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baby vaccination2 380x573 9 vaccination myths busted. With science!

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A recent survey found more than two thirds of us research our medications on-line and half of us turn to “Dr Google” for diagnosis. But how do you know the information you are getting online is accurate? Basically, you don’t. In fact studies show if you search Google for “vaccination”, 60% of the results will not only be misleading but downright scary. In a time when vaccine-preventable diseases such as whooping cough and measles are in the news again, it’s critically important to know the facts about vaccination so that you can protect your kids and yourself.

So, let’s take a look at some of the common myths about vaccination and why they’re wrong.

Myth 1: Vaccines cause autism.

No doubt you’ve heard this myth – it’s been around for some time now. In a nutshell, there is no solid scientific evidence for a link between vaccines and autism. And believe me, science has been looking for well over 14 years. The theory that vaccines cause autism was first suggested by Andrew Wakefield in 1998. Since then, Wakefield’s paper has been discredited and withdrawn from The Lancet and Wakefield has lost his medical licence for showing “callous disregard” for children’s welfare.

Since 1998 there have been countless large and comprehensive studies looking for a link between vaccines and autism, but the evidence keeps coming up negative. The largest study was done in Denmark and covered all children born from January 1991 through December 1998. A total of 537,303 children of which eighty-two percent were vaccinated for MMR were examined and there was no association between vaccination and the development of autistic disorder.

Further, in August 2011, an exhaustive review of the scientific literature by the Institute of Medicine in the US concluded that overall “few health problems are caused by or clearly associated with vaccines”. And when I say “exhaustive review”, I mean 12,000 peer-reviewed articles, covering eight different vaccines were pored over by a committee of 18 experts in the largest review of adverse events associated with vaccines since 1994. It was a thorough and herculean effort concluding that there is no causal relationship between vaccines and autism.

Myth 2: Vaccines contain mercury

Mercury was removed from all routine childhood vaccines in Australia in the year 2000 (with the exception of one type of HepB vaccine which contains trace amounts) and it was never in the MMR vaccine. Prior to 2000, thimerosal, an organomercury compound, was used in the manufacturing process of vaccines as a preservative. The process left only trace amounts in the finished product – you ingest more mercury when you eat a can of tuna than you would ever get from a vaccine. Also there are two types of mercury – methyl mercury is the scary environmental toxin that “bioaccumulates” in your body, and ethyl mercury the type found in thimerosal, which does not bioaccumulate.
If thimerosal was implicated in autism, you would expect a significant drop in cases after its removal. Instead the opposite is true – autism rates continue to rise.

Myth 3: Vaccines contain toxic ingredients

JennyMcCarthy 380x214 9 vaccination myths busted. With science!

Jenny McCarthy whose son was diagnosed with autism led the charge against vaccinations claiming there was a link between the condition and immunisations.

Look anywhere on the Internet and you’ll find long scary looking lists of chemicals that anti-vaccine advocates claim are present in vaccines. Things such as anti-freeze, formaldehyde, aluminium phosphate, human fetal tissue, monkey kidney and lung cells, and most famously mercury. They also claim vaccines cause diseases such as AIDS, asthma, autism, cancers, diabetes, leukemia, lupus, SIDS, the list goes on. Many of these claims are quite simply untrue. The rest, without exception, misrepresent the facts.

For example, some viruses are grown on cell lines in the laboratory that were obtained from aborted fetal tissue many years ago. When a virus is grown on cells like these, it is extensively purified and many steps later, prepared into a vaccine. To say there are aborted human fetus cells in the vaccine is a bit like saying there is dirt in apples since they were once grown on a tree that grew in dirt. It’s misleading, scaremongering and simply not true. As for formaldehyde, there are trace amounts of formaldehyde in vaccines but much less than what your body naturally produces everyday.

Some vaccines do contain tiny amounts of metals like aluminium which have been used for over 80 years to increase the effectiveness of the vaccine. These are known as “adjuvants” and work like a booster to kick start the immune system into making antibodies. But just as the “dose makes the poison”, the concentrations of these metals are so low as to not be harmful to the body. Similarly, small doses of paracetamol cure pain but large doses have been known to cause liver failure.

Myth 4: Vaccines have never been tested.

All vaccines currently available in Australia must pass stringent safety testing before being approved for use by the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA), which is our government body responsible for regulating pharmaceuticals. Multiple clinical trials for safety and effectiveness are also performed as part of the development process (which takes anywhere between 10 to 15 years, and many millions of dollars) and safety monitoring continues for as long as the vaccine is in use.

For example with the polio vaccine, two million kids were involved in the field trial which was conducted in the US in 1954. More recently, the safety of the new cervical cancer vaccines was studied in large-scale clinical trials involving more than 50,000 people before being licensed for use. Safety continues to be monitored after 35 million doses with the majority of side effects being fever, headache and other minor ailments.

Like any medical procedure there are risks associated with the use of vaccines. This was brought to light in 2010 when dozens of kids suffered high temperatures and convulsions following administration of the flu vaccine. The vaccine was immediately withdrawn from use and the government commenced an investigation.

When people claim that vaccines have “never been tested” they usually mean that they have not undergone randomized placebo controlled trials (RCTs). To do an RCT of a vaccine you would need to take two groups of kids, give one group the vaccine, and the other a placebo, then expose both groups to the disease to see which ones survive. Raise your hand if you can see the problem here…

Not only would such an experiment be unethical, it’s unnecessary. We have extensive evidence demonstrating the effectiveness of vaccines; the eradication of smallpox and the near-eradication of polio from the world are just two examples.

Myth 5: Vaccines don’t work because children who are vaccinated can still get the disease.

No vaccine is 100% effective, and since everybody’s physiology is different, not everyone will develop immunity to the same degree; a vaccine is not a force field. But while you can still breathe in a virus or pick up bacteria off a door handle, the seriousness of the disease will be significantly reduced if you have been vaccinated. In the case of pertussis or whooping cough, severe complications such as seizures and pneumonia occur almost exclusively in unvaccinated people and one in every 200 babies who contract the disease will die.

Also, vaccine-induced and naturally acquired immunity fades over time. Notably, immunity from the whooping cough is not lifelong and infected adults, including child care workers and early years professionals, may be passing the infection on to children. This is why it is so important to get boosters if you are around young kids – especially those who are too young to be vaccinated. If you’re a parent make sure you, the grandparents, and other relatives and friends have boosters before they get to meet baby. Talk to your GP for advice on pertussis boosters (which are free until June 2012 in Victoria).

Myth 6: Improved living standards, not vaccination have reduced disease.

Iron lung CDC 380x250 9 vaccination myths busted. With science!

The iron lung, the machine used to keep polio patients alive.

The three most significant factors in the reduction of infectious disease have been clean water, sewerage systems, and vaccination. But even in isolation, vaccination has made a huge dent in reducing rates of disease. Following the introduction of the national meningococcal C immunisation program in January 2003, the number of cases decreased by 39% while numbers of people admitted to hospital with the disease was down by 47%. When the Haemophilus influenzae type B (Hib) vaccination was introduced into Australia in 1992 there was a 94% reduction in cases in children under the age of five (the most frequent illnesses caused by Hib are meningitis, septicemia and pneumonia). Yet living conditions in Australia have changed only marginally since 1992 or 2003. Vaccines have also significantly reduced suffering from the complications of infectious disease. Whilst mortality from polio was less than twenty percent, complications such as paralysis, skeletal deformities, and prolonged immobility during confinement in an iron lung caused significant suffering, all of which were eliminated by widespread vaccination.

Myth 7: Infectious diseases are not serious; children are meant to get them.

Just because they’re called “childhood diseases” doesn’t mean it’s okay for kids to get them and neither are they necessarily benign. Let’s take a look at whooping cough as an example, since Australia has been the grips of an epidemic for several years now.

Whooping cough is much more than “just a bad cough”. Kids often turn blue from lack of oxygen during coughing fits, they may vomit after severe attacks, and even fracture ribs. There is no cure for whooping cough – antibiotics are given to help stop the transmission to others – you just have to hope your immune system can fight it. Severe complications such as pneumonia and brain damage occur almost exclusively in unvaccinated people and in babies under 6 months of age the symptoms can be severe or life threatening. Whooping cough is also known as the 100-day cough making it a chronic and potentially fatal disease.

If you still think infectious diseases are harmless, wander through your local cemetery one day and note how many children died from diseases that we no longer see in society today – stamped out largely due to mass vaccination. Some of us are old enough to remember the images of children in iron lungs and calipers during the scourge of polio, which was wiped out by vaccination.

Myth 8: Vaccines cause or spread the diseases they are supposed to prevent.

vaccination syringes 380x506 9 vaccination myths busted. With science!

It's easy to make vaccinations look terrifying, but they're a child's best friend.

Experiencing a slight temperature and/or a sore arm after getting a vaccine is actually a good thing. While some people misinterpret this as “getting the flu after the flu vaccine” it simply indicates that your immune system is responding. Vaccines work by priming your immune system with a part of the disease, usually inactivated particles or a fraction of the organism, so that it can make antibodies. This means next time you come across the disease in the environment your body is ready with an arsenal of antibodies to attack it before it can make you really sick.

Vaccines are not 100% safe – no medical intervention is without risk – and mistakes do happen. In the 1950s in America there was a spate of cases of polio caused by the vaccine, but this was due to a mistake in the manufacturing process and was quickly corrected. Regulations, monitoring and quality control has greatly increased since that time, meaning incidents such as this are very unlikely to be repeated. The risks associated with the disease greatly outweigh the risk from a vaccine.

Myth 9: My child’s immune system will be overwhelmed.

Some parents worry that vaccines weaken or overwhelm the immune system, particularly when given to babies or when multiple vaccines are given at the same time. Children are exposed to many foreign particles on a daily basis through activities such as routine eating, drinking and playing and vaccines contain only a tiny number in comparison to what children encounter every day in their environment. The amount of immune challenges that children fight every day (2,000 — 6,000) is significantly greater than the number of antigens in any combination of vaccines (about 150 for the entire vaccination schedule).

More information: This is certainly not an exhaustive list of myths surrounding vaccination. If you’d like to know more, the following sources contain accurate and easy to read information for parents on vaccination including myths, misconceptions and information about the diseases.

Chain of Protection is an initiative of The National Centre for Immunisation Research and Surveillance (NCIRS) which contains lots of vaccine information, videos and more.
The NCIRS also produce the MMR Decision Aid which is a step-by-step guide to the MMR.
A great general resource for parents wanting to know more about vaccination can be found in the Australian Government publication; Understanding Childhood Immunisation Booklet (highly recommended)
General questions about vaccination can be found on the Australian Governments website; Frequently asked Questions About Immunisation
For more detailed information about vaccines, with references to scientific studies, see the Australian Government’s Handbook; Immunisation Myths and Realities, Responding to Arguments about Immunisation
A complete schedule of the current vaccinations required under the National Immunisation Program can be found here.

AVN 4461 Dave Jackson fake redacted 380x99 9 vaccination myths busted. With science!

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Please note: The AVN has flooded the comments section below with pseudo-science and inflated numbers. We have ourselves noticed many people using the same IP address and now an AVN supporter has admitted to posting at least 30 times from just one user, using fake IP addressed. So you’re aware of the tactics used.

If you’re after a more light hearted parody of the refusal to acknowledge real science, check out this video:

So, any questions?

Dr. Rachael Dunlop is a medical researcher, science communicator and campaigner for science-based medicine in Australia, with a special interest in the anti-vaccination movement and alternative medicine.   Rachael started life as a fine artist and graphic designer but was seduced by the secret world of virus and tropical diseases and was lured to university to study science. After 8 years of study in both Adelaide and Sydney, she surfaced with a PhD and an interest in diseases associated with ageing. Now working in medical research she is currently focused on the environmental triggers for motor neuron disease with a special interest in toxins found in blue green algae.   Rachael is a vice president of the Australian Skeptics and a contributor to their magazine and website. She is member of the Mystery Investigators, a science show for kids that uses science to explain the strange and unusual such as UFOs and ghosts. Rachael is a reporter for The Skeptic Zone Podcast which reaches over 7000 listeners worldwide every week. She blogs at the Skeptics Book of PoohPooh and tweets at Dr Rachie. Rachael was the winner of the 2010 Shorty Award for Health and enjoys combining her love of science and art to communicate science to the public.

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1,885 Comments so far

  1. Anja

    I feel that people who are anti-vaccination are copping a lot of flak. My daughter was vaccinated but recently had a seizure (not related to her vaccines) and now while I’m not anti-vaccination, I am cautious of putting her in a position where she could possibly have another seizure. As a parent I don’t feel that this is irresponsible I’m trying to do the best for my daughter. And I know most parents do, and I’m just suggesting that some people are anti-vaccination have had or know someone who has had a bad experience in the past that could possibly be a result of vaccination. At the end of the day we all want the best for our children’s health.
    Somebody below pointed out that there is risk in everything we do everyday, such as if we feed our child they could choke, or we could take them in a car and we could be involved in an accident. It’s a valid point but think about it also, if you did have a child that choked, I’m sure you would be extra careful when feeding them if you had another or might not feed them food that may cause them to choke more easily. Or if you were involved in a car accident you might use a different type of child restraint in the future. The point I’m trying to make is that when something happens that harms our child, we are very cautious and do everything we can to prevent it from happening again. In some cases this may involve vaccination.

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    • KateA

      Anja I answered your question below. To be honest, your daughter is just as likely to have a seizure from a cold or any other febrile illness than a vaccination. Doing your best for your child is vaccinating them but it is certainly worthwhile alleviating your concerns by discussing them with your paediatrician

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    • Sue

      Anja – the most common cause of seizures in children is infective illness causing fever. Some immunisations can cause a fever for a few hours, but most infective illnesses can cause fever for days to weeks..

      One of the things that makes this hard to understand is that we just don’t see many of these diseases any more. Measles is now very uncommon, polio and smallpox eradicated, even chickenpox becoming uncommon. This is all because of systematic and widespread immunisation (which we now take for granted).

      Did you know that measles used to be a common cause of encephalitis?

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  2. Lauren

    I asked a question before but received no answers except criticism for stating that although I chose to vaccinate my child I do understand why some people choose not to vaccinate. What I want to know is there an official statistic on how many children under 5 are not vaccinated in Australia? I just want a straight answer if anyone knows it, not a challenge on what I believe.

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    • Alex

      It’s extremely easy to find this sort of information if you really want to know… http://www.medicareaustralia.gov.au/provider/patients/acir/statistics.jsp

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      • Lauren

        Thank you but don’t see the need for your sarcasm. This was a genuine question and I don’t make a habit of looking up vaccination statistics on the internet I have enough to worry about.

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        • Alex

          I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not part of the internet generation. I can find almost any information immediately with a simple google search if I know the key words. It would take me longer to ask in a website comment section than find it myself. I only make the point of asking when I am trying to make a fool out of a person in an argument (not relevant to you in this instance).

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          • Lauren

            Alex, I don’t know who you consider to be part of the ‘internet generation’. I know how to use the internet but when I work full time, have a family and a house to look after and survive on about 3 or 4 hours broken sleep a night searching for statistics on the internet is not really a priority. I would rather be reading about something like this which concerns my childrens health.
            Just don’t see the need for your sarcasm and condescending answers, what’s wrong with a simple answer.

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            • Deb

              Lauren part of the problem with asking a ‘simple’ question is that the answer can depend on why you want to know.

              For example, are you interested in the number of children who have received no vaccines at all, or the number who have not received the full schedule? What about ones who are on a delayed schedule, so will receive all the vaccines but over a longer time period than recommended? Are you looking at children who are fully vaccinated to 4 or including the boosters in the teen years?

              Then there are the different reasons for not vaccinating. In spite of the loudness of the anti-vaccine lobby, the majority of children who are not fully vaccinated is because of barriers, rather than conscious parental choice. For example the area in WA with the lowest vaccination rates is the east Pilbara. As you can imagine, this area covers many Aboriginal communities which simply don’t have access to health services. The same holds true in cities where people who have to work multiple jobs, don’t have transport or single parent families all have significant difficulties with vaccinating even if they want to. So a straight number of how many are not fully vaccinated will not tell you much about why they aren’t vaccinated and the strength of the lobby.

              Then there’s the fact that things like herd immunity operate locally, not nationally. The Northern Rivers region of NSW, stronghold of the AVN, has the lowest vaccination rate of the state and it is down to around 80%. It makes no difference to the babies of this area if the overall Australian rate is 92%, that can’t protect them. 80% is too low for herd immunity to be effective and predictably, they have the highest rate of pertussis infection in the state.

              So your question is very difficult to answer, especially in a comments section. If you are after the reasons why children aren’t vaccinated the answer may not exist, because parents are never asked. It’s also constantly changing. As a rule of thumb roughly 90% of Australian children are immunised, but if you have a specific question you are interested in you will need to look at different figures.

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            • Alex

              You need to stop being so sensitive, I’m not going to walk on eggshells for you and had you even spent one moment trying to look up the information yourself… you would have found it, I found it in two minutes tops. I am giving simple answers for what it’s worth.

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            • rachaeldunlop

              Hi Lauren, I’m sorry that I didn’t get to answer your question. I’ve also been extremely busy. I hope you find the information you need in the link provided by Alex.

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        • sianmorton

          I think Alex gave a very good answer. It is always better to go directly to the source rather than depend on the second hand opinions and information from people who may or may not know what they are talking about.

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    • Andy

      Did Alex’s link answer your question?
      http://www.medicareaustralia.gov.au/provider/patients/acir/statistics.jsp

      It should be easy enough to use the figures in those tables to calculate the “not fully vaccinated” numbers. Did you want something more specific?

      Note: not being sarcastic, facetious or critical. Just asking.

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  3. Essen

    I do wonder if one of the reasons the anti-vaccination information online is so effective at getting to parents is because it is written in layman’s terms, so it’s easy to understand, while detailed scientific analysis of studies etc is usually written in very dry language, complete with scientific lingo that might be a little difficult for the uninitiated to properly digest. Therefore the anti-vaccination message resonates with parents, and the scientific message doesn’t entirely make sense to them.

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    • David

      You may have a point. I also think that even when written in laymans terms scientific evidence/data tends to be compluicatred as scientists avoid absolutes. Every TV interview of a pro vax scientists (and most of them are) have seen, Robert Buoy, Paul Offit, etc has the interviewer ask if there are risks with vaccination and the interviewee always said that yes there are some risks but they are outwieghed by the benefits. Anti vax people deal in absolutes and this is easier to communicate to the general public. I am yet to see an antivax (sorry, pro vaccine safety) advocate say which vaccines work well and which need to be improved, they ll appear to say that no vaccine is safe.

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    • Andy

      It’s much easier to scare a calm person than calm a scared one. We are irrational animals. We fear the unknown, often without reason. Playing on those fears is easy – and potentially lucrative. Talking someone out of a position of fear is not so easy and it’s been said that rationalising someone out of a position they did not rationalise themselves into is almost impossible.

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    • trixie melodian

      I agree Essen,the antivax movement is very touchy-feely; about “feelings” and “caring for your kids” and “maternal instinct” (how many mums of autistic kids in the antivax lobby say “the doctors dismissed me and told me it couldn’t be the vaccines, but I just *knew* it was). This intense emotive response, usually presented by mothers, speaks very strongly to mums, especially mums of new(ish) babies who are in the throes of a massive, sometimes irrational, hormonally driven desire to protect their babies from anything that might do it harm.

      The provax movement is about statistics, facts, evidence and numbers, often presented by men, doctors, professionals or represented by “faceless Big Pharma”.

      Looking at it totally objectively, I can see which one speaks more strongly to me as a new mum.

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      • Kris2040

        Touchy feeling until you contradict them and prove them wrong.

        A few of us here and in the group I mentioned on Facebook recently had one of the “touchy feely lovin hippies” decide to ask their compadres to pick their most hated pro-vaccination person from Vaccinate Your Baby and say what they’d like to “vaccinate” us with. Battery acid enemas were popular, as were needles of smallpox. Charmers, they are.

        They give hippies a bad name.

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  4. Mum of 2

    Back to the topic!

    Here is my problem with mandatory vaccinations (which I would resist with my last breath). From my own experience (noted in another post previously) GPs do not report all adverse reactions, usually writing them off as something else when sometimes (definitely not all the time, but sometimes) they should be recording them. As the GP does not believe that a reaction that happened within hours could possibly have anything to do with the vacc’ing (except for one of the reactions that had us in the emergency department with ECGs etc being performed on my 5 year old after a 3 in 1 shot), for all intents and purposes my kids are ‘fine’ with vacc, as I am certain the GP would not sign anything to suggest otherwise. This would mean that if vacc were mandatory I would be forced into vacc’ing my kids with everything that is in the schedule. With my past experience I know that my oldest child does not do well with vaccination and it would be the equivalent of somebody deliberately injuring my child with the message ‘well you would get an even WORSE injury if I didn’t do it’. I am not talking about just a bit of a red spot at the injection site. Would you let someone do something to your child that you knew had a very high likelihood of injuring them? Pro or anti vacc, I am sure most parents would defend their child and do everything in their power to not let that happen. Mandatory vacc would take away my ability to protect my child as the system is already failing them so I have to pick up where the system has holes and do my best for them in its absence.

    There are plenty of kids who unfortunately don’t sail through vaccinations just fine with no ill effects at all. These kids are obviously not part of the majority but they do exist.

    I’ll say again (as I did in my other post, but that would be buried amongst 900+ others) that my children are mostly vaccinated. One of my children copes fine with vacc, but one does not and never has. This child does not fit into any particular box (like ASD) so you won’t find this child showing up in any statistic, but I can tell you that this does not mean that I have not spent countless hours at appointments, therapies (not homeopathic related ones – speech therapy, physiotherapy, occupational therapy) etc to help this child. Medical science (the same apparently infallible, all knowing, one that tells me that vaccinations are safe) does not know what the problem is. There are kids who won’t show up in any stats who DO have very real issues that affect their day to day life in obvious ways. My child is one of them.

