Three babies. All of them died at home having never seen the inside of a hospital.
And they could have been saved.
Today, the South Australian Coroner has found that it was a ‘matter of certainty’ that three newborns would have lived if their mothers had elected to undergo a caesarian … or even if they’d just been born in a hospital.
Neither of these things happened, however, because in each of the three cases the baby’s mother chose to give birth at home with the assistance of a midwife.
There’s another common denominator: all three births were presided over by a former midwife (now homebirth advocate) Lisa Barrett. She was a registered midwife at the time of the births.
“Ms Barrett told the coroner that she had given up her midwifery registration and had elected to act only as a birth advocate because of a new regulatory framework which discouraged midwives from taking on some women, essentially leaving them unsupported.
Mr [Anthony] Schapel said he rejected those assertions and found she gave up her registration because, in order to be covered by insurance, she would need to follow the safety guidelines and that would hinder her from taking on high-risk home births.
The coroner said Ms Barrett was also wrong in some of her opinions regarding the likely outcome had a caesarean section been performed in one of the births and had been “completely oblivious” to the deterioration in the condition of one of the unborn babies.”
The Coroner didn’t mince his words. He meant them to be heard and heard clearly: “In other words, it is said that these deaths could and should have been prevented.”
The deaths of babies are not the only dangers of a birth that takes place at home.
Earlier this year home birth campaigner Caroline Lovell died during a home birth. She was 36.
Fact: birth is risky. It’s natural, but it’s risky.
The Coroner, Anthony Schapel, has gone further and recommended widespread reform and changes to prevent more senseless tragedy. The Adelaide Advertiser reported:
“In his findings, Mr Schapel said the practice of midwifery should only be carried out by registered midwives.”It ought to be regarded as an offence, punishable by law, for midwives to practice midwifery without registration with the Nursing and Midwifery Board of Australia,” he said.
He also urged the minister to introduce new legislation imposing a duty on any person providing a health service to report to the Department of Health the intention of any person to undergo a homebirth known to have an increased risk of complication.
Tate Spencer-Koch became stuck during delivery and was born unresponsive while Jahli Jean Hobbs was in the breech position, meaning her legs would be delivered first.
The parents of both babies had employed Ms Barrett as a midwife to attend the homebirth after undergoing emergency caesarean sections in the delivery of their first children.”
So let’s break this down.
- Three babies who could have lived, would have lived, had they been born in a hospital.
- Three women who knew their births would be high-risk but insisted on home births anyway.
- A midwife who could not and was unable to provide the same level of medical support as a hospital.
- Three mothers who lost their children because they wanted a ‘lifestyle’ birth.
No criminal charges have been recommended against Ms Barrett.
Still pending are the coronial findings after an investigation into the death of Roisin Fraser – the daughter of free birth and homebirth advocate Janet Fraser. Free birthing is also done at home but even more high risk because it is done without ANY medically trained supervision or support. Not even a midwife is in attendance.
Janet Fraser’s birth (her third) was also known to be high risk due to her second pregnancy ending in an emergency caesarean. She claims her daughter was stillborn at home but there is evidence to suggest the baby died during the birth process due to a lack of medical support.
If you have had or ever considered a homebirth, has the Coroner’s damning findings changed your mind?







Comments
913 Comments so far
i had a homebirth with no 3 – after two hospital births, uncomplicated ones, and good maternal health with a baby in perfect position. a vastly experienced, (she now runs the birthing unit at a major hospital), fully registered midwife attended, with a major hospital ten minutes away. she told me if i needed to go to hospital, ii was not to argue, a each baby took whatever it needed to get born, and the baby was the outcome, not the birth. adored her, and ms 17 is amazing:)
atfer losing five babies early or mid term, no 4 was at a hospital, as she was breech, and ended up emergency caesarian. the small lad, a now healthy nearly 9, was a very emergency c section, dying before resusciation, and with me nearly doing the same. he was almost transverse, but putting enormous pressure on the existing scar, meaning i was close to a fatal rupture.. my instinct something was wrong in the last couple of weeks took me to the hospital, they kept me overnight, and decided to c section, stat in the morning.
i would never have considered a home birth with the last two, with even a slight risk of complication making it not worth it – and good thing, as it turned out. i think the reasons for home birth can be very good, but they can also be inane, insane, and should not be attempted. free birthing horrifies me. we need some mechanism for that decision. however, here we veer into territory familiar to anti abortion campaigners (and i am hugely pro choice), the right of the mother vs the baby. how do we ‘force’ a hospital birth? deny another woman choice, even if it is putting her baby at risk? who decides? do we prosecute at risk women who choose it anyway? or what if they accidentally have a home birth, as a friend of mine had?
tricky.
but having lost children during pegnancy, i would not wish taht pain on anyone:(
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Mamamia, your hypocrisy almost burns my eyeballs. Merely hours ago you were slamming those who have spoken out against Chrissie Swan, reminding readers that no one is a perfect parent, that other peoples choices are their own.
Unless you know the intimate situation of the people involved in these stories, who are any of you to throw stones?
A baby’s death – any baby’s death – is unthinkably tragic. Do you really, honestly, truly believe that the people involved in this story don’t care about that? Do you really, honestly, truly believe that someone would willingly risk the life of their baby just because they want some kind of “lifestyle” choice?
Far more babies die every single day through artificial feeding, through negligent parenting, through hospital negligence than through homebirth.
This article couldn’t be less of an assertion of the “facts” if you tried.
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But they are facts! The coroner found the the deaths of the three babies would have been prevented if they were born in hospital. Those are the facts.
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You are right they are the facts but perhaps it is a little biased as the facts of babies dying in hospitals are not represented. This happens too and sometimes through negligence.
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I dispute your use of the word ‘would’. These deaths SHOULD have been prevented, COULD have been prevented but we don’t know that they WOULD have been prevented.
And sometimes, even with the very best of medical care in a big shiny hospital with a dream-run pregnancy things can and do go terribly wrong. There are no guarantees. I know from first-hand experience.
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My mistake. But the point is the deaths were avoidable.
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Were they? That is the coroner’s finding, not immutable fact. Even if they were, this doesn’t remove the fact that babies die in hospital too. Should we blame hospital birth for that?
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So the Coroner who has investigated this from start to finish is wrong? Yet another case of people distrusting those with the facts because they don’t suit their argument.
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What is artificial feeding?
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artificial feeding is a cruel term for formula feeding, made to try and make formula mothers feel like crap.
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It’s not. It’s a medical term. You’re assigning blame where there is none.
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I guessed that was the answer, but assumed I must be wrong. I just couldn’t see the connection between formula feeding and babies dying. Seems like a long bow.
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Oh please
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I had two home births. The first with a doctor and midwife present and the second with the same midwife present. I had to be close to a hospital and was monitored throughout. I was 19 and 21 when I had my bubs. I thought the whole process was wonderful and had no complications. I had researched home birth extensively and was determined to do it.
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Do you want some sort of award or medal?
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Gosh, what a rude response to someone sharing their experience. I don’t read anything in Missy’s comment to warrant snarkiness back.
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Perhaps naively I was determined to have a homebirth for my first baby who arrived 10 weeks ago. I’d done a load of research and enjoyed a complication free pregnancy. My husband had not been so enthusiastic and due to a number of factors ( we live in a unit for example) we decided that ultimately it wasn’t the right choice for us first time round. As my husband said, “it’s uncharted territory”…..
I was fortunate to experience an uncomplicated, drug free labour and waterbirth in a major Sydney hospital assisted by a wonderful midwife who had seen us throughout the pregnancy.
After experiencing childbirth for the first time and actually understanding the intensity and exhaustion that comes with it I can honestly say that I was in the right place. Thank goodness I hadn’t decided to ‘chance’ it at home. Just because I was blessed with a straightforward birth this time does not mean that I would try for a homebirth later on.
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If you listen to the homebirth/ncb advocates, your experience puts you in the minority, even though thousands of babies are born in public hospitals with the same facilities you (and I, and others) have described.
Our prenatal yoga teacher kept telling us that your body will only take you so far unless you know that you’re in a safe place to give birth, so often thing REALLY start to happen when you get to the hospital, because you know it’s all good.
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the title of this article is totally misleading. shame on mamamia for posting this. those women were high risk. they shouldn’t have been allowed to have a home birth. the midwife should be arrested. that doesn’t mean though that home birth is more dangerous than a hospital birth.
i had a home birth with my second. labour was only three hours. i wasn’t even 100% sure i was in labour (was just having light cramps) till it was time to push. i would have never made it to the hospital (would have probably given birth in the car, totally unprepared) as we all thought it would be ages before the baby would come.
i spent months preparing for the second birth (hypnobirthing courses, exercise, meditation, reading 10+ books on birthing naturally). my first birth was natural with no complications. i saw my midwife and the back-up doctor regularly during my second pregnancy so that they could assess whether i was, and remained, a good (low-risk) candidate for a homebirth. the back-up hospital was 10 minutes away.
that is how planning a home birth should be done.
i resent being told by anyone that my choice to have a homebirth was reckless. it was the right choice for ME because i was prepared and the doc and midwife gave me the ok.
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sorry i was wrong, the title is NOT misleading. i meant it is alarmist and sensational. i am also quite tired of these topics: breastfeeding vs formula feeding, home birth vs hospital birth, natural parenting/attachment parenting/whateverthef***youwannacallit vs unnatural parenting (or whatever you call it). they’ve all been discussed to death and over analysed and there are pros and cons to each. why can’t we all just let each other be (or be supportive) instead being so damn critical and judgemental and trying to shove our opinions down each others throats.
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We can’t just “let each other be” because we’re all part of society, and there are social compacts which we are party to. Occasionally, where life and health are at risk, particularly those most vulnerable who are unable to speak for themselves, we need to be reminded that there are rights and wrongs, and some of those are absolute. We need to aim to be our best, moral selves, and every now and then something happens, whether it’s a coroner’s judgement as in this case, or a little nudge to our conscience from a loved one, that reminds us, and sets us on the right path again. Judging, while roundly condemned by everyone who utters “each to their own” actually has an important place at societal and individual levels.
There are many pros and cons to all the examples you mention – too many to list sometimes, and it’s overwhelming and we all end up squabbling on internet forums. And while there are also many pros and cons to homebirthing, this particular case is pretty clear cut. Homebirthing was the wrong choice, on every level.
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Following on from Kathy W comments, I completely agree. It is absolutely ridiculous that anyone would try a home birth knowing the risks and complications. We are all older having children now which makes the risk even higher. Travel to Africa and ask the poor women that lose 1 in 6 babies during child birth if they would prefer a hospital or not. We don’t ask men to have open heart surgery at home with no anaesthetic…..for goodness sake’s modern medicine has moved on for a reason. Sometimes I do wonder if the human race is going backwards with our ridiculous actions and views. This is as ridiculous as not immunising. We have options to create a safe environment for our children and we are making decisions that negate that and put them in grave danger. Why? For no reason. Yes I had a massive haemorrhage in an otherwised uncomplicated and perfect pregnancy and my son and I would have died without a c-section and the help of all of the wonderful Drs and nurses at a HOSPITAL! Its not only the actual birthing process, there is a lot of evidence that the care immediately after the baby is born can prevent long term problems and issues for the mother and child. Most mothers (when drunk enough) will tell you horror stories about things never being the same down there but the ones who had good medical care and were fixded up immediately are fine. Overall for the mothers and babies safety and overall wellbeing hospital is the only option. I wish they would make home births illegal before anymore children lose their lives unnecessarily. Thank you Mamamia for making debates like this possible…..
