According to a study recently conducted in England, most people can’t tell the difference between quotes from British “lad’s mags” and interviews with convicted rapists.
Take a moment to digest just how appalling that is.
The research conducted by psychologists from Middlesex University and the University of Surrey also revealed that most men who took part in the study identified themselves more with the language expressed by the convicted rapists. There’s some insight into the world of men’s magazines that you probably could have done without.
In Australia, the circulation figures for these magazines are dropping. Figures from the Audit Bureau of Circulation show that Zoo Weekly lost a quarter of its circulation in a year and FHM’s figures were down over 19%.
Warning: the information contained below may be confronting to some readers. For those who have experienced abuse and need counselling services please visit these national services or the NSW Rape Crisis Centre.
Psychologists presented men between the ages of 18 and 46 with a range of statements taken from magazines and from convicted rapists and gave the men different information about the source of the quotes.
Many of the rapists who were quoted in the study talked about coercing women into sex or having sex with them even though they were unwilling. The men’s magazines did the same. Take a look for yourself. These are the quotes used in the study:
1. There’s a certain way you can tell that a girl wants to have sex . . . The way they dress, they flaunt themselves.
2. Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?
3. A girl may like anal sex because it makes her feel incredibly naughty and she likes feeling like a dirty slut. If this is the case, you can try all sorts of humiliating acts to help live out her filthy fantasy.
4. Mascara running down the cheeks means they’ve just been crying, and it was probably your fault . . . but you can cheer up the miserable beauty with a bit of the old in and out.
5. What burns me up sometimes about girls is dick-teasers. They lead a man on and then shut him off right there.
6. Filthy talk can be such a turn on for a girl . . . no one wants to be shagged by a mouse . . . A few compliments won’t do any harm either . . . ‘I bet you want it from behind you dirty whore’ . . .
7. You know girls in general are all right. But some of them are bitches . . . The bitches are the type that . . . need to have it stuffed to them hard and heavy.
8. Escorts . . . they know exactly how to turn a man on. I’ve given up on girlfriends. They don’t know how to satisfy me, but escorts do.
9. You’ll find most girls will be reluctant about going to bed with somebody or crawling in the back seat of a car . . . But you can usually seduce them, and they’ll do it willingly.
10. There’s nothing quite like a woman standing in the dock accused of murder in a sex game gone wrong . . . The possibility of murder does bring a certain frisson to the bedroom.
11. Girls ask for it by wearing these mini-skirts and hotpants . . . they’re just displaying their body . . . Whether they realise it or not they’re saying, ‘Hey, I’ve got a beautiful body, and it’s yours if you want it.’
12. You do not want to be caught red-handed . . . go and smash her on a park bench. That used to be my trick.
13. Some women are domineering, but I think it’s more or less the man who should put his foot down. The man is supposed to be the man. If he acts the man, the woman won’t be domineering.
14. I think if a law is passed, there should be a dress code . . . When girls dress in those short skirts and things like that, they’re just asking for it.
15. Girls love being tied up . . . it gives them the chance to be the helpless victim.
16. I think girls are like plasticine, if you warm them up you can do anything you want with them.
The researchers also asked a separate group of women and men aged between 19 and 30 to rank the quotes on how derogatory they were. Both men and women rated the quotes from men’s magazines as somewhat more derogatory.
Lead researcher from Middlesex University, Dr Miranda Horvath says: “We were surprised that participants identified more with the rapists’ quotes, and we are concerned that the legitimisation strategies that rapists deploy when they talk about women are more familiar to these young men than we had anticipated.”
“These magazines support the legitimisation of sexist attitudes and behaviours and need to be more responsible about their portrayal of women, both in words and images. They give the appearance that sexism is acceptable and normal – when really it should be rejected and challenged. Rapists try to justify their actions, suggesting that women lead men on, or want sex even when they say no, and there is clearly something wrong when people feel the sort of language used in a lads’ mag could have come from a convicted rapist.”
This is just a little bit of what these men’s magazines are offering the Australian reader:

What do you think of men’s magazines? Do you come across them often?
Oh, and those answers for the quotes: 1. Rapist, 2. Rapist, 3. Lad mag, 4. Lad mag, 5. Rapist, 6. Lad mag, 7. Rapist, 8. Lad mag, 9. Rapist, 10. Lad mag, 11. Rapist, 12. Lad mag, 13. Rapist, 14. Rapist, 15. Lad mag, 16. Lad mag







Comments
122 Comments so far
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What’s the difference between a men’s magazine and a rapist? Well, nothing, of course. Females have been declaring all men are rapists for 50 years .
I would have thought that anyone who was well and who had any experience with interpreting data would have to come to the conclusion that what a man might think does not make him a rapist. However, you come up with the exact OPPOSITE conclusion.
Something that I find utterly at odds with this is the notion that it’s a lucky thing. The number one female sexual fantasy by far is to be raped. Hahaha. I know you want to know the second; to have sex with multiple men concurrently. Filthy females. Sexually objectifying men and wantonly indulging in aggressive sexual acts which demean the poor men.
Interestingly, according to Cosmo females, 57% of females expect men to buy their drinks if there is the possibility of sex. However, if a man buys a female drinks, then subsequently has sex with her, he is guilty of administering a stupefying drug and RAPE. But females still expect to exchange sex for drinks. Is it any wonder there are few females at the top?
Jayne
My women’s mag collection is extensive. I have NEVER seen comments encouraging rape or about ‘giving it’ to men who are ‘asking for it’.
