A recent survey found more than two thirds of us research our medications on-line and half of us turn to “Dr Google” for diagnosis. But how do you know the information you are getting online is accurate? Basically, you don’t. In fact studies show if you search Google for “vaccination”, 60% of the results will not only be misleading but downright scary. In a time when vaccine-preventable diseases such as whooping cough and measles are in the news again, it’s critically important to know the facts about vaccination so that you can protect your kids and yourself.
So, let’s take a look at some of the common myths about vaccination and why they’re wrong.
Myth 1: Vaccines cause autism.
No doubt you’ve heard this myth – it’s been around for some time now. In a nutshell, there is no solid scientific evidence for a link between vaccines and autism. And believe me, science has been looking for well over 14 years. The theory that vaccines cause autism was first suggested by Andrew Wakefield in 1998. Since then, Wakefield’s paper has been discredited and withdrawn from The Lancet and Wakefield has lost his medical licence for showing “callous disregard” for children’s welfare.
Since 1998 there have been countless large and comprehensive studies looking for a link between vaccines and autism, but the evidence keeps coming up negative. The largest study was done in Denmark and covered all children born from January 1991 through December 1998. A total of 537,303 children of which eighty-two percent were vaccinated for MMR were examined and there was no association between vaccination and the development of autistic disorder.
Further, in August 2011, an exhaustive review of the scientific literature by the Institute of Medicine in the US concluded that overall “few health problems are caused by or clearly associated with vaccines”. And when I say “exhaustive review”, I mean 12,000 peer-reviewed articles, covering eight different vaccines were pored over by a committee of 18 experts in the largest review of adverse events associated with vaccines since 1994. It was a thorough and herculean effort concluding that there is no causal relationship between vaccines and autism.
Myth 2: Vaccines contain mercury
Mercury was removed from all routine childhood vaccines in Australia in the year 2000 (with the exception of one type of HepB vaccine which contains trace amounts) and it was never in the MMR vaccine. Prior to 2000, thimerosal, an organomercury compound, was used in the manufacturing process of vaccines as a preservative. The process left only trace amounts in the finished product – you ingest more mercury when you eat a can of tuna than you would ever get from a vaccine. Also there are two types of mercury – methyl mercury is the scary environmental toxin that “bioaccumulates” in your body, and ethyl mercury the type found in thimerosal, which does not bioaccumulate.
If thimerosal was implicated in autism, you would expect a significant drop in cases after its removal. Instead the opposite is true – autism rates continue to rise.
Myth 3: Vaccines contain toxic ingredients

Jenny McCarthy whose son was diagnosed with autism led the charge against vaccinations claiming there was a link between the condition and immunisations.
Look anywhere on the Internet and you’ll find long scary looking lists of chemicals that anti-vaccine advocates claim are present in vaccines. Things such as anti-freeze, formaldehyde, aluminium phosphate, human fetal tissue, monkey kidney and lung cells, and most famously mercury. They also claim vaccines cause diseases such as AIDS, asthma, autism, cancers, diabetes, leukemia, lupus, SIDS, the list goes on. Many of these claims are quite simply untrue. The rest, without exception, misrepresent the facts.
For example, some viruses are grown on cell lines in the laboratory that were obtained from aborted fetal tissue many years ago. When a virus is grown on cells like these, it is extensively purified and many steps later, prepared into a vaccine. To say there are aborted human fetus cells in the vaccine is a bit like saying there is dirt in apples since they were once grown on a tree that grew in dirt. It’s misleading, scaremongering and simply not true. As for formaldehyde, there are trace amounts of formaldehyde in vaccines but much less than what your body naturally produces everyday.
Some vaccines do contain tiny amounts of metals like aluminium which have been used for over 80 years to increase the effectiveness of the vaccine. These are known as “adjuvants” and work like a booster to kick start the immune system into making antibodies. But just as the “dose makes the poison”, the concentrations of these metals are so low as to not be harmful to the body. Similarly, small doses of paracetamol cure pain but large doses have been known to cause liver failure.
Myth 4: Vaccines have never been tested.
All vaccines currently available in Australia must pass stringent safety testing before being approved for use by the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA), which is our government body responsible for regulating pharmaceuticals. Multiple clinical trials for safety and effectiveness are also performed as part of the development process (which takes anywhere between 10 to 15 years, and many millions of dollars) and safety monitoring continues for as long as the vaccine is in use.
For example with the polio vaccine, two million kids were involved in the field trial which was conducted in the US in 1954. More recently, the safety of the new cervical cancer vaccines was studied in large-scale clinical trials involving more than 50,000 people before being licensed for use. Safety continues to be monitored after 35 million doses with the majority of side effects being fever, headache and other minor ailments.
Like any medical procedure there are risks associated with the use of vaccines. This was brought to light in 2010 when dozens of kids suffered high temperatures and convulsions following administration of the flu vaccine. The vaccine was immediately withdrawn from use and the government commenced an investigation.
When people claim that vaccines have “never been tested” they usually mean that they have not undergone randomized placebo controlled trials (RCTs). To do an RCT of a vaccine you would need to take two groups of kids, give one group the vaccine, and the other a placebo, then expose both groups to the disease to see which ones survive. Raise your hand if you can see the problem here…
Not only would such an experiment be unethical, it’s unnecessary. We have extensive evidence demonstrating the effectiveness of vaccines; the eradication of smallpox and the near-eradication of polio from the world are just two examples.
Myth 5: Vaccines don’t work because children who are vaccinated can still get the disease.
No vaccine is 100% effective, and since everybody’s physiology is different, not everyone will develop immunity to the same degree; a vaccine is not a force field. But while you can still breathe in a virus or pick up bacteria off a door handle, the seriousness of the disease will be significantly reduced if you have been vaccinated. In the case of pertussis or whooping cough, severe complications such as seizures and pneumonia occur almost exclusively in unvaccinated people and one in every 200 babies who contract the disease will die.
Also, vaccine-induced and naturally acquired immunity fades over time. Notably, immunity from the whooping cough is not lifelong and infected adults, including child care workers and early years professionals, may be passing the infection on to children. This is why it is so important to get boosters if you are around young kids – especially those who are too young to be vaccinated. If you’re a parent make sure you, the grandparents, and other relatives and friends have boosters before they get to meet baby. Talk to your GP for advice on pertussis boosters (which are free until June 2012 in Victoria).
Myth 6: Improved living standards, not vaccination have reduced disease.
The three most significant factors in the reduction of infectious disease have been clean water, sewerage systems, and vaccination. But even in isolation, vaccination has made a huge dent in reducing rates of disease. Following the introduction of the national meningococcal C immunisation program in January 2003, the number of cases decreased by 39% while numbers of people admitted to hospital with the disease was down by 47%. When the Haemophilus influenzae type B (Hib) vaccination was introduced into Australia in 1992 there was a 94% reduction in cases in children under the age of five (the most frequent illnesses caused by Hib are meningitis, septicemia and pneumonia). Yet living conditions in Australia have changed only marginally since 1992 or 2003. Vaccines have also significantly reduced suffering from the complications of infectious disease. Whilst mortality from polio was less than twenty percent, complications such as paralysis, skeletal deformities, and prolonged immobility during confinement in an iron lung caused significant suffering, all of which were eliminated by widespread vaccination.
Myth 7: Infectious diseases are not serious; children are meant to get them.
Just because they’re called “childhood diseases” doesn’t mean it’s okay for kids to get them and neither are they necessarily benign. Let’s take a look at whooping cough as an example, since Australia has been the grips of an epidemic for several years now.
Whooping cough is much more than “just a bad cough”. Kids often turn blue from lack of oxygen during coughing fits, they may vomit after severe attacks, and even fracture ribs. There is no cure for whooping cough – antibiotics are given to help stop the transmission to others – you just have to hope your immune system can fight it. Severe complications such as pneumonia and brain damage occur almost exclusively in unvaccinated people and in babies under 6 months of age the symptoms can be severe or life threatening. Whooping cough is also known as the 100-day cough making it a chronic and potentially fatal disease.
If you still think infectious diseases are harmless, wander through your local cemetery one day and note how many children died from diseases that we no longer see in society today – stamped out largely due to mass vaccination. Some of us are old enough to remember the images of children in iron lungs and calipers during the scourge of polio, which was wiped out by vaccination.
Myth 8: Vaccines cause or spread the diseases they are supposed to prevent.
Experiencing a slight temperature and/or a sore arm after getting a vaccine is actually a good thing. While some people misinterpret this as “getting the flu after the flu vaccine” it simply indicates that your immune system is responding. Vaccines work by priming your immune system with a part of the disease, usually inactivated particles or a fraction of the organism, so that it can make antibodies. This means next time you come across the disease in the environment your body is ready with an arsenal of antibodies to attack it before it can make you really sick.
Vaccines are not 100% safe – no medical intervention is without risk – and mistakes do happen. In the 1950s in America there was a spate of cases of polio caused by the vaccine, but this was due to a mistake in the manufacturing process and was quickly corrected. Regulations, monitoring and quality control has greatly increased since that time, meaning incidents such as this are very unlikely to be repeated. The risks associated with the disease greatly outweigh the risk from a vaccine.
Myth 9: My child’s immune system will be overwhelmed.
Some parents worry that vaccines weaken or overwhelm the immune system, particularly when given to babies or when multiple vaccines are given at the same time. Children are exposed to many foreign particles on a daily basis through activities such as routine eating, drinking and playing and vaccines contain only a tiny number in comparison to what children encounter every day in their environment. The amount of immune challenges that children fight every day (2,000 — 6,000) is significantly greater than the number of antigens in any combination of vaccines (about 150 for the entire vaccination schedule).
More information: This is certainly not an exhaustive list of myths surrounding vaccination. If you’d like to know more, the following sources contain accurate and easy to read information for parents on vaccination including myths, misconceptions and information about the diseases.
Chain of Protection is an initiative of The National Centre for Immunisation Research and Surveillance (NCIRS) which contains lots of vaccine information, videos and more.
The NCIRS also produce the MMR Decision Aid which is a step-by-step guide to the MMR.
A great general resource for parents wanting to know more about vaccination can be found in the Australian Government publication; Understanding Childhood Immunisation Booklet (highly recommended)
General questions about vaccination can be found on the Australian Governments website; Frequently asked Questions About Immunisation
For more detailed information about vaccines, with references to scientific studies, see the Australian Government’s Handbook; Immunisation Myths and Realities, Responding to Arguments about Immunisation
A complete schedule of the current vaccinations required under the National Immunisation Program can be found here.
Please note: The AVN has flooded the comments section below with pseudo-science and inflated numbers. We have ourselves noticed many people using the same IP address and now an AVN supporter has admitted to posting at least 30 times from just one user, using fake IP addressed. So you’re aware of the tactics used.
If you’re after a more light hearted parody of the refusal to acknowledge real science, check out this video:
So, any questions?
Dr. Rachael Dunlop is a medical researcher, science communicator and campaigner for science-based medicine in Australia, with a special interest in the anti-vaccination movement and alternative medicine. Rachael started life as a fine artist and graphic designer but was seduced by the secret world of virus and tropical diseases and was lured to university to study science. After 8 years of study in both Adelaide and Sydney, she surfaced with a PhD and an interest in diseases associated with ageing. Now working in medical research she is currently focused on the environmental triggers for motor neuron disease with a special interest in toxins found in blue green algae. Rachael is a vice president of the Australian Skeptics and a contributor to their magazine and website. She is member of the Mystery Investigators, a science show for kids that uses science to explain the strange and unusual such as UFOs and ghosts. Rachael is a reporter for The Skeptic Zone Podcast which reaches over 7000 listeners worldwide every week. She blogs at the Skeptics Book of PoohPooh and tweets at Dr Rachie. Rachael was the winner of the 2010 Shorty Award for Health and enjoys combining her love of science and art to communicate science to the public.










Comments
1,884 Comments so far
Last year I was speaking to my supervisor about being approached by a company to do some research for them. Here is what he had to say-
“If you want to sell your soul to the devil, go for it. One of our professors has just come back from the US who got paid millions to do research. He came back because he could no longer take the pressure to change statistical data when the results do not suit them.”
This makes sense, as if any of you know and understand statistics, there are countless different ways to analysis data. Some statistical procedures gives you more power etc. You can also get non significant results using one analysis, and then use another procedure and get a significant results.
He went on to explain how he once worked for big pharma in his younger days and would rather the peanuts he gets paid from the university. He told me they always made him change his statistical analysis when the results would not make them money. He told me that many researchers decline offers to work for Big Pharma because they would have to let go of their ethics.
This is really scary to know.
Who do we believe? Surely we cannot have all been fooled?
I have met a another researcher who works for Big Pharma. She develops and test vaccines. Very lovely person. She told me that she believes in the childhood vaccines, but is dead against the flu shots.
Now that is scary.
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Why was she against the flu shots?
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Seriously? All you take from unverifiable rumour is why somebody who claims to know somebody claims to have said they’re dead against flu shots?
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Shane, there is no need to be so rude. I was interested so asked a question. I have a right to ask the question. I am not saying i agree with anything written, I just wanted to know the answer as it wasn’t given. You have no right to attack me over that.
For the record, I am not against vaccinations. I support everything Dr Dunlop has said.
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My apologies Fi. I didn’t want to sound rude. Incredulous yes but not rude. Again, my apologies for coming across to strident.
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She was against it. She is a scientist developing vaccines.
She does believe in the childhood vaccines, just not the flu shots. She told me that by the time they work out this years strand, next years will be different.
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Yes. Part this year’s vaccine will be effective against this year’s strain. Flu season is usually pretty long.
A “scientist developing vaccines” does not understand this?
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I thought most of the general public were aware of this. The flu virus mutates quickly. That’s why it changes year to year.
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That is why the scientist told me it is pointless.
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I think to say its pointless is probably a long bow to draw. It’s really only aimed at the more vulnerable : the aged, those with a chronic condition or health workers etc. They’re not compulsory, just encouraged. I think too that this is just one persons opinion.
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Thanks Anonymous (may I call you that?). I am totally swayed by your unverifiable unsubstantiated anecdote.
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You do not need to be swayed. I had this conversation with my supervisor which has made me question my own position on many things.
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I spoke to someone once who claimed his father-in-law (a muslim convert) had a conversation with Neil Armstrong who said that he’d heard the muslim call-to-prayer while in orbit and who had since converted to Islam (on the quiet). So excuse me if I take your anonymous commment about an unverifiable claim from an anonymous professorr with a grain of salt.
What you posted is nothing but pointless propaganda pushing an agenda or at minimum trying to muddy the waters. Shame on you.
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Your comment means nothing. Why?
Well, This person has spoken about their experience. End of story.
Oh. lets just say that the story is true? That is what scares me.
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or how about we just say it’s not? And that Shane was making a very amusing and well made point?
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The data has to be repeatable, that’s the beauty of pure research. If someone fudged the stats, then it comes to light the very next time similar research gets done, and the researcher gets exposed. Peer reviewers are notoriiously strict when it comes to publishing research – the reputation of respectable journals is at stake.
Trust the peer- reviewed scientific papers published in respectable journals, not the anecdotal stories of disgruntled ex-employees.
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Most studies do not get repeated and more importantly, a lot of research when repeated do not get the same results. That is why there is always controversial within the medical and statistical fields.
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Either the research continuing in the same direction won’t be able to be repeated, or multiple papers based on the same research will be debunked ( Wakefield’s/Hewitson monkey studies for example).
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Oh, you would also known that part of the purpose of peer review is so that we do not have to repeat the same experiments again.
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Anonymous, that is just crap. You have no idea how peer review and science actually work do you?
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Yeah. This is totally not how peer review works.
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Hi anon, peer review is not to avoid repeating experiments it is to make sure that the paper approaches their study in a reSonable way and that it places it’s results in the proper context (not overstating results etc). I think you need a little bit more research on statistics, yes you can choose a stats test that will show whether something is significant but that still doesn’t change the data. If a bar graph has visible crossover of error bars most scientists will tend to believe there is not difference ( this is a generalization for simplicity) irrespective of what the stats say. It is also worth noting that a number of papers have been retracted when people looked at the data and the error bars do not look correct, as a rough guide the error bars (SD) should be the square root of the mean. Sorry for the nerd talk
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I agree, the part of the purpose is to ensure quality. AND part of that is to reassure others that it is of good standard, so that repeating is not necessary. Imagine if we were to repeat every single study done? We would not get anywhere and not evolve. So this process is important. However, as a scientist, you can surely understand how human error can occur?
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I am not exactly sure what your point is. Is it that peer review is to avoid replication, if it is then that is completely true. When I review a paper I have to make sure that it is not just doing exactly the same thing as a previous study. If your point is that when studies are repeated they get different results then yes that is also true but these studies are never identical. It is these small methodolical differences that scientists study to determine what is actually happening in the real world. Does the study examine the same population, same ages, same controls, same timespan etc. I have never seen two studies under identical conditions come up with different results (if you know of this occuring please send me a reference). Science is hard because the world is complicated. I am not sure where you think human error is specifically involved , is it in the peer review? in the study design? in the statistical analysis? You appear to be throwing words and statements around but without a clear contention. If you ask me a specific question(s) I am more than happy to try and explain how science works.
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David, I am not sure how educated you are to not get the point?
First, everyone goes on and one about how the studies have been repeated. well. Not true is it?
Second- is that human errory does occur. Are you flawless or something?
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Actually, we say the studies are repeatABLE. Not repeated.
And Yasmin, well spotted and trumpeted that human error, as a phenomenon, does occur, very observant, but you (again) forgot to specify where exactly in specific studies that you think it has come into play.
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Yasmin the results are repeated, not the studies. When you are looking for a ‘scientific answer’ it is about the whole body of evidence, not this paper versus that paper.
So you might test the same vaccine in different populations. You might test it in combination with other vaccines. You might test two doses compared with three doses. You might test with different formulations of adjuvants. You might do an epidemiological study of the incidence of a disease before and after the vaccine came into widespread use. You might do a case control study of a particular reaction.
All completely different studies, looking at very small specific questions. But when they all give the same answers they add up to a robust body of evidence on vaccine safety and efficacy.
And when you get one paper bucking the trend, you can dig deeper to find out why. In the case of Wakefield it was outright fraud. In most other anti-vaccine reviews or studies it tends to be extremely shoddy methodology. They aren’t discounted because people don’t like the answers, they are discounted because they are untrustworthy.
(I should note that Wakefield’s study was not discounted at all, it sparked millions of dollars worth of research. It was only after all the research went against it that the fraud was discovered.)
