UPDATE, DECEMBER 14, 2011: A child has been refused enrolment at Sacred Heart School in Broken Hill, NSW, because its parents are a lesbian couple.
The report from news.com.au:
“But in a demonstration of the challenges which same-sex parents and their children still face, the school’s decision to discriminate is probably not illegal, as churches are exempt from prosecution for breaches of the Anti-Discrimination Act.
One of the mothers told the ABC the principal had phoned her and said the women’s relationship and living situation was the reason the application had been turned down.
Trevor Rynne, principal of the Sacred Heart school, yesterday confirmed the girl had been rejected because of her parents’ relationship but declined to comment further.
“It’s a breach of the Anti-Discrimination Act, there’s no question about it. But a religious school is probably exempt from that breach,” said Stepan Kerkyasharian, president of the NSW Anti-Discrimination board.”
Bishop Kevin Manning stepped in: “To penalise a 5 y/o child because her parents are…homosexual…is just quite wrong.” But why was it allowed to get to that?
What you do in the privacy of your bedroom could have you fired, or expelled from school. That’s because the major religions don’t have to abide by the same anti-discrimination laws that you and I do.
The Churches can discriminate. Just mull how crazy that sentence sounds in your head. Your regular small business or large corporation (save for very reasonable and specific exemptions for disabilities in some areas) would be hauled to the tribunal if they even tried the same tricks.
Let’s break it down. The Churches (not God, mind you, but some man in an office) have made a list of what is right and wrong when you work for them.
We’re not talking as a priest or a mullah here, but as an accountant for a church run charity, or as a gardener in a religious school.
This matters because, for instance, the Catholic Church is one of the largest private employers of people in Australia. They run schools, charities and affiliated organisations. If you work for them, they can judge you on an arbitrary set of morals and codes which they sign off on. As do the other religions.
This generally works out quite OK if your definition of a sinner is someone who murders and is convicted of such by a court of law. So far so good.
It starts to move into shaky territory when you realise that many Churches include adulterers, homosexuals, women who fall pregnant out of wedlock and so forth on the list of sinners.
There’s still some umming and ahhing from the powers that be about whether they also have a beef with people who masturbate. Seriously.
If you’re a prolific masturbator, or even just somebody who keeps a watchful eye of discrimination matters, this should be concerning at the outset.
Of course, as the counter-argument goes, nobody is forcing the unmarried single mother to apply for a job as an accountant in a Catholic charity (though one might suggest she would make a very good accountant).
Presumably we would ask her to apply for the alternative position as an accountant for the fictional law firm Sinners and Harlot.
Poppycock.
At some point leadership absolutely must overtake the draconian views of some. At some point a line must be drawn between freedom of religion (and the freedom of those beliefs) and the freedom of people to work and live in a progressive society.
That line should be drawn without recourse to the age-old excuse that the sanctity of religious beliefs somehow gives them carte blanche to vilify, oppress or discriminate, because it doesn’t. Certainly they shouldn’t have that privilege when Governments of the day clearly recognise what is discriminatory.
It’s like saying you can drink and drive because we know it’s dangerous but we’ll give exemptions
to, oh I don’t know, the powerful and well resourced alcohol lobby. Or religion.
Not enough examples?
The New South Wales Attorney-General John Hatzistergos recently came out in support of the 30-year-law that allows private schools to refuse enrolment to, or expel, students for being gay.
The gay student need not have performed any behaviour more rambunctious than popping from a womb a few years before. They need not have caused trouble at school, nor started a fight, nor bullied anybody, nor arrived to class two minutes late. They just had to be born gay.
In this day and age, surely that’s the equivalent of expelling a student for liking Mozart or for having a limp.
Mr Hatzistergos made the point that it is necessary to maintain the very ‘delicate balance’ between religious belief and, you know, 21st Century rights.
Again, the corollary argument is that gay kids don’t have to go to private schools. But that’s a bit of a shit argument. Choice is the buzzword of the 21 Century, espoused by Governments everywhere, but you’re simply not allowed to choose if you’re perceived to be an immoral wench. Or even just immoral.
The Government appears to be saying to the Churches:
Don’t want to employ that homo? We’re not looking!
Want to fire the receptionist who got knocked up out of wedlock? Be our guest!
Found out your charity officer cheated on his wife? Remove him!
In 2002 a lawyer and a social worker (this is important because they weren’t dole bludgers), both gay, attempted to adopt a child through the Wesley Mission and were refused.
The case raged on for years until our same friend from before, the NSW Attorney-General, sided with the Mission in a move that not only set a precedent but prioritised the religious freedoms as more inalienable than those of the individual couple looking to adopt.
I was raised Catholic and I am beyond familiar with the Bible. Particularly the New Testament and the parables of love, kindness and so forth.
These are good messages. Good creeds to live by.
They are not practiced by those who preach and lobby simultaneously for the right to exclude.
Should churches have the right to discriminate? Is it ever OK to exclude a minority under the banner of religious freedom?







Comments
283 Comments so far
Rick, it’s all well and good smokescreening your article with phrases like ‘what you do in the privacy of your bedroom could have you fired’, but rather than sounding like a ‘Today Tonight’ or ‘ACA’ article, perhaps you should cut straight to the crux of the matter, which is, the Attorney-General, John Hatzistergos, has supported a 30-year old NSW law that allows private schools to expel gay students simply for being gay.
I agree, such a sentiment is appalling. But I disagree with your simplistic accusations of Church schools not wanting to employ a ‘homo’. Or wanting the receptionist fired because she ‘got knocked up’. That is so far from the truth, and so far from being helpful in a debate that deserves a far more considered approach.
Schools of all religious persuasions employ teachers of all lifestyle persuasions, and as in all human relations, it is not black and white. That you are insisting that it should be raises my hackles, and I’m sure those of others.
Bludgeoning the rest of society with a gay focused agenda is not going to achieve either change or engender respect. To the best of my knowledge, unless a teacher is openly expressing views opposite to a school’s teaching policy, no school gives a rats what that teacher does, as you suggest, ‘in the privacy of their own home’.
Top Jewish schools in Sydney and Melbourne employ secular, Christian and Jewish teachers. Christian schools across the country do the same. I can’t speak for Muslim schools, but also agree to their right to employ whom they want as teaching staff. Forcing, through the instrument of government, the imposition of a standardisation of teaching staff, no matter what the school, is akin to Big Brother telling us how to think, how to vote and how to live.
I reject that.
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Perhaps you should watch a few episodes of Father Ted! If this doesn’t satisfy your curiosity I would suggest the classic Shogun series. With attention to the role of the Jesuits in trade and education.
“Give me the child, and I will mould the man.”
“Give me the child for seven years,
and I will give you the man.”
“Give me the child until he is
seven and I care not who has him thereafter.”
“Give me the child till the age of seven
and I will show you the man.”
St. Ignatius of Loyola, the founder of the Society of Jesus (Jesuits) or St. Francis Xavier, first missionary to India who assisted Ignatius in the formation of the Jesuits.
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Do you think it is a kind of cosmic joke that i am watching the Tudors at the moment and a heretic is being burned?? hmm interesting!
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One of the primary roles of government/parliament is to make law.the laws should reflect the views and values held by the majority of the community who elected them. The anti discrimination acts, sex, disability, racial etc are implemented to reflect those views. Therefore if religious institutions are to be granted an exemption from obeying these laws it is a huge contradiction that they should receive government funding, as the government should be acting representatively on behalf of the majority of the people. Think aboiut it logically. Sorry for typos i’m on jy phone
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Oh good, more Catholic bashing…just what the world needs.
Sorry, but in my experiece (having been educated in Catholic schools) I have found that they have been incredibly accepting of different lifestyles (we had a handful of unwed mothers on the teaching staff and our principal was gay). Your argument above lists only a couple of examples (one of which has nothing to do with a religious institutions) and whilst one example of discrimation is not good enough I don’t think we have reached panic stations yet.
Rick (and Mia), it would be very refreshing if an article could be produced here which shows the Catholic religion in a positive light. I’m not a regular church goer at all, but I am getting very sick of hearing the church run down at every opportunity. I know that you are both very passionate about the refugee issue – perhaps you could report on what amazing work they do in that area. The Jesuits would be a good start through their Refugee services if you aren’t familiar. Time to redress the balance please.
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Hey Mich! Truly didn’t mean for this to be a Catholic bashing exercise. I know they do some awesome work elsewhere and this article was focussing on the upper echelons of the religions who team up with Govt for laws they really don’t need … As you are right, there are so many examples of these organizations at a grassroots level being incredibly welcoming to all kinds. That makes it more frustrating for me, of course, because the laws are just so out of date yet the Attorney General still protects them. Sorry if you felt this was attack on all Catholics.