Oh dear. You haven’t lived life much have you. Let’s start with the society set up by females in the sixties I think it was. It’s called the Society for Cutting Up Men – SCUM. They even have a “manifesto” which I thought was odd. Wouldn’t it be more like a femifesto? There are an infinite number of pages on the net extolling the virtues of females being at WAR with men. Obviously, if you are at war with someone then you fully intend to kill them. If you wish I can list pages and pages of hateful comments made by females against men. The most popular is still the misogynist one though.
“I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire.” From Robin Morgan, “Theory and Practice: Pornography and Rape” in “Going too Far,” 1974. .
“When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression…” Sheila Jeffrys .
“Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women’s bodies.” Andrea Dworkin
“Sex is the cross on which women are crucified … Sex can only be adequately defined as universal rape.” Hodee Edwards, ‘Rape defines Sex’
“I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which a man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He’s just incapable of it.” – Former Congresswoman Barbara Jordan
Melbourne City Councilwoman Pat Poole announced her opposition to renaming a street for Martin Luther King: “I wonder if he really accomplished things, or if he just stirred people up and caused a lot of riots.”
“Our culture is depicting sex as rape so that men and women will become interested in it.” Naomi Wolf, The Beauty Myth, p. 138..
“Under patriarchy, no woman is safe to live her life, or to love, or to mother children. Under patriarchy, every woman is a victim, past, present, and future. Under patriarchy, every woman’s daughter is a victim, past, present, and future. Under patriarchy, every woman’s son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman,” Andrea Dworkin, Liberty, p.58..
“Compare victims’ reports of rape with women’s reports of sex. They look a lot alike….[T]he major distinction between intercourse (normal) and rape (abnormal) is that the normal happens so often that one cannot get anyone to see anything wrong with it.” Catherine MacKinnon, quoted in Christina Hoff Sommers, “Hard-Line Feminists Guilty of Ms.-Representation,” Wall Street Journal, November 7, 1991.
“The fact is that the process of killing – both rape and battery are steps in that process- is the prime sexual act for men in reality and/or in imagination.”. Andrea Dworkin, Letters from a War Zone, p. 22..
“Man’s discovery that his genitalia could serve as a weapon to generate fear must rank as one of the most important discoveries of prehistoric times, along with the use of fire, and the first crude stone axe.” Susan Brownmiller, Against Our Will: Men, Women, and Rape, p. 5..
“The newest variations on this distressingly ancient theme center on hormones and DNA: men are biologically aggressive; their fetal brains were awash in androgen; their DNA, in order to perpetuate itself, hurls them into murder and rape.” Andrea Dworkin, Letters from a War Zone, p. 114..
When asked: “You [Greer] were once quoted as saying your idea of the ideal man is a woman with a dick. Are you still that way inclined?”
Dr Greer (denying that she said it): “I have a great deal of difficulty with the idea of the ideal man. As far as I’m concerned, men are the product of a damanged gene. They pretend to be normal but what they’re doing sitting there with benign smiles on their faces is they’re manufacturing sperm. They do it all the time. They never stop. I mean, we women are more reasonable. We pop one follicle every 28 days, whereas they are producing 400 million sperm for each ejaculation, most of which don’t take place anywhere near an ovum. I don’t know that the ecosphere can tolerate it.” Germaine Greer, at a Hilton Hotel literary lunch, promoting her book #34; The Change– Women, Aging and the Menopause#34; . From a newsreport dated 14/11/91
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Interesting article. I didn’t keep score, but I picked most of the rapist lines. There was more a sense of realness to their statements, whereas most of the mag statements seem to have more of a fantasy element IMO. Pretty disturbing overall though (esp seeing some of the views real rapsist have).
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Me and my boyfriend just did it, and I got 3/16 and he got 6/16… not too sure what that means…
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I’m really surprised to see Ruby Rose modelling for these magazines. Not because she’s gay but because she’s an intelligent woman who’s forged a career that revels in her alternative beauty. I just didn’t imagine this would sit comfortably with her.
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She did it for money.
Everyone has a price. The magazine obviously found hers.
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I LOVE men’s magazines! I don’t think the Australian men’s magazines would say anything that crossed into a rapist’s mindset. So many people seem to put down men’s magazines but I think the Aussie men’s magazines are fun and celebrate women and are great for society!
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I just wanted to say that I took the quiz and i got 3 wrong out of 16. I think I’ve got the rapists more or less pinned. I’m relieved. I personally think that many of the lads mag quotes sound a bit tongue in cheek (not that it makes them ok). I could mostly read into the actual rapist quotes a sense of power play and seeing women totally as a possession for manipulation and coercion.
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Also it needs to be pointed out that all of the quotes relating to girls “asking for it” were actual rapists. Pretty much none of them were from mens magazines.
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I’ve read plenty of women’s magazines over the years, and I definitely have never seen degrading and violent language anywhere NEAR that, even in the most risque sealed sections. If anything, they’re all about ways to give men pleasure. Those quotes are horrific.
What are the articles like in gay mens’ mags? Do they suggest that a guy in tight pants/short shorts is ‘asking for it’? Or that all gay men like it rough? Is there a gay version of misogyny, directed towards effeminate men?
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This is besides the point but I would have never recognised Jennifer Hawkins if the cover didn’t have her name on it. She looks completely different now, I never realised she had so much work done on her face.
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Revolting comments in the lad mags. How nice to hear their circulation is dropping.
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You are muck-raking Mia. Should probably start writing for the Herald Sun with sensationalist crap like this. Men’s magazines are tongue-in-cheek. They are funny, and if you were not a prude or just trying to start a (ridiculous) argument, you would not have written this article. The sad thing is Mia, my missus reads your blog like you are an intelligent, alternative voice. You are a joke. A bad one.
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I feel sorry for your “missus”.
