Leiby Kletzy
Leiby Kletzy was 8. He may have been a Brooklyn child but he wasn’t street smart by any stretch of the imagination. On Monday he became lost on what was supposed to be a short walk and asked a stranger for directions. Two days later police found his body dismembered in a fridge in an apartment and in a bin on the street. Police are questioning a man who allegedly picked the child up in his car.
Headlines in newspapers online are written to make you click on them. When I saw the picture of Leiby Kletzy with the words “Lost boy killed after asking for help” I knew what was to come.
Not the story so much, which is horrifying and heartbreaking. I too, have only one son and have three daughters to the Kletzy family’s four. The death of a child is a tragedy and reading of this little boy’s death made my chest constrict and heart ache. It would for anyone, parent or non-parent alike. However, it wasn’t reading the story that I was dreading; it is the change in society over the next few days.
For the next week I can expect several people to say directly to my daughter, in my presence, not to trust anybody, to never talk to strangers. They’ll tell me, in front of my daughter, how sad it is that you just never know where the next psycho lives and what a shame we live in a society where I can never, ever, let my child out of my sight.
People who know I believe in the ‘free range’ philosophy of raising children will make a point to contact me or send me the link. See, do you see? This is what happens when a child walks home alone.
Because even though it isn’t true, it seems like it sometimes. The SMH headline contains two messages : every child is in danger and never ask for help from strangers. Newspapers don’t run on being objective and calm, newspapers run on papers sold and clicks online. A child’s death is news, even if you have to get it from the other side of the globe. Very few papers will point out that you are more likely to die from a lightning strike or choking on a BBQ sausage that have your child abducted by a stranger then murdered. There is very little in society more life threatening than putting your child in a car and driving them around, yet we ignore it. We don’t weigh risk objectively.
It really took me by surprise the first time someone gave my daughter stranger danger advice. By now, though, my default response is to immediately squat down next to my five year old daughter and say “Don’t listen to this person. If someone is making you feel uncomfortable, talk to the nearest adult. If you are lost, talk to the nearest adult. You can trust them.”
As horrible as Leiby Kletxy’s death is, he was found because the community went all out to help search for the missing boy. The good people in this story outweigh the bad person by thousands to one. We do live in a community. Almost everyone is good. Tragedy happens, yes, but it is thankfully rare. When my daughter leaves the house to walk to a friend’s house, I don’t tell her to watch out for strangers, I tell her to watch out for cars and wave to everyone – to build her own community.
Because communities keep us safe.
Comments
194 Comments so far
This is my first time visit at here and i am actually
pleassant to read all at single place.
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I cant count the amount of times ive picked up kids who weren’t mine because they were in danger. It’s human instinct isn’t it? ( i am talking about littlies who’ve run away from mum or dad, or gotten lost)
I’ve been equally thanked and abused by the parent, but it doesnt occur to me to ignore the 3 year old running full pelt through a busy carpark. is that wrong? perhaps im naive to think its still ok? I remember when i was younger my gut instinct about people was always correct, and i speak from experience when i say it is much more likely that a family member will hurt you than a stranger.
yes there are some truly evil people out there, but kids need to be able to ask for help when they need it. i always did.
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What a great article, obviously not because of the heart wrenching tragedy. I have to say it is a sad state of affairs today because of this negative attitude.
When I was 5 I was out the front of our house with my 3 yr old sister and this older, balding guy pulled up in a cream coloured car and try very hard to coerce me and my sister into the car to go get lollies at the corner store. I can remember very clearly feeling very uncomfortable and held my sister tight while telling him no over and over, he was very insistent and started to unbuckle his seat belt when I started screaming. Firstly to get help, but secondly because my sister wanted to go get the lollies and I was having trouble holding on to her. A strange in a passing car stopped in the middle of the road and this made the old guy take off, she ran over to us and I felt safe with her immediately ( my gut instinct was kicking in) mum ran out at the same time as she heard me and had been dealing with our infant sister inside. police were called and all that but he was never caught to my knowledge. Another time when I was 8, walking back to my house with a friend from the corner shop, a guy was following us, we would turn around and he would flash at us, we were so nervous that we ran into a house we were not familar with and the man there called my mum and the cops.
Growing up we were always taught to be aware and no put yourself in vunerable situations, like leaving your friendshop group, taking a different path home, getting into someones car , trust your gut etc. Mum also taught us that another mother is usually a good person to go to if the need arise. This worked for my sister once when we she got separated from the family at the royal easter show. A very friendly lady with kids looked after my sister until mum got to her. I have tried to teach my kids these things too and fortunately nothing has ever happened to any of them. But it was a way of life for us growing up because we were never in the house for the day, we were out playing all day and had to be home when the street lights came on. We would have lunch at whatever house were were playing at and have the greatest time. Our street was filled with kids so we all had to be street wise to some extent.
Plus, other adults were quite ok to tell us off as kids too. I remember clearly many times getting yelled at my friends mums or told off by the shop keeper or the neighbour if we were playing up. Mum never cared in fact she would give us a second telling off. And the same if kids were hanging at our house.Times have changed but not really for the better. I loved the last line int he article about watching out for cars and waving to everyone, how lovely.
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I was at a large shopping centre, 8 months pregnant, when my 2yo decided to bolt across the busy carpark. I screamed for her to stop, but it was a game. Cars screeched to a halt as she bolted in front of them. She ran past 3 or 4 sets of people before one young woman finally grabbed her. When I arrived, weeping and near hysterical, 30 sec later, the young woman apologised profusely!! I was shocked. She said she was so sorry she’d touched my child! I told her I’d never been so grateful in my life, and thanked her with all my heart. She explained that she’d once stopped a child who was running through a shopping centre and was about to run down stairs. When the child’s mother arrived the mother verbally abused this young woman, yelling “how dare you touch a child”, and threatened to call the police!
Like many have said already, I’m aiming to teach my children wariness of strangers, without fear. And I also think it’s important that the same applies to all people – if you’re uncomfortable with anyone, whether you know them or not, trust your instincts and find someone else to tell/talk to.
I’m a self-confessed helicopter mum. I’m getting better with child 2 (I figure the 1st one hasn’t died from falling over yet), but I’ve a way to go.
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I’ve been in both situations – the mum with the tearaway toddler and rescuer of bolting children.
However, these days, I find myself saying “stop. Where’s your mum?” because I am reluctant to touch kids after having a telling off, or being ignored after helping.
Sometimes, it does take a village to raise a child.
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A few months ago I had emergency surgery and was hospitalized following a ruptured appendix.
After visiting me, and returning home, my husband sent my three kids out to walk the dog, to give him a chance to clean up a little and plan dinner.
It was a Sunday, and late afternoon (full daylight – not dusk).
While on the walk, my 5 1/2 year old (youngest) started to cry, because I was in the hospital and she was missing me. The older two (almost 11 and almost 9) talked to her to cheer her up, and they all kept walking, as they were only 2 block from home.
Someone called the police.
A police car came to investigate, and it sounds like the officers were lovely. After making sure that everything was OK, they let the kids continue on home (my eldest pointed to the end of our street to show they were almost home).
When recounting this story, other mothers in my circle mostly say “isn’t that good that someone was looking out for the kids”.
Actually it makes me a little sad. A stranger was worried about my kids, and was clearly too scared to even call out from several metres away to say “is everything ok?”
Also I think it has become unusual to see kids out on their own, so people worry about it just because they are no longer used to it. The three kids were clearly walking a dog, together, in daylight.
Having the police stop them made the kids feel a little bit like they had done the wrong thing, even though the actual officers didn’t make a big deal out of it.
I think the stranger danger message is really out of control.
This was really pushed home to me when I volunteered at the primary school with the preps for a visit from the Ambulance service.
The preps were role-playing calling an ambulance and giving their addresses, and several mothers (myself included) were playing call centre operators, using a “script” provided by the service (eg. what number is on your letter box, or do you know the name of your street). This was actually really good stuff. We all listened to a real call made by a 5 year old whose Mother was in a coma, which was heart rending, but actually very calm, with a happy ending
Afterwards, I flipped over the script I had been given and discovered that the ambulance service was teaching these kids (at least on the print-out that I was holding) that if there was an emergency in public, they should NEVER EVER ask a stranger for help. Only a parent or brother or sister.
I could not believe it. If I was at the park with my kids and I was having a heart attack, wouldn’t it be a tragedy if I died because they weren’t allowed to ask a stranger for help?!
I have taught my kids that most strangers are just ordinary people like Mum and Dad, and not scary, but they should never feel like they have to be polite if a stranger is making them feel uncomfortable – they can run away.
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Thanks for that Claire – so much to think about. Hope you’re recovering well from your surgery.
