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birth plans birthzillas 380x399 Birthzillas: when its all about the birth, not the baby

 

 

 

 

by MIA FREEDMAN

“Did you have a plan for your placenta?” the woman asked me earnestly. She was pregnant. I was confused.

We’d only just met at a BBQ and as she repeated her question, I cocked my head quizically like a Labradoodle trying to understand a complex sentence. I’d never heard the words ‘plan’ and ‘placenta’ together and I was having trouble reconciling them.

“Huh? You mean did I, like, cook it or bury it in the garden?” She shook her head. “No, I mean when you gave birth did you have a plan for how your placenta would be delivered?”

Blink. “Um, out of my vagina? Does that count as a plan?”

More head shaking. The woman was growing impatient because she had a plan and she wanted to tell me about it. Her three page birth plan had “Delivering The Placenta” as its own subhead with half a dozen bullet points underneath.

I know this because she showed it to me on her phone while I tried not to stab myself with a sausage.

My personal view of birth plans is that they’re most useful when you set them on fire and use them to toast marshmallows. But there are some women who live for them: I call them Birthzillas because just like a Bridezilla focusses on the wedding not the marriage, The Birthzilla appears more interested in having a birth experience than a baby.

This term won’t win me any friends among those who believe passionately in a particular type of birth. Homebirth, freebirth, waterbirth, hypnotic birth, active birth, calm birth, silent birth……there’s a first-world menu of options for anyone who wishes to select from it, both inside and outside the hospital system.

Birthzillas usually speak about ‘empowerment’ and ‘control’ and use a lot of personal pronouns. Their own experience is invariably at the centre of their narrative even though they will always claim (and probably believe) that they’re acting selflessly for the good of their baby. This baffles me. It’s a bit like going to Paris and obsessing about the in-flight entertainment instead of, you know, PARIS.

Some women define themselves by the type of birth they had, even though their children are now in primary school. I antagonised this subculture a few years ago when I spoke out about freebirth (the practice of giving birth at home without any medical support not even a midwife) and called it reckless.

Many “birth advocates” came after me with pitchforks and autosignatures like:

“Anne-Marie, mother of Wyllow (happily freebirthed in 2002) and Jaydyn (proudly waterbirthed at home in 2004).”

It’s birth as identity and it’s odd.

The Birthzilla is such a first world creation. For millions of women, their birth plan is simply: “please let my baby and I survive”. However, among privileged women with access to safe and affordable care, I’ve noticed a growing fixation on the birth process.

For many, it’s about control. One of the most confronting things about pregnancy and birth is the unpredictability of it and women often believe they can regain control by planning. Babies, however, like to raise their middle finger at your plans. They come early, they come late, they get stuck, they get suddenly distressed or tired or tangled. I know you’ve made three playlists for the different stages of your labour but your baby doesn’t care.

tina fey bossypants1 380x553 Birthzillas: when its all about the birth, not the babyIn her memoir, Bossypants, the brilliant Tina Fey describes the birth of her first child like this: “Vaginal delivery, epidural, didn’t poop on the table”. Those three pertinent facts sum it up, pre-emptively answering the most common questions other women ask.

Men? They couldn’t care less. Never in your life will you hear a man urge a woman, “Please! Tell me more about the way you gave birth!”. Not even if she’s his wife.

While most women need little encouragement to launch into a detailed account of her birth from conception to the first time she has sex afterwards, men generally try to leave the room when the subject comes up. It’s just not that interesting to them. I don’t mean the part where they saw their baby for the first time. That’s mind-blowing. But the bits before that? Utterly insignificant compared to the lifetime of parenting that comes afterwards.

I recently heard a woman on the radio waxing lyrical about how her two homebirths “were the most incredible experiences of my life and I don’t know anyone who had a hospital birth and could say the same thing”. Me. I could. Three hospital births. Loved them all. And this is where I start to get tetchy.

Let me state for the record: I’m a fan of doctors. Love them. Especially obstetricians. If I could give birth in a stadium full of people in white coats with letters after their names I would do a happy jig. What? You’re a doctor of French literature? Mathematics? Oh well, come on down! The more qualifications nearby, the better.

But in the maddening world of competitive mothering, some women see their birth experience as a platform for smugness and superiority. A badge of maternal honour. The game of My Birth Was Better Than Yours is an ugly, destructive one. And hugely risky if it puts anything above the physical welfare of a baby.

So yes, I could bang on and on about my birth experiences. But I’d prefer to tell you about my kids.

UPDATE 6pm Sunday 17 June: Having read most of the comments and watch the debate unfold over the day, I just wanted to clarify four things.

1. Being a feminist does not – to me – mean agreeing with every decision made and every opinion held by everyone who happens to have a vagina. I will always be authentic and honest about my own opinions and this column is an example of that. Some seem to believe it’s my ‘duty’ to support all women regardless of their choices or behaviour. I’m afraid that’s not going to happen. I am one person with one opinion. I don’t claim to speak on behalf of anyone else. There are hundreds of contributors to Mamamia and thousands of comments that reflect a hugely diverse range of opinions which is as it should be.

2. I am not suggesting making a birth plan is reckless or even stupid. I’m not suggesting it’s a good idea to walk into your birth knowing nothing. Many commenters below have spoken about ‘birth preferences’ which I think is sensible. But becoming too fixated on the way you give birth is, in my opinion, a misplaced priority and ultimately often futile. And I’ve seen sooooo many women shocked, bewildered, disappointed and even ashamed that their birth did not go according to their plan. Being aware that it could all go to hell is an important part of preparing for the very unpredictable experience of giving birth.

3. There is a broad spectrum of Birthzilla behaviour. Some of it – making detailed plans for your placenta or compiling endless playlists for your ipod – is harmless enough. Trivial even. You want a water birth in a birth centre? Why not. More insidious are the Birthzillas who derive status and superiority from the way they give birth. They can be almost passive aggressive about it. And who says giving birth at home or without drugs is somehow ‘better’ or ‘more meaningful’ than giving birth via c-section or with an epidural or with forceps?

4. At the extreme end of the Birthzilla spectrum are those women who put their birth experience above the health and wellbeing of their baby. And yes it happens. In fact the South Australian coronor recently found that three babies who died during homebirths would have certainly survived had they been born in hospitals. You can read more about that here. In each case, their mothers knew the pregnancies were high risk and chose to give birth at home without medical support anyway. Their babies died. And for what? That is where Birthzilla behaviour can actually be a matter of life and death.

 

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1,449 Comments so far

  1. Jade

    Mia well said. I think there is much to be said for open dialogue with your carer in terms of birth, but to have a ‘plan’ just leaves you wide open to disappointment because you need to believe your carer be it OB or midwife or whomever, is going to take the path as labor progresses (or doesn’t progress) that is safest for you and your bub.
    My experience of people in your face about birth are also in your face about all sorts of other elements of raising children and I concur that so often it’s about them not their child.
    A mother from
    Mums group who I still catch up with after all these years falls into this category – she’s a helicopter parent who has imagined all sorts of ailments / personality issues etc. I know them intimately and what I see is a kid who just wants to be a kid with so space to roam free.

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  2. wtf

    knowledge is power Rose.
    And that is why you, with your google knowledge and tunnel visioned views, won’t ever convince the vast majority of us with common sense to side with your way of thinking.
    How on earth could you even begin to think that your knowledge base could compare with professionals in the field? Especially those who have been in the obstetrics field for decades, with all their experience and endless research and learning.
    It is know where near as simple as you may believe. But hey, you keep on convincing yourself that you know better than everyone else. THat’s ok if that’s what you need to feel worthy. Just don’t spit venom at the rest of us.

    You would be far more believable if you respected the knowledge base of the relevent professionals, respected…not saying you have to agree, then to go around ranting such shite that you have.

    “I’d rather not have some huge scar because doc just likes to use his scalpel. ”
    “don’t be mad at me just because your doctor cut your vag and now it’s all fuckered up for life”
    “It’s a fact that many OBs don’t practice evidence based care”

    Total rot. Really.

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    • Anonymous

      ??
      not sure why this reply is here.
      IT was meant as a reply to Rose posted June 17 11.20.
      Weird.

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    • JO

      *snort* Really? You think professionals continually update their education? My own OB finished schooling in the70′s and hasn’t been back…we had a long conversation about DCC and lotus births, how to naturally turn a breech baby and birth one. We talked because I was planning on an unassisted homebirth and he was supporting my choice but needed to understand my reasonings and know how prepared I was. He has learnt ALOT from me…his c-section rate has gone down and his breech births have gone up.

      Lets get one thing straight…drs, OBs, nurses and midwives are not godly. Most of the time their training isn’t updated because they are truly busy with patients (not their fault)..but to put your trust in them fully is very stupid!

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      • Anon

        As someone who has spent the past decade working in postgraduate medical education and training, I can advise you that CPD is a professional requirement to renew their registration. They must make a declaration to that effect which, if untrue, would have them struck off. They must keep evidence of these activities for auditing purposes. For non-specialists without limited registration, the bare minimum is 50 hours per year – more than one working week. A doctor only doing 50 hours per year would be a bit of a rarity though in my experience. Often it is much, much more.

        Specialists have obligations placed on them by the colleges, so an consultant ob, for example, would have CPD which is specifically around obstetrics. I’m not sure if I’m able to provide links here, but check out the Medical Board of Australia website, under the Registration tab, for further information.

        I just can’t believe that your ob would have finished ‘schooling’ (presumably medical school?) and not have done further education. In fact, to get his registration (you only have provisional registration for the first year after graduation from medical school) he would have had to have done. And while he may have learned something from you, as a patient, I’d guess he’d learn a whole lot more from his clinical audits, peer reviews, workshop presentations and the other education and training that he had had as part of his progression from minimum four years of medical education, one year postgrad as an intern, any general medical education and training prior to specialising and the six years of postgraduate hospital-based training and assessment that it involved to obtain his fellowship.

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      • M

        This comment makes no sense. In order to stay registered doctors and nurses are required to undertake mandatory retraining yearly, and also complete a certain number of hours of education each year. They attend regular inservices and are kept up to date with hospital and profession wide protocol changes.
        I seriously doubt you have taught him any evidence based medical knowledge…

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      • Faybian

        You’re actually wrong. Yes, we are busy with patients, but our annual registration requires that we continually update. As a rule, we generally put the evidence of that updating in a folder (for example) so that we can prove that we’ve actually undergone said updates if audited by AHPRA. I have to do 20 hours/year minimum education for each qualification (nursing) as well as having to prove recency of practice in said areas.

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    • Amandarose

      Actually most of what rose said is supported by professionals. I remember hearing bout these options and heavy encouragement to avoid intervention if possible and antenatal classes at a public hospital. It is a bit like the circumcision arguement. there is evidence both ways and it is difficult to decide. So lighten up.

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  3. Anonymous

    I am a bit ignorant (read:childless) about birth. But, from having read the comments I’m now wondering – if not clamping the cord and letting the placenta be birthed naturally is safest for mum and baby, why is it done differently in hospitals? I would think hospitals would do what was safest (for litigation reasons at a minimum, not to mention the hippocratic oath). I’m genuinely curious….

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    • nursee

      There is two ways to manage the birth of the placenta (third stage of labour), active (with drugs) and physiological (without drugs). The WHO recommend that all women be actively managed (drugs given to contract the uterus, placenta pulled out with some help from mum) as it reduces the risk of haemorrhage. There is also delayed cord clamping which is waiting for the cord to stop pulsing before clamping and cutting, the idea is that baby will get more blood but it increases the risk of jaundice.
      Hope that helps :)

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      • Kate E

        There actually aren’t any studies that prove avoiding an unnatural reduction in the baby’s blood volume causes jaundice. The oxford midwives study on delayed clamping included babies exposed to drugs known to cause jaundice, and concluded DCC was the cause? The current Cochrane Review finds an increased risk of jaundice based on one of the review authors own, unpublished studies…therefore there is no way of knowing what the definition of jaundice was, and whether there was any bias, confounding factors (like exposure to narcotics, synthetic oxytocin?)
        Apart from these unpublished studies, no other studies have ever found that a normal blood volume is the cause of pathological jaundice.
        Unfortunately, and hopefully temporarily, practitioners and guidelines are informed by this junk science.

