By MIA FREEDMAN
Yesterday a blog post called “Two flat whites and a bawling child, please” caused all sorts of a commotion on a news website when a woman wrote about an unfortunate experience she and her partner had in a cafe.
It was brunch time on a weekend. The coffee was great and the couple were in the process of deciding what to order but there was a problem. The screaming child sitting with its parents a few tables away was messing with their chi (not to be confused with their chai, that’s something altogether different and they were drinking lattes anyway).
After 10 minutes of this, during which time other patrons looked to be similarly disturbed by the pitch and intensity of the child’s screaming, the writer’s partner got up to say something to the child’s parents. The response he received? “Chill out, mate,” from the baby’s dad, followed by some abuse (on the way out) by the mother who loudly called the man “a despicable human being” before giving him an artfully raised middle finger.
I’ve been both parties in that scenario and neither is pleasant. Wait, I’ve been the couple who had their brunch disturbed and I’ve been a parent with a child who loses it. But I’ve never just sat there and expected my fellow patrons to deal with it.
Why should they? Of course, kids sometimes lose it in public places; supermarkets, public transport, shopping centres, doctor’s surgeries, airports, planes, cafes and restaurants… I don’t think there’s a public place where one of my children hasn’t lost it.
My modus operandi when this happens is always the same: try not to lose my own shit while applying all available harm minimisation tactics. This is often hard. Your kid is distressed or being bratty and you’re instantly forced to juggle their immediate needs with the needs of those around you not to be majorly inconvenienced. You need to stop the screaming/tantrum while quickly weighing up the relative merits of doing this without giving in to whatever demand it might be and setting yourself up for a future world of pain (eg: “Ok, ok, you can have another choc-top, just please get up off the ground and stop screaching like a poltergeist.”)
In the case of a screaming baby, it’s different. You need to urgently try and establish the problem (hungry? in pain? cold? windy? hot? thirsty? overtired? needing a cuddle? just grizzly?) while simultaneously minimising the inconvenience you’re causing to those around you. All under the tsk-tsk gaze of The General Public. No pressure!
But whether you’re a parent or not, it’s unpleasant to listen to another child’s tantrum or a baby’s distressed cries.
So if I’m in a public place and it happens, I will always remove myself and my child from the shop/cafe/restaurant. It’s only polite. And I find the change of scene can often provide a welcome distraction to your child and help them momentarily forget why they’re losing it. Jolt them into a different headspace.
If you’re on a plane or public transport or in the middle of a supermarket, it’s not always possible to leave. But in a cafe? It is.
It’s also the polite thing to do and WE NEED MORE POLITENESS IN THIS WORLD don’t we?
In the original post, the woman writes about how the restaurant manager came over to see if everything was OK and noted that this particular couple often sat there with their baby screaming, disturbing other customers. It put the staff in a terribly difficult position, he explained. Imagine the potential headlines for asking parents to shut their baby up? That’s not even legal.
Some restaurants – like this one in London – tried to charge patrons a ‘kid tax’ of around $5 per child, even babies. Like corkage. The Huffington Post reports:
When 34-year-old mother Natasha Young got her check at Cosmo Restaurant in South London’s Croydon, she noticed an extra £3 (around $5) on the bill. She asked about it, and was informed the fee was for bringing her 6-week-old son along, the London Evening Standard reported.
In the US, one restaurant has banned children altogether. From MSNBC:
Owner Mike Vuick opened the restaurant nine years ago. Young children have become an increasing issue in that time, he says. But don’t accuse Vuick of hating kids — his problem is mostly with the parents.
“Parents have gradually diminished their cooperation,” he said, adding that the new policy is strictly in response to customer complaints.
“This is a three-part issue. One is the increasing number of small babies that can’t be controlled. They can’t be quiet and really they can’t be expected to.”
The second factor is kindergarten-aged kids who “have shown increasingly poor manners.” And lastly he blames parents, who “act like we’re the ones being offensive” when staff members ask them to calm their children down.
Many point to Europe where kids are practically brought up in restaurants, bars and cafes. This is true. But I’ve never seen a badly behaved child – even a toddler – eating out with their parents. Something that prompted American writer, Pamela Druckerman, who was living in Paris to write the parenting book, “Why French children don’t throw food.”
True that.
So what’s the answer? Do some parents need to be more considerate (let’s not turn this into a parents vs non-parents debate because there is a HUGE spectrum of behaviour displayed by those of us with kids, you can’t lump us all together)? Do we all need to be more tolerant?
What do you think? Should restaurants be able to charge parents to take their kids to restaurants? Should they be able to ban children altogether?
Mia discussed this issue on the Today show this morning. The topic begins at the 2.37 mark.








Comments
366 Comments so far
And don’t get me started on the smart-phone parents who just give their kids a video on their smartphone and turn the volume up to full. How is that being considerate of other patrons? And it’s not just in cafes but also on busses, trains, etc. Having a child is life changing. It is a joy. But parents who think their child will not change their lifestyle are kidding themselves. Why not take your kiddy catch ups to each other’s homes and invest in a Nespresso machine.
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I’ve read this article, and the thousand and one subsequent comments, and what I can’t work out is when cafes and restaurant dining became a requirement of ‘normalcy’ or when coffee and foccacias became such an integral part of life?
When my children were young, my days were almost solely focused on meeting their needs. That is what ‘normal’ for a mother of young children is.
As they got older, my role as a mother grew to involve not only being their primary provider/nurturer, but to educate them too. So my ‘normal’ involved outings where good behaviour was praised and sometimes rewarded, and unacceptable behaviour dealt with straight away. I don’t recall a lot of cafe visits during this time. In my experience the best lesson learning is done when the subject is engaging; my kids learnt about sitting quietly for periods of time from visits to the library where they listened to stories that excited them and that held their interest, not to boring ‘mum talk’ at cafes.
