Kate Forsyth is a bestselling children’s author and an expert on Fairy Tales. In fact, she is studying for doctorate in precisely that. After taking exception to Mia’s vendetta against Cinderella and her happily ever after sisters, we invited Kate to put forward a different point of view and are delighted that she has.
Mia has said the heroines of fairy tales make her want to claw her own face off. She worries about the effect on her own daughter of an obsession with pink, plastic princesses churned out in their millions by Disney Inc.
Don’t blame fairy tales, blame the men who took the tales and retold them. Charles Perrault, Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm, and most of all, Walt Disney.
Fairy tales were originally told by women to the children who sat at their knee as they worked to keep the family fed and clothed and clean, just as women do today. Fairy tales reflected the world of its tellers – poor wood-cutters and cobblers, fishermen and farmers, girls that had to work to make a living and dreamt of spinning straw into gold. The power in the stories was always held by women, whether for good in the shape of a wise woman, or for evil in the shape of witches.
In the late 17th century, Perrault turned the wise woman of these tales into a fluffy fairy godmother with a sparkly wand, and moved the stories into castles. Then the Grimm Brothers came along and rewrote the tales according to their own stern and patriarchal vision of the world.
In their original 1812 edition of Children’s & Household Tales, there are 61 female characters that have magical powers compared to only 21 males; and many of these are dwarfs.
In this edition, the Grimm brothers were simply recording tales told to them by the women of their acquaintance, some young, some old, some poor and illiterate, others middle-class and well-educated.
In later editions, the Grimm brothers re-wrote these stories to make them “suitable for children”. Many stories with active female protagonists were discarded or diluted.
The original Little Red Riding Hood, for example, was a peasant girl who escapes the wolf due entirely to her own cleverness. It was Charles Perrault who gave her a red cap – symbolic of passion and blood – and made the tale a cautionary one in which the heroine is gobbled up by the wolf. It was the Grimm Brothers who brought in a male hunter to save her, making her seem like a twit.
The original Rapunzel – named ‘Persinette’ in a 1696 tale by French writer Charlotte-Rose de Caumont de la Force – was the daughter of poor people, so hungry they steal a handful of parsley from a witch. They are forced to give up their child or face the death penalty. Locked away in solitary confinement in a tower, Persinette sings so beautifully she causes the prince to fall in love with her. Persinette has sex with him, plots with him to escape and, in the end, gives birth to twins, saves the prince with her healing tears, and persuades the witch to relent. The Grimm brothers’ retelling made her into such a meek little idiot that the psychological term ‘Rapunzel syndrome’ was coined to describe a woman who waits passively to be rescued.
Fairy tales work because they speak in metaphor, archetype, and symbol. They contain within them all of our deepest fears and deepest desires. Don’t deny your children the thrill and danger and power of a good fairy tale; just pick the right ones to tell them. One in which the heroine is brave, bright, kind, resourceful, and saves both herself and others.
Like Gretel, who rescues Hansel from the witch.
Like Eliza in ‘Twelve Swans’ who weaves magical shirts from nettles to save her brothers.
Like the young wife in ‘The Robber Bridegroom’, who tells stories to save her life.
Like Gerda, who saves Kay from the Snow Queen, melting the fragment of ice in his heart with her tears.
And, yes, even Cinderella, who really triumphs because she is hard-working and kind, not because she has great shoes.
Though great shoes always help, of course.
Do you read fairy tales to your children? Do you think the fairy tales you heard as a child affected the way you think at all?
f you notice that things are looking a little more special on Mamamia lately – you are right. We launched Mamamia 3.0 on Monday and we hope you love it as much as we do. If you have any feedback at all please click here to add your voice – Thanks from the Mamamia Team






Comments
89 Comments so far
Kate, thought this was a great article!
Fairytales are a fascinating and extremely worthwhile subject to study as I really believe we can learn so much about the development of human interaction and fundamental human morality from them.
I wonder what your thoughts on the latest Rapunzel version ‘Tangled’ by disney are?
I thought it was a great story, with a very empowered female lead, just like my favourite disney gal Belle. I understand that the early Disney adaptions pandered to the reactionary patriarchal view of women dominant in America at the time and do not reflect the true history of the early texts, but I think the ‘Disney Renaissance’ in the early 90s was a big leap forward.
To this day nothing tugs on my heart strings like my favourite princess movies. Not because they were rescued by handsome men or had pretty dresses, but because they were strong, intelligent and brave women who fought for the people they loved. Everything I still hope to become, and what I believe makes for a truly happy ending.
loading...
