Monty Dimond
BY MONTY DIMOND
A little while ago I did something that came up in conversation with friends over dinner. It sparked a mixture of passionate opinions, raised eyebrows, thumbs up of support, and endless inappropriate jokes. It’s fair to say my friendship group is divided on whether what I did was acceptable or completely wrong town. So here’s how the story rolls.
I was babysitting one of my best friends’ little two-year-old girl, Molly*. She was sleeping at my place for the night, so after our 63rd episode of Dora The Explorer, I decided to run her a bubble bath. She happily splashed away in the tub while I gave her a scrub and shampooed her little locks. After she was squeaky clean I jumped in the bath too and had a shower.
When my boyfriend got home later that night I told him the events of my day. The debrief included that my little mate and I had showered together. He turned to me and said, “Isn’t that a bit…um…weird?” I hadn’t given it a second thought, but his scrunched up face me panic that I’d done something wrong.
I have known Molly for her entire 24-month existence. I held her when she was 5 hours old, have changed her nappy a hundred times, and kissed her knees when she’s fallen over. I absolutely love her to bits. Why would it be weird for me to shower with her?
The second my friend arrived to collect her daughter I blurted out, “So I showered with Molly…hope that was ok!” Naturally my friend didn’t bat an eyelid. With a smug look on my face I turned to my boyfriend and dropped the old “I told you so”.
Fast forward to last night’s dinner party. This one small attempt to save water and time, created so many fictional scenarios and questions. If Molly were five would it still be acceptable? Should I have checked with her parents first? If Molly was a little boy would that change things?
It was amazing how most women around the table found showering with a friend’s child completely normal, and even quite a lovely thing to do. The men on the other hand, deemed it a total no go zone. They all said they would never bathe with a kid who wasn’t their own offspring.
To be completely honest, it does feel different for some reason. I wouldn’t mind a teeny bit if one of my close girlfriends showered with my baby son, but if one of my male friends did, maybe I would? Even knowing that it would be nothing but a simple and extremely innocent shower. It’s sad really, but just because they are men, it makes the situation a little uneasy.
I started to ponder why this is. Have horrific news stories of paedophilia wrongly damaged our opinion of all men? Do we still see the bathing of children as mainly women’s work and thus not really the place of a man? Or is it simply because men have ‘outie bits’?!
Wherever this prejudice comes from, it just doesn’t seem fair. Why should the role of men be limited in our children’s lives? It also reminds me how grateful I am to be a woman. Without fear of judgement, I can experience all the joys of raising children. Even ones who aren’t my own.
Most people agree with the African proverb “it takes a village to raise a child”. However it seems unless that village is full of women, our kids are going to get pretty grubby.
* Molly is not the child’s real name. I was going to go with the Jemima but that was too ‘Play School’, then I flirted with Winona but she is a shoplifter. So Molly won.
Katie “Monty” Dimond is a broadcaster and media personality. She has appeared on Channel Ten, Channel Nine, and Nova FM. She is currently busy being a full time Mum and loving it! You can (and should) follow her on Twitter here
Comments
170 Comments so far
As a bloke I do fear what reaction one might get from showering with someone else’s daughter. But not there boys, no hassles there. When our 9yo daughter has friends stay over I don’t go near the bathroom when it’s shower time, but with my nephews and mates young boys I am totally comfortable showering or changing with them, showing them how not to pee on their shoes, how to write their name on a brick wall or whatever. Boys need men to set good examples, boundaries and roles as men.
I feel it is a real shame that as a society we are so concerned, and perhaps rightly, about the risk of abuse. I would hope that our friends and family would know their children are absolutely safe with us, with me.
loading...
I think it is perfectly normal. If it was a kid you just met and was looking after for the first time, that may be weird but a child you are very close to is fine.
Growing up I spent a lot of time with my grandparents and have seen my grandma naked. I still see my mum in the shower or getting dressed and vice versa. Im 23 and the only time I’m embarrassed is if she notices my brazillian wax!
I remember a camping trip when I was in primary school with family friends, one of mum’s best friends asked mum if it was ok that she showered with us. It was communal showers with no privacy in the camping grounds. The friend was heavily pregnant at the time and was worried and very nervous about me seeing her naked. Mum was like don’t be silly, it’s all normal.
I am glad my upbringing was so open. Years later I was comfortable to talk to the same friend of my mother’s when I got my period when I was shopping with her one day when mum was at work. I agree with others, it takes a village to raise a child.
I was very embarrassed recently when baby sitting my god son and I had to change his nappy for the first time. He had recently had the snip, I never knew you had to put cream on it. I was so weirded out by the the whole thing I quickly changed his nappy. His mother got home and laughed at me saying it was totally normal. I love that little guy so much and hope he will feel comfortable to always know his god parents are here for him.
loading...
I’ve supervised lots of little kids washing over the years, but haven’t gotten in with them. I just don’t think it’s appropriate for either gender. We (hubby and I) washed with our kids when they were little, but they’re at an age now where the bathroom door gets firmly shut on us.
None of the men I know have had any issues with the kids and public toilets. They either used the parents room, handicapped toilet or we would take the same gendered child into the loo with us. Now, we just wait outside the toilet for the kids.
I do get the self consciousness of some men, but we women need to back them up and encourage them to take back the part they should play in a kids life.
loading...
Shower with my own kids? fine. With a friends kids? NEVER!
And if one doesn’t know the difference, then there’s no point in trying to explain..an adult should automatically KNOW the difference.
loading...
Our children are growing up with parents who are afraid to touch them, afraid to see them naked because they are uncomfortable with the idea of being seen as creepy, or afraid they are somehow hurting their children. But kids need to feel comfortable in their own skin!
Padeophiles have very clever and complex ways of hiding their behaviour that do NOT involve openly and honestly disclosing their activities. I have bathed with my friend’s son and although it confronted me a little, it was an experience that made me realise how absolutely uptight and prudish I’d become about this kind of thing!
I will let my super-close friends bathe with my children, but only if I’ve known them for ages, trust my instincts and feel that the interaction is healthy. Because they need to feel like their bodies are OK, and that they are innocent, healthy children with or without clothes!
Also, many men are abused and never disclose it to anyone. I’m 29 years old and in my life many men have secretly confided in me that they have been raped or abused and haven’t disclosed this to ANYONE else – not their partner or their parents. This is because while it is beginning to be OK in our culture to admit to suffering abuse as a woman, for a man the fear of emasculation and discomfort with sharing shameful feelings stops men from disclosing.
Many people who aren’t afraid of their female friends’ interactions with their kids but are wary of their male counterparts, are doing themselves a disservice, by focusing on gender and not behaviour!!
loading...
It’s not ok !!!!
loading...
wrong wrong wrong. I would be incensed if a friend did this. it’s creepy and unecessary. I’s one thing to be close and loving with your kids but to shower with them is wrong. Especially with men. Unacceptable.
loading...
http://www.aifs.gov.au/acssa/statistics.html
That for people wanting stats in Australia about sexual abuse – 18 % of Australian women are sexually abused and 99% is by men.
That is why I would never appreciate my daughter hoping in a bath alone with a man.
I am not saying all men are perverted or that dad can’t shower with kids etc or play football or teach
By if Grandpa or a male friend had a bath with my daughter I would be less then impressed.
It is just not appropriate.
loading...
Well said.