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40 years ago a toddler was snatched from her bed and later found dead thrown on top of a toilet block. 40 years before that 3 children were taken from a beach in broad daylight.
The world has not changed. Sadly, there will always be Danielle Morecombes and Leiby Kletzy’s but there are far more Keisha Abrahms and the “boy in the box” than we care to admit.
While kids need to know about stranger danger, they are far more likely to be abused and assaulted by someone they know and love.
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I just have to edit your comments…his name is DANIEL Morcombe, not Danielle – a 13 year old boy, who disappeared from a Sunshine Coast bus station in 2003. I don’t know the family, but this case has haunted me from the very beginning. No parent should be subjected to the horror of not knowing what happened to their child. I pray that one day Daniel’s remains will be found, and his parents will have some element of closure.
I have 2 littlies, and would have no problem with them wearing a GPS infused piece of jewellery, or even have some GPS style device as part of a tooth filling. It would make me no less vigilant in watching and caring for them, but if it spares me the pain of Daniel or Maddie McCann’s parent, then fine. It may actually allow me to be a little more free in letting them walk to the shop with their brother/sister when they are primary school age, or catching a bus to and from school.
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There’s a great line in Finding Nemo where Dory speaks to Marlon: But if you never let anything happen to him, nothing will ever happen to him. Not much fun for lil’ Harpo … Nemo. Top post, Chris.
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Pingback: My response to Leiby Kletzy’s murder « Cooking with too much salt
When I was a young child back in the early 90s a 13-year-old girl called Carmain Chan was kidnapped from her Melbourne home while looking after her younger siblings. My Mum freaked out when she heard this and made me have a babysitting until I was about 14, scared that someoen would kidnap me. I used to have huge arguments with her, claiming that i was far too old to have a babysitter. I’m not sure whether she took the right approach or not and as I don’t have my own children yet, it’s hard for me to say how I woudl react to the same situation.
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This is by far the worst kind of pain that could be inflicted on a parent, knowing your child was murdered in such a horrific manner and chopped to pieces so you couldn’t even view his body. Just thinking about the little boy’s suffering and his parents knowing the details and having to live with those details day and night for the rest of their lives is heart breaking.
I haven’t read the full story but there is always an assumption with these cases that some sort of sexual abuse may have taken place before the murder which must be further torture for his parents.
My prayers go out to his family.
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I was a latch key kid and walked alone to and from school from a month before my 6th birthday. I’d say it was a couple of km’s.
I’m not sure it was the right thing to do for a range of reasons. And I distinctly remember one incident of two men attempting to coax me into their unit.
I was given very strict instructions from my mother. For example, people weren’t to know our situation – that I left or returned home alone. And I was never to go with someone I didn’t know. She said she would never ever send someone to collect me whom I didn’t know. If they said she had, they’d be lying.
My children are extremely unlikely to ever come home to an empty house at 6yo but those last two rules are worth reiterating to them.
Despite this somewhat questionable arrangement, I have zero doubt the experience siginficantly increased my ability to accurately read certain situations…
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Your last part – about being able to read situations. We weren’t particularly sheltered growing up, but I did rely on my Mum a lot to get around and never really had to think about strangers too much.
When I was 14, I was walking around St Kilda, shopping by myself when I was befriended by a random male tourist who was about 25 years older than me. We started talking about renaissance art and he regaled me with stories of galleries in Europe. He bought me an ice cream and we sat on the beach while he told me about some jazz composer, then invited me up to his hotel room to listen to some really awesome jazz. Totally naive, I thought “new friend!” and went.
He poured me a drink, dimmed the lights and tried to kiss me, I freaked out and he said, “Well, what did you think I invited you up here for?”. Luckily, I left unscathed. It scares me to think of how pathetically naive I was and my total inability to read the situation, and what could have happened if he happened to be a rapist or a murderer.
But you can’t think like that – living your life as though every single stranger *is* a psychopath only makes for a very fearful, very small life.
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I taught my kids to be careful when crossing the road, standing near fires or cliff edges, swimming in the ocean, walking on grass in bare feet and talking to strangers who approach them. They are no more terrified of strangers than they are of bees or bindiis but they do have good common sense.
I agree that the vast majority of strangers are good people who would take care of a child in need but it’s not their job to keep our kids safe, it’s ours.
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It is our job to keep our kids safe, but it is also our job as a community to keep others safe too.
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I am so sick of my relatives thinking the world has changed and is so dangerous. They are appauled that I am letting my daughter catch the bus next year to school. It is a school bus. For one school. A few blocks away. with friends in older grades.In a town of 3000 people.
It pisses me off completley.
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A girlfriend told me earnestly that I shouldn’t let my kids walk to school unaccompanied, because a stranger could come along and abduct them. We live six houses from the school. I am so over this mindset and this scaremongering!
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You shouldn’t teach your children to be scared of strangers. Wary, yes. Scared, no. I’m an adult and I’m always wary of people who I don’t know. I go as far as saying there are some people who I know quite well yet am always wary of. Some people seem to send out signals that keep you alert and on your toes.
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Does anyone remember what it’s like to be a kid?
When I was five, we lived only a short walk from school. I was so determined to be a Big Girl that I desperately wanted to walk to school by myself. My mum would not have any of it. Then after deliberations with my dad, it was decided that she would walk with me until she could see the rest of the path clearly and then watch me walk by myself. I wouldn’t be surprised if she actually secretly shadowed me for the rest of the way, being the helicopter parent that she was.
Then when I was around the age eight I decided that it was about time that I could walk to the local milk bar by myself, or at least with my neighbour who was the same age. Again, of course, mum refused. And like any normal kid I got dad involved, again. They argued, he said something to effect that she can’t keep me locked up and I’d have to grow up some time (but in fairness to mum we lived in Melbourne and it was the Mr Cruel era).
Then when I started high school we moved to Western Sydney. I didn’t yet have any friends to catch the bus with, and I lived some distance from the school so it was unlikely there would also be other girls travelling from the same suburb. Also my mum found out that if I were to get to school myself I’d have to change buses at a station notorious for drugs and junkies. My mum gave into the media fear mongering (because it was really all just hype, it actually wasn’t THAT bad, plenty of school kids roaming around) and drove me to and from school EVERY SINGLE DAY!
By the time I was a little more street wise (which wasn’t much, I’ve been greatly naïve my whole life) and old enough for my mum to happily let me catch the bus, I was only too happy (and lazy) with my mother alarm clock and chauffeur service.
What’s the moral of my story? Stifling children’s independence is not doing them any service. The lessons we need to learn to become responsible, independent, functioning adults begin in childhood. And not everything can be learnt from a book or educational TV show, kids need experiences to know what they are capable of.
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I really do appreciate that my parents gave me a safe and happy childhood, not everyone in this world is quite so fortunate. However sometimes I think it’s just luck/chance, bad things can happen no matter how vigelant a parent might be.
There just needs to be balance.
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If you haven’t seen it you should check out this video of a stranger who ran and caught a little boy who fell from an escalator. Very lucky.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10166217
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There are some great tips from everyone here about teaching kids about stranger danger. In addition, my Mum got me to memorise our home phone number and address at a very early age. I mean about 3. She said if I was ever lost, or scared, or uncomfortable with how someone was talking to me, I was to find a policeman or a public phone and call either home on reverse charges, or 000. It was great advice and made me feel more confident out and about. I walked to school alone from age 7.
The other thing she did was give us a family password. In an emergency, if she would send someone to pick us up, they had to give the code word.
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The family code word is a great idea ! I’ll be sure to use that one day if I have kids
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oh my goodness- did my mum did too- I still remember the pass word.
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what was it?
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Ah yes….we have a password too.
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Thanks for the password tip!
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Oh yeah, the code word! Never had to use it, but always reminded of it.
I like to think that, even today, if I sent my mum or sister a message with that word in it, they would figure out that something was wrong.
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The password is a great idea…
And sorry to go on a tangent, but I’m reminded of a ridiculous moment when I was in labour with my first child. The gas had made me ridiculously wooooozy and I decided my husband I needed a ‘codeword’ in case things got really bad during the labour. Because, y’know, just saying “things are bad” would have been indecent to say in front of the midwives?!
Anyway, the word that came to mind was ‘penguin’ (obviously) and to this day we chuckle whenever penguins made random appearances in our conversations
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That’s hilarious! Did you end up SAYING ‘penguin’ at any point? If I were the midwife, I would have thought you were B&D types and that was your safe word and you’d used it by accident. You know, as a learned response to pain.
Maybe I should pick a safeword for when I have my baby in four months time…hummm what to pick..I know, how about ‘EPIDURAL’?
BTW, I always enjoy your comments sometimeskaren..I always wonder, is your moniker a reference to the Cure song Charlotte Sometimes?
