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When I began kindergarten at Peats Ridge Public in 1966, our teacher, Miss Shoebridge, was very big on the three Rs of Reading, ‘Riting and ‘Rithmetic, but at the behest of the state there was a fourth R included, which was Religion. For one hour a week we studied the Christian scriptures – learning, seriously, how a dead man came to life, how God made the world in six days and on the seventh he rested, and how there is an inherent evil in humans all because, to steal a line, ”a woman made out of one rib bone and a mound of dirt was tricked into eating fruit from a magical tree by a talking snake”.
Miss Shoebridge, to be fair, was a wonderful teacher, but looking back, it was outrageous that should have been a part of my public education, because it was not ”education” at all, but ”inculcation”.
As a five-year-old, learning about the capital cities of Australia, how to spell ”cat”, how to write my name, and how to add up, how could I possibly make the distinction between learning all those facts and real tools of learning … and learning the aforementioned transparent nonsense? The answer is, I could not, and I was at least 15 years old, reading the stuff of Bertrand Russell, before I could see my way clear to begin liberating myself.
As the American neuroscientist and author, Sam Harris, says, ”Theology is little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings.”
Sure, the Christians don’t agree with that assessment, still less doctors of theology. But plenty of us do. And the state? The state must, of course, take an entirely neutral view. Our whole system is predicated on separation of church and state, so why on earth should our state schools formally endorse or encourage the teaching of any religion?
Is it not obvious, when you truly think about it, that religion has no place as the fourth R in public schools and it is not fair to children to so present it? While parents must be free to put this stuff in their kids’ heads, if they must, it is indeed the parents’ role, and not that of the state.
Is this such a revolutionary view? Hardly. The country with the greatest number of Christian nutters per holy hectare is of course the United States of America, and yet within their public education system there is not a skerrick of religious classes because of their devotion to that notion above all else.
For all that, Dr Rosner, are you and I really so far apart? I can’t remember who I am misquoting here, but the point is valid: there have been 10,000 different gods worshipped since the dawn of time. You have rejected 9999 of them as arrant and obvious nonsense. I counted up, and I have rejected just one more than you.
Let the children make their up own mind as to just how many they will reject, but the state should have no part, one way or t’other.
Should there be a place for religion in schools?
This is an edited extract of an article first published in the Sydney Morning Herald.
Comments
326 Comments so far
I think religion should be left to the family and/or church environment throughout primary. At high school age, exposure to comparative religion would do everyone some good.
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I appreciate ur opionion, but don’t degrade those whow believe in God,Creation and Christianity. We don’t believe in “make believe”……………..if u had a belief I would know I would not belittle ur choice. My children go to a Christian school. I was not brought up religious, but believe in God and admire the beliefs and values the school provides. It may not be appropriate for public schools, but neither is it appropriate for you to belittle religion in the way u do…………. how about open mindness?
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Yes, I agree. Fair enough you don’t believe in it, but it doesn’t mean you have to sneer at something that gives people hope and brings them together.
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My objection is that people complain about the lack of resources in state schools and whether they are teaching the basics properly, but for an hour a week my kids sit at the back of the class coloring in while their classmates talk about culturally biased and generally pretty sexist material, simply because the school was lobbied by a particular interest group. There are as many Muslim and Hindu and Sikh kids at my local state schools as “wasp” kids so why are my kids not learning about those religions? If you want religion in schools then fine but make it comparative, not biased.
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Most schools offer a range of scripture choices, depends on the volunteers they have available. I have never known a public/state school to have longer than 30 minutes of scripture a week.
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That’s exactly my point. It depends on who lobbies the school, it’s not pedagogically driven. If you teach it, make it uniform comparative religion, not the views of one group who happen to be particularly motivated. It should be all or nothing.
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This argument is so pointless. Scripture is NOT compulsory in public schools. I am sure the children, of parents who have opted them out, being treated unfairly is less common than most people think. Non-scripture is ALWAYS an option and usually children can read, listen to a story or draw during these 30 minutes. I am not religious but I am a teacher in the public system and have been for many years. To be honest, I actually admire those members of our community who give up their time to volunteer in our public schools to expose those who choose it to a particular religion.
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Being given a hard time is more subtle than you suggest. Being called “weird”, being told your mum is weird for not opting you in, being physically separated from your classmates as they sit together in re while you colour or draw – these are big things for kids.
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In my experience there are so many children in the non-scripture option separation from classmates does not even come into it. I wonder if people’s views on what actually happens are based on what you hear or if you have actually been there at the time.
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I am very involved in the school and have seen it. There are two or three kids at the back of the room and it is clear that they are viewed as oddities. I am prepared to accept that some people comment based on hearsay – much as you are commenting on the basis of “well I have never seen it”. In this case I have seen it, plus one of my closest friends takes the class so I have it from her, the kids, and my own eyes. Believe me, the social exclusion element is very real.
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Well in that case, that is very sad. Making children feel like oddities is never the right way to go. I am happy to say that I have never got that feeling about it in any of the schools I have worked in and all the non-scripture kids seem happy. When it is my turn to look after them I am always kind to them with stories etc. Maybe like so many things it depends on the time and place. It’s certainly a topic filled with passion that’s for sure.
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BRILLIANT post – so concisely and simply stated.
We shouldn’t go extreme secularism like France does – they’ve completely banned wearing Muslim head scarves and Christian crosses in schools, as well as even speaking out your religious beliefs in public places. That’s obviously too far. Religion isn’t something to hide, a school is just not the place to actively preach it.
However, I think religion should be taught at school as in, each kid should have a basic understanding of how each of the main religions work, and their beliefs. I went to a Presbyterian school; we were forced to sing hymns and go to ‘chapel’ and other such crap, but they also took us to synagogues, to seminars by influential Muslim women, and it was fantastic.
Religion will be such a big part of kids’ lives, whether they believe in it or not, and tolerance only comes from understanding and education.