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Thanks to Dr Dunlop for sticking around to see this out! I wish you were MY doctor.
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Oh boy. A PhD is not a medical doctor. She can’t treat you, but she can sure as hell educate the crap out of you.
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Are you seriously trolling me for saying something positive?
Blimey.
I am aware that a PhD is not a medical doctor, thank you.
I am sure that she took my comment in the spirit in which it was meant.
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If you don’t vaccinate, you could personally be responsible for the death of a child.
The option is there, make the right choice.
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With so much misinformation out there, I think it’s fantastic that you’ve provided accessible, credible information on this important issue.
Well done, team (and Dr Dunlop, of course!)
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NOTE: looking through the hundreds of comments in the backend of the site, I can see the Anti-Vaccination people are up to their usual dirty tricks of linking to bogus crap research and commenting many many times under different names to try and make their cause seem better supported than it is.
People? VACCINATE your babies. Give your children boosters. And get a booster yourself.
And no, I don’t respect other people’s choices to not immunise their kids when those choices have the potential to kill other people’s babies.
It’s like respecting other people’s ‘right’ to drink and drive.
Bollocks to that.
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Hear! Hear! Mia. Thank you. This is a common anti-vaccinationist MO.
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I love you Mia and most of what you stand for. But, your attitude incites hatred .
You seem like a lovely woman, but you really dissapoint me when it comes to your attitude about those who do not vaccinate.
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Mia inciting hatred? She has opined a lack of respect for baby killers. Sorry, was that too strong? It is not the parents who don’t vaccinate so much as the liars promoting an anti-vax agenda that scares parents into not vaccinating that are the problem. You, the liars, are the refuse of humanity. You are directly responsible for the needless suffering and deaths of many babies from PREVENTABLE illnesses. There is the rub. Preventable illnesses.
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Poor @anonymous. Your appeals to emotion are pathetic. When grown-ups make decisions they are aware that there are consequences for those decisions. Mia has made a demonstrable, blunt statement of fact. You want to cry that you are being singled out because you base your selfish decisions on faith, not overwhelming evidence, and you expect reasonable people to feel for your tortured existence?
Grow up, do some reading of reputable sites, and do some introspection; or, simply, keep your demonstrably flawed vaccination opinions to yourself while the grown-ups are talking.
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It is interesting how Mia is allowing such an abusive response on her site.
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Funny that @anonymous‘ “help I’m being repressed” act is being followed by @anonymous‘ “Rachael is a liar” comments from yesterday. The @anonymous act is vaguely familiar in tone, to me, which is helpful, at this particular time.
Only in the world of anti-vaccinationist sock-puppetry does saying “grow-up and have a good, long, hard look at yourself” equate to “abusive”.
Nice try.
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This is an extremely common antivaxer claim, i.e. that telling someone,
“Your belief is wrong and here is credible scientific evidence to demonstrate that”
equals abuse. Antivaxers use that claim to justify censoring every single antivax discussion forum on the Internet – there is not one where contradicting facts are allow to be posted without deletion and banning of the poster.
Of course this is completely ridiculous: just pointing out that an antivaxer is wrong (which they are frequently) is not abuse, it’s a fact. Antivaxers don’t deal with reality at all well though.
As someone else has noted, that is why the cowardly Meryl Dorey does not venture into forums that aren’t censored by antivax moderators: she can’t cope with having her many errors, lies and irrational beliefs debunked publicly, especially in front of her followers.
Antivaxers are a very sad, paranoid little bunch. It would all be very funny, if not for the fact that children’s lives are at stake.
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I fully agree with your statement Mia. If everyone thought like you then I am sure that we would not be having these outbreaks that seem to be more and more frequent.
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Wow Mia, it’s a shame that you can’t bring anything substantial to the discussion and have resorted to just finger pointing and accusations. I agree with anonymous, those types of comments are inciting hatred. But hey, I guess it’s your website so you probably don’t care. And, it’s no wonder that people go under ánonymous’with comments such as that from Shane and Reasonablehank.
It’s not a straightforward issue, there are many shades of grey as to why parents don’t vaccinate. What about the parents of children who have been injured (or in fact died) as as result of vaccines? Suck it up for the greater good?
Or the fact that only select, healthy children who don’t have a history of allergies or auto-immune diseases are included in vaccine trials? I can see why re possible skewing of results etc, but it doesn’t make it any more reassuring that when it is rolled out to the masses it isn’t really known how these children will react. These families are expected to just put their faith into an adverse reactions reporting process (and hope that their child doesn’t react first) – a system that has been shown time and time again to be flawed.
Yes, it is a minority, but the fact is that some children DO react badly to vaccines and there seems to be very little motivation to try and research into why and to try and identify what the risk factors are for children to be in this category. Its as though nobody wants to hear about or acknowlege these children because it might scare people and upset the precious ‘herd immunity’. But, these children deserve a voice too.
I’m not anti vaccine but I am pro-choice and I think that there needs to be a lot more done to make the current mandated schedule safer for all children.
Finger pointing and abusing non-vaccinating families doesn’t help anyone.
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“Wow Mia, it’s a shame that you can’t bring anything substantial to the discussion and have resorted to just finger pointing and accusations. I agree with anonymous, those types of comments are inciting hatred. But hey, I guess it’s your website so you probably don’t care. And, it’s no wonder that people go under ánonymous’with comments such as that from Shane and Reasonablehank.”
Maybe you need to read the article again.
Also, cry me a river.
“What about the parents of children who have been injured (or in fact died) as as result of vaccines?”
Some bluntness is now required. Provide real stats for these injuries. Do not include autism, ADHD, SIDS or Shaken Baby Syndrome (or, as Meryl Dorey so triumphantly calles it, in her inimitable and callous way, “Shaken Maybe Syndrome”). Yes, anti-vaccinationists defend baby murderers and assaulters, blaming instead vaccines for the horrific injuries suffered by babies and toddlers.
“I’m not anti vaccine but I am pro-choice”.
You keep saying that. You know who else says that? Every anti-vaccinationist on the internet.
“have a history of allergies or auto-immune diseases”
Children with a history of allergies or auto-immune disease will always have their medical history taken into account before any attempt at vaccination. That’s how vaccination protocol works. That’s why the rest of us need to vaccinate: to protect children like this who cannot be vaccinated.
“there seems to be very little motivation to try and research into why and to try and identify what the risk factors are for children to be in this category.”
Citation, please. I would need to see some justification for that claim.
Yes, there are real, *rare* AEFI. There are many, many more, not-rare deaths and long term sequelae from vaccine preventable disease. People like you keep spreading debunked myths about non-real vaccine dangers: VPDs will increase; and, more babies die. Nice.
“Finger pointing and abusing non-vaccinating families”
Given the tactics used by the anti-vaccine advocates and others who rely on poor critical thinking to make these decisions which are ultimately a threat to public health (our children, that is), I’m surprised there isn’t more finger-pointing at public health menaces. You make the choice: you live with the consequences. Life, eh?
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I think you have missed my point reasonablehank – one child who is severely injured (or yes, dies) as a result of a vaccine is one child too many. Just as a child who dies of a preventable disease is tragic, so is a child who dies of the vaccine. However, it seems that anyone who raises this issue is accused of being ánti-vaccine’and of spreading lies, because if people hear about it they might think that vaccinating is not safe for their child and then this fear might spread and then there is a breakdown in herd immunity. I understand this fear, it’s about keeping the minority quiet in order to protect the majority. I don’t want to see a rise in preventable diseases either, but I also don’t think it’s being completely fair or honest about the safety of vaccines. For the majority of children, yes, they are probably safe. But until more research is done on the causes of AEFI they are not safe for all children and the problem is, we don’t know which children will be adversely affected. We can guess, based on genetics and family history, but we don’t know.
You ask for citations – on what? My point is there seems to be a distinct lack of research in this area. If I’m wrong, that’s fantastic. From where I sit, it seems that there there is an attitude of these children are in the minority and so therefore, are insignificant. An attitude of them being collatoral damage of sorts as a sad but unpreventable consequence of protecting the herd.
It’s also frustrating that the current vaccination program is a one size fits all approach. Vaccines can no longer be split in Australia – so it becomes an all or nothing choice.
If you can’t question the system, how can we expect it to ever improve?
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“it’s about keeping the minority quiet in order to protect the majority.”
No it’s not. It’s about the general public having access to accurate, reputable, reliable information regarding the real risks of vaccination compared to the real risks of the rise of vaccine preventable diseases in our community.
What “minority” is being kept quiet? The recent WA fluvax debacle was front page news.
“You ask for citations – on what? My point is there seems to be a distinct lack of research in this area. If I’m wrong, that’s fantastic. From where I sit, it seems that there there is an attitude of these children are in the minority and so therefore, are insignificant”
So, you have no basis for your claim, just a gut feeling. You’ve answered this for yourself.
“It’s also frustrating that the current vaccination program is a one size fits all approach. Vaccines can no longer be split in Australia – so it becomes an all or nothing choice.”
The administration of vaccines has been thoroughly researched so as to deliver a overwhelmingly safe (not 100%, no one claims it is), regime for the protection of our children. To split vaccines into more individual shots would counteract your desires: more individual shots means more antigens, more individual needles, more visits to immunisation providers, more chances for that rare AEFI: for what? The whole schedule now contains less antigens than the first vaccine contained by itself.
Which vaccines should be split? And why?
“If you can’t question the system, how can we expect it to ever improve?”
I completely agree. For example there is a big push for a no-fault vaccine injury compensation system in Australia, something which everyone agrees is well past due. If children do suffer the 1 in 1,000,000 serious adverse event, then, the family should be fully compensated for acting in the interests of the community.
Vaccine research is all about safety and efficacy. These issues are already of the highest concern for public health bodies. Spurious and demonstrably wrong information distributed by anti-vaccinationists is a curse on the safe and effective provision of vaccination, not a benefit.
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I really don’t get this idea that ‘they just assume it’s safe’ or ‘there’s no research being done.’
Go to PubMed, type in ‘vaccine allergy’ or whatever particular concern you have and see the thousands of papers appear.
Do you think they pull vaccination schedules out of a hat? They are based on research.
The questions you are asked before your child is vaccinated is not the nurse making idle chit-chat, they are to work out if there’s a contra-indication.
This idea that there isn’t much research done into ingredients or reactions or who should and shouldn’t get vaccines or when they should be given is a bit like the Ravenous Bug Blatter Beast of Traal – people assume that because they can’t see it, it doesn’t exist.
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Ally? What about the parents of babies who have died from whooping cough because organisations such as the deceptively named “Australian Vaccination Network” continue to propagate misinformation designed to freak out parents who mistakenly think they’re getting balanced SCIENTIFIC information from their site?
How about that?
I’ve met those people. I’ve looked at their faces as they cried for their lost babies.
And I’ve seen their bewilderment at not only having needlessly lost a child to a PREVENTABLE disease but then afterwards, being abused, taunted and intimidated by anti-vax organisations who claim they are LYING about how their babies died!
It truly is beyond comprehension.
So I will continue to support vaccination. I will continue to stand beside those campaigning against the AVN and for more awareness about how important it is to seek out REPUTABLE, SCIENTIFIC information about vaccinations not from a bogus website that publishes rubbish but from a doctor, a scientist or a health professional.
And I will go and get a whooping cough booster next week.
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For these parents: just, thank you.
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Mia, I can’t speak for the AVN as I don’t have any affiliation with this organisation. However, you seem to have an agenda – is this whole article aimed at them?
).
Yes, it’s awful when a baby dies from whooping cough, tragic in fact. I’ll not debate you on that.
However, pertussis is a whole other debate in itself. There are a lot of vaccinated children catching this horrible disease and passing it on and there are outbreaks even in communities with high vaccination rates. Did you know that the University of NSW did a study last year which showed that the vaccine is losing its effectiveness because the bacterium has evolved since the vaccine was changed to the acellular verstion? http://www.unsw.edu.au/news/pad/articles/2010/feb/Whooping_cough.html (also has the link to the original study – you’ll be pleased to know it’s peer reviewed and scientific
There are many, many vaccinated people out there spreading it around and thinking that their bad cough couldn’t possibly be whooping cough because they are ‘protected’. Sure, boosters are important (yes, I’ve had mine in case you’re wondering), but people also have to know that it isn’t 100% effective (not even close given that it doesn’t cover all the strains) and if your child has a bad cough it could still be whooping cough, even without the ‘whoop’ and it is worth getting tested. Pointing the finger at unvaccinated children/families is misguided and generally untrue. My stance is that we need to start improving our vaccination schedule to make it more effective, safer and in recognition that a one size fits all approach is not the most effective. People need to stop using a very small minority (unvaccinated children) as a scapegoat.
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Hi Ally, I wrote the article so you might like to address questions of agenda to me. Can you provide me with some evidence as to why you think the following, “My stance is that we need to start improving our vaccination schedule to make it more effective, safer and in recognition that a one size fits all approach is not the most effective.”
Do you have some evidence for this?
I have addressed the issue of problems with the pertussis vaccine in the comments already. See the full article on the recent pertussis conference here http://www.sciencealert.com.au/opinions/20110709-22584.html
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Thanks for the link Rachael, although I must point out that it actually verifies what I have said – to quote: ‘In fact, most people who get this disease have had at least one dose of the pertusis vaccine”.
So simply blaming the unvaccinated for an outbreak or the death of a baby from whooping cough is short-sighted. There are problems with the vaccine, which I have not once said is a reason to NOT vaccinate, but it is a reason to stop blaming those who don’t.
And evidence for a one size fits all approach not working? The children who do react and yet, there is no way of separating out the vaccines to determine which one is the problem. It is difficult to find a GP who is willing to divert from the official schedule and so parents who have children who don’t fit nicely into the group (albeit most) that are perfectly fine after vaccination, are left with no other option than to not vaccinate. This doesn’t make someone anti-vaccination.
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Beautifully said Ally!
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No-one denies that the whooping cough vaccine wears off.
The rest? Idiotic.
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I’d suggest by reading and reflecting on what you’ve said shows that I’m actually quite open-minded.
I didn’t actually say you were an idiot, I said what is written is idiotic. But, hey, that’s cool. Play the person and not the argument. The AVers have trained you well.
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Ye-es, thats how evolution works, well spotted – but mankind started intervening in “natures way” centuries ago as soon as a fellow man grabbed a few leaves and bandaged his mate’s cut leg while out hunting mammoth, as soon as he passed a willow stick to his feverish mate to chew on.
Altruism – putting yourself out for the well being of your community – that is a huge factor contributing to how we have now evolved.
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Sure, we could all just chew on willow bark instead of taking an aspirin, but the synthesis of the pure salicylic acid component in the form of aspirin tablets means it is more palatable, and easier to take, more uniform in quality, and allows for more precise therapeutic dosages.
Equally important, their convenience in storage and transportation make them more affordable.
If ou have the privileged financial ability to pay 20 bucks more for willow bark capsules, you can.
Tim MInchin says it better than me:
“Alternative Medicine”,
“Has either not been proved to work,
Or been proved not to work.
You know what they call “alternative medicine”
That’s been proved to work?
Medicine.”
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This next comment below was meant to be in reply to kasia’s herbal being best comment…..which has disappeared…
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“…there needs to be a lot more done to make the current mandated schedule safer for all children.”
Apparently, around 2000 Americans die each year as a result of choking on food.
“Children under five and people aged over 65 have the highest death rate due to choking on food. Under five-year olds represent two thirds of all children under 15 who die from choking.”
I’m not anti-food but I think there needs to be a lot more done to make the food we eat safer for everyone. Until that happens, I refuse to feed my children. I mean, let’s face it, one child who dies from eating food is one child too many, isn’t it?
See how that works? Seems silly now, huh?
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“Wow Mia, it’s a shame that you can’t bring anything substantial to the discussion ”
I thought the fact that anti-vaxers were using sock puppets was quite a substantial contribution. What more do you want from Mia that hasn’t been adequately provided by Dr Dunlop and host of well-informed commenters?
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Mia I have always liked you and your site and read regularly, but Im so shocked at your attitude towards non-vaxxers. I mean, do you just want to put a banner ad on your front page saying ‘If you dont vaccinate your kids, dont visit my website’ ? I am genuinely curious – because your attitude seems to be such that you think all non-vaxxers are evil people (baby killers?) and dont even want to let opinions and information be cordially shared – you seem to encourage the vitriol. So I’m curious – are non-vaxxers not welcome here? It sure feels like we arent….
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Great article Dr R.
Has for the non vax public who have posted, you just continue to punch at shadows. Even with strong evidence the antivax movement still continue to believe the likes of the AVN, who can post any rubbish, and you just “believe”. If I read one more time that I have a unvaccinated child who is soooooooo healthy I will scream. When your child comes in contact with a preventable disease, then let me know how healthy they are then!
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Only one name per commenter please.
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Mia, I’m new here but I assume you’re the brains behind the site. If so, let me thank you for allowing this discussion to take place.
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My heart goes out to any family who loses a child however there are tragedies on both sides. Your site is publishing a lot of articles to promote the good of vaccinations. I am not against vaccinations, however, if everyone is so adamant that it should be undertaken by all parents then the system needs to be fair for all. As Dr Heath Kelly, who heads the epidemiology unit at the Victorian Infectious Diseases Reference Lab argues “that the community owes a “debt of gratitude” to the children harmed by vaccines given to provide the community with “herd immunity” against some of the world’s most dangerous diseases”. I have no problem with anything Dr Rachel Dunlop has said but if she and everyone else who commented insisting vaccinations should be mandatory then the system then “put your money where your mouth is” so to speak, and support the No-Fault Compensation Scheme that the current federal government is considering at the moment – write a letter in support or sign a petition. As Dr Kelly states “what we are doing as a community in promoting vaccination is protecting children, but once in a million doses something goes wrong”. In a recently published WHO bulletin it was found that 19 other countries already provide automatic compensation to victims of vaccination including NZ, USA, UK, Japan, Denmark, Germany, Sweden, Korea, Tawain, Italy, etc and yet Australia still lags behind.
My baby daughter developed Stevens-Johnson Sydrome after her vaccination which means essentially she burnt from the inside out. She spent two weeks in ICU on a ventilator followed by 9 weeks in the burns unit. She lost all her skin and is now blind in one eye and partially blind in the other. This is amongst other health issues. My daughter is not alone, there are other cases where children who have also suffered severe reactions which have led to life long health issues.
