Here’s a possible paradox. Can you be pro-life and call yourself a feminist? How much about one’s religious (or lack thereof) background should be disclosed when offering opinions on social issues?
Does it matter? These are just some of the questions ejected into the public debate this week after a wide-ranging profile on self-described feminist and anti-abortion activist Melinda Tankard Reist was published earlier this month.
The Sunday Life profile had this to say on the controversial campaigner:
“Melinda Tankard Reist is a woman of strong opinions. She is also a woman about whom people have strong feelings. If you’ve seen her proselytise on pornography on TV, read her opinions on the sexualisation of girls in the newspapers, or watched her go after do-badding companies on Twitter or through her activist group Collective Shout, chances are you have a few opinions about her of your own.
She’s a wowser. A no-nonsense political crusader beloved by both teenage girls and their mothers. A religious conservative in feminist clothing. A brazen careerist. A gifted networker and generous mentor.
The Canberra-based activist, mother of four and author of four books is difficult to pigeonhole and impossible to ignore. Friend and collaborator Julie Gale, founder of the advocacy group Kids Free 2B Kids, describes her as “one of the most misunderstood women in the public arena”.
Reist has threatened to sue (but has not yet sued) blogger Jennifer Wilson who writes under the name No Place For Sheep for penning a piece that questioned the believability of the profile if its author had never directly questioned Ms Reist about her alleged ‘fundamentalist Christian’ influences.
Ms Wilson wrote:
“Demands that her lawyer, Ric Lucas of Colquhoun Murphy, the firm that successfully sued Bob Ellis after his Abbott and Costello book, has insisted I must not publish, in another attempt to bully, intimidate and control me. Mr Lucas does not want me to reveal to anyone what those demands are.
The two statements I made that offended Tankard Reist, according to her lawyer’s letter, are 1) I stated she is a Baptist, which he claims in the letter she is not, and 2) that I expressed my opinion that MTR is duplicitious [sic] and deceptive about her religion.”
It’s a background Ms Reist claims not to hide – that she is a Christian. She claims to object, however, to the allegation she is sneaky about it. Certainly, there have been passing references and chatter about her Christian roots for quite some time. Anyone who served as an advisor to the conservative Senator Brian Harradine for more than a decade from 1993 must surely jigsaw somewhere into that fundamental landscape.
But the central claim is this: is she misunderstood or does she misrepresent herself? Ethicist and author Leslie Cannold argued that it’s about full disclosure. How much we, as an attentive public, should be briefed before somebody opens their mouths with an opinion:
“The credentials of individuals and organisations provide us with important clues about the expertise and motives of those seeking to influence us. They give us the chance to evaluate for ourselves whether an individual or organisation’s contribution is influenced by memberships, affiliations or sources of funding and, if we believe it is, to adjust the weight we give to those views.
We put several questions to Ms Reist so that she might be able to answer the criticism directly. On the pending defamation action she had this to say:
“I am reluctant to give Wilson’s false claims further publicity. Her depiction of the claim is not accurate. The basis of my claim is for being called ‘deceptive and duplicitous’. I had really only wanted an apology and retraction. My lawyers believe Wilson’s actions to be strongly defamatory.
We are discussing next steps.
I don’t think people posting on-line should think they can get away with trashing and villifying others and be exempt from media laws governing slander and defamation. The law needs to catch up.”
Crikey penned a blog pointing out the ‘logical fallacy’ that anyone’s ideas should be exactly the same as their religion. Ms Reist herself has said in the past that she is reluctant to discuss her stance on religion because people tend to use it to ‘colour’ the rest of her work.
We asked Ms Reist the following. Due to the possible defamation proceedings, her answers were limited and we have not edited them:
1. How do you, succinctly, describe your worldview?
“My world view is based on a human rights approach to issues, especially as they impact on women and girls. The central value of my worldview is the dignity and worth of each human person and I try to uphold social justice tenets of equality, non-violence, respect for life, and solidarity with the marginalised. I try to assess each issue on its merit, informed by this approach.”
2. Do you concede that people wishing to analyse the advocacy / views of public figures might be in need of a disclosure of any vested interests? Like the pecuniary interests register of our politicians, with which you’d be familiar?
No answer given.
3. Do you wish to make any disclosures publicly or answer to your critics in this regard that you have not committed to full disclosure?
See Question 4.
4. One of the claims directed at you is that you are a ‘fundamentalist Christian’ and that this must necessarily colour your views on porn, abortion, sexuality and so forth. How do you respond to this?
“I have no denominational affiliation or church membership. I have found its easier for my opponents to label me ‘fundamentalist’ than to actually engage with my ideas and arguments. And just because someone with faith has an idea doesn’t mean they or their ideas should be dismissed, derided, and mocked on that ground alone. I like what Senator Penny Wong, says about her faith, ‘I suppose I think people have very different ways in which they express their spirituality. I have mine. It’s deeply personal, and it has sustained me at difficult times of my life’. I also think those who claim to have faith should try to make a difference in the world.”
5. Are you motivated by religion in your public life?
“I am motivated in what I do by the global suffering and inequality of women and girls and my work has aimed to make a difference in their lives especially.”
6. How do you resolve the apparent divide between being pro-life and a feminist?
“For me, being a feminist and being pro-life are consistent. Pro-life feminists – and some feminists who don’t identify as ‘pro-life’ – see abortion as a form of violence against women in a society that won’t accommodate women and babies, especially babies born in less than perfect circumstances or babies with disabilities, for example.
A growing number of feminists are questioning abortion as safe, simple and risk free. Research is also indicating that women have significant negative mental health outcomes after abortions. The UK Royal College of Psychiatrists has published a meta-analysis in the British Journal of Psychiatry finding that women who undergo abortions are 81% more likely to experience subsequent mental health problems. (Substance abuse increased 340%, suicidal behaviour by 155%).
I want to see an expansion of real choices for the women who want alternatives but can’t find them. That’s why I founded and am patron of a supported accommodation service for women who are pregnant without support.”
7. What else would you like to add to the debate?
“I’d like my work to be treated on its merits not on the basis of someone else’s label of who I am – especially those with vested interests in vilifying and silencing me.”
So on one side, Ms Reist and her followers are fighting the good fight. To others, she is a wolf in sheep’s clothing with a dangerous hidden agenda. An undercurrent of necessary anti-feminism due to her views on abortion. Jill Singer wrote in the Herald Sun today:
“The problem with her anti-abortion stance, though, is it runs roughshod over the interests of most women. It’s as if they just don’t exist for her. What about the legions of women whose lives would be blighted without access to safe and legal abortion?
Worst of all, in my view, is that Tankard Reist protests robustly if anyone dares question what it is that informs her strongly held opinions. Specifically, she gets very, very edgy if anyone dares suggest her Christian beliefs influence her opinions.
But how could such matters not be raised? After all, she gravitates to the conservative Christian Right of politics.”
This is a debate about feminism, abortion, female sexuality. All of that. And what we ‘need to know’.
And that, for now, is where the matter rests.
What do you think? Can you be a pro-life feminist? Should a person’s religious affiliations be disclosed in public debate? When?









Comments
308 Comments so far
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I have found MTR to offfer many valid arguments and thoughts and I am not a christian. my new knowledge that she is a christian does not take away from her arguments. it is not like owning shares that will rise in price… if reading her views make poeple turn to christianity..so what. Surely any person’s opinions are formed and informed by whoever they are… and two different backgrounds can lead to the same or different opinions. I dont get this issue from either side….