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I had a Catholic schooling, so my experiences are obviously pretty different, but I never understand all the stuff I keep reading about how awful this sort of upbringing apparently is. We were never told that the stories in the Bible were true, in fact, we usually deconstructed them to figure out what they were getting at. My Studies of Religion teacher was also a Biology teacher. The Studies of Religion courses always included at least two, sometimes three (if you did the two unit course) in depth studies of different religions. Because we were a Christian school, Christianity was obviously one of them, but Judaism, Buddhism and Hinduism were also covered by different classes, and I found them all fascinating.
I don’t know, maybe I just had a particularly good run?
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I went to a Catholic school for both primary and secondary and I had the same experience- we learnt about many different belief systems which I think was both a learning exercise and a good way to teach kids tolerance for other people. Strangely despite having a religious upbringing I didn’t find it at all ‘confusing’ and don’t believe any lasting damage was done despite so many years of exposure.
As someone has already commented- aren’t scripture classes in public schools a choice anyway..?
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Absolutely agree with Peter. There is no place for religion in schools other than learning about it’s impact on culture and history. It’s quite OK to believe in your imaginery friends from a story written 2000 years ago, but don’t force kids with brains like sponges to believe too. Let them form their own opinions.
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I think I love you a little bit for posting this controversial subject.
Personally I prefer not to believe anything written 2000 years ago by people who thought the world was flat.
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Isaiah 40:22 “He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy and spreads them out like a tent to live in.”
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Should there be a place for religion in schools?
Simple answer: No
Longer answer: Unless it’s a school that defines themselves by their religion. It needs to be clear and every student should be ‘part’ of that religion. But this also means that the parents are telling their children they are ‘catholic’ or ‘muslim’ and the kids have no choice either. At some point you have to choose for yourself.
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If you argue that by putting their children in particular types of schools, parents are telling their children they are “Catholic” or “Muslim” etc, then aren’t you also implying that by enrolling them in activites such as football or dancing, then that is what defines them too? Obviously if the child doesn’t like it then they will choose not to participate (maybe not right away, but eventually). I have witnessed this in many different cases. I know many people who attended schools who defined themselves by particular religions, yet those people did not define themselves by it. Maybe it’s just a good school…..
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Religion, in my experience, instils guilt and horrific experiences for children. I went to Catholic and Christian schools, until my parents decided to take me out of a Christian school when they discovered I was gay – but it was too late, the damage had been done.
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Perhaps religion is taught to provide a “rounded” education. I don’t have a problem with it. At most of the schools in my area during what is called scripture, the students take part in religious studies. They are offered many different religions from Baha’i to Christianity and Judaism. If parents don’t want their children participating in these classes they can opt for non scripture which is usually held in the library where the students can read or do homework. Not a bad system. Surely studying religion helps students to understand the worl that they live in.
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I went to primary school in the 90s and my state school experience with RE was a generally positive one. Our teacher never forced his beliefs upon us but merely shared the stories of the bible with us. I don’t see anything wrong with children learning about the parable of the good samaratin or the prodigal son as it teaches children a sense of empathy, ethics and morals.
I am so sick of the Christian bashing that occurs within society today! Athiests, I have no problem with you being Athiest however, how did you come to the decision to be an Athiest without being informed about the religions that are out there first? To make your decision, you hopefully would had to have been exposed to the teachings of these religious people who put themselves out there before making an informed decision as to what your faith is. Then you turn around and bash their beliefs? So we take away the opportunity for people to become exposed to other people’s beliefs and as a result, people begin forming opionons based not on research but on a fear of the unknown (which in my opinion is how terrible things like racisim arise).
And don’t even get me started about how you don’t want your children to take some of the hairier stories of the Bible so literally. I believed in the stories of the Bible when I was little but was more scared of Santa coming into my house uninvited on Christmas Eve and of snakes in the front yard. Yes, I was worried about going to Hell but it wasn’t the top of my list and it made me make better decisions about my behaviour! And parents, your child will learn a lot more bad habits and behaviours from their state school friends than from their RE teacher and unless you want to home school them, there’s not much that you can do about that. Just hope that you raised them to develop enough of a sense of empathy, morals and ethics to deal with it.
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What a funny comment- how did atheists become atheist without having religious education. I never thought of that before.
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I can answer the question about atheism. I was raised an atheist. I wasn’t taught about religion until I was in third grade (prior to this, I was sent to non scripture at school) and I can assure you, with no religious teachings at all whatsoever, I easily was an atheist. I’m not an atheist now, though. You don’t need religion to be an atheist. Can’t believe I’m saying that lol
My ten year old daughter has never had anyone preaching at her (ok, two scripture incidents that we have been assurred will never happen again) and yet she identifies herself as an atheist. All an athiest needs to be classed as an atheist is that they don’t believe in god. You don’t need to be taught religion to decide you don’t believe in it.
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Exactly. What a stupid argument. Really, you can be taught science and decide you don’t believe in religion, or God, IMO.
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My point exactly. You only research one area, you only get one informed point of view and therefore, come to a one-sided conclusion. Religion is not an opposition of Science and at times, has no relation to Science and so your argument that “you can be taught science and decide you don’t believe in reigion” is shaky at best. Religion also teaches morals and ethics. For example, the parable of the prodigal son has nothing to do with Sciene. If you actually opened yourself up to learnng about Science AND Religion/Theology, you might actually see that many people do not take the readings of the bible literally but rather, see them as a way that people 2000 years ago explained the world around them (much lke the Aboriginals and their Dreamtime stories). That Adam and Eve is a story to explain the Big Bang theory and evolution etc. In my opinion, if people were a little more informed, they would be less afraid of religion and therefore, be less agressive when discussng it.
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Here’s the thing, though: in those years of my life when I’d had no indoctrination, I was HAPPY! Why would anyone who is happy believing what they believe, need to be preached at?
I’m all for learning ABOUT religions and in finding out who believes what. I respect that others enjoy their religion, but I wish I hadn’t gone to scripture as a child. And I certainly don’t want that for my kids.
