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Screen shot 2012 07 14 at 4.54.21 PM Transgender athletes at the Olympics

Caster Semenya

 

 

 

 

BY JAMILA RIZVI

In 2009, world champion 800m runner Caster Semenya was the subject of a huge media and public backlash, after rumours emerged that she had failed a gender test. A competitor in the same race, Elisa Cusma, said of Caster: “These kind of people should not run with us. For me, she’s not a woman. She’s a man.”

Caster told the BBC last year, “I don’t give a sh#% about athletics any more…. So running or not running, it’s the same story for me… I don’t have rights, let’s put it this way, in athletics I don’t have rights.”

I am sure Caster is a strong individual. You have to be, in order to dedicate the time and effort it requires to be an elite sportsperson. But those are the words of a woman who was at her breaking point, a woman who felt attacked and was hitting back.

There were reports earlier this year that the International Olympic Committee is considering new guidelines that would prevent women from competing if they have more than a certain level of testosterone in their bodies.

This is not about doctors giving sneaky injections to athletes under the table and trying to cover it up – that’s blatant cheating. No – these potential rules would effect women who are simply born that way.

Academic experts Rebecca Jordan-Young and Katrina Karkazis say that measuring testosterone levels is simply not the right way to go. They argue that:

“Testosterone is one of the most slippery markers that sports authorities have come up with yet. Yes, average testosterone levels are markedly different for men and women. But levels vary widely depending on time of day, time of life, social status and – crucially – one’s history of athletic training…

Yes, doping with testosterone will most likely improve your performance by increasing muscle size, strength and endurance. But you cannot predict how well athletes will do in a competition by knowing their relative testosterone levels. There is just too much variation in how bodies make and respond to testosterone – and testosterone is but one element of an athlete’s physiology.”

Now a lot of that makes sense but the lines of reason are only blurred further when you consider Keelin Godsey’s story.

Screen shot 2012 07 14 at 4.53.15 PM Transgender athletes at the Olympics

Keelin Godsey

Keelin Godsey isn’t competing in the London 2012 Olympics. Keelin is 28, he lives in Massachusettes and he’s a world class hammer thrower. But despite setting a personal best of 231 feet 3 inches, during the qualifying rounds for the US Olympic team, Keelin was still 11 inches short of the last qualifier, Jessica Cosby. That’s right, Jessica.

While he identifies as male, Keelin is physically female and so competes against women in the hammer throw. Keelin has postponed gender reassignment surgery for years, in the hope of finally reaching his dream of representing his country at an Olympic Games. Now it seems, that’s unlikely to ever happen.

It’s a shattered dream and one which many athletes – who fell just short of the standard required to compete on the world’s biggest sporting stage – have to deal with. But imagine if things had gone differently for Keelin. Imagine if Keelin had managed to throw that extra 11 inches. What would the world’s reaction have been?

In an interview last month, Keelin’s mother Renee admitted to being worried about how her son would be treated if the spotlight of the world’s media was thrust upon him. The New York Times reported:

“The mother in me wants only positive, and I worry about Keelin being hurt,” Renee Godsey said.

She continued: “A lot of rules have been changed for Keelin to get this far, I understand that. And I understand that a lot of people are going to say that Keelin has advantages. But she was born a female and is still 100 percent female”…

In a conversation with a reporter, Renee Godsey frequently referred to “Keelin” instead of using pronouns and acknowledged that “of course it has been a transition, as it would be for any parent”.

“But Keelin is so strong,” Renee said. “Keelin is the bravest person I know.”

I have no doubt that Keelin is a strong individual. Realising that you don’t identify with the gender you were physically born as and communicating that to a society – which still doesn’t readily accept how you feel – would toughen you up pretty fast. But imagine how much the difficulty of that transition would be amplified, when it’s being made in the public spotlight. Imagine having to deny who you feel you are, in order to compete for a dream you desperately want.

