How much money should our schools receive? How much should private schools get? What about public schools? A Federal Government review into the current system – and how it could be done better – will be made public on Monday. It’s called the Gonski Review after its independent head businessman David Gonski, AC.
Passionate public education advocate and President of the Australian Council of Educators Lyndsay Connors, tells the following story.
“A few weeks ago I was at an education dinner function here in Sydney when a man sitting next but one on my left announced that ‘this Gonski Review is a real worry’. Naturally, I was intrigued and I bent forward to catch his drift.
When asked by the chap next to him what he meant, he said that he would not like to ‘verbal’ the Gonski panel and would, therefore, quote their actual words.
He reached down into his briefcase and then brandished what I later was able to identify as the Emerging Issues Paper released by the Gonski Review late last year.
“Listen to this” he said. “This is what it says. It says that ‘equity should ensure that differences in educational outcomes are not the result of differences in wealth, income, power or possessions.
“Yes”, I said. “Is there a problem with that?”
“It’s Marxism”, he said.”
I find this anecdote particularly revealing because I have found myself being called a leftie (I can’t be all that left wing having spent 30 years in advertising, the coal face of capitalism) mostly because I am vocal in my support for and belief in the importance of public education. Quite frankly, the idea that publicly provided high quality educational opportunities for all has become a sign of communist or socialist tendencies terrifies me.
Surely, all reasonable Australians would agree that a child’s educational opportunities should not be limited by their parent’s ability to pay? After all, no child is disadvantaged through any of their own doing. They have simply been unlucky in the lottery of birth and been born into a family that is less able to navigate their way through society successfully than another child’s family. My passion for public education is based on precisely the fact that a civilized and compassionate society takes that into account and does all that it can to close the generational divisions between our children.
For the last few decades, however, Australia has been doing precisely the opposite. If you doubt me, here are a few facts about the way we differentially fund our children’s education:
- Public schools teach two thirds of our kids but receive one third of Federal Govt education funding.
- Australia spends a smaller proportion of education funding on public education than almost every developed nation in the world. Only Chile and Belgium spend less.
- Public schools teach all the children with higher needs. 77% of low income, 86% of indigenous, 80% of disabled students, 72% of rural, 79% of kids from single parent families and 84% of kids from remote areas. Needless to say, these children are also the more expensive to educate.
- Taxpayer funding for public schools has been increasing at just over half the rate of taxpayer funding for private schools, despite the fact that they educate the kids that need the most public support.
- In 1996 there were 13 low income kids to every 10 high income kids in our public school playgrounds, by 2006 it was 16 low income to every 10 high income. No doubt it is now even worse.
In other words, if we continue on as we are we are well on the way to becoming the first democracy to turn our public education system into a welfare system of last resort for the children of the poor. Far from it being Marxist to believe that a child’s chances in life should not be dictated by the accident of their birth, I sometimes wonder if we can continue to be a democracy if we use public funds to entrench privilege and underprivilege through our education system? And even if you don’t care much about the injustice of birth dictating educational opportunity, the consequences for Australia as a nation in the long term if we differentially educate all our talent will eventually affect us all.
Some are calling the Gonski Review a once in a generation opportunity to change our radical, wasteful and deeply unfair educational funding so that we can redirect the most money to the kids and schools that need it most.
As Chris Bonnor and I wrote in our book The Stupid Country; “When you give overly generous subsidies to schools that are already luxuriously resourced, are teaching children who come from higher socio-economic households, and who may already be achieving above the national average, it is hard to see a discernible return for that money. Results don’t improve, fees don’t go down, the socio-economic status of students does not broaden.
When you give much-needed money to schools that are under-resourced and struggling to deal with high concentrations of hard-to-teach students, you see an immediate return on your investment. Results improve, hope is created where once there was only despair, and the future benefits for the long-term health of the society as a whole are incalculable.”
Please support fairer funding for our public schools and click here.
Jane Caro is a novelist, Just a Girl author of The Stupid Country and The F Word, writer, feminist, atheist, Gruen Chick, speaker, media tart, wife, mother and stirrer. You can follow her on Twitter here.
Do you think public schools get a fair deal? How would you like to see school funding changed?







Comments
438 Comments so far
When you list the value of federal government funding for private/public without also referencing the state equivalent funding (much higher for public schools) you’re being intellectually dishonest, buck up.
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I went to a public high school for the first two years and then my parents decided to send me to a private. I hated it! Many of the girls in my class were stuck up and it was obvious the teachers had their favorites. I was also bullied for being bigger as I was 6 ft 2 and overweight. A few times I had my bag sticky taped to the bag racks and because I was shy with low self esteem I never stood up to the bullies. The bully happened to be the daughter of the schools chaplain. Nothing was done, no real punishment so once I graduated I never looked back. My grades suffered because of it and I attempted suicide so msny times until I gave birth to my son.
My son is now 6 and I send him to a public school simply because he is developmentally delayed and I have found his teacher to be excellent. Picked up on his learning disabilities and informed me as to what she was going to do to help him. I’m happy knowing that he’s in capable hands.
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Public schools meets the needs of every student, provides opportunities for all and develops pupil’s futures.
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One of the things I love about where I live (Switzerland) is that parents just send their kids to public schools, no discussion needed, no matter what their background.
Sending your kid to a private school here is tantamount to saying that your child can’t cope with the curriculum in the public system.
Teachers are (relatively) well paid here and are respected for the work that they do. The system isn’t perfect, but it works well for the majority, which is what I value most about public education.
I miss Australia a lot, but I am happy not to have to deal with the public/private education debate that seems to cause so much angst back home in Oz.
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Teachers here are ‘owned’ by the state they work in, they can be moved around with little choice in the matter. Principals have little to no power, they can’t even hire or fire their own staff! No wonder the state system here is so bad!
I have taught in public and private here and decided early on that I would have to pay for my kid’s education as the public schools were so bad. Badly resourced, seriously underfunded and a lot of them complete holes with 10 yr old furniture and not even a set of books per class.
I could not believe it, coming from the Uk where the school provides the kids with everything they need to learn. Including pencils, books, text books etc. Here I would turn up in a class with literally nothing in it!! Then the kids would arrive under resourced and I would end up buying spare books, pens etc so I could function as a teacher!
The public system here in QLD is terrible, they need a wake up call. I am forced to pay $11,000 a year for my kids schooling because the state schools are so bad. If the funding changes and the State schools improve then I could move my kids back to Public, hang on that will cost the Government more money then. Maybe that is why the funding is as it is!!
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As a teacher with a belief in the transformative power of education, I believe that scarce government funding needs to be targeted very carefully to address disadvantage in our society. It makes no sense to pour money into schools that are already well resourced be they public or private. Taxpayers should be asking why public schools in leafy suburbs are better resourced than public schools in low socio-economic areas and why some private schools struggle while elite private schools groan with the weight of government largesse. A new funding model should address not just the stark funding imbalances between public and private schools but the less publicised anomalies that exist within each sector. The bottom line is that poor students deserve better from our education system given that for them education represents the only opportunity that they will most likely ever have to change their circumstances.
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My husband went to Shore in Sydney and i went to public school.Our daughter has been to both.I think on a general level it depends which area you live in that also determines the quality of education at the particular school.More help is needed for the schools that are showing very poor academic standards, that doesn’t mean all public schools in general.For example a lot of public schools on the North Shore of Sydney are very good schools compared to that of other disadvantaged ares.The other thing is that public or private we all turn out the same, sorry to disappoint those paying thousands of dollars in fees.
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We do not turn out the same! In the early 90′s I worked in a disadvantaged school and it was funded as such; 2 sports halls, a dance studio with a sprung floor etc, etc; the most well resourced school I had ever worked at. Our clientele came with all the attitudes of their low income, uneducated parents. Why should I, you’re a loser and the state owes me. Funding schools in these areas does not necessarily result in educational success.
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Totally disagree, we do not turn out the same, schooling and your peers has a huge influence on how you turn out. Getting in with the wrong crowd or going to a weak school can be terrible for your final results.
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Yet, against all the dire warnings, including many a finger-wag about “sacrificing my child for my principles”, we sent our daughters to a nearby comprehensive, co-ed (no uniform – EEEEK! They’ll all be on drugs!!!!) public high school. It was a lovely school in a very well-heeled area, but no-one I knew would touch it with a 10 foot barge pole. (interestingly, it has a waiting list now.)
When my eldest went to Sydney Uni, she met up with lots of her old primary school mates who’d gone to expensive private schools. She returned from one Uni function and said the following;
“It’s funny, they go to the same uni as me, they’re getting the same marks as me, they wear the same clothes as me, they do the same things that I do. So what did their parents get for all that money?”
Indeed.
If you are considering a public school, check it out for yourself. Talk to parents who send their kids there. Talk to the teachers who work there. Ask kids who attend open-ended questions. But take the fear-mongering of parents who have rejected the school with a major pinch of salt. They may be right, and if they are you’ll find that out by talking to others, or they may be simply justifying their own decisions.
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I can remember thinking much the same thing as your daughter Jane, even though I went to a private school.
My boyfriend at uni and his sister went to two of Sydney’s most expensive private schools. Their parents must have spent well over six figures to fund 12 years’ of schooling for each of them. He was unemployed for years after university before settling on a trade that needed no higher education. She faffed around for years after uni and now works as a massage therapist. Neither one of them needed a ‘better’ school to achieve those results.
A lot of the people I went to uni with who did extremely well came from a state-school background. It’s a generalization I know, but they seemed to need less hand-holding and parental guilt-tripping to get their work done.
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Jane needs to put a giant asterix on her article as she is referring to Federal Government spending and not State Government spending, and as public schools are predominantly a state domain this is where the bulk of their funding comes from.
When government considers the spread of their funding they take into consideration what it would cost the government to educate (per head) the students currently educated in private schools then they consider how much it would cost them to educate the same students (per head) if they were to return to the public system because private costs became prohibitive due to a withdrawal or watering down of government funding. Now, obviously this works on a sliding scale; those who are just managing to send their children to private schools wold return to public schools fairly quickly as fees changed however there would be others who would be able to meet rising costs. Thus, it is in the interests of government to keep as many students in the private system as possible as it costs the government significantly less to educate that student through the private system than the public system, as their parents are bridging the gap.
Now, I was educated in the public system and have taught in both public and private schools; there are positives and negatives on both sides. The private school was no better resourced than the public school; the buildings were no better (old with gas heaters in both cases); teachers are stretched trying to meet the needs of students in both situations; wonderful and difficult parents/students in both cases. The only key difference I have found is a real sense of community and togetherness at the private school. The students really look out for one another and anyone who disrupts the learning of others is not encouraged by their peers, as they often are in the public system, rather they are brought into line by the school culture. This means that my valuable teaching time is rarely spent on behaviour management. My lunch times are spent running literacy support sessions or working with students who want my assistance instead of detention sessions. I rarely had time to eat lunch in the public system whilst at the private school I can sit and eat lunch whilst assisting a student instead of mediating fights, chasing errant students or supervising detentions.
