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It has come to our attention that all the elements of the original story printed in The Hindustan Time may not be true. Please click here for clarification.
Did you even think that this was possible? To surgically transform a baby girl into a baby boy? And did you know that there are families that elect to have the gender of their baby surgically switched after their birth.
Jezebel recently reported on this controversial practice in India – where some families take their preference for male offspring to the extreme by hiring a surgeon to turn their little girl into a little boy. Seriously.
Around the world it is common, albeit rare, for children who are born intersex to have surgery at a young age to assign them a gender. There is even debate, however, as to the necessity of genital surgery in that scenario. Performing it on a definitively female child is obviously a whole different disturbed kettle of crazy.
Aside from the alarming and depraved aspects of this trend, I struggle to fathom that whilst we’re yet to tackle hunger, displace tyrannical dictators, cure disease or even plant more trees, somehow there is time and money in this world to switch Jane to John. The mind boggles.
Can we please all agree that surgically creating male genitals on a baby girl is ludicrous? Because I’m trying to be open minded here but there is not one tiny nook or cranny in my mind where I can even begin to understand it. Giving birth and thinking ‘Oh, this isn’t what I had in mind. I really want a son. Oh I know! Let’s get a surgeon in here and make that happen’.
Last year a Melbourne family created headlines when they sought to abort their twin sons in utero on the basis of gender. They had three sons already and wanted a daughter. The application was denied. These two practices are extreme but the crux is the same – what length would you go to for a particular gender?
Grazia magazine recently published an article by fashion journalist Natasha Silva-Jelly. She wrote frankly about her strong desire for a little girl and detailed her real and painful disappointment on discovering she was carrying another boy at her 20 week scan. After giving birth she fell madly in love with her second son but concedes she would consider sex selection IVF in Thailand.
It really got me thinking. Choosing a gender prior to conception through IVF is far less confronting than surgically changing your child’s gender or aborting an established pregnancy. But at the heart of it, is it really that different? It is. But I don’t necessarily think they’re light years apart.
I know very little about parenting but one observation I have made from life in general is that expectations are at the root of most dysfunctional parent-child relationships. Not broad expectations about behaviour – being polite, being responsible, refraining from illegal activity but specific expectations about life. About what career to pursue, which partner to seek, which friends to mingle with, what clothes to wear, what kind of person you should be.
Whether they’re implicit or explicit, those types of expectations tend to be corrosive. And picking your child’s gender – with all of the associated hopes, dreams and expectations you have for that gender – seems as bad a place to start as any.
Because any preference you might have – for a boy or a girl – is hypothetical. Until you meet your own child everything you’ve imagined about them is hypothetical. You may picture yourself with a baby girl, but until you meet your daughter, the picture is abstract.
It’s not to diminish or criticise the disappointment that a parent might experience if they miss out on a particular gender. I have no doubt such disappointment – initially at least – is real and commonplace. I suppose I prefer to believe the love you feel for the actual child who ends up in your arms far outweighs the love you might have imagined for a hypothetical spawn.
Or am I living in a dream land. How far would you go for a boy or a girl? Would you consider switching your child’s sex or using sex selection in IVF?
Comments
119 Comments so far
The gender selection legislation needs to be restored to it’s pre-2005 status & couples must be free to choose the gender of their child to avoid anything like the above happening. The current ban on gender selection is backwards, unfair & is causing so much heartbreak for many people who simply wish to balance a family or have a child of a specific gender. I pray that gender selection is again allowed in Australia or I will be very saddened as I cannot afford the travel to Bangkok or the US in order to balance out my family with gender selection. Australia must change the laws immediately
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i worked with an transgendered client who wanted to get some male genatalia, but said it was v expensive and not very functional. He said “it’s easier to dig a hole than build a pole.”
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what the eff is this all about- im gobsmacked at this whole article. whoever contemplates this – they are just freaks. poor little children. its always them who suffer. so many wierdos in the world. this actually just makes me really really sad.
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Ok I was reading this article when it first came onto the site and I was baffled at how anyone could turn a girl into a boy so I’m glad they came out and said its impossible which it is! This topic always reminds me of a case study we had to read in Psychology were a couple took their twin sons to be circumcised and the doctor accidentally burns off one of the sons penis (how horrible!) so the parents decide to turn him into a girl. Anyway later on ‘she’ of course realises what happened and goes through all sorts of problems and I think I read later that she either attempted or committed suicide not sure on that part. Very sad! That case study has stuck with me for years!
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Tx for updating. While the original Hindustan Times story might have been factually correct, there were enough holes in it to leave it open to the interpretation that Indians were gender reassigning their children in line with their wish for boys. Indeed, this interpretation was seized upon by hysterical media. I mean, yes it’s a funny idea, and aren’t these peculiar Indians insane with their desperate need for boy children??!!
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not so insane when you consider that a female child may cost you the lives of your other children or your own. India is still strongly patriarchal, and still has poverty of the desperate, starving type. In Hindu marriages, the wife is expected to bring a dowry which can bankrupt a family, or indebt them to corrupt landowners. The wife will live with her inlaws, and help care for them – essentially she leaves her family. Multiple daughters can be a source of significant financial distress, whereas multiple sons can elevate a family’s status and wealth. A girl will also not be in a position to support her parents through old age. Even amongst the educated middle classes, a boy child may be preferred. It’s easy to be judgemental, but when are hungry and disempowered, infanticide/abortion may not feel so wrong.
It is wrong of course, but it’s a complex social issue without a quick solution. I just read a novel ‘someone else’s garden’ – which is (apparently) a realistic account of how wretched the lives of some indian women are.
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Yes, but they also want a boy child that can marry and have his own children one day with his wife. A female who is sexually reassigned can never have a working penis or testicles.