Please read the comments in context. I have read through all of the comments. The majority of commenters are not saying that mum and dad cannot shower with their toddlers. Neither are the majority of commenters saying that men should not play an active part in children’s lives as doctors, hairdressers, teachers or sports coaches to name a few professions.
Let’s not forget that this story is about Monty going the FULL MONTY in the shower with her friend’s child. Most commenters are simply focusing on the main point of Monty’s story and saying that they would not want a friend either male or female showering with their child.
In a previous story Monty discussed the questions that people should not ask a new parent. Here’s one question that I suggest you definitely ask your friends when babysitting their child never just presume it is okay: “Can I shower with your child?”. I’m guessing from reading all of the comments that most parents (mum AND dad) would answer:“No”.
loading...
You pretty much ARE saying that all men are perverted.
I can see the stats about 18% of women being sexually abused. The problem with this number is that it flies in the face of numbers of reported sexual abuses. last year there were 79.5 reported cases of sexual abuse per 100,000 population, which is about 17,500. This was all sexual abuse cases involving males and females and includes children. The numbers don’t add up, if 18% have been abused then the majority of them aren’t reporting it. That’s just dumb.
The other thing is that the question that leads to the 18% was not published. Do you mean 18% were raped? Or was it 18% had a boob grabbed inappropriately or they were pinched on the bum?
A flat 18% is absolute rubbish without knowing the background to the study. You’re just taking the big number to demonstrate that men are bastards. I take exception to that, as I’m not a rock spider, and I abhore sexual assault. Furthermore, we all know that men are responsible for 99% of sexual assaults, you don’t have to be a rocket surgeon for that one, but you make no mention of the fact that a rock spider will offend as many times as possible, so the chances of actually having your child come into contact with a rock spider is less than the chances of your child being killed in a car accident when you are driving.
How about we stop the selective quoting of banner headlines that aren’t applicable, and concentrate of the real problem, which is IDENTIFYING the rock spiders and cutting their balls off.
loading...
I love that my husband showers with our daughters and they love it too. The only trouble is they are starting to get to a rather awkward height…..
loading...
Yes! We stopped showering with our boys when they started poking and pulling
loading...
I didn’t realise nudity within the close family meaning mum, dad and kids is such a big issue for some. My 6 y.o daughter and my 2 y.o son bathe every night together. Sometimes I hop in too or sometimes their dad has a bath and they always want to hop in. Hubby does wonder what the cut off age should be with our daughter though. I think she will lead the way in that she is already wanting privacy when going to the toilet so I think it will naturally progress to wanting to shower by herself.
I wouldn’t want someone else bathing with my kids. Their gran sees them nude all the time but she lives with us so there isn’t any hiding nude bodies (except us grown up bodies from her). When we are with other family all the young cousins all have a bath together and their uncles and aunties see my kids naked but I am there.
They are taught the correct names for their private parts and are taught that those areas are private for them and no one else. Only mum, dad and gran are the people who are allowed to help them clean themselves or look if something is wrong down there.
But the body is natural and there is no shame in it or feeling that you have to hide it from each other- meaning us. I don’t give it a second thought if my close friends see my kids nude or if I see their kids nude. It’s usually in the context of them hoping out of the bath or changing out of wet swimmers something like that.
I guess it varies on who you trust for each situation. I wouldn’t put my kids in the situation where one of my friends boyfriend would see my kids naked because I don’t trust him. But there are other friends (male) whom I wouldn’t worry too much if they saw the kids naked but whether male or female I would be there.
loading...
Gosh! you totally missed the whole point! it’s not about showering with your own kids..it’s about showering with friend’s kids.
loading...
Hmmm, interesting post. Nudity in our house is a non issue. The kids have and do shower with me and/ or my husband. Or not. Just depends what’s happening that day.
I wouldn’t shower with other people’s kids because you don’t know what that family’s expectations are.
I do sort of resent the expectation that there must be something untoward going on if kids and adults see each other naked. When I was at school I did a student exchange to Norway where communal showering (still gender separated) is the norm before/ after anything like the gym, pe, or swimming. I wonder if this is actually safer for children because nothing is likely to happen to them in a public place, and creepiness would be a totally separate thing to “functional nudity” ???
Should add, I have nothing against privacy or boundaries. I thought I was totally easygoing about nudity until my BIL saw me naked (by accident -he was living with us at the time). That was WAY out of my comfort zone. I don’t judge if someone’s comfort level with something is different to mine.
loading...
I had a very similar situation a couple of years ago when I was babysitting my three-year-old cousin, something I used to do on a more than weekly basis. On this particular occasion when I was bathing her and helping her play with her toys she very wisely noticed how wet I was getting and how uncomfortable I was reaching into the tub and asked me to come in. At first I thought nothing of it, I know my aunt showers with her all the time, but would she appreciate me, her niece, bathing with her child. The alarm bells went off in my head and in the end I did hop in with her but put my bathers on first. My cousin thought this was incredibly funny because we weren’t at the beach. The next morning when my aunt came to pick her up I told her that we had a bath together but quickly added “don’t worry I wore bathers”. She laughed like this was the most ridiculous thing she had ever heard and said it would have been fine for me to be naked. looking back it seems incredibly silly how much I agonised over such an innocent thing but I suppose until you get the ok from the parent you never know what reaction you’ll get.
loading...
It is a sad world that we have come to distrust men to the point of questioning their motives around children.
loading...
Would you not questin why a grown man would bath with a child? In the bath, naked? Not immediate family?
loading...
Would you not question why a grown woman would bath with a child? In the bath, naked? Not immediate family?
Judging from the comments, most would not.
loading...
Some of my best childhood memories involved nakedness haha! I adore my memory of having a bath with my grandma where she would let me get the scrubber out and rub her back, such a nice, sweet bonding time as a young child. My mum & dad would also help my little brother & I wash our hair in the bath or shower until probably age 10 or 11. I have a great relationship with my mum now as a 21 year old & I think it’s partly due to the fact that she’s a big fan of being in the buff! There are never any hang ups with nudity, I used to share the bed with her sometimes when my Dad travelled for work, we’ll still have a chat while she’s in the shower and share change-rooms at the shops. I don’t think I can ever remember seeing my Dad naked. It’s sad because I’m not as close to him as I am to my Mum. I’ll definitely be encouraging my husband to have a nude-isn’t-rude attitude with our kiddies & tell him that being a tender, loving father is nothing to be ashamed of.
loading...
A few years i was watching 2 little kids in the bathtub while the rest of the family, parents and grandparents were busy in the kitchen getting dinner ready. One of the kids asked me to get in with them and I definetly would have, had it not been for the rest of the family being there. I wasnt trusting the adult males to have walked in on me, plus it was dinner time!
loading...
The sexiest thing to me is when i see dads carrying around their kids, whether it be little bubs or 10 year olds getting piggy backs. Gorgeous in my mind. So it would be completely natural to shower with your kids or close friends kids.
Its a sad, sad world we live in now.
loading...
I don’t have babies so maybe I’m not qualified to comment.
but I think if I left my bub with my best friend who is like a sister to me and her boyfriend was to shower with bub, I’d be totally ok with that because I’d trust that my friend would never let anything happen to my child. And I also feel that a predator isn’t going to wait till they have the chance to jump into a shower with a kid to abuse them. My best friend will end up being the godparent of my baby one day so I’d love for her to have a close, comfortable relationship with them.
loading...
Oh bless!!!!!! What a gorgeous story! This would be totally ok with me if anyone was babysitting my little girl – especially a girl who I knew that well. The only issue is the child’s comfort and if she was happy, I am happy. An older child (say 5) who was used to privacy might not be comfortable with it – and there’s the rub.