I’m hesitant to put words into the mouths of Keelin’s friends and family – I don’t know them. But in addition to feeling Keelin’s disappointment, I would expect that their emotions are tapered with at least a slight sense of relief. Because if Keelin had made it to the London Olympics, as a competitor in the women’s hammer throw – the sorts of abuse that would have been hurled at him is unimaginable.

Screen shot 2012 07 14 at 5.01.09 PM Transgender athletes at the Olympics

London 2012

The Olympics separate competitors down gender lines. Why? To recognise the role that sexual genetics play in determining a person’s physical capabilities and to ensure women are able to compete at sport’s highest levels.

But in a world now learning to accept that not everyone associates with the gender they are born with and with medical advances meaning we can assist those people to live the life they want to – how does that effect competitive sport?

There is no question that a level playing field is absolutely essential to maintaining public confidence in the outcome of sporting competitions. That’s why we have such strict rules governing the use of performance enhancing drugs; it’s about ensuring the integrity of the sports and protecting the achievements of the athletes.

I used to work for an Australian sports minister and she once said to me: “There’s more politics in sport than there is in politics.” She was 100 per cent right. And the same phrase applies ten fold, when we’re talking about the gendered politics of sport.

You can watch Caster Semenya compete in the semi-final of the women’s 800m tonight.

What do you think? Should there be testosterone tests for women who compete at the Olympics? Should transgender people be allowed to compete at the Olympics after they have had gender reassignment surgery?

 

Comments

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82 Comments so far

  1. Anonymous

    Caster has or had undescended testicles as well as 3x the “normal” level of testosterone in the average woman.

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  2. Liz

    I do think that sometimes testosterone levels in a women can be too high, so I don’t think the testing is bad, just like all of the other doping tests. As for transgender people I think the Olympics has a rule that they have to have a gender change surgery and have been taking hormones for at least 2 years. Which I agree with, not only because someone born a male could have an edge over female competitors, but because I think it would be abused if it was compete in what ever gender. Like I could see countries having men say they identify as women just to win gold. See what I’m saying? It’s sad that we have to think about this kind of thing it’s true. I think they should compete, with those rules I said (if they’re true, I can’t exactly remember).

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  3. Drew(Darlinghurst)

    Members of the LGBT Community throughout the world face stigma and discrimination. This is no different.

    Let Transgender people compete in their chosen gender.

    Lets celebrate Diversity !!!!

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  4. Kathy Patrick

    Not let athletes with too much natural testosterone compete because it gives them an unfair advantage? What about the athletes that have longer legs that can take longer steps? If you are born that way then you are born that way. You are not cheating you just have an ability to run faster. Just like Usain Bolt.

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  5. Sophiebee

    Where did you get your information that Caster Semenya is “transgender”? As far as I have read and hears, she is a hermaphrodite, which is not the same thing. Another classic example of Jamila not letting the truth get in the way of her stories.

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    • Jcbrisbane

      Where did you get the information that she is even an hermaphrodite? I can’t find any source confirming this.

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    • Kathy Patrick

      Caster is not a hermaphradite she is and was born a femaleand but has higher than normal testosterone levels natually occuring in her body.

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    • jamilarizvi

      Hi Sophiebee

      I think it might be you who has the facts mixed up here and not us. Caster was born female according to statement she has made, her family have made and her doctors. That’s confirmation enough for me.

      Jamila

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      • SophieBee

        The results were not published, however the testing that was done “apparently” revealed Caster to be a hermaphrodite. I heard this on the project, which several of your staff appear on, so it must be credible? Either way she is definitely NOT transgender. The title of your story is misleading.

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      • sharoncello

        Hi Jamila,

        Firstly, a great article about Keelin Godsey and politics in sport :)

        … but why introduce the article with Caster Semenya? She is female and she identifies as female. As far as I know there has never been any serious suggestion that she is transgender. Back in ’09 the gossip was that she was a man pretending to be a woman, but that was very quickly dispelled. Obviously some people are convinced that she is a hermaphrodite, but that would label her intersex not transgender!