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Hahaha
Love your comment! All I remember is that i slurred out “Okay … we need a shignal … sho if I shay ‘penguin’ you need to lisshen, ‘kay?” And my husband just nodding and smiling oddly. He knew I was out of it. I also asked to watch Hey Hey it’s Saturday (despite it being off the air for years) and insulting my doctor about cat hair on his trousers. Nice work!
And thanks for noticing my little comments
The ‘sometimes’ is because sometimes I get to be just Karen, but most of the time I’m someone’s wife, mother, dogsbody, etc 
And it’s my Twitter handle (@sometimeskaren) so if you’re on there, look me up! Would be lovely to chat 
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My kids have been walking to and from school since they were 10 and 8. I never have told them ‘don’t talk to strangers’ as I believe most people are good and like you say in the article, the odds of them getting to school safely are pretty much stacked in their favour. I have always told them this though – If they get lost or feel threatened, go into a shop. Also, that adults should never ask a child for help (ie the ‘I’ve lost my puppy’ scenario). If this ever happens, direct them to the local shops and walk straight home. They are 14 and 12 now and ride their scooters pretty much everywhere.
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That is bloody genius!! I have been trying to find the right way to introduce this concept to my 4 year old (she already knows the “go into a shop” bit, but I love the “adults shouldn’t ask kids for help” bit. Non-threatening, but will help avoid potentially dangerous scenarios.
THANK YOU!
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Thanks! But I can’t take credit for that. I read it somewhere and thought it was genius too!
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Sorry to judge but I am not comfortable with your 5 yr old being able to walk to a friends house. I am nervous about my 13 yr old walking to the bus stop, but he does. I am suspicious of strangers with regard to my children. I on the other hand am extremely friendly and talk to all kinds of strangers, but I am an adult and I can judge situations and more or less look after myself.
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how do you expect your children to grow up the same then?
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That’s just it “I want to see my children grow up”. In the area where I live, recently there has been some abduction attempts. LIke it’s about 5 now. It’s scary to think there are preditors out there just waiting for an opportunity to take a child.
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I think your line “I am not comfortable with your child…” says it all. You don’t know that child, where the friend’s house is, ANYTHING about them. It isn’t up to you.
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Well I’m not appologising for being uncomfortable because there are very dangerous sick individuals in our society and everyone should be concerned for childrens safety.
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I’m not sure it’s your job to be ‘comfortable’ with what other people let their kids do.
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Would you think it’s normal to see a 5 year old walking the streets on their own.Would you not be concerned for the childs safety.
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If I saw a 5 year old walking down the street who was obviously lost and distressed, I’d find out if their parents were nearby, ask if they knew their parents phone number or anything, and if all failed, I’d take them to the police station and wait with them until their parents could be located.
If I saw a 5 year old walking down the street who was perfectly fine, I might be tempted to ask if they were lost just to be sure, but if they are just walking to the milkbar or the park or their friend’s house with permission, that’s their parents decision, not mine.
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” I might be tempted to ask if they were lost just to be sure, but if they are just walking to the milkbar or the park or their friend’s house with permission, that’s their parents decision, not mine” so basically your saying you would check if they were ok. So basically your not comfortable either. Because unless you ask them your not sure if they are lost or not. So what it comes down to is it’s not normal to see a 5 yr old wandering the streets.
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But that still doesn’t change the fact that it’s not our decision. Get over it – control your own children, stop worrying about everyone elses.
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Completely agree that 5 is way too young to be walking ANYWHERE alone. My son is 5 and I cannot imagine letting him walk out the front door without supervision.
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But that’s your son and you. I used to walk to close places on my own when I was 5. My brother and sister, not so much.
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All her friends live on the same street. We live on a dead end street, so there is very little traffic. My judgement is that my 5yo is fine to visit those houses, and their parents let their children do the same, so no one seems to think it’s a big deal. Maybe it is just a different neighbourhood?
Any further and I either drive or ride or walk with her. By the time she’s seven and a half, though, she’ll be walking her five year old sister to school and be responsible for walking her home too. And she will be able to travel as far as her bike can take her. Just like I did when I was a kid.
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My sister is in a similar neighbourhood situation, and her kids have done the same thing as well. I don’t think it’s as weird as the narrow view of this post and people’s reactions and the media make it out to be. At least I hope it isn’t.
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For the most part I agree with you Chris and for me it is about slowly over years giving my son the skills he needs to be confident in a situation and teaching him to trust his instincts. I think often in situations people (not just children) ignore their instincts which can lead to trouble.
I do think we need to be mindful as a society that we are aware of the hypocrisy we often teach our children. If you teach stranger danger but then force them to say hello to the lovely old lady in the supermarket who wants to chat then you need to be sure you are in some way explaining that it is OK because you are there…..
At Easter whilst in a Sydney shopping centre my 4 year old was approached by some teenagers offering chocolate eggs. There was no stranger alert in my son once chocolate was mentioned so I decided this an opportune time to tell him a little bit about being careful.
I said to him that if someone offers him sweets or chocolates he should always ask me (or daddy or grandparents etc) before accepting or at the least before eating them. He asked me why so I said sometimes people can be mean and do the wrong thing. My son just looked at me likes I was crazy and said “It’s just a chocolate Easter egg!” So I was put in my place and felt like Chris did when someone else warned his child (except I did it to myself!)
I am keen to raise a resilient, mindful child and will try to do this without scaring the poor child to death!
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Agreed that it’s not usually “strangers” that children (and their rents) should be most worried about, and that the stranger danger message is all out of proportion! Software-man has said to me several times that he would never stop to help a lost child, as he’s a very large, young male, and would be worried about how people would react. Which is a bit of a sad statement about our society!
When i was swim teaching, I worked with an Irish bloke who said that the paranoia in Britain was so bad, you couldn’t actually get into a pool with the kids cos parents were worried about them being “touched inappropriately” . They pretty much just have to throw 3 year olds in the water and shout at them from the side, cos you’re not allowed to touch the kids. He found it really weird working in Australia, where you can actually guide their arms and legs and be in the water with them!
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Personally, I find the “shouting from the side” weird. We are just getting too precious these days. I wonder how our kids will be when they’re grown.
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I couldn’t agree more, Chris.
This topic, for me at least, is very closely related to the ‘what do we call body parts’ topic. Giving kids factual information without embarrassment or sensationalism keeps them safe (well, as safe as possible in a society where some people are simply determined to harm kids).
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Is the Safety House program still running? I remember as a primary school student (probably around 1988 or so) our teachers would take the classes for a big walk around the boundaries of the school. We would learn how to look before crossing the street, about safe places to cross, and the lollipop man or lady. We also learnt to look out for safety houses, marked with a yellow triangle on the letterbox or gate. This way if we ever felt scared for any reason we could just run until we saw a safety house, knock on the door and the person there would help us contact a parent.
I remember this clearly, and while I did not walk to school by myself I would still memorise all the safety houses on the way, just in case. I felt safe because I knew there were all these nice people to help me if I ever was in trouble.
I can imagine it freaking people out nowadays, the idea that any bad person could stick a yellow triangle on their letterbox so vulnerable kids would run to them. But the odds of it ever happening would be pretty slim- for a child to feel threatened by a stranger and then happen to choose the safety house that isn’t safe.
I free-ranged so much as a kid that if I had children of my own I couldn’t deny them all that fun. I knew where I was allowed to go by myself, with friends, or with the dog. We had a german shepherd with excellent insincts about ‘good’ or ‘bad’ people so naturally she was my guardian. I guess it’s a good solution for some, and probably something I’d do for my own theoretical future kids. Get a big dog, and send them all out to explore together!
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I got lost on the way from school to someone else’s house once and I went to a safety house for help. This would have been the 90′s. I’m pretty sure you had to be registered with the govt to get the sign.
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That’s cool that a safety house helped you (well, the person in it anyway)! I’d imagine there to be some sort of govt thing, or a register you had to be on. I don’t know why they’d stop a program like that?
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We were free-range rural kids, the only rule was we had to be home by dark and have the dog with us… little did we realise it was for people, but he did save me from a bull once, and he always knew if there was a snake around and steered us clear. God, I loved that dog, almost as much as Miss 4 loves hers.
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I reckon it’s great growing up with animals, I never understood people who got rid of pets because they were having a baby
They teach kids compassion, responsibility and respect, not to mention they’re lots of fun and you’ve always got a best mate to hang out with. I think if I ever had kids I’d get MORE pets, which is probably very naive of me haha!
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This story is horrible and I would not wish that on any child or parent but we need to retain our perspective:
There are literally millions of children in the world. Today we have heard of ONE child taken by a stranger out of millions of children but it is this kind of story that will reinforce (through the media) parents’ belief that the world is big and bad out there and the only way to protect their kids is to never let them go anywhere.