Reminds me of my now-husband-then-boyfriend needing to take my 3 year old nephew to the loo. In a public toilet. In a park. I think he nearly died. I have NEVER is all our years together seen him so stressed. “is this.. like… ok… am i suppose to be doing this… do I have to… like… HOLD it…?” Oh poor guy. I also told my SIL what had happened and she was totally unfazed. So much harder for boys, both big and little.
Same SIL was also totally unfazed about her 6, 4, and 2 year olds watching me pumping. I didn’t mean to do it in front of them – had left the room and found somewhere quiet, but they were totally intrigued and followed. I called out to SIL, and she said “I don’t care, if you’re ok with it I’m ok with it!”. Master 4 even offered to hold the milk bottles for me while I did my top up so they wouldn’t spill. Gorgeous.
loading...
Oh god, it took me way too long to realise what you meant by pumping….I was having visions you doing some self-loving and wondering what sort of mother encourages their child to watch…
clearly I’m nowhere near having children
loading...
Oh Freckles, I just cried with laughter reading your post. Best laugh I have had in ages! thanks.
loading...
Bahahahaha Freckles… I was thinking the same thing!!! LOL
loading...
lol @ you! cracked me up, thanks xx
loading...
Having said all that, as thought I’m totally relaxed, hubby won’t get nude in front of our 1yo girl anymore. He also now gets me to come help with any of her nappies that are particularly messy and may need a very, er, thorough clean, as he also thinks “she looked at me weird”. it’s definitely a shame.
loading...
Are you sure he’s just not trying to get out of cleaning up messy nappies? I know i would be
loading...
he just sounds like he doesnt want to clean up dirty nappies….I wouldnt buy it! tell him to suck it up!
loading...
I am hearing you Seahorse! My husband (and quite a lot of dad’s that I know actually) feel very uncomfortable having to do a thorough clean of their daughters “bits” after a dirty nappy. I guess it is a bit similar to how I feel when I am washing my little son’s bits in the bath and he looks at me like he is in heaven and giggles. It is strange even though I know it is all totally innocent
loading...
On a related issue, did you know that airlines will not sit unaccompanied minors next to males? Somewhat torn about this. On the one hand it’s a clear recognition that a given male is a signficantly higher risk of being an abuser than a given woman given the statistics on who is an abuser. But on the other, the vast majority of men aren’t and you are generalising and discrimminating against a group because of the behaviour of a small amount of its members (and if this is acceptable, would it be acceptable to treat all members of a given ethnic group as criminals just because they have a significantly greater propensity to commit crime than the average?).
On balance I come down in favour of the policy but recognise that it’s a clear instance of discrimmination (albeit with low costs to the discrimminated) and one that I doubt we would permit against any other group in society and certainly not women.
loading...
Wait, someone is complaining about *not* sitting next a child on a plane???
loading...
Where did this information come from? I have never heard it before and my stepdaughter travels as an UM regularly.
I think they try to separate UMs from all other passengers, not just men.
loading...
As with all parenting issues, it’s a totally personal thing (and something you’ll be judged on wildly no doubt) but all I can think of is, isn’t it a shame? That society is where it is in relation to the abuse of children?
loading...
Our house is a nudey house, and I was bought up in one. My boys both shower with either hubby or I and jump into bed of a morning- usually nude themselves! We have talked about penises, vaginas and breasts being private parts that should not ever be touched without permission and never by anyone but us at this stage. My eldest is six and gets severe eczema, sometimes in the perineum area (is it a perineum on boys???) and before applying cream I always ask, and tell him what I am doing. Both will have a bit of a fiddle whilst they are watching tv lately, and seemed very interested in each others penises getting hard – we’ve talked about how it is something that feels nice, but that it is also normally done in private because they are private parts. They both bath and shower with both sets of grandparents, and I figure if I trust a friend enough to allow them to care for my kids and bathe them, I wouldn’t have any issues about them being naked too… but this discussion has made me question whether I would feel as comfortable if it was a male friend or friends male partner, and I just wouldn’t. So much for my open mindedness!
loading...
You are doing absolutely nothing wrong. Moreover, I think you’re doing everything right.
loading...
I’m amazed at all the commentators saying that if you have a problem with this, it makes you a prude? WTF?
It’s OK to want privacy, it’s OK to set boundaries and to teach them to our kids.
I’d rather teach my kids that they have a right to be given space, privacy and modesty, than that it’s ‘not cool to be a prude’.
It’s funny. Everyone’s always complaining about women in skimpy clothing, and girls in skimpy clothing etc.
I don’t like it when ppl make fun of others who want/need privacy. I’m a modest person, and that will never change. So are my kids, for the most part. And there’s nothing wrong with that. They haven’t been taught to be disgusted with their bodies, they have healthy body images,and use the correct terms for their genitals.
I would rather keep my kids safe by teaching them healthy boundaries than to make them feel ashamed for being a ‘prude’ which actually seems to be a rather cruel way to think.
I would not be happy with a male or female person who wasn’t my kids’ parents to be naked in front of my kids. No matter what age. It’s inappropriate, unnecessary and it blurs the boundaries I’m trying to teach my kids.
My youngest child is 3, and my eldest is 11, and they’re at an age where my man and I don’t bathe with them anymore. There’s just no need. And for the record, when I was a little kid, I WANTED privacy, and if I ever saw a grown man’s penis when they were peeing in public, it made me feel very uncomfortable, because I felt that they weren’t showing any respect for those of us around them who didn’t want to see it
loading...
I should clarify something above: we do supervise our younger two kids when they bathe, but don’t get naked and get in WITH them.
loading...
Yes I wouldn’t be happy with it either. I wouldn’t automatically assume anything ontoward was intended but I don’t want my children to see any other adults naked except for my husband and I (insofar as I can control that of course!) And we are a nudey house actually. Husband sleeps naked (all year round!) and i’m always running around naked in the mornings between the bathroom and the rest of the house trying to shower and get dressed whilst ensuring the 2 yr old doesn’t electrocute himself with the toaster and a spoon. But my husband won’t shower naked with our kids, he wears undies. I told him it wasn’t necessary but he said he wasn’t comfortable with it and I realised I don’t have the right to force him to be comfortable with naked showering with our kids no more than I have the right to force our kids to be happy with it. As soon as they are uncomfortable with it then it will stop. And it will be a pain I have to say, having spent 12 years (living with my husband) being able to run around naked as I need and wish in my own house to suddenly have to be aware again of who might be in the kitchen or sitting room.
loading...
That’s it. It’s not that I think the person is going to molest them. But what if one day, my kids find them in a predicament where a predator is trying to do something innappropriate, and my child draws from the experience of, ‘well, it must be ok, because I’ve had a shower with so and so in the past’?
I think it helps kids to develop a gut feeling if the boundaries are completely clear from the word go.
Also, I remember something about my eldest daughter. When she was very small, my partner and I were pretty relaxed about these things (just us two, still held the same view about other ppl being naked). Anyway, my partner was sometimes just wearing his jocks in the hot weather. My daughter, who was four at the time, starting staying in her room a lot.
We asked her why, and she said because she didn’t want to look at her dad in his undies! LOL. So, he started wearing pants from then on, and felt terribly guilty.
I think sometimes we expect too much of our kids, and expect them to be ‘ok’ with things when it’s really about us and not them at all.