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Haha me too
good one
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Kieran, you’re more than welcome to disagree here but note the comment guidelines below where you post your thoughts. No rude or abusive / offensive language or we’ll show you the door. Otherwise, make yourself at home
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Delete?
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Anyone else thinking Mrs McKenna comes here for an alternative voice because she doesn’t get to hear an intelligent one at home?
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I saw this on FB a while back. It’s certainly disturbing.
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Ok, I’m sure I’ll get some nasty comments for this but it must be said;
My husband buys Zoo & sometimes FHM, and I read them also (I lack the ‘me time’ needed to devour an entire book these days). Honestly, I don’t think I’ve ever seen comments such as those above in either magazine. Perhaps I’m missing them, seeing as how I’m not interested in the semi-clothed girls or the particularly blokey parts. However, having read the majority of most of the mags he brings home, I’ve never seen such offensive, and frankly scary attitudes from the lads that feature in the Australian versions. I have seen the occasional British version though, and was not the slightest bit impressed by the attitudes and crude sense of humour displayed by both the readers and the writers of those mags; very crass on the whole.
Now I’m not in any way endorsing the attitude displayed in the article above, I was quite surprised by them in fact, and it scares me to think that there are people around who do think like that. What I am saying is that those quotes were taken from British men magazines, not Australian. So while the pics show various scantily-clad girls on the covers of Zoo/FHM/Ralph etcetera, I haven’t seen any examples of this sort of thinking INSIDE the magazines, from either readers or contributors.
(I’m not getting into the whole debate about the semi-naked women in these publications, honestly, that’s a whole other argument. One which I had with hubby earlier today coincidentally, in relation to a new Hooters restaurant that has just opened in our local area!) I just hate the thought that all men who read these mags are heaped in together as vile pigs, when I think that those with a more mature attitude can see it as a bit of light reading material. Seriously, they do have some interesting articles!!
And usually more informative and fact-based than the gossip mags around these days…
Righto, off soapbox now, fire away!
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I’ve never minded a read of Ralph or any of them, either, SS. They’re very funny a lot of the time!
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The study was British, so I assumed that it was the British version of the mags. I’ve never read them, because people and picture magazine put me off men’s mags years ago.
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Dont womens magazines often degrade men in similiar ways?
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No, they don’t.
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My women’s mag collection is extensive. I have NEVER seen comments encouraging rape or about ‘giving it’ to men who are ‘asking for it’.
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They teach little dominated us how to please men. Sometimes, it has a bit about pleasing ourselves too, we’re so lucky.
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Agreed! Both men’s and womens magazines are saturated by a dominant-male paradigm unfortunately.
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If you mean that they teach women how to lose weight (so they look good for men), how to dress and preen (so they look good for men) and how to be a good little cook (but not eat the food, because then you’ll get fat) then yes, yes they degrade men constantly.
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The similarity between rapists and some men who use internet dating sites is also a topic along these lines.
My experiences of talking to some men via internet dating sites has made me so repulsed, and I wonder whether any of these men would talk to women ‘in real life’ like they do online. And if these things were said/done in real life it would be sexual assault.
Many men just launch into sex talk. It is like they get past hello and then tell me about their big sex drive, ask me sexual questions, request sexual photos and are generally dicks (excuse the pun). I had a guy who wanted to meet me, when I said I didn’t feel I know him well enough, he said ‘well we’ll meet at a park, see if we like each other and then I’ll follow you home so we can kiss on your couch’. When I said no, he said ‘FFS, I am not a rapist’ and wanted to know whether I had been raped.
The behaviour of some of these men is appalling.
And perhaps this sort of behaviour comes from them reading men’s magazines.
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Oh my goodness, that is disturbing.
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That is disturbing. I just can’t resist going one further and telling you about a disturbing experience I had in real life (as opposed to on the internet). In 2008 I was getting cosy with a guy at a party, I think he was about 18. We were just kissing and then he asks me, wait for it, ‘can I come on your tits’. I laughed in his face! Can you believe that?! Talk about distortion of sexual intimacy, no thanks to the derogatory attitudes towards women in magazines and pornography.
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Oh, dear God.
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Hmmm, I had a younger colleague start to bombard me with explicit emails at work that were in a similar vein. Despite telling him to stop, I had to get his manager involved. So far so good.
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Carly – I’ve heard similar stories from friends on dating sites. One of my friends went on a date with a guy she met online and she arranged to meet him in a public place near where he lived. He then mentioned that he needed to ‘get something from his place’ and since she needed to go to the bathroom she agreed to come along. When she came out of the bathroom, he had taken his pants off and said, ‘come on, take a look, just touch it, baby’. Luckily he didn’t force himself on her but it was still very disturbing. Needless to say, she got the hell outta there quick smart and is now much more careful!
She also mentioned that when chatting to guys they bring up sex as soon as they get past ‘hello’.
I hope you are being careful!
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well, i feel more than a little repulsed.
ive often thought, and this may be a wildly unpopular view, but as well as decent sex education classes, schools should have classes about respect, right and wrong, sexist views etc. for boys and girls.
sadly, as sick as this article made me feel, i think the worst part is that im not all that surprised by it….
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yuck yuck yuck
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Interesting that magazines can print such misogynistic stuff with impunity. It is clearly still acceptable in our society to hate women. If that statement sounds unsubstantiated, substitute ‘black person’ into those magazine quotes, for every term describing women, and the vileness of the quotes is even more obvious.
Iv often wondered why we have collectively confronted racism so much more effectively than we have sexism. While racism still exists, its broadly considered unacceptable both culturally and legally – whereas these publications show that misogyny is alive and well and an acceptable attitude for blokes to have.
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Agree with you completely. Racism and homophobia are frowned upon, but sexism is ignored. It’s time for a change.