My other daughter is full vaccinated and as I said I have I don’t issue with vaccination as it “benefits the widespread population immunization. However, this means that an individual occaisionally bears a significant burden for the benefit provided to the rest of the population”. As Ethicist Michelle Mello augrues ” in a vaccination program, the injured and uninjured pay unequal shares of the social cost of producing the social good of herd immunity. In line with principals of fairness and solidarity, mechanisms are needed to prevent the uninjured (unintentionally) “free-riding” on the injured”.
I am happy to email copies of this report and correspondence from Nicola Roxon’s office and if you are really interested in increasing the vaccinations rates then maybe you will also provide some discussion on this topic and see how much support you can gather from the people who are so adamant is should be mandatory to help take this further. Maybe you could even get Nicola Roxon to discuss it with you!
I look forward to Dr Dunlops feedback on this also.
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I’m pretty sure Dr Rachie (and many of he like-minded vaccine supporters) are on record as supporting a no-fault compensation scheme for vaccine-injured children.
I’ve also seen them condemn CSL, a vaccine manufacturer that appears to have been somewhat lax in its quality-control.
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I am a well educated caring parent, I have a science degree in genetic and molecular biology and I don’t vaccinate my children. I have an autistic son who was vaccinated until 4 yrs of age. I have a daughter without autism who is unvaccinated except against whopping cough, dip and tet. I choose to risk this vaccination as I weighed up our personal risk factors ( we also have a nephew and niece with autism) and made a decision that whooping cough and tetnus were worth the risk, but the others I have decided to decline. It’s strange that you see un-vax-ers as stupid, reckless and bad parents. If you bother to talk to most of us you will find that rather we have intelligently researched – not those scaremongering sites- have spoken to medical professionals and live most of our days hoping we have made the right choice. When there is an illness in the community I will keep my family home where possible, when we had a measles outbreak in my town I was disgusted to see a family out with their child clearly infected with measles doing their grocery shopping. It is not anti-vaxers spreading disease it is people who don’t quarantine themselves when they are ill.
I was fully vaccinated yet I got whooping cough at 18 mth, German measles at 10 and measles at 12. My son was vaccinated against chicken pox yet he caught it and passed it on to my daughter. Having said that other than chicken pox and a case of pneumonia that landed her in hospital (shortly after her 2 month vax) she is never ill.
I watched my already autistic son slip even further away from my after his 4 yr old vax. We have worked so hard to try and bring him back to this world. I will not risk loosing my daughter to the world of autism until a study is done looking at the effects of vaccinations on those genetically predisposed to autism.
Vaccination is a choice because it isn’t the best choice for every person and a well educated caring parent needs to make that individual choice based on their own risk factors and what they feel they can deal with. For us, nursing my daughter through a possible case of measles is a better choice than watching her disappear into autism.
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Hi Sarah, I doubt anyone would refer to you as an anti-vaxer. Given the circumstances you describe with you kids, it’s even more important that parents get the right/accurate information so your kids can be protected with herd immunity.
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Thank you Rachel for your response to my comment! All I want is for an extensive study to be done on vaccine risk to families with a predisposition that uses a longitudinal study past the age of 9 with an extensive diagnostic criteria assessed by parents, psychologist, OT and teachers. Some of the studies I have read rely on parental observations of outdated and simplistic autistic traits. It has been interesting watching recent studies arise examining the environmental impacts on people genetically predisposed to autism and it would be great to see this continue.
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vaccinations do not necessarily prevent the disease, but (as is the case with whooping cough and chicken pox) it does lessen the impact of the disease, making them far less dangerous. Unfortunately, most of these illnesses are contagious before symptoms appear, which is why they spread so rapidly. You are right that it is important that someone who is contagious or has a high risk of being infected should be quarantined, but since measles is no longer contagious about 4 days after the rash appears perhaps that reckless family you referred to weren’t spreading the disease after all?
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I am so stunned that this article got such a reaction. I just assumed that everybody was just so grateful to be able to keep all their children alive, like I am, that everybody vaccinated their kids.
My nanna was deaf from having mumps as a child, and a great uncle walked with a limp from polio. He said he woke up one morning stiff, and by the afternoon he was in bed, in hospital, and lay there for months. His family was not allowed to visit. He was 7!!
To allow that to happen to my child when I could prevent it, ..
Having realised that there are people (lots and vocal, apparently) that don’t appreciate how many, many lives are saved by vaccines , may I just say to all the scientists and researchers out there, Thankyou.
(I am also very grateful for fever-reducing drugs and antibiotics. Thanks for them too.)
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Why why WHY can’t any of you with anti-vax views scrape up one, just ONE peer reviewed current bit of scientific evidence that shows vaccines are dangerous ? In light of all the “evidence”, surely it would be easy.
If the scientists and the govt and BIg Pharma are in cahoots to “cover up” whatever you think is being covered up – why why WHY can’t one, just ONE ex-govt worker , out of the thousands that would be needed to propegate such a cover-up come forward with a bit of evidence? Most govt workers and scientists I know (sorry, but I don’t know any Big Pharma employees, but I’ll warrant they’re relatively good sorts as well) are pretty moral people and would not hesitate to blow the whistle when humankind is at risk.
I genuinely want to know. I will happily change my tune when the evidence shows up. That’s the beauty of scientific, rational thinking – I am more than willing to join your cause and will scream it from the rooftops……just show me some real evidence.
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shh, you’ll start more conspiracy theories. Ex-gov workers being brainwashed, or culled even, so they can’t go and blow the whistle
But yes I do agree with you and ask also to see this ‘evidence’…
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Hi
Here are a couple of studies for you, in addition to the ones I posted earlier.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20628439
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20711932
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Interesting articles Guest123. Thanks for posting.
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These studies originally appeared in Acta Neurobiologiae Experimentalis – a dodgy journal anyway. Has been dissected and discredited already.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/terrible-anti-vaccine-study-terrible-reporting/
“The first (and really only) thing you need to know about this study is that it involves 9 vaccinated monkeys and 2 controls. That’s right – just 2 controls. The fact that Hewitson bothers to do statistical analysis on such a small set of subjects is laughable
.Taken by itself, this is a worthless study.
The numbers of subjects is too small to do any meaningful analysis. The results are all over the place, and not even consistent with prior publications by the same authors.”
The author of these, Laura Hewittson (and her crony Andrew Wakefield, of the original discredited autism studies) has a huge conflict of interest in this Hep B immunization study – that you can read about here:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/10/some_monkey_business_in_autism_research_1.php
Well, I’ll let someone more eloquent enlighten the forum on the subsequent study listed by Guest 123:
“Andrew Wakefield relegated to a mere “special thanks to” notice tacked onto the end of the mansucript? Remember, Wakefield’s name was featured prominently on the previous incarnations of this study. His fingerprints are all over it. By any rights he should be the senior author on the paper, but he isn’t. I can only guess it’s that the reason is that his name and reputation are so toxic that the appearance of the Wakefield moniker on a submitted manuscript would guarantee that it won’t be accepted even in an apparently bottom-feeding journal like Acta Neurobiologiae Experimentalis. Actually, any journal that would accept a journal article this bad by Wakefield’s protégé, is almost by definition a bottom-feeding journal, but if you have any doubts, check out the rest of the issue, which contains not one but two articles by those masters of autism quackery, Mark and David Geier, originators of the Lupron protocol, not to mention an article by Hitlan and DeSoto. Truly, it’s a cornucopia of bad autism science!
“Actually, were it not for the abuse of primates, a part of me would hope the anti-vaccine movement keeps studies like this coming. Nothing destroys their scientific reputation faster than such mind-meltingly awful science. It’s so bad that each study like this can only guarantee further scientific marginalization of these cranks. It also provides excellent blog fodder, although too much risks frying my fragile eggshell mind.”
So many holes in this study it’s an absolute insult to science.
Too bad it’s such a crime that so many monkeys had to give their lives in the service of such bad science. Blog fodder and discrediting the anti-vaccine movement aren’t worth the loss of primate life.”
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/07/too_much_vaccineautism_monkey_business_f.php
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re: Andrew Wakefield
http://vaccineepidemic.com/images/vech25.pdf
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And the author of that?
Mary Holland, head of a crew of anti-vaccine lawyers co-author of Vaccine Epidemic: How Corporate Greed, Biased Science, and Coercive Government Threaten Our Human Rights, Our Health, and Our Children, published a highly touted (by Generation Rescue and other anti-vaccine groups.
Keep em coming 123, this is FUN!!
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Oh Laura Hewitson, sorry Jane I missed this. LH has a child who is a petitioner in the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program – there might be a conflict of interest here. She also published the monkey study with Wakefield that was withdrawn. http://scepticsbook.com/2010/02/13/and-so-it-begins-to-unravel-for-wakefield/
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The first paper you posted is a bogus study and has been recognized as such by the scientific community. A bogus “pilot” study using 9 animals in the experimental group versus 2 in the control group has no scientific basis. It is grasping at straws at best:
http://www.ane.pl/pdf/7114.pdf
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Wow, you guys are really nasty, aren’t you? Trying to ridicule people that don’t agree with you. I respect other people’s beliefs, and I thought that’s what we all should do. I was never trying to “prove” anything (if you’d read my original post you would have seen that). I just put some info out there, and as i said, as far as Laura Hewitson goes, yes I am aware of her situation. But please don’t get me started on conflict of interests, as most of the research you provide is full of it, if you do some digging. As far as Age of Autism, you could say the same for “Science Blogs”. I have been as polite as I can, and still you, Jane DJ, have to be nasty, and that tells me a lot. I am exiting this conversation, not because I don’t have more to share (because I do), but because it is decending into something I don’t want to be involved in. I just really hope for your sake, Jane DJ, that you never have a vaccine injured child and go through what I and others on this board have gone through.
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I do not respect others’ beliefs when they endanger the health of my children.
Just like I do not respect someone’s belief that they can drink and drive safely.
Vaccinate your kids and get a booster for older kids and yourself.
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Yet again I will say only one name per commenter please. This post is full of anti-vaccination nonsense from a very small number of very vocal people posting under different names to make their numbers seem greater.
Which is the way they work from my understanding…..don’t be persuaded by their spurious ‘research’ links. They’re a crock.
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Disagreeing and countering arguments isn’t nasty or mean. It’s disagreeing with and countering arguments. Another of the AVer’s ploys – post bogus studies and then cry “STOP BEING NASTY AND MEAN!!!!” “What about my rights???” “Freedom of speech!!” etc etc. You know they’re not arguments, right?
*The caps and excessive use of question and exclamation marks is intended*
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@Kris2040 you have nailed it in one. Anti-vaccinationists are continually asked to provide evidence for their claims, the onus being on the claimant to prove what they are claiming to be true. It is no one’s fault but their own that they cannot provide any reputable evidence to prove what they are saying is true. Rightly, they are held to account for the paucity of evidence they provide.
Interestingly, this is when the cries of “you are suppressing my freedom of speech” are heard from underneath the shifted goalposts. This is not a freedom of speech issue, as health freedom warriors, like Meryl Dorey, would have everyone believe. It is about backing up your demonstrably wrong claims and, then, when you can’t, accepting that you are wrong, adjusting your claims to fit in with what can be proven to be true. Anti-vaccinationists cannot do this. This is why they will be continually held to account for the danger to society that they are.
Anti-vaccinationism is a cult, reliant upon belief, poor researchers, and logical fallacies, not evidence.
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Happy to be labelled meanie if it means that others reading this get to see that the scientific evidence is that vaccines are safe, they protect children and the wider community from disease and that there is no conspiracy. Its that simple.
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Yeah, Hank, had a ripper of a post from some AV sockie on a pro-vax page on facebook – when people asked for references and links, she had to “go and get them, and wants a list”. So apparently she was going to go to the library and find the pertinent parts of studies that clearly aren’t on teh interwebz and type them out. Or something.
I totally agree with you about the cultish nature of the AV movement. They get a whole siege mentality going, it’s quite interesting. Wonder if anyone has studied it?
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@mia @jane DJ @teeps @Kris @DrRachie: I’m trying to think of something more eloquent but I’m just going to say ‘you GO girl’. (you too ReasonableHank!)
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Hey, right back atcha kateinlondon!! THis is important stuff. I don’t normally monitor web discussions till all hours, but this topic is close to my heart. The blanket attempted hijack of this thread by the anitvax types is sinister and downright immoral. I have faith that those in the wider community who might be wavering in their decisions find this discussion and can see for themselves where the solid evidence lies. THumbs up to all who have sensibly contributed, and most of all, kudos to Dr Rachel Dunlop for the great article, and for her continued calm responses. Thanks Mia for creating a fabulous forum for important issues such as this.
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Thanks @kateinlondon. I have been watching you and @Jane DJ with a sense of awe. I, too, don’t usually comment much on article threads as, at times, it can end up being like reading YouTube comments [eyefork].
But, this is important. Rachael’s article is important. It has already received acclaim from Public Health authorities. I am blunt with anti-vaccinationists because I have been involved with the Stop the AVN campaign for over two years and, honestly, I think I have seen the worst of humanity in that time. Dishonesty; fallacies; wilful ignorance; financial agendas often carried out under dubious circumstances (more to come on that, rest assured); hubris; callousness; cruelty beyond imagination; the ticking of a cult checklist; Narcissism; lying (and I use the word “lie” carefully and deliberately and with a wealth of evidence to maintain the accusation).
I know I can come across as abrasive to some readers, but, brevity dictates that the deceit of anti-vaccinationists must be brought to the forefront immediately.
Whack-a-mole is an exhausting activity.
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Thanks Kate – I’ve been a bit busy this time round to deal with the AVers, but I remember your sterling work previously – you go girl!
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I wasn’t medically vaccinated as a child and I was never sick. NEVER. My parents who a big advocates of natural medicine, vaccinated us homoeopathically but now as I get older I realise the reason I probably never got sick was because all the other kids around me WERE vaccinated so there was little disease to be caught.
Parents need to think about this factor. What would happen if everyone just stopped getting vaccinations?
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Good point and it’s a simple answer. Vaccine preventable diseases would come flooding back as we have seen in recent times with measles and whooping cough. Vaccine preventable diseases haven’t gone away (except for smallpox and polio in many countries). They are controlled by clean water, sewerage and vaccination. Take one of these things away and you can guarantee they’ll be back.
As for homeopathy, it doesn’t work. It’s water or sugar with no active ingredients. Homeopathic vaccination cannot and does not work and it’s very dangerous and irresponsible to suggest it does (not that I’m saying you are but some people do). There is no scientifically plausible mechanism by which homeopathy can ever work.
EE, the reason you didn’t get sick probably has something to do with the concept of herd immunity – as you allude to. Put simply this means that if enough people get vaccinated diseases can’t get a hold in a population and they don’t spread. Depending on the disease, we need about 90-95% of all people to be vaccinated for the entire population to be protected. So if you are not vaccinated you are relying on the fact that most other people are and therefore you are protected.
A simple short video explains it here http://www.chainofprotection.org/videos/example-video-and-slider/
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This book answers your question: http://tiny.cc/benenlton
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Well done Dr Rachie, your integrity and energy in the face of both vigorous debate and complete loonyism and, I suspect, a wee bit of Truth-Fiddling, is inspiring. I guess you have to publish such articles at the start of a week’s leave!
My kids are 6 and 8 and I investigated before I vaccinated, as the sticker suggests, (thanks for the idea hippies) reading many peer reviewed articles, incl Wakefield etal, and eventually understood the weight of evidence showed the safety and efficacy of vaccinations is clear. My family has been jabbed many times with no great adverse FX, incl DTP boosters for us oldies. I personally know hundreds of people vaccinated with No Adverse Reactions, so it works. Wow! who needs statistics? Or grammar?
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A very nice article Dr Rachael Dunlop, thank-you for trying to bring the facts of immunisation to the public. I see lots of criticism in the comments and would like to add a positive note as it is always difficult to convince people who will not listen to reason
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Wish there was a vaccine against ignorance and narrow minded thinking.
I feel blessed that I live in a country that allows me to protect and vaccinate my children. How lucky we are.
Great post Rachael, keep up the good work.
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LaLa and Medical Student, thanks for the encouraging comments. Cheers.
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I don’t buy it. I don’t believe you. The medical profession would of course support vaccines as more vaccines means more trips to the doctor. GPs don’t share in the spoils of the diseases vaccines supposedly prevent. Hospitals and specialists do.
The UK Government pays compensation of up to 100,000 pounds for vaccine related problems. Why would they do that if they were all hunky dorey??
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Now along with the conspiracy that scientists are just talking heads for drug companies so they can keep their funding, we also have the conspiracy doctors just give vaccines to line their own pockets.
Dr Rachie didn’t say vaccines were perfect, she said they were better than nothing.
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My daughter is fully vaccinated and hasn’t been to a doctor at all. How do immunisations mean more doctor’s visits when you get your jabs from the community health nurses?
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Actually, less vaccines means more trips to the doctors because all those diseases would be far more prevalent and we’d be taking our kids and ourselves for cures rather than prevention. Your comment is a slap in the face to all those doctors who’s first priority is the the health of those entrusted to their care. You are suggesting that they put their patients at risk for the sake of their wallet.
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I’m sorry, but I think your post is fairly nonsensical. You do realise that councils immunise (and some community health centres) and they have nothing to do with doctors. I’ve worked with immunisation for 5 years and have seen (and heard of 2 adverse reactions) in that time, in our area.
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Oh! You got it one!!! Damn-it, you’re on to us…
I encourage all my patients to drink, smoke, eat chips and lollies, sex without condoms, watch TV, drive everywhere, use the the lift, get an electric wheelchair, avoid stairs and use drugs. I’m also really careful to never wash my hands between patients and make sure I come to work for extra hours whenever I think I’ve got a bug. This obesity epidemic is a GOLDMINE! Pfft, it’s only about $10 for a vaccination, but diabetes will get me that shiny new sports car I’m after.
Note – heavy sarcasm intended.
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I’m sorry but your thinking is totally misguided, Let’s Glow. To see a specialist for a more serious condition, one must first see a GP to obtain a referral. (An exception to this may be if the individual is vomiting uncontrollably and must go to the Emergency Room.) As others have addressed, most school-age children now receive their vaccines through community health programs that operate through schools, not through trips to the doctors. Also, as a specialist, why would Dr Dunlop advocate immunisation if she stands to gain ‘the spoils of the diseases vaccines supposedly prevent’? That in itself would be counter-productive. Perhaps we ought to think logically where these issues are concerned.