I used to love Belle (Beauty and the beast) when I was little – she shuts down the jerk Gaston, saves her father, stands up for herself, looks beyond the exterior of the beast, and holds her own in the final battle scene.
loading...
Completely agree. Belle in Beauty and the Beast was different to the normal Disney princess characters. She read, saw beyond appearances, was kind and, as you said, held her own. I’m happy to say it was my favourite Disney princess film as a kid.
This was a really interesting article, Kate!
loading...
Well said!
Belle was always my favourite because of her personality, and because she was obsessed with reading as I am.
I even wished I had brown hair sometimes because I never related to any of the silly blonde princesses.
Even as I child I saw that our inner qualities are far more important than wearing a ball gown or having a certain colour hair. I think kids are not given enough credit for their ability to see through the bull**** and understand what is worth aspiring towards.
loading...
i have read a book by Bruno Bettleheim, which argues that kids love fairy tales bc they inutitively know that life is harsh and cruel, and need to hear it to help themselves prepare for it. Also, they identify socially unacceptable emotions in themselves and fairytales give them a way to imagine, manipulate and understand these emotions. So if a kid repeateldy want you to retell them the same story- do it. Their subconscious is working something out and needs a way to do it. But not the Disney versions.
Having said that, some Disney princesse that have spunk, though, like Ariel, the one in the Hunckback of Notre Dame, and the one in the Princess and the Frog.
My favourite Princess? The Paperbag Princess! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paper_Bag_Princess
loading...
The fairy tale books I had were:
The Splendor Book of Ballet with the original, dark stories of The Nutcracker, Giselle and The Swan Queen.
The Tough Princess about a princess whose parents try to make her part of a fairty tale and instead of being put to sleep to wait for a prince to rescue her, she punches the witch and goes off to save the world herself.
And finally “How To Catch A Crocodile” which my mother wrote and my uncle illustrated, staring me, my brother and our neighbours who all head down the bush to save our suburb from a great big saltwater crocodile.
I turned out alright
loading...
I remember having a book i just loved of Oscar Wilde’s children’s fairy tales when I was a kid. The Selfish Giant, The Happy Prince & The Nightingale & The Rose are the ones i remember most. I must try to find them an reread them now as an adult
loading...
Oh and Revolting Rhymes by Roald Dahl was another favourite!
loading...
Angela Carter’s fairytales are an amazing feminist-inspired retelling of many classic fairytales, although they’re not entirely suitable for children, but nonetheless they are brilliant.
loading...
My daughter loved the fairy tales, especially the princess ones. We went through a massive pink phase as well and of course Aurora was the favourite being blonde (like her) and in all pink. At five years old I think the highlight of her short life was meeting Cinderella, Belle, Snow White and Aurora at Hong Kong Disneyland. Mind you she was just as excited to meet Alice in Wonderland.
Now however, at the ripe old age of 6, she has gone off pink so much so that none of her new clothes are pink and she doesn’t do Princesses anymore. In fact she requested scary masks and costumes for her birthday and she and her sister regularly walk around the house pretending to be zombies.
My point (yes, I do have one) is that it’s a phase and they grow out of it.
loading...
Kate, that is brilliant! I grew up on all the fairy tales and still read them to my girls, who may or may not have a small obsession with Snow White, Ariel and now Rapunzel LOL. I turned out a feminist, my girls probably will too, and its nice to know that these stories have their origins in the words of wise women:)
I think it’s fine to let your kids watch and learn from fairy tales, but it is just as good to temper that mindless TV watching with a discussion about the actual characters and stories ie/ yes Cinders was hard working and honest!!!!
loading...
Great article and thoughts being put forward! I recently went to the Disney princess exhibition at the ACMI in Melbourne and was fascinated to read that the original version of ‘Beauty and the Beast’ was designed to help young women bethrothed to older men to become more comfortable with the idea of their pending marriages/husbands.
loading...
This is totally off the topic of Cinderella and the old fairy tales… but it seems to me that just the word ‘princess’ seems to make many mothers and fathers cringe these days.
Although I love the fairy tales I will admit to usually disliking the word ‘princess’ as it makes me think more of ‘pretentious little so and so’…. but what about the ABC tv show ‘The Little Princess’. Now there is a Princess who is so ordinary and funny. I think it is a great show for kids, brilliant writing and I love how they have created a ‘Princess’ who gets around in a tatty dress, bare feet and crazy shabby hair. She’s terrific.
loading...
And Kate, I would LOVE to read your PhD when it’s finished. It sounds fascinating.
loading...
