepens my attraction to the opposite sex) – and I worry whether I will ever be happy…

    I have always known that I’ve wanted to be a mother. More so recently I look at pregnant women and envy them, I dream about having my own children, I lay awake in bed fantasising about parenthood and raising my own children. I worry that if I fall in love with another woman that I may never have children.

    I guess this post is sending the wrong message – that I think only a heterosexual couple can raise a family which is not true. I am speaking more about my personal experience and the reality that it may be easier (physically, emotionally, financially) to have children with a man.

    Well, I’ve just poured my heart out there. Forgive me – I am a bundle of confusion.

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    • Jac

      You are clearly going through a very confusing and scary period in your life, I really feel for you.

      At the risk of sounding like I’m treating your concerns flippantly (which I definitely am not), I think many of your issues apply for lots of heterosexual women too – desperately wanting children, but not being in a relationship, or being in a relationship with someone (i.e. a man) who isn’t ready or may never be ready for kids; also having limited experience with men (that’s an issue for many women in their mid 20′s); and worrying that you will never be happy (this applies to almost everyone at some point through their mid 20′s I think!).

      I think the fact that your ex isn’t sure about parenting in a same-sex relationship has given you a slightly skewed view on things – there are plenty of lesbians out there who are as sure as you about wanting kids – and plenty who have already successfully done it!

      I guess what I’m trying to say is, don’t choose your next partner based on their gender, and the (perhaps false) assumption that having children will therefore be easier with this person. Choose your next partner (be it male or female) based on how much you care for them, and know that, if you both want children enough, it will happen for you whether you are a gay or hetero couple.

      You WILL be happy if you choose to be – have a great life! x

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      • Rose

        Thank you so much for your kind words. I am in a bit of a bad state at the moment… and you have made me realise that perhaps I need to just take one day at a time.

        Have a great day! xx

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  16. Holly

    I have found that children of gay or lesbian parents to be more open and tolerant in general. In my experience.

    However I don’t this guarantees balanced children, and children of straight parents aren’t necessarily worse off.

    I think it is important that people read this information. It puts things in perspective and squashes some myths about same-sex parenting.

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  17. ursula

    I my mum is a lesbian, and i lived between my mum’s house and my dad’s (with his new wife. i had three mums!).
    and i turned out tolerant, caring (despite having been teased for my family circumstances)and i’m definately not a rule breaker!
    i think having such a big female influence was a great thing.

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  18. mistymoo

    I have lesbian friends who have had four babies between them, through IVF. same father for all four – he’s a (heterosexual) family friend, married with his own children. these two women are fabulous, loving, fun parents and a lot of the reason is that they are very “equal” and fair in terms of the domestic and childcare stuff – it’s not just left to one of them, they both work and they both do the domestic duties as well. i think it’s the main reason they cope so well with four very young children close together. hetero couples (men – ahem! – listen up) could learn a good lesson from my gay friends about a fair division of housework/childcare and how it creates a happy harmonious home for children to grow up in.

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    • zelicat

      agree, agree agree- like Mia I could do with a wife!

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  19. Camille

    No – of course two mums aren’t better – just as two dads aren’t better – just as a mum and a dad isn’t better…..if the people are incapable…… number of parents raising a child means nothing as does the sex of that person/ those people…..love, support, leadership, care, stability is what matters.

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  20. Tolmie

    The only experience I can comment on: our household provided occassional respite foster care for a young boy, who’s permanent foster carers are lesbians. This young boy is extremely intelligent, articulate, creative and well-adjusted. Which I have to admit surprised us. Not because he was raised by a lesbian couple, but because of the trauma he had experienced and continued to experience during access visits with his mother, her abusive husband, and his six other siblings. Three of this young boy’s other siblings were put into residential care as no foster carers could manage their behaviour. Yet this young boy was truly a little angel and brought great joy to our household. We spent short periods of time with his permanent carers, which was long enough for us to marvel at their parenting style.

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  21. PG

    Well, in theory I agree with you Mia – but TWO of my mother??? That would drive me bonkers :)

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    • milumi3

      Forget two of my mother….what about 2 x MY MOTHER IN-LAW!!!!!

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      • Evil Cupcake

        Oh lord, I just fainted . . .

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        • Emma Cooper

          My husband has three! Mum, her partner and my step-mother. And overall our kids have 5 grandmothers… Don’t ask about mother’s day.

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  22. Bowerbird

    I’m not sure I properly understand the point of this research. I get that there is a lot of prejudice out there, and it is good to counter that with some objective research. I can’t think of any reason why children of lesbian parents would do any worse, on average, than other kids. And I would imagine that’s pretty easy to demonstrate.

