By LUCY ORMONDE
Should sex offenders be allowed to have children?
The moral answer to that question is a tough one – and no doubt there will be as many opinions as there are people in the world. But practically, the answer is simply: yes. There are no legal restrictions on who can have a baby.
But what if that same sex offender requires access to IVF in order to conceive?
Suddenly, that’s a whole other can of sperms worms.
A convicted sex offender is currently fighting his way through the Victorian courts, in an effort to be allowed to access IVF.
The 34-year-old man (who is referred to as ABY for legal reasons) was convicted in 2009 of having sex with a teenage girl who was 16 at the time and under his care, during a period when he worked as a teacher’s aide.
ABY was jailed for three years, with two years suspended. And now he wants to have a baby with his wife.
The Herald Sun reports:
In a landmark ruling… the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal cleared the way for the man, who cannot be named for legal reasons, to gain access to the expensive fertility treatment.
This was despite bans on serious criminals gaining access to IVF.
But the Patient Review Panel (an independent body) has appealed and today sought to overturn the ruling in the Supreme Court.
When Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal initially overturned the ban last year, they concluded that there was no evidence ABY would be likely to sexually offended against his own child. The Tribunal also said that ABY has served his sentence and should not be punished again for the same offense.
But the Patient Review Panel – who initially rejected the couple’s application to access IVF – have responded, arguing that any legal decision must be based on the wellbeing of the potential child, rather than ABY’s risk of re-offending.
More from The Herald Sun:
Kerri Judd, SC, for the Patient Review Panel… argued VCAT applied the wrong test in determining the man’s suitability for treatment. Ms Judd submitted VCAT had focused on the man’s risk of reoffending, instead of the best interest’s of the unborn child.
“What we want is for the correct test to be applied,” she said. “Whatever test is formulated the focus needs to be on the interest of the child…. It has to be a test the focuses on the welfare of the child,” she said.
Ms Judd said the matter should be reheard by VCAT.
In a report for 7:30, the ABC spoke to the couple who are trying to conceive in the days leading up to the hearing.
ABY’s wife argued that “everyone deserves a second chance”.
ABY himself said that: “It was wrong… I could apologise all day long everyday, and I know how wrong it was but there’s nothing I can do to change that now.”
When asked why he slept with a young student, ABY said: “It’s just a hard question to answer. Even to this day it’s something that plagues me. I ask myself the question ‘why, why, why?’ and it just comes down to pure stupidity and not thinking about consequences.”
ABY’s wife ended the report by asking why the couple were being denied the right to have children, when, if they had been able to conceive naturally, they would not have faced any such barrier.
“Any person who can conceive a child naturally can and do and there are people with sexual offense and murder charges that have children. And more than one child. Why do they have children… and we can’t?” she said.
Should a convicted sex offender be restricted from accessing fertility treatment, like IVF?
Comments
125 Comments so far
I mean it doesn’t state that the girl he slept with was rape. He was a sex offender because of her age at the time but there are so many relationships happening like this already but isnt convicted. He obviously isn’t a predator and an actual child molester like furguson so I think he has a right to make have a family as try and move on, he is going to be paying for his offence his whole life and his reputation is tarnished. All he has left is his family.
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I wonder what kind of IVF treatment they need? Is it pure and simple IVF or are they seeking donors? (either egg, sperm or both).
As an egg donor with 3 embryos now going to the public arena for couples needing them, I guess I fall on the conservative side here and say that I don’t think I would want to assist him through IVF.
I dont like judging people, and I’d like to think he’s paid for his crime…. but if I was asked the question “is it ok for your embryos to go toward helping this couple” I would probably say no.
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I feel that having children should really be considered a privilege and not an entitlement. If you want to adopt a child, the restrictions are incredibly tight (perhaps too much so, but that’s another issue). As far as I know, there’s no screening done at all when you start IVF.
Surely there’s a sensible middle ground, where people with no serious criminal offenses and adequate (even if modest) means can be allowed to adopt and use IVF.
Obviously we can’t stop people conceiving naturally, but let’s maintain appropriate restrictions to fertility treatments.
Yes, I agree, the man has done his time and should be allowed to get on with his life in every other way, but giving him access to IVF sets a very uncomfortable precedent for me, like, ‘Oh yes, he’s a sex offender, but only a minor one, so we’ll bend the rules.’
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We couldn’t begin our IVF until we had completed our Working With Children checks. I’m not sure if it is all states, but definitely Victoria – I think it came in in 2010
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Oh you betcha you have to be screened to start infertility treatment.
You have to (over and over and over again, it felt) prove your commitment to have a child.
As for this particular case, I’m not sure how I feel….from a completely black/white point of view, he was convicted of a crime, he served his time, he has been rehabilitated (we hope). Yes, he should be able to move on with his life.
But life is all shades of grey. Fifty, I’ve heard. I’d be hesitant to allow my child for a sleepover. What that makes me, I’m not sure.
This parenting gig is damn hard.
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Hi Suzie and Emmjay,
In WA, it seems there’s no screening done at all (at least, we haven’t had any checks.)
Suzie, sounds like all your hard work paid off though! Happy for you.
Been talking about this case with friends and it’s really a hard one, isn’t it? Opens all kinds of wormcans…
x
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Every decision we make in life has ongoing consequences. If we eat junk food we gain weight and also have future health issues. If we smoke we have health problems that are ongoing. All of us can decide to change and the harm can be somewhat reversed. The difference with the man’s decision to have sex with a child in his care and the afore mentioned is he harmed someone else, not just himself. His wife’s decision to stay with him also comes with consequences. I really don’t think they have thought this through.
He lost me when he said all sex offenders should have access to IVF.
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I don’t know if he should or should not have IVF access to have his own family. Can’t quite decide.
What I do know is that should he have a daughter, I’d never let my daughter go to his daughter’s 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th birthdays and so on, or ever stay over there as a friend. I could never feel comfortable leaving a pre-teen or teen girl in his presence. Sorry, but he didn’t show self restraint when faced with a young woman in her first sexually maturing years once before. How could I as a mother ever trust him around mine?