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I really truly do not believe it’s possible to be a pro-life feminist. If you are a feminist, you care about women’s choices – pro-life is anti-choice.
I wish people would get the idea that they personally can be against abortion FOR THEM, but still support the rights of other women to make up their own minds – if you can’t do that, you’re not a feminist.
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Seems to me she’s basically a hard core conservative who thinks (wrongly) that you need to pretend to have some progressive leanings to avoid criticism and be published in mainstream media. A very fox news view of te world. Anyone who is not pro-CHOICE is anti women.
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Sorry, haven’t read all the responses yet, but wanted to say that this is a really balanced piece, good work Rick.
I have a particular view of what feminism means to me and I don’t agree with MTR on a lot of issues, but it isn’t fair for me to say she’s not a feminist when she identifies as one, and works for what she genuinely sees as the betterment of the lives of women and girls.
I also agree with her that a some people dismiss her because she’s Christian. Feminism is a broad church and we won’t actually help our cause if we dismiss people out of hand because their beliefs are foreign to the mainstream movement. As weird as it seems sometimes when there are loud Christian voices talking about male headship and refusing to ordain women, there are plenty of Christians who identify as feminist and make biblically based arguments for female equality.
I’ve been thinking a lot about whether you can be pro-life and feminist and I’m not sure I know the answer. For me, being a feminist means that I support equality for all people (hence my support for gay rights, disability right and anti-racism) and don’t support things that harm other women. Hence, I don’t think you can actively work against women’s access to safe, legal contraception and abortion and be a feminist. However, clearly MTR sees abortion as harmful to other women, as she sees porn and prostitution and sexualisation of children as harmful.
I don’t agree with her, I think her approach is paternalistic and heavy-handed and I believe her efforts to limit access to abortion are damaging to women. I also think that religion is responsible for a lot of damaging attitudes towards women. But, I think she’s allowed to call herself a feminist.
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I tips my hat to you melissasavage, you have a way of of saying what I think in a more non-confrontational way than I do!
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I really enjoyed reading your comment. So articulate and full of empathy. We need people like you in politics!
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I think it’s possible to be a pro-life feminist. I’ve never thought about it the way Melinda explained it before. There are many women who would not choose abortion if society was more accepting and supportive of single mothers – particularly teens.
Reading about her accommodation service actually made me think that if I’d had an unwanted pregnancy I might have considered carrying the baby to full term and giving it up for adoption. I simply do not believe that that is a viable option for many girls or women today (carrying on living their lives – working etc. then giving their baby up and returning to single childless life).
I don’t really care what religion she is.
I don’t believe her stance on abortion or religion taints the good work she’s doing regarding the sexualisation of girls and women, and other worthy activism.
Perhaps her religious beliefs encouraged or helped form her strong opinions on these matters, but I don’t think she should be disregarded just because of our differing beliefs (or “misbeliefs”*).
*I don’t believe in any religion, and my opinions regarding many religions are not often positive. But I do believe in good people – regardless of their beliefs.

Especially good people like Melinda.
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Great discussions- I believe as MTR identified that what is needed in Australia is the ease of access and marketing of support services existing for those facing teen/ unplanned teen pregnancy. Then their choice is adequately informed with optimum information and education towards decision making. After my book about teen pregnancy was first released 6 years ago, due to national demand in people facing unplanned/teen pregnancy contacting us, unable to find out where they could be supported in continuing their pregnancy and schooling – we established the Not For Profit organization Brave Foundation.
transparent, relevant and local information is vital to those in this situation- it aids decision making and I believe is a whole feminist approach.
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Wow, thank you Rick. You have excelled yourself as a journalist yet again.
Whenever I hear Melinda Tankard-Reist mentioned these days, my heart sinks. On one hand, I think she has been unfairly treated by the media (think Q&A – for the record, I didn’t agree with many things she had to say in the porn debate).
On the other hand:
1. The fact that she worked with Harradine is a *big* red flag for me.
2. Whilst I respect her opinion about abortion, I don’t believe, in a supposedly secular society, that she has any right to impose her beliefs upon others whom are Non-Christian/Agnostic/Atheist….which ties into my next 3 points:
a) I suspect MTR has what I would call privilege-blindness;
b) Just because she doesn’t publicly align herself with any fundamentalist religion *now*, it doesn’t mean she’s not a fundamentalist, so, if she thinks she is a spokesperson for feminism/human rights, then she needs to be open about her religious beliefs, both past and present (I am struggling with this idea – it’s a bit “Crusader”, but my unease is real);
c) I REALLY don’t think she is Australia’s spokeswoman for “feminism”, in it’s many forms, because she *DOES NOT* speak for my feminist beliefs, nor does she speak for many of the feminists I know.
I am really uncomfortable about her pending legal action against Jennifer Wilson (and I have tried to be careful in my wording of this comment, for fear of causing any legal action against Mamamia – although I’m sure MM has legal people – please feel free to contact me or edit!
). And I’m not comfortable with the fact that there was at least one reasonable question left unanswered in this interview.
Finally, the thing that I’m MOST uncomfortable with, is the fact that she’s taking legal action againt Jennifer has negative repercussions for feminist discourse – oh, wait – is it religious discourse? And was the legal action a choice she made personally, or was it her media monitors? No-one else has asked that question, as far as I know…….But……legal action has a track record of closing down genuine debate, doesn’t it? I suspect this legal action alone is an act is an anti-feminist move in itself…..
*shudder*
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I wish I could like this twice.
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Well put.
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Nicki you wrote “” if she thinks she is a spokesperson for feminism/human rights, then she needs to be open about her religious beliefs, both past and present”‘
My first point is
Do people not have a right to privacy?
My second point is
Now I would assume Mia believes she is a spokesperson for feminism and human rights so does she need need to be open about her religious beliefs both past and present? Does Rick need to state his past and present religious beliefs everytime he writes an article or is this only to apply to christians and is therefore a discriminatory practice
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My beliefs are pretty well publicised here but if anyone wants to know, I’m a literal agnostic but theoretical atheist. I am progressive. I am pro choice, pro equality.
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Pro equality, unless the person in question happens to be a straight male, in which case they are just deluded ‘faux oppressed’ hey Rick.
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Not all of them. Same with anything really. But the men who pretend they have it harder than an entire gender? For sure.
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I have never heard anyone suggest that on hete, but I sure as hell have seen countless examples of coments being shouted down for suggesting men have issues too. It is like there is a fear of feminism and the gay pride movement losing their exclusive victim status. Anyway, off topic sorry.
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It’s strange isn’t it? I can’t abide the comments here when a male dares to comment on a feminist issue and gets shouted down the way some of you do. Sometimes it gets pointed out (rightly) that for someone who previously didn’t have rights to get them doesn’t mean an erosion of the current rights enjoyed by the current ruling group (historically men, there’s no way to get around that). But comments like the other day when Feminista said along the lines of “About time women have been oppressed for years, men deserve to cop it too” attitudes don’t help anyone and serve to alienate both moderate men and women further.
To be for something doesn’t automatically mean you have to be against something or someone else.
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Exactly. My piece was aimed directly at the those who think giving rights to women so that they may become equal somehow means they are being oppressed. It doesn’t. Equal means equal.
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Awsome comment Kris, and coversely, when male commentators try and point out issues relating to men, it does not detract from issues relating to women. Comments like ‘faux oppressed’ certainly suggest however that straght men should just shut up and accept any issue as it is.
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When someone such as MTR tries to shape public policy based on the imposition of their religious beliefs onto the public, then the public has a right to know what those beliefs are. If that means such person has to forfeit some of their “privacy”, as you call it.