    What I don’t really see is how they can definitively say that children of gay parents do better than others. There are so many variables within and between families, how can they control those to isolate the effect of parents’ gender?

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    • Annie

      I think the point of this research is that there are many people in society who say they don’t ‘agree’ with or ‘believe’ in gay people being parents. They often cite their own research that children need a biological Mum and Dad to thrive.

      I agree that that there are many variables within and between families and measurements of ‘success’ in children are flawed but sophisticated qualitative research is always going to be more informative than anecdotal evidence which is often used to hit gay parents over the head with.

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  23. Kat

    I am about to embark on parenthood (identical twins due in December) and like any prospective parent I have very good intentions…my thoughts/musings on the subject as a gay girl partnered up with the loveliest of lovelies are:

    1. Studies like this don’t “threaten” the traditional family unit. Gay relationships are in the minority and gay parents do not think there will be “superior outcomes” with their parenting, rather they hope to be the best they can be and it does involve explaining things to children and being comfortable/confident with your explanation earlier on than other parents which may explain why their children then have to be socially confident and mature when dealing with prejudice in the community.

    2. It’s not necessarily an easy road to become a parent – so by the time a gay girl conceives she (and partner) have normally got sorted/organised/lined up all their ducks/dealt with any issues and really want to be actively involved in their children’s lives. It’s not like we arrive at parenthood accidentally…

    3. Gender is not irrelevant but our children will have plenty of male role models actively involved in their lives (a grandfather, 5 uncles and a stack of friends) and what is gender anyway? That traditional father figure to kick the footy around? Well I can kick a footy better than my 6’1″ blokey brother so I don’t think my children will suffer too much. I think traditional gender roles are dated and not really suited to modern life. I think it is important to have parents (or a parent for those single parents out there) who are happy, confident, financially independent, hard working etc (all very gender non-specific qualities) and fantastic role models than the “prince charming” will arrive and look after you model.

    Anyway, those are just my random musings on the subject – I don’t think 2 mums is “better” or superior but it has some positives and shouldn’t be looked down upon.

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    • mizanthrop

      Best of luck with those Christmas babies Kat!

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    • KJ

      Sounds like you and your partner are building a fabulous family! Congratulations.

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    • One confused girl...

      I agree with you Kat. Two gay women or two gay men do not stumble across parenthood accidentally because of a drunken encounter or a broken condom.

      The child/children are desperately wanted and carefully planned. Usually a lot of money is poured into making the dream become a reality. I applaud you for breaking the mold and embarking on parenthood with your partner.

      I think people forget that just because you have a mother and a father that you are suddenly in a loved and safe environment. This is hardly the case – 1 in 3 marriages end in divorce and many children are raised solely by one parent.

      I think it is time that this country is ruled by its people, not by religion. Politics and religion are two separate entities and they do not mix well together. We live in a different society now and its about bloody time the law caught up with it. Whether this will be realised in our lifetime is an entirely different matter.

      Best of luck to you and your partner. Christmas babies! Perhaps December 23 on my birthday? ;)

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  24. Anonymous

    Not sure if anyone else has said this, but what about 2 gay dads? Where is the article on that?

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  25. Ms Twitchy

    This may be slightly off topic, but I am curious by nature and don’t have any gay friends who’ve become parents *together* to ask. So can someone please tell me – what do kids who have been brought up from birth or adopted by same sex parents, call their parents? Is one either ‘Mum’ or ‘Dad’ and the other parent a nickname or something? Or something different again? It feels a bit of a silly question to ask, but I’ve always wondered. Sorry if it’s a bit ‘Duh’…but ‘Mummy’ and ‘Daddy’ are just givens around here…so enlighten me please! :)

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    • Kat

      Mum and Mum! Or Mum and mamma, or Mummy Kate and Mummy Jane, Mummy and Ommy (other mummy)…or…

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      • Ms Twitchy

        Thanks for that Kat, I do like ‘Ommy’, cute! And great to hear your news above. (I did think there would have to be 2 names- our kids have moments when they want one of us over the other. Also for knowing which one of you the kids are referring to when they start to talk to friends/ carers etc. My best :)

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      • Cerry

        I love Ommy. It’s so cute! I wonder if I can convince my future kids to call me that, even though they’ll only have one Mummy…

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      • Anonymous

        We started out with Mum/Mummy and Annie, the boys (now 7 & 9) switch between Mum and first name constantly – no big deal either way!

