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Manpreet Kaur These men were provoked to kill their wives.

Manpreet Kaur, had her throat slit by her husband. He served six years in prison.

Garry Mills lives in Ipswich, just outside of Brisbane. Mills was convicted of strangling his wife Jolene with an extension cord until she died. He then wrapped her body in garbage bags and buried her in the bush.

He served five years in prison.

Damian Sebo bludgeoned his former girlfriend Taryn Hunt to death. Taryn was 16-years-old when she died, but Damian was sentenced to only eight years in prison.

Taryn’s mother Jennifer explained that ‘the impact was so great it shattered the back of her skull, and radiated all the way through to the frontal lobes.’

Chamanjot Singh slit the throat of his wife Manpreet Kaur, despite her begging him for mercy. She eventually bled to death from the eight different wounds he inflicted on her body. Singh served six years in prison.

And Peter Keogh who stabbed his ex-partner Vicki Cleary, resulting in her death severed a prison sentence of just three years and 11 months. Keogh was still covered in Vicki’s blood when he told the police that he had been ‘provoked’.

Each of these men would have been convicted of murder but instead they served prison sentences for the lesser crime of manslaughter. Why? Because they were ‘provoked’ by the women they went on to kill.

60 Minutes reported on Sunday night that:

PRESENTER, TARA BROWN: The provocation defence is a legal relic that is centuries old. The question is: does it have any place in modern Australia? Because all too often it’s being used as an excuse by a man who kills a woman because of something she is alleged to have said or done. And because she is dead, we have only his word to rely on. Clearly he has the most to gain by blaming his victim, ruining her reputation, making sure she is the one on trial.

Screen shot 2012 08 29 at 4.32.44 PM These men were provoked to kill their wives.

Vicki Cleary was stabbed dozens of times. Her killer served less than 4 years.

WOMEN’S RIGHTS CAMPAIGNER, PHIL CLEARY: It’s a fallacy to think that the killing is just about a person being out of control. So often the killing of women is a ruthless revenge killing. Revenge for the woman asserting her human rights like her desire to be free of a man, for example.

TARA: Women’s rights campaigner Phil Cleary knows what it’s like to lose a loved one in a brutal crime, only to be told she provoked her killer. His sister Vicki was killed by ex-partner Peter Keogh, as she arrived at work in a Melbourne kindergarten. How many times did he stab her?

PHIL: Oh, he would have stabbed her at least a dozen times – he stabbed her in the face, he stabbed her in the stomach several times, I think there’d be four or five serious wounds to her stomach, and the one that pierced her stomach and cut her liver was the one that ended her life.

TARA BROWN: Soon after, Keogh, still covered in Vicki’s blood, claim she provoked him by swearing at him – an excuse the jury accepted. He got just three years and 11 months in gaol.

PHIL: Could anyone believe he would get three years and 11 months in jail? Of course not.

TARA BROWN: How is it that 12 jurors think that that behaviour is acceptable?

PHIL: The reality is that jurors seem to fall for the lie that women are bad, that women are provocative. And sadly, this is told again and again in courtrooms across Australia.

Provocation has been abolished as a defence in Tasmania, Victoria and Western Australia. NSW is currently holding a parliamentary inquiry into the law and one of the questions that has been raised is should the defence of provocation be abolished.

Mamamia spoke to Betty Green, Chair of the NSW Domestic Violence Committee Coalition, who had this to say:

Killings on a background of domestic violence are distinctly different than other homicides and as such should be treated differently. We do know that the killing of women by current or former partners is not an occasional occurrence, or a phenomenon that happens once in a while.

Jolene Mills These men were provoked to kill their wives.

Jolene Mills was strangled with an extension cord.

In Australia on average 76 women are killed annually by an intimate partner. In fact women are 9 times more likely to be killed by an intimate partner than by a stranger. Sobering thought isn’t it?

When men kill an intimate partner it is usually linked to jealousy, revenge and honour. There is an established history of violence and there is an escalation of the violence.

These facts challenge the popular myths and misconceptions we as a community may hold about the circumstances that lead to the death of a woman in domestic violence. Media often describe the killings as being “out of the blue”, “a brain snap” or a “loss of control”.

In reality this is not the case.

There is too much evidence from research that tells us that the killing of women in intimate relationships occurs where there is a history of violence by the perpetrator against the victim; jealousy, separation and women’s attempts to leave the relationship, infidelity either perceived or actual, substance abuse, threats and the use of weapons, especially knives and guns.

The defence of provocation rests on allegations that the man has been “humiliated, insulted, mocked or spurned”. The very idea of these allegations comes from a long gone era when men carried lethal weapons and acted in accordance with a code of honour which required insult to be responded to by instant retaliation as an act of restoration.

