You may remember Jacinta Tynan from the controversy her article Motherhood is Easy caused a few weeks back here. THIS IS NOT ANOTHER POST ABOUT THAT. Or it is but only a little bit. This is a post about judgement. The judgement we give and receive about parenting – even if you don’t have children.
Journalist, author and broadcaster Jacinta writes……
It started within hours of giving birth. A woman suggested – almost as an accusation – that I may not be able to breastfeed because I’d had a caesarean. “But … but … I went through 48 hours of labour and only had a caesar because the doctor said I had no choice!” I wanted to protest. I felt a primal need to defend myself, even though I have absolute reverence for any which way of giving birth and see none as superior to the other.
It was my first taste of the mummy judgment calls, so far removed from the mummy sorority I was also welcomed into with casseroles and cots delivered to the door and wisdom in spades. Because beneath the camaraderie lurks an undercurrent of censure most vocal from within our own camp. We mothers are, too often, our own worst enemies.
It’s as if there exists a right way to do things, only no one knows what that is. To breastfeed or not? And for exactly how long? Co-sleeping or baby down the hall with a monitor? Controlled crying or jumping every time he stirs? Dummy? Immunisation? Work or stay at home? Nanny or childcare? We might assume these are options, but the decision has already been made by a band of Other Mothers who think they know best and are not afraid to say so.
I know. I have been there. My own mummy judgment reached fever pitch when I wrote a story for Sunday Life (August 1 issue), about how joyful I find motherhood, suggesting we focus on the privilege of it, even when it gets tough. “At last” was the resounding response. But to my regret it was interpreted by some – a vocal and vitriolic minority – as a betrayal of the motherhood code.
I inadvertently unleashed the ugly side of motherhood. The side – which we’re all partly guilty of – where we vilify those who don’t think like us.
You can’t possibly know what you’re talking about – as is helpfully pointed out by Other Mothers – unless your baby is one, two, has started school, reached puberty or left home. Or unless you have at least two babies or, even better, three. Don’t even think about chiming in unless you’re a stay-at-home mum, according to some. Or work and juggle childcare, according to others. Which leaves a very narrow window for those deemed to have a legitimate opinion on motherhood.
There wouldn’t be such a chorus of dissent if we had to show our faces. But when a set of initials will do, it gives rise to all manner of uncensored opinions. The rapid rise of mummy blogs – born of such good intent – has made it open slather. Advice from other mums is a vital connection that has literally kept us going for centuries, and the web is the wider-reaching, modern-day version of that, the virtual chat over the back fence without even getting out of your PJs. But it’s not always the supportive community you might crave. Anonymity has the potential to whip up a cliquey spite-fest bringing down anyone who doesn’t toe the line. But what is that line?
Dedicated full-time-mother websites credit themselves with “bringing up the next generation”, firing salvos at working mums for “neglecting” their babies by farming them off to “childcare factories”. Stay-at-home mums are accused of neglecting themselves. Offline, judgment masquerades as helpful hints. “Don’t pick him up when he cries,” other mothers berate. “You’re not still breastfeeding, are you?” when it was revealed I was “still” feeding at nine months. Any longer and I would have raised the ire of the anti-extreme-breastfeeding brigade. Any less and I’d risk the wrath of Gisele Bündchen.
We wouldn’t be at each other’s throats if we thought we were good at it. But we are a generation where mothering has morphed from instinct to another potential achievement – or failure – fuelling our insecurities and defensiveness as we protect our patch. It is Other Mothers – who might be doing it “better” – who have become our nemeses.
Especially those looking on the bright side. As one mum wrote to me: “Good on you for saying what I, and many other mums, couldn’t say.”
But you can also get into trouble crying out for help. I doubt I would have elicited much sympathy – especially with one healthy baby – had I lamented my lot. My fellow newsreader Juanita Phillips did just that and was pilloried for it. Her upbeat book, A Pressure Cooker Saved My Life, about juggling work and family, was classified by one critic as a “misery mumoir”. Another article – titled Mother Inferior – dubbed her infamous on-air breakdown “fashionable” and ordered her to “stay home and look after your children” and “let” – yes, “let” – her husband return to work. Would she then be allowed to speak up?
We should make a pact to stop right here. To accept we’re all doing the best we can and be there for each other when it’s challenging. And when it’s not.
My mum has the right idea. With six children and eight grandchildren she must be champing at the bit to say her piece, but she never does.
Judgment is never helpful. Advice, though, is a different matter – and something every one of us is qualified to give.
*this article originally appeared in Sunday Life magazine. You can find Jacinta’s piece about feeling guilty when she fell pregnant here.
Ever since becoming a mother, I’ve thought that people without children know far more about parenting than actual parents. Lord knows I was a much more knowledgable parent before I became a mother. I knew EVERYTHING then. Especially how other people should be raising their children. Now? Not so much.
What do you reckon? Do you find yourself judging other women? Do you find yourself being judged? What for?







Comments
257 Comments so far
My mother always taught me to never judge other people’s style of parenting or their children because you never know what you will be like when it is your turn. Maybe a few people should keep that in mind and also remember the saying “if you have nothing good to say, don’t say anything at all.”
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As a woman currently pregnant with my first child, I can totally relate to this article. After reams of unsolicited ‘advice’, which comes in spades from both women who have and haven’t had their own children, I have recently reached my limit with some particular know-it-alls and have responded with… “You know what another word for unsolicited advice is? Judgement”. Shuts them right up!
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I only judge when the mother and child behaviour is outlandish and unsocial – like the little kid who wipes his nose on my skirt and the mother who giggles and smiles with adoration. Then I judge till the cows come home.
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Still dining off this one eh? Have confidence in your own choices and be happy. Most mums I know are too busy to bother judging anybody. Not that judgement is a bad word/deed – didn’t Mia write a great article about that?
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I am 17 weeks pregnant, 37 years old. I plan to hear everyone’s arguments and then do as I damn well please, as I have always done.
I got a bit of practice planning my wedding (got married 6 weeks again – man o man the final throes of wedding planning while suffering from extreme fatigue and nausea – that’s some fun stuff) – another topic on which everyone has an opinion. Bless.
I do wonder why people feel the need to offer unsolicited opioions about stuff. I try REALLY hard not to do it, having been a terrible culprit in my feminazi youth. My bestie tells me I am the most objective person she knows (which is very kind of her) though also that I can say a lot with a raised eyebrow (oops, betrayed by my own body). It might be because I am not allowed to offer personal advice at work so I don’t in my private life anymore either.