Cheers.
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Thanks for replying Rick. I know you didn’t set out “bash the micks”, but at some point it would be refreshing for the work of the grassroots catholics/christians to be celebrated. I just feel that Catholics tend to be roundly critised for everything but so many other religions tend to be “off limits” for similar or worse discriminations.
Appreciate your article nonetheless.
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My sister had to have an ovary removed when she was 21. She has suffered dreadfully with pain since her periods began. I have had 3 kids easily so we were in the process of investigating egg donation when she surprisingly fell pregnant. It wax a hideous pregnancy with so much pain but she was so happy- as was her live in partner & everyone who knows her. Then her employer (she’s a primary teacher in catholic school) told her it would be for the best if she took leave for the remainder of her pregnancy “so the children wouldn’t be confused”. I happen to be in a catholic school also where a colleague had a baby at same time as my sis (by choice, IVF) on her own & I observed the school celebrate & support her. It comes down to discretion at the moment but, as the author pointed out, the rules are wrong & hurtful.
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This is so true and such a good post. Having done a bit of relief teaching last year after moving to a new area, I was told by the principal of a local Catholic Primary School that I was not to talk or discuss my private life with any parents, should they find out that I was living with my long-term partner and not married. I don’t make a habit of discussing my private life with parents anyway, but it did make me feel a little pissed off at the whole Catholic Education System.
I don’t quite understand how being married will make me a better teacher…
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Nic, being married will not make you a better teacher per se. However, as a primary school teacher at a Catholic School I imagine one of the subjects you have to teach is religion. Now how can you teach catholicism with enthusiasm when you do not support their values/morals etc?
I reckon the principal showed they were not biased against you by giving you the job. However, it is fair enough the principal asked you to keep your private life private as otherwise heshe would have had some parents complaining on the grounds that you could not wholeheartedly support the faith and morals of the school.
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Love your work so much! I’m so glad you are writing on here so much. I don’t need to add anything because you said it all so well.
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Thanks Melissa, very nice of you to say!
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The catholic church is far more likely to be the first one to give an unmarried mother a job, to enable her to support her child.
Of course they will support the women, because in supporting her, they make ‘choosing’ to keep her baby (rather than kill it because she is not married) a much more viable option, when she know’s she will be supported and able to support the new life growing in side of her.
The church does not discriminate employment on grounds of ‘sin’. And this would be against church teaching, as a priest can forgive this sin’s in the privacy of confession, and an employer would have no idea at what point this has or has not occurred. (and fairly enough has no right to).
Where it would be useful for the church to be able to discriminate, would be if the job involved teaching the church’s teaching. This way only those who believe and live the teachings are teaching others how to do the same. This is similar to how a yoga company should be able to employ staff who are trained and practising yoga (and discrimnate by not employing trainers who are not).
Rick, please check your facts before writing an opinion piece like this. It is fine to have your own beliefs, but when they are based on false assumptions, it is unfair to educate your readers based on a speculation not a truth.
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Facts checked. Don’t want to be combative, but it is the Catholic Church among others who submitted the list of sins to various inquiries. These are there lists. Now, of course, not every Catholic school or workplace chooses to discriminate. And good on them! But at the highest level (Cardinal George Pell in Australia) this is the fight they keep making for exemptions. Google it.
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my reply has disapeared into ‘awaiting for moderation land’
is this site that biased?
there was nothing harmful at all in my comments?
talk about discrimination….
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I think there is a significant difference between comments on a website and legislation.
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As if they whole thing wasn’t disgraceful enough, these organisations all receive MY TAX DOLLARS to do ‘good works’ like finding employment or shelter for vulnerable people.
If I could accept any discrimination at all, I’d at least draw the sand at ‘if you want to be above the law, can I have my more than one billion dollars back please to give to organisations who follow the laws of this country.”
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Why have you got good works in inverted commas? Don’t you believe those things are good works? Or are you that biased that you don’t believe religion affiliated organizations can do good?
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I guess joining a church is like joining a club with rules. If you don’t like them don’t join.
I’m not a fan. I don’t go to church as I find the rules oppressive and antiquated. In the Jehovahs witnesses for instance I would be a fallen woman causing great scandal and be shunned by all because I got pregnant before I married.
doesn’t worry me though as I don’t want to be one. All people discriminate. That is life.
The best revenge is to be a good person and stick to people who care. If Catholic chools are so bigoted I sure as hell wouldn’t sent my children there.
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I guess these ‘religious institutions’ insist their employees adhere to certain ways of living because let’s face it…as soon as a Christian, who is affiliated with any high profile religious organisation does anything that society deems immoral (ie: having an affair) it seems like the proverbial tonne of bricks comes down on them from both sides (the church & the secular world) and as a result more than the actual person, the organisations reputation tends to suffer. So you better decide what you want…the insistence of employees to adhere to what would result in a ‘holy’ fairly blameless life avoiding any ridicule or do they now have carte blanche?
The church that fires a minister for visiting prostitutes or having an affair is well within their rights. The church’s’ beliefs promote a certain standard of living and when the person preaching is not abiding by what they are teaching it’s time to go. So what about the accountant?…What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. You need like minded people who are in agreement and whose focus is the same to achieve anything…from running a church to building a house.
As for the whole private school thing, as shocking as it all is, a private school is well within its rights to pick and choose who they will to attend their school.
Gandhi said it so well: “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
Rick, I usually LOVE your stuff but this one I don’t get. Sorry.
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Thanks Amy…I don’t need everyone to agree with me always! In fact in this instance I find the debate really intriguing. It’s made me re-think my position. A lot. I still don’t find myself switching because I honestly believe there are some things (like inalienable human rights) that nobody should have the right to refuse. Belief system or no. But that’s just me
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You’re so right! It’s great to have these conversations. They need to be had. Thanks for opening up the debate. xxx
And PS…what a sweetie you are to reply to me! Thank you. xxx.
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Just sharing the love
I don’t pretend to have answers, I just have opinions like everyone else. I do know that oftentimes I am a poor philosopher and I like debating questions not many people have answers to…I kind of like it!
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well well an interesting article. A great read, did you also know that churches are exempt from putting in fire extinguishers and fire safety equipment as well. A factory or large business who builds a warehouse or large building have to abide by all the laws of safety. Well churches do not. So that church that was burnt down in gosford not long ago, Coastlife did not have enough sprinklers on the wooden ceiling it went up in smoke and they got their insurance. If a private company not a church had that then guess what the insurance would not have paid them…. Who is paying for that, us the people who pay for our insurance policies. is that fair?
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churhces are required buy OH&S laws to have fire extinguishers, fire exits properly label and evacuation plans and drills.
My churhc starts EVERY service with the emergency information and regulary checks and replaces fire equipment. not becaus ehtye want to but becuase they are legally obligate to ensure our safety. In the same way I do risk assesments when i take my Youth group Kids on an outing.
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Why am I not surprised? There are always exception to the rule and I am certain (at least hope) that many church run organisations employ commonsense when vetting potential applicants.
The hypocrisy of religious organisations never ceases to amaze me. There are many cases of religious clergy indecently dealing with minors, yet to be gay or lesbian or a single parent, is deemed immoral.
In my opinion, all organisations need to follow the anti discrimination laws irrespective of their religious slant. It’s understandable these religious organisations would prefer to employ those of a similar ilk, but to refuse or fire someone for being them, it’s just not on.
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Christians, and ‘the churches’ do deem abuse of children immoral. Whilst terrible things have happened, it does not add to your argument to bring this up. It is akin to introducing the topic of terrorism into a discussion on Islam & relationships.
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Eternity, I respectfully disagree.
Church or religious organisations deem it ok to discriminate against those because of their sexual orientation or marital status, but do nothing about the rampant abuse that has occurred. In fact some who were accused were moved rather than handed to police – which would be the moral thing to do.
When it comes to morality, it seems that there are those in the higher echelons who walk to the beat of a different drum to those who follow. I have many friends and family who are committed Christians and have a faith that at times leaves me envious of their devotion and calm. I don’t believe that any of these people would agree with the idea of being refused a role or sacked because of your personal life.
Just to confirm, I did not suggest it was Christian organisations, rather religious organisations, as I don’t believe that Christians are the only ones who discriminate.
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Religious organisations need to be held to account. Particularly institutions such as religious schools which receive government (both state and federal) funding.
I am a teacher in a public high school. In June last year I was assaulted by a student. The punishment that student received? Three days suspension. The most that could be done.