        The more we learn about gender, the more we know that it is not always cut and dried and there is a lot of confusion and ignorance amongst people. I’m disappointed that you have fuelled the fire about Caster Semenya with this article.

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        • Ruth

          I would more accurately describe Semenya as intersexed, because she identifies and was raised as a girl, plus has natural female characteristics. It happens, some women find out later in life that they internally have some form of testicles.
          Hermaphrodite imo is a slur, as only invertibrates are capable of hermaphrodite activity. It’s a pet hate of mine to call someone a hermaphrodite, and a clear sign of stupidity.
          She also doesnt qualify imo as a traditional transsexual, like Keelin, but intersex can fit under the transgender banner.

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          • sharoncello

            Hi Ruth,

            I can’t tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me – maybe a bit of both?

            In my opinion it is up to an individual to label their own gender/sexuality and whether or not they label it publically is entirely up to them. It is not up to us to label Caster Semenya as transgender or intersex when she does not :)

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  6. Bradley

    This is actually a common occurrence. There are quite a number of people who “identify” themselves as this or that because identifying as “this” gives them an advantage in succeeding in a particular field where they had no chance of success when identifying as “that”.

    When Keelin has the surgery, then by all means Keelin can and should represent as a woman in anything she chooses.

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    • Ebony

      The way i read the story, it says she currently is female but with surgery he/she will become male. That’s why she’s held off having surgery to try and qualify for the Olympic as a woman while he/she still has Girly bits.

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      • Bradley

        Ooops ! I read that one back to front.

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  7. Anna

    This is a very interesting topic, and the kind I like to see on this site. I am in two minds about this.

    My question : is Keelin delaying surgery because his only chance of Olympic succes was as a female because of his abilities in the sport, or,

    is he not able to compete as a man after gender reassignement surgery because the hormones & medications needed to facilitate the change would preclude him from eligibility as a man.

    If it is the first one, then I am in two minds. I cannot pretend to understand what it must be like to not identify with my gender but from what I can gather the ability to be recognised and accpeted as what you believe is your true gender, is the most important thing. Would winning a medal as a gender you dont believe yourself to really be, really be a win for you? Forget about what society would say and think, I mean how would Keelin really feel?

    Complex topic. Missing inches on the field versus “missing inches” prior to genital reassignment does not even stratch the surface.

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  8. Mum of Two

    I dont believe that Caster Semenia actually failed any tests, I watched a documentary on her a couple of months ago. The problems were with the South African athletics association and no-one could actually prove anything either way so they tried to ban her more because they were embarrassed by all of the attention she was bringing to them.Caster believes 100% that she is a women and is confused by all of the controversy.

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  9. Lucy

    Spell check Massachusetts*

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  10. Shell

    For those interested in learning more about intersex conditions please watch the following trailer from a very talented young Australian. It might just open your eyes to the fact that gender is not always black and white. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3QOTMCVREE

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  11. color me confussed

    Another revposted old story with a new date.
    Is there really absolutely nothing new the mm team can find to write about?

    You can’t find anything at all that is new?
    Is this going to become a regular thing on here from now on?
    Reposting previous stories with nothing changed except the date?

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    • jamilarizvi

      Hi color me confused

      We’re reposting this today because Caster is running tonight and we thought it was relevant. It’s in addition to our usual line up for the day – so we’re actually posting more content than usual and not less.

      Cheers,

      Jamila

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      • Nak

        Don’t change the date then. Sorry for being blunt but it’s annoying.

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      • Jess

        Hi Jamila
        Can you post the link where you found information about Semenya being transgender? I can’t find anything online, and I’d love to read the article/info that you did!
        (And I for one am a big MM regardless of old articles being re-posted!)
        Cheers
        Jess

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    • Jess88

      I thought I had read this post before too! And the parent fail one from earlier in the week, that was a repost too wasn’t it?