That’s an interesting question actually – how would parents of girls reading this feel, if they found out today, that their daughter’s friend’s father had had sex in his early 30s with his 16 year old female student? Would you let your daughter keep visiting their friend at their home?
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My thoughts exactly. I wouldn’t let my daughter visit his house and can’t think of many friends who would. It’s sad for any future daughter of his, but I could not put my daughter at risk. Yes, he’s done time and, in general, I believe that people should be given the opportunity to rehabilitate etc, but, on this occasion, my desire to protect my daughter from harm is the priority.
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But we would never know that he had done this offense because his identity would be protected
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Daughter or son, no way would they go to a sex offenders home!
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I haven’t read all the comments yet, but this man served his time, he was punished (not long enough perhaps, but he was judged, found guilty and and jailed. A his partner says, if there weren’t fertility issues there would be no issues here.
I was sexually abused as a 15 year old by my stepfather, nothing was reported and it took a long time for my mother and myself to build a relationship afterwards. Do i think my ex step father would abuse another child? No, I don’t think he would. Do I hope he never gets the chanc eto have a child? well sure, I’m human.
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No I don’t think he should be restricted from accessing IVF. He carried out the punishment for his crime and clearly regrets what he did. I’m so sick of stories like this that paint our society as one that doesn’t forgive or allow redemption. What’s the point in even serving a sentence if the punishment for a crime is forever on-going? Let the guy move on with his life.
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My opinion is NO. No to IVF access and because we can’t sterilize child sex offenders (can we), if they were to fall pregnant naturally there should be a major role played by DOHS in ensuring that the child/children of the perpetrators are safe. This man chose to have sex with a minor and it angers me that people say it was consensual and she was 16. He was an adult and was in a position of power and he as an educator would have known that a child’s brain is not fully developed until 25. A 16yo does not have the ability to predict consequences and future repercussions, and yet he chose to abuse and exploit that, so no he should not get a second chance. His wife is suffering I imagine, but she chose to marry him, so unfortunately his punishment is now hers and she would have known this going into it.
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Hope you don’t live in a glass house.
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Wow going off your comment that a “childs” ‘brain isn’t fully developed until 25, does this mean anyone who has sex with someone under 25 is a “sex offender”? If so my husband is, his father is and I have no doubt countless other men are too.
If a “child’s” brain isn’t fully developed until 25, why the hell are we allowing 18 year olds to vote? 17 year olds to drive? 18 year olds to drink?
What a load of crap. YOU at 16 may not have known about consequences and repercussions from your actions but I most certainly did.
May you never do anything wrong and need a second chance but if you do, I hope people aren’t as judgemental towards you, as you are to others.
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Anonymous you may have known about consequences and repercussions at 16, which can be quite natural, who hasn’t had a crush on their teacher, but the 31 (at the time) year old teacher should have been even more responsible and considered the consequences and repercussions and have known to say no.
And I agree with some of your comments, no 17 year olds shouldn’t drive and 18 year olds shouldn’t drink. And i don’t profess to live in a house of glass & I have made lots of mistakes in my life, but I at 31 did not choose to have sex with a 16 year old under my care, spent time in jail for it and am forever branded as a sex offender. Some things are mistakes other things are illegal and criminal. Again as I’ve mentioned below I don’t know what the answer is to his right to IVF, but I don’t believe it should be a right, that he has a right to without having to proof why. I feel sympathy for his wife, but she married him, knowing he was a sex offender and sadly it comes with consequences for her as well. Thus I know I could never be a judge, i wouldn’t want to be making these sorts of decisions.
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Ugh. No. I don’t believe he should be able to get IVF. He is a sex offender, and with a minor at that! At 31, what he did was creepy and sleazy and he had no excuse to sleep with a 16 year old.
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I’ll begin this with saying I am a survivor of sexual abuse by my father from the age of 5-17. Should he have had children, no, but it was over 40 years ago and there was no IVF then, it would have been great if he was infertile but then I wouldn’t be here. It’s all a catch 22.
I’ve read some of the comments and people have said the child was 16 and of consensual age, did you work out that he was 31, 15 years her senior and in this day and age could have been her father. he was in a position of authority & regardless of whether the girl could give consent he is the adult. He needed to have made the adult choice and said no.
I agree he did the crime & did the time. But I would err on the side of caution a child isn’t a Russian roulette game, and no we don’t know if he’ll be attracted to his own daughter in that way, but do we help him with IVF & take the chance. I just don’t know…
I don’t know the answer, I think this is one time that I’m thankful he can’t fall pregnant naturally and whatever the outcome I feel it’s only fair that he has to fight for the right to have IVF, even if the courts decide he can, at least he’s had to go through the judicial process.
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A few have mentioned would he re-offend? My father (whilst still married to my mother, actually they’re still married I just have no contact with them) was having relationships with 16-18 year olds when I was in my 20′s (he was in his 40′s) and I was married & had my 2 children. I caught him with our babysitter once.
He may not re-offend with his own child but would he be again tempted to re-offend with a young girl?
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Yeh, like his daughters friends!
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True Junebug and we must also remember that this was only 3 years ago, he’s still within or just out of his 3yr sentence, 1 yr in jail and 2 yrs suspended.
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MM, do you guys trawl for any story involving a male perpetrator and female victim, as it is the only crime related stories that ever seem to make it on to here.
Just because this site has females as the target market does not mean that this constantly repeated scenario has to be the default standard for any story of wrong doing making it on here.
I have read quite a number of stories recently of female teachers having sex with their students, but we never ever hear about this type of thing here.
We never hear about same sex DV, violent and abusive mothers etc.
It is as if any crime related story hits the cutting room floor if it isn’t aligned with your tight gender requirements.
If aliens came down from out of space, landed here and read this site, they would assume that it is a one way street, with all women being eternal victims of the evil male of the species.