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        • nursee

          I was hoping some one would reply if I were wrong, thank you :) I remember them telling us about the risk of jaundice and DCC at uni but I haven’t looked into it myself.

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          • Kate E

            By quoting the findings of the most recent Cochrane Review, you’re not ‘wrong’ :) . The criticisms of their findings and disproportionate emphasis of jaundice can be found around p86 of the full cochrane review of cord clamping for full term infants. Cheers

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    • Kate E

      Not clamping the cord immediately and allowing placental transfusion is best for (almost) all babies (very few exceptions here). A natural placental birth is only safe when the labour and birth has been natural, and if the woman is low risk.
      Immediately clamping the cord to reduce women’s blood loss at birth is an unproven and unnecessary component of active management – resulting in significant blood loss for the baby (that is not considered in the trials of active management).
      The studies/research that underpin cord clamping practices and physiological vs active management of the placenta have some serious weaknesses, which has resulted in less than ideal clinical practices:
      *none of the studies on cord clamping include births where the cord has not been surgically clamped – none!
      *studies that resulted in recommendations all women should have actively managed placental births were random controlled trials, where women were (dangerously) allocated to a natural third stage regardless of the interventions/lack of normal hormones she may during labour/birth, and included staff that were not trained or experienced in normal, physiological placental birth – women in this group faired poorly compared to the women already given powerful drugs to expel the placenta.
      NZ studies (Dixon, 2009) and Australian studies (Fahy, Hastie et al, 2008) have since shown that for low risk women, active management of the placenta was associated with HIGHER levels of hemorrhage. This scientific evidence supports women seeking practitioners that can safely support normal birth and make a birth plan accordingly.

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      • Faybian

        Good to know. It’s good to have research to back up this still unusual practice. I’ve seen a few physiological 3rd stages and none of them have had a PPH.

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      • Jen

        Hi Kate

        You seem to know what you are talking about so I wondered if I could ask a quick question? When people say delayed cord clamping is best for babies, what does this actually mean, and how much better are we actually talking? I find lots of things are said to be for the best but I find it hard to see the negative impact of what the original position was. Does this make sense? I find the breastfeeding until 2 recommendations to be a bit the same. It’s said to be for the best but I can’t see any difference between 2 year olds who are still being breastfed and those who have been weaned earlier (maybe different in developing countries).

        Given the inflammatory nature of some of these posts I just wanted to clarify again I’m not taking a position, I am just really interested to know. Thanks very much :)

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        • kate e

          Hi Jen :)
          The differences between immediate vs delayed clamping relate to blood volume. Clamping off the cord clamps the baby’s blood vessels and a portion of blood that is supposed to cater to the increased need for volume to perfuse the lungs, maintain a normal blood pressure and support all the organs to commence independent functioning. Immmediate clamping results in an unnatural blood volume, can be cause of a pathological transition and infant anemia (linked to developmental delay).
          Babies that are vigorous and quick to breathe at birth may have no outward differences withimmediate clamping , which explains why it continues today. the same cant be said for volume-deplete babies with immediate clamping, the blood loss and untimely amputation from placental circulation can be fatal or with catastrophic injuries. Science has only just begun to fully explore the ramifications of early clamping, but not in time to prevent the type of misinformation one can find in private cord blood bank advertising. you can find links to scientific research at cord-clamping dot com.

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  4. Princess

    When my son was born, he was born with floppy arms and legs from the pethidine I was given due to my epidural not working fully. I had pre-eclampsia and it was great to be able to have him vaginally-albeit “vacuumed” out. He spent 2 1/2 days in NICU, then 3 1/2 days in SCN. I was grateful to be able to give birth in a level 3 hospital and have a healthy mum and healthy bub.
    My daughter decided to go transverse at 37 weeks, so I was hospitalized with a C-section booked at 38 weeks. She is a willful one, and I went into labour a few days before I was due to have the c-section. Again very lucky to be in a level 3 hospital as I had a cardiac arrest, my heart stopped for 10 seconds, during the c-section and had to spend 36 hours in HDU separated from my baby to ensure I was stable.
    Now on the surface it looks like medical intervention was not good for me, but it saved my life. Pre-eclapmsia can be fatal to mother and baby, so being able to access the best medical care available was a godsend. My son is a very happy, healthy 2 3/4 year old and suffered no ongoing affects from his traumatic birth.
    My daughter, who was unaffected throughout my cardiac arrest, is a beautiful, bouncing 8 month old. I now have had further testing and have found I have heart issues, so effectively, my daughter saved my life.
    I didn’t have a birthplan as such for either baby, but just an end goal of happy, healthy babies and happy, healthy mummy.

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    • Dee

      Princess, I am so relieved to hear your two babies were healthy after what could have been very disasterous circumstances. We are so blessed in this country to have access to excellent health care when needed; it sounds very much like it saved your life and that of your children.
      In terms of birth plans, the vast majority of women have the same end goal as you did; “happy healthy babies and happy healthy, mummy”. Their birth plan is simply one way of breaking down the steps which they feel will help achieve this.

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    • Etta

      So pleased you and your babies are healthy. My mother and brother died as a result of pre-eclampsia, so I’m always pleased to hear good news.

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  5. helen19

    I love this article because Mia’s expressions are so funny- quizzical Labradoodle! It lightens up the fact that birth is such a powerful experience on many levels. I agree, too, that the result is the important thing. My two daughters are in their twenties now and I think how clever and fortunate we were to produce such wonders! I don’t give the nature of their births a thought any more.

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  6. Ck

    I SO agree Mia. And this falls into the same category as breast versus bottle also.
    As long as you get through it and everyone is healthy…. !!!!

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    • Anonymous

      Are you advocating breast feeding here because you indicate a desire for everyone to be healthy…….breast feeding reduces the risk of breast cancer for the mother later in life and reduces the risk of childhood obesity (TCCV).

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  7. Mich

    The OB doctors love women like Mia and her followers. As a L&D nurse the slang terms used for inductions, is pit (pitocin) them till the baby is in distress then cut them out. The doctors are finished dealing with you just in time for dinner with their family. Look at the time you failed to progress 4 or 5 in the evening. or 10/11 at night, bed time. All these women who think the world of their OB, keep on thinking of them like that. You think they don’t make comments about you to the staff. Think of the gossip where ever you work, now think of hospital gossip? You can be very humorous to discuss, especially the family dynamics you live with. All they are trying to do is avoid being a part of your lawsuit, that’s their main focus. Yes, they are compassionate, friendly, interested. You are their client. Just like the sales person selling you a car. Do they think twice about you after you deliver, yes you are still their client. Until you switch doctors. Hospitals don’t refer to people as patients, you are clients behind closed doors. Those who research their information: They know the vitamin K they give every baby in the hospital is linked to childhood leukemia, if you are up for taking chances of weather you child gets it or not go for it. It is your choice. Also, C-sections are a leading cause of infertility. Again if you want to roll the dice that’s your choice. The narcotic drugs you get for pain stays in the babies systems for days and research is showing they are the most susceptible to becoming addicts when they are teens just want to try something. Epidural drugs also cross the placental barrier and is being researched in the increase of ADHD. So all of you who choose not to educate yourself and leave it to luck and a physician who doesn’t have to live with the results more power to you. You are the easy push over client. For those who do their research, more power to you also, you are already advocating for you children. If you think maybe it’s just one hospital, think again. Traveling nurses see everything all over the country.

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    • katehunter

      Oh Mich, I think that if OBs simply wanted to make a squillion dollars by taking advantage of foolish rich women, there are easier ways to go about it than spending 10+ years studying (at uni and in hospitals, not on the internet).

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    • Anon

      Wow, where to start? A whole heap of assertions completely qualified by the fact that you are an L&D nurse.

      C-sections are a leading cause of infertility

      Source?

      They know the vitamin K they give every baby in the hospital is linked to childhood leukemia

      Source?

      The narcotic drugs you get for pain stays in the babies systems for days and research is showing they are the most susceptible to becoming addicts when they are teens just want to try something

      Source? Especially as you mention that there is research. Presumably it is peer reviewed and published in a reputable journal?

      Epidural drugs also cross the placental barrier and is being researched in the increase of ADHD

      Is being researched? So are many, many other things. Is there published research which suggests that epidural drugs crossing the placental barrier cause adverse health outcomes?

      So all of you who choose not to educate yourself and leave it to luck and a physician who doesn’t have to live with the results more power to you.

      What, by googling it? And presumably everyone knows how to assess what constitutes good research as opposed to bad research? They have an understanding of research methodologies, they can understand how data is interpreted and the causative relationship? Can your average hairdresser do this? Or baker? Or real estate agent? Or gym instructor? Or artist? Or lawyer? I’d guess, unless they had studied research as part of a higher degree, no. That’s why we rely on medical professionals and teachers and builders and butchers and electricians and accountants. Because we don’t know as much as them, in their given field.

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      • Kate E

        Anon – if you’re the same person who asked me if there is any evidence traumatic birth can be linked with long term adverse outcomes, I’m starting to think you’re a bit lazy!

        Mich – the hospital practitioners that adminster prophylactic Vit K don’t believe there is evidence it causes childhood leukaemia. A study found a weak correlation between the two, however much larger studies have found no evidence of a causal link.
        Themain issues with Vit K studies include the assumption that human infants are born pathologically deficient in Vit K – and that all the infants in the studies had unnaturally lowered blood volumes at birth (immediate cord clamping). The studies of Vit K deficiency bleeding include mostly babies from the1960s, where restricting breastfeeding was the norm, and bleeding included circumcision, babies with liver disease and those born to mothers taking anticoagulant medications.
        Anon – all this can be found reading the Cochrane Review and associated peer-reviewed studies, which coincidently can be found via google with the right keywords.

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        • Lisa66

          I think the point Anon is making is that if you are going to make assertions and claim there is research to back it up then you should cite the research. I don’t think it is “lazy” to expect this.

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          • Kate E

            I realise this Lisa – and I did respond with the names, authors etc of studies that supported my assertion. I also am aware of the studies that Mich is referring to, some have been discredited, some are very small studies showing a correlation, some have important findings that raise important questions for future research.

            One of the points I made to Anon was that you CAN find Cochrane Reviews, meta analysis and systematic reviews via google…and I don’t expect people to link to their sources in blog comments. I have drafted responses like this, only for the comment to be deleted due to inclusion of html. Not wasting my time like that again LOL.

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            • Anon

              Oops. Now I’ve realised it wasn’t even your original comment I responded to! Apologies – please ignore accusations of not providing sources in my comment below :-)

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            • Lisa66

              Yes, Kate E, you may have, but the original poster (whom Anon was addressing) didn’t. Calling someone lazy when they ask for a poster to cite their sources is rude in my opinion.

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        • Anon

          Hi, yes, it is the same Anon and I did post a follow up to the other comment to clarify what I meant by that comment – it was poorly worded and I didn’t realise it until I saw your response. :-)

          I suppose also my response above was a bit narky and for that I apologise. What I meant, though, was that it is difficult to accept those assertions as credible without understanding where they came from. I saw another response that you did where you refer to particular studies and I think that is great – I wasn’t necessarily requesting a link, I can use Google Scholar myself, but if you refer to the author or name of the particular study, it obviously makes it a lot clearer. Alternatively, if it is based on your own professional observations, then that is also useful to know because it informs the credibility of the comment.