I do think that it would be helpful if we could find new ways to express ourselves to our sisters (and fellas too). Information sharing is apparantly what us girls are awesome at, so howzabout we think about using non judgemental language when we present our ideas to each other – say ‘hey some people like to do such and such with their babies, maybe this is something you could do’ instead of ‘you should do such and such’.
I try and imagine how I might feel if I were the other person in my interactions, which also helps tread on less toes…
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Judging each other on our wealth, status, intelligence, appearance etc. – and that of our family and friends as an extension of us, has been around since time immemorial.
I have only recently found myself beginning to understand that people’s opinions and judgements are just that – theirs! I have been trying (not always successfully) to listen to what others have to say, consider it, adopt, adapt or pass on it, and then move on (remembering that others will apply this to my judgements or opinions).
The Mother’s club is like any other, it is made up of many members, from many walks of life, with many ‘experts’ in the field – espousing many opinions and judgements. It can be a rich club in terms of resources, knowledge and support…but just like shopping, I’ve found it saves a lot of wasted time and energy if I just take what fits me and leave the rest for others who might like it better.
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Yawn. I have no idea why I just read this. For some reason I was expecting insight instead of the old “please don’t judge each other” routine. I myself would like to stand up and say: I am a good person, but yes, I also judge and generalise and stereotype other people (including other mothers) at times.
To a certain degree, these much-maligned practices are essential for understanding our place in the world. A bit crude, a bit small minded, a bit cruel… yes yes yes, but… it’s also the plain truth of being a human being. We are complex, multi-dimensional creatures, and it’s not all nice… not all “casseroles and wisdom.”
The much more important thing is knowing WHEN to give voice to your opinions, and when to be silent; when to gloss over the truth a little, in order to live cohesively, and when to simply give comfort to someone who’s having a tough time… As many mothers of young children are.
Well, besides Jacinta.
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This is an awesome article. When I am in judgement zone, I do my best to pull myself up. I look at it from the other persons perspective.
I still breastfeed my toddler, I use no chemicals on my son. I co sleep. I use cloth nappies. I cook. I clean.
BUT, I send my son to daycare. I do not eat organice yet etc.
My sisters are COMPLETELY opposite. They Bottlefed. Did controleld cryinfg. Do not educate their toddlers like I do. They used disposables, chemicals, etc. THEY ARE GOOD MUMS who are doing the best they can with the information they had.
Am I a better mum because I choose to make informed decisions for my son? NO. I too have made some grave mistakes. It is what it is. I am doing the best I can just like they are. I love my sisters and they love me. The fact that we parent so differently makes no difference. We feed off each other and learn from each other. My youngest sister just had her first. She has her 3 eldest sisters to look up to. She breastfeeds now and will not engage in controlled crying, because the information I gave makes more sense to her than what my other sisters gave. Does that mean, she does not respect them as parents? NO. She will simply take on their modelling in other ways. We can all learn from each other
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Hmm – sometimes I wonder if we ever really did grow up when we became adults? Seems like all the nick-picking and “he-said-she-said” comments are the same fights we got in trouble as kids.
Eg “Her tone was smug and judgemental in her first piece”… Really? Does it matter? The original article was about enjoying motherhood, even when it’s hard, and yet women decided to take it as a personal stab at their parenting skills.
This article is clearly about championing other women in their differing parenting styles, and yet again women are taking it to be about being judged. And then saying it’s about the same topic…
I’m very confused as to why this keeps happening? I agree with what someone wrote below, had it been Mia’s or someone elses name on this, the comments would be completely different.
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this paragraph:
[quote]There wouldn’t be such a chorus of dissent if we had to show our faces. But when a set of initials will do, it gives rise to all manner of uncensored opinions. The rapid rise of mummy blogs – born of such good intent – has made it open slather. Advice from other mums is a vital connection that has literally kept us going for centuries, and the web is the wider-reaching, modern-day version of that, the virtual chat over the back fence without even getting out of your PJs. But it’s not always the supportive community you might crave. Anonymity has the potential to whip up a cliquey spite-fest bringing down anyone who doesn’t toe the line. But what is that line?[/quote]
clearly is directed to the people who commented on her first piece.
the 2 pieces are related: this one is an answer to the comments she recieved. it didn’t happen randomly…
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I think there’s some great advice peppered throughout the comments: try not to let any of the judgment deeply affect you, and take away from the joy of having a child. (And as someone yet to have children I’ll try to remember this in the future.)
Life is too short to always be worrying about what others think of you.
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this article was an interesting read on someone’s point of view. That’s about it, really.
Can we have a feelgood post please?
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I find the problem is not other women. If I feel judged it is really just me just feeling odd because I am doing it differently to them.
Most of the time the other person isn´t judging just doing it differently.
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I have to say,i am surprised this subject keeps on popping up.Let’s face it,women,and particularly mothers,will always judge each other,either openly or behind each others backs.
I’m mostly here for Bradleys Pearls of Wisdom.
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I know you are just being flippant Anoushka, but I think it’s interesting that people can just accept that we will be judgemental of others and not try to change that or even express that it might be wrong. Yes, we are always going to have an opinion about what others do. The things we can strive for is that we don’t force our opinions on others and make them feel bad, that we accept that we are all different, I’m not even talking about parenting, just living.
Judgemental attitudes pervade society like a cancer and that is how we have found ourselves in bad situations.
Those girls who shot themselves in Colorado – it would seem they were subjected to judgement throughout their lives and look how that ended.
Think of the bigger picture, we can walk around judging each other for our differences and our choices, or we can get on with our own lives and make good in the world instead of trying to make others feel like crap because of our own insecurities and ideals.
I don’t think it’s something we should accept, it’s an ugly side of human nature that we should be trying to overcome. That’s my opinion anyway.
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I wasn’t really trying to be flippant,i’m afraid…
You have put it very well though yos,and i do agree with you on all points.
I just think we have no other choice than accepting that being judgemental of others is unfortunately a big part of human nature…and yes,it all comes back to being insecure in ourselves.We need to constantly compare our lifes to others in order to feel good about ourselves.
Yes,it’s wrong,yes,it’s ugly,and it’s sad too.
Of course we can all try to change this in our own little worlds,but i think the bigger picture looks much less rosy…
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I just realised….