The sentence for murder was death, which is why the defence of provocation was introduced so that defendants could claim they were provoked by word or action that caused offence.

We believe in out modern society this is wrong.

Over to you. Should a person’s conviction be reduced from murder to manslaughter if they were ‘provoked’ into killing someone?

White Ribbon report that men and women experience violence differently: “Men are much less likely than women to be subject to violent incidents in the home and are more likely to be assaulted in public places. Violence against men is far more likely to be by strangers and far less likely to involve partners or ex-partners. Of all the violence men experience, far less is represented by domestic violence (less than 1 percent, versus one-third of violent incidents against women). Boys and men are most at risk of physical harm, injury and death from other boys and men, but small numbers are subject to violence by women.”

 

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107 Comments so far

  1. Anonymous

    What about homosexual advance used to invoke the provocation defence? Surely that’s the most deplorable aspect of it?

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  2. Anonymous

    I think everyone needs to keep in mind the deplorable use of the provocation defence for homosexual advance as well as men killing their female partners

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  3. Anonymous

    I know someone has already pointed this out but if you’re going to write an article about a criminal law issue, it’s probably a good idea to get [experienced] criminal defence and Crown (if the ODPP allows it) counsel to give their opinion.

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  4. Dkmum

    And here I was thinking this would be an article about abused middle eastern women being stoned or similar… Shocking!!!

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  5. Emma

    Hi Mamamia, just a typo needing fixing – pretty sure “severed” should read “served”! Thanks.

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  6. Jude

    I believe if you claim provocation then your sentence should be even longer! It proves that you are incredibly unstable and not able to make rational judgements and react in a controlled way to whatever unhappiness is happening in your relationship. These sort of men are way more dangerous!! It proves they can flip out at the slightest thing and kill. Not the sort of person I want walking free in society.

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    • Anonymous

      I hadnt thought of that until now, but yes, you’re absolutely right. Almost premeditates the murder!

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  7. Cam

    5 YEARS for killing your missus !?

    …Which arsebackward tribe is currently farking up the Australian Judicial System !?

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  8. Sarah

    You know if someone kills their spouse they should be banned for life from having any future wife or partners. If someone kill someone drink driving the judge can ban them for 10 years. Need to protect future spouses.

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  9. Izzy

    Doesn’t this go for men as well?
    When a wife is provoked and she kills her husband she is labelled as having battered-wive syndrome.

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    • MJ

      I think that defense only works when there is proof (eg xrays that show years of fractures) that the husband has been beating the shit out of the wife for years and years. It’s not some ‘get of jail free card’ that any woman can just use because they’re a woman, if that’s what you’re attempting to suggest.

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      • Q

        Battered woman syndrome is very different from provocation. It is more like self defence. The reason why battered woman syndrome is not just run as self defence is because often battered woman kill while the man is asleep or there is no imminent threat. The legal requirement for self defence is an imminent threat and even if a woman has been subjected to years of abuse, if the man is not assaulting her at the moment of killing the defence doesn’t legally work.

        Provocation is the same – the victim has to have just provoked them – it cannot have happened at a prior time before the killing.

        Battered women don’t fall into either category which is why it has been a controversial defence. Personally I think battered woman syndrome is a much more legitimate defence and provocation is a relic of times when women had very few rights.

        I’m a lawyer who studied this extensively and find the use of these defences interesting.

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    • Aims

      Do you really need to have the glaringly obvious differences between battered wives syndrome and provocation (“humiliated, insulted, mocked or spurned”) explained to you?

      I find your comment ignorant and offensive.

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  10. kiks

    I am a bit surprised that neither you nor 60 minutes have done any proper research into this topic isn’t that a fundamental part of being a journalist? You will find that in 2011 the Criminal Code was amended in QLD limiting the use of verbal provocation as a defence. One of the reasons this happened was the community outrage at Damien Sebo’s sentence. You would find that if this happened today he would be in jail for a much longer time. It is pathetic that you just cut an paste stories from other news sources to make your own story! I know the point of this was to evoke community outrage at this legal loophole but here in QLD there was outrage in 2005 and as a result the law changed. I would hope in the future that this will happen in the states where the law still exists. Very bad and sloppy journalism by both you and your source, 60mins

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    • Anonymous

      “Provocation has been abolished as a defence in Tasmania, Victoria and Western Australia. NSW is currently holding a parliamentary inquiry into the law and one of the questions that has been raised is should the defence of provocation be abolished.”
      I think it is wonderful that the issue was addressed in QLD. Thank you for sharing that information. I look forward to NSW catching up as a result of the current parliamentary inquiry.

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  11. manda rainbird

    An excuse to murder – disgusting!