While everyone seems to be harping on about having consideration for parents and diners alike, I’d suggest more consideration for children is what’s really needed. That doesn’t mean letting them scream in restaurants, that means remembering that they are little people with not much control over their life and that a routine is vital to their happiness and contentedness. Don’t put your need for caffeine over their need for lunch and a nap. Don’t put your desire for risotto and a gossip over their need to learn, play and explore. You chose to have children, accept your role as a mother, and just like any other job, arrange time off (through babysitters, partners, family, friends etc) where you can embrace your role as a woman, friend, wife, whatever.
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This reminds me of one occasion I chalk up as successful, when my 3yo DD was throwing a tantrum in a supermarket, and for once, I remembered to calm down, get to her eye level, wait her out calmly, and then speak softly. She stopped. It worked. She did *not* get what she was asking (yelling) for.
However, I felt horribly judged during the 5-10 seconds I spent merely crouched in front of the pram, waiting for her inevitable need to draw breath. I felt like I must look like an incompetent mother, showing respect to an irretrievably rude toddler i.e .being ‘walked all over’. However, I personally feel far *less* authoritative (in hindsight!) when I scream at the top of my lungs and say things like, “That’s it, you’re spending the rest of the afternoon in your room!” What is the way around this? Why do I feel guilty for using the tactics that I know, logically *and* from experience, will solve the problem more quickly and teach my child a valuable lesson far more effectively?
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I was at an event where a young baby/toddler was crying. The mother who had another child with her, was trying to calm the baby. An usher at the event came over and picked up and removed the baby from the mother. She was horrified, as were my husband and myself. i would sooner put up with a crying baby/ toddler than the fear of a stranger picking up and removing my baby.
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This story has made everyone more aware of their kids behaviour in public – and possibly more critical of other peoples kids in public!
I met 2 friends and their kids for morning tea yesterday. Between us we have 10 children ages ranging from 6-14. We met in the food hall where the kids had milkshakes and we sat at the table next to them and had coffee. The kids were well behaved but when 10 kids laugh it can be a bit noisy. We were constantly reminding them to keep the volume down, but as we were in the food hall where is usually really noisy anyway (hardly a little cafe) and they were only chatting and laughing and making no more noise than 10 women chatting and laughing would we didnt think it was a problem.
Until a woman came and sat at the table right next to them and whipped out her laptop and started working. And looking over, shaking her head and looking really annoyed by our kids. Seriously, the entire food hall was otherwise empty, she had her choice of maybe 40 other tables, many nowhere near us, but she chose to sit next to 10 children and then shake her head and be visibly annoyed by their chatter and laughter.
She made us feel so uncomfortable we hurried up and left. But I was left feeling really annoyed because if she really wanted peace and quiet she had other options – a cafe, the library across the road, the other side of the food hall! We were being respectful by taking our 10 kids to the food hall for morning tea which is always chaotic and we were not cluttering up a cafe and being noisy in there. Some people are pretty intolerant and really expect the world to revolve around them and their peace and quiet!
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That’s ridiculous – talking and laughing is completely different to parents ignoring a tantrum and high pitched screaming. Sounds like that woman was looking for something to be annoyed about.
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I am a parent who frequents cafes. Generally my kids know how to behave but they have been known to throw the odd wobbly, as children do. People, even childless, overwhelmingly are generous, making allowances for them, as I do for other kids in restaurants. Others ask politely for another table, at which point i would be mortified and would quietly go and pay for their coffee. Then are the ones who loudly and aggressively tell you that your child needs to be disciplined. They get a defensive mother and often, told to chill out. No one responds well to aggression, least of all a stressed out mum with a crying kids. Some tolerance and / or manners is always appreciated
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I think a lot of people responding have missed the main point- my understanding from what I read above is that the parents were not perturbed by the screaming and were not trying to placate the child but were simply ignoring it. Most people would have empathy for parents trying to placate a distressed child- but parents ignoring it?? I would find it upsetting on behalf of the distressed baby, not just the horrible noise. I have 2 kids and NEVER would I have left them to scream without trying to soothe them, and clearly disturbing everyone around them. It’s straight out rude and inconsiderate. People below are being a bit facetious, suggesting that some require perfect peace in which to enjoy a coffee. Nonsense- no-one minds ambient noise but there are some noises that are a lot harder to tolerate than others. A screaming child is a seriously AWFUL noise-for everyone! Worse than loud talking on the phone, or loud laughing. The mother in particular, clearly has poor manners- giving the bloke the finger on the way out?? Indicates a sense of entitlement and generally rude person to me. One of those “The baby will fit in with ME, i’m not changing my life for a baby” types. Like most of the mums below, I would just do my best to distract and placate my screaming baby but if unsuccessful- get the heck out of there ASAP. Clearly the baby needs to be elsewhere.
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what if it was a disabled child making all that noise, would you have a go at the parents for something that is often out of their control, have some understanding
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Then the parent shouldnt be upsetting the kids routine.
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If my child started to disturb other people I would remove them immediately. Its just something Ive been picky about. We didnt even go out for dinner when my youngest started walking as she refused to sit still and wanted to run around our table in the restaurant. It was dangerous apart from anything else. So until she could sit at the table with good manners we stuck to picnics or bistros wuth a play area.
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I’ve had a bit of a think about this article. I often find topics like this daunting because I don’t have kids myself (yet) and some commenters can get a bit snarky about that… The other day I was babysitting my six year old cousin. I woke up earlier than normal so his mum could get to work and decided to get a coffee from my local cafe (I had taken the little one to the park). I go to this cafe all the time and the owners and staff are lovely. I found myself feeling nervous that my cousin would do something to annoy people. While I was waiting for the coffee, my cousin got curious about what a woman at a nearby table was eating and wanted to look. My stomach dropped to my feet and I took his hand and distracted him with the menu. It would have been rude for him to inspect the poor woman’s meal – that is obvious! We were in that cafe for about five minutes waiting for my (take-away) coffee and I felt on-edge the whole time!
