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MerylDorey This festival allows a dangerous anti vaxxer to spread misinformation. Why?

AVN's Meryl Dorey

 

 

UPDATE: The Queensland Health Minister has released a statement regarding this issue. The full text can be found here.

UPDATE: News Editor Rick Morton just spoke to Festival Executive Director Bill Hauritz about the decision to bring Meryl Dorey into speak.

Q: Does the Festival feel it appropriate to give a platform to a woman who has been officially discredited as any type of vaccination expert?

Bill: Look, I’m not going to get into that. There are a lot of discredited artists and talkers and singers and songwriters at the Festival and we’re about giving a voice to a diverse range … something like 400 artists there.

Q: But surely if a singer/songwriter is discredited, that doesn’t pose a public health risk does it?

Bill: Who says it is dangerous? There are a lot of people out there who believe this whole vaccination thing is not an open and shut case. Is anybody willing to say that all vaccinations are 100% safe?

Q: I don’t think even doctors say that, Bill. Is Meryl billed as an expert for her talk?

Bill: I suppose she would regard herself as an expert, yes. Look, when this issue hit the floor yesterday I typed into Google ‘doctors against vaccinations’ and there are page and pages and pages of results of information. I wonder about the tactics of the science lobby.

Q: Why do you call it a lobby? That seems fairly indicative of your personal views don’t you think?

Bill: I didn’t mean to call it a lobby. I just get wary when people are trying to sell stuff on the Internet.

Q: I don’t think scientists necessarily want to sell anything?

Bill: Look, it doesn’t make a difference. We’ve already entered into contracts with Meryl Dorey and we cannot break those contracts now. We’re 10 days away from opening the gates to the festival. The damage is already done.

Bill Hauritz This festival allows a dangerous anti vaxxer to spread misinformation. Why?

Festival Director Bill Hauritz.

Q: Is Meryl Dorey being paid for her appearance?

Bill: I honestly haven’t seen the contracts. I’d say she isn’t.

Q: Can you understand the backlash you have received? You know it isn’t about diverse views. It’s about spruiking information that has been officially debunked. Do you understand the issue many have with Dorey is that she is not a statistician, a researcher, a scientist and has no level of expertise as found by the Health Care Complaints Commission which ordered her to be upfront about her anti-vaccination stance?

Bill: Everyone has a right to their opinion.

Q: But surely not to their own facts? Are you worried people will boycott the festival now?

Bill: Let them, they have every right to.

 

The Woodford Folk Festival sounds like a quaint, fringe music festival. It’s not. With more than 130,000 people attending the 2010/2011 event in Queensland it is one of the largest cultural events of its kind in Australia. Which makes it all the more troubling known anti-vaccine campaigner Meryl Dorey has been invited – again – to speak there. Mamamia finds it troubling because of this post we ran debunking the most common vaccination myths, the ones that Dorey and her misleadingly titled Australian Vaccination Network continue to willfully propagate. It’s one of the most popular posts we have ever run on the site. So while Dorey has been given a platform to speak, despite having been discredited by major health agencies, it is a platform paid for by major sponsors. Including the local council and Queensland Government. So, why? Peter Bowditch writes…..

In 2010, Meryl Dorey, once (and maybe still) President of the Australian Vaccination Network, appeared as a speaker at the Woodford Folk Festival in Queensland. I wondered at the time why a festival devoted to community spirit and enjoyment should provide a platform for someone to preach a philosophy that can only cause harm to children, and I wrote to the organisers with my concern.

I didn’t receive an answer, but Ms Dorey wasn’t pleased that I had written and in her usual ‘just missing the truth’ style she claimed that I had asked them not to let her speak. I had done nothing of the sort, just said that I didn’t think that what she would inevitably say was the sort of thing I would expect to hear at a folk festival. She can say what she likes where she lies as long as people are aware of her agenda.

She didn’t appear at the 2011 festival, but she is booked in to give two talks at the 2012 event in January. I suppose this means the festival organisers aren’t concerned about her message, and the presence of various other practitioners of weird science and ideas on the same stage just confirms this impression. I have no idea why anyone would associate folk music with the sort of things one would expect to see at a Mind Body Spirit Festival or even why there would be an overlap of audiences, but maybe things have changed since my Kings Cross troubadour days. Or, as someone once said, the answers are blowing in the wind.

What makes this Woodford Festival a little different is the range of event sponsors whom you would think would run away very quickly from any association with anyone opposing vaccination. And make no mistake, for all Ms Dorey’s claims that she is not opposed to vaccination and just wants it to be safe she has never once in the more than a decade I’ve been dealing with her ever allowed that any vaccine is either safe or beneficial. She is not opposed to vaccines provided that they are never given to any person of any age to protect against any disease.

She has described measles (the disease which has killed more children than any other in the history of the world) as “benign;” she suggested the slogan “Shaken Maybe Syndrome” as a way of implying that Shaken Baby Syndrome does not exist but is always damage caused by vaccines; she provided strong support to a man imprisoned in the US for the murder of a ten-week-old boy, her support being based on the idea that the dreadful injuries to the child had to be the effects of a vaccine, not the actions of a violent man; she is on record as an AIDS denier; she said on television that “whooping cough didn’t kill us thirty years ago and it’s not kill anybody today”. If she isn’t implacably opposed to vaccinations then she hides any other position well.

Screen shot 2011 12 12 at 9.54.12 AM 380x312 This festival allows a dangerous anti vaxxer to spread misinformation. Why?

The Festival called Dorey a 'leading expert in vaccination' in 2009.

In 2009 the NSW Health Care Complaints Commission took the unprecedented step of issuing a public warning about Ms Dorey and the AVN. This followed her refusal to agree to a request to display a notice on the AVN’s web site saying that the organisation did not give medical advice, that it was opposed to vaccination, and that parents should get advice about vaccination from a competent medical practitioner. Ms Dorey is currently taking the HCCC to court over the matter. She needs to do this because the NSW Office of Liquor Gaming and Racing has withdrawn the AVN’s charity status and banned them from recruiting new members or accepting donations. The OLG&R took the HCCC’s public warning into account when making its rulings.

But back to the sponsors of the Woodford Folk Festival. One significant sponsor is the local Moreton Bay Regional Council. The Council has quite clear policies supporting vaccination and other public health initiatives, and Ms Dorey’s message is diametrically opposed to these. In fact, if too many locals listen to her and believe what she says then the Council’s public health activities could be severely undermined.

Another sponsor is the local ABC radio station. I know for a fact that the ABC has been told about Ms Dorey and her activities, so it is doubly distressing to see public money contributing to giving her a platform to spread harmful misinformation. The Queensland Government is also a sponsor, and again public money is being spent to encourage ideas which are in direct contradiction to the vaccination programs and policies of a government.

I don’t want Ms Dorey silenced (to want that would be to follow the “principles” that she applies to any public forum that she controls, where the slightest dissent results in banning). I just want people to know that she is not a reliable authority on matters of public health and vaccination. She can say what she likes as long as others can point to her and say “Dangerous, uninformed, unscientific nonsense”.

If you doubt the terrible consequences of a lack of vaccination, take the time watch Mia’s heartbreaking interview with Toni and Dave McCaffrey whose daughter Dana died as a result of whooping cough. She lived in one of the least vaccinated areas in the country. The interview starts at 12:52.

If you are concerned by this turn of events, you can email the Woodford Folk Festival organisers on qff@woodfordfolkfestival.com or leave a message on their FB Wall here, email Moreton Bay Regional Council here or email the Queensland Government here.

Peter Bowditch has been around skepticism and rational thinking for many years. He writes for several skeptical and scientific publications and runs the web site at www.ratbags.com which features the weekly Millenium Project online magazine and Radio Ratbags podcast. In real life he is married with two daughters, lives in the Blue Mountains and pays the bills by being an IT consultant and TAFE teacher.

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1,842 Comments so far

  1. Dopnna Deland

    Fear is being generated from both sides of this debate and it gets in the way of rational discussion.

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    • snerd

      ‘Both sides’? You mean the ‘side’ that’s a self-contradicting echo chamber of crypt-conspiracy nonsense, and the ‘side’ pointing out that it is so?

      How much ‘fear’ can be generated from saying: ‘no, the evidence is against your position, and that you continue to hold it is just delusional’?

      False equivalence always bites you on the arse.

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    • Jane DJ

      There is no “both sides” the same way there are no both sides when it comes to drunk drivers. Who wants to hear a drunk driver’s side of the story?

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  2. Donna Deland

    What you have published above is of such poor quality I’m just gobsmacked that you’ve allowed it Mia. It’s hate speech…and it generates a whole lot more of the same. Peter Bowditch has a right to his opinions…yes…but there is nothing rational or scientific about the way he has expressed them here despite the fact that he claims these principles guide his thinking.

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    • Rick Morton

      ‘Hate’ speech? Wow. Can you point to the hate? Disagreeing with someone’s point of view isn’t hate speech.

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    • Mia

      Donna, I do believe you’ve confused ‘hate speech’ with facts. Yes, this debate is passionate. That’s because many of us in the community are outraged by the work of the AVN and their constant aggressive attempts to misinform and frighten people into making potentially deadly choices about not vaccinating their kids.

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    • adamvanlangenberg

      Actually, there is everything rational and scientific about the way he has expressed himself.

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    • lucindainthesky

      Which bit is irrational or unscientific Donna?

      But you are right, there is hate in there somewhere.

      I’m fairly certain Pete hates the idea of watching babies turn blue from lack of oxygen when they catch whooping cough, and I’m sure he hates the thought of Polio coming back and crippling thousands of Australians, and I’m sure he hates the idea of tiny little baby sized coffins being carried to an early grave.

      I’m pretty sure any rational person would stand by him united in the same hate.

      Thanks for your pointless contribution :-)

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    • snerd

      Ah, drive-by pearl-clutchers. Always fun.

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    • peterbowditch

      I haven’t been accused of hate speech for a while. It’s good to see the old traditions revived.

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  3. katehunter

    The Courier Mail is running the story. There is an online poll asking people to vote as to whether Meryl should be allowed to speak at Woodford http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/anti-vaccine-activist-needles-opponents/story-e6freon6-1226222416563

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    • snerd

      That’s an awful poll. The issue isn’t so much being allowed to speak or not; it’s that she’s being uncritically promoted as a ‘vaccine expert’. The fact that she was invited to speak, in the face of all good evidence, also speaks to the probity or otherwise of festival management.

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      • jasonbrown

        You’d think journalists of all people would have some idea of what “free speech” means, and why this isn’t an issue of free speech or censorship.

        But you’d be wrong – though some notable exceptions apply

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        • Mia

          The free speech argument is bollocks. Especially when it poses a health risk.

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          • bowerbird

            Its worse than bollocks, its dangerous. That she can claim to be being silenced or suppressed, gives her a strange kind of credibility in the eyes of people who regard themselves as ‘alternative’. That’s why I think its a mistake to try and prevent her from speaking – but she absolutely should have to face debate and questions from people who know what they’re talking about. That way the falsehoods get exposed, which is, of course, why she is always avoiding it.

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            • Andy

              I agree but what this debate has done is led to high-profile people (minister, ABC Drum) using words like nonsense, crazy, nutter and fraud – publicly.

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        • Andy

          “Those attacks have included death threats”

          Wasn’t it Ms Dorey who linked to an article by a Dr Sircus calling for people to be lined up against the wall and shot?

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          • snerd

            I’m sure the coppers would be very interested in death threats … UNLESS THEY’RE IN ON THE CONSPIRACY TOO.

            My god! Wheels within wheels! We’re in too deep, my friends! Let us all live in trailers in the woods, ranting about the end times! Save us Meryl!

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    • Andy

      @Kate,

      Just saw your input at AVN FB page. Nice try but you pushed the boundaries of what’s allowed there. Despite all their calls for free speech and open debate, you were likely one post away fro being banned when you so openly question MD’s qualifications and question the big pharma conspiracy.