    Now my concern is not that every child will be affected in a negative way by vacc’ing (I am fully aware that it is quite the contrary and that the vast majority of kids will barely register even a small discomfort at the time of the shot). My concern is that I just really wish I had a truer picture (one that I felt I could 100% trust) of just what the real level of reactions was. If MY GP doesn’t feel the need to report what look like obvious reactions (to me – and no I am not a scientist, just a reasonable, non-hysterical, educated person), then I am sure they are not the only GP in Australia doing the same. If I felt I could have faith that the adverse reactions register was correct I would feel much better about hearing that reactions are rare. Maybe they truly are, but my experience would suggest that the number reported is not accurate. I can only imagine how sick a child would need to become (and how instantly it must happen) for a GP to think it worth reporting.

    So until I trust the ‘system’ (for want of a much better way to put it), I will not place my child 100% into its care. I will continue to decide for myself what is best for my child, as every other parent does. As I have said we have eventually chosen to mostly vaccinate, but I take each and every vacc very seriously, and each and every time it is a horrendous mental-white-knuckle-ride where I just hope every time that I am not doing the wrong thing and that this time the benefits will outweigh the negatives.

    Am I crazy, irresponsible, a hippy, uneducated and all the other names being thrown around for not accepting 100% that I am supposed to go one way on this debate? I still don’t think so even after reading all 900 posts on this issue. I appreciate all the sides of this argument and have read them with great interest, as I am smart enough to know that I don’t know everything about this issue and I continue to look at all the information and realise that I do not have to take an all-or-nothing stance. I welcome the original article and all of the (respectful) debate that it generated.

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    • Deb

      No-one is talking about compulsory or mandatory vaccination in Australia. That is called a strawman argument, because you are arguing against something that no-one has proposed.

      And you don’t need a GP to report reactions, anyone can put in a report to ADRAC and it will be investigated. Of course the investigation may find it has nothing to do with vaccinations – would you accept that finding?

      I would definitely accept a finding that it was caused by vaccines, because we know they aren’t 100% safe. I also support a compensation scheme for people who have been hurt by vaccines. I only ask that there is more to it than gut feeling.

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      • Mum of 2

        Hi Deb,

        Thanks for your reply. The more recent posts have not been talking about mandatory vacc but there have been plenty of strongly worded requests for it scattered throughout the 900 posts here. I probably should have written my post in direct reply to one of those though to give it more context.

        The thing about reporting adverse reactions is that it definitely is not made common knowledge about how to report a reaction and a ‘reasonable person’ (I use that term in the same way that laws are made based on what the ‘reasonable person’ would do – I’m not suggesting at all that you are ‘unreasonable’!) would have no clue about it and would assume that it is firmly in the GP ballpark to report that a product that they have been directly involved in administering has been ‘faulty’ (in the same way that in the early days of purchasing a product it commonly falls to the shopkeeper to return it to the manufacturer, rather than the purchaser having to do it). ‘Faulty’ is not quite the right word as in this case there was probably nothing wrong with the product, it just didn’t work the way it was intended with the child, but hopefully you get my meaning – the GP is the ‘seller’ and there was a ‘problem’.

        The thing is that I am not suggesting that all my child’s problems have been caused by vaccination (who knows – maybe they were, maybe they weren’t. If I had to point to one I would probably say it would have been the 4 month one as that was one of the ones with the most dramatic reactions, but I still wouldn’t know for sure, in the same way they can’t say for sure it wasn’t that because science still does not know everything yet). What I am saying is that when a child has a reaction that to any reasonable person would look like it was a direct reaction from a direct event, (eg my child who usually doesn’t register much pain crying in agony hours after a 6-in-1 shot in the same arm that is now covered in a big red blotch from elbow to shoulder) that it doesn’t make much sense for them to claim that the two events are not related – at least not enough to report it as a ‘likely’ adverse reaction. There are too many reactions that are not reported. I have no idea how many this is (maybe it is miniscule and the vast majority of GPs do report each reaction) but I wish I COULD know.

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        • Jane DJ

          You say “The thing about reporting adverse reactions is that it definitely is not made common knowledge about how to report a reaction and a ‘reasonable person’ ……would have no clue about it and would assume that it is firmly in the GP ballpark to report that a product that they have been directly involved in administering has been ‘faulty’ ”

          It took 30 seconds of googling “reporting vaccination reactions in australia” to get to this page
          http://www.health.wa.gov.au/vaccination/wavss.cfm

          which has this information:

          Who may report an AEFI in WA?
          Following any necessary medical assessment or treatment, members of the public can use the new system to report adverse reactions to immunisation that they or a children/family member may have experienced.

          Should all AEFIs be reported?

          Any significant event following immunisation should be reported.
          You do not need to report common minor reactions.
          Any vaccine reaction which requires assessment by a doctor or nurse, or which has affected a family’s confidence in future immunisation should be reported.

          For all the research that the educated anti-vaxers claim to do, it seems strange to also claim that this kind of info is apparently not made common knowlege.

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          • David

            Jane, my google search for “vaccination adverse event report australia” came up with my local (victorian) reporting website in 0.24 s!
            For Mum of 2, I am one of those people who have adverse events to vaccines, swelling fever (I am nearly 35 and it still happens), I have had my arm swell up to a point where it is difficult to move. I am one of the unlucky ones but with a nephew and a niece under 18 months old I got me DTaP, MMR and anything I could get my hands on to reduce their risk.

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        • Deb

          Fair enough, the thread is getting a bit long to keep up with and I’ve only joined recently. Sorry I didn’t know about the earlier bits.

          I understand where you are coming from, but there must be vast differences in practice around Australia. I’ve been given sheets with the common side effects as well as being told about them, and on the sheet is also a number to ring if you’re worried (something like 1800 HEALTH) and a different number to report reactions. Obviously the system you use can make a big difference.

          Using your analogy of faulty items, I have been in that situation and not got help from the supplier. In which case I’ve used things like the ACCC, contacting the manufacturer directly and the ombudsman. There are avenues for reasonable people if they feel they are not being taken seriously.

          I get your point that not everything is being reported. But surely the more serious reactions are more likely to be reported?

          And to re-iterate I don’t support mandatory vaccination either, and I do support compensation. There are definitely reactions and they should be acknowledged and supported.

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        • David

          Hi Mum of 2, I am one of those people who have adverse events to vaccines, swelling fever (I am nearly 35 and it still happens), I have had my arm swell up to a point where it is difficult to move. I am one of the unlucky ones but with a nephew and a niece under 18 months old I got me DTaP, MMR and anything I could get my hands on to reduce their risk.

          ane, My google search for “vaccination adverse event report australia” came up with my local (victorian) reporting website in 0.24 s!

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    • Sue

      Mum of 2 – it is clear that you are trying to do your best for your children, but I would like to respectfully question some of your assumptions.

      Firstly, I’m sure your GP has hundreds of children amongst her or his patient population, and has probably administered thousands of vaccinations. I also feel confident that the GP would not like to be responsible for unnecessarily hurting children. What makes you think that their judgment is unreliable?

      Secondly, while I feel your frustration at trying to get some clear answers for your child, there may not be one simple answer. Can you see that, if someone offered you a simple answer, they may be dishonest? It’s natural to want to blame some event, but that doesn’t mean it is valid.

      I don’t get any sense that you are either crazy or uneducated, but I also suspect that a better understanding of immunisation and medical science may make you more reassured.

      Why not book a time with your GP just to talk, without your children, to go over what happened to your child and how your GP has interpreted it?

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      • Kris2040

        I’m also kind of wondering why the GP is the one administering the jabs? The immunisation clinics always give a handout with adverse reactions that may be possible and what to do should your kid have them. And they encourage you to hang around and to ask questions.

        I have my daughter’s 6 month jabs on Thursday, I’m more than happy to report what I get given – I haven’t kept the others so can’t quote from them, but pretty sure they’re NSW Health handouts.

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        • Lu

          Its probably convenience going to a GP over the clinic. I’ve always taken my kids to the GP because I can make an appointment to suit me, our local clinic only gives vaccinations on set days and the waiting time is often unpredictable.

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      • Mum of 2

        Hi Sue. I’m trying really hard not to be offended by some of the things you’ve posted because I’m reminding myself that you don’t know me past what I have posted and it doesn’t sound like you are truly trying to suggest that I am really not very bright – you are just expressing an opinion. Here is the thing… I am certainly well aware that there is no simple answer to what is going on with my child (I would hope that I am intelligent enough for that). This child does not, and has not, ever fit into a particular box. I am not certainly not saying that I believe that vaccines are definitely the cause. I am saying that we don’t know with this child WHAT the cause is (sorry about the capitals – I would have preferred using italics there!) so how can we rule anything in particular out? I’m supposed to believe that even though we don’t know what the cause is, that it is definitely not one particular possibliity? Something is causing these problems in our kids, and it could have nothing to do with vaccines and everything to do with where we live, and what we eat etc. The crux of it is that we don’t know. The scientists don’t know, the GPs don’t know – these people that I am being told to trust completely as all knowing and infallible do not have the answers. I accept that, and I accept that we will probably never know (it has been a long road to this acceptance). When it comes to a vaccination I just have an extra issue to consider that most people never have to worry about. I have obviously gone ahead with most of the child’s vaccinations, despite my strong reservations, which should show that I am not all or nothing on this topic. It appears from a lot of the posts that you can only be 100% one way or the other – I’m not. I do not feel strongly enough either anti or pro vacc to believe that I can tell other people to vaccinate or not. I am well aware that I do not hold a degree in science and as such don’t feel that I can speak as knowledgeably on this topic as someone who wants to advocate one way or another for other people. I can however understand the feelings on both sides and believe that most other parents are as concerned about their children as I am. Amongst my friends I have people who have done all, some or none of the schedule (mostly ‘all’ though probably!).

        I have had several conversations with my GP to the point that she gave me the conscientious objector form to sign as she could see that I was not making any decisions on a whim and she said that it would at least stop medicare harrassing me. I signed it, but have chosen to give some more vaccinations since then. Each time my GP practically air-punches, but she has finally figured out that if she leaves me alone I will make my own choices and don’t appreciate feeling bullied into anything

        My problem with medicine is that it definitely has its place. If I have a broken bone I am definitely going to go to the Dr. But there is a whole lot that we don’t know much about that still has an impact on us. If we really thought we knew everything we would stop looking for cures for cancer, we would stop researching the rainforests for new plants that might help us in our quest for good health, we would stop looking for better ways to treat illnesses because we would accept that we know everything we can know and that we have exhausted all possibilities. We haven’t though as science as a meaningful occupation still exists so obviously science accepts that too – we don’t yet have all the answers. I have seen therapies work that have absolutely no business working – that would look like complete quackery and I am sure would not pass a ‘scientific test’. But for some weird reason they HAVE worked. It is not just my own observation that they have worked. I have also plenty of examples of when western medicine has failed us (sending my husband home from hospital with a panadol when he was dangerously close to a burst appendix – which eventually happened when he drove back to the hospital a second time just hours later). Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t and that is just the imperfect world we live in. I am to completely trust my GP and give the vacc and also completely trust them when they say my child didn’t react to the vacc, but then go behind their back and report it anyway? It’s kind of inconsistent advice. I just hate that I have to make those decisions about something so critical, when I know that I don’t know everything about everything (noone does). I wish I COULD be 100% on either side as it would actually make it easier if I could say I firmly believe one way or the other and make decisions accordingly – the fact is I don’t, and continue to ride the roller coaster and just make the best decisions I can each time.

        Questioning the world around me is not a crime.

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        • Geoff

          So well said. Science does not have all the answers. As a physicist I can tell you there is so much unknown and it is exactly the same for medical science. Vaccination should be considered as an advancement but by no means should anyone wish it mandatory. Some of the comments from the pro mandatory vaccination group are disgusting, just plain disgusting.

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          • Mia

            I wish it was mandatory. Like seatbelts.

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          • Kris2040

            What are the disgusting comments, Geoff? I’m unashamedly pro-vaccination. I don’t understand why it isn’t linked to medicare. As in unless you have a legitimate reason to not be vaccinated – medical, not “a vibe” or a “belief” – ie NO conscientious objection, you get cut off from Medicare.
            The thing with those of us in the pro-camp, is that we actually acknowledge the good AND the bad that can happen with vaccines. But we also know that to protect those who CAN’T be vaccinated, everyone else needs to be.
            I’ll throw it in again too – anyone who submits a Conscientious Objector form to Medicare should not get the Maternity Immunisation Allowance either.
            There’s a vast difference between CAN’T and WON’T.

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            • Andy

              As much as I’m here defending against anti-vaxer nonsense, I do think that in a world where people are allowed to drink, smoke and eat fatty food, that cutting people from Medicare based on their vaccination status might be just a tad hypocritical.

              But I wholeheartedly agree that paying an immunisation benefit to people who choose not to immunise for any non-medical reason is bollocks and should be stopped.

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            • Kris2040

              I don’t think it’s hypocritical – smoking, drinking and eating shit food doesn’t lead to outbreaks of deadly diseases killing others that are avoidable.
              Not getting vaccinated when it’s available and recommended is a sad “Stick it to the Man” attempt and they should be treated as the spoilt brats they are.

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            • Andy

              But even drink drivers, who do put others at risk, are still treated under Medicare. Smokers too.

              I think there are other ways, such as school registrations, to deal with people who choose to put others at risk by not vaccinating. Just as we can legislate against the risks posed by drunk drivers and close down opportunities for smokers to affect others, I imagine there are ways to minimise the risk posed by anti-vaxers.

              But, first and foremost, I think the government(s) needs to show some responsibility by dealing with the errant nonsense that’s out there about medicine in general. Frankly, if it weren’t for discussions like this, I would be unaware vaccination was such a problem in Australia. And I wouldn’t have known about this article if I wasn’t already a Dr Rachie supporter.

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  5. Sunny

    I’m very glad you’ve done this post. A shocking amount of people are misinfomed about vaccinations and an even more shocking number of children die each year of preventable diseases like measels, mumps and rebella. Go team MamaMia.

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  6. Mum of 2

    I have just looked back through all 4 pages to find the replies to a post I made (I received notification of them in my inbox) but for the life of me I can’t find it? So if the posters who basically said that people who don’t agree with vacc’ing 100% are usually uneducated etc think that I am hiding from responding, please know that I have several refutations to present but just in case mamamia deliberately deleted the other posters comments because of the inflammatory core message, I will keep them to myself for now as I don’t wish to deliberately break the forum rules (I really like it here, love the conversations that usually arise regarding the articles, and would like to stay! :-) ) and re open something that mamamia wanted closed. I just didn’t like the idea of these people thinking that I was in hiding because I had no response.

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    • David

      Hi Mum of 2, Strangely enough people who are anti vax have a tendancy to have a higher level of education (university degrees etc). One school of thought is that people who are educated and often in professional jobs have a tendancy to want to know about what is happening to them or their kids as a result of medical proceedures etc. Where the problem lies is that a PhD in Economics allows you to have the knowledge to find information but without a relevant background the processing of the knowledge is difficult if not impossible. Medical doctors spend about 10 – 12 years post high school to become fully qualified doctors, for a scientist in medical research it is 8 – 9 years to become a independent researcher. If these people work 40 hours a week and 48 weeks a year (and it is always a lot more than this) it means that doctors and scientists will have studied or have actually practiced their skills for 19200 and 15360 hours respectively. No amount of partime Dr Google will give you that background, and remember these times are to even beginning beignna doctor or scientist not counting the decades of practice and research that follow. Education is important but it has to be in the relevant field which is why most anti vax people do not have medical backgrounds Dr Schreiber is a geologist, Meryl Dorey has not qualification that I am aware of, and so on. That being said there are a very small number of doctor’s who are antivax. Thanks for your indulgence

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  7. Saku

    Ah, it is always funny discussing the subject with anti-vaxxers….

    Did you know my Brothers, Best Friends neighbors dogs oldest from second litter of puppies happens to work for Big Pharma and has told me many of the secrets about them… such as how they put methyl mercury in ALL childhood vaccines as a means of population control…. oh…. and Mind Control chips… don’t forget them!

    *Sarcasm*
    *Sarcasm*
    *Sarcasm*

    Seriously…. If I can make such a claim then how can you really trust anyone who claims to have second-hand knowledge from a friend or has done accurate “personal” research when the internet is full of bogus claims such as this? Sorry – if you want to do your research, talk to someone who actually has a qualification related to the field – Basically: A pediatrician or doctor who holds an actual medical degree (Remember, you can have a PHD in music, parsnip handling or any other field – so the title Dr does not automatically mean qualified).

    SImply put, there is only one justified informed choice unless there is an immunological reason not to have them – and that is to vaccinate your children. If not, not only are you being irresponsible in ensuring your child is healthy, but putting other vulnerable children at risk.

    Oh, and about being an expert in the field – I have a Degree in Biomedical Science and mid-way through my Masters year… and no, I am not going to claim I am an expert in the field, even if I am sure I understand more then antivaxxers who claim to have ten, twenty plus years of “research”.

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    • Sue

      When we talk of having done “research”, it’s also important to understand the difference between actually conducting research (ie measuring and discovering things) as opposed to “doing your research” by just reading stuff. I could “do my research” about what is the best fridge to buy by looking at all sorts of site on the net – from the manufacturer’s specs, to the consumer organisation’s review, to someone’s blog site.

      That would be very different from, say, doing actual research into immunisation reactions – either looking at entire data registries or directly observing thousands of children under controlled conditions.

      Most ideological “advocates” who say they have done “years of research” don’t actually mean they have conducted measurements or experiments – they mean that they have read everything they can get their hands on, from blogs to websites to published research.

      Then, when reading medical research, you need to know what you need to know. In order to make a good assessment of published studies, you need to read the entire paper (not just the abstract), clarify what the research question was, look at whether it was adequately powered to show a difference between various arms (ie adequate numbers). The you need to see whether their inclusion and exclusion criteria are valid, data analysis used the right statistical methods, whether they quoted means, ranges, number needed to treat – a whole array of factors that determine how credible the conclusions are.

      It’s not easy to be a self-taught medical researcher.

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      • Anonymous

        I wish they taught this in schools.

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  8. JJ

    Hi everyone I just wanted to know if there are any side effects for your child if you are late in getting them vaccinated. My 13 month little girl was sick for over a month with colds, and I was unable to her 12 month vaccination. We are booked in at the end of the week, but after reading all the comments I am wondering if I should move up the appointment.

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    • Saku

      From the top of my head, there are no real side effects except during the period of time she is not vaccinated, she has a greater risk of catching the diseases the vaccinations protect against.

      I am not a Doctor so I am not going to make a claim about what you should do, but it is really up to you… if you are concerned and you want to put it forward, it would protect her sooner, but otherwise the appointment at the end of the week would be sufficient.

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      • sianmorton

        There is no problem delaying vaccinations like you have described, however it is always best to seek advice from your own general practitioner or nurse immuniser. Although there is a lot of very good information available on the internet, including this forum, there is also a lot of misinformation and it is not always easy to tell them apart. A good place to start looking for reliable vaccination information for people in Australia is http://www.immunise.health.gov.au. You can also search online for your own state or territory vaccination schedule. From this you can find the consumer product information sheets for all the vaccines in your particular schedule.

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    • Faybian

      Just stick with the appt you’ve already made. There are no side effects to waiting a bit longer.

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    • From my experience and it is only my experience I have had to delay vaccination due to illness with a couple of my children by a few weeks up to a month and they have not had any adverse effects.
      BUT this is only what has occurred in my case.
      I would chat to your Dr if you have concerns and see what they suggest.

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    • Jecoro

      From my point of view (as a nurse who gives adults vaccinations) your childs vaccination being one month late probably wont have any side effects, but I am not a childhood immunisation expert. If your child is unwell with a virus the advice is to wait until they are better to have the immunisation. l would phone the clinic/doctors where you have your child immunised and check with them for some reassurance.

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      • JJ

        Thanks everyone, I think I will call sooner rather than later.:)

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    • Essen

      We had to keep delaying my daughter’s 12 month shots as she was plagued by middle ear infections at the time, complete with high temps, etc. I think she was 15 months by the time she got them.

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      • Faybian

        It’s the high temps that will do it. If your child has a sniffle or mild cough, then no problems. If they have a high temp, a chest infection or are generally unwell, put it off. The only true contraindication is high temp, but I personally wouldn’t do it to a baby/small child if I was the mother and I immunise kids.

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        • Kris2040

          I was under the impression that the ages in the schedule aren’t for the best chance of the vaccine working, but it’s the earliest age that the kids are deemed OK to handle the jabs, and it also takes into account the ages when kids are considered most susceptible?

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          • Faybian

            I know that there is a variation in the schedule from country to country, for example we encourage people to start vaccination at 6 weeks ATM, but can’t remember an ideal range right now. Will have to look it up at work today.

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          • Faybian

            The schedules for different countries are remarkably similar (eg 2,4 & ^ months) with the notable exception of NZ (6 wks,3 & 5 months) and a few minor differences with the actual vaccines. Our handbook gives more age ranges for the effectiveness of the immunisations, but advises to stick to the schedule as much as possible

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    • MotherR

      I spaced my child’s vaccinations out, not in any exaggerated way, but just so that he didn’t have to have so many on one day! To me, it is just over the top to give a small baby/child two or three different things on one day – especially when one of the shots was a triple.

      He definitely reacted badly to the four-month (I think) triple shot. Not a dramatic reaction, but he cried more, and slept like he was ‘drugged’ for a day or so. It was quite obvious. And who knows if it affected him long term? I guess we are all risking things just by having children.

      I think they have so many in one day just to make it easier from an administrative point of view. The clinics I went to didn’t have a problem with it.