Some variation on the theme that is more consistent with realty (and not driven by an obvious ideology) would be nice. I am not holding my breath though.
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Hi there, anonymous
Thanks for your comment. You might not be surprised to hear that I disagree. MM publishes posts on a whole range of issues and from authors of both genders. Do we write for women? Yes, unashamedly so. Do we somehow set out to hold all women up as heroes and cast men as villains? God no.
This story is about a man with a sex-related criminal history who is trying to access IVF. I think it a fascinating moral issue and one, which is worth debating. We’re not here to discuss this guy’s guilt or otherwise – a court already established that – we’re here to consider the moral issue now at play in Victoria and whether he and his wife should be allowed to access IVF.
We post content all the time about female criminals, as well as female victims. We don’t pick and choose. We don’t set out to try and ‘cover up’ instances of sexual assault or family violence where men are the victim of a female perpetrator. Yes, they rarely get coverage – but that’s because there are less of them.
I take issue 100% with the view that because men are also the victims of violence, we should somehow be expected to ignore violence against women. Men and women experience violence very differently and as such, the approach we take to bringing that into the open and addressing the issue must also be different.
Violence experienced by men tends to take place in public, and that violence is generally perpetrated by men against other men – often with no prior relationship. Violence against women happens overwhelmingly within a relationship and again, it is generally (not always, I grant you) perpetrated by a man.
So when MM reports on domestic violence cases, yes, women are usually the victims of a male perpetrator – that’s not about deliberately seeking those stories out – it’s the reality of how domestic violence is experienced and who it is experienced by. Domestic abuse is gendered. It’s a reality not an opinion.
To say that this is unfair or deliberate is like saying we should stop covering cases like the tragedy of what happened to Thomas Kelly because that was a story of a male victim and (facts suggest at this point although nothing is yet concluded) a male perpetrator and most stories of public violence are also committed by men against other men.
Cheers,
Jamila
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Thanks so much for talking the time to reply. I didnt say you should ignore violence against women, not at all. Just wanting some more balance for fear that reporting constantly one way creates a false allusion of reality. Lets agree to disagree then but thanks anyway for taking the time.
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Recently there was a woman convicted in SA for having sex with a dog. I would have thought that was interesting/different enough for MM to publish the story, but you didn’t.
Perhaps it’s because I’m male that I go looking for stories that show men in a positive light, or stories about some of the hardships that men endure (we die younger, is that imoportant enough for you?), and the effects that our early deaths have on women perhaps, and how we as a society should deal with the fact that men die younger. But no, all us men see is story after story on the negative things that SOME men do.
I’m almost at the point of accusing MM to be the female equivalent of the sites run by men who hate women with a vengance. But I’m not there yet.
It may come as a surprise but some men (and I’m one), frequent this site because we are genuinely interested in what women think and, god forbid, how they think. In my case it’s also because I work in a remote area where there are no women, and even crappy female contact via the internet is better than no contact with women at all.
Apart from being banned from the site twice now for getting cranky with the double standard of what is ok to say on MM, I’ll continue to hang around, if only to explain the god particle to you.
S.hane
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I’m not sure I want to read a story about a woman having sex with a dog. Where’s the discussion there? “Ewwwww.”
In all seriousness, why don’t you email the Mamamia team with some suggestions for stories? Just leave the dog shagging out of it.
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O MG okay consider that he made a mistake and the girl lives with it all her life and probably feels dirty! Anyhow seriously toughen up guys, you want to penetrate a girl then think about the age difference yeah! i have no sympathy for a male or female who harms or violates a child! Just cos a minor may be attracted to you, does not mean you have right to act in a sexual manner you sick freak! I say this to women and man, you are weak and gutless to violate a minor or a disturbed persons privacy just to satisfy your sick thoughts. IVF…. definitely not… why…simple really, if you can let yourself have sex with someone so much younger then you, yet u seriously believe you deserve another chance, when your sick mind has a chance to return! If i was a judge and one had committed a sex act on one who was a minor or just disturbed then i would chuck you male or female in a cell until you are too old to pursue another sexual act! I do not think about if you have served your time, i think about the victim and how they cope! like a child, and abusive parents, why consider how the parents are coping when its the child who needs to be thought about! child focus aka victim focus!
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I think the original ban against those who have committed serious crimes should apply.
I realise there are shades of grey and people may have already been punished but it’s best to err on the side of caution.
Former serious criminals being denied fertility treatment is not an injustice I will lose sleep over.
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How far do we go with punishing this man? What else should we withhold from him? He had consensual sex with a girl who was over the age of consent, who happened to be in his care. Was it an abuse of power? Probably. Was he punished? He spent 12 months in prison. He probably lost his job. So far, so good.
Now we’re saying that his punishment is ongoing and that he and his wife are to spend the rest of their lives without children. Is that really something that people are comfortable with? Isn’t that just Old Testament style vengeance?
He didn’t get caught with pictures of naked children on his computer. He didn’t abduct a child and sexually abuse them. He didn’t beat anyone up. He didn’t prostitute anyone for his own gain. He’s not a kiddy fiddler. He’s not innocent either, but he got caught and went to prison.
I really don’t feel comfortable saying that this man and his wife are not entitled to assistance in becoming parents.
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Oh wow – I didn’t realise he could have ‘lost his job’!!
Gee – shock, horror.
Well, that’s fine then. Punishment enough.
What a joke.
He was convicted of sexually abusing a child in his care. Society shouldn’t condone that – let alone give him a pat on the back, a helping hand and any help he needs.
He was convicted in 2009 – that’s 3 years ago with a 3 year sentence – so what has he done in the interim to make you so sure that he deserves a second chance.
He doesn’t.
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Unnecessary sarcasm but you seem to be enjoying yourself with it so go for your life.
Have you ever done jury service? You’re certainly giving the impression of someone who thinks that anyone who commits a crime should be thrown in a dungeon for the rest of their natural life.
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Sorry, he was found guilty, rightfully lost his job & went to prison, were you looking for more punishment for him? Public castration perhaps?