HOW DAMN CUTE IS JACINTA’S BABY!
I want one.
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I think the problem is that people often feel they are giving advice or offering an opinion… But when it is unsolicited (and very often given in inappropriate situations – the grocery store – by people we don’t know) it comes across as judging.
I agree that most of the time people are truely trying to help out, it’s not always done in the most tackful manner.
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Knowing that comments = dollars in the blogging world I think that the powers that be at Mamamia might well be milking this topic knowing that it will AGAIN attract loads of comments and traffic.
JT writes quite nicely, if we need another post by her, lets have a totally new angle. Bored with this topic, let’s move on. There is plenty more to write about in relation to motherhood.
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I hope it is not becoming a theme on this blog. All this negativity. First J is put up for smashing, and then a blog on HATE Gwyneth or not?
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I think if this article was written by Mia we would see completely different comments.
It’s a real shame too, because I think it’s a great subject but because Jacinta Tynan put her name on it, it is read in a different tone.
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I believe that I agree with you, L.
If Mia was to write that day was night, the pitchfork brigade would be defending the statement with their lives.
Certainly I’ve seen this mob mentality expressed on other blogs, the host throwing up an article or a topic that he/she personally doesn’t agree with. The acolytes march forward stabbing at any infidel who dares to support the dissenting view.
I read this blog for at least a week before I first decided to comment. As I’ve put forward dissenting views, I’ve felt just how sharp some of those pitchforks are !
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Bradley, if my husband spent as much time on Mamamia as you do I would be seriously worried!!!
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*BELLY LAUGHING* !!
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Why, exactly, would you be worried? What is wrong with a man taking an interest in a blog – sorry, website – that, while it may attract predominantly female readers, is a fairly big and well-known Australian site that posts on a range of issues?
What a lovely attitude to take…
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Hi Lilevi. As my wife is female, I’m naturally interested in issues that she’s interested and concerned about.
This blog provides us with some great material for conversations.
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I do think you’re right to an extent L.
I believe if this article was written by someone who had always been well-balanced and sensitive when talking about motherhood themselves, perhaps the reaction wouldn’t seem so negative.
However, because Jacinta is guilty of what she has written about above, it hasn’t been well received.
Bradley, I don’t think you’re being fair on the commenters who are presenting fair & legitimate arguments here.
Im really taking offense to your labelling those who beg to differ the “pitchfork brigade”.
It is just inflaming an already sensitive topic.
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that’s what Bradley does. his day is not complete unless he elicits a hostile response from someone and then he claims that people are dismissing his opinions out of hand.
with an almost poetic hyperbole to boot, that I appreciate.
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My poetic hyperbole has never been appreciated in such a public way before !
The cheque is in the post, yos !
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To anyone who is presenting or who has presented fair and legitimate arguments on any topic discussed on the Mamamia blog…you obviously already know that my references to “the pitchfork brigade” are not directed at you.
My very sincere apologies if you thought that I was including you in that grouping.
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Obviously then you’re talking about a tiny percentage of people Bradley, clearly people who aren’t worth mentioning, especially not every time you come across a post that reflects your thoughts.
Its pretty obvious how you feel on this subject, as it is how I feel. I just don’t think that labelling certain commenters is fair, especially not when they’re a group of passionate people who intend only on getting their thoughts across.
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“To anyone who is presenting or who has presented fair and legitimate arguments on any topic discussed on the Mamamia blog”…
Are you referring to comments that present a point of view you agree with?
What constitutes a fair and legitimate argument? Maybe you should write some guidelines, so we all know how to write the right thing.
I would look forward to reading them!
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This comes across as a little bit mean – I am sure the writer meant by “fair and legitimate comments” that they should be genuine opinions. Not meanness or personal sarcastic attacks on other writers just because they have different opinions. This seems to be a little bit of Bradley’s issue – some of his comments come across rather like personal attacks which can be hurtful and inflammatory. And using the dinner party test – well I’m not sure he would be someone you would want to invite if he is prepared to be quite so hurtful to other guest’s faces. The written word can be a difficult thing though, I’m sure you didn’t mean your comment to sound this way. Maybe like me you were just firing off some comments at 3am drunk with lack of sleep after settling someone…
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Hi Petra. They love me at dinner parties. I bring the best wine !
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Really, really, really over it!
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Don’t, then !
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I used to like reading this site. Now I see the sort of women I’m keeping company with, I think I’ll reconsider.
Thanks for your thoughts Jacinta. You are welcome to your own opinion.
Get a life ladies.
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Disagree with the pitchfork brigade and they’ll want to feed you ground glass.
Some of us are prepared to eat the ground glass !
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“Get a life ladies”
Thats abit nasty, I’d like to think we could be a little nicer around here
You just mentioned Jacinta is entitled to her own opinion, fabulous.
So are others.
Most who commented here with a different opinion have well-rounded and balanced arguements which present another aspect of Jacintas previous article.
Most of those who commented here actually understand Jacintas previous post was about her own “personal opinion” on motherhood, BUT they also see that she managed to drag other mothers into it. Commenting about how they deal with motherhood and the apparent “bad attitude” they have towards motherhood.
Fantastic, Jacinta has embraced every aspect that motherhood has bought her, but just because she chooses to do so doesn’t mean everyone lese has to and it doesn’t mean everyone else is wrong.
Im pretty sure most of us are respectful in our delivery of our comments, I’d like to think I am. So I feel it is unfair that you feel that people like I are bad company.
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So much bitchiness because you disagree with the opinion of another !
What do some of you people do for entertainment on the days that inclement weather forces the cancellation of your local, public execution/flogging ?
Knit or stick pins into voodoo dolls ?
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Its interesting, Bradley. I have noticed that some people seem to really enjoy provoking disagreement, and then they wear it like some kind of badge of honour. I have a boss who does it – he has a real siege mentality. I wonder if JT is a bit like that? There seem to be one or two others around here as well.
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That’s because it’s so easy to achieve under anonymity from the comfort of your own lounge room or work cubicle.
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I don’t see the bitchiness at all.
I see a pot-stirrer though Bradley
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Try reading some of the comments again, Holly….including the comments that you agree with.
If that ain’t bitchy….then I sure as heck don’t know what is !
You suggest that I’m stirring the pot. Possibly with a spoon called honesty !
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I don’t see any name-calling or any nasty comments in general.
As someone who followed the original post for weeks, I did see a few questionable comments, however I feel this particular post has been quite respectful in that there haven’t been any issues with name-calling etc.