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  12. Pip73

    Such an archaic law that should really be abolished!

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  13. jamilarizvi

    Comments on this post have been closed at 5.00pm 30 August 2012 because moderators will not be available this evening. Comments will re-open at 8.00am 31 August 2012.

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  14. Katie

    Mamamia, I would love to see you quoting some bright legal minds on this issue rather than the sensationalist 60 minutes. Maybe this issue isn’t as black and white as you portray it to be…

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    • Pip73

      So Katie if it’s not as black and white as it seems, is it still ok for these “Men” to have killed their wives/girlfriends and take the “I was provoked clause” as an easy way out of a harsher sentence?

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      • Katie

        well obviously I can’t answer that question, because this issue isn’t completely black and white…like i said…

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  15. beachgirl

    When did we become a society of people that didn’t take responsibility for our own actions- last I checked we all had free will, and a brain to make decisions- its what separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom. It’s ridiculous that men like this don’t pay for their crimes.

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  16. G.Sims

    Sad! Pathetic! Despicable! How can this be true in Australia of all places? Is this a ‘sensitive topic’ for Politicians to discuss before an Election? Pretty soon there will be even lesser time served.

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  17. Bradley

    For the record, I don’t buy the provocation defence.

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    • Yar

      Me either when it comes to crime and violence.
      However, you are being rather provocative on here today.

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      • Bradley

        Well I hope that I’m provoking thoughts, questions and debate.

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  18. Mum of 2 cheeky monkeys

    What really worries me about this law is that we put violent offenders back into society earlier because they were provoked. If someone is easily provoked into committing a brutal act of murder mshouldnt that be a good reason to keep them behind bars for longer? What are we thinking will happen when they get out and are provoked again?

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  19. Caz Gibson

    Self-defence is the only time that manslaughter should be considered.
    These men mentioned in this article should rot in jail for life – and I mean LIFE.
    Religious “honour killings” are not honourable – they’re sick, self-indulgent, crimes carried out by arrogant, vain, fanatics who’ve found a convenient loophole to escape justice.
    As I said…….Life should mean LIFE.

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    • Yar

      Sadly not enough jails and not enough room in jails to accommodate them for long enough. That’s why sentences are short. And don’t get me started on that ‘suspended sentence’ BS!
      Budget headlines are about health, roads, education, families – not justice or crime prevention. Write to your local MP about it.

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      • Cait

        Its interesting you say that. it costs the average taxpayer approx $100 to keep an offender in Gaol for a year. I would certainly pay more tax to have violent offenders locked up for longer!

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        • Yar

          That is a less known fact about costs to keep an offender in prison for a year.
          But no, not many funds are allocated to building new prisons. It doesn’t make for sexy headlines in Budgets.

          As I said, write to your local MP about it. They need to hear from constituents more.

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        • Rasa

          Um, I think you would find it is $100 A DAY (minimum) per prisoner.

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          • Dkmum

            But if the cost is spread out on all tax payers it might make sense that we’re each paying $100/year to ‘maintain’ prisoners.
            I have no knowledge of the matter, just making sense of the maths in the two comments.

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        • aims

          I am sure a hole in the groundwould be cheaper, self confessed murderers deserve the death penalty.

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  20. D

    According to feminists, men are the cause of all evil in the world. Its sad that feminists are so ignorant.

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  21. D

    No wonder so women fear and hate men, when feminists routinely write articles promoting hate of men.

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  22. nikki

    i was shocked to read not long ago that men can defend themselves that their violence toward homosexual men has been caused by the ‘panic of being come on to’ or something. this was in qld from memory.
    so in dom violence cases they can defend themselves with the old ‘i was provoked’ too ? bravo Australia, these are things that i expect from “modern” countries like Turkey and Algeria who struggle with the implication of women rights for reasons of religious bigotry. . in Australia, it has NO PLACE.

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  23. AmandaroseI

    provocation should play some role if the provocation is illegal. an example could be someone who is subject to domestic violence over long period of time. Or someone raped you or you just found out they molested think it should be taken into account when sentencing but they should still be punished.

    But threatening to leave someone or asking for divorce is not illegal and this should not be construed as provocation .

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    • Cait

      Provocation does not have to apply to protect someone who had experienced years of domestic violence. That is what the attribution of ‘battered wife syndrome’ is responsible for.

      My understanding is that the two concepts are exclusive and BWS does not need to rely on the defence of provocation. Interestingly BWS can prove to be a full defence to the crime if the evidence stacks up, therefore little to no time served.

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  24. Yar

    I want to repy to Trog’s response to me (below) but the reply link is missing :( Why?

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    • Natalia

      At a certain point there are too many replies to the comment already to reply further – maybe leave your comment here instead :)

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      • Yar

        OK, I didn’t realise Natalia.

