How much pain do you let your kids experience?
by MELISSA CHAPMAN
My husband and I have VERY different ideas when it comes to letting our kids experience pain.
This summer my daughter had a pretty tough bullying experience at her day camp. And while I let her attend three weeks of camp – the last two of which chipped away relentlessly at her self esteem and then made the decision to send her to a different camp – my husband was vehemently opposed to my decision to let her come home.
Here’s how the conversation went:
Me: “Honey (I always preface every conversation in which I know I will be attempting to get on his good graces by addressing him as ‘Honey’) our daughter has morphed into a sullen depressed middle aged woman, taking to her bed each day after camp. That spark and excitement she had about the summer – has all but dimmed. I really feel like the best possible thing would be to take her out of this situation.”
The Sugar Daddy: “Our daughter needs to learn to adjust to a bad situation. Not all situations are going to be ideal. She has to grow a thicker skin and adjust and make the best of things.”
Me: “But HONEY, this is the summer – she has eight weeks to just be, to enjoy, to be a kid, to be free and well, she seems like a prisoner of war as opposed to a happy go lucky camper. This camp situation is literally sucking the lifeblood from her. She is saying she CAN’T wait for camp to be over. THIS IS NOT the way her summer is supposed to play out – NOT under my watch.”
The Sugar Daddy: “Prisoner of WAR? I can’t say I agree this camp is on par with prison.”
Me: “YOU are a man. You cannot begin to fathom the way little girls can be to one another, how insidious and harmful their chatter can be – and how it can break a little girl’s spirit. Boys are not the same – or at least as far as I can tell, our son has never had any kind of emotional turmoil from other boys on this level.”
Do you and your partner disagree?
The Sugar Daddy: “She should stay and stick it out. It will strengthen her character and help her to see that the world is not always this shiny place. That life is hard and you will need to adjust to your environment and sometimes be uncomfortable.”
Me: “This was a no-win situation for us. These 11 year old girls could get a slap on the wrist – but their words, whether in hushed tones or via texts would likely continue. There is only so much adults can do to stem this type of virulent bullying bad-girl behavior – sometimes you just have to get them out.”
“Our girl just doesn’t have the type personality to withstand such kids – she is too weak and gentle. She’s not learned yet that sometimes you will need to be a CATTY BITCH to survive and honestly I’m not so sure I even want her to internalize that message just yet. Not at 11 years old.”
I could go on and on with our sparring because it has now been one week and a day since we rescued our daughter from camp and while I have seen her old self reemerge since then, my husband still feels I made a mistake.
So I put it to you dear readers… what would you have done?
Melissa Chapman is the chief blogger at Married My Sugar Daddy, which you can find here.
Comments
93 Comments so far
Its hearwrenching that we think that this sort of situation is normal. I worry about the state of the world (take a look at what is going on globally) and it is this sort of mentality that got us here. We need a change, and it must start with how we raise our kids.
I’ve been reading about something called integral education lately. Here is part of an article geared at kids 6-9. Because boy do we need a different way to raise kids if we are going to see a change in the world….
“Ages 6-9: The Ability to Reflect on Oneself and the Environment….
Many psychologists now attest to the fact that people who commit terror acts and other physical abuse lacked precisely this kind of guidance as children. These individuals act out of a desire to feel acknowledged by others, to have others see them as important and special, and to find a place where they can fit into society. This is because no one helped them understand the right way to connect with their environment when they were young. No one showed them how to receive attention, recognition, and importance the right way, and this void drives them to achieve these goals any way they can.1
We can help our children avoid these negative expressions in society by teaching them the right way to connect to others through exercises they perform as part of their education. Children have to role play being in various circumstances which they will encounter in life, including situations of jealousy, control, power play, lies, and cheating. After they role play being in these situations, they should discuss what happened, how they reacted, and why. They should explore questions such as: What is the reason for this negative occurrence? Is it a result of human nature? If so, is it possible to “rise above” it?
The children should hold an actual “court” in class to deal with cases of abuse and theft, for example, with one child playing the role of the offender and another child – the role of the victim. Another two children can play the victim’s mother and father, while the rest of the children in class can be the judges, the jury, the prosecutor and the defense, and so on. The children have to take this scenario seriously, as if they really are in that role. For example, the offender should bring proof that he is innocent, meaning that he had no other options but to act the way he did.
After the first “hearing” of the court is done, it is advisable to allow the children to take a break for a while and then to change roles. If a child played the role of the victim before, now he should play the role of the offender’s mother or father.