Nobody is suggesting that Jacinta is wrong in her opinion, I think what you will find it that there is a general disappointment from mothers who feel they have been judged by Jacinta in her previous post by her lack of sensitivity and empathy.
For me that was it.
And now Jacinta writing another piece on judgement, I find it ironic that she feel like a victim when in fact she went on a tirade in the previous post.
I don’t see anything bitchy about expressing your disappointment with someones comments, especially when the author was guilty of passing judgement.
My stirring the pot-comment was purely humorous, I don’t know if my winky face got that point across
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I accept your “pot stirring” comment as humour.
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After reading this post.. I really don’t think I want children.
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Don’t let this put you off. Some bits of motherhood are unbelievably tough, but you won’t believe the amazing love that comes with the deal to help you through.
x E
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As mothers, why do you care what others think of you AND/OR how you parent?
You have the best gift in the world – a child, go and enjoy parenting said child how YOU see fit and tell eveyone else to sod off and mind their own business.
Everyone raises children differently, no two Mums parent the same and you know that? That’s fine. Imagine if we were all raised the same, what a world of little clones we would be – how boring!
Should I ever be lucky enough to become a parent [I still have hope despite my history], then I shall enjoy every moment of being a parent and be politely telling everyone who judges anything I may or may NOT do to go and jump.
As humans, we are hard on each other but as women we are so so tough on one another and I’m not really sure why….?
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In relation to everyone getting up Jacinta for being a ‘poor writer’ and having a narky underlying tone to her piece….
… Maybe she’s just tired from having a BABY to look after
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Fair call. But surgeons have babies too. And nurses. And teachers (like me). And many other professions with huge amounts of responsibility. Going back to work, whether it is choice or not, means you undertake the responsibility of your profession while you are engaged in it. I can’t use baby sleep deprivation as an excuse for doing a sloppy job teaching kids. And trust me, the parents and my boss would tear me a new one if I did anything other than my best work.
I don’t think it’s the issue anyway…. JT finds motherhood easy, remember?
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Sarcasm doesn’t come across well in forums does it?
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In all honesty, not really!
Apologies. I didnt realise you were joking.
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That’s ok
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Again I think this had all blown up over nothing….but then my opinion doesnt count because I dont have kids
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Oh dear, of course your opinion counts! We were all where you are once _ and as you can probably see from reading this site, everyone’s experience of parenthood is quite different so it doesn’t mean that by having a child you become an “expert” or qualified to comment on matters you wouldn’t have been able to voice an opinion on earlier. It is what you say (and I think as JT has proven, how you say it!) that counts – not your birthing status
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Unfortunately as Ive experienced in a lot of cases the judgement is directed most harshly at those who choose not to be mothers so for that reason my opinion often doesnt count. Oh well I just figure its their insecurity about life choice
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“There wouldn’t be such a chorus of dissent if we had to show our faces. But when a set of initials will do, it gives rise to all manner of uncensored opinions.”
Dont agree with this at all. I comment respectfully but with conviction. I always ask myself before I post “would I say this to someone’s face?” I can always answer “yes, I would.”
I find the majority of commenters here remark in the same way.
Debate is cathartic when done with a certain amount of diplomacy. But I resent the insinuation that I am not “brave enough” to SAY in real life something that I have WRITTEN. Sure, there is a certain amount of safety behind a computer screen. Jacinta demonstrates once again that sweeping generalisations are her particular kettle of fish as a journalist.
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I agree – and I apply the same methodology to how I write emails – if I wouldn’t say something face to face, then I don’t write it. I thought this was a particularly weak argument in the second article, and quite insulting.
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Yesterday I resisted making comment on the article itself, but I’m succumbing to temptation now……..
This site has had many articles on different aspects motherhood (and other things) that I have found very moving, inspiring, sometimes heartbreaking. The thing common to them all is that they have come very much from the heart, an author’s brave and honest account of their own experience.
For me, this particular article is just not like that. JT only uses two experiences from her own life, the first of which doesn’t sound like judgement at all (unwanted advice, perhaps, but not judgement). And the second? Well, from my memory, there was quite a lot of positive reaction to that article. The negative reaction was not about her experiences of motherhood, but about her judgy tone. To turn that around now and try and cast it as a devestating example of judgement of mothers seems a little…..disingenuous. Just doesn’t do anything for me (and I’m normally a pretty soft target).
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Yes, I’m not comfortable with attacks on an author, I do my best to comment on the subject at hand and not the person, but the lines get do get blurry when discussing opinion. The first one was a potentially great opinion piece with a positive message ruined by a backhanded undertone. Not well planned.
It was that very undertone that set off the masses, not the daring to say positive things about parenthood, which JT would still have you believe from reading this current one. Had she only done exactly that, she may well have received a great deal of agreement and not grief.
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Ah yes – I think you have hit on it! I hadn”t been able to work out why JT’s articles bothered me so much, and this fairly tame one especially. It”s the tone. Doesn’t speak genuinely to me from the heart. I am wondering if the articles are not a series of teasers in anticipation of a book next year??
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Yes, there’s just not much of herself in it (not that I know her from a bar of soap). Despite masquerading as a personal article, its all about everybody else. That’s what grates for me.
Book teasers is a possibility I hadn’t thought of. Might be a bit counter-productive, if so!
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Unfortunately it is not just as a mother that we are judged – the fact that we are also judged as women every day may have slipped Ms Tynan’s notice as the judgement rendered is undoubtedly favourable to her in her current context. The criteria by which women are judged is also not so contradictory and changeable. Ms Tynan is right – you cant ever win when being judged as a mother. However it is not just mothers who do the judging – cut us a little slack please! this is a social phenomenon – EVERYONE feels qualified to voice judgements about mothers be they 10 year olds, single men, grandparents, strangers in the street…. To this extent motherhood seems similar to policing and transport policy – on which everyone also seems to have an opinion. ON a lighter note (and offering myself up for judgement here) just thought I’d share my menu announcement last night – when asked what was for dinner it was “unidentifiable matter in a container I found in the freezer with rice and vegies”. At least it was brown rice (mummy points)!
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I remain mystified as to why Ms Tynan continues to write on this subject… If she really is as content with motherhood as she claims (and she probably is, which is fantastic) then why can’t she just let it go already?
It’s astonishing that someone who claims to be a “writer” fails to see the irony of her stance- judging those who judged her for judging them…ahh it’s already hurting my head.