Which is especially sad when you consider how many children are murdered by their parents each year. Far more than those taken by strangers.
My only advice is teach your children to trust their butterflies in their tummies. They never lie.
ANd my heart goes out to this little boy’s family but his story will not stop me letting my kids go out by themselves.
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I don’t think there is a definitive answer. A lot of posters have said that community is key. While I agree with this, the scary part, and something that many posters seem to have missed, is the fact that Leiby WAS part of a community, I quote: “the tight-knit Hasidic community in Borough Park … one of the safest sections of the city … the man under arrest is himself an Orthodox Jew.” (from the article in the SMH). In other words, he was abducted and murdered by a stranger from within his community.
My point is, even within a tight-knit community (or a family), you need to be aware of stranger danger.
I agree, children often have good instincts, but when lost and scared and in need of help, as Leiby must have been, instincts and the lessons from parents often fall by the wayside. Leiby was lost, vulnerable and afraid, and the outcome was terrible. My heart breaks for his family.
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Hmm.. I was always very careful as a child anyway, and my parents drummed the stranger danger into us kids. I was waiting for mum and dad once when a car pulled up by me. I was about 9 and I flipped out. Luckily it was harmless. :/
I was chatting to a guy about this, and just the thought made us visibly upset and shudder. There are some f**ked up people out there.
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My parents were exactly the same, I grew up being cautious of strangers, sometimes paranoid but also more aware and careful too. I dont know if its all a bad thing. I had a car pull up and from memory people (an old lady and someone?) offer to take me somewhere when I was at a bus stop when I was about 14 and I flipped out too! Glad for being cautiius overall
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I won’t teach my kids stranger danger or to be careful, because if the slutwalk taught me anything, it’s that crime shouldn’t happen and victims are never responsible.
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So it’s alright if your child gets kidnapped and assaulted as long as they don’t blame themselves?
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So, by your way of thinking, everyone should bury their head in the sand and and pretend crime doesn’t happen?
People murder. People get killed. It’s horrible. We get by and survive off knowledge and preparation.
If a child was killed you wouldn’t say to the parents “oh I’m sorry for your loss, at least it wasn’t Johnny’s fault.”
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LOL. I like the cut of your jib, sir.
Please compartmentalise your arguments and ignore any conflicts that may apply.
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“What’s a jib?”
“Ha! Promote that man at once.”
Methinks some people missed the point of Exposing Hypocrsy comment…
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LOL! You are my new best friend. Love anyone who can work a Simpsons quote in.
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You’ll have to speak up, I’m wearing a towel.
Hahah I apply Simpsons quotes to any situation! Can’t help myself…
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More like Missing The Point rather than Exposing Hypocr(i)sy?
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Good luck to your kids
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Thanks to being taught stranger danger, I knew how to get away from the man that chased me halfway to school in the middle of the day (had gone home with permission to change muddy clothes). While it’s not the be all and end all, it’s still useful.
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I both agree and disagree. I loathe the whole ‘stranger danger’ thing and encourage my children to talk to ‘strangers’ provided a grown up they know is with them. They are still little (7, 5 and 3) so it’s unlikely that they would ever be anywhere without a grown up they know anyway! To me, and to them, the world is a place full of lovely, engaged people we don’t know who make our days special in lots of different ways. I try to teach them by example that all different kinds of people make up the world and that you can usually tell by observing them carefully the kind of people they are. Body language and trusting your instincts play a big role in that and kids are really, really good at it.
However, I’m not sure I’m comfortable with ‘trusting’ people they don’t know. I don’t think I’d go that far. I would probably tell them that if they found themselves needing to talk to a stranger when they were by themselves, to make sure lots and lots of other strangers were around at the same time. Or at least make sure they felt comfortable with the person they were about to speak to. Instincts, I guess.
PS – Really, really awful things happen randomly all the time – they always have. But I’m not going to raise my children to expect that it will happen to them. No way.
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Completely agree re your PS.
Awful, tragic incidents are a possibility not a probability……
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Our family is heading right into this phase. Miss8 (nearly 9) is keen to walk to school with a friend, but without me. Her justification is that “my friends do it (and they do) why can’t I”. I have explained to her that I’m not ready for her to walk or ride to school without me, but that we will spend the rest of this year getting her ready so that she can start next year. I regularly walk the kids to school so now she walks ahead of us and crosses the road by herself. I can send her to the local shop a few blocks away for a grocery item. She can walk her brother Mr6 to soccer. I am giving her lots of little opportunities to walk independently in the hope that I feel ready to let her go alone next year.
I teach my children that it is ok to talk to strangers, but that they must trust their own judgement. If they feel that a stranger is not safe, they need to trust themselves and their feelings. 99% of strangers are good, law-abiding citizens. I just hope that my children never come across the other 1%.
It takes all my inner strength to let my children go free, but I know that I need to if I want to raise confident, resilient children.
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I hope no child ever meets alone with that 1%, not just my own….
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What is the point of that post? Are you trying to make Because I’m The Mum feel bad because she didn’t say all children?
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Don’t worry MAC. I’ve got pretty thick skin
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because i hope no child ever has to deal with that, not just my own. Was not written to make anyone feel bad….
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It can be really hard to let them go on their own. Last time my stepdaughter came to visit (11yo) I was shocked my husband let her go buy food on her own in the food court. While I think she’s more than old enough to do that, he’s so protective of her (especially as he doesn’t get to see her much) that I was floored.
Baby steps, eh?
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Also, her mum doesn’t let her walk the 15 minutes to school with friends, her stepdad drives her to school every day. So don’t feel too unusual
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I saved a little boy one night, on my way home from work, 9pm, running for his life on the side a busy bypass….Im a mother, and if that were my child I would expect another mother to act, so I pulled over and coaxed him into the car (I had left my phone ay home that night..), I showed him my licence and address, to convince I was not a stranger, then I discovered he couldnt talk, or understand what I was saying, so as I was outside my street I took him home and called the police…this little boy was about nine, but he couldnt tell me his name, he had no shoes on, only Pyjamas, and he was clearly running for his life…it was a good ending! I have on another occasion rescued a toddler (age 2) roaming the streets of my neighbourhood at 6am in her nappy and nothing else….I too had a toddler at the time, so I took him with me and we set off following a dog she was with (it appeared she was following the dog..)…..5 streets, later up many hills we found a house that the dog walked into….I went and knocked on the door (wide open) and the parents came out and retreived their daughter….didnt get a thanks from either parent in both these situations. My point is Kids are safe in our community…
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Exactly. A vast majority of strangers help a distressed or lost child. More concerning than stranger danger is the trend where people who might see that little boy running or that 2yo toddler walking around and NOT help, in fear of being accussed of being a predator.
Thats my point about community.
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I found a toddler on the street one day, there were several people around, mostly male and none of them wanted to go near the kid for fear of what they might be accused of (one of them said as much). I put him in my car and drove to the nearby police station. The police later rang me to let me know the very distraught mum called them a few minutes after I left him there, she quickly went to pick him up and she was very grateful for my help.
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When I was around ten years old, I once left our screen door open which allowed my baby sister to crawl out onto the road in our quiet street…luckily a cautious driver returned her to the family home. Oooops.
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I can’t believe you weren’t thanked!!
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this is what a responsible citizen should do. There was a story local here last year where a young autistic boy was roaming the streets along a busy highway wearing not much.So many people just ignored him. Turns out he was missing for a long time. He was later hit by a train which could have been prevented if someone had hae stopped. Its a shame that a man cant stop and help without having to worry about consequences of accusations.
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I don’t even know how to begin talking to my 6 yo son about this! I edge towards free-ranging, mainly because I want him to have confidence in himself. Even at his age, I notice that really over-protective parents produce kids that can’t think for themselves, and can’t cope with an unexpected situation, and I don’t really want that for my son.
But I don’t really know how to discuss it with him. I’ve made clear he’s never ever to get into anyone’s car.
But I can’t imagine how to say “don’t talk to strangers” – he’s quite literal, and really, I want him to be able to order lunch in a cafe, or to be able to ask for help in a shop! How do you explain the difference???