Regarding your second point, neither Rick nor Mia have ever hidden their religious persuasions – nor are they ever used their religious beliefs to influence lawmaking. Apples and oranges, Catherine.
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Yeah MTR, because carrying on with an unwanted pregnancy is safe, simple and risk-free.
Please.
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Perhaps then we should look more closely at the way we label these public figures.
A blanket label (e.g. ‘feminist’) is always going to invoke the ire of people who think that certain beliefs may interfere with their ability to fulfill the entire title. Perhaps MTR should only wear the labels of (or society should only label her with) the causes she supports, like the sexualisation of women in the media, rather than assuming that supporting a particular cause means they fit into a broader category, and then we try to make that person fit the whole category/label, rather than just the cause they support.
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Ah yes, feminism, the fight for all women to be equal and be heard, as long as you only think what the sisterhood tells you that you should think that is.
I still say its time in this country to replace feminism, an entire movement that is supposed to be about equality yet that only recognises one gender, with a universal push for respect and the fight against disadvantage, wherever it is found.
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I heard someone say the other day (can’t remember who): “If you think women deserve to be equal, you’re a feminist.” I don’t know that ‘feminists’ take meetings or minutes but I don’t see anything wrong with wanting that. For them. For anyone whose not yet equal.
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I simply believe that EVERYONE deserves to be equal Rick. I am no so gullible to think things are still just so black and white in Australia these days.
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Oh dear, Wounded Bull, MTR considers herself a feminist, and so do I. Yet MTR and I disagree on so many things. Please catch up. There is no true equality whilst the unspoken rule of class is the elephant in the room. Just sayin.
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Oh the irony.
I consider myself a Christian and MTR is a Christian… but we disagree on a LOT of things.
I think people who are not Christians need to learn about the incredible diversity of the people who are labelled under that term… maybe then they wouldn’t be so dismissive.
E.G. – I am pro-life, but that doesn’t make me anti-choice. I believe that abortion is a very big deal in how it affects the woman AND the child, and should be treated accordingly – not as a convenient solution. I think that we should focus on education and support, so that NO ONE feels forced or pressured to do ANYTHING. I like what Barack Obama said about abortion – it should be safe, legal and rare.
People should be really careful before they try and force other people into labels, and judge them by the prejudices they formed about those labels. Most of the time, things are not black and white.
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I like what Barack Obama said about abortion – it should be safe, legal and rare.
Hilary Clinton made this comment.
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I hear you!
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In theological circles (and others?) the word is liberationist.
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I also find it very hard to reconcile Christian doctrine with feminism and am pro-choice. However, I’m a bit uncomfortable at the force of the attack against MTR.
I am an enormous supporter of her successful battles against the objectification of women and girls in the media and by unscrupulous businesses (witness the recent Cotton On ‘porno stationery’ campaign). I don’t agree with her position on abortion, but feminism embraces ALL women. I applaud her for having the courage of her convictions and it’s important that all women are allowed to air their opinions in an informed debate.
I wouldn’t be voting for her if she were a politician because I wouldn’t support a pro-lifer who was in a position to change the law on abortion. But she is a successful campaigner against the exploitation of women by big business and for that, she has my thanks and gratitude.
Let’s not waste time attacking eachother. Let’s focus on the real enemy; the people who make money out of the misrepresentation of the bodies of women and girls.
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See… This is what gets me, you say you can’t reconcile “Christian doctrine” with feminism… But which brand of Christian doctrine are you referring to? Their are millions! Doctrines are built upon interpretations not just of scripture but people’s entire world views that come from their particular point of view. There are groups of people that roughly agree on the same doctrines – we call these “denominations”, and sometimes different denominations can agree with each other, but when it comes down to it, if you actually talked to a lot of individuals who label themselves as “Christians” you’d find that that means something different to each person. You’d find enough diversity of belief and even contradiction that you’d be wary of using the blanket term “Christian”.
I was filling out the “National Christian Life Survey” and I had to pick TWO out of twelve “labels” to define my Christianity (including the option of “I do not identify with such descriptions”). Not only does each of the 12 labels they chose represent a completely different way of thinking about doctrine, combining two together instead of choosing one presents a different view as well. (and they only allowed you to choose 2 For expediency… Really people could combine 3 or 4). I chose “Evangelical Progressive”… which almost seems like a contradiction in terms unless you understand what those labels really mean. Based on what I know of MTR I couldn’t place her in any one of the majority “labels” of Christianty, but I don’t think she fits the “Fundamentalist” label. The fact that there is a debate about whether she should disclose her Christianity or not would lend credence to that. If she was a “Fundamentalist” she would be very active about informing you of her beliefs. The fact that she indentifies as a feminist would also point away from her being a “Fundamentalist”.
Knowing what denomination someone attends doesn’t always tell you much about their beliefs either – I attend a Baptist Union church but I don’t agree with all of their stated doctrines. I have run into many arguments about doctrines and beliefs, even with my own husband!
My overall point is that labeling someone “Christian” tells you very little about what they actually think and believe, nor could it help you predict their worldview… I think everyone should be taken on the merits of their arguments, not spurious labels.
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Ref. your last para, I’m talking about MTR and she’s stated clearly what she actually thinks and believes on this subject.
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Firstly, LOVE this blog. It’s helped keep me sane through my first year as a stay at home Mum (which I have loved but well…. we all know it can be a bit lonely!).
) I think Zoe the beautiful beauty guru might have some disclosing to do
))))) Free samples much?
Secondly, I would be a bit touchy if every time I expressed an opinion someone said “oh, you’re an atheist, so your view doesn’t count, or is less valid” instead of taking my opinion, arguements etc on their own merit.
Thirdly, why all the haters of prolifers? I will “disclose” I don’t have a “side” in this argument as I think both sides have valid points…. and why is that a bad thing? Why can’t people except both sides have valid points, why the banding in two camps?
Fourthly, and keeping it light
“The credentials of individuals and organisations provide us with important clues about the expertise and motives of those seeking to influence us. They give us the chance to evaluate for ourselves whether an individual or organisation’s contribution is influenced by memberships, affiliations or sources of funding and, if we believe it is, to adjust the weight we give to those views.”
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The banding between the two camps is because one camp (pro life) places a very serious risk to women’s lives, health and most importantly: their happiness. One only has to see what’s going on in the US at the moment, where women have to wait weeks for abortions, where doctors are threatened with death and sometimes actually murdered to see the dangers in allowing other people to mess with women’s lives.
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‘A growing number of feminists are questioning abortion as safe, simple and risk free.’ I don’t think abortion is portrayed this way at all. I went with a friend when I was younger and she was given a huge list of possible side effects, including death associated with any surgery. This was also the same when I had to have a d&c after a miscarriage (which is the same procedure) last year.
In any safe-sex talks given at school (I’m a high school teacher) with the school nurse, the risks of both physical and mental harm associated with abortion are discussed openly.
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Abortion is much, much safer, physically at least, than actually going through with the pregnancy and birth. It’s the most commonly performed minor surgery in Australia and indeed the world. It’s much safer than having one’s tonsils or wisdom teeth removed. D&Cs are rarely used for early term abortions these days; the common procedure is a simple vacuum aspiration, with a local anaesthetic injected into the cervix. It takes five minutes and really it could be performed in any doctor’s surgery, it’s that safe. The mental health risks could be much reduced if women are given easy, free access to non-judgemental counselling services before and after their abortions, and at least with Marie Stopes clinics, they are.