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Lad’s mags, rapists, and standard teenage boy chatter in a classroom.
Some of the things I’ve heard in class rooms, I could never repat.
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Totally agree with your comments. Perhaps less magazines & porn for men and more communication with real women.
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15. Girls love being tied up . . . it gives them the chance to be the helpless victim.
I’m not sure that this one should be on the list because the world is full of people (both males and females) who do enjoy sex role plays with their partners that involved them getting tired up or restrained in other ways.
Not every one goes through life having vanilla sex.
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I think there is a big difference between saying what you have said – that some people male and female enjoy sex role plays- and saying the general statement that ‘girls like being tied up and being helpless victims’
Big difference.
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And how many stories in Cleo/Cosmo stating “Men love…” I remember a sealed section explaining the nitty gritty of the girl being a double adaptor in a threesome not that long ago in Cosmo.
I think most of the lad mag comments are taken out of context.
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The trouble is we are just given that one line of text
15. Girls love being tied up . . . it gives them the chance to be the helpless victim. in isolation. We aren’t given the complete article in question, so we don’t know the context.
Being given a series of bullet points as stand alones doesn’t do anyone any good. It’s just an article that is written to arouse passions and for the website to get lots of comments
Same as #3, a lot of woman do in fact enjoy anal sex for what ever reason. #6, some women (and men) also enjoy that ‘sort’ of talk during sex, #8 yes escorts are probably more skilled at sexually pleasing a man and there is nothing wrong with men going to an escort. #9 plus #16, so…if you want to have sex with a woman get her aroused and in the mood…what’s wrong with that?????
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Anon, those quotes are specifically what the researchers used. They weren’t selected by MM, they were a critical part of the study. Make of that what you will, but be sure of your facts.
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They weren’t selected by MM, they were a critical part of the study.
You’re right I didn’t word that very well at all. I need to keep my fingers off the keyboard until my brain is engaged. I should have said that the mummamia forum made a post about the results of a study that were presented in a sensational way and included a series of dot points.
I stand by what I said about the lack of context to the bullet points.
Let’s say “Rick” that you and I met at a party and we start chatting and being open about sex is the only thing that we have in common, so we start talking about sexual fetishes, our experiences with BDSM and that side of sexuality. I tell you that I enjoy tying a man to the bed and that I completely ignore his moans and his begging as I torture him
That statement comes across as me being a rapist. But you know that I’m not because our conversation also included additional information that the man was my partner who I was torturing with an ice cube and his begging was for me to perform oral sex on him and put him out of his misery.
I could go on and on with other examples but I won’t.
I really should have signed on before I originally commented, but I was too lazy and didn’t think that anyone would respond to my comment.
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I think you raise a valid point. It doesn’t work for all of these, however, so it’s not an explanation for the entire study. But I certainly see what you are saying!
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I don’t understand “mens” magazines – I don’t understand who buys them…
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But you are special JJ . . .
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Not many people buy them, they are mostly struggling.
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Which gives me faith that most ‘men’ are not the ‘boys’ these magazines believe.
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Don’t have too much faith, those mags have been replaced by internet porn….and some of the stuff on there is easily rape fantasies.
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Ultimately I think that this study will do more harm than good. These quotes are places before us in a complete vacuum of information, so it’s easy to forget that people will be influenced by their own experiences.
For the few quotes I identify with, I’m reminded of loving experiences with ex-girlfriends, I doubt that the rapist who was quoted is thinking of similar experiences.
The fact that I “identify” with more rapist quotes than mens mag quotes is troubling, even disgusting, but I don’t think this study is an accurate portrayal of young men’s sexual education, certainly not of mine anyway, and it’s worrying that it could be interpreted as indicative of the sexual drives of the male population.
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Yes it is disgusting, but there is a big difference between thoughts (distasteful) and actions (if unconsenting then illegal). Just because some readers may think some distasteful thoughts doesn’t necessarily mean that they are going to act them out.
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I find attitude the English have towards sex seems to be odd generally, and their media sinks to lower depths than ours.
Rape is never justified. I feel if out at night and I want to be treated with respect however I should dress and behave like I deserve it. If someone wants to flaunt it all with the behaviour to match – no point crying over derogatory sexist comments.
It makes me sick either sex who are so superficial and shallow, worse is the manipulative behaviour people demonstrate.
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To be perfectly honest, I’m more disgusted with the women who participate in these lads magazines than the statements themselves. Just look at all those covers; my gender reduced to a hot pair of tits on a magazine stand. It’s like feminism never happened.
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I’ve always been really torn about this sort of thing, similarly when topics such as stripping, Lingerie Football etc. are being discussed.
A common viewpoint is that “these women choose to do this and who are The Feminists to say they can’t”, which makes a valid point. They can do with their bodies what they want…
But at the same time, when what they are doing with their bodies affects perceptions of women as a whole, should we really support it? The women on the covers and within, by virtue of being there, are seen to condone the attitudes about women contained in the magazine.
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It’s like a cultural-wide Stockholm Syndrome. It’s too hard to fight against it, so the women embrace it and compete to see who can be the best at fitting into the model of “femininity” and “gender” that has been contructed for them. That’s certainly easier than attempting to create new gender roles and being labelled an angry feminist.
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What a fascinating comment. In a good way!
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To quote Caitlin Moran (again), these women are the Vichy France of feminism. They might throw around words like ‘empowering’ and ‘choice’ but they are collaborating with the enemy to drag us all down.
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I’m reading her book at the moment – really enjoying it.
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Slight correction – her phrase is ‘Vichy France with tits’.
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I’d rather aim my furore at the game, not the player.
