Do You Like This Story?
baby vaccination2 380x573 9 vaccination myths busted. With science!

.

A recent survey found more than two thirds of us research our medications on-line and half of us turn to “Dr Google” for diagnosis. But how do you know the information you are getting online is accurate? Basically, you don’t. In fact studies show if you search Google for “vaccination”, 60% of the results will not only be misleading but downright scary. In a time when vaccine-preventable diseases such as whooping cough and measles are in the news again, it’s critically important to know the facts about vaccination so that you can protect your kids and yourself.

So, let’s take a look at some of the common myths about vaccination and why they’re wrong.

Myth 1: Vaccines cause autism.

No doubt you’ve heard this myth – it’s been around for some time now. In a nutshell, there is no solid scientific evidence for a link between vaccines and autism. And believe me, science has been looking for well over 14 years. The theory that vaccines cause autism was first suggested by Andrew Wakefield in 1998. Since then, Wakefield’s paper has been discredited and withdrawn from The Lancet and Wakefield has lost his medical licence for showing “callous disregard” for children’s welfare.

Since 1998 there have been countless large and comprehensive studies looking for a link between vaccines and autism, but the evidence keeps coming up negative. The largest study was done in Denmark and covered all children born from January 1991 through December 1998. A total of 537,303 children of which eighty-two percent were vaccinated for MMR were examined and there was no association between vaccination and the development of autistic disorder.

Further, in August 2011, an exhaustive review of the scientific literature by the Institute of Medicine in the US concluded that overall “few health problems are caused by or clearly associated with vaccines”. And when I say “exhaustive review”, I mean 12,000 peer-reviewed articles, covering eight different vaccines were pored over by a committee of 18 experts in the largest review of adverse events associated with vaccines since 1994. It was a thorough and herculean effort concluding that there is no causal relationship between vaccines and autism.

Myth 2: Vaccines contain mercury

Mercury was removed from all routine childhood vaccines in Australia in the year 2000 (with the exception of one type of HepB vaccine which contains trace amounts) and it was never in the MMR vaccine. Prior to 2000, thimerosal, an organomercury compound, was used in the manufacturing process of vaccines as a preservative. The process left only trace amounts in the finished product – you ingest more mercury when you eat a can of tuna than you would ever get from a vaccine. Also there are two types of mercury – methyl mercury is the scary environmental toxin that “bioaccumulates” in your body, and ethyl mercury the type found in thimerosal, which does not bioaccumulate.
If thimerosal was implicated in autism, you would expect a significant drop in cases after its removal. Instead the opposite is true – autism rates continue to rise.

Myth 3: Vaccines contain toxic ingredients

JennyMcCarthy 380x214 9 vaccination myths busted. With science!

Jenny McCarthy whose son was diagnosed with autism led the charge against vaccinations claiming there was a link between the condition and immunisations.

Look anywhere on the Internet and you’ll find long scary looking lists of chemicals that anti-vaccine advocates claim are present in vaccines. Things such as anti-freeze, formaldehyde, aluminium phosphate, human fetal tissue, monkey kidney and lung cells, and most famously mercury. They also claim vaccines cause diseases such as AIDS, asthma, autism, cancers, diabetes, leukemia, lupus, SIDS, the list goes on. Many of these claims are quite simply untrue. The rest, without exception, misrepresent the facts.

For example, some viruses are grown on cell lines in the laboratory that were obtained from aborted fetal tissue many years ago. When a virus is grown on cells like these, it is extensively purified and many steps later, prepared into a vaccine. To say there are aborted human fetus cells in the vaccine is a bit like saying there is dirt in apples since they were once grown on a tree that grew in dirt. It’s misleading, scaremongering and simply not true. As for formaldehyde, there are trace amounts of formaldehyde in vaccines but much less than what your body naturally produces everyday.

Some vaccines do contain tiny amounts of metals like aluminium which have been used for over 80 years to increase the effectiveness of the vaccine. These are known as “adjuvants” and work like a booster to kick start the immune system into making antibodies. But just as the “dose makes the poison”, the concentrations of these metals are so low as to not be harmful to the body. Similarly, small doses of paracetamol cure pain but large doses have been known to cause liver failure.

Myth 4: Vaccines have never been tested.

All vaccines currently available in Australia must pass stringent safety testing before being approved for use by the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA), which is our government body responsible for regulating pharmaceuticals. Multiple clinical trials for safety and effectiveness are also performed as part of the development process (which takes anywhere between 10 to 15 years, and many millions of dollars) and safety monitoring continues for as long as the vaccine is in use.

For example with the polio vaccine, two million kids were involved in the field trial which was conducted in the US in 1954. More recently, the safety of the new cervical cancer vaccines was studied in large-scale clinical trials involving more than 50,000 people before being licensed for use. Safety continues to be monitored after 35 million doses with the majority of side effects being fever, headache and other minor ailments.

Like any medical procedure there are risks associated with the use of vaccines. This was brought to light in 2010 when dozens of kids suffered high temperatures and convulsions following administration of the flu vaccine. The vaccine was immediately withdrawn from use and the government commenced an investigation.

When people claim that vaccines have “never been tested” they usually mean that they have not undergone randomized placebo controlled trials (RCTs). To do an RCT of a vaccine you would need to take two groups of kids, give one group the vaccine, and the other a placebo, then expose both groups to the disease to see which ones survive. Raise your hand if you can see the problem here…

Not only would such an experiment be unethical, it’s unnecessary. We have extensive evidence demonstrating the effectiveness of vaccines; the eradication of smallpox and the near-eradication of polio from the world are just two examples.

Myth 5: Vaccines don’t work because children who are vaccinated can still get the disease.

No vaccine is 100% effective, and since everybody’s physiology is different, not everyone will develop immunity to the same degree; a vaccine is not a force field. But while you can still breathe in a virus or pick up bacteria off a door handle, the seriousness of the disease will be significantly reduced if you have been vaccinated. In the case of pertussis or whooping cough, severe complications such as seizures and pneumonia occur almost exclusively in unvaccinated people and one in every 200 babies who contract the disease will die.

Also, vaccine-induced and naturally acquired immunity fades over time. Notably, immunity from the whooping cough is not lifelong and infected adults, including child care workers and early years professionals, may be passing the infection on to children. This is why it is so important to get boosters if you are around young kids – especially those who are too young to be vaccinated. If you’re a parent make sure you, the grandparents, and other relatives and friends have boosters before they get to meet baby. Talk to your GP for advice on pertussis boosters (which are free until June 2012 in Victoria).

Myth 6: Improved living standards, not vaccination have reduced disease.

Iron lung CDC 380x250 9 vaccination myths busted. With science!

The iron lung, the machine used to keep polio patients alive.

The three most significant factors in the reduction of infectious disease have been clean water, sewerage systems, and vaccination. But even in isolation, vaccination has made a huge dent in reducing rates of disease. Following the introduction of the national meningococcal C immunisation program in January 2003, the number of cases decreased by 39% while numbers of people admitted to hospital with the disease was down by 47%. When the Haemophilus influenzae type B (Hib) vaccination was introduced into Australia in 1992 there was a 94% reduction in cases in children under the age of five (the most frequent illnesses caused by Hib are meningitis, septicemia and pneumonia). Yet living conditions in Australia have changed only marginally since 1992 or 2003. Vaccines have also significantly reduced suffering from the complications of infectious disease. Whilst mortality from polio was less than twenty percent, complications such as paralysis, skeletal deformities, and prolonged immobility during confinement in an iron lung caused significant suffering, all of which were eliminated by widespread vaccination.

Myth 7: Infectious diseases are not serious; children are meant to get them.

Just because they’re called “childhood diseases” doesn’t mean it’s okay for kids to get them and neither are they necessarily benign. Let’s take a look at whooping cough as an example, since Australia has been the grips of an epidemic for several years now.

Whooping cough is much more than “just a bad cough”. Kids often turn blue from lack of oxygen during coughing fits, they may vomit after severe attacks, and even fracture ribs. There is no cure for whooping cough – antibiotics are given to help stop the transmission to others – you just have to hope your immune system can fight it. Severe complications such as pneumonia and brain damage occur almost exclusively in unvaccinated people and in babies under 6 months of age the symptoms can be severe or life threatening. Whooping cough is also known as the 100-day cough making it a chronic and potentially fatal disease.

If you still think infectious diseases are harmless, wander through your local cemetery one day and note how many children died from diseases that we no longer see in society today – stamped out largely due to mass vaccination. Some of us are old enough to remember the images of children in iron lungs and calipers during the scourge of polio, which was wiped out by vaccination.

Myth 8: Vaccines cause or spread the diseases they are supposed to prevent.

vaccination syringes 380x506 9 vaccination myths busted. With science!

It's easy to make vaccinations look terrifying, but they're a child's best friend.

Experiencing a slight temperature and/or a sore arm after getting a vaccine is actually a good thing. While some people misinterpret this as “getting the flu after the flu vaccine” it simply indicates that your immune system is responding. Vaccines work by priming your immune system with a part of the disease, usually inactivated particles or a fraction of the organism, so that it can make antibodies. This means next time you come across the disease in the environment your body is ready with an arsenal of antibodies to attack it before it can make you really sick.

Vaccines are not 100% safe – no medical intervention is without risk – and mistakes do happen. In the 1950s in America there was a spate of cases of polio caused by the vaccine, but this was due to a mistake in the manufacturing process and was quickly corrected. Regulations, monitoring and quality control has greatly increased since that time, meaning incidents such as this are very unlikely to be repeated. The risks associated with the disease greatly outweigh the risk from a vaccine.

Myth 9: My child’s immune system will be overwhelmed.

Some parents worry that vaccines weaken or overwhelm the immune system, particularly when given to babies or when multiple vaccines are given at the same time. Children are exposed to many foreign particles on a daily basis through activities such as routine eating, drinking and playing and vaccines contain only a tiny number in comparison to what children encounter every day in their environment. The amount of immune challenges that children fight every day (2,000 — 6,000) is significantly greater than the number of antigens in any combination of vaccines (about 150 for the entire vaccination schedule).

More information: This is certainly not an exhaustive list of myths surrounding vaccination. If you’d like to know more, the following sources contain accurate and easy to read information for parents on vaccination including myths, misconceptions and information about the diseases.

Chain of Protection is an initiative of The National Centre for Immunisation Research and Surveillance (NCIRS) which contains lots of vaccine information, videos and more.
The NCIRS also produce the MMR Decision Aid which is a step-by-step guide to the MMR.
A great general resource for parents wanting to know more about vaccination can be found in the Australian Government publication; Understanding Childhood Immunisation Booklet (highly recommended)
General questions about vaccination can be found on the Australian Governments website; Frequently asked Questions About Immunisation
For more detailed information about vaccines, with references to scientific studies, see the Australian Government’s Handbook; Immunisation Myths and Realities, Responding to Arguments about Immunisation
A complete schedule of the current vaccinations required under the National Immunisation Program can be found here.

AVN 4461 Dave Jackson fake redacted 380x99 9 vaccination myths busted. With science!

.

Please note: The AVN has flooded the comments section below with pseudo-science and inflated numbers. We have ourselves noticed many people using the same IP address and now an AVN supporter has admitted to posting at least 30 times from just one user, using fake IP addressed. So you’re aware of the tactics used.

If you’re after a more light hearted parody of the refusal to acknowledge real science, check out this video:

So, any questions?

Dr. Rachael Dunlop is a medical researcher, science communicator and campaigner for science-based medicine in Australia, with a special interest in the anti-vaccination movement and alternative medicine.   Rachael started life as a fine artist and graphic designer but was seduced by the secret world of virus and tropical diseases and was lured to university to study science. After 8 years of study in both Adelaide and Sydney, she surfaced with a PhD and an interest in diseases associated with ageing. Now working in medical research she is currently focused on the environmental triggers for motor neuron disease with a special interest in toxins found in blue green algae.   Rachael is a vice president of the Australian Skeptics and a contributor to their magazine and website. She is member of the Mystery Investigators, a science show for kids that uses science to explain the strange and unusual such as UFOs and ghosts. Rachael is a reporter for The Skeptic Zone Podcast which reaches over 7000 listeners worldwide every week. She blogs at the Skeptics Book of PoohPooh and tweets at Dr Rachie. Rachael was the winner of the 2010 Shorty Award for Health and enjoys combining her love of science and art to communicate science to the public.

View more posts on:

Comments

Comment Guidelines : Imagine you’re at a dinner party. Different opinions are welcome but keep it respectful or the host will show you the door. We have zero tolerance for any abuse of our writers, our editorial team or other commenters. So if you’re rude, mean-spirited, snarky, aggressive, defamatory or bitchy, your comment will be deleted (so will any replies to the original comment – so don’t bother arguing with rude people, instead just hit the ‘alert moderator’ button).
And if you’re offensive, you’ll be blacklisted and all your comments will go directly to spam. Remember what Fonzie was like? Cool. That’s how we’re going to be – cool. Have fun and thanks for adding to the conversation…

Use your profile to comment: Or, comment as a guest:
(Max file size is 150kb & jpeg's only - if you need help resizing go here »)

1,884 Comments so far

  1. Nicole

    Thanks so much for this. Unfortunately the anti-vacc loonies will never read or believe it as they are not interested in facts. I am not a particularly judgmental person, but the anti-vacc movement pushes all my buttons. They are putting MY children at risk through compromising herd immunity. That’s unforgiveable

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • brightrfish

      Well said, Nicole! I feel exactly the same way about the anti-vacc community.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  2. Jesse

    And… very disappointed to see this article on your website, Mia. A lot of people read your blog and believe in your opinions and this is just shameful. Vaccinations ARE dangerous and mostly unnecessary. The best thing every parent can do is INVESTIGATE BEFORE YOU VACCINATE (something the AVN site is very good for, for a start). And I don’t mean ask your dr. They are on the drug company payroll.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Mia

      Jesse – you are deluded.
      This is possibly the MM post of which I am most proud to have published.
      The only thing the AVN is good at is spreading harmful propaganda to vulnerable parents that endangers the lives of their babies and others.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Funkhouse

      AVN is a complete joke. They ignore anything that doesn’t support their wild conspiracies. They’re still referring to Wakefield as a ‘doctor’ even though he was stripped of the title.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Andy

      I assume you mean the Lizard-People payroll Jesse. I read about THAT on the AVN blog too. Very credible indeed.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Anonymous

      Wow, Jesse, just wow…So you’re saying that my family GP – who quite often recommendeds natural remedies before a prescription (which I don’t think he’d do if he was on the drug companies’ payroll), lied to me when he said that the risk to my child from immunisation was miniscule? That there was more risk to my son by not vaccinating?

      You need a serious reality check. If you want to investigate, there are plenty of more reliable, informed sources with facts (yes, actual honest-to-God facts! not the rubbish the AVN creates) about the pros and cons of vaccination.

      And as for unneccesary? I hope you get measles. Tell me how you like it, how it affects your health, and whether you’d like to subject an infant to it, then tell me it’s unneccesary.

      Peace out.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  3. Jesse

    Dr Dunlop, I don’t know how you sleep at night.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Mia

      Rachael sleeps the untroubled sleep of someone who is doing great work and helping to raise awareness that could save lives.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Funkhouse

      Like the rest of us – happy and warm in the knowledge that we’ve done the best for our families.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • rachaeldunlop

      Hi Jesse, Actually I’m not sleeping well at the moment having just come back from a conference trying to find a cure for ALS or motor neuron disease.

      I agree that you should investigate before you vaccinate, but the AVN is not where you should look. No need to believe me either – just look at what the NSW gov said about their information

      The Commission’s investigation established that the AVN website:

      provides information that is solely anti-vaccination
      contains information that is incorrect and misleading
      quotes selectively from research to suggest that vaccination may be dangerous.

      I think everyone should decide for themselves. But if I saw this, I would think twice.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  4. Jane DJ

    Several recent comments, including mine seem to have vanished from the top of this post., above Funkhouse’s :( The comment thread was quite civil at the time – did it get Hoovered for a reason?)

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Jane DJ

      Nevermind – found it!

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  5. Kris2040

    Just so everyone knows, this “questioning” is a big old piece of Antivax propaganda. Renee, I doubt you’d like the questions most of us would ask.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Kris2040

      It’s marketed by that renowned and reviled quack Mercola, Barbara Loe Fisher and Palevsky.

      Where are the vaccine preventable disease injured people, Renee?

      It IS anti-vax propaganda. Mercola’s link: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/10/30/the-greater-good.aspx

      The age of autism, Killer Vaccines, IAS and the AVN are all flogging it as speaking the trooof. I won’t waste my download limit.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Jane DJ

        Gasp – shame on you Kris for not respecting specialists in woo-ology!

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
      • Geekery

        “Hundreds, perhaps thousands…”

        Wow, with well researched facts like that I’m amazed nobody takes you seriously. I like your use of rhetoric questions to add more haziness to your already flimsy claims.

        As for the video – as a media professional it DOES fall under the category of propaganda.

        Before you spin out the same retort, I am a parent, but I care enough about my children to protect them from preventable illness.

        Best you read this before you try replying: http://houseofgeekery.wordpress.com/2011/10/20/five-reasons-not-to-vaccinate-your-child/

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
      • Mia

        Someone choosing to whether or not to breast feed their child doesn’t have the potential to kill someone else’s baby. That is the difference.
        Vaccinate. Listen to doctors and science.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • effurvax

          Vaccines killed my baby and severely injured my daughter. She has recovered now in case you might have cared. Obviously we have refused to sacrifice anymore of our children. My unvaxxed children are no more a threat than fully vaxxed children seeing that they are still carriers of the diseases they are supposedly attempting to eradicate. Also they are sick more often than unvaxxed children. *note: this is an unstudied observation from parents of unvaxxed children.