I’ve never heard this concept before that just because you like your privacy it makes you some sort of prude. I don’t want nor need others looking at my body. It’s my temple and I want my body to be respected. I teach my kids the same
loading...
I’m a bloke, and there’s no way I would ever consider showering with any kid who wasn’t my own. All the tea in china wouldn’t make me do it.
We simply can’t do it. All it takes is an innocent comment from the child to the wrong person and there’s he’ll to pay. Even if you’re innocent of wrongdoing, you’d be labelled as a rock spider and would then have to go through all the bullshit of defending yourself in court. I’m very careful with kids that aren’t my own not to touch the kids in any way for fear of being accused of something inappropriate.
There are direct comparisons that make it hard to be a bloke with little kids. Try taking your 2 yo daughter to a shopping centre and she has to go to the toilet. That’s always a cute little problem! I’d have to ask a woman to look over my daughter, because I couldn’t.
We have created a society that doesn’t trust men with children, we’ve made it extremely difficult for men to properly look after children because of the actions of a few. I’m really pissed off because of this. I’m not a pedophile, I’m a normal dad who has just wanted to look after my daughter and her friends as best I could, and I resent greatly the atmosphere that is now present.
loading...
Hey Shane,
That is actually a really interesting comment. I completely agree with everything you’ve said.
It dawns on me that there have been so many articles on this site about sexually violent/graphic clothes or ads, about sexual assault, about sexually violent language being normalised and so on, and the effect this has on societies views of both genders and on heterosexual sexuality eg that it normalises sexual violence and fosters a culture where sexual assault/abuse seems to occur with increased frequency.
We’ve heard repeatedly from female MM commentators about this effects them (hint: it sucks). It’d be so interesting to read an article from the perspective you’ve touched on in your comment. For example, how does it feel to be a man in this culture, where women are increasingly constructed as sluts or (potential) victims, and men are increasingly viewed a (potential) rapists.
Would you consider writing one for MM if they were open to it?
loading...
Thanks Alice, ’twas nice of you to respond as you did.
I’d happily write for MM, but I doubt MM would let a middle aged, conservative Liberal voting bloke like me wave their banner!
loading...
Try them, Shane, you might be surprised! I reckon they definitely WOULD as long as it was a well written, interesting article.
loading...
Funny you should say that. It’s very different when it comes to public situations. One day at the beach my husband went to take my toilet-training daughter to the toilet in the bush behind the beach (there were no public toilets). Typical toddler had a big tantrum. My husband quickly realised that it wasn’t a good look for a grown man to be caught wrestling a naked, screaming toddler in the bushes, so he swiftly returned to the beach and I had to take her. It’s all about perception… and it’s quite sad really.
loading...
Shane I agree, it is very sad. We have a son and a daughter (7 and 5), and have always been open about various things (showering for speed together etc), whilst always stressing that their private parts belong to them and noone is allowed to touch them unless they say so etc, so it never really dawned on us that my husband should be careful how he behaves.
Until something happened. My daughter has extremely sensitive skin, and often gets excema type rashes, and very sensitive around her vagina. Normally not an issue, I take her to the dr and get some more cream and we carry on. Until one day, she had scratched so badly that she had given herself an infection. I had to go to work. My husband took her to the Dr. And swears blind that he would never do it again. They questioned him, and her repeatedly, trying to make sure everything was ok.
I know they were doing their job. But it made him feel like a criminal. When he was just her dad and there to look after her.
I don’t know what the answer is. I think we maybe all need to relax a bit. I know, I would still encourage my husband to be her dad and do all these same things. And it doesnt help, but you aren’t the only dad to feel this way. But there are a whole lot of us mum’s out there backing you up to be with your kids whenever, and do whatever needs to be done. And never thinking the worst.
loading...
My sister and her partner were looking after my 18 month old daughter one day. When I went to pick her up, my sister answered the door and said “She’s in the bath – with Justin”. At first I thought he would just be in the bathroom with her so I barged in and saw his naked back, sitting in the bath with my daughter. At first I was more shocked about walking in on him naked. He yelled out “It’s ok, I’ve got undies on!”. We all agreed that him being in the bath with undies on was fine, but no undies would have been weird. And that’s the end of the story.
loading...
Wow, I hadn’t realised how unusual we are. We are a pretty openly nudie family. My husband and I sleep naked except in winter, our kids (1 and 6) will hop in bed with us in the mornings before we get dressed without even thinking twice, they adore it when their Dad or I get in the bath with them (the kids bathe together every night) and we often walk around the house naked after a shower while frantically looking for clean clothes to wear.
Obviously with other people’s kids it’s different, but I wouldn’t think twice about putting a friend’s toddler in the bath if I was minding him/her. After all, you would be changing their nappy etc. Getting in the bath with someone else’s kids wouldn’t be something I’d ever really think about unless they were really close (as this example seemed to be).
Looks like Aussies are a lot more prudish about naked bodies than I had ever realised!
loading...
I would only do it if I knew my friend would be100000000% ok with it AND if there was no other option (due to timing or there not being anyone in the house to mind bub while I showered).
loading...
Took baths with my dad until I was about 5 or 6, I think. He always got out of the bath before me and I was always baffled about that thing dangling between his legs – I had no idea what it was!! He was (still is) such a gentle man – always made sure to wash behind my ears and dry between my toes hehe! I often slept in my parent’s bed and took daytime naps with my dad – I’d sleep kn his chest and try to match his breathing with mine. He’d rub my tummy when it was sore. I agree with someone’s comment that children naturally find the point where they need more privacy – as I became older, 7 or 8, these activities we shared naturally (and sadly) came to an end. My eldest nephew has reached this point too – we are no longer allowed to enter the bathroom when he is naked. I don’t think what the writer did was essentially wrong or in any way malicious but I do agree with others that it could muddle with the kid’s developing understanding of what is/isn’t appropriate. I don’t have kids but if my parents or siblings showered with my kid I wouldn’t mind but if a friend did I’d probably raise an eyebrow (though would not question their intentions). Then again, it totally depends on the relationship. The writer sounds like she is very close to the child and parents – almost an Aunty figure. So perhaps it wouldn’t bother me.
loading...
My husband will shower our two kids, we don’t have a bath. We have a boy, 4 and girl, 8. He has never tried to cover himself & neither of us have ever made a big deal out of nudity. My theory is that the more you ‘hide’ nudity or make it out to be a secretive or shameless thing the more questions it will raise from the children. I grew up in a house where both my parents were open with their nakedness. Now my daughter is 8 she still has a shower with my husband & she has never asked or said anything out of the ordinary about their differences. Apart from when she was younger & had the normal questions. The funny thing about all of this is that even though my daughter showers with us & sees us naked & knows we have seen her naked, if we walk past her bedroom when she’s getting dressed she squeals & covers herself.
She says that feels different. I don’t understand that but I do let her have her privacy. 
My brother-in-law showers with his 2 daughters who are 9 & 11. They have never seen him naked. He showers with his underwear on. My husband’s 2 nieces seem to have an odd obsession with male anatomy & I wonder if it’s because they find it all so ‘taboo’. As for other people showering my kids, I would find it somewhat strange. Unless it was a close family member. I think it would depend on the age of the child. I have showered with my husband’s niece when I was pregnant & she was only 3 or 4. I wouldn’t do it now as I think there are some boundaries as the children get older. And don’t ask me why but I would feel REALLY uncomfortable having a male friend shower with one of my kids.
loading...