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        • Anonymous

          We are Mummy and Mama, and our kids regularly remind other people of the distinction if they can’t keep track :)

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    • Eilis

      In our family I am Mum and my (female) partner is Om.

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    • shell

      we have mummy and mummy. our son developed “other one mummy’ when he wanted a mummy other than the one present; but it was never fixed that one of us was mummy and other other “other one mummy”. Now that he’s older he adds our names if he wants to be specific. It works fine.

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    • Mish

      I’m a single mum, but my daughter has called me about 10 different names- Mum, Mumimi, Mummy,, Mishi, Mama… and she calls her Dad “Dida”. So I think you can creatively come up with some names that differentiate each mother. Who says you have to be “Mum”? Its just a name :)

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    • Dina

      I actually have some lesbian friends who just had a daughter… tummy mum is “Mom” (they’re American) and the other is Poppa.

      It really depends on the couple!

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  26. Lucyloo

    I agree Mia – parents come in all kinds of guises and being in a heterosexual relationship I would hope my children end up being socially aware, have high self-esteem and self confidence being nutured and fostered by both a male and female role model. Having said that, though, I am not surprised that, in this study, and notwithstanding all the issues raised about sample size etc, children of lesbian parents fare better than those of hetero-sexual parents. I hate stereotyping but…..women are generally more intuitive communicators than men and in my world communication is the key to raising confident, mature, socially aware children.

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  27. Anonymous

    is there any chance that because of the complexities of having a child in a same sex relationship (those involved in IVF), councelling etc, etc, etc therefore, parents showing such commitment to a process, that these children are really, really wanted, so every aspect of their lives is so important and doted upon? not saying other children from mother/father families aren’t really, really wanted, just that same sex children are treated as miracles…..medical miracles…

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    • AnonAnon

      I would also tend to agree. Those who have made medical & financial sacrifices to have a child, I would image are genuinely more likely to be involved in their upbringing than those children who weren’t necessarily planned.

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      • frockup

        sorry have to completely disagree with you here.

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    • Oopsyboops

      I just have to add my viewpoint here, which is slightly off topic. As a heterosexual mother who had 6 IVF cycles before conceiving our daughter, she is so very much wanted. And I feel anyone who has gone through infertility treatments would feel the same. But I also think the same is felt for people who conceive naturally and easily.
      It is one of my big mothers guilts. I look at her every day and marvel at how perfect her lips are, how blue her eyes are, how marvellous this creature is that medical science created. But do I think I’m a good mother? Hell no. As I type this I’m ignoring her (I think she’s playing happily, can’t hear any mischief so…). I get cross and need time away. And I feel so guilty and bad about myself for that. There have been some studies which show that levels of anxiety and PND are higher among IVF mothers and I think this is part of this. We feel like we should treasure and dote on every second, but they are still screaming puking whinging children.

      Back to this study, I think it shows that two stable, happy parents helps children, no matter thier gender.

      And now I can hear mischief, better go!

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  28. Simba

    I believe that gender is immaterial when it comes to parenting. I have several friends in same-sex relationships (both male) who I know would make excellent parents if they decided they wanted children, as would their partners. Same goes for people in defacto relationships. Just because they don’t conform to what society has defined over time as ‘a typical couple’ or ‘typical family’ doesn’t mean they are any less capable of being fantastic parents and creating a loving, stable family unit.

    There are fantastic and also not so great parents who are heterosexual. It’s a couples love, commitment (both to the children and the couples relationship) and ability to guide their children through life that is important, not someones relationship status or gender.

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  29. Shelly Stone

    Oh god. If I had two of the same mother, I think I would committed myself to some kind of institution years and years ago.

    In saying that, I think all gay people have the right to do all the same things straight couples do. Love should NOT be criminalised or vindicated they way straight love isn’t.

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  30. gosh golly

    Good parents definitely come in different guises, but I’m pretty skeptical about coming to that conclusion from this particular lot of research. There have been some significant scholarly criticisms raised about the study, including:

    1. Extremely small sample size
    2. Lesbian study participants were volunteers, rather than a random sample, and thus unlikely to be representative of the general population. It is not made clear how the control ‘hetero’ families were chosen, which is also problematic.
    3. Study results gathered by self-reporting, without cross-checking of objective outcomes. This can create significant bias – for example, results for the lesbian parents show no difference in any indicator between boys and girls, or in cases of parental separation. This is highly unusual, and the authors should have questioned or at least further analysed this finding.
    4. The study does not control for significant confounding factors, such as socio-economic status.