That way the children will be able to experience and observe themselves in different roles. They will begin asking themselves questions such as, “How could I have thought that he was wrong yesterday, while today I’m completely convinced that he is right?” As a result, this will become much more than a game because the children will gradually begin asking about – and understanding – the larger meaning of life. They will begin to empathize with others, to actually “feel their neighbor.” A child will begin to understand that others can also be right even if they have a different opinion than himself. He will understand that tomorrow he might also find himself in a different situation, and thus he will develop the feeling of empathy, the ability to identify with other people and other concepts of reality.
Another possibility of expanding this exercise is to stream the discussion via the internet, with an entire virtual community of children sharing their opinion on the topic being discussed.
By means of these exercises the children will develop the ability to communicate with different people, even if these people disagree with them or hate them, because they will understand that they too could find themselves in the other situation at some point in the future.
Most importantly, this style of education will adapt the children to living in a global, interconnected world. For example, it will give them an intuitive understanding of the elusive fact of quantum physics: That each one of us includes all the possible situations, as well as the fact that every person has a place in this world and therefore we must show patience and tolerance to all.
If we can teach our children to understand that we are all undergoing constant changes (just like our own opinion could suddenly change during a game or a discussion or as a result of such things) and that we shouldn’t be afraid of change, they will be able to continue developing throughout their entire lives. This will mark the beginning of a child’s true maturation into a “human being” because a “human being” is someone who is able to overcome his animalistic desires and drives, to see, judge, and analyze himself from the broader perspective of the collective.
How does the educator fit into this role playing game? His responsibility is to make sure that the discussion is interesting and realistic, that everyone understands what is being discussed, and that it does not digress to unnecessary topics.
The duration of the role playing game may be anywhere from just a few minutes and up to two hours, and should conclude with the children sharing their impressions of what took place.
The key principles for the exercise are:
1. The situation should be realistic and relevant to the children’s lives, and
2. The topic for discussion should be suitable to the children’s age and level of understanding.
The most important concept to be learned is that other people are entitled to their own opinions. We are all human and as such, we all have weaknesses, problems, and things about us that we don’t like. Games such as this will enable us to correct the things that need correction and to expose the good things in others and emphasize them. “
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Wow, thank you! It seems we are missing a whole section of education for our children.
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Three weeks is a long time in a little girls life. I would have taken her out of camp too and made sure that the people running the camp knew exactly why. These people have a duty of care and that includes making sure all the kids feel safe and are having a good time.
Your daughter has many more years to ‘toughen up’. Let her enjoy being 11 years old.
(I do think the word ‘bully’ is over used these days. My kids are 9 and 12 and have never experienced any bullying. Bad behaviour and rough play…yes, but bullying…..no).
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YOU ABSOLUTELY DID THE RIGHT THING.
I remember every single time I was bullied. Stuff from when I was in year 2- I still remember the sting.
Yes the world is a tough place but bullying can completely break someone’s self esteem.
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you absolutely did the right thing… yes the world is a tough place, but an adult needs to know when to wisely cut their losses. Simply staying put in a bad situation is not really a life skill, anyway. Moreover, it’s not like you’re encouraging her to walk away from every little thing that seems a bit tough. This is about walking away from abusers. When she gets older, you’d never want her to stay in an abusive relationship, why encourage her to condone it now?
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“Simply staying put in a bad situation is not really a life skill, anyway.”
Oh, this!
Staying put in a bad situation is a big red flag of depression.
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Pulled her straight out !!! Your husband doesn’t have a clue !
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I can understand where your husband is coming from but in an age where so many young people commit suicide following extensive bullying I would “bring her home”. She needs to be taught how to be strong and resilient. I don’t think this can be done by simply saying “suck it up”
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Please get her out of there. In a few years time, you won’t regret taking her out but you will certainly regret letting her suffer by staying.
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My son was bullied in year 7 because he was made vice capt of the footy team ahead of someone in Yr 8. I spoke to the coach, his year advisor and then the asst. principal over a matter of weeks and nothing was done. He didn’t want to play league anymore or go to school. I was at a loss of what I could do next. So I resorted to asking an older boy I knew to go with my son while he pointed out the bullies. The bullying suddenly ceased and he never had another problem.
I know it’s not socially acceptable to do this, but this is my son and I’ll protect him come hell or high-water.
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I was bullied from age 10 and into age 16 and 17. I tried it all, as an individual. Ignoring the problem does not make it go away, why are we still prescribing that advice to people? The only thing that did work in my case was a friend sticking up for me and kicking the other girl in the stomach, she never hurt me again.
As an adult I witnessed an issue while catching the bus, and after the third day I stood up and defended the victim, I told him to grow up and stop being a …..and so forth, you get the point. I used words and I told him he should do better for himself as he was making a idiot of himself to everyone here.