      While it’s true the word “expet” does not appear in this year’s promo – it does say her information is necessary for parents to hear. If she’s not an expert in the field, why would it be necessary for anyone to listen to her.

      “Her information is sourced from medical data and is necessary for anyone who has a family or is thinking about being vaccinated.”

      The implication in the promo, that her information is sourced from the medical data” material, is clear. What they don’t tell you is that she sources the words the medical literature but often rearranges them to tell a very different story to what the researchers found. Her repeated “parts per million” gaffe being just one glaring example.

      As I see it, she’s being put forward as an expert.

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  4. Lucas

    I live in a hot-bed of vaccine misinformation and low vaccination rates. Most of the objectors are intelligent, well educated people who’ve fallen prey to the sheer volume of anti-vax rhetoric on the internet, which drowns out the freely available real information. Medicine of any type has risks and side effects, but the case for vaccinations is clear – the benefits far outweigh the terrible risks of allowing devistating childhood diseases to creep back into our lives.

    I support free speech. I don’t support granting a platform for spreading dangerous misinformation which is unsupported by evidence – that’s just dumb.

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    • Biff

      No one knows the true statistics for vaccine reactions or vaccine effectiveness. The organisations set up to collect these facts, such as the CDC, consistently refuse to do so. VAERS admits only between 1- 10% of reactions are ever reported. Vaccine injuries are rarely compensated as it is nearly impossible to prove under the weight of the denial. Doctors are afraid to report them because of the potential loss of their careers.

      How can anyone say vaccines are safe or effective unless we know these things? It’s a waste of breath talking about benefits and risks unless we have the facts. We don’t.

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      • Jane DJ

        There are plenty of facts supporting the safety and effectiveness of vaccines, its just that the anti vaxxers refuse to recognise them.

        They think they know better than immunologists.

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      • peterbowditch

        As of right now there are 9,898 papers indexed in PubMed for the search term “vaccine safety” and 17,218 for “vaccine efficacy”. These things are very well researched.

        VAERS is a joke, as anybody can report anything they like to it as a vaccine reaction. That is how the death of a 73-year-old man was reported as a reaction to the HPV vaccine. Did you hear the story about Dr Jim Laidler, who reported that a vaccine caused him to turn into the Incredible Hulk? It was accepted by VAERS.

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        • jasonbrown

          HULK NO LIKE VACCINES! HULK SMASH!

          Seriously, that’s one of my favourite stories.

          The AVN’s “vaccine reaction database” contains my horrifying vaccine reaction. I got travel vaccinations for a trip to India, and the next day I STUBBED MY TOE ON THE BEDFRAME. Damn you, vaccines!!!

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  5. chrysstevenson

    My friend Shelley Stocken @Shellity says she doesn’t mind if Meryl appears at the festival as long as the organizers introduce Meryl in rhyme, as follows:

    Ladies and gentlemen, girls and boys, please welcome to the stage,
    The best-known anti-vaccination fibber of our age.
    A practitioner of obfuscation, fear and superstition,
    Who’s been called out by the New South Wales Health Care Complaints Commission,
    And the AMA, the ABC, OLGR and more.
    She sells non-existent magazine subscriptions in her store.
    Folks, the woman who’s about to speak to you in this pavilion
    Doesn’t know what “research” means, nor “my mistake” nor “parts per billion”.
    She doesn’t know ‘morbidity’ from ‘people being dead’;
    And her only real credential is the brain inside her head;
    A brain that pleads the Fifth when large donations disappear;
    And that thinks “medical journal” means the same as “New Idea”
    One that wanes when faced with facts, but faced with Natural News it waxes;
    A brain that thinks that homeopathy is prophylaxis.
    She’s an expert in the field of Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc;
    You can bet the farm that everything she says today’s a crock.
    It’s my pleasure to present, in all her dazed, downtrodden glory,
    The queen of the conspiracy – I give you Meryl Dorey.

    http://shellity.blogspot.com/2011/12/introducing.html

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    • lucindainthesky

      hehehe love it!!!

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    • danielsinnott

      What more can be said? *GOLD*

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    • Andy

      I struggle to write succinctly about this issue (truth be known, I struggle to write succinctly about anything). Shelley does it in rhyme! And it makes sense. And it covers just about the entire gamut of issues discussed in this comment thread.

      I mean, you just have to admire talent like that.

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  6. Belle

    I really can not understand the logic of the big pharma conspiracy theories.

    1. If “big pharma” was just after money, why would they bother putting expensive “toxins” in vaccines (expensive compared to say…water)?
    2. If they put toxins into vaccines to intentionally cause harm, why don’t they intentionally cause diseases that they can sell big expensive treatments for…as opposed to autism, which pharmaceutical companies have no treatment for?
    3. If “big pharma” has so much control over medical/scientific/government/public opinion, surely they could just make up any old treatment and say they’re treating autism? Why would they possibly admit they have no treatment for it, if they’re only after money?

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    • Tripitaka

      Yes, and it could be argued that a lot of “natural” therapies are actually the ones that are lying and basically conning people out of their money, but nobody suggests a conspiracy, as they seem so nice and wholesome.

      (Not saying that people can’t benefit from natural therapies, just that there is often no scientific evidence to back them up.)

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      • Belle

        I know I couldn’t help noticing the irony of suggesting that bigpharma could put purely water in vaccines and pretend it is doing something. Sounds familiar…to um…..whatsit…..um, oh Yeah!…Homeopaths!

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    • Andy

      But I think you have to remember that Big Pharma are basically stupid – after all, they’re run by a bunch of goannas or something (according to a link or two I followed from Meryl Dorey’s blog).

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    • Free

      Exactly. Whenever the anti-vaxxers start talking about ‘Big Pharma’ I’m always reminded of this satirical piece by The Onion:
      http://www.theonion.com/articles/powerful-rest-and-fluids-industry-influencing-doct,2634/

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    • snerd

      Behold, the great redeemer of all those afflicted with depression, St Johns Wort! Yes, you can indeed strike a mighty blow against Big Pharma by using all-natural (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_John%27s_wort#Invasive_species) random quantities of hyperforin (http://www.chemspider.com/16736597)!

      Natural isn’t Natural.

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  7. Anonymous

    i have a little tale of a anti vaxer that went to the gp and refused the MC vax
    well well well two weeks latter child contracts MC ( lucky child survived) then anti vaxer turned around and tried to sue GP for not picking it up on first visit when child only had fever and runny nose.no rash.is a gp going to insist on a lumber puncture on every child with a fever and runny nose.

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  8. Timothy Morton

    The AVN is a dangerous organisation which mistakes the right to hold a point of view with a right to a stage and a microphone. The rank hypocrisy of an organisation such as this is plain to anyone who looks.

    They demand to be included in discussions about vaccination yet ban anyone who has the hide to differ from their point of view.

    They demand evidence for the scientific position and refuse to provide evidence for their conspiracy-theory position.

    They claim to be persecuted and yet persecute and harass and insult people who speak out against them – including the McCafferys.

    They demand people be honest and transparent about who they are when they make comments and yet knowingly approve of supporters creating false names and profiles to bolster their weak and ever weakening case.

    Now hypocrisy is not a reason to discredit a case or a point of view (that is known as the tu quoque fallacy) but since I do not have a ‘case’ to argue against I will just point out their poor track record.

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    • danielsinnott

      I would no sooner have Meryl to ‘provide balance’ at a vaccination talk than I would have someone debate a flat earth theory at a geology conference – the science is *that* good!

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    • derekmccue

      Just got my 3 votes

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    • derekmccue

      It really irks me that anti vaccinationists feel entitled to be paid for not doing something. Based on their logic I should be entitled to a baby bonus even though I don’t have a baby.

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      • Anonymous

        It costs a family that doesn’t vaccinate the same as those who do… this discussion point is moot.

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        • Kris2040

          Anti vax people can claim the Maternity Immunisation Allowance and receive it for a “Conscientious Objection”. So they are receiving a payment for not doing what the payment is for.

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          • accidie

            Analogous to a conscientious objector claiming a military pension, only worse. Conscientious objectors were opposed to harming others, unlike anti-vaccers. You got my three votes, too.

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            • Andy

              Or claiming a tax deduction for charitable donations without ever donating to charity.

              Or claiming the Baby Bonus without the messy nonsense involved in actually having a baby.

              The loophole is bizarre but obviously carries some political benefit.

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    • kateinlondon

      done. nice work.

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  9. M

    Just a few interesting facts about the good Dr Andrew Wakefield who seems to have started the anti vax movement:
    - in 1998 a study is published on autism/ polio vaccine link- vaccination rates plummet 10-30%
    - between 1999 and 2009 measles and mumps return to USA, uk, Canadian and Australian populations. – 1200 deaths.
    - 2004 the methods and results of the study we’re questioned – dr Wakefield was originally paid $500 000 by an anti vax lobby, the experiment only contained 12 subjects, 9 of which had exhibited symptoms pre vaccination, tissue samples were taken without consent and children were subject to lumbar punctures, colonoscopies etc without patient, parental or ethical consent. The data records of hospital for the 12 subjects didn’t match either and to top it all off 2 yrs prior to publication dr Wakefield accepted £435 000 from a lawyer hoping to sue the pharmaceutical company who make MMR. What’s even more interesting is that Dr Wakefield attempted to lodge a patent for a rival vaccine… How interesting.
    In 2010 the good doctor was erased from the UK medical register but this year he’s been on a speaking tour – and doesn’t have to worry about professional conduct anymore because he’s no longer a flopping doctor. Meanwhile 1200 people are dead.

    That being said I have a family member who works at a large doctors clinic and not a single doctor there opted for the swine flu vaccine last year because they didn’t believe it was researched enough… But you know what I caught whooping cough as a kid- I was vaccinated but it was a pretty severe case. Without the vaccine it is very likely I would have died.

    Since I started my science degree I have been taught that science doesn’t prove anything – its just very good at disproving previous theories. Once upon a time we thought the earth was flat- but what I’m saying is until someone can show that vaccines aren’t safe and back it up with peer reviewed articles, years of research etc I’m going to remain pro jab. Lives are at stake.

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    • Anonymous

      well said

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    • Biff

      “…what I’m saying is until someone can show that vaccines aren’t safe and back it up with peer reviewed articles, years of research etc I’m going to remain pro jab.”

      It’s almost impossible for anyone to get articles peer reviewed and published in medical journals unless they are pro vaccine. Not because they aren’t well researched or properly conducted, but because the medical establishment finds them too controversial and doesn’t want another Wakefield experience. (That’s if anyone can get funding for these studies in the first place.) Doctors and scientists do not have free speech in the area of vaccination, so the public does not get to hear about studies that may prove vaccines are unsafe.

      Perhaps we should be asking why.

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  10. derekmccue

    Let us not forget that Ms Dorey is also aligning herself with the Scientologists by promoting their beliefs on Psychiatry and by selling their products.

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  11. kenwood

    Now might be a good time to mention that Meryl Dorey is also an AIDS denialist, see http://reasonablehank.com/2011/12/05/the-avns-little-shop-of-horrors/ for more information.

    Why? A cynic would say it’s another form of potentially fatal misinformation she can spread in the community and increase her body count…

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    • danielsinnott

      And has referenced conspiracy theories about vaccinations as a tool to introduce tiny microchips into our bodies as a form of min control … yep, she’s a nutbag!

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  12. Jo

    When I was pregnant I went into earth mother phase and wanted to do everything natural eg drug free birth, breastfeeding etc. I hadn’t considered the vaccination issue until I heard about a friend of a friend who had an autistic child which she attributed to vaccinations. So I googled it and came across the AVN website which a lot of expert info about the dangers of vaccination. After much reading I was convinced I would not vaccinate our child since this website with it’s official sounding name obviously has all the correct facts. I am so glad my decision was questioned by our GP as she presented me with overwhelminginfo that contradicted just about every ‘fact’ the AVN stated. I felt stupid and duped, and worse still it made me question my ability to be a good mother as I had been so easily swayed by the AVN to the detriment of my child.unfortunately there are many people like me who are unaware of the vac issue and do their own research – and end up making the dangerous decision not to vaccinate based on AVN misinformation. I am furious at them and so grateful I changed my mind.