      NOTE: The only thing you have to be aware of is that if you have one on a certain day, you can’t then go back within a certain time frame (a month from memory) to have another shot, because the previous vaccine is still live (or something like that – the clinics will tell you this). Hence, the spacing, making your child a bit older when they have their final shots.

      Also, if your child has been sick, it might be better to wait until she is clear and then rush in for the next one.

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      • Deb

        It’s not administrative convenience, it’s mostly parental convenience. A lot of parents aren’t lucky enough to be home with their children or be able to take time off work for appointments. Or they may be relying on public transport or lifts. Getting two or three toddlers and babies in to a clinic or doctor and waiting with them until your appointment then getting them home can be an enormous undertaking. Throw in some language or cultural barriers just for fun. Having to do it every month would make it much less likely that vaccinations would happen at all because the barriers just become too big. Being able to go more often is a priveleged position.

        And I’ve been told about, but not seen for myself, research that children who are taken in more often begin to react to vaccination clinics. I don’t know the age, I seriously doubt it was young babies, but they remember what happened and don’t like going back there.

        However, the response you mention is perfectly normal. After all, he’s just been carried around the countryside to strangers then stuck with a needle, you would expect him to be upset. Babies face several thousand antigens every day just through breathing and their immune system copes just fine. Remember a vaccine contains a fraction of the antigenic load something like a sneeze or contact with an infectious person does. Whether they get 3 or 6 in one visit makes very little difference to their bodies.

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        • MotherR

          DON’T patronise me.

          I assume you are a medical professional. If I went to you with the symptoms I mentioned (unusual crying and being almost zonked out over a reasonable period of time) and you told me it was because the baby was taken out of the house and had a needle (just the needle), I would seriously question your diagnostic skills and would find someone else to go to. Very condescending to deny an observation of a parent who spends every hour with a child since birth.

          For a start, a four-month old doesn’t care where they are. He has been out from the house every day from a couple of weeks of age.

          Secondly, the place where I took him was THREE DOORS FROM MY HOUSE!!!! Theory thrown out.

          None of this would distress a four-month old. My baby didn’t care about being left with others until he was about six months, which I think is about average for that development.

          Also, do you think if I had taken him three doors down the street to receive a needle to have blood taken for instance, and have nothing introduced to his body, that he would have been crying and zonked out for over a day? I am willing to bet that he wouldn’t. Oh, yes, I forgot – that trauma of my carrying him down the road a few doors must have really affected him.

          As for the other part: parental language barriers, transport arrangements and so on still come under the administration banner, not the medical one.

          And, let’s not get started on the idea of being privileged when making the choice to stay home and look after your baby. Privileged is not the correct term. A lot of sacrifices are made and we all know what they are: career, stimulation, material comforts, financial security, personal identity and so on.

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          • Deb

            I’m sorry you took that as patronising, perhaps you shouldn’t make assumptions. I’m not a medical professional but I am at home with my children. I’m also experienced at living and working in areas with extremely disadvantaged people, who do have all the barriers I mentioned and do have poor vaccination rates attributable to them.

            If you live three doors down from where you get your vaccinations and are at home with your kids then you are very privileged in terms of the barriers to vaccination, which was the subject of the post. Can you see that people can have privilege in some areas and not others? A good general example would be a white professional woman – she is privileged in terms of her education and earning ability, but disadvantaged due to sexism. What other priveleges or disadvantages you may have are irrelevant to a discussion on ease of vaccination. As you said – why even bring it up?

            I’m not even sure where the claim that they are medical barriers comes from, it certainly wasn’t me. I said they were to help make it easier for parents to get to vaccination appointments, which I’ll agree is about the administration of vaccines now that I understand what you mean by that. I thought you were talking about the paperwork and recording type of administration.

            Go for it – you know your baby and he was upset by the vaccine. I’m not sure how that changes the fact that it is a normal and expectable reaction, one you’re told about when you get the vaccine. I have no idea how babies react to blood draws, not having been unfortunate enough to be in that position. I imagine they get pretty darn upset. But I think it’s reasonable that in a discussion about vaccination to assume that ‘a needle’ refers to a vaccination rather than some other medical procedure, and the average person isn’t privileged to live three doors away. I’m sorry I should have known that.

            And it doesn’t change the fact that 6003 versus 6006 antigens in one day really isn’t that much of a difference. (That number is plucked out of thin air because I keep finding ‘thousands’ as an estimate of number of antigens in a day. 2003 vs 2006 isn’t that different either.)

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            • MotherR

              Phew, glad I won’t end up in your office then. You were spouting as though you were an expert on how my baby should be reacting to vaccination though, hence my assumption.

              Spare me the lecture on priviledge. I am also experienced at living and working in areas with disadvantaged people. And, I’ve studied enough social science to choke on.

              I’ve read your post again, and it is still rubbish. You are completely missing the points I was trying to make to you. The example of the blood draw was simply to say that this reaction was not about my baby being ‘upset’. He was four months, for goodness sake. At that age, if he just had had a stab with a needle, and nothing introduced to his body, he probably would have forgotten it as soon as we walked out of the clinic. He would not have cried and slept in an out-of-character fashion for the time period that he did.

              And the reason I said we only went three doors was nothing to do with my position of privilege, it was to counter your idea that his reaction might have been due to the fact that “he’s just been carried around the countryside to strangers then stuck with a needle, you would expect him to be upset.”

              An absolutely silly statement. As I said, before six months, he didn’t give two hoots about strangers.

              The main point of the comment was that if my son reacted like this, then how do we know that SOME more vulnerable children are not having more severe and permanent reactions but the most aren’t? We are never going to know, if these observations are constantly being shut down by the ‘rational science model’, which is after all only one way of looking at the world.

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            • Anonymous

              Good Lord Deb – as an observer reading this, I feel I need to stick up for you!!! MotherR would you please read over these posts agian and see that Deb was making general comments on society not an attack on you!!! There is absolutely no way anyone knows all about you and your circumstances from a couple of paragraphs… also in the written form we are missing 90 or so percent of how a message is intented as there in not tone or boby language.
              I get your point that yes it makes it easier in an administrative way which is what Deb was agreeing on and she was just also adding that it also makes it easier on parents in some circumstances as well – she was keeping it general not directed at you!!!
              Deb, I have enjoyed reading your posts here over the last few days, you give a very open viewpoint and see all sides and perspectives – just like you did MotherR until I think you may have taken something personally which was not intended to be that way….
              Now – ( I hope this is ok to write!) babies may react a little differently as they have been injected with something that is supposed to cause a reaction in the human body (I am not medical scientist and not claiming to know anything really – which I am sure I will be shot down for that alone shortly!) but as a Mother I would presume that the body is adjusting so they may feel a little out of sorts – just like if you have had a vaccination you may remember this – I remember the tetanus one hurting for a few days and a baby doesnt know how to rationalist or communicate this so they cry – normal reaction as they feel ‘out of sorts’ I guess – dont react and shoot me down it just a common sense approach!
              Some here need to just calm down!

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            • Deb

              You’re right. If that’s your point I’ve completely misunderstood you because I thought this topic was about the number of vaccines given at once and the reasons behind the schedule. Not about possible severe reactions. That’s the first time that’s come up.

              I also made the mistake of trying to be reassuring that your baby’s reaction was normal and expected. I’ve already apologised that you thought the tone was patronising. I did not belittle it, I did not say it didn’t happen, just that it’s a normal way for babies to react to a vaccine and the appointment. I know this because it’s exactly what I’ve been told might happen in every single vaccine appointment I’ve done with my kids.

              If your baby coped fine with going out a lot and being hurt, great. Aren’t you lucky. It doesn’t mean every baby does and it doesn’t make it unreasonable to think that babies could be screaming and sleeping after the stress of an appointment, especially if it’s included public transport, other siblings, waiting, other upset babies and a stressed Mum. You can think it’s rubbish, for other Mums it’s reality.

              And yes, it’s possibly related to something being introduced to his body, but you seem to be saying that more things at once are worse. All I’m trying to do is point out that things are introduced to their bodies all the time, every time they breathe, or eat, or cut themselves. If your child has never had an off day with lots of crying and sleep (or whatever it was that he did, because I’m just going on your description) without a vaccination then lucky you. My babies had off days several times without vaccinations. They even had 24 hour fevers. One of them slept all day once with nothing else I could see, and given her usual sleeping habits that was extremely weird. Their immune systems are coping with things all the time, not just when they have vaccines.

              If you’re worried about possible severe reactions, no-one has ever ignored them. They are well known and watched for. That is why you are asked questions before a vaccine is given and asked to wait afterwards, and why there is a mechanism for reporting reactions. I’m sorry if you know all this and think I’m being patronising again, but you ask
              “how do we know that SOME more vulnerable children are not having more severe and permanent reactions”
              We do know that they ARE, so there are precautions in place. The vaccines are tested in combination for precisely that reason. You didn’t trust those tests and precautions and decided to do your own thing and that’s your right, but it doesn’t mean they haven’t been done.

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            • MotherR

              Goodness, now I have to wade through two people’s waffle.

              Here goes:
              To Anonymous
              1. “MotherR would you please read over these posts agian and see that Deb was making general comments on society not an attack on you!!! ”
              - Never said it was an attack.

              2. “in the written form we are missing 90 or so percent of how a message is intented”
              - Agree. Same goes for my messages.

              3. “I get your point that yes it makes it easier in an administrative way which is what Deb was agreeing on”
              - No. This from her comment: “It’s not administrative convenience”

              4. “I think you may have taken something personally”
              - Yep. My observations of my baby and the implications. Personal.

              5. “Some here need to just calm down!”
              - I’m very calm. Remember, you can’t read tone in these messages.

              6. “I remember the tetanus one hurting…”
              - A jab hurting wouldn’t zonk him out for over a day.

              To Deb
              1. “I thought this topic was about the number of vaccines given at once and the reasons behind the schedule. Not about possible severe reactions.”
              - One follows the other. I spaced them out precisely because of the possible severe reactions with multiple combinations.

              2.”reassuring that your baby’s reaction was normal and expected. I’ve already apologised that you thought the tone was patronising.”
              - I didn’t really need reassuring – “normal” doesn’t equate to desired – and you don’t need to apologise to me (as discussed, tone is hard to infer).

              3.”We do know that they ARE, so there are precautions in place.”
              - Pardon? What precautions? The only precaution some people feel is reasonable is to not give them to their children at all. It’s TOO LATE once you’ve done it. It won’t matter a bit if you wait in the clinic or not if your child has been damaged.

              4. ” it doesn’t make it unreasonable to think that babies could be screaming and sleeping after the stress of an appointment”
              - How is a four-month old going to be stressed about an appointment? They don’t even know where they are! He wasn’t crying because he was stressed or hurt. He was unwell and you are still missing the point that it is not attributed to anything else but the vaccination. Yes of course he has had off days and has cried his head off and has had fevers and has been ill, and has driven me to despair and rage sometimes but I’m not talking about any of that – only the direct reaction to the vaccination at that age.

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          • Faybian

            MotherR that didn’t come across as patronizing. Babies DO remember us. Some start crying as soon as they see us. Some don’t even like us because we’re in a clinic, even if they didn’t have their needles with us. Deb is right about parental barriers to immunisation. I think you’re being a bit sensitive.

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            • Kris2040

              Classic AV tactic, Faybian. State your “reasons” then cry when someone disagrees and explains why they disagree and back themselves up.

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            • MotherR

              No, not being sensitive, just factual:

              We were talking specifically about a four-month old. When you are four months old, there is nothing to remember about having shots. When you are older than this, then it is quite possible that you might remember your last shot or previous visits to a clinic.

              But, you are still missing the point, which is either due to just being unable to read what I originally said or you just want to be contentious.

              I have repeated here more than once that the effect I am speaking of was nothing to do with whether my baby or any other baby likes having a needle, or likes being taken to the clinic or whether the needle hurts.

              The point is about the effect that the actual active ingredients of the vaccination had on him and the possible more severe effects that they can and probably do have on some other unluckier children.

              You may not like it, but it does happen and to deny parents’ observations of their own children and crush them with the medical/scientific model is inexcusable.

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      • Lisa J

        Mother R

        Maybe this is your first baby. Some children’s immune systems will react more strongly than normal and handouts I received from my child’s doctor after immunization (we went to the pediatrician) said that they could run a fever, develop sick symptoms and sleep quite a bit after the immunization. These were all considered “normal” reactions. They have been exposed to a less frightening version of something to develop an immunity to it, and an immune response can include running a fever and feeling unwell. I sincerely believe that is what other posters are trying to assure you – that these reactions are NOT outside of normal expectations of a vaccine.

        From a strictly “less traumatic” view I would prefer to vaccinate a baby on the schedule and have them have fewer visits to a doctor’s office where strange people in strange clothing in brightly lit offices do things that make them uncomfortable or briefly hurt them for reasons that they don’t understand.

        Do you honestly intend to assert your four-month-old child is uncapable of remembering anything from day to day? Just because they can neither express or necessarily have concrete memory experiences before they are verbal does not mean they have no memory whatsoever. Without memory of experiences they like and don’t like their little brains wouldn’t be learning anything and all of those amazing developmental milestones witnessed would never happen. Your baby remembers your voice, your face, your touch, etc., Further, an over-stimulated baby will cry, fight sleep and then usually sleep longer from fighting it and being over-tired.

        I think that you are missing their point. Your post insinuates that even one immunization possibly injured your child and you’re just not sure yet, and suggests that everyone should consider giving the doses one at a time over as long a period as possible with careful evaluation because “we just can’t know.”

        After evaluating the number of truly adverse events (and the really bad ones ARE reported), it is absolutely certain that there ARE occasional children who WILL react badly to a vaccine. However, the benefits far outweigh the risks when looked at the number of children who experience those reactions vs. the total number of children vaccinated.

        Outbreaks of measles, mumps and whooping cough in civilized countries where such things were thought mostly eradicated just a few decades ago should be ample evidence that even a handful of people insisting on not immunizing their children are putting a great number in harm’s way. That is the real position and motivation of pro-vaccine arguments – that people who push the “anti-vaccine/pro safe-vaccine” arguments are missing the very real dangers that their decisions pose to their own children and to other people who are unable to be vaccinated for valid reasons.

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  9. Diana

    Re-Gardasil: My real concern is for the damage done by Gardasil (labeled for cervical cancer ) – we have two girl friends damaged by the vaccine. One ended in intensive care.
    The parents were told, “I don’t know why your previously healthy child is now experiencing seizures. All I can tell you is that Gardasil® is not the cause.” Well, prove to us all what is?
    I looked this up:
    According to VAERS (U.S. Vaccine Adverse Events Report), there have now been 23388 reports of injury and at least 103 deaths in connection with an HPV vaccine. That is a huge number of “coincidences”, don’t you think?
    According to the Dept of Health the age-standardised mortality rate from cervical cancer has more than halved since the start of the screening program, from 3.9 deaths per 100,000 women in 1991 to 1.9 deaths per 100,000 women in 2007. And there is no evidence that the vaccine works so as to improve this successful screening program. 23,388 major injury reports and 103 deaths (USA) makes my spine shudder.

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    • Deb

      Actually there is a lot of evidence it works. This is an easy to understand graphic, from the appropriately titled ‘Information is Beautiful.’ http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/2011/is-the-hpv-vaccine-safe-v-2-0/

      As you can see, there have been multiple studies done. One is included here and basically – people don’t like getting needles. Over 40,000 women were involved and the placebo arm and the treatment arm were indistinguishable.

      And there have been no deaths associated with gardasil. VAERS is an open reporting system. There are car accidents included in the reported deaths after Gardasil, and for many years there was a report that vaccines turned someone into the Incredible Hulk.

      After reactions are reported, if there is enough identifying information they are studied. None of the deaths reported after Gardasil have been linked to it. When 35,000,000 doses are given, someone is going to die or develop a problem afterwards. It’s not caused by the Gardasil, it’s caused by timing and bad luck.

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    • kass

      has it occurred to you that they might be able to no more prove it was something else that caused the reaction than you can prove it WAS gardisil??

      People LOOKING for reasons to blame immunisations for bad reactions will find one, create one if they have to. Be reasonable!!

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    • Jane DJ

      Please cite the origin of these statistics you speak of, Diana.

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    • Nora

      I know someone who started having seizures after receiving the gardasil vaccine also.

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      • Deb

        The lifetime risk of anyone having a seizure is at least 9%, and your risk of developing epilepsy is around 3%. http://www.dana.org/news/brainhealth/detail.aspx?id=9816

        In other words – you almost certainly know about 5 people with epilepsy. It would be strange if you DIDN”T know someone who had had a seizure, and seeing we give Gardasil to young teens that leaves a lot of time afterwards to develop seizures. There is no reason to think it could have anything to do with Gardasil.

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        • Nora

          Except her doctors ruled everything else out. She had extensive medical testing conducted for months trying to figure out what was happening to her and she was in her mid 20s when she received Gardasil not a teenager. I’m all for Vaccinations however I have concerns about Gardasil.

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          • KateA

            My specialty is neurology and I can assure you that most patients with seizures have no identifiable cause – ie normal imaging, CSF analysis and exclusion of clinically distinct epileptic syndromes. I would go so far to say that the vaccination almost certainly did not cause the seizure. When vaccinations cause seizures it is almost always in the context of an encephalitis (usually ADEM) and patients have more generalized neurological dysfunction and abnormal tests.
            Another thing to remember is that not every collapse with shaking is a seizure; a faint with myoclonus jerks can look like a seizure but it is not. It’s often a very difficult diagnosis to make, even for a specialist.

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            • Nora

              Thanks for the feeback Kate A I do try and keep an open mind however it wasn’t just one seizure it was several occcuring randomly for months after she was given the vaccine. She appears to be back to full health now but I remain skeptical about Gardasil.

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          • Kris2040

            My Mum started randomly having fitting type faints too, but no Gardasil in sight. Scans show nothing notable. It just happens.

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    • Nora

      Interesting to note the brother of a girl who started having seizures directly after receiving Gardasil is making a documentary about the devasting effects it appears to have on some people.
      http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1995527181/one-more-girl-documentary

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      • KateA

        And here is the problem. I am not an immunologist but i do know neurology. Like i said, most epileptics have no underlying ’cause’ found. Some people who have recurrent ‘seizures’ are not having seizures – they are having dissociative episodes or faints – but the lay public still call it all epilepsy.
        When you vaccinate all girls – up to 5% or so of them will go on to have one or more seizures. Some of these will have seizures in close proximity to the vaccine. That is how chance works. It does not imply a relationship.
        But still, you would rather listen to the nonmedically educated family member of a girl who developed some kind of disorder. Even the description for the movie is full of nonsensical, bad science. Will you go to him also for diagnosis and treatment if you develop a neurological disorder?

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        • Nora

          See it’s not just one family making these claims it’s several,that’s what’s concerning. Of course I wouldn’t see a film maker in relation to any neurological disorder and at no point did I suggest that I would.

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          • Deb

            Nora – more than 35,000,000 doses of Gardasil have been given in the US alone. That’s over 11 million women if all of them got 3 doses.

            Out of those 11 million women if about 9% have a seizure in their lives, that’s 550 000 women. Now let’s say it is in the year after they get the Gardasil – because the three doses are fairly spaced out. Seeing I don’t know what the distribution of seizure ages are I’ll just divide by 80 as an average number of years lived.

            That gives you 6875. By my napkin maths, we would EXPECT about 7,000 women in the US to have seizures around the time they are getting Gardasil, without having anything at all to do with the vaccine.

            This is the problem with large numbers and probability – humans just aren’t equipped to deal with them on a gut level. This is why we have complicated statistical tests – because we are fooled far too easily by the way our brains work.

            Unless there’s significantly more than 7000 women involved in this project, and there aren’t, there is nothing to worry about from Gardasil. They just had the bad luck of being hit by coincidence.

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          • MotherR

            Poor Nora.

            I hope I never end up a patient of that sarcastic neurologist above!

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            • Deb

              I hope both you and Nora never end up the patient of any neurologist.

              But Nora has entered this conversation multiple times and is basing it on a story of someone she knows and a movie being made by a family member.

              Even 20 seconds on Google would have told her that many seizures have no known cause. It would even have told her that that is particularly common in children and young adults. The hardest bit is spelling ‘seizures’ correctly. So either she’s not capable of using Google or she has a reason to keep bringing this up, with no evidence, and without acknowledging the explanations she’s been given.

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            • KateA

              Hi MotherR,
              I was told by a wise teacher that ‘sarcasm is the wit of fools’, which is why I avoided using it in the above posts. I will now indulge myself however, and thank you for your kind, personal comments based on my desire to promote rational science.

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            • MotherR

              Okay, let’s say you weren’t being sarcastic and I’ll go with my original thought. You were just being bitchy: “But still, you would rather listen to the nonmedically educated family member of a girl who developed some kind of disorder. Even the description for the movie is full of nonsensical, bad science. Will you go to him also for diagnosis and treatment if you develop a neurological disorder?” Still smells like sarcasm…

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            • Nora

              Oh Deb,
              My only point above is that I know someone who began having seizures (as diagnosed by a doctor not by me) regularly from the time Gardasil was administered to them. Her doctor, not me, concluded it was a bad reaction to Gardasil. This is the only case I have discussed and I’m not sure how I’m supposed to provide evidence of this.
              Throw statistical data at me all you like it does not change this one case I am referring too.
              Also I’m not sure how googling “seizures” would change the reality of the situation I’m discussing but thanks for the suggestion.

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            • Deb

              Actually Nora this post is about the movie, which is what I was referring to with the maths I did. Not directed at you personally, just at the very human foible that we are all bad at probability.

              Your other post was about a girl having unexplained seizures, so we’ve been trying to point out how common they are and how many of them are unexplained. This is the first time you’ve mentioned that her doctor thought it was from Gardasil so of course we didn’t take that into account.