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Yes, I totally agree with this. I was with someone into the violent derogatory crap and he got all of it from porn of the same nature, which he’d been watching since he was quite young.
It’s not just the magazines – it’s the porn that is so easily accessible from such a young age, really shapes their view of what sex is. Which can be very detrimental to a healthy relationship; harmful enough without making them into a rapist.
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I am one of those dudes who has a hard time connecting sexually as the result of stuff like this. It truly is a subtle destroyer of true intamacey.
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Thanks for your perspective on this Rob, interesting to hear that!
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I picked pretty much all of them correctly – maybe I watch too much crime on TV.
The lad mag ones were gross and piggish, and I wouldn’t like to meet more than one of these guys on a dark night (because they tend to egg each other on to escalate things), but I was far more unsettled by the quiet air of entitlement to power over women that the rapist ones demonstrated. Really scary stuff, because there is no ‘off switch’ with these guys – and so much of it’s hidden so you can’t see it coming.
A really fascinating comparison, though – it’s articles like this that keep me coming back to MM when I should be working …
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“I think there is actually a perception in our culture that women enjoy sex like this”
I’m a woman and I enjoy sex like this. I’m certainly not the only one.
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I think the issue is that they imply that *all* women should *obviously* enjoy this kind of encounter — totally cool if you do happen to like it, but it should never be assumed or not discussed first…
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Well, I thought it was obvious which quotes were which, I got them all right when this story came out a while ago.
UK mens mags are a whole different breed to Aussie ones. It’s like comparing the Herald Sun with The Sun or Daily Mail. There all shit, but the UK papers take it to a whole new level.
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Oh. My. God. This is one of those moments when I just….despair. About humanity. The idea that men think like that is truly frightening (an enough men that this is what appears in popular magazines).
At least readership is down.
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I would say readership is down because this stuff, and worse, is available free online.
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I recall some of the old Cleo and Cosmo sealed sections as being pretty confronting and reinforcing of outdated gender stereo types.
Tess makes some excellent points.
I think it’s very important that sexual partner’s learn each others cues for their needs and wants. I feel so sorry for guys trying to navigate a new partner’s likes and dislikes. I can see how they would be in big trouble really quickly if they hit a wrong note….
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To be frank, I found all statements frightening. It seemed the lad mag quotes were distinguishable by the language used. The magazine quotes were often specific about the act performed/to be performed. Those quotes were more confronting, more difficult to dismiss. Of course, they were all revolting, but specific statements were more icky, like if someone gave you the specifics of a pap smear being performed, rather than just stating that one had been performed. This confronting nature may have led people to rate them as more offensive.
The rapists quotes were more general and expressions of an attitude that certain types behaviour should amount to consent to sexual acts. They were also statements of a kind that I have heard many very young men make when I was also young, thinking it was OK if in jest. Most of those men weren’t rapists (as far as i know). While I probably haven’t heard many men making such specific statements about sexual acts, even in jest. I think it’s likely that many people are like me and heard these general statements before and that would in a way normalize it. Also rating such statements as highly offensive may have felt like agreeing to the statement men who make these statements are likely to be rapists, even though that wasn’t actually the question. And no one wants to believe that they know men who are rapists.
I have children too. A post like this makes me realize that I owe it to them to make sure they are educated about respect for other people specifically in relation to sex. It will be awkward, but it seems they will need support to sort these issues out in their hearts and minds if this kind revolting stuff is common.
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My hubby buys zoo every week but I have never bothered to read it. I know he likes to read the articles about sport & blowing stuff up but I think that’s pretty much all he reads, the rest of it is just ogling the pictures I think.
This being said he is the most loving caring gentle man who has nothing but respect for women. He cooks, cleans, helps care for our son & even puts the toilet seat down.
I’m not saying these types of magazines are wrong or right or that the quotes in them are acceptable, I am just concerned that men who buy lads mags will be labelled rapists, when they are not.
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Not rapists, just idiots. These magazines treat men like stereotypes: dumb, beer guzzling men just out to get laid, and women as either bimbos or shrill girlfriends (think beer ads). Im sure only stupid 18 year olds read it. I just am concerned that’s the most impressionable age..
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Agreed probably not the best reading material for young impressionable men. Hubby is 30 but does spend a great deal of time thinking about beer, sex & food. Lol
I have no problem with him buying or reading these magazines, but understand the concern for more impressionable readers.
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I feel ill. I’m speechless.
I have a little 8 month old girl and magazines like this make me so worried for her.
Its disgusting.
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This makes me feel sick
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This is really disturbing and it is frightening that the lads mag quotes are more misogynistic than the rapist ones. The one about “smash[ing] her on a park bench” is sickening.
The culture of transferring blame has to stop – no one “asks for it”. Ever.
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Vomit.
Any of those men out there who think that they are ones who have the raw deal in comparison to women within our society (the whinging white men who are ‘oppressed’ because women have it soo easy) need to read that study.
The sexism and objectification of women in western countries is so insidious that it’s just a basic fundamental world view for people. In other countries it’s blatant and horrific, we are obviously comparatively extremely lucky here. But sexually humiliating and objectifying women is the western world’s version of controlling and oppressing them.
We have such a long way to go.
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MJ, I’m glad you started off on the front foot with both a sexist and racist remark.
Personally, I believe if a person of any gender or race has a genuine problem we shouldn’t shut them down with angry rhetoric just because we may have our own problems we are dealing with.
As for calling men whinging, well, that’s the deal they face every single time they want to bring up issues they feel are relative to them. It’s a fairly typical charge from angry radical people to dismiss the problems of men because a few hundred of them have CEO positions or are democratically elected by the female majority of voters.