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    • linda

      Jo, great story, thanks for sharing it.
      Don’t feel stupid because in the end you weren’t duped. You actually listened to the expert medical advice and realised it was sound and the AVN’s was dangerously wrong. So many people close their ears to the real experts after hearing AVN’s message, if only more of them had as rational an approach to research and advice as you clearly did.

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    • Andy

      I sympathise with parents who swallow the AVN koolaid (that’s not intended as an insult). We can’t all be doctors and scientists (I’m neither) and we can’t all be expected to magically understand complex arguments for and against complex scientific issues (I don’t).

      The problem with the vaccine “debate” isn’t so much that there are people arguing against vaccination but that so many of the most-vocal are completely unqualified to speak on it and seem to have no qualms about spouting conspiratorial nonsense in an effort to bolster their arguments.

      If there was an actual doctor speaking against vaccination at Woodford, I’m not sure my opposition would be so strong. But Meryl Dorey has no qualifications in this or, to my knowledge, any related area – and demonstrates a sad lack of ability to correctly interpret even simple data (and that’s an area where I can challenge her because, quite frankly, her errors are in high-school-level maths).

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      • derekmccue

        I disagree you can blame the people who swallow the line of the AVN and anti vaxxers. The only way to come out believing that there is a debate on vaccine safety, or to believe that not vaccinating is the right decision, is to believe that the unscientific views of naturopaths, chiropractors, homeopaths and other random peddlers of ignorance are equivelant evidence to the science that proves vaccination works. The only way to side with the anti vaxxers is to view the world through a state of such intoxicated relativism that a scientist and a crank are given equal standing.

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        • Andy

          While I agree in principle, I think we expect too much when we assume lay people who take no active interest in pseudoscience and scepticism should just know that those things are not legitimate medicine.

          TV and newspapers tell us, regularly, that naturopaths are a legitimate source of health advice. Chiropractors are allowed to call themselves “doctor”. There are even university courses in these and other quack modalities.

          I can understand that, to some people who don’t think sceptically about almost everything, these things must appear legitimate, or surely the government would shut them down, wouldn’t it?

          How many times have you seen “but it’s approved by the TGA?” as a defence for using a product that is clearly utter nonsense? Of course, some of us know that no such approval mechanism exists and that the TGA are essentially useless and do almost nothing to shut down even the most-egregious examples of “medicinal” fraud – but not everyone knows this.

          The main area where I question the conclusions of people who take the side opposed to vaccination is how on earth they concluded that governments of all persuasions, all over the world, are wrong on this issue and that, after a few week’s reading, they are now better informed than immunologists and doctors.

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    • danielsinnott

      Excellent work Jo – it’s easy to be bushwacked by the AVN loons when you are at a very emotional time of your life, kudos for making sure you did your research and making the correct decision.

      I hate the AVN and what it stands for, I hate the Anti Vaxxer spruikers like Meryl that knowingly lie and target impressionable people – but it’s hard to hate those that are taken in by the lies, I know they are doing what they think is right, but just don’t have the intelligence or the drive to seek out the truth.

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  13. Loz

    I commented on here earlier as a Mother.. Not as an expert. Going from what I know.. Some people were kind enough to offer genuine advice. Others were downright rude. Certainly the last time I leave a comment on this site. I am appalled by the rudeness of people on here. Say what you like on this comment, because I certainly won’t be reading it.

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    • Andy

      I’ll accept your judgement and assume that I am among the “rude” responders. I did edit my comment almost immediately in view of further comments from you. My initial reaction was in direct response to your bold statement that there “is no proof either way” about vaccination. I apologise for my response if that is not exactly what you meant.

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  14. openmind

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5936718990962540374#

    the origin of aids and the polio vaccine mmmmm

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    • peterbowditch

      That perfectly illustrates the problem. Nobody is saying that people can’t express an opinion, even something as insane as what is in that video. Crazy people say crazy things all the time, but we shouldn’t be giving crazy people speaking opportunities where what they say might be taken as factual, particularly when what they say is a danger to public health.

      Thanks for posting the link to the video. Any sane person seeing this will immediately see that anti-vaccination liars will stop at nothing in pushing their dangerous agenda. Better evidence of the madness of the anti-vaccination campaign would be hard to find (although I have seen it).

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  15. Melissa

    Why are you all so afraid of a bit of anti-vaccination opinion. The dangers of vaccination are hidden in plain sight, in peer reviewed journals. Nobody with any credibility claims that they are 100% safe, and the diseases they supposedly protect against are very treatable these days. As a paramedic I transported a vaccine reaction just yesterday (Guillian Barre from the flu vaccine)… so who are you guys to say that a parent hasn’t the right to decide which risks they are more comfortable with? And don’t bother trying to tell me that I haven’t done my research. I have a huge library of info, access to online medical journals, and was a pro-vaxxer until I did my reading. I have sat down with several Drs with my printed findings, and discussed, discussed, discussed (with my husband, also a paramedic) our findings before making the decision not to vaccinate our children. And, the Drs we spoke to were not aware of the research we found until we gave it to them. They hadn’t looked for it!

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    • katehunter

      The problem is that Meryl Dorey presents her opinion as fact. Of course to vaccinate or no is your decision to make but it does affect the wider community. I have no issue with MD presenting at Woodford – it’s more her billing as an expert and an authority on the autism and the MMR vaccine.

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    • Andy

      No one claims vaccines are 100% safe.

      Meryl Dorey, however, has uncritically and unapologetically linked to articles in which it is claimed that the Illuminati (allegedly a race of shape-shifting reptilian overlords) are using vaccination as a means to implant mind-control chips with a view to perpetrating genocide.

      Perhaps you should ask your doctors if they’re aware of that? In the meantime, is this someone you feel should be billed as a vaccine expert in a public speaking role?

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      • chrysstevenson

        Vaccination information kits are readily available and given to parents by GPs. They explain fully the risks and benefits of vaccinations. Nothing is being hidden from parents.

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        • Anonymous

          OMG…. there is NO information in those! lol

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          • RetroPastiche

            Yep, no information at all.

            Give.me.a.break.

            There is *no* conspiracy at all. The government is incredibly upfront about what’s going on. I decided to have a quick look at the information for diptheria. The immunise australia website has oodles of information, including this page:

            http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/Handbook-diphtheria

            You will note at the top of the page it clearly states that the electronic edition is updated regularly.

            Yep, the government (or reptilian overlords) really *don’t* want you to know what’s going on.

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          • snerd

            What? They’re veritable tomes. Where do people get this idea?

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    • seanhegarty

      I don’t think anyone is afraid of any opinion. You are entitled to an opinion, as is Ms Dorey. What she is not entitled to do is peddle her lies as truth and pose as an “expert”.

      Any serious reaction to a vaccine is regrettable, but they are extremely rare – and far less common than serious repercussions from contracting the disease.

      “These diseases are very treatable these days” – of course, we are no longer in the dark ages; but children all over the world are dying because they are not as “treatable” as you would have us believe. I just hope that if your unvaccinated child contracts one of the vaccine preventable diseases that they are one of the lucky ones. But I also hope that you can live with the consequences of your child possibly passing that disease on to another child who may not be so lucky.

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      • Healthy Skepticism

        A vaccinated child/adult can also contract and/or pass on a preventable disease to another person. Should they feel no consequences just because they were vaccinated?

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        • lucindainthesky

          No they shouldn’t because the wider community understands that vaccines are not 100% effective 100% of the time. But at least the parents of those children have done what they can to prevent the spreading of these diseases. Parents who willingly make the decision to not vaccinate are knowingly increasing the risks that their children could contract and spread the diseases. They are KNOWINGLY putting others lives at risk.

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          • seanhegarty

            Spot on lucinda!

            Of course, as a responsible parent I would also quarantine my immunised child (or myself), not actively encourage the sharing of the “natural” disease as some (not all I admit) anti-vaxx parents do.

            If I or my progeny were responsible for someone else catching the disease I would feel sad about that, but not guilty; because I had done all I humanly could to prevent it happening. The odds are that it would likely be an unvaccinated person, and if it was a child then the parents would be entirely to blame because of their choices.

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        • Andy

          “A vaccinated child/adult can also contract and/or pass on a preventable disease to another person. Should they feel no consequences just because they were vaccinated?”

          Of course not. They probably will anyway if it’s shown that they were the carrier – but they’ve done all they could reasonably do to not pose that risk.

          It’s the difference between speeding past a school and killing a kid or driving at the specified limit and having a kid step right out on front of you and end up dead. You’re still going to feel awful but you were acting responsibly when you obeyed the set limit. There was nothing more you could reasonably do.

          The speeder has only guilt – maybe because they “did some research” that proved to them that speeding wasn’t an issue they need be concerned about.

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    • DS

      Melissa

      you do have the right to decide which risks you’re more comfortable with. But the decision not to vaccinate should come with an understanding and recognition that in doing so you have placed your individual rights above all others and are in fact getting a “free ride” from others who have vaccinated. The diminished risk of your unvaccinated child getting a serious infection is a direct result of every one else in our society who has vaccinated.

      I wonder if you would be so brave to make that same decision if you were living in a different part of the world?

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      • Biff

        DS, I assume you are referring to herd immunity. As vaccine manufacturers themselves claim immunity from their vaccines only last a few years, and as adults most of us have not kept up with our jabs for whooping cough, diphtheria etc, the vast majority of the population has no vaccine induced immunity to these diseases. So where does herd immunity come from?

        The theory originally came from research done into measles cases well before the vaccine was available. It has never worked for vaccinated individuals, only those who have had the disease.

        Vaccine induced herd immunity is a myth, yet it is used to make wavering parents vaccinate out of guilt.

        If you are happy to vaccinate your children and take the risk then that’s fine. My job as a parent is to protect my children from unnecessary risk when they are little. If I could be convinced vaccines are safe and effective I would vaccinate. In 16 years I haven’t been. And that was before anyone had heard of Andrew Wakefield.

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        • Andy

          While I doubt your data (since you’ve yet to show you have a thorough grasp of the issue) I must ask if you refuse to put petrol in your car because, no matter how often you do it, you still have to do it again?

          Also, do you eat? I mean, it doesn’t stave off hunger permanently.

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    • Andy

      “so who are you guys to say that a parent hasn’t the right to decide which risks they are more comfortable with?”

      I’m not sure that most people have said that right isn’t, or shouldn’t be, available (clearly it currently is available and even sponsored by the federal government).

      But can I ask – as a paramedic have you ever seen anyone injured by a seat belt or any other device designed, supposedly, to protect us (failed brakes, punctured tyres, air bags, parachutes?). If so, would you publicly support a movement that spoke out against all these things and, more importantly, would you still support them if they spoke out using nonsense data and bizarre conspiracy theories?

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    • Healthy Skepticism

      I question MD’s attendance at a music festival. She isn’t an expert and if they want to present the vaccination debate they should have a speaker from both sides who are qualified to speak on the subject (and yes there are some scientists and doctors who don’t agree with vaccination). As you did your own research, you would agree that facts, not opinion, are paramount.

      I’m not pro or anti vaccination. I was fortunate enough to have a GP who actually asked me when pregnant with my first child, whether or not I was going to vaccinate her. I hadn’t even thought about not vaccinating. He practices in an affluent area where increasing numbers had chosen either not to vaccinate or to delay it. He encouraged me to do my own research and pointed me in several directions (the AVN was not one of them). Once I started to read I realised how contentious the area actually was, so I enlisted the help of a family friend who is a PhD in Epidemiology to help me review some of the research I was finding. He found other research and we spent many months reading through and discussing the research (and the lack of research in many areas) with each other; his friend who is a medical researcher; and my GP.