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I am really struggling with the fact that no criminal charges have been recommended against this midwife
Who knows what the conversations were that took place between this midwife and the mothers but important to note one of the births was a multiple birth and automatically deemed a high risk in a hospital setting – now this baby and 2 others are dead and the midwife is free to live her life – is this fair?
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I’m going to be flamed for this but here goes.
Who on earth decided that childbirth should become such a spiritual/transcedental experience anyway? Ask women 100 years ago if they cared about how/where they gave birth and all they would say is they would love to survive the birth without contracting ‘child bed fever’ and as a plus – see their baby survive past five years of age.
Birth has become such an industry. It’s almost a competition. ‘I had a home birth so I’m more in touch with my baby and my body than you’ versus ‘you went to hospital and had an epidural = fail’. It’s all such first world bollocks
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What a perfect response!
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Not flaming, but you are being pretty patronising to pretty much every childbearing woman everywhere, to suggest that wanting to have a say in the place where you labour is ‘first world bollocks’. Women are more than just our reproductive function.
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Patronising?
No.
Just curious – when did birth go from being a way for a baby to be born (duh!) to a big spiritual song and dance involving ‘choices’.
As I said – 100 years ago women were dying from simple infections and babies were lucky to live past five years old. Now it’s all who ‘won’ because they had no drugs or had their baby at home.
‘every child bearing woman everywhere’ – your words. Well, I’m sure the woman giving birth in Dharavi would beg to differ – and be grateful for a hospital.
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Thankyou for this. I had an emergency caesar in which my baby almost died and I had a substantial haemmorage. If we were at home I am pretty sure both of us would have died. We could have died in hospital too but the odds were much better.
In the first year I felt very inadequate when the other new mothers were saying how proud they were of having a natural birth, which of course is an achievement and I don’t want to say it isn’t, but I think going on and on about it with disregard for your audience is unfair. I got a lot of “oh poor you” looks, insensitive comments and even suggestions about how I could do it naturally “next time” if I just “get a doula/ eat more chilli/ meditate/ hire that balloon thing you put up your vagina to stretch it.”
All this at a time I was completely aware of how lucky I was to have a baby in my arms at all. A few of my friends have lost their babies and its a heartache I can never imagine. I’m very bloody lucky she’s here, let’s not split hairs about HOW she was delivered. The friends I have who lost their babies could care less how they were delivered if only they were still with us.
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It’s disgraceful that you were made to feel bad because your baby arrived via c-section. I say check back with those mothers in a few years and see how smug they are!
Keep enjoying your precious gift I say and forget what others say.
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Mish- I’m totally with you. My first time around was awful, emergency c section at 31 weeks due to premmie labour and footling breech position. Totally awful experience for both me and my husband but we had the best of care and will forever be grateful for the fantastic care that our whole family was given. Number two was a “natural” birth ( I hate that term also because it implies that my emergency c section was totally “unnatural”! ) with no issues what so ever. Heaps of people told me I was so lucky to be able to have an “authentic birthing experience” but you know what? I’m just happy that we have two healthy kids!
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I don’t say natural birth, I say vaginal. Natural is too loaded these days.
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Oh Mish, i’m so sorry that you had to experience those opinions from people who obviously had no idea. the whole ‘I must give you my opinion regardless if you want it or not’ thinking really shits me.
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the ‘big spiritual song and dance’ and ‘competition’ is the patronising part. Your assumptions about what mothers are looking for in a birth place and caregiver are mindnumbing.
You think it’s not about choice? Tell that to your ‘woman giving birth in Dharavi’. She certainly deserves to have that option available, and it’s shameful if she doesn’t. But nobody should force her to go there.
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What assumptions? I’m not assuming anything – I’m quizzically scratching my head and – for the third time – I am CURIOUS as to when birth went from being about the safety of the mother and baby to this whole other industry?
Do you even know where Dharavi is? Well, what about Sub-Saharan Africa where infant mortality currently stands at 40 percent. Hence my point about ‘choices’ being first world bollocks.
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the way a woman brings her baby into the world will affect them both for the rest of their lives.
during my third pregnancy, I received one to one care from an awesome midwife who got to know me and my family. she became our friend. under the obstetric model of care, I would see the doctor for maybe 10 minutes per appointment and I was treated like a number, not a person. I felt like we meant nothing to this stranger who was meant to be involved with us during such an intimate moment.
And yes, some women do feel a heightened bond with their baby after a homebirth. the release of oxytocin during the birth process enhances bonding and decreases the chances of PND. interventions and pain relief during labour and birth interfere with the release of oxytocin.
But birth is not a competition! the government, the medical profession and society will support a woman who chooses a surgical birth. Women who birth at home are stereotyped as hairy legged, dread locked hippies.
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Are you suggesting oxytocin is the exclusive domain of homebirthers? That somehow having a baby in hpsoital hinders the bonding process?
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Well said, it is first world urban middle class women that love to have “birthing experiences” especially in their living rooms with blow up plastic pools. Then they can go around telling everyone about how wonderful they are..well here is a trophy and an organic gluten free cookie for your efforts
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Babe, you put it way better than I could. Right on.
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Exactly!
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It’s official. Mamamia’s distorted opinion on home birthing is completely irresponsible.
I feel for the parents who lost their babies. I believe that midwife should definitely be held accountable, but condemning home birthing as an option is just ridiculous.
Rick from Mamamia, you are in no position to give your uninformed opinion, as you will never be pregnant yourself nor have your loved one give birth. That’s just fact.
Yes babies are the #1 priority, and choosing a home birth doesn’t mean the parents are being selfish. Choosing to home birth is not a decision taken lightly. For those who prefer hospital birth, that’s fantastic but I doubt alot of thought went into it, other than choosing a private suite based on colour theme. So for all those home birth haters out there, why don’t you investigate how much research, discussion and contemplation goes into choosing this form of delivery before you post here with your self-righteous holier than thou rantings.
It’s about choice. Informed choice.
Unfortunately there will be some idiotic pregnant women out there that still want to go the HB route even though they have been advised not to, so this is where the midwives need to stay tough and enforce their recommendations. But this does not and should not tarnish the need to have home birthing as an option.
Please educate yourself.
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I will repeat part of my comment from below for those who are having trouble with their reading comprehension skills
……………….MM is just reporting the findings OF THE CORONER.
You know, the person entrusted with hearing ALL THE FACTS OF THE CASE, ALL THE ARGUMENTS FROM BOTH SIDES and then make their recommendations ………
Got it????
Do you understand what MM has done here?
And as for your rude comment to Rick, how dare you imply that he has no capacity to understand what a loved one may go through in child birth, that he has no empathy for a woman giving birth.
If we went by your reasoning no OB/GYN should be allowed to be male, after all what do they know about giving birth???
You don’t need a vagina to show common sense, or have a valid opinion.
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+ 1 Jackson.
Belinda – NZ -have you actually read the Coroner’s report? Another commenter has helpfully provided a link elsewhere.
Perhaps once you read and digest the 146 pages, you will find that MM, Rick, and all of the other media publications are only reporting the facts, not opinions. The facts were ascertained by the CORONER.
A coroner acts in a quasi-judicial function, and makes recommendations to prevent repetition Do you really think they have idiots making these decisions?
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Actually Belinda, a lot of thought went in to which hospital I had my 3 children in, and none of the considerations were “choosing a private suite based on colour theme”.I find that statement very insulting.
I wanted a hospital with a good neonatal unit, I wanted a paediatrician who knew what he was doing, was not Caesar happy, but also not natural birth happy either. As it was, my first child got stuck and needed both vacuum and forceps and was quite distressed, requiring resuscitation. The second went along fine and the 3rd was a huge 9lbs 10. I also went hospital birth because my partner would not have coped with a home birth. All of my labours were natural labours with no drugs required.
I have no issues with women wanting home births, and would not judge them on choosing it for a low risk pregnancy, But snide throw away remarks like yours above don’t give any credit to your arguement.
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Wow Belinda, – NZ
“For those who prefer hospital birth, that’s fantastic but I doubt alot of thought went into it, other than choosing a private suite based on colour theme.”
You got me. I didn’t think it through at all. Wasn’t concerned at all about how my 9pound + babies were going to come out of me safely. I just really loved the wallpaper at my local private hospital.
“Educate yourself” indeed
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And apparently it’s OK for another home birth advocate to list such terrible problems at the hospital like “inedible food” (the HORROR!) and “noisy, inconsiderate visitors to my room mate” (ZOMG!). They be edumacated.
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I agree with you particularly the last part. I feel homebirth is safest when it’s done within close proximity of a hospital too and for this reason (Australia being sparsely populated and serviced) am somewhat dubious about it being done here. I do wish we could get more support for it by the govt and medical field, but I doubt it will happen.
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I think that this is the key problem. The Netherlands, the regular show-pony in this discussion, is very densely populated and so the ability to reach services is different.
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I agree with your point about making an informed choice Belinda, but your manner is so brusque and condescending – I think you’ve managed to insult just about everybody on every side of this debate!
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Suggest you check YOUR facts first before you come on here again.
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I love this: I’m not a mother so I don’t have an opinion. I’m sorry, but giving birth without providing the greatest chance for your child to be born alive is irresponsible. If you care more about your own birth experience than the health of your baby, that is irresponsible.
- Rick from Mamamia.
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Hi Rick from Mamamia,
Considering that you are gay and male, you are absolutely the best person to choose the colour of the suite for my next child. If I’m lucky enough to have another, that is… I would like a pink suite to hang out in while my child is rescusitated at the same time I am bleeding to death.
As happened in the birth of my daughter. I had private insurance, no idea I could pick the colour of the room while this happened! Incidentally I had no idea what colour my own hair was when my daughter nearly died, let alone the decor.
Belinda-NZ… honestly I have never heard of anyone choosing the colour of their suite. Unless you are Beyonce maybe? Enforcing stereotypes about anyone (i.e: being male, choosing to birth in a hospital, and furthermore private hospitals) does not help the homebirthing cause.
Give some positive experiences of homebirth please… maybe that might be more helpful?
I completely researched everything. I had the hypnobirthing tracks and the TENS machine and everything else. But when it all fell apart I was glad to be within arms reach of someone who could save me and my baby. Plain and simple. She’s here. If I was at home we may not have been so lucky. I’d love to hear stories where its worked out in an emergency situation, please tell!
P.s: I’m not with my daughter’s Dad and was not at the time of birth but I can assure you he was very much a part of the birthing process as he is with her life. Don’t exclude men, its taken too long to get them involved!! Men cannot get pregnant (to my knowledge!) but it doesn’t mean they are clueless or don’t want to be a part of it. Telling them they “have no opinion” is setting up a bunch of potential brilliant fathers/ uncles/ grandfathers etc to be insecure about it. Please don’t.
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“For those who prefer hospital birth, that’s fantastic but I doubt alot of thought went into it, other than choosing a private suite based on colour theme”
Wow. That’s quite the sweeping statement.
I have chosen public hospital for all my children and colour schemes have nothing to do with it. My gestational diabetes, extremely low blood pressure and blood-clotting disorder dictated my choices.
Call me selfish, but I just kind of wanted to be alive and for my kids to have their mum.
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Actually I was given no choice about the hospital – I got the major hospital I was closest too.
So kudos to Dandenong Hospital for being freaking awesome during my child’s birth! The midwives there kept be totally at ease and relaxing, even when I’d had enough. And thanks for all the help with the breastfeeding – including the weeks afterwards when I went back for help.