          Now~ many ‘anti-vaccine’ parents were vaccinating until something terrible happend. So you can understand why we feel that it is important to share our experiences. If someone chooses not to vaccinate before something terrible happens~that choice is theirs alone. We are well aware of the diseases and longterm side effects of them but we are also aware of the long term side effects of vaccination. ie: death
          Nowhere has any agency said that vaccines are 100% safe or effective. Nowhere can anyone prove without a dought (or severely manipulated studies) that higher vaccination rates offer anymore protection. <Check out outbreaks in 100% vaccinated comunities.
          It is clear that you have done very little research into this very complex subject. I am not trying to insult you. At one time I too was not well researched.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
          • Kris2040

            For someone who is so well researched, you’re surely not purporting the myth that vaccinated people shed the illness they’re vaccinated for now, are you?

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
      • Jane DJ

        ” I am very well researched as much as a mother who doesnt have a science degree can be.”
        And therin lies the rub. I am a mother and a holder of a science degree and can say that it is the most arrogant thing in the world for you to think you have researched the subject better than scientists. The REAL science behind the development and implementation of vaccines is mind-blowingly complex, and you rely on non-scientific groups with an agenda to push to interpret (wrongly) the current evidence for you, dumb it down, hype up the fear factor, and voila, all of a sudden you know better. Well you are wrong. Wrong. WRONG.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
  6. Pingback: Vaccination: Making the right choice seminar with Meryl Dorey « Losing In The Lucky Country

  7. Funkhouse

    The AVN recently posted this article on their blog – possibly only have read the title. You’ll know what I mean soon enough…

    http://houseofgeekery.wordpress.com/2011/10/20/five-reasons-not-to-vaccinate-your-child/

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • lancepenna

      Hahahahahahahahahaha.

      Not the first time, and it won’t be the last that Meryl posts without reading.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  8. Georgie

    As a child I was not able to be vaccinated due to a severe allergy to some part of the vaccines. Subsequently I managed to get all “childhood diseases” including ones which weren’t common in Australia in the 1970′s and spent much of my childhood in seclusion. Thankfully my mum decided that we would deal with the allergic consequences when it came to the Rubella vaccination (I received it and was very sick!) Now a parent to a healthy 18 month old, I didn’t think twice to vaccinate him. Not vaccinating him wasn’t an option! I would never wish upon anyone what I had gone through as a child and I am terrified that he will go to kinder/school and catch these preventable diseases because someone else chose not to vaccinate their children. While I am pro-choice, surely when something like illness & diseases effects others, there shouldn’t be a choice.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • emmamcintyre

      I’m the same. I couldn’t be immunised due to allergies. I had mumps, chickenpox, measles, german measles, the works. It was horrible.

      My daughter is immunised and I ask everyone else to do the same. I don’t want to get sick and I sure as hell don’t want anyone else to.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  9. Anonymous

    Oh my, I have really tried to find a way to believe in the ‘Anti-Vaccination Network’ through all this but I am done!!! If you want to see how self destructive and what sort of people follow and run this organisation go to their facebook page!!! And then go and read the Stop the Australian Vaccination Network for some sensible logic!!!!! (you do need to be quick as they are trying as best they can to put out spot fires and save face a little – AVN deletes many things) I know not all members and supporters of the AVN are nutters, but you need to see who it is that you are following!! My gosh – I think it may have started out with the best intentions but the horse has well and truly bolted – wow, insane!!!!!

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Andy

      “you do need to be quick as they are trying as best they can to put out spot fires and save face a little…”

      I had to read that a couple of times to be sure you weren’t saying that STOP AVN are putting out fires. I see you meant the AVN.

      Anyway, it seems AVN have put all the fires out for now (it was more of a raging inferno at one point, btw) and Meryl’s saying “I don’t really mind a bit of charcoal around the place.”

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  10. Renee

    There is a lot of reference to bogus websites etc but I am pretty confident that most parents who choose not to vaccinate do more than Internet research. There are plenty of published books written by very well educated health professionals who have very sensible scientific based reasons for not vaccinating or choosing safe shot strategies. I know plenty of doctors who choose not to vaccinate their own children. It really is a damned if you do and damned if you don’t. Parenting is tough and no decision of mine is made lightly. With the decrease of some childhood diseases due to vaccination there has been a huge influx of others. Asthma,diabetes, add, celiac disease, just to name a few! Most parents who choose not to vaccinate dont have their heads in the clouds and make very informed decisions based on fact not some bullshit website on google.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Sue

      Renee, can you tell us what sources you have researched that tell you that diabetes, asthma and coeliac disease are caused by vaccination? I’d like to hear your “very sensible scientific based reasons for not vaccinating ” and what research evidence supports it.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Deb

      It would have to be a very informed decision to decide that the health department schedule based on the work of thousands of doctors and scientists is all wrong.

      Which books did you use? And how did you decide that those authors were better informed and qualified than the people who contributed to the schedule?

      For example, the promoter of one particularly bad (from a scientific point of view) popular book, Dr Bob Sears, was the paediatrician of the intentionally unvaccinated index patient in a measles outbreak. And it was actually in his waiting room that 4 other children were infected, including a 10 month old baby who was hospitalised.

      Let’s hope none of those children go on to develop SSPE.

      You would hope a paediatrician would know what he is talking about but unfortunately one who facilitated an outbreak is not someone I would take vaccine advice from.

      http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2011/04/2008-measles-in-dr-bob-sears-waiting.html

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Andy

      There are plenty of books written by well-educated theologists claiming the Christian god is real. There are plenty of other books written by equally well-educated theologists claiming the Muslim god is real. I’m sure the Sikhs, Hindus and others have plenty of “research” that shows all the other theological tomes to be wrong. Let’s face it, they can’t all be right.

      Anyone can write and publish a book these days. Anyone. But writing a book does not make you right. It’s more important, from a scientific standpoint, to get your ideas past your peers by publishing in quality journals. Ask yourself why your favourite authors chose to go the “direct to market” path instead – and see if you can answer without raising a conspiracy theory.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Grendel

      Renee,

      Current research into disorders such as coeliac and asthma point in a much more interesting direction than you suggest by blaming them on vaccines. One theory currently being tested by research is that the immune system is some individuals becomes overactive and attacks the body itself. The research indicated that this over response would normally deal with toxins released from parasites such as hookworms and a very promising line of enquiry exists – including clinical trials to test this theory.

      Improved public health has resulted in several things occuring at once – increased vaccination has led to a decrease in the diseases vaccines target, and sanitation has reduced our exposure to parasites. The fact that these these occurred concurrently does not mean that they are related. Where a possible relationship is identified – such as a potential link between the absence of parasites and an increase in autoimmune diseases, then this needs to be researched.

      We all want a quick fix, or something to blame, but vaccines have been a quick target of blame for a multitude of problems but one that is repeatedly shown to be not the problem at all.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Dr Justine

      Renee- I would love you to publicly name JUST ONE doctor who has not vaccinated their child- JUST ONE, (since you know plenty) and I would be happy to approach them for their opinion.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Mia

      No Renee, it’s just damned if you don’t.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  11. maryjanepindar

    It seems like when you have already made up your mind to believe something then there is no amount of evidence that will change your opinion. A Dr.’s opinion is just that a highly educated guess and I guess that is why it is suggested that you get a second opinion when you talk to your Dr. Because they are human and the scope of their knowledge is limited to what they have learned or read or experienced where as another Dr. may have different knowledge based on their own background and experience. You have to keep an open mind when researching on vaccines because you have to take in to consideration what that individual has to gain by suggesting their opinion. If their opinion is in line with the so called scientific research conducted by drug companies then they are praised, published, and confirmed as being a good Dr. But to suggest that your own scientific research does not align with what drug companies would like you to believe then you are ridiculed, persecuted and your career is over. So why would anyone put themselves in that situation; simply put when you know the truth you cannot help but declare it. It is worth career suicide to save lives and prevent horrible brain damaging effects. Don’t just dismiss an article a) because it isn’t written by a Dr. or b) because it doesn’t align with what you already believe. There are some very convincing arguments on both sides of the vaccine debate, do your research and follow your own logical conclusion. Oh and you may have to visit these pro-choice, pro-rights or otherwise known as pro unvaccinated sights in order to get information because it is suppressed, look at the sources of the information a lot of these articles are based on scientific facts and research and archived government collected data. Here’s a Dr.s opinion I’d like to share: he’s a retired neurosurgeon and has nothing to gain for presenting these facts. http://www.whale.to/vaccine/blaylock1.html

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Jane DJ

      Sorry, luv, a retired doctor who preaches anti-science and promotes pseudoscience is still a quack, no matter how many letters after his name.
      http://www.skepdic.com/blaylock.html
      I hope you especially rock up to him if you get cancer maryjanepindar, because he has a cure, you know. His supplements also cure Alzheimers and Parkinsons, pleeeease use all of his special tablets, someone with your insight deserves his Brain Repair Formula in more ways than one.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Andy

      Right on!

      whale.to is definitely my goto place for suppressed information.

      One of my favourites is “Nature of Reptilian Shapeshifting and Hosting Process” http://www.whale.to/b/rep9.html

      They have lots, lots more about the conspiracies being hatched by our shape-shifting reptilian overlords… http://www.whale.to/b/reptilian_h.html

      Yep, for sure, for reals. Given a choice between trusting the “opinion” of a medical specialist and someone who believes the world is run by lizards, I’m going with those who risk their lives by exposing the reptilian secret society for all to see.

      Nice work Mary. BTW, do you know where I can buy a fashionable tinfoil hat, the ones around here actually look like they were assembled by reptiles. Ugly!

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Andy

      I tried linking to the super-secret information about our reptilian overlords also exposed at whale.to but my comments never appeared. Clearly it’s a conspiracy to silence me. MaryJane, they’re onto us. Need more tinfoil now!

      But here’s a trick the overlords don’t know about (Google search for shapeshifting and whale.to together. Their secrets will be revealed to you too)

      But, in all seriousness maryjanepindar, given that you accept doctors are fallible creatures, on what basis to you choose to trust the word of one discredited doctor who actually sells expensive products directly to users over the word of the vast, vast, vast majority of the medical profession?

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Jane DJ

        Oh, wow. Poe’s law has this very eve been revealed unto me, by Googling thusly.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
      • Andy

        Ha! Seems I scared the Illuminati into action and now my controversial comment suddenly appears. A win for reason and another blow against our cold-blooded manipulators. Fight the good fight against these conspirators!

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
    • sianmorton

      ‘A Dr.’s opinion is just that a highly educated guess’

      Actually, no.

      It is entirely your right to make decisions on behalf of your own children and family, but do not ever confuse that right with making a decision based on real evidence. The freedoms in our society allow us to believe in the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, the Easter bunny, ghosts, monsters under the bed, homeopathy, reiki, reflexology and all number of deities, but this freedom doesn’t mean that they actually exist or are in any way effective. There is an abundance of evidence supporting vaccination. You have simply made a choice to dismiss it. Having rights doesn’t make you right.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Andy

        Lots of drive-by anti-vaxers apparently unwilling to defend their ironic, hypocritical and usually-illogical anti-science views.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
    • David

      Hi, You are in part correct. A doctor’s opinion is just his/her opinion wheen you are talking about music, cars, golf or hairstyles. A doctor (apart from your aformentioned Baylock) does not actually give his/her opinion during an appointment, they give you advice based on a combination of personal experience but mainly the evidence based on the scientific literature. The doctor may say opinion but it is in fact a precis of the current scientific knowledge tinged with personla experience

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Andy

      In other news, my mechanic’s “opinion” is that I need my brake pads replaced. I’m thinking now that he must be wrong because his knowledge is limited to what he’s been taught and he stands to gain by charging me to do the job and also making a profit on the parts he’s recommending – parts that were made by engineering companies that want you to believe that only mechanically-engineered products can be used to stop your car (Fred Flintstone used his feet but that method is suppressed because it can’t be patented so you won’t even find mention of it in modern automotive books… although, maybe on whale.to).

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Sue

        This is very funny. Well done.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
      • Jane DJ

        Duly plagarised and used as ammo on AVN’ers, thanks Andy.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
    • Dr Justine

      Well in emergency where I work- when a child has a cardiac arrest from drowning and is brought in with CPR in progress- my opinion (or guess) about what to do is the only chance this child has. It is based on experience and education and while you certainly have the right to question my practice, you do not have the right to interfere in my treatment of the child unless you are a greater authority with more experience and more education- your thoughts are welcome, your interference is not. Same with vaccination- let the people with the knowledge and experience get on with their job and stop interfering unless you are willing to do the hard yards and get to their level or beyond. I do wonder why the ant-vax nutters don’t go and do microbiology or infectious disease degrees…or maybe I don’t.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Funkhouse

      Who is this Dr. Because? They sound like a quack.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  12. Mumfi

    I am the mother of a toddler recently diagnosed with autism and global developmenatl delay. I watched the discussion on sky news regarding vaccination. I have a science degree and have worked in the medical laboratory field for 16 years both in Australia and the UK.
    My son was given all his vaccinations and has not missed any. He was a healthy baby boy that was breast fed and was given and still is given all the love, affection, toys, home cooked meals a mother could give.
    He has non regressive autism which means it was present from when he was a baby rather than the regressive autism that rears around 18 months. He is our only child and we accept his condition although the $30000 per year we have to pay in early intervention and the sleep, dietary, behavioural aspect is hard to take at times.

    I am not anti vaccination but I do have a question, why is hep b vaccine given to newborn babies? I never had this vaccine until I started working in hospitals and it was compulsory if you are exposed to blood and body fluid. I have a high titre level or immunity to hep b and from what our paediatrican has told us, it is only necessary to vaccinate your child for hep b if you are a carrier.
    so another question is if pertussis or whooping cough is raging ( and I know because it is one of many tests I perform at work) then why isn’t this given to newborn babies? They are more likely to die from this than hep b.
    That is the science…..

    My son was given hep b at birth that did contain mercury. The reason is contains mercury is because it is an antibacterial and antifungal agent that prevents contamination when the ampoule is used for several babies.
    This vaccine is “shared” like the swine flu was when it was released to save money so it was pierced several times and this allows air to get in.

    If only they would create the ampoule for each child. You see, before you administer the hep b vaccine it must be mixed many times to create a homogeneous solution and most of the time the nurse/ Dr doesn’t mix it for long enough. If your child id the unlucky one to get the last dose, then guess what- you are going to get the highest concentration of mercury in your vaccination.

    One last point form a scientist in the medical field, most of the studies/ research that has been done to PROVE autism is not linked to vaccines is usually funded by pharmaceutical companies -they are the ones with all the money.

    As I said before I am not anti vaccine but I do question why unnecessary vaccines are given to babies. Autism is genetic but there is environmental assaults in the body of these beautiful children that have been through so much. Even the smallest amount of mercury can have a detrimental outcome, until you live with a child with autism you have no idea the hardship and grief that never goes away.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Deb

      The recommended Hep B birth dose does not have thiomersal, I don’t know why hospitals would choose to use the other when it is not recommended. In fact according to the state schedules, the NT is the only state/territory using Engerix B (the one with thiomersal), all other states use H-B-Vax II (without thiomersal) which does come in single-use syringes. I don’t know why the NT use it, it’s possibly to do with remoteness and storage issues or historical. Although at the same time, the dose of thiomersal in Engerix-B is less than 1 millionth of a gram, which is vanishingly small. http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/Handbook-hepatitisb

      The reason newborn babies are given a birth dose of Hep B is because the earlier they are infected, the greater their chance of developing chronic disease and the greater their chance of that developing into cirrhosis and cancer.

      Unfortunately Hep B is tricky – it can take 6 months between infection and testing positive and infection can be asymptomatic so people don’t even know they have it. So testing women during pregnancy is not definitive even if they test negative. Plus mothers are the most common source of infection, but not the only one. Other carriers within the household can infect babies – infections can come through saliva or other secretions, it is NOT just a sexually transmitted disease.

      Australia originally began only targeting high risk groups. Then the NT, which has many high risk people, began vaccinating all babies. This was so much more successful than the targeted program that the recommendation was changed to all Australian babies. It’s not through some sort of laziness of not wanting to test everyone or not wanting to embarrass high risk people – it’s because not all cases are in high risk groups and the evidence from the NT showed that it was safer for babies.

      You will be pleased to know there is currently an Australian trial of birth doses of pertussis vaccine, although a birth dose only was only effective for IgG response in 43% of cases and a dose at birth and 1 month was effective for IgG in 88% of cases. http://journals.lww.com/pidj/Abstract/2010/03000/Acellular_Pertussis_Vaccine_at_Birth_and_One_Month.6.aspx
      There are also trials underway in the US of maternal vaccination, which is certainly easier in terms of trying to get babies in for appointments and may be more effective.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Sue

        Just to clarify what Deb said: Mumfi asked why Hep B vaccine is given to newborns – the reason is to prevent so-called “vertical transmission” (ie from mother to baby). That’s why Deb has said that the test can be negative in the early stages of the disease, so screening the mothers isn’t 100% reliable.