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i have never paid a cent for any of my children immunisations. i go to the local immunisation clinic, where it is free.
did i miss the memo where i am meant to be stuff a $50 note down the nurses top when she gives the needles!
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I’d love to jump in and comment here, Dr Dunlop needs all the support she can get in the face of such aggressive (and notably mostly anonymous) attacks.
But, I’m too busy driving my new Mercedes down to the yacht club for lunch, before hopping my private jet… I love pharma money. mwha ha ha ha ha ha.
Let’s see, Andrew Wakefield stood to make a fortune from his “research” and Jenny McCarthy has probably made a fair sum flogging her book (not to mention the big O who gives her so much Oxygen. Most of the “alternative therapists” out there peddling autism cures and homeopathic/herbal/vitamin supplements are all in it to make a buck.
Wake up people, show me all these rich scientists you speak of?
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and here are some more:
http://www.scielo.org.pe/scielo.php?script=sci_abstract&pid=S1025-55832007000300003&lng=en&nrm=iso&tlng=en
http://www.springerlink.com/content/d751p01x01013627/fulltext.pdf
As I said in my first message, not here to change someones mind, just some food for thought.
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# 1 – again, a dodgy study
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/peruvian-hamsters-and-autism-cui-bono/
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Re: “Sciencebasedmedicine.org –
http://www.ageofautism.com/2009/09/part-ii-seed-medias-scienceblogs-a-180-degree-shift-in-reporting.html
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Brainwashed cultists at Age of Autism. Meh.
http://skepacabra.wordpress.com/2009/09/23/strike-2-for-jake-crosby/
http://gothamskeptic.org/age-of-projectionism/
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Jake Crosby – telling the the brainwashed cultists at Age of Autism his view that science can change its mind based on new evidence is akin to political flip-flopping….
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#2 – Research by Majewska – Professor Dorota Majewska”, who apparently is a signatory to the “We support Andy Wakefield” online petition.
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Here is some more:
http://www.ane.pl/pdf/7020.pdf
http://www.ane.pl/pdf/7021.pdf
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#1 Same paper you have already cited – Laura Hewittson – conflict of interest, associate of Wakefield etc etc.
#2 That DeSoto and Hitlan paper is in a focus issue on autism in ANE which selected papers which support autism as vaccine injury!! An issue put together with multiple dodgy vaccines-causing -autism papers (including her own) selectively chosen by Majewska….who supports Wakefield.
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here are some more:
http://www.rescuepost.com/files/vaccines-and-autism-epidemiology-rebuttal.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15082643
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# 1 – written by SAFE Minds :a site which exists for the purpose of frightening parents into endangering their children’s’ lives, using the threat of autism. The name “Safe Minds” is supposed to mean “Sensible Action for Ending Mercury-Induced Neurological Disorders”, but if they are concerned about mercury, where are the pages about environmental mercury?
#2 – needs waaay more studies done. http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/33/2/381.full
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Hi
Been reading the comments with interest. I was very pro-vaccination before I had kids (just thought it was the thing everyone did) and even was worried about my daughter when I found out a friend’s daughter was not vaccinated. That was before both my children had vaccine reactions. (they are fully immunised, BTW, i kept doing it because I was assured they would be fine to keep going).
But it lead me on a path of research. Now, I know all about credible research, and looking for scientific studies, not just google.com websites. And that is what I have done.
I don’t want my children to get whooping cough, meales etc, just as much as any of you. I have noticed today, though we expose our children to a lot more than previous generations. I took my 3 day old son to the supermarket, and often to the shops every week. What happened to the days when mum would stay home for the first 6 weeks… maybe a lot of disease wouldn’t be spread to a tiny baby if we went back to that. Check your Vitamin D levels, as low vitamin D levels affect the glutathione in your body (which helps excrete heavy metals). I had/have low Vit D. It should be over 100nmol/L. Maybe our mothers and grandmothers had it right when they gave babies “sun baths”. 20 mins in the middle of the day before you get burnt is all you need to get 10,000 IU of Vit D. The current recommendation for Vit D intake is woefully low, and I recommend reading http://www.vitamindcouncil.org (run by a psychiatrist) for more info. I don’t believe vaccinations cause conditions such as Autism, but could potentially be a trigger in some children. For those that say there is no science on the other side, I have included some below for you.
I don’t intend to change anyones mind. I think that only happens when you go through a personal experience like I did. And everyone is entitled to their opinion. For those that are angry at “anti-vaxers”, if my children were not vaccinated, I would go out of my way to make sure they were not exposed (and not to expose others), like keeping them home from school etc. I think there needs to be give and take on both sides. For what its worth, I have found the pro-vaxers far more nasty and threatening on forums etc, than anti-vaxers, although I know both groups have good and bad. Thats society.
Anyway, please don’t think that people that don’t vaccinate don’t care about your children. I care deeply what happens to all children, and that is one reason why I research this. I don’t try and push my views on others, but happy to give them information if they ask. I hope I haven’t offended anyone with my thoughts, I just wanted to share some of the research I have found.
(the system won’t let me post so many links in one message, so i’ll try and send them in separate messages)
http://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodvaccines/scienceresearch/biologicsresearchareas/ucm127327.htm
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I just read this article. The author Rachael Dunlop is not somebody I would take much notice of. She is from the sceptic society. I heard her on Richard Fidlers Conversations and all she could do for half an hour was belittle, bag and degrade Meryl Dorey, a woman that has more knowledge on vaccination then anybody I know. Whether Meryl has a degree or not is not the question to her knowledge, she has spent over 20 years engrossed in the science of vaccination.
We all make our choices based on our beliefs.
I believe the body is complete. ‘Propping it up’ with medications throughout our life – vitamin K, vaccinations, antibiotics, bonjello, blood pressure tablets, anti-inflammatories and cholesterol lowering drugs. Has our body over the last million plus years got it wrong and is modern science the only thing that will save us???? Surely not!!!
In fact modern pseudo science propped up with drug money (prescribed not illegal) has created a world where not that long ago our grandparents lived till 70 with 15 months of illness before they died, now the elderly on average live 10 years longer but with 15 years of disease and infirmity and drugged to the hilt. The average Australian will consume 46,000 medications in their lifestyle. We have a drug problem in the street but the home drug problem is far worse. Fix the drug problem in the home and you’ll fix the drug problem in the streets.
I’m 51, my father was a pharmacist, I was not vaccinated, I’ve never had an antibiotic, panadol or any form of medication, my children are 22, 20 and 18 and they too were not vaccinated have never had any medications prescribed or other. It fascinates me that no one has bothered to study our immune systems. And it is not luck, it is good management and a belief in the body’s innate ability to grow, repair and fight disease by giving it real food and without interference. This is the philosophy of Vitalism it is an ancient philosophy.
Science is not the be all and end all, it makes mistakes and lots of them, just ask any mother who has had their child vaccinated, Meryl Dorey, Cathy Ledger, Barbara Lo Fisher, Jenny McCarthy and thousands of others that know that it was the vaccine that maimed or killed their child. We’re playing russian roulette with not only vaccines but psychotrophic drugs that we then prescribe to autistic, hyperactive, asperges, ADD children. Last week in Sydney a 10 year old child on psychotrophic drugs killed himself. That’s not normal.
Wake up Rachael Dunlop and see the real sceptic problem and stop hiding behind modern science that is funded by the drug companies that produce the vaccine and psychotrophic drugs. And stop lying to the public. Post me the double blind study done on vaccines, if you can find it. What really gets my goat is that the placebo in vaccine studies is all the ingredients of a vaccine without the attenuated virus. It should be saline, any scientist would know this.
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Modern science keeps you alive. Have you forsaken all of it or do you just pick and choose the bits you want?
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OMG!! Our immune system and heart etc keep us alive…and then maybe if we’re unfortunate enough to have a heart attack or bad accident of some sort then a machine in the back of an ambulance and then a hospital may help keep us alive.
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Signed a DNR request, then, have you?
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“Has our body over the last million plus years got it wrong and is modern science the only thing that will save us????”
Did people live longer without modern science?
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Basically your argument comes down to conspiracy theory that scientists are all keeping quiet on the truth to ensure they keep funding. Time to panic scientists, Cyndi and some north coast hippy have blown your cover.
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You really don’t know what a skeptic is do you?
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Yes, someone is definitely the skeptic here, and it isn’t Rachel Dunlop….
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“I heard her on Richard Fidlers Conversations and all she could do for half an hour was belittle, bag and degrade Meryl Dorey, a woman that has more knowledge on vaccination then anybody I know”
That’s odd cause I only talked about the AVN for a very short time. I was mostly talking about motor neurone disease and the search for a cure. I’m unsure why you would object to that.
“….funded by the drug companies”. Not all research is funded by drug companies. In fact most of is funded by the government, in Australia at least. My funding comes from the NHMRC and donations to charity.
“Whether Meryl has a degree or not is not the question to her knowledge, she has spent over 20 years engrossed in the science of vaccination”.
You can read as much as you like about a topic but if you read the wrong information for 20 years it’s not going to make you right. Just this morning Meryl once again asserted that vaccines cause autism and that Andrew Wakefield’s paper could be cited as evidence.
Let me make this clear. Andrew Wakefield was being paid by lawyers who were assembling a case against vaccine manufacturers, he had a patent on a single measles vaccine, he was developing a diagnostic test which stood to make him ~72 million pounds a year from the new GI illness he claimed to have discovered. He fudged medical records to fit his hypothesis of vaccines causing leaky gut. His PCR results could not be independently reproduced and the lab he used was found to be contaminated with measles virus. His biopsy samples went “missing” when people tried to confirm them.
Wakefield was struck off because he conducted invasive experiments on children for which he did not have the correct ethics. He took blood for control subjects at his son’s birthday party then laughed and joked at a conference about how they fainted and vomited.
This was why he was deemed “unethical, dishonest” and treated kids with “callous disregard”. This is why he was struck off the medical register.
And just to clarify, I’m a Vice President of Australian Skeptics, not the sceptic society.
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Hi Cyndi,
You do know that the Health Care Complaints Commission issued a public warning about Meryl Dorey and the AVN’s vaccine information? After a 12 month investigation as a result of 2 complaints, here is what they found;
The Commission’s investigation established that the AVN website:
• provides information that is solely anti-vaccination
• contains information that is incorrect and misleading
• quotes selectively from research to suggest that vaccination may be dangerous.
On this basis, the Commission recommended to the AVN that it should include a statement in a prominent position on its website to the following effect:
• The AVN’s purpose is to provide information against vaccination, in order to balance what it believes is the substantial amount of pro-vaccination information available elsewhere.
• The information provided by the AVN should not be read as medical advice.
• The decision about whether or not to vaccinate should be made in consultation with a health care provider.
See http://www.hccc.nsw.gov.au/Publications/Media-Releases/PUBLIC-WARNING-/default.aspx
They also lost their charity licence as a result See http://www.olgr.nsw.gov.au/charitable_latest_news.asp & http://www.scribd.com/doc/51133133/OLGR-Letter-to-AVN-Advising-of-Revocation-14-10-10
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Actually, I still have a copy of that “Conversations…” interview with Dr Rachael Dunlop. The Producer sent it to me, with thanks, for suggesting such a wonderful guest for their program. I don’t seem to recall the whole half hour being dedicated to Meryl Dorey, when the topic of the interview was, in fact, Rachael Dunlop. Much of Rachael’s life was covered, especially her important research work, and her former work in other fields such as design.
I do recall a wonderful letter being read to Rachael, from the parents of a baby who died from Pertussis, thanking Rachael for her support during a most distressing time when the grieving family was being vilified by Meryl Dorey, and harassed by members of the Australian Vaccination Network.
Anti-vaxers are nice, eh?
The rest of your comment is standard anti-vaccination babble, and repetition of what has already been shown to be conspiracy twaddle.
I note that you call Rachael a “liar”. Care to back that up, pretty quickly?
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Cyndi I generally love your philosophy on nutrition and I have your books.
I firmly believe that the body is capable of remarkable healing and that in some instances pharmaceuticals do more harm than good.
But on the subject of vaccination we will never agree, and to be honest I am going to look closely at some of your other claims because if you truly hold these beliefs regarding immunisation then you have lost all credibility with me.
You are obviously very healthy and have a strong immune system (which your children must have inherited). To not attribute their not contracting diseases to luck is severely short-sighted. Plus from the ages of your children, they seem to have been lucky to grow up in a population with a higher rate of immunisation – the herd protected them.
How do you explain newborn, exclusively breast-fed babies dying from whooping cough? Surely their amazing bodies and immune systems should be able to fight it? And are you telling me if that was your child that you would happily rely on that rather than administer anti-biotics to save them?
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Chrissy, if exclusively breastfed newborn babies catch whooping cough and die from it, that’s when these heinous arseholes really show their true colours – they then start blaming what the Mum ate, the parents’ vaccination statuses, the phase of the moon and figure out ways to blame the parents. They’re vermin.
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“bag and degrade Meryl Dorey, a woman that has more knowledge on vaccination then anybody I know. Whether Meryl has a degree or not is not the question to her knowledge, she has spent over 20 years engrossed in the science of vaccination.”
Meryl Dorey is a danger to society. What makes you think that she is more expert than immunologists, epidemiologists and GPs? 20 years of looking stuff up on the internet, misquoting studies (of which, she clearly only reads the abstracts to – and still gets that wrong) and outright lying does not make her an expert.
It is because of people such as yourself that articles such as this are written.
Great stuff Rachael, from the frothing outrage from the anti vax community – it seems you are having an impact.
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“… Meryl Dorey, a woman that has more knowledge on vaccination then anybody I know.”
Either you lack any capacity for critical thought, or you know a total of 2 people, one of whom is a goat.
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Hey, don’t diss goats! They’re quite clever.
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And Cindy will sell you a nice book or CD about her beliefs…
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That has to be some of the most incorrect and downright offensive rhetoric I have ever read.
I’m sorry, but the body does not always have an ‘innate ability to grow, repear and fight disease by giving it real food without interference’. Without hourly – actually every minute – ‘interference’ where a pump infuses insulin into my body I would die. A very slow, painful, terrible, horrific death. My own body attacked the insulin-producing cells in my pancreas and the result, 13 years ago, was type 1 diabetes. Nothing I could have done to prevent it and nothing that my body can do to ‘repair’ it.
I am all for people having their own opinions and making decisions for themselves, but you are outright lying to people if you say that there is no need for medication.
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actually modern humans have only been around for 200,000 years or so – but what’s a few years between friends?
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Oi Vay, Cindy, there is no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ in evolution, neither is there perfection. Homo sapiens, and all other biota, are the result of millions of generations of random mutations and selection, but not toward an ultimate perfect goal. We are well adapted, but not perfect, just look under P for Physios in yellow pages to see how many of us need help to keep our quadrupedally evolved spinal columns walking upright. Morbidity and mortality of humans was very high pre-medicine, but also leads to adaptation, but if we can avoid deaths and injuries by smart intervention is that not better? Cindy would you rather die of Bubonic plague or suffer the relatively mild, but well known side FX of a bit of Streptomycin, one of those nasty antibiotics.
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Our wonderfully adept bodies also grow cancerous tumours too….I’m sure that immunologists all over the world would choose to disagree with you.
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Will you prop up your body with medicine if you get cancer?
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” It fascinates me that no one has bothered to study our immune systems.”
Are you for real? I am genuinely interested whether you actually believe that the immune system has not been studied at all.
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Either that or she is referring to her own family’s special immune system.
Either way, clearly no clue to the complexity, expertise, and cost involved in whatever immune system study she is imagining.
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In the US, there’s an urban myth that the Amish don’t vaccinate, and that they don’t have autism. Neither claim is true.
http://autism-news-beat.com/archives/29
Is there a comparable vaccine myth in Australia?
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Is there even an Amish community in Australia? I don’t know!
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I’m guessing getting here would be problematic for the Amish.
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You just made me spit my tea all over my keyboard. V v funny.
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Hahaha!! well played, just laughed out loud at your comment!!!
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How much the pharmaceutical companies pay you to put out bold faced LIES?
1. No definitive conclusion has been made. Autism and mercury poisoning have identical symptoms. It is said to also be a trigger, not a cause. If a child doesn’t have it, they don’t have it. If they do, the vaccines can trigger it.
2.3. The CDC, the manufacturers websites and package inserts all list the ingredients. They don’t deny the toxins, and animal DNA. To make light of poison is crazy. Those things are never supposed to be in your body.
4. They haven’t been tested for long term affects, and there has not one time been a double blind study. They test them by doing them. That is why they changed the polio vaccine. They realized the vaccine was causing polio, so they changed it. Now kids are guinea pigs for this one.
5. At least you admit they aren’t 100%. You can still get sick. Statistically there is a greater chance of reaction to the vaccine, than there is of exposure of the disease.
6. That is true. Saying that isn’t true is just a lie. If you look at the past epidemiology statistics there is a dramatic decline in disease prior to the introduction of vaccines. When we had running water, and better medical care. Only a very slight decrease after vaccine introduction. Don’t lie, you discredit everything you say. This is a bold faced lie, and can be proven to be a lie.
7. I love that you mentioned polio in this one. You proved you have done zero research. Polio 90% of the time, presents as the stomach flu. 2% have complications, and 2% of that 2%, so .04% have permanent damages. When people are told about these diseases, they are onlyl told worst case scenario, not the normal presentation. Sure there are chances of complications, but unless you are immunocompromized, have underlying disorder, or are missing your spleen you are going to be fine.
8. Most vaccines are made with attenuated viruses, which means they are dead or weakened. True. BUT there are some that are live viruses, but ALL shed. You can infect someone with a disease if you were recently vaccinated. They tell cancer patients or people with compromised immune systems to avoid recently vaccinated people for a reason.
9. That is the weakest arugument for the overload I have ever heard. Your body is accustomed to everyday exposure. It is not accustomed to being assaulted and exposed to several different pathogens at one time. Your body was made to handle everyday exposures. That is ridiculous you would even say that. Autoimmune disorders, that do not occur in areas that do not vaccinate are caused by the overwhelming of immune systems.
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seriously – how do you debate this level of crazy? Every single point you have mentioned has been discussed and credible scientific links to prove the point given either in the article or below. You offer up a random selection of constantly trotted out anti-vax nonsense with absolutely no sources. Or reflection on all the information provided below.
Exhausting. Honestly Dr Rachael, I genuinely don’t know how you do it.