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Thank you, Lauren. I have had an abortion – and guess what: I didn’t have any “mental health” problems afterwards. I knew what was right for me, and I’m grateful for the support I had from partner, family, friends, and my medicos. Kudos to Marie Stopes.
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It’s such an over-perpetuated myth that abortion causes mental health problems. From what I have researched, mental harm usually only happens when a woman already has underlying mental health problems. Good on you for doing what’s right for you, I have friends who have had them who said that they felt guilty for not feeling guilty!
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Oh gosh, the “guilty for not feeling guilty” thing….I understand…..
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Every time I hear statistics about mental health issues and women who’ve had abortions I want to shake someone. How does one prove causation in these so called studies? I’ve been clinically depressed in my lifetime, but it had nothing to do with the fact that I had an abortion. What I do remember is an enormous sense of relief. Neither have I been plagued by any guilt or remorse, but you won’t hear about that in the data.
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Yes, I agree with you on that point. These studies that Miss Wilson takes her statistics from… is she picking and choosing based on what solidifies her stance? While I’m not saying that no woman ever has experienced mental distress or issues after an abortion, those statistics just seem really out there to me. Perhaps those statistics are ones pulled from studies about /forced/ abortions, and if that’s the case, then I can completely see those issues occurring at those rates. In the case of women choosing to have an abortion and having prepared for the consequences (mental or physical), no, I can’t see that.
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LaurenHC I had an abortion when I was a young adult and I had no pre-existing or underlying mental health issues. I did experience guilt, grief and depression because of my abortion even though at the time I believed it was the right thing for me. I am pro choice still but I also believe that women should be offered information and support, which doesn’t always happen. Just because some of your friends and Nicki had a different experience doesn’t mean that conflicting research can be dismissed as myths.
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Nicki, I’d say the fact that you have had an abortion is a pertinent thing that strongly colours your view of this topic. You should disclose that.
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Awesome, Lauren!
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Correlation is not causation. Yes MTR, I’m talking to you
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I have heard Ms Reist speak and found her emotive, dull and generally unconvincing. Her “I know what’s best for you” view is particularly grating. I don’t think anyone who states that they know what is best for all women (regardless of circumstances) can be a feminist. Her anti-abortion views are only a subset of this.
As a lawyer, I’m surprised she sued for what strikes me as reasoned criticism. No doubt there are far less reasoned and more scathing critiques on the Internet. Publicity stunt, anyone?
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Publicity stunt? Yes I’m wondering…..
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Minor technicality, she hasn’t actually sued yet….
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Anyone expressing any opinion should be required to give a full disclosure of all of their beliefs and the entire historical and social context in which they arise so that everyone can determine the value of the opinion by reference to their own beliefs. Oh, and also so that no one ever expresses an opinion again.
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Sometimes a contributor will post something that is perfectly said. Like this by Anonymous.
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I agree.
It’s like when writers enter a competition, the judges are not allowed to know the identity of the writer for fear that such knowledge should cloud their judgement.
It’s the same with an individual’s opinion on any given matter — if we knew their full background, we might not be objective in our reception of what they are saying on this particular issue. We would write them off…(which so many people do when religion is involved).
Same with court cases — past “crimes” (eg working for Harradine) should not be the focus of the current debate.
Finally, the intensity with which some people (ie Leslie Cannold) have pursued this story on twitter comes across like school ground tittle-tattle.
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Sonia, wow……where do I start? There’s a difference between someone expressing an opinion in a writers competion, and MTR:
A) She was someone who shaped our legal rights/responsibilities as a “policy analyst” for the Government, therefore she should have had a Duty of Care to think beyond her religious beliefs for the benefit of those who don’t share the same beliefs (because of the separation of Church and State), and
B) Someone, such as MTR, who acts as a spokesperson for *anything* publicly in the media, should be open about their personal beliefs/values, if consumers of media are supposed to have “freedom of choice”, otherwise there is an argument for false advertising.
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Quick note Sonia, to put your mind at ease; in criminal cases heard before a jury, past offences can never be brought up, as it will bias the jury and they’ll be more likely to convict based on the defendant’s past behaviour.
(I understand and respect the rule…but I wish the jury who found the guy who sexually assaulted me not guilty knew about his previous rape convictions.)
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I’m disappointed as to the vilifying tone of this piece Rick. What is this? A witch hunt? As a journalist – do we require you to fess up on all your beliefs and influences before we read your pieces?
My goodness, MTR is standing up for women (pretty much alone in the public spotlight) against a global $100 billion porn industry that doesn’t respect women, let alone treat them decently. Have you read BIG PORN INC? If you’d even glanced at the contents you will soon realise the gravity and seriousness of her cause. She is standing up for women and fighting for our kids – that when they grow up, may have the ability to naturally develop respect based relationships, uninfluenced by the denigration and mistreatment of women and the superficiality of Porn.
She deserves our respect and support, not to be treated like this.
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Vilifying? I’ve done no such thing. I gave MTR a chance to respond and she did. We discussed her answers. I provided both sides of the debate. I opened it up for what has so far been polite discussion.
Vilifying? I don’t see it.
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I can assure you cath, I know vilification when I see it, having experienced and studied media law & I can assure you this article is not vilifying at all. Good luck with that argument!
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I just reread it and I don’t see Rick vilifying her at all. He showed both arguments and is asking at the end what our opinions are. I can’t even see from that article what Ricks opinion is…..unbiased reporting.
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I used too strong a wording and take it back. I’m sorry.
You do, however, collate many strongly worded (baseless and inflammatory) criticisms without balancing that and representing any positive nature of what she stands for. The only (uncommital) positive comment from you is that “So on one side, Ms Reist and her followers are fighting the good fight”. What offends me is that all MTR does is “fight the good fight”. Why should her influences come into play? And if she’s doing something to positively influence society when so many people sit back and do nothing – why post pieces that attack her motivations?
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I’m genuinely confused. You don’t think the 14 emails MTR and I exchanged and the questions I gave her the opportunity to respond to aren’t ‘balancing that and representing any positive nature of what she stands for’. There’s a HUGE chunk in the middle where I quoted MTR without editing her responses. In context. I didn’t make up this debate – it’s been going for two days now – I just summarised it here. You might not like that people say she shouldn’t have influence and that is fine, but I have never said those things.
And the quote ‘so on one side’ is me paraphrasing one side of the debate and then immediately follow it with paraphrasing the other side.
Yours, confused.
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“You do, however, collate many strongly worded (baseless and inflammatory) criticisms without balancing that and representing any positive nature of what she stands for.”
Please demonstrate where Rick has done that, Cath.
And please feel free to “balance” the “positive nature of what she stands for” with verifiable sources, please…..
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Maybe not vilifying Rick, but it was blatantly obvious what you thought…. (still love your work! Don’t hate me!) – not vilifying, but not unbiased either….. (lovers! not haters!)
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And this one too is written by the same person as ‘Seriously’, ‘Jen’, ‘Sarah’ and ‘Tenielle’.
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haha thanks Rick!
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OK, I don’t particularly care which argument you are making but you cannot use four names to make it. You are ‘Seriously’, ‘Jen’, ‘Sarah’ and ‘Tenielle’ on this post.
That kind of deceptive use of multiple names does nothing to help your argument.
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Heh, thanks for confirming what I suspected, based on the fact that the same avatar was attached to every user name.
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Isnt pro choice about having the option to have an abortion or NOT to have one? You can be anti abortion regarding your choices. But why should others get to decide what’s right for you. It all about having a choice, nobody get to pigeon hole my choices
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The very thing that seems lost on the pro-lifer. Your unwanted pregnancy – your choice. No one’s marching you down to the local abortion clinic if you don’t want to, but would you mind stepping aside if I exercise that choice?