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Children understand the difference between responding politely and having a nice conversation with a stranger and going with them or dangerous behaviour. Once you emphasise that there is no way they should ever do various things (get in car, accept gifts if the parent’s not there, walk somewhere with the stranger, let the stranger touch them or let the stranger carry them etc) they are comfortable with the rest. And most kids like being told that they are allowed to yell their head off, kick someone in the shins and generally hurt them should a strange/known adult ever try to do anything to them or force them to go somewhere
The hardest part is how to manage things like leaving them alone with adults that you know, but don’t know. Like, how do you even decide when you are comfortable leaving your child with their friend’s parent. let alone warning the child of what are the danger signs? My friend was abused by her schoolfriend’s father. According to idle dad, he was trustworthy and there was no problem with him being left to mind them, it was just bad luck. My problem with this argument is that the rates of abuse are actually pretty significant. Just like the rates of violence against women are high. This is not a one-in-a-million chance. I say, keep the safeguards on.
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Thanks Willaway, I will try that. he’s the son of a scientist: everything is black and white to him, makes it hard to consider the shades of grey! But as you say it might be clear enough… Thanks!
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I really liked this post – thanks Chris. My oldest is just 3 so we haven’t crossed this bridge yet… but I really believe in the notion of free range parenting, and I hope I’m brave enough to ignore all the ‘stranger danger’ type messages and see it through. It’s a fine line – equipping our kids with with confidence and skills to react if an adult does do something to hurt them + develop faith and trust in adults and our community.
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I agree that sometimes you have to have a bit of faith in strangers – a friend and I travelled a few years ago (aged 21) through Turkey, Hungary, Bulgaria and Serbia on our own and with help from strangers we met along the way. Asking people where to find something, trusting they’re being honest and if you don’t believe them, ask another person to double check. Sometimes this can lead you to the most amazing people and experiences.
Kids do often know when something “isn’t right”. They used to be out all day and come back safe when the sun goes down. I don’t know if I believe that society is getting worse or if it’s that, with the help of the Internet, we hear more stories from all parts of the world.
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My pre-schooler came home one day from school after the police had visited for a friendly ‘stranger-danger’ talk. I asked her what she had learned: “Shopping centres are a good place to meet strangers”, she replied. Hmm.
My other daughter brought a book home from the library all about stranger danger. After it had been read she said “What a weird book”.
So I don’t know about this stranger danger message.
Kids don’t see “strangers” they see people. They naturally trust. And statisically they are a hell of a lot more likely to be abused by someone they know, not a stranger.
I’m with those in the teach-them-to-trust-their-gut camp. If it feels ‘off’ it is off. Get away fast, no matter who it is, and stuff needing to be “polite or nice”.
As a child I had a bad feeling about a family friend. I kept on and on about it to my Mum until finally she told me to stop being rude. Turned out he was sexually abusing young boys in his care.
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i actually agree but i just want to make the point that the reason parents are terrified by this stuff isn’t because of the probability of it happening. I can handle the thought of my child dying in a car accident or from choking on a sausage, even of cancer or some other illness (& I know a lot of people can’t handle those thoughts) what I can’t bear thinking about is what happened to Leiby.
My children trust strangers but sadly I’ve had to try to explain to them about the possibility of a very small minority of them meaning them harm (because of an incident in our local park). The thing is they don’t believe me. Despite overhearing snippets on the news they just can’t comprehend this sort of stuff. And even though I can handle the thought of my children getting hurt or even dying I can’t comprehend that sort of harm coming to them. Which is why I panic when they are out of my sight for any length of time. I really want to let them have their freedom, & to continue to trust, but I just don’t know.
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I wouldn’t necessarily tell my child to trust strangers. I believe in stranger danger, it isn’t a myth.
Having something bad happen even once is too much, and is enough to make the protectiveness worth it.
Having been ‘stranger’ assaulted myself – my life has since changed in that I am a lot more aware of my surroundings, and I don’t walk alone in certain situations.
I would rather teach my child to be wary of strangers – this doesn’t mean she can’t engage with her community, but it doesn’t make her blind to the idea that people can and do do crazy, unexpected things to people who don’t deserve it. I would rather my child grow up street-smart than naive.
It doesn’t matter that 9 out of 10 people are lovely, one bad experience is too much.
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My mum always told us that if we were lost, we should look for an elderly lady to talk to, and if there wasn’t an elderly lady then look for a family or a couple. I honestly think though that your instincts as a child rarely serve you wrong. If you know that someone makes you uncomfortable and that you should avoid them if you do, you can avoid so many problems.
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I agree, mostly. I think it is better to tell your child to look for an old lady or a woman with children if they need help, than to just ask anyone at hand.
It is not true that you can trust anyone. Some people might not hurt your child, but they may steal from them, or just not help in a good way. And not all children have good instincts about which strangers are nice.
Children are over-trusting of anyone with a ready smile who takes interest in them. In mass cultures, where there is frequent opportunity for anonymity, people will indulge behaviours and urges that they otherwise will not give in to. For example, it is well known that attendants for disabled people living in institutions are likely to sexually offend against their charges if good procedures are not in place to prevent it. Some psychologists believe that these people are more likely to offend just because there is opportunity and a low chance of being caught. Not because they are bad people.
Situations influence many of our choices. Children do need to be wary of people they don’t know. So do adults. The world that children live in is the same world that adults live in. Many adult women are assaulted over the course of their life by strangers or acquaintances, because opportunity presents itself to men they are near. The same danger is there for children. Acting like it is a remote random possibility is doing them as much of a disservice as over-protecting them and not teaching them how to discriminate between who is likely to be able to be trusted and who is not.
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It never surprises me, it really doesn’t, how even the most ardent feminists use sexism themselves.
I usually am not offended even when playing devils advocate, it’s usually water off a ducks back, but i am really offended by what you clearly think is totally okay.
Worse yet, you will use whatever ideology to dissonate men, but hold men men to the highest level of accountability if they did the SAME.
Equality is a 2 way street, it means if you don’t want sexism, then don’t be sexist.
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Any talk of feminism here is a red herring. What we are talking about is safety, children’s ability to keep themselves safe (and the limits on it) and hard evidence about who is most likely to do them harm in situations where they are alone. The statistics are clear, and if you’d like me to teach my children that women and men are equally likely to harm/not harm them, I would be telling them a lie.
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Actually being that you are a feminist, it is extremely relevant.
You take every single opportunity on this forum to bring up the plight of female violence victims at every turn.
If the mandate of feminism is equality and stopping discrimination of gender, then I think it’s entirely on the table with you spouting generalizations that men are dangerous.
Do you also tell them black people are more dangerous, coz that’s true too.
Where do you draw the line sexism or racism?
Live by the same rules you demand everybody else should.
Incidentally (or not) the 2 largest studies every conducted on the subject show domestic violence is 50.50, that is the primary aggressor is as often the female as the male.
There are a further 200 studies to support this evidence.
The argument that men at home are more violent than women is completely bunk.
Men are more frequently detained in domestic violence situations because unconstitutional laws demand that the MAN be detained pretty much unless he is dead. Totally without any proof – That is the law in most western civilizations.
Such perversions of justice heavily skew the perception of guilt.
Add to that, men almost never report violence when they are attacked.
A man is just as likely to be murdered by his spouse or shot or stabbed.
Men just don’t have millions of dollars in government departments pushing their cause or charities bringing their plight to every forum across the world, in fact if you are a man and you get your penis chopped of by your wife it’ll likely be the butt of joke rather than viewed for what it is.
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Wow. I think your comment will pretty much speak for itself.
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Toucheee
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And just a note – I don’t bring up violence against women at every turn. I comment on the topic when the article is *about* that topic. i.e. the nature of violence in our society.
Personal vendetta much? If you are such a free human being promoting freedom for others, why does my free feminist speech get so much up your nose that you need to resort to labelling the argument rather than answering it?
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“For example, it is well known that attendants for disabled people living in institutions are likely to sexually offend against their charges if good procedures are not in place to prevent it. Some psychologists believe that these people are more likely to offend just because there is opportunity and a low chance of being caught. Not because they are bad people.”
Are you suggesting that because the opportunity and lack of accountability is there, people who wouldn’t ordinarily sexually assault someone do?
I’d say it’s the other way round – those who are keen to assault people in this way go for jobs that allow them to get into situations where it can be done.
Either way, I’d like to see some figures of occurrences to back this claim.
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Yes, I am suggesting that about sexual assault of people who are vulnerable and unable to seek help. Some people may seek out these positions because they are aware of the vulnerability and want to abuse it. Others abuse the vulnerability simply because it is presented to them in that situation. A similar example is when young men find themselves in a situation where there is a “gang-bang” going on. SOme men who would never engineer such a situation will join in. Same with crowd behaviour in lots of situations. Same with individuals and behaviour in lots of situations.
Look up the case studies of institutions on the web.
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“Look up the case studies of institutions on the web.”
Come on Willaway, you’re better than that. You’re making the assertion. Back it up!
I think it would still be a tiny, tiny minority of people working in these situations that would do that.