Seconded! When are you expecting to complete it?
loading...
Thank you! My doctorate is actually in two parts. The first is a novel, a retelling of the Rapunzel fairytale interwoven with the scandalous life of one of its first tellers, the 17th century writer Charlotte-Rose de la Force. It’ll be published in May next year .
The second part is a dissertation on the Rapunzel tale through the centuries and how it has been retold to suit each teller’s political or religious biases. I’ll probably publish some of this at least as articles.
loading...
This was such a great post. You have inspired me to read more fairy tales and reacquaint myself with them. I just bought Hans Christen Andersen for my Kindle.
loading...
I absolutely adored fairy tales as a child and I do think you can learn a lot from them. You might not get all of the analogies or messages of the story depending on how old you are but they are for children of all ages. I do remember the feeling that went with fairy tales. I remember feeling happy and relieved when a character was freed or remember thinking how clever some characters were.
Although they are a fantasy or story, I remember worrying about how it would feel to have the expectation of being able to spin gold from straw. Unfortunately there are children carrying much heavier burdens every day. Even at a young age though it made me see that although life can be unfair that self-reliance can be really positive and that you don’t ever want to be in a position where you have to wait for someone to rescue you. Now that I am much older though you can see that not everyone can get by solely on the power of self-belief.
If you were in a position where you didn’t have such a happy childhood or you didn’t have as much choice as other children some of the fairy tales are an example of hope. I think Cinderella taught me that your circumstances in life can change and that there is more to value in life than just beauty. I think Cinderella really made me see how life can be most unfair but there are ways to get through and people who will support you (even when you least expect it) and to not give up.
If I do have children I will have fairy tales on hand and just see if they like them. I think a lot of kids do.
I too have read some of Angela Carter’s fairy tales while at uni and in parts they are quite confronting. I just have to say how wonderful it is to see people working on fairy tales as their thesis. It’s fascinating to hear the history of these stories but it also is interesting to see how we preserve story-telling in an era where technology can take place of physical story-telling. I think the experience of fairy tales today is very different to what it was when I was young.
loading...
My favourite story (although not a true fairy take) is the Paperbag Princess.
Princess Elizabeth plans on marrying Prince Ronald, who is practically perfect. A fearsome dragon destroys her kingdom, kidnaps Ronald, and burns all her clothes so that she has no choice but to wear a paper bag. Elizabeth follows the dragon and Ronald, and seeking to rescue her fiancé, challenges the dragon and totally outsmarts him. Elizabeth rescues Ronald, who tells her to clean herself up so she looks like a proper princess – he doesn’t even say thankyou!. Elizabeth realizes that she is better off without Ronald and sets off into the sunset to live her own life.
I’m already reading it to my 2yo daughter AND 4yo son. Hoping it will teach them both something.
loading...
I LOVE the Paperbag Princess. I dressed up as her for my year 2 book week, wearing an actual paper bag!
loading...
I directed a group of yr 8′s last year in a retelling of Grimms Fairy Tales. I was concerned abt placing all the girls in helpless princess roles but when you look beyond those main characters there are many great female roles in there. Also, the process of putting the play on with girls & boys equally responsible for their roles was more important than what they were saying. They are discerning. They get that this isn’t our world. They are being directed by a female drama teacher. Their mums are doctors, lawyers, writers, stay at home mums. It was just cool fun for them getting to act & dress up & meet new people.
loading...
Funnily enough, if I ever have kids, I’m hoping I could find a middle ground between Kate Forsyth and Peggy Orenstein. Both have really good points.
I love fairy tales; I am actually gearing up to (hopefully) do post-graduate studies on the origins of fairy tales. Like Kate, I think there is value in fairy tales for everybody. However, somewhere in the recent invention of child-centric hysteria, the stories have been transformed into something bad that they never were.
Peggy Orenstein recently posted a link on facebook about how even grapes were being packaged as a Disney Princess branded product. It is sad that, in many insidious ways, little girls are being conditioned to think that things are only ‘for them’ if it is pink and covered in princess motifs.
loading...
I make a point of buying the ‘male branded’ stuff for my daughter occasionally, because of just this fact! Eg in squeezie yoghurts you can buy the Princesses (girlie) or Toy Story (unisex) or Ben 10 (boys)… well even though my daughter doesn’t have the first clue as to who Ben 10 is, I buy the Toy Story and Ben 10 ones 9 times out of 10.
But it’s amazing how insidious it is, and how young they are when this conditioning starts to ‘win out’… my daughter will see something ‘princessy’ in the supermarket and start insisting that I buy it for her without even knowing what the contents are!
loading...