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I went to public schools my entire life.
I then did a year of being an assistant teacher at the top girls preparatory school in the UK. It was the most private of private schools – we had the daughters of bank CEOs, actors, royals, politicians etc.
I always thought I had a fabulous education (which I did) but when I got to this school my jaw dropped.
The teachers were incredible, the discipline problems were usually ‘stop boasting about your Burberry trench coat and pay attention’ and the RESOURCES. OH MY GOD. That resource room was like walking into a classy english officeworks. (The waste was ridiculous. photocopied 300 sheets a little too darkly? THROW THEM OUT!)
The girls had so many opportunities to do different things, there was a real focus on each and every student (I should know, I did the pastoral care and academic filing…) and it was such a nurturing, loving environment.
It just makes me sad that not every little girl and boy have access to schools like these. These girls were so hard working, the school had high academic standards, but we also had girls with Down syndrome, autism etc, no-one was turned away (except if you were poor. No money, not their problem). It was such an amazing school, I wish everyone got the opportunity to go to a place like that!
My family was never wealthy enough to send me to the private school I wanted to go to – performing arts centre, oval upon oval etc. I adored my public school, got a fantastic ATAR, travelled the world, volunteered, and I’m now at uni, but I would have done well anywhere – I love to study and I loved school and everything about it. Some people need help though, and it’s not fair that people’s education and opportunities are limited by money.
more funding for public schools = equal opportunity. Education is a human right, our potential to achieve shouldn’t be limited by money! Australia has always seemed like an egalitarian society to me, we should start acting like it. By the time I start having children, I would like the deciding factor for their schooling to be ‘which one is closer’, because there would be no difference between the public and private…a girl can dream!
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More funding does not equal more opportunity. Who has perpetuated this myth? You only have to look at aboriginal communities in the Northern Territory!
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I firmly believe that if public schools are to garner support and have parents choose this avenue then they have to make the education curriculum, facilities and class sizes conducive to learning. I hear of public schools with composite classes? Grades 3 and 4 together, 5 and 6 together, school camps cancelled from year 6 onwards, large class sizes where children with ‘difficult behaviours’ distract teachers from focussing on children who want to learn and also need attention. I feel for the teachers who have to put up with abuse from parents and children in their work place, it is unacceptable and poor role modelling for the children who are there who witness this and come from good homes with strong values. We have chosen Private and had our son booked in from birth to start in ELC.This may sound snobby but if my child is in a school with like minded individuals where his learning is at an optimum due to a lack of ‘behavioural issues’ from other children, small class sizes,has brilliant teachers who email each day re his progress and build a community with the other families to facilitate all the childrens learning, has plentiful supplies and modern facilities, excursions and a strong curriculum, the right private school for your child is to me first choice, no debate needed.
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What’s wrong with composite classes? I was in a 3/4 composite and loved it. They picked 6 of us to go into it, we did our own maths and English, and did the same as the Year 4 kids for everything else. It was great!
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The problem with composite classes is that in a ‘typical’ one grade class, there can be a spread in ability of years – like, 6 or 7 years. So, add the bottom of the bottom of Year Three, with the top of the top of Year Four….and that spread in ability is HUGE. Difficult for just one person to properly plan & cater for. You might have perceived it as being great, but in reality, you may have had a more personalised learning situation had you been in a single-grade class.
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Like I said, there were only 6 of us from Year 3 in our composite, then the other 25 or whatever it was were Year 4. We were all academically ahead – we had all been going to the year above us for reading or maths or something for a couple of years, so I guess when we hit Year 3 and they needed to, they put us in the composite. I don’t think anyone suffered.
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I think your experience Kris is how composite classes should be. My sister was put in a similar class as you because she was brighter and needed to learn at a higher level or it was not challenging enough for her.
We looked at a school for my 3 last year and unfortunately the composite classes were a reason why we chose elsewhere.
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As a teacher (of both straight and multi-age classes or composite classes, as you call them) I’ve often found a large spread of abilities in a straight class just as much as if there was a combination of, for example, Year 3 and 4 students.
Good teaching is differentiating the curriculum to suit needs of all students ie a personalised learning experience. It is difficult, but it should be a natural part of any classroom. A teacher who teaches exactly the same content to and has the same expectations of all students (whether a straight class or multi-age class) would rarely be meeting the needs of their students.
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I have taught in both public and private although my kids went to public primary and private for secondary. The public primary school was and is brilliant in every respect.My friends’ experiences of their kids who attended the public system were that they floundered and got”lost” in the public high school.I know how well cared for and how closely we monitor students at the private school I teach at.I would prefer if government schools were of a higher standard because I believe public education should be top notch but it is pathetically woeful.Parents send their kids to private to give them the best opportunities in life.- that’s why I did and both my kids are at uni and have amazing friends.
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I agree. Even though I was lucky enough to attend a selective public high school with a fabulous academic reputation, our faciliites were dreadful and there was zero school spirit. And while some of our teachers were dedicated and lovely, most of them were clearly disinterested or a series of casuals who let us do whatever we wanted. In sending my own children to private schools I really hope they have teachers who want to be there and who love their jobs and foster a school spirit that makes the staff and students feel proud to be there.
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I’m on my fourth uni qualification and have amazing friends and I was publicly educated for high school – these qualities aren’t the domain of private schools.
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I teach in a Catholic school – attended Catholic schools myself so am not in a position to compare the two. What I can’t fathom though is the fact that Principals in NSW public schools do not have the ability to hire their own staff!!
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Totally agree. I’ve come from Victoria, where principals do have the ability to hire their staff (with assistance of a merit & equity panel) and in my opinion, the school are WAY better staffed than NSW where it’s more of a case of “hey, you’re at the top of the list, come teach with us!”
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They don’t in Qld either. If they have a bad teacher they are stuck with them. They are just caretakers of the school really which is a terrible waste.
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This is my 2 cents…..
Why not charge more for public school attendance, a reasonable amount like $100 a month, that’s $1200 a year which from my calculations at the schools we looked at is more than double the annual fee.
BUT…… Obviously there’s are going to be families that will most definitely struggle with the extra fee’s (especially larger families) why not subsidise the payments with a tax refund like childcare is???
50% sounds reasonable and would bring the payments back to what is typical for a public school, as mentioned from the ones we looked at, I don’t know what the average public school fees are.
It can be means tested like the ccb is and give every public school more financial resources.
The schools that cater for higher needs students need more funding, it should not be a issue. I have a friend with an autistic daughter and finding a school that catered to her daughters needs, or really allowed a private aide to be included in the class, was a stressful time for her. The annual cost for the aide is also a huge financial burden for the family and prevented them form even considering a private school.
We chose a private school for my kids and no the fees are not easy to cover. We chose to forgo a bigger and newer car and rent instead of buying so afford the fee’s but this was our choice. One some friends and family members don’t really understand but one we are happy with.
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We have plenty of kids whose families flatly refuse to pay fees of $170 per term for high school as well as families on payment plans to pay these fees off. I can’t imagine what admin’s job would be like trying to get any more out of some of them!!!
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Are the families who flatly refuse to pay the same ones who complain about the resources and have no interest in their childs education? The ones who believe in education and want better for their kids will find a way to contribute, even if its only a little bit. I find it funny when you hear people complaining they cant pay their kids public school contribution yet they can afford iphones, ipads, gym memberships, new tattoos and cigarettes and alcohol.
Of course there will be those who genuinely cant pay and thats fine, but there is a bit of a mentality that the world owes some people and they dont have to take financial or personal responsibility for their childrens education. You know, like read to them, help them with homework and feed them breakfast before school…
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Okay, I have read all the previous posts and there are merits to both sides of the argument.
My next comment is not meant to just be provocative, it is an observation based on my experience with state and private schools.
I have long thought that private schools often manage their funds more efficiently. Whether this is due to a higher level of ” accountability” due to parents expectations, or perhaps the mentality that they are running a business and therefore waste and inefficiency is not acceptable.
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I totally agree with you. We visited quite a few schools when we were looking for somewhere for our children to go. For me the calibre of the staff were a deal breaker.
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Having taught in both sectors, I can say that what I have witnessed has sometimes been the opposite of this.
For example, when my “classroom budget” for the year was $250 (in a QLD public school) – I watched EVERY CENT. On a larger scale, the leadership of the school also had to account for every single dollar and plan meticulously for how it was spent…because when it was gone, there was no more.
In contrast to this, now that my annual classroom budget exceeds $15 000, I have the option to spend in ways that I am not always held accountable to. If I spend all of that, I can dip into the budget of other departments, no problem. The amount of WASTE that happens in this particular school (and I am only speaking of this one personal experience, not of private schools in general) – is unspeakable.
When I taught in the public sector, I had a ‘pin’ code for the printer and photocopier, so that I had to make sure that I REALLY wanted to print something before I did. Here…..there is no limit to ANY consumable item – if we ever run out/lose/have something taken…no problem, just buy more/another one. If my school added up everything it spent on waste and donated it to the nearest public school, then both schools would still have a sizeable bank balance. It’s appalling.
In saying that, I am sure there are poorly managed funds in both sectors. Also that there are private schools that manage their funds meticulously. Just saying…….perceptions can be deceiving.
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Its really sorry to hear of the waste mentioned above. The school my kids attend to has any left over books, stationary, anything really donated to the Fred hollows foundation at the end of the year. We all sign a form to consent (as some families might want the items returned?) and then are sent information on the school that benefited from our donation. Last year our donated items were sent to an indigenous school in the northern territory. The school also has affiliations with another charity that I can’t remember the name of, humanitarian something. The children are informed of how they are helping other children in impoverished communities.
The school also has its own vegetable and herb garden and 4 school chickens. The students care for the garden and chickens and sell the vegetables, herbs and eggs before school. All proceeds go back into the garden and the entire operation has been fully funded and sustained by the children.
Yes all schools are different but these are some of the reasons why we chose this particular school.
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public schools are unable to manage their funds efficiently, as there is policy, upon policy, upon policy in how public schools are able to use their funding. The BER grants are a perfect example, the public school buildings had to fit into a cookie-cutter mode of building selection according to the number of students in the school, so much so that the local public school ended up with a hall that could only fit HALF their students at one time! These funds were also eaten up by layer upon layer of goverment employed subcontractors, who subcontracted more planners, who subcontracted yet again, so by the time the funds came down to pay for what the schools actually got, it was mostly eaten up in administration. Private schools, however, were allowed to manage their own grants, could hire their own contractors, were allowed to utilise their own money in kind, and so therefore got a much better product at the end. so it ‘appears’ that private schools can manage their funds better, but i suspect it is more because they have the freedom to manage the funds they get, rather than inefficient funds management.