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Oh dear…I am definitely a FOR person when it comes to vaccines and, as I have a few friends who are passionately against, I try and be understanding but god, guest’s diatribe gets my blood a’boiling! Just the fact that whooping cough has killed babies should be enough to sway people? People like Guest should go and live in a third world country to get a taste of what living without vaccinations would be like…
Also, it sounds like Guest went to the same website a friend of mine sent as proof. The ‘expert’ was an absolute nutjob – equating vaccinating a child with rape…Their credentials? writing childrens books and enjoying baking. Ridiculous!
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What? Are you casting aspersions on children’s authors and domestic pastry cooks? Surely these are the greatest scientific minds of our times? I mean, if they didn’t have to spend their time fighting the evils of vaccination, I’m sure they’d have solved the mysteries of the Big Bang and the quantum physics that resulted from or preceded it.
And it doesn’t end there. I know that whenver I need my computer repaired, I seek the advice of a hairdresser, any hairdresser – because I can’t trust computer repair shops – those people make their living from ensuring computers keep breaking down.
Nice article Dr Rachie. Bookmarked for future reference.
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After reading some of these comments, I think the nutjobbie in question was Meryl!! I should say that I’m not sure how correct my memory is about the children’s story writing part is (although it was something equally irrelevant) but there was definitely baking there in the bio..I wish I could find the website now!
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“Don’t lie, you discredit everything you say. This is a bold faced lie, and can be proven to be a lie”.
Provide some evidence please.
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@guest, the heroic. Would you care to back up any of your unfounded, heroic, and anonymous assertions that Rachael is a liar? Pretty libellous stuff there. But, easy when you don’t have to answer for your defamatory remarks, isn’t it?
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Every computer that someone posts from has an ISP number visible to the MM forum admin. Pretty sure posts can be traced, so whether one posts under a different pseudonym than normal, or makes up different names for multiple posts (waves at all the anti-vaxers), it is transparent and easily traceable should the need to address libel arise.
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Calling me a liar and hiding behind an anonymous handle. Impressive. *slow clap*
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Am amazing amount of debate on an obviously emotionally charged issue. Rachael – a fantastic article, thank you. I work in the health industry and have been a nurse for more than 20 years, I’ll be immunising my baby as i want to spend the least amount of time in hospital as possible.
Although this is anecdotal evidence, look at the increase in cancer and heart disease in the last 100 years. People as young as 30 having intervention for advanced and life threatening coronary artery disease. I would love to know if the rates of kids with autism is increasing or is it just that now we have a name for it? I’m sure there are lots of adults who would fit very snugly into that diagnosis if their medical history was explored. Medicine is not an exact science, nor has it ever claimed to be, it’s about helping as much as possible and harming as little as possible.
Kid’s Mom – it’s incredibly unfortunate that you know so many people with tragic events in their lives which may or may not be associated with vaccines. I’m wondering if it’s just one Dr (or better yet a dr of naturopathy) saying it’s vaccine overload. I wonder if it’s actually an environmental issue, you know the power lines you live under, or the nuclear waste dump next door. Luckily they’ve all had vaccines in the last 6 months before their illness, otherwise you’d have nothing to blame.
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I just want to add, I find it interesting that people refer to anecdotal evidence of increases of so many diseases over the last 100 years. Considering medicine has been developing over the last, well, THOUSANDS of years and technology has been developing in the over time as well, how many people had these conditions in the past and were never diagnosesd because the research had not been done or the technology was not available? Consider the growing population… and the constant increase of chemicals in the environment, which we have put there! Although the instances of people being diagnosed with these conditions is growing, have you considered that perhaps the rate of saving people from these conditions has also increased because they ARE being diagnosed… just a thought…
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It’s a bit like saying…
“Two hundred years ago no one died in motor vehicle accidents. Since the introduction of seat belts, however, thousands of people die every year in motor vehicle accidents. Clearly seat belts are dangerous.”
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My brother ended up with encephalitis after his 2yr vaccines. The 2 specialist in the hospital DID confirm that it was his 2yr old vaccines that caused the swelling on his brain.
When my mom was 32, she became extremely ill after receiving her Hep B vaccine. Top specialists at UCLA hospital diagnosed her with a rare auto-immune disease that they links to her Hep B vaccine. They claimed they saw a HUGE increase in nurses and doctors after they got their required Hep B vaccine. The package insert for the Hep B vaccine even clearly states that there is an increased risk of auto-immune disease following vaccination.
A baby I nannied for starting at 4 weeks old, was born 100% healthy. ZERO healthy problems. After his 2yr vaccines he started having seizures so bad that they had to put him into a drug induced coma. The doctors confirmed that it was caused from his body being too overwhelmed by all that vaccines he had received the day before.
3 children in my moms group contracted chicken pox after their chicken pox vaccine, one passing it onto his 3 month old baby sister who had to be hospitalized.
1 child in my church nursery I work in contract measles from her MMR, again passing the measles onto her mom, and 2 siblings. Yes, confirmed by her pediatrician that she had “vaccine induced measles”
My friends son had seizures after his 18 month vaccines. Again, so bad he had to be put into a drug induced coma. He is now 2yrs old, and still recovering. He had to learn how to walk again. Before this, he could say over 50 words. He had to learn to talk again.
Another friends son died 4hrs after his 6 month vaccines. Again, doctor diagnose “system overload from vaccines”
My mom, aunt, and uncle were unvaccinated as children. My aunt, and uncle who are 66, and 71yrs old, are still unvaccinated. They are 100% healthy. ZERO health problems. My mom, who got vaccinated as an adult, is the only one who ended up with health problems. My mom had measles, and mumps, my aunt had Rubella, and my uncle had Polio. All recovered just fine, with ZERO lasting effects.
For vaccines reactions to be “so rare” for someone who doesn’t really have a large circle of people that I know, I sure know a LOT of people who have had VERY serious reactions.
Oh, hell, I forget to add MYSELF. Lets see, I had the flu vaccine 16yrs ago. I had the flu HORRIBLY that year. I have not had the flu shot since, and I have not had the flu since. When I was 19 I got the whooping cough vaccine, and what do ya know, 9 months later I had whooping cough for 5 months.
My children are 100% unvaccinated. They are 3 and 5. Other than a sniffle that last TWO days. They have NEVER been sick. No allergies, no nothing. Out of all the kids in my daughters class, she is the ONLY one who did not miss school last year due to being sick with the flu.
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Gosh, I forgot TWO more bad reactions that I personally know.
My friends son ended up with Gullian Barre syndrome after his flu vaccine.
A lady in her 40′s from my church also ended up with Guillian Barre syndrome after her flu vaccine 5yrs ago and is in a wheel chair.
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Once again Walt Disney called, they need new story tellers urgently and they think you will fit the bill perfectly…..cant imagine why
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It sounds like you attract some kind of bad vaccination energy as out of the hundreds (mostly)vaccinated people and children I know, or have known I have NOT ONE vaccination horror story to report.
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The plural of ‘anecdote’ is not ‘data’.
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oh, snap!
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Elegantly put!
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More sample n=1 bs. “I xyz therefore x thousand peer reviewed articles are wrong” are no basis for setting health policy. Thank goodness we don’t do it that way either. Rachael – thanks for the article, although I think these irrational zealots are impossible to convince.
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I have one friend who repeatedly drives after consuming alcohol. He’s never had an accident. I have another friend who doesn’t consume alcohol at all and yet has been hospitalised twice as a result of traffic accidents. She was wearing her seat belt both times.
Oh, I almost forgot. I sometimes speed (it happens, admit it) but the only time I’ve been involved in traffic accidents was when I was not speeding. I was wearing a seat belt each time and yet I was still sore the next day.
The conspiracy of lies, all supposedly based on research, is widespread
Oh, and there’s formaldehyde in the stuff they use to make seat belts. And parachutes!
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I immunise and in the 5 years since I’ve been doing it have seen/heard of 2 adverse reactions.
1: a baby getting BCG went a bit “flat” afterwards. He needed no intervention to come round but we sent him off to hospital in an ambulance anyway. The nurse doing it kept saying that he’d never seen it before.
2: a college had a bad reaction to the flu shot last year. Unsure of the exact reaction, but he’s still with us.
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Hi Rachel, I received a letter about a new flu vaccine for children under 36mths, it offer protection from other strains. Do you know anything about his and have any thoughts or comments about this, I am yet to look into it. I have vaccinated my 16mth old daughter, reading these comments is making my head spin!! I just want what is best for my child.
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Hi Mel, I suggest you speak to your GP. They will be able to advise you on what is best for your daughter
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It’s hard to believe how some people always have to find a scape goat.
Consider that many diseases have been wiped out or near enough to BECAUSE OF THE USE OF VACCINES!!!!
Hey, I’m all for making your own choices, but when there are outbreaks of whooping cough who are the ones getting it? the ones who haven’t been vaccinated or the ones who are too young to have the vaccine. You say your child is more important than the community, but when your child gets whooping cough and then passes it on to your neighbours baby, or your friends baby (and they are severely ill or die!) does that not matter because you made a decision based on zero evidence, to keep your child safe. F**k the rest of the world. If the rest of the community didn’t have their vaccinations there would be a lot more strain on the health system and I bet you would be the first one complaining!
Some people have to have an explanation for everything. Shit happens. Move on. Before blaming vaccines for causing autism, why not think about the chemicals you use in your house every day. How about the chlorinated water you drink every day. Or the processed and chemical ridden foods you eat every day. The chemicals you wash your clothes in?
If you want to be respected for the choices you make – to NOT vaccinate your children – then perhaps you should start respecting the decisions of those who choose to vaccinate their children.
The proof that there are less major outbreaks of diseases and that they can be controlled is MORE than enough evidence to me that I am making the right decision by vaccinating my children, for my children and the broader community.
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I am glad that you are confident and passionate in your position, but I find your manner of expression to be a little brutish and bullying in the way it is coming across.
I respect your decision for YOU, however I dont feel like you should belittle others for making choices that differ from you because they are right for THEM.
Every person’s chemical make up is different, recessed genes can be TRIGGERED by vaccines for carriers of genetic anomalys, just as food can be triggers for allergies.
We do things based on our own personal life experiences. For Example: My son nearly died when he was born, they found out after I couldnt produce enough breast milk for him that he was allergic to milk protein AND lactose intolerant. He reacted to every form of milk product whether it be animal or enhanced formula. Now that he is older he can handle dairy products and small doses. So, I have to monitor that along with a new allergy as well as intolerance to wheat. I do mention to others when I notice infants having similar problems to my son, but I dont force my opinions or beliefs on them.
Inquiring and suggestions go a lot further than self rightiousness and condemnation.
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Well spoken.
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I’m sorry it has come across as ‘brutish and bullying’ but what I am suggesting is not only should anti-vax people show some respect for pro-vax people IF they ever expect to get any in return, but they should look at all the facts before making any decision rather than immediately blaming a vaccine when there quite easily could be MULTIPLE factors for any occurences of autism or other reactions.
Some people won’t look at the facts, they will make a blanket decision just not to vaccinate because someone else claims their child developed autism from it. They don’t consider that all the other chemicals introduced into our environment every day is probably having a huge affect on our health over the span of our life. The amount of chemicals that may be in a vaccine are no comparison to what you inhale and ingest every single day but because a vaccine is a ‘once every few months/years’ thing, rather than daily routine it sticks in people’s minds more and when they feel the need to justify something it’s the first thing that springs to mind.
Now I’m not saying that vaccines don’t cause autism, but where is the evidence to say they do? There are assumptions. What about the reasoning for food allergies. Babies born with immediate allergies, before they have been vaccinated. How can that be justified? Was it something you ate while pregnant? was it a chemical you ingested while you were pregnant? is it just in the genes? regardless of why it happened how many people are going to make the decision to never have any more children because they run the risk of having another child with food allergies? not many I imagine.
I suppose now I’m going to be asked how can I even compare autism to a food allergy. Autism has different levels, as do allergies. They are life-long conditions that can cause a lot of pain and frustration in any family.
When I make the choice to vaccinate I don’t appreciate my kids being referred to as ‘filthy little disease ridden kids’. And if you choose not to vaccinate because you HAVE considered all factors relating to your childs health, go nuts, I couldn’t care less. But don’t shove your disapproval of my decision down my throat. Don’t tell me I don’t have the facts, because although they MAY be some instances where children have reactions to vaccines, there are so many more instances where they don’t.
Then saying that the community doesn’t matter is just plain ignorant. If the majority of the community wasn’t vaccinated there would be so many more health problems than there are. If you decided not to vaccinate because your child is sensitive to other things, you are really then relying on the rest of the community to vaccinate their children so your child isn’t more succeptible.
During pregnancy some women just want to know if their baby is going to be ok, and although they are told there is a 5% chance they might miscarry, they still choose to have an amniocentesis. Although their baby might be 100% healthy, they are willing to take a risk just so they know. That 5% risk would be significantly higher than the risk of vaccinating but people still take that risk. Do we judge them? Hell I don’t, because it’s their choice. If they choose NOT to have the amnio are they being negligent? Of course not, they are letting nature take it’s course and just hope for the best. We do things all the time to look after our kids and ourselves, in a way that we are comfortable with. We have to accept that we have differing opinions, which can be based on other opinions or fact – that is another choice of the decider I suppose. Choosing what you want to believe. I believe in the evidence I have seen and that is enough for me. If you make a decision based on the opinion of someone with no solid evidence that is your choice too I guess (if you can show me a legitimate scientific study showing that vaccines definitely cause autism and show convincing case studies I might just eat my words).
My son was born 3 months early because I had numerous pregnancy complications. People ask me all the time what I think made it happen. I don’t know, and I don’t care to think about it. It happened and it was the shittiest time of my life. My son fortunatley survived but he is going to have complications for life. That’s something I have to deal with but there is no point in me trying to blame it on anyone or anything. I even had the opportunity to blame part of the complication on someone for negligence and for which we have solid evidence. I chose not to pursue this because the time I would have spent procrastinating about something that had happened and I have no further control of, would take away from the valuable time I had to spend with my son. He’s going to need further surgery as a teen and an adult, and even some rehabilitation. We see specialists regularly now and it costs us a damn fortune. I could write an article about the negligence of doctors. I could go on talk shows and tell them that certain medical procedures should be banned because of what they did to my son. I would much rather spend the time with my son thanks.
I am also allergic to dairy, wheat, rice and corn. It sure sucks arse but I don’t try to justify it. I have a hard enough time trying to figure out what I can and cannot eat.
So anyway, I’ve blabbered on for long enough. Don’t disrespect my INFORMED DECISION and I won’t disrespect yours.
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Well said. I totally agree.
A friend of mine is quite passionately against vaccination. She’s a good friend and, otherwise, really switched on. Last year she went crazy posting all these links on facebook (the same ones the ‘antis’ are posting here). I may have responded to some of the earlier ones but I reigned in my passion. I just basically asked her whether she knew the controversy surrounding Wakefield’s autism link. I left it there as the debates on her wall got ugerly and didn’t want to jeopardize our friendship. So yeah, we don’t discuss it. Anyway, I’ve digressed…
This friend posted a link to a harrowing youtube clip about a baby who, after his his Hep B shot, developed a reaction, swelled to twice his size and experienced a long drawn out death. I was bawling and couldn’t get the image out of my mind for at least a day and night.
Now, I believe that it was the vaccine that did it BUT what his parents and others on the anti bandwagon are proposing is that people should not vaccinate their kids against Hep B because of these one in a million tragedies. They don’t seem to get that this shot saves LOTS MORE children from an equally painful death due to Hep B.
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…and that’s just Hep B. Do these people stop and think of a world where we don’t vaccinate? Their biggest argument seems to be death and injuries due to vaccines (unsupported, of course – we’ve well a truly covered that!) but would they feel it justified to have all these children dying and maimed by these preventable diseases instead? Me don’t get!
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I enjoy reading comedy like this
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I still don’t understand why when a woman is pregnant she can’t eat certain things or drink alcohol because it will harm the baby, however, as soon as the baby pops out into the real workd we inject it with various vaccines (eg heb B) Just doesn’t make any sense. Also you can’t tell me that even small amounts of Aluminium, formaldehyde etc…. are safe – makes no sense.
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FACT: Pregnant woman cant eat certailn things because SCIENCE PROVES that some things cause miscarriage.
FACT: Pregnant women shouldn’t drink alcohol because SCIENCE PROVES that it can cause Foetal Alcohol Syndromes
FACT: CHildren can be immunized becasue SCIENCE PROVES that it prevents or reduces the severity of potentially lethal diseases.
I cant see how anyone’s failure to understand or accept proven facts can be seen as debate.
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WOW. Believe it or not I actually am a scientist and because of my education I made sure I educated myself on vaccines. I spent a lot of time researching peer reviewed journals and clinical articles on vaccinations (not the propaganda on some websites). In fact I spent many months trying to convince myself that vaccines were GOOD but the “FACTS” just didn’t add up and nor did the research. I was pro vaccinations before I started reading the “Science” and “FACTS” you mention above. I never thought I would be anti-vaccines, however, there are so many unknowns and I was not willing to risk the health of my child based on the evidence available. Maybe my comments were a bit simplistic (thank you for dumbing it down for me) – my point was simply that women are so careful (and rightly so) when they are pregnant but we have no hesitations about jabbing our bubs with vaccines as soon as they are born – even for conditions which they are extremely unlikely to be exposed to (eg Hep B).
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I believe I made the right choice for my child. By the way, my son is one year old, never vaccinated and hardly ever sick but all of his little friends who are vaccinated are constantly sick. Maybe its just a co-incidence…. Maybe its due to the fact that we have chosen to follow a completly organic diet, get sunshine, exercise, drink chlorine free and fluoride free water – who knows? Until there is better evidence that shows that vaccines are ‘safe’ and their components are safe I will choose not to vaccinate. Everyone is entitled to their choice and opinion.
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another scientist. Excellent. Although I’m not sure too many scientists make decisions on anecdotes. Cause I bet there are a thousand people reading this article who would also tell you that their vaccinated children were also healthy as horses. Personally, I have three, all vaccinated. One occasionally gets sick, the other two never had a moments sickness. Oh, and we also have an organic diet, get sunshine and exercise. We even eat goji berries – that is DEFINITELY it. Not the vaccinations.
Better evidence????? Were the 42 reports that Dr Rachael has linked to below not enough for you? How many exactly would it take to convince you? 50? 80? 200?
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Kate there’s also the 12,000 studies which were looked at for the IOM report. Not all of them were used in the final analysis because of incorrect controls such as no un-vaxed population but a very large catchment was sampled to conclude that “that few health problems are caused by or clearly associated with vaccines”. For some people all the evidence in the world is not enough.