        * My reply to Trog’s comment at 11.17am (below) *

        I do not care if the perpetrator or the victim has a ‘bratwurst’ or a ‘donut’ as their equipment.

        Provocation should be abolished.

        We are in agreement.

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  25. Bradley

    I think that the implications of this article are loud and clear.

    Only men commit the act of murder.

    Only men cite provocation as their reason for having committed the crime.

    Laughable and false.

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    • Cait

      I have to agree with you that there is an undercurrent of man bashing (even if unintended).

      I commented some weeks ago about my partner being assaulted by his ex partner, and that there was a court case against her etc, and the ex had a history of violence towards him. Many of the comments were ‘why didnt he change his number’, ‘why didnt he _____’. Its classic victim blaming.

      How about ‘all violence is wrong’ people?

      Dont paint one gender as a victim (many of us females resent it), and one as brute (I can see why men resent that!).

      Overall Im glad that provocation is being seriously looked at as a pathetic attempt at an excuse, however overall we just need to look at violence as abhorrent and punish the offenders accordingly – regardless of what junk they have below.

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      • Mum of 2 cheeky monkeys

        I was actually thinking about this as I read the article. Is there a gender bias written into the law? As in does it specifically say men can use provocation but women can’t? I am curious if a woman has ever used it as a defense? Obviously DV is unacceptable, male, female, chimpanzee, I don’t care. I understand that more women do face DV, so maybe that’s why the article didn’t explain the point better, but in order to put this into some context can anyone qualify whether or not this law actually states men can use provocation as a defense but females can’t, or has it just never happened before so there were no specific examples like the ones above to draw on?

        BTW that is really awful for your partner. Hope he’s ok now.

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        • Bradley

          There is no excuse for domestic violence.

          End of story.

          I’m actually not fond of any brand of violence.

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          • Mum of 2 cheeky monkeys

            Was that response to me Bradley? I wholeheartedly agree, (as in my comment) that violence is wrong. No question. I was actually interested in the point of law because it seems strange that this article suggests only men are ‘provokable’. I was curious if the same law would apply to a woman.

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        • Cait

          In answer to your question, i have done a bit of digging. There isnt a gender bias written into the law per se, it is simply that a women has not successfully attempted that defence where she is the Defendant.

          I found an interesting paper about it here, http://eprints.utas.edu.au/1045/6/Bradfield_ch5.pdf if you are interested.

          Realistically i think its a social issue. I think realistically people are programmed to believe that one person ‘deserved it’ more than another, depending on the circumstances, and (it appears) depending on the gender.

          Thank you for your kind words regarding my partner though. Its clearly an ingrained bias, because even the police first on the scene asked if he did something to deserve it.

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          • Mum of 2 cheeky monkeys

            Wow. That’s ridiculous. The “you were asking for it defense,” how unfeeling of those police officers. That attitude needs to change.

            I wonder how many men actually report DV? Interestingly, I read an article about rape stats in the US- cant remember the exact stats but the gist of it was that nearly all reported rape cases in adults are female victims. There are actually many men that get raped but don’t report it. (of course many women don’t either, but this article suggested it was even more of an issue with men). Makes you wonder if there is more DV against men that isn’t reported because of out dated gender stereotypes.

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    • Yar

      Bradley, I normally agree with you but don’t in this case.

      “Only men commit the act of murder?” -> Where is that implied?
      I think it is implied it is more common, which it is. Men are more often victims of other men. Sometimes women kill men. Sometimes women kill women and even children sadly. Some men kill children. Those are different articles. This article is about domestic violence victims who go on to be murdered by partners who use ‘provocation’ to reduce it to manslaughter.

      “Only men cite provocation as their reason for having committed the crime.” -> I’d suggest that IF that is the case, their lawyers advise them to. Most juries wouldn’t accept self-defence of a man against a woman. That’s not to say it doesn’t happen, just how these cases tend to play.

      The 4 examples are of men killing women. The final grey box about White Ribbon’s report explains it all really. This kind of sh!t needs to stop, whether victims are women, men or children.

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      • Bradley

        Hello Yar. As I read it, the implication is in the title of the article. Only half the issue is presented. It is well documented that both men and women can commit the act of murder. The provocation defence is not solely a feminist issue. It is a whole of society issue and should be presented as such.

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        • vanessayoung

          The sentence begins “of all the violence men experience”, Bradley. Do you just wake up determined to be offended? Men kill more women than women kill men. This is a FACT of life, women do kill men, beat men, verbally abuse men but not as often. In order to include these issues, the article would have to be the length of a small book. This is one aspect of a large and complex issue. Why not write an article yourself, instead of trotting out the same old dreary and deliberately confrontational responses?