      In the end, my husband and I decided together with our doctor to delay vaccination and only give certain ones. When my epidemiologist’s wife got pregnant, they took our findings to their GP, who basically had no clue what they were talking about, gave them her standard spiel on vaccinations and was not interested in looking at the research they had brought with them. So, they changed to my GP.

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      • lucindainthesky

        What did you find? I’m actually interested to know what studies you uncovered because I have never seen any that seem to conclude that the risks outweigh the benefits. It certainly seems like you have researched thoroughly – maybe you have information that might enlighten us, particularly since your epidemiologist was swayed as well.

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      • Ally

        “In the end, my husband and I decided together with our doctor to delay vaccination and only give certain ones.”

        Can I ask which vaccines you have elected to give? The reason I ask is that I have tried to find a way to split vaccines in the current schedule and have found that it is pretty much impossible in Australia.

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      • kateinlondon

        Hi there – I was just wondering if you could share some links or information about the research that eventually convinced you to delay/avoid certain vaccinations? Cheers.

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    • Leon

      Melissa the paramedic. would you be happy with an anti-seatbelt spokesperson? How about someone who saw a causal relationship between exploding air-bags and spinal injuries? Maybe we should reduce the cost of car insurance by eliminating crumple zones?

      Also, could you please explain how whooping cough is “very treatable”? I understand from every doctor I’ve seen speak on the topic that it can be fatal, even with the best medical intervention. What do you know that they don’t?

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    • Tabs

      Hi Melissa,

      I’m first interested to know how it is that you transported a vaccine reaction, as I thought paramedics transported humans, and I’m not sure how it is that one would logistically transport a vaccine reaction.

      Secondly, assuming that you did in fact transport a human yesterday (and were just de-humanising them by calling them a ‘vaccine reaction’), I would like to know how it is that you know that they developed GBS due to the flu vaccine? Are you also a doctor that investigates and diagnoses patients in addition to apparently being a paramedic?

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      • Andy

        How easy is it and how long does it take to confirm a GBS diagnosis?

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        • Tabs

          Andy, not sure if you are asking me that or adding to the questions I have asked Melissa.

          I’m not a doctor so in terms of ease or length of time in a diagnosis of GBS, I wouldn’t know 100% sure. However, as a RN who has cared for patients with GBS, I am aware that diagnosis involves a lumbar puncture- of which I have never heard of being conducted by paramedics and also of which takes time to test and receive result of.
          In addition there is other criteria in the diagnosis, majority of which could not be done in ‘the field’ when the focus should be to keep the patient stable and transport them to the nearest appropriate hospital.

          not sure if you understood the tone I was using in my first post, or if i’m in fact misunderstanding yours…

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          • Melissa

            I never stated that I diagnosed the patient, or that it was the first time that the patient has received care for this condition. The patient was pre-diagnosed at a hospital and I was merely transporting from one institution to another.

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            • Andy

              Okay, that wasn’t clear from your earlier comment.

              Can I repeat my earlier question (if you’ve answered it elsewhere feel free to ignore it here)…

              …can I ask – as a paramedic have you ever seen anyone injured by a seat belt or any other device designed, supposedly, to protect us (failed brakes, punctured tyres, air bags, parachutes?). If so, would you publicly support a movement that spoke out against all these things and, more importantly, would you still support them if they spoke out using nonsense data and bizarre conspiracy theories?

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      • eternally

        I too am suspicious of this story. GBS is certainly not a back of the ambulance diagnosis. It may be triggered by the flu vaccine in some cases (but more often follows an actual infection rather than vaccination, or has no clear trigger).
        To give the benefit of the doubt, perhaps the person already had a diagnosis of GBS made during a previous hospital admission, and happened to be going back to hospital with something else, like they fell over & broke their arm?
        Bit suss.

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      • Melissa

        And I am sorry that referring to my patient by their condition offends you. Yes, I do tend to think of my patients (after treating them, not during) in terms of their conditions. This is my way of being able to switch off when I have finished work so that I don’t take it home with me. I have been doing my job for 15 years, and dealt with a few tragedies early on that taught me that I need to be able to distance myself from my job so that I am not stressed at home. I don’t have ongoing relationships with my patients. My dealings with them are short term, and often acute. Sometimes they remind me of my family members, friends, children, and sometimes they are very sick. Occassionally they even die in my presence.

        I care about them. But I used to care too much and take those tragedies home with me. I had to find a way to separate them from my home life and this is how I do it.

        It is not out of disrespect for my patients. It is so I can continue to serve them.

        And, while I am at work, I follow and promote company health care.

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        • Tabs

          except that the patient’s condition was not ‘vaccine reaction’. Their condition was/is GBS.

          The issue that you feel the need to de-humanise the patients after treating them in order to cope, is an issue that in all seriousness I truly think you should consider seeing a counsellor to discuss. I have seen this same issue in others over the years, and it generally does not end well for that person’s mental health.
          Sometimes the ways we ‘learn’ to cope with all of the horrible things we may see as health professionals, is not actually healthy for us in the long run.

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          • Ally

            Tabs, are you denying that GBS can be a reaction to the flu vaccine? Because, it’s listed right here as a rare, but very real and serious side effect in the fluvax leaflet – http://info.anu.edu.au/hr/assets/OHS/staff-wellbeing/Customer-Medical-Information-2011-Fluvax.pdf

            P.S your apparent “concern” for Melissa’s wellbeing is extremely patronising.

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            • Tabs

              Please point out where I denied that it is has been noted to be a potential reaction post flu vaccine (although if you actually do some proper research you will find that it’s still considered a theoretical risk)

              and your opinion that my ‘apparent’ concern is patronising isn’t something that is relevant or anything that I actually care about.

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    • Sian Morton

      Melissa, I have concerns about a number of the unsupported claims you make in your post.

      On what do you base your opinion that the Guillain Barre Syndrome was caused by the flu vaccine?

      Please share the information that convinced you and your husband not to vaccinate and apparently so impressed your doctors. You may well find that your medical colleagues were too polite or time poor to bother pointing out the flaws in your literature.

      You may be disappointed to hear that many of your health professional colleagues are likely to be rolling their eyes and sighing behind your back.

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    • petertierney

      Melissa. I have real concerns about your breach of patient confidentiality. Can you please tell us precisely where you work, so that the station manager can be informed that you are discussing a patient in a public forum, and that you are diagnosing this patient as having had a vaccine reaction, based on your membership of the AVN Facebook page and the beliefs held therein.

      Maybe you should
      1. Re-read the NSW Health Code of Conduct.
      2. Tell us how you diagnose GBS, in the back of an ambulance.
      3. Resign.

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      • Melissa

        Talk about jumping to conclusions… when did I state that I diagnosed the patient? The patient was not diagnosed by me, it was part of their medical records.
        Also, it is not a breach of patient confidentiality unless the patient is identifiable by the information I have provided. As you have admitted, you don’t know where I work. Even if you did know where I work, my shift yesterday was very busy and you would have a number of patients to choose from. Even then, you would have to already know the patient’s history to have any idea who they were.
        And, if you already know the actual patient, and the history, the only new piece of information you have is that I transported them.

        I am fully aware of patient confidentiality, and that a paramedic’s “provisional diagnosis” is not given any credence, so your opinion that I should quit is most likely based on your emotive response to my opinion rather than any credibility to your content.

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    • lucindainthesky

      “the diseases they supposedly protect against are very treatable these days.”

      Which ones?

      Tell that to the McCaffreys, who watched their daughter die from Whooping Cough.

      Tell that to the people who have watched family members die and have serious complications from Polio.

      Measles.

      Mumps.

      Smallpox.

      Cholera.

      Yellow Fever.

      Imagine if you travelled to Sudan and you were offered a vaccination for the Ebola virus (which they are now on the way to successfully formulating)… would you still be blase? The Ebola virus has one of the highest mortality rates of any disease, sometimes up to 90% in some outbreaks.

      Not all diseases are easily treated – if they were they wouldn’t spend billions of dollars researching vaccinations. Think about it.

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    • Sarah

      Because anti-vaccination opinion is a collection of myths and obfuscations that can fool innocent people such as yourself into putting their children at risk by avoiding vaccinations.

      The *real* risks of vaccination are well known, and they do exist. Spreading misinformation, whether about vaccinations or anything else, is always a bad thing.

      That doesn’t mean that those who spread misinformation are bad people, most of them do it genuinely and honestly because they believe in the misinformation. But that doesn’t detract from the harm it can do – it can even add to it, as they are more convincing when convinced, and cannot be unmasked as having a hidden motive. (Like Andrew Wakefield who was in the pay of large companies)

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    • Rachel

      Melissa, how refreshing to find a comment I can relate to. I, too, did my research before deciding to vaccinate my son when he was 2 months old. Little did I know he had a compromised immune system, and following the vaccination broke out in a red raw rash all over his body, which turned out to be eczema. I wouldn’t dare say the vaccination caused the eczema – as far as I know there is no evidence-based research to support such a claim – however, it certainly triggered it. My aunt also witnessed her granddaughter have an extreme reaction (she went limp and had to be rushed to hospital) to her shots when she was 1. It’s these personal experiences that can often inform a person’s decision on whether or not to vaccinate, rather than the evidence, and yet they are never spoken about in the discussion. When you witness a child (your child) have a bad reaction to something, you don’t go and subject them to it again, regardless of what the evidence says. It runs against the very grain of your instincts as a mother to protect.

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  16. derekmccue

    The argument about whether to vaccinate or not is wrong. The AVN argues that parents should have the right to decide what is in the best interests of their children, this is the same argument used to defend female genital mutilation. It is beholden on a society to ensure that a child’s right to be protected from preventable disease by vaccination is not infringed by the ideological beliefs of their parents.

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    • Andy

      Interestingly, despite all the venting from Dorey and her acolytes, parents do have the right not to vaccinate. Not only is vaccination not compulsory in Australia, the government actively funds so-called “conscientious objection”. Which kind of blows all the conspiracy theories out of the water.

      For me, the real issue isn’t with the right of individual parents to make that decision, it’s about giving public speaking time to someone who clearly has little understanding of basic maths and science.

      Meryl Dorey is not an expert and she demonstrates that lack of expertise in almost every Facebook comment or blog article she writes. Her fundamental failure to grasp even the simplest of statistical comparisons tells me that she should not be trusted to handle the far-more-complex and subtly-nuanced data contained within scientific research.

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  17. derekmccue

    You don’t balance a talk by a holocaust denier by having them followed by a Rabbi. Having a medical doctor / researcher share a platform with MD just gives her totally unwarranted credibility. Free speech does not require providing a platform to people who pose a serious threat to public health.

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  18. Gary Kelk

    Moreton Bay Regional Council is coming out against Meryl Dorey’s appearance at WoodfordFF – shame the horse has already bolted…
    http://www.1015fm.com.au/2011/12/mbrc-comes-out-against-meryl-dorey-and.html

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    • chrysstevenson

      Well, yes – and that’s to be applauded. But as far as I can ascertain, that’s as far as they’re prepared to go. I rang them this afternoon and the best I could get is a constant repetition of this statement. I asked what action was being taken to put pressure on the committee, whether the Council had threatened to withdraw its sponsorship either for this year or next year and was met with nothing more than the repetition of the party line. It’s all very well to talk, but if it’s not backed up by action, it’s useless. The MRBC says they don’t control the Festival program. Fair enough. But they DO control who they sponsor.

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  19. RetroPastiche

    Can I suggest this site for people who wish to do some reading without resorting to Dr Google?

    http://www.ncirs.edu.au/index.php

    This is the website for the National Centre for Immunisation, Resarch and Surveillance. It has some great tools including educational information for parents and links to reputable research and explanations.