          My point at the bottom was about the ability of people to access and understand research which you didn’t address. It is one thing to be able to google something, another thing entirely to understand what weight to apply to a particular piece of research when you don’t understand the principles of research – which most people don’t. I should also be clear – that is not a slight on anyone’s intelligence; merely, that it is an acknowledgement that we all have different educational, vocational and professional backgrounds.

          I’m not going to go to the hairdresser and tell him or her what scissors to use. I may show them a picture, perhaps ask for their advice, and then let them do their thing…that is what they know, after all.

          And yes, when it comes to childbirth, the stakes are much higher than a dodgy fringe – I’d argue that it therefore means that the acceptance of a professional view is even more important. That does not mean that we can’t ask for second or even third opinions but, just as I’m not going to ask a builder for a second opinion on how my hair should be cut (I’d ask another hairdresser), I’d make sure that anyone I consult for a subsequent opinion on childbirth has the appropriate knowledge, skills, experience and qualifications.

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          • Kate E

            Hi Anon
            I agree with everything you’ve written – but I’m sure you can tell from my writing today, I believe there is one important area of childbirth where the science is poor, lacks any physiological ‘control’, and is underpinned by ritual and not evidence. The reason I am here is because Mia mocked the mother interested in placental birth planning, which includes timing of umbilical cord clamping. When women consult highly-trained obstetricians and midwives on this subject, they are likely to receive advice that reflects the poor quality science that currently exists.

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    • Anon

      Mich, your response has just proven to me yet again why I could NEVER work in America (I am a Australian midwife). I pray we don’t follow suit in this country.

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    • Janed

      Thank you for your honesty Mich. That would explain the 78% increase in C section rates in Australia and in Queensland it is 1 in 3 births. We have one of the highest rates in the world for what should be a natural low risk process. Pit them?

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      • Chelsea!

        Mitch, you’ve done a bit of google research.
        Get back to us when you have a MBBS or a PhD or an MD.

        It’s just so frustrating that everyone thinks they know everything about everything because they’ve clicked a few google links.
        Here’s a tip: the internet is full of crap!
        How can you possibly think you have more knowledge than someone who’s devoted their entire life to a particular field after a quick internet search??
        Sure a little scepticism is good – but really if we can’t trust professionals then who can we trust?

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        • Elizabeth.

          Exactly….I mean what would an obstertrician know??? (sorry can’t spell)…mean all those years of medical training…specialist training…almost an entire decade…I mean what would they know? ;-)

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    • anon

      As someone who has had 4 c-sections and a failure to progress at 3am I would like to suggest that not every fact you quote is accurate.

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    • Anonymous

      I can see what you’re saying. Some doctors are derogatory and condescending behind your back. To be honest, I don’t really care. It’s human nature. Just like some teachers talk about parents that frustrate and no doubt some nurses do do. doesn’t mean we shouldn’t value their professional knowledge. Or generalise an entire profession. Not every doctor is “pitting” someone to be home in time for their dinner. Some do. Just like some doctors over medicate children, don’t listen to their patients etc etc. But not all. And if you find one you trust, what’s so wrong with that. My doctor needed to cut me open to save my life and my children’s. I really don’t care if he rolled his eyes about me later…

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    • Faybian

      For starters, health care is practiced far differently in the US than here. See we don’t have l&d nurses, we have midwives. See the 2 versions of one born every minute (uk & us) to see the difference. We are far more like the uk.
      Have heard some (not all) of those conspiracy theories, but I’m yet to see any decent research on them.

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    • Rebecca

      “Hospitals don’t refer to people as patients, you are clients behind closed doors.”

      Given that (meme alert) “pregnancy is not a disease”, I would have thought you’d appreciate the hospital making this important distinction.

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      • Emkay

        I can assure you I have NEVER heard patients being referred to as clients! These accusations people make about doctors putting patients at risk or birthraping them in order to “be home for dinner” are just beyond wild and hysterical at times. Every fucking doctor in Australia is used to missing meals, training is hard work, we don’t have some ‘schedule’ to work to. Decades of study and commitment make it pretty clear to you that dinner is no big deal.

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  8. MamaMel

    I am not going to enter into this debate. However, I will say that when I was pregnant with my first child, I felt an amazing connection to all of the women who had gone before me in doing this miraculous thing known as carrying a baby! Did anyone else experience that feeling? Like they were part of a legendary sisterhood? Anyway, in that feeling of connectedness with other women who had had babies before, I was curious about how other women did various things and what it was like for them, so in conversations I would often ask questions of mums who had children. Maybe this woman at the BBQ felt similarly and was genuinely interested in what Mia, as an experienced mum of three, thought about the issue. Just a thought.

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    • Heidi Hodder

      Yes I totally felt that!! Even felt connected far back to my mammalian ancestors. It sounds strange now, & it hasn’t turned me vegetarian or anything, but at the time I was just so blown away, it was amazing to think of women having done this throughout the ages

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  9. alliekat

    You know, the more I think about this article, the more Mia reminds me of the Queen Bee at highschool. I’m sorry but it’s true ‘Oooh, there is this group of girls I don’t like. They think differently to me, they are WEIRD. I know – I will come up with a mocking and mean name for them and spread it around by writing it on the toilet walls (newspaper/website etc) so everyone can join in with me. HardyHaHa!! You girls are weird and gross and different!! I am so much better than you and I am not in the least interested in understanding your perspective, instead I will stab you with my sausage. Judgy Judge Judge’

    Of course… until tomorrow when she writes a post about how mothers shouldnt judge each other. Poor form, Mia, poor form. No skin off your nose if I write a birth preferences list because I am truly invested in the health and wellbeing of my baby? Not asking you to understand but perhaps you could hold back on the mocking. I mean, seriously – arent we out of highschool yet??

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    • Kathy W

      Oh by jeepers – it’s an OPINION piece. If we all had vanilla opinions about everything wouldn’t this world be so boring.

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    • Anonymous

      Totally agree Alliekat. I didn’t have a birthplan for any of my 3 children. It didn’t interest me. BUT, just as I don’t think a birthplan mother should call me a ‘lazy no planner’, I don’t need to call anyone that does write one a birthzilla to feel better about my own choices. Sure if you’re shoving your birthplan superiority in my face, I might say something. But what I object to is the shoving in my face, not the actual birthplan. I know plenty of mum’s who had one, but haven’t needed to share the details with me and I don’t need to judge and generalise them all as birthzillas. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I realise this: My birthplan was to not have a birthplan…so I still had a birthplan of sorts, which makes me not that different to the mums that have things written down.
      **You are so right about highschool. Don’t disagree with me, or I’ll call you names. Very mature!

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    • Anonymous

      Yes! I’ve often thought that about the whole Mamamia site, it’s like an insight into the popular girls group.

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    • Bryter Later

      Couldn’t agree more.

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    • Wendy

      I have been reading these comments thinking this post is why I’m never coming back to Mamamia. You said it perfectly. And how many posts about birth choices have I read in here in the last three months. Yawn.

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  10. Seahorse

    No need to stereotype Birth Plans as being selfishly motivated or having only the mothers interests at heart. Living in a foreign country with different midwifery practices to Australia I had/have a birth plan written for midwifery staff that has nothing to do with what will happen to me and is entirely focussed on what will happen with our baby – straight to me for skin-to-skin, no injections or medication without parental sign-off, no pacifiers bottles or formula without sign-off, rooming-in… all standard stuff you would have taken for granted Mia, and all with bubs best interest at heart. Certainly not “experiential” stuff.

    Similarly the Aussie mums I know with birth plans are neither self-interested nor focussed on the “experience” or showing off to their mates. They are all just anxious about making the best decisions for their babies in their first steps as parents. Shouldn’t we be encouraging parents to get involved and informed and care about their kids?

    And btw having an oxytocin injection to speed up your third stage (placenta delivery) has a huge bearing on the likelihood of a mum to haemorage, amongst other things. If you choose to place those decisions in drs hands that’s fine, but its unfair that you knock someone else for being more informed than you. It seems pretty weird to promote ignorance rather than encouraging people to get involved in their own medical decisions. Smacks of the last article you wrote about immunization, also encouraging people to not get informed and just do what the dr tells you. I just think that’s fundamentally wrong. By all means correct disinformation, but please stop encouraging ignorance.

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    • Anon

      Bravo :)

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    • Ally

      This. A thousand times this!

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    • Katie

      I 100% agree with this – couldn’t have said it better myself!

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  11. Carole Lee

    Hi Mia, Your column about the birthing experience made me laugh! I was born in 1957 and my mother wasn’t told hardly anything about an actual birth. She was in hospital with a 36 hour labour. She said even though she had an enema she felt she wanted to ‘go’, so she kept getting off the bed and go to the toilet. Eventually a nurse caught her, asked her what she was doing, and told her that she had gone to the next stage. I could have been born in a toilet! After my birth Mum was asked did she want a look at the placenta, and she said, no. She told me all she wanted was a cigarette and a cup of tea! How times have changed!

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  12. Hannah

    I find these women hilarious. I think it’s a fear of not being in control that makes them act like that. My birth plan? Drugs. Lots of drugs. Then enjoy my baby for the rest of my life.

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    • Anon

      But perhaps not a lot for the first few days as your baby’s immature liver tries to metabolise a whole heap of drugs out of its system….. A drugged baby often won’t feed which then leads to weight loss, increased risk of jaundice, increased likelihood of having to give formula, increased rates of nursery admission. If you want lots of drugs go for it, but don’t laugh at women who don’t (ie. thinking they are “hilarious”).

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      • Anonymous

        how is she on her high horse, she is just stating the facts. If you want a baby on drugs that’s your choice. Just know there are consequences, whether good or bad, with every decision you make.

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      • Amy

        Ridiculous, anon. The drugs won’t reach the baby – educate yourself before spreading misinformation, please. There’s nothing special about labor pain. The normal response is to want to ameliorate it. We have very safe ways of doing that. Your claims have not been sunstantiated by research.

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        • Anon

          Amy are you being sarcastic?? If you have done ANY research, you would know that the drugs do very much reach the baby. This is proven fact. Proven. I’m not saying they kill or maim the baby but they do have an impact upon the newborn. I’m talking about narcotic analgesia. Not sure what you are talking about.
          I am a university lecturer on the topic of midwifery (I think 12 years in the field means I have “educated” myself) and I assure you, I do NOT make unsubstantiated claims. Pot. Kettle. Black. That’s all I have to say to you.

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        • Anonymous

          Where did you get your information from Amy? Whoever told you that drugs won’t reach the baby wasn’t being honest. (I’m assuming that someone has misinformed you and that you are not outright lying).

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        • Faybian

          Then why was my oldest born flat as a tack? Couldn’t have been because I had pet hiding only an hour or 2 before she came out could it. She only livened up after they injected her cord vein with narcan (narcotic reversal drug).
          You may need to read up a bit (more) about this issue.

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          • Faybian

            Crap, pethidine not pet hiding. Stupid autocorrect.

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  13. Sarah

    I think my “birth plan” was the best by far. Simplicity at its finest

    GET BABY OUT.

    It’s all you need to do really. There’s no point stressing over something you have little control over. I could have made lists and lists of birth plans, but they all would have been thrown out the window the moment I needed to have an emergency c-section.

    Chill & enjoy your pregnancy ladies!

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  14. sophtan

    great article! I had a little girl in December and said to my Dr beforehand I didn’t care how the baby came out as long as it came out alive and healthy. I left the care into his hands being the expert and my focus is more on bringing her up and doing right by her. I’ve spoken with people who have had a ‘birthplan’ and majority of the time that haven’t gone to plan! next time i’ll be asking for the epidural again but thats as far as any plan goes!