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No jury service – phew for him or he might have not had 2 years of his sentence suspended.
No public castration – although that might be an option considered by the parents of his victim.
Simply – the man does not deserve a helping hand in any way, shape or form – he hasn’t earned it.
He made a choice. His wife makes a choice.
I see no reason why society – or staggeringly, the members of MM – should support him in any way.
Why? What’s he contributed? But misery to another family.
For goodness sake – do the math – he committed the crime in 2009, got a 3 year sentence (2 suspended), they’ve already been through tribunals about this – it’s only 2012 – so well before this person has ‘served his time’ he’s accessing public funds to plead his case to have assistance to create a child. When did they work out they needed IVF? How long have the tribunals taken?
Geez – anything else we can do for him while he’s serving his sentence (suspended or not) as a convicted sex offender?
This is PC to the crazy level. Spare your good wishes and public assistance for his victim.
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you have written everything I was going to say. He did the crime and then did the time. I would of had a completely different response if he sexually or physically abused little children, but this girl was of consensual age ( not justifying what he did by the way) , but there needs to be some perspective .
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Thanks, mumof4. I’m not saying he’s an angel, and clearly he did the wrong thing but I’m not sure it’s enough to say that he can’t become a parent, and given that he and his wife are looking for IVF clearly they have a fertility problem.
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Exactly what I was thinking Anna!
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It’s very simple – it’s not about punishing him, it’s about protecting any children he and his wife might have. He is a registered sex offender, who had sex with someone in his care. What is to say he won’t have inappropriate relations with his own kids?
I’m not saying he will but that’s the basis behind it and I support it.
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Seriously? You think because he had sex with a 16 year old he’s more likely to sexually abuse his own child????
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Yes and he is. He has sex with a 16 year old who was in his care. It was already a fairly straight forward abuse of power, whether she girl consented or not.
Also, where do you draw the line? He IS a sex offender, there should be a blanket approach. I’m tired of people screaming about the rights of the “offender”. What about the rights of the victims? Unlike the offender, they’ve done nothing wrong but they keep getting fewer and fewer rights. Shouldn’t our main priority be to look after those entirely defenseless, especially children? Will he offend again? Who knows? BUT I don’t want to hear in 15 years time be sexually assaulted his own child
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Excuse me – if you want to adopt a child, you can’t even commit traffic offences. If you find yourself wanting help to create your family by adoption even with a zero police record, you get no financial help and no support from the bleeding heart brigade.
But this guy – let’s help him create his family because ‘he deserves a second chance’ after committing a serious sexual offence. Hell, let’s ensure he gets some public health money, legal aid and everything else he needs and then cross our fingers that his ‘second chance’ pans out for the child he might parent.
Not everyone has a right to be a parent – or deserves assistance to become one.
He was 31 when he did this – not 18 – and the girl was in his care – he was a teachers aide and therefore in a position of authority and very able to manipulate her.
The world has gone mad.
Sorry for his wife – but ‘do the crime, do the time’ – this is so wrong, it’s sickening.
He did 3 years – given our lax laws in this regard, the offence was serious.
If he applied to adopt he would be laughed out the door – why is there consideration given to him wanting to create a bio child?
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So his wife is punished as well, for something her husband did?
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Yes.
Yes, she is.
That’s a shame for her, but it’s her choice to marry him.
Her rights do not out weigh the rights of the child they may conceive.
Nor the rights of the community who are expected to pay for their desire to have a family.
She’s making a choice to remain with this man – her choice – and the consequences are too.
Above I said I felt sorry for her – on review, I don’t – she making her own choices. Full stop.
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Wow. That’s breathtaking.
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Hey Cold
My original answer to you was obviously deleted by MM. Pity – it wasn’t that harsh, just the truth as I pondered what would be an appropriate level of assistance to provide to this person.
I’ll simplify it and see if it makes it through the censors.
In my book, what’s cold is what this man did.
Would you give him a ‘second chance’ if it involved your child? Even if said ‘child’ was 16. Doubt it.
He doesn’t deserve, or merit public assistance to create a family. Full stop.
It’s a shame these resources aren’t filtered to more deserving members of our society.
Perhaps those who haven’t chosen the path he did.
His wife is making a choice to be with him – she’s an adult. So be it.
Save your sympathy for the victims of this kind of crime. They are the ones who deserve it.
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^ Could not have said it better myself. How much trust does he get to abuse before he gets no more chances? I would not stay with someone who chose this path, and if I did, I would have to accept the stigma etc that goes along with it. He made very bad choices…is he done with those?????
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You’re a nasty piece of work.
“Nor the rights of the community who are expected to pay for their desire to have a family.”
I will agree with this when the “community” stops paying for other peoples desires to have a family by providing them financial assistance to bring said desire/choice/children up.
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Please don’t abuse posters on here by calling them nasty pieces of work. We don’t need personal insults.
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Thank you.
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Oh please seriously?
I stand by it. Sometimes the truth hurts.
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I have no problem with you thinking I’m a nasty piece of work – don’t understand it, but have no problem with it.
I am not a convicted sex offender – he is.
I did not abuse a child in my care – he did.
I am however a victim of someone like him – and that doesn’t make me nasty – it gives me insight when considering the ‘second chances’ we should give to people who are capable of committing this kind of crime in the first place.
What staggers me is how this persons ‘rights’ are being so widely defended in this post.
There has been so much speculation and minimalisation of his offence – no such consideration or speculation given to the possible situation of his victim.
The inference is that she was 16 / had a crush / she’ll be ok / she wasn’t a little kid.
Well, perhaps that’s not the case – perhaps she didn’t consent – perhaps she was blindsided by this adult, groomed by him and extremely vulnerable to his approach.
While you ponder his second chances and give him the benefit of the doubt, presuming perhaps what he did ‘wasn’t so bad’ and/or ‘he’s served his time’ – how about you consider that that wasn’t the case?