BTW there’s also the evidence from the vaccines court in the US which rejected a link between vaccines, thimerosal and autism last year. Bear in mind that courts require much less stringent evidence than science does – – some refer to it as 50% and a feather.
In the Omnibus trials which was a class action by more than 4000 families to sue Big Pharma for vaccine damage three test cases were presented first as they were considered to be among the strongest therefore most likely to succeed.
Three judges called ‘special masters’, looked at the evidence and rejected a link. Special Master George L Hastings wrote in his judgement on one case that “This case … is not a close case. The overall weight of the evidence is overwhelmingly contrary to the petitioners’ causation theories.”
Patricia Campbell-Smith, special master on another case, said that “The petitioners’ theory of vaccine-related causation is scientifically unsupportable.”
The findings are here http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/node/5026
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The U.S. has also paid out some $2 bilion in compensation for chidren damaged by vaccines — obviously not all are failed submissions. You made it out that all claims are knocked-back.
I see you are a sceptic. I did not know that sceptics also tell half-truths — I am sad for you.
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To Anonymous above me (odd that so many commenters here are hiding behind this moniker), “You made it out that all claims are knocked-back”. In the Class action with 4000 families they were. This is not the only case that has been in the vaccine court. Hannah Poling for example was awarded compensation for the MMR exacerbating her pre-existing mitchondrial disorder. I have acknowledged that vaccines are not 100% safe and cited examples of where mistakes have been made.
Thanks for being sad for me but I’m doing fine
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My first born – healthy as a horse – kid didn’t even throw up until he was over 2! Second born – not a problem until at 7 months, a sniffle turned into
Pneumococcal bacteraemia – about 6 months before they brought in the pneumococcal vaccine. Now preventable with the Pneumovax vaccine. Don’t let any anti-vaxer tell you this vaccine is only for ear infections. I never wish anyone to sit by their llistless, febrile infant for 3 days when the disease is now preventable.
I have an uncle with a withered leg due to polio, I have my friend’s sister childless after her 2 year old son died from Haemophilius influenzae meningitis before the Hib vaccine was developed.
Don’t be lulled into a false sense of security about your organically raised unvaccinated children. Bacteria and viruses are notoriously merciless when it comes to your best intentions. My experience and Microbiology degree tells me so.
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@kateinlondon, will you marry me?
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with pleasure – shall we vaccinate our children?
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If you were a decent scientist you would not be presenting anecdotal stories as if it might be some kind of actual evidence.
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Science???? BS is more like it.
Even the devil can cite scripture.
OH! Wait a minute… You don’t belive in religion either.
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Science adjusts its views based on what’s observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.
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don’t think so.
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I’m sure someone could tell you small amounts of aluminium and formaldehyde are safe (good luck trying to exist without ever coming into contact with either of them), the question is, would you listen? As Dr Rachie wrote, the dose makes the poison. Zinc is toxic too, but we need it. Same for manganese, copper, iodine, cobalt. All these are known toxins yet all are also essential nutrients.
Also, while it might be the case that a pregnant woman is advised to avoid ingesting certain substances, a baby will still be subjected to all manner of things after it “pops out” whether they’re injected or not. For starters, they will be breathing in carbon dioxide – and that stuff’s deadly!
(oops – Andy)
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Hi Rachael, Thanks for the article – it has re-cemented my already rock solid pro-vaxx stance!
I have a question though: can (or why can’t) vaccinations be separated into individual shots? Does it affect their efficacy or is it so there are fewer shots to endure? I often wonder if some parents would be less concerned about the schedule should there be more time between shots etc. My own wonderful G.P. allowed to spread my premmie and super tiny daughter’s schedule over several months which made me far more comfortable with the idea of “overload”.
Is there anywhere that separated vaccinations occur? Or is it likely to ever happen? Thanks!
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When you use clinical terms like “effiacy” it tends to point out the fact that you are pharma insider.
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I use the word efficacy and I’m not in anyway involved in the pharmaceutical industry.
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Would a PR firm or agent be a more appropriate title?
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Dictionary.com – Word of the Day. Try it, you might learn something.
And I’d love to be in Big Pharma considering all the money that seems to be rolling in. Unfortunately my last payslip tells me otherwise.
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No, just demonstrates that you are a reasonably educated person with a decent vocabulary.
Of course for the antivax crowd, educated = bad. You prefer to make your decisions based on stories and feelings rather than evidence don’t you?
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I use the word “efficacy” when discussing things like this – and I’m a graphic artist. But then, I also use words like antepenultimate when others might say “third last”. Maybe I’m just a tosser.
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are all medical professionals considered “pharma insiders?”
it is a word that is commonly used. sorry to rain on your conspiracy parade
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when you use the term “effiacy” it tends to point out the fact that you don’t proof read
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This isn’t a proofreading error, the original poster did not mean ‘efficiency’. I think you may not be aware that efficacy is a real word with a specific meaning. Check out http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/efficacy for a meaning.
By the way, I’m not a “pharma” insider, in my field (education) efficacy has another meaning linked to student beliefs and achievement.
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Look back at Hint’s spelling of “efficacy” to better understand loki’s insightful response.
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LOL!!
Slow clap.
Way to bring down the conspirators!
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Hi Shaezy, I don’t think there’s any reason why you can’t separate vaccines into single ones. The only thing it does is increases the number a child needs to get thus making for a more unpleasant experience for them and more trips to the doctor for you. In your case, your GP was okay with this and he/she probably had good reason to be, especially since your bub was premmie.
For most kids though it’s just not necessary. A study from Pediatrics looked at more than 1,000 children born between 1993 and 1997 at their vaccination schedules up to 1 year of age, and studied their performance 7 to 10 years later on 42 different neuropsychological outcomes.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/125/6/1134.abstract
Timely vaccination was associated with better performance on numerous
outcomes. The less-vaccinated children did not do significantly better on any of the outcomes.
AUTHOR CONCLUSION: This comparison of children vaccinated on time with children whose vaccinations were delayed or incomplete found no benefit in delaying immunizations during the first year of life. For parents who are concerned that children receive too many vaccines too soon, these data may provide reassurance that timely vaccination during infancy has no adverse effect on long-term neuropsychological outcomes.
—
According to this study there’s no real need to separate vaccines for healthy kids. It’s odd that some anti-vaccine advocates call for the separation of vaccines but don’t mention that this would increase kids’ load of preservatives and toxins which they seem to hate so much.
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The calm voice of reason and logic prevails yet again. Thanks Rachel.
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Why didn’t you tell us they only got 12 jabs in Denmark? Thank you for that link. You confirmed that vaccines are to blame.
12 vaccines compared to what we have here. The more vaccines, the more autism eh?
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Have you read the IOM report? http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2011/Adverse-Effects-of-Vaccines-Evidence-and-Causality.aspx
Have you read the 42 studies showing there is no link?
http://www.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf
Have you seen the results of the vaccine court in the US? http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/node/5026
For some people no amount of evidence is enough.
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Conspiracy believers use a common tactic – to find some piece of apparently confirming evidence (or disconfirming evidence subsequently shown to be wrong) and use this to “prove” that ALL disconfirming evidence is wrong.
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This tactic has been used successfully by Big Smoke, Big Oil and now Big climate change denial (supported by lovely people like Koch industries) Strange bedfellows, similar strategies. Just read an article about this today in Time mag, interesting
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2096055,00.html
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Thanks for the explanation!
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Terrific article; thank you. I have type 1 diabetes, and currently there is a lot of work being done into developing a vaccination for this condition. When it is available, my six year old will be one of the first in line to receive the vaccination. I don’t understand how anyone could think it’s a bad idea to vaccinate – and prevent – horrible conditions like type 1 diabetes. And I am saying this as a person who is living an incredibly full and satisfying life with diabetes.
And before anyone even thinks about trying to link increased rates of T1 diabetes with childhood vaccinations, please don’t. That myth has been debunked time and time again.
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What is your source? Where can I find this?
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There are many studies which show no link. Here’s one: http://www.pediatricsdigest.mobi/content/108/6/e112.short
This one from NEJM http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa032665
German BabyDIAB study concurs.
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Would you please provide a link to that study about it being a myth. I need it.
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While I’m not completely against immunisation my 6 month old daughter is currently not immunised. My daughter was born at 35 weeks but in good health, and on her third day of life she was given her hepatitis B immunisation. Whether it’s related or not I don’t know but 4 hours later she had a seizure. Fortunately,she hasn’t had one since and is developing normally, but despite numerous tests no one can really explain why or find anything wrong with her. Although that doesn’t mean she won’t have another seizure in the future.
I always planned to vaccinate but after this incident I am delaying it until I can make a completely informed decision. My paediatrician has supported me on this decision. I refuse to hear any criticism on my decision as it was not an easy one and was very well researched. And I think many parents in my position would do the same.
While I don’t argue that for the large majority of people, vaccination is beneficial and causes no problems, I do believe that serious reactions from vaccines definitely happen and while these are uncommon, they are not rare.
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Well put and i wish you the best with your very difficult decision, as this day and age where we are getting pushed to vaccinate not matter what we must also make it an informed choice not a forced one. Good luck and go with your instincts.
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And this is why it is important for as many others as possible to vaxx their children (and themselves). While you need time to be sure you are ok with vaxxing your child, she needs to be as protected as possible. It’s my responsibility to ensure my family are as safe as they can be from possibly infecting an immuno-compromised child (or adult). My godson was born allergic to practically everything known to man. Thankfully now, he has grown out of a lot of those allergies but his mum was very concerned about immunizations and has chosen to vaxx him much later (he is 11 now and just selectively starting the schedule). Everyone around him made sure they were boosted/vaxxed so we could keep him as safe as possible. So far so good.
I wish you and your daughter the very best x
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I stopped vaccinating because of similar situations after every vaccine my son had administered to him he had neurological and skills set backs. I am sorry but the side effects are can be worse in the vaccine.
For example my father went in for a physical and got a routing tetnus shot and nearly died from Guillan Bare. It is a disease you can get from the flu shot or tetnus shot that attacks the central nervous system by paralyzing it. If not caught quickly enough, the person dies. My father was lucky and after treatment is walking around fairly well with muscle weakness and it has been two years. A friends father is paralyzed from the waist down his occurance happened 20 years ago. I had never heard about this at all until my father had it happen to him. I looked at a form when offered the flu shot and in the fine print… it is there.
This article sounds like someone in the medical/pharmacological industry paid this person to write it. I am not saying that is what happened, but that is what it sounds like. Make the choice for your child for what feels right for you. Dont let others with differing views than you bully or belittle you into changing your mind. IF it feels wrong for you, it probably is.
Do your research… there are videos and studies out there that are more unbiazed… stating pros and cons on both sides of the fence. One of the studies states the vaccines are being administered at too young of an age. When I was a child I got my ‘jabs’ at an older date when our bodies are more apt to handle it. I may reconsider and complete my sons vaccines then. I will investigate then.
Good luck to you and yours.
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Good grief! It is NOT biased to say that ‘on the whole Vaccination is the safest thing for individuals & populations.’ It’s established fact & is in no way a proclaimation that nobody will ever have an adverse reaction. The exceptions don’t disprove the rule. Clearly it’s important to communicate with your healthcare providers if there is a family of reactions/allergies/immune illnesses before proceeding with immunisation – if you don’t tell, a Dr can’t know (an MD is not a qualification in mind reading).
It’s time people took responsibility for understanding what they are actually being told, not just how they wish to interpret what is said. Science will never claim 100% & it is never fixed. All science is a probabilistic expression of what we know at the time: and guess what, we live at a point in history where we actually know a lot about how things really work. Just because you as an individual don’t understand how something works doesn’t mean people who spend their careers on it don’t, or have it somehow wrong. Trying to prove themselves wrong is the daily pursuit of scientists & the cornerstone of science. Even as the parent of a child who has never tolerated immunisation well, and who has been vax’ed on a revised schedule b/c of it, I am still not prepared to risk the extreme outcomes of her getting a serious illness to avoid some discomfort & low grade illness brought on by her shots. As time has gone by, properly managed she has grown more robust & now copes fine with her imm’s. It all comes down to properly interpreting evidence & working with, not against, the people with the qualifications to assess health risk.
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I interviewed Dr Fiona Stanley after the flu vaccination was banned in Perth.
The message I got was that this was one particular area that is still very much new territory so I’d proceed with caution on that one.
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aaaaaand they’re here. Oh dear, and it was all going so well…..
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I just love most of them are US based, talking about CDC recommendations and temps in F.
stick to facts and peer reviewed articles. its just a pity any discussion gets ehijacked by propaganda groups determined to spread a misinformed messag
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there’s an E at the end of message.
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hey mate, put a shrimp on the barbe for me too. It’ 20 here.
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@ kateinlondon You are a disrespectful, rude, narrow minded person. I feel for you…
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*waves cheerily* @Kylie
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Shades of Sauron sending out the Orcs…..
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My son had his eczema flare up quite badly after his 4 month and 6 month immunisations. I am seriously re considering allowing him to have the rest of them. Of course the doctors wont agree, but it highly coincidental that it has happened twice now. There must be something in the immunisations to cause such a reaction.
And @trixie….please show some respect and don’t call people who don’t immunise ‘loopy’.
We are all free to make choices and that is their choice and if you don’t agree, then fine, but show some maturity and don’t resort to ridiculous name calling, unless you are 5 years old, of course.
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Loopy, deluded, misinformed, ignorant or just plain stupid, take your pick.
If you can honestly look at ALL the evidence provided in the article above and still believe that there is still any kind of “debate” about whether we should be immunising our kids or not, then I’m sorry but you don’t deserve any respect for your choice.
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Well, all those names could equally apply to yourself also. I feel quite sorry for you that you are so narrow minded that you must call names to those who do not share the same opinion as yourself….
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Opinion is worthless unless it is groundable in fact, oriented towards a search for truth, and accountable to reason.
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Your opinion is just as worthless then, isn’t it ??
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If you think, in your steadfast opinion,that a flare up of eczma outweighs a secondary staphylococcal bacterial infection of chickenpox lesions in a child already prone to skin problems, then you’ll be comfortable with your decision.
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Believe it or not ‘Jane:, it is actually none of your business what I or anyone else does with our own children….Also, you do not know how bad the ezcema is, so don’t judge unless you have ALL the facts.
And if you can READ, I said that I AM RECONSIDERING….not that I WILL NOT be getting my son immunised….
So, mind your own business and STFU!!
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Kylie:
“Believe it or not ‘Jane:, it is actually none of your business what I or anyone else does with our own children”
Um, if you don’t want people to judge you or make comments about your decisions to put your and other kids’ lives in danger by not vaccinating them because of eczema, don’t write about them and publish them on an internet forum!
YOU wrote your original post and hit “Save”, YOU made it other people’s business. You can’t write about it and then complain when someone tells you what YOUR decision might lead to for your kid!
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show me some of your evidebce.
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do you have a child?
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loopy, arrogant and dangerous
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Not loopy at all. In fact, they have Ezcema in the packeging inserts. Mirror mirror on the wall lol
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I have a child with mild eczema. I would rather it flared up ‘quite badly’ a few times than say he get the measles. Or whooping cough. And I imagine chickenpox wouldn’t be great for his eczema…
we are free to make choices, but when your choices affect the broader community, it becomes about more than your family.
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I am not anti immunisation, but there are far worse issues affecting the community than whether or not people choose to immunise their children or not.
Sorry, but my family’s health comes before the community, And if I feel it is in my child’s best interests NOT to immunise, then the community’s welfare will be last in my thoughts.
I have 2 other children who are fully immunised, but they did not have any adverse reactions either.
YOU would rather your child has ezcema than chickenpox, I and others on the other hand may not.
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The only reason vaccine preventable diseases do not rate up there as worse issues affecting the community in this day and age is because WE have all vaccinated our children.
I would hate to be the parent who owns the unvaccinated, measles-infected child who is traced to an innocent baby’s death due to an encephalitis complications.
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Well, since you DO immunise your children, you wont have to worry about a dying baby will you??
And any person in their right mind will put their child’s best interests before those of the community.
I couldn’t give a rat’s about the community
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Ah, the american dream…
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Charming.
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I drive fast for the same reason. I get where I want to get much faster and I don’t give a rat’s about the community. Risk? Pfft! The only accidents I’ve ever had were when I was obeying the limit.
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Kylie, I would like to remind you that in Australia the MMR (measles, mumps and Rubella) vaccine is not administered until 12 months of age. SO this means if the diseases are in the community then any child under the age of 12 months is at risk. No one is professing that vaccination is 100% effective or 100% safe, but like all choices we make in life, we have to weigh up the risks and benefits. Someone with more medical knowledge, please correct me if I am wrong on the following 2 points: Contracting encephalitis from the measles vaccine occurs in approx. 1 in 1 000 000 cases, while encephalitis from measles itself occurs in approx 1 in 1000 cases – seems very obvious which choice to make, I believe the same to be true of those citing Guiilian Barre incidences. Getting Guillain Barre following say an influenza illness is far more common than getting it post influenza immunisation.
For those of us who do choose to vaccinate our children, it upsetting to hear that the anti-vaxxers suggest that we must not have considered all of the medical opinions and research. It is not an easy decision to take you 8 week old baby to the GP to have their injections, many mothers I know end up in tears as a result. But it is a decision that we have made in the best interests of our child and the community.
I think it is also worth noting that being vaccinated also reduces the chances of serious issues being developed by growing foetuses in the event of exposure to an illnes (such as Rubella). When people state that they have not been immunised and neither have their children, they tend to imply that they have made a decision not to vaccinate and have been rewarded with good health. I am trying not to become too heated in this discussion, but PLEASE acknowledge that you have been lucky and have clearly benefited from herd immunity.
Unfortunately today, many people have not seen the effects of many of the diseases that vaccination has been working to eradicate. Maybe now that whooping cough, measles etc are becoming more prevalent, it will become apparent that these are serious diseases of childhood and in some instances adulthood.
An additional note, It really upsets me that my children may still contract one of the diseases that I have immunised them against. My husband and I made a decision to take the risk (allbeit a very small risk) to immunise our children. And because others have not, the diseases are still in the community. it appears to me that the pro-vaxxers think globally, which is to be commended.
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Kylie, I also have a son with excema. It was extremely severe as a baby. His is caused by soap. Its that simple. Instead of blaming his vaccination, it could be something as simple as the sterile wipe used by the Doctor or nurse, or even the gloves they wore.
