UPDATE: The Queensland Health Minister has released a statement regarding this issue. The full text can be found here.
UPDATE: News Editor Rick Morton just spoke to Festival Executive Director Bill Hauritz about the decision to bring Meryl Dorey into speak.
Q: Does the Festival feel it appropriate to give a platform to a woman who has been officially discredited as any type of vaccination expert?
Bill: Look, I’m not going to get into that. There are a lot of discredited artists and talkers and singers and songwriters at the Festival and we’re about giving a voice to a diverse range … something like 400 artists there.
Q: But surely if a singer/songwriter is discredited, that doesn’t pose a public health risk does it?
Bill: Who says it is dangerous? There are a lot of people out there who believe this whole vaccination thing is not an open and shut case. Is anybody willing to say that all vaccinations are 100% safe?
Q: I don’t think even doctors say that, Bill. Is Meryl billed as an expert for her talk?
Bill: I suppose she would regard herself as an expert, yes. Look, when this issue hit the floor yesterday I typed into Google ‘doctors against vaccinations’ and there are page and pages and pages of results of information. I wonder about the tactics of the science lobby.
Q: Why do you call it a lobby? That seems fairly indicative of your personal views don’t you think?
Bill: I didn’t mean to call it a lobby. I just get wary when people are trying to sell stuff on the Internet.
Q: I don’t think scientists necessarily want to sell anything?
Bill: Look, it doesn’t make a difference. We’ve already entered into contracts with Meryl Dorey and we cannot break those contracts now. We’re 10 days away from opening the gates to the festival. The damage is already done.
Q: Is Meryl Dorey being paid for her appearance?
Bill: I honestly haven’t seen the contracts. I’d say she isn’t.
Q: Can you understand the backlash you have received? You know it isn’t about diverse views. It’s about spruiking information that has been officially debunked. Do you understand the issue many have with Dorey is that she is not a statistician, a researcher, a scientist and has no level of expertise as found by the Health Care Complaints Commission which ordered her to be upfront about her anti-vaccination stance?
Bill: Everyone has a right to their opinion.
Q: But surely not to their own facts? Are you worried people will boycott the festival now?
Bill: Let them, they have every right to.
The Woodford Folk Festival sounds like a quaint, fringe music festival. It’s not. With more than 130,000 people attending the 2010/2011 event in Queensland it is one of the largest cultural events of its kind in Australia. Which makes it all the more troubling known anti-vaccine campaigner Meryl Dorey has been invited – again – to speak there. Mamamia finds it troubling because of this post we ran debunking the most common vaccination myths, the ones that Dorey and her misleadingly titled Australian Vaccination Network continue to willfully propagate. It’s one of the most popular posts we have ever run on the site. So while Dorey has been given a platform to speak, despite having been discredited by major health agencies, it is a platform paid for by major sponsors. Including the local council and Queensland Government. So, why? Peter Bowditch writes…..
In 2010, Meryl Dorey, once (and maybe still) President of the Australian Vaccination Network, appeared as a speaker at the Woodford Folk Festival in Queensland. I wondered at the time why a festival devoted to community spirit and enjoyment should provide a platform for someone to preach a philosophy that can only cause harm to children, and I wrote to the organisers with my concern.
I didn’t receive an answer, but Ms Dorey wasn’t pleased that I had written and in her usual ‘just missing the truth’ style she claimed that I had asked them not to let her speak. I had done nothing of the sort, just said that I didn’t think that what she would inevitably say was the sort of thing I would expect to hear at a folk festival. She can say what she likes where she lies as long as people are aware of her agenda.
She didn’t appear at the 2011 festival, but she is booked in to give two talks at the 2012 event in January. I suppose this means the festival organisers aren’t concerned about her message, and the presence of various other practitioners of weird science and ideas on the same stage just confirms this impression. I have no idea why anyone would associate folk music with the sort of things one would expect to see at a Mind Body Spirit Festival or even why there would be an overlap of audiences, but maybe things have changed since my Kings Cross troubadour days. Or, as someone once said, the answers are blowing in the wind.
What makes this Woodford Festival a little different is the range of event sponsors whom you would think would run away very quickly from any association with anyone opposing vaccination. And make no mistake, for all Ms Dorey’s claims that she is not opposed to vaccination and just wants it to be safe she has never once in the more than a decade I’ve been dealing with her ever allowed that any vaccine is either safe or beneficial. She is not opposed to vaccines provided that they are never given to any person of any age to protect against any disease.
She has described measles (the disease which has killed more children than any other in the history of the world) as “benign;” she suggested the slogan “Shaken Maybe Syndrome” as a way of implying that Shaken Baby Syndrome does not exist but is always damage caused by vaccines; she provided strong support to a man imprisoned in the US for the murder of a ten-week-old boy, her support being based on the idea that the dreadful injuries to the child had to be the effects of a vaccine, not the actions of a violent man; she is on record as an AIDS denier; she said on television that “whooping cough didn’t kill us thirty years ago and it’s not kill anybody today”. If she isn’t implacably opposed to vaccinations then she hides any other position well.
In 2009 the NSW Health Care Complaints Commission took the unprecedented step of issuing a public warning about Ms Dorey and the AVN. This followed her refusal to agree to a request to display a notice on the AVN’s web site saying that the organisation did not give medical advice, that it was opposed to vaccination, and that parents should get advice about vaccination from a competent medical practitioner. Ms Dorey is currently taking the HCCC to court over the matter. She needs to do this because the NSW Office of Liquor Gaming and Racing has withdrawn the AVN’s charity status and banned them from recruiting new members or accepting donations. The OLG&R took the HCCC’s public warning into account when making its rulings.
But back to the sponsors of the Woodford Folk Festival. One significant sponsor is the local Moreton Bay Regional Council. The Council has quite clear policies supporting vaccination and other public health initiatives, and Ms Dorey’s message is diametrically opposed to these. In fact, if too many locals listen to her and believe what she says then the Council’s public health activities could be severely undermined.
Another sponsor is the local ABC radio station. I know for a fact that the ABC has been told about Ms Dorey and her activities, so it is doubly distressing to see public money contributing to giving her a platform to spread harmful misinformation. The Queensland Government is also a sponsor, and again public money is being spent to encourage ideas which are in direct contradiction to the vaccination programs and policies of a government.
I don’t want Ms Dorey silenced (to want that would be to follow the “principles” that she applies to any public forum that she controls, where the slightest dissent results in banning). I just want people to know that she is not a reliable authority on matters of public health and vaccination. She can say what she likes as long as others can point to her and say “Dangerous, uninformed, unscientific nonsense”.
If you doubt the terrible consequences of a lack of vaccination, take the time watch Mia’s heartbreaking interview with Toni and Dave McCaffrey whose daughter Dana died as a result of whooping cough. She lived in one of the least vaccinated areas in the country. The interview starts at 12:52.
If you are concerned by this turn of events, you can email the Woodford Folk Festival organisers on qff@woodfordfolkfestival.com or leave a message on their FB Wall here, email Moreton Bay Regional Council here or email the Queensland Government here.
Peter Bowditch has been around skepticism and rational thinking for many years. He writes for several skeptical and scientific publications and runs the web site at www.ratbags.com which features the weekly Millenium Project online magazine and Radio Ratbags podcast. In real life he is married with two daughters, lives in the Blue Mountains and pays the bills by being an IT consultant and TAFE teacher.










Comments
1,834 Comments so far
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The Woodford Folk Festival: Go for the music, stay for the whooping cough!
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I know I shouldn’t laugh, but…
I wonder if the merch tent at WFF sells face masks? I guess it’s a good thing they don’t really have mosh pits at folk festivals…
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Ooh, I feel a poster campaign coming on. Come on bloggers – show us your best Woodford 2011 poster???
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It seems to me that by shouting at one another about FACTS and CHOICE isn’t really going to change anyone’s mind. The more we push, the more people will dig in to defend their position and hence reinforce it to themselves.
Just sayin
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This really isn’t aimed at the anti-vax brigade. They are set like concrete. This is aimed at the Woodford Folk Festival and its sponsors. If we can’t change the minds of the AVN, then we should limit their damage wherever possible.
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…but Melissa, I’m having so much fun!
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The specific “heel digging” reaction is described as “the backfire effect”, and it’s a fairly well-studied cognitive effect. You are right – it does happen. It’s difficult to argue someone out of a position they hold, especially if they hold it for non-rational reasons.
But as Rick said, this specific issue isn’t about changing the minds of the public. It’s about convincing Woodford that they are making a major gaffe in PR, and that they’re going to lose goodwill, money and attendees if they don’t deal with this diplomatically, quickly and correctly.
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There is also many well documented effects of many leaned scientists being unable to accept something that may run contrary to their theory and it has also been shown that some scientist will do anything to stop the opposite view
It has also been shown that many scientist are sponsored and in the laps if the big pharmaceutics companies and as such are spoonfeeding you just as many lies as you accuse Meryl of
Lets hear what she has to say – giving everyone a fair go is pretty Aussie and sadly so is tall poppy cutting Jason. A case of mia culpa here a think (Pardon the pun!!! )
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Should we also adopt a ‘listen to what they have to say’ attitude towards climate change deniers? People who say smoking doesn’t cause cancer? Any other random people who suggest established scientific fact just ain’t so, just because?
Also: learned. Pharmaceutical. Mea culpa.
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She has been heard time and time again. She spreads fear and misinformation, and nothing she has to say is a good fit with the policies and values of key organisations sponsoring the Woodford Folk Festival
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I thought you were serious until you described Meryl as a “tall poppy”. Godwin of the day! You almost got me.
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Sorry, I meant “Poe of the day!”. The Godwin prize has been won several times over by Anonymous.
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You mean, “scientests” like Andrew Wakefield, who is a “scientist” that authored a debunked paper that Dorey herself used to support her dribble?