However, I talk to my eldest daughter all the time about religion and what different religions believe in, customs, etc. I think that’s a more ‘informed point of view’ than sending her to scripture classes at school. SRE is more biased than simply talking about what all the different religions entail.
And WHY is there this pressure to have to make a choice? They’re kids! Are you as passionate about children being ‘informed’ about all religions, or just yours?
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BRILLIANT Peter. Love it and totally agree.
I have no qualms with any religion being taught in schools – if they are private. But the government should not fund schools to have religious teachings. I think a studies in religion class might be beneficial to students, but a) at an older age (high school), b) not just Christianity and c) from an educational point of view. i.e. Teaching that X and Y is what X religion believes/teaches, and NOT ‘this is what happened, the world is 6000 years old’ etc.
I to did studies in religion and was given the choice whether to do it or not. Luckily, if you didn’t do it, you stayed in the classroom with the teacher and did regular work, whilst those who opted for bible classes (as it was only christianity) went to the library with the church volunteer. I think this was fair, but I still don’t think there’s a place in public schools.
I also think that if you can’t afford a private school and want your kid to learn bible stories, teach them yourself. It’s not up to the state to teach your children your personal morals and religious beliefs.
Way to go, Peter!
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I completely agree with Peter. And in any case, if religion were to be the fourth R in schools, its obvious which religion it would be, Christianity. This in itself is wrong because it invalidates other religions, how many are there now…100? It raises the serious question what makes Christianity more worth knowing about than its main rival, Islam. Ok, forget about Islam – too obvious, how about Buddhism? Hinduism? – what makes these any less worth being the fourth R? … dillemma.
So religion, which would ideally be Christianity in Australia – lets not kid ourselves, has no place in schools, and its up to the parents to raise their kids as Christians, Muslims, Hindus or whatever they decide to. Its not in the place of schools to do so – not in such a multicultural country. Its wrong and frankly selfish. Excellent article. Five stars.
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We had an hour each week of religious education in primary school. Which, by the way, was not compulsory to attend so those kids of other religions (not Christian) were free to sit out if their parents wanted them to. It was run completely by generous volunteers who were willing to give up their time to teach us a little bit about the Christian faith.
I am extremely grateful for it! I think it is so opening (for want of a better word) to learn about different religions. I think ideally it would be great to learn about a couple of religions at school but of course that is extremely hard to do given limited resources.
Now as an adult I am able to look critically at different religions by using what I learned in primary school and through my own experiences and decide what I believe in. I don’t think that any harm comes out of having religion taught in school.
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I wrote my daughter a note to not be included in these classes when she was in Grade 2. So they stuck her up the back with a maths worksheet. She still overheard everything that was being taught PLUS had the added bonus of being excluded in the same room as her peers whilst being punished with a boring worksheet. Needless to say…there were words.
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Terrible. Sounds like blackmail to me. Kid’s being made to go to religion class ( = christianity class in Australia), or get punished. …they’re lucky you got there before me Miss ericastone;)
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This was my children’s experience too, only they wernt given anything at all to do – just sit, like they were in trouble. The overhearing bit included the news that ‘bad people go down to hell ” as opposed to heaven, which is up in the sky. Later, at Nanna’s funeral, when her coffin was lowered into the ground, my son became distressed that she was being treated as a bad person and sent to hell.
Words cant express how appalled I am by this being allowed to happen at a school.
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Thank you, thank you, thank you Peter, for writing the above article. Caught it in the paper also, and was so pleased I did. It’s lovely when someone so eloquently writes about something I have long been trying to get across to others. The second last paragraph resonated with me the most – 9,999 rejected versus 10,000. It’s really hard to beat logic like that.
I went to a public primary school in the 80s, and was forced to attend weekly scripture and recite the Lord’s Prayer daily (military-style I might add), and to this day I have no idea why that was the case. One of the playground areas was even called “God’s Little Acre” – what the?! It was a public school, not a Christian one. Broad and balanced teaching about all religions and cultures (as far as practicable, AND distinguishing the difference between religion and culture) is what children need when they are young. With that kind of foundation, they will have the knowledge and confidence to make up their own minds when they are older.
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I’d love to be able to end the confusion between religious indoctrination and what amounts to cultural studies.
A study of comparative religions that develops an understanding of the festivals, rites and holy books/stories of different religions is a fantastic way to learn about the world and build tolerance towards others.
Then there is religious indoctrination which occurs when a person of what- ever religion tries to convince others of the truth of their religion and beliefs.
In Australian public schools the religion most likely to be ‘taught’ is Christianity.
(Which is probably why Peter is discussing Christianity rather than Zoroastrianism or anything else.).
It is inappropriate for children to be told that Christian/ Bible stories are
“true stories”, it is inappropriate for kids to be told about notions of heaven and hell as if they are reality. Christianity is faith based, kids should not be expected to make leaps of faith at public schools.
And you people who think that the fact that Australians celebrate Christmas and Easter makes us Christian, think again. These occasions have become cultural rather than religious for most of society. Having fun on a public holiday does not make a person or a nation religious.
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Fantastic, thank you for articulating exactly what I have been trying to for so so long….
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I think Pete’s done well digging for comments……..
What I want to know is; Do all you so called ‘non-religious’ celebrate Easter and Christmas????…….Pete are you gonnna tell the kids they can’t bring in Christmas cards or Easter eggs to school???? The ‘non-religious’ go on and on about how they are good for goodness sake and religion this and that….but they very happily celebrate religious events !!
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My kids celebrate easter as the day an invisible bunny rabbit brings them chocolate eggs. And Christmas is the day that Santa sneaks in unseen and leaves presents underneath highly decorated plastic pine-tree. The birth and death of Jesus doesn’t feature at all.
While both days are also days when we make the effort to get together and enjoy the company of family and friends they are in no way Christian celebrations for us.