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Wow. How rude. I guess all of us mothers who choose hospitals to give birth just aren’t very clever then. Our choice obviously isn’t informed, researched or educated. Only home birthing leftist hippies are educated enough and the only right choice is your choice then.
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Excuse me? Educate ourselves? That’s ironic coming from someone who thinks that those who choose to have hospital births haven’t put much thought into it “other than choosing a private suite based on colour theme.” Don’t be so simplisitic and idiotic. We also choose the suite based on the available emergency care to save our baby’s lives. If you want to present a debate, be reasonable.
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If I had a do-over, I think I would opt for a home birth. I live in the Netherlands which has one of the highest home birth rates in the western world (and incidentally they highest infant mortality rate in Europe). BUT, and this is a big but, I live ten minutes from my closest hospital. One of the biggest defences of home births in the Netherlands is that you should always be within 15 minutes of a hospital and that it would take the same amount of time to get to a hospital in case of emergency as it would for a theatre and team to be prep’d. If you’re at home, your midwife would call in advance and the team would be ready by the time you arrived.
I had no option but to give birth in a hospital because I had had a LLETZ procedure while pregnant and ultimately I wanted to have pain relief available if I needed it (which I did in the end). I was back home within three hours of giving birth as well.
If I had a healthy, low risk pregnancy I would definitely try to do it at home, in a birthing pool. But, I would also be realistic and never consider a home birth if my pregnancy was high risk. That’s what I find to be irresponsible (understatement of the year) about these women who put themselves before their children, which is exactly what it seems they did.
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Stuff the advocates forget to mention when they talk about the Netherlands and their homebirthing, Neriss.
Good to see you around!
Hope you’re all doing great!
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Funny to see your photo next to the user name anon!!!
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I thought I was logged in, but my browser thought otherwise… Because I have my email address linked to Gravatar, when I click Notify Me and entered my email address, the picture pops up still.
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Why would anyone want to have a baby at home?
Can someone explain? (seriously)
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The environment is much more relaxed, there aren’t people traipsing in and out of your room the entire time, you can be more mobile to work through the pain. There are a couple of reasons.
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I don’t think there’s anything stopping you moving round at the hospital though.
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You’re right of course. A bit difficult to nip to the shops though
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There was for me.
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What?
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I chose homebirth for my third baby, after a bad experience during my hospital stay with my second birth. I was ignored by the hospital staff when I asked for assistance. The food was not edible. The bathroom was not clean. My baby and I were unable to sleep due to constant interruptions and inconsiderate room mate and her visitors. We had minor issues establishing breastfeeding, but the staff didn’t care- as long as I tried to get baby to feed, they were ok with that.
After my first homebirth- my midwife visited regularly, and ensured we were going well. Each visit lasted as long as we needed- 2 hours was usual. We were able to rest without interruptions (other than caring for the baby).
There was no question in my mind, when I fell pregnant again, that we would birth at home instead of birthing in hospital.
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I think what you’re talking about is more to do with your concerns after the birth, rather than for the birth itself. Most hospitals allow women to go home within 24 hours of birth now, followed up by midwifery support in the home, much like you describe. I haven’t personally used that option but I don’t think talking about bad food and interruptions from professionals as a reason to risk your baby’s birth at home. Surely there must have been a more valid, birth-focussed reason???
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I have a panic attack every time I set foot in a hospital.
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Perhaps some of you should read this article from Women and Birth, the Journal of the Australia College of Midwives, that was published recently regarding this very polarised debate. You might be a bit enlightened, but then some of you don’t like the evidence getting in the way of a good sensational story! This article written by an extremely well-published professor of midwifery examines some of the issues about the controversy of homebirth and the issues around safety and caesarean sections. http://www.womenandbirth.org/article/S1871-5192%2812%2900018-2/fulltext
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Great article with excellent principles.
1. Health of mother and baby a priorty.
2. Informed decision pivotal.
3. Regularly review information (and methods to communicate it) to ensure it is up-to-date and effective.
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Hi Anon – I take exception to your use of the word “sensational”. We have reported the coronial findings after 3 babies in south Australia died needlessly as a direct result of home births. These are facts.
Even if you don’t like them.
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But you never published why these women choose to birth outside of a fragmented medicalised maternity care system here in Australia.
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Also agree that this is an excellent article. I particularly liked this line:
“When a woman chooses to have a homebirth with risk factors present, the question we often ask is ‘what is wrong with her’ but why are we not asking ‘what is wrong with a maternity care system that provides such limited options and inspires such fear that she would take on the added risk’?”
Mamamia – I do like most of your articles, but sometimes you get fixated on one view that you do not paint the full picture. In most cases you do give us articles that show the varried opinions, but on this particular case you seem to only want to say that home birthing is wrong. End of story.
The article provided does go a little deeper and also looks at the health profession for some answers too. Who knows, if giving birth wasn’t such a highly strung affair (and my mum is a midwife and has told me of stories where doctors had intervened when it was not needed), perhaps home birthing would decrease.
I for one love the idea of birthing wards staffed by midwives, but should interevention be neccessary, you’re rolled across the hall to the labour ward with the doctors and their machines.
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It is, in no small part, homebirth advocates and homebirth midwives who are inspiring fear of hospital births in mothers.
They’ve clearly lost the safety argument so they have to push the “it will harm your breastfeeding relationship”/”damage your bonding with your baby”/you will have the dreaded “unnecessary interventions” — otherwise why on earth would anyone seek out a homebirth?
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All these women had going birth in a hospital already so the question does need to be asked on what happened there to turn them off?
I do agree with you though that there are those who advocate against hospital births and use fear as a tactic and clearly this is wrong. But we can’t deny the growing number of interventions that have occurrd in the last 10 years also (ref above article).
What I don’t like about this article, and others like it, is we’re talking about women in high risk situations who have made a poor choice then omitting the stories of low risk successful home births therefore lumping all home births into the same category. It’s not true, and maybe not intentional but it’s not showcasing the whole story.
Personally, I wouldn’t have a home birth.
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I agree with Anouk to an extent regarding homebirths being reckless. With the most important (and possibly the riskiest) event in you and your child’s lifetime, wouldn’t you choose the lowest risk option?
The mothers of those poor, deceased babies will have to live with the realisation that they are ultimately responsible for the deaths of their children. Their decisions. Their actions. Their responsibility. The lifelong burden of that pain would be tremendous.
I personally believe in calculated risk and once I evaluated all the options I chose to have hospital births, the second with midwives only and no drugs. The first had all the intervention under the sun and did not go according to plan at all despite being a low-risk birth!
Anyway, after the second birth, I then chose to go to the comfort of my own home the very next day once things were checked off on bubs and myself. Legally, you need to stay in hospital for four hours for monitoring before being allowed to go home in a hospital birth. You can opt for midwives only and be home in four hours, but still have access to full medical facilities and services should something go wrong. So why do homebirthers risk their lives and the lives of their children? What’s wrong with staying in hospital for 4 measly hours.
Don’t like doctors, use a midwifery group.
Don’t like hospitals, suck it up. You would be thankful if they saved your life or that of your child.
Want the comfort of your own home? You can be back in 4 hours with a healhy baby in your arms.
Homebirthing is your lifestyle choice? But is it the right choice for you and your baby? Really think about it and the answer is likely ‘no’ even if you have a low-risk pregnancy.
You want soothing music and a water birth in a darkened room to welcome baby into the world? They do this in a birthing suite with midwives at major Australian hospitals!
And seriously, who’s birth goes according to their birth plan each and every pregnancy. I’d say the percentage is very, very small. Why risk being minutes away from medical facilities…some of those decisions have to be made in split seconds. Ever heard of an emergency c-section? Need one in a birthing suite with midwives only…..they rush you down a corridor to be greeted by doctors…sweet!
Homebirthing is fine if you are willing to accept the consequences such as being responsible for the death of your baby or even your own death. Yes, death could also happen in hospital, but the risk is minimised.
I guess the most important thing to remember is that birthing is only the beginning of a child’s life….. a very short event in the scheme of things. It’s parenting them for the rest of their lives which is the biggest challenge!
So choose the least riskiest option that is right for you so you can get stuck into raising baby into the best adult he/she can be!
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Great comment fifi-lulu, really well said
(I particularly liked the ‘don’t like hospitals, suck it up’ line – GOLD!
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My sister-in-law is absolutely petrified of hospitals, but you know what? She sucked it up, had a perfectly healthy baby girl in a birthing suite (midwives only) and left 4 hours later.
When they got home, they had to call y MIL to ask how to bathe a baby because they didn’t stay long enough to find out!
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I find the tone of this article very judgmental- not exactly a “news” style.
Really don’t think it helps the mothers who lost their babies or the mid wife who was their when they died.
Home birth is not always this risky and people do die in hospital as well.
Did these women make the wrong decision? Obviously yes but the tone of the article just gets people defensive and does nothing to open a discussion or help make educated decisions.
I am not convinced home birth is a great idea but calling it a lifestyle choice is a bit harsh. Just women making choice which I thought a feminist site would support.
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It horrendous for me to hear some women speak of “birth rape” I would like to see those women go to a Rape Crisis Centre and say that they have been “raped” to women who have actually been brutally raped. After that go to Ethiopia where women will travel hundreds of miles to have their babies in hospital rather than have them at home. Then speak to the women who have been ostracised by their society for getting fistulas from home births and tell them they are better off having stayed at home rather than having access to medical care
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This argument has been raised here before by those who support the term “birth rape” that anyone forcibly inserting anything into your vagina is rape….which is abhorrently incorrect and not supported by ANY legal definition.
I recall several lawyers coming on here and responding to those allegations by stating something like “actually,medical intervention is specifically excluded from the definition of rape” (as in, it is clearly stated in the legislation), but nope, those that use that term still want to use it. Sigh.
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Perhaps after you have spent some time with women who do consider that they have suffered from “birth rape” you might speak differently. There are cases where women have been forcibly held down by two staff to have a vaginal examination in labour while screaming for them to stop. That’s pretty close to rape in my book, just not considered legally so. While you might consider the word “rape” to be inappropriate in the case of birth, those who have suffered it can end up with the same psychological and physical trauma as those who have been sexually assaulted. So, as you say, legally it isn’t rape, but remember once upon a time non-consensual sex between a husband and wife wasn’t considered rape either…
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disagree! I do not think that is rape. They are trying to help that woman and her baby not harm her. What about mentally ill people who are held against their will for their and others safety, is that rape too? Those doctors/midwives are trying to deliver a safe and healthy baby in the best way they can, they did not take that job so they can be accused of “raping someone”.
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Sorry J, but now you are comparing a woman in labour to someone without the mental capacity to advocate for themselves. A VE isn’t always necessary (sometimes it is) but other clinical skills can be used to assess the progress of a woman in labour (funnily enough most midwives can do this but it’s so much easier for so many doctors to do a VE instead). Not only that, if a woman clearly and expressly does not give her consent, in fact screams for the doctor not not insert his hand in her vagina and screams for him to take it out, then her wishes (if she is of sufficient mental capacity) should be followed. I have no doubt the doctor thought he was doing no harm and I did not insinuate that it was their intention to “rape” her but women’s rights in childbirth have been gradually eroded. Let’s not forget that it was “for their own good” that the stolen generation were taken from their families to be raised by others and we still drag indigenous women from their communities for “sit down” in city hostels for weeks to have their babies on their own in strange city hospitals with no family or support. But I’m sure they are all grateful for the maternity care enforced on them for their own good!