        Mumfi – it must be distressing for you to read conspiracy theories about autism while struggling to raise your child to the best of your ability. I suggest steering away from the conspiracy-websites and getting support form places like Austism Spectrum Australia – where people are interested in supporting children rather than spreading misinformation about vaccines.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • mumfi

          I havent read any conspiracy websites. I have only looked at the product insert from the drug companies that make the hep b vaccine. The Dr I spoke to specialises in autism and developmental delay. I only form my opinions based on what I have researched from published scientific papers and from what the drug companies declare in their product description.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
          • Grendel

            Mumfi,

            I also am the parent of a child with Autism and when we recieved the diagnosis I spent extensive time reading all I could about the condition and theories of cause.

            Naturally mercury got many mentions online, but the neurological differences that underlie autism also have a clear genetic relationship – as you acknowledge. However, if there is an environmental trigger (and this is possible) then it will be most likely one that occurs in-utero, not after birth since the neurological development in which the differences become apparent have already occurred by the time of birth.

            You claim to be a scientist but you make unsubstantiated, and in fact demonstrably erroneous statements such as “Even the smallest amount of mercury can have a detrimental outcome”.

            Humans are exposed to a wide range of toxins in the environment around us. Some of these occur naturally and others as a result of human industrial activity. To much of many, or a wicked combination can indeed have a negative effect but to claim that “any amount can have a detrimental effect” is just wrong. You have mercury in you right now, as does your child. Mercury that you inhaled, ingested or absorbed, but your body evolved in an environment where toxins were always present and generally does a pretty good job of metabolising or excreting these.

            It is only when there is too much that you encounter detrimental effects – obviously for a child the dose is much smaller, and the type of mercury encountered is also important – ie ethyl versus methyl mercury.

            Autism is not mercury poisoning, nor is vaccination the trigger for autism. I wish it were – I would then have an answer and a pathway to reducing the impact of my son’s neurological differences.

            Reading and researching are not the same thing – I think you know this but have been swayed by less-than-objective reports. Step back from being a parent and become an objective researcher – evaluate honestly and think critically.

            It wont change your child’s autism but it will assist you to better evaluate therapies that might assist. Many parents have spent a lot of money on biomedical treatments that at best do nothing and at worst cause significant harm.

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
            • Sue

              Grendel – thank you for such an eloquent and rational post!

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
            • mumfi

              Grendel,
              I won’t take offence to your statement of me claiming to be scientist, it is not worth justifying my qualifications and experience.

              I am surprised that you say you are a parent of a child with autism and yet you make NO reference to the gut brain link and autism. There have been several papers published and books written by Dr’s that prove that even the smallest amount of toxins can behave differently in the bodies of children with autism compared to the normal population. Their bodies are not efficient at removing heavy metals from the body- that is why some embark on chelation therapy. This is why some Dr’s recommend hair analysis and urine/blood tests for mercury, copper, lead etc. My child had to be tested recently for all of these.

              So I am surprised you have not mentioned the link in children with autism with altered methylation pathways etc.

              The sarcastic comments on this website like “better not eat seafood” are dissapointing. It’s all very well for everyone to get smart and say comments like that. You try doing 30 hrs aba therapy a week(look that one up on google). You try making your child have a gluten free casein free diet, endless occupational therapy, speech therapy, physiotherapy appointments. MRI scans, EEG tests, blood tests, special needs playgroups, i can go on and on. We won’t mention the sleep issues, nappies when they should be ready for preschool, sensory issues….

              For the people that think that it is certain there is no link between autism and vaccines, well think again, Nothing is 100% certain. I don’t know what else in addition caused our child’s autism. Maybe it was a cold I got when I was pregnant, maybe the phenol reagent I was exposed to when pregnant, maybe the years and years of exposure to polyacrylamide/agarose gels to run pcr products on (oh that is what some scientists do by the way). Maybe it was the temed, the ethidium bromide, the guanidine reagents I was using while pregnant???

              I will never know, but I NEVER ever dismiss anyone’s theory because one day you may all be surprised what the answer might be. Don’t be too sure that it isn’t vaccines, we still don’t have all the answers.

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
      • mumfi

        By the way, my child was given the engerix b vaccine (as is in the blue book we were given). We live in the ACT, so it is not just the NT it is used….

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • Deb

          You’re right. I can only find an old copy of the ACT schedule but it lists both H-B-Vax II and Engerix B. How strange, I wonder why the two territories have continued using it.

          Possibly because the level of mercury in it is comparable to the level of mercury already present in a newborn baby’s blood – http://www.scielo.br/pdf/csp/v23s4/14.pdf

          Obviously this will vary around the world because it depends on the level in the mother’s blood which comes from environmental exposure. But it is a demonstration that our bodies pick up all sorts of things we don’t even realise are around us, and are quite capable of dealing with such tiny amounts.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
        • rukia

          mumfi, you might be offended by someone pointing out that you claim to be a scientist but your statement doesn’t seem like that of a scientist but I have to agree. I am a scientist and my thoughts as I was reading your comments were that you mustn’t be a very good one. You probably are a very good one in your job but right now you’re exhausted and probably over whelmed by the dodgy information out there. There is no link between vaccines and autism. At all. That theory has well and truly been flogged by researchers all over the world and it is dead. As far as I’m concerned, the culmination of that theory came when Andrew Wakefield had his paper retracted and lost his medical licence.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
        • Grendel

          mumfi, My dig was not at your qualifications – Which I am certain are valid, but at your approach, which is remarkably unscientific.

          You are quite correct is stating that there may be an environmental as well as genetic factor – this is widely acknowledged, but your own exposure to reagents does not explain the autism in shildren who’s mothers had no exposure to the same chemicals.

          I also sympathise with the endless round of therapy sessions.

          I was surprised to hear you mention chelation however. and the gut-brain link, based on wakefield’s paper, which was scientific fraud.

          There have been several studies examining the prevalence of gastro-intestinal abnormality within cohorts of children with autism using control groups of neurotypical children. there is no statistically significant difference between the two.

          As for chelation – blood tests using artificial baselines like the ones used by DAN doctors in the US make a mockery of medicine and science.

          Chelation is dangerous and unnecessary and represents a form of experimentation on a child.

          When your child was tested – did you get to choose which lab did the test or was one designated. What were the results and how do they compare with other children who do not have autism?

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
    • Faybian

      We never used to give hepB from a shared vial. We gave it from a single dose only vial that did not need reconstituting. That was in may 2000, when it was first released. At first we gave engerix, but then went to HB vax.
      Better not have any seafood either, because of the mercury.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  13. Bec

    Geez, the more I read these comments, I realise how the world is full of strange, selfish people who have no regard for the health and wellbeing of other people around them……I have to stop reading this page!!!!

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  14. Becca

    The article was great. Thanks. But it didn’t change my mind about vaccination. Just one hesitation is strong enough for me.

    I wasn’t vaccinated, largely due to the fact that, as you noted in the article, vaccines can give you the disease that is being vaccinated for. Though the likelihood is small, it’s happened. Human error and the fallibility of medical science will always exist. The risk may be small, but the consequences are large, if the the error is realised. And in that instance, the risk is lower were a child not to be vaccinated. That part is not opinion. The ‘mistakes were made’ explanation, I think, means little to the children who were given Polio through accident, and poor chemistry.

    That reason, in and of itself, is quite a legitimate one to inform not vaccinating, even when stood next to the weight of evidence ‘for’ vaccination. Medical science is beyond great, from most perspectives. But it’s certainly not infallible. You may trust the application of medicine 100%, and though I would not agree with your reasoning if you do, I’d try not to berate you if you did. :)

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Kris2040

      Where does Dr Dunlop say that vaccines give you the disease you’re getting vaccinated for? Thanks in advance.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Sue

      Becca, I don’t think you will come across a clinician who says 100% about anything. Nobody has ever claimed that any orthodox medical treatment was 100% effective or 100% safe – humans don’t work that way.

      On the other hand, I’m astounded by your logic twist. You would rather not be protected from an infection because some vaccines have a TINY risk of giving you the infection. Against the real risk of just getting the infection anyway. Have I missed something in your reasoning?

      You may know that polio has essentially disappeared from wealthy western societies, because a huge proportion of the population is vaccinated against it. WHere are all those cases of polio that people got from the vaccine?

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Jane DJ

      Really, you are basing this on the fact that 60 years ago there was once a mistake in the polio vaccine manufacturing process. 60 years ago? Do you base all your medical decisions on events that happened 60 years ago?

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Deb

      Have a look around you at the measles outbreaks in NZ, the US and Europe. So many unvaccinated people ill, and none of them caught it from the vaccine.

      The only people who talk about 100% are anti-vaxxers who claim that’s what is needed before they will vaccinate, which is what you are essentially doing here.

      I often wonder how those people get on with not driving, walking, using bathrooms and kitchens or even drinking water, because none of those things are 100% guaranteed either. I would say it must be an interesting life, except I think it’s probably rather boring never doing anything.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • kathym

      In the 1950s in America there was a spate of cases of polio caused by the vaccine, but this was due to a mistake in the manufacturing process and was quickly corrected.

      The good news is Becca, we don’t live in America, it’s no longer the 50′s and you are welcome to catch up with the rest of vaccinated Australia, knowing that your fears are overstated and unfounded:

      From this link:

      http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Polio_immunisation?open

      The polio vaccine
      Before November 2005, the oral (given by mouth) polio vaccine was routinely provided in Australia. This vaccine contains small amounts of weakened live poliovirus. In rare cases (about one in every 2.5 million doses), it can cause paralysis (vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis, or VAPP).

      In November 2005, an inactivated polio vaccine (IPV) replaced the oral vaccine (OPV) in Australia. This vaccine is given by injection, rather than by mouth, and does not cause vaccine-associated paralysis.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Ken Wood

      Becca, your comment was great. Thanks. But it didn’t change my mind about going outside. I don’t think you should go outside at all: a meteorite might fall on your head. Just one hesitation should be strong enough for you.

      I don’t go outside, largely due to the fact that, as I noted above, a meteorite could fall on my head. Though the likelihood is statistically very very small, it’s happened. Human error and the fallibility of statistics will always exist. The risk may be small, but the consequences are large, if the error is realised. And in that instance, the risk is lower were I not to go outside. That part is not opinion. The ‘mistakes were made’ explanation, I think, means little to the people who had meteorites fall on their head through accident, and poor statistics.

      That reason, in and of itself, is quite a legitimate one to inform not going outside, even when stood next to the weight of evidence ‘for’ going outside. The field of statistics is beyond great, from most perspectives. But it’s certainly not infallible. You may trust the application of statistics 100%, and though I would not agree with your reasoning if you do, I’d try not to berate you if you did.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Lisa B

        Oh no Ken! You didn’t check – I believe that the statistics suggest odds are equally likely that it could fall on your house. Please consider moving to a cave dwelling, post haste!

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
    • Andy

      I know what you mean. I read an article last year about people who’ve died after they got tangled in the strings of their parachutes. I found it astonishing that they died as a result of taking what many would consider an obvious precaution. They died using something intended to keep them safe.

      Even when weighed up against all the evidence “for” parachutes, they’re manufacture is beyond great and that is enough reason to inform against their use.

      If I ever jump out of a plane, there’s no way I’ll use a parachute – those things can kill you. And that’s a fact.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • sianmorton

      Becca, it is fine to have reservations. You just need to be sure that these reservations are valid. The vaccination schedule protects against a range of diseases, many of which were common childhood diseases of past generations. Although serious complications and death from many of these diseases was uncommon, it did occur, and it occurred far, far more commonly than any risks associated with vaccination. If everybody made decisions about vaccination using your rationale this country would return to the days where children suffered permanent brain damage, chronic respiratory illness, scarring, deafness, infertility and death from vaccine preventable diseases. No one is claiming that vaccines are 100% safe or 100% effective, and medicine is certainly not infallible, but the best available evidence strongly supports vaccination.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Andy

        Becca appears to be applying Mery Dorey’s favourite fallacy – the Nirvana Fallacy – in which reality is compared with unrealistic alternatives.

        So, if a vaccine isn’t absolutely 100% safe and absolutely 100% effective, then the vaccine is dangerous and doesn’t work – at all.

        I can’t imagine this “just one hesitation” concern is widely applied in other areas of day to day life because, as others have suggested, life would be impossible. Life, from conception to senility and beyond, carries risks. Everything is risky.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
    • Grendel

      Becca – you need to return to your own arguement of risk. Compare the risks of vaccinating to the risks of the disease. Measles for example has a risk of ear infections, pneumonia, fits or convulsions, croup, inflammation of the brain (encephalitis). In its most severe form a late complication can occur and result in “subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE)”, which causes progressive brain damage and nearly always results in death.

      2 in 1000 children who acquire measles will get encephalitis. Compared with 1 in 1,000,000 who receive the vaccine. These are horribly unequal risks that weigh heavily in favour of vaccination. As a parent I have learned to be very careful not to fall into the trap of being afraid to take an action that carries a small risk as opposed to doing nothing and feeling as if I am taking no risk at all when in fact doing nothing has the greater risk.

      A very good aid to decision making and understanding risk can be found here: http://www.ncirs.edu.au/immunisation/education/mmr-decision/measles.php

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Sue

        Well put, Grendel. In old Catholic doctrine, there was a dichotomy described as “sins of omission” vs “sins of commission”. In other words, you could be held responsible for the results of NOT acting, as well as for acting.

        We seem to have forgotten this balance in more recent times. Just doing nothing does not absolve you of responsiblity for the result.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
  15. kathym

    MC writes “With all due respect, how about all those in previous generations who survived without vaccines? That is called survival of the fittest, right? That’s what nature is supposed to do?”

    If this wasn’t such a serious matter, I would allow myself a little chuckle at the irony of your statement and decision. But your interpretation of Darwin’s theory is not correct. And your decision not to vaccinate, when you really can, affects the entire population, not just your little microcosm.

    Survival of the fittest is also about evolution. Darwin meant it as a metaphor for “better adapted for immediate, local environment”, not your inference that it means “in superior physical shape”.

    “Fittest” does not refer to whether an individual is “physically fitter” – bigger, faster or stronger – or “better”. It refers to a difference in reproductive rate from one generation to the next.

    Interpreting “survival of the fittest” to mean “only the fittest organisms will prevail” is not consistent with the actual theory of evolution. Any individual organism which succeeds in reproducing itself is “fit” and will contribute to survival of its species, not just the “physically fittest” ones, though some of the population will be better adapted to the circumstances than others.

    Okay then anti-vaxxers. Who is better adapted to the local immediate environment when an infectious disease outbreak occurs?

    My first thought is to say game on, let’s allow that to happen, allow you to see first hand how your egotistical, superiority complex views play out in a real-life situation. But then I think of the cancer patients, the newborn babes, the elderly and each and every human being is someone else’s loved one. These are whom you are also endangering.

    Google research does not equal insight, prevention or reality. Vaccination science does. And you are right about one thing, nature will prevail every time.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Kris2040

      Would an anti person who perished from a vaccine preventable disease be eligible for a Darwin award? I think yes.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • kathym

        I would say definitely yes Kris!

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • Snorris

          Only if they didn’t reproduce first!

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
      • Sue

        I would say no, but their parents might be.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
    • MrPopularSentiment

      Not to mention that while nature may not care if my son “isn’t fit enough,” I sure as hell do. Humans evolved awesome brains so that we wouldn’t have to subject to the unfeeling march of nature. Why on earth would we want to deny that part of our heritage in favour of brute animalism?

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Deb

      And let’s not forget that it wouldn’t be the anti-vaxxers who suffered in this scenario – it would be their innocent children who have never had a choice. Ironically, almost all anti-vaxxers are vaccinated because their parents had them done as children, so they are safe from the risks they are forcing on their children.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  16. Sally

    Why must I vaccinate my cats and provide proof of said vaccination before a boarding kennel will take them in. Yet, non-vaccinated children are allowed into schools and day cares??? Where is the fairness?? Do we put more care into our pets health?

    Thank you Mamamia for such a great article. I definitely will be sharing this.

    I’m tired of all the bogus websites and dodgy scientists and new age health ‘gurus’ spouting crap about immunisations and how bad they are. Anyone only has to look at some South African countries and then look at Australia to see how good they are (vaccinations.)

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Kris2040

      There actually are nutters who don’t vaccinate their pets and/or farm animals.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Guy

        My cat got vaccinated and the next year was run over by a car – This is the quality of the logic and evidence that the anti-vaccination people seem to be using, just thought I’d give it a go, how can thisw not just feel plain wrong to them?

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
    • Em

      +1 – well said, Sally!

      I’m worried that when Mr 18months is ready for school, there’ll be the child of some nutty anti-vaxxers in his class, who will get sick, get the other children of anti-vax parents sick, and then my little Mr will get horribly sick.

      I’m ALMOST tempted to home school, because I’m not comfortable with the idea of crazy people putting my childs health at risk.

      They need to look at making vaccination compulsary for your child to attend school, methinks.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  17. Anonymous

    Just want to say that my child has had all his vaccinations even though everytime one was due it there was fear of what reaction he would have, would he get autism etc and the thought of just not getting it done was on my mind.
    Looking back to when i was a child my parents rushed to have us kids vaccinated as they had lived through the times of polio and measles and these vaccines were like a miracle to them as both had lost siblings to dieases which are preventable today.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  18. kass hall

    to those who maintain their “rights”:

    what is your equal responsibility?

    How does you exercising your “right” impact on those around you and your child? I mean really impact – those you know and those you randomly come into contact with.

    Now, think about your decision again.

    And think about how my “right” to live in a SAFE environment (as a cancer patient) goes up side by side with your “right” to not vaccinate. Whose right overrides whose if they cannot cohabitate?

    Now, think about your decision again.

    And if you STILL dont vaccinate, you are a selfish a-hole.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Andy

      This reminds me of the days, not so long ago, when people who “enjoyed a smoke with their meal” argued their right to smoke in restaurants. As long as they were happy, no one else mattered.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • RichardJ

      Your analogue is dead on.