Now I have to qualify my comments by saying that I am a mother to a 6 year old, and most of the time I’m a pretty chilled out mum. I’ve always loved being a mum and most days I can’t think of anything better than hanging out with my little girl and watching her grow into the beautiful person that she is.
That’s not to say there aren’t days when I think ‘good god what have I done, get me outta here’!!!!!!!
Some days are ‘easy peasy’ where others (especially after 10 hours at the office writing the 274th “urgent brief”) require every ounce of will not to pack it in and join a travelling circus.
I guess the point is, every experience of motherhood is unique and like any other relationship there will always be challenges. However, the worst thing we can do, especially as mothers (in my humble opinion) is pit ourselves againt each other. THAT I believe is where Ms Tynan may have gone wrong.
Having re-read the original article, I still feel there was an underlying tone of judgement. She didn’t just relay her own experiences, as Mia does on this blog daily, or as we all do as members of this community. She expressly positioned her own positive experiences of motherhood against those who may have felt the opposite at some point. She even went as far as to question the right of mothers (including my self) to express the complex and sometimes negative emotions related to parenthood.
I don’t consider my self a member of the ‘vocal and vitriolic minority’, nor do I wish to judge Ms Tynan’s experience of motherhood. However, what I do object to is the notion that motherhood (or any other issue for that matter) should somehow
be presented with only one view, postive or negative. That to me is just plain wrong.
So… to conclude (finally!) I hope we continue to have these lively robust debates, because in the end I’d much rather offer a difference in opinion than none at all. Ta!
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I’m nodding.
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This original article still irks me.
But what bothers me more, is her ‘startled’ response to her article. Really? A women who makes a living out of selecting and arranging words had no idea her opinion piece would cause such a stir. Sure.
Write it. Stand by it. Don’t scuttle off, mumble an apology for the misunderstanding and then retaliate a few articles later with a piece about being villified by others who don’t think like you do. Touche Jacinta.
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Agree entirely with Anonymous.
I also take issue with Jacinta’s point that everyone is qualified to give advice. Nothing makes my blood boil quicker than unsolicited advice. If I want advice, I’ll ask for it. If someone wants my advice, equally, they can ask for it.
It’s my journey…if I want help, believe me, I’ll ask.
BTW, I have 4 kids, so I do have some experience in the parenting area. My experience however, is unique to me, and does not make me an expert in anyone else’s parenting journey.
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on a different note, her son is a cutie!
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I find it kinda strange that some things are deemed “worthy” of judgment and others not.
Some people have openly said “I don’t think we should judge people in this case, but in this case, hell yeah!”
Why is it ok to judge a pregnant woman for drinking or smoking or feeding their kids chips and coke for breakfast, but not ok to judge a woman for choosing to be childless or bottle feed her baby or work while her baby is young?
Isn’t that a value judgement in itself?
You’re either judgemental, or you’re not. I don’t think it’s ok to be judgemental in circumstances that don’t fit into your world view and non-judgmental in ones that do.
Even parents who by privileged middle class whitebread standards are unfit to look after their kids need understanding, support and assistance, not judgement.
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“You’re either judgemental, or you’re not.”
I disagree with this bit Mattie. Too simplistic. People just aren’t that one-dimensional.
For example, we all judge when we choose to parent differently to another. Concsiously or unconsciously we utilise our very human ability to discriminate one thing from something else. Natural and normal.
OR you can be openly judgemental, unsupportive, bitchy and smug about it.
A spirit of curiosity, tolerance and acceptance seems to make all the difference though.
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If the opinion being expressed isnt PC then its considered wrong by the masses and open for criticism. If its PC then any disagreement with that viewpoint is judgemental. See how it works?
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Yawn
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Well said, Jacinta. I can’t believe how people have responded with so much…well…judgement.
Having children is hard, but when someone writes about the joy they feel about having their baby, who are we to make comment? It’s their experience and their opinion and I, for one, thought it was a breath of fresh air. Children and babies ARE a joy and it was so great to read an article saying that.
Some people can’t have children. Ever.
Those people would probably chop off their right arm to have the problem of dealing with a crying child.
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Nic, I could be reading too much into it, but I think alot of people would agree when I say that Jacinta started off her article with a smug tone, she then went on to say how joyful her experience was, and finished up saying that mothers who do vent their frustrations and deal with their issues through speaking to others or god forbid, having a complain to another mother, have a bad/wrong attitude towards motherhood.
When she commented on how other mothers deal with difficult aspects of motherhood, she passed judgement on them.
Sure she may not have come right out and said it, but the tone of her piece conveyed this feeling to the reader, this is where I feel she went wrong, and as a professional I assumed she would know better.
I just feel her previous article didn’t just concentrate on how joyful her experience has been, it actual put empahsis on how other mothers feel about their journey by almost belittling them for not “embracing” everything the way she had.
I hope that doesn’t come across as snarky, just giving a different perspective
x
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No it doesn’t come across as snarky – and I hope I didn’t either.
I can see your point of view too, having reread the article and trying to get the tone you’re talking about – and I kind of got it. I guess the positive parts were what spoke louder to me – maybe I was looking for them???
I think what I was trying to say is that, for people who are dying to have children but can’t, having a child crying all night might seem like a blessing.
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Some of us were those women who would have loved a child, and thought we might not ever succeed. But it is still hard when a child is up all night crying, sometimes. And it’s OK for anyone to say so. When I had fertility issues (it took 3 years to conceive my son), I felt like I had to suppress any feelings of difficulty I was having, because hey, I was lucky, I should be grateful, right?
It took me a while to accept that I truly was incredibly grateful and that admitting that something was difficult at any given time, didn’t make me less deserving of him.
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Wonderful.
Your post was far from it Nic, you’re doing what Im doing, offering a different opinion.
Its just great when people can do it respectfully hehe.
I know a few women who are having fertility problems, problems with carrying babies to term and my heart breaks for them.
You’re right when you say that they would long to hear the cry of a baby at 2am.
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I agree Holly. I combed that article for positive examples and came up short. That’s because it wasn’t an article about that at all. It was the original judgement article, damning women who didn’t see motherhood as Jacinta did, minus the gorgeous details of motherhood.
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Not this again?? I’m surprised JT has put herself out there again considering the flack she got the last couple of times.