Many people bullied me, mainly because I had ‘buck’ teeth, oh how I still loath that word to the depths of my soul. I’ve seen bulling as an adult as well and it isn’t pretty.
The only advice I can give not being a parent is simply if it was you and you were 11, would you want to be removed? take a stand with your husband and tell him today this is how it goes, his going to have to take one for the team this time. when you have it all sorted out sit down with her and your husband and discuss it as a family, if she wants to stay let her, otherwise out.
I wish you all the best.
Oh and I had the last laugh, I got my teeth fixed, got a degree, wear size 7 jeans and have lovely long chocolate brown hair that falls in soft curls around my face. Having brains always wins.
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That’s terrific that you could use this experience to grow and learn and develop. In the end, you still fell into the picture of ‘what is socially acceptable’ (your comment about your looks). Many kids do not. Have you noticed that bullying can lead to extreme behavior such as mass shootings? There are so many kids who have aspergers and high functioning autism these days. Do we continue to allow bullying even if these kids have no clue why they are being bullied? Or do we need to re-address why we consider this sort of behavior normal. The comment made by Debra (above in the comments stream) about education our kids using ‘integral education’ seems to address some of these issues. This is a much bigger subject than just deciding whether to step in or allow a child to be bullied.
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Get her out! There’s plenty of time for life lessons. 11yo is too fragile.
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I think you could encourage your kids to stay but if they continue to really hate it, struggle and nothing is improving I would pick them up. Of course you want to teach your kids not to give up easily and that bad moments pass but they also need to know you’re there for them when they need you.
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I am also speaking from experience as I was bullied at a school camp aged around 9 or 10 and developed strong anxiety about camps after that. I eventually moved schools which was the most beneficial thing as I made new friends and improved but the bullying was super damaging to my self esteem and well being. I would’ve deteriorated further if my parents hadn’t moved me. They had already tried for a long time to stick it out and make it better but sometimes you just need to get the hell outta the situation especially as a child.
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This is so timely for me! I have a14 year old daughter, who is mature, responsible and academic. She has been bullied multiple times throughout the years, so I have tried almost every strategy in the book- from “rise above it” (completely ineffective-the bullying worsened) to verbal confrontation (with the instructions “attack their poor behaviour, not the person”) which had moderate success. The latest bullying episode was the fault of her English teacher (who awarded another student my daughters mark in a “paired assignment”- when the other student did not in any way contribute to said assignment as she had not been at school. When my daughter queried this, she was spoken to rudely and aggressively in front of other students). This resulted in a group “intervention” whereby her friendship group ganged up to tell her she was a “bitch” followed by weeks of social ostracism, rumor spreading and other vile behaviour. The school has apologized on behalf of the teacher but has made little effort to address the bullying which was so awful my daughter was unable to sleep, focus on school work and in the end- attend school. So you can tell you husband- I am walking away from a $20,000/ year academic scholarship (she’s at a private school) and enrolling her elsewhere to get her away from this situation. I revised my “tough it out” opinions of the past when a friend told me in no uncertain terms what a risk I was taking with my daughters mental health by doing this. Her son ended up suicidal due to bullying. It’s a bit late to wish you’d been more pro-active and supportive once they’ve taken the ultimate step to escape it. Anyway, Melissa-life is too short for your daughter to be so miserable-she’s 11! I think it is healthy to teach your kids to walk away if a situation is making them desperately unhappy (work, relationships, friendships…) Does your hubby want her to “stick it out” in an abusive relationship in the future? No? As an adult, she CAN walk away, but as a kid she’s stuck until you make a decision for her. I think you have done the right thing-the situation wasn’t going to improve, it was making her miserable and she was powerless to do much about it. Good call by you, I thnk!
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From my very small, unscientific study of friends – those who had ‘tough love’ parents have invariably suffered from low self esteem, because often the ‘tough love’ was given without any tools or skills to navigate this so-called tough life. I think if your 11 year old daughter is visibly upset and wants nothing more than to leave the camp – then what is wrong with listening to her concerns and validating her choice to leave? We are told to trust our instincts, shouldn’t this start in childhood? I think Sir Ken Robinson sums it up beautifully in his 2010 TED talk, where he recites Yeats’ poem ‘Tread Softly’ and adds: “And every day, everywhere, our children spread their dreams beneath our feet. And we should tread softly.” I think on many occasions, tough love is merely a lazy option.
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This opened up a can of worms. My children all went to some “camp “ for school holidays, I worked full time.
Tonight I had my daughter(42), my two sons, my grand daughter of 24 and a grand daughter of 14 visiting , So we discussed bullying.