I was sexually abused as a child and have to admit that I find it a little strange that your brother in law still showers with his 9 and 11 year old daughters. It may be completely innocent, but if they were my daughters etc I would feel uncomfortable about it. I’m aware that this view probably stems from my experiences though.
loading...
I was sexually abused as a child and have to admit that I find it a little strange that your brother in law still showers with his 9 and 11 year old daughters. It’s probably innocent but if they were my daughters etc I would feel uncomfortable about it.
I realise this view probably stems from my experiences though.
loading...
Hmmm I am just thinking to when i was 11 and i actually had boobies and got my period when i was 11. There is no way i would shower or even be naked around my Dad at that age! Its a bit odd your brother in law is still showering with them.. 9 and 11 is a bit old dont u think? or am i just being weird? sorry i dont want to sound judgemental, i just find that a bit odd!
loading...
I agree with you Molly but political correctness has gone too far to turn back now. I am not sure about specifically your bathing issue but the lack of male school teachers is a by-product of all of the above. Good article
loading...
From my perspective it seems a bit moot whether or not you were naked. If I were leaving my child (don’t have a biological one but thinking of my stepdaughter & nieces here) with you under the instruction you were to bathe them, surely I must trust you and be comfortable with you.
If I were worried about you being naked in front of my child, I most likely wouldn’t have my child naked in front of you.
loading...
This is a really interesting topic.
My house is a very naked one, my 3 boys are all 3yrs old or under and so far we are all (thier dad included) naked together quite often (including the bath and shower). My kids have never been naked with anyone else though, not because I am particularly against it just because it has never come up. On the odd occasion they are being looked after by their grandparents they have baths and there is no bath around that would comfortably fit 3 kids and a grandparent!
Having said that I would be fine with them showering/bathing with their grandparents, or my siblings (their aunts and uncles), even a select few friends (lifelong besties). Basically these are the only people I would trust to care for them in a situation where showering etc might be required.
I am mindful of the fact that most child abuse is perpetrated by someon known to the child, and there is a lot of grooming that takes place before hand. If someone doing something (anything from excessive hugging to showering) with your child makes you (or your child) feel uncomortable then be wary and put an end to the situation. Many commenters have said if a perpetrator is going to abuse a child they will do it in any situation not just in the case of a shower together… however in my opinion, a shower together may be ‘grooming’ time and may be something to look out for.
What a sad world…….. I am grateful to have people in my life who I trust implicity with my children, but if anyone outside this little circle was getting naked with them it would start ringing alarm bells.
Monty, your shower with Molly sounds lovely and since you are obviously part of the inner circle of trust with Molly and her family it seems completely normal to me!
loading...
Not weird at all. I think it’s lovely. And my answer to your question is yes. I think there are better ways of empowering our children to protect themselves that don’t rob them of the richness of beautiful relationships with loving men in their lives. I say this as a single mum to a young boy.
loading...
I would feel weird about any friend (male or female) bathing with my girls. It would make me wonder – why would they want to? I do everything I can to keep the kids out of my shower, and I see no reason for a mate to get starkers with my kids in order to “bond”. But that’s me. My village is small and decidedly un-naked.
However, I have no issues with them nuding up and jumping in the bath or shower with their daddy. I think that’s lovely! But both daddy and the kids spend a fair bit of time running around the house lacking clothes. They are always looking for missing shorts or running away from a bath or about to hop in the shower and deciding that they need a drink first. No biggy. I think this casual family nakedness minimises the mystery and makes everyone more comfortable talking about their bodies. And that’s safe!
I feel very sad that my husband, outside the house, feels so nervous about being branded a pedophile. He keels a photo of him and the girls together on his phone so he can prove he belongs to them, if asked, and he won’t engage with the kids when they play on the front yard with the little girls next door – he is afraid of being seen as inappropriate. And that’s just heartbreaking. He is a great daddy, ha plays fun games and he doesn’t mind wearing a tutu, and him drawing back means the girls next door are missing out on adding a strong, trustworthy male role model to their word view.
http://the-accidental-housewife.blogspot.com.au/
loading...
I was abused as a child by my dad.
If I hadn’t had other decent men as role models my views on men would be badly skewed. Thank god other normal men took the time and made the effort to engage with me.
loading...
People are definitely more cautious about men and children, sometimes unnecessarily. But I think there are pretty few times that someone would actually be branded a paedophile or challenged in any way for having normal everyday interactions with his own or other people’s children. I have just never seen or heard of this happening. The only men whose behaviour in this regard I have ever heard questioned is that of some step-fathers who seem to over-step the mark in terms of fast intimacy or inappropriate behaviour with children other than their own step-children – like, too many photos, or odd play-wrestling or something. And this has only ever been two times. In one case, it did turn out that the guy had abused his step-child, in the other case I think people were over-reacting to the guy being a bit akward about his new role and being overly keen to show that he liked kids etc, but not actually having spent a lot of time with children before.
It’s a shame men feel so worried about this. But, this is part of the adjustment to living in a world where we interact with so many strangers in public places. Part of the adjustment needs to be from men themselves to be brave enough to not over-react and become over-anxious about things like simply playing cricket with kids or talking to them in their own front yard. And also, to remember that it’s important that we should get to know the adults in our kids’ lives. Their friends’ parents and step-parents etc, parents of children in the same activity and school groups. Spend time with them. Yes, abuse comes from those our children know, but knowing people better will allow us to make better decisions about our kids’ safety, rather than having to have a blanket approach to all strangers and semi-strangers.
My daugher has a male teacher who is not scared to touch the children. If they hug him, he doesn’t push them away. His return touch is just absolutely appropriate and there have been no comments or concerns from any parents about it. They value it. So, perhaps men need to take heart from that and stop retreating from their kids’ lives.
loading...
There are definitely some friends and relatives that I would feel fine with (male and female) when it comes to bathing, and others not so much. The sticky point, in my opinion, is that the author didn’t first discuss it with the parents, and that the parents didn’t discuss it with her either. Simple conversation = no confusion for carer, parent or child.
We always make it a point to discuss who is allowed to touch what with our sons, and the difference between private and public when it comes to nudity. They know when certain people come over it’s ok to have some freedom, but if it’s not someone close to them, pants on. We want our kids to be informed of the boundaries, but confident and unashamed too.
loading...
She’s only 2. She wont remember.
loading...
I can remember just about everything from when I was 2
loading...
my parents started fostering to young boys a few years ago. the foster system has a strict policy that the permanent carers cant be nude in front of the children, which is of course understandable. neither boy (aged 5 and 6) had seen a nude woman before and it started to become a bit of a weird a obsession, they were trying to look under mums bedroom door while she changed etc. so one day she took them to the public pool and had them get changed in the womens change room afterward, plenty of nude women of different sizes showering etc. there were lots of giggles and staring but they saw that it was no big deal and it was a complete non-issue after that!
i think this is a good example of whatever we try to make ‘taboo’ or ‘naughty’ is exactly what the kids will focus on, better to relax about it and then its not really an issue!
loading...
I’ve been a single parent for seven years of my child’s nine years. In that time I’ve never dated and I know there will never be a step-dad or ‘uncle’ anywhere near her. I KNOW that there are good men out there but I can’t and won’t risk choosing the wrong one. This is so sad for both of us. I would never leave a child with a man for any reason. I see them let their children run through carparks, I see them lose them in shops, the other day I watched in horror as one pushed a pram out into the path of a car at traffic lights. I hear about children getting hurt because men just don’t watch them like women do. They don’t see the dangers. I feel so bad about this and I know I’m screwy but thanks for letting me confess!
loading...