I think Jacinta was actually sounding pretty judgemental in her first article – she had a point to what she was saying and while I’m sure she didn’t intend it, she did come across as judgemental towards other Mums who didn’t have the same experiences, or react to them, the way she did.
So, the same way Jacinta likes to celebrate the positives of motherhood and how great it is, why can’t she also focus on the positives of the sisterhood and how the majority of us Mums ARE there for each other and support each other.
Although I’ve seen a bit of judgement go to and fro over the years between mothers (and plenty of those that aren’t mothers too!) In my experience, almost all of the Mums I know AREN’T judgemental and they support me and accept me for who I am, as I do them – I’m pretty sure that’s how the stats would come out for most of us right?
I find it a little ironic that Jacinta is asking us to tune into this awful ‘movement of judgemental mothers’ when there’s just as much (I think more) love and support and incredible sisterhood out there that we should be celebrating.
Just saying.
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jacinta .. once again you have managed to put yourself up on a pedestal and have a go at anyone who disagreed with your last comments about how motherhood was so easy…you have such an amazing skill at twisting other peoples’ words and experiences so as to support your own views…you say we shouldn’t judge yet your first article reeked of judgement about women who find motherhood hard…they should apparently not off load but just suck it up…you now say we should be there for the hard times but truly if someone was having a hard time with their bub, truly would you be the first person they would think to call..i think NOT.. oh and sorry i am writing this on the computer..BAD mummy…!!!!
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i don’t think any of the commenters here judged her about her parenting abilities the last time, we judged her for judging other mothers… basically we told her she had no right to call other mothers wimps just because she had it easy. So where does this post about being judged come from? she was the judgemental one…
i personally think she has an impairement relating to reasoning and argumenting…
sorry for responding on a computer screen to what was written on a computer screen, btw, i assure you that had i been in front of you, i would have said the exact same words. (it’s also possible i wouldn’t have bothered entering an argument with someone so dumb though)
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I would never judge a woman for her decision to breastfeed/bottle feed for any length of time, however I do think it’s time for Jacinta to stop milking this issue.
We all know controversy sells. Why pretend that you are surprised when you make inflammatory comments about motherhood in magazines and web sites aimed at women? (3 times)
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oh you know what? i hadn’t even considered this possibility…how naive am i?
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ha ha! milking the issue! get it?
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Well said Kylie!
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I think its all perception. We think we are being judged because we are judging ourselves. When you start feeling defensive, basically, I think we need to take a chill pill.
People generally offer parenting advice because they know it is hard. They are generally trying to help out. Relax, listen and if you don’t like the advice, don’t follow it. Simple.
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My thoughts exactly Belle.
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Perfectly said!
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I agree, sometimes a little personal responsibility needs to be taken for our reaction to advice and comments.
If someone touches a nerve, is it our insecurity which is meeting them halfway?
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I also think letting the judgements be like water off a duck’s back is incredibly hard when you’re a new mum, it can take years to realise that we have the option of just letting those remarks slide.
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Absolutely. If I could learn one talent, it would be the ability to smile blithely while someone (read – usually my mother) tells me why what I am doing is wrong and what they are advising is right. Why do I let it/her get to me??? Argh!!!
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When I was a new mum, judgements used to really get under my skin and hurt me. I’ve since learnt that it’s more about the person’s lack of manners. I don’t care if others disagree with my ways, I expect that, after all, we’re all different. But to be rude and try to force those judgements down another person’s throat? I’ve learnt that those ppl are just generally rude and I have no respect for them anyway
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Unfortunately, Mothers will judge and be judged, but what gets me are the people who have never had children who seem to be the best “parents” out there. I am a mother of 2 young girls who had the perfect eating habits until they got to the age of about 16- 18 months. I was having a discussion recently about my children’s eating habits with a friend (who is expecting her 1st child and has been a Nanny for many years) and she came across to me as if I wasn’t doing enough to feed my children the right foods. It irked me liked you wouldn’t believe. I am sure she didn’t mean to offend but I just felt like I was being attacked. “If they can eat Mcdonald’s and cookies, etc. surely they will eat other foods.” I give my children Mcdonalds once a fortnight and I do give my kids treats but because I don’t “force feed” my children the fruits and vegetables that they don’t like, I am some how the bad guy. She went on to say that she used to have to sit at the table until it was all gone or go to bed without. I have to admit it was something we did try – the whole making them sit at the table until they eat it routine – but it was such a cause of anxiety for all involved that we gave that up. We all plan on being “perfect” parents, but guess what ppl? There is NO such thing.
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how about no Macdonalds until they eat the right thing…just a thought!
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j is for what again?
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If I was being the “J” word I would qestion why you would feed your children macdonalds in the first place??? We all know how bad it is in terms of nutritional value so why introduce it at such a young age…especially when obesity is on the rise. I was merely offering advice yos & clarinette your sarcasm doesn’t offend! Clearly you feed your children macdonalds also.
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lol i certainly do
oh the horror, oh good god what has the world come to??
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shows how much you know, I don’t have children Anonymous. You are wearing that J word well. Keep it up.
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just reread my post & in no way did I implie that you had children yos…the advice was for cancan! A little close to home methinks!!!
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Wow, you replied to my post, and used my name, but it wasn’t directed at me? Suit yourself.
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anonymous is the queen of mothers, all bow to anonymous…
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Mia, I don’t want to read anything else by Jacinta Tynan I find her writing style infuriating.
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Agreed! – Saw this comment in the sidebar and had to agree.
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Me too. Her last piece STILL makes my blood boil so I’m not going to comment on the content of this piece; most of what I wanted to say has already been said anyway.
“Infuriating” is exactly the right word.
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Pretend that any future articles by Jacinta are sponsored posts and that you don’t approve of the advertised product. Avoid the article.
Well that’s what the pitchfork brigade was saying last week ! If you don’t want to read the article, don’t read it.
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BRILLIANT point!! Love your comment below as well!
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How about YOU stick to parenting your kids and let other people parent theirs? Just a thought!
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Do any of us ever have perfect eating habits?? I wouldn’t worry about it, even if your kids eat well they might not be good sleepers etc
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We should never be fooled by people who live their lives to look good for appearance sake. The kids with ‘the perfect diet’ and the gold star mum, ie. exclusively breastfed until 12months and only eat organic food and have never had junk food dont necessarily have a happier life or better parents. The food is only a snapshot of their lives, we should never be so quick to form opinions. I know a family who wouldnt have what would be regarded as the best diet but they are the most loving caring family and I would choose to be adopted by them in a heartbeat. I also know another family, where the kids only eat the healthiest best food and wear the best designer gear, the parents are cold and self indulgent, their kids seem to have a pretty lonely crappy life.