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          • Bradley

            Hello Vanessa. I disagree that the article would have had to be the length of a book. There are dozens of examples of men and women murderers who have used this defence. All I had to do was Google.

            And if my suggesting balance be addressed on issues that affect us all offends you, then I regret to advise that you will have to be offended as I will continue to suggest and request.

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            • vanessayoung

              You do not offend me. I just wonder why you feel called on to keep returning to this page when its ideas and pro woman stance offends you so much. I feel you are taking advantage of the moderator’s courtesy. They will not ban you despite how often you have skated so close to breaking the “dinner party rules” because they do not want to be seen as biased, but you are so quick to jump on the slightest reference to the world treating some women unfairly. While we can all agree that killing is wrong for any reason there is a great deal of difference between a woman killing a man who abuses her over a long period of time and a man killing a woman because she wants to leave him. Finally, can I just say, you can not escape the numbers, no matter how hard you try. More women are killed by men than men are killed by women all over the world. The fact that men have been killed by women sometime somewhere does not make the women mentioned in this article any less dead.

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            • Bradley

              Vaness, when I break the dinner party rules my comment is deleted. We both have strong opinions, but If you feel that my opinion goes against those rules, then ask for me to be shown the door. I guarantee you that I would never consider shutting anyone down because we agree to disagree.

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    • Natalia

      Bradley, as Bec has said below – just because we are highlighting an issue doesn’t mean that we are saying it doesn’t happen in reverse.

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      • Cait

        Natalia, I get what you are saying, but if you are highlighting lax sentences of *both* offending genders, then why not include the story of Jian Chen getting just 3 years for severing her ex’s penis which resulted in his death?

        Clearly she had malice just as much as the men listed above, and will also serve a ridiculously short amount of time in Gaol for taking another’s life.

        Given that the Chen case is doing the media rounds, I thought it would be a ‘given’ in an unbiased piece on lax sentencing of violent offenders.

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        • Natalia

          Interesting point Cait and I was certainly fascinated by that case. This article is based only on the 60 mins story, hence why that case was not included.

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          • Bradley

            You constantly “update” articles throughout the day. Perhaps it would be interesting to include this case should an update occur.

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            • Natalia

              Unfortunately it wouldn’t be entirely relevant as the woman in the case didn’t use the provocation defence – according to the SMH, her sentence was reduced from murder to manslaughter “because she was suffering from a ‘substantial impairment’ of the mind at the time of the killing” – and this article is ultimately about provocation.

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            • Yar

              Why the “inverted commas” Bradley?

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            • Bradley

              Typo’s, Yar. Sent the comment and system wouldn’t allow an edit.

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          • Cait

            Natalia, why would you regurgitate a 60 minutes story, when there is a clear opportunity to add more value with the recent events, and a wider picture of how rife domestic violence is?

            Mamamia has an opportunity to explore a wide and important issue, but is instead settling with a transcript from last weekends 60 minutes?

            Im not usually a detractor from what MM does, but this really just seems like a beatup, and an opportunity missed.

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      • Bradley

        Hi Nat. May I ask, why not highlight the whole of the issue rather than just part of it ? It took me less than a few minutes to Google and find quite a number of examples of women murdering, both males and females, and then using the provocation defence.

        Murder is an issue that can affect anyone at any time regardless of gender.

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        • jamilarizvi

          Bradley, Cait,

          Thanks both for your comments. A couple of points in response.

          Firstly, running a story about four women who were brutally murdered and whose killers served only a few years in prison each is not a ‘beat up’.

          Secondly, highlighting the experience and nature of violence against women doesn’t take away from the fact that men also experience violence. That’s an absurd argument.

          That’s like saying that if we run a story about poverty in the Sudan, that we obviously don’t care about poverty experienced by those living in Australia. Both issues matter but there are different factors at play and talking about one doesn’t make the other any more or less important.

          Thirdly, this is a women’s website. We unashamedly cover issues that affect women. We’ve done that here.

          Fourthly, one thing I’d like to point out (and in fact was hoping to do an article on in the future) is that the provocation defence is most commonly criticised in relation to cases where men kill other men because of a homosexual advance.

          We didn’t go into that here because it is a whole other aspect of the law, which would need a separate post to do it justice.

          Cheers,

          Jamila

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          • Bradley

            Hello Jamila. Constantly we are advised that a feminist is a person who cares about the whole of society receiving fair and equitable treatment regardless of gender, sexual orientation and religion.

            As this site loudly and proudly promotes a feminist mantra, surely it therefore is not strictly a site for women only ? There are vast numbers of men who are interested in discussing issues that affect everyone. This issue at hand is one of them.