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“they are in no way Christian celebrations for us.”
BAHAHAHAHA
It’s called “CHRISTmas” – there is no such thing as Christmas if you’re not a Christian.
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In our house 25th December is called The Festival of Santa. You can celebrate that too if you like, even if you don’t believe in him.
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We put Jupiter on top of our tree – as that was the “star” that the astrologers (err, wise men) actually spotted in the sky. Each to their own huh?
I still want presents.
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Giftmas, then.
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Actually, both Christmas and Easter are originally Pagan feasting days. The story goes Jesus was born at a time ‘while shepherds watching their flocks by night’. That means Spring. Which in Israel, is about March. December was dead of winter. The Pagan feasting day, actually in winter (and thus December, as this is Europe) was a way of making offering to the gods (plural). You kill a beast, whatever you can afford and sit around and eat. Christianity took the day and moulded it to their day about Jesus. Same goes for Easter. Easter was originally the fertility festival. Why do you think we have eggs and bunnies? Both are symbols of fertility. Again, Christianity took it away from the pagans and made it about Jesus. I celebrate both these days as Pagan festivals – to me this has far more meaning, because most pagan festivals are actually about coming together as a community or family and sharing something. If people want to celebrate the birth of Jesus or his resurrection, fine. But please don’t tell others that they can’t do it in another way, because these events were NOT invented by Christianity.
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In Christianity the egg is a symbol of rebirth…as in resurrection. This is the actual connection to eggs at Easter for Christians…the rabbit is pure consumerism.
Not saying that there aren’t pagan equivalents of both Christmas and Easter, but I don’t think it’s fair, or accurate, to say they weren’t invented by Christianity when as they exist today in most societies that celebrate them they are intrinsically linked with a Christian belief system not paganism. For those who don’t mark them as a religious celebration guaranteed someone in their family once did.
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I went to a Christian school for 13 years and even we were told they were ‘borrowed’ from the pagans…
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so it’s OK to lie to your kids…but its not OK to teach them traditions and culture?
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I think you’ll find that ‘lying’ to children about the existence of the easter bunny and Santa *is* traditional in Australian culture. Even for some staunch Christians. Not ideal perhaps, but then generations of children seem to have survived the ordeal without needing therapy so hopefully mine will too.
And my family enjoys both tradition and culture, but none of it reflects Christian ritual or dogma on account of the fact that we are not Christian.
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Hi Mizanthrop!!! **Waves to long lost friend**
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**blows kiss**
Hi Kris, belated congrats on your little miss!
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Thanks! We’re doing great. Did feet paintings at reading group today – she was uber-impressed with that!
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I’ll give Christmas and Easter back to the Christians, but only if they promise to give them back to the pagans first! Like everything else festive days are adapted to suit the prevailing culture, not vice versa
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Bravo!
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going to
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Its interesting you mention easter and christmas? Its clear from your perspective religion = christianity – you’ve already fallen on the first hurdle of your argument. This is so not true, and to be teaching this to kids at an early age is not only wrong, it is selfish. It is teaching kids to be narrow-minded and ignorant when it comes to religion. There’re over 100 religions. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with being a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or anything else, just keep it in your home. Five stars Peter.
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We don’t celebrate xmas or easter in this family and we are non religious
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I would rather my children be taught what the various philosophies and theologies are in the world than not. Education us to understand and to encourage tolerance and an open mind to the differences of opinion and beliefs and cultures. I don’t want my kids to be stuck in an ignorant vacuum because no-one gave them the chance to ask questions. Spiritual education and learning how to be a good person is just as important as the rest. Teaching biology and reading and maths doesn’t address this.
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I haven’t read through other comments on here, so I’m sorry if I’m repeating what’s been said
In this day and age, there’s no place for religion as a compulsory subject in schools. There is SO much diversity in this country in terms of cultures and religions. It isn’t the responsibility of the education system to dictate what our kids should believe. It’s up to families.
By all means, teach kids about the multitude of beliefs that exist in our society, but don’t offer a prescriptive, “One Way Jesus” kind of approach. That’s what I was offered all through my school years, and it’s turned me off religion
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Very well said Jane:)
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I don’t think religion should be banned.
I think old men wearing bandanas should be banned.
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Very mature Hayley. Well done
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Thank you
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I believe that religion (all religions) should be taught as part of History in schools. It is important to learn and understand different beliefs, but let’s not indoctrinate our children before they have the capacity to understand what each religion stands for and make up their own mind…
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I too have a huge issue with religious education in public schooling. Its is MY choice how I educate my children in this area, however I have had several instances during my children’s education whereby my beliefs have not been respected. My eldest child came from a staunch catholic family on her father’s side. Although we had separated by the time she was at school, I was under significant pressure from her father’s family for her to at least attend scripture. I acquiesced, until the scripture teacher smacked my child on the head one day. I was ropable. When I spoke to the Principal he said ‘oh but she isnt a staff member, just some old biddy from the church’. I almost launched at him and told him ‘No-one touches my child at school!! No-One!’ And promptly put her into Non-scripture.
With my second child, and at a different – State – school it became apparent that the staff were predominantly religious, when my child’s time in nonscripture was utilised writing out the school ethics policy. I contacted the Department of Education straight away, as my child should not effectively be punished because of my beliefs!! The Principal actually told me that as a result of a staffroom conversation that the decision was to make non-scripture ‘not appealing’ so that other children who were supposed to be attending scripture didn’t try to join non-scripture??!!
My youngest was also exposed to a significant dose of religious education regarding Christmas last year, coming home talking about the baby jesus , star of Bethlehem etc etc. It makes me livid that in a society as evolved and mulitcultural as today, these backward beliefs in forced indoctricnation still exist?!
I studied both Modern and Ancient History at school and found that religion in context throughout history to be an interesting and palatable subject given my feelings towards organised religion, but I maintain that it is MY decision to make, not the School or teaching staff’s.