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Today, I think that I’m feeling a bit sorry for the children of the pitchfork brigade.
How are they going to turn out ?
As hate filled and prejudgemental as their mothers, no doubt !
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No doubt about it ! Effigies of Jacinta Tynan will be set alight this weekend in Centennial Park and other outdoor venues suitable for large gatherings.
Matches and metho will be in short supply following the event !
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And so Jacinta gets judged for judging people about judging. Nobody can win this one.
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Actually, I don’t think that’s it. A lot of people are agreeing with her. A few people are – fairly mildly – calling the inconsistency. Given that she’s a journalist and putting her stuff out there, I think that’s fair enough.
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As mums, whatever we do will be wrong according to someone somewhere. So I say do what you feel is right and to hell with anyone else!
(and yes I am talking to you lady who told my two year old off at the shop for being too loud!)
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Ah, Jacinta is such a woman of contradictions, isn’t she? She found being a working mother hard, but motherhood is easy, a joy.
She claims mothers should stop complaining about motherhood, but then goes on to say it’s wrong to judge mums.
I think her grip on reality is somewhat off also. Like other commentators have mentioned, it wasn’t that a resounding majority were saying, ‘at last!’.
The ‘vocal minority’ were not vitriolic just for the sake of it. Their message was one of support for those women who do find it tough.
If the ‘resounding’ majority was so pleased with her last offering, why then, was there so much damage control afterward? Why did so many bloggers feel compelled to write about how much it offended them? Why did Mia interview her to try to help her to set the record straight?
Why was she interviewed about the negative response on tv?
I agree, it’s not great to be constantly judging mothers, or to constantly be on the receiving end of judgement. But we all do it, like it or not.
If judgements of others are petty and not accepting of the fact that so many have different parenting styles, then I see that as a negative thing. I don’t see judgement over the bigger issues, such as child safety and well being to be such a bad thing, though.
I also have heard that sometimes when women have a c section, it CAN be more difficult to establish breastfeeding. This isn’t hard and fast for everyone.
I don’t think that woman was judging her at all, simply trying to warn her that she might be in for a tough road ahead. And if this was unfounded, then what’s the harm?
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I also had two more points I forgot to add. One, is that this judging of mothers is not a new phenomenon to this generation, it’s always been the case, rightly or wrongly. Just because Jacinta is going through it now, doesn’t make it new.
My other point is, yes, mothers judge each other. It’s one of those things that can make motherhood hard until you learn to shrug it off. Which kind of contradicts her article, ‘motherhood is easy’.
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I just tried to thumbs up your piece but it wouldn’t let me…..cause I’d already done it!
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LOL!
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Jacinta’s first article was not simply ‘looking on the bright side’. I can’t believe she is still happy to call it just that, especially given some of the eloquent and excellent, well-rounded comments that were given on this very website. It was insensitive and annoying, but enough of that.
In this article, she has hit one nail very much on the head with this paragraph: “We wouldn’t be at each other’s throats if we thought we were good at it. But we are a generation where mothering has morphed from instinct to another potential achievement – or failure – fuelling our insecurities and defensiveness as we protect our patch. It is Other Mothers – who might be doing it “better” – who have become our nemeses.”
Now, that does seem to ring true, and that is a shame.
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‘We should make a pact to stop right here. To accept we’re all doing the best we can and be there for each other when it’s challenging. And when it’s not.’
Gee, if only Jacinta had just worked that one out before she wrote the first article! (Judge not, lest ye be judged anyone?)
And while there are some very valid points in this one, I can’t help but note that the blind spot to having judged others in the first article endures here.
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*applauds loudly*
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*stands next to holly applauding loudly*
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Who is Jacinta Tynan?
I remember now
I personally feel that Jacinta’s previous article on finding motherhood “breezy” and “easy” stank of insensitivity and yes, I do believe at times she passed judgement on other mothers with her very strong and opinionated views.
I do understand that this was purely an opinion piece, however I feel there were parts that were completely unnecessary and actual contributed to the negative reactions from some readers.
I feel she insinuated that “those” mothers who “one-up” each other at mothers group have the wrong attitude towards motherhood. This pissed me off.
I believe Jacinta should have been more sensitive about how she approached the topic, because afterall everyone has a different journey through motherhood and quite obviously not everyone feels the same way. Her very strong use of words alienated others who do find these things difficult. She didn’t appear to show much empathy towards those who haven’t been as lucky.
I believe Jacinta may have had good intentions HOWEVER her attitude in the previous article suggested to me that it is wrong to feel otherwise.
I think this, along with the insensitivity displayed in her article was what caused such a reaction.
If Jacinta had just left it at “Im enjoying motherhood, its great, I feel blessed” and not gone off on a tangent mayyyybe there would have been a more positive reaction?
I’d say 50% of mothers who read that article found parts of it judgemental, and as someone who continued to read this ppost weeks after, I feel that is a pretty accurate number.
Anyway, I find this piece from Jacinta ironic.
I feel that yes, she did judge other mothers in her previous article, however she wasn’t open-minded enough to see how.
As a journalist I think she should have that ability.
Ultimately her use of language and insensitivity rubbed me the wrong way and Im a mother-of-two who has been very lucky not to have encountered too many difficult times through motherhood so far. This alone is enough to make me sympathize with those who don’t have it “easy” not make the mothers who do find it hard at times feel like they have a bad attitude towards motherhood.
People in general will continue to judge. Its pretty normal to do so, just some others are vocal about it and are often ignorant towards the feelings and situations of others.
I just find that it funny how Jacinta is now on the flip side, feeling as though she is and has been judged and only now it is an issue.
I don’t expect too many of those who Jacinta “inadvertently insulted” will be too sympathetic towards her feelings now (now Im just being cheeky haha)
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I would like to gently say that I feel I’m judged by a small minority of women for being in married, in my early 30′s and not wishing to have children.
At a family wedding recently, for example, I was bailed up by my cousin who has two (gorgeous) children, wanting to know when I planned to have a baby. After punting the question with good humour several times, I politely told her, when she kept pressing the point, that neither my husband nor I were interested in having a baby. This did not go down well, as I was told I was selfish for not wanting children and that I wouldn’t know the meaning of life until we had children.