A few weeks ago I enrolled a new student, who had been expelled from the local Catholic school. For stealing.
Assault? Stealing? Both bad but I know which I feel is worse. However our governments give Catholic (and all independent schools) the right to pick and choose who they enrol and who they expel. Public schools? Can’t expel students until they reach the new minimum school leaving age of 17. Fair? No way!
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I’m not sure how much of a problem this actually is. I was baptised, raised catholic and went to both a catholic primary and secondary school and i have never heard of a situation where an individual was discriminated against in this manner. in fact at my high school the principal was a divorced lady in her 50′s, and a music teacher was a lesbian.
Sure it’s easy to bash the church but i don’t believe it’s warranted in this case.
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Thanks qwerty. I in know way meant this as a church bashing excercise. I am the same as you – went to Catholic Primary school and never encountered a bad example of any of this. But my beef is with politicians who allow these laws in the first place. A great many organisations don’t exclude or discriminate, but some have…and they can do it because our Govt creates a double standard (at the urging of the powers that be within religion, not necessarily those at the grassroots).
I just really believe that when it comes to discrimination laws it should be for everyone, or not at all.
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I know of Catholic schools who employ Jewish and Uniting Church teachers and Jewish schools who employ Christians. A friend of mine’s daughter attended a catholic school and got pregnant in VCE and attended school throughout the pregnancy.
I agree with qwerty that this is much ado about nothing. Would an abortion clinic, employ a committed catholic as their counsellor? I don’t think so!!
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You’ve gotta love (where love = hate) how so many Christians and Christian organisations seem to forget that Jesus, their saviour, was all about the outcasts, the sinners, the people rejected by society. The Church might fire a woman for being, in their eyes, some heathen Jezebel, but if Jesus were around today, he’d offer her a nice glass of Merlot and tell her that she is loved.
I also love how they forget that part about sins being all pretty much equal in the eyes of God (i.e. homosexuality isn’t a “worse” sin than say, being covetous), and about, you know, how we’re all sinners. If they’re going to fire people for being sinners then, well, they’re going to be seriously understaffed until the Second Coming.
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I agree with what you are saying about Jesus and how he would treat any of us sinners – we all are sinners.
What you are forgetting is to look at the parts of the New Testament that give specific instruction on what the leaders / position holders in the church should be and how they should behave.
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Its a tough issue as companies want the best representatives for their business.
But…people make mistakes. I think to be fired for one mistake is bad, but if the worker is continually breaking the ethics of the company then they should be fired.
You sign a contract and there are some moral and ethical parts to the contract that you must abide by. I think if you know you cannot keep with the contract then you shouldnt sign it and take the job.
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Fair enough logic, but does your opinion change if said organisation receives government funding?
Just curious.
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I liked the above comment, thought it was well said and my opinion doesn’t change if the organisation gets government funding, I’m not sure what you’re getting at?
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ok i see now from other comments the thinking ie ‘Any organisation, religious or otherwise, that takes public funding, should be made to comply with ALL anti-discrimination legislation. No exceptions.’
As i don’t know the laws well enouh i don’t know how to respond except that for me it doesn’t make a difference these organisations are doing their best to help our community and i wouldn’t want them to stop
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Yeah, I liked the comment too and thought it seemed intelligently written. That’s why I wondered what they thought about the funding issue, it wasn’t at all argumentative.
My reasoning is that ALL kinds of people pay taxes – regardless of race, sexuality, religion, gender etc. – therefore is it fair that taxpayer’s money funds organisations that exclude said taxpayers? However, I respect your right to your opinion, or even to not have one.
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You’ll enjoy this…check out staff lifestyle requirements of Emmanuel College…
http://www.emmanuel.qld.edu.au/_literature_37368/Application_Form_-_Teaching
Shame on them…
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Oh Dear.
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I don’t actually see the problem… If you are a parent sending your child to a Christian/Catholic school you are expecting the staff to live the values and ethos that that school is promoting.
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The problem is that the values of ethos of that school includes ”No gays“.
If the rationale for that is ”because it’s in the bible“ (Leviticus 18-22) consider the other absurdities in Leviticus, which forbids: eating prawns, wearing clothing made from two different types of material, tattoos, autopsies and beard trimming, to name a few.
If you think it’s ok to disregard those no-nos, why not Leviticus 18-22?
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I don’t have an issue with them saying you should be Christian to teach at a Christian school, but urgh, that’s awful.
Also why is the only sins they are focused on sexual. Jesus said all sins are viewed the same way by God. What about materialism, disrespect for your parents etc?
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A lot of people are using the example that, what I do in my own time is up to me and of no concern to anyone else. As long as I do my job ok, and represent the values of my company while I am in the workplace or representing my workplace in public, then whatever I do in my own time at home is my right and shouldn’t have any effect on my employment.
If thats the case, then why do we scream for every public figure to lose their job when they do something in their own time? Is it because what we do in our own time reflects on us as a person, and the company we work for?
If so, then shouldn’t religions be allowed to expect their staff to live their values outside of the workplace, just like we expect our politicians and other public figures to live their lives in a way that’s consistent with their position of employment?
It seems to me that the peeople who scream the loudest about our public figures doing certain things in their own time, are also the ones who scream ‘discrimination’ when a church expects the same thing from it’s employees.
Expelling gay students from Christian schools, however is over the line, most kids don’t get to choose where they go to school.
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well said
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Such a good point. Hadn’t even thought about it…
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I like what you’ve said here, Jessiegirl.
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Really interesting point! Rightly or wrongly, we seem to hold public figures to a higher regard. I don’t always agree with this higher standard…I certainly don’t believe (just to use one example) that an accountant working for a charity organisation becomes a lesser person because she got knocked up out of wedlock. Just a thought
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Public Figures are just that PUBLIC.
When they take on the job of whatever – celebrity, politician, sports star etc. They are signing up as a PUBLIC figure therefore they are in a sense giving up their right to a private/personal life.
Just like you and I wouldnt go phoning Womans Day or ACA just because we are “with child’, or we have a week long text romance with some random. They are giving up the right to have their indescritions go unknown.
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Great point, it is a myth that what you do after hours doesn’t affect your day-job, just think of the number of people who have lost their job over posting inappropriate things on twitter or facebook.
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Just wondering how it would be viewed if I advertised positions in my business, but stipulated Catholics and Christians need not apply because that disagrees with my beliefs?!
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Then get ready for an anti-discrimination lawsuit.
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Well said Rick!
Australian Human Rights law states that people can’t discriminate against religion. This means that wherever you are employed or go to school- you can’t be expelled because of what faith you practice. Religious freedom is protected. Unfortunately this doesn’t work both ways. Religion has the upper hand. Anti-discrimination laws don’t cover religious discrimination. Seriously, wtf!?
It is freakin scary that religious groups can legally discriminate in ways that no one else can. What the hell happened to the rule of law? The basic rule that all citizens should be treated equally, with the same rights and privileges? Why is it that religion is exempt from this? They’re pointing the middle finger right in front of our faces. The fact that NSW law allows private schools to refuse/expel gay students is truly sad. And this isn’t the first time Religion has been used as an excuse for legitimising discrimination, think back to the Stolen Generation.
Religious freedom doesn’t entail a right to infringe upon everyone else’s freedom and you said it perfectly Rick.
Thanks for putting this up.
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I know it is the unfashionable and unpopular view but yes- they should have the right to discriminate. If people are living contrary to things that the church actually stands for it is hypocritical to hire them as a representative of that church. And if you dont agree, then dont apply for that job.
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Yes – if you are actively representing and promoting that organisation’s interests, i.e. priest etc. I can’t see how this could possibly reasonably apply to an accountant or bookkeeper. Maths teacher – no, scripture teacher, yes.
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Well in a religious school, religion is not confined to religion classes. In some schools prayers are said at the start ofclass, at the start of the day, at the end of the day. A mAths teacher may be a home room teacher and head of a house and be required to conduct prayers, read the Bible. Kids can smell out which teachers are devout and parents are paying for their kids to have a religious evironment.
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Ps I went to an Anglican school, A CAtholic School and private non religious school and found that matters of faith and morals could crop up in any subject. E.g. abortion cropped up as a topic in biology and the teacher gave their personal view as one of the students asked.
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And what about students? Many Christian Schools go from kindergarten to year 12. Do you expect a 5 year old to say to their parents ‘I don’t think I should go to this school Mummy, because when I hit puberty I’m going to realise I’m Gay.’
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Not to mention the adoption issue. Almost all adoptions in Australia are managed by church based organisations who won’t consider gay couples as prospective parents at all.