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I remember being about ten or maybe even younger when i was told that God saw and knew everything you did which was the cause of some serious paranoia and wasted hours trying to trick god..I think let kids deciede when they are old enough to grasp the concept..
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How are kids to decide if they old enough to grasp something if they havn’t heard it?
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The problem is not so much what they won’t know, its what is they are being taught. Religion is not like most subjects where for the most part there’s a way to do a question and there’s an answer. In Australian schools, religion = Christianity – let’s be frank bout this. This is the wrong approach because there’re are over 20 legitimate religions, if not more. This is the problem..
I think this should be left to parents as Peter says because Australia is so multicultural, it has no place for Christianity in schools – not in public schools. Some private schools may choose to teach Christianity, Islam or anything else, that’s perfectly fine – parents have a choice to take their kids there, but to make it an Australian- wide subject is wrong, and frankly selfish.
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If in Australian schools religion =christianity, is it a fair assumption that christianinty is fairly prevalent in our society and that could be a good reason for children to be taught about it?
I support RE in schools, my experience of it was not a weekly class though which i can see is over the top for public schools but I do see relevance in RE lessons occuring once a semester
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I can safely say that I don’t want my children being taught ANYTHING religious in school. I believe that is up to the parents to teach their children. I am an atheist and have written on my son’s enrolment forms that he is to have no religious education at all. But he came home the other day telling me about a big giant that lives in the sky that watches you and that this “giant” made the world. WTF?!? He is only 7 and took this as being fact. It took me a long time to explain to him how the world was really made and that no one was watching him (he was a bit freaked out). When they are in high school I have no problem with them being taught theology as I think it is important for them to understand where some people’s religious views come from. But religion has NO PLACE in a public school, especially around very impressionable young children.
I must add that my RE teacher told me that anyone that wasn’t “born again” would go to hell, even if they were a baby or intellectually disabled and that the devil created dinosaurs because god would never create an ugly creature like a T-Rex. She also said that demons hide under your bed and will get you while you sleep if you have been bad. This is the kind of stupid nonsense that I don’t want my children to hear.
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I wonder if its possible he learnt that from other students and not a teacher/adult?
If children to each other about religiong, stating it as fact – because they have been taught it to be fact ouside of school, is this bad?
perhaps it is better to have organised classes which parents are aware of as they can talk to their children about what they’ve learnt and whether or not you agree with it?
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I think I was 10 when I asked my parents to write me a note to excuse me from scripture. They weren’t religious but didn’t want to influence my choices. I spent that hour every Friday reading novels- a religion I have remained faithful to
As for the rest, i suppose I am spiritual without dogma.
Some have called me strong minded though. Not many believed i was a choice I made for myself. I believe like many do that the problem is not necessarily religion, it’s the lack of choice.
http://www.withoutpeanut.com
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Yes, Sharon, I was thinking about this too – people will send their kids to Catholic schools because they’re “better” because they’re private. What if your closest private school is Islamic?
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Others have pointed this out, but I want to add my support to the sentiment:
Why wouldn’t you replace the word, “Christian” with “Muslim” or “Jew?”
Why is it acceptable to be so vile and rude to Christians, yet tip-toe around every other faith?
I get really, really nervous when a specific group is singled out.
I get really, really annoyed at the intellectual laziness that puts Christians as the root of all evil.
I’m not Christian. I don’t want specific religions taught as fact in public schools – so I agree with many of the post’s arguments.
I just despise this sort of Atheist arrogance.
Only agnostics have a right to any sort of absolutism, because they’re smart enough to know that they don’t know…
But have you ever heard an agnostic be rude, arrogant, offensive and declare that only she/he could possibly be right?
Wish I were an agnostic – *sigh*
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As always there is a reaction that there is “Christian Bashing” happening. What about the bashing of us “heathens” from religions? We get excluded because we don’t follow faiths. We get told all sorts of horrible things will happen to us for not sharing a belief. It happens between religions too.
Like I’ve said I have enormous respect for faith. Organised religion, indoctrination and not questioning? Not so much.
I don’t understand how when the majority of people here are agreeing that public = secular, that it is an attack on a faith? To feel that way your faith must be a bit shaky to begin with.
Majority are also saying similar to me – No problem with faith, or belonging to a particular religion, just rather it wasn’t in public schools. And I think most of us are very keen on the idea of comparative religion subjects for primary and secondary school – this is Christianity, this is what they believe, there are different sects, here are the differences…, and so on through Islam, Buddhism, Judaism etc etc etc.
I still find it astounding that its those who went to Catholic schools who had to study comparative religion for their HSC but we had no such thing in a public school.
So yeah, keep your shirts on. No-one is saying ban your religion. If it means so much to you that your kids learn it at school, send them to a school that is your religion or do it yourself. I assume those who are so keen on it are devout enough that you go to your religious place of worship regularly and are active in it’s community.
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A few things:
Firstly, regular readers of this site know that I live in the sticks and our way of doing things is vastly different to the way things are done in the city, simply because we are a tiny, remote, rural community. There is one school – a State School – and religion is taught there simply because there is no other outlet in our community that offers it. We have no priest, no regular church services, no Sunday School. Every 3 months the Flying Padre comes to town and spends the day with the school kids – all 40 of them – and teaches them the basics about God, Jesus, and the fundamentals of religion. If the Government were to ban the teaching of religion in State Schools, it would simply mean that our little community would lose yet another vital piece of itself. I understand the author’s point that if you want your kids to learn religion, teach them yourself, but I also believe that the children absorb and enjoy learning when it is done en masse. A group of kids learning together is a lot more beneficial that one-on-one at home.