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  15. Anon

    I am so happy not to have had children in Australia if this is something that I could have expected. When I was pregnant, it was actually not a subject that came up a whole lot, except with my partner and families, and I’m grateful for it. I didn’t expect that people would be that interested in the day-to-day progression of my pregnancy any more than I would be their’s. When we saw friends we spoke about what we had always spoken about – shows we had seen, books we had read, current affairs, food, holidays, politics, religion, football.

    Following the birth, we probably spoke about the children a little more – “oh, we’re struggling a little with the lack of sleep” or to mention milestones like first steps, first words etc. However, it is *still* not something we speak with our friends about a whole lot. Our roles as parents have undoubtedly changed us but it is still only part of our identity and our everyday lives – we have jobs, we have interests, we have opinions and we talk about these as well. Our friends have gone on to have children now and I think that they are very much the same – they view it as one part of their identities.

    I accept that some people may find this strange or that we don’t appreciate how much we have been blessed with our children. That is not the case. When we are asked about the children, we will speak about them. I have had no one socially ask me about the births and very few around breastfeeding, co-sleeping or the like. I’d perhaps offer my opinion if asked, but never unsolicited.

    As we settle into life in Australia now, I hope that I don’t have to meet these people who seem so fixated on birth or breastfeeding – I’m just not interested. I do agree with the sentiment of the article though – whatever has happened at the point of the birth of our children, they are growing up healthy and happy and that is my concern. And the years after the birth are so much harder (and unrelenting!) than the birth itself. I think it is an appropriate parallel to draw – the concept of the Bridezilla caring about the wedding over the marriage and the Birthzilla concerning herself more with the birth than what comes after!

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  16. Fleur

    Wow, you say “The game of My Birth Was Better Than Yours is an ugly, destructive one.” after putting down anyone who has a birth plan..that’s a bit of a double standard isn’t it??

    I had no plan for my first birth and for me personally it was a horrible experience that I believe resulted in an inability to bond with my baby and PND for a good year or so.

    Six years later I’m now over it and ready to go through it again this October. This time around I’ve chosen a different route – midwife centered care and hopefully a water birth (in a birth center attached to a hospital) but if I need medical intervention I’ll take it.

    It’s great that you had wonderful experiences without any birth plans, but to be categorised by you as a birthzilla because I’ve chosen to exercise my right to plan for the birth of MY baby (while excitedly sharing plans with close pregnant friends who are going private and considering ceasars which I totally support if that’s THEIR choice) is just plain judgmental and rude.

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    • Seahorse

      Like.

      Love to know why people can’t see that planning to avoid PND is in the best interests of your bub. Best of luck!

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      • Anon

        I’m sure every woman plans to avoid PND but is it the case that women with birth plans have lower cases of PND as opposed to those that didn’t?

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        • K8e.

          I’d like to see the figures on that too… given planning can lead to increased expectations and stress… which could also be as negative as feeling out of control with no plan…!

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  17. Kathy

    It’s incredible how some women seem to have skim read the article to pick out points they can get pissed off about. The article I read was about the ridiculousness of all the judgments and comparisons about birth! You are not more special and strong and powerful because you gave birth without drugs than a woman who had a caesarean. Those people who are also defending plans and the importance of “finding out a little about the birth process” I think are taking it a bit too far, I didn’t pick up the suggestion that you should be purposefully ignorant just that you should be aware things may not go perfectly. I have a friend who doesn’t reveal to anyone how she gave birth and people are always trying to pry it out of her! “How was your birth?” her- “great I had a baby.” them- “was there a lot of pain?” her- “it’s birth” *changes subject* I LOVE seeing their faces as they try to think of the magic question where she will reveal all the details! The thing is they soon forget, it doesn’t matter!

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  18. Tracey Groombridge

    I usually love Mamamia articles but i knew there would come a time when i didn’t agree, This is the day.
    Can we go a little easy on other women, and labelling them as birthzilla’s isn’t helpful to anyone.
    The reason some women may be fixated on their birth experience is because they experience trauma and women often deal with trauma by talking about it time and time again. Even among privileged women we can have a traumatic birth experience, especially if that women has other factors like an unsupported family or partner, past sexual abuse, rape survivors and other pre-determining issues. This is not a black and white issue.
    My second thought is if women are requesting more power over their birth experiences then why? What is happening that we feel so out of control having a baby that we need to have control over every part of the experience.
    Thirdly this is a article that generalises something Mia is usually good at not doing. Not all women who have plans are obsessed and don’t care any less about their babies. So what if someone has a plan for a plancenta they are different. What an awful world if we were all the same.
    Fourthly, lets not blame and shame other women lets try and understand and ask questions, we may not agree with a birth plan but for some women that level of control keeps the dreaded anxiety and depression at bay.
    Happy birthing everyone.
    Tracey

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  19. penny

    Great piece Mia. The issue of “control” is a big one in our society. Somehow we think we can control life and sometimes we just can’t.

    I wonder how people who focus on controlling their birth plans are going to cope when they try applying their ‘control’ to their ‘once-was-baby-now-rebellious-teenager’.

    By all means people should be informed but the idea of control is very much a psychological illusion.

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    • Tracey Groombridge

      To Penny,
      So you don’t try and influence anything in your life then, is there nothing we can control is it all about chaos? The more women become anxious the more control they feel they need. You must be one chill outed person lucky you. However we all try and control things in our life, sometimes with success sometimes not but we all try we are human.

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      • penny

        Yes I understand that Tracey as part of the human condition, however I have also experienced trauma of the most unbearable kind and can say that I had no choice but to relinquish control to accept that my child died.

        I don’t mean that we shouldn’t try to control aspects of our lives that relate to our place in society. Rather we sometimes don’t have the power to control the way things turn out and with this understanding has to come a level of acceptance because as you say we are only human and so is everybody else.

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        • Tracey Groombridge

          HI Penny,
          I’m sorry you have experienced losing a child that’s probably my greatest fear. I do agree you have to at some point relinquish control of the things you can’t control i have been there too. However we do need to feel some level of control in our lives and a birth just spot lights that, fear usually controls how much control we need. Thanks for your response appreciate it.

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  20. Lisa66

    Love your work, Mia.

    I’ve had three kids. Each birth was different. Two of them were traumatic in that there big, unforseen medical issues. Thank God, I was in a hospital and there were suitably qualified and experienced professionals to ensure my kids were born safely. The births weren’t as I’d planned (I did have a birth plan for the first one, which makes me laugh now!) but the outcome of each was a beautiful healthy baby. Surely that’s what’s important?

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  21. The Original Steph

    I’ve questioned my own personal responses to the idea that c-sections “are not real births/disempowering/disappointing.” Yes, I have had all of those terms said to me after undergoing two surgeries that saw my two live sons lifted into the light of the world, amidst laughter and joy.
    I have also endured a vaginal birth, with the knowledge that my daughter who was in my womb was already dead. I pushed her out, silently, and she slipped out to the sound of nothing but adults crying…not the baby.
    Funnily, my vaginal stillbirth was designated as “empowering” by one friend. The same friend deemed my c-sections of my live sons “disappointing.”
    The natural childbirth movement has a lot to answer for when the skewed mentality that a vaginal stillbirth is more fulfilling than a live c-section is doing the rounds.
    I have absolutely nothing against women who are proud of their birth experience. But the pride should not be limited to those who delievered naturally.
    Sometimes I wonder if I am missing something fundamental when I hear women speak and say that their birth experience was so terribly important. I understand that birth trauma does occur,and that rates of PPD are higher amongst women who have had an experience that didnt go as planned and was impeded (so I have been told, I dont have a link,sorry.) I validate all of that. However, empowerment comes in all packages. The most empowering experience of my life was having my baby boy delivered by section after his sister’s stillbirth only 10 months before. There are many women out there for whom birth is identity and definition. If we are going to do that, then I define myself as a mother for whom experience is second and safety is paramount.
    For those who continue to suffer birth trauma, my heart goes out to you. I continue to suffer PTSD and GAD due to my daughter’s stillbirth. I have worked hard to overcome the physical symptoms, although my grief will never dissipate. With appropriate counselling, the effects of birth trauma can be managed. However, nothing is so traumatic as holding your perfect, but dead, baby. Hindsight is a luxury. We never know how things would have turned out if intervention was not used.

    For the record. I spent some time with mothers of premature babies when my third child was born 15 months ago.
    Women who have gone into spontaneous labour at 27, 28, 29 weeks. Who were rushed to a theatre to undergo an emergency section, then watched as their baby fought for breath and life in an incubator, sometimes for months. Who had other children at home, and they wanted their mother. Women who spent days inside the four walls of the NICU, pumping milk, not sleeping, having scare after scare as their baby’s lung collapsed, then suffered a brain haemorrage,or seized from hypoglycemia.
    When I compare *these* women to those who had straightforward, unimpeded, natural, full term births and healthy babies…I know who are the strong ones, the brave ones. Just sayin’.

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    • MamaMel

      Big hugs to you, Steph. That’s all I have to say xx

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    • jetmum

      Ohh Steph, if I could only reach through my computer right now to give you a hug, I would!!

      You have just written the exact post that I wish I had the words & ability to have written myself. Our stories are so incredibly similar, except my one and only vaginal birth was to a son. Also heartbreakingly stillborn at 26 weeks :-(

      A little over a year later his brother was born by emergency c-section at 1.40am after my waters broke at 35 weeks. To this day I still get goosebumps when I remember that deafening silence as he was delivered, followed by the most joyous of sounds, his first cry. He was lucky & spent just 2 weeks in SCN and while it was a nightmarish time in many ways, it was so much better then the alternate outcome we had already lived through.

      My daughter followed by planned c-section at 38 weeks, healthy, full term & alive and I am lining up for my 3rd c-section later this year. And I am terrified, but also reassured in knowing that my baby will be born in a hospital with all of the best available medical knowledge, medical personnel, and equipment available today in our lucky, lucky, lucky first world.

      I have had people earnestly explain to me that a c-section simply doesn’t count as “giving birth” and another, just today, react in horror when I explained that no, we don’t know the sex of our unborn baby, and have no desire to find out (until D-Day), as all that matters to us is that we get to bring this baby home. The look of sheer incomprehension on her face was priceless. And just a little bit heartbreaking.

      Like you, I have close friends who have also travelled the nightmarish road of delivering premature babies. I am so thankful for the ones that eventually make it home, and so sad for the little souls who don’t. But overall I am so grateful for the medical knowledge, research & equipment available in this country, which at the end of the day has saved countless lives of both babies & their mothers. Isn’t that what truly counts???

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  22. Anonymous

    GREAT article Mia, loved it!!! You have so nailed it with the Birthzilla term and i could not agree more. Thank you for publishing this today – this whole competitive birth thing is just getting out of hand. Big pat on the back for you and your continued bravery to talk openly and put your opinion forward….:D

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  23. Sharnanigans

    I am about to give birth to my second child, and my first delivery was very traumatic, long and resulted in C-section – my entire pregnancy I have been suffering anxiety and depression and crippling fear about the upcoming birth. Should I put these feelings to the side and get over myself – this experience not being about me? Due to my current condition (36 weeks and quite frankly still scared) I find this article insulting. I do believe that the birth experience is as much about the Mother as the Baby and the journey is to be taken together. I know it is boring to hear about the details of one’s birth,but I do think that the feelings and needs of the mother are extremely important. When they are not treated as such it can lead to trauma that doesn’t leave in a hurry.

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    • Mooner

      Hi Sharnanigans, I am very sorry to hear that. I hope you have at least been given the option of a repeat caesarean. I was in a similar position to you and a planned caesarean can be a wonderful experience.

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      • Sharnanigans

        Thanks Mooner. Yes I have been given the option of a c-section and grappling over it at the moment. There is a sense of guilt that if I go for c-section I am (heaven forbid) making it about what feels easier for me, and not necessarily what is best for the baby. Just call me Birthzilla.