It is really scary. There is a particular Fisher Price toy that irritates me every single time I see it. Basically, a little boy has to hit plastic nails with a plastic hammer. It’s primary coloured and has a ‘wood’ and ‘metal’ coloured hammer. And then there is a girls version…. in candy-ish colours, with a coral-coloured mallet to hit the non-threatening bed bugs, instead of nails.
The idea that toddlers need gender distinctions for things as generic as grapes or yoghurts or a bash ‘em type game is very, very, very scary.
I really still don’t know if I want kids. But I will admit that I am slowly collecting a box of clothing, toys and books that doesn’t push any big gender distinctions for the potential kidlet, simply because it can be so hard to find anything that isn’t either for a ‘princess’ or a ‘warrior’.
loading...
I used to wonder about the colour preference necessity and get shirty about it. But after I read ‘Raising Girls” I learnt that colour preference in kids is mostly due to their brain development and the way it links up and activates (for lack of a better description) – hence the reason most girls will be drawn to the pinkish stuff. It explains clearly why boys have blueish/active preferences whilst girls have pinkish/nuturing preferences. Most of it isn’t conditioning, its neurological. And I think marketers utilise this knowledge to increase their sales.
loading...
There is also a lot of studies that indicate that colour preferences based on gender may be based on pseudoscience- Cordelia Fine breaks some of these down in ‘Delusions of Gender’.
I think that there are legitimate studies on both sides and the jury is still out, but for me, I just don’t like what has come to be linked with pink and princess aesthetics.
loading...
Interestingly enough, I have a daughter of my own who has just turned seven. I read her fairytales – both traditional and re-told, subversive and not, (we have a whole collection of Cinderella books as her name is Ella
I took her to see Tangled and we both loved it (though I think Disney sidestepped most of the problems of the Rapunzel story) – and if she wants a pink plastic princess I buy it for her. But only if she wants it. And she really doesn’t ask for them very often. I actually hate the Bratz dolls more than Barbie – she doesn’t have any of them! I think its natural for some (not all) little girls to have a pink, sparkly period and then to grow out of it – and my job as a mother is to understand that and on the one hand allow her to be a little girl and on the other hand teach her that she can be anyone she wants to be.
We make up stories together – what she really loves is to be the heroine of the story!
loading...
There is a common teaching techinque called “Lies to Children” which means you teach children things that are wrong or only particially correct with the future aim to explain the real truth later.
The common example is the rainbow. Everyone has seen the white light enter the raindrop, bounce twice and come out as rainbow colours. Of course, this example falls apart or fails to answer lots of questions as soon as they are asked? Why doesn’t the colour fromt he top of the rainbow wash out the colour from the bottom of the rainbow? Why is a rainbow curved? What happens
The ‘raindrop’ lie-to-children for a rainbow is simple a simple, wrong, explanation that on the surface makes complete sense. Jumping immediately to the real reason is impossible unless you first grasp and believe the incorrect reason. You can’t explain the depths of physics to a six year old.
Children’s stories are the same. Don’t expect them to be complex represenations of, for example, women’s liberation or the labour movement or a discussion on the benefits and pitfalls of industrialised society. It’s just a story for kids.
loading...
Cuss the no edit ability.
loading...
Haha.. my parents did the opposite (probably because my Dad is a scientist). Whenever we asked questions to complex things, we’d get the complex answer.
6 year old me: “Where do babies come from?”
Parent : “When a daddy’s sperm fertilizes an ovum in a mummy, it sets of a series of cell divisions that eventually result in a fetus. It attaches itself to some endometrial lining in the mummy’s uterus where it develops for around 9 months before being born.”
6 year old me: “…….oh, okay!” – resumes playing/hitting siblings/being annoying -
loading...
LOL. That isn’t a technique to teach, that’s a technique to befuddle!
loading...
Their logic was that if they told us ‘lies’, that would confuse us. This way, we learnt the truth from the beginning and we could ask more questions as we liked. Our parents just had a “no lying, except by omission” policy.
However, it did result in some awkwardness like asking Mum loudly in the supermarket line, “So, how did Daddy’s sperm get into you?” or yelling out things like “Owwww! My uterus!” upon falling over.
loading...
Miss 5 recently brought home a book from the school library about a princess who is raised with her 5 brothers alone by her father to be a knight. She trains hard in secret to be better than her brothers and succeeds in this but on her 16th birthday, her father holds a contest for her hand in marriage. She objects and competes in disguise. She wins of course and, after telling her father off, leaves the kingdom for a year before returning to her father who welcomes her home with a horse. Miss 5 absolutely loved it and we read it every night until it had to be returned. She always stopped at the page where the princess was training in secret and studied it. It was definitely a nice change from the ‘damsel in distress’. But she also does love her Disney movies, Cinderella is one of her faves
loading...