    There are other questions over it as well, not least of which revolve around the personal agendas of the study’s authors. You can check out the letters responding to the original publication at http://tinyurl.com/39ogvfx.

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    • Francesca

      I’m afraid I’m going to have to agree.

      Lesbian families today face a lot of pressure to make sure their kids are “normal”. No doubt they fight hard against the stereotypes they face to prove themselves. I think the lesbians families that put themselves forwards may do so knowing that they are succeeding in this respect.

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      • gosh golly

        Not only the study subjects, but the primary author – Nanette Gartrell is a lesbian parent and activist herself. But she has a huge personal and political agenda to push, and it’s really disappointing that in her rush to do so she has fudged things so blatantly…

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        • Nicky

          It might not be a great study, but if you look at the pschyological literature it’s not all mad ranting lesbians doing self-report studies – it’s everyone on topics from PTSD to child development.

          Criticise, but not demonise.

          Look at the study in itself. If we rejected all studies that were done by enthusiasts there wouldn’t be many left. Children’s fate in refugee camps is investigated by, surprise surprise, people deeply concerned for their welfare and often crusading for better treatment. Should we ignore their data, or just analyse it for its intrinsic value?

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          • gosh golly

            Demonise? Moi?

            THIS study in itself is badly flawed, end of story. You simply can’t prove the conclusions (or the ensuing headlines) from the data. What intrinsic value is left?

            And while I agree that author interests do not necessarily create bias, it is important to disclose them. Particularly in a case like this where one is forced to ask, what factors might motivate a researcher to release statistically unsound work?

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            • Nicky

              What motivates researchers to release unsound work is usually time, career and institutional pressures.

              I think you have demonised the researcher. Would this much scrutiny of the researcher’s personal life be going on if there had been a bad study published (as many are) about children of heterosexual relationships, single-parent families, etc..?

              If you can’t locate and criticise the bias in the work itself, it’s purely rhetorical to mention it and doesn’t add to your argument — which I agree with – about the worth of the study data itself. ie the intrinsic value is low. There’s your assessment. The stuff about the author is spin.

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            • gosh golly

              Nicky – my point, in reply to Francesca, was that the author of the study is likely to identify strongly with her subjects as well as having a high level of personal investment in the outcome of the study. If it is reasonable to suggest that lesbian parents among survey respondents may have felt the need to fight hard to prove themselves, and that this may be a source of bias, why is it ‘demonising’ to suggest that the study’s main author – herself a lesbian parent, who is clear in her own academic bio about her desire to influence the public perception of lesbians (http://tinyurl.com/2evhty4) – may feel similarly, and to question how this may have affected the conclusions she drew from her study?

              At the end of the day, as you’ve pointed out there is much better research floating around. Bugs me when the sensationalist copy for the last month have been about this particular one is all.

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    • Nicky

      I don’t agree with the comment about the personal agendas of the study’s authors – not sure that should come into a critical analysis of the study – but it’s great to see all this analysis of study methodology on a community blog – yay for raising scientific literacy!

      This study aside, I think it’s important to reiterate that there is good evidence that having same-sex parents does not disadvantage a child, and this should be brought up again and again when opponents of gay marriage, gay adoption, and gay couples having children start to make claims about bad outcomes for children.

      It would be interesting to investigate if women who were brave enough to be in an out and proud, loving relationship and have children actually had a higher propensity to high self-esteem etc than the population norm, and that this was passed on to their children with other aspects of temperament to increase the chances of children of these kind of same-sex unions being really well-adjusted. All power to same sex couples with kids who haven’t let the general population shame them out of it, anyway.

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    • Nicky

      For those interested, here is the study itself:
      http://www.nllfs.org/publications/pdf/peds.2009-3153v1.pdf

      Responding to your last response to my comments below about demonisation: did the author bias participant’s responses? – do you even know that the author created or carried out the interviews? There is a research team. There may well be response bias, but it should be considered that ‘hetero’ families would have a similar level of response bias when answering questions about their own families.

      The interviews with mothers were structured and standardised. Importantly – the data was not only from mothers. The Child Behaviour Checklist (CBCL) – the gold standard psychological instrument for detecting mental health problems in children – was administered to the children. I would suggest it would be difficult for children to fudge this test due to response bias.

      Demographics were reported and the details of the researcher providing the data for ‘hetero’ families were referenced, so available.

      78 families remain in the study, which began over 20 years ago. The study is prospective – this is a strength – so those who were included couldn’t really know what they were going to encounter. High dropout rates are common in prospective studies – it’s onerous to be involved for so long, but it is an issue that we don’t know if those who dropped out have something in common – like worst outcomes. This is a weakness of the study.