His wife believes ‘everyone’ deserves a second chance – I beg to differ, they don’t.
PS: Thanks Mia and Anonymouse for opposing the ‘nasty’ comment, but I’m fine with it – staggered, why I’m considered the nasty one, but a sex offender isn’t – but there you go.
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Wow. Quite the can of worms indeed. It’s difficult to know where to begin.
One question I would like answered is the one of precedent. If this individual is allowed to access IVF would that set a dangerous precedent in that other serious criminals would also be able to access it?
It’s a very complex legal and ethial case indeed.
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I think the question that’s been asked is far too broad. I don’t personally think that a person in this man’s position is the same as someone who has molested a child. I’m not even remotely saying that what he did was right. As a parent, I’d be horrified if it was my daughter. But as a woman, I’d be just as angry as his wife if I was in her position (although honestly, had he been with me when it happened the relationship would be over anyway). I think you need to judge everything on a case by case basis, rather than issuing blanket bans or approvals.
To put my feelings on the matter in perspective – my former partner, who is the biological father of my children, is a child sexual offender. He did not molest my kids, but he did dramatically alter the life of a young person in his care – his step daughter. He has now taken up with another woman, who has had a child to him. She knows what he did, but he has justified it to her by saying it was a misunderstanding, and she will not consider that he is lying to her. Child services know he has a child, but are powerless to do anything about the matter. I personally think this is the sort of situation which warrants interference by DOCS workers, the government, and the public, yet we’re more concerned with a man who has no history of familial abuse and the relationship was of a consensual nature.
I have to wonder just how balanced our perspective as a society is when there’s more attention paid to the reproductive habits of lower risk offenders.
Another thing to think of….In theory, a man who was falsely accused but found guilty could end up in the same situation as this man….thereby adding yet another layer of injustice done to him.
A bit all over the shop I know, but that’s my point here. It’s not black and white.
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I could be wrong but do we even know if he was married when this happened? He could’ve met his wife after… which means he’s free to sleep with whom he likes. The fact he was old enough to be her father should be a concern, but in my opinion some men don’t see age differences as being an issue. I think these cases should be judged on the actual circumstances, not if one offender is allowed, all should be. I agree some people shouldn’t be allowed to breed however, I believe in this case he’s not a child-molester & shouldn’t be treated as one.
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I’ve spent some time reading the applicable legislation because I couldn’t wrap my mind around it.
You and your partner (if you have one) have to undergo a criminal check and a child protection order check to undergo IVF in Victoria. If you have been convicted of a sexual or violent offence that is listed in Schedule 1, Clause 1 and 2 of the 1991 Sentencing Act or have previously had a child removed from your custody or guardianship, you won’t be given permission to proceed with IVF. There are a lot of offences that fall under those 2 clauses ie if he had been convicted of intentionally or recklessly causing serious injury to a 40 year old man, raping an adult woman or making threats to inflict serious injury for example, this couple would’ve been denied IVF as well.
The applicable offences are listed here for anyone interested and the first 2 clauses apply: 1. Sexual Offences and 2. Violent offences http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/sa1991121/sch1.html
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I just want to make a comment on the consent issue and the fact that it was a student in his care. He has crossed the boundaries once but who knows if he will do it again! I had concensual sex with a school counsellor when I was 16 . At the time I didn’t think anything was wrong with that. Now at 45 and a mum I am angry that this happened. He broke the law. It was wrong and as a teacher you can never cross that line. I have since found out that there were other times he crossed the line with other students and mothers of students.
In saying this this sex offender has been punished. Hopefully he has realised that what he did was wrong. He should have the same chances in society as everyone else.
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It’s the ‘I have since found out…’ part of your story that resonates with me. When I was 27, my rape came back to haunt me. The man was 31, but told me he was 27, I was 15 & only a month shy of my 16th birthday. He basically seduced me as an adult, champagne, alcohol, candles the lot. And we debated on & off for the evening if I was ready to lose my virginity. In the end, I was scared & told him so & he did it anyway. This man was my best friend’s boyfriend’s uncle & he was the adult chaperone on this particular night. Unmet before I might add but the reason why I was allowed to go out to a party & sleepover, both at houses of people my mother had never met.
At 16, I ended up in a four & a half month relationship with this man. I thought at the time that this was just how I happened to lose my virginity & that this was a boyfriend but this man was a predator if not a pedophile. At 27, I looked out a bus window & saw a group of teenage boys similar to the age I was then. I didn’t find them remotely sexually attractive. And that’s when it hit me, most adults don’t. There’s something wrong with the ones who do & act on it.
I don’t know to this day whether girls my age then were his predilection or if he likes them younger. It sickens me to think of it. He was a former youth worker & I was in a vulnerable family situation. His occupation gave him the skills & access to pick his targets.
So this story for me is interesting. There is no doubt in my mind that this man crossed a boundary not meant to be crossed. Consensual or not, I feel for this girl & how she will look back on that time in her life when she is 25, 30. I was considered mature for my age & intelligent. I spent half of that year at high school split between wanting to be there & elsewhere. It affected my grades & my relationships with boys/men for many years to come.
From the IVF standpoint, I think he has the right to have children & his predilection for younger females might not go lower than ‘legal age’ nor be familial. But God, if I was his wife, well, obviously with my experience I wouldn’t be, but I’d be hoping his rehabilitation was total & that he is entirely remorseful. I wouldn’t want to walk a mile in her shoes.
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A doctor having sex with his patient is illegal too. Would he be called a sex offender and be banned from accessing IVF in Victoria?
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Sorry but why should tax payers have to pay (via the Medicare rebate) for this sex offender to have ivf? I don’t care how old the girl was, the fact is she was under his care. He committed a crime. The end!
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“He committed a crime, the end.” Only that’s not the end, is it, because using your argument he’s still being punished.
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It is a much broader issue as anyone with a criminal or police record will always be banned from some things – jobs included. Doing a crime will have a lifelong disadvantage. Whether I personally agree or disagree – this is just ONE of those things.