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        • MDW

          My first baby was born the same way, long traumatic labor ending in an emergency c/s. I went on to have 2 repeat elective c-sections and they were both wonderful experiences, so calm and under control. Don’t feel guilty, what is best for you IS best for your baby.

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        • Claire

          Don’t feel bad about having a planned C-Section, your mental health is important to your baby as well as you. Hang in there, won’t be long before you have a gorgeous newborn in your arms. x

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  24. PixiMum

    OK, I’m going to stick my neck out for this one.

    What parent in the world wouldn’t jump in front of a car or even have a limb cut off to save their child? So, why is the act of birth any different?

    Why is it such a big thing for people to have a birth experience that is less than what they imagined before going into labour? You will always be a different parent from the one you imagined anyway.

    I know from experience things can change and go wrong very quickly in labour. Even after an easy and low-risk pregnancy. I am sooooo grateful that I got to give birth in a first world hospital with a great ob and world of support and equipment.

    Surely the only desired outcome from giving birth is the warm, breathing crying child to hold at the end of it? And the years and years ahead to spend together.

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  25. Kim

    I had a wondering birth experience! Through the public health care system I had my own midwife for ante natal care, delivery and follow up care at home. I had a water birth without any drugs on board in a public hospital. My partner and I prepared for the birth with classes, including hypnobirthing. I was reassured knowing that medical intervention was available to me if I needed it. Mia is talking only about the two extreme views of child birth, most of us are realistic and well informed. Celebrate these stories so expectant new mums can have a positive experience!

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  26. Mum of 3

    When I am asked what my birth plan was, I always answer ‘short labour, baby with small head and slim shoulders’. When people point out that I don’t have control over those things, I point out that you really do not have control over very much at all.

    I like the comment below about birth preferences. I think it is extremely important to have discussed with your birth partner and your doctor (or midwife or whoever is there) what you would prefer to happen (ie do you want drugs, minimal intervention) so everyone is on the same page. Then there is the reality of what actually happens on the day.

    Where I have seen people I know come unstuck is to go in thinking that if it does not all go to their very detailed plan, it is a failure. I know someone who was unable to bond with her baby for days as she was so distraught with it going so off plan. That is just crazy as the most important thing should always be the health of mother and baby.

    I had long labours and I had an epidural with two (and was pretty annoyed when I went to have one with no 3 and got a baby instead!). My births are no better or worse than anyone else. They were not any more or less ‘real’ nor do they make me more of less of a woman. They are what they are.

    They gave me three beautiful kids and I don’t think anyone looks at them (or me) and thinks ‘she had an epidural’! though I do like to remind my 12yo of the 2 days I spent in labour with her when the occasion suits me…

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  27. ace1

    love this!! there is far too much competition over something that we quite frankly can’t control every aspect of!
    it pays to be informed and to go in knowing what your preferences are, but flexibility is key. a result with a healthy, happy mum and bub is the most important thing.
    i remember wanting an intervention free birth, but ended up with the works including an emergency c-section. i would have given birth standing on my head if that’s what the doctor and midwives had told me would mean my bub made it out safely :) 11 years on, i can’t remember all the specifics of my birth plan and many years down the track i’m not sure many other mums will either.

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  28. Amanda

    It’s useful to look beyond what people say and do and try to find the emotion that drives it. Maybe women seeking to control their birth experience are just scared to death, maybe we shouldn’t judge their reaction and instead seek to understand the emotion behind it. Maybe women who boast about their birth experience don’t feel proud of much in their life and for once they’re proud of something. Maybe showing compassion without judging and labelling is far more positive for everyone than name calling.

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    • K8e.

      i wiswh i could like this commend 10000000 x over.

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    • K8e.

      i wiswh i could like this comment 10000000 x over.

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  29. Anon

    There seem to be a few comments below about having a birth plan so you can consider the risks of various options and make choices for a safe delivery.

    I agree that it is good to be informed about everything, but no matter how much research you do, it seems highly unlikely that you will ever be as well informed as your obstetrician. Yes, things do sometimes go wrong and doctors sometimes make bad decisions, but those cases are by far in the minority. Also, you are less likely to be thinking objectively or clearly about things in a crisis compared to the doctors who do it day in day out. You can read statistics about the likelihood of certain outcomes from doing something, but those statistics are fairly general. Often the risks associated with a particular action have to be considered in a broader matrix of circumstances that a simple X% statistic doesn’t necessarily take into account.

    I think the danger of birth plans is when people become absolutely attached to them, and then feel devasted or like a failure if things don’t go to plan. By all means have a birth plan if you think it will help you think through what the birthing process will involve and if it helps you feel more at ease going into it. However, treat it as a flexible “wish list”, not as a checklist you need to fulfil to get a perfect birth score.

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    • Mia

      Couldn’t agree more.

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    • Kim

      I agree on the whole. However one thing you haven’t considered it that all health professionals, including obstetricians are bound by hospital policy and procedure, which influences decision making. These policy’s and procedures could be in stark contrast to your situation and birth preferences. For example, a hospital may have a policy to induce at 40 weeks plus 11 days. However some women can safely carry a baby to 42+ weeks. The problem is that these things are not always clearly communicated!

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      • Kris

        Those policies and procedures are in place for a reason, though. And have been made by people with years and years of experience of all different types of births. So if that’s in stark contrast to your preferences, that’s really something you need to deal with rather than cracking it thinking you know more about the birth process than the actually trained obstetricians and midwives who came up with the policies and procedures and do actually know what is best.

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        • Kim

          Kris,
          I totally agree they are in place for a reason based on rigorous research. It was actually my midwife who told me about how certain policies and procedures wouldn’t suit my birth preferences and was her who encouraged me to not follow certain protocol. For example, the GBS swab is done routinely at some hospitals and not at all at other hospitals, clinical reasoning based on the same research.

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  30. Amanda

    When I was expecting my first baby I had no idea of what having a new little person in every minute of my daily life was going to be like…it’s the ultimate unknown. Focussing on my pregnancy & birth for me was a way of connecting with my baby (who was really a stranger to me) & preparing for something I had no real concept of in a positive way.
    As with all things in life balance is the key. There are those who are completely disinterested in the way their baby enters the world & those who obsess wholly on controlling the birth ‘experience’…extremism on both ends of the spectrum is probably not ideal.

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  31. Alissa

    I did the best I could do in my hospital birth. I couldn’t hack the contractions 30 seconds on top of each other after being induced so intense so I asked, begged for an epidural. I know better than anyone that motherhood is a competitive
    Subject. For every argument for is an argument against. I’m not
    Perfect, I’ve judged before, silently in my own home to my husband so maybe it is my karma but when asked if I had drugs and answer truthfully, yes, I did! Some of my mother friends (friends I was with before
    We became mothers) could’ve burnt me at the stake just with the fire coming from their eyes. “omg really I did it all drug free” I feel like
    Parting them on the back “good on you!” no, really good on them! I’m happy for them but we all have different pain, we all have different labours, we all have different mother hood experiences. I’m slowly learning to let it roll off of my shoulders but not after weeping in my bedroom about every little snarky comment.

    I wanted to be mentally prepared so I went in and when asked if they could scan over my birth plan that I printed from the Huggies website I said “oh I just want to go with the flow” I put all of my trust and faith into these doctors and they did an exceptional job. I guess I am one of the lucky ones, I know some are betrayed in their trust and dwell on their labour because it’s a big
    Part of them and they can’t move on from it. So, I’m not going to judge those women because I haven’t been in their shoes. All I ask is that Im not judged for my birth either.

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    • Hear hear

      There is no long term effect from an epi…..it’s isn’t about who can hack it and who can’t ….you made a medical choice to hel you in labor….don’t be ashamed! Save your tears for those who are still waiting for there no drug birth trophies …. And before anyone starts scream about wha right do I have to judge no drug births…I’ve had two and two with drugs and id much prefer the drugs thanks!

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  32. Mooner

    Hi there, while I totally agree with this article for the most part, I don’t think it’s fair to completely dismiss the idea that the woman has any say in the way the labour & birth progresses. Where a medical intervention is optional and not necessary, I would think the woman should be given that option? e.g. “You’ve been in labour for a long time, but everything is fine. However, we could give you some pitocin to speed things up?”… is different to “We are concerned that this labour is not progressing and would like to try some pitocin to strengthen your contractions which will help us discover whether there is another reason that this baby is not coming down.” (I’m not a midwife or obstetrician so maybe that scenario would never happen but I’m just trying to give an example!).

    Ultimately though, like Mia, I am a “do what the medical professionals tell you to” kind of girl! And I have had 2 caesareans so by no means a ‘natural at all costs’ kind of girl! The first time around I had no choice about my caesarean, the second time I did. I can’t say that either was better than the other really. In some ways it was nice to have the decision taken out of my hands. However, both times I was given plenty of warning so had time to prepare and sometimes I think that’s all it is that makes you feel better about it: time. Unfortunately, in an emergency, time is what you do not have and that is when you just have to deal with it & realise that your need for time to mentally prepare comes second to the need to ensure the safety of you and your baby.

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  33. Ruth

    I would be careful.

    I would hate for the mama who had a traumatic cesarean from having flashbacks of her childhood sexual or physical abuse on the operating table as she’s being pulled and tugged without control of her body to read this. It may make it seem like the way she birthed didn’t matter; that it’s all okay as long as she and the baby are healthy (physically, as ‘healthy’ is usually defined).

    I’m personally glad you had a great experience birthing, which in turn has lead you to have an amazing mothering experience. That’s simply not true for every woman. In fact, for some it’s the opposite. A poor, dis-empowering birth where the mother was left to feel like she has no choices and no say in what happens to her body or her baby can lead to some serious issues postpartum. A poor postpartum in turn, can then lead to a poor mothering, and so on….

    So, just please be respectful, of all women. :)

    Thanks.

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    • Anon

      A question for you – in the example you cited, what would you do differently? If it is a medically necessary casearean, then whilst it is unfortunate that the mother may have the flashbacks, I’m not sure that it is avoidable?

      Yes, the mother needs support to help her address the feelings that were brought up during the birthing process – there is no question about that. And I would never suggest that she just needs to “get over it”. But the abuse she suffered earlier in life seems to be the real culprit, not the birth.

      I apologise if anything I have said here appears to be disrespectful, as that is not my intention. They are genuine thoughts/queries.

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      • Ruth

        You are absolutely right. The previous abuse was the culprit. This mama would need someone supporting her prenatally to prepare her for all the things that could happen, even the things she doesn’t plan for.

        If the mother feel involved in what is going on, asked questions, involved in the decisions, etc. Then that is more likely to keep her in the present moment instead of going back inside her head and getting lost.

        How does this look?
        Mom has birth plan. It says “I’d prefer to avoid a cesarean when it is not medically necessary” (notice she doesn’t say ‘I’m not going to have’….)
        Baby’s hear rate gets crazy, or her BP rises, or whatever. Dr/MW says, this is where we are at. This is what is going on. These are the risks of continuing labour, these are your options. I’ll give you some time to think/pray/process, etc.
        Mom is left with doula/partner/whoever, even just for 10 seconds to try and wrap her head around what is about to happen.
        In the OR, support person is by her head telling her what is going on presently with her body. What the sensations are that she is feeling. Gets the mom talking and keeping her present.
        She gets to see her baby, hold her baby, nurse her baby, etc, and is told, ‘look what YOU did!’ Not, ‘Look at the baby the Dr/MW ‘delivered”.
        Mom is then in contact with pp support persons to help her process anything she needs to.

        Good question by the way.
        Birth is like life smushed into 1-2 days. You prepare, things don’t ever go as planned, but you stay conscious, present, and make choices, even if those choices are obvious like, ‘keep laboring and risk baby’s death or go for the CS that I’m really scared of.’