You should really check and see which side of the arguments those scientists appear on, and provide proof of respectable scientists turning “rogue” for the sake of financial benefits, before you make these kinds of silly accusations.
http://briandeer.com/mmr-lancet.htm
See how I can find evidence to support my claims?
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There will come a time – I pray to God that it will happen in my lifetime – when those who have denied vaccines and caused innocent, helpless babies to come down with Vaccine Preventable Diseases – The Anti-vaccine Crowd – will be proven to have lied and cheated these instruments of life from our children’s bloodstream. When that occurs, I – along with no doubt many of you will celebrate in this fact, and there will be no tiny tidbit of obscure research that they will be able to use to escape from the fact that Medical Researchers, Doctors and Vaccines do save lives. Unfortunately, it will be too late for the innocent babies and children who have suffered at the hands of this, but I will take satisfaction in the fact that no child would have to be denied this life saving treatment due to some outlandish belief. It will be finally known as a life-saving treatment – and we will all wonder how it is that so many people fell for this false belief.
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Well said Sam. A walk around any graveyard will reveal the effects of infectious diseases a Century ago. The problem is most of our generation has not lived through an epidemic. I assure you that any parent in a poor country today would give their own life to allow their child (the same privilege we take for granted) the opportunity to be vaccinated.
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The AV crowd will claim you’re using emotion to push the point there, penny. Just because it’s sad doesn’t mean it’s fact.
I’d suggest it probably was pretty emotional for the families who lost babies and little kids to diseases that are preventable today, and I think they’d probably be pretty emotional finding that there are nutcases pushing for a return to “simpler times”.
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Thanks for this article. I’ve emailed both the Qld Govt and the MBRC, drawing heavily on (blatantly plagiarising?) this article in my comments.
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There is so much wrong with mainstream medicine it bears repeating over and over again. In fact there is more wrong with mainstream medicine than there is right with it. Yet Peter Bowditch wants to trumpet Vaccination science AND silence all dissenting views, under the deceptive guise of protecting the public. That Australia is becoming increasingly red-neck by the day is evidenced by his feeble attempts to silence all critics of Vaccination, and in particluar Meryl Dorey. Let’s make no mistakes here, this is a personal crusade of Bowditch’s. Long live Free Speech.
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You do realise that Australia has no mandated right of free speech, don’t you, Johanna? After all, you’re some kind of expert, right?
As I said below, freedom of speech includes freedom to lie, but it also includes the freedom to criticise and expose those liars.
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What I’m not getting here is how Meryl’s rants against science and reality are repeatedly trumpeted as “free speech” whilst Peter Bowditch is lambasted by these same people for expressing a view.
Actually, I do get it. It’s hypocrisy.
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This is the commenter, “Johanna” in action, folks. Enjoy:
http://reasonablehank.com/2011/10/23/meryl-dorey-is-not-offended-by-antivax-attacks-on-her-friend/
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“Let’s make no mistakes here, this is a personal crusade of Bowditch’s”
Come on…. I highly recommend you don’t cut the end of that sentence out… isnt it supposed to go:
this is a personal crusade of Bowditch’s… to help protect the youth of Australia so they are not put at risk by “ignorant” people who do not vaccinate.
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1. Welcome to Australia – there is no mandated free speech here
2. Freedom of speech should always be tempered by the harm principle. If you’re spouting misinformation with the potential to harm children, your right to freedom of speech should be curtailed in the interests of those children.
3. “this is a personal crusade of Bowditch’s” You say that like it’s a bad thing…
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I don’t know anything about this woman, but I do think it is irresponsible of the organisers to feature and/or promote someone with a viewpoint on something which can negatively affect the greater community, especially if they aren’t being given the other view at the same time.
I believe that vaccination is the lesser of two evils. I’m sure that there can be side effects, I also know they are rare. Many of the vaccines that we currently have are for fatal, incurable or disabling conditions and diseases. We know from history how bad these diseases are, or else research into a vaccine wouldn’t have happened.
Choosing to vaccinate is in the interests of not only your child but those around them. Not choosing to vaccinate may not affect them directly, but it may affect those who can’t be (young babies, those with allergies) and it seriously undermines the community effort of eradicating these diseases so no-one needs to be vaccinated in the future.
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Yes GO WOODFORD GO Meryl Here is one for free speech, lets here both sides of the story and there is two sides. I met a guy just last month whose doectors first thought he had had a stroke – then even they recommended he look into the side effects of the flu vaccine. HE did he matched it but he still can’t walk properly yet and can’t drive so has no chance of going back to his former job.
Yes there are good things about vaccines but there are also things that can be alot better, lets here everything, lets make what we do better rather than just hides our heads ostrich like in the sands
Yeah for WOODFORD – I will sadly miss you this year but everyone there have a great time
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Yes, free speech includes freedom to lie. But it also includes freedom to criticise. Meryl is a professional misinformer on the subject of vaccines, and it damages the credibility of any organisation that gives her a platform.
It would be equally “free speech” to let holocaust deniers or white supremacists speak at Woodford, but it would be no less abhorrent
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Now Jason Brown as you are a full on stop AVN campaigner I do not see that you are any better than the anti holocaust people in denying that some things happen
Some do react badly to some vaccines, some people are maimed for life by some vaccines and some people do die because of some vaccines. Now this does happen. Not to everyone but to some.
The message that these cases give us is that there is something that we need to look at in vaccines. The effect on others may be small, it may be incremental and it may show up years later. IT may show up in the increase in seemingly unrelated figures like the increase in ADD or autism or childhood cancer or something else that we can’t see yet.
The people who are reacting now are like the canaries in a coal mine and I say heed the warning.
Try not to be fooled, the altruistic start of medicine in healing has like many many other aspects of our society been hijacked by a profit motive. The research you rely on is funded by big pharma – do they want you to know everything? No
People who suffer and people like Meryl need to be listed to as they offer us a approach independent of profit.
The big pharma companies are not really concerned about little old Jason they are concerned about share price and returns and they will do whatever they can get away with to keep the returns and share price high
Some things work out well and some don’t and if they don’t hey well we can always manipulate things out there so no-one will question us
There have been too many similar situations in the past and continuing now where large corporation have acted unethically and with a profit motive for us not to believe that they could do this again
The corporations are bigger and more powerful than the majority of the countries that they deal with and when they are not they managed to put their own people in government positions where they make decisions about the regulation of the industries they used to work in and the companies they used to work for. Check this out in the USA and see what I mean!
NO Jason everything needs to be questioned and held to account, there are some good things in vaccination and modern pharmaceuticals and some bad things too AND WE NEED TO HEAR BOTH SIDES
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“Now Jason Brown as you are a full on stop AVN campaigner I do not see that you are any better than the anti holocaust people in denying that some things happen”
I have never denied that vaccines can cause reactions. Neither has any SAVNer. What *is* true however is that anti-vaccine cultists trump every ‘reaction’ that happens after a vaccine as caused by the vaccine.
Reliance on VAERS (as Dorey does) is emblematic of this. As is Dorey’s reporting of “gardasil deaths” which included car crashes – seriously, car crashes – as ‘related to the vaccine’.
“Let us hear both sides” is almost always fallacious – and especially so in this field where the antivax side has proven itself time and time again of being incapable of providing accurate information.
Try harder, ‘anonymous’
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You should lurk moar.
Stop The AVN folk are the first to admit that serious side effects of vaccines, while very rare, happen from time to time.
When they do happen, there should be compensation, no question.
However the risks of not vaccinating are far, far greater than the risks of vaccinating.
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“I do not see that you are any better than the anti holocaust people in denying that some things happen”
- Strawman. No one is denying that rare vaccine adverse events can and do happen. Just not in plague proportions based on fallacious reasoning employed by anti-vaccinationists.
“The effect on others may be small, it may be incremental and it may show up years later. IT may show up in the increase in seemingly unrelated figures like the increase in ADD or autism or childhood cancer or something else that we can’t see yet.”
- Argument from ignorance. Another fallacy. ADHD, childhood cancer, and autism are not caused by vaccines, which is demonstrably so. You are proposing that we can’t prove that this will not happen (whereas this has already been investigated and found wanting).
“The people who are reacting now are like the canaries in a coal mine and I say heed the warning.”
- Just false. This sounds like it came from the anti-vaccine Canary Party, from the US.
“Try not to be fooled, the altruistic start of medicine in healing has like many many other aspects of our society been hijacked by a profit motive. The research you rely on is funded by big pharma – do they want you to know everything? No”
- The pharma shill gambit is actually offensive to people who work in research and health. Grow up.
“People who suffer and people like Meryl need to be listed to as they offer us a approach independent of profit.”
- Not sure what that says, but, how many magazines did you sign up for from meryl Dorey, and how many did you actually receive? Should Meryl be “listed”? Yes.
[another pharma shill gambit, see above]
“Some things work out well and some don’t and if they don’t hey well we can always manipulate things out there so no-one will question us”
- Citation? Where has something not turned out well, and then manipulated to appear that all is well?
[more pharma shill gambit, which is, basically, poisoning the Well, whilst denigrating the work of good people. Yes, pharma companies act like all big companies. This has no relation to epidemiology and immunology]
“NO Jason everything needs to be questioned and held to account, there are some good things in vaccination and modern pharmaceuticals and some bad things too AND WE NEED TO HEAR BOTH SIDES”
- Don’t make the mistake of overstating the bad things, and underplaying the good, especially when the bad are already acknowledged by never-ending research. Capslock will not make Meryl Dorey a legitimate “side” in vaccination discussions. Only an unexpected bout of honesty will do that for her. Don’t hold your breath.
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@mgb. Can you edit that, and re-post? Please?
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Here we go Peter – too rushed I see!!