I love fairy tales, always have. I don’t think my love for them has affected me in any way. I’m 28, not married and that doesn’t bother me. I have never felt that I needed ‘rescuing’ as I have lived on my own and had to do everything, eg chop and spilt wood.
I still regulary watch my disney princess movies with my partner. I’m very lucky that he enjoys kids movies as much as I do. Our first date was to see “Up” and our second was to see “G-Force”
My favourite movies are the more recent ones where the female lead is more ‘active’ in her own life i.e Belle, Mulan, Rapunzel from Tangled and Red from Hoodwinked.
When I have kids I will happily let them loose on fairytales.
loading...
Yeah Dea… first one to mention Tangled! Now there is a fabulous modern retelling of a classic fairytale… right down to the motivation of the ‘evil witch’ being vanity! My not-quite 4 y/o daughter LOVED it… and so did I.
My daughter’s favourite books are the ‘princess’ stories (with no encouragement from me!) I want my girls to have positive female role models, but I think it’s OK for them also to have a bit of fantasy in their lives (and Miss almost-4 does understand the difference). And you know what… wanting someone to rescue you is not always a bad thing! I don’t condone total helplessness, but I do think some of us modern women think we need to be strong and in control *all the time* and we don’t ask for help when we are really struggling. So I’ve realised that teaching my daughters that sometimes you do need to ask for help and let someone ‘rescue’ you is not necessarily a bad thing!
loading...
Sounds like you’ve had the Sara Bareilles song “Fairytale” on repeat.
I don’t disagree with what you’re saying, but there’s nothing wrong with a bit of fantasy, and I think that deep down many women like the idea of being ‘rescued’, even if they do have the means to fend for themselves.
I love the world Walt Disney has created.
loading...
For a different view of fairy tales try Roald Dahl’s Revolting Rhymes. My favourite is Red Riding Hood (‘The small girl smiles, one eyelid flickers…’) but my 5 year old disagrees, as RRH is not very nice to the third little pig.
loading...
I absolutely LOVED Roald Dahl’s Revolting Rhymes when I was growing up. In year 4 we did a play of Cinderella but it was based on Roald Dahl’s version and it was so much fun and better than the Disney version!
loading...
Me too, especially his treatment of Goldilocks!
loading...
Before my daughter could read I used to just change the endings. None of the Princesses ever needed rescuing, nor did they live happily ever after just because they married a good looking fella. They were real women. Now of course she can read herself so I have to try to influence her thoughts more subtly. I choose books and stories for her that have strong female characters. One of my favourite picture books, which was given to her, is “The Princess and the Packet of Frozen Peas” by Tony Wilson and Sue deGennaro. But mostly I stick with stories that have nothing to do with adult love. I mean, there’s plenty of time for that later!! Fairies and puppies are fine for now.
loading...
I love the Princess and the frozen peas, such a gorgeous book!
loading...
Fairy Tales are at their best when they are dark and subverting the norm. Their are some fabulous retellings of Fairy Tales – Angela Carter, Marina Warner and Margo Lanagan. These women reclaim fairy tales, in a most un-Disney, not PG way.
I do read Disney tales to my 4 year old, but they are not the only versions of Fairy Tales she has and I limit the Disney merchandising, which I think is far more problematic.
But I’d rather read her Beauty and the Beast (moral – look beyond the surface to discover the true values of someone) than plonk her in front of a Barbie DVD!
loading...
Check out Der Struwwlpeter – it’s a collection of very subversive old stories that a man wrote for his son after being frustrated with what was available. Stories of things like a girl who played with matches and got burnt, or a boy who teased a dog so the dog bit him and ate his sausages. I love how matter of fact it is.
loading...
OMG…we had Struwelpeter as kids….utterly terrifying, the accompanying
pictures are awful…it has pictures of kids getting their thumbs cut off, and
running around with their hair on fire!….that bloody book never failed to
give me nightmares….brrrr!
loading...
I so agree. Have you read Margo Lanagan’s ‘Tender Morsels’? Isn’t it brilliant? I love Robin McKinley’s retellings too – particularly ‘Deerskin’. If you haven’t read it, you really must. and try reading Marina Warner’s study on fairytales, ‘From the Beast to the Blonde’. Its beautifully written and very illuminating.
loading...