Are you suggesting that parents would prefer a child who needs expensive surgery, expensive hormones for life and who would need an expensive sperm doner and IVF for their wife to a standard female child?
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I have lots of wonderful friends who cannot have babies- due to medical reasons. All they want is to be parents of a healthy BABY. Yet this is denied to them- even paying for IVF didn’t work for one of my friends. so I think it is incredibly selfish and arrogant of anyone to choose their child’s sex. Be happy with what you get. I had a boy and thought I was having a girl. I was surprised when he was born- but so incredibly grateful that he was healthy that his gender didn’t matter AT ALL. Please lets be happy to have a healthy BABY.
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Very true, but it is all relevant. If you are able to have healthy babies and you have one sex already or a few, your desire to have the other is quite natural I think. What extent you are prepared to go to for this result is a matter of determination, budget and partner support, and in some countries, regulations.
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I see that this story has been revealed as a hoax. In any case, it is virtually impossible to change a normal baby’s sex by surgery. You may be able to change the external appearance of the genitalia, but you would then need to use hormone treatment +/- oophorectomy to even get anywhere near a ‘successful’ result. The resulting child would be infertile. Then of course there is the problem of sex being not completely explained by hormones alone, and other characteristics of temperament and behaviour may be unaltered.
Hermaphrodites and other intersex states are rare (and a complex paediatric endocrinology issue)- and this article did not seem to be referring to them.
This article then is based on a false premise, and is ‘medical’ reporting at it’s worst, because it is scientifically inaccurate but also culturally prejuiced.
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Thank goodness it’s a hoax. I read the original story a while ago and was totally horrified by it. I guess what makes the story so believable is that there are actually people out there that would change the sex of their baby after birth if they could.
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this is mutilation and child abuse, children arent toys and once born should be protected from the misguided and insane desires of their parents, reassignment surgery should only be used when consent is given or a child is born a hermaphrodite and even then how do you know you will choose the right gender for them?
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How can something be common, albeit rare?
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You need to read the rest of the sentence: “Around the world it is common, albeit rare, for children who are born intersex to have surgery at a young age to assign them a gender.”
So, although children being born intersex is rare, it’s common for those children to have surgery at birth.
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Can an update be added to this post to say it’s a myth? Because you can’t choose the gender of your child after it is born.
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/article2259991.ece
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it is quite possible to make a girl out of a boy, albeit not the other way round
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Not really. You can’t create a womb.
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This is close to home for me as my closest friend is dealing with this right now. Only yesterday did she find out via Amnio that her 5th child is a girl, she will now have 5.
her and her husband had their 4 daughters aged 18 – 8 years ago. Then opted for a vasectomy, 4 was enough. Each and every time my girlfriend wanted a boy desperately because her husband had fathered a son before they were together. He has never been involved with this son, but everyone knows it is his (small town they are in)
Recently their eldest daughter posted pics on facebook and my friend saw this boy in some of them as they were taken at a party their daughter attended. This raised the whole issue for her again and she decided she wanted to give her husband a son, she wanted to have a son so badly they had the vasectome reversed, ($12000), she went on a specific diet to help conceive a boy, changed her ph levels etc. Fell pregnant very easily and got such a huge shock yesteday that I seriously worried for her. The thing is, she is now talking of going to Thailand to have gender selection after this baby is born.
So for some people it is a very real issue. Of course she adores her girls and will love this one too, she just really wants a son.
I have no problem with gender selection if you fit the criteria eg gender related illness or one child already. But abortion because of the gender….I don’t think so.
Changing the sex after birth is just disgusting, absolute madness. I feel so badly for those individuals.
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I feel very badly for your friend as her and her husband are obviously going through some issues to do with her husband’s estranged son which are manifesting themselves in this obsession with having a new son.
However, it seems unlikely that having a new son is going to solve anything.
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Well he doesn’t mind having all girls, he is as happy as they come. The issue is with my dear friend, I am more worried if she doesn’t get the son!
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Georgie, hang on second, please.
Your terminology and no doubt countless mainstream media’s terminology is incorrect.
Gender “is variable across societies and historical periods” (Baxter 2000:89). and is defined as the SOCIAL RELEVANCE ascribed to the features of a person’s biological make-up (Holmes et al 2007:114ff). Society deems socially-appropriate behaviours for its ideas of what is ‘masculine’ and what is ‘feminine’. It has subjective foundations in familial, cultural and anthropological social connections.
On the other hand, ‘Sex’ is the BIOLOGICAL difference. Sex has determined cultural and anthropological roles (‘gender’) for males and females in the family, community, labour force and society.
Everywhere in your article you use the word ‘gender’. I believe you mean the decisions people make (or surgical changes they want to make) based on the biology of their children:
“when they sought to abort their twin sons in utero on the basis of gender”.
and “far less confronting than surgically changing your child’s gender”
But here you correctly state (as you do many more times in the last couple of paragraphs): “After giving birth she fell madly in love with her second son but concedes she would consider sex selection IVF in Thailand”
Or is that your whole idea: To get people to understand that SEX is biological, while GENDER is socially derived? You haven’t really clarified this…
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Jane that is a completely rediculous statement when we all know what the jist of this post is about. Come on….
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Mo5, that’s a bit rude to call Jane’s comment ridiculous don’t you think? I personally think it is very important to make the distinction between sex as biological and gender as socially driven.
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Why on earth would it be important? i understood clearly the slant of this post , we all know what it means. I mean , really??? We are not sitting at Uni in a lecture listening to a professor drone on about social conditioning and all that, it is a post about wanting a boy or a girl.