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  34. mumma of 4

    I think the word ‘plan’ should be removed and we should focus on birth preferences. No one knows no matter how many births they have attended or had themselves how each will unfold.

    It is great to be proactive about what is important to you or pregnancy, birth and the postnatal period, but there should never be a set in stone plan as that can just lead to unmet expectations.

    I think most importantly we should support one another and celebrate our differences when it comes to this special time in our lives as women. The judgement and criticism only creates a further divide among us. This is a very personal and raw emotional time for women all and seeing what we find important to us and recognising how that suits us and only us would go a long way in creating a culturally supportive environment for ALL women, no matter what their ‘preferences’ are.
    Just a thought :-D

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    • hayz

      What a great idea! Birth preferences, is much better. I’m feeling better already. I’m due to give birth yesterday so this post is close to my heart. A few weeks back my GP said that I’d have to have a c- sect and I was crestfallen. After chatting to some women on line about how I was feeling I realised how stupid and selfish it was to make the birth about me. As iot turns out I can try for a natural birth which is my preference but I’m a lot happier knowing that if a c-sect will deliver my baby safely that’s all that matters!

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    • Anon

      Totally agree re “birth preferences” vs “bith plan”. A plan suggests that something can be followed from start to finish without deviation. Preferences are things that we would ideally like to happen, while acknowledging that they might not.

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    • Mum of 3

      Great suggestion!

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    • Téa

      Just one question though…

      Whose ‘preference’ deviates from a straightforward, complication-free delivery? The vast majority of women, when asked, have the same preference.

      It seems redundant. Maybe I am missing something here.

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      • Megan

        Because preference doesn’t have to be about just the method of delivery. In my last birth plan I had things like I wanted the lights to be kept dim, talking to be kept to a minimum during contractions unless I initiated it etc etc. I also had preferences in case of a c-section, I wanted my twins to be kept together where possible, my husband to go with them to special care, skin to skin with husband if they were well enough, no dummies etc etc etc etc.

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      • Anonymous

        Things like regular labor ward vs. birthing center, lying down vs. standing up or sitting, gas or pethidine or epidural, cutting vs. tearing.

        For myself I told the midwife that I would prefer to stay standing and not lie on the bed so they got a mat out of the cupboard and put it on the floor for me so that when it got to the end bit I didn’t have to climb onto the bed or lie on the hard floor. And when I first got into the room I said that I didn’t want an epidural, I told them so that they would know and not keep asking me if I wanted one. Also if you know you want an epidural it’s good to tell them early because sometimes there is only 1 anaestheologist (sp?) and several women wanting epidurals so it can be a case of get in early or miss out.

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  35. Hear hear!

    There are no awards for the ideal birth….but a lot of women seem to forget this! I hate the termat the moment of “birth rape” used to label c sections by the freehomesilentcontrolwacko mothers it find it incredibly offensive to the victims of rape to have a controlled life saving medical procedure compared the the forceful violation that is rape! And I’m with you……the more doctors the merrier so one and all come on down and view my vagina! The women of free birth and home birth are only concerned about THEM! They ha e no concern about the baby….it’s not as if they will hit 18 and say ” hey mum thanks for forgoing life saving medical help whilst giving birth to me it
    Radically changed my birthing experience for the better and I’m now well equipped to handle life” ……yep not heard that at any 18th in recent times! There are great birthing centers and separate section in hospitals that will allow for a positive home like experience…take them up on it you selfish birthzillas

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  36. Rose

    This is so ridiculous and so are half of the comments.
    “All I care about is a healthy baby.” If all you cared about was a healthy baby, you would actually take the time to knows the risks associated with certain interventions! And you would also take the time to know about the benefits of certain practices as well. Do you think we mothers really care delayed cord cutting for OURSELVES? How the heck does that benefit the mother? It doesn’t, it benefits the child and that is why we ask for it. Do you really think that FORGOING pain medication is for the mother?! You are the ones going on and on about the blissful bloody epidural. We refuse it because we know about the risks and we will take the pain so our children will benefit. Everything that we possibly ask for on a birth plan is for our child. Please name one thing that actually benefits the mother? Oh wait, I’ve got one. Not getting a routine episiotomy. Well, I don’t know about you, but I enjoy and my husband enjoys, my nice, tidy lady bits. I’d rather not have some huge scar because doc just likes to use his scalpel. It’s sad that so many women don’t know how truly rare it is to need an episiotomy. Because you walked in and told your doc to do whatever he wants, know you have to walk around with a disfigured vagina for the rest of your life. Smart move. Me, on the other hand, I had a waterbirth and pushed s.l.o.w.l.y. so that I wouldn’t tear. Yes! My vagina is important to me. But everything else I wanted, was all for the benefit of my baby and often at my own expense.

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    • Kris2040

      Can you tell the difference between a delayed cord clamping kid with no drugs and one who was born by Caesar with Mum getting a general anaesthetic a week after? I don’t think I could, but I could sure as shit tell between the mothers, because the delayed cord clamping no pain relief one would be the one expecting a medal.
      My vagina’s intact too, as I had a Caesar under a general. So’s my daughter.

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      • Kate E

        Do you know about the differences in hematocrit, iron stores, risks of iron deficiency with immediate clamping and the links between iron-deficiency and developmental delay?

        Good chance a woman preferencing physiological cord closure and placental birth does.

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        • Kris2040

          Nup. I didn’t have the option because my placenta was all in pieces. Does it stop you from donating the placenta?

          Explain it all. Give us links to a reputable source about it. Hint. Kelly from Bellybelly’s facebook page doesn’t count.

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          • Kris2040

            And you know what? I’ll happily take a possibly iron deficient baby (which can be rectified easily) born by emergency Caesar over my suddenly breech in distress swimming around in pooey waters with a placenta in pieces baby staying in there so I can feel awesome for pushing her out.

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            • kate e

              Kris, I didn’t provide my response to be critical of you or anyone else. Improved blood volume and avoidance of hypovolemia can be achieved by cord milking in c sections and delayed clamping in normal birth. Women often learn these options during the process of birth planning. An Obstetric emergency involving the placenta is not an instance where delayed clamping is safe or practiced. I don’t source my info from bellybelly, but I’ve seen their articles on cord clamping and I’m familiar with the literature referenced in those articles. I’m on my ph so can’t link directly to source but the RCOG and RCOM papers on private cord blood banking and placental transfusion discuss cord clamping, iron deficiency and developmental delay.

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            • MamaMel

              Wow. I really don’t think Kate was being critical of you – personally – at all. Defensive much?

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            • Kris2040

              Not defensive at all. I’m proud that I had the commonsense to go with the Caesar.
              I just don’t see why you feel the need to micromanage such a small part of the “experience” for something like that.

              Where are the hordes of people with developmental delays from not having their cord pumped or whatever?

              Can you still donate the cord blood? Or is it all about you and your baby?

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      • Poppy

        My vagina is great and I had an episiotomy with my first birth. I did pelvic floor exercises both before and after birth. Practice and research do not always meld perfectly because birthing women and the people who care for them are human.

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    • Hear hear

      Wow condemnation tied it a bow with the writing….don’t judge me…while I’ll judge you…..lplease tell me what third world hospital you are talking about when stating episiotomy is routine ???? Wow s.l.o.w.l.y what does your medal for that look like? Mia did NOT STATE once that she did not take into account any procedure in regards to her birth her point was about safety of her baby and taking advantage of modern medical treatment….there is no evidence that’s state an epidural will be of any harm to a baby….there is no long lasting effects of pain medication use during the birth process THAT’S WHY THEY ARE USED! But hey with all your trophies you best get back to the dusting

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      • Faybian

        In Australia (at least), episiotomy is no longer routine. It used to be though. I had one in the 80s with my first when it WAS routine for primips (first timers). It was thought that a clean, straight cut was better than a jagged tear. In fact episiotomies were discovered to be more likely to lead to 3rd degree tears than tears themselves. As a result, they’re no longer routine.

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    • Virginia Lake

      I disagree, Rose.

      Because what you’re saying is that somehow *you* know more about obstetrics and paediatrics than the professionals who are in the room with you at that time.

      As someone who comes from a family of obstetricians and nurses I find your “doctors who just like to use their scalpels” remark, deeply offensive.

      Googling a few articles and reading a few books doesn’t equate to doing 10 years of medical training including a six hour written exam, a three hour verbal exam and countless reviews and appraisals and skill tests.

      You know what? If your doctor DOESN’T do something — there’s highly likely a good reason for it. One that you may not be aware of. They have to rack up thousands of births to do the job — which gives them the ability to see around corners that you don’t even know exist.

      When did *we* all become the experts?

      To assume that the attending doctors and midwifes want something other than the safest delivery possible is ridiculous.

      In a world of law suits, in a job where there is always the potential for things to go wrong … your comment is flippant and disrespectful to the men and women doing this job.

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      • Hear hear

        Well said Viriginia

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      • Anon

        Totally agree. It is impossible for you to ever know as much as your doctor will know about the risks of giving birth.

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      • amd

        Totally agree. My OB has been delivering babies for longer than I have been alive. Beautiful man, trusted him implicitly!!

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    • Seahorse

      THANKYOU! Agree agree agree.

      Promote knowledge MM. Not ignorance.

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    • Kathy W

      Hey ‘super vag’ Rose – I note all your spiteful replies have been deleted.

      Off you go now and do those kegel exercises….

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      • Buster

        “super vag” GOLD!!!

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    • Anonymous

      @rose.. If you worried about your vagina should have opted the c section

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      • MamaMel

        These comments about ‘intact’ vaginas after Caesareans etc are offensive and below the belt (pardon the pun). Can’t we all just get along?

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  37. Dee

    Wow, could the term “birthzilla” be any more offensive?! You are I’ll-informed Mia. The vast majority of women who devise birth plans are doing so not because they are more focused on the birth than on the baby, but BECAUSE they are more focused on their baby! The “labradoodle” look you gave this woman simply proves your ignorance, not hers. Timing of cord clamping, method of placental delivery, can & does impact upon the health & well-being of mother & baby.
    You assume wrongly that doctors with qualifications & letters after their name only ever act with their top priority being your baby’s health. Sadly, not true. Fear of litigation, impatience, money, power….all factor in heavily for many doctors. Recently I witnessed a senior doctor insert a scalp clip on to a baby soon to be birthed (a small wired electrode screwed into the scalp of the fetus) simply in order to show a less experienced doctor how to do it. If I have to be a birthzilla to protect my baby from being needlessly stabbed in its head then I’ll wear the title with pride.
    Mia I could write a book in response to your flippant, ignorant & ill-informed article. I am a senior clinical midwife specialist. I wouldn’t dream of writing about magazine editing or journalism. Perhaps we should stick to what we know.
    Mia, I implore you to watch the recently released doco “The Face of Birth”. I feel it would give you quite an education & perhaps help to show you that birth plans are NOT about putting the birth experience above the actual baby. Quite the opposite.

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    • essessesse

      Well, be fair, I think I’d look at someone a bit oddly if they were talking to me about their placenta when I was trying to eat a sausage. It’s more time and place.

      Other than that I’m with you.

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  38. katehunter

    I was rapt when my doctor told me my bum-first breech boy would have to come out the sunroof. I felt like my baby had been given a get-out-of jail free card.

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    • jess88

      Sunroof! Thats the most adorable way of describing a C-section that I’ve ever heard! I’ll be sure to remember that one.

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      • Dee of Adelaide

        We prefer to say that ours came out the window not the door lol

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  39. Charlene

    Are you serious Mia Freedman? Mother’s who have given birth, judging other mothers who have given birth, just, well, why? because you feel like it? Because you want to feel better than them? Because secretly, you wish you had known that there are ways to help birth to become an experience that is optimal for MUM AND BABY?