Thank you for this article Kate – nice to see a balanced article on fairy tales. I love fairy tales, my friends love fairy tales, and we attend Uni. We do not need men to ‘rescue’ us, we just love the stories. They’re classic. My little cousins love the stories to. I feel like there’s to much made of this issue, let kids be kids and enjoy these stories. The ‘i want to be a princess stage’ doesn’t last very long at all and i’m yet to see someone suffer damaging effects.
loading...
Thank you, Kate – great article!
loading...
Kate, great article!
i’m also doing my doctorate on fairy tales, nice to see someone else around
loading...
Ooooh really? I thought I was all alone. Where are you doing your doctorate and what’s your subject? Mine is Rapunzel
And yes, many people do find it a bit odd that a grown woman is studying fairytales … but they are fascinating!
loading...
Kate- loe this take on the fairy tales! Makes me love them even more
loading...
I meant I LOVE this take hehe- why can’t we edit anymore?
loading...
Agreed! Not being able to edit is KILLING ME.
loading...
or to be able to like comments!
loading...
just click the thumbs up next to the comment to like it!
loading...
Fairy tales obviously haven’t affected this little girl… I LOVE IT http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rbMHLDY1pA&feature=player_embedded
loading...
If anyone is familiar with the movie mean girls, this is a funny disney adaptation using the disney princesses, very funny
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQeTlxhhmEo&feature=player_embedded
loading...
That is just about the best thing I have ever seen. Thanks so much
loading...
When i was younger i never cared if the girl ended up with the prince. i just loved the music and singing.
loading...
Yeah, there is so much more to these fairy tale stories than just the ‘happily ever after’. Half the time I never thought about those endings, just loved the fantasy of it all.
loading...
How do you wrap up a relationship story for children without marriage?
Marriage is a symbol of committment. Would The Little Mermaid work better if Ariel and the Prince (who’s name excapes me) just said “Hey, now we can date?” or Airel says “Hey, you can be my primary consensual non-monogamist sexual partner” or “Let’s get unionised civilly! Huzzah!”
Marriage is a well understood concept by kids. It wraps up the story – the relationship is complete when they commit to each other.
loading...
his name is Eric!
loading...
Doesn’t it say something that I can remember the Princess’ name and not the Princes? She’s obviously the protagonist in the story. He’s a himbo prop, unaware of what’s going on the entire movie!
loading...
Yep I agree. This is why I didn’t like Pocahontas as a kid. Young girls want to see these princesses married!
loading...
The original The Little mermaid is not so happy. The Prince (Disney name – Eric) marries the princess and the Little Mermaid dies, turning into a spirit. She will earn her way into heaven by doing good deeds and gaining a human soul. The moral was nothing to do with marriage or commitment, but the importance of Christian values. It’s another an example of how stories are used to support the accepted cultural imperative of the time.
Children are able to accept a wrapping up of a tale that doesn’t involve marriage – what’s wrong with friendship? Look at the Toy Story films.
loading...
When you say the story is about the importance of Christian values, you are referring to the original story, not the Dinsey film.
Are you suggesting the next remake of The Little Mermaid remove the love aspect of the story? That marriage should be scrubbed from all children’s movies?
If we’re going to over analyse stories, isn’t Toy Story an anti-atheist story – there is an all powerful God, we shouldn’t doubt his love and all work together to support him and maintain a society?
Or is it a story about toys?
loading...
I wasn’t over-analysing the story, I was merely pointing out the orighinal story ending as written by Hans Christian Anderson and that it is about doing good deeds to gain a human soul; an ethos in keeping with its time. It’s a very a different ending and message in the Disney version because, basically, times change.
As for Toy Story, the films are about friendship and loyalty and the characters happen to be toys.
I didn’t suggest getting rid of marriage at all, but that there are alternatives.
loading...
I disagree that marriage is the only or best way to wrap up a relationship in a way that’s understandable for kids.
With the number if kids living with well-functioning single, gay, unmarried or other types of parents these days, I reckon they’re probably well placed to understand a number of models of relationships that are ‘happily ever after’.
The modern fairytale model of (young, white, rich, beautiful, hetero) relationships normalises only one style of relationship. And while its good not to over analyse, kids do tend to see things in black and white so I think its important not to be biasing their perceptions and values if we dont have to.
Fairytales would be a great vehicle for teaching basic lessons about diversity and tolerance, for example – but they often do the opposite.
loading...
The old Disney movies – granted. Sleeping Beauty and Snow White are pretty old fashioned & inappropriate role models for my daughters. But I don’t expect them to be – Snow White is a story with fun singing and lots of animals.