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Can someone explain to me why, when Jennifer Wilson received a lawyer’s letter regarding defamation of Melinda Tankard Reist, her first thought was to sit down at her computer and share it with 800 of her closest friends? And to then continue for days to engage in public discussions with strangers digging herself a deeper hole? Where is her common sense?
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Because threats from lawyers can be a vacuous attempt at intimidation masked as valid common law proceedings? It’s called vexatious litigation. I can’t say for certain that MTR’s potential suit is without merit but this sort of thing DOES happen.
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What if MTR’s lawyers didn’t mark the letter “Private and Confidential”, or some other disclaimer? The Law is a very slippery beast….
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Keeping such things secret adds to their power and isolates me. I chose to be completely transparent about a bad process that thrives on secrecy.
There are, as someone else points, out thousands of descriptions of MTR available that are really nasty, and one has to wonder why she chose me at this time. This situation needs to be played out transparently and that’s what I’m doing
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Jennifer, I read your original post on ‘No Place for Sheep’ and for the life of me I couldn’t see why you had been slapped with this law suit. I’m glad you went public and I hope you can see that you’ve got a lot support from people that think MTR should own up to a few things, as they have a direct influence on her position on issues like abortion. And if they don’t have a direct influence, then perhaps she should come and say that, too.
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Thank you for understanding, melmyers, I very much appreciate your comments.
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Um, Jennifer Wilson hasn’t been “slapped with a lawsuit’.
When a child is corrected, he or she often defends himself by saying, ‘But I have been doing it for such a long time and you didn’t say anything before’, or ‘But Jimmy has been doing it too’, as if these excuses should relieve them of being admonished. These reactions are childish, and not in a good way. Every mother knows the answers we give to children when they react in this way.
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I have been slapped with the threat of a defamation action as I already explained here. Twice now, actually, as I’ve received another letter of demand from her lawyers.
Challenging Tankard Reist’s views for a couple of years is not an offense of any kind. We live in a liberal democracy and we have freedom of speech.
So I fail to understand how you can liken me having exercised my right to free speech, and to disagree in the public domain, as in any way comparable with a child making excuses for unacceptable behaviour to avoid punishment.
You think I deserve to be punished at law for having the nerve to disagree with MTR and some of her views?
BTW I’d like to say that there are several things on which I agree with MTR. I have said this publicly many times.
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Feminism is about the liberation of women to be equal citizens in society. Anti-choice (I REFUSE to call them pro-life, since women’s lives mean nothing to them) enslave women into their roles as mothers from the moment they unwittingly become pregnant. I consider it an enormous insult that this woman claims to be pro-woman yet doesn’t consider us smart enough to make decisions about our lives and families. Her religion is her business and as an atheist I loathe it when religious people try to control the lives of others based on whichever 2000 year old book of desert scribblings that they choose to believe in (or are indoctrinated from childhood to believe in.) How dare she say she’s pro-woman when she believes that we don’t have the right to choose what to do with our bodies? The likelihood of substance use and mental illness is much higher in women who are forced to go through with unwanted pregnancies than women who choose to have abortions. 1/3 Australian women will have an abortion- look around you. I have friends who have had abortions and they struggled with it for a little while, but have come to accept their decision and the overwhelming sentiment was “I feel kind of bad about it but I know I made the right decision.” Of course some women are going to suffer afterwards, but the vast majority feel relieved after an abortion.
It’s such an oxymoron, a “pro life feminist.” Give me a break.
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Annd it doesn’t say anywhere in the torah/bible/qaran/etc “thou shalt not use contraception/have an abortion” either, does it? if we lived our lives by the holy books, we’re *all* going to “hell” aren’t we?
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PS: It’s telling that my spell-check recognised the bible, but not the torah nor the qaran……
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At my catholic high school, I had to do studies of religion, and one of the religions we studied was judaism. I quite like their approach on abortion, which comes primarily from the Talmud (rabinnical teachings and interpretations of the torah etc): generally they are against it. EXCEPT in the instance where going through with pregnancy would hurt the mother. This includes financial and emotional stress and pain. I like that in this case, thoughts are given to the woman involved.
I cannot stand anti-choice people who go on and on about rights and suffering and all this shit, when they deny women choice and freedom from the outset.
No, someone can not be “pro-life” and feminist, because, as others have already said, pro life is anti-choice, which is anti-feminist.
Lauren summed it up perfectly. (for the record, I am also an atheist)
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I am concerned by your view of women as powerless victims. I doubt there is anyone old enough to consent to sex who doesn’t realise that pregnancy is a possible outcome of their actions. Saying, ‘I didn’t want to become pregnant,’ and blaming someone else, is as silly as saying, ‘It’s McDonald’s fault I ate too many hamburgers and became obese’.
You state that women should have the right to choose what to do with their bodies and I think this argument may have some merit if abortion was merely the removal of the baby from the mother (or foetus from the woman). However, during many abortion procedures, the body of the baby is ripped apart and, if the baby is accidentally born alive, he/she is then killed. This is not about a woman’s control over her body, it is about killing a living child who is not reliant on her body for survival.
Please don’t bother to dismiss my comments because I happen to be a Christian. My response to your comments is based on your comments and not on your spiritual beliefs and I would appreciate the same degree of respect.
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I think your comments are a bit disingenous. You give the impression that a large number of abortions are performed late enough in pregnancy for the procedure to resemble a birth, and that the fetus is ‘ripped apart’. In fact the vast majority – over 90% – of abortions are performed within the first trimester. It’s nothing like a birth and there is certainly no ‘baby’ to be left to die afterwards. Neural developments mean fetuses are incapable of feeling pain until at least the 24 week or so of pregnancy, if that’s your concern, and less than 2% of all abortions are done after 20 weeks gestation.
I also find your comments about pregnancy and eating fast food incredibly offensive. The vast majority of women who want to avoid pregnancy use contraception. That’s what its for. Its also not 100% effective. That’s what abortion is for. Plus, accidents happen. Sex is great fun and obviously sometimes people get carried away. But show me someone who has never once had unprotected or imperfectly protected sex and it will have to be someone who has never had sex full stop.
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MTR hasn’t sued anyone, she has merely asked for an apology and retraction. Why can’t JW accept she made a mistake and, maybe inadvertently, published lies about MTR?
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Not merely an apology and retraction. JW has written in a comment on this article that she was requested to pay MTR’s legal costs.
That could be a significant amount of money. Bit more than simply writing “sorry” on your blog.
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yeah, the legal costs incurred if you choose not to apologise and retract the defamatory and untrue things you should never have said in the first place. Boo hoo.
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Do we expect all commentators on social topics to add a disclaimer to their views based on their sexual orientation, religious affiliations, or political bent? Should we?
All individuals have bias in their world-views because they are formulated according to experience, and every individual’s experience is different.
If a commentator expresses an opinion or point of view and can provide suitable evidence and logic to support that argument, what use does it do to point the finger and say: “But he/she is an X or Y and believes in Z! They’re biased!”
I’m not au fait with feminism, but am I right to believe that there is not one homogenous feminist theory but several? By all means, enter into a respectful debate about feminist issues, but don’t accuse someone of duplicity because they don’t apologise for other beliefs they may hold.
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When deciding policy, facts should win every time. Agreed.
It would be nice if everyone told the whole truth all the time, but people don’t. It would be nice if everyone stated their specific agenda on related topics, but people don’t.
Since it isn’t possible to check all the facts all the time, we need to think about the agenda of the source and how that agenda influences what they say.