I know I’m an amateur, but I can’t imagine how a cafe visit with a little one would be remotely relaxing! I still find screaming tiresome, but don’t get annoyed unless the parent/carer isn’t trying to remedy the situation…
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I’ve read all the comments, and I know what the problem is. No matter what side of the fence you’re on, it’s all about “My Rights”. Maybe we could all take a step back from “My Rights”, and have a little tolerance for those whingy babies, loud talkers, messy eaters; or just stay home.
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It’s happening in New Zealand too:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=10861139
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Really, is this such a big problem?? I’ve been on both sides of the fence too, but I have to say that I’ve never witnessed a parent simply ignoring a screaming, noisy, irritating child. I would say that 99.9% of the time this parent would be desperately trying to silence, calm, cajole this child and when all else has failed, making a quick as possible exit from the table.
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When my boy (now 3 1/2) was an infant, I loved nothing more than meeting up with my mothers group and sipping lattes in the local – child friendly – cafe. There were several cafes in the region but really only one that tolerated prams. So we went to that one. If any of the babies started howling, that mother was off like a rocket, walking outside with the child to calm him down. I don’t know how any parent can sit and ‘enjoy’ a coffee with a screaming child. Its horrible for everyone.
When the kids got to an age when they weren’t content to snooze in prams in cafes, we all migrated to takeaway coffees in the park. Lovely times indeed. When the weathe turned foul, we discovered ‘Play Cafes’. Wow what a genius concept. Indoor playground where kids are safe AND a lovely cafe for the parents to sit at. Yes you do of course have to supervise your children but to me that was the best of both worlds.
Now my boy is great again in cafes I find myself about to pop out boy2 and I’ll be relegated to the takeaway coffee int he park. But thats fine because it is whats best for me, for my kids and for everyone else.
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I think this is great – you still get to socialise with your friends but accommodate your children and other patrons too. Go you and all the best with number 2
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My latest thing is identifying people who think they’re ‘special’. The person who parks over your driveway so they can park closer to school pick up? Special. The person who changes lanes in front of you last minute without indicating? Special. The person who sips a latte, reading a magazine whilst their child runs around and around the table making lots of noise? Special. Too many people think they’re special and/or owed something these days. I feel I’m always mindful of my three boys’ behaviour, and I’d have removed my child if he was screaming in a cafe. So, I don’t really blame that guy for saying something to the parents of the child. Regardless of how tough a night they’d had the night before, or how many other cafe visits had gone awry, or how often their child screams on a day to day basis, it doesn’t matter. It would have been polite for them to remove the child and attempt to calm him/her down. If the patrons had seen them making an effort, I’m quite sure their empathy levels would have been right up there.
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I’ve been in both situations. With my kids I go to a “family” chain of coffee houses. When the baby has cried, one of us pops outside until she calms down. Easy. Patrons may have to put up with a few whinges until we got a bottle in, but never 10 minutes of non-stop crying.
On the other hand, as people have mentioned below, there are plenty of loud, rude human beings who will happily ruin your coffee like the pair that slurrped their ice coffees with a straw and then tinkled the spoon to get the last drops out. Phew, I thought when they’d finished, thank goodness. Then they ordered another round aarrgh.
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Everyone has the right to have a coffee/ meal at which ever cafe or restaurant they choose. I’ve been to restaurants and have had to sit next to some very obnoxious adults (no children in sight!).
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Everyone has the right to have an ENJOYABLE coffee/meal ar which ever cafe or restaurant they choose. They are paying for that experience, service, ambiance.
Maybe an extra charge on the bill, a norti fee, should be added to the patrons bill whose children ruin other patrons meal experience.
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And what about the loud phone talkers, the noisy eaters etc etc,blah blah blah, Am I going to ask for a discount because I didn’t get to sit in absolute silence, admiring the perfect scenery. People are living their lives and kids, noisy eaters, rude people, loud talkers, whatever are all a part of your little world if you decide to step outside your front door. Better get used to it.
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That’s what I’m saying, everyone else. Adults can ruin your meal just as easily as children. Can we have an extra charge for the swearers, the loud talkers, the badly behaved adults……??
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Love your comment Annoymous! We are humans and we are entitled to use a cafe! Sometimes, its pissing rain and if you don’t mind I would rather not stand in a park and I don’t like Maccas food. I keep my baby as quiet as possible in cafes and go outside if possible.. Maybe people that cannot tolerate ‘noise’ should stay home and enjoy the peace and quiet of their own dining room. That way there will be no loud children, no pesky old people walking slow or holding up queues, no people talking loudly or laughing, no teenagers running past- just the quiet sound of you enjoying your own perfect behaviour.
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You’re only illustrating the point here. One person/baby ruining everyone else in the vicinities experience. Without caring about anyone else but themselves.
When did people stop being considerate of others?!
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But not everyone is put out by having a baby in the restaurant. I personally zone out when I’m not with my own children. Sometimes I think….thank God it’s not my child, or think about what the poor parent must be going through.
When I had my first baby I was living in the tiniest flat and was suffering from PND. I went to the park with my baby as much as humanly possible but sometimes I need a coffee and a huge slab of chocolate cake!
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I now avoid coffee shops & restaurants with small children & babies. It just stresses me out be with screaming babies & indisciplined children. If your children are unhappy, take them home or to a park. Better yet, go to Maccas where they can play & the mothers can have their coffee & a gossip.
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Un-disciplined. Not in.
SO I should encourage my children to eat Maccas should I? Maybe I want to eat a normal meal at a normal cafe. And not drink crap Maccas coffee. Here’s an idea! You go to Maccas.
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So are you honestly arguing that you should be able to ‘allow and ignore’ your children, leaving them to scream while you (only god knows how) enjoy your latte?
I think we are missing the point of this entire article… As someone who has worked in hospitality for over 10 years – I would be mortified if this behaviour was allowed by a parent in one of my venues. As Mia said – hop up and settle your child, then come back once everything is peachy.