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I honestly think you’ve missed the point. The point is that some people who are influenced to do this by being able to be anonymous are people who wouldn’t otherwise do it. Not that everyone would, not that most people would, but that the situation encourages more people to do it than otherwise would. That’s it. It’s not a big they’re-all-terrible-on-the-inside theory, it’s not anti-male, it’s simply about situations and behaviour. Are you more likely to put your finger up to someone you don’t know who cuts you off in the car, or to your sweet neighbour who cuts you off in the car once in a lifetime? Situations and anonymity.
Interestingly, the one functional use for stereotypes is in keeping us safe. Yes, it is a stereotype based on statistics and general experience that little old ladies are safer to be around than males. The vast majority of men aren’t horrible. There are some pretty foul little old ladies. But we’re talking about probabilities, and totting up the chances of what is safer. Is it safer for my daughter to ask that mother with two toddlers if she can help her ring her mother than it is to get into that car with the lovely man who offered to help her? Yes, on statistics, it will be. In reality, the nice man is likely to be absolutely lovely. There is a one in a million chance that the lovely mother is an axe murderer. Which course of action would your recommend?
And, no, I’m not going to supply statistics and refs for every opinion I express. have you sourced any stats or evidence for your opinion?
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I think you’re attributing way more than I have commented on. And my request for info still stands. You’re the one mentioning studies, provide the references.
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P.s you are the one answering the argument with a counter-argument – where is your evidence?
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Really? I find that extremely hard to believe.
What your saying is ordinary decent individuals if knowing they won’t be discovered would have no problems with sexually abusing a vunerable person…ridiculous.
I have cared for many people with varying disabilities over the years and not once while assisting them to maintain their dignity and respect their privacy did I ponder what it might feel like to sexually abuse them and then act on it. Sick.
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I did not say all people would do it in that situation. I said some. Some. Some. Some. nice that you’re all so sure some people are sick and others are good in every situation they are put in, but evidence suggests otherwise.
Remember the Donner party?
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I don’t really think it’s helpful telling kids that elderly ladies and women are the only one’s that would help, or could help. Do you have something against men willaway?
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No, I don’t – cheap snarky shot. I didn’t say only those people are safe, but that children should choose them to talk to if they are around. But statistics talk, and safe is safe.
Why is it that women who point out that more violence is committed by men than women and that we should heed that when interacting with people are called man-haters?
I actually get on well with men, and have just as many male friends who are genuinely close than female friends. At work, I have been told by men that they prefer working with me to working with women who interact with them more as ‘men’ than as ‘people’. I like men. I love my brothers. None of whom are horrible, violent, sexist pigs. I trust the men that I know and love just as much as the women I know and love.
None of that stopped me from being violently assaulted by a male. None of that stops me from being able to count male:female ratios in crime statistics. None of that stops me from appreciating the differences in male and female behaviour. I won’t treat individuals as though all people of their gender share the same traits. In situations of danger, however, I will use what I know to judge my chances of safety. I should be able to get in a lift in a carpark at night without fear of assault by the man inside, but can I? Would I feel differently about my chances of safety if an old woman was inside? According to you, I shouldn’t.
And p.s. the argument about the slutwalk is completely different. Just to be a party pooper again. The slutwalk argument is that victims should not be blamed for being attacked, NOT that they can go anywhere or trust anyone without fear of harm (though, that is what we would work for). Here the argument is not that children are being wrongfully blamed for bringing attacks on themselves, it is whether children should trust strangers or not.
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God I can’t believe how precious everyone is being! Willaway, I understand what you are saying and agree. I remember when I worked at David Jones back in uni days, and we were told by security that a small % of people would never shoplift no matter what, a small percentage of people will always shoplift because they are inherently dodgy, and the remainder – the majority, would Under certain circumstances – eg if they knew for sure they wouldn’t get caught, or their kid was starving. Now I’d say those % would be different for sexual abuse, but same principle most likely applies.
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It’s a pretty big suggestion though, you must admit. And questioning it isn’t being precious – it’s asking for more info.
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“it is well known that attendants for disabled people living in institutions are likely to sexually offend against their charges if good procedures are not in place”
BULLOCKS
before you make a shocking slur on care workers, maybe have some evidence to back it up? Oh right, you DON’T have any.
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It’s not a shocking slur on care workers, it’s an observation about what happens in life for vulnerable people. Just like elderly people in homes are also – shoot me, I’m the messenger – more likely to be physically abused and neglected than people who are more able-bodied. IT’s not because sadists line up to be care attendants. It’s because of contextual factors making it more likely for SOME people to offend who may not have done anything violent otherwise. Neither do sexual abusers line up to be care attendants. It’s a very small number who commit offences.
Nice that people want to defend human character, but it’s a head in the sand attitude. Cry for a full reference list when people don’t agree with your opinion – unsupported by evidence, where’s yours? – but thumbs up as soon as everyone’s floating the same line. I provided extra examples, easy to follow them up.
If those who have objected so stridently and, I’d say, rudely, want to maintain your opinion no matter what, that’s your choice. If you want to open your eyes, look at the evidence yourself – the web is at your fingertips. Every institutions in Australia caring for vulnerable people now has procedures in place to help prevent this abuse.
My points are all about avoidable risk in a mass culture where there is a high level of anonymity and a lot lower level of social checking of behaviour than in other periods of history with smaller social groupings. It is just not true that children can follow their gut instincts – look up your own evidence for that too, there’s truckloads, but I don’t notice Kris2040 or you providing any evidence for your opposite opinion. It is also not true that strangers, in general, should just be trusted. Giving directions and helping someone pick up a dropped bag is slightly different than trusting someone with your life.
Get real. Most of us wouldn’t leave our wallets with a stranger to mind, why would we tell our children everyone should be trusted? Being realistic doesn’t have to engender fear. Just being sensible.
It’s not about free-range vs helicopter-stifling. There’s a sensible middle-ground that allows chidren freedom and independence within the anonymous culture they often find themselves in. My child’s community is her school, her other activities, her family. It’s not everyone of the thousands of people who frequent the local shop.
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Love that advice…Im going to tell my kidlets!
Prayers for the family of this lost boy.
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Still, no evidence from you. If it’s so easy to look up, take 2 minutes and find a link. And as you are the one making the outrageous statement, the onus is on YOU to back it up.
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I would say I fall somewhere in the middle of over protective and free range, in that I LOVE the idea of free range parenting and would love to class myself as such, and my partner is very much a free range parent, but sometimes I need to be “talked around” when it comes to my own fears and anxieties. But Im aware that that’s just what they are – MY fears and ME focussing on the worst case scenerio. I dont want my kids to view the world in worst case scenerios. I want them to be AWARE of the worst, and be prepared for it, but not EXPECT it as a given, if that makes sense.
They know that if you feel unsafe or uncomfortable, whether with someone you know or not, you can just walk away from that person and tell the nearest adult. If they wont leave you alone, let them know that you are done talking, and walk away from them. If you are lost, tell somebody that you need help. Also the basic “Stranger Danger” stuff – dont get in anyone elses car unless I say its ok, if someone tries to take you somewhere you dont want to go (ie if youre lost in a shopping centre and someone tries to walk you outside) yell that you dont want to go so others can hear you etc.
At the same time, I encourage them to say hello to people, I get them to pay for things they want to buy themselves and talk to the person behind the counter, to run off and play without waiting for me to be right behind them the whole time as long as they stay within whichever boundary Ive given them, to play with kids they dont know etc.
I remember one time when I was 17 – I had just moved out of home and was in a new city for the first time. I was standing at a bus stop and there was a man who wouldnt leave me alone, he was being creepy and to be honest he scared me. Being 17 and alone, I didnt know what to do. Two other women at the bus stop saw that I was scared, and stood between me and the man and told him to piss off. Thankfully in my experience, that is what most strangers are like (the women, not the man). for every one creepy, scarey person there is a group of other people willing to help you out. And I want my kids to know that.
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“Because communities keep us safe.” I completely agree with this Chris, and I think its perhaps the most important point of all those you make. We cannot just bemoan how scary and dangerous the world is, because each and every one of us is part of it. Every time we teach a child to fear someone just because they don’t happen to have met them before (“stranger danger”), we reinforce the very things we fear, because we undermine community.
As many others have said below, I’m trying to teach my kids to trust their gut, as well as to recognise the sorts of behaviour that are actually suspicious – such as an adult asking them to keep something a secret from mum and dad, or bad touching etc.
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Bravo! This is what I believe too! I started traveling interstate by myself at the age of 15 (for schooling reasons), and overseas by myself at the age of 20 (career reasons – and I’ve been to many so called ‘danger spots’). I have had very, very few problems. I too believe that the vast majority of people in this world are good, and I am sick to death of loud negativity.