Secondly, regarding the actual teaching of religion – what is so wrong about teaching our children about the cultures and religious beliefs of others? Perhaps if we all had a deeper understanding of other people’s religions and ways of life, it would go a long way into making us more tolerant, empathetic and understanding of other people. After reading all the comments late last night, I understand that I am in the overwhelming minority, but I believe there is a place for religion in state schools: the teaching of ALL types of religion. When I was at school, we learned about many different religions (I went to a catholic school). With the help of our teacher we would pick a religion and learn about it. It was fascinating. And it also answered a lot of questions I had as an inquisitive 10 year old. The school cirriculum is not going to make everyone happy all of the time: I have a son with ongoing health problems, and as a result, cannot play much sport. In a sports-mad community, this is challenging. And sport is a compulsary part of school life. Guess what he does when he’s unable to play? He sits out and does a colouring-in. My point here is my son learns that the world does not revolve around him. The other kids are able to do sport, so he has to just sit out and watch. To an extent, the same theory could apply to the teaching of religion. Some kids actually enjoy it. Some are genuinely interested to know more about it. And for those who aren’t interested or whose parents have opted out, they sit out and do a colouring. In the same way schools offer sport and music and art, those who want to, do, and those who don’t, sit out. Why are we so damn precious when it comes to religion? Do we really think that religious instructors are put into schools to manipulate and brainwash kids?
Thirdly, a little gripe with the way this post was written. While we are expected to adhere to the “dinner party” analogy regarding our comments, I don’t feel that the author of this post has extended us the same courtesy. I felt it was disrespectful and rude, and it had me on the back foot from the first paragraph. If I were sitting at a table with the author, I would probably have gotten up and left. I understand that certain subjects (religion, politics, same-sex marriage) spark a more feisty debate than other subjects, but – and I’ve said this before – every time an article on religion comes up on this site, I don’t feel that the subject matter is treated with the same courtesy and respect as other touchy subjects. Please understand that there some people – me included – for whom religion is a very important part of life. I’m all for a good, healthy debate, but I’ve found on more than a couple of occasions on here of late, some of the posts have been delivered in a really rude manner. The value-adding post was one. This is another. Fear not, this is not my letter of resignation; just wanted to put my thoughts across.
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Miss Benita – it certainly sounds like you’re in a unique situation with no religious outlets in your town besides school. However, the fact is that it’s not like a history class where an objective teacher outlines all the religions of the world and gives equal weight to all beliefs and puts them in context. That may have been your experience of learning religion in the Catholic system but these state school classes are run by volunteer Christians who teach their view of the world. So, not only do non-believers have to sit aside but also children of other religions as well.
And yes, as a non-believer I am worried that my young child will believe everything taught by a representative of the church. He’s still very young and a complete sponge when it comes to new information. We don’t believe in God, Jesus or the Bible and until such time as we can properly explain to our children why we have these beliefs and they can make up their own mind about religion and how it has a context in history, I don’t want 30 minutes of school wasted each week. Put yourself in the shoes of a non-believer and tell me how you’d feel if every week for 30 minutes an athiest taught your child all the reasons that God doesn’t exist and how science proves all that we know about life. Religion is about belief systems and school is no place to indoctrinate my child with information that should be learnt at home. If the classes were to be removed and religion is important to you and your family, then I would suggest that you could teach your children for 30 minutes each week.
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Janey, one could argue that Christians cop more than 30minutes a week of people spurting that they believe in rubbish, and that atheism is ‘logic’ while religion is tripe. There is no way to ‘turn it off’ or ‘attend a non-scripture’ life…
The fact of life is just because people believe different things doesnt make them right or wrong, and just because you are being taught something does not make you indoctrinated, just informed.
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Well, who is that’s telling them that what they believe in is rubbish? Certainly not me. I have no problem with anyone else’s faith, just as I hope that anyone of faith respects my non-beliefs. I have plenty of friends across the spectrum of religions and whilst I may disagree with their beliefs, I certainly don’t disrespect their position. It would be interesting to know more about where this ‘Christian bashing’ is coming from because I certainly don’t see it in the wide array of media that I consume on a weekly basis.
This whole argument isn’t about what you believe in versus what I believe in and I agree with you that people believing in different things doesn’t make them right or wrong (although I would certainly argue on the basis of science my own beliefs but that’s not relevant right now).
The argument is that at this stage in my child’s young life, he is impressionable and takes the things he learns very seriously. I will reiterate the point time and time again that unless you are a christian or wish for your child to be taught the beliefs of christians, these classes by their very nature exclude people of no religion and other religions. Also, being ‘informed’ about a topic is totally different to being told by a church representative about stories from the bible and their own christian belief systems. Unless those classes call for children to challenge any of the ideas, yeah I’d call it indoctrination not being ‘informed’.
If the classes covered the gamut of religions, representation was equal and children could challenge ideas, then perhaps it could be considered as an option for all students. Until then, in a secular society, church should be separate from state.
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*applauds*
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YES YES YES
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Wow. What a hateful article. I’m an agnostic who was bought up with Christianity and before choosing to mostly reject my religion, read other faiths widely.
I have to say, Christianity has some really valid moral and ethical stories in the new testament. It would be a shame to lose this in rejecting the whole thing. A lot of our laws, sayings and society are also based on this religion. An understanding of it is useful.
Buddhism has some fairy tale elements too, but I do not belittle or reject the wonderful messages it possesses either.
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why is it acceptable to be a ‘vocal athiest’ but a vocal Christian, Jew, Muslim… not so much?
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I think people who think they are Athiest like saying the word Athiest
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Wow, what a great contribution to the debate. Based on what?
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Mocking Christianity is something that comes easily to Mamamia. While I respect the author’s views, some of which I agree with, I do find it odd that MM continually publishes anti-Christian posts, but never anti-Islamic posts.
Islam is responsible for more homophobia, degradation of women and human rights abuses than Christianity, yet MM steers clear of questioning that religion. The hypocrisy of the Left is mind-boggling.
Christian scripture classes have been part of our education system since Federation. The nation we are today was raised with generation after generation of adults, who as part of their education, heard about Jesus or Judaism. The result hasn’t been too bad has it? By all means declare public education religion-free. I agree.