Gay couples who want to have kids have a hard enough time of it already, and there are plenty of kids in the world who would benefit from 2 loving parents who are committed to raising them, regardless of their sexuality.
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Off the main topic, but I can’t help objecting to the “plenty of kids in the world” line. Fewer than 70 (now probably fewer than 50, the stats come out a few years behind) children per year are available in Australia. Given that 1 in 6-8 couples experience infertility, there is a vast discrepancy between the number of potential parents and the number of children. Overseas adoption is much more limited than you think, and the objection to gay couples there occurs in the parent country, so it doesn’t matter what our opinion of it is locally (ie how much support there is) they will not be allocated a child.
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The Catholic college I teach at in WA has openly gay students and it’s not a problem…
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As a professional working for a consulting services company I am expected to conduct myself in a manner becoming to that organisation whilst I am representing them. The last four words of that statement being the important ones.
On my own ttime and when not representing the company I work for I shall do whatever the hell I like.
From the article above we are discussing a religion’s right to hire staff that in its opinions represents its values.
I can understand, and wholly support, that anyone representing the religion to the community (i.e. pastor, priest, rabbii, sheik, counsellor etc.) be expected to demonstrate that it does in fact ‘walk the walk’ – HOWEVER – I find it extremely difficult to understand how this could reasonably be applied to someone seeking employment in a professional services capacity such as an accountant, bookkeeper, cleaner, maths teacher etc.
It is wholly disenheartening to hear that these organisations, while having absolutely no compunction about discriminating against a single mum or dad seeking a job, continue to protect those that talk the bs-talk but don’t walk the walk. It’s always the ones with the most to hide that are the first to point their fingers at everyone else.
I would suggest that these organisations start cleaning out their own closets rather than poking around inside other people’s bedrooms.
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I have to worry about all the commentators who are concentrating purely on the employment side of this. Did we skim read the part about STUDENTS being EXPELLED on the basis of SEXUALITY? I was Christened Catholic. And Confirmed. I went to Church. Did the Sunday School thing. I was going to be sent to a Catholic School. Then we went Private Non-denominational, thanks to Mum who wasn’t really interested by religion. Considering my 15 year old brother is gay, I’m pretty glad that I didn’t go to a Catholic school. Yes, you can tell me that people can choose where they work. But what about gay children who find the school environment enough of a battlefield without knowing their school could expel them on the grounds of sexuality.
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I currently teach in the Catholic system for the last 5 years and have trained to do so for another 4 years – I have never heard of a student being expelled (or in any ways punished) for being gay. We have openly gay students at the College and it is a non-issue. Has there been a case where this has happened? For the record I see no problem with an employer expecting their staff to ive by the ethos and values that it teachers to students. If I was a parent sending my child to a Caholic school it is what I would expect.
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Actually I think the point of the arguement is, is when you are working for these people.. it is just that… WORK…. Yes – uphold their ethics etc within the workplace but when you are at home you should be able to do what you want.
Im a nurse. I respect my peers and patients while I’m there. I work within my legal bounds etc but when I come home, I should be able to do what I like… I worked in a Catholic hospital in my first 4 years of nursing… but when I finished work for the day, I slept with my boyfriend or went out and boozed etc. People can not fire you for doing what you like in your own private time.
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I couldn’t agree more. What difference does being gay make to the public affairs manager for the Salvos being gay or not? None, to my mind.
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It’s a toss up whether more wars have been fought on religious grounds, than coveting thy neighbour’s territory. Possibly religious grounds, and that’s bad………And no, the church should keep it’s nose out of our lives.
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What if say I worked for the Body Shop, but spent my free time experimenting new cosmetics on animals, should I keep my job?
Or if I worked for a disabled children’s charity, but went around calling those with disabilities “retarded”?
Or I worked as a teacher in an orthodox Jewish synagogue/school, yet didn’t observe Kosher?
When you work for a company or organisation, you have the responsibility to uphold its values. The Catholic Church is not saying “you’re a bad person” because you committed adultery, it’s just saying “you don’t uphold the ethos of our organisation.”
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As mentioned below none of your examples except for the middle one are illegal under Australian law. There’s a difference between ‘values’ and ‘laws’ and the question is why should one groups values be allowed to be ‘above the law’?
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Mmm, this remonds me of when I was on my first year of a teaching degree of uni. I had a tutor who told us about how not all Catholic schools were equal. She went for an interview at one of them and did not tell the panel she was separated (not even divorced), because she knew she would not get the job.
On a similar note, a school in my local area actually interviews STUDENT TEACHERS (who are in the school for between 2-10 weeks depending on their stage of their degree) about if they can not just keep their mouths shut in regards to their beliefs which dont match the schools, but actively promote the school’s beliefs (gay is bad etc).
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Rick – you say you were ‘raised Catholic’, but I have to wonder what that actually entailed. Certainly the nuns never got hold of you! What about that part of the New Testament where Jesus says, ‘As for those who give a bad example to my little ones – better for him that he had never been born!’
You can’t just pick out the ‘gentle Jesus meek and mild’ so beloved of holy card illustrators and Sunday School teachers and leave out the guy swinging the whip around his head in the Temple.
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The bible is different for each and every person. You may read a sentence one way, but i can perceive it another way. That doesnt mean that one person is wrong or right.
There are a lot of contradictions in the bible. This is partly because many people wrote it. It is also because the world has changed sooo much since it was written.
I think it is slightly cruel to question his level of “raised catholic”. it doesnt matter how little or how much you have read of the bible. It touches people in different ways, and people take different messages from it. He has pointed out one aspect, like you have, but to question his knowledge is just mean.
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What are you suggesting would have been different had ‘the nuns’ gotten ‘hold of’ Rick?
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Interesting viewpoint! I am agnostic, to clarify, but I was raised Catholic and I know my Bible. My point (perfectly illustrated by recent comment from Oats of Wrath) is that the New Testament is rather filled with good advice about being a good person. Personally, I don’t need it as I gain my morality elsewhere but really, isn’t christianity about just being a good person?
My being gay has no bearing on whether I am a good person. A friend once tried to tell me gay men are horrible because a group excluded him from a party once. My retort to that was that it wasn’t because they were gay, but because they sounded like dickheads.
I think the whole content of character argument should always rank first…
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…really, isn’t chritianity about just being a good person?’ – not from where i stand – being a christian to me is about admitting that i’m am NOT a good person and that i need salvation, which is why Jesus died on the cross for me, and you and all to forgive our sins. Due to this amazing act of grace i want to strive to be a good person by following God’s commandments, living as God has directed.
Being a ‘good person’ by societies standards is much different to living a ‘christan life’ – i guees there is often an overlap wherein those striving to lead a christian life may then be considered good people
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Any organisation, religious or otherwise, that takes public funding, should be made to comply with ALL anti-discrimination legislation. No exceptions.
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I notice a number of people are saying ‘but what if I don’t have any choice?’ in terms of applying for jobs. Here’s my reply:
If you feel you must apply for the job, then you must also choose to follow the ethos of the organisation you work for. It’s just common courtesy. They pay you to represent them, so do it properly. If you choose to apply for the job, you also choose to abide by the code of behaviour that comes along with it. Don’t bite the hand that feeds you. Or, if you don’t like it, start applying for other jobs.
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Try that argument with Centrelink. They’d love it.
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If you’re employed to dress up as a monkey at a children’s party, don’t go dressed up as a puppy. Or, if you go dressed as a puppy, don’t be surprised when your employer is upset. If you apply for the job, then act the part. That’s all I’m saying. Argue religious freedom back with Centrelink. If they force you to apply for a job which goes against your belief system, that is discrimination.
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And if you’re employed as an accountant but your employer believes that monkey-dressing skills are essential for practising accountancy?
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Sorry, I’m not sure how to read this….trying to juggle kids as well as respond. Are you just making fun of the monkey bit and providing us with some light relief in a sometimes tense argument? Alternatively, are you saying something like sexuality etc isn’t relevant for a job like accountancy and yet it is sometimes made an issue?
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I think you were right the second time. If you were seeking employment with a Catholic organisation as an accountant, your accounting abilities absolutely should mean more than your private life and beliefs.
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I was picking up on the monkey thing – I just meant that sexuality isn’t relevant to a teaching job (or it shouldn’t be, but some employers think it is).