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so are you saying that the doctors purposely do a VE because they are getting some sort of enjoyment out of it. Obviously the doctor does feel it is necessary or they wouldn’t be doing it. As a daughter of an obstetrician I find that offensive beyond belief. I do not agree that the word “rape” should be used to describe a procedure which is done to help deliver a healthy baby.
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Emotional trauma can benefit greatly from therapy. Death cannot.
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I’ve heard you say this before regarding homebirths Mia, and I have to say I find it really callous. The mental health and wellbeing of mothers is just as important as the wellbeing of their children, it’s not up to you to make this call on behalf of other women.
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Are you saying that the mother’s mental well being is more important than the health of the baby then?
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sorry I don’t think I answered this properly and I can’t edit comment above. I would like it to say that do you think the mental wellbeing is more important than having a healthy baby who is alive. I totally agree with Mia, your mental wellbeing can be fixed but if your baby dies because you won’t let a doctor do his job how will your wellbeing be then?
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Your incorrect. This is quite true that therapy can heal a traumatised mother but can’t bring back a dead baby.
I had an extremely traumatic birth. I suffered traumatic flashbacks until I sought help. I had a hard time functioning properly. I was living my own bubble of terror, shame, and unresolved feelings stemming from my lack of knowledge about what had ACTUALLY happened. I suffered Post-Natal Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder.
Here’s the thing. Not once did I wish that I had died (which what was going to happen without the urgent intervention which was more or less inflicted upon me). With good therapy I was able to find within myself a place where I accepted that my choices were taken away from from me, but for a good reason. Now days I even entertain the idea that I could have another child.
I have come to the conclusion that part of the birth process is to suffer some sort of trauma. Don’t misunderstand me! It’s not that it should happen, but that it is a part of the process of becoming a parent. It is the process by which we go to the next level in our emotional maturity, which is in turn a skill which we will both draw on for ourselves in the process of parenting, and also to pass on to our children to enable them to become adults with a great depth of emotional integrity. Instead of panicking about creating a perfect birthing experience we should be far more focused on community based post-natal care and on reducing the stigma and increasing awareness of PNPTSD and PND.
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no J I’m not saying one is more important than the other. Mia is, though. But the impacts of maternal mental health on a family are well known. Postnatal depression is a leading cause of maternal death in developed countries – babies suffer and even die as a result of it, too. there needs to be a balance, and putting women in a position where they feel they have to choose between their baby’s life and their own is no way to achieve it.
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Anon Today, the previous definition not acknowledging rape between spouses is not comparable to the term you call “birth rape”. There is no circumstance where a husband raping a wife is done to save the life of the wife or a child or could be said to be medically necessary.
If these women were held down by the ward attendants so the doctor could perform a vaginal examination, despite her protests, it must have been medically necessary, to save the life of either the women, or the child. I find it very hard to believe that any doctor would have gone to such measures with a patient screaming at them if it was not necessary. That is why it does not, and will never meet the definition of rape, and for you to compare to husbands raping wives, is very offensive.
However, if the actions of the doctor were not medically necessary, than the patient has a right of recourse against the doctor in a complaint to the Health Practitioners Tribunal, or alternatively, by bringing a medical negligence suit.
Again, the legal definition of rape specifically excludes medical intervention. It would be a difficult case to prove “rape” when there was necessary medical intervention to save or protect life.
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I think the term birth rape is offensive and the women who use it to describe their experience are suffering delusions and need to get over them selves. Last time I checked a pap smear was just a pap smear not gyno rape.
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You don’t get to decide what is a rape and what is not.
Whilst I generally find the term birth-rape distasteful and lots of accounts I have read of birth-rape strike me as being from people with extremely unrealistic expectations of what birth and the attendant care actually involves, I have also read of some fairly hellish experiences that would likely be considered violations by most people.
Just don’t presume to know what rape is for anybody else.
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You and the women who say they were “birth raped” don’t get to decide that either. Just because they say it doesn’t make it a fact. I don’t see any police going and charging doctors with “birth rape”, its just a word they have decided to use. It is certainly as much our right to argue that it is not the right word to use as it is their right to argue it is. I do not agree it is rape and never will. I feel it takes away from people who actually were raped.
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Well….the dentist sticks instruments in my mouth and I beg him to stop. Is that the same?
I mean HONESTLY – rape is criminal offence about power. A doctor who is trying to help is hardly in the same league.
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Pretty sure that is Kathy W. Seems like everything we don’t want to happen is rape now. My DVD player is being constantly raped by my 2 year old and I feel traumatised everytime I go to play something and find small toys inside. I’ve told her “no” but she does it anyway.
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That is disgusting.
How do you think a victim of actual, real rape will feel reading this shit?
Not funny.
You are sick.
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Gross.
Rape jokes are not funny.
You are not funny.
Your stupid little winky face is Not Funny.
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What winky face?
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Who gets to decide what is rape Anon? surely if someone can use it then we all can for anything. If it is by definition somebody doing something to you that you do not want to happen even if it is for your own good then isn’t it rape also?
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The winky face that has been deleted.
Actually the whole post has been rewritten.
Trust me, it was gross. A gross rape joke.
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Hey, leave me out of it.
I didn’t decide what was rape.
Why are you being so full on to a person who is just trying to put forward a moderate opinion based on actual information?
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No but you argued in the defense of people using that word so I gave you MY opinion as well. If you don’t like criticism of your “opinion” then maybe don’t comment. You said we don’t get to say what is rape but as far as I’m concerned a doctor doing an examination is NOT rape. A woman may feel violated because she did not want this to happen but it is not rape. That doctor did not do that procedure for his own enjoyment, he did it because he felt it was necessary to do in the best interests of a woman and her baby. Those are my facts and I’m sticking to them
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I don’t have issues with differing opinions. That would make me a bit of a silly for going online in a public forum wouldn’t it? So please don’t confuse the issue or try to make me look daft with disingenuous accusations. It might sometimes be an effective tactic for you but it is not nice!
I do have issues with you simplifying the issue down to ‘unwanted examinations’.
And anyway if someone sticks anything in your vagina whilst you say ‘No’ Is committing rape. The enjoyment of the rapist is not part of that definition so stop making gross comments about the doctor “enjoying it”.
And not all doctors are male!
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You don’t have an issue with it yet you tell me to be quiet when I gave my opinion. Gee that is very NICE of you also. You are the one calling it rape so please tell me how it is rape then? I think it is perfectly clear that the doctor doesn’t get enjoyment out of it and that is my point, what is it exactly the doctor is getting out of it then? Birth is not flowers and puppies so woman should stop expecting it to be. Those woman who are calling it rape are doing so because they had unrealistic expectations of what birth is. It is not pretty and it is a means to an end. A person who is raped is done so because the other person forces themselves on them against their will to harm then not to deliver their baby. Whilst they may have felt violated by a VE (don’t we all?) that does not make it rape.
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Did You Read my initial post??
I was the one who mentioned unrealistic expectations regarding birth and treatment.
My god, I feel like I’ve entered a parallel universe.
Oh and I Clearly did tell you how it was rape.
Someone sticking things into the vagina of a person who says “no, don’t shove shit into my vagina”
Please feel free to actually read my comments properly and also stop making gross rape ‘jokes’.
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None of my comments have been jokes. Pretty sure you are the one calling them that. I don’t find rape funny yet I do find people calling something rape that is clearly not outrageous, about as outrageous as my comment which is what that was supposed to mean, if you can call a VE by a doctor trying to deliver your baby rape where do you draw the line? The replies to your comment was ONLY to do with the fact that you thought that woman being examined was a violation. Also hard to know which are your comments at times as you are anon along with most of the comments on here.
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I had a low risk third pregnancy, following my first two low risk pregnancies & births.There was no reason to think anything out of the ordinary would happen at the third birth. But it did. My placenta got stuck
and I started haemeorraging. I ended up losing half my blood volume and needed a transfusion. Had I given birth at home I would have most likely bled out. As I said, I had already given birth twice, with no issues and problems, and there was nothing to indicate that this birth was going to be different. But it was.
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I could have easily had two homebirths but I would never choose that option. I had a 6hr & 1hr birth – both completely drug free & birthed in the water at a birth centre with delivery suite next door. I need to be safe in the knowledge that help was close at hand in case of any complications. I have two healthy births and I am grateful.
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I know families who’ve chosen homebirth, and I know they were all very well informed on the risks of both hospital and home births. The coroner said “The final decision on the way expectant parents wish to deliver their child is a decision for them, but the community must ensure that each expectant parent is fully informed and has the best possible healthcare system to support them”. I think it’s exceedingly rare for people to chose homebirth without a lot of consideration. The coroner is not suggesting women be forced to give birth in hospital, so why are so many people making comments here assuming they have the right to dictate what medical care other people should or shouldn’t consent to? And who is to say that ANY of these women would have consented to a caesarean even if they had been in hospital?
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but if the babies life is at risk does the mother have to actually give consent in the end? No doctor and team are going to stand by and let a baby die because the mother is too stubborn to have a caesarean. Why would someone turn down a caesarean if it meant it saved the life of their baby or the mother? I can’t think of one good reason for this, maybe you would like to enlighten me?
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Yes, she still has to. As long as she’s conscious and competent to, the mother still has the final say when it comes down to it. You would have to be unconscious, or have a court decision etc before you could operate without permission (or be a child).
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Excellent point Mel.
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I have had 2 homebirths. amazing, wonderful experiences.
according to 3 obstetricians, I was NOT low risk. their reasons- I have large (>4kg) babies, I was borderline for gestational diabetes, and my age (I turned 35 one month before my first homebirth). None of these ‘excuses’ were enough to scare me into hospital birth.
Homebirth isn’t just about candles and whale music. Its about avoiding unnecessary intervention. There are no guarantees in birth or in life.
How can the coroner say, with absolute certainty, that these babies would have survived in a hospital environment?? and what about the risks of c-section, hospital transmitted infections etc.
Homebirth is about the right of the woman to choose where she gives birth. Take away that choice, and women become incubators with no rights.
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“Take away that choice, and women become incubators with no rights.”
Really?
I would have thought you would have to take away a woman’s right to:
a. choose whether to get pregnant or not; and
b. terminate the pregnancy if she so wanted
before society got anywhere near turning women into incubators with no rights.
Your alarmist statement is bogus.
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What about the right of the baby to the best chance of survival?
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Foetuses don’t have rights
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I’m not a high-risk homebirth or freebirth advocate. In fact I’ve read Lisa Barrett’s blog pretty regularly and I think she’s deliberately catering to a very particular homebirth market because she thinks she can appropriately manage the risk when she clearly can’t although her supporters will back her to the hilt. I find Janet Fraser and her ilk frightening and infuriating – the Meryl Dorey of the birthing world.
But choosing to write this article in this tone is not helpful.
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I think it is really weird how some people on here are getting so upset at mamamia for reporting the coroners findings. Why are you blaming mamamia for reporting the facts of cases? Here are some more facts..there are roughly 700 homebirths in Australia per year, there are roughly 300,000 babies born in Australia a year so most of them are in hospitals. Australia has one of the lowest infant and maternal mortality rates in the world which means the hospitals must be doing something right. Yes we may have high intervention rates but this is done to save both the lives of mothers and babies not to “rape” or interfere with a “birth experience”.
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It is absolute selfishness to even consider a home birth in any way, shape or form in this day and age. This is not about what mother, wants, this is about baby arriving safely and ensuring everything is done to make this happen.
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Yep, women are just vessels for babies, who cares what they want? Just because it is their child and their body they think they are entitled to choose how to labor, how incredibly ignorant of them.
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So with that logic it means you must be stupid because you are here reading the article and replying?