This study is an extreme example but is being made to look like a cross sectional view of societal trends, however the real metal of such a study is the socio economic and educative backgrounds of the men surveyed initially as education is the enemy of ignorance and these ignorant people in this loaded study which this article tout’s as “most people”.
With your feminist leanings, surely you understand that what a person wears has no effect on rape, actually, sex has very little to do with rape according to feminist theory, so these comments are either fairly redundant or rape is very sexual, either way some one got something wrong.
But my real question to you is:
Does the objectification of women have any bearing on rape if rape is a patriarchal form of anger and oppression not sex?
Surely human attraction is based on physical attraction to humans not attraction to inanimate objects. If you want real, genuine objectification look no further than prosthetic male organ sales with liken men exactly an uniformly to objects, rubber ones to be exact.
But whilst you are so willing to give “white” men a lesson on what it is to be judged on less than the character of their being, perhaps you fail to accept that men are just as likely to be judged on their looks by females and “objectified” as objects of earning capacity.
Several studies have shown that women find the amount of money a man has to be an attractive factor in her initial and ongoing attraction to him.
Is this really any better?
Is it really any better to be looked at as a walking ATM?
One could very easily say this is an insidious fundamental view of western countries and is oppressive of men.
But I’m pretty sure you wont, besides can you be racist to white people or sexist to men?
You probably don’t think so.
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Whoa, settle down there hidey horse. I will read the article again but I don’t remember it mentioning the socio-economic standing of the partcipants. Furthermore, you can crap on all you like about men being perceived as whingers, but women have been putting up with being demoralised for speaking out (and with more venom) for a lot longer than men, and besides, I think you’ve derailed from the original post.
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Yes, I shall settle down and let MJ (you?) have free range on telling me and my gender how it is and how we should act with completely impunity and lack of the opposite side of the story.
” I don’t remember it mentioning the socio-economic standing of the partcipants” – My point exactly, without this info, it’s beat up time.
” crap on all you like about men being perceived as whingers”
Roflmao
“crap on” – You said it, so I might have perceived it wrong..?
” but women have been putting up with being demoralised for speaking out (and with more venom) for a lot longer than men”
Okay and I’m sure they have and I would not call them whiners or whingers or crapping on, but that doesn’t mean men who have problems are whingers or are wrong and in fairness my response was to that claim, so I didn’t bring it up haphazardly.
“and besides, I think you’ve derailed from the original post.”
Yep, the comment about men being whingers wasn’t derailing, but my reply to that clearly was. Cognitive dissonance?
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Most of what you have written isn’t really relevant to my comment.
Read this:
http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/the-fight-for-equality-and-rights-and-why-the-faux-oppressed-whinge/
I say white men, because white men are the most privileged members of society, yet still seem to be outraged when someone points it out.
You need to go and do some research and get your facts straight on the MASSIVE gaps between men and women around the world in health, work, education, sexual violence.. everything.. before you start whinging about being a walking ATM.
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No I don’t need to do research, the research is there and I’m a busy hombre.
There is a huge difference between the western world and the third world and the problem is when you conflate the issues of the two to exaggerate the issues of one.
That opinion piece you linked to had no basis in validity in its complete absence of research.
You asked me to research health, work, education, sexual violence.. everything. OKAY.///
Health: Men live 5-7 years less than women, men suffer 70 of suicide deaths, men die of almost all major diseases at a higher rate. Even though men live shorter lives female health expenditure outweighs men’s 3-1 and up to 7-1 in some countries. Health research in female only areas is significantly higher.
Work: Men make up 93% of workplace deaths, men make up 90% of all labour positions, men make up 80% of all outdoor work, men only make up 23% of the service sector, ALL dangerous jobs are disproportionately heavily represented by men.
Education: Men account for only 42% of University enrollments and this rate is steadily declining, yet 95% of gendered scholarships are for females and this is growing. Menface gender discrimination in admission in compliance with female first admission place policies
Sexual violence: Men are the largest percentage of child sex perpertrators and also the largest category of rapists. Very disturbing, boys have a 1 in 6 chance of been sexually abused vs 1 in 4 for females, higher in other studies. Because this issues affects women it is VERY well known and does not suffer a lack of awareness, though I doubt any sane person would argue against even more awareness.
Again you brought it up.
Also you again charge the whinging factor.
You:”I say white men, because white men are the most privileged members of society, yet still seem to be outraged when someone points it out.”
Because you live longer, you have better, larger health facilities with more health research, you have more scholarships in university even though you make up 57% of enrollments which is growing, you have ministries committed to your health and welfare even though there are NO men’s equivilent and there are no specific laws ensuring any benefits to men’s welfare. You make 70% of all luxury purchases and control 80% of the western worlds wealth over your lifetime. The biggest studies on gender violence show women initiate domestic violence as often as men, but there are still laws that discriminate against men in domestic violence situations,.
Yet you think you can just say white men today in western society are privileged because a few thousand men have CEO positions and Government roles none of which they use to benefit men at all through policy or law, if you can show me a law or a company policy that does I’ll tattoo it on my forehead in shame. The hundreds of millions of men who are not CEO’s or politicians suffer problems listed above which many people think are equal to those of women you are welcome to disagree and say men have easier lives, but that is opinion not fact and statistics on health, work and education also back my views.
You can call the people who die earlier than than you whingers, but that doesn’t mean they are.
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“No I don’t want to do research, I’m too lazy & the results wouldn’t back me up”.
There, fixed that for you.
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Bit hard to respond when my messages get deleted, of course the rampant disrespectful abuse from you and your ilk is easily overlooked.
I said it before, but now “ill repeat it, I don’t have to do the research It’s right in front of me, and it backs up what I say, but frankly graveyard full of dead men aren’t going to change angry people’s minds.