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So if he pays for the IVF treatment out of his own pocket with no Medicare rebate or government assistance you are happy for him to proceed with the treatment?
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Good question.
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He’s still taking up precious time/resources of a ferility specialist and their team. I’m going through IVF at the moment after a lengthy waiting period… I’d be pretty angry if it took so long because a sex offender was getting treatment before me.
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Sorry, what? I’m genuinely confused! Why is he not a sex offender?
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so when a person is charged and convicted and does their time and (presumably) reformed, they must always wear a ‘label” for life. Yes?
I think I recall another time in history when people were forced to wear labels to identify them.
Being guilty of an offense does not translate into being of a fixed nature for life. Thus when someone steals form a shop and pays the price they are not automatically labelled “shop lifter” for life.
Please think beyond tabloid labels and understand : there is no such thing in any law in Australia that refers to “sex offender”. It is a label created by a British newspaper.
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I think your outrage is misplaced. I do feel for this man that the label ‘sex offender’ doesn’t quite distinguish his crimes from more serious ones like child abuse, and labels for life is worth debating, but the term ‘sex offender’ is a common criminal justice term, the media is repeating what the courts, police, and other law bodies use. They are not responsible for pushing the term in Australia.
The register is even called ‘the sex offenders register’. You can Google it. You can also Google and see a wide rage of legal and police bodies using the term including the law reform commission, the parole boards and medical professional who treat sex offenders.
There may be no law that declares someone a sex offender but it is accepted practice that people who commit certain crimes are referred to as sex offenders by the criminal justice system. Your post misleads by providing only part of the story. There may be no actual law but it is a widely accepted and used term in Australia by legitimate criminal justice bodies.
There is plenty to rag on the media about but this is not one of those things.
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Say what? Every state in Australia (& the commonwealth) has legislation that refers to ‘serious sex offenders’ and even defines what a serious sex offender is. In victoria it is known as Serious Sex Offenders Monitoring Act 2005, in QLD Dangerous Criminals (Sex Offenders) Act etc etc.
so I am not sure why you think the there is no legislation or defintion of what a sex offender is?
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I’m really surprised this legislation (banning IVF for those with a criminal history) was passed in the first place. I can see so many issues of discrimination. One could argue that any person convicted of a crime should be sterilised as they enter prison? Or prohibited from conceiving whilst on parole. Or any number of scenarios that seem unpalatable.
The purpose of prison is to rehabiliate. As a society we seem to have forgotten that point. If a suitably qualified person finds that this man is not likely to re-offend, then why should he be prevented from living his life as fully as he can, which in this case involves accessing IVF.
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Perhaps MM could update that the girl was 16, as reported in The Australian and other News Ltd papers, and that it was consensual (as consensual as it can be when someone is in a position of authority). ‘Teenage’ is a broad age range and it is hard to have a debate when some people are under the impression the girl was very young or it was rape. Not defending what he did, but the age of the girl and level of consent is relevant.
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Agreed.
It’s still a complicated issue – but best to have as many facts known to the readers as possible, instead of encouraging speculation.
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Thanks guys!
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your chances of getting any sort in-depth analysis in the MSM on a subject like this is nil (despite sex being the media’s wet dream when it comes to titillating readers).
Any such case is complicated but one should obey the law at all times-even when the law on age and sex is regarded as a nonsense in other lands.
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I think in this case he should be allowed. I was 16 and had a 22 year old boyfriend (who was my first). I understand that she was in his care, but the sex was consensual. Of course it shouldn’t be allowed where the child is in danger, but I really don’t think the child would be in this case (from what we know anyway).
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Can’t kids (teenagers) sexting be placed on the sex offender register for sending naked pics to theirboyfriend/girlfriend? Does this mean that 10 years down the track when they can’t conceieve naturally, they wont have access to IVF either?
It sounds like a very black and white law has been passed for a matter that just isn’t black and white.
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that is true.
so a child who ‘sexts’ can be abused by the legal process in order to be saved.
Once people have served their time they are entitled to return to society and enjoy the benefits that were removed from them during their sentence,
Not all people though.
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Hi Mamamia team, just a quick note:
“The Tribunal also said that ABY has served his sentence and should not be punished again for the same offense.”
I think it is “offence” as in criminal offence, not offense, as in causing offense.
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That’s just American spelling, though, isn’t it? The only reason people use offense in Australia is if they’re using US spellcheck. We don’t spell offence or defence with an s.
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Ah, i see, thanks anon!
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Wow, it’s only in Victoria that a serious criminal can be prevented from IVF. “Victoria is the only jurisdiction, both nationally and internationally, which has legislated a presumption against treatment,” Bianca Moleta (the man’s solicitor) said. “The presumption is designed to protect children, not penalise those people who seek the privilege of accessing IVF treatment.”
So if you’ve been convicted of a serious crime and you or your partner have infertility issues, you can’t have a baby in Victoria. However even if someone abuses their own child they can still continue on to have more kids as long as IVF isn’t required.
Something doesn’t seem right about that legislation.
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I don’t think it’s the age, I think it’s more the sexual maturity
Me at 13 I loved sports Wasn’t thinking about boys!
An old friend of mine…pregnant and had her first baby by 14
Men are the weaker sex and as much as i hate that i know that girls do flirt and put themselves out there for them
He shouldn’t have slept with her but i do feel that he should be able to have a family
Maybe if he had the family before doing it it may have pulled him up?
Sex with a teenager is wrong but if it was consensual we can’t keep blaming him and we can’t keep putting his life on hold for a stupid mistake
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‘Men are the weaker sex and as much as i hate that i know that girls do flirt and put themselves out there for them ‘
-Nice work.
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Good grief. Right up there with “she was dressed provocatively so she was asking for it”. Just when you thought it was safe to read public opinions.
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Oh I’m sorry but please forgive me if you have NEVER worn something provocative to turn your partner on?