    Why the heck shouldn’t mother’s be proud of thier birth experiences? It is undoubtably the proudest moment for most mothers…labour, birth and baby in it’s entirety.

    Not to mention the fact that many many women report suffering post partum depression and fear of having another child, after un-necessarily traumatic, intervention heavy, un-informed labours and births. Their babies spending time in ICU as a result, and being fed formula without consent from the mother.

    This is the type of judgemental literature that be-littles women and CAUSES us to feel inadequate…and it’s coming from another woman, Shame on you

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    • Anonymous

      Disagree…. Its pathetic women who rant away put themselves on a pedastal about how their birth went . Seriously who is interested in what happends to a womans placenta, certainly not a stranger . Who bloody cares.. Birthzilla… I love that name….!

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      • Anonymous

        I don’t think the women who suffer from PPD care about their placentas either. Usually it’s their bodies. Like….I didn’t want to be cut (vaginally or abdominally) and ‘they didn’t listen to me’, ‘I wasn’t prepared for xyz,’, etc.

        Oh, and the hormones post birth are completely different for mamas who birth with trauma and without.

        Again, please inform yourself.

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  40. ej

    As a midwife, I love women who have birth plans, as it means they have done some thinking and have taken some responsibility for the way labour and birth pans out. They are willing to have a crack at normal physiological childbirth, which is a very safe option. Women with birth plans are not handing their power over or expecting midwives or doctors to ‘deliver’ their babies. They know that it is their job to give birth. They often do well when things don’t go to plan, because they’re educated, informed and responsible. And that’s a great spot to start one’s parenting journey.

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  41. alliekat

    Well, there is no point in directing this comment to Mia as clearly her mind is so made up (closed) as to refuse to even take the slightest interest in ‘why’ some women do take interest in being informed and prepared for their births. To me, birth ‘plans’ are not so much about plans but ‘preferences’ – the opportunity before a birth to actively think through (with your partner) some of the various scenarios that might unfold, and what you actually prefer in those cases – all pending the health and wellbeing of the baby of course!!! Is this crazy? birthzilla? birth-focused?

    OR.

    Is it smart? educated? A woman using her brain and her resources to hopefuly reduce some of the potential stress and panic when things change – it’s scary when options come up you have not even thought about it – and it’s annoying when you want to focus on labouring/enjoying your precious new bub to have the midwives asking you about your placenta (if its in your birth preferences list, they already know to just chuck it or whatever!), or more importantly they already know you want immediate skin to skin bonding time after birth rather than them whisking your new love away for weighing and so on that could be done later.
    You can never plan for or predict the million variations of birth, the main crux of all of it of course being to have a healthy baby and mama. But you can be educated and this can help any woman going into this massive experience. Not to be inflexible (no c-sectons no matter what… for example) but to be informed.
    Sad isnt it that Mia is rallying so enthusiastically against women being informed and prepared for their own births – a major experience for any woman. If she wants to just front up to the hospital and just have ‘whatever’ happen, then fine… but how truly sad that she chooses to nationally ridicule and discourage women who want to be a little more informed and part of their own birth. A real shame… why not to each their own, why not err on the side of compassion and understanding?

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    • Renee

      I could not agree with you more. Such a disappointing article to read. Makes me wonder why I read anything here at all anymore. Women need to support other women, not ridicule, judge or belittle them, particularly when it relates to something so precious as welcoming your children into the world. Where is the support for women taking control of their own minds and bodies? Where is the applauding of informed choice and education? So so disappointing.

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      • Dee

        I agree Renee. I used to love reading articles here; such a great “community” where readers all so often provide support of one another and/or advice about difficult situations. But more and more there is this underlying thread of ridicule. Things like labeling a woman a “birthzilla” is a case in point. I might not be able to stop it, but I can stop reading and being a passive part of it. I’m disappointed Mia :(

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  42. Alinta

    I think you would probably call me a birthzilla then because apparently homebirthers fall under your heading for those crazies obsessed with having their birth their way. See like how you love hospitals and those white gowns, I despise them and they make me feel physically sick given that I spent a huge part of my childhood in one with a close family member dying. I had one baby in a hospital and like many ended up with a lovely tear and that beautiful ‘crime scene’ room that another commenter posted about. I know that’s normal for a birth, however by my own personal choice, which as I’m aware we are allowed, I had my next two babies at home. I won’t tell you about the experience because you may put it as bragging, but it’s certainly never meant in that way, it was just a lovely calm normal birth in the comfort of my own home, like many women have done for years. And shock horror my two other children were there for the birth of their sister. To another poster who mentioned therapy, Perhaps therapy may be needed if they had watched a hospital birth but it is a vast difference at home in water, and nothing gruesome and they think nothing different of the whole experience their sister waa just born. You know I don’t care how anyone births, you do it by what’s best for the baby, what’s best for you and it’s an individual choice based on your own situation. I chose mine because that it what I thought was best for the baby and best for my family. In birth you must always have an open mind, my last was breech till 37 weeks and a caesar was looking likely, yes I would have been a bit disappointed at first but if that was what was required then ok. Mia I like your posts, but I don’t like your labelling. Your not being much better than the natzi birthzillas by putting people into a category with a presumption just because of the way they ‘birthed’. Keeping an open mind in all situations without judgement is a nice way to be.

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  43. Kelli Haynes

    Why do some women worry about having an abortion or not: it’s about them and not the baby???? I just don’t get the double standards. Surely if you believe in the woman’s choice in being pregnant or not you must also support the mother’s choice to have the birth she wants.

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    • Anonymous

      I’m with you Mia. Just get the babe out and focus on that. I hear so many crazy stories that women who have cesears feel less womanly… it just doesn’t matter… all that matters is healthy mum and bub.

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      • Diana

        Hahaha. I really enjoyed this article. I understand and sympathize that birth is a big deal for most women, myself included. However, i feel this is because it results in a new life…not because the birth was done under water or because it was self supervised. I am completely bewildered by women who would put their own level of comfort above the safety of their baby. Birth is the first of many times mothers must think of their children before themselves, especially when safety is at stake. Believing that birth can be perfect and comfortable is delusional. It is a mystery to me why some women try to achieve that at their baby’s expense.

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    • Anonymous

      Why do we need to put expectations on ourselves? I’d never heard of birth plans before pregnancy… I always just thought I’d go with whatever happens, natural fine, casear if necessary fine, forceps fine… Etc.. Then I started reading all the books. I felt awkward asking my OB if I needed a plan because I had read about it. He just smirked. Nothing can plan you for childbirth… don’t add extra pressure on yourself to plan and set expectations that may not be reached. Having a baby is a miracle. I hated childbirth but would do it a thousand times over to have that amazing feeling of love and happiness.

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  44. katrinaevans

    Loved this article – it reminds of when I became pregnant and every woman I came across felt compelled to tell me all about the worst/scariest parts of their pregnancy.

    Have enjoyed the comments, too and even included one of my own…..then realized that almost all of them (including mine) included some reference/description of their birth experience. Lol. But did enjoy them :)

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  45. Rachele

    I was quite disappointed in this article. Women who make certain choices around how their babies are born don’t do it because they care more about the birth than the baby; they are choosing what they feel is safest for their babies. You may feel safest surrounded by professionals with years for schooling in the medical model, other women feel safest when the physiological process is allowed to unfold without intervention unless it is required. There is certainly plenty of research to back up the latter point of view. As far as birth of the placenta goes, I think women are wise to have strong feelings over how this is managed. Post partum haemorrhage is a leading cause of maternal mortality around the world, so putting thought into how this part of the birth is handled isn’t silly or self-indulgent. Immediate clamping and cutting of the cord is associated with anemia in the baby and can interfere in the physiological transition the baby must make from intrauterine life to life “on the outside”. I am a midwife and have worked attending births in public hospital, private hospital and in women’s homes. I can assure you that how the birth of the placenta is handled absolutely affects the safety of the birth; I don’t think that having an opinion about how this is managed means a woman cares more about the birth than the baby. I think it is quite the opposite. All women want the safest birth for their baby; different women have different ideas around the best way to achieve this.

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    • MamaMel

      Well said, Rachele

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      • Anon

        I’m a little sick of comparisons being made between countries like Australia, the US and UK and places like rural India and PNG (for example). It is a great blessing that we have choice, safe and accessible health care. These are not reasons to then ignore scientific evidence as to what factors improve birth outcomes. The reason we come across women passionate about birth is because the ideas once hidden in medical journals have become accessible. The World Health Organisation has a lot to say about birth and that includes a target of a caesarean rate no higher than 10%. There are many reasons Australia’s is above 30% and these reasons are not as simplistic as some birth advocates suggest.
        A mother and child are a dyiad. Their health is intimately linked and neither can be prioritised over the other. Do not be too hasty in suggesting a woman’s birth experience has no impact on the baby’s health. A woman who has a caesarean is more likely to have difficulty feeding, a woman who experiences a traumatic birth has an increased chance of experiencing mental illness post birth.

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      • Emelize

        The thing is, what a woman THINKS will be safest for her baby might not be when push comes to shove (so to speak!) I had a textbook pregnancy and early labour but my daughter was a brow presentation – had we not had access to an operating theatre we’d have both died. I had wanted a water birth… but wasn’t averse to a c section, epidural, whatever was going to be safest for us both. Being aware of the possibilities and not feeling guilty for whatever keeps you both safe – THAT’S what’s important.

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        • MelP

          Yes, I think that’s what gets me about many people on this site commenting about home/free/whatever births. It’s all well and good wanting to have a nice, relaxed birth (in fact, it sounds like a lovely idea), but that’s only going to work if things are going well. If the shit hits the fan (and there’s often no way to predict if it will), then you need to be prepared to change your plan and seek medical help, and if you’re at home, you’re that much further away from the help you might need.

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      • Wendy

        Goodbye Mamamia. It’s the same posts being done over and over again. I agree that I don’t understand why people don’t want births in hospital etc but I’m not interested in reading the same old opinions trotted out again and again. Usually in a judgemental way. I’m sick of anytime anyone comments on the same posts being repeated others telling them not to click if they are not interested. I think the point is people want new content on the topics that interest them. I don’t want to click on beauty or celebrity drivel I want to read about parenting and relationships but not the same things over and over. And I fInd the comments of Mia and other staff to people who disagree generally snarky. I really enjoyed Mamamia when I found it a few months ago but now it just feels like ground hog day. Wanted to give some reader feedback as to why I won’t be visiting the site again.

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        • Zara

          I agree, Wendy! I know creating new topics of interest that are published on a daily basis is a hell of a lot harder than publishing them through a monthly magazine, but some of these articles are just talked to death :(

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        • HB Midwife

          There are quite strict rules around birthing at home. For instance – you need to be within close proximity to a hospital, your car must be road worthy with a full tank of fuel. During labour there are signs things aren’t going to plan and a woman can be transferred to hospital. A successful home birth is not always one that takes place at home. A woman I cared for needed to be transferred because labour was not progressing. I stayed with her, I knew the staff at the hospital and cared for her and her baby after birth.