Only the guilible take information in without making a judgement call on it’s quality.
Everyone’s experience may be different, but they are not all unique. It’s not a leap of faith to say that lots of experiences and worldviews do allign, and it’s not unreasoble for people to label those collective experiences.
Labels assist our internal processing. If someone is describing a questionable decision in a rugby league match to me and I know that they support one of the teams involved, I can adjust their claims appropriately and make a conclusion on what are the actual facts. Or I may dismiss it completely.
Labels don’t just help us judge, we use labels ourselves to broadcast our beliefs and agendas. If I’m writing an opinion about parenting small children, it may help my case to say I am a parent of small children or a long time carer, or a professional in a child associated role.
MTR is claiming the title of feminist while expressing an idea (that women should not have the right to an abortion) that is not traditionally associated with that title.
She is an opinionator. It is perfectly acceptable to want to understand the agenda of anyone expressing opinions, and it is perfectly acceptable for the public to want answers when labels and views and agendas don’t seem to quite match.
Does labelling ever fuck up? Of course it does! I could be completely wrong to dismiss that football team supporter’s account and that they were describing the facts with complete accuracy.
Doesn’t mean I was inappropriate to consider their agenda though.
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I agree with you, but I also want to point out that those labels are probably unhelpful just as often as they are helpful. We use them, like you said, as schema or tropes to understand the world. But that assumes that we have a good understanding of the world, and I’m not sure that I do. And naturally, I can’t speak for anyone else.
If MTR backed up her arguments with Biblical rhetoric, I feel that would be cause for incredible concern in a political setting. However, her views on this matter, although influenced by personal belief (whose aren’t?), don’t seem to be directly related to religious points of reference. This is where she differs from, say, Tony Abbott, I think.
She provides many other sound reasons for her stance on these contentious issues. If she doesn’t include religious content in her (very public) work, I don’t see why it’s particularly relevant. I don’t follow her work very much any more (my interest was piqued after Q & A), but she seems to tolerate criticism and debate well.
I can understand her finding remarks about a sinister hidden agenda or duplicitous motives offensive.
In a rambling, roundabout way, I guess I’m trying to say that not everybody who subscribes to her views is also a declared Christian.
The Christian = pro-life vs Atheist = pro-choice is misguided, as many commenters have themselves pointed out.
The abortion debate is fraught, emotive, and divisive enough without calling on religious perspectives. I think that MTR rightfully leaves them aside.
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We vigorously agree then!
If you see a few comments down, I also pull up Chelsea on the Christian = non-feminist idea (you even join the comment thread).
Even further down, my original comment where I state my opinion on Rick’s questions, I don’t even mention Christianity. I just disagree with her opinion and her description of herself as a feminist.
I guess my answer was simply to say I think that motives and agendas are very, very important things to consider when receiving any message – it would be awesome if everything was fact checked adequately by the media before the message is distributed, but often that isn’t the case.
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The only debate worth having here is how a Christian should be made to feel as though they need hide their beliefs in order to be respected in the political arena. Yet feminist’s, Muslims and others get the respect they deserve, and rightfully so.
Why is it that in traditionally Christian nations, Christians are now seen to be the only creed of which you are allowed brazenly ridicule and shame without any social repercussion. How did Christian become a dirty word? Fundamentalist Christian’s should be respected just as much as gay, lesbian, Muslim, Jew, feminist, Indigenous or any other.
The fact that 64% of Australia’s population are not allowed the respect they deserve in political circles because of something they believe in their private lives is quite distressing to me. Are we not a democratic nation? With state separate from religion? Why judge someone on legal matters from a religious standing then?
The same goes for Atheist’s of all kinds. You cannot demand respect for creed you live by without giving it unreservedly to all others.
If someone has a sound thought on a logical, legal, political matter then that thought should be respected for what it is. End.
Oh and hey Rick, I do read your pieces! Keep up the good work mate.
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“The fact that 64% of Australia’s population are not allowed the respect they deserve in political circles because of something they believe in their private lives is quite distressing to me”
Which 64% are you referring to? Because I don’t think 64% of the population are regular church-goers, never mind fundamentalist Christians.
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Hey buddy! I don’t have a thoughtful answer to your question, but I know from personal experience with my friends across that entire spectrum you just mentioned everyone can get along perfectly well if we keep our beliefs to ourselves and our respect for human beings well out in the open. Oh wow, I’m so lame.
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Totally agree!
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Well said!!!
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The day that fundamentalist [insert name of religion here] respect the rights of other demographics is the day that the rational world will quit giving them a hard time.
Respect has to be earned. It is not a right to be given freely.
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Codey Bloom, I don’t think the objection is about Christians privately observing religion. It’s about religious beliefs entering and influencing public policy in ways that affect the lives of others who do not subscribe to that religion.
And I don’t buy your characterisation of Christians as persecuted victims. Islam is currently the most vilified religion.
Meanwhile, I think all religions should be subject to scrutiny and critique.
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I wish I could like this more than once!
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Totally agree with this post – nails the whole issue in one.
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I’m an atheist and I don’t care what people believe in as long as they keep it to themselves. (As I do, except for when religion is being discussed)
My problem with religion is that people tend to use it to back up their own opinions, and try and force it on others- the abortion debate is an excellent example, where religion is used to invalidate a woman’s right to an abortion, whether a woman believes in that religion or not.
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Codey:
I don’t think Christian, itself, is a ‘dirty word’. I think that ‘fundamentalist’ is the dirty word — and I know many Christians who are appalled and abhorred by religious fundamentalists who pretend to speak on their behalf.
Indeed, take Margaret Court as a prima facie case… or Jim Wallace from the ACL. Each of these Christians has done a sterling job, in my opinion, of having moderate Christians shaking their head in disbelief about their viewpoints on things from same-sex couples to what Anzac diggers died for in this country.
I think it is more the fundamentalism that is turning people off — Christian and non-Christian alike.
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MTR has been pretty clear. Jennifer Wilson made false claims about her, namely that she is a Baptist, and is deceptive about her religious beliefs.
MTR then had her lawyer send a letter to JW asking for an apology and retraction. Seems fair enough to me.
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Even a quite google will tell you she regularly speaks at Baptist churches and is said to be a member of a Baptist church in Belconnen. Jennifer Wilson hasn’t made false claims about her religion or revealed anything about her that is not already in the public domain.
Which begs the question, why is she so afraid of people knowing? Most people are proud of their religion.
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This is true.
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I dont know MTR but I do know standing in a garage does not make one a car:)
I have been in Jewish synagogues but I am not Jewish, I have been to HIVPOSitive facilities but I’m not HIV positive
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“A growing number of feminists are questioning abortion as safe, simple and risk free. ‘
Straw-bloody-argument – who has been claiming it is simple & risk free? And how about referring to the negative mental health implications of giving birth, or are you taking the Tom Cruise position on PND?
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Feminist does not equal Doctor.
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Good golly why has Australia become so fearful of anyone who may have Christian roots. No wonder she would prefer to keep her personal spiritual life quiet when it obviously draws attention away from the good fight she is trying to fight. And to answer your question Rick – yes you can be pro-life and a feminist. I believe everyone has rights – women and babies. It seems more of a contradiction to say you want equal rights for women but then promote the idea of eradicating unwanted babies. Education and support seems to be more in line with a civilised, respectful society.
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With the rise of the Christian right and political Christianity in the US and sadly now here, we need to stand up for our secular society. Obviously all Christians aren’t right wing, but there are loud, well-resourced voices out there claiming to represent Christians and trying to impose their views onto our laws. I want to live in a free country where it doesn’t matter what I do or don’t believe.