      How about my right to decide whether I wash my hands after going to the toilet. Sure it’s obvious that we are all meant to do it, but I’ve worked with people that didn’t, thus putting my life at risk. Deciding not to vaccinate it exactly the same.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Kris2040

      Kass, it’s really frightening how many people find the “With rights come responsibilities” concept foreign. Seriously, every time I’ve brought it up (usually in regard to immunisation, but it has happened with other stuff as well), someone has said “Oh, that’s a really good point – I’ve never heard that or thought of things that way”. WTF??? HOW is this a foreign concept to people?

      Someone mentioned they are usually touchy feely hippies – yeah, until you question their lack of logic or suggest (rightly) that they are being selfish and riding on everyone else’s herd immunity. Then watch them go. You’re right, complete a-holes.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  19. Tarzan

    I think that the vaccination “debate” is the ultimate first world problem. Imagine you are a mother in a third world country with no access to vaccinations for your babies, who have a good chance of dying from a communicable disease that could be prevented with a vaccine. You would be horrified to think that we are even having this discussion.
    We have vaccines that work. We have a plethora of scientific information that confirms they are safe. We have a responsibility to our children, the children of others and the vulnerable members of our society to protect them where we can.
    Show some respect to those who have dedicated their lives to researching and providing us with lifesaving vaccines and show some respect to the families that have lost children to vaccine preventable illnesses. Vaccinate yourselves and your children.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  20. Mel Coen

    With all due respect, how about all those in previous generations who survived without vaccines? That is called survival of the fittest, right? That’s what nature is supposed to do? When I have my kids, I won’t vaccinate them and I KNOW they’ll be stronger because of it! But that’s my choice and i respect all of you guys choices.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • rossumch

      I’m astonished that any mother would play Russian roulette with her own children… But a decision that you think you make for just your own children might cause someone else’s child to die.. The most vulnerable are the small babies that are not vaccinated yet and get infected by your unvaccinated children, who are carriers of the disease.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • kass hall

      survival of the fittest hey?

      I guess me having cancer four times is because I was vaccinated, huh? Or maybe I just don’t deserve to live under your theory.

      Uhuh.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Deb

      And you’ll have so much fun out there around the fire wearing the skins you killed, processed and cured yourselves!

      Firstly, nature does not mean good – tetanus, diptheria and cyclones are all natural.

      Secondly – to claim to do things naturally on a computer over the internet is just a little ridiculous. How do you decide which things nature got right and which it got wrong? You have obviously decided many, many technological advances are good, such as electricity and running water. So why not others?

      Thirdly – your argument is fallacious. Just because some people survived does not mean many didn’t die. Consider something like a clam that produces literally thousands of young so that a handful may survive. And yet they are still with us and doing well.
      Of course we don’t know much about the children who died – they didn’t leave descendants to mourn them. We all know the success stories because they went on to become our great-grandparents and grandparents. Visit an old cemetery and look at the ages and causes of death on the headstones, especially the ones who have 4 or 5 kids from the same family. Then think how strong their immune systems must have been from not having vaccines and having those good natural diseases.

      And finally as an evolutionary biologist ‘survival of the fittest’ is such a badly used phrase. It’s about who has the most grandkids and about having an advantage in the current environment you live in, not about some idealised past natural environment. In our western computer using, hospital having society vaccines make basically no difference in evolutionary terms. They only make a difference to the poor kids who are sick or the devastated families left behind.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Mia

      Mel,
      Your appalling level of ignorance is outweighed only by your shocking arrogance. Just.
      Go watch this: http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/mamamia-on-sky-news-episode-11-vaccination-debates-real-victims/
      and at the 12:50 minute mark, you will meet a family who lost their baby because of people who chose not to vaccinate.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • rainbow

      “mel” is well known to MM as someone who writes absurd and contentious comments in random posts. i personally would not give her any more of your time.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Andy

        Glad I read this comment as my gut feeling was “Poe’s Law in action!” but was prepared to respond anyway.

        In short though (just in case), if Mel thinks that children are somehow made stronger by dying, she has seriously misunderstood the meaning of “survival of the fittest”.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
      • Lisa

        Unfortunately there are some incredibly sad, pathetic people in this world – the ying and yang… Some get a kick out of getting people all rilled up, incredibly sad, sad, sad people what a sad pathetic existence Mel, good luck in life!!! …
        For my input this is how uneducated and pathetic comments like this are… survival of the fittest was declared by Charles Darwin and he also believed in evolution so by that if something evolved and that meant inventions too we may use them ie vaccinations… if the Northern Indigneous of Australia traded a new remedy for something to those on the Torres Straight and it worked they would continue to use it – they were not as one minded as some of us Mel, to stop the evolution of the human race beacuse its not what they used yesterday!!!

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • Andy

          It’s like I said to someone running a similar “we didn’t do it and we survived” argument elsewhere in the comments section…

          Just because some people get hit by a bus and survive, that does not mean that getting hit by a bus is advisable.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
    • Di Cherrie

      omg your ignorance and arrogance is appalling, this is my baby after she got whooping cough from my 13 year old (immunised) from an unimmunised child at school, 1 of only 2 children unimmunised in a school of one thousand. I was told he contracted whooping cough because his vaccine had weaned. These luckily were the only two children who contracted whooping cough, unfortunately there was a newborn in my home who could not escape this preventable disease. My baby at 6 weeks of age, went blue, then grey as she stopped breathing from coughing so badly, this happened daily many times every hour, she fought for her life and was one of the lucky ones. As a parent there is nothing we could do to help her, we knew the cough was coming, we never knew when, or if she would make it through the next cough. Your decision to be so ignorant also impacts other peoples children.

      For anyone else, the first pic is my daughter too young to be immunised on CPAP, forcing air to make her breathe in the rescusitation room, the second pic is her in the ICU and the third pic is her now. This is not scare tactics in anyway or form, this is truth in the face, exactly what this preventable disease did. 1 in 200 babies die, 7 Australian babies are dead over the last two years, more are left with lung and/or brain damage. My daughter was extremely lucky, unfortunately she has been left with lung damage that is manageable.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Lisa66

        I’m so sorry this happened to your baby. I just don’t understand how those who are anti-vaccination can’t see the harm they are causing to others, like your poor little girl. I hope she doesn’t suffer too badly from the damage done to her lungs.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • Di Cherrie

          Thanks Lisa, luckily it is asthma she will definately have, most likely manageable, but we really don’t know until she grows. She also got bronchiolitus, which is attributed to her having whooping cough at such a young age. She is doing very well now, just little, she does look cute walking as little as she is :o )

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
    • RichardJ

      Interesting comments Mel. Given you are happy for “nature” to take it’s course, would you also be happy to accept that your future offspring are not going to be the ones strong enough to survive Whooping Cough without a vaccination??? You assume they will be strong, but what’s your basis for that belief? Your own good health??

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • MrPopularSentiment

      And if your children are found lacking? Will you still be so smug the day you get to see your still child in a casket? It breaks my heart to see how a parent (or a potential one) could be so cavalier about her child’s life…

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Funkhouse

      Does utilising up to date research and technologies to protect us from preventable illness not make us the fitter generation? That expression doesn’t simply refer to an individuals ability to shrug off smallpox.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  21. Kate

    Every parent should know that the choice to vaccinate is their own, just like the right to choose how and where they give birth. Scare tactics do not work – pro vaccination, like this article or anti vaccination. The choice is yours Mummas!

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Mia

      Kate – there are no scare tactics here. Just science.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Renee

        Mia there is plenty of science for anti vax if you choose to look. I find it amazing how you and your staff (pretty sure they all don’t have children either) are pretty aggressive against those who choose not too. Did you give your children hep b? If so why? Are your needle user!? Promiscuous? As people who question vaccination these are relevant questions? Sure vaccination has decreased some diseases but certainly increased others. Western medicine is new, there are other medicine applications (Eg TCM) that are ancient and effective, surely it’s not all based on bullshit? Science is not the be all, not everything is explainable or should it be. Everyone has the right to choose what is right for them and their family whether it be about vaccination, religion etc. What do you say to the parents whose children will never be the same because of a needle? Your only response seems to be – get your booster, get your children vaccinated, this is science. Blah. This is not an easy decision as a parent to make.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • Shane

          Transmission of Hep B to infants from infected mothers during the delivery process is a recognised risk group. Hep B may be asymptomatic for months so the mother may be unaware of even having it.
          As to your other claims. Citations please, especially for “science for anti vax” and your claim that vaccination has increased the risk of certain diseases and that TCM is effective. Otherwise it just sounds like you’re making stuff up.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
          • reneehartley

            Shane have you ever tried TCM? Homeopathy? Acupuncture? Absolutely not placebo’s! Do you think Placebo’s work on 6month olds?

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
            • HiEv

              Well, considering that it’s the *parents* that report the child’s subjective state in the (worthless) anecdotal evidence that supports your claim, then yes, placebos work on the parents even though it’s the baby getting those worthless treatments.

              There is a vast scientific literature that has examined those things using double-blind placebo controlled studies and objective measures of health, and the vast majority of those studies show that those “treatments” are no better than placebo.

              In other words, they’re all worthless.

              Think I’m wrong? Let’s see a peer reviewed scientific literature review of numerous papers that backs up your argument. I’ll bet you can’t find one.

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
            • Sullivanthepoop

              Acupuncture is a strong risk factor for Hep B. I hope all those who seek acupuncture for their children also vaccinated them against Hep B at birth.

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
          • rukia

            Something that was pointed out on another blog that I regularly read is that you don’t know if any other child (that will come into contact with your child) has been infected with Hep B. Children play, sometimes they get hurt, they fall, they scrape their knees and its entirely possibly that a child could come into contact with another child’s blood, etc. My brother fell over at school and ended up with stitches, needless to say there was a lot of blood that his friends could have touched and if he had been infected with Hep B, they could have been infected also. I know its not a simple as that especially when taking viral load following treatment into account but still they could have recently been infected themselves and not be on treatment. The point is you have no control over other people including other kids and the only way to protect your kids is a) wrap them in cotton wool and not let them have contact with anyone else or b) vaccinate.
            If anyone on here even so much as hints that parents should be told when a child that has a blood borne disease is enrolled at their school, then you truly are an a-hole. Even kids with head lice are not named or identified in any way.

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
        • Kris2040

          “Science is not the be all, not everything is explainable or should it be”. Would you mind passing this on to the “MY kid GOT AUTISM!!!! from VACCINES!!!!” anti-vax crowd then? Because they seem to have missed this memo.
          I completely understand wanting something or someone to blame for something like autism, but I can’t help thinking that if they put their energy into fundraising for autism research and early intervention work, rather than stupid signs to assuage their guilt and scaring people unnecessarily, they might be happier.

          Oh, and TCM? The only discrediting is coming from you, linking it to being unexplainable and considered bullshit. I use acupuncture and massage, and that has never been scoffed at by any “western” doctor.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
          • Kris2040

            Oh, and I think any practitioner of TCM would probably be pretty pissed off to hear their science dismissed as unexplainable and something you just have to believe in for it to work.
            Similarly I think you’d be pretty hard pressed to find a “western” doctor who doesn’t acknowledge the place in treatements that things like acupuncture and herbals have – how about opium for starters?

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
            • reneehartley

              I completely support TCM, Homeopathy etc but there are plenty of non believers out there. Plenty of people doing everything in their power to dismiss these modalities as nothing more than placebo’s. I was saying surely they are not based on bullshit and yes there is science (but still plenty of people who don’t believe the science) I was making a point about everyone here referring to the science behind vax, it doesn’t mean you have to believe in it and there are always two sides. I have had absolutely wonderful results with these modalities. I completely believe in the “First do no harm” but I can’t say the same for plenty of doctors out there, lets look at the antibiotic debacle, penicillin an amazing find, the overuse an absolute travesty. I am not anti vax, but I believe in choice’s. I really don’t think you will be hard pressed to find a western doctor who dismisses acupuncture etc, you obviously haven’t looked hard. I have chosen which vaccinations we deem as a family to be important. It’s like with climate change – there are scientists who are 100 % for it and others who are 100% against it. Just as with vaccinations there are plenty of health professionals who are for it and plenty who aren’t. Regarding Heb B, pretty sure the gestation period of a human is approx 10 months all up, plenty of time to be tested for Hep B. We don’t need our newborns babies first experience in life to be a jab of toxins. In fact I deem it absolutely irresponsible.

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
            • Shane

              TCM (traditional Chinese medicine) ain’t science. If it was it would just be called medicine. Acupuncture is no better than a placebo. Vaccines are science and they do work.

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
            • Kris2040

              Disagree, Shane. I think your dismissal of methods that do work for some things is as bad as the AV dismissal of Big Pharma.

              Just as I think Renee talking about “believing in a methodology working” discredits the actual good that comes from traditional methodologies. It isn’t something to believe in or not, it can be proved to be effective. Unlike sugar water to vaccinate.

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
        • Andy

          The science of meteorology is new. There are other theories of weather (eg Thor) that are ancient and plausible, surely it’s not all based on bullshit?

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
    • Deb

      The choice to vaccinate is a parent’s, but they are only acting on behalf of their children. One of the most disturbing threads in many internet discussions of both vaccination and other things (including birth since you bring it up) is this idea of ‘parents’ rights.’

      How do parents have rights? Surely they don’t have any rights at all, but only responsibilities on behalf of their children? Because vaccination, by and large, does not affect parents – the majority of non-vaccinating parents were actually vaccinated as children. It is about children, and a parent’s responsibility to work in their best interests.

      I understand that most anti-vax parents believe they are making the best choices for their children. And that is where the importance of articles like this one come in. Because if you are going to take on the responsibility of deciding that the entire medical, immunological, epidemiological and other scientific professions are wrong, you need to be really, really sure that you are basing your decision on facts and evidence, not myths.

      And contrary to your blithe assertion, fear does work. It works very, very well, which is why people with no evidence to back them up use it.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • rossumch

      I sincerely wished that it was obligatory to vaccinate! I have worked in many developing countries with MSF and have seen the devastating effect of the diseases we are so blessed to have vaccines for. If you have ever seen a child die of tetanus you will talk differently.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Andy

      Would you let your kid play on a busy highway – assuming “scare tactics” like road toll figures don’t work on you?

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • rainbow

        or if not that why not a bit of drink-driving? those dastardly drink-driving ads that are pure scare tactics… again the choice is yours

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
    • Faybian

      Actually the choice of where to give birth is limited in very remote areas. A lot of women have to go to a regional centre at 38 weeks to await birth. There is little other option, unless you wish to free birth, which is foolish to say the least, particularly when you’re 200km from help if needed.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • MrPopularSentiment

      As a parent, I see myself as the steward of my child’s body and mind until he is old enough to make choices for himself. As such, the choice is not “mine” in that I get to do whatever I feel like doing or what suites me, but rather it is my responsibility to make the best possible choices to ensure that my son reaches adulthood safely and happily. Vaccines are a non-issue. I either get them for my son or I fail in my duty as a parent. It’s as simple as that.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Funkhouse

      Yes mummas! The choice to protect your child or let them take their chances with disease!

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  22. Anonymous

    Not sure if this has already been posted, but thought it was relevant to this discussion. This article provides an interesting perspective to the vaccintaion debate.

    http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/life/vaccinations-vexed-link-to-autism-20110914-1k8nm.html

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • anon for this one

      Written by a non-scientist. Dr Rachie actually wrote a reply to this one.

      http://theconversation.edu.au/muddied-waters-setting-the-record-straight-about-mmr-vaccinations-and-autism-3391?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=tweetbutton&utm_campaign=footer

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Andy

      That article would be hilarious if it wasn’t so dumb and dangerous.

      If nothing else sets of alarm bells, his insistence that vaccines are “propelled straight into” the bloodstream “at full strength”, should do it. They aren’t injected into the bloodstream and at what strength would he suggest they should be administered, and why?

      The writer clearly knows almost nothing about vaccines yet volunteers advice to the experts about how they could be made “safer”. Things like…

      “We can change the ingredients (like we did when we removed mercury).”

      Simpe eh? Why not just use, err, sugar? Sugar’s probably safer than alumininium, so why not use that? Or why not Heinz Baby Foods? Kids eat them anyway so they’d be pretty safe in a vaccine. Why not use them instead of, err, formalikihidium and other nasty sounding things with long names?

      Most problems with parachutes occur when the strings tangle. Does this mean parachutes could be made safer by leaving off the strings? I suspect the author of that article might think so.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  23. Ella89

    I don’t understand why people think they are more knowledgeable then the entire scientific community.

    I’m all for questioning authority and not just blindly following others but surely at some point you have to accept the obvious? That googling something doesn’t mean you are right when individuals have actually dedicated their lives to researching it…

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Kate

      Yes Ella89 – individuals have dedicated their lives to research on behalf of drug companies that own. HeLth insurance companies… Of course they want you to vaccinate so that one rare illness is covered at the cost of ruining a healthy immune system and as a result the child gets repeated bouts of middle ear infection, tonsillitis, bronchitis, laryngitis – the child the. Gets dependent on antibiotics and other drugs supplies by said drug company.

      My non immunized children have only been I’ll once – my 9yr old son has only had a middle ear infection once, and my daughter age 8 has only ever been sick once with tonsillitis – they went to regular pre school and public primary schools, they regularly witness their peers dropping like flies with illness every autumn and winter.

      It’s okay not to vaccinate!