People flirt plain and simple some people take further because they want more from that other person
Please don’t think this is some innocent school girl you only know her age nothing about her life
The fact is it was consensual she said yes
As I said he shouldn’t have slept with her and this is something that he will have to live with!
If you don’t like reading public opinions why the hell are you here?
Matter fact don’t answer that because I’m not coming back
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Don’t let the door hit you in the arse on the way out, anon.
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Anon, did you *really* just write this: this is something that he will have to live with.
HE will have to live with? He?!
What about being something SHE (16yo girl) will have to live with?
As another poster (forjack) said in hindsight as a 45 year old woman now…
she probably won’t have any perspective on how she was taken advantage of until she’s a fair bit older. She’s actually had something taken from her, whether she knows it or not right now.
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Looks like the other anon took her bat and ball and went home.
I wonder if she’s stamping her feet and holding her breathe too?
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“men are the weaker sex”
Let’s see if the Mamamia team deletes this post like they would if a man said “women are the weaker sex”
I’t an obvious chance to show that mamamia doesn’t favour one gender over the other.
This is a really offensive statement and should be treated with contempt.
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I agree it is completely offensive. But not just because it says men are the weaker sex. Because it implies that it’s ok for a man to seduce a teenager if he feels she was coming on to him. Which, of course, aside from being illegal is completely immoral. Happy to see it deleted too, it’s fairly sickening.
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It doesn’t matter how provocatively she behaved towards him. Even if she took all her clothes and sat on his face and said “I want you baby” – it was his job to be responsible and, if anything protect her! When girls first become women they are biologically designed to see if they are atractive to the opposite sex for procreation.
A 31 year old man knows much better than to flirt back, encourage it or worst of all, unzip his fly.
Male gorillas or male chimps may be the weaker sex, but that is no excuse for humans – deplorable Anon. I guess you don’t have a teenage sister or daughter?
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Seriously? You got that I said its ok because I said men are the weaker sex??
No I didn’t say that and until I do don’t out words in my mouth!
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Well it depends which “Anon” you are – there seems to be more than one on here.
My intention was to respond to the Anon that posted a comment 1.10pm.
If you are the one who wrote: “Men are the weaker sex and as much as i hate that i know that girls do flirt and put themselves out there for them” – then yes, you’re making excuses for an adult in a responsible position. Why do you think teachers and child carers undergo police checks?
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“Men are the weaker sex and as much as i hate that i know that girls do flirt and put themselves out there for them”
Your words; nobody else’s.
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got to love when someone insults men by saying they are the weaker sex and pretty much that they can’t control themselves that it’s still all about men being the evil predator and women being the victims.
what else can you expect from mamamia
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…except a child is unable to give consent. Jeebus. He was an adult. She was a child. Its’ not just a “stupid mistake” it was a criminal offence. The article says nothing about how it happened, how old the girl was or in what circumstances it occurred. She was his student, he had a duty of care to her, was undoubtly in addition to be older then her he was also in a position of power and control over her.
there is undoubtably an inbalance of power in a student/ teacher relationship- and the law recognizes it by making being in a position of care, guardianship, or a teacher an aggravating circumstance in the sentencing of child abuse matters.
For all you know, he could have spend years, months, weeks grroming her for sexual activity, use threats of violence or other threats to induce her to ‘agree’ to sex.
I don’t know the details- I don’t know the facts. But we do know he was convicted and sentenced (and from the above article, admitted to) sexually abusing a child.
So yes, I will ‘blame him’- the adult, in a position of trust- and unlike you I won’t blame the child in this situation.
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I agree and one must always obey the law of the land or face the punishment.
However once that punishment is severed, any additional penalties invoked at a later date means we are just savages. And it just a matter of time before all those parking tickets you rack will be use to stop you driving car when it’s convenient for society.
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We know very little about the details of this case but I support the couple having access to IVF treatment. Having sex with a teenager (possibly consensual too we don’t know) is a whole different kettle of fish to saying this man would have sex with a child or in any way be an unfit father. I think it depends on a few things such as the age of the girl he slept with and if it was consensual. My understanding is that the ‘sex offender’ label can technically be applied to an 18 year old sleeping with their 15 year old girlfriend/boyfriend. I think maybe I read or heard somewhere that the 15 year old girlfriend/boyfriend woudln’t even need to bring the charges against their partner? Has anyone else heard that or have I gotten things confused? I may be thinking of another country too…
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It was consensual. He wasn’t convicted of rape, and I think she was legal age too. He is a sex offender because she was under his care at the time and you cannot have sex with people under your care even if they are of age. In terms of seriousness of sex offences it’s pretty low on the scale going from the bare facts – youngish teacher’s aide has sex with 16 year old girl.
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Ok then, that makes me feel even more strongly about what I said above. I had friends in high school who were consensually sexually active at that age – sometimes with guys who were legally considered adults. To deny this couple IVF under these circumstances when someone who abuses 5 year olds for example can go out and have as many kids as they want is wrong. No wonder why other jurisdictions don’t have this law in place.
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I don’t think can you can assume the criminality of the offence is ‘low’. She was 16, he was 31. She was a child in his care. we can’t comment because we don’t know the particulars, but it is not unreasonable to assume that there was ‘grooming’ at least in some form.
She obviously suffered some harm or trauma because she proceeded with criminal charges- you cannot prosecute without a complainant. He was sentence to 3 years imprisonment- I just don’t think “she was 16, she agreed’ minimises it.
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Obviously it was a terrible thing to do but in the scale of sex offenders it is at the lower end. When you consider other people in the sex offender category include repeat child abusers and violent rapists this case is at the lower end. I think what he did was a gross breach of trust of his position and a crime, but to me it is not enough to bar him from IVF.
Also you can be charged without a complaint from the victim. The school may have found out and reported him, or her parents. Even if a victim refuses to cooperate with police a perpetrator can still be charged and convicted if there is enough evidence. It is not up to an individual victim if a charge proceeds, although police may decide not to proceed if the victim doesn’t support it. So we can’t make assumptions about how she feels based on his conviction, it doesn’t tell us anything about her role.