If your coffee happens to run cold during that time, that is your problem – not mine.
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I don’t ignore my kids, and I don’t allow them to act like crazy people. What offends me is someone implying Mothers and Children are second class citizens who should be shunted off to Maccas whilst the childless reclaim the cafes.
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Considering you were so quick to correct someone else’s spelling, I would like to point out that in the context of your comment the words ‘Mothers and Children’ are not proper nouns, therefore they should not begin with capital letters.
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Anonymous – In my experience kids love macca’s and hate cafe or restaurants. If YOU don’t like the coffee don’t drink it – take your kids to the park then, they love that too. Save the cafe or restaurant for a no kid day/night.
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Why would you suggest Maccas over cafe food? At least most cafes have a healthy, good quality alternative. Also, Maccas playgrounds aren’t as prevalent as they once were, limited due to precious parents with control issues and penchant for lawsuits.
Anonymous likes good coffee. Emphasis on good. Misbehaving adults, pain in the butt adults, rude adults, loud adults, know-it-all adults are more prevalent in any public space but we don’t say to their partners/parents/colleagues/clients…Oh, just take them to the park. Take them to Maccas. Take them to Fasta Pasta and ostracise them from society because they aren’t neat and perfectly trimmed for public sensibility. I simply CANNOT deal with anybody who hasn’t the maturity or psychological acuity to connect complex emotions to words yet.
The parents of these children may be selfish. But so are the rest of you.
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I am a parent of 3 kids,yes they all spit the dummy and have hissys but you also be considerate of others – especially in venues where you can walk out (Cinemas, restaurants, cafes) and even in planes – move to the back of the plane to walk around and try and calm your child. I practiced attachment parenting so when they were super little there were just simply places I didn’t go or bother to go when their needs outstripped mine.
Now they are older (22, 15 and 9) I see parents out there who think its their right to inflict their screamer onto you. No its not about the glares, I know sometimes parents are fatigued, exhausted and at the end of their teether – couple into that the additional complexity of post natal depression – it can be really hard to focus on yourself let alone strangers.
I often think – it would be great to have child free (no one under 15) shopping centres or times that are child free in the centre. I totally agree with child free restaurants, hotels and some holiday venues, again if I am off with my husband child free trying to enjoy ourselves, the last thing I want is OPK (other peoples kids) ruining it for me.
This is not mummy bashing its about common courtesy. Sometimes are parents we need to put our childrens needs above that of our own (chai latte as opposed to your baby’s sleeping patterns,needs) and the needs (rights) of the public to have a mugacinno in peace.
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Great comment!!
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Child free shopping centres? Sounds like a new version of apartheid to me (I know exaggerated but you get the point).
Honestly, people have become really intolerant of children. I wonder if it’s moreso since it became acceptable for children to be seen as well as heard and corporal punishment has become less acceptable. I know some parents are very lax with their children, but this has always been the way, as well as some being authoritarian with their kids.
As for the needs/rights to have a chai latte or mugaccino, no one has that parent or not.
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I dont think people have begun to be intolerant of children, but more intolerant of parents who let their children misbehave. And quite rightly!
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Going out with small kids in tow takes some planning. Sometimes I might make an impromptu visit to a cafe but only knowing that my toddler will handle it well. So therefor if he is grizzly, tired, sick of shopping I’ll miss out that time. But if the outing seems to be going well then I take my opportunity and run with it and quickly find somewhere to go eat. My kids backpack is always prepared with toys and snacks but mostly to keep the peace I interact with him so he doesn’t want to get up and walk around the tables etc.
With kids until their older visits to restaurants and cafes are usually short. Get in, order quickly, eat and go. Very rarely there is time to flick through a magazine or gossip with a girlfriend.
You just deal with it. Be prepared to cut and go if all hell breaks loose as the one thing that having kids has taught me- all good plans can go astray instantly. There will be a next time if it didn’t work out, just go with the flow and try again.
My pet peeve even before children and still is very much know is kids running around the tables or crawling underneath them. Safety issue let alone how frigging annoying it is for other diners to have your little one bumping by them every few minutes. It’s not a playground.
So yes tolerance is needed for parents but it’s a two way street and parents need to understand as well that others shouldn’t have to tolerate inconsiderate behavior.
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That’s me done. I’m never having kids. Endless debates about breastfeeding vs bottle feeding, breast is best but not in public (and it’s discreet, not discrete, please look it up!), discipline quandaries, unwanted advice from passing a-holes, entitled societies and ruining everybody else’s experience, never mind the mother/father are PAYING for their own experience. Everybody seems to be so caught up in what affects THEIR lives, THEIR experience, understanding and mutual courtesy seemed to have disappeared (notice I said mutual; parents remove screaming children, diners remove their holier than thou attitude and ego-centric tunnel vision).
I genuinely feel more empathy for a woman struggling to find a sense of normalcy via espresso, integrating her old identity with a loaded mother label, than weekenders aghast that they have to share airspace with an upset child. You were once a child too, and probably a mighty pain in the butt on and off, as you traversed your emotional teething years, trying to make the connection between feelings and knowing how to deal with them. The mother must share the same airspace non-stop, no matter how she’s feeling or how often she’s seen her partner (really seen him).
Instead of judging the harassed parents of your construed coffee house enemy, try the following question: Is there anything I can do to help?
Respect isn’t channelled into the coffee cups of the childless (whether you don’t have them or you’ve left them elsewhere). They paid. You paid. The vacancy on your child space is not an indicator of a superior standing or precedence over anyone else. It’s a two way street and maybe a little concern and altruism would do the world more good than child-free establishments. If it becomes the norm, I hope they extend the policy to include extremely loud people transmitting the details of their lives to their friends and everybody else in the room. Now, that’s annoying.
/rant
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Very well said! You sound like you’d make a fantastic parent!