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In fact, that’s precisely where the problem comes from Mo5 – “wanting a ‘boy’ or a ‘girl’” is a BIOLOGICAL construct with a ‘gendered’ (socially-imposed) preference. So much so that people are willing to perform operations to change the SEX of the child so as to get the gender they want. But because Georgie’s article didn’t reflect the correct terminology from the get-go, I was confused as to whether people are wanting the gender (because society ‘feed-loops’ this idea of what a ‘gender’ is to begin with). If that’s the way Georgie wanted to write – providing the inherent confusion – that’s ok, because everyone else in society does the same thing. Rather, to me at least, it created the very same problem through a prism of inaccuracy that society has done and continues to do. And bias, prejudice and bigotry underpin the social roles that many ‘conform’ to – all because of this inherent confusion. I’m legitimately trying to ascertain if that’s what Georgie meant to do… or whether I’m not as bright as you Mo5 and just missed where the distinction was.
I just wasn’t sure (and still am not) about Georgie’s meaning.
Also, I’m not sitting in a uni lecture listening to a Professor determine the difference between sex/biology and gender. We live in a complicated world. Yep, some of us do have to write uni papers about this difference. So a little bit more respect for our learned Professors please – they impart well-deserved wisdom, create debate and help invoke constructive social change. ‘Drone on’ they do not – maybe I do instead
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classic sophistry, thank you for trying to make something which is clear confusing, it being obviously necessary to hypercorrect everyone else’s terminology to suit your personal lexicon
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I don’t think you need to be particularly ‘bright’ to understand the jist of a post no different than if you were meeting for coffee and the topic popped up with a bunch of girlfriends. Which is how I view all post on Mamamia. I mean, this isn’t a blog where I come for intellectual stimulation, it is like the latest issue of Grazia or Who magazine that you peruse at the supermarket while killing time. Oh, and I recall many droning professors at Uni, one in particular even managed to make a wine appreciation elective a dread!
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Alex, no problems making something confusing for you if that’s what’s resulted – and that’s my point exactly. Society (tribe/church/state) has prescribed – confused – their ‘ideas’ about biology for the sake of assigning ‘roles’ to said ideas. And society’s bias keeps getting fed back through the already biased ‘gender identity’ stuff we wade through. My my, compared to most of the Western world, how many in Australia don’t like this subject. My intention was not to ‘hypercorrect everyone else’s terminology’ but if you feel that way, well I guess that’s your gig and precisely why ‘gender’ and ‘sex’ confuse those who refuse to question it, rejecting the ideas instead.
Mo5, I guess depending on which girlfriends you sit down with (or maybe when), we have the capacity to chat over topics ranging from Kate Moss’ wedding (and her dress) to politics to health and medical breakthroughs to ‘sports heroes’ to theology to gfc to science and climate change to kid’s to gender – and even to change of a child’s sex due to parents wanting a child with an ‘appropriately’ deemed gender assigned…
Subjects kinda like here on Mamamia.
Maybe you don’t come here for “intellectual stimulation” but there are many intelligent writers and commenters here who I read. I get blown away by their level of intellect and often think to myself “Wow, actually that’s a very different way to view x, y or z – not mine but different” – obviously enough to reflect on my own thoughts and/or learn something new/be enlightened/touched and check in with myself about my own perspectives. I less entitled to ask what I asked and hoped for some genuine insight rather than condemnation for a valid and oft-confused subject. And I am no more understanding than I was earlier so clearly I must be missing something… Mo5 and Alex if you could ‘ploise explain’ rather than denigrate then I’ll be eternally humbled by your helpful insight.
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Metamucil anyone???
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‘ploise explain ‘ isn’t denigrating?
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I enjoy everything about this comment, up to and including the referencing
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Why would you want to ? Those who glance at themselves in the mirror and think, there but for the grace of God stands God will love having the opportunity to change the gender of their child. Makes them feel like God.
To alter the gender of a child is simply because you wanted a girl instead of a boy is wrong, wrong, wrong. When the child becomes an adult, should he decide to become a she…then that is his decision to make. In the mean time, just bugger off. Leave the childs genitals alone. You have plenty of other ways at your disposal to mess with their heads for the next eighteen years.
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As you read down, Bradley, you’ll see the story of Indian doctors surgically altering girls to boys is a myth borne of shock journalism.
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Huh ?
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Sorry! I was referring to AT comment below
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/article2259991.ece
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I’m a big believer in that you get what your meant to be given, if that makes sense. Aborting babies or changing the sex after they are born is to me sickening!
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I’ve got 3 girls and I wouldn’t have it any other way. I would feel the same if I had 3 boys or any other combination. BUT I know gender is sometimes a big concern for others. I would rather see people gender selecting through IVF than terminating pregnancies based on gender (clearly gender reassignment after birth is just awful) It’s a tough issue, and there are no easy answers
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I agree, gender selection should be allowed after you have one child surely. I mean, there will be a lot of people out there who would consider it big a lot wouldn’t either so i cant see it upsetting the natural order of things to much in a country lime Australia.
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“Around the world it is common, albeit rare, for children who are born intersex to have surgery at a young age…”
Have I missed something? The beginning of this sentence does not make sense. It is common, although rare?
And this is such a sensationalist article…
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i think it’s supposed to mean that being born intersex is rare? but the sentence structure is totally off…
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Not sure what I think about the content of this article but the one thing that stood out to me, was “how is Natasha Silva-Jelly’s little boy going to feel when he grows up if he reads that article?”.
I’m sure he is loved more than anything by his parents in the way that all parents feel about their children, but I know if I read an article my mum had written about how she wanted me to be a boy, I would be pretty upset!
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I used to think that with Angelina Jolie’s interviews about how she hated being pregnant, how her Shiloh was totally different from her other, adopted children because of her skin colour etc etc etc.