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True. But could PETA, as an animal rights organisation, happily employ an accountant who wore fur in his or her non-work time? Wearing fur is irrelevant for your skill as an accountant, but wouldn’t uphold the values of PETA. In the same way, while sexuality is irrelevant to teaching, what you do/don’t do regarding sex is relevant to a religious organisation, the values it espouses and your role as you represent the school. For an institution where ethics and morals are involved, it’s not only an issue of your skills but also an issue of who you are – which will include your belief system, character, sexuality and so on.
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The difference between your PETA and school example is that- Wearing a fur coat is a choice. Being gay is not. You should only discriminate if you can’t do your job properly and not on grounds of which you cannot change. If you’re wearing a fur coat working in Peta, you’re not doing your job properly. If you’re gay and can’t change that then being banned from a private school is wrong. You’re paying to be at that school, you’re not being paid. Therefore your main function at the school is to learn, not represent the school.
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Yen, i have little personal knowledge/expereince with homosexuality but from my perspective as a christian perhaps the feelings of being attracted to the same sex is not a choice but the choice to act on those feelings and engage in homosexual relations is a choice and that choice goes against what God asks of us.
Your last point seems to refer to a student not an employer so is going down a different track to above
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I think people are missing the point. Saying ‘I went to parochial school and the lesbian principal was awesome so that must be the case for everyone’ is not a reasoned argument.
The primary issue that has been glossed over is the large amount of employment programs various churches now run. As these are primarily replacing Government programs they should be subject to the same regulations.
Religion also has a stranglehold on all schools through SRE which is only just being addressed through ethics classes introduced in some schools.
It’s all very well for people to say ‘well don’t work/go there’ not everyone has the luxury of choice.
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“The primary issue that has been glossed over is the large amount of employment programs various churches now run. As these are primarily replacing Government programs they should be subject to the same regulations.”
Excellent point. In all the talk about schools, I’d forgotten about this.
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Wonderfully put.
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‘I went to parochial school and the lesbian principal was awesome so that must be the case for everyone’
Hmmm. Not sure that I’ve read this line today.
I *have* read statements that start with “In my experience…” that counter the discrimination that the current laws allow as discussed in the original article. I have also read people stating “In my experience…” that show examples of said discrimination. Definitely haven’t seen anyone purporting that ‘I went to parochial school and the lesbian principal was awesome so that must be the case for everyone’ though. No one here has said that their personal experience must be representative of the whole nor argued that it ought to be considered as such.
I did notice this though: Despite the atrocious outdated laws permitting blatant discrimination based on religion, we are able to find many real world instances where this law could easily have been applied but was not, instead inclusion and equality prevailed in those cases. Perfect outcome? No. Long way to go? Yes. But it’s promising. Hurrah for that.
Side note: In NSW SRE is not compulsory, therefore I’m not sure why you think any of the 90 approved religious groups have a stranglehold on schools? Parents have the final word on this one.
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True KS, SRE isn’t compulsory. What happens if you don’t attend though is… nothing.
The student is not allowed to do anything else during the time that other students are at SRE. They can’t play, do sports, even studying is not permitted. For a 6 year old, getting stuck in a room with nothing to do is pretty rough.
And, yeah the lesbian principal bit is an exaggeration but arguments based solely on personal experience are very limited.
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Thank you for taking the time to read that very large reply of mine!
I understand your concerns regarding kids who don’t attend SRE classes and agree that it’s not okay. The activity limitations are not across the board (I know this from 1st hand experience) but they do exist in some schools (also known from 1st hand experience). It is largely dependant on the Principal.
You may be pleased to know that things are changing on that front and soon (if not the case already). Non-denominational Ethics is currently being implemented as of Term One 2011 (ie, now) in primary public schools and scheduled to run at the same time as the existing SRE classes.
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This brings to mind the Hillsong “Shine’ program for girls that was being used by some schools (am not sure if it is still in existence) I was horrified to think that this organisation was able to infiltrate schools so easily.
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I would be soooo pleased for Mia to find a person to post about Hillsong.
Ain’t seen nothing like it..ever..full stop….don’t get me started…
I know u know who I am via email, Lana!!
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It is OUR government outsourcing these programs to “these” organisations, knowing full well their values.
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It WAS our Government. It’s hard to roll back changes of that magnitude.
I’ve no issue with outsourcing employment programs, but the belief system of the organisation taking on helping some of our most vulnerable citizens must be taken into consideration.
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I havent read all 113 comments but has anyone asked for the laws to be changed that allow Aborignal organisations to discriminate against non-aboriginals?
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Oh yeah forgot about those high and mighty, overindulged Aborigines, luxuriating in their extensive exclusive employment opportunities *shakes fist*
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Psuedo, thankyou for using Aborigine (noun), not Aboriginal (verb).
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Do you mean Aboriginal (adjective)? Sorry to be pedantic haha
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You pose an interesting question that I hope that someone will answer without feeling the need to correct your grammar or respond with mock indignation.
I believe that discrimination is discrimination…regardless of where it comes from.
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This is positive discrimination, not negative discrimination
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Really? How do you judge that? Isn’t all discrimination, discrimination?
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You’ll excuse me if I say, “bull”. I realise that you’ve dropped the term “positive discrimination” and in the eyes of some it’s game, set and match to Erin in this debate.
Should a person be out of the running in the employment race because of their sexual orientation, race or religion ? Abso-bloody-lutely not !
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‘should a person be out of the running in the employment race because of their sexual orientation, race or religion – absolutely not!’.
That is exactly right Bradley – it shouldn’t happen but it does – to Aboriginal people every day. That is why ‘positive discrimination’ exists, to even the score.
It also shouldn’t happen to people with a disability, people with a hearing impairment but it does. That is why there is government legislation also designed to assist these people with having a representation in the workplace.
I can’t really understand why people have a problem with this.
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When it suits the personal circumstances of the individual, any type of discrimination that favours them personally, can certainly be viewed as positive.
I don’t care whether the individual be caucasian, Aborigine, Asian or Eskimo. (No doubt I’ll be advised by someone from MENSA that the correct term is Inuit.)
I don’t care if the individual is gay, straight or pansexual.
I don’t care if the individual is fat, thin, tall or short.
I don’t care if the individual is male or female, young or old.
The person best qualified to do the job wins my vote every time !
There….that’s positive.
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Then you live in a la-la land that actually believes that an interviewer is only ever looking for the best person for the job regardless of sex, race, weight, age. That is all nice and warm and fuzzy but it isn’t unfortunately how the real world is.
Me – I’m grateful for positive discrimination. It has allowed me to work alongside a hearing impaired woman for two years who opened up our office to her world. Was she the best person for the job? Probably not – mostly because we had to spend thousands of dollars on communicative equipment that we wouldn’t have otherwise spent, she also couldn’t do a shift manning the phones either so it meant others had to take on her workload. Her being in that job meant she was able to take on a mentoring role for other hearing impaired juniors trying to break through the government ranks on a traineeship. A lot of young hearing impaired people looked up to her. From earning a good salary she was able to support her hearing impaired parents who were poor due to growing up in a time before positive discrimination and not being able to win a decent paying job. If you can’t see the benefits of positive discrimination from that then I feel for you.
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So why can’t a say Catholic organisation diserne the right employees to meet the moral expectations of its clients without fear of a discrimination case? A law to protect them, just as other people who suffer discrimination have…
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Are you trying to relate the ‘lack of power’ the Catholic church holds in society to Aboriginal people/disabled people/hear impaired? You can’t be serious.
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Cos I assume that one of the reasons Aboriginal agencies want aboriginal staff is to provide positive role models to their people, look you too can be a nurse, doctor, teacher, lawyer, aborigines can do anything etc.
Although I generally believe that the person best qualified for a job should get it, I can see the argument for so called Positive discrimination.
However, if you are in favour of aborigines having the right to have aboriginal staff , then I believe it is only logically consistent to allow Church organisations to have staff who are good role models to their people
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I hope you’re kidding. Otherwise that’s an incredibly ignorant thing to say.
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I work in the Catholic School system. When i was employed. part of the expectations of my employment was that I would support the Catholic Ethos of the School. What this meant was that I would actively engage in the liturgical life of the school, teach religion and not teach anything which contradicted the teachings of the Church. As far as I am concerned this is completely reasonable – parents send their students to a Catholic School because (for the most part) they want their children to be educated in an environment that supports their Catholic faith. For the record, I know teachers who are gay, divorced, in defacto relationships had children out of marriage, or aren’t Catholic. It hasn’t made a difference to their being hired/fired or not.