The consensus was that your daughter should have been taught by now how to deal with this situation, she needed to learn to ignore / realise that people who tried to bully her were “below” her and needed to be loved because they were obviously “missing” something in their lives/ to be more confident that she was worthwhile.
Sorry just reporting comments.
It was an interesting conversation, and stopped because dinner was ready. I wish I could have taped it. All of us remembered different times where someone had tried to bully us, confidence in ourselves won out. And my 14yr old grand daughter and I are readers/ non sport people/ not in the popular group and even though we both have had moments of bullying the difference to your story is we have been confident that we are better than our attackers.
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Equals tough love , which equates to parents doing nothing. Kids are committing suicide because of this. Not everyone has the capacity to be able to think when a group of girls has you up against a brick wall, that they must have insecurities. I know I didn’t!
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I think you give it a little time to see how they handle the situation,even talking to her about trying to handle it,but if it got to the point of days of misery,I would have brought her home too.We think it’s a petty girl thing,but if you remember that age,it’s your whole world coming down when someone picks on you.
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Having been bullied around the same age as your daughter, I would most DEFINITELY pull her out of the camp asap!
Little girls are bitches and the way they bully, scheme and act out is unbelievable. Boy bullies have nothing on the girls.
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My dad made me stick it out regardless. I think the risk with this is that it can teach one to carry on with things even when they’re not enjoying themselves or the situation might not be right. Why not teach kids to express how they feel & be where they’re most comfortable. I would pull my kids out of that situation.
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I would have pulled her out. I do think it’s important to teach my kids to be tough about some things, but this wouldn’t be the place or way I’d choose to teach that.
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Girls can be sneaky and ruthless at this age. Knowing that they are upsetting the child in question would only give them a sense of power. They can be quite relentless.
Sometimes the best thing to do is to change the dynamics and remove the child.
When our daughter was in grade 5 in the last term, she had a problem with some of her closest friends turning toxic. We elected to get her moved into a different class without those “friends” in Grade 6.
That was enough to turn the dynamics around and give her enough of a break from the situation to see it more clearly. Interestingly it did ultimately make her more resilient – because of the change in dynamics.
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I love my parents, but they definitely had the ‘toughen up’ approach. As a result, for my early adult life I struggled with self esteem, relationship issues and so on. She is eleven. There is plenty of time and opportunity to build resilience through the teen years. Our kids deserve our protection. I don’t think we build kids up by allowing them to be torn down. I believe it is our duty to make sure that learning takes place through positive life experiences, but mostly that they can trust us to be there when the going does get tough. Life is hard.
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I don’t have kids but i think taking her out was a good idea. Holiday camps are ‘optional’ they’re not like school, and it would suck if she spent her school holidays miserable. However, I don’t think it’s a good idea for a kid to be removed from every single situation where they’re bullied or teased. I think it’s somewhat important for them to learn that not everyone in the world is nice, and its important for them to learn how to deal with people/situations like that. Not that I agree with bullying, not at all!!
I remember my brother started a sunday youth sailing program at the club a few years back (my sister and I had previously done it throughout our teenage years) and at the start he hated it. Every sunday morning he’d be crying going “I hate sailing, everyone hates me, I don’t have any friends, boo hoo hoo”. However my parents made him go, deal with it and now he is the social king down there!
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I think your brother’s case highlights the big difference here. From what you’ve said, he doesn’t appear to be getting bullied and your parents were quite right to insist he keep going. It effectively taught him the rewards of persistence.
The summer day camp example in the post? I think I’d take my child out too in that scenario.
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One (of the?) ongoing parenting differences with my husband is this ol’ chestnut.
My philosophy: when it comes to my kids being pushed around I want them to remember that they have OPTIONS. At one extreme end of that spectrum there is the retaliation option. At the other end, walking away.
And in between? There are many many many other options. Each option is valid, and depending on the circumstances, worth considering. Just like in life, there is not always a one size fits all approach.
My mother was very much like Sugar Daddy. At the time I found it incredibly abandoning. Although, I suspect she – just like Sugar Daddy – had my best interests at heart. I am very resilient and self-reliant. To a fault (one e.g I struggle to ask for help). For better or worse, I directly credit her with those qualities.
As far as pain for my own children. I try not to over-protect them from negative emotions like disappointment, sadness etc. Again, I try to emulate real life and manage their expectations for their future. That being, sometimes you will experience awful-ness, but you will be okay. It’s all normal in life. And nothing is insurmountable.
But when it comes to your pain, we will always be able to work through it together.