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I think kids should be aware of stranger danger. I also think that they should be encouraged to trust their instincts (which are often very good) and ask strangers for help when they need it.
Trusting their instincts also goes for people they know. The fact that kids are more likely to be abused by someone they know and/or love means that they need to be encouraged to trust their instincts and speak up when something doesn’t feel right.
Like some of the other commenters (if that’s a word), I think teaching kids about good touching and bad touching is absolutely key in helping them shape their ideas about what is OK and what shouldn’t happen.
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I think the opposite is true – that it is because children can *not* trust their gut that we need to make sure opportunity doesn’t present itself to people they know to offend against them. In many cases, it is children’s tendency to trust and like people who “groom” them which is relied upon by molesters to do what they want to do. It is precisely because they are not sure if something is right, because they have confusing signals to decode, that many children do not immediately tell someone.
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I have a 2.5year old boy who is so lovely and open to whoever he comes into contact with … So when exactly do you start talking about stranger danger and all that. He runs away sometimes in the shopping centre which is scary but so far I have always managed to chase the little tyke down. Please… when do I start talking to him about this? Oh and btw there is a book called ‘Everyone has a bottom’ (avail online at Huggies website) that is great for teaching little one’s about what is ok and what it not;’from your head to your toes, you say what goes’.
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I don’t know either! Thanks for the book info though – that is a great idea and im going to track down a copy!
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I read ‘The Gift Of Fear’ by Gavin De Bekker and would recommend that everyone read it. I now encourage my children to follow their instincts and intuition and that if they are uncomfortable in a situation, it is ok to walk away. It is OK to not say Hi to someone they don’t know if they are uncomfortable. It’s OK not to sit on Santa’s lap if you don’t want to. by forcing them to do so, we are disabling their natural defences and insticts.
I agree with the comments of you are more likely to be abused by someone you know, I experienced it as a child. It is very wrong to put in the childrens mind the ‘Monster’ image of people that do bad things.
Rest in peace little angle..
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I totally agree, that book “The Gift of Fear” is fantastic. We must trust our instincts, and teach our children to do the same, not teach them to think that the whole world is out to get them.
When my children ask, I tell them that these situations are tragic and terrible and sad and scary, but they are extremely rare. I empower them to trust their judgement and instinct, and to actively seek help from an adult when they are worried or scared. By them choosing the adult to assist them, they are less likely to be “chosen” by a predator with sinister intentions when they look lost or scared.
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Thanks! This book is on the wishlist!
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In the recent post about kids not climbing trees any more (kids, go climb…you know yada yada yada) I recounted my feral childhood…the thing about that was, even though I spent a lot of time without adult supervision, I was never alone…I was always with other kids…and there were always older kids looking after the younger ones…
I don’t have kids myself, so I can’t really be sure, but I’m not sure that kind of community culture exists any more…
Having said that, I do agree with Chris…I do think it’s important to let Kids be exposed to situations where they need to make their own decisions, right or wrong, and learn from their mistakes…how else will they learn to cope with adulthood and learn how to think for themselves?
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This is exactly the part of the argument that is always missing – the fact the children’s independence in the past was in groups, not as sole 5 year olds on their own. Safety in numbers.
Add to that the fact that most children lived in neighbourhoods where *known* adults, not strangers, were home in their houses most of the day, every day – i.e. wives and mothers, or grandmothers, or elderly neighbours in the true sense of the word – i.e. known. Everyone had eyes and ears for the kids that were around. There was always someone to turn to, someone that you knew.
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Thank you for writing this piece. I have never spoken up about my feelings on the subject other than to my husband for fear of others judgement and misunderstanding.
I am a product of over protective parents who tried to protect me from everything. In my late teens and early 20′s I suffered severely with anxiety and agrophobia. After much counselling we have established that my fears all stem from my fear and concern that if I am on my own in a public place and something happens (I fall, get lost or sick) nobody will help me. In essence I have no faith or trust in our society and do not feel comfortable in public.
I would not wish this on anybody and least of all my own daughter. It is a horribble and constricting life to live. I am much better now but my axiety and fear will never be 100% gone.
I hope somebody reading this who disagrees with the article stops and thinks twice about the lifelong impact you can have on a child. Be a parent – leave the headlines and worst case scenarios to the media.
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Hi Carly,
I honestly think you’d love the Free Range website http://freerangekids.wordpress.com/ and Lenore’s book.
The website and book are full of great examples of community and fighting back against the idea that you can’t trust anyone.
I can’t speak for everyone, but if you fell over, I’d help. I’m a bit scruffy looking though, so beat me up.
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My mother fell over, on her face, breaking her nose, and on her knees, breaking her kneecap. She grazed her hands. SHe is a well-dressed 69 year old woman. She was alone. She was in front of a busy garden shop in an average-to-well-off suburban neighbourhood. Nobody helped her up. The two girls following her on the footpath stepped around her and continued on their way. When she went into the shop for assistance, with her face bleeding and obviously distressed, they finished serving the customer before asking her what she wanted. When she asked for a tissue and a chair, she was handed a dish cloth and told they had no chairs. Then left to her own devices. She had to drive to my house for help. No one suggested calling help for her.
Community? I guess if you’d been there you would have been the one to help her up. No one else did. This lack of action can’t be blamed on fear of being branded a paedophile…
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I was talking about ‘stranger danger’ just two days ago, and how my 3 & 5yo children are friendly & social. I said to my friend that there is one nutter/evil person amongst 1000′s…. and in honesty – if they wanted to hurt a child I don’t know how much “stranger danger” would impact. If a child was lost, it would be more likely that 10,000 adults would have helped Leiby find his home (particularly in the Chassidic community). Unfortunately, poor Leiby fell victim to one evil person. When the 9/11 planes were hijacked I heard so many people say they wouldn’t fly. But then… more people die every day when they get in their cars and drive to work. Does it stop them from driving? Everything needs to be put into perspective. My sincere condolences to the Kletzky family and their community. I will hug my children a little more tonight.
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My daughter gets stranger danger stuff from kindy… and I wish they didn’t. She is FAR more likely to get abused by someone she knows, so we’ve spent a lot more time talking about good touching and bad touching, about good and bad secrets and about how no one is allowed to touch her under her clothes unless mummy or daddy is there. One of my friends was appalled about my attitude, asking if I really thought someone we knew and/or loved would hurt my child? Unfortunately the answer is no, I don’t think so, but I don’t know…
I am so sorry for this child’s loss but is this guy was going to take him there was nothing anyone could do to prevent it.
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What a tragic story. My heart breaks for Leiby. RIP.
This is a timely piece for us because we are thinking about the stranger danger message with our children, 3 and 4. We have 2 beautiful trusting little souls who will strike up a conversation with anyone in public and I am so scared that the stranger danger message will affect this. Just the other day at the park with our dogs 3 elderly people (a man driving, and 2 woman passengers) stopped in their car. My son wandered over to have a chat as he does (his dad followed closely) and they had a lovely chat about dogs etc and then the gentleman offered my son a piece of licorice for him and his sister. Because this was supervised and genuinely just a kind grandparent like thing to do we were ok with it but later we discussed how text book bad it could be! We tried later to discuss with our children about how it was ok because mummy and daddy were there but how on earth do you explain all of this to preschoolers? All we could come up with is ‘most strangers are nice people but sometimes they are not and its only ok to accept a lolly if mummy and daddy are with you and you would never get into a car with anyone you didnt know’. What a bloody mouthful!!!! And really did they take it in? I don’t think so.
We have chatted about getting lost many times and the kids can now repeat this back to us ‘If I get lost I would ask a police officer for help or another mummy with kids’.
On another sad point – arent children much more likely to be hurt (ie sexually abused) by someone they love and trust (family member / close friend)? Why is the stranger danger story so palatable but sexual abuse still so taboo a subject for society to discuss?
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You are correct, children are far more likely to be abused/kidnapped/murdered by someone they know, and that person is far more likely to be a relative than a neighbour or teacher or respected community member (like a priest).
Like JosieY above, I strongly support teaching good touching and bad touching and private parts, and like many others mentioning below, teaching children to trust their gut – if someone is making you feel uncomfortable, avoid them, run away or speak to another close by adult.
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Thanks Chris, sorry I didn’t mean you were suggesting we avoid talking about child sexual abuse – more that society as a whole and the media doesnt really take it on. We all know the child drowning, stranger danger, sun and road safety campaigns off by heart but isnt it time that a campaign to tell kids YOU ARE THE BOSS of your own body was around? Perhaps it is in school – im not sure my kids arent there yet. I just know I have way too many friends and family members who have lived with guilt and shame and feel they are to blame as a result of sexual abuse. Thanks for prompting the discussion Chris – I do agree with your article.