As someone who has also had a very young baby with Chicken pox, I can tell you it is potentially fatal. I would rather my child have excema any day over chicken pox.
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Lu,
I appreciate what you are saying, and my son cannot have fragranced products either. BUT, in saying that his eczema which was quite controlled suddenly flared up within 2 or 3 days of the immunisations, at the 4 months and 6 month.
Highly coincidental it only flared up on those two occasions, after the needles.
The ezcema was all over his body, not just the local area touched by the nurse.
I have read other accounts of the same thing happening to other babies.
I am still considering what to do about the future immunisations, luckily I have another 6 months to make up my mind and do my research in the meantime, but I and others will not be bullied into making a decision based on what is best for the ‘community’.
The same community who steals, bashes, rapes, and in general is too stuck up and arrogant to acknowledge their fellow man unless it is to judge them.
I thank you for your information and the way you wrote it, not judgmental at all, unlike others on here.
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Hi Kylie,
eczema is awful, I totally relate to it as my first child suffered from terrible eczema. I would also have been concerned and thoughtful if my babe had suffered from a big flare up after vaccination. We humans are wired to look for patterns in things and of course it is something you would think about. However, our immunologist did encourage to continue with the schedule as, for instance, chicken pox can be very severe in children with allergies or eczema (I can well remember my little sister who had chronic and severe eczema and her terrible suffering with chicken pox as a child)
Many things can cause a flare up… as I am sure you are more than aware! For us, it was the allergies, but also overheating, stress, other illness etc.
I hope that you do chose to continue with the schedule in spite of your experience, and find enough reassurance in the research presented to do so. Nevertheless, even though I do support immunization, i do also think that it is your right to choose.
The worrying thing is how polarized this debate becomes and also how very poor quality “research” gets presented as having the same value for decision-making as good quality science.
Anyhow, best of luck
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Thank you for replying Kate. I get what you mean about chickenpox etc…being much worse in a child with eczema, and if your specialist said it is better to continue with the immunisations even through the ezcema, then I will surely take that into consideration. Now that I am aware of what happens to my son after immunisation, perhaps next time I can be better prepared and maybe start treating before the flare up begins.
My other 2 children are immunised as they had no reaction, so its not that I am anti immunisation, I just wonder what is in the vaccine to cause such reactions in my son.
Thanks again and I hope your child’s ezcema is not causing them too much distress.
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Hi Kylie, As Kate said, I do hope that you come to a decision and that you are happy with it. I wonder whether the immune system starts to produce antibodies to the diseases (which is the idea of immunisation) and this in turn means your child’s immune system is not as well equipped to deal with controlling the eczema. I imagine this is only in the short term while the vaccine is eliciting the immune response from the body. I am not a doctor so I am just speculating, but I guess it is possible. I would never underestimate the effect that severe eczema could have on a baby or the family treating it, but perhaps the possibility of long term immunity to serious diseases is worth the inconvenience of the flare up????
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Are you kidding me? Compare eczema with Whooping Cough…or measles. Do you realise these diseases are in the community now? I’m feeling for your child because he will be the one suffering…not you!
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I have eczema, and I am more than up to date with my jabs (got a lot more than normal whilst serving in the Navy). A flare up of eczema is shit, but yeah, any VPD would be shitter. What a pathetic reason to not continue your kid’s jabs, and put him at risk like that.
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Fantastic article, thank you.
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looks like bull to me. heard this all b4 w tobacco
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Sooo – you now know tobacco to be bad – because doctors and scientists and evidence says so? Or some other epiphany? Your logic is fatally flawed.
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have antivaccers been redirected to this article from another site to spout nonsense and try and shout down a highly educated medical researcher?
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Of course they have Alex. All the loopy antivaxxers are keen to spread their misinformation as far and wide as possible.
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Rachael,
How are you feeling about all these comments? Like you I am pro-vaccine. It infuriates me to read some of the comments that are popping up. It seems like people are so set in their beliefs that they refuse to listen to reason. Does this get to you? How are you ever meant to make people understand that there’s no huge conspiracy going on; that doctors like you are simply trying to explain that vaccines are for our benefit not our harm?
I’d love to know your thoughts on this heated topic.
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Hi Vanessa, it seems many anti-vaccine commentors haven’t even read the article based on what they say. This doesn’t surprise me because you will never change their minds anyway, no matter how much information you present to them.
I’m encouraged that some parents have left comments saying they felt reassured by what I wrote and are now convinced to get their kids vaccinated.
I was hoping to provide a concise easy to read summary that might be found through the noise and confusion of the reams of misinformation that exist on the internet. If it helps a few people then I’m happy.
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I think you definitely provided what you aimed to and yes I agree it’s great news that you have helped to change some people’s minds. I really enjoyed your article (both the info and the way it was written) and want to thank you for putting a public voice to this debate. I just hope it helps get across to more and more people.
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Thanks for presenting it in an easy-to-understand and factual way. I have long been frustrated by the anti-vaccination league – I imagine you must be hugely frustrated! Keep up the good work!
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My son developed autism the day after getting his 6month shots at 7 months. Before the shots he was a happy engaging infant after the shots he screamed or stared at nothing. Overnight
BTW just to update your knowledge Wakefield was vindicated his research has been repeated and he was right about the bowel problems/disease. http://abbykorinnelee.hubpages.com/hub/Wakefield-Vindicated
The flu shots have 250x over what the EPA says is safe with mercury. Several other vaccines still have trace amounts of mercury.
Vaccines contain a ton of toxic ingredients small amounts add up and I know the doctors office injected my son with over 7 vaccines in 4 shots. I was ignorant and thought it was just 4. I trusted the doctor. They have everything from formaldehyde, aluminum phosphate, aluminum hydroxide
polysorbate 80 (Tween-80) a sterilizing agent to antibiotics, yeast, sugars, human and animal proteins and more. http://www.janethull.com/newsletter/0706/aspartame_in_the_pink_packet.php.
There have never been studies done over the way they are given to children. I know of a few autistic kids who received up to 9 vaccines at once. Also they won’t compare vaccinated kids to unvaccinated kids.
Vaccines actually lower your immunity. I’ll use the H1N1 bullshite scare as an example people who got the regular flu shot were prone to catching H1N1 faster and/or the other way around. They might protect you against something specific but will make it easier to catch other things. Also
just look at a group of infants a high percent of them will have ear infections after a round of vaccines.
Number 6 is not a myth obviously standards of living including fresh water, washing regularly, and
getting rid of waste will improve health.
With modern medicine and nutrition most childhood illness’ are not dangerous. My kids had chicken pox
a few years ago (I know weird only kids I’ve ever heard of having them in these vaccinated times).
They were itchy ran a fever for 3 days had some spots on them and guess what they were fine and now have lifetime immunity instead of needing a booster every 10 years. This leads me into
your myth number 8 Shocking I know but my kids caught chickenpox from a little vaccinated plague carrier
that had just received her chicken pox vaccine. I think vaccinated kids should be quarantined for a few days.
Autoimmune diseases are on the rise which could very well be from injecting vaccines like you can protect yourself from life and nature and overwhelming the bodies natural defenses.
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Are you honestly comparing chicken pox to polio in terms of severity??
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Stephanie, regardless of what Wakefield said about GI disorders, it was his claims about a vaccine link to autism which I was referring to.
I cite a study where vaccinated kids were compared to unvaccinated kids. It involved over 500,000 of them. There was no difference in rate of autistic spectrum disorders. See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12421889
Here’s another one in vaxed versus unvaxed looking at rates of occurrence of disease. A summary of the study is here http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110304091458.htm
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Rachel I believe there was also a study done fairly recently (in Germany I think?) which looked at prevalence of other diseases in vaxed vs unvaxed kids (colds, ear infections, asthma etc). It also found that vaxed kids had a slightly lower rate of infection for these diseases as well as the obvious decreased risk for the vaccine preventable illnesses.
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Thank you for exposing your lack of knowledge about what you are regurgitating.
Denmark had hardly any vaccines between 1991 and 1998, the dates of this poor attempt to disclaim the fact that VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM, and that is why the purveyors of this fraud, used Denmark,
Even in 2009, Kids in Denmark received 12 vaccines before age 5, compared to about 3 times as many in Australia, and today it’s even more.
Since you brought up Denmark, which I just did a study on, the 2009 autism rate was ONE child in 2,200.
Which only further proves that as vaccines go up, autism skyrockets, eh mate?
.
As an example
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Alpha Omega if you don’t like this study (and it’s not the only one I presented as evidence for vaccine safety) then I suggest you take a look at the IOM study which I mentioned in Myth#1.
With respect to MMR it looked at 29 side effects including autism here is what it says; “The evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between MMR vaccine and autism”.
They looked at epidemiologic evidence and mechanistic evidence for a link and found none. You can read the analysis in chapter 4 of this pdf which is free to download.
http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2011/Adverse-Effects-of-Vaccines-Evidence-and-Causality.aspx
The link between vaccines and autism has also been dismissed by the vaccine court in the US (which require much less stringent evidence than science does – what some people refer to as 50% and a feather).
If you know of the Omnibus Trials you will be aware that 4000 families were involved in a test case to sue Big Pharma for a link to autism, MMR and thimerosal. In the trial cases (which were considered the most likely to proceed) Special Master George L Hastings wrote in his judgement on one case that “This case … is not a close case. The overall weight of the evidence is overwhelmingly contrary to the petitioners’ causation theories.”
Patricia Campbell-Smith, special master on another case, said that “The petitioners’ theory of vaccine-related causation is scientifically unsupportable.” The decision is here http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/node/5026
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I was referring to over-all health including autism and other neuro-issues. That study only covers MMR the children in the US get a ton of vaccines over double what the Danish have. There has been no study over the current recommended/mandatory vaccines combined. Take those results and compare them to the unvaccinated. You can say whatever you want, I watched my son have a bad vaccine reaction that the ER and doc’s office said was normal. He ran fever and screamed and I was told by the doctors to give him motrin. He was inconsolable the day of and day after the injections, ran fever for approx 3 days. Stopped smiling and looking at people did not want to be held anymore, was like my son was switch with a totally different baby. I was fine with vaccines until they damaged my son. I’ve been through hell with him and I know/saw exactly what caused this change. One of or a combination of the vaccines injected into him did this.
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@Stephanie. Yes there has been studies regarding the “too many, too soon” anti-vaccination gambit you are rehashing here to the delight of everyone:
http://scienceblogs.com/whitecoatunderground/2010/05/too_many_too_soon.php
You’re welcome.
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Hi Stephanie, the IOM covers 30 side effects for MMR including autism. The link has been posted all over this post.
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Stephanie, you might also be interested in this study which I have posted elsewhere on this page.
A study from Pediatrics looked at more than 1,000 children born between 1993 and 1997 at their vaccination schedules up to 1 year of age, and studied their performance 7 to 10 years later on 42 different neuropsychological outcomes.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/125/6/1134.abstract
Timely vaccination was associated with better performance on numerous outcomes. The less-vaccinated children did not do significantly better on any of the outcomes.
AUTHOR CONCLUSION: This comparison of children vaccinated on time with children whose vaccinations were delayed or incomplete found no benefit in delaying immunizations during the first year of life.
For parents who are concerned that children receive too many vaccines too soon, these data may provide reassurance that timely vaccination during infancy has no adverse effect on long-term neuropsychological outcomes.
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‘you can say whatever you want’. Frankly, I think that is pretty much it in a nutshell. It wouldn’t matter what evidence that anyone came up with, Stephanie’s mind is firmly shut.
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At last. Someone to punch a hole in this BS article.
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Stephanie’s comments are full of the typical anti-vax inaccuracies.
If her child really has autism, she has my sympathy, but autism does not develop in the way she describes – happy one day and screaming/staring the next. Even if the vaccine constituents had anything to do with autism (which has never been shown), that type of pathology could not conceivably occur (literally) overnight.
Similarly her comment “vaccines actually lower your immunity”. Sorry, but they don’t.
She is right that, in most young children, chickenpox is no big deal. (That’s why it isn’t routine). However, in older people, it can be fatal. No, that’s not common, but medicine has now tackled the “low lying fruit”, and trying to reduce illness and death even if it is uncommon from that cause.
There are any number of anti-vax sites that spout the misinformation that Stephanie repeats. Since this essay was mentioned on the AVN Facebook page, I’m not surprised that some anti-vaxers have found their way here.
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Yes my 9 year old son is autistic, and he did change the night after being vaccinated. I have video and pictures that show him wanting attention, saying words like mama and jump, laughing and being a happy baby. The next day he was sick and stayed sick for a very long time. He no longer said mama nor jump and would just look at nothing. He did not babble or even try to speak again till he was almost 4 years old. The only way he communicated was to SCREAM. Do not tell me how autism develops I’ve lived it. My guess from experiencing this horrible mess was that his brain ended up inflamed directly caused by the injections causing damage that ultimately ended up as autism. I count myself very blessed that he didn’t die, esp since I was told by the ER and his doctors office that it was a “normal” reaction.
As for a lowering of immunity… ear infection is listed as a side effect in several injections. If they didn’t lower your immune system explain to me why ear infections are so common as to be listed as an effect of a vaccination. Also autism is listed as a side effect of Dtap. We live in bipolar times. There is no connection between vaccines and autism… oh except when there is an underlining condition that may or may not have been caused or activated by the vaccines. There is no effect of autism except when we list is as a side effect of a vaccine. Crazy
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Ear infections occur occasionally after recieving some vaccinations because some vaccines encourage active immunity; an acellular fraction of the disease is introduced into the body which illicits an immune response (which can manifest as an ear infection), while the body naturally produces it’s own antibodies specific to the stimulus. Not because it lowers immunity. Quite the opposite actually.
Edited to add: Replace ‘ear infections’ with any number of other symptoms, including localised rashes, flu-like symptoms, swelling at the injection site… it all applies.
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Sorry, you said your son, at 7 months, was saying words like mama and jump. Wowee you had an advanced baby. Mine only says babbbaabbbaaba. Although that has increased AFTER his vaccinations to Baaabuubaabbuua. Autism cant be reliably diagnosed until about 2 years due to the need to review language, social skills, repetitive behaviours etc.
Seriously, if your son does have Autism I am truly sorry. It is a hard road, however I doubt that the vaccination caused it. Also, alot of kids get ear infections around 6/7 months because they are teeting and I find it goes hand in hand. It doesn’t mean we should say teething is a conspiracy theory and try to ban it (although that would be nice).
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Oh yes, can we PLEASE ban teething? *gulps coffee*
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I just want to say I have empathy for those people who have witnessed an adverse reaction to vaccination or their child has a condition that they are searching for a reason for.
I am vaccinated, so is my child, and so will be my future child.
perhaps I would search for answers in vaccination if my child had autism.
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I agree
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Stephanie, a medical degree in Australia takes anywhere from 5 to 6 years, we learn about the immune system and the rest of the body as well (surprise).
One of the most saddening things we see is when babies come in with their mothers and have a disease that is preventable. It breaks all of the health workers hearts each and every time.
Another skill they teach at university is to look at the evidence and make sure it is credible. Blogs and newsletters unfortunately do not count as reliable or credible evidence, nor does anecdotes.
When people look at vaccinating their children we urge them to do so not only for their child’s health (although this is the major driving force, infant death rates have dropped considerably since vaccinations have been introduced, look at Dr. Dunlop’s links for these). But also for something called herd immunity, this means that by vaccinating your child not only are you protecting them but all the children who are too young to vaccinate, or have to live with their parents decision.
If the health of your own child being protected, supported by thousands upon thousands of studies is not enough, please also think about the babies that your child may pass the disease onto if they are not immunised and the mothers not able to make the decision about whether to vaccinate because their child is dead.
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My son also has autism. It is present from birth and the vaccination argument is used to appease people trying to blame it on something other than extremely unfortunate genetics.
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I’d love to know what shots these kids are having. I know the schedule pretty well and we never give 4 or 9 shots at once due to combination needles.
We also live in a world where so many things could cause auto immune diseases: pollution, chemicals in our food, on our clothes, the chairs we sit on, radiation from mobile phones. Do you really think that vaccines are the only thing to blame?
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Very informative. I have read other articles by Rachael and she is always clear, authoratitive and factual. Almost cautious in expressing opinions and very fair in treating both sides of an argument, if there are two genuine sides.
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We know now, very well today, how to maximize the power of the immune system in children (& adults). If a child has measles today, in the Western world, and is correctly nursed – so that the measles toxins are sent out via the skin – simply done by Epsom salt baths (which is always successful – with a wonderful ‘harvest’ of toxin-bearing spots) – then we will not have a dangerous situation with core problems that affect the lungs etc. Same with chicken-pox. To this program, added vitamin C (1 gm per year of age to six yrs) – see Dr Archie Kalokerinos “Every Second Child”, plus a minimal dose of vitamin A corrected for age/weight..
In 1992 the American Medical Journal’s annual health encyclopeaida described chicken pox as a “benign infection that is rarely harmful” – today everybody throw their hands up in horror! – with help from pharma companies making fear their chief marketing tool.
In the 3rd world it is a different story.
When I was a lad (1940′s) we all got measles, mumps, chicken pox. Great! we had a week off off school and the whole school had these natural defence building episodes . There was then a .04% rate of deaths.
As a result, our immune systems were toughened — and I have never had to see a doctor for any of these — nor my daughter, who was never vaccinated. She is bright healthy and strong – like me!
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Where’s your scientific study to prove the epsom salts bath works? Oh, sorry, you’re talking anecdotes.
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Dr Kalokerinos, who tells us us that massive doses of vitamin C will cure just about every ailment, and that vaccination is a deliberate process of genocide carried out under the auspices of the World Health Organization and the Save the Children Fund and says that these two groups “put Hitler and Stalin in the shade” when it came to deliberate and intentional mass killings. (source: Australian Vaccination Seminar 2002)
Ye-es, perfectly reasonable……..
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That’s him Jane. He speaks at anti-vaccine conferences too
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My friend who contracted chicken pox as a 30 year old had no spots, just an incredibly high fever followed by swelling of random body parts which didn’t respond to medical treatment. He died 24 hours after his temperature became elevated, leaving a 10 month old son and his wife who was 7 months pregnant with his second son.
Gee. If only the hospital had known about epsom salts and vitamin C.
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Maybe your friend should’ve taken some vitamin C and maybe D.
I had them at 28 I ran a fever of 103 and 104 for 2 weeks and took care of 3 small kids. Took C and D in huge amounts (i think I was taking cod liver oil too) I ended up with a few scars. I’m not trying to be mean but that was a really tacky comment. I am sorry for the loss of your friend that is truly terrible.