With opinions like this (and a lot of negativity towards men around children in general being voiced in the comments), I really believe that women have nothing to complain about in regards to child-rearing being women’s work and the resultant inequalities faced in the workforce due to this assumption. As far as I am concerned, this is a clear example of women being their own worst enemies…we reap what we sow!!!
loading...
I agree.
I think the people on the Feminism post the other day who think it’s ridiculous to believe in ‘equality for all genders’ because women have the monopoly on being discriminated against should have a look at some of these comments.
Men in general are too reckless to be trusted with children? For shame.
loading...
I disagree! Anon stated that she wouldn’t leave a child with a step-dad or ‘uncle’ – they’re not the child’s father (who should have an equal parenting role), they’re non-biologically related men in close proximity to the child. Statistics show that that’s the most common perpetrator of sexual assualt on children.
I used to work at a sexual assault law firm and I am 100% with Anon on this – and very grateful that she’s protecting her children in that way.
loading...
No she didn’t, she said – I would never leave a child with a man for any reason. This is the main reason she has nothing to complain about.
loading...
And all you are doing is perpetuating the myth that men are bad to children. Look at a few real statistics, how many rock spiders actually exist out there? There are very few as a proportion of the total male population.
All you do with attitudes like this is pass your prejudices and bigotry toward men to the next generation. I’d bet london to a brick that you’d be the first to complain if you heard a man teach his sons that women were only good for cooking and sex.
The simple facts are that the vast majority of men find children as sexually attractive as a bus.
Your attitude is offensive and If I could, I’d sue you for libel with your ridiculous and bigoted statement.
You are as big a misandrist as I’ve ever encountered and you should be ashamed of yourself.
loading...
Does your child have a relationship with his/ her father? Do you allow him to spend time with your child?
loading...
That’s really sad. May be worth getting some help about that. I recall seeing something that said that men’s cavalier attitudes (according to women) are actually good because they take risks and allow kids to take risks. I’m a risk taker anyway, but I try to keep it in mind with KDot as her father isn’t around.
loading...
I have 5 year old twin boys and they don’t think twice about walking into the bathroom when I’m in the shower and often asking if they can get in too. They never go near the bathroom when Daddy is in there!!! I can’t go to the loo, get dressed, do my hair etc without at least one of my two shadows somewhere close by… I know in time they will certainly stop doing this but for now its just the way things are!!!
I think its sad that men don’t seem able to have the same relationship with their children, I know I didn’t do that to my father either yet I am the typical “Daddy’s girl” he is my hero and I worship the ground he walks on yet NEVER was it a done thing for me to go into the bathroom while he was in there or the other way around.
My children are the same its ok for them with me but they just don’t with their Dad. He showered with them when they were infants but since they were able to walk it just seemed to become taboo… Now I am wondering why…
loading...
I don’t find this weird at all. I often get in the shower while my two little brothers (3&4) are in the bath at my place on nights that they are sleeping over. When they were babies I’d always take them in the bath with me, now I’m not so keen to get in with them, only because they like the water lukewarm and splash too much!
loading...
I feel so very sorry for men these days. My husband gets weird looks when he kisses our son on the mouth (our son just doesn’t get cheek kissing) or calls him darling or sweetheart. Men aren’t “supposed” to be gentle or tender or caring with kids, theirs or not.
I would have no problem with my close male friends having a bath with my kids. I genuinely wouldn’t. Nor would I be worried about a girlfriend bathing my son. As some previous posts have said, nudity does not equate to sexuality and kids don’t understand the whole nudity/privacy thing.
loading...
This story reminds me of when i was a teenager a family friends two year old son would find it hilarious to sneak in the bathroom and open the shower and yell “SURPRISE”!
Going one step further and actually getting in the shower with me would then not have been any different! the kid has already seen me!
Another friend of mine was living in a rental without a bath tub. Once the kid was old enough to not be in the a baby bath a parent would shower with the kid. Once i babysat the child and she had to ask me to shower with him. It was either that or get saturated!!
loading...
I have no problem with this whatsoever! I always tell my mum to shower with our kids when they sleep over but she refuses, so you both have to be comfortable with it. I have a friend who was looking after her neice one night and her sister told her the same thing. Instead, she tried to stand in the door of the shower, fully clothed while her neice was in the water….all that acheived was a huge mess and a crying todller!
loading...
Ah yes see my post above!
loading...
I would have no problem with my 3 year daughter having a shower with one of my girlfriends but their husbands maybe not….my husband sometimes showers with my daughter but he wears his undies in the shower as she is a very curious little girl and he doesnt want her reaching out of grab something she shouldnt
loading...
I’m going ‘under cover’ for this post.
Teach your children the proper words for body parts. The sky will not fall in if your daughter uses the word ‘vagina’ instead of the ‘pet’ names. Empower your children by giving them a full understanding of THEIR body so they can take ownership.
Teach your children about stranger danger in moderation. The vast majority of adults will help a child in need (yes, even men!). When you scare a child into thinking that all strangers are bad you stop them from learning how to ask for help. Also, it is well documented that predators tend to prey on vunerable children who are not confident, teach your children how to speak confidently to strangers.
Stop equating nudity with sex.
It’s time society grew up. By wrapping our children in cotton wool and playing the prude card we are not winning the war on child sexual abuse. It is more rife than ever.
For goodness sake empower your children to know their body, value their body. When you teach children to be fearful you teach them from the outset that hey are victims, teach them to WARY but teach them to USE THEIR VOICE.
loading...
Well said. Shame that you felt you needed to go undercover in order to say it.
loading...
Agree! my 2 year old refers to his penis all the time (slightly obsessed by it at the moment) and the comments i get from people! i think they’d be less shocked if he dropped the f bomb.
loading...
I might have drilled this a little too hard. ‘my feet, my hair, my mouth, my tummy’ and yes, ‘ my vagina!’. Try getting someone’s nappy changed and then getting someone dressed with that logic:)
loading...
that’s a great comment – i don’t know why you needed to go under cover – it was well said and CORRECT!
I saw two kids skate off on their little scooters at Manly a few weeks ago and 20minutes later when i’d turned back they were with an older man and I overheard ‘what colour shirt does your dad have’ so I pulled up (as i was a little concerned about the man…i know that’s prejudice, he was helping them out but a week later in the paper about an attempted abduction….!) anyway, I pulled up and said I’d seen them down yonder 20minutes ago so they had come from so-and-so direction. I suggested I take them to the surfclub. That their parents might go look there (I dunno, I don’t have kids – I guess maybe the surfclub could have put a call over the loudspeaker?!). P.S the little guys name was Hunter & he was 4 (LOL so cute).
Anyway, then his dad walks up – and just says ‘come on guys’ – they’d been missing from their dad for 20minutes and he didn’t seem to mind or be worried and he didn’t care they were with 2 strangers, and he didn’t even say thank-you. Looked at us like nothing was wrong and why are we concerned!!
Did I mention the weekend after the paper reported an attempted child abduction on a beach walkway just like Manly….
So, in closing (sorry I got carried away) kids need to know who they are and whats ok and not ok and be confident. This little tyke was A.OK with talking to this guy about the fact he couldn’t find his dad – AND he knew to stay on the path where everyone was…unfortunately his dad didn’t seem to care he’d lost sight of his kids for 20minutes….and THATS a problem.
loading...