Maybe Lulu the energy I lack in conducting research is in direct proportion to that of which you put into arguing against my response as opposed to calling me lazy at your unmoderated whim
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Clearly you haven’t done your research..
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Touche, that’s how you win an argument anonymous. Seriously why do these men come on here and try to stop the misandric, uninterrupted man bashing with their facts and think they can change the circle jerk?
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Clearly not too busy to post those extensive comments.
Btw, please provide links to studies proving your comments about controlling 80% of the worlds wealth over our lifetimes.
The reason men don’t live longer is that they don’t tend to look after their health as much as women. Possibly they don’t aim for tertiary spots as much as girls either. I’d love to know the reasons for these stats. Also more women attempt suicide than men, men choose more lethal methods to successfully commit suicide. Let’s not forget that.
Most of your stats I’d agree with and I think men’s issues do need more attention and funding, but instead of complaining on the Internet, do something positive about it. We’re happy to help….
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“Clearly not too busy to post those extensive comments.”
Clearly not having the time to research via doing studies was misconstrued as meaning not having the time to find it online, sorry if it was lost in translation and it makes your initial statement with its dripping sarcasm pointless. I kid, I kid. But seriously.
The study you’re looking for is in MassMutual Financial Group–2007 print which is not online, but you might find some excerpts if you care enough to look. It talks in detail about post asset wealth inherited wealth, divorce asset transfer and widowing. The major consideration is that in partnerships wealth is equal but outside of partnerships women actually owned the vast majority of wealth.
“The reason men don’t live longer is that they don’t tend to look after their health as much as women.”
No not at all, there are several reasons men die earlier and late health check ups is a small percentage of the reasons, but even it it was the primary reason and it was women who were dying it would a pretty brave person to say there wouldn’t be a huge government commission into why it was happening and mass funding to correct it, but alas these are males dying and it isn’t the primary cause.
In the western world there are 40 offices devoted to women’s health and 1 for men and that is in Canada. If you are a believer that government funded health care schemes actually contribute to good health then we have a single factor, but again not the primary factor. The majority of workplace deaths make up another small percentage, but that percent becomes far greater when you include occupations that include deaths from workplace as the cause such as outdoor work and slower work illnesses resulting in death.
Women checking health is systemic due to the fact that most will have regular checks due pregnancy and the larger numbers of elective cosmetic procedures which begs a moot point, but not quite. There is certainly room for arguing higher funding for awareness for men, but there is no men’s health department and no one pushing for one other than a small percentage of whingers who “probably had a bad divorce” to quote a couple of articles ago.
Complications from circumcision make a small number but the 35% increased likelihood a baby boy wont make his first birthday also decreases longevity estimations. Boys are 3 times more likely to drown than girls and are 70% more likely to be murdered by their mothers than a girl is.
There are many more factors none of which are choice laden, though some are but are not indicative of the 5-7 years men lose.
“Possibly they don’t aim for tertiary spots as much as girls either. I’d love to know the reasons for these stats.”
But if women don’t make up 50% of corporate boards it’s discrimination never ever choice. At the risk of crapping on and whinging above my privilege…
The overwhelming majority of gendered scholarships are for female even in a growing environment of female educative dominance.
Again at the risk of whinging in a response to a question and at risk of being banned for not complying with the men are evil women are perfect view of mamamia, I’d like to take the time to converse about your next statement:
“Also more women attempt suicide than men, men choose more lethal methods to successfully commit suicide”
That’s true and disturbing I actually know a girl who took her life years ago and saw the utter and complete devastation the family went through and can safely say death affects families worse than hospitalization, at least the hope is still there.
In fairness suicide attempt can mean taking 5 panadol and a glass of lemon juice. An attempt is not on the scale as taking one’s life and extreme perspective is need in its absolute form to discuss such things.
The fight men have to make suicide talked about is tough, but there wouldn’t be many men who wouldn’t be happy to see women’s suicide attempts get attention so we can bring publicity to a very serious problem.
The cry for help attempt has been shown by psychologists to be just that and 95% of the time was not intended to be fatal. That’s not me being flippant that’s actually what they call it in the profession the “cry for help”
As for complaining, I don’t appreciate men being accused of being privileged when most of their problems are different but huge. This whole page is full of complaining, but I feel lucky to be singled out.
My response was only to the previous accusations and taunts.
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Lol, men…always complaining, poor things, they can’t help it, nag, nag, nag….
Anyway. Where were we?
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I am not sure what to say after reading this.
Mamamia and readers talk a lot about girls and daughters and how to help them navigate the world of body image, self worth, strength etc (and so they should).
But I have 2 boys and things like this scare me.
I don’t want my boys to be people who say these things about women, or do these things TO women.
We talk about photo shopped magazine covers that girls look at and then think that they must be like that. I don’t want my boys to look at magazine covers and think girls have to be leg-spread, oily and busty to be sexy.
I don’t want my boys to think that if a girl wears a short skirt, she is asking for it and you can “go and smash her on a park bench”, she might just be hot.
The lad mag quotes aren’t funny or cool, they make me want to cry. The rapist quotes are quietly evil.
But, sadly, all of the men quoted in the men’s mags and the rapists all used to be innocent little boys like my 2 are now…
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Another mother of two little boys here. Articles like this terrify me.
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I have been wondering how I do this since I found out I was having a boy. My little man is only 7 months old and yet I’m already contemplating how I can teach him to have respect for women and not develop these disturbing attitudes. Would love any advice anyone has…
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You do this by making sure your husband and other males around are good role models for your sons.
You do this by treating them with respect as people and insisting that they do the same to you.