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So Melissa you want to live in a free country where it doesn’t matter what you do or don’t believe – providing it isn’t Christianity. Right wing, left wing, tomaeto, tomato – it is all part of living in a free country.
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I dont know about her being the most controversial feminist but after listening to her on Q&A … she is certainly the most boring!
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I’m curious as to how Melinda Tankard-Reist can reconcile her feminist beliefs with her Christian beliefs when the modern church and the bible are so obviously anti-women.
Ephesians 5:22-24: “Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.”
1 Timothy 2:11-15: “Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.”
Doesn’t seem very pro-women to me.
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Steady on – just like the internet, you can find phrases that support anything in the bible.
Galatians 3:28
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
Sounds awfully feminist to me.
Christians can be feminists.
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I understand that Christians can be feminists – that’s not my point. I’m asking how MTR can reconcile the two standpoints, which seem in stark contrast to me.
I grew up in the church and one of the primary reasons I left is because women were often treated like second-class citizens. I found it incredibly frustrating.
My question was not a criticism, but a genuine desire to understand.
PS. That Galations quote I would classify as broadly egalitarian rather than specifically feminist, but that’s just a small quibble.
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I think it’s important to remember that “Christianity” is an extreeeemeely broad term these days, and encompasses many, many strains of denominations, sometimes in stark contrast to one another.
The next verse in line from the ones you quoted reads: “25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it…”
Im not a biblical scholar by any means, but I do think it’s important to consider verses in context. I see these verses as describing a reciprocal relationship of respect and love. The original Latin for “submit” means to present yourself to another.
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It’s admirable that the Bible encourages men to love their wives, but why do wives need to heed the authority of their husbands? Why, in the confines of marriage, does the bible decree that women are less than men?
Why can a woman not teach or exercise authority over a man?
These questions are off-topic, I know and I apologise. For the record I don’t agree with MTR’s stance on abortion. I didn’t need to know her religious beliefs to know that I don’t see eye-to-eye with her. I think it is entirely possible to view someone’s opinions objectively without knowing whether or not they go to church. So, I don’t believe she needed to specify in the Sun Herald piece that she is a Christian.
What I struggle with – and still have no answer to – is how she reconciles these two (Christian & feminist) beliefs.
Also, thank you for the clarification of the word “submit”. What’s the original Latin for “head of”, “submissive” and “transgressor”?
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I’m a linguist, not a Bible scholar, as I pointed out. And I don’t claim to know very much about feminist theory either.
But, without being snarky (!), I dare to suggest that some verses, when considered in cultural and linguistic context, may not mean what we think they mean plucked out of a complex ancient text.
And also that not every Christian has the same interpretation of the Bible or holds the same beliefs as any other.
I agree that the 1 Timothy verse seems way out of kilter with feminist notions of equality between men and women, but I am not qualified to say anything else about it.
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Hi Ber, I wasn’t being snarky and I’m sorry you read it that way. I was simply pointing out the deficiencies I perceived in your argument by applying your same logic. You felt I was taking one verse out of context to make a point, I felt you took one word out of several sentences to make your point. It wasn’t meant to be mean or personal, just a way of extending the discussion.
I realise now that I’m going to need to read more of MTR’s articles in order to understand her stance a little better and also do some reading about feminist theology, because I have a lot of questions in this area – like how can you just pick and choose what to believe out of the bible? – and the comment section on MM is not really the place to do all that.
Thanks for your input and that of other commenters.
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I don’t want to go into this much because I’m tired (thanks Mr 6 months) I assume you’re talking about Paul’s letters here? Paul had a problem with women in authority because he felt that they were teaching heresy and gnostic based beliefs. There were female deacons and leaders in the early Church who held positions of some power. Later, when the Church became more stratified, the men in charge became uncomfortable with this (because of prevailing societal attitudes, not God) and started to cut them down. In the Gospels Jesus appears to women first, before his male disciples, and it is when the men do not believe them that Jesus comes and chastises them. The women are the ones who stayed loyally with Jesus to the end. There are plenty of strong women in the bible. If you are interested radical feminists like Rosemary Radford Ruether and Phyllis Tribble are among many many feminist Christians re examining the bible in an attempt to reclaim it for those who are not white middle class men.
Sorry to waffle, I have baby brain, but it is possible to be a biblical scholar and a feminist!
PS Chelsea if you are really interested in finding out more about this topic feel free to email me!
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The new testament wasn’t written in latin. It was written in Greek.
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Er, your question is a theological one, and MTR hasn’t yet claimed to be a theologian. Many Christians reject the sexist implications of those particular passages, BTW.
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I am a biblical scholar. The Bible was written by men at a particular point in time, using words to describe something that is indescribable. Sure, anti-feminists can use it to deny us our rights, but in biblical tradition Wisdom is female and there are plenty of strong female characters. You can use the bible to support any agenda you like – I prefer to use it to help me move closer to God.
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MTR doesn’t hide her Christian stance, and I think that’s enough. After all, we are all influenced by our beliefs whether they’re about the big things (higher power) or little things (anchovies do not belong on pizza).
Frankly, I know a few Christians in high-ish profile roles who keep their views slightly under wraps – this is because of the stigma attached to being Christian.
MTR’s abortion stance is based on studies that show women can be adversely affected by their abortion, and I can see how that would be true. Unfortunately no one has done the research about women who proceed with their pregnancy. Personally I believe in choice, because women are smart enough to know that whatever they choose, it is a big decision.
Stop treating us like idiots. We can make decisions and live with the consequences. Women are not stupid MTR!
/end rant, sorry
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“What I find hard to compute is the idea that a feminist can be anti-choice – and actively lobby to remove choice from other women. That sounds anti-feminist.”
Exactly. How Melinda Tankard Reist can claim to be feminist and to uphold equal rights for women, only to want to deny women the right to choose what they want to do with their body is disturbing at best.
A feminist pro-lifer is an oxymoron.
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And there it is – “anti-choice” I was waiting for that one.
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Essentially, she is.
If she wants to remove the right for women to choose for themselves what they want to do with their bodies, then it is indeed anti-choice.
The fact remains that, depending on circumstance, many women either can not or do not want to have children. Removing their right to make this choice seems completely opposed to the ideal behind feminism.
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Just wanted to clarify: is the phrase ‘anti-choice’ the pet peeve?
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I have also heard MTR speak at a conference I was at. I agree with others that she is extremely passionate and I believe that she is raising important issues about the way women are treated and portrayed in our society.
I check in to her website from time to time – it can be quite full on at times!
I think its very reasonable to think that if a person has a faith that it will shape their views. I think this can be a positive thing. Whilst she certainly seems to hold views that are aligned with Christianity I would hardly call her a fundamentalist.
I agree that its appropriate to disclose your beliefs – but Im hardly scared by the fact that she’s a Christian or believe there is some sinister plot behind her campaigning – Please!!
Would there be as much hoo-ha if she were Jewish or Muslim or something else??
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If she was Muslim commenting on being a feminist, there would be hoo-ha alright, just from different people. Ditto if she was an Atheist.
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I think that you would find that there was much more hoo-ha to be had if she was Jewish, Muslim or another non-Christian religion…
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If she were Jewish or Muslim most people would expect her to speak on behalf of Jews or Muslims. If she declares she is Christian she is expected to speak for Christians.
I don’t know that we all look at it that way, but that is certainly how she would be represented in the media. I can see how she might not want the label.
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Imagine if a man claimed to support the rights of women but was anti-abortion? He would be eaten for breakfast.