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I absolutely do not understand why anyone in their right mind would opt out of what is available in todays world to make a birth as safe as possible,both for mum and the baby:a hospital with all it’s equipment.A doctor.Nurses.
You had a ‘lowrisk and troublefree’ pregnancy?That’s lovely,but that fact is not a guarantee the same will apply for the actual birth.Anything could happen,and i think it’s stupid and reckless to put yourself and your child in danger for no reason whatsoever.
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S’okay. You don’t need to understand.
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Surely a healthy baby is the desired outcome for every mother that has nurtured her baby through 40 weeks of pregnancy. The greatest chance of this outcome is a hospital birth. End of story.
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It makes me so cross the way you write these articles. Homebirthing for LOW RISK women is not dangerous. I wish you’d do a piece on the state run and funded home birth program we have in WA. I was planning a home birth through this program but as I got to the end of my pregnancy, my situation changed and i was not classified as low risk anymore by their very strict guidelines so i had to go to hospital. High-risk women birthing at home outside of the support of the health system does not make all homebirth unsafe.
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Homebirthing, even for low risk women can be dangerous. If you knew anyone LOW RISK who had to be rushed to hospital after an unforseen RISK (as I do) then maybe you would appreciate what the hospital system can offer.
Even those women with low to no risk.
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Thankyou for publishing this! Thankyou for standing up for reason.
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It is really disapointing to see how incapable MM often seems of producing any kind of balanced article. Everything in the widest range of a subject simply gets thrown into one basket – low risk home birth, high risk home birth and free birthing. It is really only showing their ignorance to lump them all together like this. Freebirth/high risk home birth are in a WHOLE other category to low-risk qualified midwife assisted home birth. It really is sucha shame MM cannot show a little more nuance instead of literally throwing the homebirth baby out w the bathwater.
It is also pretty amusing how hysterical Australian media seems to get about home birth, trying to beat it up into this a hugely risky thing. Meanwhile, all through the UK, netherlands, much of Europe etc (gasp, first world!) a huge chunk of the population of birthing mothers are happily, quietly and without controversy birthing at home – safely at home – with full support of doctors, hospitals, govt, midwife etc. In fact it is even encouraged by the govts as the stats show how safe it is (and of course saves money for them). So I guess my conclusion is the general australian fear of homebirth is more cultural than anything as it sure does not reflect the stats. Cmon MM, surely you can do better reporting than this??
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This feels like a witch hunt!
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Good, you need to be hunted and made accountable for your negligent choices.
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Did you even read the above comment?
There are countries that have fully supported, very low-risk homebirth.
The hospitals are too full, so low risk pregnancies have full doctor and hospital support.
These situations cannot be considered on the same level as high risk home births decided upon by some loonies,
Maybe you should be hunted and be taught to read and regard statistics so you don’t write nasty, stupid crap.
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Yes! surely this must be a witch hunt. Those 3 dead babies don’t need to have their story told, its all about the mothers and the birthing experience. Home birth/free birth WHATEVER! put the needs of your baby first and stop being so ignorant and selfish!
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J. you seem to be reeeaaaly dumb.
Try reading and understanding before you react.
Do you get that there are different categories of home birth. some are risky, others are not so much?
No. Your too busy prancing about on that high horse of yours, scattering abuse about.
I’m sure it’s super fun up there, but maybe you can go riding at some other conservative destination with other folk who don’t like facts getting in the way of a fun time!
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No not dumb anon but thanks for that, I guess calling others dumb makes you feel super intelligent.
I don’t care what the risks are high or low, any risk when it comes to my baby is too much. I will not risk my babies life to make myself more comfortable. You can throw words around but what it comes down to is that those babies died because of the bad decision that midwife and their parents made so call me whatever you want you can’t distort those facts with your nonsense.
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At least answer me this simple question:
Do you get that there are different categories of home birth. some are risky, others are not so much?
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I am comfortable with myself, no I don’t need to say you’re daft to feel better.
I am just responding to someone who appears to be very reactive and who won’t answer simple questions.
And who doesn’t seem to have looked at medically supported home-births and the stats that accompany them.
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sure there possibly are different levels iof risk and I do understand that some home births have midwives and medical intervention if necessary and some (free births) do not. But that is as far as my knowledge goes and I have looked into one as I never considered a home birth for either of my deliveries. I had no complications for the first one but still chose a hospital for the second and thankfully I did because lots of things went wrong and I ended up having an emergency caesarean. I don’t think this makes me a failure because it was what was necessary. Maybe if I was at home I could have got to the hospital in time but maybe not and then this would be a tragedy.
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Why on earth do you feel the need to clarify the fact that you a re not a failure?
A sure sign of issues.
I would never consider a home-birth. I’ve had two emergency caesers.
But I can’t keep listening to people rudely pouring shit on those who advocate responsible medically supervised home birth.
It’s not about you, or me.
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Why on earth do you feel the need to tell me you’re not a failure?
Clearly you are bringing a lot of baggage to this discussion.
I wouldn’t have a home-birth.
I have had two emergency caesers..
But, I can’t sit here and watch you heap insults and crap upon women who have made a choice to have a medically supervised home-birth.
It is just hurtful and rude. Especially when you refuse to have a discussion about facts and keep being disparaging no matter what anyone says. Or what statistics would indicate.
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absolutely no issues with either of the births I had thanks Anon. In fact birth to me is such a small part of life that its really a non issue. The most important thing to me was to have a healthy baby. Maybe all the people going on about home births should stop making birth all about themselves and think of it more as a means to deliver a child.
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So why the need to point out that you are not a failure?
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Thank you “me” finally I get a reply with some sort of voice of reason! something anon seems to be skirting around is the fact that we are commenting on 3 babies dying from poor choices and that poor choice was a HOME BIRTH! I do own my comments I said I am not a failure for having a caesarean, I am not asking you to tell me I’m not, I AM SAYING IT!!! if I had decided to have a home birth then I may not have been able to take home my beautiful daughter which is the scariest thing I can imagine. Hospitals may be scary to some people but just think about what you are playing with. Sure you can say some home births are safer than others but I’m sure the women who’s babies died thoughthat their home birth was going to be safe? I don’t think the risk involved however little or big is worth the life of a child.
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Nowhere in my comment do I ask you tell me I am not a failure!!! I stated I do not feel like one at all! I was happy to have any medical intervention needed to deliver to my baby alive. Read the title! 3 babies died so no its not about me or you its about them! they could have been saved if they had been born in a hospital. Argue that fact! oh but I expect you will because you seem to know everything.
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Those babies did die tragically, because they should not have been delivered at home.
An idiot with amazingly poor judgement “killed” those kids.
Home-birth did not kill them.
It’s a silly as talking about a war on ‘terror’!
Why won’t you own your comments?
You wrote that having a caeser doesn’t make you a failure. Why would you need to say that?
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Anonymous, have you read the corners report? It clearly states that if those babies were born in the hospital they could have survived, so yes the fact that they were born at home did lead to their deaths.
Why are you so hostile to J?
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Hi me
Not hostile just becoming depressed by reading the same thing over and over.
All home-births are not the same.
So no, I can’t just make a blanket statement about home-births ‘killing’ innocent children.
I maintain that a twit with no judgement and no discernible skill killed those poor kids.
She was the one who gave the ok to these mums to have the kids at home.
Had she even sent these women to hospital earlier in their troubled labours they may have lived.
Poor judgement can kill.
But this is no reason to lump all home-births together and abuse the women that choose to have a responsible home-birth.
Why is that sooo hard to come to grips with?
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Anonymous, if you haven’t read the coroners report I suggest that you do.
Lisa Barrett has a lot of experience and skill if the field of midwifery, whether you like her or not that is fact.
In the first two cases you would be on the right track about her giving the ok to birth at home.
However in the last case (baby Tully) the mother is equally responsible for her babies death. She was well informed of the risks yet choose to birth at home.
I do understand your frustration at others but remember that everybodies perception on things comes from their own experiences.
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I feel like some people are basing their opinions on the way medical dramas play out on TV. Things can go wrong fast, but they very rarely do. And when they do, it doesn’t always mean you get rushed to an operating theatre. I’ve had two near-death experiences in hospitals, and both times I was stabilised with very basic drugs (drugs I believe midwives carry) and transferred to a larger hospital because the one I was in wasn’t equipped to deal with me. Both times there was about 3 hours between when the situation went catastrophically bad, and when I was operated on. And these were both extremely serious, often fatal situations that were given priority.
The hospital closest to me only takes low-risk births, and often has to transfer women who have serious trouble. A lot of women actually end up being much further away from the hospital they need than they would have been had they been at home (eg. a colleague who gave birth two years ago in this hospital was transferred to another hospital she lives literally 5 minutes walk from. It was an hour and a half between the time she haemorraged in the less equipped suburban hospital and when she reached the larger one).
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Just so that you know, I had what was supposed to be a very safe low risk birth. I was in the OR within 5 minute because I was just that sick. There was no TV cameras, dramatic music, or rapid ‘cut to’ scenes. Just me, so ill that I was signing the forms as the orderlies wheeled me into the OR. There was no reason to have predicted that.
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Call me narrow-minded but just so you can puff your chest out and say you gave birth to your child at home with no drugs to satisfy your inner-hippy and show off to your mates absolutely does not warrant putting your child’s life at risk. I just find the whole thing utterly selfish, pretentious and downright stupid. I’m sure it would be lovely giving birth at home in familiar surroundings and of course no one likes hospitals but you’ll be seeing a whole lot of home when you get that bubba back there – hopefully safe and sound and certainly with a much higher chance of that if you’ve walked out a hospital. I just don’t understand why people would even consider risking it.
I read an article once about a woman who was devastated as she’d wanted to free-birth with all her kids but all had ended in cesarean. She was photographed with her 3 beautiful children and was saying how her body had failed her as she hadn’t gone down the natural route. Both my aunties are childless (one from cancer, one from complications in her uterus) so how this woman thinks her body that has produced 3 gorgeous kids has somehow failed is beyond me. It’s the same case here. For some reason these mothers think they’ve got something to gain/prove by doing it this natural, although exceedingly dangerous, route. I don’t get it.
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I won’t call you narrow minded.
But you are very rude and not very smart.
To call all women who have or aspire to have a home-birth hippies who want to show off is utterly ridiculous.
You are offensive in the extreme.
Egregiously offensive.
Just because you read one article about a free-birthing nutter who has a weird grip on reality doesn’t mean you tar all home-birthers with the same brush.
Utterly illogical.
Rude.
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Personally I think putting your child’s life at unnecessary risk just so you can indulge your birth desires, at the same time disregarding the risks, is not very smart. At all.
In 10 years time no one will care how/where/by what method your child arrived into this world, they’ll just be happy they are here.
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Just want to add that this recommendation is actually a really good one:
“He also urged the minister to introduce new legislation imposing a duty on any person providing a health service to report to the Department of Health the intention of any person to undergo a homebirth known to have an increased risk of complication.”
However, it should actually apply to freebirth as well in my opinion.
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You realise this would just mean women seeking homebirth would be more reluctant to seek any type of medical care, right? How is that safe or desirable?
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But WHY should this make women more reluctant to seek any medical care? Is notifying a Government department of an ‘increased risk’ home birth really that hard/bad? The coroner isn’t proposing stopping these births, only suggesting a notification to the Dept.
Cannot understand why a woman who is recognised to be at high risk of complications would choose to endanger her baby by having a home birth with no medical care, simply to avoid notifying the Dept of Health?
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Np- I don’t agree that would be the outcome at all. Homebirths DO involve medical care and qualified midwives work with hospitals to support homesbirths requiring escalated intervention.