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Thanks Anon-mum. That makes me feel better actually, as my brother thinks I would make a horrendous mother.
I don’t understand when and why we became so precious about our cookie-cutter “experience”. People seriously need some perspective and drop the entitlement act.
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Discreet vs discrete. Stand corrected there. All, my life I’ve been blind on this one. Well, you’ve got to fall victim to smartypants karma every now and then.
Still, the David Bowie tune was quite nice, no?
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I like the comments. I think there just needs to be a balance, I think if everyone tries to put other peoples interests first we can all meet pleasantly halfway. If the parent is considerate there will be a limit to the timeframe of the noise…if others are considerate they will show compassion for these parents. if either party acts differently to this then generally someone gets upset. I am not referring to a child with a disability here..that’s a whole different scenario and that’s where human compassion takes over I hope.
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People are leaving. The atmosphere is tense. Now you have someone actually asking you to quieten down your child…. Are these people so self centred that they have lost the ability to use common sense? Kids HATE sitting still in a cafe, mums!! I know its a big inconvience that your coffee has to be a take away…but how about giving the park a go!!
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Actually my daughter does like going to a cafe. We share a cake, she has a baby chino and I have a latte. We are in and out in less than half an hour. And surprise surprise we ALSO go to the playground, library and the beach. Sometimes we do more than one thing in a day. But thanks for the patronising advice.
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Your kids = your responsibility – remove them from the area/restuarant etc
Should I behave in a way that disrupted people I would be arrested for disturbing the peace – yes I’m aware the child/baby may not be able to control themselves but as the parent responsible for that child you can control the situation.
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Hard to know exactly what happened in that cafe, however, it doesn’t read like the parents were very proactive in managing the situation. I still order my coffee in a takeaway cup, ready to beat a hasty retreat if my 5 yo misbehaves although I haven’t fled a cafe since she was a toddler. It’s bad manners to stay in a restaurant if your child disrupts other patrons – parents are responsible for the behaviour of their children, and if the kids are unable to behave themselves, the child should be removed. BTW I took said 5yo to a pedicure appointment last week. I bought her a new sticker book on the way and she was beautifully behaved, and her lovely manners commented on by many of the staff.
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One place kids learn to behave is in church (and I don’t want to make it sounds like I go that often but I have half a dozen nieces and nephews who do). They learn pretty quickly that they have to be quiet during prayer etc. It absolutely IS possible to teach kids decorum from a young age. Of course there will be times when they’re just tired, grumpy etc and will not be quelled but generally speaking, if the kid is routinely screaming the place down and being bratty, it’s a sign of bad parenting, not a bad kid.
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I am a mother of two who is at a cafe every second day. I have had several complimentary comments on my childrens behaviour. I’m in a reflex anticipation of them being loud, bumping someone, knocking their feet on the bench seats, spillages, dropping cutlery, bending menu corners, staring at the people in the next table……could go on for days. When they were very young they could get restless sure and I totally agree with the removal of noisy or kids that just need a walk. Have done it many times. Have no issue with the article itself.
BUT…. the comments attached to the original article in question were horrible. Reading the zillion replies I was gobsmacked at the angry comments towards ‘breeders’. There were people who admitted to their friends ‘hating’ children full stop and looked for opportunities to give the evil stares or to comment to parents. There was an insane number of people who said children should be seen not heard. There were many who suggested cafes were for adults only. That their ‘experience’ was interrupted by a child who may have bumped their seat. Parents need to stay home as it was their choice to have kids and how dare we inflict them on the general public. God help you if you had a child with special needs becuase tough, you made them so suck it up.
I was totally appalled.
Here’s the thing… I am irritated when you spread out your extra large newspaper and its almost in my breakfast and you sit there for an hour sipping your one coffee. I am irritated when you talk on your mobile for ‘like’ hours about the cute guy that works at wherever. I am irritated that you bump me with your slouchy oversized handbag everytime you get in and out of your seat. I am irritated that you stir your coffee for a 3 SOLID MINUTES because we all know sugar takes that long to melt and will only melt if stirred at a frantic pace and the spoon must make loud contact will the entire glass surface. I am irritated that I am in the background of the selfie you just took and will post on facebook that minute. I am irritated that your group is insanely loud and I can’t hear myself speak.
Honestly its ridiculous, why should I be subjected to all those things? Just like the myriad of comments in response to that article I too am paying good money for my ‘experience’. But I live in a community and I know its not perfect and things can be irritating. I just accept that’s life and I live in a big world. If I don’t like it I should just stay home and buy a great coffee machine.
People need to chill out and go with the flow. So many people are self absorbed and are concerned only with their own self imposed bubble. You may find children irritating but I find you irritating. Should I approach you and tell you to stir quietly please, maybe fold your newspaper in half, take your phone call outside…?
And as for my child being seen and not hear, no chance in hell. I am trying to raise a self aware, honest, intelligent and compassionate person and they can talk all bloody day if they like. If you don’t like it, YOU stay home…you’re ruining MY ‘experience’.
I cann
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I am with you entirely. I agree with everything the original article said however what was drawn out from the comments on both this article and the bf one was a huge amount of vitriol directed at mums and kids which I found really shocking and hurtful. Suggesting that mums should stay at home as kids should not be out in case they ruin someone else’s day is extremely unkind as we are a big part of society.
My son can be difficult but I manage the situation by being prepared, watching like a hawk and bolting if he starts to scream. I think a high pitch scream is unacceptable but a bit of a cry or grizzle is part of life so people should just deal with it.
I am revolted by smokers, no one has ever asked if it bothers me if pollution is blown in my face bothers me so I am intruiged as to why parents with kids and bf mums need to be so aware of every person around them when they are completely focused on their kids. To those who either haven’t had them or have forgotten, you need to watch them intently every second of the day so perhaps through the sleepy fog they have more important things to focus on than scanning the public domain to see if anyone might be offended. I have difficulty carrying a conversation as my eyes are always on my son making sure he doesn’t whack his head, spill the honey, throw a toy at someone…
Next time you feel some annoyance that kids are nearby please remind yourself that they have the same right to be here as you do and give them a smile. I don’t think screamers should be ignored but I do think we all live together and need to have sme tolerance.