Yes GO WOODFORD GO Meryl Here is one for free speech, lets hear both sides of the story and there IS two sides.
I met a guy just last month whose doctors first thought he had had a stroke – then even they recommended he look into the side effects of the flu vaccine. HE did, he matched all the symptoms, he is doing all he can but he still can’t walk properly yet and can’t drive so has no chance of going back to his former job.
Yes there are good things about vaccines but there are also things that can be a lot better, lets hear everything, let’s make what we do better rather than just hiding our heads ostrich like in the sand!
Yeah for WOODFORD – I will sadly miss you this year but everyone there have a great time
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“Yes there are good things about vaccines but there are also things that can be a lot better”
Hmmm. Dorey doesn’t think that. Dorey thinks vaccines are universally bad. Here’s a quote
““There will come a time – I pray to God that it will happen in my lifetime – when those who have pushed vaccines upon innocent, helpless babies – doctors, pharmaceutical companies, government officials – will be proven to have lied and cheated these instruments of death into our children’s bloodstream. When that occurs, the outcry will be heard around the world and there will not be enough hiding places on the globe for these murderers to hide or enough money to pay for compensation. Of course, it will be too late for the babies, like this poor child, to be saved. But we will be able to take satisfaction from the fact that never again will anyone have to be pushed to poison their child because for once and for all, it will be known as poison and we will all wonder how it was we fell for the vaccine lie for as long as we did.”
Meryl Dorey, President, Australian Vaccination Network AVN Yahoo group, 17 Dec 2008, message #36449″
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we need to hear what has to be said Jason the people who are being affected by vaccines are telling us something, if you look at the history of science from Copernicus onwards you will see that those who are telling a new or challenging debate have always been attacked by those who for some reason cannot see, cannot listen and are unable to adapt.
we must always question curiosity is the corner stone of discovery and at the moment the “discovery” being done is the profit motive for huge multinationals
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Please – wrapping yourself in the flag of “scientific debate” at the same time as defending scientific illiterates like Dorey?
Don’t make me laugh.
The woman is demonstrably incompetent to comment. Woodford should put on an actual expert, not a wannabe parsnip-stroking liar like Dorey.
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Oh, and as for “profit motives”, why not ask Meryl where the money goes that’s donated to the AVN?
http://luckylosing.com/2011/07/17/how-meryl-dorey-scammed-and-stole-11000-from-avn-members-andor-donors/
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mgb – that friend of yours that was though to have a stroke – did he have a CT scan of the brain? What pathology did they find? What aspect of the flu vaccine do you think caused his stroke? Just curious.
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What things are better than immunisation ??
Also to all the antivaccers of the opinion that it’s a big conspiracy by big pharma to make lots of money. How do you figure that??? These companies give it to the government and aid organisation for cost price and as a parent I paid nothing for the. So the way I figure it big pharma is actually taking a loss.
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Can we please start making science a core subject that is compulsory throughout all levels of schooling, not just up to year ten?
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And especially critical thinking and how to evaluate published papers etc. I was listening to some videos by a group of researchers that Sam Harris is involved in and they have some evidence that we are by default ideological in nature – we have hard wired biases and the most cognitively comfortable strategy is to just ‘go with them’. There is a group of ant-vax that is of this ilk – classic denialists I supppose. But there is another group of anti-vax as pointed out by Seth Mnookin. Those that are educated in X and as a result assume the ability to evaluate Y but do not possess the critical thinking abilities to do so – and as a result fall for the anti-government conspiracy laden tracts. I think an emphasis on critical thinking in general – how to evaluate the veracity of anything written without knowing the subject in question in detail would help. Many so called pro vaccine people do not have a vax background – but they don’t need one – they just need the ability to separate evidence from bullshit – they are not “pro vax” – they are pro evidence and the antivax crowd often fail to see this – projecting their own ideology onto others. Pro evidence people can safely use the consensus view – they don’t need to be experts.
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Alternative therapies don’t exist…there’s medicine and not-medicine…I’ll believe in the medicine, thanks very much!
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a lot of medicine started out as alternative. Take a classic case in point – it took the British Admiralty 100 years (yes that is one century) to accept that Vitamin C prevented scurvy in sailors!!!
Captain Cook adapted Vitamin C 80 years before it became common place in the British Navy – what a renegade
Also take a look at how long many new theories took to be accepted – Darwin’s Theories for example
Also another interesting fact – research shows that radical theories are more like to be accepted by peers when they are presented by a man not a woman!!
How about that one girls – just another of the gender bias so hidden in our culture
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The ‘alternative medicine’ that has been proven to work is called medicine. Aspirin, for example, is derived from willow bark.
Mainstream medicine has no problem adopting remedies that work, regardless of their origin.
That which remains ‘alternative’ has either been proven not to work, or has not been proven to work.
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Exactly…there really is nothing except medicine and not-medicine.
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Alternative: – a choice between MUTUALLY exclusive things.
Alternative Medicine IS NOT Medicine
What a specious and inappropriate argument to use the Captain
It is superstitious nonsense wrapped in science-y sounding words, sold to the uninformed, ignorant or desperate when actual medicine isn’t perfect or cannot help.
No actual reason to choose it.
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80 years eh? But aren’t we regularly reminded that some alt-med has been around for *thousands* of years? Homeopathy has been around for over 200 years.
I guess they’ll all be proven effective and accepted as medicine “pretty soon”.
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…and you call yourself an ‘ageing hippie’
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I made a choice 34 years ago not to vaccinate my 3 children.. I read what little info there was available. I took responsibility for their health and chose to align with alternate therapies. They are healthy adults now having children and wanting to follow the same alternate approach, as they are all very healthy and know what herbs or homeopathics assist them to never need to go to doctors or hospitals due to illness.
They go to doctors and hospitals when they break bones and are having babies and are incredibly greatful to the gifted professionals who have cared for them.
As has been said many times on the AVN site, and I hear it because I live it, people want information and want the freedom to choose their health options.
I am as passionate as Meryl as a mother who chooses to believe that I can make an INFORMED DECISION.
So stop attacking people and calling names, I pay taxes and I pay for my alternate health options,
I am glad to have a forum provided by AVN to connect with others who have made similar choices and share my story.
So please allow the debate and know that everyone has a right to their own opinion. My experiences are real and I have three very healthy informed and empowered adult children living a mainstream life working in respectable professions to prove that the choices I made were for their good health. They could see by their teenage years when their friends commented “how come you never seem to go to the doctors”, that what they had learned to do also was to take responsibility for what they put in their mouth and body.
That is what I suggest in this day and age is lacking- awareness that what we put into our body results in the health or lack of that results.
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So what you’re saying is that you fed your children placeboes through their entire childhood instead of getting them medical attention, and they were lucky enough to grow up without serious effects.
Well lucky you.
The fact is, though, that homeopathy does not work while vaccines do. One person’s experience is luck. Science does not work that way.
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Are you aware of the fraud committed in the name of scientific research? Ghost writers, conflict of interest, research with negative results hidden, etc etc etc. The PharmaMafia will go to great lengths to promote their highly profitable vaccine agenda. Open your mind and do research on your own; look at both sides of the issue with an open mind; I’ll give you one hint, just follow the $$$$$$$$$. You are nuts to trust allopathic medicine, which here in the US is responsible for over 200,000 deaths per year.
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That’s to say nothing of the *actual* fraud perpetrated by people trying to link vaccines to autism. Say, for example, the case of Andrew Wakefield who was disbarred from medicine for such attempts…
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and who is to say he was not disbarred for trying to prove that vaccines are linked to autism and not because of so called fraud?
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Um, you can say that all you like but it’s not true. He was disbarred for fraudulent conduct.
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“and who is to say he was not disbarred for trying to prove that vaccines are linked to autism and not because of so called fraud”
Yeah, maybe. Or maybe he was just a fraud. One of these alternatives requires a small number of people trying to keep a secret and failing (fraud), and the other requires literally hundreds of thousands of people keeping a secret sucessfully (conspiracy)
Occam’s razor says fraud (as does the evidence, incidentally)
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(Anonymous) Guest – how many deaths per year would the US have WITHOUT allopathic (orthodox) medicine?
Think about it – take away all surgery, anaesthetics, antibiotics, steroids, ventolin, ventilators, insulin, obstetrics, you name it. Care to contemplate the results of all these being replaced by homeopathy?
Do you know what homeopathic “remedies” contain? DO you know who manufactures them?
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Speaking of Fraud
http://luckylosing.com/2011/07/17/how-meryl-dorey-scammed-and-stole-11000-from-avn-members-andor-donors/
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homeopathy is a well researched and documented system of treatment for many ailments
Meg’s experience is a balanced one showing good health and mothering
Pasteur himself said at the end of his life that they key to health and disease prevention is in the gut
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“Pasteur himself said at the end of his life that they key to health and disease prevention is in the gut”
1. Old, dying people say loopy things. My grandma saw angels close to the end. Do angels therefore exist?
2. What does that have to do with homeopathy? Homepathy is *just water*. It’s a placebo, nothing more
3. Well researched and documented? Don’t make me laugh. This so-called “research” has been thoroughly ripped to threads by the 10:23 campaign in the UK, which you can find through the following link:
http://www.howdoeshomeopathywork.com/
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Homeopathy is indeed well researched and documented, and has been applied to many ailments.
However, the research clearly shows that it works no better than placebo.
Forsaking medicine for magic potions no more effective than water and sugar pills is neglectful.
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Homoeopathics have been tested on animals and on babies and it works. One of the tests for a placebo is that it wont work on an animal or babies. Hence Homoeopathy is not a placebo.
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Can you cite a specific study of animal homeopathy that has been well controlled, and replicated?
Many studies offered in support of animal homeopathy rely on the animals’ owners to just changes in the animals’ behaviour, and thus to just the effect of the ‘remedy’.