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Did she press charges though? She was a minor so the case would go through the system regardless if she alerted authorities or not. Because the details of this case aren’t known, it’s really hard to get a clear picture of what happened. For all we know she told a friend, the friend told her parents, her parents called the police. Or maybe a colleague found out and reported it. Maybe there was a pregnancy scare, she went to the Dr and the Dr reported it as they must. Obviously this is all speculation but there are many ways for him to have been charged without her being involved at all.
The law regarding 16-18 year olds is that if they’re under your care, even if they give consent, you’ll be charged. The only exceptions to this is if you had reason to believe they were over 18 or you’re married. So whether or not he knew he was breaking the law, they were in a relationship or who knows what… he was going to get charged as soon as word got out.
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My experince is it is VERY difficult to run a sex case without a complainant. There is a difference between being charged and being able to prosecute a matter. After all, she is the only one who can give evidence about what happened. Only she can particularise the acts in sufficent detail.
I am very aware of the horrific sexual predators out there. I deal with them everyday. I still don’t think you can assume the criminality was ‘low’ without any further details. He served 3 years imprisonment. The articles don’t say what exactly he was charged with, so we can’t even comment on whether the penalty was in proportion to the possible maximum sentence. I have seen rapists get less then 12 months imprisonment (recently i saw one who plead guilty being given a suspended sentence- no Gaol time at all) , child molesters given periodic detention, or people possesing child pornography get good behaviour orders.
All the people in the world could have reported it but without her evidence it would be damn near impossible to get a conviction or even get through the committal process without some extremely strong evidence (DNA from an aborted foetus for example).
The fact that she was sixteen doesn’t (in my mind) reduce the offending or lead to the assumption that the offending was in the lower end.
he was an adult, she was a child. he abused not only her trust, but the trust of her parents, the other students and the community.
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Thanks for your reply zelicat. My experience has been quite different as far as being able to prosecute but it’s interesting to hear other viewpoints too.
It should be noted though he was sentenced for 3 years with 2 years of that suspended so he served 1 in prison. The penalty for the charge of having sex with consent of a 16 to 17 year old in your care is Level 5 imprisonment (10 years maximum).
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In my experinence it is very difficult to prosecute a sex case without a complainant. After all, she is the only one who can particularise the offending in sufficent detail to be “beyond reasonable doubt”.
it doesn’t matter who reported it or if several people reported it- if she refused to give a statement or give evidence it would be near impossible to to prove that an offence happened unless you had some strong supporting evidence (like his DNA from an aborted foetus for example.
I am well aware of the sexual predators out there. I deal with them everyday. He served three years imprisonment. Without know exactly what he was charged with it is difficult to assess the seriousness of the offence against what would have been the maximum penalty.
I have seen rapist get given less then 12 months imprisonment – in fact last week someone who plead guilty to rape was given a fully suspended sentence. I have seen child molesters be given periodic (weekend)detention. People who possess child pornography give a good behaviour order.
3 years is a pretty big sentence.
In my mind her age and (apparent) consent does not automatically make the offending the “lower end of seriousness’
She was a child. He was an adult, and he abused not only her trust, but her parents trust, the other students trust and the trust that we as a society place in our educators.
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sorry for double post! it disappeared and re-appeared.
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A sex offender can also be peeing in public!
Because you have your wang out you can get into bigger trouble than you thought :/
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Actually Anon, peeing in public is classified as indecent behaviour and but you cannot be classified a sex offender. To be classified as a sex offender, a person has to be convicted of a sexual offense under their states criminal code.
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there is a difference between a paedophile and someone who had sex with a teenager. i dont know enough of the psychology to articulate that difference. but someone would, and that in my opinion would be the ‘test’.
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Inclined to agree with you. Obviously the teenager was under 16 but its certainly not the same as a little child.
I dont know….
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I read somewhere she was 16. It is not age of the girl that makes him a sex offender, but that he was in a position of authority as a teacher’s aide. People in such positions cannot sleep with those under their care no matter their age.
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yes, it is a tough one, anon.
and thats not true, guest. the issue is age, and that is directly related to what kind of offender he is, and the likelihood of him being a repeat offender. there is a big difference between a father who rapes his 3 month old, and a teacher who slept with his teenage student.
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I meant it was not her age that makes him a sex offender. The previous poster stated ‘obviously the teenager was under 16′ because that is the conclusion some people draw from ‘sex offender’ . I am not saying her age is not relevant, it is, I am saying he is a sex offender because she was in his care not because she was underage. The post should clarify the facts of the case more.
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God what a difficult issue. Problems everywhere you turn and whichever way you look.
I also struggle with this notion that everyone deserves the ‘right’ to have a family.
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Tricky one! If they could conceive naturally no-one would even know. If he were a serial pedo he could have conceived naturally an no-one would even know.
There’s something to be said for him having served time for his crime. It seems like a one off mistake but really not the sort of mistake a 34 year old man in a trusted profession should be making. Does that mean he and his wife should be denied access to IVF?
Every time I start to type my own definitive answer/opinion I change my mind! More shades of gray than you can shake a stick at!
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It depends on the age of the student IMO…
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I tend to agree. I’m absolutely not condoning his behaviour but I think there is a big difference between a 13 year olf girl and a 17 year old girl in terms of sexual maturity.
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I agree with this as well. But I also think that there is a big difference between a single youngish male teacher and one who is a committed relationship trying for a baby as this guy was.
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I think it was several years ago, not while he was in a relationship and trying for a baby as he is now…
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Yes, he is 34 now and was 22 then.
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Sorry, I got confused with another comment. It was 2009, so he would have been 30ish when it happened…
Hmmm
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thanks for clarifying alysskt – he was in a relationship with the woman in the video with him when the offence was made. And she has forgiven him.
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and she said they got together in 2006 so they were well into the relationship
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She’s really found a winner there!!
Maybe they need IVF because her eggs are smarter than she is.
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