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I feel like this is such an inflammatory headline – when managed properly home birth is as safe as a birth in a hospital. Most Scandinavian countries have home birth as the norm.
Some of my friends have had horrendous experiences in hospitals too – it’s not necessarily the setting but the people who you have around you too …
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Exactly! NZ have three times the amount of home births as Australia, and yet their infant mortality rate is roughly the same as Oz.
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This is (unsurprisingly for Mamamia) one of the most ill-informed and biased pieces of drivel I have ever had the displeasure of reading. If you would like any of us to take you and your attempts at journalism seriously, please present both sides of the argument, and not just your biased, bigoted, ignorant personal point of view.
I have had all my babies in a hospital, and they were ok experiences. Looking back, would I have liked a better experience? Yes, sure. And would I have considered birthing at home? Probably if I knew anything about it.
While I was in hospital giving birth to my second baby 7 years ago now, the woman recovering next to me had lost her baby during delivery (yes, IN THE HOSPITAL) and guess what? It never reached the papers, and no one in the public heard about it.
A close friend of mine also sadly lost her baby last year IN A HOSPITAL during what should have been a very normal birth. They raced her to surgery to perform a c-section but it was too late.
These are realities of birth. It’s sad. It’s tragic. But babies die in birth. Women die in birth. They die at home and they die at hospital. They actually die a heck of a lot more in hospitals I’d say, because it’s only ever the home birth stories we hear about (and are sensationalized like this article.) Good one Mammamia in showing us for once oand for all that you are committed to reporting a made up, not useful to anybody, heavily prejudiced point of view.
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Belinda, I am confused about your accusation against MM and your statement that this article is ”
one of the most ill-informed and biased pieces of drivel I have ever had the displeasure of reading”
MM is just reporting the findings OF THE CORONER.
You know, the person entrusted with hearing ALL THE FACTS OF THE CASE, ALL THE ARGUMENTS FROM BOTH SIDES and then make their recommendations .
So I think what you are saying is that the coroner who heard all the facts from both sides, is biased, bigoted and ignorant.
Am I reading you correctly??
I hope not, because that would make your statement biased, bigoted and so very very ignorant it is staggering.
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Of course a heck of a lot more babies die in hospital as a heck of a lot of more babies are born in hospital. But at least those hospital babies had the opportunity for a team of well-trained doctors and nurses to fight to save them when stuff went wrong. An opportunity which should absolutely be provided for any innocent child who should not suffer/die because Mummy took a ‘lifestyle’ choice. For what?
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Mine was not a high risk pregnancy, there were no symptoms of any drama, but I had an emergency c section and a bub who absolutely would have died without immediate transfer to a big city NICU with the staff and equipment to keep her alive. I’m all for women trying for the birth they want, but jesus, surely the most important thing is that everyone makes it through alive?
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Mama Mia seems to be a reflection of Mia’s personal opinions. Mia- do you believe that women have the right to CHOOSE whether they can kill their baby (abortion) but no right to choose what care is the best for their own body and their own baby during birth- essentially it is the same argument, except that women choosing how to birth generally pick an option THEY think is safest for baby, not because of ‘lifestyle’ reasons, and women who choose to abort are more likely to do so because of LIFESTYLE reasons. Before you say that a hospital is always the safest place for a baby- I know first hand how imperfect and fallible doctors can be. My dad is a doctor and has struggled privately with addiction to dangerous prescription drugs for years. This isn’t uncommon- the Sunday Age ran an article about this a week ago. I know many of his colleagues who have operated under less than safe conditions. Doctors do not always know best, for all the women here who presume it’s arrogant to question a medical opinion, they are wrong. Every decade something new is discovered that proves doctors did not always know best the decade before. Just looking at the history of medicine and birth proves this. Doctors are just humans and every decade or so they discover they are doing things wrong too. Doctors are often overworked and hospitals have financial pressures and constraints that can interfere with what is genuinely best for a woman. I’m 25- I do not know where or how I will birth- but I believe every woman has the right to decide what SHE thinks is safest for her baby and body- and it’s completely unfeminist for MamaMia to suggest otherwise. Can you call yourself a feminist then suggest a women can not do her research and make her own decision- but must listen to a male doctor/hospital with how best to birth HER baby- even knowing there are insurance companies and profits etc that influence these institutions?
I’m an advocate of a MOTHER DECIDING FOR HERSELF how she births- whether in a hospital or at home. I recommend Mia do some real research- watch the documentary The Business of Being Born- which explores the history of birth and the invisible pressures on hospitals- before publishing one-sided pieces. I believe this may help you understand why it other women make decisions different from yours- and that the heart of their decision is the same as yours- the best interest of their family. Literally every study for low risk pregnancies shows the risks to be equal in a hospital or home- EQUAL. Isn’t it arrogant for people to argue against cold hard facts???!!!!! I think I have to ignore any future birth article on Mama Mia because, while I don’t mind reading an article exploring two sides, I don’t like reading an article (or listening to someone) that hasn’t even tried to.
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My mum was a midwife before she gave birth to my sister (at home). She had me and my brother at home as well, with the support of my dad but without another midwife present. I think it’s wonderful and amazing that she did this.
But I also know that if there had been any risks she would have gone to a hospital. And if any of her patients had been at risk she would have made them go. I agree that all midwives should be registered before they can assist in births (don’t they currently have to be??!).
And EVERYONE involved should make sure proper care is given based on the individual circumstances surrounding a birth. If it’s all healthy, great, if not then a hospital is the safest place.
-Amyspeak
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This is a really great response. The stats show that home births are just as safe as hospital births IF THE PREGNANCY IS LOW-RISK. I wish more people understood this.
I would consider a homebirth, but only after careful monitoring of the pregnancy and only in the company of a registered midwife who comes equipped with life-saving equipment.
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Just like when they are born via cesarean and then have to deal with increased rates of asthma, allergies and the list goes on and on.
parents have to make decision facing their children’s wellbeing. This is thier job. They chose whether they should wear a jacket, how often they go to the dentist, if they eat processed and chemical filled food., to let them get FAT and obese.
not all of this is great ofr the child – but often, the parent is doing what they feel is best for their child. Not becaise they are lazy.
You want to make home birhtds illegal? Fine, then make having an obese child illegal too.
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Having a home birth isn’t about choosing what is best for your child, it’s about you’re own selfish reasons for not wanting to go to hospital.
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That’s a very myopic view to take Alana. If you ever lived in a regional area you would know that sometimes hospitals are not the best place to have a baby. Where I grew up there is often no room for women in labour thanks to a lack of government support, which leads to a lack of staff and greater stress on the doctors and nurses there. Besides that, if you have to drive 30-45 mins to actually GET to the hospital, it may be better to stay at home than end up giving birth on the side of the road (as someone else I know recently had to).
The point is that there are all kinds of reasons for wanting a home birth, and not all of them are “selfish” or just to do with the mother.
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If home birth is just a safe or of lower risk than being in a hospital (like so many people are saying here) then why do doctors refuse to attend? Probably because they know the real risks.
Being in a delivery room means you are seconds away from an operating theatre if your baby becomes deprived of oxygen, or your uterus ruptures.
If one is at home & requires emergency assistance it involves an ambulance ride (probably will get stuck in traffic) then a transfer from the ED up through the lifts to the OT.
Yeah…. Just as safe *shakes head*
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Alana, I’d like to refer you to the last sentence of my original comment, put here again in case you missed it (which is seems you did):
“If it’s all healthy, great, if not then a hospital is the safest place.”
Just because other people here are saying one thing DOES NOT mean I am also saying it. Never did I say it was safer or lower risk to have a home birth. Others may have, but that’s not what I believe.
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My three children were born at home. The decision was not easy but made sense to my partner and myself. Having babies in hospitals do not ensure safe births, things go wrong there as well ~ but my home births were peaceful, no unnecessary interventions, no hospital germs, no accidental switching of babies, no poking, prodding or harsh and cold environments. I saw a gynecologist throughout the pregnancy and did a pre-admission (just in case). My midwife had oxygen and emergency preparatory items. My doctor said that my transport to hospital would take no longer than transport to the base hospital where any emergency procedures would have to take place. I WAS prepared.
I did not take the responsibility lightly, nor was it selfishly done, I honestly felt that this was the right choice for us.
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I think you have missed the point. Lisa Barrett did not inform these mums of the risks in their particular situation. They were unable to make an informed decision to home birth and their baby died. That’s what this is about, not wether there should be access to home birth.
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Even low risk pregnancies and subsequent low risk labour can rapidly progress to medical emergencies. These are the facts.
And midwives can’t do surgery. Midwives. Can’t. Do. Surgery.
And no one can do surgery at home. Not even Lisa Barrett.
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If there was only 1% risk of something going wrong during a homebirth, I would still never never take that risk ever. I would do everything & anything to make sure they had a safe delivery. My babies are much more precious to me than I am, I don’t care what kind of birth experience I have. It’s not about me, it’s about my baby!!!
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Well said!!
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Exactly.
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….and if the risk was the same as if you gave birth in a hospital with a poor record in the operating theatre? where then do you give birth?
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If the risk was 1% then you would statistically be safer at home. The risk of complications in a hospital is higher than 1% (reactions to epidurals, acquired infections etc).
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I have had two children naturally.
The second was a wonderful, quick, relatively easy birth.
The first was appalling and had we not been in a hospital both my son and I would have died.
I’m sure that my second child could have been born at home but for me it isn’t worth the risk.
http://mummyateme.blogspot.com.au/
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It would be interesting to see a complete court transcript. I would be very interested in the parents’ level of knowledge and understanding of potential complications and associated risks. Equally it would be important to know Ms Barrett’s real (or purported) level of knowledge and understanding of potential complications and associated risks. If Ms Barrett was acting as a confidant or advisor to the parents then one hopes she knew what she was talking about or had the sense to clearly admit the situation was out of her depth and that the parents should seek an expert opinion.
The coroner has recommended changes to regulations governing homebirths which, on a brief reading, seek to promote informed decision making by a imposing any person providing a health service to report to the Department of Health the intention of any person to undergo a homebirth known to have an increased risk of complication. In light of this case such a recommendation seems imminently sensible.
By the way – my view is that the headline is a little provocative and probably incorrect, just because one avenue of birth would have meant the babies would have lived does not necessarily mean that alternative was the cause of the deaths.
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You can read the Coroner’s report here. It deals specifically with your questions.
http://www.courts.sa.gov.au/courts/coroner/findings/findings_2012/Spencer-Koch_Hobbs_Kavanagh.pdf
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I’m not going to judge anyones choices. Both my son’s were born in hospitals (one vaginal 1 cesarean) and that was my choice. i would have loved to have had me youngest son naturally but due to “possible risk factors” I had him via cesarean. My thinking when I was told I should have a cesarean was that anyway I can get my baby from inside me to the outside world safely is all I cared about.
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Whoa, considering at least one fact in this article shows the author did no real research at all,
I’ll get my ‘fact’ on homebirth from a more reliable source, thank you very much!
How many hospital births have ended im stillbirth as a direct result of the incompetence of the doctors presiding over the births. Before spouting ‘facts’ about the supposed inherent dangers of birthing at home, gets some actual facts about still birth rates in ALL birthing environments. i had a homebirth with my fourth at the advanced age of 37, I was obese, I’d previously had a forceps assisted burth of a 10lb baby, I also had a history of very quick labours anf going to 42 weeks before induction. I had many factors from previous births which would now be considered ‘high risk’. The birth was as straightforward as could be. I would most definitely do it again. It was no more a ‘lifestyle’ choice than choosing to eat, breathe or sleep.