In such cases, it is not the animal that is succumbing to the placebo effect, but the owners.
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Rubbish and rubbish.
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More nonsense.
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Placebo By Proxy – well known and is a simpler, rational reason as to why placebo indeed applies to animals and babies – unlike the notion that homeopathy, which is plain water or sugar pills only, works. Look it up: http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=it_works_in_animals.php
Moreover, homeopathy has NEVER been substantiated to work in rigorous, properly designed studies or trials for any condition. Never. Both its main premises – like cures like, and homeopathy “law of infinitesimals” are pseudoscience with no valid supporting evidence or prior plausibility.
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Meg would you have been happy for your 3 children to grow up in Africa unimmunised? Would you still have believed vaccinations were not necessary? Instead of acknowledging your own parenting maybe you should be acknowledging the parents of the children that went to your kinders, schools etc. They kept your children safe, not you.
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Meg – would you consider Meryl Dorey’s views could contribute to an informed decision? DO you agree that there is no benefit but only harm from any vaccine? Do you really think it is feasible that polio and smallpox have been banished by something other than vaccination?
And all those gifted health professionals who have cared for your children when they needed them, did you know that they promote vaccination too? DO you think they were all brainwashed?
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And I chose to vaccinate my children 20 years ago, and they also have rarely needed a doctor due to their abundant good health. So your story recommending homeopathy etc proves what exactly?
“I pay taxes and I pay for my alternative health options” – How nice, but so would have those families your unvaccinated children infected with whooping cough, measles etc if they had contracted them. Except those poor families would have paid a far higher price than you.
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I still find it strange when people say they vaccinate their kids so they don’t get the diseases, and then read a statement like this where someone states that they are worried about the kids who have been vaccinated contracting the disease.
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Yeah, I feel the same way about people who wear seat belts but still complain about people who drink and speed. Don’t seat belts work?
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*sigh* I get so sick of having to explain this: vaccinations do not necessarily prevent infection. All they do is provoke the body to produce a store of antibodies so that when it encounters the disease “in the wild” it has a head start and can kill it off more quickly. As such, a vaccinated child can still catch a disease they have been vaccinated against. They are, however, far less likely to become contagious, as opposed to an unvaccinated child who is more likely to pass the disease on even if they don’t display many symptoms. This is why unvaccinated children need to stay at home if there is an outbreak- they can make the outbreak more severe and widespread, even amongst vaccinated children.
It constantly amazes me how ill-informed anti-vaxxers often are about how viruses actually work. Especially for a group who likes to bang on about all the research they’ve supposedly done…
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Sounds to me like your kids owe quite a lot to the families around them who took the “risk” of vaccinating their children against preventable diseases.
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A lot of people survived traffic accidents before seat belts were invented. Is this evidence that seat belts are part of a conspiracy and that, with a little RESEARCH, people would soon see that they shouldn’t wear them?
Perhaps Woodford will open that issue up for discussion next year.
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Car crash deaths were ALREADY decreasing before seatbelt use was made compulsory, because of stronger enforcement of laws against speeding and drink driving. Seat belt laws had nothing to do with this decline, despite what the graphs may seem to indicate.
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And don’t get me started on disc brakes and drum brakes.
Do you know that two hundred years ago, long before modern brakes were invented, no one died in car crashes. LOOK IT UP! The truth will shock you but you won’t find that information in books produced by the automotive industry – that’s why mechanics don’t know about it. They only know what they’re told.
I asked my mechanic what chemicals are used to make brakes and he didn’t know. I told him there’s no way I’m having brakes on my car if he doesn’t even know what’s in them.
DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH.
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*snerk*
Nice one!
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Be warned….
The anti-vaccine nutters are coming!
[Equips: Common Sense + Scientific Knowledge]
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Member of SAVN are we Sam?? They’re the nutters!
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[citation needed]
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The MM team’s response/s to this one has me feeling a little uncomfortable. Am currently icing the lump on my head from the anti-vaccination stick that I’ve just been clubbed with.
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surely meryl can recommend some amazing homeopathetic remedy for it?
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nothing 1 or 5 glasses of wine won’t fix
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My “favourite” example of anti-vaccine irresponsibility is my brother and his wife (who have decided not to vaccinate their 3 daughters), knowing that their 3 daughters all have whooping cough and still getting on a plane for however many hours to France and going on holiday anyway – exposing everyone else on that plane to the disease (newborn babies perhaps???)…
Not very fair on everyone else if you ask me….
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aaaaaaaaaaaaargh! surely that’s some shade of illegal
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Seriously!?!?!
That is low….. actually…. calling it a low act would be far to kind.
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Surely you could inform the airline of this gross irresponsibility?
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Agreed. It would be in the best interests of everyone who was unfortunate enough to share the flight with them.
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You know that is another issue completely beyond anti vaccinating. Bad enough not to vaccinate but to take contagious children out in public and on an international flight is neglectful – what if one of the kids had a sudden serious coughing attack mid flight and couldnt breathe?? As they havent been vaccinated they will have the full blown disease so this is a real possibility. What if there was a newborn, a pregnant woman, a person with reduced immunity??? This could kill people like that, which is disturbing and so many shades of wrong I can barely breathe. Whooping cough is a notifiable illness so lets hope customs finds out and stops them from leaving the country.
Sorry if I have carried on a bit but my mother has chronic lung disease and because of people who dont vaccinate and who dont stay at home when sick/or keep sick kids home she has to avoid crowds and long haul flights are an absolute no-no because catching something like this could be fatal to her.
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This was a couple of years ago and they did go through with the trip…
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Just so you know, those immunised against WC can still carry the disease and transmit it to others just as effectively – in fact even *more* so, because their symptoms are mild and not recognised as WC.
Anon, are you saying they had actually been diagnosed with WC and were still symptomatic and still chose to go on the flight? Are you sure they weren’t taking antibiotics and had been cleared by their doctor?
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Difficult question to answer, Jacqui – my brother is known for twisting things to suit what he wants to do at the time (ie, didn’t want to cancel the trip, so said the Dr had OK’d their travel). They were diagnosed a couple of days before they left, but they had had the cough for at least 2-3 weeks before diagnosis… we saw them the day before diagnosis, and I was told that they were just coughing due to running around. Yeah right…
Oh, and did I mention I had a 2-month old baby at the time?… was not too impressed when I found out they had WC!!
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“my brother is known for twisting things to suit what he wants to do at the time”
^^ Perfect trait for anti-vaxers, right there!
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I’m pretty sure that most airlines have policies on not accepting passengers carrying communicable diseases…..Wow. I just had friends who returned to France with a new born. I am so glad that they weren’t on your brother’s flight.
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I remember travelling through Asia a few years ago during swine flu and they had big temperate monitors at the airports. We were all healthy but I still worried that one of us would set the monitor off.
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They still have those now.
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Ah yes but they are relying on everyone else to be vaccinated aren’t they?!
Absolutely disgusting!
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I have loads of friends who have family in the UK, and they often take their under-6 month babies “back home” to see their grandparents. I feel sick thinking of the number of people with new and only partially immunised babies who will unknowingly be exposing their babies to a potential death sentence. You have to tell someone at the airline!
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I really understand parents’ concerns about vaccination – I had the same concerns when I was pregnant with my own children, but the thing that made me decide that it was in the best interests of my children is the fact that most of those diseases no longer exist in our societies anymore – why?? because of vaccination… so for me, it was the lesser of two evils to have it done.
Of course, I can’t speak for the parents who have had children damaged by those vaccines – I can only imagine it must be a heartbreaking thing to go through but at the end of the day, I had to make the decision for myself and myself alone…
Unfortunately, I’m not sure whether it is such a black-and-white issue…
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conspiracy theorists are fine when they are speculating if man really did land on the moon, or whether the US government actually plotted 9/11, or if elvis lives. But the conspiracy of ‘big pharma’ and the millions of doctors they have somehow collectively corrupted and silenced really angers me, because it could affect my health.
Find a new conspiracy, why don’t you.
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Why is Mama Mia anti anti-vaccination???? Whatever happened to freedom of speech and freedom of choice? Mia Freedman, as a journalist, you should be ashamed of yourself.
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Because people who don’t vaccinate contribute to deaths and disease. Thought it was pretty simple…
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MM Team…can I just say how proud I am of you guys for taking such a strong stand against the AVN…thank you for caring about the truth and caring for the welfare of children.
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Thanks JJ. We are passionate about this and will put all out weight behind it. The anti-vaxxers, led by the AVN use propaganda, misinformation, intimidation and fear mongering to spread their dangerous message. It’s time that stopped.
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Oh Mia. It makes me so sad that you haven’t done your research before you make such strong statements. There is a wealth of information out there from many, many sources (not just the AVN) and many, many doctors and members of the medical community supporting anti or selective vaccination because it CAN be so dangerous. I used to think you were awesome…
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A lot of the anti-vax commentators seem to PUNCTUATE their posts with CAPS. I wonder if they are all the same POSTER
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Oh Jesse. It makes me so sad that you don’t believe in protecting human from dangerous and potential diseases. And I’m pretty sure that Mia can live with one less person thinking she’s awesome….
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+1
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+ 2
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As a mother of two fully vaccinated children who have BOTH had whooping cough this year, thank you Mamamia for taking this stand. I had two incredibly sick children thanks to those who don’t immunise – I hate to think how bad they would have been if they weren’t immunised
Or if they were younger – they are 9 & 10, can’t imagine going through it with a baby.
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but i thought if your child was vaccinated they were covered??????????????????????????????????????????????????
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Last year my 2 daughters and I got confirmed whooping cough, and guess who caught it first – my vaxed daughter, who then passed it onto my unvaxed daughter and myself (I was the sickest). When I was young I had the whooping cough vaccine as required, and I then also caught whooping cough. If the vaccines were so great your kids wouldn’t have got it.