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I said something similar earlier, and was totally shot down for it. I’m glad I’m not the only one that can see this side of it.
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Sorry jude, I didn’t manage to read all the comments! Not at all, I see it loud and clear! Sometimes I wonder if it’s a case of those arguing loudest convincing themselves of their choices rather than trying to convince us!
I know where I stand, i see how passionate my public high school teacher husband is about his work, I see how proud he is when his kids succeed, I see how disappointed he is when they fail, and I know that the grand proportion of public schools are doing the best they can with what they have, and if the funding model was agjusted as the report suggests, imagine what passionate public schools could do then!
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Wow, big topic! I have taught in private schools and public schools, my parents and my brother have all taught in public schools and my daughter started at a public school this year. Having said that, when she goes to high school she will go to a private school. NOT for the facilities or because they have ‘better’ teachers, but because they actively promote the overtly Christian values that I want my child to be surrounded by. I am NOT saying that a public school wouldn’t have these values (as always it depends on the individual school) but they would not be overtly Christian and that is important to ME. However, I would not send her to just any private school either, there is one particular one that she will go to.
Having said that, I do think there needs to be MUCH more funding going into public schooling, most especially in disadvantaged areas. And this funding needs to be not only for facilities but for training teachers and parents, and helping them to make the most of the opportunities they have. With this comes more recognition for teachers who are doing an incredible job under very difficult circumstances. I am willing to pay for my children to go to the school of my choice. In our case it is only because I will get a clergy discount that we can afford to think about this. But it is my CHOICE to send her to a private school and I am willing to pay for it. I would rather have the money go where it’s needed than to heavily subsidize my values, iykwim.
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My kids go to a public school because I insisted. My husbands family are scandalised. But I see a school as part of the community and there neighbours and friends all go there. Why shove your kids on a bus when a great public school is just over the road.
I think it is good for children who are very middle class to mix with all sorts of people.
My sister and I was the poor kids in a public school I. A wealthy farming community. We had alot of friends from all sorts of back grounds and I think that makes a rounded person. I don’t want little snobs, I want my kids to have friends from rough families and everyday families and rich families as I really think it show no matter where you come from you are equal and deserve the same start in life
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this is one of my big reasons too
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I think that’s perfectly valid – we all have to get along with people from all walks of life. As a teacher though, I offer you a word of warning – be sure your child has the guidance at home (and it sounds like he/she does) to choose friends wisely. It only takes one obnoxious cretin to befriend an lovely child and drag down their whole education.
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There are cretins at private schools too, though.
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Federal governments give public money to private schools because the parents of the children at those schools are tax payers and voters.
Many people who work hard, pay a lot of tax and choose private schools for their kids believe that it is fair that some of those tax dollars should be directed towards the school that they choose.
It may not be right, but it’s reality.
You can argue that their kids will become useful citizens anyway and it’s a waste of public money that could be saving other kids from a life of welfare dependency. They can argue that it’s unfair for their tax dollars to be spent educating the offspring of drug dealers and welfare cheats without a cent towards their own child’s education.
There will never be a funding model which is universally considered to be fair. There will never be an education system which can guarantee that every child leaves school as a well educated, socially adjusted and employable person. Governments have to make trade offs and they know that personal interest is a powerful motivator.
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Exactly.
It is also blatantly dishonest of Jane Caro to emphasise the amount of Federal funding and deliberately not say anything about where the State Government funding goes. Surely the issue is the the total amount of tax payer funds spent on schools. But of course it would be inconvenient to reveal the fact that private school students receive about half the government (fed and state combined) funding received by state school students. If you take that away you’d better be prepared for an increase in the number of state school students and therefore an increase in the taxpayer funding.
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Absolutely! Why is state funding never mentioned in these public school tirades?!? I would LOVE to send my child to the local public high school. Unfortunately the public brawls that go on, with kids arrested, sort of put me off. I’d also really LOVE to not work as much as I do to pay for my child’s education. To those that say that private schools breed “little snobs” – thanks Amandarose – you might like to get your facts straight before mouthing off.
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The other reason may be, they give money to private schools because it would cost them a lot more if that child went to a Public school.
If just a low % changed from private to public next term the schools could not cope. They would need bigger buildings, more land, more maintenance costs, more teachers, everything would need upsizing, which the government would have to pay for. Paying a small amount to private schools each year is cheaper for them.
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I knew I’d read about the Gonski Review on here at some point!
Having taught in public education and also in private, I feel there are many reasons why public school deserve more equitable funding……but also fail to see how merely increasing funding will make for fairer education.
It is common knowledge in the profession that the single biggest influence on whether the child has a quality education is NOT the resources available to them, is NOT whether they have a big playing field, is NOT how many iPads they have in the classroom, but the QUALITY of the teacher. The biggest expense schools bear is their staffing costs. So I agree with a previous statement that Australia needs to look at ways to make the profession more appealing for school-leavers, in order to attract passionate, quality people to it.
If we look to countries where academic results are consistently extremely high, such as Finland and other Nordic areas, they hold teaching in the highest regard, the marks needed to enter a teaching degree are high, and teaching jobs are very well paid. Here, people often comment in a derogatory way on my job – “you just babysit don’t you?” – “What, Year Two , you guys just play all day, right?” – “You only have ten weeks until your next holiday so what are you complaining about?” and so on. The role of a teacher is under-valued somewhat and the pay certainly does not reflect the demand on the individual. One of my friends commented to me recently that I could earn “an extra 60 thousand if I went to the mines to sort ball-bearings” – what a sad state of affairs.
The WORST thing that has happened to education recently is the ridiculous media sensationalisation of the NAPLAN results. What a limited view of our children’s abilities. And the suggestion that teachers should be paid a BONUS when their children “perform” well on these tests is just outrageous. Entering the 21st century, children need to learn the skills of creativity, patience, empathy, divergent thinking, problem solving, adaptability and resilience….NOT the skills that are tested on these once-a-year, overrated pencil and paper ‘tests’. Why are we rating schools publicly on such a small part of what they provide overall is absolutely beyond me, and only serves to further degrade education in general. I feel embarrassed that Julia Gillard thinks this is a good idea when it has failed all over the world to result in higher achievement.
Teachers in New South Wales are now being asked to provide extensive documentation that proves that they are capable at their jobs, in order to make the transition into the next pay band. I see this as a more effective tool to increase teacher quality than just handing schools more money. Professional Development for staff should be the highest priority, not a new field, or a new hall.
Sadly, Australia is so far behind the rest of the world in so many facets of education it is hard to see when we might ‘catch up’ at this point, no matter how much money is thrown at public or private schools. There are so many fundamental problems with the way children are being taught.
If you’re interested in such things, have a read of “What’s the Point of School?” by Guy Claxton….or google Ken Livingstone “Schools Kill Creativity” for some food for thought.
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I am sick and tired of this BS that private schools are funded than public schools the argument is deceptive, per head funding by all levels of Government is far less per head for private schools then public schools and there can be no argument about this fact.
Each schools funding from the government (other than catholic schools) is adjusted down based on the income level of the school populations family income, so the rich receive less funding except in catholic schools where they are funded on a fixed formula which I think is totally wrong.
My wife and I were both educated in public schools and have worked hard to get where we have today, we have chosen to send our youngest daughter to private school because of the decline in discipline in the public school system, not because we are wealthy (we struggle to meet the cost), why should we have this taken away from us because some manipulated argument about funding.
Please report the facts accurately not bend them for the sake of a good story.
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But D, don’t you agree that if public schools were what they should be, it would benefit everyone? You wouldn’t be ‘forced’ to send your daughter to a private school because of the ‘decline’ in standards? It’s a bit of a self fulfilling thing isn’t it – the more average people bale out of state schools, the more they struggle and even more people bale out. At what point does the tide turn back?
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Honestly? I’ll support it when it’s not my childs education & future at risk. All changes take time…and I’m not prepared to gamble on my child’s education.
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Kate I may not have made my point very clear, the problems I have with public school education are not about funding and resources but about, philosophy and the lack of control over student behaviour. This will only ever change with a change in who controls public education and that is not going to happen in a hurry if ever. Public education is being driver by the bleeding heart social welfare/psychology lobby who have know idea of the real world.
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Interesting they chose a businessman to conduct this review. Not a teacher, lawyer, judge or politician. Gonski’s resume suggests he has plenty of ‘real world’ experience.
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and you better hope your circumstances don’t change or heaven forbid your kid gets expelled, then you will have no choice but to move the kid to the under funded system you don’t want to invest in. I can’t believe people cannot see the down side for our whole society to under invest in public education and to actively increase the gap between those born into financial & emotional security and those not. Private should mean private and public should get overwhelming more tax funds – it is available to all no question. Perhaps people could claim private school fees on their tax?
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All the commenters who are saying, ‘I send my kids to a private school even though I struggle to do it, because the local state schools are so appalling,’ should hope the Gonski Review recommends major redistributions. The goal is to make public education the gold standard, not the ‘last resort’ as Jane puts it.
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Thanks Kate. I have often wondered how under-funding public schools – and its not about dollar amounts, add state funding to Federal and it looks fairer to public schools, add parental fees to private school funding (who also receive state as well as Fed funding, btw, just a smaller proportion) and it looks unfair again – it is also about the fact that because pub schools have an exponentionally increasing number of the most expensive to teach kids (a disadvantaged kid in a remote location can cost $30,000 p.a to educate, a middle class kid in inner Sydney $6000) they need more support (which costs, people, like everything) to bring those kids up to standard.
How does it increase anyone’s choice, or save anyone money, or improve everyone’s educational opportunities to under-fund public schools for the increasingly difficult task they must shoulder – alone, it seems. And worse, then hand out scorn and abuse to them, their students and their teachers for doing so?
Makes my blood boil, to be honest.
Oh and if money is not the issue, why do private schools – particularly the wealthy ones – seem to require so much of it and why are so many parents making sacrifices (as they say) to pay extra fees? Why is money always needed to support the already wealthy but called a waste or unnecessary when it goes to help the poor? Even, to Australia’s shame, when we are talking about the children of the poor. Let them eat cake, indeed.
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“Makes my blood boil, to be honest.”
Well Jane, how abot being completely honest and stop placing disproportionate emphasis on Federal funding and start talking about the total government funding per capita in the state and private systems? What is the average government funding per student in each sector? I don’t have an issue with increasing the government spending on education. I only have an issue with your distortions and politics of envy.