              You’ve brought it up twice so it obviously bothers you. But the evidence has not shown any reason to think that Gardasil causes seizures. That’s about as reassuring as the science can get.

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            • Kris2040

              MotherR, you’re getting into classic AV behaviour and tactics with your comments about being patronised and others being sarcastic. Disagreeing, using examples and countering points does not equal sarcasm or patronising.

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            • Andy

              “Okay, let’s say you weren’t being sarcastic and I’ll go with my original thought. You were just being bitchy: ”

              Ooh, now we get irony!

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            • MotherR

              Kris
              “Disagreeing, using examples and countering points does not equal sarcasm or patronising.”
              - Agree, but sarcasm or patronising does equal sarcasm or patronising.
              - Example: “But still, you would rather listen to the nonmedically educated family member of a girl who developed some kind of disorder. Even the description for the movie is full of nonsensical, bad science. Will you go to him also for diagnosis and treatment if you develop a neurological disorder?”
              - Still smells like sarcasm…

              Andy
              ” ‘Okay, let’s say you weren’t being sarcastic and I’ll go with my original thought. You were just being bitchy.’

              Ooh, now we get irony!”
              - Nope, no irony here, still just bitchy.

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  10. KateA

    Thankyou Rachael for this excellent article. I just wanted to make one further point about vaccination.
    There are many rare and devastating diseases which present early in life, often in the first 2 years – these include inborn errors of metabolism, the leukodystrophies and mitochondrial disorders. These conditions are often inherited in an autosomal recessive pattern, so neither parent is affected, but both carry a faulty gene. Alternatively, they are inherited from the mother, but she does not carry the mutation in enough cells to get symptoms.
    So they come ‘out of the blue’, and because children are getting immunised 4 or 5 times in the first few years of life it is not difficult to see a temporal relationship between the onset of the condition and the vaccination. They may present abruptly with a seizure, or a stroke like episode and often progress relentlessly. When such a horrible situation encompasses your child, it is human nature to look for an answer (beyond genetics) and to blame someone or something. This is why we need large-scale observation to refute these relationships. Anecdotes are more emotional, more powerful – but they must be resisted when forming a scientific opinion, as they are confounded by other variables and may often simply represent chance or coincidence.
    Autism is similar – though it certainly has a genetic basis as per family prevalence studies – it also has a visible onset around the time of vaccination. It has taken many years and huge numbers of patients to disprove this association, simply because of the emotional pull of a devastated mother and disabled child.
    This tendency to clutch to memorable events and attribute repercussions to them is present all through medicine. Patients remember having the flu, or falling over, or taking a different medicine – and when something goes wrong around the same time, they link the two together. This is obviously ‘bad science’, but is probably a normal by-product of the analytical human mind.
    So yes, the stories of disabled children are heartwrenching, but they are usually accidents of genetics, not a side-effect of vaccination. We need large studies to draw conclusions, and thankfully the rise of evidence based medicine has recognised this.

    The second point is that it is worthwhile revisiting the pain of diseases now almost never seen because of vaccination. Diphtheria caused a pseudomembrane over laryngeal tissues, gross oedema in the throat (leading to suffocation) and paralysis. Tetanus causes repetitive firing of muscles ‘tetany’ which causes excruciating spasms of skeletal muscle, contorting the body/face into unnatural positions. It was fatal in about 50%. Polio causes paralysis of limbs and breathing muscles. Measles may be mild but is complicated by severe viral pneuomias and encephalitis. In particular, it causes a horrible encephalitis which comes on years later and rapidly kills the patient (subacute sclerosing panencephalitis).
    So these are not mild or trivial conditions – they are absolutely wretched and should not be forgotten because they are not seen often in the West.

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    • Faybian

      Well said. Remember that we can never eradicate tetanus either, as it is an anaerobic germ that lives in soil etc.

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  11. Mandy

    Well, blow me down with a feather! I just got to the end of Chapter 7 of the hilarious Ben Elton’s Blind Faith…has anyone read it? It’s about a post apocalyptic world full of crazy over sexed religious evangelists where only 50% of children make it to their fifth birthday, Here’s a small excerpt from the beginning of Chapter 8:

    ‘Trafford had heard of them, of course. A sinister secret sect, who practised dark arts that could be traced back to the Age of Lies. An unholy brotherhood who believed in brutalizing children in the name of ancient and discredited ‘science’.

    “You stick poisoned spikes into kiddies?” Trafford whispered in horror.’

    I couldn’t believe it! I had no idea this book was about the likes of Meryl Dorey’s perfect world!

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    • CJ Shipley

      Ha! I must read this book…. It may provide me with the insight I need into Meryl’s motivations!

      XD

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  12. Hal

    Hm

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  13. Anja

    Hi Rachael, this is a serious question I’m not trying to make a statement or cause conflict. My daughter had her Hep B at birth and 2 month immunisations at 6 weeks. When she was 12 weeks old she had a seizure (I’m not saying this is related to immunisation I don’t believe it is). After numerous tests we don’t have any answers as to why and she appears to be developing normally. She’s due for her 4 month immunisations but I’m terrified it will cause another seizure. What is your advice?
    Thanks

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    • KateA

      Hi Anja,
      About 5% of children will have a seizure. They are often associated with fevers (fever lowers the body’s seizure threshold). Most children who have a single seizure do not have any identifiable cause – and it is reassuring that your daughter had normal investigations. About 1% of children will go on to have epilepsy, but given your daughter is developing normally and has only had a single seizure, it is reasonable to be optimistic. It is unlikely that her 4 month immunisations will cause another seizure, but if she gets a mild fever with them, it might make it more likely. I would recommend some Paracetamol before and over the next 24 hours to try and avoid a significant fever.
      Hope this helps – and please discuss with your GP, as internet advice is not as good!

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  14. Lauren

    Just wondering if there are official statistics of how many children are unimmunised now in Australia? After having a baby this year I’m surprised at how many people don’t. I wouldn’t be surprised if the figure was as high as about 10%-15% of children under 5 years.
    I chose to immunise my daughter, but do respect those that don’t. It’s a very tough decision and at the end of the day you do what you think is best for your child. I do believe that it does cause serious reactions in a small minority of children, and obviously the majority of children are fine, but a serious reaction can happen to anyone and it is a risk we choose to take.

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    • Andy

      I sort of “get it” and yet I don’t. I suspect that, were it not for a very vocal anti-vax lobby, the doubt would rarely arise. After all, we don’t doubt the benefits of feeding our kids even though lots of kids die as a result of choking or allergies. We don’t doubt the benefits of bathing them, although some will drown or suffer allergic reactions to soaps. We pop the kids in the safety seat to go to the shops despite the fact some won’t survive the journey – and sometimes as a result of the restraint. We carry them, though dropping a baby is dangerous and potentially fatal. The list goes on.

      I really don’t get it. I understand the hesitation, as doubt has been propagated by a media that feeds on sensationalism and conflict. But I don’t see how a parent can look at the potential risks either way and conclude that not vaccinating is the better option (unless, of course, they have prior knowledge of specific susceptibilities) – and that all the doctors are liars.

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      • Lauren

        I didn’t want to start a debate I just wondered about statistics out of interest. I have made my decision to immunise my child and just stated that I do understand why some people choose not to, I personally know someone who had a serious reaction to a vaccine. There are some very strong opinions voiced here but everyone is entitled to have their own opinions and make their own decisions, regardless of whether others approve of them or not.
        Your arguments aren’t practical. I get your point that nothing is without risk but you can’t compare basic daily care for your child with deciding whether to vaccinate your children, it’s a totally different thing.

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        • Kris2040

          But it IS the same thing, Lauren. It’s caring for your kid and for the community, and giving both your kid and the community the best chance at fighting off some pretty horrendous diseases.
          The AV movement’s arguments are just as silly, yet somehow get seen as “valid concerns” – because they demand 100% safety and proof of it with regard to vaccines, knowing that this isn’t possible. The examples Andy has given are quite right and consistent with the scare mongering and “logic” of the AV movement.

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          • Mandy

            That’s exactly what I was thinking as I read Laura’s response…it is exactly the same thing. I don’t get how it’s a ‘tough’ decision at all…just like it’s not a ‘tough’ decision to feed our kids, take them in the car…etc..everything Andy said..

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          • Lauren

            Yes Kris I get the point that Andy is trying to make. But before I decided to vaccinate my child I researched the benefits and risks thoroughly. I didn’t research the benefits and risks of feeding her before deciding I would. I highly doubt that Andy’s argument would convince anti-vax people to change their minds.
            I don’t see why I’m being criticised, I choose to vaccinate but just stated I understand those who choose not to. I’m entitled to that opinion and obviously it’s an issue people feel very strongly about.
            All I want to know is the statistics of how many children aren’t immunised not be lectured or involved in an argument about me respecting people’s beliefs who choose not to immunise.

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            • Andy

              Sorry Lauren, rest assured I wasn’t criticising you. Like I said, I sort of get it – there’s a big scare campaign out there about vaccination so people tend to look into it.

              I don’t even blame parents who choose not to vaccinate due to the scare campaign. I don’t expect them to read thousands of scientific papers on immunology research (I certainly haven’t) and I don’t expect most to have even the rudimentary knowledge of chemistry, biology or statistics that would make such research remotely worthwhile. Similarly, I don’t expect them to read up on the risks of sandwiches, travelling in cars or bathing. I expect our authorities to make public any knowledge that needs to be “common” and leave the rest to the experts.

              If anyone, I blame the lobbyists who refuse to accept basic facts and statistics and I do struggle with people who proclaim they’ve “researched the issue”, usually over a matter of hours or days, and somehow determined that over 200 years of immunology research and development is wrong. I suspect, based on their comments, the vast majority of these people have little knowledge of chemistry or biology yet somehow consider themselves instant toxicologists. That, I don’t get.

              I also blame worthless government departments that allow the misinformation campaign to continue without official rebuttal.

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            • Kris2040

              No-one’s criticised you, though, Lauren. Andy then I explained our points of view. Neither of us make any secret of our contempt for the AV movement. Note that I referred to their fallacies and arguments, not yours. :)

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            • Mandy

              Lauren, I wish sometimes I kept my mouth shut…or rather typing fingers stilled!

              I came back here because I thought my response was a bit harsh and a bit empty. Sorry if it came across as if I was having a go. I realised after I’d logged off that I would have written pretty much the same as you seven years ago when I was deliberating with my first son. In the end it wasn’t a tough decision for me as the little bit I had read from the anti vaccination position just didn’t ring true for me. And that’s the thing that gets me riled – that their misleading information is making (what I believe) a logical and easy decision a tough one for some people.

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            • Andy

              It’s frustrating. I know I sometimes have second thoughts about how I’ve responded to some people. Then I read something so gob-smackingly stupid I just dive right back in :)

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      • Ally

        Andy I didn’t bother to comment on your food analogy before as I thought it was just too silly,but I see you are using it again so I’ll bite.
        If a child doesn’t eat, there is a 100% chance that they will die, that’s a known fact. If a child isn’t vaccinated, there are many variables to determine as to whether the child a) catches a disease and then b) develops severe complications or dies. Similarly, if a child is vaccinated, there are many variables to determine whether they develop immunity or, in some cases, have an adverse reaction. You can throw epidemiological studies out as evidence that the chances of reactions are small, but these are based on whole groups, not based on a person’s individual genetic makeup, family history etc. My risk of developing a reaction is different to yours, which is different to to Joe Bloggs. Now, for most people, they will weigh up their personal risks and decide that the risk of the disease is higher than the risk of the vaccine – fair enough. But that doesn’t make another families choice to not vaccinate, based on their family history and genetics, as a bad choice. Just as a family who has a history of peanut allergies would not feed their baby peanuts (to use your food analogy). It would be nice if we could have some kind of test to identify a gene and be told specific risk factors for individuals, but the science isn’t there yet.

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        • kass

          With respect, testing for genetics is prohibitively expensive and by the time you got a definitive answer, your child would be in high school – IF you got a definitive answer. Genetic testing would solve MANY health related issues, would tell most people what they are genetically predisposed to (including cancer) and how to solve it. Testing just is not that advanced yet and testing EVERY child before immunisation would send this and most countries bankrupt.

          Too many people want definitives. They want everything NOW. How about trusting in what works for most, for long periods of time? As I said in my post below – yes there are grey areas and yes there will be some kids who dont react well to vaccines, but this inate NEED to know everything is simply about pure control and nothing else. You cannot control everything and every time you put your child in a car you risk their lives – a far HIGHER risk which can no more be controlled than the implications of vaccinations. Yet you do it, don’t you?

          Honestly, what are people so afraid of?

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        • Andy

          Ally,

          My examples of risk probably seem as seem silly to you as anti-vax arguments about risk seem to me. My point, simply, is that everything – everything – we do in life carries risk. Sometimes big risks, sometimes small, sometimes tiny. Being alive is risky.

          You say it’s a fact that kids die if they don’t eat. But would you feed one a ham sandwich without first “doing the research”? What about ice cream, cake, lettuce, oranges, pasta, red meat, white meat, fish…? Would you “research” each and every possible thing your child might do or do you accept that, in the main, the things most families take for granted are commonplace because the risks are relatively minor?

          And saying the risk is minor is not the same as saying any adverse event is therefore minor. I’m sure febrile convulsions are no fun at all. Choking to death on a sandwich isn’t much fun either – but I suspect no parent lies awake at night agonising over the decision to give their kids ham and cheese on toast on a very regular basis.

          Your risk of dying from eating a sandwich is also unknown until any sort of allergy is known. And even that doesn’t necessarily remove all risk of choking on it. You simply can’t know everything you need to know to eradicate all risk.

          But, to borrow someone else’s analogy, assuming that walking down the middle of the road is safer because you might trip up on the footpath is a very poor application of statistical risk analysis.

          Around 90-95% of Aussie kids are vaccinated and it should seem pretty clear that the vast majority of them are neither autistic nor dead – just like most of them have not choked to death on a sandwich. But somehow, this obvious statistic escapes the fear mongers that make up the anti-vax lobby.

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    • sianmorton

      The risk of serious adverse reactions to vaccinations with permanent ill-effects is miniscule. I think it would be better described as a level of risk we accept rather than a risk we take.

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  15. alikelystory

    Not wanting to enter into debate, everyone is entitled I believe, to make a choice. But I just wanted to raise my hand and say my husband and I are educated professionals who researched both sides of the topic thoroughly (I would estimate about 40 hours of reading, discussion etc) and in the end we decided to not vaccinate our two children. It was not a choice we made lightly – one of the hardest so far in parenting – but at the end of the day I know we made the choice we truly believe (for numerous reasons) is in the best interests of our beloved children.

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    • Amanda

      I really don’t mean to be rude or disparaging as I can clearly see that you are simply a mother trying to do what’s best for her child, yet I am quite amazed that you can read this factual, intelligent article and go on to explain that after so much research THAT was your conclusion.

      Honestly, I know you just want what’s best for your child so please please please don’t shut the door now and call this a matter of choice. I would hate for you to regret this decision later if your child contracts one of these preventable illnesses.

      If you truly care, keep researching. Check the credentials of the authors of each paper you read, check that each finding is statistically significant and not just hearsay or anecdotes. This article, for instance, is clearly factually based and written by a respected medical researcher.

      May I ask what it was that made you decide not to vaccinate in the end?

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    • Deb

      With all due respect, immunology is a science degree, takes about 4 years of study. Then a PhD is another 3 years at least. Then you get to go work full time as a post-doc or research assistant.

      Medicine can be 6 years for a MB,BS or you can do it in 4 years as a post-grad course after you have another degree, usually science. Then you can be an intern and go through more years of on the job training.

      These are the people who have done the research that results in the development and testing of vaccines and eventually, after years, their licencing. These are the people who have put together the childhood vaccination schedule.

      I’m glad you’re happy with your decision that they are all wrong. But please don’t say that 40 hours of reading and discussion is researching both sides thoroughly.

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      • Faybian

        Well, I must be a sheeple, cos I spent nowhere near that time researching immunization and I have 6 years uni. We hand out a risks (of both disease and immunisation) form, which is brutally honest and to the point and also lists the side effects. Your local GP should have something similar if you ask, or you can go to the NHMRC website to find out risks. I tend to think, that like circumcision, abortion, gay marriage etc you kinda lean one way or the other anyway.

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        • Deb

          I actually agree that research isn’t needed. Sure some basics, but to claim you’ve ‘thoroughly researched’ is ridiculous.

          I don’t ‘thoroughly research’ before getting on a plane, or hiring a lawyer, or an accountant, or even a mechanic. I do my best to check around that THEY know what they’re talking about, but I know there’s no way I’ll develop their expertise without their study and experience. So why would I do a quick and dirty job and pretend I’m better than them?

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    • Alex

      I can’t honestly believe that, even if you are an “educated professional”, I am betting that you predominately relied on your gut feeling. The whole 40 hours research thing is a bit pointless, topics of this importance shouldn’t be left to a few hours of casual research and then forgotten. An educated person should know about this issue and have followed it loosely at least for many years instead of relying on a mere cursory glance. Whats more an educated person should have some idea how the antivaccine movement mirrors the AIDS denialist movement and shares many similarititys with the other anti-science movements.

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    • Andy

      Wow! 40 hours to conclude that the whole immunology profession is wrong. Astonishing work!

      I don’t mean to be rude either but, it’s difficult not to be when I’m gobsmacked.

      What’s next? Quantum Physics, aeronautics, civil engineering, paint manufacturing, vehicle design – specialising in braking systems, astrophysics, nuclear physics, solar energy and its application to communication satellites, evolutionary biology, oncology, obstetrics, hydrography…???

      Between you both, you could master a whole new discipline every week and never have to accept the word of anyone else ever again. Meanwhile the rest of us often struggle to keep abreast of changes within our own fields of expertise.

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    • Kris2040

      What are you and your husband educated professionals in? Would you be incredulous if I dismissed your profession in favour of a vibe?

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    • David

      40 hours of research is thorough? I am a scientist and that is 1 week for me. When I changed fields I spent about three months full time work reading to update and familiarise myself with the area. In a book entitled “Genius explanied” they put forward the idea that it takes about 3000 hours of practice to become a good level amateur musician, please compare that with your 40 hours. If you are a professional how long do you think it would take someone to be familar with your field? 40 hours? I have been waiting for years for someone to say that they have thoroughly research astrophysics and are now prepared to build their own rocket, after 40 hours research.

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  16. kass

    This is a difficult post for me to respond to because I get very fired up about the issue and I am not even a mother.

    I have cancer. I have had it four times now in 21 years and next week I am having surgery for my stomach and liver – cancer #4. This disease is going to kill me. Sooner rather than later.

    My cancers come from a genetic defect that was undetectable and unavoidable (well unless my parents had not hooked up and created me…). I am not an expert AT ALL but I believe children are born with the likelihood of autism and there is nothing that can be done to prevent it at this stage.

    I have had to ask my friends both in person and on FB to please NOT visit me if they or their children are not vaccinated. Why? Because my immune system is low and I cannot afford to catch so much as a cold before surgery. As I start treatment, I will be at greater risk of catching any disease, major or minor, that people have.

    I wonder if, when anti-vax parents make that choice, they consider the impact on the people their children come in contact with? It’s one thing to make a decision for your child but how does it impact the people around them?

    I also wonder, if there was a vaccine that lowered their childs potential to develop cancer significantly (say by 80% +), would that be OK or would that just be a “natural” part of life? What about if their child did develop cancer (as I did) – is chemotherapy OK? Because that’s poison (effectively), designed to kill the cancer but it often kills the person too. How does THAT work?

    When does the right to make a decision for your child outweigh your responsibility for your child and those around it?

    I’m trying hard not to be inflammatory but I remember being rushed to hospital once because a child I was close to had the measles or something because their parent had not immunised and it made their child sick with measles but hospitalised ME because of the risk.

    I think vaccines are a grey area – some kids are allergic and just dont respond well to them. The same as not every chemo works on all patients with the same cancers. Everyone’s physiology is different. But I think in the main and the majority, vaccines are essential and we have a responsibility to each other as a community to not only protect ourselves but look after each other.

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    • ilijasmilisic

      Oh my goodness, Kass, that’s just truly awful what you’ve gone through and are still going through. I really hope that there are some breakthroughs in the scientific research of cancer cures that will improve your prognosis.

      And you are 100% right about vaccinations having an impact on you as a cancer patient. One’s immunity affects everyone they come into contact with.

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    • rainbow

      thanks for sharing your story.

      i truly wish you the best with your surgery.

      i am 100% pro-vaccination but you just made me 200% pro.

      all the best
      xx

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    • JJ

      Kass, thank you for sharing your story. I truly hope your operation goes well, and you feel better soon.

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    • kass

      Thanks for your kind responses and good wishes.

      I dont tell my story to illicit sympathy, simply to offer a different perspective than many parents (including some of my friends) just dont think about. So much “ME” thinking and not a wider perspective.

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    • trixie melodian

      Wow Kass, I won’t go with my gut here and tell you that you are brave, or heroic or anything like that, because i imagine it drives you mad! But thanks for sharing your story and making it personal for all the people out there who aren’t swayed by the “responsibility to the wider community” argument.

      You say, “I also wonder, if there was a vaccine that lowered their childs potential to develop cancer significantly (say by 80% +), would that be OK or would that just be a “natural” part of life?”
      Well the Gardasil vaccine practically eliminates the risk of cervical cancer, and I’m sorry to say that there are plenty of parents out there who don’t think vaccinating their daughter is worth the negligible risk. I don’t have a story like yours, but I was diagnosed with pre-cancerous cells on my cervix in my early 20s and was fortunate enough to be treated successfully. My daughter (and son!) will be getting the Gardasil vax as part of the regular schedule without a question.