But mocking of our founding religious tradition, while ignoring that it was a guiding pillar of societal behaviour is disingenuous. Singling out Christianity for censure is clearly hypocritical.
Mamamia’s bias with such issues is overwhelming.
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Gig, did you see Erica Bartle’s post on her Christian faith a month or two ago? http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/christianity-and-my-daily-life/
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1 post about faith, in comparison to this article, the one on chaplaincy and so on?
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There was also Meshel Laurie’s piece about her faith, there was John James’ piece on his atheism, just off the top of my head recently.
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definitely not balanced
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Well said.
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Enough people question Islam without mamamia adding to it, as proved by your post.
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Sharons….Islam is rarely mocked….too scared to
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Yeahhhh GIG….well said!
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Gig…….very well said. I am a Christian and enjoy reading most articles on MM but am getting fed up with constant Anti Christian articles
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My personal view is that issues of religion should be left to parents to educate their children about. That one hour out of the curriculum each week would be better spent on other areas. Perhaps a more relevant topic to everyone could be ethics or “life skills” courses that specifically teach character building, citizenship and so on.
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I attended a Catholic primary school and high school. Our religion classes involved learning about all the major religions, outreach work (like food drives and soup vans) and critical discussion about the Christian faith. The best RE class I had was run by an ex-priest who really encouraged us to openly dispute teachings in the bible.
No one will benefit from one-sided scripture teaching, in the same way that no one will benefit from a bitter, negatively tainted recount of their religious experience. Im fairly sure Mrs Shoebridge was taught you to respect one another in her stories about a “dead man” Peter. Use your dinner party manners and be a little more tolerant of other people’s beliefs.
Mamamia, you wouldn’t publish an article that openly offended and belittled other major faiths. There are plenty of other articulate writers who would’ve done justice to the religion in school debate. This regular reader finds it very hard to understand why you decided to republish this thoughtless piece.
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Well said!
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Sorry about the typo’s below but its also late
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I find this article very offensive. And why would Mama Mia want to republish this article. Even if I do agree with this article and its contents regarding the teaching of Christian religion in public schools, what gives you and Peter Fitzsimons the right and freedom to openly offend people with Christian beliefs. Mr Fitzsimon, when you are quoting the Old Testament and referring to “how god made the world in six days and on the seventh he rested,…a woman made out of one rib bone and a mound of dirt was tricked into eating fruit from a magical tree by a talking snake”.This is also the teachings of the Jewish faith. In fact Islam also believe that Jesus existed as a prophet of Muhammed. However, you are directly referring to Christians in this article as he and others in this furum constantly Christian do.
For your information, I am not religious but do I find this article deeply offensive in the way it is written and its condesending tone to Christianity.
This has happened far too many times on Mama Mia and I can honestly say that this time. you have lost me as a regular reader.
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Bravoooooo, well said this site would be shut down if Peter had commented on Muslim beliefs!!!!!
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I attended a religious school (religious education once a week, chapel most mornings etc). Today I am agnostic, however, I’m really glad that I got a religious grounding. Why? Because it’s a bit scary how many people these days don’t know anything about religion. I had to educate my boyfriend on how the church of england came about. There’s nothing wrong with a bit of religious education as part of the overall mix – noone’s being indoctrinated. Maybe we should just relax a bit more and not make such a big deal out of it…I don’t have kids yet, but judging from many of the commentators on this site, there’s plenty more things out there to worry about aside from religious education…!
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Very bias . And brainwashing in itself.
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RE in schools would be more useful if it wasn’t just learning about different religions. It needs to be disseminated to students the same way as theories of economics, or philosophy or political science. Instructors should be able to say to kids, “Here is this religion. These are its tenets, its customs, this is its history. Let us discuss.”
At the moment, it’s just show and tell, with zero opportunity for kids to critically reflect. Why? Because we’re meant to be tolerant. And respectful. These two words again.
One of the big problems as pointed out by Harris, Dawkins and their ilk, is that religion is afforded a special status, rendering it difficult, impossible or downright dangerous to criticize it. Why? Because it’s special? Because it holds more meaning to people than, say, the theory of evolution or Einstein’s General Relativity?
I say nothing should be exempt from critical analysis. The trouble is that many people believe this only apples to ‘man made’ constructs.
Anyone that says it’s harmless to have RE in schools or that it is beneficial, needs to also allow for proper discussion in RE classes, where students can ask questions. If they’re not willing to do this, then I question why they think it’s ok for RE to be there at all. What purpose does it serve, then?
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Interestingly, I know some pretty hardcore Christians (a couple of ministers and ministers in training, a few who’ve done bible study), and some pretty hardcore Muslims too, and they are the most critical of their religion! Which can only be a good thing. Also demonstrates the strength of their faith.
I’m critical of religion, but I’m quite in awe of faith. Especially when the abovementioned are some of the smartest people I know, and they still have this faith. It’s a leap I just can’t make.
I would’ve loved to have a comparative religion class back in the day. That would’ve been a tops 2U subject! Scripture was a waste of time though. We just used to argue with the teacher until we realised they wouldn’t bust us for not showing up.
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Having gone to both a catholic school and high school, religion was always a very big part of my schooling. Now, as an adult, I have the same view as Peter. As a kid, I was being taught these things, these stories, as fact. How was I going to be able to distinguish that maybe there wasn’t a man who died on a cross, or heave and hell, when I still believed that Santa was real, and was simultaneously being taught the basic rules of mathematics.
I can’t remember how old I was, but sometime in high school… maybe when I was about 13 or 14, I started to question whether all of the religion stuff was real, or whether I in-fact didn’t believe in God. But it felt kind of, wrong… I had been taught these beliefs as truth for my entire life, so to turn around and decide that I didn’t believe them felt like I was doing something wrong. All of my friends at school had been raised the same way, so it was always difficult to gauge who actually believed the religion stuff, and who was beginning to question it like I was. None of my friends were hard core into religion, but it was still a subject that I decided it would probably just be best to steer clear of.