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            • Bradley

              System won’t allow edit.

              If as you say, it would require another article to cover this entire issue, I for one would welcome the opportunity to read such an article in the not too distant future.

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            • Sarah McM

              Bradley, if you don’t like the issues Mia and the team choose to cover, there’s nothing preventing you from starting your own website and covering whatever you want. You don’t get to dictate what issues a women’s website covers – and I note Jamila said *women’s* website, not feminist website.

              Go start your own if you want to see articles about the issues you want covered, instead of whinging and demanding here.

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            • Bradley

              So this isn’t a feminist site, Sarah ?

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            • manda

              Bradley as Jamila pointed out this is written for women but nowhere did she state ONLY women are welcome. Men can freely read and comment as you have. You dont need to go labelling a site feminist… it is what it is – a place women (or men) can read things that they may wish to know about from a womens point of view.

              Good job mamamia – i enjoy reading all of your articles about a range of subjects!

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            • Sarah McM

              The salient point, Bradley, is that Mia & Co are the ones who get the content – not you. So if you don’t like it, find a site with content you like better, or start your own.

              You don’t get to dictate what content is loaded here, because (a) it’s not your site, and (b) this site is primarily written, as Jamila said, for women, of which I assume from your name you are not one.

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          • Cait

            Hi jamilla,

            Thanks for your support. I suppose i was just hoping to eventually see a really balanced article about DV for a change. I know that the majority of reported cases (even those resulting in death) are where the victims are women.

            Realistically I was hoping that MM could add to the conversation what 60 minutes didnt.

            Obviously the provocation defence is one aspect in DV, but its only a small piece of the puzzle. This defence is not often an option in many cases, yet the ‘justice’ is lacking in the vast majority.

            Anyway, just my two cents on the matter, I just think that DV needs to be seen on equal footing to have the detractors eventually take it seriously.

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          • FHB

            Jamilia…

            “That’s like saying that if we run a story about poverty in the Sudan, that we obviously don’t care about poverty experienced by those living in Australia”

            Maybe, but if day after day, article after article you only write about female-victim man-perpetrator it stops being a one off and starts being a one sided hypothesis.

            You once wrote an article I’m a feminists why aren’t you. You can add to list of reasons why I am not, the fact that feminists represent the actions of society in a disproportionate manner. I’m sorry but you simply cannot in all fairness and logic purport to be the arbiters of all things equality and deliberately paint one side of a picture.

            The largest study in the history of mankind done on domestic violence shows that women are the initiators of violence at all ends of extremity half the time.

            One thing we learn is men do not report domestic violence at anywhere near the rates females do, they are not taken seriously when reporting and are often scaled back from reports to simple avos.

            Men are less like to secure a removal of an accused female and they are less likely to win a conviction. When convicted the female perpetrator will less likely get a comparable sentence.

            Even after all of that men according to the ABS are 28.9% of female perpetrated victims. That’s nearly one in three, not a 1% or some minimal margin.

            But the complete discourse on men being the perpetrator and women ONLY being the victims is almost omnipresent.

            This invariably leads to cognitive bias and statements such as “seriously, what problems do men face” – from a feminist, which in itself is a massive problem when you start to believe what you superficially see, but no further.

            To you it’s probably just another article, but to the guy who’s to afraid to leave his wife because she will take the kids, the house and poison him, it’s just another reason he KNOWS no one will believe him when he comes forward, which he probably wont.

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  26. Rachael

    The interesting thing about provocation is that domestic abusers use this excuse all through out their relationships to justify their behaviour not just to try and get off murder convictions. My ex husband used this one all the time ie “you just made me so mad, I just lost it” or “your made me do it”.

    The interesting thing is, my now current husband has never said anything of the sort to me and finds me extremely easy to live with.

    We are not talking about well balanced people here. My ex husband used to snap if I made a simple error or forgot something. This is not provocation, this is human nature. Provocation is just an excuse so that they do not have to take respionsibility for their own disgusting actions and for some reason, societry seems to make allowances for this. I can’t believe that a developed country like Australia, still tolerates this sort of behaviour. It is appalling.

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  27. Joey

    Women kill men frequently and receive little to no jail time. The case yesterday where Jian Chen cut off her ex’s penis, resulting in his death and got 3 years.
    There are two sides to every coin and just to portray women as the sole custodians of injustice is unfair.

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    • Yar

      “Women kill men frequently ” ?

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  28. kitten

    In WA at the moment whilst they have removed provacation they have replaced it with one punch manslaughter which was brought in for pub brawls where death was not an expected outcome. 6 men have been charged and convicted with this including i think 2 cases were the attack was sustained over several days yet according to courts one punch killed them. they get around 3 years for this. it seems our society is unwilling to prosecute domestic violence deaths. The case of saory jones that was on four corners was prosecuted as one punch and i think bradley jones got less than 3 years and is already trying to get custody of his children one of which witnessed her mother being killed.