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      • kass hall

        Thanks Trixie. Unfortunately I didn’t have Gardasil because I was (a) 4 months too old to get it from the government and $600 was more than I could afford and (b) sadly, as my cancer is genetically orientated, it would probably have little or no preventative effect. However, I am very much the minority in that department and if I could have had it, I would have anyway.

        When I hae a part liver and full gastrectomy this Wednesday, I’ll be sure to blame my parents for not only creating me but vaccinating me too!!! LOL

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    • ibk

      My son was hospitalised due to an adverse reaction to a vaccine. So, yes, I am the ahole who stop vaxing all my kids and my 3rd has had none. What would you do after you watched your child with his eyes rolled in the back of his head?!
      Anyway, your no unvinnated visitors policy is just silly – my third , at almost 3.5, has never been sick and is the heathiest kid I know, much haelthier than most vaxed kids…plus, vaxed kids are not 100% immune to the diseases they are vaxed against, you know that , right?

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      • kass hall

        Hi “ibk” -

        As has been acknowledged previously, I think it is different to choose not to vaccinate because you think it’s poisonous or dangerous or another misguided reason, and to not vaccinate because your child is one of the few who have allergic reactions to vaccines. Those are two very different situations and choices. So we’ll get that cleared up here and now.

        What would I do if I watched my child with his eyes rolled back? I dont know, but I’ll ask my Mum how she felt when I was hospitalised after being on chemotherapy and being exposed to chicken pox and how ill that made me. I’d been immunised but the chemo suppressed my immune system (so it could kill the cancer cells) and I got sick. I’ll ask her how she felt about that or the five times she sat by my bed to say goodbye to me when I wasn’t meant to live through the night. I’m pretty sure she felt like CRAP.

        My unvaccinated visitors policy is not silly. YOUR child might not have been sick, but your child might also be carrying an infection or disease that has not shown up in him/her but may be contagious. YOU might not know it’s even there. THAT can affect me. THAT has the potential to KILL me. You might only be concerned about your own child but I take a more community orientated approach than that and like to protect myself AND those around me, as best as I can.

        And of course I know that there is not 100% immunity after vaccinations, I’m painfully aware of how NOT 100% they are. But I’ll take 98% against 0% every single day of the week.

        And forgive me if I don’t take too much heed from someone with opinions so strong they dont have the courage to actually put their name to them.

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        • donnamurphy

          Kass, I’ve seen 2 cases of lukemia in my extended family, blood cancer in a close friends nephew and my grandfather suffer with stomach cancer. That was hard enough so I couldn’t imagine what your mother went through watching her own daughter be so sick. I 100% understand and support your no visitors policy, your life is way more valuable than hurting somebody’s feelings. I’m sure if your mother could have flown you to the moon to keep you safe she would have.
          Any mother would.
          Good luck with your operation, I and I’m sure many other readers here will be thinking of you.

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          • kass hall

            Thanks Donna.

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      • Marie

        People are ridiculous thinking that vaccines are a force field of some sort lmao you can still “have” the illness you just are not symptomatic.
        It seems the pro pushers either live in la la land where vaccines put you in a bubble or that just chose not to understand how vaccines work. My 2nd son had a bad life long negative reaction to Dtap and my 3rd child is not vaccinated at all. None of my family will ever be injected with them again. The year my husband was forced to get a flu shot was the year he was sick for 2wks with a flu. Since we’ve made the decision to not vaccinate any more my family is the healthiest I know. My boys had horrible allergies that just went away in the 4th year of them being vaccine free. Vaccines are doing more harm then anyone wants to know about or accept. All across the board from nuro issues to immuno issues from diabeties to lupus. I did what I was suppose to do I followed the rules and now my son is paying for it, he’s the acceptable risk. One of my children were effected I’m not willing to take a chance on any of the others. Yes they could get measle or whatever “preventable” illness but they could anyway with having the vaccines. I’d rather not have them injected with things that are not good. Tween 80, aluminum, antibiotics, formaldehyde and whatever else the pharma companies want. Some people act like parents just want to be difficult, that the choice of not going along with the herd was an easy one. Believe me it was not. We didn’t just wake up one day and say how can I piss people off using my children.

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  17. Jab

    I find the tone very attacking very early on. The flu vaccine contains mercury every year. While not in regular kids vaccine schedule, it is recommended for kids and pregnant women. Some vaccines don’t work. The chicken pox vaccine is rubbish. It is not serving it’s purpose. Vaccines work on ‘herd immunity ‘. Too many vaccinated kids are getting it, and it’s still spreading. Just had an outbreak at my kids school. My two vaccinated kids got and gave to unvaccinated baby.
    I also don’t understand why there is such a problem with informing people what they are giving their kids. Info too hard to come by.
    Debate on topic upsets me as both sides get nasty too quickly. I don’t regard myself as part of either side. And until you’ve walked in their shoes, don’t judge the parents of autistic kids who believe vaccines have played a part. Remember they were pro vaccines, they gave their kids needles. I believe parents know their kids best. Maybe we could all learn something from them, instead of yelling them down!!! Just some food for thought…….this topic always gets so many responses.

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    • Deb

      Jab, the flu vaccine in Australia does not contain mercury. Yes it is recommended for pregnant women because a) having flu while pregnant can have serious lifelong effects on the baby and b) it gives the baby some protection when they are born.

      Herd immunity is only one of the good things about vaccines, it comes about because for the majority there is very solid individual protection. Without that individual protection herd immunity wouldn’t exist, but it is a bonus that helps protect people who are unable to be vaccinated.

      I can understand being upset if your children have had chickenpox after being vaccinated. But that doesn’t make the vaccine useless. In our generation every child would have had chicken pox and faced the future possibility of shingles, now it is only a few. Upsetting when it is your own children, but the evidence shows how much chickenpox has decreased in the last ten years. That definitely hasn’t been due to hygiene or any of the other straws anti-vaxxers clutch at.

      And while I have every sympathy for the parents of children with autism, that doesn’t make them experts on vaccines or the causes of autism, any more than being in an accident makes someone an expert on seatbelts. There are very well known phenomena that make people mis-remember or unconsciously change the timing of events, when you add the stress and worry of an autism diagnosis and things like grieving to the equation, the memories of parents are far, far less reliable than the numerous different studies showing there is no link.

      Parents have been listened to – that is why millions of dollars and years have been poured into investigating vaccines and autism. The results are in.

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      • Lisa J

        I’m a bit confused at this comment. I’ve seen stories (yes, anecdotal, I guess) and know my niece was one of the kids who got shingles as a teenager after getting the chickenpox vaccine. I was told when I asked that it prevents chickenpox for a while but needs a booster every 12 years to maintain any kind of effectiveness and that you still can get shingles from it the same way you get shingles if you had chicken pox as a child.

        My niece was NOT far enough from the original vaccination to need a 12-year booster.

        My pediatrician recommended against the chicken pox vaccine. She said that the complications from chicken pox were rare and that the immunity once exposed to real chicken pox was better than that of the vaccine. I took her advice and held out but never found someone with active chicken pox to expose my son to and he never got chicken pox before he started school and in the US if your child is unvaccinated you CANNOT register them in school unless you lie and say you are one of two religions that choose not to vaccinate their children. Just for personal reasons doesn’t count, and the only reason the religious reasons get to is the whole first amendment thing.

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    • Jane DJ

      Pregnant women are at especially high risk for the development of complications of H1N1 influenza A. During pregnancy, healthy women have a 4- to 5-fold increased rate of serious illness and hospitalization with influenza.

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2760905/

      No mercury, no debate.

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    • Lisa66

      Jab, I just wanted to let you know that my son, when he was a very healthy toddler, contracted chicken pox. He was unimmunised because at the time the chicken pox vaccine was new and not on the regular schedule. I intended to vaccinate him but hadn’t gotten around to it.

      The disease almost took his life and left long lasting side effects. He did eventually recover but it took about three years and many hospital visits before he was fully well.

      I had my younger son immunised as soon as he was old enough. He got chicken pox too but the disease was very mild – a temperature and some spots. Who knows how bad it would have been if I hadn’t had him immunised?

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      • annamumofone

        The chicken pox vaccine came out when my daughter was older and too late for her as she had already had chicken pox and became very ill and hospitalised.
        My daughter then developed shingles at the grand old age of seven – and if you have ever experienced shingles you will know how painful and debilitating it can be.
        For the rest of her life she will always be at risk of another occurence of shingles – and while she has shingles she is spreading chicken pox to the unvaccinated.

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        • Lisa66

          That’s terrible, poor kid. I truly hope she doesn’t end up with shingles again.

          I was very grateful that the chickenpox vaccine was widely availble when my youngest son and my two nieces were born.

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        • Nico

          Oh God, your poor daughter getting shingles!

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  18. Kathy M

    Hi to all, its good to see some healthy and respectful debate on here..

    Diana posted some info below “Whooping Cough Epidemic Caused by Virulent New Pertussis Strain—And It’s the Result of Vaccine” Dr Rachael, you asked for a link, and I think I have found it:

    http://www.gaia-health.com/articles451/000485-pertussis-more-virulent.shtml

    The source looks a bit dubious, but Dr Rachael are you able to shed some light on the matter? I am very interested in why it seems many preschoolers who were immunised as babies are catching whooping cough. I believe in NSW they may have moved boosters for pertussis forward? What age should we have boosters? Every 10 years? More often?

    I called my local QLD Public Health Unit after my up to date vaccinated 3 yo caught Pertussis last year. I was enquiring about the vaccine’s effectiveness. The reponse was that it is considered 85% effective, and some children can still get it though fully vaccinated. They also said that they dont “recognise” different strains of Whooping Cough, in that its still the same diagnosis and treatment. I am just a bit concerned as a few other 3 year olds I know have caught it, if this is the new vulnerable group?

    Here is a news story which goes into the same issue:

    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/jan-june11/pledge_03-16.html

    I might add that you have written a fantastic article, and I am convincingly on the pro-vaccination camp. Its always good to learn new things though!

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    • Andy

      The gaia article is clearly anti-vax from the opening sentence, so I’ll consider it with appropriate scepticism but, interestingly, if the vaccine is causing pertussis to mutate, then the vaccine must be working (things don’t just mutate for the hell of it). So that kind of blows the “vaccines don’t work” argument out of the water.

      The cherry picked quote from the Netherlands study is telling. Here’s another piece of the study text that that gaia didn’t quote…

      “World-wide, whooping cough causes up to 300,000 deaths every year, mostly among unvaccinated infants”

      I can’t think of humane or ethical reason why they might ignore that statistic.

      And then, from the other report about sooper-TOXIC pertussis!!!, they cherry pick the bit that says new strains are more virulent but ignore the opening sentence in that report…

      “Before childhood vaccination was introduced in the 1940s, pertussis was a major cause of infant death world-wide. Widespread vaccination of children succeeded in reducing illness and death.”

      I’m no scientist but it seems to me that evolution/mutation is more likely to occur where there are more reservoirs for incubation and multiplication. The more “sanctuaries” there are, the greater the chance the bacterium will happen upon a novel change that allows it to bypass existing vaccines. In that regard, the supposedly horrific advice for “even more vaccinations”, makes absolute sense. If we drive the species to extinction, it can’t mutate – ever. Maybe we would already be there if reality-deniers weren’t in such widespread abundance.

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    • Ally

      I’ll post it again as it seems most people don’t know about it – http://www.unsw.edu.au/news/pad/articles/2010/feb/Whooping_cough.html The University of NSW did a study last year that found that the bacterium has evolved, coinciding with the change in the vaccine to the acellular version. Effectiveness of 85%? I’m not sure that that figure is accurate anymore, given that the vaccine only covers 3 of the 5 strains and taking into account that not everyone produces enough antibodies after receiving a vaccine to be considered immune. But, before you jump on me and demand evidence, I’m just speculating there. :) Yes, arguably some coverage is better than nothing, but it doesn’t support the argument that the rise in cases is due to the unvaccinated.

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      • Faybian

        Can you at least admit that the unvaccinated would be have some responsibility??

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        • Ally

          Well of course there are cases of unvaccinated people contracting whooping cough, but to quote the experts in the link that Dr Rachael provided – “in fact, most people who get this disease have had at least one dose of the pertussis vaccine”. I live in an area that has a very high vaccination rate amongst children, and yet we have had one of the largest outbreaks in years. Its more concerning to me that so many people are unaware that being vaccinated doesn’t mean that you can’t get it – so you have a lot of children with bad coughs being sent off to school and childcare and playgroup. I had a mum tell me a few weeks ago that her (fully vaccinated) son had been coughing for 6 weeks (during which she had him mixing with a multitude of children and young babies)! Yet, she hadn’t thought to get him tested for whooping cough and neither had her GP – she had no idea that you could still contract it if vaccinated. I doubt that this is an isolated case – perhaps he didn’t have whooping cough, but what if he did? He would have potentially infected multiple families. All I’m saying is that simply blaming a very small percentage of the population when clearly there are limits to the vaccine and a multitude of issues at hand here, is short-sighted and inaccurate. Energies would be better spent in promoting the boosters for adults and improving public awareness that you should go to a dr and get tested if you develop a cough, vaccinated or not.

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          • Andy

            The energies of governments would be well spent promoting the facts, including those you mention. I can’t disagree with that.

            But I’m not the government and I suspect few people in this discussion are. So the best we can do is to try and expose the nonsense spouted here by the anti-vax lobby until the government get off their collective backsides and act.

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          • Faybian

            I see mothers and babies every day at work and one of the first things we promote is that parents/caters etc of babies under 6 months are eligible for a dtp. The local maternity ward goes on about it too. It does get promoted. People my age are becoming mire aware, particularly because some of them are now becoming grandparents.

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  19. Mummabear2e

    People, watch the sixty minute story on whooping cough. I cried for days after watching that story. How could you give birth to a beautiful baby and not vaccinate? And parents/grandparents go and get the free booster. Watch this story, it will change your mind. That is all.

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    • anon

      It was absolutely devastating I agree and something no family should have to go through. But I believe the babies that died were all too young to be vaccinated, not that their parents chose not to vaccinate them. The majority of whooping cough deaths have been in babies too young to have the vaccine. So sad.

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      • annamumofone

        from memory, it was in an area with a very high rate of unvaccinated children which allowed the disease to spread.

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  20. sianmorton

    This is a great article addressing nine significant myths associated with vaccination that are perpetuated by ill-informed and ignorant people in our community. It is disappointing when people reject knowledge based on sound scientific principles and make poor health choices for themselves and their families. It is perfectly reasonable to question advice and to seek the opinions of others. But if you rely on poor advice you will make poor choices. As a nurse immuniser I will explain the risks and the benefits of vaccination to all those I encounter in my professional role, as do the vast majority if my colleagues. Organisations like the Australian Vaccination Network (AVN) claim they are NOT anti-vaccination and they are simply pro-choice but, to the best of my knowledge, they have NEVER ever offered any positive information on any vaccination. If you are concerned about vaccination and want balanced, evidence-based information about vaccination talk with your general practitioner, practice nurse or your local community health centre.

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  21. Diana

    Dept of Health and Aging
    National Notifiable Diseases Surveillance System
    Number of notifications of Pertussis, Australia
    1991 328
    1992 793
    1993 4412
    1994 5439
    1995 4353 (5th dose and 2nd pertussis booster)
    1996 10752
    And from here to 2008 fluctuating similar to above six years
    2008 14587
    2009 29035
    2010 34,000
    So, now pertussis is climbing rapidly but 90% of the population is immunised???

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    • Jane DJ

      Ten percent of the current population is just over 2 million people Diana. So, yes, that is a lot of exposed population. No wonder there is an epidemic. Get your boosters people!
      Herd immunity – scroll down the article below to get a great visual of how it works with 95%, 80% and 70% vaccination levels.
      http://science-at-home.org/how-herd-immunity-works/

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    • rachaeldunlop

      Hi Diana, 90% of the population is not immunised. Something like 10% of adults who are carriers and can pass the disease lost their immunity years ago. Which is why we need to get boosters – talk to your GP.

      There are certainly some worrying aspects about the current whooping cough epidemic. I’ve covered it in the comments somewhere under here.

      But there was a workshop in Sydney recently where strategies were addressed. See http://www.ncirs.edu.au/news/index.php#National

      I’ll repeat some of what I’ve said before here; from http://theconversation.edu.au/clear-and-present-danger-how-best-to-fight-the-latest-whooping-cough-outbreak-3134 which was written by Dr Julie Leask from the NCIRS and attended the conference.

      Australia has maintained high vaccination rates over recent years, with 94% of two-year-olds completely up to date with their vaccines (much lower for adults)

      The epidemic we’re in now (2009-2011) is part of a recurring pattern typical of whooping cough, with large outbreaks roughly every three to five years.

      The number of cases has only started to fall this year so the public is right to ask why there’s so much whooping cough around despite vaccinations.

      Vaccine refusal is one part of the cause, but more testing as well as better tests for the disease, the short period of protection, and waning adult immunity are all contributing to whooping cough’s resurgence. And vaccine refusal, as well as the tendency for refusers to geographically cluster, certainly promotes the spread of infections.

      So it’s more complicated than it seems. But the problems are being addressed.

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    • rachaeldunlop

      My comment is caught in moderation cause it has 2 x urls. It’s not true to say over 90% of the pop is vaxed – over 90% of two years olds are but as for adults we’re down in the 10% zone. We can be carriers and pass it on to kids.

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      • Jane DJ

        Take these stats from the Department of Health Vaccine Preventable Diseases and Vaccination Coverage in Australia, 2003 to 2005

        In the three year review period, infants aged less than one year accounted for 3% of all notifications but 50% of hospitalisations

        The 10–19 year age group accounted for 19% of pertussis notifications in 2003–2005 and 8% of all hospitalisations

        People aged 20–59 years (adults) accounted for 56% of notifications and 19% of hospitalisations.

        My point being – you or your school aged kids or teenagers may make it through whooping cough unscathed, but passing it on to an infant can land it in hospital.
        http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/cda-cdi31suppl.htm~cda-cdi31suppl-3.htm~cda-cdi31suppl-3i.htm

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  22. Zazazo

    My grandmother had polio as a child and as a result was disabled for the rest of her life. She could never dance with her husband or run after her children and was prematurely admitted into a nursing home. Thanks to vaccinations, today’s children will not suffer the same fate, and the only reason that the minority of children who aren’t immunised are safe is because the majority of us immunise.

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  23. Sue

    For an insightful satire on the anti-vax mentality, see
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xd_HAnosXdg

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    • rachaeldunlop

      Ha! Sue I wrote that ;) http://scepticsbook.com/2010/12/04/the-wakefield-in-the-room/

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    • Diana

      Whooping Cough Epidemic Caused by Virulent New Pertussis Strain—And It’s the Result of Vaccine
      The CDC and NIH keep pushing the pertussis vaccine, in spite of info that it’s causing the new whooping cough epidemic that is 10 times more deadly than the old whooping cough.
      by Heidi Stevenson 28 June 2011
      The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) and the National Institutes of Health (NIH) would prefer that you remain unaware of a couple of highly significant facts about the whooping cough resurgence. It is most likely caused by the pertussis vaccine and it’s ten times more deadly than the original variety.To top it all off, they are blaming the unvaccinated for the new more lethal strain of whooping cough, and they are pushing people ever harder to be vaccinated with the same vaccine that’s almost certainly responsible for it! More than one new strain of Bordetella pertussis has been found. However, the one that seems to consistently pop up in different countries is called ptxP3.

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      • rachaeldunlop

        Hi Diana, can you please provide a link to that story. Thanks.

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        • Jane DJ

          Heidi Stevenson is a homeopathist. ‘Nuff said.

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      • Andy

        Things mutate when pressures are applied. If you shoot all the white sheep, then black sheep will become the dominant colour. If you start killing one strain of pertussis, another might take over, if it can mutate soon enough.

        In other words, the mutation is actually proof that the vaccine works. In order to prevent mutation, we needed better vaccine coverage, so the CDC advice seems about right.

        And here’s the opening statement from the actual report about the pertussis mutation…

        “Before childhood vaccination was introduced in the 1940s, pertussis was a major cause of infant death world-wide. Widespread vaccination of children succeeded in reducing illness and death.”
        [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2815961/]

        Shocking eh? Imagine saving the lives of children. Pure evil.

        As for Heidi, what would a homeopath know about biochemistry? They think magic water is actual medicine.

        Oh, the report also said…

        “A relatively weak vaccine used in the Netherlands may have exacerbated the effect of the emergence of ptxP3 strains on disease impact (3). Our results underline the important role of Ptx in the transmission of B. pertussis and suggest that an effective way to control pertussis is the improvement of current vaccines to induce Ptx-neutralizing antibodies which persist longer. An important question is whether other childhood vaccines also select for pathogens that are more efficiently transmitted by primed hosts, resulting in increased virulence.”

        So they actually recommend vaccination as a way to deal with the problem. What a surprise. But I doubt Heidi paid much attention to that bit. The seemingly scary bits are much scarier when you omit the not-so-scary bits.

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  24. Alex 2

    Thanks Rachael for an interesting and informative read. Keep up the good work. xx

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  25. Rachel

    GREAT article!

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  26. monique

    All I can say about the comments is wow, people are really getting fired up. I completely support vaccination but to a certain extent understand why some don’t for things that won’t affect others, but by choosing to not vaccinate a child against something like whooping cough, you risk the lives of those too young to be vaccinated.

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    • Kris2040

      Um, the whole idea of vaccination is that they protect everyone against highly infectious communicable diseases. How can someone (to paraphrase your comment) “not vaccinate for things that won’t affect others”?

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      • monique

        I mean vaccines such as the HPV vaccine.

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        • Kris2040

          How does HPV, a communicable disease, not affect others when it is a communicable disease?

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          • lancepenna

            Oooooh SNAP!

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          • Blythe

            At least you can take precautions for HPV or spreading HPV though.

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            • Kris2040

              Well yes. You can get the jab!