If a teacher stood up in the classroom and told students that well, actually, God doesn’t exist or that the Church is wrong to believe the bible when it says that God designed men and women to be married only, then yes i think they do have cause to be disciplined because they are working for the Church. However, if they were to be fired becuase of what they do on a saturday night then that is not appropriate. In the end, we are all guilty of sin, it is just different from person to person (and it doesn’t define who you are anyway)
Yes, many people believe that the Church is outdated and run by ‘old fuddy duddy men’, but a lot of people don’t. You may not agree with what the Church teaches, but there are very detailed reasons why those beliefs exist, and they’re a lot more complicated than people give the Church credit for. And its not about putting labels on people and claiming superiority or a fear of the unknown, but about living the way that they believe God designed us based on scripture.
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Agreed, many people just believe what they read about the Church’s teaching and have no understanding of the scriptural basis. The 2000 years of further writings and divine inspiration, Just as the author does here, they just want the accpetance of everyone part of the bible, not anything else, like the 10 commandments…Most Catholics accept they are sinners, but they see themselves as different because they are working at trying not to sin In my experiance they are not looking down on everyone else, they pray that like them others can work on turning away from sin.
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Absolutely, well said. The increasing enrolments at religious schools throughout Australia is proof enough that many parents want a religious education for their children. I would expect staff at religious school to either be practising that religion or at least respect the values of that religion while at work.
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The ONLY choices for parents are – government system/religious schools.
I don’t necessarily think that parents want a religious education for their children. I think they are disillusioned with the state system and so are forced into the private religious system. So many families send their children to catholic/christian private schools yet have not actively participated in that religion in decades.
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But in the end they choose faith based schooling and are told what is expected when they enroll. It wouldn’t be fair to change the expectations simply because those people make a choice to move away from the state system for a different reason. Perhaps those who want change should be focussed on public education, not the systemic (catholic) or independent schools.
And Anotherview I still see myself as a sinner, through and through, but you are right about the richness of tradition and theology that backs the teachings of the Church
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Perhaps the government should focus on withdrawing funding from institutions that continue to discriminate in ways that are legislated against in almost every other instance and are therefore acknowledged as wrong.
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Hi Rick. Interesting to hear that you were raised Catholic. I married into a Catholic family. As a divorced Protestant, a few eyebrows were raised at first. But they got to adore my personality, wit and sense of humour.
Every so often, the family, extended family and friends gathers in church for the latest wedding, Christening or funeral. You get to catch up on all of the goss. Whose with who, who has come out, who is about to break up and sin of all sins…divorce, etc.
I’m often surprised by the fact that a number within the family who have come out, are very sincere practising Catholics. They are obviously aware how the church hierarchy regards them, yet they wouldn’t miss Mass if you paid them. They look down their noses at all of the “right” people who are committing those terrible mortal sins, clicking their tongues and shaking their heads in disapproval. That shocks me.
I find it difficult accepting that the discriminated against are so willing to discriminate. Are they just putting on an act or hoping to get their place in Heaven by clicking the tongue and giving the disapproving nod in the presence of those whose opinions they respect ?
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Bradley, how do you think the Church ‘regards them’ (ie, gays?) The church opposes all sexual relationships outside marriage – between men, women, or any combination of the same. It does not oppose gay people. It does not exclude them from mass, from the priesthood or religious life. And difficult though it is for many to understand, many Christian people who are unmarried – or have been legally divorced – struggle to uphold this teaching every day.
As a divorcee, in the eyes of the Church I have no more right to a sex life than a gay couple.
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Perhaps you’re only talking about the Catholic church. Christian churches do commonly discriminate against homosexual persons, both congregationally and ministerially. Most contemporary Christian churches are operating way outside the anti-discrimination laws of this country, and no one in batting an eyelid.
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Yes, I am talking about the Catholic Church, both generally and within my diocese and parish.
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Church is different to the individuals who belong to it. Unfortunately, it is often the people that Bradley was describing, the ones that see themselves on a pedestal and shake their finger at those ‘sinners’ they see around them because they think giving up an hour of their time on a Sunday makes them superior, that do so much damage to the people they judge and the image of the Church. They are no more Christian than someone who claims that God does not exist. You’ve actually touched on a point that is a grievance for many people who take their Christian life seriously.
Jo, what sort of discrimination are you referring to? (that’s not a loaded question, by the way)
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I find that the discrimination in schools more horrific than the work place.
But I’ve known ppm to be fired for less reasons than religious beliefs. One friend was threatened with being fired because she accidentally sent a package by regular mail rather than express post. I’m not even kidding!
I s’pose the question is, how to draw the line? I don’t think it’s as easy as saying don’t discriminate. Last years minister being sacked over attending a strip club shows that there are moral values placed on positions everywhere. From convos had with family over that in incident, they agreed based on the minister being in a position to be bribed
I could se a similar situation occurring with those working for religious organizations, but only those in greater positions of power…
Regardless I’m not a fan of religious organization having a separate law to abide/enforce – it definitely needs to be looked at!!
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If you work for an organisation, you publicly represent them. If on your time you are doing something which is counter to the ethos of an organisation, I think it’s fair enough for them to not choose to employ you. Here are some examples that I don’t think we’d question or call ‘discrimination’ – we’d accept it.
- If you work for a drug-rehab organisation, but in your own time are busy getting stoned it undermines the ethos of the organisation.
- If you work for the military but are sharing confidential information about operations in your private time, you undermine the organisation.
- If you worked for a Gay organisation, but then marched in some kind of anti-gay rally.
I think those examples aren’t that different. If you don’t uphold the values of an organisation, it’s not going to be a good fit. Better that you don’t apply for the job and that they employ someone who genuinely believes the same stuff as them. That’s making sensible choices, not discrimination.
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Well said!
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- If you work for a drug-rehab organisation, but in your own time are busy getting stoned it undermines the ethos of the organisation.
An illegal act.
- If you work for the military but are sharing confidential information about operations in your private time, you undermine the organisation.
An illegal act.
- If you worked for a Gay organisation, but then marched in some kind of anti-gay rally.
Not illegal, just unlikely.
The examples you have given are totally different to the topic of discussion. The rest of Australia has to abide by anti-discrimination LAWS which make it illegal to discriminate but religious groups do not have to abide by the same law despite doing government work.
I don’t have a problem with religious organisations asking their religious employees to uphold the particular religious teachings they hold. I do have a problem when they do it with tax payer dollars and they do it to people who are unable to fend for themselves (e.g. gay youth in religious schools).
It is discrimination to deny someone an education or access to a social service on the basis of their gender or sexuality.
To get away from the schools angle, if the government pays a religious social service organisation money to provide foster carers for example, that organisation should not be allowed to refuse gay carers access to the service. They are providing a government service not a religious lifestyle choice.
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I guess I would still argue that a religious school has the right to ask students, who are participants at the school, who attend according to the organisations’ ethos, to abide by it. If there was no other way to access education or a service, then I agree it IS discrimination. However, we live in a country where we are blessed with many education opportunities. A state-run school has no right to discriminate. A school that articulates the ethos it is guided by has the right to ask people to follow that ethos.
As for tax-payer dollars, I elect people to represent me and allocate funding. I don’t always agree with how it is spent, but that’s just the way it is. If the government chooses to allocate funds to an organisation which subscribes to a particular set of values and is open about those values, then they are entitled to run according to them. The problem is not actually with the organisation – it’s with the funding. That’s the nature of out-sourcing.
If someone went to a clearly Gay dating service and demanded to be placed in a hetero match, they’d be told they were looking in the wrong place and should look elsewhere. Same with these sorts of issues.
Please don’t read me being supportive of discrimination – I’m definitely not in favour of racism, age-ism or any other form of discrimination. People, no matter what their background, have the right to basic life-services. However, I don’t think barring organisations which have a particular ethos from acting according to their clearly set-out codes solves the problem either.
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How does one abide by an ethos if you are born gay? It can’t be reversed. Why should a student be stripped of their education because of their sexual preference?
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They shouldn’t be stripped of their education. But perhaps it’s not the school for them. Perhaps they’d be better in a non-church school. Should the school be stripped of their right to run the school according to a clear ethos?
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They’re not being stripped of their education, let’s not be dramatic.
I work at an all-girls school. Would you argue that boys should be allowed to attend?
Why should they be stipped of their education just because of their gender?
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“As for tax-payer dollars, I elect people to represent me and allocate funding. I don’t always agree with how it is spent, but that’s just the way it is.”
It’s not just the way it is we all have a right to argue for change which is what Rick and others are doing today.
The unfortunate thing is that governments are just as good as setting double standards as the general public (see for example separate but equal debate about gay marriage and the current one where no-one is allowed to be discriminated against except this one group).