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I prefer the description of “sensitive” to “weak and gentle”. Being sensitive has many benefits but the downside is being extremely vulnerable to the behaviour of others which only serves to make the bullies worse. It is a great opportunity to help develop understandings like how it says more about the bully than the person being bullied etc. but I would never allow a sensitive child to be exposed to this over and over if I had the choice. Children are still developing their secure attachment and need to be around caring adults most of the time for this to happen. The way to make a child less vulnerable to bullies is to work on the secure attachment – not just providing skills. Continuing to send her to day camp is akin to sending her out to sea without a life-raft.
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She’s 11. You are her protector and her guardian. If she’s withdrawing herself and becoming sullen then you need to stand up for her, no one else will. Bring her home, cuddle her. Talk, talk, talk about what happened and why it may have happened. Talk, talk, talk about what she can do to face this in the future. She’s 11. Protect her, love her and teach her. Ease her into her next camp and make sure you talk, talk, talk.
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Some things kids have to attend (like school) others (like this holiday camp) are largely optional so if dropping out is realistic, I can’t see what benefit there is in her staying. I normally espouse a ‘harden up’ approach – especially if it (a) was something a kid nagged to do or (b) it cost a lot of money or (c) was necessary for the family to function, but if this girl is unhappy and its no biggie to walk away, I’d give holiday camp a miss. Don’t make a big fuss of it – and whatever you do, don’t tell your daughter she is ‘weak and gentle’. Build her up – strong needn’t mean catty.
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Absolutely taking her out was the best thing. I was once told that you are the sum total of your 5 people you spend the most time with. I wouldn’t want my kids spending their summer with “bad eggs”.
Yes our kids need to learn about the world and how it can be dissapointing but they can learn this through open dialogue with their loving, caring & wiser parents. I know a bit harsh, but you don’t need to give your child a knife for them to know it is sharp.
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I don’t believe children should be ‘thrown out there’ to fend for themselves, away from the security of their family for long periods of time. A few days, fair enough, but a few weeks – too much to expect. The reason they are children is because they are not yet able to cope in life on their own. Let childhood be fun as they have years of hardship and responsibility ahead of them.
How many adults would have altercations with workmates if they had to eat, work and sleep with them for three weeks straight? Why do we put our kids into situations that we would never consider as adults?
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Would you advocate pulling a kid out of school after a few weeks of trouble? This kid was going to a day camp – ie going home every night. No being left to fend for themselves for weeks at a time.
Why does it have to be one extreme or the other? Talk to the people running it and take it from there. Running away doesn’t solve anything. It just says that running away when you don’t like something is what you do, rather than dealing with it.
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Totally disagree. Yes, it was a day camp but it was an optional activity for her to enjoy. Something she was looking forward to. So if she wasn’t enjoying it and it was making her feel miserable and affected her self-esteem then I agree with pulling her out.
School isn’t optional (unless you’re a home-schooler but I’m assuming that’s not the case here). School also isn’t meant to just be a fun activity you do for enjoyment. You go there to learn so of course if you’re having a bad time at school you should attempt to work through the issues.
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OK, what about sport when they’re super keen and then decide they’re not after a couple of weeks. What do you do then? Or dancing or whatever it is that floats your kid’s boat for a while, you shell out the cash for a term or season or whatever, and they decide they’re not keen? Let them bail? That’s silly. It teaches them that it’s cool to just bail if you like something for a bit or it’s toooooo haaaaaaaaaaard or they have a bust up with their bestie that they joined to do it with. Most of this kind of stuff passes, so try dealing with it there, if there’s no solution or it just doesn’t happen, then leave.
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If they’re being bullied ( which equates to emotional abuse in my eyes ) why would you make them stay in a so called team that didn’t want them? There is a big difference between bailing from an impulse and being bullied.
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Disagree again. We’re not talking about a kid changing her mind or having a little fall-out with her bestie. We’re talking about a sensitive 11 year old girl being bullied. And if it were my daughter I would let her know that I have her back and let her stop going if it’s really upsetting her. As someone else said, as adults we can walk away from bullying behaviour but the only out for our kids is their parents acting on their behalf. I can understand a child not wanting to draw more attention to the problem by trying to work it out with everyone involved.
Also, I have a sensitive 5 year old (the most emotional child I have ever met!) and I was in the exact situation you described. She wanted to start ballet but refused to dance for the whole first term because she was too embarrassed. She told me several times she didn’t want to do it anymore. Every week I took her back and she slowly built her confidence and now, a year on, she loves it and runs into the lessons. In that situation I absolutely think she shouldn’t be allowed to bail just because she feels like it’s a bit too hard.