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            • Anonymous

              Blythe if you know what effective precautions people can take against being raped, that would be brilliant and should be shared with everyone.

              Sexual activity is not always consensual, adding HPV and a future possibility of cancer to the mix just makes it shittier.

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            • Kris2040

              You can take precautions against all the diseases that vaccinations cover. It doesn’t mean that the diseases go away.

              Or are you referring to abstinence and leading a good, wholesome, christian lifestyle? Better cervical cancer than being called a slut, hey?

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  27. roses

    In one word; Smallpox!

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    • reasonablehank

      Precisely. But anti-vaccination misinformants tell us that Smallpox is still around and that it has simply been renamed. I’m serious. Their deceit and lack of basic biological understanding is breathtaking.

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  28. Cyndi

    Rachael I asked for the double blind study and the study where they only use saline or nothing for the placebo – current research would be nice seeing you are the researcher. I note that you do this for other people asking questions. Thought you be interested in the german study just completed on 7600 unvaccinated adults and children. The study is on going. http://www.vaccineinjury.info/vaccinations-in-general/health-unvaccinated-children/survey-results.html.
    AVN = Meryl Dorey, if you bag one you bag the other. I also note that I threw myself into the lions and have been attacked accordingly. In this world there are always two sides and we both think so differently that we will never see eye to eye. But I will continue my quest to teach people about health and nutrition. I’ve been doing it for 27 years after 6 years of university and every time I speak around the world or nationally at least 1 or 2 people a talk come up to me and tell me their vaccine or drug (prescribed) horror story – yesterday in Orewa NZ I heard yet another. We’re playing russian roulette it all depends on what side of the fence you want to play. This forum is obviously the pro vaccinators with a different set of beliefs and values, I respect your belief but I don’t agree with you nor your arguments.

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    • reasonablehank

      @Cyndi. Is this the same Cyndi who called Rachael a liar, but didn’t respond when asked to substantiate the accusation?

      Did you really cite the German Homeopath’s online survey? Did you really do that? Here is a post regarding your citation, This par is the tl;dr version for you:

      “In any case, I take some comfort in the hilarious result of this survey that demonstrates that autism prevalence in the unvaccinated is similar to autism prevalence among the vaccinated, no matter how much anti-vaccine activists try to spin it otherwise. I realize that this survey is in fact so poorly designed that it really doesn’t tell us much of anything, but it is fun watching anti-vaxer brains explode trying to spin this result as supporting the vaccine/autism hypothesis.”

      http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/08/an_anti-vaccine-administered_survey_back.php

      Thank you for citing the German Homeopath’s online survey.

      You asked for a study where they used saline as a control? Hilariously, this Gardasil study was provided by another anti-vaccinationist trying to show that no saline was used to test for safety. Doink. The very citation provided showed Gardasil was tested for safety using a saline, and another adjuvant based control:

      http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/g/gardasil/gardasil_pi.pdf

      “I respect your belief but I don’t agree with you nor your arguments.”

      This is nothing to do with belief. This is about evidence which can hold up to scrutiny. I respect neither your belief, nor your arguments, as you are a danger to our children due to your wilful ignorance and repetition of anti-vaccination canards which have been addresses ad nauseam.

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    • reasonablehank

      Also, “AVN = Meryl Dorey, if you bag one you bag the other.”

      Precisely. Thanks.

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    • rachaeldunlop

      Hi Cyndi, you asked for a double blind trial with saline as the control. Can you explain to my why you want such a study design? And why would you use saline when this is not an accurate control? A placebo control would contain everything in the vaccine apart from the active ingredient(s). And how do you propose to run such an experiment? Would you give half the kids the vaccine and half placebo then infect them with the disease and see which survive?

      There are plenty of studies looking at vaxed versus unvaxed populations.
      For example a recent study published in this year

      Schmitz, R; Poethko-Müller, C; Reiter, S; Schlaud, M (2011). Vaccination Status and Health in Children and Adolescents: Findings of the German Health Interview and Examination Survey for Children and Adolescents (KiGGS) Dtsch Arztebl Int, 108 (7), 99-104 DOI: 10.3238

      looked at 13 453 kids of which 94 had never received a vaccination.

      “In their study, the authors compare the occurrence of infections and allergies in vaccinated and unvaccinated children and adolescents. These include bronchitis, eczema, colds, and gastrointestinal infections.

      The evaluation showed that unvaccinated children and adolescents differ from their vaccinated peers merely in terms of the frequency of vaccine preventable diseases. These include pertussis, mumps, or measles. As expected, the risk of contracting these diseases is substantially lower in vaccinated children and adolescents”.

      So the only difference in the conditions measured was unvaxed kids have more infectious disease than vaxed.

      For pertussis the lifetime prevalence in unvaccinated subjects was 15.8% in those with sufficient vaccination cover only 2.3%

      For measles, the lifetime prevalence was 15.0% in unvaccinated subjects and 5.2% In vaccinated subjects

      For mumps, the lifetime prevalence in unvaccinated subjects was 9.6% and in vaccinated ones, 3.1%

      For rubella, the lifetime prevalence was 17.0% for unvaccinated subjects and 6.8% in vaccinated ones

      This study did not cover autism as the number of controls was below the incidence rate for autism (1/100) in this population.

      If you want numbers for autism take a look at the IOM report – it’s a 800 page free to download pdf. I put a link in myth #1. This review looked at 8 vaccines and took into account 12,000 peer-reviewed articles, in the largest review of adverse events associated with vaccines since 1994. This was also published in August 2011 and concluded that overall “few health problems are caused by or clearly associated with vaccines”. With respect to autism see conclusion 4.8, page 115: The evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between MMR vaccine and autism. I also cited the Danish study on myth#1 which shows no link between MMR and autism.

      Regarding your link to the Child Health Safety study I have to admit I’m slightly amused that you ask me for DB RCT but you give me an online survey conducted by a homeopath which incidentally backfired.

      Just a few things that were wrong with this – even though the results showed that there was no difference between incidences of ASD in vaxed versus unvaxed BTW. Posting it on a page called “Vaccine Injury” might introduce some bias into the type of people that choose to answer your survey. It was self selecting, that is the author posted it on anti-vaccine pages and websites and asked for contributions. There was no control group, there was no independent assessment, there was no control for people posting fake answers online, thus no verification of whether the results were even real.

      Even the questions were directed to get an anti-vaccine bias

      Why is your child not vaccinated?
      • Vaccine damage/reaction of siblings and friends
      • Intensive preoccupation with vaccine topic
      • Conviction of ineffectiveness of vaccines
      • Through fear of side effects
      • Due to preexisting conditions of the child
      • Concerns about ingredients in vaccines
      • Religious/philosophical belief
      • Other

      Even after all of this the survey came out as the same levels of ASDs for vaxed and unvaxed. There’s a detailed critique of the survey here;

      http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/08/an_anti-vaccine-administered_survey_back.php

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      • lancepenna

        Bugger. I was just about to post Orac’s article in response to Cyndi’s nonsense.

        That was not a study, Cyndi. That was a farce.

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    • Sue

      Cyndi says “In this world there are always two sides ”

      That doesn’t mean that the “two sides” are equally valid. Flat-earthers are the “other side” – does that mean there is still a debate about the shape of the earth?

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      • Mia

        Sometimes there aren’t 2 sides. Sometimes there are just facts.

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        • samanthac

          Hi Mia, I find this comment offensive. It implies that you are right (pro-vax) and everyone else is wrong (anti-vax). I am not pro or anti vax but there IS another side to this debate – as I agree there always is. My son’s arm is permanently damaged due to his 4yr vax shots. He has a large bruise like mark where the veins and arteries were damaged and there’s a hard lump in the skin and through the muscle. It might not sound like much but I see that every day growing with him and it hurts my heart to know that I hurt my child the day that I agreed to the vaccination. You may argue that it’s minor and given the choice over I may well have made the same one I don’t know. All I’m saying is that there are two sides – and they aren’t necessarily the ones you are thinking.
          Please present risks as well as benefits with all medical articles and allow people to make their own choices without judgement, vaccinations have risks of fever, rashes possible seizures and such physical symptoms as my son’s. Grab the insert provided by the pharmaceutical company providing the vax and peruse for yourself.
          FWIW my younger child is also vaccinated although now I come to the 4yr vax for her and I face a quandary. Risk her body? I will have to decide but i don’t like the anger and animosity in this thread. It judges any choice I make before I make it.
          Please – if you’re going to publish medical articles include the risks as well as the benefits. Both sides :) Thanks

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          • Rick Morton

            Those symptoms are all mentioned in the article by Dr Rachael. The argument is, however, whether vaccines work and whether some side effects are worth it.

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          • Andy

            “Risk her body?”

            ..or her life. Hmmm, tough choice.

            Okay, I accept you concern. You did something and the result was less than satisfactory. You have a right to be upset – but you were doing the right thing. Sometimes even doing the right thing carries risks.

            Do your kids wear seat belts? Do you know these can cause harm? Do they eat sandwiches? Do you know kids choke on them? Do they bathe or run or play with a dog sometimes? All risky things – even your own quiet, friendly pet dog, if you have one, is a risk.

            Seriously, will you now deliberate over the tiny, tiny risks of everything you do for your child – or just vaccination?

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          • Faybian

            SamanthaC, how long ago did your son get his needle? It’s possible that it may go eventually in time. 4 year olds are a mixed bag to immunise. Some are very brave and stoic. Others will fight you and trauma is far more likely in those that do. Personally I’m not sure how his veins and arteries got damaged, due to the spot it’s usually given in being very muscular and the general anatomy in the area, but I hope it gets better. Your next child won’t necessarily have the same outcome with her needles though.

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    • KG

      Do you not think that people who come to your lectures are already pre-disposed to agree with your theories in an attempt to make sense of their own tragedy? Do you honestly think that the attendees at your lectures are an accurate sampling of the entire population, or could they possibly be skewed toward the ones that have been convinced that a drug has caused it?

      Let me use an analogy: if I were to walk into a prison, do you think I would find more or the same number of tattoos as I would find in the general population? Do you think I would find more or the same number of gang affiliations as I would in the general population? Do you think I would find an educational level equal to or less than the general population?

      Do you get my point? Your lecture attendees are already a small, relatively homogeneous demographic that is not representative of the entire population. And you are preying on their grief by convincing them that something is to blame when you simply have no concrete evidence to support your claims.

      And a side question: What exactly does this study show to support your claims? That parents are happy with a decision they themselves made for their children? Are there any controls? Are the children longitudinally followed for health problems, or asked if they are happy with their parent’s decisions? Is this perhaps, instead, just a self-satisfaction survey?

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    • Andy

      “In this world there are always two sides…”

      So, the world is flat if we believe it’s flat? People can fly by flapping their arms, if we believe it? Frogs are actually alien pixies that can shoot laser beams from their eyes if you know the secret password… if you believe so? All known diseases can be cured by sitting in a cardboard box? All wars can be stopped just by asking you to stop them? But only if someone, anyone, believes it?

      ALWAYS two sides? No actual facts, no realities? Always two sides?

      I doubt it somehow but if you want it to be true then you could always find a tall building and start flapping, then let us know how it works out.

      As for Meryl, I’m afraid anyone who would post an uncritical link to an article claiming the Illuminati (an alien race of lizard people) use vaccination for mind control and mass culling, is someone I find just a little less than credible.

      I worry for the people you “teach” in the same way I worry for the pensioner who believes they’ll get a brand new bitumen driveway if they give $100 cash to some guy who just happens to pop by unannounced. Sure he’s offering a service and he will definitely deliver a product. But will it be what the customer thought they were paying for?

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  29. Anonymous

    @ Reasonablehank – can you or have you published what you have discovered and experienced whilst being involved with the stop the AVN Campaign?
    Its really difficult as a Mum wanting to do the right thing and in no way endangering your baby and we just want to know the truth! If the dodgy techniques that the AVN network uses were out there then it would make it a little easier to make a decision as they really do put up a good case when Mothers are at their most vulnerable! This discussion has been fantastic and have been following this for days – which I too have never really done before. I have learnt so much! My kiddies are older now and I did vaccinate but I must admit went through my own personal hell whilst deciding as the Anti-vaccers put up an emotionally charged case which is just simply not fair!!! At the time I was confused ~10years ago I found out that most of the ‘studies’ the antivacers were using were from back in the 70′s, in Japan and they would pick out certain bits!!! I had a fabulous Paediatrician who put it all into perspective and have been extremely happy with my decision to vaccinate. I do understand however that new Mothers can be emotionally guilted into not vaccinating – I dont actually blame the Mothers in all cases it is these networks… I feel that most pro posts here are stating just that – they are not personally attacking the individual Mothers but the Anti Networks who are unfairly emotionally trying to sway through fear!
    We are constantly evolving – it really annoys me that so many in this day and age fossialise some things – yes it would be fabulous if we all lived off the land and gathered our food from naturally growing plants, but we dont live in that world right now – yes Indigenous cultures managed very well many years ago before diseases were introduced but realistically they have been introduced so we need to evolve in managing them – so we have intelligent people who can make up these vaccines!!!
    Thank you Rachael and to all the wonderful people here who have made sense of all this – I have still had a little niggling doubt if I did the right thing to vaccinate my darlings and this topic has certainly educated me and I feel at ease that I have done the right thing – thank you all for reading if you got this far …phew!

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    • Jane DJ

      I wish you had put a name to this, it is a fabulous and incredibly encouraging post – I hope for every post like this there are scores of you out there who have also seen the above myths credibly dispelled and thus had your fears allayed. Then you will be making truly informed choices.

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      • Lisa

        Thanks and Sorry Jane DJ not too cluey on writing on forums and wasnt even sure if it would work – it was me Lisa!

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        • Jane DJ

          Bl@@dygoodonya Lisa!

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        • reasonablehank

          Hi Lisa.

          Your comment is spot on. Parents are not to blame. There is a lot of misinformation surrounding vaccination. Anti-vaccinationists like the AVN are the source of this continued dissemination of misinformation. This is what the Stop the AVN campaign is about: honesty, integrity, accuracy. Stop the AVN was founded after a grieving family was harassed by the AVN and its followers. It became clear, very early on, that there was much more to investigate than just their lack of accurate information. There was, and still is, a distinct lack of accountability for their actions and claims. This is why we will never go away.

          Feel free to visit us on Facebook, here, and ask away:
          http://www.facebook.com/stopavn

          We just want parents to have access to accurate, reliable information, including the real risks of vaccination, and the real risks of the return of vaccine preventable disease.

          The AVN does not and cannot do this. We show this every day by investigating every single claim made by Meryl Dorey and her followers.

          Another facet to Stop the AVN is to ensure that Meryl Dorey and the AVN are held to account for their, shall we say, administrative difficulties. The AVN still has to answer to the Department of Justice and the Attorney-General for perceived charitable fundraising anomalies. This is far from over, and the AVN have only themselves to blame for the perceived maladministration of donations.

          I should add: the AVN has been in existence for almost 20 years. The poor professionals at the North Coast Area Health Service have been trying to counter the misinformation the whole time. Special thanks must go to them for their endurance over these many years. There are many other people who have been following the AVN for many years, holding them to account. Special thanks must also go to these people; they know who they are.

          The AVN are not the only ones. Unfortunately, other States have their own version of this deceptive organisation. We are determined to see them all exposed for the public health menaces they are.

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          • Lisa

            Thank you reasonablehank, I will join the facebook page and share away! Fantastic information, thanks again.

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            • Andy

              Anyone wondering if the AVN are a credible source of information should consider this direct quote from the AVN’s blog…

              “Those behind the conspiracy to cull the human population and turn the rest into little more than computer terminals are anti-life.”

              That was from a post by Meryl Dorey in which she linked to an article written by David Icke. Mr Icke believes the whole world is controlled by a race of shape-shifting reptilian overlords and that vaccination is one of the methods they use to control us – by implanting microchips which they can also use to kill us remotely.

              Read the David Icke article at… http://www.davidicke.com/articles/swine-flu/25191-flu-is-not-the-biggest-danger-its-the-vaccine

              And Meryl’s post pointing to it (without any dissenting comment) is here… http://nocompulsoryvaccination.blogspot.com/2009/07/flu-is-not-biggest-danger-its-vaccine.html

              You’ll note the address I’ve given you differs from Meryl’s link but a simple comparison of the opening paragraphs will show you it’s the right article. You can find our more about Icke on wikipedia.

              (hopefully this isn’t a duplicate comment. I’m experiencing difficulties tonight)

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            • Jane DJ

              Holy nutjobs, Batman, that takes the cake.

              Have no more words.

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            • Lisa

              Andy I couldnt reply under yours so I hope you find this!!! OMG!!!!!! What the hell is that link????!!!! That Ickle guy is a complete fruit loop! What a terrible fear progaganda from clearly a nut case! Thank you for the link – couldnt read it all as it was very disturbing to me.. Far out if this is who their ‘leaders’ or ‘information gatherers are’ count me out for sure!!! WOW! Geesh!!! Still disturbed…

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            • Andy

              Icke might be crackers but Australia’s self-proclaimed “leading expert in vaccination” linked to him without so much as a “hey, this guy’s nuts” comment.

              Of course, she denies linking to him but the evidence remains.

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    • rachaeldunlop

      Hi Lisa, thank you to you. Posts like yours make all the hard work worthwhile.

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      • Lisa

        Rachael, I can honestly say that I dont know how you have been able to maintain your patience and integrity for days with this! That alone shows that you indeed believe in what you say – well done and I am glad that this has made you feel that its been worthwhile… I think there are lots of people out there just like me – we are no fools but we can only work with and make decisions with the information we have at any one time and if that information is incorrect or not completely open and honest then thats not fair! Keep up the fight – I do believe there are many like me, quietly reading this topic and I believe you have helped many many people. And to those who have been swayed by the Anti-vaccination networks and followers, I totally understand because its very convincing but at least actually read this topic and its postings cause its easy to read the highlights and dismiss it but you may be surprised once you read with a clear and open mind… and this is not a topic that should be easily dismissed as this affects all our lives!!! literally!!!!

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        • rachaeldunlop

          Hi Lisa, to give you an example of the lengths the AVN will go to to build a case for vaccines being evil, you might be intestered in seeing how they justified their claim that vaccines cause autism when the HCCC asked for them to present it.

          Tom Sidwell who is an immunology student took their document and carefully analysed the scientific papers that they claimed supported their argument. What he found was exactly the opposite. None of the papers showed a link between vaccines and autism. Not a one. But in order to figure this out you needed a fairly high level of understanding of how to interrpret the scientific literature.

          The AVN knows that many people do not have this so they can blind people with science. This is deceitful to say the least. The AVN also practice what is known as Gish Galloping where they provide wads and wads of information that one can likely never wade through. If you take a look at just one of Tom’s analyses you’ll see what I mean.

          http://www.scribd.com/doc/44502227/First-Analysis-Analysis-of-Autism-Articles

          It has also been reported that they have in the past given antenatal classes. Nice way to scare Mums even before they’ve had a baby.

          The other thing to note is the AVN are dishonest about their message. They never admit to being anti-vax but insist they are “pro-choice”. Take a look at any of their information with a critical eye and you’ll see this is demonstrably false.

          .

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          • Sue

            Rachael – have you seen the AVN’s attempt to de-bunk your myth de-bunking. One commenter pointed out that the author has misreported mercury concentrations by a thousand-fold – don’t think it’s been corrected yet. (Parts per million ppm instead of parts per billion ppb). So much for “facts” and science.

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            • Kris2040

              It’s always good when Tristan gets going. (On the responses on their FB page).

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      • Faybian

        Rachel, I also can’t believe you’ve lasted this long, well done!
        It seems that some wish we could vaccinate entirely risk free. You can’t. There will always be that very small number that have an adverse reaction, you’ve just got to decide whether you’re willing to risk it. It seems that immunisations bring out the same reactions as abortions and the environment/carbon tax. I’m happy to keep immunizing kids, I believe in it.

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        • rachaeldunlop

          Thanks Fabian, there’s a name for that – it’s called the Nirvana Fallacy – if it’s not 100% safe or effective then it’s worthless. Nothing in medicine is 100% safe or effective, but neither are seat belts, crossing the road, flying in a plane or swimming in the ocean. It’s funny that many people don’t flinch at the risk of these activities but are unable to resolve the risk/benefit ratio when it comes to vaccines.

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    • Mandy

      I thought I’d tag onto Lisa’s above as it’s kind of a ‘what she said and said so well’ thing. I’ve been following this over the last few days and commented here and there but now wanted to add a thank you for this article.

      If people sitting on the fence in regards to vaccination aren’t swayed to ‘for’ by the clear, rational words of Dr Dunlop, then surely reading through the comments would do it.

      Like you Lisa, I deliberated a bit with my first child seven years ago. I had a few friends who hadn’t vaccinated and gave me quite convincing reasons why they hadn’t. Believe it or not, one of the midwives at the birth centre I was attending was also very passionately against vaccination!!

      Being someone who is into alternative medicine and living simply, I was pretty interested in what they had to say but also was keen to look at the ‘evidence’ from the experts. Can’t remember the specifics of what I read but it definitely had a touch of the cerazy about it which immediately cast doubt over the whole argument.

      The argument FOR just seemed so much more SANE. I did talk to a lot of people including my maternal health nurse and GP. Vaccination just made so much more sense than not vaccinating. I know we’ve been associating anecdotal evidence with the anti vaccination commentors but it’s what swayed me 100% in the end. Surely if our kids were getting so sick and dying of vaccinations we would ALL have a vaccine horror story to tell.

      I think that’s why people like the ‘pro-choice’ are such an angry frustrated bunch of ‘anons’ – it must be EXHAUSTING ignoring that voice of reason!

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      • Lisa

        Thanks Mandy, we both have had very similar experiences and I too am into alternative medicine and also very much into using the best of both worlds – basically doing what works and what makes sense to me – whether thats alternative or western medicine. I dont think you have to be one or the other as such! You hit it on the head Mandy – it must be sooo exhausting ignoring and always ready on the defensive being scared of someone asking too many questions that you dont have the answer for!!!