Obviously it is not everyone or even many people who make such pronouncements and judgments, but those who do it eg cousins, former class mates at old school girls reunion, make me very uncomfortable.
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I can never understand the accusation of being selfish by not wanting children. How is that selfish?? It is so illogical,especially as some people have children for quite self centred reasons. I thought i did not want children for a very long time (throughout my 30s) and did get told that it was selfish by a few people and just thought it was bizarre. Now i do have children and love being a mum but can totally understand not wanting to have any.
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Exactly.
Surely, THE most bizarre and selfish thing to do would be to go ahead and have children all the while knowing you don’t want them!
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I know exactly how you feel about being in your 30′s and not wanting children. I’m even more of a disappointment in that I don’t want to get married, either. Seriously, if my family thought they could get away with declaring me a souless witch and burning me at the stake or such other medi-evil practices they would!
I also find it quite offensive that I will never know the ‘meaning of life’ unless I squeeze some brat out of my vagina. Given that the ‘meaning of life’ continues to appear so bloody elusive its either a) bollocks, or b) the wrong people are reproducing!
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This is the reason why I don’t want to go to my 20 year high school reunion next year because I have committed the heinous crime of being 37 (next year) and not being in a relationship, married or have had children. Society is very marriage and children centric.
I just don’t want to be made to feel I have ‘missed’ out on something or somehow I have been left on the shelf or a failure because that’s what you are pretty much made to feel like.
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I’m in the same boat as you 5 years behind. This will not be the reason that I don’t go to my reunion. If I were to go I would be proud to say that I am single and childless and happy in my life and with my decisions.
I don’t feel that I’ve missed out and I wouldn’t allow anyone to make me feel inferior to them just because they have a family or whatever else they have.
Live by your choices, only then will the “stigma” disappear. You are perpetuating the myth that it is bad to be single and childless by shying away from it. Embrace it!
As I said, there are other reasons not to go to high school reunions, but the one I hate the most is that you will not measure up to someone’s yardstick of success.
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Thanks Yos
. I’m getting there. Today I’m having a good day where I feel confident in my life. I have money in the bank…very little debt, I live by myself – even though I rent and I have a relatively good job and I’m healthy and good friends. I have alot of blessings in my life. So (haha) I should stop whingeing.
But my last high school reunion (10 year) was a competition of who had the fanciest job title…you wouldn’t believe what people put down on their ‘what have you done’ in the last 10 years. It was all about their job etc and now when you go onto my old high school blog it’s now about their houses and where they live. The problem being is that my school was expensive, exclusive and had alot of North Shore types there. So…my point is…I KNOW I will be made a to feel a certain way. A bit like when a gambling addict should stay away from the casino. I just know it will stir up all these emotions in me.
But…you know you can’t control when or whom you are going to meet or marry or when you have kids. I just wish these judgemental people would understand that life isn’t some linear line where we ‘hit’ milestones at exactly the same time.
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I know how you must feel Elizabeth and thanks for being so open. Your line about people understanding that we don’t all hit our milestones at the same time is spot on.
The thing is I think everyone goes to reunions trying to impress. A lot of it is a facade and you don’t even know these people anymore. Just remember your life is for you to make and for you to judge, no one else’s.
You wouldn’t be the only one in your class who feels this way I can guarantee it. Take care of yourself. xo
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Exactly. You really don’t know these people…and your right alot of it is really a facade. I mean you only turn up to these events to brag about stuff. Yawn. Hahaha…that’s what Facebook’s for
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I went to my ten year reunion (for a girls school that prides itself on ‘growing well rounded high achievers’)feeling really proud of myself for my awesome career, my lovely husband and my life that, while not the coolest or most exciting in the world, is mine and is everything I ever wanted.
While most of the girls were amazing and genuinely interested in what we had all gone on to do, there was a little group that were very judgmental and snippy about those who were not mothers. At 28 none the less. Can’t imagine what the 20 year reunion will be like
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I didn’t go to my 20 year school reunion this year because I felt like a failure since I’ve been a stay-at-home-mum since 1999.
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No, no, no. No one here is a failure, not me for not having children and not you for being a stay at home mum. Everyone just has their own story and life that is works for them. BGxx
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I’ve been invited to several high school reunions over the years and I refuse to go.
Most of those mongrels gave me such a hard time back then, so I don’t really wish to have anything to do with them now. Sure, I could laud my successes since leaving school over most of them. But it would achieve nothing and I wouldn’t get any form of satisfaction by doing so.
The past is the past, and I’m in control of my future with or without the blessings of those from my past.
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I agree Bradley. All of the people who meant anything to me in high school are the ones I still keep in touch with, so why would I care to see people I wasn’t even friends with?
I have nothing to prove to anyone, especially not people who didn’t even notice my existence 15 years ago.
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Pay no attention to them, they are the sort of people who think having a baby is everyones right, whether they are capable of being a good parent or interested in being a good parent or not.
I personally believe it is the most unselfish decision to make. I’m sure we all know people who just had to have a baby, and then they have the baby and you see the life the child is living you just think ‘why?’
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Jacinta was right last time, and she is right this time as well!!!
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Mums judging other mums came as a complete shock to me. I have 2 sisters that have 2 kids each. They never judge each other. They talk a lot and share information. They agree and disagree. It’s not a big deal. I watched them through my pregnancy and it never occurred to me that this was not normal. When I had my son, my first introduction to “mummy judgement” came from people outside my immediate family judging me for having “too short” and “too easy” a labour!!! Can you believe it?!?! Thankfully there were no complications for my son or I – but to say that 7 hours without drugs is apparently ” SO easy” was a complete shock to me! I thought that others would be happy that nothing serious had happened. Then it all started, he was “too small”, “slept too much”, “slept too little”, etc etc etc..the list goes on. I bottle-fed right from the start since I was also caring for a terminally ill mother and my husband worked long hours and travelled a lot at the time. Knowing my limits, I was very comfortable with my decision. But “other mums” didn’t like it. I got many, many disapproving looks and comments. All the while, my sisters could only say how beautiful he was and what a great job I was doing. Be very careful about who you listen to! There are definitely mums out there who make themselves feel better by putting you/your baby/your kids down.
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Bet you’ve never loved your sisters more. After all that!
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Absolutely. They are my special best friends. Thanks, Tastebud
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I’m quietly envious
and hope my kids grow to be as close when it matters.
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