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clear-cut issues do not deserve equal coverage.
If you were reporting a murder, you wouldn’t give half the space to the murderer to defend why they did it and why the victim deserved it.
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She probably likes children.
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“Why is Mama Mia anti anti-vaccination”
Because mamamia cares about what’s true, maybe?
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Because Mama Mia cares about life
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Agreed Mia Freedman I find you very conservative and narrow
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You are clearly new to the site. Welcome.
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In what world is Mia Freedman conservative? I would say she is socially progressive.
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I chose my current research field with much hanks tot he work Mia did with Cosmo when she introduced the whole body love thing. The day i saw a size 12 model in a swimsuit editorial made me so happy, and I think that was like 10 years ago!!! she was gorge!!! Her work then paved the way for my work now. Her work with vaccination awareness paves the way for factual information to be brought into the light. I would definitely say socially progressive – that said, occasionally i find some of Mias views slightly conservative – but thats fine as well. Mia is true to herself, and I find that to be incredibly inspiring. (sorry to be speaking as if I know you Mia. Its just how I feel
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Proud actually. Proud to stand beside those who have been working for years to try and shine a light in the appalling work of the AVN an the danger they pose by continuing to peddle misinformation that can kill other people’s babies.
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Yeah Mia, what gives? I bet you’re anti-drink-driving and anti-speeding too. Whatever happened to freedom of speech and freedom of choice?
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I am anti-drink-driving and anti-speeding.
Because both these actions put other lives in risk.
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Andy – what planet are you on? Anti-drink-driving, anti-speeding and anti-vaccination. They all have the potential to harm others! I cannot believe you made such a statement!
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Sorry, sarcasm often fails in text format.
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I ‘liked’ the Woodford Folk Festival FB page so I could put up a comment about MD speaking. Here’s a link if anyone else wants to comment. The page doesn’t allow direct posting so I had to piggyback on a post they had put up.
https://www.facebook.com/woodfordfolkfestival/posts/189760781117264?notif_t=like
MD is in the program as well on P.56. Check out the amusing biography (well, amusing if you enjoy fiction!)
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My goodness, not to be blunt, but you guys sound so ignorant, extremely conservative, and biased! Ofcourse there are two sides to the story! Pharmaceutical companies these days are the richest in the world, ahead of oil corporations, and their “new” vaccines they put forth every month is only a small part of their income. Infants these days supposedly need more than 20 vaccinations before the age of 2, in my youth it was just 5 or so by the time I was 18, and in which case the vaccines gave you a small bout of the desease/virus so that you became immune to it that way, it still happens. The exact ingredients of the vaccines are never discussed, most doctors are often not even informed, but it is true that there’s small amounts of MERCURY in EVERY vaccination, which harms some children more than others and has been known to cause autism. Both my parents have worked in the health industry for years and through them and their stories I know of at least 5 cases of autism caused by a vaccinations. Mercury, which used to be utilized in fillings for teeth at dentists, is now banned at most. It is more harmful than you obviously all know and has a radioactive toxicity if placed inside the body. I normally love your blogs and articles Mamamia, but this one just made me angry. Before expressing your opinion out of ignorant passion, how about initually doing some thorough research from both sides of the story. How about going to have an unbiased listen to what she has to say anyway. You might gain some insight.
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“How about going to have an unbiased listen to what she has to say anyway. You might gain some insight.”
We’ve heard it. We’ve fact-checked it. It’s incorrect.
http://www.facebook.com/stopavn
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by the way
” It is more harmful than you obviously all know and has a radioactive toxicity if placed inside the body”
is the most hilariously ignorant-of-chemistry statement I’ve seen in weeks. Thanks for the laughter.
GRapi = 0 (Gamma Ray American Petroleum Institute Units)
Mercury is Not Radioactive
source: http://webmineral.com/data/Mercury.shtml
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But it’s not about mercury – it’s about MERCURY.
I wasn’t concerned about it until I saw it written in ALL-CAPS!!!
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*Sigh*. Someone named “Truth” says “it is true that there’s small amounts of MERCURY in EVERY vaccination, which harms some children more than others and has been known to cause autism.”
Capslock makes it true.
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“It is more harmful than you obviously all know and has a radioactive toxicity”
Oh, FFS…mercury is a metal and is not naturally radioactive!
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So it’s ok to inject metal into your children, JohnJames?
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We all ingest mercury – each and every one of us – each and every day…mercury is toxic in large doses or over long periods of time…if any vaccines do contain mercury, it would be in such a small amount that the body would flush it away in no time…
Get real!
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By age two, American children have received 237 micrograms of mercury through vaccines alone, which far exceeds current EPA “safe” levels of .1 mcg/kg. per day. That’s one-tenth of a microgram, not one microgram.
This means that children are getting many times the amount of mercury that the EPA deems safe from the shots that are mandated by the government.
The figure of one autistic infant for every 150 is now widely documented
Autism and mercury poisoning damage the:
•Brain/nerve cells
•Eyes
•Immune system
•Gastrointestinal system
•Muscle control
•The speech center.
Although mercury toxicity has been studied for decades, and EPA safety levels have been set, during all that time, a child’s greatest exposure to mercury – thimerosol in vaccines – was never even included in the toxicity studies.
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Three things:
1) Citation please
2) Thimerosol was only ever used in multiple shot vials which aren’t used for children’s vaccines (single shot vials only) and besides which, it’s not used in vaccines anymore anyway due to consumer pressure. Plus, information about American children doesn’t necessarily transfer across to Australia wholesale.
3) Do you people who stress over mercury also abstain from eating seafood and try not to breathe too deeply around coal-fired power stations and such? Honestly, child vaccines are probably one of the few things in the world where any trace of mercury has actively been removed!
And for those people who like to claim that we don’t even know what’s in the vaccines can I please recommend that you read the fact sheets for each individual vaccine that are freely available online? Back when I was pregnant and doing my own research I stumbled upon them quite easily and they detailed exactly what’s in each vial. It’s really not that mysterious!
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This is, I think, the first time I’ve ever been called conservative. Putting that in the manilla folder.
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Your manila folder fabulously decorated with colour and movement, I take it?
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And here I was thinking that vax – autism myth was dead in the water…. *sigh* ……
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So I herd you like baseless conspiracy theories….
You… yes you!
If you are as truly informed as you say you are, you would not be spreading baseless words such as this.
kthxbai
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Thanks ‘truth’. We’ve done the research. So have, you know, SCIENTISTS.
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Science does not always equal truth.
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No – anything we want to be true is true and we don’t need no stinkin’ science to show it. For example, science doesn’t admit it, but computer keyboards are LETHALLY radioactive. Run away, run away!
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Well gosh, if your name is truth and you type in CAPS it must be true! Won’tsomeonethinkofthechildren??? *runs screaming into the woods
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They don’t use mercury anymore and haven’t for quite a while now…… New research coming through at the moment is suggesting that autism is linked to something going wrong in the 2nd trimester of pregnancy when a huge amount of the brain is developed. The brains of deceased children who had autism have been found to have approx. 60% more complex and dense connections (I’m not a scientist so could barely understand the med article I read) which is thought to be where the problem originates. I received a copy from my brother-in-law who has been an obstetrician for 15 years and has just completed some crazy qualification in maternal-foetal medicine (one of the most highly qualified in his field in Australia now). There is NO WAY he would harm kids (he’s one of the smartest and loveliest people I know) and he’s had all 4 of his own kids vaccinated which was what gave me the confidence to vaccinate mine despite the hysteria!
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Will be interesting to read that research. Incidentally the brain also grows rapidly in the babies first 6 months of life too – when a huge amount of vaccines are given.
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…and huge amounts of breast milk too. Hmmm, that should be investigated.
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ROFL Andy – Quick, we’d better start an anti-mammary movement now!
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But not MMR, which is what gets blamed for autism.
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If you’re so worried about radioactive substances (which mercury is not one of!), check out http://www.enenews.com
That’ll give you something radioactive to be scared about.
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When an anonymous person posts as “truth” you just know its going to be an oxymoron…
Show us the evidence of mercury in “every” current Australian vaccine, un-truth. Have you done you own independent lab testing? What are your credential for being believed beyond the people who actually know immunology and vaccine science. IF your original research is credible, post under your own name.
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Autism is a complex condition and is likely to be caused by many factors, some environmental, some genetic. The reason that autism and vaccination are linked in people’s minds and by anti-vaccinators is probably due to the fact that signs of autism become apparent at the same time that the vaccinations in question is given, The autism was present from birth, no-one suddenly becomes autistic. If people are honest they will know that there has always been something “different” about their family member who is eventually diagnosed with autism.
Frightening new mums about autism is counterproductive. My granddaughter, who is autistic, and her classmates in the special class she attends are all vaccinated and continued to receive the relevant vaccinations after their various diagnoses.
Parents of the current generation may not be old enough to have suffered measles, mumps, etc or old enough to know anyone who has had polio and so vaccination may not seem so important. But please remember that new babies can DIE from exposure to these diseases and to whooping cough. The more of us who are vaccinated the less likely new babies are to be exposed.
People say that we are entitled to make informed decisions about whether or not to vaccinate their children. I disagree. I think that is like saying we are entitled to drive at 150 kilometers an hour because we thought about it and it is the right thing for us.
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By their stores i take it you mean they had health food stores, that does not mean they worked in the health industry it makes them grocers. Your statements about drug companies is more of a critique of the level of deregulation in the US economy, this is not the case in Australia, France, Germany, New Zealand the UK or Canada.
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Meryl has a perfect right to have her own opinions, but she cannot have her own facts. The danger in allowing paranoid “big pharma” New World Order conspiracy nut cases like Meryl to speak is that some people will mistake her delusions for reality. I fully encourage information to be disseminated where it is supported by verifiable evidence from reputable sources, unfortunately this is not the case with the humorously title “Australian Vaccination Network”.