        I remember years ago having a discussion with a lady going on about ‘baby wearing’ basically if you love your baby then you should carry them around all day attached to you – my 2nd bubba use to hate being swaddled and would spread out all the time and he was huge over 11pounds born (but if I love my baby I would ‘wear’ him all the time – what the…!). I asked her why this was so neccessary and all she could tell me (as this is all the info that covinced her that she ‘should’ do this) is that African tribal woman do this and therefore its natural!!!!! WTF!!!!! Ok, if I live in Africa in a tribe I would too carry my baby cause there are mightly big animals over there that may find my baby quite tasty – I bet given then chance these wonderful African woman she referred to would LOVE to be able to put their baby down!!!! Had to get that off my chest, feel better now!!! May have just opened up a whole new can of worms… but my point is that sometimes we blindingly follow something because it may be the ‘natural’ thing to do – do your research people!!!
        I did, Mandy did and you know what – we love our children too!

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        • Kris2040

          Hi guys,

          I’m actually in a group on Facebook called “Wear Em, Nurse Em, and Vax Em, too!”, which came out of the Attachment Parenting groups and a few people getting heartily sick of the holier than thou attitudes of them and how hardcore they get.

          We call ourselves “Schippies” – science diggin’ hippies! Because we are all into (to varying degrees) vegetarianism, baby wearing, breastfeeding, general attachment parenting theories, or not, but we all vaccinate our kids. For hippies they can certainly get nasty, eh?

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          • Mia

            Scientific hippies! I love it!

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          • LC

            Kris, that FB group sounds brilliant! I can totally relate to being a science-loving hippie :)

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        • Mandy

          Oh, I hears ya sista! I’m totally with you, I have always approached treatments/lifestyle as a pick and choose deal…why limit yourself to one ‘side’?

          Best of both worlds, You got it in one! And vaccination, I feel, is one of the miracles of western science.

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    • Lisa

      Even their name Australian Vaccination Network is soooo misleading – anyone looking up information cannot help but stumble across the AVN and through its scare campaigns get confused. Look I can understand how Meryl and the AVN think that there is a case for their concerns as they would only get people who have been affected by vaccines knocking on their door so to speak – so therefore its easy to think its everywhere – its the same if an Obstrician claims that everyone must be pregnant cause thats who they see all day every day!!!

      I totally ‘get’ it now! No one on here has stated that vaccines are 100% effective – if there are those that cannot, have reactions or have a family history that sways them either way then that is ok cause if all the rest of us who can DO vaccinate, all the above will be better protected – if we all get caught up in the fear and dont vaccinate then I am sorry but there will be so many more deaths. Just notice in this whole topic all those who have stated that they or their children cannot be vaccinated for legitimate reasons they have been supported, its the ones who are perfected fine to do so but bang on about the fear campaign, get questioned!!!

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    • Andy

      Here’s a direct quote from the AVN’s blog…

      “Those behind the conspiracy to cull the human population and turn the rest into little more than computer terminals are anti-life.”

      That was from a post by Meryl Dorey in which she linked to an article written by David Icke. Mr Icke believes the whole world is controlled by a race of shape-shifting reptilian overlords and that vaccination is one of the methods they use to control us – by implanting microchips which they can also use to kill us remotely.

      Read the David Icke article at… http://www.davidicke.com/articles/swine-flu/25191-flu-is-not-the-biggest-danger-its-the-vaccine

      And Meryl’s post pointing to it (without any dissenting comment) is here… http://nocompulsoryvaccination.blogspot.com/2009/07/flu-is-not-biggest-danger-its-vaccine.html

      You’ll note the address I’ve given you differs from Meryl’s link but a simple comparison of the opening paragraphs will show you it’s the right article. You can find our more about Icke on wikipedia.

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      • Kris2040

        It’s hard to choose a favourite AVer theory of Meryl’s and others, but Erwin and his theory that mass immunisation is responsible for more people of the gay has to be right up there.

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        • Rick Morton

          I knew I shouldn’t have had my shots, now I’m a flaming queen.

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          • Kris2040

            Well, at least you know why now. I think it has something to do with the nanobots.

            Seriously, he reckons that while, yes, there have been gays since forever, people with the Gay are more prevalent now and it’s because of mass immunisation programs. I remember you writing that your Mum wondered if it was something she’d done, now you can tell everyone, it’s not playing with dolls or trucks, it’s GETTING YOUR JABS as a kid that gives you the gay.

            Why everyone isn’t gay hasn’t been explained, like why everyone isn’t walking around with “horrific vaccine injuries”. I’d suggest liking Erwin’s page on FB, but he doesn’t need any encouragement.

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            • Lisa

              Are you serious!!!! I am so angry that I lost so much sleep and went thorugh so much turmoil when my kids were younger and that I was pretty close to not vaccinating my kids!!! the anti-vaccination people need to be outed more (well I guess this is doing that but all need to actually read it not dismiss it). Shutting down wont help cause they will cry out consipracy but just shown for what they are – thank goodness there is facebook, internet, etc more so now so Mothers today wont have to go through what I did (actually the internet may be the work of the devil – but they are all on it!) So glad this all started – I hope it helps parents out there see through the BS of the AVN!

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            • Kris2040

              Yeah, that’s kind of my idea of putting it out there – show them for the loopy nutcases that they are. You can look at their pages without liking them. Generally if you question or contradict them, though, you get banned. But apparently the pro-vax people are the ones against freedom of speech. Erwin runs VINE out of NZ. There are some hilarious and frightening people and groups around, that’s for sure. There are actually chicken pox party groups to infect your kids with chicken pox voluntarily. There are also groups (which I may or may not be a member of) to Find a lightning strike party in your area and Seat belt awareness. Sticking it to Big Weather and Big Auto!

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  30. Emma

    Random thought, but I wonder if a kid whose parents chose not to immunise, caught some infectious disease and survived, but had some long term health problems as a result – could they sue their parents for damages?

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  31. Michael

    Every time someone begins an argument with an anecdote of vaccine failure I want to shoot myself in the arm.

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  32. Mo5

    Thank you Dr Dunlop, commonsense at last!

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  33. Mum of 2

    I hate that I have had to make a decision on this issue for my children. I wish that I could accept with blind faith everything I have been told (please don’t think that I am saying that either pro or anti-vacc’ers are just using blind faith. I’m not saying that. I’m just expressing a wish for simpler times when we didn’t have so much information to wade through! We are paralysed by too many choices).

    I waded through all of this information trying to come up with a position that I was happy with when I was pregnant with my first. The end result was that I did go ahead with vacc’ing (consider me as someone was 51% for, 49% against at this point). I have since worked out that vaccines just don’t agree with my child – we have not seen good effects on them. I think it started as early as the 4mth vacc where she screamed inconsolably for seemingly no reason for several hours a few hours after receiving the vacc (she was usually a very placid child). This child has since had plenty of issues ranging from speech disorders, ataxia, hypotonia and ear problems.With my second child? I delayed it and worked out my own schedule, but now at school age this child is almost completely vaccinated (have gone as far as I plan to at this stage – not planning on adding chickenpox one. A few years ago they would have been considered completely vaccinated before they added even more vacc to the schedule). My two children react completely differently to each other – the second seems to be handle them ok, the first child does not.

    The most recent one I got talked into giving my older child was the six in 1 shot that is due around school age (my GP remains convinced of the positives of vacc). I decided that it was worth it as I was concerned about this child encountering tetanus through an injury that they didn’t report (this child tends to injure themselves but hates to let anyone know). I thought it worth the risk. Instead of getting the specific vacc I had arrived prepared to request after doing my research (a specific one that did not include all 6 vacc in it. I even had the name of it from Public Health). The GP told me that this vacc did not exist (what, the specialist vaccination arm of Public Health is giving out the wrong info?) and my husband and I were talked into giving the child the 6 in 1. The end result was a child a few hours later crying in agony from an arm showing a huge red blotch from elbow to shoulder (this is a child that usually doesn’t really register pain – previously bad injuries had barely registered with her so this must have really REALLY hurt). The blotch became worse over the next day or so until they decided to treat it. They still wouldn’t admit it had anything to do with the vaccine (this is the response that we get each time the child reacts).

    Here is the thing – when we look at prescribing medication to a child we look at things that they are allergic too (penicillin etc) before we administer a drug. Why is it so difficult to think that it is possible that some kids should just not be vaccinated because their bodies just don’t agree with it? That vaccinations shouldn’t be one size fits all? This is not to say that all kids shouldn’t be (case in point – my own two children react very differently to them), just that some kids definitely shouldn’t be.

    Do I want my child to get sick from some preventable disease? No. Do I want my child to suffer at the currently available vacc that seems to only make her sick in a different way? No. I hate that I can’t seem to win on this one. I hate that the figures of ‘adverse reactions’ aren’t trustworthy because I know from my own experience that GPs don’t seem to report what look like obvious adverse reactions. I hate that GPs have become so blase about the whole vacc issue that they treat it like a small deal (my second child, who usually reacts well to vaccination passed out and vomited about 20 mins after a vacc because I followed what the GP had told me and left the office. You can imagine how horrified I was at what I had done by giving her the vacc when I was so 50/50 at the whole thing, and this was supposed to be the child that DID deal with them ok!).

    I just want the medical profession to admit some grey on this area, and not paint it as so black and white. It should not be one size fits all and reactions should be taken seriously and not treated as a parent over reacting (It was only when my second child was having ECGs etc in emergency that they decided it was worth reporting!). It would not be practical to test every child before they start undergoing vacc (well at least not until they have something specific to test for) but please accept that there are plenty of us for whom vacc is a white knuckle ride that we cross our fingers/ toes etc before going anywhere near and that we wish things could be as simple as they are painted by the pro-vacc side of the debate. Do I need to be constantly questioning whether I am doing the right thing? I absolutely hate that I do, no matter which way I go!

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    • Ally

      Thank you Mum of 2, you have expressed very eloquently what I have been trying to say. A one size fits all approach does not work for everyone. This doesn’t make you crazy, a conspiracy theorist and certainly not ánti-vax’ (despite what some people on here will try to tell you). There are definitely a lot of grey areas, and it wouldn’t hurt the pro-vax side to admit that.

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      • Andy

        It’s like when a mechanic repairs your brakes… he never bothers to tell you the failure rate of brake pads – and I’ll wager that almost no one ever asks. Yet those statistics exist somewhere and your life is depending on those brake pads. Why don’t people research this issue given that they probably use their brakes dozens of times every day, on average?

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    • Emma

      Your comment is pretty well rounded, however, I do have one little irk:
      “I just want the medical profession to admit some grey on this area, and not paint it as so black and white.”
      I am a pharmacologist and, if you look at pharmacology journals, you will see that there is an enormous amount of grey in there. Medical Practitioners, I think, generally like to give the short answers, because these are easily understood in layman’s terms (ie. let me give them the needle). The CMIs (Consumer medicine information – I think) are similarly worded for the every-person. The fact is is that to delve into the specifics is like opening Pandora’s box – unless you have a degree in science/medicine, it will probably bore you to tears and you probably won’t understand a lot of it. Please do not think I am meaning to sound patronising or pretentious, I plan to do medicine and hope that one day I will have the stamina to explain things as I (and by the sounds of it, you too) would like them to be explained. Absolutely, there should be accessible, reliable information out there, but I think doctors, like many of us, prefer to take the easy option. Also, most patients probably don’t want to hear a massive lecture, they just want to be told ‘you need to take x to make things better, or to prevent y’. If you want in depth info you need to get your doctor to realise you really want to know the ‘ins and outs of the duck’s guts’. If you’re not satisfied, find a doctor who is happy to explain things in terms you’re comfortable with. My doctor knows I’m studying pharmacology, so she explains things using concepts I understand. Obviously, she doesn’t do this for everyone, but I just kept asking questions until I was satisfied, and now she is used to having to explain things to me.
      If anyone wants in depth information on any medications, not just immunisations, the best place to go is your local pharmacy and ask for a print out from the AMH (Australian Medicines Handbook) or e-Mims. Tell them not the CMI (which is kind of the dumbed-down version) but the practitioner’s information. Also, if you know the name of the ingredient in the drug, not the brand name (as in ‘paracetamol’ not ‘Panadol’) it makes thing easier. The information in these sources is very well balanced and comprehensive. Your doctor would probably be able to supply it too, but pharmacy would probably be simpler. Beware though – it is certainly not light reading.

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      • Lisa

        Emma, fantastic post – thank you, again makes it all clearer and what you said make perfect sense! Good luck with your studies!

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      • Jane DJ

        I hear you Emma. Trying to communicate the complexity of these levels of immunological studies is definitely a big hurdle. Recently had the same challenge in convincing some horse people how “No, we can’t just collect the blood of the dog with asymptomatic Hendra and vaccinate people with the antibodies from it .”

        This complexity is not some big smokescreen used to try and bamboozle – it literally is mind-blowingly difficult to understand unless you are trained in the discipline.

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    • Zelicat

      Mum of two… ( before any one yells at me or screams – anti/ pro vaxxer, my child is fully vaccinated) my daughter had a reaction to the ” swine flu” vaccination last year, that basically involved a spreading rash and painful swollen elbow joint, we went from Emergency room, to GP, back to emergency, refered to a paediactric specialist, an auto immune specialist and even xrays, blood tests, etc to determine the cause. As each possible cause was ruled out it was more and more obivious to me that the cause was a reaction to the vaccine, and there was a reluctance within the medical staff to recognize this was the issue. It was, eventually reported as an adverse reaction to that particular vaccination. So I get what you are saying about a dismissive ( or reluctance to acknowledge) side affects and reactions. I am in favor of vaccines, ( I am probably over vaccinated due to my time in the military! ) but since that vaccination I do worry more and ask more questions and I find GPs are generally dismissive of these concerns.
      That said I absolutely get that her side affects are a a lot milder / less painful the contracting measles or diptheria etc
      And know a couple whose newborn baby died after being exposed to TB whilst in hospital from an unvaccinated active TB visitor. Just heart breaking.
      I guess like you, I chose to vaccinate for my own childs safety and the good of the community. But the possible reactions and side effects do worry me.

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  34. Yasmin

    Mia, I am wondering when your dinner rules will apply to this discussion. I am outraged that you would not only allow such abuse and disgrace to be displayed here, but provide your full support.

    I could care less about you respecting or not respecting someone elses decisions. That is your right. But to incite hatrred, is NOT your right.

    You should all be ashamed of yourselves. These are mothers who have agonised and spent countless hours crying over their decisions. How dare you be so cruel. These mothers would die for their babies, just like you would.

    I have vaccinated ALL 3 of my children, but my sister did not vaccinate her baby. The amount of shit she has had to go through is just crazy. She is highly educated and went through depression making this decision. Not once has she endangered anyone. She searched everywhere for information and was ridiculed by the likes of these people on this forum for even asking questions.

    What is this society getting to if we cannot ask questions?

    It is important to note that she does not believe in the consipracy theory. She believes that doctors and scientist are simply doing what they believe, not that they are out to kill her. So please do not lump everyone in that category.

    Finally, just because the majority agrees, does not mean anything. The majority agreed in Nazi Germany didnt they?

    Oh by the way, my sister is still open to change her mind, but at this point, all she gets is defensiveness from all angles. I really feel for her.

    And Mia, your smart enough to know that drink driving is not a right, but making a choice on what we put in our childrens bodies is our right. You know just as well as I do, that Dr Healy has admitted on national TV that the researchers have deliberately not included the most susceptible to vaccine reactions in their studies. That is not science. That is fraud and dam right unethical!

    It amases me how you all ignore facts like that. Disgusting.

    You can do better than that Mia.

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    • lancepenna

      I love it when a rabid anti-vaxxer starts talking about “facts”.

      Generally they are very dismissive of facts, especially when referring to the efficacy and safety of vaccines.

      Do you have any real “facts” to show us to back up your position.

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    • lancepenna

      Ooooh, and a Godwin too.

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      • kateinlondon

        i have just googled that one – BRILLIANT!

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      • Jane DJ

        ‘Twas inevitable….

        And I’m firmly in the Tim MInchin camp when it comes to my dinner party behaviour…
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U

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      • reasonablehank

        “Nazi Germany”

        *DRINK*

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        • carolynj

          I’ve been checking back in to see when it would crop up. Excellent!

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      • rainbow

        for those too lazy to google:

        Godwin’s law (also known as Godwin’s Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin’s Law of Nazi Analogies)[1][2] is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990[2] that has become an Internet adage. It states: “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.”[2][3] In other words, Godwin observed that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis.

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    • kateinlondon

      One statement in your comments stands out for me ‘Not once has she endangered anyone.’ How on earth does she know that? Do her children live inside? Do they go to school? Parks?

      Because as has been stated so many times below, this is a key part of the problem – I am sure that not quite so many people would be up in arms at the anti-vaccination stance if it only involved their own children. BUT IT DOESN’T. It involves some of the most vulnerable in society. And this is why she gets ‘defensiveness’. People NEED to disagree with her.

      And are you referring to Dr Bernadine Healey? Age of Autism’s person of the year 2008? Who before her death firmly aligned hersef with the anti-vaccination movement, including the mentalness that is Generation Rescue?

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    • Orchid

      Can you show me a post that incites hatred? All I see are people replying to comments with actual facts rather than nonsense. The only people getting worked up here are the people who have had their “evidence” discredited.

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    • Jane DJ

      THere are ethical problems with testing medicine on the most susceptible.

      You just cannot for example get a bunch of 6 month old babies with pneumococcal meningitis and only give half of them antibiotics just to ethically work out for really really sure that its the anitbiotics work, or whether their immune systems can fight it off naturally.

      Just the same as you can’t take a bunch of 2 month old babies, vaccinate only half and then expose them all to said disease. It would make for great results, and I’m sure Josef Mengele would have jumped at the chance, but it is not ethical. (sorry sorry sorry – Godwin-ish)

      Or how about we accept the current observed evidence, which is a jolly large population of kiddies running around, happily immunized, happily not autistic, scientifically significantly so.

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    • Emma

      I’m not sure what comments you’re reading, but most of the ones I’ve read have been pretty sincere and well-rounded. Then again, it may just be selective reading – you should try it too. Or would you prefer us to be saying, ‘wow, this roast is really tender, can I have the recipe’?

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    • Deb

      I’m sorry, Yasmin, your sister does believe in conspiracy theories.

      Conspiracy theories does not have anything to do with killing people, it’s about a group of people working together to hide something.

      In order to believe the anti-vaccination rhetoric, you have to accept that doctors, nurses, scientists, researchers, epidemiologists and data analysts from all around the world, working for different companies, universities, governments, religious organisations and charities are ALL somehow missing or covering up the harm caused by vaccines. By definition, that’s a conspiracy.

      But don’t worry, a small, dedicated group of lay people, who don’t understand medicine or immunology, don’t have access to populations other than their own children and have never conducted research, have somehow managed to uncover this terrible secret.

      They’re not brave mavericks trying to help the rest of us, it’s a bad movie plot.

      I accept that most of the parents involved are scared and are trying to do their best for their children. But that doesn’t give you magical superpowers to read things more clearly than the people who’ve studied it and been doing it for years.

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    • Andy

      You think researchers should intentionally test a vaccine on children with a known susceptibility? This is why people get angry at people who assume they know more than the experts – because, in reality, they have no concept of the issues at all.

      From the moment of conception, children face potentially billions of risky situations throughout their lives. From playing to bathing to walking down stairs. Riding horses, riding in cars and planes, going out in the sun, staying indoors, eating cake or bread or fruit or vegetables – or anything. All carry risks and most probably greater than the risks of vaccinating.

      While I can understand some level of doubt, given the outspoken nature of the anti-vax lobby and the space they’re given by a willing media, I just cannot imagine any parent applies that same level of doubt to absolutely everything they and their child will ever experience. There just aren’t enough hours in the day.

      Do we know what minute levels of specific chemicals there are in carpets, paints, car upholstery, toys, clothing, the air we breathe, trees in our garden, vegetables, toast and jam, herbal remedies, computers, tables, chairs, dog hair, beach sand, sea water, tap water, bottled water, filtered water, rain water (I imagine a lot of anti vaxers will swear by the rainwater they collect off their galvanised roofs and store in concrete/fibreglass/galvanised tanks without a thought for what’s actually dissolved in it), photocopy paper, newspaper, digital cameras, budgies, sand pits, lawns,… everything!

      It’s almost certain “toxins” like formaldehyde, aluminium and zinc run riot through that list of things our kids will come into contact with on a regular basis. But no one’s started up a lobby group telling us that salad sandwiches are a government plot that puts Nazi Germany to shame or that handling photocopy paper is like “rape with full penetration” (as Meryl Dorey did with vaccination), so we don’t give them a second thought.

      But should we know – or should we trust that, in the main, our governments and scientists aren’t really trying to poison all our children for no reason whatsoever and that researchers just might know more about their job than we do?

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  35. rachaeldunlop

    I’d just like to remind anyone who is defending the AVN on this page of the Health Care Complaints Commission public warning issued about their website. The full warning is here http://www.hccc.nsw.gov.au/Publications/Media-Releases/PUBLIC-WARNING-/default.aspx. In short;

    The Commission’s investigation of the complaints focussed on the material presented by the AVN on its website http://www.avn.org.au.

    The Commission’s investigation established that the AVN website:

    • provides information that is solely anti-vaccination
    • contains information that is incorrect and misleading
    • quotes selectively from research to suggest that vaccination may be dangerous.

    You won’t get any accurate information from the AVN

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    • Andy

      But isn’t the HCCC run by lizard people? I read something like this on the AVN blog where they said the Illuminati (Lizard People) are trying to kill us all with vaccination.