      The claims of the study were not overblown. The CBCL reported worse than average results for teens on some variables – like for teenagers who had experienced teasing and were stigmatised as pre-pubescents, as well as the positive aspects evident in some (NOT all) of the mothers’ responses.

      It’s not the best study ever, but it is not remarkably bad, compared to the usual studies done. It should be viewed in context.

      Regardless, it seems that the personal lives of minority researchers are constantly held up for scrutiny, whilst mainstream researchers, for the main part, remain known only as by-lines, or for their professional reputation.

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      • Kat

        Nicky – I agree. It’s kind of disrespectful to the author as an academic, and the team involved in the survey, to assume it is about agenda pushing. They have an interest in the area and have done the study as there was not adequate research available. The best things about these studies is that they are held up to peer review rather than shallow reviews on forums like this!

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      • Francesca

        If you actually read the comments written to the editor in response to the article you’ll see our criticisms have not been drawn out of thin air.

        Criticism made by Walter R. Schumm, Professor of Family Studies
        School of Family Studies & Human Services, Kansas State University

        Alex I. Kartashov, biostatistician, Policy Analysis Inc., Brookline, MA

        Neil E. Whitehead, Research Scientist Whitehead Associates, Lower Hutt, New Zealand

        These are the types of academics who would be peer reviewing this article. Just because we do not agree with you, that doesn’t mean our arguments do not have merit.

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        • camille

          I’m glad this forum is read by people who are educated and able to evaluate and think critically.
          Good onya ladies!

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      • gosh golly

        Nicky, if personal agendas do not come into the critical analysis of a study, why are investigators required to declare conflict of interest – situations in which financial or personal considerations may compromise or have the appearance of compromising professional judgement – when submitting research for publication or applying for grants?

        In this situation, when the research is directly related to the investigator’s own personal life (both at home and in her advocacy work), then yes, there is a potential conflict of interest which should be acknowledged. ‘Minority’ or ‘mainstream’ has nothing to do with it.

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        • Nicky

          Ok – so the personal agendas of all those critics of the article cited above all need to be displayed, as well. Again, I think you can criticise the study itself, the methods and results, to come to your conclusions. It should be irrelevant what the study author concludes (make your own conclusions from the methods and results).

          Also – the article was peer reviewed and considered good enough for publication – if studies are methodologically bad they are not approved.

          As I’ve said previously – interpretation should be in the context of knowing what other studies are like (remarkable similar in methods) given the difficulties of longitudinal, prospective research and getting participants, and in the context of a body of research. Playing the woman really doesn’t get you that far and is an easy way out. If you criticise her agenda – which she clearly states, and is honest about – that doesn’t automatically throw doubt on her study. Only the methods and results can do that. As for relying on authority for the criticisms made – I’m only impressed by the reasoning behind them. As I’ve said above, there are weaknesses to the study. There are also strengths. Fairly mild conclusions are made, fully acknowledging the study’s limitations. It’s not a fatally flawed study, but it certainly needs to be replicated for anyone to be totally confident in it. But given the measures, I think you could pretty confidently claim that the kids are no worse off – except for some minor effects resulting from stigmatisation by prejudiced society members. That’s just about what the authors were really on about. Not making big claims that it’s better to have mums rather than other combos of parents.

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  31. Evil Cupcake

    I also think gender is immaterial, however, I would hope that there is some male influence in the kids life, or if the couple are men, that there is a female influence.

    I lost my father at 8 years old, and it was difficult not having a male figure in my life from then on. I believe I was emotionally stunted in a way, took me longer to grow up than most. Although, having typed that I question it, I still think farts are funny (see colonics post).

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  32. Danielle

    I am with you Mia. Good families, good parents, bad families and bad parents – all come in a variety of configurations and gender makes no difference to which side of that equation you fall into.

    On your other point, in a ‘traditional’ sense, I got myself a ‘wife’. He cooks, he cleans, he cares, I work and manage our money and use powertools. Its fabulous – sucks to be a woman with limited interest in ‘wifely’ things if you can’t balance that out in your relationship.

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  33. Christy

    Slightly off topic. But my mother (in her 70s) has a large circle of friends and some of them wonder why, after the child rearing is over, we don’t just ditch the husbands and live in a commune with your friends.

    Women have much more in common with other women and the men can all live together too. Oh they suggest a hook up every now and again ;)

    Older women! Gotta love ‘em.

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    • Vicky

      my theory exactly!!!

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