    I hope it is of use to anybody who has genuine (not trolling) questions about the risks and benefits of immunisations. For myself, I was lucky enough to know a medical researcher who could explain things to me when I had my daughter. Even though I had already decided to immunise, I asked questions and organised for additional immunisations for diseases which at the time were available but not on the schedule (and thus not covered by medicare). I couldn’t be happier with the outcome, and will defend my decision to any who wish to challenge me.

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  20. Maggie

    I think MD should be put on Mythbusters.

    They will sort her out.

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    • …only if they can shoot her out of a cannon! (Into a safety net, of course…)

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      • RetroPastiche

        But only a homeopathic safety net… otherwise it’s an unnatural violation of Ms Dorey’s rights.

        :-)

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        • jackie

          may i suggest a net made up of old accupuncture needles?

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          • Belle

            ^^ Not a death threat.

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      • Free

        No way JJ. Safety nets are soooo Big Pharma.

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  21. Brad

    Does anyone know if the avn Facebook page violates facebooks terms and conditions?

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  22. Med Student

    I am in my final year of Medicine. I have studied for a long time, and every day I think how lucky I am to have a future in a career that I know I will love. It angers me when people claim doctors are blinded by ‘big pharma,’ and their brainwashing tactics. I certainly am not. I have yet to be approached or even involved with any ‘big pharma’ or associated marketing. I have based my opinions by understanding the basic science and immunological mechanisms through which vaccines work. Large scale studies, with reputable methodologies and results, have strengthened my opinion that vaccines do work. Why would people want to believe that people like me study so hard, only to be corrupted by those with financial interests in treatment methods? Do they really think we are so gullible? So please, lets stop the conspiracy theories. I really will try and do the very best for each and every one of my patients. And I will make these decisions based on the gold standard – reputable scientific evidence.

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    • Gary Kelk

      Med Student – its because it’s all they’ve got. Personal attacks and Big Pharma conspiracy theories. They have to rationalise their ideology somehow, and when there pseudoscience fails…..

      Lets not mention the multi-billion dollar industry that is so-called alternative medicine they all push – the vast majority of which does not work and is not supported by any robust science.

      Nice reasoned post BTW.

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    • Sue

      Well-said, Med Student. You will find your intern year hard work, but also very rewarding. You see, the vast majority of people appreciate the time and effort you have put into learning the knowledge of your chosen profession, and now you will learn to apply and practice it.

      Don’t be too discouraged by the comments here – thankfully they don’t represent the majority of rational people. But please do keep up your social consciousness and continue to oppose disinformation wherever you see it – best wishes to you.

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    • Deb

      This is the heart of the issue. All the questions about ingredients and details are furphies, because it ultimately comes down to a conspiracy -

      For vaccines to be causing damage all the tests from around the world going back decades would have to be a coverup. There is no way a problem could have been missed by that number of people over that time, it could only occur with a conspiracy.

      This needs to be pointed out every time the question comes up. Perhaps when people new to the question understand they are buying into a conspiracy theory they might look more closely.

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    • Kris2040

      Med Student, you ask: “Why would people want to believe that people like me study so hard, only to be corrupted by those with financial interests in treatment methods? Do they really think we are so gullible?”

      I think some of it comes from actually believing it, and some comes from sheer bloody-mindedness from those who don’t want to admit they were wrong.

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  23. Loz

    Alright, the way I see it… Why make a big deal about a speaker sharing their opinion at the festival? If you don’t want to hear it – don’t go to her session. As a mother, I feel it’s important to hear other peoples opinions when it comes to children’s health, whether I agree or not, it keeps me asking questions and making sure I am properly educated.. I’m not pro OR anti vaccination.. As their is no proof either way.. I am so tired of reading heated debates on vaccination. Do what you think is right for you and your child, be respectful of others opinions.

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    • Rick Morton

      This isn’t a matter of opinions though, Loz. Because there are facts involved and evidence. There IS proof, that’s why we vaccinate. Not because we think it’s fun.

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      • Loz

        Rick, I just said I’m not pro or anti. My daughter is vaccinated. I babysit a girl who isn’t. Just how life is. I have done my research on both sides. Am interested to know where you found the evidence if you don’t mind sharing, thank you :)

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        • Rick Morton

          The research is listed in the comments from peer reviewed, reputable sources and not from some blog. That’s how science works, the theories are examined by experts (peers) and tested strenuously. All the ‘research’ presented by people at the AVN has been thoroughly debunked. Time and time again. But they won’t listen.

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        • Sue

          Loz – if your comment about sharing the evidence is made in honesty, then there is a lot of reading for you to do.

          Firstly, for the older vaccines like polio and smallpox, the evidence of effectivess is int he differential rates of polio in the vaccinated world vs the unvaccinated. Here are some references:
          http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X02005844
          and
          http://www.sciencemag.org/content/314/5802/1150.short

          For other vaccines – here are some more:
          Pneomococcal vaccine:
          http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673606696372
          Chickenpox:
          http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/197/Supplement_2/S82.short
          Meningococcal
          http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673604167251
          Rotavirus:
          http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/125/2/e199.short
          These are actual research papers, so you can see the methods and data for yourself. They are not somebody’s personal opinion.

          If you have trouble working out how the data was gathered or analysed, I’m sure there are people reading here who would be happy to help.

          If you want to read some of the hundreds more, I suggest you search on Google Scholar, which gives you actual studies, rather than just google, which also gives you everybody’s blog site and interest group.

          Happy reading!

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          • Loz

            Thank you so much! My main issue – not being able to find ACTUAL studies. I’ll definitely do some reading tonight when I get some spare time. If only there were more people in the world like you Sue :)

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            • oopsyboops

              Learning how to read scientific papers takes a bit of effort, but once you understand the lingo it is easy. Whenever we read one, we need to consider what is the reliability and validity of the data collection, methodoloy, data analysis, and even the hypothesis itself.
              Thinks like the sample size, how participants were recruited, what sort of study it was are very important. When looking at results, if you see something like p value <0.05 that indicates statistical significance. The lower the p value the stronger the findings.
              Also peer reviewed journals hold more weight because obviously peers have had a chance to review all the above and comment on it.
              You will find that alot of "articles" posted on blogs or alot of the anti-vaccination websites are not peer reviewed, have no real statistical analysis, or thier methodology is flawed. However the anti-vaccs people still hold onto their one message which is why everyone else gets so infuriated with them. Hope some of that helps

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            • Loz

              That is a huge help, thank you. It’s can sometimes be a tough gig being a parent. So all the help and support we can give each other goes a long way!

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            • Leon

              “ACTUAL studies” in medicine are easy to find. Go to pubmed.gov

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    • Jodie

      well said Loz!!!!

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    • D

      “As their is no proof either way”

      Yes, there is! The evidence is more than substantial.
      And it’s *there* not their but why would someone who respects Dorey’s opinions know basic spelling and grammar.

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      • Loz

        Thank you for the spelling correction D. I think we’re all allowed to have an occasional typo, after all, no one is perfect. And I am not familiar with Dorey’s opinions.

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      • Loz

        Maybe I should have re-phrased that to “I haven’t found proof either way” No need to jump down someones throat D. I wasn’t commenting to cause a fuss. Thankfully Sue has been kind enough to share some info with me. Maybe you could try a similar approach next time.

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        • Andy

          Hi Loz, (I know you said above that you’re not coming here any more but I’ll take my chances with that).

          Can I ask, did you read any of the commentary here before you posted your first comment?

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    • Lulu

      “As their is no proof either way.. ”

      No, there IS proof. Vaccinations work better than no vaccinations.

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    • Andy

      “I’m not pro OR anti vaccination.. As their is no proof either way.”

      Damn! Another keyboard flooded with coffee. I have to stop reading this site.

      Edited in light of subsequent comments.

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    • Kerry Maxwell

      Clearly, if you think there is no proof either way you just aren’t paying attention. Why should I be respectful of a delusional and misinformed opinion? Be sure to educate your kiddies on the concept of a flat earth. Because that means you asking questions and “properly educated”.

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  24. Sandi

    Please consider removing Meryl Dorey from this otherwise wonderful programme. Or at least balance her unqualified opinion (and that’s all it is!) with some genuine scientific data. I am all for informed consent, but the message put out by the AVN is not informed, educated or balanced but dangerous. Before you delete my post and/or condemn me as a “Nazi” as seems to be the case when confronted with someone who disagrees with you, think about the reasons she is being investigated by the HCCC, why the “doctors” who published the original “research” have been discredited and deregistered and why the incidence of infectious diseases and their mortalities and morbidities have decreased so substantiially in the Western World since immunisation began. This would really be informed and educated diiscussion.

    This is the post I wrote on the Woodford Festival FB site.

    I wonder how long it will be before I attract the vitriol of the AVN?

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  25. I don’t believe in Santa Claus.

    I don’t believe in The Tooth Fairy.

    I don’t believe in The Easter Bunny.

    I don’t believe in Conspiracy Theories.

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    • An Idle Dad

      “The central belief of every moron is that he is the victim of a mysterious conspiracy against his common rights and true deserts. He ascribes all his failures to get on in the world, all of his congenital incapacity and damfoolishness, to the machinations of werewolves assembled in Wall Street, or some other such den of infamy”
      H.L. Mencken

      I heart this quote. And the word “Damfoolishness”.

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  26. Nico

    Dear God. I have summarised the comments section for those who don’t want to read:
    - Nazis
    - ‘Big Pharma’
    There we go. Ugh. If I read ‘Big Pharma’ one more time I’m putting my fist through the monitor.

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    • An Idle Dad

      Big Pharma.

      Sorry, couldn’t resist! Hope your fist is OK.

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      • Nico

        I shall send you my hospital bill!

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  27. Nick Bowditch

    Whether you are pro-vaccine or anti-vaccine, you should do your OWN research and form your OWN opinion.

    And in doing your research, you should consult experts and expert commentary. And by expert, I mean EXPERT.

    Not someone who, for whatever reason, wants to push an agenda (however valid that agenda might be) without supportive science, facts or empirical evidence.

    I have nursed a baby who died from whooping cough. It wasn’t in what some people are calling ‘low-vax region’ of Australia, although her parents made the decision not to get her vaccinated. I don’t know if this changed their view on vaccinating their other children from that point on, but it certainly solidified my view on it.

    We have vaccinated our children and will continue to do so.

    My fear is not only for the health and wellbeing of un-vaccinated children but for the other children they come in contact with whose parents may make that choice when the time comes.

    It is one thing to be alternative and own-minded, it is quite another to be wilfully negligent and endanger your childrens’ lives and the lives of other people’s children.

    And for the legion of people spouting their diatribe on here behind the vail of ‘Anonymous’, if you really feel strongly enough to voice your opinions in the way you are voicing them, why aren’t you proud enough to tell the world who you are?

    For the record, my name is above and I am @nickbowditch on Twitter if you want to find me. I’m proud of my stance on this issue. If you held a tiny baby girl as she died from one of these horrible diseases, you would be proud of it too.

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  28. Virginia

    Can you please provide contact details for the Festival organisers and local council? I’d like to make a formal complaint.
    Thanks, Virginia

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  29. katehunter

    Then there’s the issue of false and misleading advertising. Woodford ticketholders are being told they are getting an ‘expert.’ This is not the case. I have been on Gruen. I know about this stuff. I will look up Meryl’s FB page and get the festival director’s email address. He should be alerted to this if the idea of kids dying isn’t enough.

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  30. Mike

    But where is the “balance” in only having Meryl speak? Too often media feel the need to “balance” science stories by talking to those peddling pseudoscience, why can’t the festival organiser balance a talk by Meryl with another by a scientist?

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  31. martinbouckaert

    Maybe helpful for getting REAL information… you know, not the rubbish kind

    I like the title

    http://www.quackwatch.com/

    This is a nice article

    http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pseudo.html

    And, for those that are gonna inevitably cry “conspiracy”

    http://www.quackwatch.com/00AboutQuackwatch/funding.html

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  32. anarchic teapot

    Hauritz is organising the festival and “doesn’t know” if Dorey is being paid?