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  29. Lizi

    A typo in this thought provoking article. ‘severed’ should be ‘served’?

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  30. Jess

    Her name is Vicki Cleary, not Vicky Clear.

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  31. Meee

    I think the difference with the cases above and a lot of the cases people compare them to involving women as the perpertrator (I say a lot, not ALL), is that the cases above involve men reacting to a single instance, rather than long term systematic abuse. 2 very very different crimes. To have a law that suggests that if we upset our men they then have the right to discipline us, or even kill, is not just unethical but flat out worrying and ugly. We teach our kids that it is wrong to get drawn into a fight, that it is wrong to hit back, that it is better to walk away and then send them into a world where the courts rap people over the knuckles for violent crimes. The report on 60 minutes this week appalled and saddened me.

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  32. Anonymous

    I do think the piece would have had more weight if you’d had a solicitor or barrister weigh in on the provocation defence, Mamamia.

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  33. Jess88

    My partner is working with a man who strangled his wife to death with a 5ft length of tie-wire he just *happened* to have in his pocket at the time, he escaped a murder charge because – get this – the VICTIM’s family wrote a statement saying that she would have provoked him. Crazy.

    I don’t think provocation is a defense, in any circumstance, whether it’s men being violent to women or women being violent to men. If a person can be provoked into killing someone then they have some serious issues going on in their own heads. Just another type of victim blaming to me.

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    • Anon76

      I agree Jess88. If someone was provoked by a slur or some name calling and the jury found killing the person who said this to them was an appropriate response, what does that say to our children? What about the sledges and slurs sports people dish out to each other on the field? Are we to expect an appropriate response would be to beat the offending player to death? What about kids who call each other names or kids who are bullied? Are we to expect then, that an appropriate response to this would be to kill the said bully? No. We don’t accept violence in retaliation to name calling or verbal abuse, yet the courts are bascially saying that it’s actually ok, that it’s actually an appropriate response. Hypocrisy much????

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  34. Anon

    Why do you have such warped gender based reporting of crime on here. One third of partner murder in australia is women killing their men.

    An alien viewing this site would think we live on a planet where men are all evil and women alwayd victims.

    I know this is a female targeted site, but that surely doesnt translate into only caring about crimes and injustice against women does it.

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    • becsparrow

      Hi Anon

      Is that stat correct that 1/3 of partner murder is women killing men?

      And I wonder how many of those are cases of self defence or where there have been years of domestic violence?

      I suspect the number of cases of women killing men (where this is no history of domestic violence or assault) is fairly small. But I could be wrong.

      It would be interesting to read up on it. I’ll go see if I can find anything ….

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      • rivkah

        Hi Bec, the Australian Institute of Criminology collects these stats.

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      • Trog

        Bec, love your work normally, but why are you prepared to build a suppositional case in support of murdering women, but you’re not prepared to do the same for murdering men?

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        • becsparrow

          Hi Trog,

          Here’s what concerns me. Just because we are highlighting an issue doesn’t mean that we are saying it doesn’t happen in reverse.

          Nobody is saying for a moment that women don’t kill men in unprovoked attacks. That would be stupid. Of course there are cases – and plenty of them – where women have behaved in a heinous and evil fashion.

          But this story is on this particular law. And what we know (though I don’t have stats in front of me) is that more women are killed by men. More women are the victims of this crimes of passion (so to speak).

          As a website for women which focuses on women’s issues, then yes, this is a natural story for us to feature on Mamamia.

          But us running this post does not mean we are saying “Men are never the victims.” You are connecting dots that don’t exist.

          Know what I mean?

          But if you feel that we are truly doing an injustice to men and you would like to see a post whereby we talk about spousal abuse (from a man’s perspective) … I would sincerely welcome that post.

          Perhaps we could do a post in the future about women who perpetrate domestic violence against men? The numbers would be small (I think, I don’t know) but it would still be an important story to tell.

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          • Trog

            Hi Bec,

            I don’t feel victimised by this article. Just engaging in the debate.

            Men are always going to be murderous more frequently.

            But, I think that the implication of this article and your commentary (women act in self-defense) is that the provocation defense should be available to women, but not to men.

            Whether the provocation defence is worthy or open to abuse is a separate thing, but I feel that if the provocation defence is available, then it should be equally available.

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            • Yar

              Provocation and self-defence are NOT the same thing. Provocation implies the victim enraged the person into killing, or that they ‘asked for it’.
              Self-defence is the act where one person kills, otherwise it’d have been their own life taken. Not the same thing.