What was going to happen when she’s old enough to read, use the internet and find all these articles about her bitching? Argh.
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I am the mother of 4 beautiful boys who I would not trade for the world however when I see my girlfriends with their daughters I sometimes think that it would have been nice to have a daughter as I am close to my own mother however as far as determining the sex of my child I would do nothing and except what I was given on this day and age where youcan pre order modt
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I doubt anyone who is desperate for A BABY would even consider sex selection.
I’m all for sex selection for absolute medical reasons, but otherwise I would have to question their desire for a child in the first place. Sounds like they’re not after a baby, more an accessory..
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You compare the Melbourne IVF case with the post-birth gender reassignment/mutilation as if they are the same thing. No one was harmed in the abortion case in Melbourne, yet the genital operation will probably lead to a life time of hurt. One is harmless, one is endless harm.
I’m a massive supporter of re-legalising gender selection in Australia. There is no cultural gender bias in Australia – almost everyone wants on of each. In fact, Sydney IVF, when gender selection was legal, more girls were selected than boys by a ratio girls/boys of 60/40.
If that couple had been granted approval to pick a girl, there would be a gorgeous baby girl living right now. Where’s the harm?
Just because gender selection might make you uncomfortable, it doesn’t mean it should be illegal. You don’t know the motivations behind a parent requesting gender selection, except they want a child. Again, where’s the harm.
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Absolutely !!
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“No one was harmed” except the two precious little boys who didnt even have a chance to live simply because “their parents did not want boys”. It breaks my heart to hear of these babies dismissed so easily. Its not about the parents, its about the babies.
Since when was life so predicatble and about getting everything we wanted. We are not supposed to be in control of everything, especially gender selection. Perhaps we should count our blessings and be thankful that we do have kids while others struggle to even concieve.
What happens when things go wrong? Ive seen cases of doctors conducting intrusive procedures on a foetus to ensure that the baby is “normal”, so the parents will keep the baby, only to realise that the procedure itself actually harmed the baby who was not born “normal”.
Ye of little faith, leave God’s work alone
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For starters, your arguments are tired re-treads of the arguments against IVF. Accept God doesn’t want you to have babies. Adopt ‘or something’. IVR babies are designer babies. IVF babies are unnatural.
The Catholic Church still holds this stance. They were bullshit then and they are bullshit now. IVF parents are good parents. IVF children are normal, loved children.
The point is, if the couple had been able to pick a girl, there would be a little girl with two loving parents. What’s better in your God’s eyes? No child or one child?
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Of course IVF parents are good parents and IVF babies are normal babies – who suggested otherwise? I didnt actually bring up the issue of IVF, you did.
Im simply stating that it is not our “choice” to select the gender of our babies. Just because it can be done, doesnt make it right. Like i said – what happens when things go wrong?
I have a problem with the comment that “no one was harmed” in the case of the two aborted little boys. You know they were boys right? Doesnt that make them human? Do you see no harm in killing them? Really?
Bullshit is obviously ur opinion but dont disrespect the catholic church because you disagree.
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LOL. Bad editing I’m afraid. I meant the arguments were bullshit, and meant to point out that the Catholic Church still held those anti-IVF views.
I brought up IVF because the arguments you used against sex selection were the same as those arguments used against IVF.
The abortion of the two boys isn’t something I agree with as a form of sex selection, however it was legal and those two male human fetuses were not yet people, legally, ethically or scientifically. No one was killed.
But rather than have a fight about abortion, the point is this: whatever harm done in the Melbourne abortion case is completed. It won’t grow or be ongoing, unlike an example of a gender change post-birth on a child (which is dispicable). AND it could have been avoided completely had the couple been able to select the sex of their child.
You say just because it is possible, doesn’t mean we should do it. I say just because you are uncomfortable with something, doesn’t mean it should be illegal.
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You see i believe that their was harm done in the Melb case and two baby boys were killed – any death has an effect on others, albeit the parents, practitioners, siblings etc etc. Anyway i know this article was not about the Melb case but i was merely responding to ur remark about no harm done.
With regard to gender selection we def agree that post birth selection is wrong on every level and with regard to pre birth selection, we can agree to disagree
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Agreed!
You must come around for dinner, since we’re so good at following the rules!
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Everyone – the sex selection story has been widely discredited in India and elsewhere. Please do not continue perpetrating this myth.
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/article2259991.ece
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Gold.
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Thanks for that. I didn’t think it could be true.
As the article (above) says:
“It is medically impossible to change a female child into a male”
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Thanks for bringing that to our attention AT
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I don’t know where to start on this one.
A person is a person, not because of their gender, but in spite of it. Wanting a child of a particular gender means you are assigning that child the typical role of that gender before they are even born. What if they are a tomboy, or an effeminate boy? What if they become trans-gender, gay, lesbian, bisexual etc? Will you need to have another child to replace them because they didn’t fulfill your expectations? It’s such a dangerous path to start down.
I know we all have hopes and dreams for our children – even before they are born – but I’d like to think that what most of us are hoping for (or should be trying to hope for) is a child who is born healthy and grows up to be happy within their self.
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You are assuming that anyone who wants to select gender would have a problem with a homosexual child. This would be a false assumption.
You have no idea why parents might prefer a specific gender.
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No you’re right, I don’t know why each person who wants a particular gender wants that gender.
However, I hardly think the parents could be desperate for the physical or chromosomal characteristics which make their child a son or a daughter. Therefore, my guess is that it’s all about the ‘gender role’ they want the child to take on.
But you’re right, it is a guess.
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Gender roles are far more than sexual preference.
I also dismiss the idea that a gay boy isn’t a ‘real’ boy.
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I completely agree with both your statements. I never said that gender roles were purely sexual preference or that a gay boy is not a real boy.