Well said! Couldn’t agree more. I have a 2 year old boy and another boy on the way and it saddens me to think that their Dad or Pop could one day feel uncomfortable to show them affection or shower with them. I can’t see it happening, but I guess public pressure can be a strong thing.
Also, you’ve got it in one: “Stop equating nudity with sex”
loading...
Great comment! I recently completed a course about stranger danger, child abuse etc, and the educator said the most frustrating thing with trying to identify child abuse is that kids use “pet” names for their private parts, which causes a great deal of ambiguity. She used an example of how a girl had come to her kindy teacher saying that “uncle ted had touched my Tiddley Wink” which could mean anything. Is Tiddley Wink a toy? Her vagina? Her dog? Turns out it was, in fact, her vagina, but if she had learned to say “uncle Ted touched my vagina” it would make the situation much clearer, thus enabling authorities to act a lot quicker than spending time trying to figure out what “tiddly wink” was.
loading...
Yes this is correct. I had counselling a few years back and I asked my counsellor about the idea that we should teach our kids correct words for our genitals etc. I said how on earth could it help protect a child? She said firstly it takes away the mystique of our private parts, takes away the “shame” we attach to them. We call a leg a leg but if we call a vagina a vajayjay then the child automatically assumes something is not quite right with vaginas and so the confusion begins. She also made the same point you made, that if a child is abused there will be no ambiguity as to what happened when the child can point to their vagina/penis/bottom/boobs/nipples and use the correct words to describe the relevant area.
My children use the correct words for all their body parts.
loading...
Agree 100%. We have made a real effort to get over our squeamishness and use the real names for all body parts. I still have a mental hesitation before saying vagina for 6 years, and now we have a little boy, so I have to get used to saying penis too.
THe other important thing is to remove the emphasis on “stranger danger” and focus it on “feeling unsafe” or “feeling uncomfortable”. A vast majority of abused/molested kids will be victims of someone they know, NOT a stranger, so if all our awareness focuses on “don’t get into a car with a strange man”, we are neglecting one of the main things that will protect them – their gut instinct.
Kids really do know if someone/something makes them feel uncomfortable, and we just need to encourage them to use their voice – whether it is to the potential abuser, “No, you can’t touch me there” or to us or a teacher, “Mr Smith has asked me to come to his room at lunchtime for special lessons” (or whatever).
loading...
We’re a house that’s cool with casual nudity, but I wouldn’t like my friends getting in the bath with my kids. Probably because I don’t do this – I like the water hot!
loading...
If you trust your friend to care for your child, feed your child, bath your child in your absence, then why a question of ‘trust’ if showering with them?
Is the friend you entrusted to care for your child suddenly going to turn into a creepy weirdo?
I would have no problem with the closest of my friends taking a shower at the same time as my child.
I showered with me 3 year god daughter when I was 8 months pregnant and she rubbed my belly. Not at all ‘weird’ but completely natural. Now as a 10 year old she can’t even remember that time.
For me it’s more about the age of the child and how they feel about it, if they were embarrassed by nudity etc. Personally, I’d draw the line at 5 years of age. My 7 year showers with me on a regular basis and our house rule is “nude’s not rude”.
loading...
This.
If a predator is going to assault your child when you have left your child in their care, they’re not just going to wait until they can have a shower together.
If you trust someone enough to take full responsibility of your child, you obviously trust that they are never going to hurt the child.
So what if they have a shower or bath together – I have a small group of family/friends who I trust implicitly to care for my child and I would have no problem with any of them having to do this if necessary. And they would feel the same about me and their own children.
Nudity does not equal sex.
loading...
Hmm this is an interesting one. My sister is 12 years older than me and naturally she had kids first. I remember when I was 15 she spent a long time trying to convince me that it was ok to shower with my 18 month old nephew. Finally did it and realised it was not a big deal. As people have said nudity does not equal something sexual.
I don’t know if I would shower with any my friend’s kids only because I would be worried my friend would have a problem with it. However, I am sure they would have a problem if my partner (who they have the same level of friendship with as me) showered with their child. I find this realisation very disappointing….
loading...
As much as this is going to sound horribly sexist, my mum always taught me as a kid that if I was lost, I should seek help from a woman with kids. Statistically, that was/is the safest bet.
I adore men. I know the vast majority would never sexually abuse a child. But yeah, I still trust women slightly more, and the statistics do back that up.
That said, I don’t think I’d have a problem with a relative of either sex bathing with my very young child. Although, experience tells me they’d be more reluctant to anyway.
loading...
I like your mom’s advice – I think it is very practical.
loading...
that is great advice from your mum, will definitely use this with my kids!
loading...
This is exactly what I was taught too! Of course, the one time I got lost was at a military aircraft exhibition, where I was with my dad. No mums with kids at all, but plenty of dads. I still remember trying to make the judgement call in my head about whether a dad with kids was ok…as I decided it was a dad came over to rescue me. I didn’t know anything about abuse or safety at that stage, I was just very keen to do the thing I’d been told and get it right.
(My dad was approximately 4 metres from where I’d last seen him; he’d moved onto the next stand at the exhibition, I hadn’t heard him tell me!)
loading...
lol! I vaguely remember mum also saying that it was alright to approach a man too, if I felt he seemed nice and if there were no mums around.
The main thing is that the kids approach SOMEONE. A predator is most likely to be the one coming up and offering help. Ergo, if a kid chooses someone themselves, it’s less likely to be a creep.
My mum was a victim of sexual abuse herself, so she was very pro-active about teaching me how to look out for myself.
Another smart thing she did was tell me that if ever i was at a friends house and I felt uncomfortable, I could ring her and say our special password, and she would come pick me up right away, making some excuse.
She also taught me to “yell and tell” if anyone ever did try and touch me.
Thankfully, I never faced any of that, but I’m so glad I was prepared!
Oops, slight segue, sorry, but maybe it will help someone!
loading...
I think the prejudice is justified. 25 % of the population are sexually abused as kids and mainly by men. Men are far more sexual then most women and the risks are higher. It is reality I am afraid.
I would not be upset by my kids showering with lady friends- no way with men
loading...
“25 % of the population are sexually abused as kids and mainly by men”
Can you please provide the source for this statistic? 25% sounds like a lot and I’m interested in where the number came from.
“Men are far more sexual then most women and the risks are higher.”
This is a massive generalisation…
loading...
It is a common statistic spouted about in the media.
And as someone who was abused as a child in similar situations I would never put my kids in danger. People never suspect the people who do these things and for many it is unthinkable but it happens and it happens a lot.
loading...
do you really actually believe everything the media tells you?
In all seriousness, Im very sorry that you have clearly been through something that shouldnt happen to anyone EVER.
Please dont equate men with sexual assault as a generalisation. Have you considered that maybe the very few sexually deviate people might have had more than one victim (probably several)? Also, sexual deviates can have vulvas/vaginas too.
Oh and to be perfectly clear even the non-deviate-types can have a highers sex drive no matter what bits they have in their pants.
loading...
Just because you don’t believe everything the media says (perhaps because it makes you uncomfortable), doesn’t mean it’s not true.
It took me less than 5 seconds to find these links:
http://www.aifs.gov.au/nch/pubs/sheets/rs1/rs1.html
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mediareleasesbytitle/A19F3C10F18B5DE1CA2575CA00244A5D?OpenDocument
loading...
Nicki, you are missing the part where i am questioning the link between 25% of people abused = men are dangerous.