              This provocation excuse means no one is ever safe to leave their partner in case the reaction is so extreme that they “cause” their partner to kill them, resulting in manslaughter.

              Would it be OK to extend this to road rage? That should be the test. He cut me off in traffic… so I choked him. Sorry, people who fly into that kind of murderous rage should be locked away for a long time. Provocation suggests that he’s / she’s normally a lovely, decently law abiding person living a decent life, except for this ‘one off’ occasion. Non-psychos do not ‘snap’ or ‘lose control’. Most people learn to cope with rejection, the end of a relationship, a little jealousy. We may not like it. We may argue and cry and bitch about it, but you know not to be violent, assault, end another human being’s life. The ones who go that far need to be locked away.

              This article happens to have cases where women ‘provoked’ male partners because it is more common. I don’t think the author is saying all (or most) men are evil.
              It’s about needless tragic deaths caused by the hand of another, where the victim is blamed. We all have the right to be safe and free. These women were denied that.

              Let’s not focus too much on the gender issue here; yes, it is slanted more towards men carrying this out because it is more frequent. And no, that doesn’t exclude the reverse.

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            • Trog

              Hi Yar,

              My point was that you can’t always assume that women have killed in self-defence. But, that’s kind of off to the side of what I’m trying to say. Here is an article published yesterday:

              http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/woman-jailed-for-killing-ex-mutilating-his-penis-20120829-24zu1.html

              She clearly didn’t act in self-defence and she clearly relied on the defence of provocation for her lenient sentence.

              Do you think that she should have been allowed to rely on the defence of provocation?

              If your answer to this is ‘no’ and in the cases of the men is also ‘no’; they should not have been allowed to rely on the defence of provocation, then we’re in agreement.

              If your stance is that the woman in the article above should have been allowed provocation defence, but that the men shouldn’t, then we’re at issue.

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          • Anonymous

            I really don’t think you’re reporting properly on the law about provocation.

            You’re reporting on three decisions where the provocation defence was relied on and was successful and instead of getting a lawyer in to talk about how the provocation defence works and why these sentences have been handed how from a legal perspective, you’ve got someone from a domestic violence organisation talking about it.

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    • a

      Anon, if one thirds of partner murders are done by women wouldn’t that mean that two thirds are done by men?!?

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    • meee

      Which means 2/3 are men doing the killing….. you do the math

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    • Anonymous

      Provocation is a male based defence. In all my years of practising, I have not seen a woman successfully defend a murder charge on provocation.

      To be fair to both sexes, most men rely on provocation in circumstances of physical fights with other men where one of the men ends up dead. it is not usual in my experience to be successful in defending murder charges based on the provocation defence relating to spousal murder.

      Battered women’s syndrome is not accepted as a defence to murder charges in Australia, so why should provocation be accepted?

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      • Jess88

        What about that woman in Victoria(?) who drugged and then shot her husband in the head and enlisted the help of two men to dispose of his body, she got away with it didn’t she? Cos she claimed he had beaten and threatened her and her children’s lives for years? I personally don’t think that’s acceptable either, isnt it classed as premeditated murder?

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        • Anonymous

          I’ve not heard of that case, sorry.

          I’m in Queensland. Battered Women’s Syndrome has not been accepted as a defence to murder (it still falls within the provocation banner of “defences”), though it has come pretty close.

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    • Anon58

      I think the difference in these cases is a male will kill in order to keep the woman leaving, whereas females will kill in order to escape the relationship. Not in all cases though but I think the majority. And no, all men are not evil.

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    • vanessayoung

      Credible sources for this statistic please!

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    • AnonToday ||

      Your figures are incorrect. Quoting from http://www.adfvc.unsw.edu.au/PDF%20files/Statistics_final.pdf.

      Over three-quarters (76.9%) of these intimate partner homicides involved a male offender and a female victim.
      • Of these homicides, 65.8% occurred between current spouses or de-facto partners, whilst 22.6% occurred between separated/divorced spouses or de facto partners.
      • 10% occurred between current or former boy/girlfriends, and
      • 2% occurred within same sex relationships (Mouzos 2000, p. 115).

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  35. Trog

    http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/woman-jailed-for-killing-ex-mutilating-his-penis-20120829-24zu1.html

    Minimum 3 years 9 months. Says he deserved it.

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    • Eternal Caterpillar

      Another example of why the provocation law should be abolished nationally – for male or female killers.

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  36. Just taffy

    What’s the jaunty photo of the man in blue all about? (ETU on his shirt)

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    • Jess88

      I think it’s Phil Cleary, the women’s rights campaigner? Not sure why he chose to wear his Electrical Trade Union shirt though…..

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