This isn’t about a kid changing her mind or being a brat. It’s about bullying which is a serious issue that can leave deep scars in a child’s confidence and self-esteem.
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I never said anything about anyone being a brat. I said that kids change their minds and often over-react. I’ve been bullied. But I also was given confidence to know that I was good and wasn’t what those idiots were saying.
I still don’t really agree with pulling out of stuff because it’s a bit hard. Try other options before taking your bat and ball and going home.
I was bullied at this age in a similar context at school. Dad called the school about it, the other girls were spoken to and it stopped. Why wouldn’t you try that? Why let the bullies think they’ve won?
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My personal experience with school holiday camps is that I try to avoid them for my kids as much as possible. They tend to be a magnet for kids whose behaviour is challenging and their parents send them there because they dont want to have to deal with their behaviour themselves. And what they really do need is some more attention from their parents rather than flicking them off to camp for the holidays.
So pulling yor daughter out is the best thing for your poor daughter. Kids can be mean and will get away with as much as possible. You should also make the camp officials aware of the behaviour because its not acceptable. Perhaps if these kids have a black mark against there name and cant return next time, their parents might have to actually deal with their behaviour rather than delegate it to young camp workers.
Though in saying that, to play devils advocate here, my daughter has a friend who is always, according to her mum, being picked on or bullied by all sorts of girls. Having seen the child in action personally, she is just as bad as the other girls herself, however mum only hears about it when she’s on the receiving end of it. Something all parents need to keep in the back of their minds
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Sorry, I disagree with your opening statement. My kids are well behaved but have gone to many holiday camps because I work and I dont have family available to help out during the school holidays. It’s hard to cover 10 weeks holidays between the 2 of us.
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I’m with you Misha. We’ve sent our kids to various holiday camps over the years (pony camp being the most pricey). Sometimes it was partly because it helped me out with work, other times it was because they were busting a gut to go. Bit sad that you think only badly behaved, attention starved kids go to these camps.
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I didnt intend to imply that only badly behaved attention starved kids go to camps! However I was saying that from my experience with my own kids when they have gone to holiday camps, the kids who are a pain in the arse at school and make life a nightmare for other kids and teachers alike, will always be the ones who turn up day in, day out, at the local holiday camp too, and make camp time difficult. And the poor young people who usually work at these camps dont have the authority of detention or the Principals Office to scare them into behaving. Thats why I avoid sending my kids to them, once bitten twice shy.
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I agree with the husband. Unfortunately it won’t be the last time this girl comes across a bully. Teach her skills to cope with this rather than remove her from the situation. I think it’s important to build resilience. Monitor the situation closely, but also teach those skills of assertiveness etc.
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She does not need to toughen up. The problem is with the bullies, not with her. Pull her out but also confront the camp organisers and demand they address the issue with the perpetrators. Also, try to use opportunities to help your daughter deal with things in an assertive way. I agree with many of those posting her that she put her trust in her mother and to ignore that is to abuse that trust.
I was bullied at a school camp and it was horrible.
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I have two boys who from the time of primary school have hated ‘camps’ and have been resolute in not wanting to attend them. I insisted they attend camp one year and I attended as a ‘parent helper’ and even with me there as a support they still hated ‘camp’, in particular their dislike of camp has stemmed from the unruly and silly behaviour of others. I have always championed the idea of the boys making their own choices and that their choices needed to be backed up with clear logic and fact and not simply based on ‘because I don’t want to’. Both are now in high school and haven’t attended a ‘camp’ since. I not from the ‘toughen up school of thought’ I have always taught the boys to spend time with people who are like minded and don’t drain you of your positive energy, and therefore I understand their position of not going away to camp as you tend to be thrust into a hothouse of bullying and silly and risk taking behaviour. Would you choose to go away on a holiday or camp with people you really didn’t like? Yeah, sure the counter argument is that we all need to learn to tolerate others because in the workplace you are never going to see eye-to-eye with everyone working alongside you – however, I believe these are very high order cognitive skills and we are asking a lot of our kids to endure difficult behaviours when most adults find this difficult to do in the workplace. In my situation I would have also been in the position of endorsing bullying – “Yeah, I know you don’t like the behaviour of others but that’s life” … what’s that saying “Do unto others as you would want others to do unto you” … that includes your children. I let my children make their own choices, and as long as the choices are reasonable and backed up with logic I’m happy to honour them. As a parent I want to be more guardian angel and less gatekeeper and dictator. It’s worked well for us so far …
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I would have brought her home. Unlike school where a child comes home every afternoon (although bullying now follows kids) the girl would not have had day to day support from her parents at camp.