    And why should he have ‘typed into Google ‘doctors against vaccinations’? Isn’t that a loaded question? As for the pages and pages of results, I bet most of them were AVN, whale.to and NVIC.

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    • PG

      The fact he typed into Google ‘doctors against vaccinations’ as opposed to ‘doctors for vaccinations’ probably reveals his bias.

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  33. Adam

    Wow, some people really don’t get it. This is a folk festival. There was no need to invite some kook to speak at the event, making the organisers look stupid, diverting attention away from the acts and attractions, and hurting the bottom line. Perhaps if the kook in question were just some mad eccentric it wouldn’t matter, but this woman’s ignorant, stupid views have killed kids and while she has a platform to espouse those views she will continue to kill kids. So well done Woodford, you’re an accessory to a child killer.

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  34. chrysstevenson

    The story has just been picked up by internationally known science and skeptical blogger PZ Myers: http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/12/13/horrifyingly-delusional-anti-vaxxers-in-australia/

    Really bad international publicity – not only for the festival but also for Woodford.

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    • martinbouckaert

      A quote from one of the comments :p this is great

      “Debate with this people is meaningless. Once someone claims that Measles and whooping cough are harmless, he or she is so far off the deep end, that it is best to let them drown.”

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      • An Idle Dad

        The debate is not to convert Meryll to sanity and science. The debate is to ensure there is enough noise that all the normal people out there – who are having kids for the first time but haven’t thought deeply about vaccinations at all, hear about Meryll’s lunacy from us first, and not unquantified directly from her (via a chiropractor or child care worker or google search).

        Let her drown, fine. The debate is to prevent others drowning with her.

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  35. Anonymous

    At the risk of adding some science to the madness and insults being carried on here, have a look at this if you would like to question anything

    Recent breakthrough in vaccine delivery by Professor Mark Kendall
    Researchers at the University of Queensland have found that giving vaccines via patches rather than needles requires a far smaller dose of the vaccine

    Professor Kendall was asked

    ANNIE GUEST: Professor Kendall can you explain generally how the so-called Nanopatch is used to deliver the vaccine and why it can use less of that agent?

    and answered

    MARK KENDALL: Sure. The Nanopatch is designed from the ground up to place vaccines directly into the skin to where our rich body of immune cells are. And unlike the needle which puts things into the muscle which has very few immune cells, the Nanopatch puts it to our immune sweet spot. And by doing that we make vaccines work a lot better.

    So the Professor is saying that our current method of delivery of vaccines delivers too much where it is of limited use – in fact – there is a lot to be improved here

    Now science has been searching for alternate delivery mechanisms as the current one has some faults

    Professor Kendall has been able to do that because he was able to see that there were problems and he was allowed to do that
    Is the penny dropping yet?

    http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2010/s2880054.htm

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    • Jane DJ

      Scientists finding ways to better improve on the things they have already discovered? WOW! Who’d have thought they’d be so progressive!

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      • Andy

        But how do you implant mind-control microchips with a patch?

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    • martinbouckaert

      This is not good logic. The professor is NOT saying that there is a lot to be improved, he says, quite specifically, “And by doing that we make vaccines work a lot better.” He DOESN’T say that they’re bad, or that they don’t work, or that they’re flawed.

      He just says, this method is BETTER.

      Where is the claim and the proof that the current delivery mechanism having faults? Apart from some being a little nervous about needles, all we have is your word.

      The word of “anonymous” is not good science.

      The article doesn’t even have anything to do with whether or not vaccines are good or bad, just a new advancement in the technology.

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      • InsertAnalogyHere

        I think of it as a faster internet connection. 10mbps works alright and all, loads websites just fine, I can play online videogames, downloads take a little while. 50mbps is obviously better for download speeds and gaming, but it doesn’t mean that 10mbps fails at connecting to the internet.

        And since I am excited that these comments allow pictures, here is a picture of a tiny baby Wotsit I found. It was delicious.

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        • Nico

          Wotsits! Now I want some.

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    • Mike

      But that is how science works – continuously improving treatments – it does not invalidate the benefits of existing treatments.

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    • An Idle Dad

      Glad you’ll be on board with vaccinations once they are deployed by patches… right?

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  36. rohanjamesgaiswinkler

    Oh really, Ms Dorey?

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    • peterbowditch

      Wow! She actually mentioned my name. The real question is why she keeps putting the word “article” in scare quotes. It is an article, whether Ms Dorey likes it or not.

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  37. martinbouckaert

    Recommend simply ignoring the resident troll known only as Anonymous on this page.

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    • Anonymous

      I love the sound of jack boots in the morning

      smashing glass anyone

      Kristallnacht,

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  38. martinbouckaert

    Please, AVN advocates, don’t insult our intelligence by comparing us to Nazis. Those of us with the ability to mobilise our brain cells into a degree of self-thought know that decades history itself has already PROVEN that illness is FAR MORE likely among those that are not vaccinated than it is to get illness from the vaccination itself. The statistics are there, a subject of public record. You can cherry pick all you want, but when you’ve got the facts staring you in the face, speaking for themselves, and you still choose to only use the ones that suit you, taking them completely out of context, that is the absolute HEIGHT of arrogance and ignorance, and not just an insult to our intelligence… but you insult your own, as well. By conducting “science” in such a way, the AVN just comes across as a bunch of uneducated twits. I pity them too much to gas them, they bring this on themselves.

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    • martinbouckaert

      Excuse me, troll, but did you read one single word of what I’ve said? I don’t see you offering any “intelligent” alternatives to calling US Nazi yourself, whereas I’ve offered nothing but logical points, debate issues, against the dribble you’ve offered in lieu of anything intelligent at all.

      I’m done with your pathetic attempts to bait the readers on here, and I’ve reported your posting as trolling.

      GTFO

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      • Anonymous

        But like a true bully doesn’t like getting the same back

        calls other all manner of names and then gets upset when he gets a response

        not pleasant Martin – no wonder you were likened to a NAZI I guess the label has kinda stuck

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  39. bwe

    Peter,

    We use a site, change.org, in the U.S. for petitions. This might be a way to start a campaign to both serve notice on festival organizers and to expose Meryl Dorey more widely.

    While it may not have little effect in the short term, it may help convince festival organizers to not invite Dorey the next time. Properly done these kind of petitions can go viral quickly and effectively.

    See: http://www.change.org/victories#featured

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  40. Anonymous

    Oh if you think that you are making up your own mind or that your doctor is making up his own mind independently and just based on research and not on really really expensive marketing from big pharma – check out this insiders viewpoint

    http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/backgroundbriefing/a-noble-cause/3583670

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    • martinbouckaert

      This is an opinionated discussion, not an academic one, with an obvious bias. You’ve been whinging that the science to vaccines is biased by big pharma, but without any evidence, and try to use more opinion to prove your point?

      Do you have to have a lot of practice to become a hypocrite, or does it just come naturally to the paranoid and brainwashed?

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      • martinbouckaert

        What case? You can’t rest a case that you never even made.

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      • Rumtopf

        Lol yes. But I don’t wonder why anti vaxxers never attempt to recreate studies and find these supposed biases for themselves, instead of their current method of sitting there making baseless assertions. It would be like searching for the end of the rainbow, and people are stupid enough to invite them as experts to large events anyways…

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    • Rumtopf

      “Big Pharma” would probably love it if everyone stopped vaccinating. Think of all the millions of hospitalised little children, and adults, using their drugs. Heck, the funeral companies would love it too. But since I actually don’t have any evidence to suggest that funeral companies aren’t secretly backing the anti vax movement, other than knowing that under the circumstances of no vaccination they would make a killing, I won’t be silly and assert that they are… Ahem

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      • martinbouckaert

        You know… if there was a logical conspiracy theory here, this is the one. This would explain the AVN’s motivations.

        And of course they would be smart enough not to ‘pay’ Dorey, not directly, anyway. I wonder where she got all that money for those magazines she’s printing, or all that merchandise they’re webpage is selling? I wonder who actually ‘buys’ it in substantial amounts to fund them to the extent that they are?

        Surely the mere 3600 fans her facebook page has aren’t wholly responsible… but I’m not making any accusations there without facts, just offering a possibility.

        After all, it’s much more realistic than the conspiracy theories she’s concocted thus far.

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        • Andy

          “I wonder where she got all that money for those magazines she’s printing,…”

          The current edition is listed as published in July 2010. I don’t think it costs much to not print magazines. Subscription dues would equal something like 100% profit at that rate.

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      • Jane DJ

        OK, so conspiracy theorists, let me get this right. Vaccines cause autism and BIg Pharma makes millions from vaccines.
        But autism has no pharmacological cure.
        So there is no profit and/or benefit to doctors when they make the following pronouncement to a parent: “I’m sorry. There is no medically approved treatment available for autism.”
        Zero.

        Now here is what I find interesting. There is a segment of the population generating billions of dollars in revenues from the alleged autism epidemic. Who are these nefarious people?

        Why, they are quack therapists.

        In whose best interest is it to keep the conspiracy alive hmmm?

        It seems to me that if a person or group’s main source of income is through the promoting of a Conspiracy Theory they will NEVER give it up.

        No matter how many times or ways it is shown to be false

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        • Andy

          Oh snap! Damn! The AVN are a tool of the Illuminati?!?!

          Now it all makes sense, finally.

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    • Med Student

      Hi Anonymous,

      I am a medical student. I have read widely on the benefits and risks of vaccinations. Just to let you know, I overwhelming support the vaccination schedule. I have never been approached by, ‘wined and dined’ or even seen any marketing from ‘big pharma’ relating to vaccination. I have come to this conclusion all by myself, based on mounds of medical research. Not based on ‘really really expensiv marketing.’

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  41. Insider

    This is Australia – We are all free to do what the Government Says.

    They always have our best interest at heart.

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    • An Idle Dad

      Pretty much!

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  42. philkent

    It is amazing that only hate speech I have seen here is from the anti-vax crowd. All this talk of Nazis is not very nice. The fact is that people with an anti-vax agenda fail to understand the science is not hate speech, it is reality.

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    • kenwood

      Antivaxers often claim that debunking their myths and lies with facts = disrespect.

      Whenever that happens they waaah all the way back to their own censored forums, where inconvenient facts and the rational people who provide them are both banned. The AVN’s Facebook page is a perfect example of this.

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      • Anonymous

        No it is the childish names and insults and the obvious enjoyment you all seem to get from your bully boy tactics that seem to be objected to

        I agree, if you could only keep yourselves above the level of braying mob?

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        • martinbouckaert

          You mean, like that ‘mob’ the AVN??

          :D

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        • Andy

          It’s difficult not to react “childishly” to childish nonsense that’s been carefully dealt with, in excruciating detail, time and time again.

          If supposed adults act like four year olds, sticking their fingers in their ears and stamping their feet whilst shouting “Conspiracy! Toxins! Conspiracy! Toxins!” then, really, it’s difficult, for me anyway, not to treat them like four year olds.

          But, all that aside, this particular thread is about Meryl Dorey’s suitability as a speaker on vaccination. In that regard I must again note that she has a link, on her blog, to an article written by a guy who thinks vaccines are a tool used by an alien race of lizard people who want to kill us all with microchips. Meryl did not ridicule or condemn him or even take issue with his views – she just posted an excerpt and invited her readers to follow the link for more (and later denied doing so but it’s still there).

          If it’s a competition of childishness, we lose.

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    • martinbouckaert

      Huh? Who’s in la la land? You mistake the concept of factual evidence for hate, and refer to us as Nazis, and expect us to take you seriously? And tell US we’re in la la land?

      You are delusional, mr anonymous. You’re nothing but a troll, you haven’t offered anything but unsupported accusation so far.