      I wonder why this is being done – who decided that reposting old stories with new dates was a good idea, and what was the reasoning behind it?

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      • alyssakt

        Especially the ones with a new date, no new reading material and still carrying the old comments…
        When this happened a little while ago (Carbon tax maybe?) people were commenting on old comments that were no longer valid.
        It’s all very confusing.

        I understand why you reposted this article – but that should be introduced as such (at the top) or even better, a new article LINKED to the old one.

        Cheers

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  12. soyabean

    “There’s more politics in sport than there is in politics.”
    So true.

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  13. mrsflash

    I don’t understand the first part of this story. He has to compete against women, because he’s physically a woman. But can’t compete in the Olympics because he doesn’t qualify??? Because he can’t hammer throw as far as another woman. So he’s being discriminated against because, as a woman, he’s not as good as another woman???????

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    • Anonymous

      If Keelin identifies as male then s/he should compete against men! Then s/he wouldn’t have a chance at the Olympics because s/he can’t even qualify as a woman!
      People should accept the gender they are born with, it’s wrong to do all the surgeries and hormones to change your sex. I wasn’t born with the face I think I should have been born with. Doesn’t mean I am going to spend a fortune on plastic surgery though to get it!

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      • soyabean

        Keelin identifies as a man, it is really rude and dehumanising to use the incorrect pronouns, let alone ‘s/he’. I am glad that you’re comfortable identifying as the sex you were born with, but please think about how harrowing and heartbreaking it can often be for trans people.

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      • Oceans

        I actually feel sorry for your ignorance.

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    • Patria

      I agree it doesn’t make sense. How is it discrimination if they don’t qualify?

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      • Cait

        My interpretation is that hes trying to qualify, but if he is excluded on gender basis, there is no opportunity to compete at the olympics like he hoped.

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      • picardie.girl

        The article is not about discrimination that Keelin has experienced so far, rather discussing the possible fall-out if Keelin HAD qualified.

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    • Anna

      There is no discrimination. If you cant throw enough to make the team, you dont qualitfy. This applies to all athletes regardless of gender.

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  14. Alicia

    I’m really interested in reading about this – the article, the comments, the issue… fascinating.

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  15. lil

    Is she a hemaphrodite?

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  16. Mb

    Please anyone correct me if I am wrong, but I’m pretty sure All athletes are tested for testosterone levels as it raises performance.
    If anyone can remember some of the female East German athletes of the early 1980s, with their overly masculine physique, body hair, Adams apples etc, they will know why testosterone is checked.

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  17. Ecidnac

    Spell check *dilemma

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  18. beee

    I have nothing against transgender people but I dont think it’s fair for them to compete against other genders in the Olympics or any sporting comp for that matter. Obviously males are typically faster a stronger than females so it wouldn’t be fair. You can have the surgery and take hormones but you will probably still have the stronger male traits. I know individual circumstances are different but there has to be a “rule” to follow.

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  19. Mollie Sue

    Unless her clitoris is forming into a penis, she should compete with the women.

    Who cares if she’s butch?

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  20. whatahooha

    I find it really hard to get my head around the language… she is, he said, her son, but he’s a female… my head starts spinning.
    check me here: The hammer thrower, who was born a girl, competes against women even though that person thinks of themselves as a man? Have I got that right?
    I hope I’m not offending. It’s just very different to my experience of gender.

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  21. Anonymous

    When the issue of transgender people in sport comes up, the controversy is almost always about someone who was born a man who has started or completed the sex change process. Anyone who has done this will have far higher levels of oestrogen and far lower levels of testosterone than your average man, and in some cases natural born women. So they aren’t on a level playing field with men, and while they may still be stronger than other female athletes, this can is also the case for natural born women competing. Serena Williams for example is significantly physically stronger than the majority of her opponents. Other female athletes are much taller than others. Some naturally have better lung capacity and so on. Sport has never been fair in that sense.