This article is reckless and wholly uninformed.
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Sif, I find your comment reckless and wholly uninformed.
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wish we could ‘like’ comments.. mammamia??
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Er…you can…
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You’re most welcome to your opinion
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You were just bloody lucky. At least( well I hope) you were fully informed of the high risks you were taking specific to your situation. Some of the women mentioned in this inquest werent, they were unable to make a fully informed choice to home birth and their babies died. NOTHING about that is ok.How would you feel if that had been you? Why are you not outraged about it too?
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There is a reason why some births are classed as “high risk”. This means there is a higher risk that something will go wrong – not that something WILL go wrong. So you were fortunate that nothing did go wrong if you could be classed as high risk. You should not be an advocate for home births. Home births are not for high risk pregnancies/births. Why? Just read the coronial inquest on these poor babies and you’ll have the answer. Because the high risk is that these baby’s will die. Fact,
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Actually you are not a “high risk” pregnancy, you were a multip with a history of fast deliveries not high risk at all. The only risk involved is too yourself and your children for being obese at 37
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Being obese and advanced maternal age makes her high risk! And yes, whether your low risk or high risk doesn’t mean a complication is guaranteed to occur but how likely is will occur. Just like driving home with a blood alcohol level of 0.08% versus 0.15% doesn’t guarantee an accident but how likely one might occur.
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Sif, thank GOD nothing happened to you or your fourth baby during your homebirth. But in my humble opinion, I find you incredibly irresponsible for having a homebirth given all the factors in play, placing you in the high risk category.
Lets be clear that it was pure LUCK that the birth was straightforward. Nothing else.
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Sif, in the Netherlands you would not have been given the option of a home birth because of your weight and birthing history (not your age, I was 39 when I home birthed there last year).
What were you actually trying to prove by having a home birth knowing your risk factor was high? I get the lifestyle aspect, and your choice, etc – but I simply would not have done what you did. I’m not trying to criticise, but I’m interested in understanding how you came to that decision, knowing full well that you were taking on some extra risk. (And I’m so pleased that your delivery ended up being successful.)
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Are you for real? Who do you think you are proclaiming to know more than obstetricians-who have studied for YEARS in their chosen fields, mind you-about childbirth? These babies deserve the safest entry into the world-it’s not about trying to fulfill some selfish fantasy of yours. We have first class medical equipment available along with highly trained medical staff that do this every. Single. Day. Why wouldn’t you want that for your baby’s entrance into the world? I don’t get it…
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Why aren’t these mothers held more accountable?!
You get prosecuted when withholding medical treatment from your ‘born’ child, why isn’t it the same when they are coming into the world??
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Good point. I totally agree, not allowing your unborn/newborn baby access to medical treatment is irresponsible & selfish.
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Many hardcore homebirthers really feel home is safer, but some women who hear about homebirthing are told by their midwifes and advocates that it is as safe or safer than hospital birth, to trust their bodies, that their bodies cannot produce a baby bigger than what they can deliver, that their baby will send signals to their body when it is time to deliver, that hospitals will start unnecessary interventions ( epidurals and pitocin) that will always lead to an unnecessary cesarean. So some moms trust their midwife and deliver at home. That is why the article is trying to educate people that hospitals are not the dangerous places that homebirthers say it is and if you homebirth know the real risks. Many of these moms didn’t know better, they trusted their “expert, professional” midwife.
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Foetuses do not have any rights under Australian law. Rights are only gained once a child is born alive. The approach is governed by the idea that a woman deserve total bodily autonomy, and that giving rights to a foetus would infringe upon these rights. It would also call into question the legality of abortion. For example under NSW law if a pregnant woman is assaulted and as a result loses her pregnancy the attacker can only be charged with assault occasioning grievous bodily harm.
While I strongly believe that a woman should have the right to make decisions about her body even when these decisions involve the refusal of treatment, it is very difficult to accept that this right and this ethical framework can lead to tragedies such as these with no real opportunity for justice for the unborn.
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I home birthed in the Netherlands last September. It was a wonderful experience.
If I was unwell in any way (high bp, diabetes), or had twins, breech, difficult first pregnancy, etc, etc – the midwives would not have offered me the option of home birthing. Full stop. FULL STOP!
I decided to home birth because it was suggested by the excellent Dutch midwives, as I was healthy and ticked ALL of the boxes. The hospitals are minutes away, the midwives decisions are fully supported by all and sundry (doctors, insurance companies, government, etc). The midwives are extremely risk averse. I had the option at any time during my labour to change my mind and go to hospital. At one point my son’s heartbeat dropped to 108 bpm (the ‘normal’ range is 110 to 160). My midwife said that she would check again in 2 mins, and if it was still under 110 I was going to the hospital. I felt reassured by their risk averseness.
My first son was born in a private hospital in Melbourne. The experience was fine. I personally don’t really care where my children were born. I am not a home birthing advocate in Australia. The hospitals are simply too far away in my opinion, and the system is NOT supported here. By all means lobby away, but don’t risk your child’s life.
I have two beautiful sons. That is the most important thing. Would happily have a ‘bad’ delivery if I have a healthy child to hold afterwards.
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That sounds like a lovely experience for you. It seems to be a much better set up over there than in Australia. I think distance is a factor here. Maybe more birthing centre attached to hospitals would be the answer? Where you had less intervention but a doctor was available if needed.
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Thanks – it was pretty amazing (although my mother is still recovering!). I think that birthing centres are an excellent idea too.
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I am not a homebirther, in fact I get scared every time I hear of someone planning to have one. My son wouldn’t be here if I’d birthed at home – completely normal, low-risk pregnancy and labour ended in baby born not breathing and needing immediate resuscitation. HOWEVER, as a feminist I am 100%, unequivocally in favour of a woman’s right to choose what happens to her body. That includes abortion, and it includes giving birth at home. To me being pro choice means accepting a woman’s right to make these decisions, regardless of whether it’s the decision I’d make for myself.
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What about the rights of the baby to get the best possible start in life and have all possible complications covered??
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Agreed. In advocating the rights of the women who choose home birth, the rights of the child are ignored. Those babies were entitled to the proper medical care and this was denied.
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It’s a very slippery slope if we allow medical professionals to make decisions which trump a woman’s right to decline and make choices about their medical treatment.
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Jackson, I’m not sure how all possible complications could ever be covered regardless of where a woman gives birth? Do you have any idea about the differences in facilities in various maternity hospitals? When I gave birth to my son, I was fortunate to be in a hospital that had a NICU and a paediatrician ready to rush in and save his life. Had I been at the (very reputable) hospital where I gave birth to my daughter, there was no NICU, no paediatrician, so given the same circumstances my baby would not have survived. Does this mean we are all violating our baby’s rights unless we give birth at a hospital with a NICU? Again, it is not possible to cover all possibilities. We all make the choices we believe our best for ourselves and our babies.
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well said, Georgina
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I home birthed in the Netherlands last September. It was a wonderful experience.
If I was unwell in any way (high bp, diabetes), or had twins, breech, difficult first pregnancy, etc, etc – the midwives would not have offered me the option of home birthing. Full stop. FULL STOP!
I decided to home birth because it was suggested by the excellent Dutch midwive, as I was healthy and ticked ALL of the boxes. The hospitals are minutes away, the midwives decisions are fully supported by all and sundry (doctors, insurance companies, government, etc). The midwives are extremely risk averse. I had the option at any time during my labour to change my mind and go to hospital. At one point my son’s heartbeat dropped to 108 bpm (the ‘normal’ range is 110 to 160). My midwife said that she would check again in 2 mins, and if it was still under 110 I was going to the hospital. I felt reassured by their risk averseness.
My first son was born in a private hospital in Melbourne. The experience was fine. I personally don’t really care where my children were born. I am not a home birthing advocate in Australia. The hospitals are simply too far away in my opinion, and the system is NOT supported here. By all means lobby away, but don’t risk your child’s life.
I have two beautiful sons. That is the most important thing. Would happily have a ‘bad’ delivery if I have a healthy child to hold afterwards.
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Yes, its true that in these 3 instances, home birthing lead to the death of these infants.
However. Infants die in hospital births all the time. At a greater rate than in home births in fact.
I believe that women who are high risk should give birth in a hospital, but it is becoming more difficult to tell exactly what ‘high risk’ is. Past history gives an indication, but ob’s are often more cautious than perhaps is necessary. We know this from increasing ceasarean rates correlated with staying the same infant death rates.
Our birthing culture needs to change. Perhaps if women felt more in control of their hospital births then they would be more willing to have a hospital birth in the first place. More birthing centres attached to hospitals would be ideal and a great first step. A separate licencing system for home birth attendants with a backup plan at a local hospital would be a good second step.
It is a tragedy that these deaths occurred but it is a symptom of a system that is not working.
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“At a greater rate than in home-births in fact”.. where on EARTH did you pull that “fact” from? references?
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It’s a skewed statistic because first you need to identify the number of woman who give birth in hospital as opposed to at home. Of course more babies die in hospitals because the proportion of women birthing in hospitals is greater.its a fine example of people turning stats around to support their opinion.
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And don’t forget that babies that get into strife at home, get transported to hospital but then tragically pass away are counted as a hospital statistic, even though their troubles started at the home birth
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In Victoria 2002-2008, 613 women chose to abort their healthy, but unwanted, pregnancies post-22 weeks. Most of those babies could have survived if born in a hospital. Why are we not attacking these women and their caregivers, too?
Now I’m NOT saying we should. But I am so deeply confused at the contempt for homebirth, and the way in which women who seek it are continually ridiculed, labelled irresponsible and worse (especially on this website). Why are we only willing to stand up for a woman’s right to make reproductive choices about her body, her pregnancy, her baby, if the baby is unwanted? Why prosecute this midwife, against the wishes of the dead babies’ families, but not the medical professionals for those 613 babies in Victoria?
it just makes no sense to me. We fought hard for the right to choose. So why is home birth not a good enough choice?
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Well said Jamie. It feels sometimes that choice is only advocated as long as someone agrees with it.
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613 women chose to abort their babies, but it would NOT have been at the 9month mark, and it would have been in a medically safe/humane way. PLUS they were unwanted pregnancies. The difference here is that these babies (most of them) are full-term and would/could have been in pain/scared but more importnantly the women supposedly ‘want’ these babies, want to raise them and care for them their whole lives and yet care more about having a fluffy earth-mother birthing experience than the safety of their child.
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Isn’t the difference that the second group have chosen to bring a human life into the world? The first group acknowledge they don’t want to be responsible for creating a life, so terminate the foetus. The second group determines that they want to be responsible for creating a life, and carry the pregnancy through to viability and birth.
To me, once you choose to take responsibility for that life and the pregnancy become viable, you have to do what is best for that life – don’t take drugs, don’t drink, don’t withhold appropriate medical attention, etc.
Supporting some choices doesn’t mean you have to support all choices. (It’s an interesting argument that you’ve raised though – I just see a large distinction.)
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thanks alice.. exactly what I was meaning to say, but trying to type quickly and sneakily at work and very passionate/upset about topic! Much more sussinct
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PS if it’s just about ‘wantedness’ do we have any ground to oppose, for example sex-selective abortion? This is not in any way an anti-abortion thing, I’m just genuinely concerned by the double standards being thrown around in a lot of the anti-homebirth arguments.
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Alice & Sophie -
We are not talking about ‘foetuses’ but ‘babies’ – post-22 week births, still or live, get a birth and death certificate, and must have a funeral. Premature babies from 24 weeks can be kept alive in the NICU, although not all survive.