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Kass Hall

        jeez, you sound like my aunty. She thinks my oncologist wants me to get cancer again so he doesn’t go “out of business”.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
      • Mia

        No Kate, it’s NOT OK to vaccinate.
        Do you know what it is? Irresponsible.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • Andy

          “No Kate, it’s NOT OK to vaccinate.”

          Oops… I think Mia meant it’s NOT OKAY to NOT vaccinate.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
      • Deb

        So my completely vaccinated eldest daughter so far has 100% attendance at school this year and more than 95% last year.
        She’s never had an ear infection or illness more serious than a cold.
        My youngest hasn’t even been to the doctor since she got over the reflux she was born with.
        Does that mean I ‘win’?

        It’s not about anecdotes and stories. It’s about large groups that can be compared statistically. And the answer is clear – there is no difference in health between vaccinated and unvaccinated children, except for the little fact that unvaccinated children get vaccine preventable diseases, which they then spread to people too young or too sick to be vaccinated.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • RichardJ

          So. I cut myself on a rusty nail on the weekend? Should I get a Tetanus shot or chuck my lot in with nature and see how I go?

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
      • Tarzan

        Riiight so my son got repeated ear infections and tonsilitis because I destroyed his immune system with vaccinations. Lucky I cured his “addiction” to antibiotics by having his tonsils removed. Funny though – my two daughters have never suffered from tonsilitis and ear infections despite being vaccinated, so using your methods of scientific analysis, on that basis the probability that what you’re saying is rubbish seems fairly high to me.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
      • Jane DJ

        So by antivaxer rationale, drug companies should immediately stop making, selling and developing vaccines to focus solely on drugs to treat the consequences of the diseases which would then run rampant through society.

        Well, here is some modelling by a couple of economists to look at that very question. Guess what? They also determined that there is a lot more money in selling treatments than vaccinations.
        http://www.economics.harvard.edu/files/faculty/36_Revenue_Consequences.pdf

        Kind of nixes the “Big Pharma promoting vaccines so they can make more money” rhetoric from the anti-vaxxers, doncha think?!
        (thanks to SAVN for the link)

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • Andy

          We see this “unvaxed kid sare healthier” canard all the time but what does it really mean? What criteria are being used for comparison? Are we even using the same measures of “health”?

          No, we aren’t.

          Here’s something the AVN’s Meryl Dorey wrote on her FB page in March this year…

          “My cousin was diagnosed with lung cancer and died 3 weeks after going into hospital for her first treatment. She went in healthy and never came out.”

          Her cousin, with terminal lung cancer, was healthy.

          Makes you wonder what an unvaxed kid has to suffer before their parents decide they might be unwell.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
      • rainbow

        so in scientific terms regarding likelihood of non-vaccinated children getting sick: n=2

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
      • Sue

        “one rare illness”

        Why can’t you people understand that the illnesses are “rare” because everyone else is vaccinating???????

        I’m finding this whole conversation so frustrating, but at the same time it’s fascinating working out where the mental blocks are. This forum should be studied by health departments so that they can analyse these mental blocks and work out some useful educational programmes.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
      • Sarah in Adealide

        My completely vaccinated six year old who has been at kindergarten and then school for the last two years has had one day off school. And before that I can’t remember the last time he was sick. All three of mine have gone to childcare and again sickness is rare. All of theM experienced normal colds, etc in the first two years of their life but this is normal and is actually a great natural way for them to build immunity. You argument is totally flawed and really all you have thus far is lucky. I hope your luck holds out.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
      • Anon

        What is with this conspiracy theory BS??? Can you please provide valid scientific proof to support your claims that vaccs are ” ruining a healthy immune system and as a result the child gets repeated bouts of middle ear infection, tonsillitis, bronchitis, laryngitis.” My guess is you cannot, as is there isn’t any. Your children have benefited from the fact that the majority of other children are vaccinated.
        Following this post and this comment has made one thing really apparent, parents who vaccinate their children are not egocentric – wake up anti-vaccers, here’s a news flash, it’s not all about you! YOu have a responsibility as a member of a society to not endanger the lives of those around you. Children who are not vaccinated should not be allowed to enter the school system. If you are so concerned about conspiracy theories, how can you trust teachers to not be poisoning your children’s minds?? Home school and keep your children away from the vacc’d kids!

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • Anonymous

          How are people that don’t vaccinate put ‘other’ babies at risk? If you cared so much just vaccinate your own child and move on. Lisa is right, this debate wouldn’t exist if the pro-vaxxers weren’t so bullheaded and snobby.

          Yes we know you are all very good ‘oh-praise-thee’ scientists, and that you think anti-vaxxers are trying to prove against your findings. If you take it personally, you shouldn’t be in this industry.

          Guess what, people ARE entitled to their own decisions, vaccinate your OWN baby and stop trying to force it down the throats of everyone else, because your not doing anyone any favours.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
          • Jane DJ

            And you’re not doing anyone any favours by making multiple identical posts – typical anti-vax tactics.

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
      • Dan Buzzard

        Kate, a child only needs to catch whooping cough once.
        http://danamccaffery.com/openletter.html

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
  24. Lisa

    Some of the comments are very mean. Pro or against.
    There should be a vaccine against being rude, judgemental, condescending putter downer.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Sue

      I feel judgemental towards non-vaccinators because they put other people’s babies at risk. As for ‘condescending’:(ie “displaying a patronizingly superior attitude”?) I feel superior to them because I’m doing the right thing by society and vaccinating, and they’re not. Sometimes when people are wrong it’s their business, and you don’t have the right to say anything. When their wrongness is endangering the lives of others though, you do have the right to say “you’re wrong”. If being told you are wrong feels like a ‘put-down’, too bad. Maybe drink drivers felt like they were being ‘put down’, during the “bloody idiot” campaign? As for being rude, well I believe it is best to avoid this, however I can understand people’s frustration with anti-vaccinators’ ignorant choices endangering everyone else’s children.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • SAVN

        Antivaxers frequently complain that pointing out the factual inaccuracy of their claims, even when done politely, is “disrespectful”.

        They seem to be of the mindset they should be entitled to actively promote misinformation, outright lies and irrational beliefs that result in increased rates of infectious disease without being questioned or challenged at all. Sorry, that just isn’t going to happen.

        Many of these people simply don’t have the mental capacity to participate in even a simple discussion about vaccines. They lack even a rudimentary understanding of concepts from high school chemistry like dilution and dosage, simple statistics and the ability to reason logically.

        For example, Meryl Dorey’s pronouncements on vaccination are frequently riddled with such laughably obvious mistakes that readers are reminded of Sir Belvedere’s muddled reasoning in Monty Python and the Holy Grail:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g

        Initially I think antivaxers like Meryl deserve compassion: our school system has failed them, it hasn’t equipped them with the basic general knowledge and thinking skills required to make sense of our modern world and the technology that surrounds us. Their wild ranting about vaccination can be seen as a cries for help from people living in fear of a world they don’t understand.

        The right approach, at least at first, is to offer education so they can “catch up” to the rest of us. Fear evaporates once they have understanding.

        However there is a small, vocal minority – like Meryl Dorey – who remain determinedly, willfully ignorant despite all attempts to eduate & help them.

        Meryl has had her factual errors and illogical reasoning corrected on many occasions. Rather than admit her mistake and adjust, her response is to delete and/or ignore the correction and continue promoting the same unchanged, incorrect claims. Meryl simply doesn’t want to learn because being ignorant and wrong suits her better.

        In Meryl’s case we can now see that this is likely a pattern of hers that runs across other beliefs and areas of her life as well. In running her organisation she’s run afoul of the NSW Health Care Complaints Commission and laws applying to charity fundraising. In both cases she’s opted not to learn from her mistakes and correct her behaviour, but rather to retreat even further into denial – hence her snowballing legal problems on several fronts.

        Diehard antivaxers like Meryl who persist deliberately in a state of ignorance deserve nothing better than ridicule and to face the full force of the law applied to them when they break it. There’s simply no other way to deal with people like that.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • Lisa

          (different Lisa from above – common name!) Fantastic response SAVN – I have had said before here that I have always had that niggling doubt if I did the right thing to vaccinate beacuse of the fear and guilt campaign that its so distustingly promoted from the ‘Anti-Vaccination Network’ – even though I had the intelligence and sense to research it ALL as best as I could … there were always holes in the anti side of the debate!!!… This article and the mamamia news clip and reading the SAVN facebook page oh and the AVN page for a laugh, have put my mind to rest – I understand that the anti vaccers may take a while – I use to understand where they were coming from but now I just understand that it may take a while to get them to see some sense – so be gentle with them…..

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
        • Andy

          As an example of those high school failings, I’m reminded of the time someone commented to Meryl Dorey…

          “… AN AVERAGE 88 PERCENT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE MUMPS HAVE BEEN FULLY VACCINATED…

          (the commenter used caps, of course, because they’re more compelling!!!)

          Dorey responded…

          “You make an excellent point! With any other form of treatment, failure of the therapy in 88% of those who received it would lead to its withdrawal…”

          Now, if you can’t see the massive error in Dorey’s response, then you are in no position to assess the science behind, well, anything. That’s not necessarily your fault and in general it won’t matter. But if you let mathematically challenged people scare you into making bad decisions because you don’t have a solid grasp of statistics or common logical fallacies, then it does matter. In such cases, you have little choice but to trust the experts or play Russian Roulette.

          For the record, Dorey got it wrong by concluding that if 88% of sufferers were vaccinated, then 88% of vaccinated were sufferers.

          This is syllogism (a logical fallacy) – like saying “if all dogs are animals, then all animals are dogs”. It’s also a major misunderstanding of scientific data.

          It’s difficult to remain polite when someone so apparently ignorant of simple concepts hold themselves up as an expert in reanalysing scientific data. If she can’t get the simple stuff right, what hope does she have with the complicated stuff? The problem is, a lot of people with no better grasp of maths, chemistry or biology, take her word for it that she knows what she’s talking about.

          (oh, and for the record, the 88% figure was, shall we say, not entirely accurate in the first place).

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
          • SAVN

            Meryl is a classic for turning out clangers like that. That’s why following her blog and Facebook page is so entertaining for anyone rational.

            This is the woman who also said:

            “The point here is that the quick test is being used as definitive proof that someone has whooping cough when the false positives are as high as 100%.”

            and

            “1 anecdote is worth more than 1,000 epidemiological studies”.

            More laughs here: http://meryldorey.org

            Since she is considered a leading light of the antivax fringe in Australia, whenever I think of her followers the phrase “room temperature IQ” comes to mind and they’ve so far done nothing to dispel that impression.

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
          • Lisa

            I got it before you explained!!! Oh dear me this is rediculous!!!

            I guess further to my comment is there are some we cannot help but there are those who like me may have or still are swaying or doubting their decision because they have been caught up in the fear campaign from the AVN, we need to be gentle with them…. I think the really scary thing is that most of the comments on the AVN page refer to a bible quote or if you click on their page they support some born again type of redemption type religion – thats scary!!!!

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
            • Sue

              MD also made another blooper in her supposed de-bunking of this discussion – her reporting of Hb concentrations out by a factor of 1000.

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
            • SAVN

              Meryl Dorey has publicly endorsed Scientology on numerous occasions. I guess wacky medical beliefs call for wacky religious beliefs too!

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
      • Anon

        How are people that don’t vaccinate put ‘other’ babies at risk? If you cared so much just vaccinate your own child and move on. Lisa is right, this debate wouldn’t exist if the pro-vaxxers weren’t so bullheaded and snobby.

        Yes we know you are all very good ‘oh-praise-thee’ scientists, and that you think anti-vaxxers are trying to prove against your findings. If you take it personally, you shouldn’t be in this industry.

        Guess what, people ARE entitled to their own decisions, vaccinate your OWN baby and stop trying to force it down the throats of everyone else, because your not doing anyone any favours.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • Jenna

          “You have the same right to choose to vaccinate your child as you do to choose to drive drunk- your actions have the power to affect everyone around you”- paraphrased from Seth Mnookin

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
  25. phoodietweets

    BRILLIANT article Dr Rachel.

    THANK-YOU.

    Also, my deepest DEEPEST sympathies to those families who have lost babies. I cannot imagine. Thank goodness.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  26. Amanda

    Rachael, you are brilliant. You have provided so much useful information in easy to understand language and the way you have followed up the questions/comments with such accurate information has been incredible. Thankyou for all your hard work.

    Mamamia team, this has been a wonderful topic to cover. So important and done in such a great way. I can’t sing your praises enough.

    There is an old saying (about religion, but I think it’s still applicable here): to those who believe no proof is necessary, to those who don’t no proof is possible. Unfortunately the non-believers seem unable to accept facts, even when evidence is so overwhelmingly in favour of vaccines. Even so, I applaud you all for your perseverance in getting the truth out there.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  27. Ally

    When I was pregnant with my first child I was dithering over whether or not to vaccinate until my grandmother made a comment that swayed me “Anyone who could remember how bloody awful polio was would never hesitate”. I thought “good point” and have since proceeded to have all of my children vaccinated.

    Unfortunately, one of my children is immunosuppressed from an unrelated physical abnormality. She is still vaccinated but still ends up catching whatever godawful disease is doing the rounds at the time. This year it was whooping cough.

    Turns out she caught it from a kid at preschool who hadnt been vaccinated and was at school in the early days of the illness when it looked like a cold. His parents used the preschool as day care because day cares in our area won’t accept kids who dont have their vaccinations. So when he was a bit sick, they sent him to school so they could still go to work. While I respect the right of everyone to make the decisions regarding their own children, I really really really wish they wouldnt send them to school when they are even just a little bit sick.

    We do everything we can to keep our daughter as healthy as possible, yet because some parents make these decisions and then send their kids to preschool when they are ‘only a bit sick’ , my daughter still suffers. I wish they would be the ones to sit up with her every night to stop her from choking, to clean up the vomit after she has coughed herself sick and to cope with the aftermath when she has missed 4 weeks of school.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • dkmum

      Oh gosh Ally, I feel for you. Situations like you describe makes me cringe. People can be so selfish.
      Best wishes to you and your girl!

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Lisa J

      I wonder why you can’t try to sue them next time? Maybe actually paying with their wallet for their negligence will give them a bit more to think of. It’s one thing when they can make these ludicrous decisions and somehow escape the consequences with their child surviving intact. If they have to worry about being financially responsible for adverse outcomes they actually might think more seriously about it (and if that isn’t sad I don’t know what is).

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  28. the Original Camille

    My two cents:
    1. I’d feel worse if my child got one of those illness and I had NOT vaccinated her, than I would if she got some vaccine-related illness. I trust science in most things in life- why not this?
    2. I hope parents that don’t vaccinate their kids keep them away from holidays in Thailand, Bali and Fiji… and India.
    3. I wonder which is more dangerous to kids- one-off vaccination or weekly junk food? Or social cigarettes at 18?

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • ibk

      We don’t vaccinate and we are expats in Asia and travel extensively all over , to all the places you mentioned! sorry to disappoint you, but my kids have not had one serious illness, just a couple of colds and coughs (and my oldest is 10)

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Andy

        I’ve said it before but it bears repeating (apparently)…

        I know a guy who regularly drinks and drives and speeds. He assures me he’s never had an accident (except one when driving within the limit and sober). I guess you’d say this is evidence that neither drunkenness nor speeding contribute to the road toll.

        Basically, your anecdotal evidence is worthless, no matter how true. It is not data and should not be used as such.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
      • Sue

        How shamefully irresponsible of you. I feel so sorry for your children, and hope that their run of good luck continues, as you gamble with their lives. A family just like yours (from northern NSW) recently travelled to India, and brought polio back into Australia. When your luck runs out, please don’t come back to Australia. Please keep travelling extensively in the opposite direction.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
      • Lisa66

        Yet…

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
  29. Sib Cee

    Thank you beautiful Mia for discussing an issue so close to my heart!

    My baby daughter has two first-cousins that are not immunised, their parents tried to brainwash my husband into not allowing me to immunise our baby. After many fights and tears (on my part) my husband finally realised that I would never forgive him if anything happened to our little girl. I still can’t believe that I had to cry to convince him because of the utter crap his brother had fed him. 

    Early this week Sweary the Bear said it best in a tweet >> “Hurry the fuck up, science. Find me an alternate reality where anti-vaccine activists spew renewable fuel instead of foam-flecked bullshit”

    BRILLIANT!
    Thanks again Mia x

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  30. Anonymous

    Dr Dunlop, as a medical student, I consider clinicians such as yourself a great inspiration. The way you have approached every negative argument in a calm manner with scientific evidence is admirable!

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • rachaeldunlop

      Thanks anonymous but just a slight correction. I’m not a clinician, my PhD is in cell biology from Sydney University Medical School

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  31. April Jermey

    “All vaccines currently available in Australia must pass stringent safety testing before being approved for use by the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA), which is our government body responsible for regulating pharmaceuticals. Multiple clinical trials for safety and effectiveness are also performed as part of the development process (which takes anywhere between 10 to 15 years, and many millions of dollars) and safety monitoring continues for as long as the vaccine is in use.”

    The swine flu vaccination was available within months of the epidemic, there is no possible way that it could have been tested for 10-15 years before it was introduced and administered in Australia. If you’re going to cite ‘facts and figures’ at least make them accurate.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Rick Morton

      And did anyone die because of swine flu vacc?