The problem with generalised debate is that it misses the shades of grey. To explain what I mean take your example:
“I guess I would still argue that a religious school has the right to ask students, who are participants at the school, who attend according to the organisations’ ethos, to abide by it.”
Imagine that student (who had no choice in what school his parents sent him to) was gay. He hadn’t told his parents because they would throw him out of the house but his school finds out. Is it right for this student to be able to be ‘outed’ figuratively and literally by the school in the name of religious freedom? What happens to that young persons rights to not be discriminated against?
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I agree – we can and should discuss and argue for/against things. As I too am doing. However, we can’t all have a say in how each of our tax-payer dollars are allocated and hence we elect people. That’s all I’m saying. Or trying to, anyway.
In the situation you raise in your final para, it seems to me the issue is actually with the parents if they choose to kick him out. Not the school. And I’m not saying that if I were a teacher at the school I would choose to out him – actually, I’d choose to act with compassion and not ‘out’ him because of his parents. And there’s nothing to say that the school couldn’t do that. However, his individual freedoms shouldn’t negate whether a school can be run according to the belief systems it espouses.
I hear you – grey is the nature of life and it does make for complications! But equally, specific situations don’t negate the general principle. After all, if it means never being able to say that someone shouldn’t be employed because of a differing belief, that would also be discrimination against the organisation itself.
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I think you have provided the best example of what I am saying. By not ‘outing’ that student you are going against the ‘teachings or rules’ of the church that employs you but not everyone is as compassionate as you. The person who abides strictly by their churches teachings and their conditions of employmnet would be ‘forced’ to out that student. If they didn’t ‘out’ the student they could be fired for not doing so.
In my book that ain’t fair, and that shouldn’t be allowed to ‘legally’ happen.
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Two Mummies – yeah, there might be some argy-bargy about that situation! You’re right. But I guess no system is perfect. Including one where an organisation can’t hire/fire/allow participation based on a specific ethos.
I guess it’s working out where you’re willing to compromise/not. I think I’d prefer a system where at an organisational level you can set out guidelines about who is suitable to be involved or not. I think that would generally work better than one where there is no ability to legally make choices about who to hire etc because of race, gender etc where it is in line with the organisation’s moral code/ethos or whatever. I think the key thing is allowing sensible decisions based on the purpose and belief system of the organisation. I think we’d disagree at that point though!
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And, btw, just for the record…I think gay organisations, race-based organisations, age-based organisations, religious organisations etc all should have the right to choose accept/not accept employees and participants based on the ethos of the organisation. I’d fight for the right of any of those groups to do it. It just seems like common sense to me. So please don’t think I’m only pro-religious groups and anti-gay rights in this case. If there was a gay-school, I’d be saying that a Christian teacher shouldn’t teach there or a Christian kid shouldn’t go there either. It wouldn’t be a good fit.
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It’s ok I don’t think you are pro-religious or anti-gay!
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As the above article mentions, if you’re hired as an accountant for a religious organisation but you are not married, how does that relate to the job you were hired to do?
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If you do a great job working for your drug re-hab organisation and get quietly stoned at home, I don’t think that undermines the ethos of that organisation.
Drug use and drug abuse are two different things for a start.
Would you still think it was ok for such a worker to be fired if they had a wine with dinner?
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yes.
And the worker in rehab would fully understand that a wine at dinner could be what has led the people they work with every day to be the people who have to come to rehab.
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Huh?
So a wine with dinner means future heroin addict?
How does your comment relate to mine, I’m confused.
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that would be because (i make the assumption) you havn’t studied all about addictions and do not work in a drug rehab facility to understand the link between the wine.
Alchohol is a drug too.
Most heroin addicts would start out with what society would call a ‘small issue’ addiction first – like for example alcohol, cigarettes, progressing to soft drugs like weed, and continuing to progress small step by small step – with the severity of each new drug blurred by the taking of a small step up to the next drug.
A wine with dinner does not guarentee you to be a future heroin addict, but many who work with drug and alcohol addictions have seen the harm far to closely, and know they would be laughing in the face of those who they are helping if they spend all day/night trying to help them through not drinking at all, and then go home for a drink to cope with the work they have done/enjoy company with friends etc etc…
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When I think about this issue the thought I keep coming back to is – why would I need to be, say, a Catholic, to be an accountant at the Catholic Education Office? I don’t see what my personal beliefs etc have to do with my ability to perform a job. Any organisation that seeks to only employ people from within a narrowly defined group risks missing out on different skills and ideas. I firmly believe that organisations should only be able to discriminate based on skills and abilities, not beliefs, religion or hair colour!
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You don’t have to be, Tracy. As some of others have mentioned you can be gay, divorced, non-Catholic etc and even teach in the Catholic system, so long as when you represent your employer you uphold Catholic teaching. In the case of an accountant (presuming you weren’t a crook!) the issue would be very unlikely to come up. In the case of a teacher that means what others have already said: teaching religious education as the syllabus sets it down, attending liturgies with the children, living out the Gospel values of love, fairness, truth etc.
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As far as I know you do not have to be a catholic to work in such an organisation, you just have to agree not to undermine their ethos.
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correct Josie
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I was just having a conversation with my uncle on Saturday about religions so progressive in the times they started still being bound to that time now by silly men who can’t use their own heads and rely on scriptures written down for a different time, a different society, an altogether a different world.
Stop blaming Jesus, Mohammed et al on your own ignorance, stupidity and outdated views!
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I think many people raise an interesting point by saying that religious organisations have certain values and that in choosing particular hiring policies, they are upholding those values like any other organisation.
however if we are going to allow that, then that would mean we should allow any organisation to be able to say ‘hey, our values also include believing that homosexuals, couples living in sin are bad so we won’t hire them either.’
But we don’t – anti-discrimination legislation is there to ensure employers don’t discriminate on the basis of sex, race, orientation etc.
I just don’t understand why religious organisations get to occupy this special space. Living in a seecular society should mean we don’t have special rules for religion.
Freedom to practice religion must still be within the bounds of our legal system.
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Gee, what you’re saying reflects Rick’s mistaken or misleading comment about an ‘arbitrary set of values’.
The Church did not just wake up one morning and decide that, on the whole, it was against – let’s pick one – promiscuity. For better or for worse, and whether you or I agree with it, the teachings of the Catholic Church (and in fact most Christian churches) are pretty well known and have changed very little over the centuries. The Ten Commandments predate Christianity by 4000 years or more. That’s 6000 years of the same basic guidelines. You can hardly say – ‘wow, I really wanted to work for the Catholic Church but – who knew? – they wouldn’t let me talk to the kids about my habit of picking up men in bars!
As Anotherview and Sarah said above, there’s a lot more to it than just what you hear on A Current Affair and most of it ISN’T even about sex.
In fact you would not necessarily be refused employment if you were living with somebody outside of marriage – I certainly wasn’t. It’s about whether you can represent your employer in the way to which you have agreed when you signed your contract.
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I think the choice of a book written hundreds of years after the events it purported to describe as a book on which you should base your morality is actually quite arbitrary. It has not gotten less arbitrary by simply being around for a longer period of time.
There are things an employer is simply not allowed to put in an employment contract, and those things include ‘be straight’, ‘be married’, ‘be male’, and ‘be Catholic’. No one should be allowed to discriminate on these factors, let alone an organisation that receives as much public funding as religions do.
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You do not, repeat do not, have to be any of those things to work for the Catholic church!
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I needed to be at least one of those things to attend a Catholic primary school.
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“they wouldn’t let me talk to the kids about my habit of picking up men in bars!”
Because that’s what gay men do. Only that. And only gay men. Picking up men in bars & compulsive blabbermouthing.
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See above! Are you assuming that because I am Catholic I am dumb as well? What a discriminatory attitude!
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I actually wasn’t referring to gay men at all, I was talking about a woman who picked up men in bars!
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I went to catholic primary and high schools.
In the year above me, two girls wanted to go to the formal together but were not allowed. They attempted to organise a protest, but it never went ahead under threat of expulsion. Those girls didn’t CHOOSE to go to that Catholic high school – their parents chose that for them.
I don’t agree with the argument that those that fall outside the “acceptable” moral boundaries of these organisations should just choose to avoid them. That’s tantamount to condoning institutionalised discrimination, which – if I read it correctly – is the subject of this article.
I’m not afraid to say that I DO have a problem with people who believe gays, divorcees, non-wed non-virgins etc are ‘sinners’ or in any way less of a person than the next buttoned-up, God-fearing Catholic/Christian/Voodoo Priest/Whatever. I don’t care if that’s what their religion tells them to think. Because they can CHOOSE to avoid that particular belief.
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I like your style!