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  43. unbound

    Unfortunately, with idiots like Bill Hauritz, you have to avoid the framing they put in place. No one denies that vaccinations are not 100% safe…if you let him define the debate around perfect safety of the vaccinations, you will lose the debate every time.

    However, the vaccinations are still safer than the alternative of being exposed to the diseases the vaccinations prevent. We are losing more kids to diseases that are prevented by these vaccines than the number of kids that were ever hurt by the vaccines themselves. And the trend is growing because of biased, but largely uninformed, people like Meryl Dorey and her accomplice Bill Hauritz.

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    • Anonymous

      Not if you are dead or can’t walk UNBOUND like some of the people I have seen

      You can’t deny this and someone has to fight for these people who have been affected

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      • Deb

        You mean like those kids in calipers from polio? You’re right, preventing those undeniable injuries and deaths from vaccine preventable diseases is exactly why we’re doing this ;)

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      • martinbouckaert

        You are more likely to wind up facing these conditions WITHOUT vaccination, and the rate of vaccination success so far, on every level, while not 100% perfect, have already proven that the chance of illness without a vaccination is FAR FAR greater than the chance of illness CAUSED by a vaccine.

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      • Andy

        Ever met a kid whose ribs were cracked by a seat belt in a car accident? Have you read stories of people dying as a result of being trapped by their seat belts? What’s your advice to parents about seat belts?

        “NO, STOP! Don’t put the seat belt on her. Have you seen what these things do? I HAVE!”

        You can’t deny this and someone has to fight for these people who have been affected

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  44. rainbow

    gosh i cannot believe the number of comments on this post. all this reading makes me remember i must get onto making my christmas fruitcakes… EXTRA NUTS this year

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    • jackie

      i know, its even better than the Cadel Evans debacle!!! Very entertaining + to think I was ready to sign off after Catherine Deveney in her cozies, Mia has dragged me back!

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      • martinbouckaert

        I can’t believe they’d resort to comparing us to Nazis after their own claims that we’ve attacked them.

        *runs and hides secret hydrogen cyanide tanks*

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        • Anonymous

          whats not to believe – you have left your tactics here on the page

          your enjoyment of the process is as obvious an it is ugly – the insults do not serve to save lives as you may say – but they do show your true nature

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          • martinbouckaert

            Dude, enough. My ‘tactics’ are logic, yours are nonsense. Where did I claim that insults save lives? Please, you’re making yourself look like a complete idiot, and I promise you that many are thinking the same thing. You have no way of knowing my true nature if you have no ability to see the lack of logic in my statements so far.

            You inability to grasp the obvious is your failure, not my tactics. And I won’t denigrate myself any further by dignifying your dribble with answers that you can’t seem to comprehend anyway.

            As long as you think you’re winning or proving something… well, all I can say is, enjoy your delusions while they last. If you ever grow the balls to come out of the shroud of ‘anonymous’ to make your suppositions, let me know.

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  45. missyg

    One of the things that Bill may have thought is that by having Meryl there he was preaching to the converted – as he probably still thinks of woodford in its original form – That was a very alternative lifestyle gathering. Perhaps he doesn’t realise quite how mainstream his festival has become, or maybe he does and really doesn’t care, as to him the festival has become a major money making venture.
    However the scarey thing is that everyone that i know who has been to woodford (including myself) comes back with some form of “bug”. If it is a wet festival, as it looks like being, some of the tents become like a sauna and are a breeding ground for disease’s. Given that almost every school in the region around Woodford has had a problem with Whooping cough this year it will be interesting to see how many people get sick following the festival.
    I have a number of friends who are anti vaccination due to the avn, and it has caused some rousing debate. The hardest part is telling my closest friend that her unvacinated 5 and 3 year olds cannot come to visit my newborn until he has his second round of vacinations. It may seem harsh but the 5 year olds school is one of the worst affected by whooping cough in the area.
    Also most of the people that i know not vacinating their children cannot quote scientific reasons for not doing so but will quote unscientific reasons from the AVN like gospel and have bought completely into the fear factor. I even had one of them ask me how i could risk my newborns health by vacinating. He didn’t like it when i asked him how he could risk the health of my child by not vacinating.

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    • petertierney

      I wouldn’t have them near your bub until he is at least 6 months old. After 3 rounds of Pertussis vax.

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    • rainbow

      for what it is worth, it doesn’t seem harsh to me, i would do exactly the same thing. the mccaffery family (i hope that is the right spelling) have alerted many australians to the fact that whooping cough is a serious illness in little babies. we have to thank them, they have most likely saved lives.

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    • Kris2040

      Good on you for standing your ground and speaking up with your friends, missyg. I agree with Peter, wait till you’ve had all 3 pertussis jabs done. What a shame about your friends. What do you think it’ll take to get them to wake up to themselves?

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      • Anonymous

        I think the big question here is not about vaccination or whether you choose to or not. The big question is why is the media and the medical community are only reporting partial stories. Ask your doctor whether the reported cases of pertussis (whooping cough) came from the vaccinated or unvaccinated. Do you know what…. they can’t tell you! Because they don’t have to report it!!!! We all deserve the full story whether you believe in vaccination or not….

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        • Kris2040

          Whooping Cough isn’t a reportable disease? What?

          For partial story reportage, you can’t go past the AVN, for they are the masters.

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        • lisajensen

          Erm, the whole issue with the AVN is that it’s only partially reporting stories!! The only difference is the media and medical community have actual science behind them, not just some old and already discredited myths.

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          • Anonymous

            Kris… Whooping cough is a reportable disease… whether you have been fully vaccinated or not is not included in the data given. Why? Surely if vaccinating against this disease so effective, this data would only support the cause to vaccinate. I just struggle with why we are given so little information in regards to the actual effectiveness of these vaccines, just that they work! I need statistics… on both sides.

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    • Anonymous

      Well I wouldn’t go to Woodford if it was any other way and from my experience the only day that woodford has the standard conservative attendants like the ones that are expressing their opinion here is the very unpleasant new years eve when a hole pile of ugly rednecks turn up (expressing behaviour much like you see expressed here.

      Real Woodfordians don’t tend to go into the festival on that night but hold their own celebrations at their camp

      don’t for one minute think that this organised group of bullys is representative of a typical woodford audience

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      • missyg

        for what its worth i have been going to woodford since it was in Maleny and it is a very different festival now to what it was. don’t be fooled it is a money making venture. Oh and shockingly i’m not a redneck and still go to the festival. In fact some of my closest friends are performance artists at the festival. And one of them was the one who asked me about harming my child. So who is bullying who???
        The beauty of woodford is that everyone creates their own fabulous experience and it is now largly (although it may not seem so at the time) a middle class suburban audience. If in doubt have a look for Bill Hauritz driving in his Merc and have a look at his fabulous accom. I have been in the vip area and its a different world to the camp sites.
        its really not about how each person experience’s the festival. its about the fact that the festival is allowing someone who portrays herself to be something she’s not get speaking time in an environment where there is no equal debate or allowing for the other side to express their viewpoint. A viewpoint that can prove unequivically with scientific fact that the first persons view is illogical and dangerous.

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        • Anonymous

          Woodford does not make a profit and if you don’t wish to hear Meryl don’t go to her talk.

          The beauty of Woodford is that they are open to all and give all a go

          maybe you could take on some of that as well

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    • Mike

      Good on you for protecting your baby. Hopefully your friends aren’t so corrupted by AVN’s irrationality that they actually think they would be doing your child a favour by infecting him.

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  46. petertierney

    Meryl Dorey has issued an ACTION ALERT to her followers. She is upset at Mamamia being “anti-choice”, and seems to be of the misguided assumption that no one has provided any evidence to debunk her flawed claims. Maybe she has stopped reading these comments?

    I like this bit, which comes before all of the ads to buy stuff.

    “The articles are rabid – the comments to these articles are toxic. The most obvious thing is that none of these people has any scientific reason for objecting to our participation at Woodford – they simply disagree with our viewpoint. As a result, they feel that nobody should be allowed to hear our side of this debate and are trying to force their censorship on the Festival. In fact, they say there IS no debate – there is only one side to the vaccination issue and only scientists and doctors should be allowed to discuss it in public and the rest of us should just shut up and do what we’ve been told!”

    http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?llr=zpdsgecab&v=001zcvTRfzfKBH95g3e45yoP4i46uT-kxNn88u9djTGKz8KFlhwTi-mr-hHBnnmjKjWqghyU2JwyifNgB0hFLxPN1X4tdhl9JH3rqCSNHjjCMs%3D

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    • Rick Morton

      An urgent action alert, no less! I feel like I’m in a space movie. It’s a traaaaap!

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      • rainbow

        ABORT MISSION! ABORT MISSION!!!!

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        • rainbow

          sorry did you say my behaviour was ugly?

          POT. KETTLE. BLACK

          ps. i have not gone onto meryl’s website, and quite frankly never will.

          alerting moderator….

          edit to add: i won’t alert moderator actually. your comment says a lot more about you and what you support than it does about me. comments like yours just add more weight to the anti-AVN cause, so to you, i give thanks

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      • martinbouckaert

        Yo, Meryl, I’m really impressed with all your own scientific proofs *cough* and i’mma let you finish but ignoring scientific proof doesn’t constitute a LACK of scientific proof.

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      • petertierney

        Hey Rick, see the part where she links all of the contacts to contact? She copypasted that off my blog. The least she could do is give me a hat-tip.

        Bonus points: I now know she reads my blog, so she has no excuse not to answer questions I have asked of her.

        AVN WINNING STRATEGY

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      • Anonymous

        NO its a pogram

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      • An Idle Dad

        That’s not a moon. It’s a space station.

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    • Deb

      Is she copy pasting these? It sounds very familiar. Nice to see she is showing the usual amount of respect for other’s opinions.

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    • katehunter

      This is so handy! If you want to write to organisers and sponsors of Woodford, Meryl has supplied contact deets in one convenient location.

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    • rohanjamesgaiswinkler

      Vaccines save lives. Rarely, there are adverse consequences, and very rarely the consequences are quite serious. Time and time again Meryl Dorey tries to present a different picture to this straight-forward reality and every time her arguments are cut to pieces.

      That is why time and time again Ms Dorey takes to her fall-back position. But don’t be fooled into thinking that this fall-back position is of secondary importance. Her fall-back position is the main game, it is her raison d’etre, and it goes like this:

      Merly Dorey is the free speech martyr to vaccine injured kiddies everywhere.

      With no arguments of merit, Ms Dorey must play the persecution card: See how my enemies want me silenced, she cries. See how they mock and condemn me! See how I am persecuted for my unorthodox views by the corrupted, conspiring establishment. And her acolytes lap it up. For like all conspiracy theorists, they find vindication with every condemnation. For them, Meryl Dorey needs NO evidence. The conspiracy itself is the evidence.

      And so Ms Dorey returns to her little cocoon to congratulations once again.

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    • peterbowditch

      I see Ms Dorey followed form by avoiding to mention my name (the evil juju is just too great) and by linking me with Australian Skeptics despite being told on many occasions that I don’t speak for them.

      So predictable.

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    • lucindainthesky

      Well whatdya know, all the contact details of the organisers of Woodford, and all her Sponsers, in one place. How very handy! Are you thinking what I’m thinking B1?

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    • Andy

      It’s difficult when she refuses to engage. I asked her if she still supported David Icke’s view that vaccination is a plot by the Illuminati (reptilian overlords) to implant mind-control chips with a view to committing genocide. She didn’t respond.

      But in 2009 she did link to an article stating all that. I think it’s important for attendees at Whoopingford Folk Festival to know what she really believes.

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    • Andy

      Oh Damn! Not a Meryl URGENT ACTION ALERT.

      I never considered it might come to this. Pleeease can I withdraw all my comments now as I do not want to feel her wrath?

      Run people. Hide. Do it now. Think of the children. Attica. Attica! Where’s the remote? Who had the remote?

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    • Robin Hilliard

      I love how the whole second half of her post is about renewing subscriptions for Christmas.