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • April Jermey

        Yes, actually, several children in WA died, and at least one in QLD too.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • Rick Morton

          Compared to? Just checking for your facts. BTW, you mentioned the vacc was available within months. It was subjected to more scrutiny than your average flu vacc.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
          • April Jermey

            So it’s okay to kill children with contaminated vaccinations in the name of the common cause? Swine flu didn’t turn out to be that bad. Those kids might never have caught it, in fact were unlikely to have, since the ‘epidemic’ didn’t take off in Australia (and no, that wasn’t because of the vaccine, because most people didn’t get the vaccine, most of those doses ended up thrown out – nice use of tax dollars btw).
            And your comment about it being subjected to more scrutiny than the average flu vacc only further cements that the original part of the story that I quoted is BS. The way it is written is that every vaccination is tested for a minimum of 10 years, when it is quite obvious that it isn’t the case at all. I find it very hard to take an article seriously at all when it makes such obviously inaccurate arguments.
            For the record, I am fully vaccinated, as is the rest of my family. I am not an anti-vaxxer, I just like to do my research, and don’t appreciate being fed BS by ‘professionals’ who don’t know how to get their facts straight.

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
            • Anonymous

              Seriously? The swine flu wasn’t that bad?
              It only had all the hospitals overflowing with sick people. Ask any health professional who works in acute care.

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
            • Tarzan

              Not that bad?? My husband (who is asthmatic) was flown by air ambulance to the nearest ICU due to swine flu complications. Now that was FUN!!!!!!!

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
            • rachaeldunlop

              April, the way it is written is, “Multiple clinical trials for safety and effectiveness are also performed as part of the development process (which takes anywhere between 10 to 15 years, and many millions of dollars)”. The development process, by which I mean the basic bench science required before a vaccine even goes into large scale human trials can take 10 – 15 years.

              So when a new vaccine appears to be rushed into use, it is not unreasonable to think that Big Pharma made it up overnight, but they are usually basing their vaccine on hundreds of hours of already published science. Just take a look at the huge body of data we now have for both malaria and HIV vaccines, which will one day (hopefully) result in successful vaccines. Similarly, the flu vax has been in use for decades and the strains included get changed as new ones emerge. There is no other way to design seasonal flu vaccines since they are just that – seasonal and also the virus mutates so quickly.

              Yes, mistakes get made. I’ve said here numerous times that no vaccines is 100% safe or effective. No, of course it’s not okay for kids to get reactions to vaccines, but there were no deaths linked to this vaccine. A toddler passed away in QLD having previously had the vaccine but the coroner could not find any evidence to link the vaccine.

              There are currently discussions underway here to get a no-fault vaccine compensation programme like the Vaccine court in the US and I fully support this idea. You’ll also notice that CSL have been dragged over the coals for poor manufacturing processes. Even the CDC and the FDA became involved.

              http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/companies/us-food-and-drug-administration-lashes-pharmaceutical-giant-csl-over-lab-practices/story-fn91v9q3-1226150436184

              In addition, there was also plenty of criticism of the speed of reacting to the 2010 events, including that GP’s software is not designed to cope with such events and that WA Health were slow to notify authorities.

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
            • Kate

              Spot on April!! Love your reply!

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
            • nyreebuchanan

              Who said the Swine Flu wasn’t bad? I lost a dear friend, a healthy, fit young Mum of two beautiful girls to Swine Flu!

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
            • Other Sue

              April, when you say “I just like to do my research”, what do you mean by the word “research”. DO you mean real research like Dr Rachael and other scientists do, where they measure things and do statistical analysis, or do you mean just reading stuff? What sources do you use?

              I would also be interested to know whether you have a good understanding of how to assess the validity of medical research. When you read a scientific paper, do you analyse whether the research question is adequately stated, whether the methodology is appropriate, whether the study is appropriately powered? DO you look at the results tables and check out the potential limitations and biases?

              If not, I don’t have a lot of credence for your “research”.

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
            • Andy

              “All vaccines currently available in Australia must pass stringent safety testing before being approved for use by the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA), which is our government body responsible for regulating pharmaceuticals. Multiple clinical trials for safety and effectiveness are also performed as part of the development process (which takes anywhere between 10 to 15 years, and many millions of dollars) and safety monitoring continues for as long as the vaccine is in use.”

              That’s quoted directly from the article. Where does it say that every individual version of every possible vaccine is tested for 10 years?

              Think of flu vaccine development the same way you might think of the internal combustion engine – which has been “in development” for generations.

              Toyota, Ford and Ferrari might have different versions of such engines, with changes every year or two – but they don’t all go back to the 1200′s and work out, all over again, how to make fuel explode and drive something. They simply take all that’s known and adjust it to make improvements or to meet specific needs. And they test these new versions in various ways before releasing on the market.

              But it’s still fair to say the internal combustion engine been in development for a very, very long time.

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
          • Jane DJ

            Really, April, not that bad? Like to tell these parents that?
            http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/andrew-allan-died-after-swine-flu-went-undiagnosed/story-e6frg13u-1225929336465

            In the words of your own fellow anti-vaxers – even one child is too many, no?

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
          • nic

            Incorrect. The swine flu vax has been around since the 1970s when swine flu first originated. It wasn’t handled any different. The swine flu is the FLU. Damn brainwashing and fearmongering. It is actually MILDER the seasonal flu. The ERs were full (trust me I know, I work there) with people scared to death bc they think they have it. 99% of the people did NOT even have seasonal flu, just a cold. Not only that to confirm swine flu must be confirmed by CDC. So, if the flu test comes back as flu A not B, you notify CDC. 3 years, I have not seen ONE A.

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
        • rachaeldunlop

          Hi April, dozens of kids had high fevers and some even febrile convulsions but there were no deaths linked to the CSL Fluvax. There was a girl named Saba Button who suffered permanent injuries which is just terrible.

          The government conducted a full scale inquiry into this incident and found out that there was a problem in the manufacturing process of that vaccine. You can reads more about it here http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/195_06_190911/kel10941_fm.html.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
          • Rudyroo

            Rachel,
            you are probably beyond this post by now but I was just wondering about the vax that created the problems with the kids…it was a mixed flu vax wasn’t it? Not just the swine flu singular strain?
            My 4 yo had a rather nasty seizure from it.

            I also ask, was this issue with the vax related to only the 2010 batches, or the previous year as well?
            My daughter had a nasty autoimmune reaction the previous year as well, though at the time we put it down to the antibiotics, but after this year I’m wondering if it was indeed the fluvax.
            Anyway, just pondering about this stuff.
            I really appreciate your article.

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
            • rachaeldunlop

              Hi Rudyroo, yes it was trivalent meaning three strains were used.

              • A/California/7/2009 (NYMC X-181) (A/California/7/2009 (H1N1) – like) 7.5 µg haemagglutinin per dose

              • A/Wisconsin/15/2009 (NYMC X-183) (A/Perth/16/2009 (H3N2) – like) 7.5 µg haemagglutinin per dose,

              • B/Brisbane/60/2008 (B/Brisbane/60/2008 – like) 7.5 µg haemagglutinin per dose,

              Full details here http://bit.ly/q4cIt4

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
        • rainbow

          no children died in WA. that is a lie

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
          • Clare M

            Thanks Rainbow, I’m in Perth too and was thinking noone died from the vaccine that I remember…? April Jermey, that’s a strong argument to make – what are your sources?

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
        • Deb

          No-one died from the pandemic swine flu vacc, there weren’t even any major complications.

          There was a problem with one brand (CSL) of seasonal flu vac that included the swine flu antigens but it has been investigated and had to do with production problems not the swine flu.

          About 250 children in WA had febrile convulsions. One child is brain injured from a reaction. No deaths. One child died in Qld after a vaccine but according to the coroner the death could not be linked to the vaccine.

          An average of 2.6 Australian children die directly from flu every year, then there are deaths from complications such as pneumonia.

          These are exactly the type of self-sustaining myths this article is aimed at. Please find out the realities before you spread what basically amounts to scary and incorrect rumours.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
        • Andy

          “Yes, actually, several children in WA died, and at least one in QLD too.”

          From swine flu vaccine???!!! Okay, I’ll believe you… when you show me a credible reference. I can find mention of one child death that might be related to the vaccine and at least 128 people dead (in Australia) from swine flu itself.

          That’s not to say there weren’t major problems with the CSL vaccine. These are being investigated.

          My understanding is that seasonal flu vacs are all essentially the same, chemically, (assuming they don’t screw something up) and only have the slight changes necessary for the varieties of influenza included each year, so they are considered to be well and truly tested.

          But I’m not a doctor or scientist (I’m assuming you’re not either), so don’t take my word for it.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
    • the Original Camille

      Swine flu was a fizzer at RPAH in Sydney. Nothing happened, the centre was busy for two weeks and deserted thereafter.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • rachaeldunlop

        I work with a cardiologist from RPA who got swine flu. He was given tamiflu but he described how terrible the cough and fever was. Out of interest Camille, would you say the “fizzer” had anything to do with vaccination or that the flu wasn’t as virulent as predicted?

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • the Original Camille

          I visited the building that was taken over to be the triage centre, and from what i gather, the staff were twiddling their thumbs after two weeks.
          But its sounds like it was horrible for those who got it…

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
          • Faybian

            All govt health workers were prepared for a crisis after it was declare a pandemic. Isn’t it a good thing that there were people there to twiddle their thumbs instead of having the crisis and no one there?

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
            • Jane DJ

              Exactly – prepare for the worst, hope for the best. How the hell else would you expect the authorities to act? Damned if they do, damned if they don’t.

              My whole family had swine flu in Aug/Sept 2009. My 12 year old son and I ended up with borderline bronchitis, my daughters ended up with ear infections, my son then got conjunctivitis, as did my husband! THe secondary infections manifested SO quickly, It was scary and I am so thankful that none of us had underlying conditions such as asthma, because the speed at which we all went down was breathtaking.

              I can honestly say I had NEVER had the flu before this. Bad colds, yes, but, wow, nothing remotely like what I experienced with swine flu. I remember the feeling as though a weight was sitting on my chest, the coughing til I threw up, for days on end, and eventually a broken rib from the coughing.

              Nearly everyone I talked to who had swine flu that year had similar stories to tell about getting secondary infections right after the flu.

              ER workers may have been twiddling their thumbs, but only because of the monumental efforts put in by switched on GP’s. When I add up the 5 family members each with at least 2 or 3 visits to our GP, 2 courses of antibiotics, 2 weeks off work for me – these are the strains an epidemic of flu puts on the healthcare system and society.

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
      • Kate In To

        I dont think it was a fizzer. My husband and I were working at a few hospitals in SSWAHS at the time, including bankstown and RPH… We caught swine flu in the first few weeks… it was horrible. Most ICU’s were full with swine flu.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
  32. Greg

    You mentioned an anti-vaccination site that “looked” like it offered a balanced view, but actually didn’t.
    I’m wondering why you couldn’t have offered a little balance yourselves by having someone with an alternative point of view, rather than 6 people all cheer leading vaccination.
    It was really a very one sides conversation wasn’t it ?

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Rick Morton

      Science picks one side ‘Greg’. That’s the side of the evidence.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • rainbow

      just out of interest greg, as i have been thinking about this a lot lately, if your family lived in third world conditions, would you vaccinate your children?

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • ibk

        I’m not Greg, but my family and I are expat in Asia. My 3 child is completely unvaccinated. What’s your point?

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • Jane DJ

          A throwaway remark like this one in light of the serious subject matter smacks of trolling. Asia could mean SIngapore ( NOT third world by any stretch of the imagination) or Asia could mean Bali, or rural China. Surely ibk as an anti-vax person wanting to educate us on your non-vaxxing genuine experiences, you would be far more willing to elaborate on your situation.

          These sketchy, vague anecdotal statements seem to pop up constantly in response to pro-vaccination evidence-based posts. Hardly seem like the response from someone capable of throroughly researching “both sides”, which non-vaxxing parents claim they do.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
        • rainbow

          i did wonder if asia meant singapore too.

          the point i was trying to make is would you take a risk of not vaccinating in a country where the risks of dying from vaccine-preventable diseases are very real, and in fact happen everyday. would you really risk your child’s life like that?

          and the other point? imagine a women who had walked for days in the hope of getting her children vaccinated, and therefore giving them a better chance of living through their childhood, how would you feel standing next to her? would you try the anti-vax debate on her?

          i have worked with families like this who would literally do anything to get their child vaccinated. the anti-vax brigade is the most classic of all first world problems. you have NO IDEA how lucky you have got it.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
    • Deb

      Science is inherently biased in favour of reality.

      There aren’t ‘two sides,’ there is only evidence and where it leads us. The evidence for vaccination is very clear – it’s safe, it’s effective, it’s saved literally millions of lives.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Mia

        Yes!!!! It’s like the shape of the earth. There are not two sides. Just one fact: it is round. Flat-earthers don’t deserve to ‘have their say’ and neither do anti-vaxxers who are intent on peddling misinformation. Dangerous. So dangerous.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • rachaeldunlop

          Neither do Holocaust deniers. Should their opinion be offered in a story about the Holocaust? I don’t think so.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
    • CJ Shipley

      Greg, to provide “both sides of the argument” can be a disservice to the public when one side is backed by evidence and the other side is backed by tin foil hat wearing magic water proponents (i.e. the homeopathy club) with dangerous and false messages.

      The other side of the argument here don’t bother to give you real evidence but instead play on the emotions of parents and its downright dangerous to give them a forum to speak.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Andy

      So, if a website says “letting your kids play in the middle of a busy highway is very dangerous and could result in their death”, would you expect to see a dissenting view just in the interests of balance?

      What if there really isn’t “another side” but just a bunch of ignorant, self-important, rebellious whackjobs who actually believe we are being manipulated by shape-shifting reptilian overlords and that vaccination is the tool they use to do it? Do we promote their views anyway, in the interests of balance? Is science now just an opinion poll?

      Dr Dunlop mentioned nine arguments that are used by those supposedly interested in “balance” and she demolished each one. What would be the point in having someone restate those same canards?

      The “balance” here is that one side has science and evidence and the other has magic and wishful thinking.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  33. sami

    Is it just the flu vaccine that’s cultured in chicken eggs/embryos, or are there others? If so, what do parents do for children with severe feather/egg allergies?

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Jane DJ

      Vaccines with possible residual egg protein:

      • Seasonal flu

      • Pandemic flu

      • Yellow fever

      • Q fever

      Research released in March showed 8.9% of Victorian children aged 12 months showed signs of egg allergy, and it would be “cause for concern” if health practitioners took the view that they must be excluded from certain vaccination

      From MJA Rapid Online Publication — 6 June 2011

      More than 98% of over 4000 egg-allergic individuals have tolerated vaccination under direct medical supervision in published studies.3-6 As a result, Australian and several international guidelines recommend that influenza vaccination of the egg-allergic individual may be undertaken using a two-step protocol (10%–90% vaccine dose, 30 minutes apart with a final 30-minute waiting period), as long as vaccines contain less than 1 μg egg ovalbumin/dose. Prior allergy testing with the vaccine is not recommended. All currently available influenza vaccines for the 2011 season in Australia have less than 1 μg ovalbumin/dose, specifically Influvac (Abbott Pharmaceuticals, < 1 μg/dose), Intanza (Sanofi Pasteur, < 0.05 μg), Vaxigrip and Vaxigrip Junior (Sanofi Pasteur, < 0.05 and < 0.025 μg, respectively), Fluvax (CSL, < 1 μg), Agrippal (Novartis, < 0.20 μg) and Fluarix (GlaxoSmithKline Australia, < 0.05 μg). Based on current evidence, we suggest that the 2011 seasonal influenza trivalent vaccines can be safely administered in a medically supervised primary care setting as a single dose with a 30-minute observation period (rather than the standard 15 minutes) in those with non-anaphylactic reactions to egg. In those with a history of egg anaphylaxis (or positive allergy tests without a history of ingestion), we recommend a split-dose protocol after discussion with an allergy specialist. We acknowledge that these guidelines are at variance with those in the Australian immunisation handbook,7 but they are consistent with more recent evidence and international recommendations. Whether it is also safe to administer vaccines containing more than 1 μg ovalbumin/dose8 awaits confirmation in a larger patient population and is not currently recommended.
      http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/195_01_040711/letters_mul_fm.html

      .

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Kris2040

      I took my daughter for her 6 month jabs today. The immunisation bit of the blue book (all babies get one when they’re born) tells you that you need to tell the people doing the immunising if (among other things) the kids have allergies, have had reactions to any vaccines, have immunity problems or lives with someone who does (eg Leukaemia, HIV/AIDS, Cancer, having chemo/radiation therapy), received blood transfusions, was premmie, has a past history of Guillain Barre syndrome, has a chronic illness, a bleeding disorder or doesn’t have a functioning spleen.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  34. nonna

    Thank you Dr Dunlop for this article. When I was 3 years of age I was diagnosed with a very nasty lung condition called bronchiectasis. It is a debilitating condition, which you would know, and over the years has made me susceptible to lung collapses, pneumonia and more frequently, lung infections including pseudomonas. I do not know whether I had had any vaccinations as a baby but the doctors believed that I had contracted either whooping cough or diphtheria which had gone undiagnosed and was the cause of this condition. As the bronchiectasis is throughout both lungs, an operation to remove one or part of the lung was not possible. I am the eldest of 4 children and I believe that my siblings were vaccinated. Doctors told my parents I would not reach my 20s, could never marry and certainly not be able to have children. Well, I have done all that and more and I am way past 20 years of age. Now can we drop all this senseless negative argy bargy. I absolutely believe in vaccinations. All my children were vaccinated. Get your kids vaccinated. It is a selfish parent who doesn’t.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  35. onwheelz

    Top work Dr Dunlop!