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H! I didn’t misunderstand your comment! I was adding in my two cents in agreement!
I thought your story about the nice older couple was great!
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Ahh cool!
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Sadly, your final point is so valid. Those potential “life ruiners” are so often known
I love that book “The Gift of Fear” by Gavin De Becker… I think I’d be teaching elements of that to my (future) children….. Humans will go in to lifts (Eg sealed metal rooms) with people that they don’t feel comfortable with. It’s mad really.
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Thanks for the book info Susan. Ill have a read!
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I agree with your philosophy on children. In theory, I would like my kids to be independant enough to do things without me watching them, like go to the playground in our little village (I live in a townhouse). In reality, I don’t have any, so how can I tell? I suppose I’ll find out my parenting style when I become one. But so far I’m basing it on how I “parent” my neices and my stepdaughter.
Teaching our kids to use their intuition is probably the best thing we can teach them. If they don’t feel comfortable with someone, leave, but they do need to speak to, and obey, some strangers.
I’m an EA and I see a lot of people making appts to see the person I’m an EA for. Sometimes they bring their kids to the appts. I have never had any issue with the kids being left with me (even babies) or the kids being happy to obey and trust me (they need to obey me with staying quiet and keeping in my sight). However, they don’t attempt to speak to a woman I work near who hates kids.
They know. I think they know a lot more than we give them credit for.
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Yes….Agreed…, But age is a factor too.
What about 3 or 4 or 5 year olds. For example My little neices (3 and 4) are smart cookies… but I don’t expect a savviness or good character judgement from them
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I don’t know – the other day I was minding a 3 year old & a 4 year old for someone. The 4yo took one look at the woman I’m talking about above and walked back to me. They also did what I told them with no hesitation. Maybe they’re a bit different, I’d never met them before & I don’t know them, but kids right from babies seem to have innate sense about who to trust and who not to, even though a lot of this comes from their parents.
I don’t think 3 or 4 year olds should be left on their own, they’re a bit young for that, but I do think they can judge character, maybe not in a deep way but certainly in a gut feel.
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You may not expect it, but it doesn’t mean it’s not there! Kids are very savvy as to who they trust and who is safe to be with and who isn’t. As Miss-T has explained. Most kids are very in-tune with the vibes people give off.
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I agree with a lot of this… Kids can have better instincts than adults because they don’t have the same social obligations.
But I do think if that was the case, sexual abuse (esp with people who are not strangers) wouldn’t be so rife. I guess I’m a little jaded as I work with Foster Children. Predators are so smart…. That grooming stuff. It’s pretty sinister. I don’t know that I wouldn’t have fallen for it as a child.
ps. “explained” feels a little patronizing. I don’t mean any offence by this. Just sayin’
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Recounted, then? She did explain further what she meant. Anyhoo…
If most molestation happens by people known to the family, then I think their lack of social obligation doesn’t apply – I bet you’re polite to your parents friends and relos because your parents expect you to be, rather than some random. Even if you do feel uncomfortable around their friend or whoever.
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Ok, the danger in saying what Miss-T said about relying on kid’s instincts is that it puts the onus of knowing the difference on to kids. Some times kids have to go to strangers. I know as a social worker I have to transport kids all the time. They don’t know me from a bar of soap and they come in my car. I don’t wear a uniform. They are fostered so often I don’t know their parents. Kids need support in establishing boundaries. I don’t know how much education is too much.
I dunno. Childhood can be full of contradictions: “Respect your elders”, “have good manners” “try and help people when you can”…. Sadly this is contrary to personal safety. For example kids will often help a person who says “I’ve lost my puppy” . Cos of the nicieties stuff. And because kids are atruistic.
Explaining is different to stating of saying. Semantics but important semantics
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I think kids know the situations where they can trust adults and where they can’t though. So they know that teachers and people in your position can be trusted, but if it was at the park or someone tried to isolate them, they know it isn’t kosher.
I don’t think anyone is saying leave it totally up to the kids to rely on their instincts, I think we’re both (and others) are saying that kids aren’t dumb and do have pretty good instincts and that they shouldn’t be discounted because of fears that adults have.
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Lots of really good points raised by both of you here.
I guess there isn’t really any cure-all answer, is there?
From this I’ve taken that we agree kids have good instincts, and we should trust their instincts as well as they should, but they can’t be totally responsible for judging character.
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My two cents is, you are the best judge of your own children.
If they aren’t ready to walk down the street by themselves at 7 in your opinion, then they aren’t. If you think they might not be able to judge character corerctly, then you’d know.
Just because next door might have a kid full of confidence at 5 doesn’t mean another child is ‘behind’. Everyone matures differently.
And as long as you spend time in your community (studies show the more time spent watching TV, the more dangerous people judged their local community), YOU are the best judge about how safe it is.
Overall, I think that stranger danger and the attitude of “don’t talk to anyone or trust anyone to help” is damaging, and it is far more important to provide options for your child to take when they feel they are in trouble.
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You have raised SUCH an important point here – every child is different.
One thing I’m really grateful about where I live in a village of townhouses (in groups of 2 or free standing, mine is the latter) everybody knows each other, everyone talks to my cat, kids play in the street, we have our own playground. I like it because it felt more like a community to me.
When I set my kitchen on fire (Hmm… maybe I shouldn’t be trusted with other people’s children
) all the neighbours came out of their houses and stood around the street. They all ran up to me as soon as I appeared to check that I was OK and to find out what happened. Half of them I hadn’t even met. I like that.
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Agreed.
But abuse can still happen. Despite your judgement. Despite the child’s judgement. My view is coloured by the fact that I see it every single day (so I may be over-estimating the prevalence of it).
I don’t intend to molly coddle my kids for this reason but I do think the responsibility goes beyond the child and the parent and on all of us in the community.
Because if it does happen: it’s not the “fault” of the parent or the child but of the predator…And also those who see things happen and don’t do anything.
The sexual abuse victims that I have worked aren’t dumb at all. Predators can be very clever.
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I was actually going to ask whether you were over-estimating when you mentioned your job.
Someone mentioned in a post last week/week before, that people watch stuff like SVU and the like, and because child abuse stories are exciting, they then extrapolate the prevalence of stories to real life, when it is far from the case. I would imagine that if that is what you deal with day in and out, you’d think it was happening more than it actually is, statistically and practically speaking…
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But if you watch SVU you should be saying to yourself “It’s just a tv show”…
I’m glad to see the darker side of humanity because it makes me really cherish my family and friends and weekends.
Some people just have really dud luck.
I count myself so lucky that I haven’t experienced any major instances of trauma but I do find myself overly sensitive when I hear or see stuff like child abuse, domestic violence. The warning signs are like a blaring siren.
Child safety is such a balance. I’m not one of those torch bearing Family First nuts!
It would be equally easy to be a bit lapsidaisical because you want your child to enjoy their childhood as it would be to be the helicopter parent. Who know how much is enough.
Heck, our kids will no doubt blame us either way!!
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I do think many kids can sense something is ‘off’ for what of a better word. But the question is, then what? We need to tell them it is okay to say no to a stranger and shout it to the world, that it’s okay to scream out that the person is not their mother, father, grandfather etc. We need to teach them the actions and practice them. My son’s karate group learnt not only stranger danger but what to do if you get grabbed, then practiced them every week. The likelihood they can over-power an adult is low (though my son knows all the soft bits), but screaming key phrases is more likely to get people to pay attention. You hope they will intervene (though that seems less these days) but at the very least it will have created a memory in passersby which may help later. Add in the good and bad touching, and creating an environment that your children can tell you anything and that you’ll always love them, and you hope your child is prepared. I do think the idea of creating community is key as we are such a fractured society these days.
Reading that I sound like an over-protective mum, but my kids do play in the street, ride their bikes around our area, and my older teenager takes public transport, so it’s not all bubble wrap and cotton wool
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I didn’t read that and think you were an overprotective mum, you’re arming them with ways to deal with situations and I think that’s really important.
I know lots of helicopter parents who won’t take their eyes off their kids for 2 seconds, even in a relative’s house or their own, THEY are overprotective parents
.
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Thanks Miss T. It’s a fine line these days and I never know if I’m too protective or not. I think we can hope our kids will know what to do, but we do have to give them the skills to be able to do it. Like everything in life you try to prepare them as best as you can for the situations when you wont be around.
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Couldn’t agree more with you Chris.
I’ve mentioned this on here before but it’s relevant: in Queensland state education where I was before this, we changed the term from ‘stranger danger’ because the reality was, more often than not, strangers were not the dangerous ones. Those known to a child were. And even then it’s all just a fraction of a society which is overwhelmingly good.
Love this piece Chris.
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Thanks Rick.
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