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WTF?!! Who are the surgeons that are doing this surgery? This is moronic to say the least. So what if you cut your son’s penis off to make him a girl. This doesn’t mean he will feel like a girl later on. I just can’t fathom that this is going on. These surgeons need to be de-registered.
I had a son, then a daughter, so naturally, my house was full of cars trucks etc. We had one doll in the house. When my daughter was six months old, she tipped over the toy box and rummaged around until she picked up the doll, which she cradled in her arms. This was obviously an instinctual drive from her, which would have been there even if I had chosen to give her a penis after she was born. How do you control that?
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The ‘instinctual’ gender drives such as preferring dolls, pink etc are generally thought to be encouraged/influenced by the huge effect that the outside society has on the child, even from a very young age. So perhaps your daughter is just more of a doll/people/nurturing person than a truck one, rather than thinking she chose the doll because she is a girl (kind of like an ‘early-childhood’ version of ‘men never listen/women are emotional’ stereotyping)?
Ah, my brain isn’t working as well as it normally does, sorry if it doesn’t make sense
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Sorry about the mess, I just vomited on the keyboard. This is just so horribly wrong in so many ways. I think it was 4 Corners last year did a story on gender reassignment and the psychological damage that is caused when it is done too early. Gender is so much more than having a penis or vagina, the really important factors, apart from breeding, is the balance of hormones and other chemicals in the brain.
The story show multiple instances where the families and doctors got it totally wrong in infant gender reassignment surgery leading to long term mental health issues and even suicide. Nature stuff up often when building something as complex as a living creature but to have this compounded by intervention before the body chemically knows what gender it is criminal.
Far better to provide love and support to a trans/indeterminate gender child until they can make the decision themselves. Too many people use cultural and religious excuses to take inappropriate intervention rahter than accepting it is actually part of a natural variable, traumatic as that may be. It ties in with the whole nurture v nature debate with homosexuality, which is really a non debate as the science is quite clear on it all coming down to brain chemistry and hormone levels and not a choice.
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Gender is so much more than genitals. Gender reassignment for babies is going to create so many future problems for these children, physically and psychologically. It’s just a bad idea.
I feel so lucky to have a girl and a boy, but I’d like to think I’d feel just as lucky with two girls, or two boys. I can understand the desire for choosing the sex of a child, but I think allowing gender selection through IVF is problematic. If we allow parents to choose the sex of their child, where will it stop? Just because we have the ability to do something, doesn’t mean we should.
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No one is suggesting we should. The argument is that is should be a choice.
Where will it stop? It stops with the selection of gender. There is no manipulation of genes. Either an egg with the preferred chromosomes is selected, or IVF procedures allow you to pick the sperm with preferred gender prior to implantation into an egg.
They don’t get the genes from anywhere else, everything comes from the parents. The child is 100% natural.
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Huh. Well when you put it like that, I definitely see it differently. Thanks.
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As the mother of 4 girls I am asked if going to go back for a little fella.
My mother in law had 4 boys and she was asked the same thing. Times haven’t changed.
I would never swap my girls they are amazing and if we have another baby I would be happy with a healthy baby.
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So refreshing to hear. I am pregnant with no. 2 and I would be equally happy with either gender as well. I have no preference. I am a little nervous about how I would deal with a son as I only have experience with a daughter so far and had no brothers growing up, but excited for the challenge if it is a boy; equally excited for a gorgeous pair of sisters : )
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Totally agree. I have a boy and a girl, but have learned that children are individuals, not genders. Our gorgeous girl is anything but girly, our boy would look just beautiful as a girl with his gorgeous blonde hair and blue eyes. Gender doesn’t define a person’s personality, and shouldn’t limit them.
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‘Going to go back’ makes me think of that childhood explanation of where babies come from, like you go back to the hospital and pick up a boy, ha ha
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I think that’s terrible changing the sex of a child just because it wasn’t what you were hoping for. As long as it’s healthy, who cares? Be thankful you have a happy, healthy baby, there are a lot of people who would give everything they have just to have A baby.
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Assigning a gender to an intersex child makes sense. Part of me thinks ‘do it early’ and then another part of me agrees with waiting to see which gender is more prominent in the child as they grow and assigning that one. Each case would be different tho. Very different.
As someone who already has 2 girls and is 16 weeks pregnant with #3, I am hoping for a boy. I didn’t find out the sex of my girls until they were placed on my chest simply cos I like the ‘surprise’. I thought about finding out this time around however decided not to as I know myself well enough to realise that if I were told I was carrying another girl I would spend the rest of tge pregnancy disappointed. If I wait till baby is placed on my chest or in my arms after delivery I won’t care what sex it is! I already love the little one, despite the migraines the pregnancy is causing me! I am hoping for a boy however ultimately I’m hoping for what every right-minded person hopes for – a healthy baby with all the right bits in all the right places. I may be open to IVF in the future to ensure a particular sex, and at the same time I don’t know if that is the right thing to do. again, each case is different.
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I am fascinated with the whole gender disappointment and gender balancing debate – the baby forums on these subjects seem to go into overdrive. There are spots you can upload your ultrasound photos and have people guess.
I think it is more important to have the appropriate size family that is right for you. I have observed many people who just have another baby for the opposite sex to have this ‘gender balance’. Some of the families I have seen have broken apart and weakened as one party did not initially want another due to time, financial and other reasons (who knows if this feeling changes – and I’m sure the baby is wanted and loved just as much)
I have to admit I am guilty of watching my ultrasound video over and over. I wanted a girl as my mother had passed away and I longed for that same connection. So, I can understand how some people feel. However, I also felt that two would be enough for me physically and emotionally to look after. If they were the same gender, then that is the way it is.