Give them love and applaud them when they do kind and wonderful things that boys and men do all the time.
It’s really hard in this climate where just having dangly bits makes you assumed to be prone to violence.
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Good points flutterby. And if there is no “husband” aka father around, talk to your sons about this issue yourself. I’m doing this with my sixteen year old son.
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I worry for my nephews. How can they develop a healthy view of women when magazines promote these views, and society presents women so poorly. I hate the whole raunch culture and dont find it ‘empowering’ as a woman. One only has to look at the latest Rhianna film clip or the cover of a Zoo Weekly or the fact that TV shows or movies often have complex or unattractive male characters and only super hot, women who contribute little to the story.
All the men in my life are amazing and do not think like this, and I thinkmost men would be disgusted by the quotes. But we are kidding ourselves if our raunch culture is not going to have any affect at all
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I have a son (15) and I am continuously saying to him ‘Women have pubes you know’ ‘women don’t look like that in real life’ ‘NEVER do anything to a woman she finds uncomfortable’ etc etc. I assume he’s seen these magazines or possibly looked at some porn on his grandparents computer (thanks to a single uncle who still lives at home and doesn’t clear the history). He gets sick of me saying it and goes red everytime but I don’t care. He must know what real life is like and it is up to me and his dad to provide him with details. (Yes I do secretly enjoy seeing his little face go red)
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You made me laugh… you sound like an awesome mum, Petal. I would happily date one of your sons and I would feel lucky to!
of course I will step aside I am more than 10 years older than your son haha
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I have 3 sons, no daughters. In my eldest (21) sons room, there are pictures of women from the lads mags (behind the door mostly so I don’t have to look at them as I walk down the hall) My son is gentle & kind and has more girls as friends than boys. He is going on a holiday with these girls soon but isn’t interested in a relationship with any of them. Exposing kids to this stuff probably isn’t going to ruin them, they are far more influenced by the way you parent, by the way your husband /partner speaks to you or the way they see their Grandad talk to Nanna. My eldest is from my first marriage and he is more like my husband (who he has lived with for 19 years) than his Dad. I know this stuff is out there for all to see, but I think we need to trust that our sons know the difference between glamour models and real women. Mine certainly seem to.
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Owwww, shucks, thanks Rose!
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If a guy is reading these kinds of magazines once the ‘thrill’ has gone, after a couple of years… like once they’ve reached mid twenties, perhaps they really need to think about what they are doing.
Aren’t these magazines aimed at horny 18 year old guys? they will say anything and everything to get a sell, so of course they are going to say stupid stupid things.
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I think these magazines should be banned.
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Absolute dealbreaker: guy that reads ‘lads mags’. Wouldn’t go there. Ever.
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I agree. A close girlfriend’s husband is 41 and still buys them. I don’t know how she puts up with it.
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Totally agree! I remember being 16 and seeing them in my new boyfriends bedroom and a FHM calendar on the wall. I told him they go if we are to continue dating. I won. So proud of myself now that i think back to it.
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Interesting. I picked nearly all of the lad mag v rapist quotes btw. as a mother of a new baby girl I find most disturbing all of the attitudes about ‘asking for it’ & ‘that’s how they like it’ & rubbish about how ‘they’ dress…although less an attitude as an excuse. Disturbing that such similar quotes in men’s mags provide such ‘excuses’. Don’t think am making much sense. Can sleep deprivation kill?!
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The park bench quote (no 12) was really disturbing. I didn’t pick them and I consider myself experienced at 44.
Years ago I read in Cosmo (I think) some safety tips illustrating the differences in thought processes between men and women. There were lots of them, but one was
You met a guy at a nightclub and end up kissing him
Man: I’m in, I’ll get laid tonight
Woman: I like this guy, hopefully I’ll see him again.
I’m sure it’s a bit different to the original article, but it’s been burned on my memory, because I was so shocked at the differences.
I’ve made sure to impress upon my oldest girl these differences when she was a teen. I also let my son know and will go over this with my 2 youngest girls.
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Yeah some people seem to see kissing as foreplay. My ex never kissed me unless he wanted sex, if I kissed him he thought I was up for it, but what’s wrong with just having a snog?
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I thought I had a pretty good idea about which quotes were said by rapists and which were from the lads mags – boy was I wrong!
That’s terrifying.
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I think a trigger warning would be good at the top of this article. I saw this a while ago. I think this hints at what a lot of other studies have shown, that who perpetrates rape is less about social class, income, education etc. and actually more about a strong belief in traditional gender roles (i.e. a sense of ‘ownership’ over women, that women’s main purpose is to breed or be for male pleasure, etc) or not. When attitudes relating to this sense of ownership/entitlement are normalised, that will inevitably have an effect on the psychology of both men and women and make fairly typical ‘justifications’ of rape seem more acceptable, and often therefore more difficult to persecute when a jury is present.
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Although all pretty disturbing, the difference is in the ‘Lads Mags’ they are just playing up for the ‘cameras’, probably the quotes made in a bar, half cut, with their mates around. I have been interviewed by media in that situation (didn’t make it to air). If this is what passes for science now, god help us.
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Craig, I believe the ‘quotes’ from the lad’s mags aren’t people being interviewed as such (though that may be the case with some) but also the way the mag’s editorialise and the language they use that they choose when setting the stories, to appeal to some men…
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I actually found the quotes from the lad mags more upsetting than the quotes from rapists. This is revolting, I hope this makes editors rethink the impact their copy has on people. theedit.com.au
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Agreed! I read the worst quotes and thought definately rapist as they were quite violent, but nope :/ gross!
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I want to have a shower and scrub myself clean after reading that.
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I’m speechless and disgusted! Sorry I have nothing more to say…
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