To be honest, I prefer the SA coroner’s dodgy definition of ‘pulseless electrical activity’ to your ‘wanted’ as a definition of life. Do we really only give human rights and personhood to someone if we want them around?
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Wrong.
No baby born at any stage is given a birth certificate unless it is born alive. A baby that dies at birth at any stage of pregnancy is only given a death certificate if it was born alive and then dies post birth. For example, a 30 week baby that dies in utero before being born does not receive a birth or death certificate. A death certificate is not issued to a baby that not taken a breath outside the womb.
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you’re right, of course, sorry – getting confused in all the threads! But this is exactly what I mean – at least one of the babies delivered by this midwife NEVER took a breath and yet the coroner determined it to be born alive in order to investigate. That’s some serious line-shifting when it comes to how hospitals, caregivers, administrators etc deal with still birth, right?
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Babies born after 20 weeks must be registered and a birth certificate is issued, whether they are dead or alive. I also take issue with the person above saying that those babies terminated in Vic were unwanted. A termination after 20 weeks is taken to an ethics committee in NSW and the mother has to see a psychiatrist and there is a lot of paper work for the medical staff. The statistic makes light of the complex reasons and decisions behind this figure.
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Hey Katmag those stats are from the Consultative Council on Obstetric & Paediatric Mortality & Morbidity 2008 Annual Report. They are separate figures to those from terminations to save the mother’s life (0) and those where the baby was diagnosed abnormal. I’m sorry if you think it makes light, I agree the situation is complex but I don’t think it’s unfair to refer to those pregnancies/babies as ‘unwanted’.
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My son who was terminated at 34 weeks due to a chromosomal defect has both a birth certificate and a death certificate. His ne also appears on his twin sisters birth certificate and his brother and sister born 2 years after his death. Any child born after 20 weeks alive or dead requires a birth certificate.
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I’m not sure where you live but it’s not like that in Victoria. I speak from experience within the past year.
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I actually think this article is more akin to arguing that women who choose to have abortions should do so in a safe, medical environment.
No-one advocates a “home” abortion over a hospital one. The use of chemical abortion methods is illegal in Australia because authorities believe that women should be under professional care for risky procedures.
Both birth and abortion can be simple and straightforward or complicated and dangerous.
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Hey Kylie2.
\he coroner would look into the death of a woman, but not the death of a fetus/baby (depending on gestation of course) during a backyard abortion, or even during a stillbirth. So the central question is not so much ‘safety’ as the personhood of the baby, and when it is considered to be alive, and therefore have legal recognition, rights to care and ‘safety’ etc.
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Sorry Jamie, I misunderstood.
I was focussing on your question about the prosecution of the midwife. I consider it to be to be similar to prosecuting a backyard abortionist who encouraged women to use a relatively unsafe procedure when safer ones are available.
The personhood of the baby is a much trickier issue, I get where you’re coming from now.
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Really Jamie?! You are comparing women who lose their baby because they chose an abortion because they didn’t want the child with women who lose they baby because of their poor decision of homebirth of a child that they did want! I won’t question an abortion that is legal and the mother didn’t want the child. But I will question a home birth death of a wanted child that could have survived because homebirth death RATE is 3 times higher than hospital death RATE.
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I myself had to have an emergency c section due to my baby being an undiagnosed breech, while I was a bit disappointed, I am just so glad that we are both okay. Just last week had a friend who had a horrendous bleed post birth and nearly didn’t make it, if she was at home she would have died. I understand that a home birth that goes well must be amazing, but I just don’t think that it is worth the risk.
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Honestly, while this article is a little one-sided, I really agree with the advice of my own doctor, which is for homebirth to be practised only by women who have already had at least one problem-free birth. A VBAC is risky in itself (risk of uterine rupture). This is just so devastating. I have friends who have lost babies at birth, it is an awful tragedy, and to know that your own decision led to this loss, well I don’t know if I could forgive myself. So sad.
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I think about it this way: if you had a 2 week old baby and it was sick and you didnt like hospitals or modern medicine so you didnt seek treatment and they died you would be charged. How is this different? It shouldnt be all about the wellbeing of the mother, when you choose to have a baby you are choosing to be a responsible for a life. It really saddens me.
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I agree, hence above comment.
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I am a student midwife and was recently present at a birth where the baby sadly died. It was a normal vaginal birth of a full- term infant. In hospital. Did you hear about that in the news? I didn’t think so. Infant death occurs for numerous reasons, often in the safest of environments, not just during home births.
As an ‘insider’ I experience first hand the severe lack of birth choices available to women in our current health system, a system that is generally far more medicalised that necessary. Home birth is often a last resort choice for women wanting to maintain control over their body and their birth.
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I know that sometimes happens, but at times there really isn’t anything that can be done to prevent a death at birth. However, these were all high risk women – post c-section and a breech delivery. As a midwife you should know that this can lead to complications. It was thoughtless to go through with it, and the midwife should have advised them otherwise.
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The issue is very clear: was the death avoidable? Was it at least *possibly* avoidable?
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Thank you Millie, babies die all the time during child birth – not just in home births.
Now lets break down Mamamia’s breakdown:
So let’s break this down.
“Three babies who could have lived, would have lived, had they been born in a hospital.”
You don’t know this – all you can say is 3 babies who could have lived, may have lived had they been born in a hospital.
“Three women who knew their births would be high-risk but insisted on home births anyway.”
As is their prerogative, my (unpopular) opinion is that Parents should always have the final say as to what is happening to their children, not the government.
“A midwife who could not and was unable to provide the same level of medical support as a hospital.”
same as point 1.
“Three mothers who lost their children because they wanted a ‘lifestyle’ birth.”
And those mothers have to live with the loss of their children, it affects them more than any of you people who want to demonise their decisions, yet are perfectly fine with a women terminating her pregnancy when she wants to.
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It was the CORONER who said it! Mamamia REPORTED his findings, can’t you people read? If you go to any of the other newspapers you will find the same article with the same findings. Take it up with the coroner not mamamia. I guess you don’t want to hear the truth because it doesn’t support your views!
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Except the coroner didn’t say that the babies WOULD have lived now did they?
I was replying to mamamia’s “break down” not the coroners report.
I guess you don’t want to hear an opinion when it doesn’t support your view!
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Actually thats what the coroner did say. That if they had a caesarean in a hospital instead of a home birth the babies would have lived. The coroners report is here:
http://www.courts.sa.gov.au/courts/coroner/findings/findings_2012/Spencer-Koch_Hobbs_Kavanagh.pdf
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I skimmed that report and couldn’t see any such statement but if so the coroner is an idiot.
nobody can say the babies WOULD have lived with any certainty. they can say that the babies wouldn’t have encountered the same issues which were found to cause their deaths but there is no way anyone can know if the babies would actually be alive had the mother been in hospital.
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“nobody can say the babies WOULD have lived with any certainty.”
Yes this statement is true ‘Anonymous’. No-one knows with any certainty what the future holds but the fact of the matter is the home birth and lack of medical intervention caused the deaths. So, of course you can go onto say that if the mother and babies got the medical intervention recommended they would have survived.
Let’s look at your argument using a car fatality as in example. Say, a death occurred as a result of a driver going 140 k/h and missing a curve in the road then, of course, one would assume if they were going 65 k/m an hour they would have survived. No-one can say for certainly they would survive the journey but if they continued to drive the rest of the way safely, it is more than very, very likely they would have.
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I hardly would call a student midwife an “insider” Here in QLD student midwives only get to do about 8 deliveries in their training, if they are lucky. Hardly qualifies you to be an expert on childbirth
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Where do you get this information from? You’ll actually find that guidelines state we must conduct a minimum of 40 deliveries before we can register as midwives. I have done almost that many already and I’m only half way through my training.
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You’re wrong. Doctors only need 5 births to be registered. Maybe that’s what you’re thinking of?
I’d say Millie is more of an insider than you. I well remember the “book” we had to fill with births we’d “delivered”, witnessed, caesarians we’d assisted/witnessed, examinations both abdo and vaginal we’d performed and prem babies we’d cared for.
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BTW, I’m in Qld too….
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You’re exactly right Faybian. The clinical portfolio we must present prior to registration is enormous!
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I still have my book. A lot keep theirs too. It’s very hardwon and has some sentimental value (weird I know).
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Get your facts right, my husband is an obstetrician and they have to do at least 200 deliveries along with everything else they have to do to get elevated to fellowship. Fact..my husband did way more than that by the end of his training. Medical students do at least 10, I really hope you don’t think that 1st year residents then walk into delivery suites and start delivering babies! How ignorant.
FYI I was a midwife too and my best friends daughter just finished her bachelor nursing/midwifery and is now working at the RBWH in labour ward and she got to do 6 deliveries in her training. She witnessed more but the reality is that is all she did. Why do you think they have changed the whole midwifery course here in QLD? I think you people should read up on the facts before you sprout off about things
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I didn’t say obstetricians did I? I said doctors, as in graduating from uni. To become an obstetrician you obviously need way more than that. I’m not totally stupid. They obviously have increased the number of deliveries needed since I was last told by a medical student.
I reiterate that I don’t know anyone who’s only delivered 6-8 babies to get their registration/endorsement as a midwife. BTW, my daughter is also at uni in Qld doing nursing and I still work in the field…..
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I had a baby in hospital and had no curtailing of my rights or choices.
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Me too. I have had very good experiences (2kids), in 2 hospitals. I never felt that my choices were not respected. Overall very positive experiences.
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I chose an epidural. It was awesome.
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Mia, I’m sure you mean the epidural was FORCED upon you against your WILL.
Just like my emergency Caesar was FORCED upon me by the dastardly surgeon. Who said “It’s what we’d recommend, unless you’re really hell bent on a vaginal delivery”. Bastards!
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Of course it was forced on you because you know what my husband, an obstetrician, just loves getting up at 3am like he did last night and going into the hospital and assessing a baby in foetal distress. Then loves spending time waking up an anesthetist who I’m sure just loves getting out of bed too to do an epidural. Then organising theatre and a paedatrician and an surgical assistant. Then spending the next hour doing a c/section, then getting home at 6am and turning around and consulting until 7pm. The reality is he would much rather do a normal delivery but some loons out there think that people like him love to intervene. Reality check..obstetricians prefer uncomplicated deliveries. Another fact, they don’t get paid more for intervening, so if you were an obstetrician what do you think you would prefer, spending half your night organising and doing a c/section that sometimes is a high stress situation or an hour or so doing a normal delivery?
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See! Proof! What horrible people they are. How dare they make sure they do their best to see a baby arrive and both Mum and bub are safe and well and alive.
I nearly fell off the bed when the surgeon who did my Caesar walked in at about 8.30 that night (time of birth was 8.05) having been in theatre all day and that being the first chance he had to come up and go over what happened in the surgery. Well, I would have fallen off the bed if I wasn’t being VIOLATED by a drip giving me medicine to stave off infection and a catheter!
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lucky you
but we are not all you and so lucky
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Before having my son two months ago I was interested in a home birth, but because I live rurally it just wasn’t possible. (too far to hospital if something should go wrong)
Back then my opinion was; home births are ideal but better connections need to be made between midwives and hospitals. (so they are willing to take complcations in ASAP without fear of negative treatment)
Now however, after a smooth sailing complicated free pregnancy with a holy -crap – everything- went – wrong – in – the – last – 1/2 hour- birth I would never risk a home birth.
Without a doubt; had I been at home, my son would not be in my arms as I type this.
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