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    • Dee

      Well said Rachele. I too am a midwife who has worked in public, private, birth centre etc. I think it was ignorant of Mia to call this woman a “birthzilla” for wanting to have some say in the management of a crucial part of the labour which has enormous potential to impact upon the health of both herself and her baby. I hope she reads your response :)

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      • Rachel

        It’s 11pm and I’m out of bed searching for a number to call about my birth experience almost 7 months ago. I’m in tears again and suffering postnatal depression due to my experience. Am I a Birthzilla Mia? Am I Birthzilla for wanting the best for my baby’s birth? As a former nursing student I knew to be flexible but I never counted on 26 hours of active labour, insensitive obstetricians, a forceps delivery with no real explanation as to why i needed one, a baby that needed medical assistance, the trauma to my baby as she experienced a forceps delivery, a 3b tear and episiotomy, theatre staff discussing how drunk they got at their Christmas party while stitching me up, not seeing my daughter for more than a second at a distance until 9 hours later, having no choice with the management of the cord or placenta, not seeing the cord or placenta, having the nursing staff give my baby her first wash and not asking me if that’s what I wanted. I felt and still do feel like I was never part of the birth. A baby appeared on 3 December last year and I feel a great sense of grief that I never felt her being born and was not part of the process. Everyday I cry and feel empty about my baby’s birth. Neither my baby or I had the birth we deserved. Your comments Mia do nothing to support mothers.

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    • eternally

      I don’t think Mia was arguing that delivery of the placenta is not important, just that she was happy to be guided by professionals on the issue.

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    • Tina

      I think some of you are missing the point. Mia is not saying it is wrong to have preferences and to “try” to have the birth you want – but when the health and well being of yourself and/or your child starts to come second to getting the birth of your choice, that is when people are being ‘birthzillas’. I personally know a mum of 2, soon to be a mum of 3, who has tried to have two home births and has needed an emergency caesarian both times, and now is trying for her third home birth… I mean child. If you are at high risk of labour complications should you really be opting for a home birth?? Does being in the comfort of your own home ease the stress enough to counter whatever is the cause of the high risk? It didn’t help to be at home the first two times, so I’m thinking that maybe the hospital is the best place for the third?? Yes, it is this lady’s choice, but to me this is a prime example of the type of birth being placed before the safety of the baby.

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  46. mandywill

    Money spinner! I think I might go into trophy production! Big Gold ones for home birth/free birth, Silver for completely vaginal/no drugs/no tearing in birth centre and bronze for vaginal/gas.

    But all the other sad mothers don’t need to be left empty handed. There will be green sashes with ‘Better luck next time *sad face*’ for them!

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    • Anonymous

      bahahahahaha

      …can I suggest a Highly Commended for attempted vaginal followed by emergency caesarean?

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      • sharoncello

        whoops…this was me commenting as Anonymous – different computer & forgot I wasn’t automatically logged in :D

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    • Hear hear

      Lol thanks for the great laugh…..best of luck for your new venture…see you in forbes 100!

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    • 3caesars

      Surely the winner is c-section, no drugs? ;P

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  47. Bushki

    I love this post so very much. Thank you Mia. I could not agree more. Happy healthy baby = Happy healthy Mummy. End of story. Who cares how it comes out. Props to you Mia, Again well done!

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    • Guest

      Well obviously Mia cares how it comes out. And if it doesn’t come out in her preferred fashion surrounded by every medico and, particularly, obstetrician in cooee than it is just plain wrong, and further, there’s is something dreadfully wrong with the woman giving birth, according to Mia.

      Hey Mia, here’s a thought for you: 50% of all doctors graduated in the bottom half of their class. And how do you know that that junior assisting didn’t graduate last in his class?

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      • Anon

        The point is that they *did* graduate though…having met the standards expected of them. If we extend this logic, how do I know that my child’s teacher didn’t graduate in the bottom half of their class? Or that the pilot who flies when I travel didn’t graduate the bottom of their class? Or that the ambulance officer assisting in an emergency didn’t graduate in the bottom of their class? Or that an architect designing my house didn’t graduate in the bottom of their class?

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      • Bec

        I appreciate your point but there’s no way to be in the discussion and take the viewpoint that Mia has if you say hers is just another option and she therefore is the same as everyone else but just self-righteous.
        The point is that there’s a difference between the types of experiences she’s talking about that all focus on the birth, and the idea of a medically assisted birth where you are prepared in the event of something going wrong for mother or baby. If you start labour at home and something goes wrong,it is so much worse when you have to try and move the mother to the hospital via ambulance. It’s in a different category to the others, it’s what I’d be praying and wishing for with my whole being if I was in a part of the world where there is no choice but to try and do it alone – a helping hand from someone who knows what they’re doing,and can reassure me based on their skills that I might be ok would make all the difference in the world.
        I think its pretty rude to just bash the medical profession to try and prove a point – you forget/are ignorant of the fact that it is hard to get into med school in the first place, and even once graduated there are another approx. 10 yrs of exams/difficult entry into training programs/many failed applicants who are never accepted before someone is even close to being an obstetrician…. But they’ll save someone’s life even if people doubt their training…

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      • Guest

        “happy healthy baby = happy healthy mother” ……. Not in my case, a difficult pregnancy, an indifferent midwife, an emergency c-section (not due to an emergency, but because the surgens were due to go home and the midwife didn’t want ” to have call them back in later”) lead to a happy healthy baby, but a mother with serious PND, and comments like “surely having a healthy baby is the main thing” are not only not helpful but also insulting and just made the situation worse. Of course the fact that my baby was healthy was the main thing, but my mental health was also important, if i was sick how could i look after my child once home. I suffered (whilst getting help) for 3 years, so did my husband and child. Was it a result of the c-section and the indifferent care i received, maybe not completley, but they certainly didn’t help. To think that having a healthy baby at the end of it all is the ONLY thing that matters is simplistic and just makes it harder on those who had a healthy baby and were still suffered depression.

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    • Kate E

      It is so easy to blame women. The birth experience, the baby’s experience and safety are inextricably linked. Women in the first world can have the unfortunate experience of being injured or their baby injured by aggressive, pre-emptive interventions, whereas women in developing countries are at risk of tragic adverse outcomes for lack of appropriate maternity care, poorly trained/lack of attendents, and the importation of inappropriate techniques from developed countries.
      Maternal hemorrhage is historically and currently the largest cause of maternal death worldwide. For low-risk women in developed countries, post partum hemorrhage can be CAUSED by routine obstetric practices – synthetic oxytocin for augmenting/inducing labour, premature cord clamping and traction to deliver the placenta. I am happy to provide links to the evidence showing this (more recent evidence than the last Cochrane review, too). Until such time as these practices improve, women are the ones that need to be proactive in protecting their health and their babies.
      A birth plan that says “do not clamp the cord, do not routinely administer a uterotonic and I plan to try for a physiological third stage” is not just a ‘trademark’ of a ‘birthzilla’. She may be the only one protecting her baby’s rights to a physiological and safe blood volume, normal red cell level, normal transfusion of stem cells and a safe transition to extra-uterine life.
      For some women, the sense of powerlessness, fear of death or injury for them and their baby, abuse of their bodily autonomy and patients rights, is an experience that can lead to severe post partum depression, post traumatic stress disorder and maternal suicide. Articles like this do nothing to address WHY women become invested in the birth experience and why they may be acutely interested in aspects of childbirth, particularly the third stage of labour. For women who prefer to trust providers and are happy with all the birth outcomes, I am very happy for them. I also recognise the system is not perfect and that mothers have their baby’s best interest at heart. Sometimes women just like to feel superior, if sneering at birth plans helps you accomplish this, good luck to you.

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      • Anon

        Is there any evidence linking ‘traumatic’ births for babies with poorer long term outcomes, in terms of health, education, ability to grow up and become a productive member of society? I ask this because you say that the birth experience, the baby’s experience and safety are inextricably linked – I’m not sure what you mean by ‘the baby’s experience’.

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        • Kate E

          A birth that is traumatic for mother and baby can definitely cause poor long term outcomes – you are asking me for evidence but I’m not sure if links will be allowed here?(plus it is a huge, diverse subject.) Just to name a few:
          A traumatic birth can include fetal hypoxia, and clinical responses can include immediately clamping the cord to relocate the baby for resuscitation. An unfortunate and unintended consequence of this is the baby can be rendered hypovolemic (dangerously low blood volume)- this can result in severe adverse outcomes including cerebral palsy, global developmental delay and death.
          Studies are showing the need for resuscitation at birth can be linked to lower IQ, congitive deficits and learning disabilities – see ” Resuscitation at birth and cognition at 8 years of age: a cohort study” by Odd et al for example of such study.
          Synthetic oxytocin can be the cause of tetanic contractions, placental abruption, fetal hypoxia and fetal demise. Risks are outlined on the drug information. Etc Etc Etc

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          • Anon

            I’m sorry, I didn’t really express myself clearly. What I meant was traumatic births where the trauma was as a result of the actions taken by medical staff. So, traumatic births can happen at home and in the hospital. I suppose I mean where the trauma was caused by the medical staff, rather than it being a traumatic birth in itself.

            You gave an example of hypoxia which is a good one. I ask this question without personal medical knowledge or experience but with a decade long background in medical education and training in several countries across four continents. That is, I’ve got medical knowledge which is probably a little higher than the average person but certainly much less than medically- and clinically-qualified professionals…hence, it being a genuine question, rather than me trying to make a point! ;-)

            Where a traumatic birth has resulted in foetal hypoxia and the clinical response is to immediately clamp the cord, are there alternative clinical responses with a equal efficacy rate which do not have the potential consequences that you outline above?

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            • Kate E

              Iatrogenic birth injuries
              You may be interested to follow up:
              * “fetal to neonatal transition” articles published by Judith Mercer et al.
              * Medico-legal reviews by Iffy et al
              *The BASICS trolley designed and implemented in the UK, designed by Dr David Hutchon and his team to negate the need to amputate a volume-deplete newborn from the placenta for resuscitation.
              *Dr Nicholas Fogelsons grand rounds ‘delayed cord clamping should be standard practice’

              Fogelsons’ presentation and Mercer’s articles on umbilical cord clamping and nuchal cord management contain extensive literature reviews.

              There are no clinical trials measuring differences in resuscitating infants while the umbilical cord is intact/not clamped because this practice was introduced a long time ago without any evidence. It has since become routine. There is a study done comparing birth brain injuries in Michigan, comparing homebirth with cords intact versus hospital birth with immediate cord clamping. There were large differences in admission to NICU and brain injuries, however this study was based on birth records (not an ideal source of information for this type of study).
              Watch this space, more trials are underway, clinical practice is changing and I hope to contribute to the knowledge in this field within a few years :)

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        • Tracey Groombridge

          yes look at any of the research around PND and Post traumatic births and you will see the impacts on mum and baby are significant, which therefore CAN impact long term depending on a number of other factors, recovery, stress at home, partner support etc etc. Get informed we judge less then.

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      • MamaMel

        Well said, Kate :)

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  48. gretta

    Well said Mia!

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  49. Another Mia

    Agreed Mia … although for what it’s worth I believe this ‘new’ culture of seeking control in any way possible is a result of the increasing level of most-times-necessary and many-times-unnecessary medical intervention … the term “cascade of medical intervention” is often used by the same women sprouting intricate birth plans.

    So, whilst I wholeheartedly agree that Birthzillas exist and need to focus their heartfelt determination on their child and not the process of it’s entry into the world … perhaps we need to look at *why* this trend is ever-growing?

    Just a thought anyhow.

    Take care,
    Mia x

    PS Oh and if I am honest I will admit that I did get my hackles up at the comment from the lady on the radio – one of my births (I have 3 utterly beautiful girls) was in hospital (but drug free blah blah blah) and it truly was the most amazing, wonderful – yes, dare I say it “incredible” experiences of my life!! So, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah! ;-p Does it mean I love that child more than the other two, hell no! Get real … it doesn’t matter in the slightest *how* they arrive – just that they do so in the safest way possible. Anything above that is a bonus.

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  50. sharons

    Mia, I adore your opinions on everything. You have such a common sense view to every topic you write about.

    Thank you for this article.

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    • Sue

      Excuse me while I vomit.

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      • sharons

        If you don’t appreciate Mia’s views, why do you even visit her website. I come here because i agree with Mia’s outlook on close to everything. A constructive comment would be appreciated.

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