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So agree George. Jane dislikes private (especially religious based) schools and would want them gone. But long ago the tables were turned and the religious schools catered for the poor. Would she have been so outspoken then?
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Gee, that’s a long bow to draw Furious Georgina. I have been a friend and colleague of Jane’s for many years and although she is vehement in her opposition to religion being taught in public schools (she’s not alone there) I’ve never heard her say a word against the right of religious schools to exist. My kids go to Catholic schools and Jane has always know this. Her argument is about funding, not faith.
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We need to stop talking about private schools vs public, and think about students and families getting funding for their education. Every child has the right to some funding for their learning, (even those who attend the wealthy private schools) just as everyone has the right to some funding for health care. No one has suggested that people who live in Mosman have no right to any Medicare funding, although many of them are wealthy enough not to need it. It’s a parallel argument.
Ben Jensen of the Grattan Institute suggests the funding debate is a distraction. We need to make real progress in this debate, which is about teacher quality and what happens in the classroom. It’s about attitudes to learning.
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Certainly a controversial post. I’ve been debating my reply for quite a while because I’m sure it won’t make me popular, but here goes!
I fail to understand why a private entity (private school) should be government funded, at the expense of a public entity (public school), especially since most of these private schools are faith-based.
Private schools have many more financial advantages over public schools.
1. They are registered charities, therefore they are tax exempt.
2. They are allowed to spend their recurrent government funding in any way they like. Public schools cannot spend their funding on any capitol works.
3. When handing out BER funds, public schools were told what they could do with the money and had to use government-appointed building firms. These firms were charging at least double the going rate for these works. Private schools got to choose, once again, how and where they spent their money.
4. Private schools are able to access interest-free loans from the government for school works. Public schools do not have this option. They usually have to go cap in hand. It galls me to see elite private schools putting in their 10th rugby field when one of my sons’ public schools had to rent out their (single) oval just to enable the upkeep of it.
Public schools are obligated to provide a free and suitable education to all. Private schools certainly do not operate under this ethos. Private schools regularly weed out students who are “dragging the school down”, be it behaviourally or scholastically. Where do those students end up? In public schools, of course.
And please, stop using the argument that if you decrease funding to private schools it will overwhelm the public system. If the public system was better supported by governments (and parents) the “need” to send your kid to a private school would lessen. Our public schools could once again flourish and parents would choose to use them.
Yes, discipline in schools is not what it used to be. Successive governments and civil liberty groups have taken that power away, not just from schools, but from parents as well. I agree that school shouldn’t be used just as a babysitter, and that teachers have to spend way too much time on “crowd control”, as someone called it. It does contribute to lower academic standards, and does need to be addressed. It is a whole society problem though, not just a school one.
To those who need to use special schools such as Kingsdene, I think funding should also be increased in that sector of education. If we can’t look after the most vulnerable members of our society, it doesn’t say much for the rest of us.
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Your arguements are wrong on so many facts that I cant even begin to address them all but particularly on the money given to the private schools for the BER, it most certainly was intended only for school halls and even though our small catholic school had just had a new hall built 2 years previously we had to build another one, no ifs or buts or deviations and when we wrote to the minister and said we dont need one please use the money on another school we were told in no uncertain terms to help the economy we had to build a new building. I really dont know where you get your facts from, can you please name your source??
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The BER was not only for school halls. Please read the information before telling me I’m wrong. Get the guidelines from here: http://www.deewr.gov.au/Schooling/BuildingTheEducationRevolution/Pages/furtherinformation.aspx
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Our BER was spent building sun shelters and upgrading the library which we were in desperate need of. No new school hall here!
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they’re actually so right on so many facts. Poppette I ‘m fairly sure Catholic schools had a different set of rules for that – my aunts catholic school had the same kind of problem.
‘we need a science lab’
‘you’re building a hall’
‘but…what….no..we nee-’
‘SCHOOL HALL!’
fun fact – Melbourne Grammar got an incredible library, while my school (Mac.Rob) got the front lawn redone…never mind the 1930s classrooms with no air-conditioning, the plaster falling off the walls, the tiny school hall that can’t fit half the school (four year levels, not even six!) or the complete lack of any school oval. the lawn is the most pressing issue here bahaha.
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I went to a ‘prestigious’ private school and my husband attended a very poor public school and everytime this debate is raised through the media we have this discussion. We both agree that it’s not about the money per say. I mean it’s not about how good a building is that makes the education different. Don’t get me wrong obviously facilities play a big part but I think we are missing a big point. The biggest difference in education between the two is how much a parent values the education the child is getting. Now before you jump down my throat what I mean is a parent who spends even the smallest amount on school fees has a vested interest in how their child is doing. For example you give someone a free car and as much as you might want to argue the opposite you’ll never value it as much as if you’d bought and paid for it yourself. That’s not to say that parents who send their kids to public schools don’t care I just mean parents who send their kids to private schools have high expectations for the fees they are paying, and both the school and the student have to answer for their performance, or lack there of. So knowing that your child will be going to school with kids whose parents are just as vested as you are means a more focused learning enviroment.
Now having said all that I agree public education deserves a lot more funding but not at the expense of the private students who already get less per student than the public kids. Just because a parent decides to spend money on their childs education doesn’t mean they should be penalised, these parents are paying high taxes as well and deserve equal rights to it’s spending. We need to stop building this conflict of public vs private it doesn’t help anyone and just makes both sides angry.
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I think sadly, in lower socio economic areas public schools are often seen by parents as free babysitting and teachers are seen as the enemy rather than providing the tools to help break the life cycle they are living.
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As a teacher, I agree. You’ve completely nailed it with this comment. A redistribution of fuinding will help, but public schools AND the community need a lot more than that.
Also, I live in a fairly affluent rural area. The two public schools pretty much get the kids whose parents either can’t afford one of the seven local private schools or who don’t care (the kind you mention). Of course, there are others who believe in public education, too, but the majority of kids have parents who fall into the first two camps I mentioned.
A shift in the way the community thinks would be awesome. Just like police and nurses, most teachers chose their profession because we like kids and teaching, not because we think it’s fun to be the enemy!
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As a teacher at a public school in a low socio-economic area, I whole heartedly agree with your statement.
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another great article jane.
i am public school all the way. i really hope that changes are made to funding to mean the schools in highest need get proportionately more finding.
public high schools tend to do better in my state in the year 12 results overall. imagine how well they would do if they were properly funded?
more posts from jane please MM
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if private schools receive equal funding to public schools, then they are not private schools. They are public schools that discriminate against poor people or people of a different faith. i would be happy to run that case (though I would rather not start with a religious school.)
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Achieving educational outcomes in all schools is multilayered like an onion. Funding is one of the top layers but if you peel the layers back there are a number of things underneath that are can change things for many different reasons. There are many studies that show that the biggest influences in students’ academic achievement are: attendance; income (relating to their access to resources at home such as the internet and books, not school resources); having multi cultural or Indigenous staff in schools, because children and families respond to having diversity amongst their role models; a strong leader/principal; and having the right instructional programs for the right kids.
School funding is not a big factor. In fact, the public sector benefits from funding in the private sector because without it, less children are able to access private education and then the government sector becomes even more over crowded. Also government schools can and do apply for or find themselves eligible for many different grants that private schools do not get so the figures in this article are skewed. This article is superficial and not a good overview of the education system as it is. The stats for “funding” do not include government led initiatives like the National Partnerships programs amongst others which add up to millions and millions of dollars. Schools in very remote Aboriginal communities all have interactive whiteboards and laptops and state of the art resources. They also get good teachers out there and have strong literacy and numeracy instructional programs both in the classroom and as remedial instruction outside the classroom setting. For these kids, the biggest problem is they usually have very poor attendance records, have next to no access to anything that promotes their education at home, and parents feel alienated because schools are often almost all staffed by “white” folk from the big smokes.
I strongly recommend looking up Chris Sarra and his work with the Stronger Smarter program he implemented in his time at Cherbourg State School in Qld, Noel Pearson’s “A Radical Hope” essay, and Kevin Whelldall’s work in developing literacy instruction for disadvantaged and at risk students. Poor educational outcomes in the most disadvantaged schools in Australia stem from more than money spent on the schools. Good outcomes come from building partnerships with the community and parents and encouraging attendance.
Across the board, in both public and private sectors, Australia is failing to attract teachers to the profession. The burn out rate is about 5 years. And this is hurting the education system more and more. The wage for a starting teacher is quite miserly for 4 years tertiary training and the level of stress and planning required in the job. It has become a political playground and everyone wants to add their two cents worth.But I for one think the magic bullet is attracting passionate teachers who are in it for the long haul and are really in it to make a difference to kids lives. Those that will be leaders and take a stand. A good principal and staff who respect him/her and work together as a team and build relationships with the families are the ones who achieve the best outcomes. Whether that is socially or academically… both are equally is important.
As a side note, as important as Naplan is, as a diagnostic tool to see what students and schools can’t do, they certainly provide only a very very limited view of what students CAN do. And Naplan results certainly can’t tell us if a school is good or not on their own.
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I agree with most of what you have written. But with regard to “attracting passionate teachers who are in it for the long haul”: I’m sure that almost all teachers start teaching planning to be in it for the long haul. I doubt many would do a four year degree, planning to burn out in 5 years. They start off passionate and idealistic, and the nature of the job burns them out. Also, I’m surprised to hear that “across the board…Australia is failing to attract teachers to the profession”. In the Courier-Mail a couple of days ago (Qld paper), it said for the second year in a row (maybe third) only 1 in 10 graduating teachers got a full-time job in the public sector.
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Sorry I was starting to fall asleep when I wrote this haha.
I believe the Courier Mail is just looking to sensationalise the facts personally. Graduate teachers have always often had to do relief and short term contract work before they get permanent positions. It is just the way the system works – permanent jobs are awarded on merit. But outside of permanent work, in most places there is more teaching work than teachers. This may not be so in Brisbane, but it certainly is in regional qld. Of all my uni colleagues who graduated mid year last year, nearly all of them did relief and small contract work in the second half of they year and by the beginning of this year had permanent positions. It took a few months, but they earned positions fairly quickly in the scheme of things. Many of those who graduated at the end of last year will probably have to do relief and short contracts before they get a permanent position. There are certain schools (as there always are) where it is much harder to get permanent work because that is where lots of teachers want to go.
In regional qld, due to the changes to childcare policy (qualified teachers in every centre), there is a high demand for early childhood teachers, including lots of prep teachers in schools. There is also a demand for special needs teachers.