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I agree with you both, we’ll said.
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I’m usually not bothered by children misbehaving, I mean – we were like that once upon a time, no? Plus having children of my own I don’t judge them, I usually pity them, or want to help them. Obviously I don’t help them, the parent is usually stressed out enough without some stranger giving their kid something to quiet them down. Usually if I’m in the situation I remove the child, bribe them with something. When they cool off and relax, they are quick to apologise. Kids are kids, this isn’t new! One day all those judgmental individuals who gaze at you will have children of their own and realise the error of their ways.
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my parents loved taking me out with them (and friends and family) to restaurants for dinner. by the time i finished my soup (the same one for 5 years), i would tuck my legs in and promptly fall asleep!
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Yep, when my kids are acting up in a cafe, the only option is removal.
Sure, they protest. They kick. They scream.
There are tears. Recriminations. Remonstrations. Sometimes they beg.
But, I find, after I’ve kicked all the other patrons the f*ck out, my kids ARE often jolted in to better behaviour.
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Kitty Flanagan on this topic from her stand up comedy DVD: “I keep seeing 35 year old mums with toddlers in cafes. Is it just me that knows this?Kids don’t like cafes. Do you know what the clue is?The F#$%ing screaming they’re doing.”
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We eat out a lot with our twin 2 year old girls but its not a dragged out 5 hour affair where we sip one and pick at food all evening. High chairs are organised, we get there as close to their dinner time as possible. We order their food first and while we are waiting for the meals, we’ll colour with them or do stickers. Once they are fed, the portable DVD player comes out with a DVD that hasn’t been seen for a while and hubby and I eat our meals while the girls watch the movie. We get the odd disapproving comment (never had those in our day, lovely to have these things to entertain children etc etc) but I don’t care-we do what we have to do to have a nice outing. My kids are quiet for 45 mins while we eat our meal and we are all happy. They’ve never had a tanty (touch wood) but there’s no way I’d sit there and let them shriek for 10 mins plus… I’d get too shitty hee hee.
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I do hope that DVD player comes equipped with headphones so that the other patrons of the restaurant don’t have to listen to the DVD.
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I have found over the years that there are some places you take your kids and some places you don’t. We have travelled with our kids since they were babies and I don’t remember ever having a problem with them annoying anyone (and one of our kids has a disability and has been fine). If you want to eat in a cafe and your child is noisy… there are noisy cafes! I recommend taking your kids out and teaching them what is and what isn’t ok. We dine out in family restaurants (not the fast food kind). When my kids have been bad they are removed and if they are good we go back in. When they were babies we planned around sleeps and feeds to have them at their best.
Saying that you can see if a parent is ‘dealing’ with a situation or if they are ignoring it. If your parenting style is to just ignore your child screaming then you don’t have the right to make others listen to that. I find that if a parent is struggling say something nice and supportive to them don’t glare. But at the end of the day I stick with… some places you take them… some places you don’t!
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If I am in a cafe or on a plane & I see parents with an upset and crying child I feel sorry for them, not judge them. People should not be discriminated against just because they choose to take their child out of the house. Maybe people need to learn to empathise.
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ok, after reading post by people on here and pretty much all over the place, what strikes me is what a sense of precious entitlement most people seem to have! Oh I want to go to a cafe and not be bothered by children or breastfeeding mothers or I don’t know people wearing head scarves, old people, tall people, black people white people, short people, people with big noses people who talk too loud or too soft. Seriously JUST STAY HOME wrap yourself in cotton wool and sing soft kitty to yourself!
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None of what your talking about was ever mentioned in this article!! Stop ranting
“”breastfeeding mothers or I don’t know people wearing head scarves, old people, tall people, black people white people, short people, people with big noses people who talk too loud or too soft. “”
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“what strikes me is what a sense of precious entitlement most people seem to have”
But not *parents*, surely? Parents of screaming and/or misbehaving children don’t have any sense of precousness & entitlement anywhere at any time, do they?
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This is kind true about the Europe thing. I’m in Paris at the moment, and I’ve lived here too. Come to think of it, I have not seen any young children or babies in the restaurants/brasseries I’ve been to (a lot of them are too small for prams anyway). I have no doubt that French waiters here would not hesitate to tell parents to keep their child quiet/under control if they were disturbing other patrons.
It’s funny- I haven’t seen any mothers groups with a million prams anywhere (I think it’s too cold) or any prams/babies in cafes really. Also, hardly anyone has food allergies here, including children (we have French friends who have kids who were baffled about kids food allergies in aus).
Paris doesn’t seem to be a very child friendly place- there are no lifts in the metro system so the parents always have to carry the pram down/up many flights of stairs, or if its just one parent they often have to rely on a kind bystander to help them.
Okay rant over- just sharing my Parisian experiences!
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My husband is European and laments our son is at two, still a bit difficult to take out. It is expected that kids know how to behave and learn about manners, and one day we will get there. He keeps joking that he wants our kid to be like the little French kids, well groomed and well behaved.
Regarding the allergies, both my mother and sister in law developed a serious intolerance to lactose after moving here. They never had troubles before. My SIL cannot drink Australians wines without a serious reaction but is fine with French wines. They often have issues after rood that they never had before. i believe Europe has a much more stringent standard on preservatives and chemicals in food….perhaps this is the reason??? Not sure….
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The thing is that cafes are boring for kids. End of story.
Some kids can behave, sure. Mine weren’t too bad.
But kids do not want to sit for extended periods in boring places listening to adults talk. They want to play, run, yell and have fun. It’s just not fair. Once they’ve eaten and had a drink its time to go.