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I may just have a 4th, 5th or 6th child in the hopes of having a girl if I had all boys, but surgery to change the gender of a child – that is just wrong, wrong, wrong…! That’s child abuse.
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A lot of the pressure is external too. I’m pregnant with my third baby and have two beautiful boys. Most people – even my obstetrician who i have had to be so firm with about not wanting to know the gender – say ‘oh you must be hoping for a girl’ or assume we are having a third baby to ‘try’ for a girl. It’s starting to play on my mind. So if I have a boy, will people think, ‘oh, poor thing with three boys’? Because that’s how the endless comments are starting to make me feel.
Am just grateful to be pg again and hope for a happy, healthy little baby.
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Good on you Eliza. I’ve only got 2 kids, but I had the same comments when I had my 2nd boy. “Oh you must be disappointed you don’t have a girl”, particularly when they found out we weren’t having any more kids. Disappointed? How insulting to him and how ridiculous! Why on earth would I care what gender my child is? healthy, happy is all anyone needs.
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It really shits me when I hear that – ‘you must be disappointed you didn’t get the girl etc etc’. Who the fuck says these things?!!
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So so true! I have 3 gorgeous girls and got sick to death during my last pregnancy of well intentioned people wishing us ‘luck’ for a boy. I genuinely didn’t care and it made me angry that both friends and strangers felt the need to say such a thing; as though ‘another’ girl would be second best. Eventually I began ranting to people (especially the strangers in the supermarket) that I absolutely DIDN’T want a boy and that we hadn’t found out the sex as I knew I would be disappointed if it wasn’t a girl. “our house is full of pink. Pink pink pink. I love having girls, why would a want a boy??……. ” it always shut them up.
And yes there will be number 4 eventually. And not because we are hoping for a boy. We have always just wanted 4 Kids regardless of gender. And either way, bubs will be welcomed into our family with love.
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I cannot be the ob said that! Seriously, I wonder why they think they should share their opinion on this to you. It’s funny when you ask them a medical question, it is all “many women feel this…” or “if you told me you want to have c-section, I would say…” They speak in riddles to protect themselves against legal malpractice suits when it suits them! Sorry, bit of a rant, but I just think it is rude and they should stick to their job. What are you supposed to say to a comment like that?
The other thing is I think truly people do have the whole “you poor thing” going in their head – but I think it’s because people don’t want to see you with one of each – like it’s unfair or something. It’s really strange. Some people just like to put others down and see it as an opportunity. Grrrr.
Best of luck with your bubba. Lucky to have a mum who will love them!
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It’s interesting isn’t it? I have a boy and a girl and so many people were suprised when I got pregnant with my third. I’d get comments to the effect of “Oh, you’re having another one? But you already had one of each…?” It’s not about that. I wanted 3 beautiful, healthy children, and that is what I am having. Gender is inconsequential!
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Oh Eliza I am in the EXACT same position, I have two boys and find out sex of number 3 next week. I could actually care less what it is and am sick to death of the “oh but what if it’s a boy?” comments that began the day I announced I was pregnant. I am from a very large family (1 of 10) and always intended on having lots myself, so I will more than likely have at least one or two more. But when you have the same gender you have to then justify your decision to have another child was simply to have another child and not to get a girl like the majority presume. Amongst my family and friends I know of far too many miscarriages, birth defects, major life long health issues and sadly stillborns to even contemplate being upset if I was given a 100% healthy boy that I conceived naturally and very easily. We have decided to not tell anyone the date of my 20 week scan as I am being constantly hounded by several friends about knowing what the sex is and what I’ll do if I get a “bad result”, referring to the gender, not the health of the child. Several of my (childless) friends admit quite openly to me in front of my two boys that they will be devastated to only have boys and their first child MUST be a girl to take the pressure off the second time. I have often asked why the necessity to have girls and they respond with “oh so when they are adults we will be so close, go on trips together, days at spas, being a mother if the bride.. Blah blah blah…”. I could probably count on one hand my female friends that have that sort of relationship with their mother. I have a damn lot more who avoid their mother at all cost, two friends even admitting they would not have their mothers at their wedding. Having a girl or boy gaurantees NOTHING in later life. Too many expectations will only lead to many disappointments in life.
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Is this surgery being performed on intersex children only or are parents bringing in their children of clear single sex in for the surgery?
Because the surgery for intersex children used to be common in the developed world and only in recent years have doctors recommended for children to grow up intact and identify their own gender (specific or otherwise).
And back to the question. I had a D&C after a miscarriage, and I’m worried any scar tissue may make it difficult for me to conceive ever again.
Never mind the sex of a child, I’ll just be happy to have one!
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my sis in law has two boys, and she gets it all the time “when are u gunna try for a third, u must want a girl”. i have a baby boy and im madly in love with him, we would love more children, i always wanted four! (although given how hard it was to conceive our first we know this may just be a dream!), however no matter the amount of children we have, as long as they are healthy i really dont care what gender they are.
thinking of one of my best friends and her husband who have been struggling with infertility for years and still seem to be no closer to conceiving, how hard it is for her sometimes to hear of other people’s joy while she still has no baby in her belly or her arms, i just feel like it is the luckiest, most amazing thing in the world just to be given a healthy baby, regardless of wether its a boy or girl
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One only needs to read the tragic story of David Reimer to know the horrific mental anguish doing something like this will wreak on a person.
http://jl10ll.wordpress.com/2010/11/05/born-a-boy-raised-a-girl-the-johnjoandavid-reimer-case-in-the-context-of-todays-sex-reassignment-surgeries/
David Reimer (August 22, 1965 – May 4, 2004) was a Canadian man who was born as a healthy male, but was sexually reassigned and raised as female after his penis was accidentally destroyed during circumcision.Psychologist John Money oversaw the case and reported the reassignment as successful, and as evidence that gender identity is primarily learned. Academic sexologist Milton Diamond later reported that Reimer failed to identify as female since the age of 9 to 11, and that he began living as male at age 15. Reimer later went public with his story to discourage similar medical practices. Eventually he committed suicide, due to suffering years of severe depression, financial instability and a dissolving marriage.