In terms of attracting passionate teachers who are in it for the long haul, I just meant that the burn out rate of 5 years is concerning because it never used to be like that, and we have to ask why teachers are burning out and fix that first. But that burn out rate of 5 years in itself tells us that is always going to be demand for teachers though. There are also a LOT of older teachers around that will retire in the next 10 years that will free lots of jobs. I think teaching is just a profession where one year there’ll be less jobs to go round than others, and the next there might be more jobs than teachers. But people will have to move to where work is, that’s life. Those people in capital cities that are having trouble finding work should go remote for a 2 year contract, and come home with enough points to get work wherever they want. They just have to think outside the square.
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And Riley, just for the record…. the above posts from ‘Anonymous’ are actually posts from a number of different repondents. I posted the initial comment to which you responded and I’m the one that thanked you for your “tip”. Just thought I’d clear that up. Having said that, I’m grateful for all the other ‘Anonymous’ posters who support teachers (regardless of whether they are public or private). Shame you see me as incompetent and the enemy. I might just be the teacher of your child. Or a friend’s child. Or your brother’s child. You get my drift.
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I appuald the article by Jane. The statistics reflect the OECD funding disgrace of education of all students in Australia but focus on the decades of inequities in the public vs private debate. Yes, the quality of teachers counts….truth is there is quality teachers in all systems, but, without a doubt better teachers in the Govt system. “Here here” to a quality and fair education system, and “thank you” to the people fighting the fight for a quality public education. After all, a quality public education system is what will drive a quality nation
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but, without a doubt better teachers in the Govt system.
I’m not sure at all how you can make that blanket statement. I would think that there would be better teachers in the private system because
(a) private schools pay their teachers more money so they can attract better teachers.
(b) Incompetent teachers can be fired from the private sytem, it can be very hard to fire a teacher from a government school.
(c) teachers in private schools can spend more time teaching and not ‘crowd control’ because unrulely students in private schools can be expelled.
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Actually, at least in Qld, most Catholic schools pay teachers less than the state schools. There are very good teachers in both systems. In private schools, if say, 30 people have applied for the job, then you can probably assume the school was able to pick a very good teacher. On the other hand, there are many very good teachers who passionately believe in state schools, and choose to stay there for that reason. It dissappoints me so much when the debate becomes “we need better teachers” instead of looking at all the complicated difficulties in education. (I know you didn’t say that, though.)
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“without a doubt better teachers in the public system”
What causes you to make this assumption? I have taught in both systems and have seen quality teachers in both public and private schools.
I am interested to know what makes you think this? (am not sure if you’re a teacher or not)
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Very selective use of stats there Jane. How about we just go back in time, get all of that money back that was spent of school halls (of which many, many cost twice or three times the retail amount) and give it to public schools to spend as they see fit. I imagine that the principals would choose to spend it on teachers, resources and stationery which is exactly what we want them to do.
The solution to this problem doesn’t lie in taking money away from private schools and giving it to private schools, it’s in using what is available in a more effective way and also increasing the funding to education overall.
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Unsuprisingly this post has sparked a comment war. Education is something everyone has an experience with and so often we get bogged down in this argument about whether public or private education is better, more deserving, how wealthy/poor the parents are etc.
Instead let’s concentrate on what’s really important: the educational outcomes for all children and what changes will actually improve them. There is a very interesting article in The Age today with research showing that extra funding does not guarantee improved student outcomes. You can read the article here: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/no-link-between-school-cash-and-marks-study-20120216-1tbuz.html
Yes, funding is really important in supporting educational reforms, but it’s not the only thing we need to do. I certainly think public education needs more funding, but I don’t agree that it should be at the expense of private education who (in contrast to your incomplete statistics Jane) actually get less funding per student in total from the state and federal government.
If we’re looking at adjusting the way education is funded, we should make damn sure that funding is spent in the right way.
Why don’t we have a more productive discussion about ideas and initiatives that would have an impact on students and their educational outcomes?
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You know what I get from reading all these comments? Inconsistency.
Students’ experiences of both private and public schooling are wildly varied. I’m not sure I can take any general statements at face value.
Personally, the best and most effective year of my schooling was the year I spent at a start-up school in a third-world country where we didn’t even have a school building for the first term. I was 11 and my class included students up to the age of 17. We had desks leant up against a rudimentary church wall.
We had a volleyball net and a seesaw for our playground equipment.
But my teacher was skilled and passionate, and the books from which we worked were excellent. The teacher was responsible for maximising her skills in the classroom; my parents were responsible for buying those wonderful books and paying a minimal fee.
That one year had profound results for my learning skills. I was a successful high school student and am now a Master’s graduate and professional writer.
Investment from the government or other benefactors doesn’t necessarily effect success. It’s about teachers and parents.
I think the change needs to stem primarily from our universities and social services. Most students (not all, of course) enjoy facilities today that past generations have gone without.
It’s not all about buildings and basketballs. And it’s not entirely dependent on dollar value but social values.
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this is so true. I love this comment!
A proper, quality education doesn’t require oodles of money. It requires passionate, honest, curious teachers who love to learn & teach, and parents who support their children’s education.
We can chuck all the money we want at these disadvantaged schools. (i’ve worked in them) but it’s the parents and teachers themselves who can make the difference. End of.
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Schooling, schools and education….let’s next talk abortion!
I went to private schools my entire “schooling career”, with the exception of year 12.
They. Are. Fucked. Up.
I begged for out more than once, which was denied because apparently attending a non-religious school was completely out of the question, coming from a very religous background.
My year 12 was done at an “adults college” which in my parents language meant “it’s ok it’s neither private or public”
Also, I don’t believe I would have done well in a public school past the age of, oh, 9. Private schools are a very, very sheltered environment. The real world since leaving school has been a huge surprise.
I am incredably thankful that I was able to get an education at all. But that doesn’t mean private schools aren’t an issue.
One school I was at was located right next to a public high school in a bad area. Taught to look down at them? Yes, yes we were.
More than once when recieving a new application package (I went to 4 private schools total), the package would include a “Priority admission” list. Kids with religious parents and grandparents (all proven by pastoral refernces, of course) were admitted first. Kids without religious parents and grandparents were at the bottom of the list.
Private schools are an incredably coercive environment. Altar calls to give your heart to the lord at most assemblys, etc.
I am whole-heartedly opposed to private schooling.
I am sure that all the things I spoke of above have been mentioned, but quite frankly sometimes I need to vent.
And I learnt more academically and in life at my one year in the public system then all my private years combined.
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Your experiences seem to be from Catholic/Religious private schools. There are some excellent religious ones and well as some excellent secular private schools, in all states. As well as some as you describe.
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I never attended Catholic schools. The schools I went to were Christian Baptist and Lutheran. The one I describe as locate next to a poor public school was considered one of the best private schools in North Adelaide. I’m sure there are some less crazy private schools out there, but the fundementals don’t change.
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Surely, all reasonable Australians would agree that a child’s educational opportunities should not be limited by their parent’s ability to pay? After all, no child is disadvantaged through any of their own doing. They have simply been unlucky in the lottery of birth and been born into a family that is less able to navigate their way through society successfully than another child’s family.
I think that statement is hogwash. A child’s ability to succeed or not succeed at school hasn’t anything to do with whether they attend a private or public school system.
A lot of the students do very well in the public system. This is because it’s the home and the parents attitude to school and studying that determines whether or not kids will succeed.
You can chuck all the money in the world at the public school system and it won’t make any difference, what you need to do is change the attitudes of the kid’s parents.
I sent my kids to a public primary school and I live in a middle class area, but there were still parents at my kid’s school who would not buy any of the stationary on the book list, they would send their kids off to school without so much as a lead pencil because education is supposed to be free in this country.
There were parents who refused to listen to their kids reading at night because it was the teachers job to teach their kid to read and they didn’t see why they should do the teachers work for them. And so on and so on…
I was glad that I put my children into a private highschool where they were surrounded by other kids who parents valued education and supported what the school was trying to achieve with the students.
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Ahhhh… I think you actually just supported her point?
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yes, you kind of just killed your own argument Catgirl the moment you moved your children to private education to give them a better educational outcome.
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Actually I think the author was arguing that parents who pay a lot of money for education often have a different set of social values and ideas about education. Education is important to them and that is why they pay for it. More funding in government schools won’t change the (lack of) social capital that disadvantaged children bring to the classroom.
However not all private schools are good at building relationships with parents/families and developing a sense of community. And some do a very good job of it. Schools need good leaders to take a strong stance about they expect for the school for all the right reasons and it will flow down (often).
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yes, you kind of just killed your own argument Catgirl the moment you moved your children to private education to give them a better educational outcome.
I didn’t move them so that they would get a better educational outcome because my kids would have succeeded in a Government school…due to their home environment.
I moved them so they would be surrounded by like minded kids.
I put my children into a private highschool where they were surrounded by other kids who parents valued education
I know many kids who have gone through the government system and have done very well…those kids will continue to achieve whether or not more money is thrown at the system. The rest of the kids…the kids who don’t get support from their home environment will not succeed regardles of the amount of money thrown into the public system.
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My kids attend a public school – any child who socialises with (or is surrounded by) my child can be guaranteed that I value education. I think it is incredibly “classist” to make a statement that effectively means private school parents value education more than public school parents.
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Having grown up in south-western Sydney attending public schools that were consistently under-resourced, I think it’s high time that we examine not just how much money is going to public and private schools, but who is in control of it and what it is used for.
If funding models are changed but we end up in another BER-style situation – where work that was badly needed was indeed done but for exorbitant prices charged by certain contractors because of mismanagement by state governments in particular – then getting the full benefit from any changes is not going to be possible. Accountability and responsibility needs to be better built into any changes to funding systems.
Also, just want to throw in – I adjudicate debates and public speaking competitions in south-western Sydney at the moment, and I’ve been to some really rough schools but met some really amazing kids who are polite, kind, hard-working and dream big. I’ve also worked in the private system doing the same things, and it’s the only time I’ve had to tell students to stop talking over the top of me and behaving rudely when I’m trying to teach them about public speaking. I think a lot of the generalisations about the kids who are in the two different systems can be true, but I also think we need to keep in mind that the rest of the village that raises the child has a lot to do with how they turn out too.
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The Marxist anecdote remind me of what US opponents of public healthcare do to demonise those who support it. They call them socialists.
No one in the US wants to stick their neck out too far in support of public services for fear they will be deemed a supporter of socialism.
Thankfully in Australia we are not yet in that boat. We can still largely agree that we need quality education that anyone can afford to access. So, instead of trying to protect our turf or feel riled at our tax dollars being redirected elsewhere maybe we can figure out to achieve that affordable quality education for everyone.
Oh, and Federal funding for wealthy schools is middle class welfare.
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Jane, I didn’t even read the whole post as I’ve just enjoyed a glass and a half of semillon. It’s Friday night and I’m a school teacher in the public system. But I do thank you for bringing education to the discussion wall.