The author has a trusting relationship with her child as she was told by her daughter of the situation , to leave her there could destory that. It is asking alot of an 11 year old to understand “Im doing it for your own good”.
Certainly teaching a child to learn to deal with bullies , and empower themselves is the right thing to do but the child needs day to day support from her family to benefit
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It was a day camp, so she was going home every day, like school.
Rather than pull her out because she’s a weak little petal (her Mum’s description: “she is too weak and gentle”), speak to the people running it and let them know what is going on, and figure out something to do to fix it. I’m leaning toward the harden up idea. Maybe Dad suggested that because she IS a weak and gentle kid who does need to learn how to deal?
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Definitely take her out!
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pull her out
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I would definitely have done what Mum did here! I was one of the picked ons as a child and I never ever want my daughters, or sons for that matter, to have to go through that. It is one thing to want our kids to toughen up, it is another thing entirely if they are bullied into complete misery. How would we feel if our loved ones didn’t support us if it were happening in the work place or on the bus?
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Definitely take her out! Speaking from personal experience, it makes a child feel like the parent is not on their side and cannot depend on them to help in any way.
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It’s a tough call, isn’t it? To be honest, I think you did the right thing by taking her out. Particularly as from your description of your daughter she is not particularly assertive or good at confronting the other kids. But I think the very important follow up from this is to work with her to develop strategies she can use to deal with this sort of behaviour, because she will more than likely experience it again. While I understand where your husband is coming from, that she needs to deal with the bullies herself etc, she needs you both as parents to give her some guidance and support about HOW she can do that. Just saying “toughen up” and leaving her to work it out while she’s experiencing the bullying is not enough. There are some great books out there (can’t think of any off the top of my head) which talk about different strategies to use, and how to have that conversation with your children.
Eg you could discuss with her how she could tell the bullies that she doesn’t like their behaviour, and that she’d like them to stop; how she could surround herself with other supportive friends/camp leaders etc; about why the kids are doing this type of thing in the first place etc. Also, one of strategy for dealing with bullying is to remove yourself from the situation when your other strategies are not working, or so that you can think about how you are going to deal with it. So you can explain to your daughter that taking her out of camp was not necessarily the wrong thing to do, and that she might be able to use a modified version of that as her strategy – finding a quiet alone space away from the bullies where she can decide how she wants to handle it.
Ultimately one of the goals of parenting is to build resilience in your children so that they can deal with whatever life throws at them. But this doesn’t just mean throwing them into the deep end. To extend that analogy: you teach them to swim, you give them life rafts and you teach them how to signal for help. And you tell them that if they are drowning and none of these strategies are working, you will dive in and save them. Good luck.
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Take her out! Little girls do not necessarily learn to harden up in these kinds of situations. Sometimes they crumble, become more withdrawn and start to resent or hate their parents for putting them in the situation. The mother is right – kids should be having FUN on their Summer holidays, not learning that sometimes the world is a harsh and cruel place!
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In my heart i wold probably want to pull my child out and protect her, however there is much to be said about learning “how” to deal with things that are more difficult.
There are some fantastic programs that are used in schools that can have applications at home. Bounce Back (Helen McGrath) is one of my favourites, it helps a child to see where they sit in the behaviour spectrum. They can learn when they are at fault within an issue by proportioning responsibility when they come up against a problem. It also teaches them about walking away from bullies, standing up to them when the need too and to find an adult to help when that is the necessary solution. Its called the 5 finger approach. I would find out what program they use at her school and help her mirror it at home. I know it sounds weird but i was a terribly shy and sensitive child, the only reason i didn’t get bullied is because my big sister was the school bully and NO ONE would dare. But even as an adult i am finding benefits from these programs. This is the Bounce Back acronym
Bad times don’t last. Things get better. Stay Optimistic
Other people can help you if you talk to them. Get a reality check.
Unhelpful thinking makes you feel more upset. Think again.
Nobody’s perfect. Not you not others.
Concentrate on the positives, no matter how small and use laughter.
Everybody experiences sadness,hurt, failure, rejection and set backs sometimes not just you
Blame Fairly. How much of what happened was because of YOU, OTHERS, or BAD LUCK
Accept what you can’t change and try to change what you can.
Catastrophising exaggerates your worries. Don’t believe the worst possible picture.
Keep things in perspective. It’s one part of your life.
There are activities online and in the books. It has really helped me to look at the world differently
http://www.bounceback.com.au/
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Thank you for the link Missamoo, it looks like a fantastic site. I think that it could be really helpful for many people. I am going to copy that acronym for myself and my daughters.