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  22. zepgirl

    Testosterone testing is surely going to be difficult as all hell, some women have higher levels of testosterone, they’re still women!

    Is genetic testing not possible? Surely those with xx chromosomes should compete as women and those with xy as men. Or am I missing something here? I would have thought that gender identity should be put aside, because if someone who is born in a male body but identifies as being female wants to participate as a female in sport it would give them an unfair advantage. Maybe I’m getting the wrong spin on this or just not getting it. Happy for someone to set me straight.

    Having said that, someone born with xxy chromosomes would be a whole different kettle of fish.

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    • Lisa Jensen

      They did used to do chromosome testing, but abandoned it because it was too inconclusive

      From the NY times in 2010…..

      “Some with the male-determining Y chromosome, for example, do not respond to testosterone. They develop as females. Others, genetically female with two X chromosomes, have overdeveloped adrenal glands whose hormones are converted to testosterone. They have high testosterone levels, like men, and ambiguous genitalia.”

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  23. Kathy

    Caster is female. She was born female and has not had any surgery and is not going to have surgery. She has a naturally occuring higher levels of testosterone. This does give her an advantage over other female competitors – just like people with longer legs have an advantage over people with shorter legs wheh it comes to running. She was born that way.

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    • Guest

      People with longer legs do not have an advantage over people with shorter legs at running – where did you get that from? There are loads of shorties – particularly distance runners.

      Caster was born that way but it was certainly not a simple matter of ‘she is female’ – the IAAF took months to decide whether she could compete as a female, after a panel of medical experts considered the test results. Hundreds of reports in newspapers around the world claimed ‘leaked reports’ of male organs alongside female organs being found internally that even she didn’t know about.

      Also, she made incredibly rapid improvements in her racing times – at one point beating her personal best for 800m by 7 seconds in one go (almost unheard of at that level – and therefore rather suspicious), and people were asking the question. Although she was eventually cleared to run as a female by the IAAF, there was nothing straightforward about this case.

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/athletics/8219937.stm

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      • Anonymous

        what male organs are found internally that females don’t already have? genuine question

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  24. Donna S

    This may be something that has to be worked out on a sport by sport basis.
    My sport is judo and theoretically a woman could beat a man of similar size by technique. But when both have the same elite level of technique, strength and conditioning are the deciders. It’s the M>F transgendered athletes that are the problem. All of that extra muscle mass from growing up male. I assume that even with hormone treatment there would still be an advantage. Males fight quite differently to females performing many more big overhead throws simply because it is easier. Women seem to prefer the foot and leg techniques. I’m not sure how that would impact on a transgendered athlete – it certainly would make for an interesting match!

    What about sports like archery or shooting? Can anyone comment on those?

    If a woman was born a female like Semanya and for some reason had high testosterone/whatever levels due to her own body, let her compete as a female. There’s no meddling there.
    Difficult issue though and there will always be someone who will test whatever rules are put in place.

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    • Rachel

      I know I’m replying late to this, but the answer is pretty simple. After enough time on hormones, depending on the person’s age at the start of transition, they will have no more muscle mass than most females do. Testosterone is needed both to develop and maintain muscle. Without it, atrophy occurs and growth anywhere near male levels cannot, so there wouldn’t be any real unfair advantage taking place. They would have to train just as much as non trans women to gain the same amount of muscle. So we’re looking at an issue of time spent on hormones, and then deciding when it would be fair for an MtF athlete to compete, rather than if. If proper standards and regulations are developed and enforced, there shouldn’t be a problem.