For those who may not be aware, Meryl and her army of mindless zombies have a long history of silencing dissenting views – I should know as I was banned for politely asking a simple reasonable question (and have the evidence to prove it). Of course, we have come expect such blatant hypocrisy from the AVN.
Please do not give them a platform to spread their ignorance and lies.
For those who may not be aware, Meryl and her army of mindless zombies have a long history of silencing disenting views
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what makes you think that as a consequence of listening to this woman speak, that those festival goers (who are ambivalent or not opposed to vaccination) will suddenly decide not to vaccinate their children?
Are they a sea of cultural dopes in your eyes?
In relation to ABC radio’s support of this woman’s appearance at the festival, the media, and other organisations, provide a platform for the dissemination of myriad forms of (sometimes harmful) misinformation (much of which comes from our politicians).
I think people are smarter than you give them credit for.
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If people were smarter than we give them credit for, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. It’s a sad fact of life that many people find it difficult to judge truth and fact from lies and misinformation…People like Dorey prey on that fact.
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I believe strongly, that those who are ambivalent will investigate/or will have already investigated the pros and cons, and will not base their decision on the words of one woman.
This is not a rice or pasta for dinner topic, this is about people’s babies. So I stand by my claim that this woman is less a threat than Peter claims.
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“I believe strongly, that those who are ambivalent will investigate/or will have already investigated the pros and cons”
That’s the problem. Dorey believes she has thoroughly investigated, and she’s come out the other end with a pack of nonsense.
And sure, the words of one woman may not be a huge problem, but Dorey is a representative of a group which is the spearhead of a large anti-vaccination movement. She’s not a lone crank – she’s a crank backed up by a whole community of other cranks.
Stop concern trolling
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huh?
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trying to downplay the importance of an issue, or otherwise critiquing a reaction from a faux-sympathetic position is commonly known as “concern trolling”. If you don’t think this is a big deal, that’s fine. But I have to wonder why you’re bothering to downplay the issue, if it’s so insignificant?
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I don’t really know how to respond to being called a ‘concern troll’ but I imagine that rendering me speechless was your intention with this gibe.
The issue is, to be sure, an important one- how I have given you the impression that it is not, I can’t fathom.
My posts are referring to Peter’s inference that the festival goers need protecting in some way…I say they are smart enough to consider more than the words of one woman before making such an important decision (not to vaccinate).
Oh and do we call people names at dinner parties?
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I believe it is about choice and knowing both sides of an argument is always best when it comes to making your own decision about your own health. I also believe that if you do some actual investigation of your own into this speaker you will find out that she is not ‘anti vaccine’ but all about being informed about what your choices are when it comes to vaccination.
It’s so easy to just grab that pitchfork and torch if others are doing it, but that again is the mob mentality that many industries want from you – don’t think, just do, they will do the thinking for you.
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To evaluate both sides of an argument, you require ACCURATE information.
Dorey does not provide accurate information.
End of story.
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I can see you researched that yourself with accurate information from both sides.
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No, that’s extremely difficult.
Because, you see, the antivax side does NOT provide accurate information.
For instance. Meryl Dorey recently quoted a study that had found parts-per-billion levels of mercury residue in some vaccines. She reported it as parts per million – wrong by a factor of 1000 – and when corrected, prevaricated for a few minutes then REPEATED THE LIE.
Her innumeracy is legendary, leading her to claim there are 31 vaccines in the NSW schedule (there are in fact 12) and using some very hokey maths to arrange it
http://www.mycolleaguesareidiots.com/archive/2010/07/18/Another-day-another-Dorey-ism.aspx
There’s a few links to Meryl’s failure to tell the truth on that page. Feel free to browse.
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12? 12 needles maybe. But each needle contains more than 1 vaccine.
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Redefining what the word “vaccine” means does not suddenly make Dorey right. Vaccine, for the purposes of the schedule, is per-injection.
However, had you read the link provided, you’ll have seen that I address the issue of polyvalency
Meryl counted infanrix hexa as three vaccines in one. It is in fact hexavalent – meaning it covers six diseases. She also counted MMR as one – but that is trivalent.
She is either innumerate or a liar. End of story
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The exact same things can be said about many doctors and scientists.
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as I’ve said before…
[citation needed]
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I really don’t like the thought of any parts of mercury being pumped directly into my veins at all!
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“I really don’t like the thought of any parts of mercury being pumped directly into my veins at all!”
Oh, well you’re in luck. No vaccines on the current schedule are injected intravenously.
Just another antivax lie debunked
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Well you should be fine then, as the entire childhood immunisation schedule is mercury-free (and injected intramuscularly, not intravenously as Jason pointed out)
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Anon, do you or Meryl recommend people Vax their kids? It is a yes/no question. That will answer whether you are anti-vax or not.
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…and here they come…
The AVN has been described as a provider of “misleading, inaccurate and deceptive” vaccination information by the NSW Health Care Complaints Commission and has been heavily criticised by doctors and other experts on immunisation. The group has been called the “stronghold of the anti-vaccination movement” in Australia and is subject to widespread criticism from medical professionals, scientists and other proponents of vaccination.
On 14 October 2010, the organisation’s right to fundraise was stripped from it by the New South Wales Office of Liquor, Gaming and Racing, stating that its appeals had “not been conducted in good faith for charitable purposes”
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Just stop it. Meryl Dorey is anti-vaccine. She says so herself:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/65120730/Meryl-Dorey-is-Anti-Vaccine-The-AVN-is-Anti-Vaccine-This-is-a-Fact
“Anonymous”, can you please cite the “witch hunt”. Please, do it.
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I don’t undersatnd why some people are so scared of information.
In my experience with the AVN they give out information as to the “other side” of the story – the side many vested interests don’t want you to know about.
Freedom of choice I say & with that freedom must come information.
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Yup, information should rule above all else. And facts should be instrumental in that information. When both are forsaken, as so often happens with the AVN, then that should have no room in public debate.
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To which “other side” do you allude, Michele?
The recent information where Dorey reposted, and agreed with, an article from a madman calling for the summary execution of CDC Officials, doctors and others?
http://reasonablehank.com/2011/11/13/im-anxious-and-confused/
Or, the “other side”, where she sells from her online shop, AIDS-denialism, crank cancer therapy, scientology, and other misleading and dangerous cult-like information?
http://reasonablehank.com/2011/12/05/the-avns-little-shop-of-horrors/
I’m interested in the factual basis of this “other side”
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Basically when you say “vested interests” what you mean is big pharma are paying off doctors, scientists, researches to promote their supposedly dangerous drugs. Don’t dance around your conspiracy, say it out loud.
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Michele, you say ‘with that freedom must come information’. Couldn’t agree more, honestly. It’s the misinformation that’s the problem.
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Meryl Dorey has just posted this on her Facebook page, where she bans all who provide accurate information, or question her claims:
“This website is attacking the Woodford Folk Festival and their sponsors for allowing me to speak about vaccinations. They do not believe that people have a right to access information on the downside of vacciination. In fact, they think it is dangerous to allow people have full information on vaccines. Of course it is! It’s dangerous for big pharma, the medical community and the government health departments – they all stand to lose money if people are fully informed.
Can you please make comments on this site and share with your friends and famiily?
Thanks,
Meryl”
This, of course, is a burning Strawman argument.
“They do not believe that people have a right to access information on the downside of vacciination”
- This is untrue. Problems with vaccination should be and are discussed regularly.
“they think it is dangerous to allow people have full information on vaccines”
- This is untrue. The only person who subverting the information here is Meryl Dorey. The community should have a transparent view of the risks and benefits of vaccinating or not. The AVN does not provide this information in an honest fashion.
“It’s dangerous for big pharma, the medical community and the government health departments – they all stand to lose money if people are fully informed.”
- Ah, the Pharma Shill Gambit. The only person losing money due to the community being “fully informed” is Meryl Dorey. Got to love the conspiracy theorist, especially when they blurt it out so openly.
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Hey Meryl…Too bloody right we are attacking you!
*waves*
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I think that the reason that this is so dangerous is probably because of fence sitters, new parents and other vulnerable categories of people. Of course, people who have made up their mind to vaccinate or not are usually fairly staunch in their decision, and someone like Dorey is not going to persuade a pro vaccinationist to stop vaccinating. However, there is a culture of fear mongering…the “toxin” talk, the hoopla over incredients (polysorbate 80! POLYSORBATE 80!!!!!…oh…the stuff in icecream…?) that will infiltrate the minds of people who havent yet made their decision about vaccinating. Or new parents who hear frightening things about vaccines and their rare adverse effects, and decide to forego their newborn’s shots.
The biggest thing in the vaccination research debate is to be critical of your sources. When Dorey is touted as an “expert in vaccination” then we have problems. Because she isnt. Either is Sherri Tenpenny, Viera Schreibner or Mike Adams. Reputable information comes from the CDC, Government Health websites, or your own GP. This woman has no medical background and is not to be trusted.
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Let us remember that the festival is held over a week with many many performers and different venues for discussions. One person that is anti vaccine talking in two different hour long sets, one of which is a panel does not mean that the festival is anti vaccine or that it is promoting an anti vaccine stance – neither does it mean that the sponsors should withdraw- what about all of the other wonderful things happening at the festival? You want that to be jeopardized because of one speaker whom you don’t approve of? I don’t approve of this woman either – but come on- a bit of perspective please. Among any controversial topics or improtants topics there are two sides to the debate, whilst we know that this woman uses lies to fuel hers- there still has to be room for the discussion in society. I vaccinated my daughter, but I don’t feel entirely comfortable with it and it does scare me- can anyone tell me why my daugter born four weeks early and weighing only 2 kg needed a hep b vaccine days after being born? Whilst this lady is extreme and a liar- there are two sides to vaccinating and just because less children get hurt being vaccinated than those that are being protected doesn’t mean that you just shut down all discussion about it.