Now, a little older and having been out of that all-catholic environment for 4 years, I can firmly say that I personally don’t believe in any of it. That’s not to say that I have anything against those who do believe, or think that either of us is wrong.
What annoys me most is people who blindly badmouth people who do believe in religion. Who talk down about their beliefs, simply because they personally don’t believe. As far as I see it, it is a personal choice. You can believe in whatever you want, or not believe at all … if you are a good person, are kind, and do not look down on others because they are different to you, then you will always have my respect.
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I did something called Comparative Religions in school, where we learned about the major faith traditions in a non-judgmental way (one term Buddhism, one term Islam etc). I think that was beneficial. I don’t agree with compulsory scripture though.
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I agree with the many sentiments below about RE being more about learning about each religion and their beliefs and customs. With such a multinational country it will help future generations by the way of tolerance.
I am not sur i mind too much about little ones not being able to determine if these bible stories etc are fact or fiction, the messages in them are stll valid today are they not?
When i was young, had RE in school, i was in the anglican group, we lived 3 houss down from a uniting church, on sunda mornings i would get myself up and ready and go to sunday school. There was a lady who walked past on her way so she would walk with me, thinking bac it was more abou playing with other kids than the religin etc.
On from that our neighours were baptist, and in school holidays the baptis church ran an adventure club, like vacation care. I went with my neighbours to that, i am sur there was some religious content but Obviously wasnt scarred by it.
My nan went to the anglican church, sometimes after sunday school she would be up as she lived with us, and i would then go with her to that.
In the end, i follow no religion, not because people have rammed stories down my throat, good or bad, but because after exposure to all those different religions, it just didnt stick as i got older.
My husband and i married in a paddock, with a celebrant and no readings or references to god or the lord.
I am glad my parents never stopped or expressed their negativity towards religion on me and that i was young enough to take the stories of scripture and sunday school as the lessons they were meant to be. I am pleased that i know the stories of east and christmas and a few others, i wish i had learnt about judaism and the rest, but dont feel we should be robbing the children of the chance t be young and believe if they choose. As they grow up, just like santa and the easterr bunny, then the doubt can be created about the validity for them to make their own choice.
My thoughts only….
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Thank you for your article Peter. As a primary school teacher I have witnessed Religious Education ‘taught’ in schools by well meaning volunteers. (As the school teacher must stay in the room when the lessons are conducted) I have cringed when 8 year olds have been told there bodies will rot in the ground – or that whatever you pray for will come true. (Apparently the R.E. teacher was stuck on a gondala, and needing to go to the toilet prayed that the sensation went away. And.. .magically it did).
My two children will not be attending R.E. in school but, as parents we will edcuate our children about all faiths – and if one resonates will them so be it. Let’s hope R.E. is removed from public schools soon.
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in a world where people are killing each other based on their skin colour, sexual orientation, and which god they do or don’t believe in, I believe that the most important thing we should do is to teach TOLERANCE. by educating (not converting, but educating) our country about different faiths, children will hopefully learn to respect the others’ beliefs, and respectfully co-exist. Being educated in catholic schools, i can understand how people may think I’m biased, but I seriously do believe that growing up in an environment where I was exposed to many different schools of thought, I learnt to appreciate the beliefs of other people even when I didn’t agree.
The worst thing we can do is “outlaw” religion in schools. This raises children with the idea that religion is completely untrue. I’m not necessarily saying that it is or isn’t true, but by attributing negative connotations to it we are breeding a new generation of fearful, prejudiced people. Have we learnt nothing in the ten years since 9/11?
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I don’t honestly see what the big deal is. Give kids a bit of credit. I did RE for an hour once a week in primary school. Even then I realized Noah’s Ark was impossible… It’s just a story, like Cinderella. A bit of Jonah and the Whale reenacted with sock puppets is hardly going to turn you into an abortion clinic-bombing nutter.
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I don’t know whether anyone else has mentioned this, but in the UK, their Religious Education is actually education about religions. All religions. They spend a bit of time spending all sorts of religions so that by the end of primary school, they have an understanding of a wide range of beliefs, without having been taught that one is the RIGHT religion.
How sensible! Surely this is the way to create understanding and tolerance for other people’s beliefs?
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well said!
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this is a great idea, we should all learn about all religions, just like we learn about different cultures.
to be honest i don’t actually know i they do RE at my kids school. they certainly haven’t come home talking about it. i should check that one though!
great post pete, i love your writing style!
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Let’s stick to teaching our children the facts and not some hocus pocus dreamed up by various groups. Culture is fact, how people lived, celebrated etc. Religion is all based around theory.. I would rather my kids learnt fact than fiction.
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What about learning about enlgish literature – fiction? When we read Shakespeare at schol we learned about the morals/meaning Shakespeare was expressing.
I know this is diffierent to religion but a blanket statement or fact vs fiction in schools would leave out a lot ofwonderful stories which teach us about morals etc.
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We clearly identify fiction literature is fiction, however religion is treated as fact when proof of the pudding is it is far from that.
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True. I’m personally still in favour of RE but think it could help to have it properly introduced in letters to parents and before lessonsto children inlcuding that theinformation taught is believed true by christians but not everyone
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forget our christian heritage at this countries peril,a people with no measure of what is right or wrong is standing on shifting sand.I understand the attraction of a world without God ,but there is a God who we answer too,like it or not
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Sorry Julia, you can answer to your god, but I answer to no mythical being.
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Where does this crazy idea come from?
The one that suggests that christianity is the only moral force in the world.
It is offensive.
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What a brilliant article. I agree 100%. Religion should have no place in public schools.
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fabulous article peter and says perfectly why i send my child to a non-demoninational school- religion and faith should be left to familes to teach, as we all have diverse beliefs (and non-beliefs). My children’s school teaches values, and I think this is more important than learning about history and how some people interpreted it and wrote it in a book many years ago.
thanks peter for voicing this opinion.
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