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      • Hayley

        The HCCC is a Scientology organisation. Was researching a DVD they produced and found out who they really were.

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        • rachaeldunlop

          Hi Hayley, I think you mean the CCHR – Citizens Committee on Human Rights. They are linked to Scientology. The HCCC is the Health Care Complaints Commission.

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          • Andy

            :)

            And don’t the AVN sell some Scientology stuff on their website? There’s that link with alien races again. It just won’t go away.

            The AVN believe some pretty bizarre stuff.

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  36. An Idle Dad

    Sheesh. Go away for a day – leave common sense comments and general agreement to come back and find all these conspiracy theorists!

    The central belief of every moron is that he is the victim of a mysterious conspiracy against his common rights and true deserts. He ascribes all his failures to get on in the world, all of his congenital incapacity and damfoolishness, to the machinations of werewolves assembled in Wall Street, or some other such den of infamy.
    H.L. Mencken

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    • Ken Wood

      Idle Dad, nutty antivax conspiracy theorists often refer to something that I call the “GSCTEKA” – the Giant Secret Conspiracy That Everyone Knows About.

      These loonies think every scientist and medical doctor in the world is planning to kill them in a giant conspiracy that is totally secret…except for thousands and thousand of antivax nutters who bang on about it on the Internet all day long…

      Yeah, right. Stuff like this just shows how far away from sanity these fruitcakes have slipped.

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  37. Amanda

    I always find it amazing when anti-vaccine people go and rely on medicine to cure other ailments such as infections etc. If you don’t trust vaccines why do you trust other areas of medicine? It really amazes me how anti-vaccine people still see the doctor when they’re really sick.

    I know this because I am a GP and I have some patients who refuse to vaccinate their children (despite my best intentions to explain why it’s necessary) and yet they come in all concerned if their child has say an ear infection. If you don’t believe in vaccines why do you then believe in other medicine like antibiotics and the like? It really makes no sense to me.

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    • Yasmin

      Amanda, we must know a completely different bunch of people. because the ones who choose not to vaccinate avoid doctors at all cost. They use alternative medicines and only resort to anti biotics as a last resort. What you will find is that they seldom ever use it and have incredible outcomes.

      I think you have made that little story up.

      Oh, your comment about trusting medicine for one thing and not another just because it suits them is really stupid. If your really a doctor, surely you are smart enough to know that some medicines are better than others? Surely you would know that not all treatments would suit every single person the same way/ Surely would know about allergies and reactions?

      Gess, are you sure your a doctor?

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      • Anonymous

        and you are REALLY rude…

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      • Amanda

        You completely made my point for me when you said that these people ‘only use antibiotics as a last resort.’ That’s what really gets to me: that people can be so anti-vaccine/anti-medicine and yet when their health is imminently in danger (as opposed to health prevention, which is what vaccinating is), then they rely on medicine.

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        • Andy

          Yeah, liike most people, they use antibiotics when they need them which, like most people, is not usually that often.

          The difference appears to be that they spend money on homeopaths and naturopaths and chiropractors to deal with things that will probably go away by themselves then thank alternative remedies when they go away or get antibiotics when they don’t

          The rest of, on the other hand, just wait to see if things go away by themselves – then get antibiotics when they don’t. And we’re the stupid sheeple!

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      • Anonymous

        Yes it’s charming to listen to some anti-vaxxers. Like the one boasting her daughter had only had anti-biotics once in her life, she had school sores and was treating them with homeopathy but it turned into a staph infection and she needed anti-biotics.

        Personally if I’d been so neglectful that my child developed a staph infection from something as simple as school sores it is something I’d be deeply ashamed of. Not boast about how the magic water surprisingly completely failed to do anything useful and eventually I had to turn to real medicine. But that is the warped world of an anti-vax parent.

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  38. I’ve really enjoyed reading the comments – thanks to all who have commented for a thought provoking read and for the calm tone.
    Thank you Dr Rachael
    I have 4 children – all are vaccinated for their age, FOR ME the benefit outweighs the risk.

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  39. Bec

    I know a lady who had to have 4 C-Sections because due to polio at a young age, her body was so damaged there was no way her or her babies would have survived natural births…..wonder if all these hippy no-vacc parents realise what they could be doing to there children in the future? How many of you no-vacc parents had drug free births because thats the natural way and were dead against caesereans?? Explain that to your daughters in years to come when they are faced with the reprecussion of your actions. (obviously c-sections aren’t always a choice but you get my point)

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    • Anonymous

      Or how about how their daughters may end up with children with severe disabilities (including autism) due to congenital rubella syndrome.

      What, vaccines *prevent* autism? Yep. Sure do.

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      • Sue

        Congenital rubella has essentially disappeared from Australia since routine vaccination became systematic in the early 1970′s. So much for the “improved hygiene and nutrition” theories – not much changed here, except that young women became immune…

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        • Jane DJ

          I have seen for myself what happens when there is a window of unvaccinated population – in 1995 there was a rubella epidemic Australia-wide, mainly among young men in their teens and 20′s. These were the population who wasn’t included in the vaccination schedule of 14 year old girls in the 70′s and 80′s, and also weren’t included when the 12 month old MMR was brought in a few years before.

          I worked in a pathology lab at the time, and there was an absolute explosion of positive rubella results in that demographic. My husband included. He had been feeling like cr@p for a few days, then walked out of the shower one morning and my reaction on seeing the distinctive rash was something along the lines of “Holy $#^&, you’ve got Rubella!!” Poor luv – I took several blood sample from him – bedridden – as it was SO RARE to be getting positive rubella IgM results, that the samples were stockpiled as positive controls on our analysis machines.

          The cases mirrored changes to the vaccination schedule:

          http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/content/cda-cdi2701-pdf-cnt.htm/$FILE/cdi2701e.pdf

          I shudder to think what would have happened had I been pregnant and non-immune at the time.

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  40. clarinette

    I’m always surprised when i hear that “vaccines cause autism” thing. I had a fright myself, after being absolutely apalled by this theory for years: when my daughter got “18 months old round of vaccines”, she experienced a slight cognitive delay for a few months. It was RIGHT after it, so I suddently found myself thinking, against all logic: what if it WERE related?? she’s now the brightest 2 years old i’ve ever met, sleeps in a one person bed and is diaper free lol. She might still be autistic, mind you, i personally think she’s too bright not to be autistic, but if she is, it’s because I am. It’s genetic.
    Being afraid of vaccines is not as logical as being afraid of the diseases they prevent.

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    • Kris2040

      I’ve often thought about you and your daughter when looking at anti-vax “AUTISM!!!!” stuff, clarinette. Glad she’s doing so well! The amount of “proof” that people throw around just like what you saw with your daughter is astounding. Nice one for countering it! And you’re completely logical and right about being afraid of vaccines.

      You probably freak the AV crowd out, you know, by being open about your autism and actually having kids and stuff! You must have missed their memo that ASD = life over.

      xoxo

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      • clarinette

        Do I freak them out? I don’t know, they seem to be the kind of people who would say “only low functionning autism is autism”. It doesn’t seem to matter that so called high functionning autistics can go non-verbal when subjected to intense stress or faced with too much stupidity :D
        But then again, I’m part of a bunch of people who think low functionning autistics don’t necessarily have any mental deficiency. They’re just hard to test with all lines of communication shut. Their lives have value, and i’m very angry at those who think autism is a sort of horrible disease that should be eradicated.
        I may have missed their memo, or read it and thrown it in the trash, who knows :p

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        • mamaruns

          Clarinette, I loved reading your comments. My son at 2 has recently been diagnosed with an ASD and it hasn’t changed the awesome little person he is, not even in the slightest.

          In future I’ll remember that his non-verbal phases may simply be a result of being faced with too much stupidity :-) and may even consider positioning it thus to select individuals!

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          • clarinette

            Oh my, I’m sorry :D I didn’t really think about how that sentence could affect parents :S thoughtless . You know, what i call “stupidity” is mainly being misunderstood ten times in a row and giving up trying….I have an ASD son , too, he’s 9, and i know i exhaust him sometimes, not understanding, not caring enough about the legend of Zelda…he probably thinks i’m stupid. Just like I think his teachers are stupid for being offended when i give them tools on how to deal with him when they know NOTHING!!! (breathe…..) about autism. Stupidity is very relative to the topic of the conversation you’re having and whom you’re having it with :P

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  41. KG

    Does anyone else notice how the people arguing against vaccination generally appear to be much less educated in general than those advocating vaccination? (Evidence: spelling, grammar, ability to find scientific articles and access to research databases, ability to read and understand said articles.) That says something in itself about ignorance and what it can do. So, to sum up, this is a problem of lack of education.

    Unfortunately, uneducated people are also quite often stubborn and defensive people, as most are when they feel they are being backed into a corner. You have to speak to them like you would speak to a child, if this image helps. You can’t jump down your daughter’s throat when she asks why the tooth fairy hasn’t proportionately compensated her for her larger molars in comparison to her incisors, or berate your son when he tells you his imaginary friend Tom has unicorn stables on his ranch. Understand that these things are reality to these people, and you have to take a more supportive and understanding approach to educating them and changing their minds.

    Don’t exacerbate the disparity by rubbing their faces into the mud as well by speaking down to them in a condescending tone. It’s already unfortunate enough that they didn’t receive the level of education that we took for granted, and thus can be more easily susceptible to unfounded claims, results of poorly conducted “research,” and fear-mongering. This is just another disparity that low SES causes. It’s the same reason why rates of preventable disease like HIV/AIDS are drastically higher among people with low SES. If you really want to see change, help these people understand instead of mocking them.

    When educating these people, you should take on a tone of reassurance and support, as the article did, instead of ridicule. This is the only way we can all meet on common ground, instead of causing hyper-polarization on each side of this issue.

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    • An Idle Dad

      Except the facts don’t back up your statement. I live in Woy Woy, which doesn’t have all the trappings of higher education, yet has one of the highest immunisation rates in NSW.

      In the Eastern Suburbs with it’s very high percentage of people who have finished high school and completed tertiary education, has one of the lowest.

      The only places with lower rates than the most educated populations are alternative lifestyle areas, like Byron Bay.

      It is important not to antagonise, but starting with “dem unedookated folk” probably isn’t the best start?

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      • KG

        Thank you, Idle Dad, for pointing this out. What I refer to is not quantity of education, it is quality. Higher education does not factor into my statement, nor does even having a high school diploma. Perhaps this is purely an American phenomenon, and I do not know about any of the locations you mentioned in your reply since it is not in the US, but I can tell you that the difference in education at even a basic level varies remarkably according to SES. At seven, with the education I received from my parents about the world coupled with the fantastic teachers I had, I knew more than some of the teenagers graduating high school a few blocks away from me, and I made better choices because of it. I was given the tools to critically think and analyze and come to sound conclusions based on current evidence. I didn’t need a high school diploma for that. Though I did choose to pursue quite a bit more than that down the road, I was more adequately prepared to make good decisions by age 7 than my 18 year old counterparts down the street who were left behind by the public education system.

        Now, I do not mean to belittle anyone, because it sounds like you are definitely not one of the people I am talking about, and I apologize if my statement was unintentionally offensive, but I do think that people who have been offered very little by their educational systems have more trouble processing and evaluating arguments and evidence, and are more susceptible to persuasion by fear as opposed to logic. In the American educational system, you can live in a poor neighborhood and graduate high school with the reading comprehension of a child, for example, and the cycle perpetuates itself.

        Fortunately for us in the US, we do at least require vaccination before entrance into our public schools, which offsets this, however it does remain a problem in terms of how we look at vaccinations, and there are still many people who would not vaccinate if they had the opportunity. The US government continues to be a reactionary government with poor foresight, and the lack of interest they show in the equality of public education shows in this issue as it does with many others. The requirement of vaccinations is just a band-aid for the larger problem of a crumbling educational system.

        Does that make a bit more sense?

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        • Mum of 2

          Hi KG,

          I couldn’t read your post and not reply. From my other post you will see that I sit in the grey area on this issue because of my experiences. I just wanted to let you know that there really are plenty of people who question vacc who are educated, intelligent people (if I do say so myself. :-) ). I educated at the university level. In the course of my education over the years I was taught to think about things, and to critically question the information I was given and make my own decisions. A university recruiter who was speaking to our Year 12 class even went so far as to say that at university people are taught to think (not what to think but to think for themselves) and this, rather than the specific degree that people are taught is the most important thing when you are looking for future employment as this is the most important skill you gain from attending university (obviously he wasn’t including specific degrees like medicine, teaching etc which lead to specific employment when he said this). Now I’m not debating the merits of a Uni degree over other education, I’m just saying that my approach to the Vacc debate was to try and examine as much information as I could find (from both sides of the debate as sadly both sides hold very strong beliefs, and there is a general lack of completely objective information around – at least there was when I first started looking into it anyway. The pro vacc’ers were horrified that people would even question vacc’ing and didn’t feel a need to let people decide for themselves, and the anti vacc’ers were more interested in a scare campaign than providing solid info too). I have always appreciated well written articles such as Rachel’s and add it into my knowledge/ research on the issue.

          There are plenty of people who don’t vacc because of scare campaigns rather than really looking into it, sure. But there are equally plenty of people who vacc purely because they were told to, rather than deciding to after they examined all the information. I don’t believe that either side can truly claim the highest figure of intelligence/ education. I would just hope that each parent made their decision after considering the options, and that they were supported in their quest to find out as much as they could, no matter which decision they made as to whether to vacc or not.

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          • KG

            I’m not understanding what you are trying to say, Mum of 2. What you are trying to tell me is that there is a lack of completely objective information all around, when this is simply untrue. What exactly constitutes your definition of “objective?” Being as highly educated as you are, you must know that there is no absolute objectivity in anything that is done on earth by another human being, and the reason we have peer reviewed journals is to mitigate the effects of exactly that. Having been published, I can tell you that it is an extremely difficult feat to enter even what you think is the most unbiased data (on things that have no direct implication on human health, even) into those journals, and what is published by reputable sources is considered reputable because the work submitted for publishing is scrutinized by experts in the field before the results are released to the public, and these experts are incredibly critical and ask all the questions you claim that they do not. This is the basis of scientific reasoning: it is largely deductive. Let me know if you’re still with me here, I’d be happy to explain deductive reasoning and the scientific method to you.

            Now, let’s not even consider the anti-vaccine camp’s piecemeal data. Taking the overwhelming evidence, like the evidence presented just in this article alone, that has been subject to scrutiny, evaluation and even global, independent corroboration to yield the same results over and over again, how can one possibly poke a hole in the logic of vaccination? Where is the reputable data that contradicts it? An educated person can tell the difference between quality data and bogus, poorly acquired data that cannot stand up to peer review and is thus not included in a reputable source. If you are having difficulty discerning between the two, I definitely do not blame you, I just think that you have not been given the tools to understand the difference.

            Like I said before, it is not quantity of education that I speak of when I posted my comment, it is quality. You spend a lot of time quoting a speech that you were given at the end of high school about thinking for yourself, and I agree, you definitely seem to have the capacity to make your own decisions like the majority of people on this planet, but if you cannot tell the difference between good data and poor data then your educational institution has failed you, and you are not able to make the best decision for yourself because you are not able to see the information clearly. My point remains the same.

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            • KG

              Oh, and very importantly, if you can’t see from my previous post, I do not think that questioning vaccination and devising new study designs that test their efficacy and safety is a bad thing, nor does the rest of the scientific community. That’s exactly what we’re all about. The problem is, if you wait for science to finish studying so you can make a final decision, you’ll never finish waiting, because science is an infinitely advancing frontier. You have to make your decisions based on current data, period, or you’re making the wrong decision through your refusal to take action.

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            • Jane DJ

              Thanks for an excellent explanation KG – I’ve wracked my brain, started and deleted several responses to this and you’ve worded it perfectly.

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          • Andy

            “But there are equally plenty of people who vacc purely because they were told to, rather than deciding to after they examined all the information.”

            I get my brakes repaired when the expert advises me too. I don’t put it off for six months while I take an evening course in automotive engineering.

            I turn off my mobile phone in a plane when the expert tells me too. I don’t leave it on while I Google everything I can find on aero-electronics.

            I don’t light a match at a fuel pump, despite never having tested the explosion theory for myself and never, in fact, having researched the issue.

            I put on sunscreen because 1: I’ve had melanoma and 2: the experts advise it. I don’t just keep going out in the sun while I complete a degree in dermatology with a heavy focus on carcinomas.

            In general, I trust that the world’s scientists aren’t out to kill me or my children for no apparent reason.

            As for anti-vax – it lost all credibility for me when I kept seeing the “every toxin is always a toxin, no matter what” gambit. It’s patent nonsense and they know it. If they believed it, they’d never eat or breathe because you can’t do either without taking in toxins – which is just as well because some of those known “toxins” are essential for our survival.

            But I wonder why you’d even be doing a university course in any subject if researching absolutely everything yourself is so easy. What can they possibly teach you about anything that you can’t know more about without them?

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    • An Idle Dad

      Though, after reading the rest of the comments, you point now seems well made…

      Eek!

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  42. annamumofone

    Can I just say on a frivolous note i <3 Kate In London, Jane DJ, amandarose and Rachael after reading both the article and your responses to the comments.

    And for the record, I stand firmly in the pro-vaccination camp. My daughter is 17, allergic to penicillin and erythromycin and fully vaccinated – Hep B as a baby, all the normal childhood shots and the cervical cancer shot. Unfortunately, the chicken pox needle wasnt around in time for her – she caught chicken pox and became extremely ill and then developed shingles at the grand old age of 7.
    I am also up to date with all my shots and boosters and nag my friends and family about getting theirs esp pertussis.
    I'm with amandarose let's tackle dodgy alternative 'medicines' next.

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  43. amandarose

    Glad to hear a voice of reason in the vaccination debate. Now when can we tackle dodgy herbal medicines? Everybody thinking they are gluten intolerant? Pharmaceutical companies and pharmacies pushing unproven crap onto doctors and the public?

    Bring it on I say!

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  44. Pingback: » It’s been a busy week. Enjoy some Friday lols

  45. Pingback: Dr. Rachie slays the Nine Vaccine Ringwraiths with Science « Losing In The Lucky Country

  46. hannah

    I’m so glad that in america you have to be immunized to enter the public school system. there’s not very many times and I get to say I like something that america does better than somebody else!

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    • CC

      Except it’s not true. In many areas of the US, all you need to do is sign a waiver saying you have philosophical/religious/whatever objections to vaccinating your children and your kids can be enrolled.

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  47. Good Girl

    I have tried to read the 650+ comments on here, but I just wanted to say a huge thank you to Dr Rachel Dunlop for this clear and interesting article. It was informative and well researched, and I really admire the way you have calmly responded to any opposing views below in a professional manner. Well done!

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  48. tash

    A friend of mine put it perfectly today when discussing this very topic, I would rather my child alive with Autism than dead from a preventable disease

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    • Emma

      I agree with you completely but to be honest I think a lot of people would rather take the risk of a preventable death than have a child with autism.

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      • Jane DJ

        Considering vaccination does not cause autism, someone could end up with an unavoidably autistic child that also then gets a horrible complication from a preventable disease.

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        • carolynj

          Actually this is what worries me about my sis in law’s son, she stopped immunisation after he was diagnosed and now he has appalling health issues and terrible immunity.
          Unfortunately she read Jenny McCarthy’s book and was desperate for something to blame.

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      • mamaruns

        The thought of an autistic child used to scare the crap out of me… Until my gorgeous little boy was diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder just before he turned two (only a few months ago).

        Funny thing…he’s still the same cheeky, completely adorable boy that he was before the diagnosis. Now it seems we have an explanation for his repetitive and sometimes pointless play behaviours and stubbornness.

        He is vaccinated and not for one second do I believe vaccines to be responsible. He actually shares a lot of character traits with my husband who, we suspect, might have received a similar diagnosis at age 2 had my MIL taken him to a DR about his lack of speech and other behaviors.

        I could not imagine losing our beautiful little bear to a preventable disease had we not vaccinated. Your point really summed up the outcome of the dilemma that many face, sad that some might consider possible death better than possible (in their mind) autism.

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        • Jane DJ

          That’s something that has saddened me about the anti-vax stance – convincing so many that somehow an ( unproven ) possibility of potential autism is a more unthinkable horror than the proven potentially fatal / disabling diseases they are actually leaving their, and by extension, other people’s children exposed to .

          What an awesome Mum you are, mamaruns – your little bear is so lucky !

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          • mamaruns

            Thanks :-) .

            There are challenges naturally, however I’m sure parents of kids who had polio in the 50′s had it way tougher than we do with our son. Again, this comparison is meaningless to me as I am very certain that vaccines do not cause autism, however hopefully those who are yet to be convinced will read this and think twice, if not about their belief, then about autism being worse than a preventable disease. The footage shown in a recent polio doco on SBS of little kids lying in iron lungs for months on end… Just heartbreaking.

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  49. Saku

    I suppose it is still not possible to convert the ignorant to the one way of reducing disease prevalence and actually saving the lives of the most vunlerable… regardless of how much evidence is shoved in their face that Vaccinations do actually save lives…

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  50. lancepenna

    With Meryl Dorey doing her very own “scientific critique” of this article, I began wondering why she does not simply visit this site and try to debunk Dr Dunlop in a public forum.

    I suspect that Dorey is quite happy to sit behind the Iron Curtain of the AVN page and not risk the humiliation that would come with discussing vaccinations with a real expert.

    Great article Dr Dunlop

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    • rachaeldunlop

      Thanks Lance Penna, sadly the AVN has a habit of deleting or not releasing comments they don’t like. They wouldn’t have such control here. Perhaps this is why they haven’t come over to debate on this blog. Just a speculation of course.

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      • Kris2040

        Also, they wouldn’t be able to claim restriction of freedom of speech and hate crimes like they normally do. Before, er, banning people who ask them questions about their claims.

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