Since this school term has begun I have had to use my free periods to photocopy entire novels because we do not have enough texts in the book room to go around. I know this is a breach of copyright. But really, what choice do I have? It’d take a couple of weeks to get a new delivery of books (IF we had the luxury of a budget to buy them with) and by then the poor sods without a book would be a whole novel behind the rest of the class!
Not that that’s a big a deal, I know. But my precious period off per day (which is allocated for planning and prep) is instead spent performing the duties that in any corporate company would be performed by a 17 year old office assistant. Despite the fact that I have mountains of planning, programming and marking to do, there I am turning each page (one at a time) and watching the Zerox flash, and then repeating the procedure for TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY PAGES.
And because we do all the “heavy lifting” in public schools (ie. because we we educate the kids with autism, asperger’s, hearing and vision impairment, numerous other random ailments, not o mention good ol’ fashioned dickheadedness that comes from being raised in completely dysfunctional households with parents who are drug users, criminals and largely absent) we spend OODLES of precious time following up behavioural issues, and completing other assessments. Our lunch hours are often taken up with detentions as we attempt to provide the kids with some kind of understanding of what it means to take responsibility for the consequences of one’s actions (see note above about absent parents).
I remain committed to public education. It needs people to believe in it and support it. I do my very best for the public system. BUT i have put my children into the private system because of the lack of funding and control ( including disciplinary powers) given to public schools.
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I have a spare crucifix that I can nail to if you like
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I’m just stoked that anyone read my comment and reponded! Thanks!
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You and me both! I work my guts out in the public system but send my kids to private schools.
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That sounds really tough and I feel for you, even though I work in a corporate company and we don’t have any 17 year olds to do those types of tasks anyway. I suppose funding problems aren’t unique to the education industry.
I thought I might point out is that in private schools it’s usually the parents not the school who purchase the textbooks.
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Amy, thanks for bringing me back down to earth. There I was thinking that we were hard done by but as you point out, there are numerous people out there doing menial tasks which do not make the most of one’s time.
How I wish parents of children in public schools WOULD take responsibility for their child’s texts. Parents in the private system who pay for their texts are probably better at making sure the texts are cared for. The reason I have to photocopy is because over the years there are so many students who use school texts but never bother to return them. I try to chase them up but kids are notoriously hopeless at taking responsibility for school books (especially as they probably resent having to read them in the first place… kids are kids). The next step is to ring the parents and ask for their assistance in returning the books. This is embarrassing for both parties. And again, a waste of my precious little free time that is programmed into my schedule for planning, programming, marking etc. Needless to say, most of this planning takes place at home. There goes the myth that teachers work from 9 til 3pm.
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Anonymous, I live in an affluent area and I know some parents whose kids go to our local public school who refuse to pay their school fees because they believe its their childs right to have a free education. Even thought they drive expensive cars and holiday overseas twice a year….and yet they still complain about the poor facilities at their kids school. You are fighting the freeby mentality
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And because we do all the “heavy lifting” in public schools (ie. because we we educate the kids with autism, asperger’s, hearing and vision impairment, numerous other random ailments, not o mention good ol’ fashioned dickheadedness that comes from being raised in completely dysfunctional households with parents who are drug users, criminals and largely absent) we spend OODLES of precious time following up behavioural issues, and completing other assessments
Any teacher in a public school deserves a medal and a hefty payrise. I have no idea how you continue to go to work under those circumstances
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OMG I cannot tell you how relieved I was at reaching the end of your post and to find that you didn’t cut and paste a section of my comment to criticise me, but to support me. Phew! I know we sound like whingers when we go on about this stuff but thankfully there are people out there who listen and are sympathetic to the real problems that exist for teachers ( both public and private).
A pay rise would be lovely but it’s not likely to happen. And, I guess, the only reason we continue to work under these circumstances is because there’s a lot of great kids out there who make us laugh. There’s never a dull day as a high school teacher. I also happen to LURVE my subject matter.
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I love your comment – as a teacher, I could have written it myself!
Unfortunately, I was too tired to comment on this post last night after a week of sub-teaching at a public school where I was called all manner of obnoxious names by students in year 7, 8,9, 10 and 11 for the week. Oh, and a student threw a chair out the window because (his worlds) “I didn’t take my f****ing medication today, you c*** fag***”.
For those playing along at home, the principal told me the consequences for this student would be to go on a red card (his teachers have to say if he was good/bad each lesson) and to be told to sit in a different seat in the classroom.
Oh, and a year 9 boy asked me to read his story, all about masturbation.
“Anon also”, do you have a spare crucifix for me, too?
To the original poster, keep fighting the good fight – there’s a small army of us marching here alongside you who know how bloody awful it can be sometimes.
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Hi sub teacher,
I’m wondering if perhaps we work at the same school? We also have the red card!
I wish there was something i could do to make you feel better about being called a “c***** fag”. I guess the only thing one can do is laugh and wait to see how much the magic red card will achieve.
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While I agree with most of your argument, but I take offence at your somewhat misleading use of your most fundamental statistic:
“Public schools teach two thirds of our kids but receive one third of Federal Govt education funding.”
On face value, this makes it seem like State schools teach more kids than private schools, but get less money than private schools. That simply isn’t true.
True, public schools only receive one third of FEDERAL GOVERNMENT funding, but this doesn’t mean that they get proportionately less funding per student than private schools.
Federal government funding only accounts for 22.5% of public school’s funding, the rest of it comes from the State/territory government. The state government typically spends about 92% of it’s education funding on public schools.
In total, public schools get about four times the funding that private schools do. Though they’re only teaching twice the amount of students.
I agree that the standard of education received in public schools isn’t high enough, however reducing the funding for private schools and diverting those funds to public schools, can’t be the answer.
Private schools make education cheaper for the government. The government has to fund half of what it does in the public school system, for the same amount of students. Then in the end, the country gets a better educated student. There is also a very wide spectrum of private schools, some far more privileged than others, lumping them all into one category is also very misleading.
The private school system isn’t the problem here, so please don’t try to demonise it.
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I might just take issue with ‘the standard of education received in public schools isn’t high enough’, since ALL teachers come from the same universities. New Scientist recently published (yet another) study which stated that 60% of outcomes for students relate directly to their demographic – parents income, education level achieved etc. etc. I have taught at both exclusive grammar schools as well as low-socioeconomic state schools and there is absolutely no difference in the teaching I deliver at either school. The standard of resources is also vastly different, but the quality of my classroom teaching? Never.
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That’s exactly it. The teaching we deliver is in no way inferior. It’s the availablility of resources that prevents us from reaching potential.
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So if greater and improved resources are needed to achieve better outcomes, by all means fund that – I’m not arguing against more funding for public schools.
What I’m saying, is that whatever the solution (and how we fund it), it shouldn’t mean a decrease in private school funding. I don’t think that diverting funds from private schools to public schools will improve education in Australia overall.
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Where are you getting your stats from Susan – I don’t believe them.
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I’ve taught in both State and Catholic systems and both have great teachers -but for some reason they just care more about their students in Catholic schools. Not sure what it is.
Susan’ s figures on Federal and State funding are right. That’s why they always talk about Federal funding being so low for state school education – because they get so much more from the State Gov.
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Fran, sometimes I think it’s easier to ‘appear’ as though you’re more caring at a private school because the problems are more middle-class (and I mean that in the nicest way, I’m middle class myself!) and therefore easier to solve and handle. I know that at my state school I have felt SO overwhelmed with the myriad of problems the students face I sometimes don’t know where to begin – and that’s before I have begun to mark and prepare tomorrow’s lessons!!!
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A Check ABS. Also last Sunday’s Age had a detailed breakdown of funding sources. Google your heart out. It’s a fact, not a matter of belief.
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Susan you have hit the nail on the head regarding funding. Discussing the amount of Federal Government funding allocated to the public vs private schooling system is worthless unless you also discuss the State funding allocation.
They are called State Schools for a reason because the State primarily funds and controls them.
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LOVE YOUR WORDS. Thank you for saying so well my exact thoughts and feelings and concerns.
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Of course education policy needs to change, but as far as change goes, funding should not be the first priority. What needs to change is mindset. Put simply, education must be valued and this means teachers must be valued and respected (by governments and parents). Principals need power over how money is spent and they should be able to direct school policy – especially over discipline issues.
I was educated in the public school system and for many years a strong supporter of public schools – until I became a teacher. I spent a year part time teaching, 2 days in a local state school and 3 days in a local independant schools. The only difference (both had similar facilities and sensational teachers) was the attitude of the students and their parents. In the independant school, the parents understood that school rules needed to be followed or consequences would ensue. However in contrast, at the state school, students gloated over the fact that school rules were not enforceable -because their parents did not support them.
Therefore, I choose to send my children to Catholic and Independant schools. I work (full time as a teacher) simply to ensure my children can remain in these schools. I made this choice not because of the facilities, not because of a perceived higher quality of teachers, but rather because I knew Independant and Catholic school systems had power to make decisions that would effect the educational outcome of students. In other words they were less hampered by over regulated, out dated policies.
I am not wealthy, sending my children to these schools is a struggle, but I value education. Until attitudes change, until there is a paradigm shift, this is the only option.
Funding will not change attitudes, education will.
All Australian children deserve government assisted educational opportunities.
However it is not changes to funding that will deliver these opportunities.
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With the greatest respect it’s “independent” not “independant”…
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I agree, Nicole I don’t think funding is necessarily the problem, but the attitudes of the parents of children being sent to state schools. As a youth worker 99% of “problem” children/adolescents I work with attend state schools, it has nothing to do with the schools per say but of the dysfunctional families these children are from, where parents couldn’t give a cracker about their child’s welfare or eduction. Teachers are at school to teach not to deal with unruly neglected children which unfortunately state schools seem to have a lot more of.
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To gain equality of outcome we often need inequality of input.
As a retired teacher/principal, 27 years in NSW state schools, it’s still very true.
The thing we should all remember is that great education should be the right of every student.
Australia is an egalitarian society and our education budget should reflect this.
We need to be developing a healthy society, where the children of families on welfare are encouraged to work towards a more rewarding future.
And yes, I’m being judgemental but I’m allowed… children are involved.
If this means early intervention in pre-school and extra literacy teachers… than fund it.
Let’s also have a good hard look at what physical resources each school has and allocate funds for a catch-up eg fully working toilets and air-con in portables. Maybe even share those indoor pools with the little state local.
Agh well, a teacher can dream can’t she. Even if she gets accused of being a Marxist.
I’ve certainly been called worst.
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Well said!
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Keep talking Jane – you speak for so many of us!
I am not anti private school, just pro public school.
We could afford private but my children are going to public high schools.
I hear parents tell me they have “no choice” but to go private. That is not true and I can’t help thinking it is just a way to hide their need to feel that they “belong” to the private school parent group.