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There are not 2 sides to the vaccination story…!
Vaccination saves lives…but for vaccination to work in the community, the vast majority of people must be vaccinated…end of story.
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vaccination does significantly harm some though, with many many cases out there showing that this has been the case. IT is happening surely we deserve to have some more research done so that we can see what is going wrong for some and do something to fix it.
Fact: some people do react badly some people are maimed for life some poeple do die. THe courst system recognises this and the US govt has funds to cover the costs: when will big oharma allow science to acknowledge this too?
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Serious vaccination side effects are rare and are studied thoroughly.
Yes, they happen. Yes there should be compensation.
BUT: the risks of not vaccinating are far, far greater than the risks of vaccinating.
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So, it’s okay to give a platform to a “liar”, just, well, because?
There are not “two sides” to vaccination issues. There is researchers, doctors, nurses, who know what they are talking about, and openly discuss and debate the flaws in particular vaccines, either due to adverse events or efficacy; on the other hand, playing on the highway outside research facilities, are anti-vaccination liars.
Why trust your child’s health to a “liar”? Why give her a platform, just, because?
If the Festival organisers were genuine about this, they would have invited real experts to have a vaccination debate. These debates, among experts, are happening as we type this.
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Would the festival give time, cred and oxygen to someone who wanted to get up and claim that smoking during pregnancy is harmless? Just to give ‘different’ views?
By inviting Dorey to speak, she is being given explicit legitimacy by Woodforde.
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Mia, yet another Vaccination article? Is Vaccination really so good that you need to be engaged in free advertising on behalf of the Scientocracy? You are being manipulated and exploited by the vested interests in Vaccination, that is, Nurses, Doctors, Scientists and the Pharma lobby.
There ARE 2 sides to the risks of Vaccination. Why are you complicit in attempting to silence one side of the discussion. Vaccination isn’t all that!
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Do you really believe that doctors and nurses, many of whom are parents themselves would sacrifice the health of their own kids because of manipulation and perceived kickbacks from pharmaceutical companies? I don’t. I’ll go with education and hard work over myths and scare-mongering any day.
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“There ARE 2 sides to the risks of Vaccination”
Yes, Johanna. There’s the truth on one side and there’s antivax nonsense on the other.
Find a new conspiracy theory, there’s plenty out there.
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Firstly, I don’t trust my childs health to this woman?! Secondly, you state that there are no two sides to vaccination and then state that nurses, doctors blah blah discuss the pros and cons- isn’t that the two sides? But you can only discuss them if you’ve studied medicine and science? Hmmmm.
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…and Mussolini made the trains run on time. Just because there are redeeming factors such as great music and a fun atmosphere doesn’t mean we should shy away from criticising something (or in this case, someone) we find abhorrent.
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For the same reason my 6-weeks-early 1.7kg daughter needed a Hep B vaccine – to help protect her from contracting a potentially lethal illness at an extremely vulnerable time in her life.
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Goodness I’m surprised you need to ask why your premmie daughter needs a hep b vaccine. Hep B is easliy spread from mother to child, especially in the weeks after birth. Also given that she would be subject to many medical procedures (I’m presuming she stayed in the nicu) then she would have needed an extra boost just in case she was exposed to it.
I presume that she also received alot of other medical interventions (steroid shots, oxygen, surfactant) to ensure she stayed healthy. I hope that you didn’t question the benefit of those either. Medical science has done so much to help so many live rich full healthy lives. Vaccination forms one part of that. The lies from people like MD show such a callous disregard for human life that taints those who associate themselves with her.
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As a parent you have many choices to make for your children. What to feed them. Where to educate them. The list goes on. These choices generally effect just them. Choosing not to vaccinate effects the community in general. This then becomes a public heath decision NOT a personal one.
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So true. LJ. It’s like washing your hands after you go to the toilet. It’s not about personal preference or freedom of choice.
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So right Kate. A friend of mines’ one year old has just recovered from a very nasty bout of chicken pox. He is too young to be vaccinated, but others are not. His health is our responsibility.
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It becomes VERY personal when you have a vaccine injured child, as I do.
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Do you mean your little one can’t be vaccinated or you believe the vaccination caused her injury?
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What is their injury? Has it been proven to have been caused by a vaccine?
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“As a parent you have many choices to make for your children. What to feed them. Where to educate them. The list goes on. ”
And I wonder how anti-vaxxers ever make any of those decisions given that they must never trust any authority and must “do their own research” on everything.
Ham sandwiches have risks. So does lentil soup. The local playground has risks. So does a lounge room. Cots, prams, beds, pillows, blankets, jumpers, pants, shirts, nappies, bottles, homeopathy, vitamins, breast milk, childbirth, carrying, holding, cuddling, rocking, transporting, drinking, sniffing, sunlight, shadow, wind, rain, hail, computers, iPhones, iPods, buses, trains, walking, running, hopping, skipping … the list of risks is truly endless.
Where does one even start researching?
D’oh! Of course the answer is “vaccines” Silly me.
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I don’t have a problem with Meryl speaking at the event, but I don’t want her billed as a ‘leading expert in vaccination’.
Meryl has NO qualifications, her evidence is rarely backed up (check out meryldorey.org to see how she doesn’t even back up her own links and statements) and she admits she is a mother who researched vaccines after her son developed sleep apnea following a vaccine.
I welcome anyone with a different viewpoint, and I don’t even agree vaccines should be mandatory. But don’t hold off giving your children vaccines because you don’t think these diseases are dangerous.
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Vaccines caused sleep apnoea? Oh wow. There’s a basis for a whole movement. Fuuuuuuuuuuck.
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honestly, this is outrageous. People are so easily scared into not vaccinating.
One of the problems is that our human brains have a negativity bias. That means that we are evolutionarily disposed to give greater weight and meaning to negative information – threats – than positive information. For every scary thing that people like Ms. Dorey spout, the greater the work which needs to be done to reassure people. Public health campaigns can only be hurt by this nonsense. Why not invite someone who can give some genuine, evidence based issues around vaccination?
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Or as Seth Mnookin puts it in The Panic Virus, it’s easy to scare people, but it’s hard to un-scare them.
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I am led to believe that the Council CEO is looking into this issue, and will be responding in due course.
This issue rests solely on the heads of festival organisers who have a duty of care and a social reponsibility to ensure that festival goers are fully aware that Meryl Dorey is not an honest broker of health information, and that this finding is official. There is no doubt that Meryl Dorey misleads, is inept, and carries an intellectual dishonesty which will not allow her to correct her misinformation.
This is the promotional blurb for this round of Dorey appearances:
“Investigate before you vaccinate is the motto of the AVN. Having collected reports of thousands of Australian families whose children have been killed or injured by these shots, Meryl knows that the benefits of vaccines don’t always outweigh the risks. Her information is sourced from medical data and is necessary for anyone who has a family or is thinking about being vaccinated…Recent evidence shows that autism has increased from 1 child in 10,000, 30 years ago to 1 child in 38 today. This is a true health emergency. Meryl Dorey explains more about the causes of this epidemic so you can help prevent your children from being affected.”
This is an absolute travesty in its dishonesty; and the potential to mislead festival goers into thinking Meryl Dorey is a reputable source of vaccination information is obvious.
Festival sponsors would not be aware of the line-up (well, they are now), but they need to ensure that Woodford organisers accept the responsibility which is incumbent upon anyone who wishes to provide a forum advising on health information, that that information is accurate.
That Festival organisers have repeatedly refused to enter into a dialogue, both now and in the past, speaks of the recalcitrance on their behalf to accept any social responsibility in this instance.
Poor form. Poor due diligence. Poor kids’ health.
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“Autism epidemic”? – there isn’t one
For an excellent run down on what is so distastefully dishonest about the promo, see this post:
http://luckylosing.com/2011/12/11/woodford-folk-festival-promote-dangerous-anti-vaccination-myths/
For more on Dorey’s database of death and injury from vaccines, see in this post:
http://reasonablehank.com/2011/12/09/woodford-folk-festival-posing-a-risk-to-public-health-and-safety/
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Autism and politics- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f_s8WcfUMM
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Woodford Folk Festival is such a wonderful and amazing festival, it’s a bit disappointing that they are providing a platform for such a scary organisation. Particularly given that a large number of families with young children attend the festival each year…
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Woodford is way more than a folk festival, I have been attending for 15 years and they always have talks, debates and interesting people discussing topics to raise awareness and educate people on different points of view. One of the fabulous features of the festival is the diversity in music, patrons and opinions and the atmosphere it creates. The Festivals program is not dictated by their sponsors, they support the festival and it’s ethos as a whole and the festival is created by diversity.
You make the point that people may believe what she says because they are uninformed, I think most Australians don’t inform themselves about vaccination they follow the guidelines set by the pharmaceutical companies and government rather than understanding what they are putting into their children’s bodies. Perhaps a different opinion to that of mainstream Australia will spark some people to research further and make an informed and educated decision?
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Different opinions are fine. But this lady and the AVN as a whole misrepresent themselves as presenting their opinions as FACTS. That is the danger.
And lets be serious. The amount of idiots who would listen to this and take it as gospel are always going to far outweigh those who will research the topic thoroughly themselves and come to their own conclusion based on objective evidence.
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Agreed.
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Vaccination is hardly under-researched. Why not just look at the thousands of peer-reviewed studies that explain how and why it works?
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Tess, we don’t need to ‘research further’ into the allegations of the anti vaxxers, the proof is already out there as to the efficacy of vaccination and the lack of any link to autism.
If a group suddenly started telling us smoking is good for your lungs would we ignore the decades of research which has shown the truth to give credence to a lunatic fringe? This is exactly what the anti vax movement is!