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I have no preference for boy or girl, as long as they are healthy and happy.
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There is a very interesting book by Australian author Jane McCredie called Making girls and boys: inside the science of sex. Basically there is a lot of recent research suggesting that gender identity starts to occur in the first weeks after conception at a cellular level. To suggest that changing gender after birth is possible is extremely disturbing.
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I know this sounds crazy but I felt like a hoped so hard for a girl that it actually happened. I felt like I put effort into it. I know all the real science guys, but it still makes me wonder!
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I have 3 sons and would have loved to have had a daughter as well. When I was pregnant with my 3rd and found out he was another boy I cried and cried. I didn’t want a daughter to put her in frilly dresses I wanted a daughter so I could experience that mother daughter relationship. I am very close to my Mother and I was devestated that I would not have such a relationship in my life. I got over my devestation pretty quickly and when he arrived I felt nothing but love (no disappointment at all).
These stories of baby’s being mutilated make me sick. Surely these doctors realise the damage they are doing??? As fo gender selection I do think it has it’s place and if it were available and we were guaranteed it would work I may just reopen the baby shop.
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I haven’t read any other comments yet, but as a mum of 2 beautiful boys, I will admit that I would love to have a little girl. I have friends of friends that have tried to get pregnant just to have a little girl/boy which my husband and I dont agree with. From my point of view, if you decide to get pregnant, you do it to have a baby, not a girl or boy but a baby.
To go into a pregnancy with some expectation of gender is unfair to the child and yourself, if you let it affect your relationship with your baby. For example, will you bond as strongly with a girl if you wanted a boy?
My belief is you get what you are given and you should feel blessed enough to be ecstatically happy to have a baby at all.
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I have two darling little boys as well and would not trade them for the world! That doesn’t mean I don’t think of having a little girl and what it might be like to experience that mother/daughter relationship. However, I am absolutely mortified at the practice of a baby having a sex change because their parents wanted something else. I would never even consider something this horrid and selfish!
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I have so many friends who want a girl – it seems so much more common for women to want the girl, and men to want the boy…but more so for the women/girl thing. I have a son and am pregnant with my second and think it is definitely win-win on what I have next.
I find my friends’ reasoning for wanting a girl really crazy – dressing them in pretty clothes (that might be fine until they turn 2 and want to wear shorts and tshirts rather than dresses), having a ‘friend’ (seriously?? How’s about you get one your own age! My mum and I are really close, but my mum and my sister are not…they are just too different…you might love your daughter, but no guarantee you will like her!)…to me, these reasons are not valid at all. You should be grateful to have a happy, healthy child more than anything else.
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Seriously? I thought I had heard it all, but that is so far out there it’s not funny. I can’t believe people would choose to change their child’s gender. That’s outrageous. And I would imagine very dangerous to the child both physically and mentally.
When we were pregnant with our first, I though a girl would be nice. When we found out he was a boy, I was disappointed for, oh, about half a second. He’s the most delightful little man, and I can’t imagine having him any differently. We are pregnant with our second and I don’t care what this one is, apart from healthy. I think two little boys would be awesome, but a little girl would be equally nice.
Babies and their gender isn’t something we should have control over. They are the last great surprise, the luck of the draw, and we should accept that. Not try to dominate it through gender selection or surgery!
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I’ve always wanted a baby girl but I guess this stems from growing up in a girl-only environment and not knowing much about how to raise boys, or how to deal with their behaviour.
I know in my mind that if I were to have a boy, or two, I would be happy enough knowing that I was blessed to be able to conceive a child when so many couples I know struggle.
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I was the same before I had kids. I am from an all girl family so the idea of a baby boy was terrifying and I was much more comfortable with the idea of a girl. The thing is, the idea of a child and the reality of a child is very different.
Once my son was born, I was still indifferent for a few minutes. All the fears ran through my mind. But once I held him in my arms all those fears seemed unimportant. And every day I get cuddles and kisses from my little man I wonder what the hell was I worried about? The sex of your child is such a small part of who they are. It might mean the “stuff” is different in terms of clothes, toys and how you decorate their room, but the “stuff” around them is not what you love about them.
The idea that someone would want to change something about a baby surgically to suit some cultural expectation is very sad.
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Me too. Two sisters and I have only ever looked after/babysat/nannied baby girls. The idea of changing a boy’s nappy freaks me out!! After they get out of nappies it’s all good but I have a serious mental block then
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The Australian family did, in fact, abort their twin sons (based only on the fact that they were boys, not that there was anything “wrong” with them), but then were denied legal permission to have PGD IVF in search of that elusive girl.
I would consider PGD IVF if I knew that both my husband and I had recessive genes that could cause a life threatening illness or condition in a child of a particular sex, but not just because “I want a girl because I want to buy pink frocks”. I believe this is the only manner in which it is offered?
I was quite convinced I was having a baby girl – right up until I saw his willy in my 12 week scan. There really wasn’t any doubt! It would be wrong to say I was disappointed but there was a little part of me that “mourns” (for lack of a better word) the lost possibility of seeing my daughter in her wedding dress, and other such particularly “girly” moments. A boy in his suit isn’t quite the same thing, no matter how dashingly handsome he will look (and he will!).
In fact, for the next 6 weeks, whilst waiting for our 18 week scan, I was quite worried that it was a mistake, as by then I’d fallen hopelessly, madly in love with my little boy and I would have then been disappointed, I think! Damned pregnancy hormones!