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While I totally agree with what you’re saying, at my secular, public school we were forbidden to attend our formal unless it was in a male/female pairing, and there was plenty of discrimination from staff, students and parents by those seen as being gay.
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That’s a good point, too. There’s plenty of discrimination in schools regardless of religious affiliation (or lack thereof).
I think it’s when, as a society, we say “discrimination is bad and therefore illegal…except for these guys over here who REALLY believe in it“ we have a problem.
It’s doubly important that schools are discrimination-free zones in the interests of having more non-discriminatory adults around in the future.
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It’s interesting that all of these discussions are about schools. What about other religious-based organizations – how do they fare? I work fir a catholic hospital and I’m happy to say it’s fabulously non-discriminatory.
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There’s a long list of services that religious organisations provide through government contracts….aged care, foster care, housing, employment assistance….I could go on but you get the picture.
Rather than issues with people employed by these organisations there are issues about how they discriminate against people they are supposed to be providing government services too. For example refusing to accept prospective foster parents because they are gay and their particular brand of religion says gay people are evil and are basically unfit to parent.
I am sure that the great majority of these sorts of organisations are great and work indiscriminately among the masses and with the masses. But at the end of the day there is no safety net for those that become victims of the minority. All it takes is one particularly ‘religious’ individual and people’s lives are affected.
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When you are employed by an organisation, no matter who it is, you are asked to support and uphold the values of that organisation. This should determine who you apply for a job with. My personal beliefs mean I would never apply for a job for a gambling organisation or the defence force.
Same as choosing to enrol your child in a particular school. You pick a school based on certain criteria, but if that school happens to be a ‘church’ school as well then that is part and parcel of the choice you have made.
Nobody is forced to work for a particular employer or go to a private school – it is all about personal choice and living with the consequences of your decisions.
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Very well said Anonymous! You have saved me having to write down my opinion. I work in a Catholic School and my contract clearly states that I could be sacked for violating the ethos and beliefs of the Catholic Church.
This is fine by me. If I had a problem with it I would not have chosen to accept my position. There are plenty of other schools to work within.
Everyone has a choice
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Rene, are you Catholic?
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I agree, Anonymous. I work at a very expensive private non-Church school who wouldn’t dream of allowing a poor student to come here. If you can’t pay, you can’t come here. That’s real discrimination! Or not – there are plenty of other schools.
I pay fees to have my sons educated in Catholic schools because I want them to grow up the faith our family shares. I would raise the most serious objection to any school employee who did not live out the Gospel values in their dealings with my children. If you do not wish to work in that environment there are many other workplaces. Where I work I am also expected to behave, or not behave, in certain ways – for instance if I were to take a stand against feminism and order all the girls back to the kitchens I’d last about five minutes!
And as for Rick’s assertion that masturbation could get you fired – really??? Were you planning to do it publicly? Discuss it in the classroom the next day? Then how on earth would anyone know?
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I should clarify my stance just a little. I am referring to religious organisations who exercise their right to exclude or fire. There are many who do not and I think this is full marks to them. And if some Catholic organisations do not need to fire the pregnant single woman, or the exclude the gay kid from school, why do all the rest? It’s the laws I have a problem with. I find most people of faith are very caring, wonderful people. My mother (Catholic) and the Catholic Priest in my hometown are high on this list.
But there simply must come a time when what is good for the goose becomes good for the gander. These are the discrimination laws we all must live by, so why shouldn’t they include religious organisations as well? I sincerely doubt the world would end if they did. What it would end is a terrible double standard which confuses the nature of discrimination in this country. After all, if the churches can legally do it, why can’t I…some might ask. And they do. And they can justify it because that is the law.
And that’s just not OK.
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i went to a catholic school where at least a third of my teachers were gay and most of the teachers divorced. Students of many faiths attended, in fact probably close to half were not actually catholic. We had openly gay students, pregnant students, very very rich students, and students so poor that the school provided them with everything, including books, uniforms, school fees, lunch, extra curricular activities and numerous other things.
i also attended two catholic primary schools of the same environment explained above.
never did i see someone turned away, ostracized or have their freedoms restricted. it just didn’t happen.
discrimination may occur in the church, i’m sure it does just as it does in any big organisation, but in my experience its not the reality, and personally i’ve never seen it.
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I agree. The grass roots of the Catholic Church is far more open and accepting. The controlling hierarchy is not.
What Rick is pointing out that the rules & regulations of the organisation itself are draconian, and at times these rules are brought into play. Which is unfair and discriminatory. Which needs to be changed. But I can’t see that happening in the Sydney diocese any time soon
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I shake my head at the hypocrisy. They won’t employ someone like me, a mother of three who is in a defacto relationship, and a law abiding citizen, but they’ll protect and condone child molesters.
Don’t believe me? Read this site http://brokenrites.alphalink.com.au/
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Why won’t they employ you? I’m a single mum and I work in the Catholic education system.
I was told once though that a divorced person would not be eligible to apply for a job as school principal which did seem a bit harsh. There are two sides to every divorce, after all.
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I’m talking about with these new ‘rights’ given, anon. Perhaps not all Catholic work environments, but the ones exercising this ‘right’.
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oh right thanks for clearing that up!
There are clearly many different facets of this debate!
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Definitely!
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I went to a catholic high school, maybe my school was different to others, but we had two gay teachers, and a single mother. Plus in my year level two guys and a girl who were openly guy. And a girl who was pregnant in year 11 and continued to attend classes until she had the baby, she was not married.
I do get the point of the article, but although the catholic organisations may have the right to discriminate based on religious beliefs, I’m not sure it is all that common. And really, they wouldn’t have many people left to employ if they discounted all the so-called sinners.
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I’m also pretty skeptical about this article. I went to a catholic high school as well and there were divorced teachers and single parent teachers. In fact my religion teacher in year 10 was divorced. There was a pregnant student a couple of years above me. This was back in the early 90′s. I would have thought it would be more tolerant now, not less. Perhaps not.
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I found this article disappointingly sensationalistic. There are enough cases of actual discrimination in our society without having to make them up. Has there ever been a documented case of someone being refused employment due to mastubation?
If someone did talk about their masturbation habits at work, I would find that inappropriate, and potentially grounds for a sexual harassment complaint.
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If a religious organisation gets some of my tax dollars to perform a public service be it teaching or welfare or whatever they should not be allowed to discriminate against anyone.
You want to run a Catholic school and discriminate against people then do it with your own money not mine and not SECULAR Australia’s money.
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Well said. Here’s for a truly secular Australia.
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You make a very good point. I hadn’t considered it this way before.
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Are the schools getting your tax dollars or the tax dollars of the parents who exercise the freedom on choice to send their children there? Tax dollars go to a lot of places that you may not agree with. That’s democracy.
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It doesn’t matter what I agree with what matters is that tax dollars should be spent in accordance to the spirit and effect of the laws of the land…which in Australia’s case include in a non-discriminatory way.
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You would soon see how your taxes went up if the Church schools suddenly disappeared and we all had to pay to educate all the children in the country through our taxes.
I don’t like my tax dollars going to support the military, but in a democracy that’s the way things go.
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Well done Rick.
There was an article in The Age on Feb 13 detailing how in Victoria, the Bailleau government has decided to overturn Labor reforms which “restrict the rights of faith-based organisations to refuse employment and services to people they believe may undermine their beliefs”.
Under the reforms which were set to take place in August, religious organisations would have been subject to the same discrimination laws as any other organisation. However now, religious organisations are free to continue to discriminate against people as they see fit.
Appalling.
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Hey Rick, would you want to work in a hostile environment because they were “made” to let you? I love that my company supports me in all aspects of my life and wouldn’t want to work for a company where bringing my girlfriend to the work christmas party would be uncomfortable at the least and openly hostile at the worst. If the organisation chooses to discriminate on the basis of your sexuality or your belief then it probably isn’t a very pleasant place to work.
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But regular employers have to abide my these laws. And sure, a regular business may not want to employ a black person. Or a gay person. But they don’t get to decide that because that is the law. I’m not saying I would enjoy working for a Church charity but there are some who would. Why should the church be allowed to exclude them where others cannot?
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I think you are kidding yourself a little if you believe that company’s aren’t actually discriminating on the basis of gender, race, sexuality or a whole plethora of other reasons which are unlawful but calling it something else or even not giving a reason for you not getting the position.
I do agree with you that it is a different kettle of fish as far as unfair dismissal goes, if you’d been doing your job well and hiding whatever it was that went against their beliefs successfully and they sack you once they find out then yes they should certainly be held accountable by anti-discrimination law.
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