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2c – I don’t think vaccines are completely safe for ALL of our children, but I think it is safer to get them vaccinated.
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You are right. No doctor has ever claimed vaccinations are 100% safe and 100% effective. But they are safer and more effective than the alternative of none or some untested natural therapy’s. As they say, it’s a numbers game.
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+1
I briefly had some concerns about vaccination when my son was born, but as my family GP said (as any GP worth their salt will tell you) – yes, there is a tiny, miniscule health risk that comes from vaccination, but there’s much more of a risk to their health if you choose not to vaccinate.
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My husband says if his dogs cannot go to kennels unless they are vaccinated to protect them and others, then why can other peoples children attend school or daycare with our vaccinated children, without being vaccinated? i have seen the devasting cruelness of whooping cough and measles, it is horrid.
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I guess if she has been given a place to speak that indicates there is interest in what she has to say…don’t people have a right to hear her and make up their own minds? I know I did and have…. I’ve listened to both sides of the debate and made a choice for my children… looks like others are also interested in hearing more information from a side that is rarely heard from…
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There is no “both sides” to this debate…all the so-called evidence that anti-vaxers sprout to support their cause has been discredited…
Next thing you’ll be telling me is that flat-earthers have equal rights for debates as NASA scientists…
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I think if people want to hear both sides she is the last person they would listen too. She has been shown to be chronically dishonest and a liar in regard to vaccinations in order to push her own agenda.
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What really gets to me is the name “Australian Vaccination Network”. It gives off the false and misleading impression that this “group” and all it’s BS propaganda is linked to our government bodies and it’s views. Am I the only one that thinks the name HAS to change?
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I agree. It sounds official, and almost government related in some way. Anti Vaccination Network sounds much more fitting!
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I agree – and that’s the problem with letting Meryl speak at Woodford: it gives her group and her views a level of credibility that they do not deserve.
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Can’t individuals be trusted to use their own intelligence and make up their own minds about vaccination? Meryl Dorey may espouse ‘dangerous ideas’ but if the overwhelming evidence out there really does support vaccination then I don’t see how she is such a threat. Of more concern to me is the crackdown on free speech and the total witch-hunt relating to anything that is even slightly outside of the mainstream. The sponsors know that it is an ‘alternative’ festival.
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That’s an interesting point. I think I’d feel a lot better personally about people making up their own minds if the facts were presented objectively. But check the way the Festival billed Dorey as a ‘leading expert in vaccination’ in 2009. That’s the same woman who has been discredited by the HCCC and told to include a warning about her own information on her own site. Does she do that? No. When it comes to public health people should be required to be scientific and dutifully cautious when presenting alternative theories. Meryl is anything but.
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Dorey continues to present discredited studies as “fact”…that is incredibly irresponsible…
And as someone who had measles as a child, I find it insulting to have measles described as “benign”…I remember how sick I was…I remember crying for no apparent reason simply because of how bad I felt…it is an awful disease…
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People get brain swelling from measles. This is not in times past when the treatments were maybe less sophisticated either. There is a genuine risk of brain damage and death.
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If that is true then individuals will see that for themselves. I think we are all over-reacting and underestimating people’s intelligence. She is a loose cannon but there are some kernels of common sense in some of her info. I feel just as suspicious as the govt’s vaccines-fit-all approach and denial of vaccine reactions as I do for some of her claims. I think borh sides probably overdo their claims.
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” I think we are all over-reacting and underestimating people’s intelligence”
If that were true, why are some people still believing the lies of the anti-vaxers and not vaccinating their children? Lots of people, I’m afraid, are lazy thinkers and take people like Dorey at face value without doing further research…
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I wish we were underestimating people’s intelligence, but I feel sadly, you may be overestimating it. Not all people are equally aware of how medical research works and what good research is, nor could necessarily understand it if they read it. Not everyone is good at rationally analysing information. I wish they were, I really do. We have a government that pays well qualified people to ensure that the public receive the best, most accurate and relevant health advice in order to keep people safe. For someone else to claim that they are some sort of expert and mislead people in this way is appalling.
I have recently had a child and made the decision to vaccinate and I would like to point out that no where in the literature I was provided were there claims that the vaccinations were 100% safe or 100% effective. In fact I was given quite honest advice about how to look for possible reactions and what to do. Expecting vaccines to be 100% safe and effective is like expecting every surgery, course of antibiotics etc. to be 100% effective and risk free. Do we expect that? No. We know, some are more effective than others, some people may have side effects. There are limitations to medical technology. So why would vaccines be any different?
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Because Meryl’s organisation presents her skewed perception of vaccination “dangers” as scientific evidence, when it is, in fact, pseudoscience cherry picked from the real evidence, and presented with a 90% dose of Meryl’s opinion.
The AVN site is one of the first that comes up on a Google search when you enter vaccination. It sounds legitimate because it is named the Australian Vaccination Network, when in fact it is completely anti-vaccination. Even intelligent people can be easily fooled by pretend science, if they have no background in science, legitimate research or evidence-based medicine themselves.
Trust the real experts in these fields, not a self proclaimed expert.
When an alternative view is a danger to community health, it is not just an alternative view, it is a public health threat.
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I think it’s more about how she’s being presented – as an expert in vaccination. If she was promoted as medical person with concerns I think we’d all be more comfortable with free speech (though still uncomfortable with the message being preached). It could easily be argued that the way she’s being put forth is providing not only an untrue perspective but possibly providing a subconscious bias to anyone listening to her. After all doctors are consistently in Australia’s top five most-trusted professions and the average Australia gives their words more consideration.
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“If she was promoted as medical person with concerns I think we’d all be more comfortable with free speech”
I know what you mean, but, she is not a “medical person”. Dorey is nothing. She has 20 years experience regurgitating anti-vaccination nonsense. She doesn’t understand immunology or epidemiology, but, she preaches to those that do with a hubris which can be shocking.
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You’re right. I didn’t realise her level of qualifications. I have admonished myself for not checking the facts.
And now I feel even more frustrated at her appearance being promoted in the way it is.
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She has no level of qualifications. Like, at all.
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Anthony, if Meryl were to be a “medical person” that would mean that she would have infinitely greater knowledge of physiology, epidemiology, immunology, and general medicine than she currently has.
She has zero education, training or experience (because googling does not count) in the topic that she continually promotes herself as being Australia’s leading expert.
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Meryl Dorey also derived – until very recently – financial benefit from the AVN’s charity status.
She is currently fighting to have that status reinstated.
Money talks.
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It does indeed. What are your thoughts then on GP’s being given financial incentives from the government for every child they vaccinate?
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Um, I believe that is called being paid for work they do.
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The problem is when a highly educated and qualified individual does speak out about vaccines saying they are dangerous etc, they are labelled as quacks or liars and worse, and everything possible is done to discredit them and their findings/research etc.
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Um. Read the thread. It will take a while, but you may learn something. Unless learning is not your thing.
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I’m still suspicious about vaccines myself even though they say they should be harmless and its better being vaccinated than not. I think its OK getting vaccines, but give vaccines one at a time over a long period. I don’t think little kids should get all your vaccines in one day like happened to me. I’m still suspicious. My mum thought she noticed a change in my personality on that day
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Didn’t take long for the AVN to get onto this one!
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Come on, ‘AVN getting on to this’? The person who just posted said that they actually support vacc, just on a different schedule. And that makes them AVN with all their beliefs etc?
The last time this issue came up it got really nasty. I know there are hardly any replies yet , but I am happy that so far they are staying pretty good (mostly!). Please don’t start painting everyone with the same brush again. Questioning what you have been told is not saying you disagree with an issue. It says you want more answers, before you go one way or the other. You might disagree with the last statement from the poster, but this poster has actually said that they support vacc, unlike the AVN, so obviously one has nothing to do with the other!
Play fairly.
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Exactly my point. The insults on this very forum, suggest its a crime to ask questions. It doesn’t matter if you are against it or not. When you have a parent talk to you about their child and the complications from vaccination and they beg you to think about it….. should we at least be able to question it? Having just had a mother go through the disgraceful health system with cancer, I tell you the more questions the better.
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“Too many, too soon” is just one of the many goal-post-shifting canards thrown out by the anti-vax lobby. It’s understable that someone might see the “argument” and jump into defence mode.
The real question, however, is why Ben would assume immunologists don’t know enough about vaccination.
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Ben,
There’s a term for when your personality changes after vaccinations. It’s ‘coincidence’.
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Could that be because you got a needle..
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My son has a change of personality straight after vaccination, to unhappy. But he reverted 5 minutes later.
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Correlation =/= causation
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Makes me feel sick to think that uneducated rubbish is being sprouted at a large festival. Believe whatever you like but don’t push it on others, there are vulnerable people out there that might just believe that bullshit! Makes me so sad….
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thanks for letting me know, i will email everyone today. this is terrible. the queensland government should act on this ASAP. this women is dangerous.
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Totally agree…anyone planning on attending the Woodford Folk Festival should do a complete Sandilands on this…
Let the organisers know that you no longer intend to attend the festival until Dorey is removed from the festival…
Also, contact all the major sponsors of the festival and tell them the same thing: http://woodfordfolkfestival.woodfordia.com/index.php?id=112
…especially Triple J….
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good idea JohnJames. i bet hack would be interested in this.
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Indeed, Hack were very interested. Unfortunately, they’ve finished for the christmas break. I spoke to their acting exec producer, though, and the story has been circulated to other journos. I’m sure a few more phone calls/emails will spark reaction
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I’m doing so now. First complaint submitted to the Qld Government site. next stop Moreton Bay Regional Council, the Festival *and then their other sponsors*.
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Here’s a link to the ‘contact us’ page for the local ABC station which is also listed as a sponsor.
http://www.abc.net.au/sunshine/contact/
I sent an email just now