      Urgent action alert: People are being allowed to debate vaccination on a forum where we can’t delete their comments. Pay me money now!

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      • rohanjamesgaiswinkler

        lol Robin.. Meryl has so many failings, but missing an opportunity to rattle her donations tin is not one of them.

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      • Andy

        Subscription to a 6-issues-per-year magazine that was last published almost 18 months ago. Somehow 50% off just doesn’t seem quite enough for no-issues-per-year.

        Yet, oddly, her supporters who constantly shout “do your research”, don’t seem to notice this glaring problem.

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    • Anonymous

      Meryl – “there is only one side to the vaccination issue and only scientists and doctors should be allowed to discuss it in public”

      Then why on earth are you allowed to? You are neither!

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      • Maggie

        Woops forgot to put my name on that one :)

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  47. mirror mirror on the wall

    Meryl Dorey you are a nobody. You claim to represent hundreds, thousands of “vaccine injured” people, but this is for fraudulent purposes. Its not about them, its all about you, your self-righteous drama, denial of science, denial of diseases, and outright lies you create to convince yourself you live a meaningful existence. Do us all a favour and shut shop.

    You are right about one thing, people do need to hear the complete truth about vaccination. People need to know about the real risk. The real adverse events that occur. But you are not the one for the job. You lie. You exaggerate the numbers. You associate adverse events that are completely unrelated. You are incompetent. You are a manufacturer of “evidence”, manipulator of studies and doppelganger of truth.

    There are real people out there with vaccine injuries. There are real families out there who have children with autism, whose babies who have died of SIDS. You bring shame to these people. Quit pretending you know better.

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    • DR BOB

      sorry to enter into this hysteria here but sadly very very sick people do exist due to a reaction to vaccinations, not everyone, but some do and it can be catastrophic, absolutely deadly – no question of it

      Mark my words there will be an increasing rate of reactions – we all need to listen to someone who is questioning what is going on

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      • petertierney

        “Dr”? Prove it. I hope this isn’t our favourite chiropractor who has frequently passed himself off as a medical practitioner on other forums.

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      • Rhianna Miles

        Dr Bob,

        I would be interested to know what your qualifications are? I have used my real name and am searchable on the medical board. I am happy to stand by my views. Are you?

        For the sake of completeness, I am an adult nephrologist. I deal with immune mediated renal conditions, and post transplant patients, so have an understanding of immunology a little higher than the average GP.

        You make two interesting, and almost completely polar opposite points.

        I 100% agree with you that there *are* people who have been devastated by vaccine reactions. Saba Button from WA springs to mind. Such cases are a tragedy and the sooner we get a government funded payment scheme for such people, the better. Vaccines are not 100% safe, not 100% effective. Research continues to strive to improve them, as only a glancing look at current publications can tell us.

        You second poimt, ” we all need to listen to someone who is questioning what is going on” is utterly ridiculous. Why on earth would you pay attention to somebody with zero relevant qualifications, and a track record of misunderstanding the literature. I will choose to trust the ongoing body of research into vaccinology, infectious diseases and immunology over anything said by Meryl Dorey – who has proven herself a multitude of times to be a lying belligerent idiot, more consumed with chewing up expenses under the banner of the AVN than any kind of true consumer advocacy.

        What kind of a doctor are you, that you choose to ignore the weight of the medical literature? This is a serious question. I am interested what your qualifications are, given you proudly proclaim yourself as Dr Bob

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        • Andy

          Isn’t Dr Bob one of the Muppets?

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      • Deb

        So did you actually read his second paragraph? The one where he pointed out that there are genuine reactions? Or is this the patented anti-science ‘research’ method in action – read the first few lines and don’t bother to actually comprehend it?

        I suppose it’s possible you are actually a doctor, although I, too, am interested in what. However you don’t seem to get the point of science – it isn’t about who you are or what pieces of paper you have, it’s about whether or not you have the evidence. The AVN does not.

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        • Mike

          He said there are bad reactions but didn’t provide any evidence. WHat’s wrong with actually asking for evidence?

          Anyway as someone lese has pointed out, seatbelts can cause injuries as well but they also save far more lives.

          No one is arguing that vaccines can’t, in rare circumstance, cause issues. If scientists didn’t have to spend as much time as they do defending the efficacy of vaccines to ill infomred antivaxxers they could be spending time looking at these rare occurrences and working out ways to prevent them.

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    • Anonymous

      Mein Kampf read to the strains of Wagner

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      • An Idle Dad

        Surely if you’re going to insult us by suggesting we subscribe to an extreme political philosophy, we would be commies, not Nazis?

        But then again, being 100% wrong is your default position…

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        • Kris2040

          Also, what’s so wrong with reading Mein Kampf to the strains of Wagner? Reading nutty political tracts is a great way to learn about how such conclusions are reached and the logic behind it. It’s why I read the AVN’s stuff as well. The amounts of logic are incredibly similar.

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          • An Idle Dad

            Oh dear. I *heart* Wagner. At uni, I used to favour Doc Martins as footwear. Steel toes, even.

            OMG I MUST BE A Nasi Goreng!

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            • Kris2040

              I still wear steel caps. They’re very handy. Did you know you can get steel capped VOLLEYS????

              Isn’t the “World In Union” song music by Wagner?

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  48. Girl

    I just want to thank all the people who are on here, calmly, intelligently and without hysteria taking apart the ridiculous tripe these AVN types are sprouting. It is painful to argue with uninformed people, but there is a few of you on here, doing so and in the process, not letting them get away with their crap. Because you just know, even if you let one of their silly strawman arguments go unanswered they’d take it as a win. Good on you. We all appreciate it.

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    • kateinlondon

      ditto x1000

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      • petertierney

        Kate! Missed you.

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        • kateinlondon

          I’m sorry! Partly three kids/job/blog/christmas excuse, but also partly distress – I just find it so hard to read all this nonsense over and over and over again. I have the most immense amount of admiration for you guys keeping at it. Seriously – you’re all doing an amazing job. Rest assured I have done my bit in emailing and FB posting. And it’s nice to be missed!

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      • Anonymous

        You guys should be ashamed of yourselves – you show such an ugly side of society with your aggression. You are all aggressive, violent, ugly and supercilious

        You are an ugly mob with a nob mentality who are ignoring what is actually happening and are fooled by big pharma and the money they put into fooling masses like you guys

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        • petertierney

          In my late teens I had a “nob mentality”. I no longer hold that view.

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        • martinbouckaert

          Wow… so far, that’s the most aggressive I’ve seen on here. The whole “big pharma” argument doesn’t fly, because it’s been debunked by the law itself, which has been explained. Which, if you did your own research instead of listen to the brainwashing of fear-mongering quacks, you’d be able to find for yourself.

          But seriously… no one on here has been anywhere NEAR as aggressive as you. Maybe you should find out about a rage vaccine

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        • Deb

          So is it ugly of you to call us ugly?

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        • Andy

          In order to improve my approach, should I take your comment as an example of polite interaction?

          So, just to be sure, the following terms are okay?

          “should be ashamed, ugly side, aggression, aggressive, violent, ugly, supercilious, ugly mob, nob mentality (tee hee), fooled, fooling masses.

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        • An Idle Dad

          I love it that the most passive and calm comment thread draws the most argressive hate!

          Comedy gold.

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        • Girl

          I’m not ashamed. I’m so proud of myself and this community for sticking up for what’s right. Even in the face of irrational, ugly arguments like these.

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        • lisajensen

          Ooh ooh ooh!! I know the answer to this one! The big pharma’s put something in the vaccinations we had as kids so they could more easily control our minds and opinions?!!

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    • Anonymous

      Gee girl – I wish what you were correct – but there is nothing reasonable, calm and intelligent gong on here – this is the ugly side of society – the really ugly, ugly side of society.

      The reaction here is a bit reminiscent of the Third Reich and the way they treated the Jews – the insane hate is the same. Shame on you all of you ugly Stop AVN commentators you are the NAZIs of today

      I am sure your next stop will be to hurtle actual abuse and maybe burn AVN literature

      What next you NAZI’s the gas chambers?

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      • peterbowditch

        Godwin! You lose.

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      • petertierney

        Antivaxers are nice.

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      • lucindainthesky

        Whooping Cough chambers might be more appropriate…

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      • dr rainbow

        see my reply to your previous comment above.

        ps. see what i just did ^^ we can all be doctors around here

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      • martinbouckaert

        Comparing educated people who know what they’re talking about to Nazi’s is about as ugly as it gets.

        For one thing, yes. I would gladly burn AVN literature. It has been declared misinformation and potentially dangerous, definitely not based in any actual academic research, countless times, not least of all by third-party researchers that DON’T profit AT ALL, from ANYONE.

        When commentators spread a self-declared “factual” message that has no basis in real science WHATSOEVER, then it is nothing but postulated propaganda. I would say you should just shut up, you’re doing more harm then good, but those of us that know better have become pretty good at ignoring you.

        Until you start comparing us to Nazis. That’s when I start comparing you to this lot http://madmikesamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/crazies.jpg and this lot, too http://www.sugarcraft.com/catalog/novelties/looneytunes/LooneyTunesWallpaper.jpg

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      • Andy

        You have seen some of the vile and aggressive commentary on the AVN Facebook page I assume?

        While that doesn’t excuse any vileness that might occur on the pro-vax side, I think it only fair to recognise that it’s not entirely one sided. And at least the pro-vax side litter their abuse with facts.

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      • Girl

        Wow. I have never been compared to a Nazi before. Maybe my history is off, but didn’t Nazi’s, I don’t know, kill people?. Unlike vaccinationations which save lives every single bloody day.

        And yes, Godwin. It’s over mate-your side loses.

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  49. Graham Storrs

    After reading Bill Hauritz’s comments I think the only course open to concerned citizens wanting to protect their children is to boycott the festival and to put whatever pressure they can on its funding bodies to withdraw their support. His anti-science, anti-common sense attitude is almost as bad as Meryl Dorey’s. If it was only the stupid people who listen to this ill-informed nonsense putting their own children at risk, it wouldn’t be so bad. But refusing vaccinations creates a pool of contagion in our society that puts many vulnerable groups in danger too. It’s a shame there isn’t a vaccine against stupidity.

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    • kiwichick

      so if you are alergic to penicillin wouldn’t you use something else?

      if my doctor says vaccinating my child is not advisable after she has had an adverse reaction i’d suggest that would be a good time to start listening

      in my case my daughter had confirmed brain inflamation; thankfully without long term damage apparently; although she has joined a religious sect

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      • Deb

        The comment is about anti-science. Following a doctor’s recommendation is not anti-science, it is evidence based, your argument is a straw man. People have acknowledged over and over that there are genuine vaccine reactions, why are you ignoring that?

        However, it is for children like yours that many of the pro-science people are fighting. People who are unable to be vaccinated need the protection of herd immunity that the anti-science mob try to deny them. Aren’t you lucky that so many of us do our bit to protect our whole community.

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        • kiwichick

          deb
          as i’ve said our doctor said stop the vaccinations for our daughter or she was at risk of permanent damage

          couple of points ; some seem to have trouble acknowledging that for some people vaccination are harmful and/or don’t work

          vaccination does not neccessarily equate to immunity

          for some people the vaccination fails to prompt the immune system to recognise the threat of the disease

          i have never said don’t vaccinate

          all i’ve ever said was try to minimise the risk

          neither am i anti science

          religion is , imho , much more dangerous than science

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          • Leon

            Kiwichick, no one I’m aware of who supports vacination has a diffiulty with the fact that vaccines don’t work sometimes, or that some people should not receive some vaccinations. This information is in the package insert supplied by the vaccine manufacturers.This is why your argument is described as a straw man, we’re actually not making this argument. Such people might exist somewhere but I’m not aware of them, they seem to be conjoured up by organisations like the AVN.

            I’m glad you’ve sought qualified medical advice about the reactions suffered by your child.

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