And just because your kid can sit still for hours and not complain doesn’t make you a better parent. It just means that your kid can suffer in silence.
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I strongly believe that my brother and sister and I are not coffee drinkers because we got so sick of “going for coffee” and being bored shitless when we were kids. Not at cafes, but at people’s houses. Or after dinner – coffee. Argh!
We went out for dinner a great deal as kids, and I think it’s how we ended up (comparatively) good eaters. We went to Asian restaurants (here and in Asia) a lot because of Dad’s work and never had a “kids meal”.
I keep an eye on my daughter, but I have seen the extreme of that – perfectly nice kids getting told off for absolutely nothing. That’s no fun for anyone. Just stay home if you’re going to do that.
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Absolutely on the no kids meals thing! My kids (and I have 4) will eat from the adults menu everywhere we go. And the poor chef never has to simplify his creation or take things out because my kids wont eat anything green or whatever. Fussy easter are created by parents catering to their demands. After a few weeks of whinging the penny will drop and they will realise that the meal mum serves is what they’re having for dinner and nothing else will be made for them later.
Sure they’re all allowed dislikes, as we are all, however I dont accept that kids are fussy eaters naturally. Its usually because its all they are served and know.
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The thing that struck me most about the article was the helplessness of the poor child …. apparently the noise was high pitched and persistent …. I couldn’t move past this — I hope the child is ok and not ill or distressed.
A good starting point in all tough situations is ‘seek to understand’ ….
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I’m out, reading this is frustrating. kudos to you perfect mothers, I’m certainly not one!
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OK… So….
I have worked in the customer service industry for almost ten years. From retail to restaurants. I can count on one hand the amount of children, I have encountered in that time, to chuck tantrums loud enough to make people uncomfortable.
Instead, I’ve had adult drunken verbal abuse in front of other eating patrons, I’ve been screamed at by people not happy with the returns policy clearly outlined. I have witnessed adults speaking to people like they are deaf, I’ve seen bunches of drunk adults so out of order who think they have the right to sexually harass my fellow female co-workers, other patrons have had to walk out because they refused to leave. I have been confronted with some of the most appalling behaviour by adults that are far more worse than a child who cannot verbalise what they need, so instead cry.
I now am a mother of two children under two who is house bound most days, weeks, months purely because of my kids routine. The amount of time and effort it takes for me to muster up and head out to lunch at a cafe can be overwhelming and usually means one of my kids will miss out on their sleep. I will get a tantrum because of it, but because of all the effort it took me to get out of the house in the morning, I would have most likely skipped breakfast and therefore starving and in need of food and water. So if a tantrum arises, I will hold which ever child needs to be attended to, rock and kiss whilst scoffing down my lunch in hope that they will soon settle. This doesn’t always happen. Usually the other child suddenly needs me and then it’s all over. I might add, even if I brunch on the weekend, I still head out alone with two in tow, as my partner works seven days a week, but I’m like every other human being who needs to get out and draw some energy from the outside world and sometimes that means I head out to have lunch and a coffee.
I don’t mean to offend or make any uncomfortable from my child’s intolerable tantrum, I too wished they would keep quiet for that hour at lunch so we could all eat sans tears, but please, spare me a thought, let me eat lunch without the guilt and stares and then I’ll be on my merry way.
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Sorry, but that doesn’t sound very relaxing. I honestly wonder why you would bother. I genuinely feel for you and your predicament. Far better to meet up with some other Mums and either meet at each others place or in a park or somewhere where both you and your kids can enjoy lunch.
And although you can’t see it, it is not fair to the other patrons of the cafe. It’s not their responsibilty that you lunch out for whatever reason. It’s not their responsibilty that you didn’t have breakfast. It’s just not.
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So by ‘fair’ that means I need to be mindful of you but yet other people not be mindful of me? Ok Georgia. That sounds very ‘fair’.
Let’s all remember we were all kids once too. And people tolerated us at one point.
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I have no idea why you would persist with something so stressful – eating out is not a necessity, there are other ways to connect with the world. And if it is find a family restaurant with a play area. Or go to the park. Even if you have no intention of showing any kind of consideration to other patrons, do it for your own sanity.
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I have been there with the two kids under two and a partner who worked seven days a week. At that age it is the most exhausting, isolating time and my heart goes out to you. It was without doubt the most difficult time in my life. I found I had one hour in the morning that I could safely leave the house and if I missed that window it would stuff up the routine for days. I too would go months without leaving the house and the effect it had on my mental health was not good.
Now my kids are 5 and almost 4 and I can tell you that it gets better than you can possibly imagine at this stage. They play together, no one needs naps and the freedom I have (to go to cafe’s!) I could not imagine when I was in the place you are currently experiencing. While that under two period was tough, it has totally paid off now and I look at the mother’s of my elder child’s friends who have other kids under two, who are still tethered to the house by naps and routine and I think “boy am I glad that period of my life is over”
Hang in there, it does get better. In fact it gets awesome. Don’t bother with cafe’s though, I learned that you won’t get much sympathy there, brave the play centres instead. Yes the food and coffee is awful and they are often dirty and the bathrooms smell, but trust me once this period of your life is over (and I know it seems forever) you can go back to cafes as much as you like. It only a year or two and you’ll be there and so much stronger for it.
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We fly alot with three children and have done since they were small. Whilst they have not always been well behaved nor have they ever lost it… Don’t fly on long haul flights non stop, you should always have a stop over, its easier on all of you and the passengers around you. Where possible ask for seats where there is no one in front of you aa small children love to kick the seat in front which is extremely irritating. Have you tried a red eye flight…. Although you may not get much, i have found that my children bunked down quite happily and slept through large amounts of the flight, which helped the time go faster. Take their favourite snacks and toys games and be prepared to play and keep them occupied as ,uch as possible. Don’t ever expect that a four year old should know better, they’re four years old even at ten years many children have alot of difficulty behaving in a confined space for a long period of time……good luck to you, i am sure you have heard all of thie before!!