Would it be plausible to suggest that there are unreported cases of sexual assault by women? Would it also be plausible to suggest that if an abuser had more than one victim (regardless of gender) the number of abusers in the population would be possibly lower by those same statistics as 12.5% of the ENTIRE population could have at some stage done something which was constituted by the victim as sexual assault.
Those are still good odds (in favour of *most* men and women not being deviates) as far as im concerned. Im certainly not devaluing or demeaning the experiences of victims, but statistics in the hands of people who dont understand them are a dangerous thing.
Do the good people in the world have to cop on the chin the suspicions of an ill-informed society?
loading...
I had a look at the links. Nowhere does it say 25% of people are sexually abused.
It does say that 25% of victims of sexual abuse are aged between 10 and 14.
Last year in Australia there were 79.5 reported sexual abuse cases per 100,000 population, that is 0.0795%. There’s no way 25% can come from those numbers.
That figure of 79.5 per 100,000 population is also reported cases, not convicted cases.
Yes, I know there are a lot of cases that are not reported, but all that does is protect the criminal.
So the result is that the assertion that 25% of people are sexually abused is baseless and nothing more than man bashing.
It’s also offensive.
loading...
If you are seriously worried about child abuse it’s probably not the shower you need to worry about but ALL situations where you are leaving your child with a man. Child abuse can happen anywhere. Would you feel comfortable if your child had a male teacher, sports coach, driving instructor, music teacher, ran the local corner shop…….. perhaps get rid of all males or at least 25% of them.
loading...
Oh blah blah blah Cait. So she can’t quote the exact source of the statistic. Do you dispute that child abuse occurs? Do you dispute that it occurs almost exclusively at the hands of men?
Yes it might be a few men doing all the assaulting – no one’s saying that all men are rapists. What she’s saying is that statistically speaking, men are far more frequently the perpetrators of sexual assault. I’m not really sure what you’re trying to achieve by arguing semantics, it just makes you look thick.
loading...
Im not going to lower myself to calling someone ‘thick’ but to believe blindly that 25% of the population is sexual abused is ridiculous UNLESS you look at the paramaters from which these responses are taken.
Not once did I belittle sexual assault. All i did was try to take the gender bias out of it. I HATE the looks that my BIL gets when he takes the kids to the park – just as an example. Its ridiculous!
If people take the gender bias out of it, they might realise that female family friends etc doing the same things are actually equal to sexual assault too. Its about setting boundaries without gender being a factor.
To not look at the facts as a whole- rather than the bits that the media feed the public- creates dangerous misinformation.
loading...
The statistic she was referring to was that 1 in 4 women are sexually assaulted at some point in their lives – she’s misquoted or misunderstood it, but I don’t think that changes the point she was making.
I agree that it’d be lovely to take the gender bias out of sexual assault. But in order to do that you’d have to overlook the statistics which overwhelmingly show – consistently, for generations – that the vast majority of perpetrators are men and the vast majority of victims are women. Are there some male victims? Absolutely, heaps. Are there some female perpetrators? Yeah, absolutely there are.
But we’re not talking about a 60/40 split – do as much research as you want it it will tell you that above 90% of perpetrators are male and victims female. I think with that kind of gender division you actually start denying the significance of gender if you ignore it, which is extremely dangerous and problematic.
It would be like going back to pre-civil rights Amercia and arguing that white men got murdered by black men sometimes too, so you should really just take race out of it. No, you shouldn’t – there’s a systemic problem causing the prevalence of the particular perp/victim pattern.
On another note, sorry for being so rude yesterday, that was really uncalled for. I’d just gotten worked up by people’s posts!
loading...
You believe everything you read in the media?
25% is way over the top. I’m surprised you didn’t question the voracity of this statement before repeating it.
The bottom line is that 25% is so much of a joke that you’re effectively discounting the problem with wild statements that are so obviously wrong.
loading...
iAmandaroseI personally know so many many people who have been abused as children. of my closest friends over half have been. It does happen a lot and it happens in these situations as the are opportunities. pedophiles don’t go about hunting kids- they usually just lose control when temptation arises. My friends step dad abused his son in the bath every night. Their was opportunity and temptation.
I know not all men are bad and I feel for men accused wrongly of abuse and the fears they have of false accusation but it is just so common particularly in low socioeconomic communities.
I would not be comfortable with my kids bathing with a man who is not their dad( and even the not exactly comfortable with it)
I don’t doubt the stats- I here about it at work everyday. It is a difficult statistic to measure as so many are unreported.
and I know not 25% of men are perverts but I would question what % a man fell If he had a bath with my daughter. It is not necessary and rather weird.
her Grandfather wanted her to sleep in his bed while we were away on holiday and I would absolutely not let that happen despite no reason to suspect him.
How do you explain to your child you let Uncle Johnie have baths with them while you stayed over and she got abused?
It is an absolute no go zone and the bathroom is private and with nudity involved the risks are high enough to avoid
loading...
Wah, are you serious? Has the grandfather ever shown any tendencies? Has anyone said something to you? What a horrible thing to do to both you child and the man you entrusted to mind your child while you were away (them being with you or without) your poor poor child. What a loss of a fulfilling relationship for her.
And I am talking as a person who was physically, sexually and emotionally abused by my father from the age of 2-14.
My daughter was taught to respect herself and her body and trust her intuition. I had no issue whatsoever with her being close to her dad, uncles or grandparent. I think this is one of the reasons why she has healthy relationships with her boyfriend and friends.
loading...
Please do your research. Rape and abuse is more about power than anything else. Not denying that there are seriously perverted people out there but they are both men and women, but majority of attacks and abuse are about power. Saying that men are more sexual is silly and wrong. Men are more visual than women is more correct, but that doesn’t mean that it equates to being sexually attracted to children.
loading...
I felt quite okay with nudity in front of my kids until yesterday morning my 5 year old son was watching me get dressed and said “mummy you’ve got such funny boobies!” All of a sudden I just wanted to cover them up and hide them away forever. I do realise this reaction says more about my own issues with body image than about my feelings on nudity in general!
loading...
Holly, I am assuming yours are the only boobies your 5 year old has seen, so he is not making a comparison! Kids puts words together, not always appropriately, and they often don’t mean what they actually say
loading...
For some reason my youngest (5yrs) has always had a problem with my armpits – she hates it if I wear a singlet!
loading...
Post a pic and we’ll tell you if he’s right
loading...
We have visited Japan with our kids many times and communal bathing is quite the norm. It is segregated so my husband bathes with the boys and I bathe with the girls. I’m not sure at what age it changes but if I were not able to take my daughter she would go into the men’s onsen.
loading...
At the local pool there are no doors on the showers…you’re practically showering with a room full of strangers anyhow!!
loading...
However, at our local pool there is a sign that says that children over the age of 5 must use the changing rooms of the correct gender, and if a parent/caregiver of the same gender as the child is not available, the parent/caregiver and child(ren) must use the special individual family change rooms.
I don’t know if there has been an incident/complaint that has caused this policy, or whether they are just covering themselves in case.
loading...
Our local pool doesn’t have family change rooms so we’re all in together. My 6 and 8 year old boys come into the women’s change room with me.
loading...
Yet if a man took two little girls into the men’s change room there would be hell to pay.
loading...
I don’t agree. If my husband takes the kids to the pool, they go into the change rooms with him. They are under his care. There are plenty of notices at our local pool stating that the life guards are not babysitters ie. look after your own kids, which he does.
loading...