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  25. Guest

    I don’t know for sure but am wondering whether the testing for testosterone levels might be due to not being able to distinguish between natural levels and those added artificially – and of course taking more testosterone that you were born with is seen as ‘cheating’. Something similar happens with cycling. In endurance events like cycling a major determinant of sucess is the amount of red blood cells you have. Normal people have (say) a figure of 35 but exceptional individuals have (say) 50 and above. But you can increase your level by taking your blood some time before the race, extracting the blood cells and then reinjecting them. Because they are your cells there is no way a test can find out you’ve done this. Should add that having high levels makes you race better but is dangerous as the blood is thicker hence harder to pump around the body and thus greater chance of a heart attack. What they’ve done in cycling is to choose a ‘safe’ level of blood cells – say 50 – if you have above this level, natural or not, you don’t get to race, if you have 50 or below then the authorities won’t inquire how you got there. So virtually all cyclists have around 50, an outcome with vanishingly small levels of ocurring naturally. It’s an imperfect solution but until testing gets better, probably the best available.

    I’m actually a bit ambivalent about drugs. The advantages a first world country like Australia gives its athletes go way beyond natural talent and are hardly fair to third world athletes so it’s a bit arbitrary to say that drugs are wrong while high altitude training and psychological coaching are not. I’m old enough to remember Ben Johnson’s run and part of me would like to see the performances that an open slather drugs regime could deliver. The obvious argument is that it will damage the athletes but consider that around half of American football players will develop alzheimers at around 50 due to frequent concusssions and many of them are crippled at the end of their careers, outcomes that we seem happy to accept.

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  26. Mum of 2

    Gee whiz, I’m glad I’m not a sporting official who is having to come up with some sort of decision on this!

    I think Testosterone testing sounds like a very slippery slope. With people who were born male or female I think they should compete against the same sex of their birth (although I am wondering how much hormone treatments etc change things? Eg if a transgender individual is using hormone treatment but hasn’t had the actual surgery. Wouldn’t the testosterone doses give them an unfair advantage?).

    With the male events it is easier because it is always going to be a lot harder for a transgender individual, or someone who has lower level of testosterone for any reason to compete and get to the highest level in World Sport (they are just less likely to have the physical strength in most cases to match it with the worlds most fit men). It gets much murkier in the womens events though – what about someone who has had transgender surgery? what about someone who hasn’t had the surgery but has had the hormone treatments? What about someone who was just born with both genitalia? etc. These people, it could be argued, would have an unfair advantage and sport HAS to start out on the most level playing field it can manage to be valid (eg when it looked like some of the swimsuits were giving some swimmers an unfair advantage they banned them so that the playing field was more level – this sort of thing happens all the time in all sorts of sports).

    What’s the line for being male or female? How broad are the amounts of testosterone in people’s systems? Holy cow, this is messy!!

    Like I said, I’m glad I’m not in the sporting official’s shoes. They should make the playing field as level as they can without getting too political, but how they achieve that on this issue? Wow, a difficult one! I’ll leave this one for some genetic scientists/ biologists to contribute on! I simply don’t know enough about it to suggest where the line should be drawn!

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  27. CBR

    This is such a hard question because Olympic sport, or at least the majority, is a test of physical ability. Physical ability. Physical gender is very much a part of it. You can’t change genes.

    I.. yeah, I don’t know.

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  28. Angelina Ballerina

    There was a doco on TV recently about Caster Semenya. The ban on her was lifted and she is free to compete. I’m not sure if she has qualified for the Olympics though.
    I felt really sorry for her. She was born female, has female genitalia, identifies as female and is genetically XX. She just looks masculine, which is probably due to a hormone imbalance.

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  29. kellyexeter

    Interesting article Jamila and whew, you’re not kidding when you say this topic is a minefield. I have been following the Semenya story for a few years and feel nothing but compassion for her and the situation she is in.

    Short answers to your questions:

    Should women be subject to testosterone tests? No way. That’s a minefield guaranteed to line the pockets of sports lawyers the world over, while causing a horrendous amount of hurt and pain to the athletes who have the misfortune to throw up any anomalous results.