However: Ariel (white), Jasmine (Arabic), Pocohontas (Native American), Mulan (Chinese), Tiana (African American) – the modern Disney Princesses are not white rich Christians. The closest must be Belle, a poor white Christian.
If a story has a moral about friendship but not diversity, is it wrong? If a story is about diversity but doesn’t specifically mention homosexual relationships, is it perpetuating bias?
Can a story ever win on all fronts?
loading...
I did grow up in love with the original fairy tales, and the Disney versions did sway me into loving the glamourized versions even more, and I spent my childhood day dreaming about being a princess, married, etc.
I also had a pretty horrible home life and used to escape into the fantasies, which had a negative, although soothing effect- they socialised me to an extent but also to believe in Prince charming, and beauty = success.
However, life dealt me the “normal” experiences: domestic disharmony, bodily imperfections, unplanned pregnancy, heart ache and poverty..I’m sure these wouldn’t have been so devastating had I not been inculcated with a belief in the perfect Disney princess.
Later when I became a mum to a daughter I was very aware of these innocuous childhood influences, and made a point of not harping on about the inevitability of marriage,dependence on a spouse; people should be judged by their actions and not their appearance etc.
But we still enjoyed the movies for their entertainment value, and my daughter’s main hero became Mulan funnily enough! I think the feminist values taught at school also have helped shape her into a very strong yet feminine woman, of whom I am obviously very proud. I’d say don’t be afraid if your daughter loves the old Disney style princesses, but show the others as well, and do get your hands on the original and alternate fairytales if you can. Sarah, I learnt about the originals and how the patriarchal influences that came in at Uni in an Arts Degree course…Read some Angela Carter for a brilliant post-feminist take on some of your favourites, she is brilliant!
loading...
But still in movies today the men get to have all the fun fighting aliens , saving the world etc while the women wait at home or need to be saved.And when there is a heroine she is more of a geek fantasy.
Women are often portrayed as bimbos who can’t live without their man. I want to get married one day but it isn’t going to be my one and only goal in life. A big bonus , but not everything !
I love Mulan , Belle , Jasmine and Giselle from Enchanted ( she saved Patrick Dempsy ! ) I want my daughters and nieces to know that you can be both : sensitive , romantic , yet feisty , smart and kick ass !
loading...
As a child, I found the classic Disney stories really frustrating and boring, to this day I still don’t like Snow White, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty and the other original Disney princesses.
However, I adored Ariel, Jasmine, Mulan, Belle, Esmerelda and Nala (I know she’s a lion, but she kicks arse.) These princesses, despite the fact that they are still rescued by a prince have a much more active part in their own story. Ariel does everything she possibly can to get her man rather than just sitting by and waiting for him to notice her [and yes, I am aware of the negative connotations which goes along with that, changing yourself for a boy and the like but all I picked up as a child was her amazing, feisty personality...], Jasmine refuses to sit around the Palace as her future suitors talk about her as a piece of meat. She has a tiger and is not afraid to speak her mind. Mulan is pretty self explanitory, she went to war and out performed all the men. Belle was intelligent and was the saviour in this case, saving first her father then the beast/prince and his servants. Esmerelda was a veritable badass, surviving on the streets of Paris and saving Quasimodo from his master, prejudices and hatred. Nala is a lion, man. And she convinces Simba to come back. She rocks.
Basically, not all Disney princesses are bad… and as a child you don’t really notice/talk to your children about reality vs fantasy. Love doesn’t come in the form it does in Disney films/rom coms. Discussion is always essential.
loading...
Hi Kate! I’m really interested in all this sort of stuff – would you mind letting us know where you got the info about the original fairy tale characters? It’s something I’d love to read more about. Thanks!
loading...
I’ll second that – any books you’d recommend, Kate?
loading...
Hi Sarah
There are so many wonderful books and studies on fairylore it can be hard to know where to start. A favourite of mine is ‘Sssh! Don’t Tell the Grownups: The Subversive Power of Children’s Literature’ by Alison Lurie. Also ‘From the Beast to the Blonde’ by Marina Warner, plus any book by Jack Zipes. Enjoy!
loading...
Thank you!
loading...
I’m 24 years old. The majority of my friends (most of them educated, but not all) see marriage as the best thing that could happen to them as it will save them from the lives they are living. Majority of them are living good lives but they still think that having a Prince Charming in their life is the key to everything. Girls who are single at 24 or 25 are seen as lonely. Because I do everything on my own, most of my friends concluded that I never wanted to get married. But I do, eventually, I’m just not going to wait around for a guy before I do everything. I think fairytales influence us too much. Even if you think it hasn’t, look at your friends or their sisters and daughters. We live in a society where we are expected to stand on our husband’s own two feet.
loading...