Hate to tell them, but their is more to life than where you child goes to school and there is more to education than expensive buildings.
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Just wait. I’ve seen many pro state school parents abandon mid way through their child’s high school “career” when they realise just what they are up against. So many other parents have no investment in their child’s education believing it is not their responsibility and that the school will discipline, educate and parent their child without any help from them.
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I’ve just done exactly what you’re talking about.
I’ve taken my son out of our local public high school at the end of year 9- and he was willing to leave I might add – because the school was simply failing my son by not doing simple things like marking his work!!
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Very true – the social side of the private school sector is, I believe, one of the major reasons they exist!
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Lovely to see you that you completely ignore state government funding and why federal funding exists at all. Is it necessary to be anti private school funding? Would you like to see the non-government schools close down and send the students to government schools? Anyone who has actually studied this knows that this would make every student worse off.
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why do the state and federal funding have to be considered together? The state system balances their funding to offset the number of students plus extra resources needed and funds accordingly (hence why state students receive more). What is then wrong with federal funding being viewed independently? When you do view the federal funding independently their allocation of funds is ridicously unfair.
So again I ask, why must the state and federal funding be considered together?
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because you need to look at the total funding per student!
the majority of funding for state schools is provided by the state (hence being state schools not federal schools!)
all up state school receive around $13000-14000 per student and private schools recieve $3000-4000 per student in funding. clearly state schools receive a lot more funding than private schools on a per student basis when you look at the big picture
as parents of children at private schools generally pay A LOT of tax i find it seriously incredulous that people suggest private schools should receive less funding as its kinda like paying for your burger then not getting your burger
yes state schools need more funding but taking it from the private schools is not the way to go, it will just force more parents to choose the state system and further overload the already overloaded system
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you mean incredible not incredulous. It’s an adjective not an adverb.
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actually it’s like ordering a burger and getting both the burger you ordered and the burger of the poor guy sitting next to you.
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You mean the poor guy who did not actually pay for his whole burger but feels entitled to it?
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That’s the spirit Furious George – no burgers for the undeserving poor.
Bah humbug!
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I haven’t read all 201 comments under here, so forgove me if i’m repeating anything that has been said before.
I am a high school teacher. Right now I am a “sub” or casual, as I can’t get a job in the public school system until one becomes available. In order to be considered for it, I have to jump through hoops and have done casual teaching for a long time (some people have done casual for 10 years, with no secure job in sight). I have taught for 10 years in Victoria and am a good teacher. Not “Dead Poets” awesome, but pretty good. However, NSW will only pay me as a graduate until I sit a series of interviews to prove that I am good enough to be recognized for my prior service. All this, and the talk is of funding. How about encouraging good teacher to stay in the profession by bringing back good leadership in schools and having parents educate their kids in how to treat others at home? Examples:
This week, I taught at a public high school where I was called every word under the sun, (you name it, c-word and all), threatened with violence, had students refuse basic instructions. I came home and applied for non-teaching jobs after two days.
Last week I taught at a private school where the students did everything they were asked and actually appeared to want to be there.
No surprises that I’ll be applying for a job at the private school. On top of actually being treated like a human being in my chosen workplace, at that school they pay me in accordance with my experience.
I’ll also be starting a savings account so my son can go to a private school. The options here are the two public ones, or four privates. I unashamedly admit that the public system is failing kids and I won’t have my son be a part of it.
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Yep I agree with you x 1000
I’ve been called every name under the sun too – at a public school funded to the gills because it’s disadvantaged. Their teachers are ground down to a pulp and operate in survival mode. This is not teaching. And this is why I’m now working in a private school.
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I think it’s terrible that teachers cop so much crap from students and parents. And I hope that teachers realise just how much many of us out there truly to respect and admire the hard work and care they put in to educating our children.
I think that a lot of the problems that you mention about public schools are more to do with schools in low socio-economic areas, rather than public schools in general. And this is *exactly* why these schools deserve more funding. Kids who come from low socio-economic backgrounds need more help from the rest of us, so that they *can* get a good education. It’s not their fault that they haven’t had the same advantages as others, and for every terrible student who’s calling you awful names, I’m sure there are more in the class who are also annoyed that they are missing out on the class lessons, because of the behaviour of some. …And so the cycle continues, kids grow up in the poor areas, they don’t get a good education because their school and family life is riddled with all sorts of problems (many of which could be fixed by lots more money), and then they themselves end up in low paying work, and sending their kids to bad schools. Some of the problems facing people on low incomes can be so ingrained, that the only way to fix them is do the best we can for the next generations, ie. give them an excellent education.
I’d like to add that I know tons of people from low income families who have are truly wonderful people. Not everyone who grows up in a poorer area is going to have issues, but perhaps the journey tends to be a bit harder for them.
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Why is this ‘exactly why they need more funding’? I say in a post below that funding this particular school to the gills made little difference.
All the cricket pitches, air-conditioners, Mac Computers and interactive whiteboards in the world won’t make diddley-squat difference if there are no quality teachers in these schools OR families who value education.
Yes, there are some kids in these classrooms who want to learn. But how do we help them when 80% of our time is spent on ‘crowd control’ and 20% – barely – on teaching and learning. That’s the reality of life in a school like this. And it’s not just inexperienced teachers who have trouble. Those that have been in this school for 25 years just go through the motions, ignore the bad behaviour and have classrooms that resemble a zoo because it’s the only way they can survive and not go on permanent stress leave.
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Well if I was in control of the purse-strings, I would put the money toward more teachers and smaller class sizes. Maybe this would go some way to helping the problem of crowd control – which I agree with you is the main issue. Better pay for teachers might help too, so schools could retain the really excellent ones, and so teachers felt as though it was more worth it to put up with the incredibly hard work.
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Can we put you in charge of education
Seriously, what you saying goes a long way toward helping this problem. However, it is also a cultural issue that no amount of funding at school can help.
As a nation, we need to value education more than we do. This is especially necessary for families in disadvantaged areas. Some families I have had to deal with tell me to ‘f*ck off and leave us alone – school never did me any good..’ They don’t care that their kids are failing at school, are serial truants, vandalise school equipment and swear at teachers. Their own negative experience colours their children’s views – and so it goes on. And we are left to deal with the mess with our whizz-bang interactive whiteboards and Mac computers that – realistically – are making little difference.
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I think I agree with you, in that the funding wouldn’t help a huge deal in the short-term, but it could make a big difference in the long term. Education is the best way to break the cycle of poverty.
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I too work as a relief teacher. The classic for me was when a year 9 boy told me to “lie on my back and earn my money”. Needless to say I have forked out $40,000 post tax dollars a year to educate my children!
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Good kids will be good kids in any school,and if they have the ability they will acheive great results, regardless of how much money their parents spend. Bad kids will be bad kids in any school.
The difference is private schools have the option to “declare their position at the school vacant” so to the public it appears that the school makes “good” students. Too many times I have seen the local public school pick up the mess that the private school didn’t want to deal with.
I have no problem with parents wanting to spend their own money if they believe that it will give their children a better education, but public schools are underfunded and government teachers need to be paid better, any money that the fedral government has to spend on education should go to the public school for the benefit of the majority.
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Just because I teach at an independant school does not mean I recieve more income than a teacher at a State school. There are many independant schools who are not ‘wealthy’.
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Hopefully you teach the kids at your school how to spell “independent” correctly.
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The issue is not how much private schools get, the issue is that some kids are missing out on achieving their full potential. What I want to see is special needs kids and schools with underperforming students get the boost they need – through facilities, through realistic contact hours of learning support, through training for teachers to deal with this. Whatever it takes.
I don’t care how you do it, but I want every Maddie and Max to be able to access what they need to get a full education.
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‘Whatever it takes’
It takes money.
‘The issue is not how much private schools get..’
That is exactly the issue – they get too much of the government money that should be going to public schools to make the improvements you suggest.
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Private schools have special needs kids too – the ones that don’t turn them away…
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Unfortunately most do turn challenging or special needs students away.
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Maybe we should be looking at accountability for government funding?
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So are you advocating that there should be no funding at all to private schools? What is the ‘right’ level of funding?
If there was no funding to private schools then surely there would be a major shift of students to the government system-how do you propose to close this funding gap? It’s all very well to want to take from the private system but you need to present a complete solution to the problem.
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I don’t have a complete solution to the problem, and I don’t know what the ‘right’ level of funding is – but when I drive past Kambala or Scots College, and see the facilities and opportunities they offer their students at 30k +/year, and this is an extreme example, well I just don’t think they need any more funding from the government where other areas are suffering and dire.
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May I remind you that this article is about taking money away whilst you are talking about not giving higher levels funding.
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The article is NOT about taking money away from private schools, it is about a fair and equitable funding system. The current federal funding system isn’t even fair to the majority of private schools, but instead gives more to the richest private institutions, those least in need of it (and amazingly, the massive increase in funding these schools received did NOTHING to reduce their fees to make them accessible to a wider demographic)
EVERY CHILD deserves a quality education. The question is HOW we go about funding that.
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Actually I am not happy to contribute my hard earned dollars to you. We get no family tax benefits. I pay more than my share of taxes and my kids should get a share. No more no less than anyone else paid to the school of our choosing.
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Dear ‘To Hels’,
You assume that because I am advocating fair and equitable funding for public education I obviously must be a welfare recipent subsidised by ‘your’ tax dollars. To be clear, I am a well-educated person with a good income. I receive no family tax benefits. I pay my share of taxes too! If you are paying ‘more than your share of taxes’ you should probably get yourself a new accountant.
So, the difference between us? I just have a better social conscience than you do!
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Yeah – each parent contributes $30,000 a year in fees and pay 49c in every dollar they earn in tax and are Ineligible for any family tax benefits so the school should be gorgeous
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Acutally, thay don’t pay 49c for every dollar they earn. Like everyone else they earn $6000 tax free, then pay 15c per dollar for the next 31,000 they earn. For the next 43,000 in earnings, they pay only 30c per dollar earned. Then 37c per dollar on the next 100.000 earned. The 49c tax rate is only payed on any money over $180,000 earned. Now, if I was fortunate enough to have a job that payed me $180,000, I think I’d be thankful for my good fortune and be happy to contribute to others whose hard-earned cash wasn’t as much as mine.
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So what do you think when you drive past a private hospital?
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We tried the local school and had to pull our son out day 2 as after being bullied the principal told us that it was “character building.” In Kindergarten!
So, we sent him to a private school. We both now work full time (me from home) and are busting ourselves to pay for it but don’t feel like we have a choice. We have 4 kids and will be paying $10K each as well as driving to get there. Our kids are happy which makes it worthwhile.