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Stephanie, taking huge amounts of vitamin C will do nothing but turn your wee yellow. You can only absorb certain amounts of Vitamin C before the receptors in your stomach become saturated and the rest gets excreted in your urine.
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Omg she let him do it after only 3 months post partum???
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It is apparent Another that you believe in the old adage of ‘The strong survive and the weak just die off’ – what an awful way to live life by in this day and age with the wonderful work that our medical researchers are doing now to eradicate such diseases and super bugs.
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0.04%? So only four in ten thousand sufferers died?
So, if my maths are correct, we’d only lose a little over 600 kids a year* in Australia to those “harmless childhood diseases” if we went back to the good old days before vaccination was invented. Sounds acceptable to me. What do others think? Worth it?
(Based on sub-four-years-old being around 7% of 22 million population. The number increases if we expand the age bracket for “children”)
Okay, so road deaths only represent about 0.007% of population but it’s not like we notice that statistic is it?
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“Great! we had a week off off school” – so that would be an extra week at school!
I am delighted that you have been lucky with your health, as the majority are, but it hardly provides proof of your claim. Jeanne Calment, France’s oldest woman “smoked until the age of 117, only five years before her death” but this would be poor evidence for the health benefits of smonking.
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Perfect timing. Our baby is fully immunized…to date – but the 12 month round (with MMR) is coming up…and I was considering delaying the MMR (never considered not having our baby fully immunized by the age of 2, just delaying the MMR until 20 months) and this article was what I needed as my influence to date has been Dr Google and I needed the facts, just the facts!
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These are not facts! Get a package insert from the vaccine you intend to give your child and look at the ingredients/warnings straight from the CDC. Thi article is full of lies and is very misleading. Even if you choose to vaccinate, dont let it be based on the opinion of this writer!
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Anonymous, If you can point out where in this article I lied I’d appreciate it. Thanks.
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She’s right. It would be easier for her to point out the line where she told the truth……
- but wait –
I can’t find one line of truth
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many children died from diseases that we no longer see in society today – stamped out largely due to mass vaccination.
Childhood infectious diseases were not stamped out by vaccines — see the charts @ http://www.alternative-doctor.com/vaccination/obomsawin.html Raymond Obomsawin PhD . ALL childhood diseases began to fall from the late 1880′s – and were about NIL by the time vaxccines arrived fully.
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Oh, yes, the Obomsawin Technique of vaccine denialism. Read about him and how to spot other anti-vaxers here:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/what-does-anti-vaccine-really-mean/#more-7838
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i think i love you a little bit Jane DJ
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Jane DJ – you are amazing! You have this topic covered well and truly. I have wanted to add the odd comment, but you do it so eloquently, please keep going
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Thanks – but all anyone needs to do is to Google the title of the “research” and it inevitably will turn up as being debunked. It’s that easy.
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Standard argument from the anti-vax handbook:
Strategy One: Claim that childhood infectious diseases have reduced due to nutrition and hygiene;
Strategy Forty Two: Quote an American quack like Raymond Obonsawin (not a clinician), using references from other quack websites (like alternative doctor).
Yes, yes, we’ve heard all that before.
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I once published a statistical analysis that showed how production of the petrol engine coincided with a sudden drop in measles mortality. From that simple correlation I concluded that the thing that actually reduced measles deaths was neither vaccination nor public sanitation but the proliferation of motorised vehicles.
There were a whole bunch of other things that happened in the arly 1900′s that anyone could arbitrarily relate to the decline too. Correlations are easy to make if you don’t have to worry about other facts (and if you choose to ignore more recent data, as mentioned by Dr Rachie, in which these arbitrary correlations fail).
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Where are you scientific references for this article? My partner used to work making vaccines in Germany that were sold in many countries, including Australia and he said that he changed his line of work because he didn’t want to be responsible for hurting people he wanted to help them and that the vaccines contained toxic ingredients. If a person making the vaccines for a large company says that, then who are you with your crappy magazine style article to contest it. You haven’t provided any further scientific evidence to back up your claims than people saying they are harmful. Very misleading article.
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MM, there are hyperlinks within the article. What is your evidence that vaccines are harmful? I provided a link to an 800 page review document in Myth #1 that concluded “overall few health problems are caused by or clearly associated with vaccines”.
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Here’s a link to 42 studies which show no link between MMR vaccine, thimerosal and autism.
http://www.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf
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42 is the meaning of life!
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most parents who choose to not vaccinate agree that there is no proven link between vaccines and autism. It’s also the least of their concerns about the damage that vaccines are capable of. I’ve seen firsthand the damage that Gardasil can do. Thankfully my friend seems to have made a full recovery, unlike some.
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Seriously, pull the other one, or elaborate on your claims. You say your vaccinated friend has fully recovered – from what exactly? Maybe she should talk to someone who has had their uterus and vagina removed due to HPV origin cancer and reassess her concerns.
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Maybe not outright lied, but skewed the information. Vaccines are not as well tested as the medical researchers would like us to believe.. Eg the swine flu vaccine which killed toddlers and was recalled from being administered to that age group. Gardasil. Or how about the discovery, by Aussie scientists that the re-emergence of whooping cough is due to the mutation of the bacteria and becoming resistant to the new vaccine after they changed it from whole-cellular to acellular? Not the anti-vaccinators! This was reported in the daily telegraph. Why was this nit discovered during the testing time?
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I presume you mean the Fluvax reactions from last year that I mentioned in the article? I don’t think anyone died from this vaccine – Saba Button was permanently injured which is just horrible. There was a thorough investigation into that incident, which involved the US FDA and Australian authorities and only recently they think they found out what was wrong with that vaccine. It seems faults in CSL’s manufacturing process are to blame. That vaccine has been withdrawn from use for kids under 5 and investigations into practices at CSL continue.
See http://tinyurl.com/3tcfege
Can you provide a link to “re-emergence of whooping cough is due to the mutation of the bacteria and becoming resistant to the new vaccine after they changed it from whole-cellular to acellular?” as I have only heard this as speculation not as a published study.
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Rachael,
Maybe I’m wrong regarding any fluvax deaths, but it was recalled from that age group, and so it seems reasonable to come to the conclusion that had it been fully tested for safety, the injuries would not have occurred?
The study regarding whooping cough links are here:
http://www.science.unsw.edu.au/news/whooping-cough-vaccine-may-be-losing-its-punch-study/
And
http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/16/2/08-1707_article.htm
So it doesn’t prove it beyond doubt, but there is more proof in that study for mutating being the reason for the rise in whooping cough than there is for lower vaccination rates.
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Jane why so hostile?
My friend recovered from losing all function in her legs and one side of her body, severe migraines, and when the paralysis stopped, severe pain in her legs before she could walk unaided again. This occurred after her 2nd dose. She was wheelchair bound for months, with no idea if she even would recover. Pretty traumatic for a 15 year old girl.
Btw you do realise it’s a vaccine against a strain of genital warts that MAY result in cervical cancer? It’s a misconception to call it a cervical cancer vaccine.
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Oh for pete’s sake, the package inserts of ANYTHING are full of scary medical jargon – have a read what’s in kids’ paracetamol elixers :
http://www.racgp.org.au/cmi/swcpanam.pdf – just as “scawey” – but perfectly safe when used properly, safely tested by the poor old scientists that get short shrift and derision from the anti-science brigade.
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So, you don’t trust the CDC, but you’re willing to agree with the package inserts???? That makes no sense at all!
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That’s right – Big Pharma is a greedy international industrial complex that makes child-killing poisons – UNLESS – their packet inserts suit your argument. The they are very trustworthy.
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jb expat = Jab Expert
cute
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that’s clever, but that’s not behind the “jb”
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There are two things that I don’t like regarding a lot of these comments;
1. the gutless wonders who make big claims and accusations but hide behind guest monikers; and
2. the morons who keep saying (with respect to unvaccinated children mingling with others) “What’s the matter,are you scared you vaccine won’t work”?
So to the first lot I say, if you don’t believe in your posts enough to put your name to the, nick off.
To the other lot of you I say this. I am not concerned about vaccines not protecting myself or my children. What I am concerned about are the poor little babies to young yet to be vaccinated who are exposed to people that should be vaccinated. I also care for the welfare of those who are immuno compromised – ie children receiving cancer treatment or those with AIDS. Selfish, selfish, selfish.
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Hi Linda, I agree with your point about people who post as anonymous and then accuse me of lying. Not very brave are they?
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Why do you not inform people that vaccinated kids/adults can also spread/carry viruses? Why do the unvaccinated kids have to carry the blame?
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GREAT article!! I’m a fellow science writer and only wish I could be so eloquent!
My only comment is that I feel this is such a 1st world argument i.e. those that argue against vaccinating … parents in the 3rd world should be so lucky but they are probably too busy surviving. We are blessed to have access to such healthy futures for our kids.
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Someone referred to it in an earlier post as “first world arrogance” – absolutely!
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I once read that a mother got arrested in the USA for murder, when her un-immunised son who had whopping cough, spread and caused death to a child who too played at the same playground as her son. Is this true? Maybe this law can be introduced here in Australia if it can be proved that that un-immunised infected child caused illness and death to another child…
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It’s quite possible … I know it was definitely the plot of Law and Order and they tend to borrow at least from real life…
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All well and good but unfortunately you’re preaching to the choir (so to speak – most people who respect science don’t have anything to to with preachers). A lot of people have problems with science and think it is a great big conspiracy. Creationism, anyone?
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I was waiting for an atheist comment against Christians. This is an extension of the Yahoo (and other) group, who gets paid per post for hijacking vaccine safety discussions. Are you the same group paid to say global warming doesn’t exist?.
My job is done.
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Thank you.
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Actually – I wasn’t labelling anyone, such a shame you couldn’t extend me the same courtesy.
I was merely stating that there are people who choose to put their faith in scientific fact, and that there are people who choose to disregard scientific fact when it is at odds with their faith. Whether that faith is in a higher power, the “evils of vaccines” or a literal interpretation of the bible that says the earth is only 6000 years old so dinosaurs must have shared the earth with Adam and Eve.
I rather resent the implication that I am not a free thinking adult and am getting paid to put forth someone else’s opinion. I do find it rather amusing that you finished your comment with the line “My job is done” – are you being *paid* to insult anyone who does not agree with a “Vaccines are evil” agenda?
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25 years ago the autism rate was 1:10,000 today is 150:10K – NOT because of ‘better diagnosis’ – you canot miss an elephant in the lounge room (autistic childen are very obvious). The rise precisely matched the number of multi-valent vaccines. IN USA the Education Department concerned with autism rates published a graph in 1991: 5,400 cases autism (ages 6- 21) – in 2001 the graph had risen to 81,000.
I specialise for 14 years in repair of ASD children. If you saw as many and as badly damaged children as I and my colleagues have seen you would be as angry as I am, when I read your smug unsubstantiated pronouncements. 30% of my parents saw their child regress at or shortly after, the thirty or more vaccinations.
1. Cambridge University (UK) January 2009: “one in 68 children with autism, with one in 38 being boys” or 147 per 10,000. “In Australia autism spectrum disorder numbers are similar to those in U.K.” MJA 2005; 182 (3):108-1).
2. It is now costing U.K. Government 28 billion pounds annually. Study director: Professor Simon Baron-Cohen, “a well-known expert in autism” (Sue Reid ‘Daily Mail’ March 20 2009).. In our clinics (representing 25 qualified biomedical doctors in private practice specializing in ASD in Australia) we see a rapidly growing ASD client patient base, as do the autism spectrum disorder Yahoo Groups – the much used ‘chat’ groups that handle thousands of queries daily.
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Out of curiousity, what do u mean by the repair of asd children?
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Yes, really anon, very interested in the establishment where you and your colleagues perform such an important task as the “repair” of asd children.
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Yes please elaborate on your comments re. ‘the repair of asd children’.
Also your ‘autistic children are very obvious’ comment is appalling…
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My son is autistic and I didn’t think the comment of asd kids being obvious was insulting at all. They are obvious, I don’t see how the world is so oblivious to the fact that soon there will be no neurotypical children left. 1 in 90 in the us now, in the 80s it was 1 in 10,000. As for vaccination not causing autism I say HAHA whatever. I watched my baby changed over night after his 6months shots when he was 7 months old. Went from a happy engaging infant to one that stared at the wall and screamed all the time. It was awful and the so called dr.’s all said he had a normal reaction at the time.
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Its ok to say vaccines cause cognitive disorders, but never say the “A” word (autism).
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It’s not just the health of children that is important, it’s the health of my wallet. Everytime a vaccine is mandated, the government buys another 1,100,000 doses from us for distribution, and this not only helps keep kids healthy, it helps the economy as well.
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“The rise precisely matched the number of multi-valent vaccines”. Do you also know there was an increase in the use of mobile phones and microwave ovens? Why do these not get blamed for causing autism?
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Or the increase in older mothers, or processed food or obesity! (I am not saying these are actually reasons, just that there are an incredible multitude of factors and changes that have occurred during this time period).
Attempting to attribute the rise in autism to any one cause is folly and is clearly not based on a unscientific method, which requires a question to be answered in totality, not in isolation.
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also with a huge increase in chemicals in our food…preservatives, colours, flavours…untested too.
Just sayin’.
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This makes me so angry.
My daughter is Autistic and showed signs of autism (no eye contact and strange repetitive behaviors) well before she EVER had any vaccinations. Wakefield has been DEBUNKED. You have NO IDEA about anything ASD related.
Also, anyone who clams they can fix Autism is trying to make money off the desperation of parents with ASD kids. I also doubt the ability of someone who can’t even structure a sentence properly, “I specialise for 14 years in repair of ASD children.” I wouldn’t trust you as far as I could throw you and your “colleagues”.
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Bless you Pip. You’re a star for pointing the nonsense between Autism and Vaccinations!!! BTW awesome name!!!
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Thanks Pip – it’s great to hear a parent of a child with autism actually say this. Usually it’s only the anti-vaccers that speak out.
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At what age did you first immunise your child? I didn’t know babies at 2 or 3 months could have strange repetitive behaviours. ??
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they can however avoid eye-contact
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Hi pip, when my twin brother and sister where very new (I was 22 when they were born- am now 35) I went along to mothers group with them. I had zero experience with kids but I noticed one little girl immediately, there was just something different about her. She was only diagnosed with autism at the age of two as I think parents often don’t want to see things. I have my own daughter now and friends have a child a little older, it is so obvious to me that it’s behavior is unusual but the parents don’t see it. I think being able to blame an external factor must make a bitter pill easier to swallow for some. Best of luck on your journey.
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You say that 150:10k develop autism as a result of vaccine, so what about the other 9850 children who have presumably been vaxed why dont they develop autism?
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i do not need “repairing”
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Alex? Is that you? autograph please kthxbye.
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I am a HUGE advocate for getting your children vaccinated!
I loathe the fact that people who are in such high profile such as Oprah Winfrey get on their soapbox and sprout off about autism has a link to childhood vaccines! The woman doesn’t even have children! And Jenny McCarthy some two bit ex playboy bunny who blames her son’s autism on vaccines!!!
There is a reason why smallpox, diptheria, MMR etc is hardly ever seen in our country anymore….. that would be because of vaccines!!!
Did non of you people who were against vaccinations not see the 60 minutes report on babies with whooping cough?! Good Lord!
Also…. ask yourself why doesn’t your child who has NEVER been vaccinated has ever gotten MMR, Whooping cough etc? It’s because parents like me, who get their children vaccinated are protecting your kids because ours aren’t picking up the diseases or bugs to pas them onto your children!
I really believe that the Education Department should make it mandatory for kids who enrol in their schools (including private) to have been vaccinated.
Vaccinate your children, they deserve to be protected.
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Did you ever ask yourself why over 50 percent of the children who get these diseases ARE vaccinated children?! Because the vaccines don’t work!
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Sorry, you forgot to include the scientific citation for those figures…..
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Some people who do wear seat belts still get injured or die in car accidents. Does this prove seat belts don’t work?
BUT, if 95% of kids are vaccinated and only 50% of sufferers are vaccinated. It looks like the vaccine is doing something.
(following numbers purely hypothetical for purpose of statistical demo):
Assume we have one million kids. Assume 95% vaxed. Assume 1000 kids get measles. Now, if we say 50% of the infected kids are vaxed (you have a stat, I’m sure) then we have 500 out of 950,000 vaxed kids getting measles. But we also have 500 out of just 50,000 unvaxed kids getting it too. So…
0.05% of vaxed kids got measles.
1% of unvaxed kids got it.
ie: unvaxed kids were twenty times more likely to suffer. Now, consider that the unvaxed kids derive some benefit from the herd immunity provided by those 949,500 vaxed kids who aren’t spreading disease, so things would be worse if less kids were vaxed. Add to this the fact that unvaxed kids generally suffer more from infection, and you might see a problem with your simplistic dismissal based on inadequate stats.
Do you know that most Volvo drivers are vaccinated? That most kids with red hair are vaccinated? And that most vaccinated kids are right handed?
Vaccination sure has some bizarre side effects.
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I do not know if Andy and Jane DJ are both single, but you would make an excellent and formidable duo!
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Are you saying that those who don’t vaccinate should not be educated.
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Home schooling is always an option should you choose not to immunise your child!
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Thank you! Very difficult to talk to anti-vaccination supporters about all this this stuff as they tend to give in to their fears, and take on board the above myths. I will be referring people to this article. Bravo.
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Wow, just mention the “V” word and don’t the Trolls all come out.
Can none of you remember Polio in the 50′s and the poor kids who ended up in iron lungs for the rest of their lives, or the ones with debilitating muscular problems? All it takes is a little drop of vaccine and polio is now something you only see in third world countries.
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Are you serious? If you had done any research for yourself and not just trusted something someone told you you would see that Polio was on decline YEARS before the vaccine was distributed. Better living conditions do make a HUGE difference in building stronger immune systems
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Anonymous, you clearly haven’t read the article. Please read myth #6 then get back to us about the contribution of better living conditions.
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Anonymous quotes Antivax Handbook – strategy #1 (described above).
Okaaayyyy – can you explain how HiB has virtually disappeared since the 1970′s – 1980′s in Australia? I haven’t seen any difference in hygiene or nutrition in Australian over that time.
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anonymous….did you spend considerable time, money and resources researching this supposed polio decline yourself? Or are you just parroting something that an anti-vaccine person or website told you?
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