I am just like you . Many put their life on hold until they find ” the one ‘ .
loading...
Fairy tales where the ultimate prize for the female lead character is to be rescued and to settle down and live happily ever after without actually acheiving anything herself, bother me.
Also the way they regularly link up the characteristics of old, wicked and female (bad). And also the characteristics of young, beautiful and female (good).
Mature women continue to be stereotyped as bad, ugly and sexless in today’s society, despite the evidence that in most societies, they are the strongest positive contributors to social cohesion.
And as for the beautiful girl waiting to be rescued, give me Layla from Dr Who anyday.
loading...
I never liked the fact that a man’s sole purpose in the fairy tales was to lay down his life for the “helpless” princess.
I despise useless people and the notion that these indulged people were more important than the proletariat class.
loading...
The only fairy tale I have read to my eldest daughter (4) is Cinderella (and a very basic Usborne version at that). She knows who the others are and the basic story lines, but she doesn’t want to ready the books yet as she is aware of the ‘scary’ factor (wicked queens and spells etc). Fair call I say at her age.
I read all the fairy tales when I was a girl and I will say with 100% certainty that none of them affected the way I think – about ANYTHING! Just as I never thought that I would make friends like Moonface or Silky from The Magic Faraway Tree. A series which I adored, and would dive into the characters, but I always knew they were just that, CHARACTERS. Just like Cinderella and her princess friends from Disney.
C’mon people out there who get all upity about Cinders and co… seriously, they are characters, from fictional stories with a huge make-believe component to them.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again… as Einstein quoted ‘Imagination is more important the knowledge’ and I see nothing wrong with fairy tales and their leading gals, it’s just fantasy and fantasy is great for imagination!
loading...
Oops, that was me above
loading...
I do agree with you Cordeline, but i think the problem with today’s fairytale princesses is that the pink, plastic, blonde, passive princess is absolutely eveywhere. I think the marketing is more pervasive than it was 30 years ago. Maybe im just mis-remembering, but they didn’t seem to be everywhere when I was a kid, but they do seem to be everywhere today. Same with boys superhero/cartoon characters
loading...
Oh I totally agree with the over promotion of the characters in the form of toys and what-not. And with two daughters of my own, I have a special ‘no-licensed products’ rule in terms of clothing and lunch boxes etc etc. I hate it all. But I would never take my dislike of all these things and turn them against the story characters themselves (not suggesting you would either!). It’s the damn marketing companies, not poor ole’ Cinders and her friends
loading...
I was about to say the same thing, right down to the Magic Faraway Tree reference!
I still enjoy reading fairy tales, eg The Once Upon A Time Series, Robin McKinley’s re-writings of a couple of them, etc. When I’m overseas I go to childrens sections of bookstores and look for their versions of both western fairy tales, and their local tales (I came across an Indonesian version of The Little Mermaid once which had a picture of the mermaid and the Prince cuddling in a clam, looking decidedly post-coitus – I was shocked!))
I LOVE stories. All of them!
loading...
When asked by a pushy mother what she should do to help her son develop a brain like Einstein’s, he famously replied, ‘Read him fairytales.’ ‘Then what should I do,’ the pushy mother asked blankly. ‘Read him more fairytales,’ Einstein replied.
loading...
Even as a kid I didn’t like the heroines to be helpless and weak.I loved strong women to look up to . I did love Disney movies and still do .
loading...
The thing I find most upsetting about modern Fairy Tales is that finding a husband is the ‘ultimate end’ after which life can be summed up as ‘happily ever after’. I think most women are impacted by this paradigm to some extent…. I don’t know many people who don’t see marriage as some sort of goal without which their life will somehow not be as complete as others. Disney definitely has a lot to answer for….
loading...
Yes, I’d love to see what happens to Cinderella and Prince Charming a month or a year down the track. Would their worlds be so far apart that the marriage is ultimately doomed, or would opposites attract?
loading...
Hmmm, I can’t really agree with blaming Disney & co for the idea that
“…finding a husband is the ‘ultimate end’ after which life can be summed up as ‘happily ever after’.”
I think we have a natural, biological urge to pair off (arguably driven in part by the urge to procreate), which is formalised in Western culture as marriage.
I do, however, take issue with the stereotyped “helpless female in need of rescuing by a man” concept enshrined in too many fairytales. Yay for the strong kick-ass heroines!
loading...