My tax dollars go to fund the local school and the school we send the kids too. I know that public schools are not well resourced, but the answer is not to take funding away from the private schools. If they didn’t exist or if we pulled our kids out, how will the public schools cope with the increased numbers?
It is cheaper for the government to support private schools than to open new ones!!
I do realise and appreciate that we are fortunate to have it as an option.
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Yes but the funding to private schools is disproportionate. It is a huge problem. It’s human nature to want the best for your offspring and if you can afford it, great. Yes you are very fortunate to have that as an option. Most people don’t. And that is why you must bear this social inequality in your mind and think of what kind of society you want to live in if disadvantaged kids are not being given a big enough piece of the pie.
‘Public schools teach two thirds of our kids but receive one third of Federal Govt education funding’. This is not enough.
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That’s only federal government funding – not ALL funding.
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You’re right. But are you suggesting total funding from state and federal is doing a good enough job?
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In total (state and federal govt funding) a child at a state school gets more funding than those at an independent or catholic school. The big problem is that the state governments don’t know how to handle the money properly. A catholic school child gets around $3000 less per year in total government funding than a state school child and that system also looks after children whose parents can’t pay the extra school fees as well as children with additional needs and ATSI children. Is it fair to take money away from them? Last also remember that we cannot really differentiate that much between state and federal money as it all comes from our taxes to start with.
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It’s not about taking money away from them. It’s about creating a fair and equitable system that may actually provide MORE money for those private institutions that actually do educate at-risk, disabled and underpriveleged students.
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$10K is around half of what I pay.
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I am a massive public school supporter. In life you need to mix and work with people from all walks of life, why not learn that through your formative years. It is impossible to go though life wrapped in an excusive cocoon. And I also feel there is a signiificant socio-economic pecking order that evolves in some private schools.
Isnt it also the case that students from from public schools do better in university undergraduate courses, as they are not as’ spoon fed’ for want of a better term. . Maybe I dreamt that, but I think that is the case. Anyway, despite being able to send my daughters to any school in the area, they will be going to the public secondary school. I hope their experience is as positive as mine was.
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Gosh ‘the wounded bull’. I NEVER agree with any of your comments, but I am in total agreement with your comment above (and if I’m being honest, has totally changed my opinion about you).
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Haha same. I read the comment, nodding along, and then read who wrote it and thought ‘that can’t be right’.
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Well, glad I can surprise some, maybe I am not as one dimensional as many of you think. It pays to never judge or pigeon hole anyone hey.
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What an ill-formed, cliched view. You obviously have no idea what goes on in a private school or who sends their children there.
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Every time I see the term ‘spoon-fed’ or hear that everyone at private schools is a ‘snob’ I know that here’s another one with a chip on their shoulder….
Perhaps choose some new terminology if you want to be taken seriously.
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I have zero chip on my shoulder thanks. I have been lucky enough to be successful in my business life and can send my girls anywhere at all, but I had such a positive experience in the public school system myself, and feel that they will benefit from being exposed to a cross section of the community (which I feel is important). I feel that is what is right for my girls.
This is just my opinion, and I did say ‘some private schools’ in my commentary. I do also believe that public school students do better at uni, but happy to stand corrected if this is based on old data (it was certainly the case 15 – 20 years ago) .
Relax Max. You do whats right for your kids, I will what is right for mine thanks.
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Data? What data? Good to see you felt the need to repeat that you have plenty of money. No chip at all…
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hu???? whatever.
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I am a public school teacher. I love my job and I love my school. Reading the comments under this article is just depressing.
Public vs private to me becomes counter productive (as demonstrated by the cyclic debate here).
My question: why do the kids who attend my school deserve unconditioned rooms, a hall our school can’t fit in, no gym, science labs kitted in the 60s etcetc and the kids at Kings / Knox deserve their resources? It’s not fair. Plain and simple. Knox have an investment portfolio. They don’t NEED govt money. There are rural catholic schools who need more funding and some public schools that are well set up.
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I am not happy with the assumption that those that send their kids to private schools are affluent. We have chosen private schools for our children. My partner and I both work very hard and very full-time. We have chosen education as our priorty and have sacrificed in other areas to achieve that. Generalisations such as rich kids in private schools don’t help the argument and are not accurate.
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According to the ABS figures, 14% of students in Australia attend independent schools. I would say you are most definitely ‘affluent’ in the relative sense to afford this luxury. For the vast majority of people, private education is not a ‘choice’. You are very lucky and yes, ‘affluent’, despite the sacrifices you have made.
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What is your point? Also according to the article above it is actually one third.
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My point is when you are able to attend a school that is afforded by only a small percentage of people – then this makes you relatively affluent. So to state otherwise is disingenuous.
The ABS statistics (go on, check them!) say 14% of kids in Australia go to independent schools (another 20% catholic), the rest public.
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So what is your point about being affluent and school funding-because you haven’t made an actual a point yet.
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My point is not about being affluent and school funding. My point is you ARE affluent compared to the majority if you can afford private education. I’m not sure what was so difficult to follow in that thread.
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2/3 are in the public system. The other 1/3 are in either independent OR catholic schools. They are not the same.
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And what about the affluent people who choose to send their children to public schools? Those who choose to spend after tax money on education instead of a boat or expensive car are to be condemned?
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Why why why why are we banging on about funding AGAIN?
What we really need is quality teachers. I am a teacher so feel qualified to comment.
No amount of swimming pools, air conditioning and computers can make up for quality teaching. I have worked in a NSW school that is part of the ‘national partnerships’ scheme which funds disadvantaged schools. Believe me when I say that this school has money coming out of its ears. It’s funded for specialised tutoring, there are small class sizes, every bell and whistle you can imagine – and yet NOT ONE of their Year 12 cohort scored a Band Six (90% or above) in last year’s HSC and their NAPLAN results for the last three years have been abysmal. Many of their staff were sitting back riding out the years to their fat superannuation funds, not giving a bugger about their students. One comment I heard was ‘who cares…most of these kids will end up on the Centrelink queue anyway’
How are massive amounts of funding helping this school?
You can keep your funding argument but money won’t buy a good education. Good teachers make a good education.
Attract good teachers by, for starters, by paying a salary that reflects the importance of their job. Whilst at university, give pre-service teachers plenty of opportunities to get in front of real classes, give beginning teachers good quality mentors who care, guide and foster a love of learning.
Kids can learn in a tin shed if they have a teacher who knows their content, loves their subject and has a great rapport with kids. Spend the money on teacher quality and the rest will follow.
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Interesting to know what your partnership money was spent on? Many schools including ours used partnership money in ways that have seen great results and we are now self-funding a coach to continue this growth We know what makes a good education and we know we can’t keep relying on government hand outs to continue this, we have the resources (the teachers) and we have to keep investing in them.
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Also I whole-heartedly agree with your post, am just interested in how your partnership money was spent?
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How was the partnership money spent? Staffing – tutors, SSO’s, updated cabling of computer labs. This is anecdotal as I wasn’t on the executive so I can’t comment. In fact, your question is a good one…I honestly don’t know where they spent the money. Nothing specific springs to mind.
The money didn’t change the results, however. And the same group of teachers continue to rock up, collect their pay and do very little. Not fair on the kids and no amount of money will change this.
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Can I ask how long they’ve had the scheme?
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Of course quality teaching is imperative. If a school has the best of everything and rubbish staff then student outcomes won’t improve. This doesn’t change the fact that kids look around at their crappy, poorly resourced school and start to think they deserve less and are worth less than others.
And that’s not true.
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Why are you separating the ideas of funding and teaching? If the public system get more funding from the federal govt, why is it assumed it would be spent on infrastructure?
I agree that teacher quality is essential. And I believe that we need to be attracting more bright minds to teaching. But more funding isn’t just about textbooks and smartboards. It’s aso about teacher support, teacher development, and improving teaching conditions.
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Yes it is – but as funds are distributed to schools and the school executive make the decisions, I can only comment on what I’ve seen – which is truckloads of money spent on spick and span science labs, a whiteboard for every classroom and zero on staff development.
Also, training teachers is university funding – nothing to do with schools.
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Alas we are seeing a re-run of all the old arguments that pay scant attention to what the Gonski review and its associated research is highlighting – along with data from My School.
So we get the ‘who gets money from where’ argument. The reality is that it is how schools get their money that matters. Private schools get much from fees, hence it is those who can afford fees who enrol, distorting the profile of all schools.
Then there is the blackmail. If you take our subsidies we’ll swamp your schools. I don’t think so.
Related to this is the ‘private schools save public money’ line, as if saving money was the sole purpose of having schools, regardless of the real long term cost of these “savings”
Then there is the Catholic schools do better with less money line. Not much in it when you compare schools with a similar type of enrolments.
Then there is the ‘I pay taxes and I’m entitled’ argument – treating taxes as a little piggy bank we can draw on to follow our choices. That is a bit dodgy.
Of course the blogs are littered with the ‘my children went to xxxxx school and it was xxxxxx. Nice stories – but proving what exactly? That we can forever compare apples with oranges and keep a straight face?
Then there arguments about who enrols the poor, vouchers, the struggling elite schools and much more. We know enough to consign most of these arguments to the dust bin but still they come.
Come on, we can do better.
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What an interesting article, and one close to my heart. It’s interesting to note the questions of why both state and federal governments give finance to non-government schools? Why on earth would a government fund something it doesn’t have to? Because it saves them bucketloads of cash that’s why! Every parent that sends a child to a private school (elite or not) is effectively saving the government money, as they reduce the cost of funding the public health system. Just as anyone who buys public health insurance saves the government money by reducing the cost of funding the health system. So of course the government will contribute to a private school student’s education, as the parents will cough up the rest and that’s one less student to worry about educating in the public system.
This is the system and how it works unfortunately. As a public educator, I truly believe we have to stop waiting for policies to change, stop waiting for the system to become ‘fair’ and work with what we’ve got. Recent studies including those by the notable John Hattie, clearly show that the teacher makes the most difference in student learning, not class size, not swimming pools and gymnasiums, but the effectiveness of the teacher and their relationship with the students. Unfortunately unlike independent schools we don’t have the ability to hire and fire to ensure we have the best teachers to start of with, but we can make an investment in the teachers we do have and train them to be the best they can be. There are plenty of public schools (including mine) that are doing that and seeing real results.
So while not saying public schools should ‘get over it’ as I do believe we need to continue to fight for a fairer deal, I also believe we need to get on with the job of educating the young minds in our care.
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I agree with kirt, recently on four corners there was a great doco titled education revolution which followed two government schools and one private school. In a nutshell what was surmised was that good outcomes in students is related to teacher student relationships, teacher training and the fact private schools have a lot more power in dismissing teachers who are not pulling their weight so to speak. Recommended viewing on the abc website.
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