    Transgender people at the Olympics once they’ve have gender re-assignment surgery? I don’t think female > male transgenders would face much opposition, but male > female transgenders would never be able to compete in peace.

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  30. KJ

    Very well-written, intelligent and interesting article, Jamila
    Thank you!

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  31. Em

    Interesting article! It’s easy to get caught up in the glitz of the Olympics and forget about these modern issues. No matter the outcome, I can imagine issues of gender and sport will be an ongoing debate for many years to come.

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  32. helen19

    Over the centuries, the Olympic Games standards have had to move with the times. I think it is almost impossible to create the level playing field during any era. Some countries’ athletes have access to superior facilities and coaches, can afford to train fulltime as they are sponsored by the government, other countries’ athletes can’t afford the basic equipment to compete or meet the airfare or accommodation costs to get to the games. Yet they all “have a go”. Even amongst a group of athletes- lets say males, natural hormonal levels vary. Triathletes have to provide a medical history of higher than normal testosterone (if they have this condition) to avoid doping allegations. The science of drug use, diet to maximise performance and gender reassigned athletes complicates the mix even more. And we now have the blade runner competeing in the regular Olympics. Some people say his prosthetic blades give him an advantage. We can’t create a category of “Miscellaneous” for athletes that don’t fit the norm. With the exception of performance enhancing drugs, I say let them all compete within their circumstances/limitations and see what happens.

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  33. Anonymous

    Well, I come from the only Olympic sport that sees men and women competing against one another. And if your response to that is that ‘the horse does all the work’ then your argument is invalid and all you’ve managed to prove is that you’re an idiot.

    It’s wonderful to see men, women and horses all competing together and seriously, you think your sport is exciting … watch some eventing!

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    • Guest

      You may be correct but stating that anyone who has a different view to yours is an idiot and has an invalid argument is not exactly sophisticated debating and tends to confirm the stereotype that athletic ability and intellectual prowess are negatively correlated. Perhaps you could argue the case that the argument is invalid rather than assert that all who hold it are idiots?

      I’m happy to accept that there is athletic skill and exertion involved in controlling the horse although given the very significant strength differences between men and women any sport where they do compete equally suggests that strength is a minor part of determing outcomes. It’s an unfortunate fact of life that in virtually all sports a top level high school or at most university male team will trounce an elite level female one. I’m not sure what this means for transgenered athletes. Perhaps we should accept that all international level athletes with the exception of niche sports such as archery, yachting and perhaps equestrian are exceptional anyway – unless you’ve got the genetic endowment to start with you’ll never get anywhere near the Olypmics – so we shouldn’t get too concerned about people with some male genetics competing as women.

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    • CBR

      Hear hear. I love all of the equestrian events. So egalitarian, and the dressage is an awesome display of talent and strength on the part of both horse AND rider.

      Shame about the Oatley sisters fiasco!

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    • Follyfoot

      Are the horses both male and female?
      I think that is the question?
      Plus, wouldn’t you say the horse does most of the work?
      And don’t say, nay!

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    • Can't wait!

      I can’t wait for the equestrian events in London…it should be amazing!

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  34. Sammie

    No one with a penis should compete against anyone with a vagina, not matter how much they identify as a woman. I am sorry. Male muscle mass and testosterone gives them an unfair advantage and to let them compete against biologically “real” women would be extremely unfair on these women who have been training all their lives and should be allowed a level playing field.

    I am sorry if this is rough on transgender people but hey this is sport. Let’s be fair.

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    • Susan

      I think the real problem is that is not usually that simple.

      From memory the Semenya girl has grown up her entire life believing she was female. I’m not sure the results were ever articulated in the media, but it may be that while she doesn’t have a penis -but maybe she has undescended testes. If so clearly she is going to have a lot more testosterone running around in her body than the average variation in most other women.