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And the airline lounges arent really appropriate for children who are disruptive. Some people need to use them so they can arrive at their destination and function and be productive and work! Sitting in the lounge area with your screaming ranting toddler isnt really what they were meant for
Take the darling outside and let it run before boarding your flight.
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Please don’t be condescending, and the child is not ‘the darling’ or ‘it’. Perhaps your moniker is a little passive-aggressive…
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The child is clearly someones ‘little darling’…a little darling who has no right to scream and upset everyone else within earshot. Parents need to wake up.
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Where exactly are you supposed to take a child outside to run around at an airport?
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There are plenty of long open walkways at departure gates where noisy little kids can let off steam. Not cooped up in a Business lounge.
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The runway or the carpark. they get fresh air at the same time
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My children are now at an age where they stare at a four year old tantrum as though it was the worst thing in the world. Generally I like to comment loud enough that four year old’s parents hear….”That you just like you when you get angry!” I don’t want them growing up thinking they NEVER threw a tantrum, and hopefully they’ll have a little tolerance of others when they grow up. Kids are painful a great deal of the time!
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Working in hospitality my number one pet peeve was when parents would bring their kids, peruse the menu, announce that their kids wouldn’t eat any of it and tell (not ask, tell) staff to make them a vegemite sandwich or hot chips instead. Honestly, if your kids are that fussy just go to McDonalds or a no-frills pub. Or better yet bring a bloody vegemite sandwich from home.
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The parents that seem to be “ignoring” their screaming child is doing so because they are trying to teach the child that they will not get what they want just because they throw a tantrum. Trust me those parents are probably grinding their teeth while trying to act nonchalant
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Screaming child -yes, definately can be used as a parenting technique
But when it gets to the stage of going for over ten minutes like what these guys had then it is being impolite to others around you (depending where you are of course – like a cafe)
Screaming babies – not really a discipline thing i would have though
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In my humble opinion (and, I think, the opinion of many diners) that theory is all well and good an your prerogative to employ- in the privacy of your own home. Particularly in places like cafes, where your proximity to others is high and they are paying not only for food but for an experience, I think it is a bit selfish for everyone else to suffer in order for your point to be made to your child. Perhaps taking the privilege of going out away from them or disciplining them/employing this tactic when only you have to listen to it is a much more considerate alternative.
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Time and a place for ‘ignoring’ a tantrum and especially not at the expense of the other diners!
I think it is highly rude of these parents to allow children to scream, throw tantrums for whatever reasons while other people are paying good money to sit in peace.
While I feel sorry for ‘A mums’ story I do not agree with her letting her children scream with an intolerable tantrum while she has her lunch. I think that’s disgusting. How you can sit there and not feel guilty is beyond me. How could you possibly feel comfortable when you must realise everyone else in the place must be so upset with you? But then obviously you don’t care or otherwise you wouldn’t be there.
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Thanks for the article Mia. I too remove my nearly 2 year old boy from cafes etc when he is making too much noise and needs a distraction so I agree with a lot of the comments here to some degree. However, I do think that some people are becoming completely intolerant to small children and a little insensitive to how hard mums can have it sometimes. I never judge how a mum manages a screaming toddler because you just do not know the situation. Secondly, I know there are a lot of people who say I choose not have children so I shouldn’t be impacted by them. Well, sorry but yes you should- they are part of your community. Children eventually turn into adults and have jobs. They become people we depend on to keep the economy ticking as we age. So be nice, one of those children yelling in a cafe today, might end up looking after you in a nursing home…
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Best comment today. A little bit of tolerance, compassion, understanding, and love, goes a long way.
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Definitely agree! Horrified at the lack of compassion on here
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These people are most probably parents as well, like myself of grown up children. We have been there & done that. But we were polite & removed our children when they were misbehaving & just expect the same manners today. This may sound old fashioned but I am in my early 40′s.
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or they grow up on the dole.What a lame reason for bad parenting not to mention overpopulating. I’ll be looked after by a refugee , your kids will be lying on the couch.
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We have always eaten out with our children, so they know what behaviour is acceptable. I am also quite strict with them so they know exactly what is expected while we are at home and out and about. So far touch wood we have not had one bad experience my oldest is almost 5. I am regularly complimented on their manners. The way a child behaves IS a reflection of the parent and I would be horrified if my children did not behave appropriately, I haven’t read the article but perhaps they should have removed the child – but if it is a common occurrence then the parents obviously think this behaviour is acceptable.
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So is an autistic child a reflection of poor parenting?
Don’t make generalizations about parenting and poor behaviour especially for children under 6.
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That’s not what the poster meant at all. She would mean those who just let their children run amok and have no respect, not children with disabilities.
Why do we jump on posters for comments like this? It seems to be happening more and more
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that’s the thing though, everyone disapproves almost instantly to any child who makes a squeak, let alone those that cant control the noises, actions they make, regardless of knowing the circumstances. They, like Carly P, automatically blame the parents and say its a reflection on those parents as to why that child is behaving that way. When in fact, you have no idea what the parents are going through or what the disabilities the child may have.
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But if you read the article this was not ‘one little squeak’ this sent other customers away and eventually (after 10 minutes they said) did they ask the parents to quieten down the child. This is not about disabled children this is about common courtesy. The lovely finger gesture as they departed tells you they simply have none.
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Ha! One day one of your children will do something or behave in a way that horrifies you, and others will judge your parenting for it. And I must say, you will deserve it – it’s called karma baby
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As a mother of a 3 year old I always quickly leave the cafe/area should he muck up, out of respect for all the other patrons, they don’t need to listen to that…
There’s nothing worse than being out kid-free and having to listen to other kids kicking off….I could have stayed home for that!
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As a mother of a 3 year old I always quickly leave the cafe/area should he muck up, out of respect for all the other patrons. There’s nothing worse than being out kid-free and having to listen to other kids kicking off….I could have stayed home for that!
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