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  36. Jen

    I find it hard to understand why anyone would choose not to immunise their child. I feel blessed to live in a first world country where we have the opportunity to prevent these horrific illnesses.

    Personally, my blood boils when I hear about unimmunised children attending childcare or school. While it’s necessary to provide your immunisation history to these facilities I am also aware that getting a doctor to sign a waiver form of sorts results in the child still being able to attend. I may sound harsh, but if it were up to me these children would be excluded. And that makes me sad too, because it’s not the children’s fault that their parents make bad decisions (in my opinion, that is).

    As a nurse it is essential and required that I am fully immunised and I don’t mind this at all. I don’t ever want to feel that I haven’t done what’s best for the community. Thankfully I am of the opinion that immunisation is a win-win – best for the individual and best for the community too.

    I’ve seen the results of what can happen when children who are not immunised end up with a preventable disease. I assure you that parents’ attitudes change mighty fast. Talk about guilt in its purest form. I wish that I could challenge every parent or person against immunisation to watch a video of a paediatric ward of a hospital and take a good look. Scary stuff.

    I’m currently pregnant again and scared beyond belief about whooping cough. There is no way to really protect my child from this as I have to trust the community cares enough to all take the wonderful opportunity to be vaccinate. Sadly though, so many don’t (care enough that is.. in my opinion again).

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  37. kirsten

    I would like to take issue with your comment that thimerosal has not been present in routine vaccinations given to children since 2000.
    When it was suggested that my 2 day old son be given a hep B shot (go figure?) I questioned whether the vaccine contained thimerosal. The paediatrician checked with the pharmacist for me and the vaccine DID contain thimerosal. My son was born at the Mater Hospital in Crows Nest in 2004! Apparently this was old stock. Thimerosal may not have been added to vaccines since 2000, but I can definitely say (as far as I can trust the pharmacist at the Mater was correct), that Thimerosal was present in some hep B shots being administered in 2004. Whether the presence of thimerosal in vaccines is a problem or not, is not really the point. The point is, your information about Thimerosal is incorrect, which makes one wonder about the “debunking” of other bunkem in your article. I am not totally against vaccination, however I did wait until my children were 8 months old until they had any vaccinations, and they are not fully immunised now as I question the wisdom of giving children, particularly young babies so many vaccines all at once.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • rachaeldunlop

      Hi Kirsten, HepB vax is also given to adults and there is one type that contains trace amounts of thimerosal – GlaxoSmithKline Engerix-B (preservative containing). GSK make two types, one without thimerosal and one with. I don’t know why you were offered the one with.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • anon

        So with the first comment your myths 2 and 3 both turn out to be false. Good work in replying here Rachel, but it still undermines the purpose of your article in disproving ‘myths’ categorically.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • rachaeldunlop

          Anon, there are trace amounts of thimerosal in some adult vaccines, for example in the HepB Engerix manufactured by GSK there is LESS THAN 2 one millionths of a gram of thimerosal whch is 49% ethyl mercury. Thimerosal is also still used in multi-vial vaccines, in particular in the developing world as a preservative. But at such tiny concentrations, there is no evidence for toxicity. Also there are several types of HepB vax in use in Australia – there is only one type that has trace amounts of thimerosal. As I say I don’t know why it was offered to Kristen when there are plenty of preservative free options.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
    • sianmorton

      In NSW public hospitals babies are given H-B Vax II at birth which does not contain thimerosal.
      At 2, 4 and 6 months of age babies are given Infanrix Hexa which does not contain thimerosal.
      In year 7 students are given 2 adult doses of H-B Vax II which does not contain thimerosal.
      Details of the contents of vaccines in Australian vaccination schedules can be found here: http://www.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/handbook-appendix4
      Why so anonymous, anon? Hmmmm?

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • rachaeldunlop

      Hi Kirsten, I’ve updated the links in the post and added that there is one type of HepB vax with trace thimerosal in it. According to the Immunisation handbook, Engerix-B contains less than 2 µg/ml (which equals less than 2 one millionths of a gram). There is a detailed list of all vaccines available in Australia that do not have thimerosal in the pdf link from the NCIRS Thimerosal fact sheet. As you'll see from the pdf, Engerix-B now has a greatly reduced amount of thimerosal. Please see the list of HepB vaxes that are used in NSW in Sian's comment above, none of which have thimerosal in them. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  38. Anon

    People who are pro-vax – You’re all brainwashed.

    Just like there is a cure for cancer, that hasn’t been released, and just like there is more and more mounting information over how vax can inhibit your mind and thinking. As a society we are all falling dumber, dumber and dumber. We all need to open our eyes and look at the big picture. Even though this sounds fictional, what helps interrogation subjects spill their guts? With serums, injections etc, they are more plyable with mind control. Put that against our society now, TV, radio, media – the vax is there to help them control us as a mass people.

    Have a look at the flouridation issue in America, there is a strong belief by dentists that it shouldn’t be inserted into the water. Mass poisoning it may sound. Please don’t take my word for it, research it.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • lancepenna

      Love it. You are a shining beacon of troof in a world plagued by Lizard people and their NWO.

      Brainwashing – Check
      Cancer cure being withheld – Check
      Mind Control – Check
      Mass population culling – Check.

      “As a society we are all falling dumber, dumber and dumber.” Judging by your comment, you hit the nail on the head. Stop watching so many movies.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Anon

        Thanks for your reply lancepenna. We “lizard people” appreciate it… I meant no offence to anyone on this forum personally or the original author (IF SO, i apologise – everyone is entitled to their own decisions and opinions which is great)… But to respond to your comment lancepenna, i think you’ll like it…

        Complete Denial – Check
        Closed Mindedness – Check
        Brainwashed – Check
        Dumber and Dumber (i.e. “troof”) – Check

        I watch movies like everybody else, i pay taxes like everyone else, and i am entitled to my own opinion, just like everybody else.

        Maybe you should stop being so “NWO” yourself…. :)

        In relation to NWO, look at the protests in Wall Street NY. The people are trying to take back their financial freedoms piece by piece, since that the movement is going global (yes that’s right, elements are appearing at Perth) – the authorities are starting to stress out and take “action” against this peaceful movement, (why?) need i say more…. (and i do not like being referred to as a lizard, thank you very much).

        Look I’m not totally denying that vax prevents whooping cough, and many other of the diseases that we are susceptible to – but us (the public) we rely on information dispersed by the media/authorities to make our calculated decisions. If you were a worrying parent about your kids health and well-being in the future, would you do what everyone else is doing and be a ‘sheep’, or would you do what the people “up there” tell us what the right thing is to do?

        Whatever the ‘evidential’ information are we given from the authorities and media in relation to the big topics, just like this particular topic, would you trust it whole-heartedly?

        All im stipulating is that we got to have an open mind with issues like this, and after all, there is a reason why anti-vax lobbyists exist.

        I’ll leave it at that.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • lancepenna

          “I meant no offence to anyone on this forum personally or the original author”, except that in your first sentence you call us brainwashed.

          Of course you are entitled to your own opinion. However it always helps to have credible evidence to back it up. You don’t have this. You will never have this, because the evidence you so desperately crave does not exist.

          This has nothing to do with the Occupy movements, so you are drawing a very long bow there.

          As for being a ‘sheep’, and listening to the ‘people up there’, I have had a look at both sides of the issue. I generally take pride in seeing both sides to an argument, and in this case there is no debate. Anti vaxxers have nothing. Zero scientific evidence. All you have is bunk, anecdotes, correlation and more bunk. The overwhelming scientific consensus tells us that vaccines are safe. You are wrong. Oh so wrong.

          “All im stipulating is that we got to have an open mind with issues like this” Serious question here: Is there any conspiracy theory that you have heard about that you have not believed? I doubt it.

          By the way Anon, it would be nice if you wouldn’t hide, and use something resembling your real name. Why are you anti vaxxers so insistent on being cowards (No offense).

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
          • Anon

            Hi lancepenna – nah mate – i’ve had enough of the black suits that turn up at my door for shit like this.

            anyway… you don’t have to take my word for it, the information is there for those who want it, it makes no difference if you live and die in ignorance or live and learn one day that you didn’t have all the information you thought you had.

            Have a happy life and keep smiling with those pearly whites you have, after all – that’s what it is all about. :)

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
            • rudyroo

              To this particular Anon,
              perhaps it’s time to put away the pipe.

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
        • Andy

          Is the art of Poe considered a fine art or perhaps it’s more of a literary art? Or is it simply a law?

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
        • Lisa

          It must be so exhausting being so paranoid and living in fear that ‘they’ are out to get you in some way!!! I prefer to look at evidence it may not be 100% but its all we have better than fear of everything is a conspiracy – I want to live, enjoy life and get on with it!!! What a terrible existence thinking everything is ‘bad’ and ‘evil’ – oh and before you get defensive and harp on that its not ‘everything’ I mean what the so called ‘they’ or ‘NWO’ are peceived to ‘control’.
          Perception is projection – if you think ‘they’ are out to get you that you will see ‘clues’ for this in everything cause thats what you are looking for – if you see the good in things then you will mostly see this – try it – or am I messing with your mind too much!!! Gotta keep it simple hey like children running from photshopped needles and saying ‘evil’!!!
          Oh and be careful cause ‘they’ may be monitoring this topic!

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
          • Kris2040

            Hats fashioned out of alfoil usually do the trick, Lisa. And most everyone has a roll of foil in their kitchen!

            What ABOUT the NANOBOTS, Anon?!?!?!?!

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
            • sue

              what is nwo?

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
            • Kris2040

              new world order (I think).

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
        • Amandarose

          The paranoia here sounds to me like schizophrenia. So cut her some slack

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
          • Mrs. Woo

            Nah… it isn’t. I married someone just like this. Fully functional (worse, a NURSE!) but has heard this from so many “alternative” radio stations – that the NWO is out to control us, depopulate the earth by 80%, etc., etc. Gardasil, by the way, MIGHT have been created to sterilise our daughters and sons and NO ONE in the NWO is allowing it to happen to THEIR kids.

            Oh – and the NWO vets all high public offices so they can adequately control governments with their secret cabal….

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
    • Saku

      People who are anti-vax – You are Ignorant.

      I don’t even know what to say with your comparison of Vaccinations and Mind Control (That claim is sooo 90′s). About more and more information coming to light about it…. sorry, that data is either mis-analysed by people who honestly aren’t qualified to do so or placed online to suit their own agenda. I am sure someone could explain this better then me of course, but every paper I have read has said that vaccinations protect, not destroy.

      Also, kindly post a reputable source about a MAJORITY of dentists in the US claiming fluoridation is bad…. I come into frequent contact with many and they all think it was a brilliant move on the behalf of the governments.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Andy

        But you have to appreciate the fact that so much secret information is easily found on Google and that millions of people know all about it but it’s still secret.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
      • Lisa J

        My dentist actually says fluoridation is bad. He said that the bacteria have become immune to it over time and dental caries are returning to levels they were at before massive fluoridation took place and now we’re taking in an unnecessary chemical with for no reason. He also stated that misuse of mouth rinses and parents who helpfully attempt to also give their children fluoride chews have been accidentally exposing them to too large of quantities.

        I’m in US. He didn’t say it was poisoning us (except occasional OD’s by over-protective parents) or ruining our health, etc., just that it has lost its effectiveness and probably could/should be removed from our water supply.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • Andy

          I’m pretty sure that fluoride is not used against bacteria but, rather, provides a chemical barrier to the acidity that causes cavities. Saying it doesn’t kill bacteria, any more, is a bit like saying insect screens don’t kill insects any more. They were never intended to.

          But I’m open to correction.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
    • David

      Hi Anon,
      As a neurobiologist I would appreciate it if you could put up some links for the mechanism of mind control. It would make my life much easier if I could target a specific mechanisms with which to try and eliminate mental disorders such as general anxiety, panic disorder, PTSD etc. You are certainly entitled to your own opinions and I hearily approve of you voiceing them. However you are not entitled to your own facts . If you make a statement of fact (i.e.the majority of dentists are against fluroide in the water) please supply evidence, a link to the survey or study would be enough to help us analysis the evidence. Thanks

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Faybian

      NOOOOooooo!!! Not the anti fluoridation “thing”. See, anon, Qld had the worst rate of dental caries in the country, with the exception of townsville (and one or two other places whose names I can’t remember) because their supplies were fluoridated. Like many things (oxygen, carbon, mercury etc), it’s good in small amounts, but dangerous/non beneficial in large amounts. I know there were problems with dosage strength when fluoride was introduced into Brisbane water, but most of the dentists I’ve come across (at Qld health) are happy it’s finally there.
      Put your tin foil hat on, that may help.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Kris2040

        Yes – when I was posted to Toowoomba, I had to get this special fluoride tooth mousse because there wasn’t fluoride in the water supply – you could actually see where my teeth had started to deteriorate. Everywhere else I’ve been (except on ships) has fluoridated water.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
      • Anon

        If you want flouride in your water, go get whatever it is you need (i.e toothpaste) and do it yourself. Pretty great how almost everyone didn’t have a choice when having it put into our water. How about brush your own teeth? and stop relying on the authorities to do it for you.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • Kris2040

          Yeah! And lets stop making sure the water supply is clean too! Everyone’s capable of getting water filtering products and doing it themselves!

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
        • Faybian

          Like I currently do already?? Fluoridated water is a backup. My husband is slowly losing his teeth due to gum disease and he’s one of the fussiest teeth brushers I know, so I’m well aware of fluorides limits. I’m still glad it’s in our water.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
    • kateinlondon

      wow – a cure for ‘cancer’ that hasn’t been released. All cancer? All at once? That’s some amazing cure. And just out of interest, why hasn’t it been released? Strikes me that would be a pretty popular and profitable thing.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • anon

        Here, found this for you.
        http://www.dca.med.ualberta.ca/Home/Media/articles/newscientist.pdf

        Go and have a look, it all comes down to a ‘patent’ not being recieved. Which guess who controls the patents. Let me say this, the people who govern our respective countries are MONEY DRIVEN. If something new that comes out just like this, they think “how could we make some money from it” – but no they’re not releasing this information because the current treatments MAKE THEM MUCH MORE MONEY. So there you go.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • kateinlondon

          and one minutes further googling would show you that this is an article from 2007, the clinical trial only completed last year, a very small group working on a speific cancer…
          ”No conclusions can be made on whether the drug is safe or effective in patients with this form of brain cancer, due to the limited number of patients tested by the study’s leads…Researchers emphasize that use of DCA by patients or physicians…is not only inappropriate but may also be dangerous.”

          whilst this area of study sounds fantastic (although I am no scientist so would actually have no idea), i highly doubt that those leading the trial would claim that they have the ‘cure for cancer’.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
          • anon

            As far as i know chemotherapy is quite dangerous…go figure.

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
            • Amy

              Yes, chemo therapy can be quite dangerous. You know what is also pretty dangerous? Being dead. Cos, you know, you’re dead and all.

              Chemo has saved the lives of: my Uncle, a close friend of my parents, a girl I went to high school with, 5 of my regular customers at my past job, the store manager of a store I worked at 4 years ago (twice – prostate, then later testicular), two of my current job regular customers and one of my close friend’s Aunties. These are just the people off the top of my head, that I know of, one single person’s annecdotes. So yeah, I’d say that chemo is a fairly decent treatment/cure of cancer.

              I am sick to death of conspiracy theorists who insist that the majority of people who create medications and treatments for people are evil bastards that without the ‘real’ cures because the current ones make more money blah blah blah. Yes, there are a few bad eggs in the pharma industry where patents for certain drugs are so long and poorer people can’t access a cheaper generic versions – but all in all, people want to help. It must be tiring being so paranoid and pessimistic about the world all the time.

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
        • sharons

          Anon, seriously, this is just insulting. Health care professionals and scientists such as the author dedicate years of their life studying for the benefit of our patients and the community. For you to even think that we do it as some sort of power trip or to brainwash people is just annoying and pathetic. Seriously. I came from a third world country where people fall sick and die because of the lack of health care. It’s only when you come from those conditions that you realize just how good you have it. You have no idea how lucky you are to even have the option to vaccinate.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
        • kass hall

          oh FFS.

          If you seriously think governments and big business are hiding a cure for cancer then you are seriously an idiot. I’ve got cancer now, the FOURTH TIME (each one different) and it is because of CHEMO that I am STILL ALIVE instead of dead, aged 12. You sound like my Aunty. She thinks that the oncologists dont want to cure people because then they’d be unemployed.

          SEE A SHRINK. This kind of peddling BS is not free speech, it’s irresponsible and disgusting. It is people like you we should be testing medication on because goodness knows you’re no use for anything else.

          Seriously, I am sick of these MORONS talking utter CRAP.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
        • RetroPastiche

          Dear Anon

          I’m not sure you understand patent law. If a patent isn’t applied for there is absolutely no restriction on who can make the pharmaceutical. In this case it’s probably the case that the patent expired a long time ago (hinted at in the text “The drug, dichloroacetate (DCA), has already been used for years to treat rare metabolic disorders and so is known to be relatively safe” (Para 1). Once a patent has expired, there is little or no commercial advantage for any pharmaceutical company to conduct the rigorous and expensive testing required for the drug’s use in a new way.

          One way to think about this is to use the example of paracetamol. Panadol (the brand name type) is quite expensive to buy. Aldi brand paracetemol is quite cheap. There is absolutely no difference between the active components of the tablet once you ingest it, even though there might be other components (not related to the headache relieving properties) that might make it easier on your digestive system. Because the patent on the original drug has expired, any pharmaceutical company can make it and sell it for any price they can get.