      So should she and other people like her not be able to compete? And if so, where? It’s an extremely grey area…

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    • Guest

      Sammie, you have no idea what you are talking about.
      Brash statements like yours are not helpful.
      I encourage you to do some research into topics such as “intersex” or “disorders of sexual development” before using blanket statements.
      You do not know Keelin’s journey.

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    • Anonymous

      Can you please not use the term “real” women. Women born with a vagina and identify as women are called cis gendered and they are only as much of a “real” women as trans* women.

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      • Sammie

        Ok, definition of female? Some one with XX chromosomes. Male = XY. Simple.

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        • Guest

          Unfortunately for some Sammie, it still is not that simple. There are a surprising number of variations. This is a sensitive issue that you clearly don’t understand. Please tread lightly.

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        • Another guest

          Jamie Lee Curtis for instance is widely rumoured to be XXY – does she count as ‘female’ for your definition? She is hardly masculine and (not that it’s really anyone’s business) and sees herself and others see her as fully female but presumably you think she should be classed as a man? As others have said it’s not always that simple.

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          • Sammie

            Rumoured? Find me a study published in a peer reviewed journal rather than dig up “rumours” that likely appeared in a gossip mag and I might be convinced.

            I am not a biologist but I would think a DNA test would establish if someone is male or female. As I said, XX or XY. Anything inbetwen, does the person have a penis or a vagina.

            This is sport, people. You need rules and guidelines, not political correctness.

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            • a

              This is life, Sammie. You need manners not ignorance.

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            • Another guest

              I don’t believe Jamie Lee Curtis’s case has ever appeared in a peer reviewed journal so have to confess that I am making the whole thing up. In fact nor do XXY people exist, it was a total fabrication. Everyone without exception is either XY or XX.

              And just to clarify, the above is sarcasm. Jamie Lee was intended to provide an example of someone who is seen as full female but may not be according to your simplistic view of the world. It doesn’t really matter if she is or is not unless you seriously have the view that XXY people do not exist.

              But I suspect you weren’t really being serious or at least I hope not.

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      • Sammie

        Also, we are not talking about identity. We are talking about biology.

        If someone who is biologically male is allowed to compete against women because s/he identifies as female, well good for him/her but that is unfair.

        Just, sorry.

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        • Guest Again

          Sammie,
          I don’t know why I continue to debate with you, but I feel that your year 8 understanding of biology is the problem. Not just yours, but society at large.
          As mentioned before, there are many variations to what constitutes a female and a male. Yes, I agree with you that it is more than mere identity.
          There are a vast array of conditions that blur the lines of ‘sex’
          AIS for instance, where the woman has female external genetalia, yet XY chromosomes. The testes in her body produce testosternone, but it is converted in her body to estrogen… Should she compete as a male or a female.
          This is just one of the many, many conditions that exist out there.
          As for Jamie Lee Curtis – why would she make her biological records public, when there still remains so much ignorance on this subject.
          Again, Sammie, I implore your to tread lightly until you have done some proper research.

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          • Sh

            There has always been issues such as this in women’s sport, and many fascinating high profile cases:

            http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/the-10-most-shocking-olympic-gender-scandals

            I think it’s okay to ask questions and get these things investigated in any professional sport, given as Guest again says, the range of possibilities out there.

            After all, no woman wants to compete against someone with an unfair biological advantage. That would be pointless.

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          • Sammie

            Another guest, according to my year 8 biology XXY syndrome is a genetic abnormality affecting males. It produces males with feminine characteristics, not women with male characteristics.

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            • Guest

              Sammie, I did not bring xxy into the conversation, as it is but one genetic disorder of sexual development. There are many other types. The only point I wish to convey to you and anyone else who may be reading, is you need to approach questions of gender with caution and compassion. It is not a black and white area, rather a highly sensitive one.

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          • soyabean

            I am loving your answers :)

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            • Guest

              Thank you. You’ve made my day. :)

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  35. Collette

    Great article.

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