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LOVE that acronym. Thanks for sharing
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did you ask your daughter if she wanted to pull out?
at 11 years old I think she could have been part of this decision too
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she wanted to pull out
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You know, I think it is character building to learn that you can walk away from people if they aren’t going to treat you right. I don’t see walking away as cowardly. It can be one of the hardest things to do even as an adult. Yes, sometimes you do have to put up with people and make the best of the situation but there are other times that you can choose to walk away. Make new friends, ones that aren’t “catty”. There are other children and other camps. I think it is empowering for a child to learn that they can say “You are nasty, mean and hurtful and I’m not going to have anything to do with you” and leave for greener pastures.
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Yes, I think you did the right thing by pulling her out.
I was bullied by a bunch of girls (friends one day, bullies the next, back and forth) for 5 years during primary school and told no-one – hence nothing was done by the adults. As a grown woman, I still suffer and struggle with female relationships, particularly if I feel I’m being left out. I just can’t trust them. My brother was also bullied but, as a boy, bore the physical scars. Hence our parents were aware of it and, after trying to work with the school, pulled him out and sent him somewhere else. These days he has many, many friends and I wonder if I had spoken out and had the bullying halted whether things would be different for me. We are both kind, gentle people, and were bewildered by the cruelty.
I don’t feel telling a child to ‘toughen up’ is the answer. That’s just code for ‘You’re on your own kid: deal with it’, which may lead to trust and abandonment issues. Teaching her a few coping mechanisms after this incident may be the way to go: there’s loads of anti-bullying books out there nowadays. As Simone said below, she needs to be empowered now.
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Take her out. It is her holidays after all. If it were the schoolyard and the situation was going to be ongoing for years then you would have had to come up with some other solution. When it’s supposed to be a fun holiday, why put her through the torture?
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I would have taken her out. Prince Charles was sent to a school that he hated and was desperately unsuited for because Prince Phillip had the same reasoning as the husband here. And look how well that turned out.
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I don’t agree with your sentiment that ‘you are a man, you cannot begin to fathom’ and ‘boys are not the same’. What’s that supposed to mean? Boys cop it too, and it is just as vicious as what girls get. Also, boys suffer depression, self esteem issues among other things because of bullying, just like girls do.
Now I’ve got that out of the way, If it was my daughter, And she had of had at least one friend there, I would of made her stay. If she was on her own, I would of taken her out.
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This is a tough one. Firstly, girls at that age can be very fickle. One day they really, really hate you the next day you’re all best friends. Often these things work themselves out.
Secondly if your daughter is as you say, “weak and gentle”, chances are she’s going to experience a lot of bullying in her life. I’m not saying that’s right, not at all, but she won’t be able to jump ship every time it happens. Pulling her out of camp is one thing, changing schools is another.
Honestly I don’t think taking her out of camp was the right decision, but now that it’s done I’d really work on helping to prepare her for any bullying she experiences in the future.
I should point out I have first-hand experience of this. I was bullied terribly all through my school years, and my parents let me quit all sorts of things as well as change schools a number of times. The result is that I can’t deal with any kind of bullying, even the really minor stuff like someone being a bitch because they’re having a terrible day. It’s caused me huge issues at uni and in the workplace.
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I have a friend who was taken out of schools each time she was bullied and also thinks it was not the right thing to do.
But, when I was bullied and my mum took me out, not because of the bullying, but because of finances, it was the best thing she could have done. I nearly died that year from a suicide attempt. My family had no idea why. I was only 12.
It is a tough decision either way.
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Just telling someone to ‘toughen up’ does not make them toughen up …. she needs to be shown HOW to toughen up, it doesn’t always come instinctively.
No points for Father on this one, I’m afraid…
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Ooh, I’m completely torn on this one. When I was that little girl it was all that I wanted to have my parents take me out. But, I think because they didn’t, that I’m a better person for it now because I did learn to deal with it. Difficult.
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Teach her to deal with it. She doesn’t have the ‘type of personality to withstand such kids’, she needs to learn how to deal with the personality she’s got, otherwise this is the tip of the iceburg.
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So exactly *how* to you do think she should *deal* with it? This vague strategy can be quite harmful in the wrong circumstance.
What happens when it doesn’t work? You feel like even more of a failure.
What if it is not her personality that is the issue and the other girls? How does your advice stack up then?
Giving people and kids a range of solutions and support helps them become more effective and resilient. Ignoring the problem does not help.
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I’d have had my daughter’s back. That’s part of being someone who loves her unconditionally. Whether that meant jumping up and down about the behaviour of the other girls, or taking her out, I would have taught her that some things can be resolved, not just endured. She needed to be empowered, not ignored.
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