          I don’t think it’s about the making of money, it’s about how much it costs the companies to get the drugs tested to the stringent standards of Western countries (Australia, US, Europe etc). Just saying that the drug appears to show results isn’t enough for the regulators. They need serious proof, which requires serious dollars. I’m not saying that’s a good thing, but it’s the reality of the situation. It’s not a conspiracy theory, just capitalism at work.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
  39. Pinklizzy

    Thank you so much for this post.
    For a long time it was considered entirely un-pc to express any frustration or anger with the anti vaxers for putting all our children’s live in danger. Apparently, their “right to choose” came before “my kids right to live without getting whooping cough and possibly side effects that would scar them forever”.

    Hopefully, those days are coming to an end.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  40. Allan MacDonald

    A fantastic run through of why vaccination denial is dangerous nonsense. As a parent and physician, it’s great to have a website to point people to – should save my vocal cords some ;-)

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  41. sianmorton

    It is great to see that this article has provoked such great discussion. I have enjoyed reading all the posts and I have particularly enjoyed reading the replies to questions and concerns. It has been interesting to read the perspectives of those who are less than sure about vaccination and it has been heartening to see some supportive and helpful responses to their doubts. For those of us who are involved with vaccinating children on a day-to-day basis it is useful to have a better idea what information is particularly important to parents.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • rachaeldunlop

      Sian, I couldn’t agree more. I took a bit of a break from commenting yesterday because to be honest, I was pretty tired! I’ve also learned an awful lot myself when I’ve needed to research questions posed in an effort to ensure I post accurate information. Also, it’s fantastic that there are lots of people responding who are health care professionals. Thank you to everyone who is contributing to this incredibly worthwhile discussion.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  42. Tomo

    Maybe your information is part of that 60% of misinformation out there on “Dr Google”. Unless we see an actual report from these scientists that are apparently debunking the myths, this argument will stop.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Rick Morton

      Click the links. Can you beat peer reviewed scientific literature? Because that trumps all.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Allan MacDonald

      The Cochrane Library (authoritative reviews of medical literature) did a huge meta-analysis of MMR/Autism studies; it’s freely available, I think.
      I’m a parent and a physician…and nothing I researched led me to believe vaccines were unsafe. And yes, my kids are vaccinated.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  43. eternally

    I think it is strange that in all of modern medicine, vaccination causes such heated debate. Plenty of anti-vaxxers spouting conspiracy theories & pseudo-science. Where are the anti-chemo’s?
    After all, chemotherapy has horrendous side effects, is very expensive (hence big pharma profit), for often very little benefit – a survival increase of only a month or two is considered a success in many cancer trials.
    And it’s just full of ‘toxins’.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Andy

      Two words “Mike Adams”. He’s a committed anti-chemo campaigner who happily reports the deaths of any famous people who die after having anything to do with conventional cancer treatment. He even reported the “demise” of Michale Douglas who has undergone chemo for throat cancer. Douglas isn’t dead, of course, but “never let the facts get in the way”.

      Adams is also a hero of the anti-vax lobby.

      And then there’s Perth’s Peter Dingle whose wife died after refusing chemo for her colorectal cancer, until it was far too late.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Andy

        “Michael Douglas” (edit facility disappeared)

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
    • sianmorton

      Apart from being inaccurate, I really don’t think this comment is relevant to the issue under discussion.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Sue

      Eternally – I think it’s because the childhood infectious diseases have virtually disappeared (thanks to vaccination as well as antibiotics and better living conditions), so it’s easy to only see risks in the vaccine and not see the consequences of the disease.

      OTOH, cancer is very much prevalent, and increasing as we all live longer. Most people udnerstand that cancer is commonly serious or fatal and could affect themselves or thier loved ones – so there is more invested in looking for “a cure” rather than criticising “Big Pharma” (as is PC these days). Ironically, the same Big Pharma that is so much criticised and hated by certain sectors is where we get cancer chemotherapy, vitamins, insulin, ventolin, antibiotics – as well as vaccinations.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  44. Anonymous

    Is it a myth that doctors get kickbacks from pharma companies for promoting vaccination?

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • sianmorton

      Yes.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Deb

      It’s a very unfortunate psychological phenomenon that when you throw out an accusation like that people forget the context and remember the insinuation, even if it is debunked. Lawyers on television (and in real life for all I know) use it as a tactic to sway the jury all the time.

      To anonymously attack an entire group just shows you as a coward who has no decent argument to make and is reduced to smears.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • eternally

      Yes.
      Doctors aren’t even allowed to get free pens from pharma companies anymore!

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Sue

      I would love to see equal scrutiny of the so-called “alternative health care” industry. Do practitioners declare conflicts of interest when they recommend their own products? How evidence-based are their therapies? How cost-effective is their therapy? Why do they keep getting you to go back for more visits?

      We know that “alternative therapies” are par of a multi-national, multi-billion dollar industry. Are they also part of “Big Pharma”?

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Amy

        Totally agree. Blackmores anyone? Their deal with the Pharma Guild was not done for the good of people’s general health, it was done so they could boost their sales.

        I was working full time AND uni full time last year, and was constantly getting sick and was always tired. My boss told me it was ‘not normal’ to get sick as often as I did (which wasn’t THAT often, and I never rarely work for it) and told me I should see a naturopath. To appease her, I did. I was told what I already knew: that I was overworked and needed a rest, a day off each week. But when I had assignments coming out of my every orifice and a boss (that despite her ‘concern’ for my health) got peeved whenever I asked for a day off to study, a whole day of rst wasn’t an option (thank goodness I quit and am now just working casually!). Anyway, I was ‘prescribed’ three different vitamins, each a month’s worth, totally nearly $100. So apparently in order to keep in good health, I needed to spend $100 a month on vitamins. I reacted badly to a B complex one (itchy skin, red, inflamed and swollen so bad I got sent home from work), so I went to my regular GP (biomedicine trained!). She asked me why on earth I was taking vitamins when she knew my diet and from it I was getting all the nutrients and vitamins I could possibly need. She told me stop wasting my money, and sadly there was nothing I could so for the tiredness but quit my job and actually physically rest. Which I did a few months later. So, natural therapist told me I ‘needed’ to spend $100 a month, and see her (at a cost of $185 unrebateable) every two months. My biomedicine doc? I didn’t need to spend any many, or see her again until after I gave myself a true break, and if the tiredness continued even after that. It didn’t. So in my small experience there, the ‘money hungry, evil’ biomedicine doc was the one that saved me money and taking unnecessary ‘medications’.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • Anonymous

          Well put, Amy.

          Why is it that those “alternative” practitioners need you coming back regularly for “health maintenance”, whether you feel you need to or not? How does that contribute to your taking responsiblity for your own health. Isn’t it just helping them line their pockets?

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
        • sharons

          The blackmores deal is not going through thanks in part to protests from pharmacists such as myself and doctors. I personally don’t recommend crap to people that isn’t going to work. I became a health care professional to help people, not to confuse them. I use a few herbals that have convincing scientific evidence behind them and that’s it.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
      • Dan Buzzard

        I have noticed that no matter what ailment you have an Alternative (to) Medicine practitioner always has something they can sell you. I don’t think I’ve ever had a Homeopath give me a referral to someone else; that would be bad salesmanship.

        Fortunately real Doctors make terrible salesmen (honesty is their Achilles’ heel). While the Alternative (to) Medicine crowd happily endanger lives in the pursuit of profit.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
  45. melissab

    Enjoyed reading this scientifically based info. It’s very important as parents that we make informed decisions on behalf of our children. I am in favour of immunisation on the whole, however I also think we also need to evaluate some of the vaccinations & their benefits when they are additional to those on the recommended schedule for children eg: flu.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Deb

      Melissa why do you think they aren’t evaluated?

      Seeing you mention flu, we obviously all remember the WA situation a couple of years ago. Do you know why the WA government decided to introduce the flu shot for children? Because in 2007 in WA 4 children died directly of flu, out of 7 in Australia. And that doesn’t count the number who die of complications such as pneumonia.

      In Australia an average of 2.6 children from 0-4 die directly of influenza every year. Then there is the rest of the population, the hospitalisations, the lifelong respiratory complications and the deaths from pneumonia and other complications.

      I have nothing but sympathy for the victims of the CSL debacle. I think it is excellent that there was an investigation and the company have had their knuckles rapped. Hopefully there will be changes and any future licences will be strictly overseen or other companies used, because other brands did not have the same problems.

      But scary as it was, it doesn’t wipe out the children who are dying of flu every year in Australia.

      Why do you think it wasn’t evaluated?

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Deb

        Sorry, meant to put in the reference for my figures there http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/content/cda-cdi3202b.htm

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
      • Eli

        My boyfriend got Cerebral Palsy when he was six months old from the flu. His fever was very high, and it caused his brain to swell and push against his skull. Years of extreme physical therapy later, he is able to function in society, however he has very little feeling in his legs, and cannot walk well.

        He is one of the lucky ones.
        We have more than death to be concerned about as a consequence of these diseases.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
  46. Anonymous

    As a paediatrician, I can provide both a population health and a clinical perspective to parents making decisions about immunisation. In Australia this past winter, we have had an unprecedented pertussis epidemic. I can report at least one infant death in my state, and numerous cases of very sick children and young people hospitalised. Because immunity to pertussis wanes after about 7 years, the hospital in which i work decided to immunise its entire workforce, after many were infected by the patients. The acellular vaccine now used has significantly fewer side effects than in the past; adverse events, while still possible, are much lower in number than I remember when I was a younger doctor.

    More concerning is the measles epidemic also experienced this year. People should be aware that measles and chicken pox can make children and adults extremely sick with complications that vastly outweigh the reactions to the vaccines. Pneumonia is common in both disorders. I can recall two children in my career who have both died from an uncommon degenerative neurological disorder caused by Measles many years after the child has been infected. Both those children would be alive if they had been vaccinated.

    It has been interesting as a trainee, clinician and teacher watching serious diseases disappear in our community (e.g. epiglottitis) as vaccines have exhibited their benefit and others recur (pertussis) as herd immunity has disappeared.

    While my standards of practice always try and view the health issues from the child and family’s perspective, I simply cannot condone children not being immunised. The research is clear, the clinical natural history of infectious diseases is well established, and while I can understand the factors at play behind science denial, immunisation is one of the few issues I am absolutely unequivocal in my support for when discussing it with parents.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  47. Dr Beth

    As a clinical psychologist (who working in child psychiatry at the peak of the mmr autism hysteria) I’m fascinated by the complex process of denial that proponents of anti-vaccine ideology must go through. This Scientific American article looks at science denial as a tribal phenomenon. I can’t help wondering if it’s a failing of our education system, most people don’t really know how to evaluate the scientific literature, and I think that leaves them vulnerable to those speak the loudest and most vehemently. For the record my non-vacc friends and their kids were politely asked to refrain from holding my daughter until she’d got a bit further on her vaccination schedule … mainly to make a point about being pissed off they were benefitting from our herd immunity! http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2011/04/22/trains-nukes-marriage-and-vaccines-and-anything-else-why-the-facts-dont-matter/

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Sue

      Great article, Dr Beth. The anti-science ideology seems to cluster around a particular group of areas – notably anti-vaccination, the radical “natural childbirth” (anti-hospital) movement and climate science denial. There are many things in common between these movements, and the communication within “echo chambers” is greatly enhanced by use of the internet.

      Fascinating area of wealthy western society. In the meantime, people in the developing world who are struggling to feed their children would love to be able to immunise them, have obstetric care, and access to the sort of energy technologies that we argue over.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Kris2040

        Absolutely, Sue. I have pointed this out time and again to AVers and NCBers. Carrying on about being all natural, from their air conditioned, lit, connected to teh interwebz homes. I’d call that pretty bloody privileged. They’re very hard done by, though, they’ll have you know. Because health care professionals told them something they didn’t want to hear, usually.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • Amanda

          In Western countries where we have good access to healthcare and standards of hygiene, home birth (with attending midwives) is actually about as risky as hospital birth for low-risk women.

          Not sure who you’ve been speaking to about childbirth outside the hospital system, but for me it wasn’t a decision I made lightly, and was thoroughly researched by speaking to medical professionals in and out of the hospital system, reading as much as I could about it (including, but far from limited to “Dr Google”), etc. Like many other HBers I’ve spoken to, my decision to labour and birth at home arose from the knowledge that my body would labour better at home, which would lead to less need for intervention, and ultimately fewer risks.

          And for the record I’m pro-vax :)

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
          • Kris2040

            That’s great. For you. But even you must agree that the fact that you are able to research, have the choice to have an elective caesar, homebirth, birth centre, drug free hospital birth, using drugs hospital birth, emergency Caesar if you need it, proves what a position of privilege you are in?

            I think your claim that home birth is as risky as hospital is a long bow to draw though. If you live in an urban area and have access to a hospital, AND have the presence of mind to go there when you start to notice things not going so well, then yes. But if you have a doggedly anti hospital attitude, or an attending midwife with one, are isolated, then I’d suggest the safety isn’t as good.

            As my prenatal educator/prenatal yoga teacher explained – 99% of the time, you and your body know what to do and just get on with it. You go to the hospital for that just in case.

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
    • Riddlemethis

      Great article & you are spot on about the gap in our broad science education. Last night at my book group someone tried to say that research shows that ‘prayer works’ b/c it’s as effective as placebo & well, placebo works. I had to clarify for her that in scientific terms placebo (ie: doing nothing) is the standard against which things are ethically tested for clinical efficacy & that if something works just as well as doing nothing, then nothing is what you ought to do! The response at the table was ‘Oh!’.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  48. hannahfromsa

    Go Doctor D! I haven’t commented on this post because I would have difficulty keeping to the dinner party rules! My mildest view is that parents who do not follow medical advice and vax should be prosecuted for neglecting their children. The mind boggles that people will endanger the health of their children for mad conspiracy theories.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Anonymous

      Damn, when I saw “Dr D” I thought you were referring to Peter Dingle. He’s taken to tweeting about vaccines despite telling the WA Coroner (investigating the death of Dingle’s wife from homeopathically “treated” cancer) he only knows about things you can breathe in.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • hannahfromsa

        It’s amazing how much energy is spent on the anti-vax lobby. When there are so many real issues to tackle

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • Andy

          Hmmm, I’m pretty sure the anti-vax lobby is real. Do you think everyone commenting is incapable of considering other issues while they expose the silliness of the lobby?

          Or have I misread your comment?

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
          • Kris2040

            Yeah. Hannah’s pro-vax. I think she’s referring to the energy the Meryls et al put into their fantasy crusades.

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
            • hannahfromsa

              yes I am- so sorry about the confusion! And thanks for interpreting my late-night posts Kris.

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
            • Andy

              Thanks Kris – and Hannah. I read it several times and noted some ambiguity whilst writing a response.

              The perils of text.

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
  49. guest

    Yay, Facts! A rarely-seen aspect of immunisation debates.
    Go dr rachey.

    And to all those mums who are blathering on about “As a Mum, I Have The Right not to Vaccinate” and “You Don’t Understand the Special Needs of My Kid” – your family has a right to live in physical isolation from every other kid and the public health system.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  50. Gen

    Thankyou for writing this article! I’ve just read “Bad Science” by Ben Goldacre which is all about how science is so misrepresented in the media and he talks heaps about the MMR/autism sensationalisation and other things like homeopathy, nutrionists etc. So for anyone who liked this article and want to be able to sift through all the bullshit, I definitely recommend reading it!

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Amanda

      You could also check out Seth Mnookin’s The Panic Virus which thoroughly explains the whole sitch…

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • kateinlondon

      if i wasn’t married, I would TOTALLY marry Ben Goldacre. I love that book.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Andy

        Gee, our relationship was short lived Kate.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • kateinlondon

          Sprung. I’d be a terrible adulterer.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
          • Jane DJ

            Ahem…

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
            • Andy

              Strepsil?

              …contains toxins.

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
            • Jane DJ

              Show me the citation

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
            • Andy

              There’s a lemon on the box. Lemons contain citric ACID – a toxic chemical used as a bathroom cleaner and insecticide. Therefore, they must be toxic.

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
            • Jane DJ

              Rhetoric and capitals, not convinced.

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
            • Andy

              Damn… forgot the exclimayshion marks!!!! That would surely have convinced you. I mean, it is THE TRUTH!!!!!!

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
            • Jane DJ

              Now you are just being patronising. And mean.

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
            • Andy

              First Kate and now you. I’m losing my touch.

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
      • trixie melodian

        *sob*

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
    • rachaeldunlop

      Thanks Gen, I wrote a short piece about the myth of autism and MMR on Monday. http://theconversation.edu.au/mondays-medical-myth-the-mmr-vaccine-causes-autism-3739

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Lisa

        So Andrew Wakefield is ok with vaccinations then as long as its not in combinations!!! I thought if you loved your children you wouldnt inject them at all – which is the distusting catch cry that they guilt parents to not vacinate – so angry I nearly believed them not that long ago – everything has holes in it!!!

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • Andy

          Yep, it’s somewhat weird that the AVN, whose catch cry is “Love them, protect them, NEVER inject them” appear to hold Wakefield up as some sort of hero despite the fact he was developing a competing product that would, presumably, have been injected into kids.

          If he’d ever managed to develop and market it, then boast about it on the AVN’s FB page, they’d have hung him out to dry as they do with anyone who supports vaccination.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...

So, we have $1000 to give away... oh, would you be interested? Well step right this way.

To go in the draw to win, just LIKE us on Facebook, enter your email address and tell us in 25 words or less why you love reading Mamamia.

Close this popup



Full Terms & Conditions