I am truly disturbed by the Indian sex change operations. I can’t see how those children will have fulfilling adult lives, always feeling “not quite right”.
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But what if you had a daughter and she didn’t end up marrying? I have a lot of friends who had huge dramas with their mothers when they came out because they’ll never get to see their daughter in the Big White Dress….despite their daughters abandoning dresses from childhood, or over being forced them into particularly ‘girly’ things.
I don’t know, I know the argument is wider than that, but the most common reasoning I hear behind wanting a girl, for instance, is the whole ‘so we can do girly things together’ so that’s what I always say….
But, on another note, if your boy ended up marrying someone from Scotland, maybe he’d wear a kilt, which is somewhat like a dress? Almost? And much more dashing than a suit, I think! lol
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Marmalady is right – what would be the point of doing this? i ‘m wondering if this is some kind of hoax?
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Ugh, this makes me feel sick. Wouldn’t one of the ‘reasons’ to want a son over a daughter be to carry on the family name? How would that be possible, I’m assuming with the gender reassignment you get whatever gender visually, but don’t get the ability to reproduce as well?
I also wonder about the whole nature vs nurture – just because someone has surgery to ‘make them a boy’ (or girl) I wonder whether if they were then raised as a boy would make them masculine, or if they would be innately feminine anyway? (Sorry, I don’t know if I’ve worded that to make sense – sleep deprevation is doing my head in!)
In any case, IMO a healthy child should be the goal of every pregnancy, not some desperate attempt to create a certain gender no matter what. I do get the preference – I had a very, very strong preference for my first child to be a girl, but not to the extreme that I would have cut off a son’s penis to get one.
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I will preface this comment by saying that I do not think that gender reassignment on babies, or any means of sex selection for that matter, is even remotely OK.
But I think to just say eww and demand this stop right now ignores the enormous complexity of the situation. In many countries, including India, there is a cultural imperative to have male children. Boys will provide for you in you old age, whilst girls will only cost you money in the form of a dowry. Living in the Western world these attitudes sound harsh and backwards but in countries where survival is an everyday struggle it is reality. Until this much deeper issue is addressed, stories like this will still emerge, although they may include children dying after patents were forced into an underground market.
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What happens to these poor kids when they grow up and realise that they are different and not everything ‘works’ the same way as everyone else?
I agree with others that say children are a gift. I have 2 boys and love them to bits. I believe that if you truly want children, gender should not be an issue.
We live in a society that feeds to our wants and desires, but some things should just be left to the natural world.
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Another story of doctors gone mad, why do some doctors think they can perform this sort of surgery on healthy children?? I know the parents are crazy too, but if the DRs didn’t do it then it wouldn’t happen! All down to money again I guess.
Poor children, mutilated and made infertile this is child abuse and the kids shoul dbe taken away from them.
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If you see AT’s comment above, you’ll see this is not “another story of doctors gone mad”, but of reporters mis-reporting the facts for the sake of sensationalism and a few more sold papers.
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/article2259991.ece
No Indian girl has been ‘made’ into a boy.
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We have two beautiful, wonderful girls and am currently pregnant. I can’t count the number of people who have said to me, gee you must be wishing for a boy. Also the pressure from family is ridiculous, with many saying “we want a boy”. It is an understatement to say that I get mightily pissed off when I hear these comments and so am quite blunt in my responses.
Really i couldn’t care less if this baby is a boy or a girl. All I want is a live, healthy baby!!
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You sound like a gorgeous mother. Speaking from experience, if your daughters are at an age where they are aware of what’s being said around them, I can’t stress how important it is to reassure them that you and their father could not care whether the baby is a boy or girl. People should really think before speaking. A child should never feel that he/she is a ‘disappointment’.
Congratulations on your pregnancy and good luck with three. xxx
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Hi Jelly Belly, congratulations on your pregnancy! I have two little boys and people often make comments to me about how I must ‘desperately’ want a girl and when I mention that I am going to try for number three in the next couple of years they make the comment ‘So you can have a girl, right?’. This is as far from the truth as possible. I want three kids and I always have. What sex any of them are has never bothered me in the slightest. My mum goes on and on about how ‘terrible’ it’s going to be if I have another boy and it drives me bloody nuts!
So I can empathise and while it’s difficult not to listen to others, try to stay strong and enjoy your pregnancy. You’ll need your energy for you beautiful baby girl
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Huh? Females have XX chromosomes and males XY. I don’t think mutilating genitals is going to do much more than create trauma, identity confusion and heartache. Is it for real!?
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Yep, also… what about the other lady parts?!
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You’re wrong. The Melbourne family DID abort healthy twin boys. They wanted permission to have IVF AGAIN with gender selection, that is what they were denied. And rightly so.
Gender obsession is something I will never understand, never empathise with. It’s selfish, it’s greedy, and it misses the whole point of having a child. They’re not little vessels for you to shape into the ‘thing’ you want. You’re spot on there Georgie – parental problems occur when you try and live through your child, and make them conform to what you never could become (seems to be the root of most of it).
I have a friend who lost her baby boy to Congenital Heart Disease at 25 hours of age. She was able to hold him, smell him, have a brief flash of hope he might live, and then he was gone forever. So I find the idea the whole overindulgent concept of ‘GD’ Gender Disappointment to just be a little bit frivolous and self-involved in the context of that.
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How precious is life, why do we have to interfere so much….enjoy, respect, love, adore this wonderful gift we are given. So many people aren’t able to have children, good decent people. How disrespctful are we to these people when we fret over something as so insignificant as the sex of a baby. I thank god everyday for my 2 beautiful, healthy children. Don’t mess with mother nature, she will bite!
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