To me, being a feminist = pro-choice. I think it is fundamental to women’s rights.
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I am not a Christian. Actually I’m an atheist. I’m a feminist. And I am pro-life.
This is practically my ‘coming-out’ as being pro-life although it’s still relatively anonymous. Because its not something I discuss. Only my husband and a few close friends know of my position. Why? Because I know the second you come out as pro life the debate goes south. Everything you have to say as a feminist, about the rights of women or the rights of children is instantly dismissed and your regularly painted as crazy. I think people find it very difficult to believe that anyone can be pro life of they are non religous but there you have it. I also know Christians who are pro-choice. It is ridiculous to suggest that once you know someone’s religous persuasion you can know their motives for this or that.
Feminism I believe is the belief that women and men are equal in every way and have the right to be treated so. You can believe that and still be pro-life. They are not mutually exclusive. It is the constant listing of the things required to make a feminist that has turned feminism into the new ‘F-word’. There are feminists who are pro-life, and those who are pro choice, some think pornography is empowering others think it is exploitative and harmful- there are loads of debates happening between feminists all the time but that doesn’t mean we need to start revoking feminist club cards. It’s not an exclusive society. It is ok to have debates amongst each other, to have issues not yet solved and still hold common the belief that women and men are equal and to work towards that.
I have long thought that the abortion debate gets no where because of all the mudslinging. At the end everyone’s dirty and nothing was achieved. It is ridiculous to suggest that pro- choicers hate babies, or are murderers. It is also ridiculous to suggest that pro-lifers are religous nut jobs, hate women, or are indeed against choices.
Here is my stance- I believe that we have a choice. That choice is whether or not to have sex, whether or not to use contraception, how to use that contraception, and whether or not to use the morning after pill if for some reason that contraception fails. Sometimes sex results in babies, we know this and I believe that each time we have sex that is a risk we choose to take, an invitation of pregnancy is what your looking for. There are loads of ways to prevent pregnancy and if contraception is used as directed it rarely fails. I also believe in life at conception. I believe that once the egg and sperm join all the potential for an absolutely unique life is there. From the moment of conception the child is an individual and therefore should be afforded rights. In the rare event (and it is very very very rare) that the life of the child threatens the physical life of the mother then abortion is necessary- like triage, the most viable life is saved over the life doomed by the loss of the mother. I do not believe abortion is appropriate under any other circumstances. I am not a mother blamer. Like Ms Reist I believe that’s societies call, that we don’t hold fathers to their responsibilities as co-creaters, that adoption isn’t easier, that unwed mothers are so ostracized, that schools make it near impossible for mums or pregnant women to study and that we pretend collectively that the embryo or fetus is just a collection of cells and not an individual human being.
And did I mention I’m a feminist?
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I am very much pro choice, but Emily I really like the way you have explained your reasons behind being Pro Life. As women and feminists we have to take birth control into out own hands and be smart about it. If a mistake happens it is up to the individual on how to deal with it but, i agree society needs to change the way it deals with unplanned pregnancies. Better support networks, less stigma etc.
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Oh my gosh I completely agree! Thank you!
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I agree with all you have said Emily
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Not everyone who has sex chose to do so…..
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Emily, I love the way you have articulated this. I agree that linking abortion directly to religion and/or feminism is a key factor in why it’s a subject rarely discussed… rationally at least.
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” I believe that we have a choice. That choice is whether or not to have sex” Seriously?? Does the rape victim choose to have sex?
” I believe that each time we have sex that is a risk we choose to take”
The word CONSENTUAL is sorely lacking in this statement Emily.
I too am responsible for choices I make while having consentual sex, but
if a woman does NOT choose to have sex but sex is forced upon her anyway, how is a possible pregnancy her choice?
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Do you see Cate’s comment below? That’s how you respectfully ask the question you’ve very rudely asked above.
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I respect your right to your views and your confidence in expressing them here. I’m wondering your views about abortion when the birth is the result of incest of rape? I’m not trying to be snarky, just genuinely interested.
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Thanks for asking so respectfully Cate, it’s another common occurrence in the abortion debate to be instantly told your against the rights of rape and incest victims. Some circumstances of pregnancy are certainly less than ideal and indeed tragic in these cases. The ason I didn’t discuss them above is because although the abortion debates often centre around these types of situations the reality is most abortions being performed are not under these situations ( although there is of course a chance it is under reported by the women seeking abortion).
If a woman reports a rape she is provided with the morning after pill, if she fronts to a hospital she will be provided with it, a gp can prescribe it, or a quick interview with a pharmacist and you can obtain it. The morning after pill taken as directed within 48 hours will prevent pregnancy. This is perhaps why there aren’t droves of rape victims seeking abortions, emergency contraceptives are available and usually provided or else wise taken. Of course that isn’t the be all and end all, there will be circumstances where In a woman’s trauma she does not think about emergency contraception, or where (particularly in the case of incest) she is too young to understand or know about emergency contraception ( and this is most certainly a failure of our education system!). In the event that the emergency contraceptive safe net fails and a woman finds herself pregnant via unwanted sex it is tragic and I believe she should have every psychological support necessary in order to see the pregnancy through, and then an adoption if raising the baby is not something she wants. It’s definately a really tricky thing and its by no means clear cut, it’s a section of the debate I certainly continue to debate myself, but first and foremost I do believe that the embryo is an individual and deserves rights regardless of the method of conception. One terrible wrong doesn’t make the next acceptable. Its both miraculous and burdensome that women Only can bear children, but I don’t think that ‘evening the grond’ with abortion is the way. Better access to contraception, better rape prevention, and more onus placed on dads (only where sex is consensual of course) is what I’d like to see.
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You have articulated this beautifully and respectfully Emily. Thank you.
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Emily, your ability to write an eloquent piece does not mean that it is valid. I’ll give you a little science lesson here: all hormonal contraceptives, including the ‘morning-after’ pill may have abortifacient mechanisms. Hormonal contraceptives, in addition to other mechanisms (ie ovulation inhibition) weaken the lining of the uterus, making it difficult/impossible for a fertilised egg (at the stage of implantation, a trophoblast) to implant. This means that every time a woman takes her pill, or decides to get a long-lasting hormonal contraceptive (ie the hormonal IUD or Implanon) she is consenting to the possibility of a fertilised egg dying inside her. Therefore, since you believe that life begins at conception, all hormonal forms of contraception are akin to abortion, including our ‘choice’ to take the morning-after pill.
So let’s take a step back here. Your own logic means that we must eliminate all hormonal forms of contraception on the basis that they may allow conception but not implantation, which means that if such a circumstance occured, the little baby will die. Lets cross all of them off the list. What are we left with? Condoms, copper IUD, diaphragm and cervical cap. Did that list include the morning after pill? Nope. If the condom fails, you’re screwed, because it might just murder an itty bitty adorable baby.
The vast majority of women who fall pregnant were using contraceptives at the time.Their effectiveness is always only if used correctly. Condoms break. I had them break three times last year. (and I took the morning after pill twice, bad Lauren!) Vomiting and/or diahhorea and antibiotics may affect hormonal contraceptives. Missing a few days of the pill here and there may happen- life’s busy, especially for women who already have children- and some 60% of women who have abortions already have children.
I also point out that it is not that rare that a pregnancy endagers a mother’s life. I would have to have an abortion if I fell pregnant because I am an epileptic and my medication is highly sensitive to hormones which means that if I fell pregnant unknowingly- and it usually takes about five weeks before a woman realises she is pregnant- I would start having seizures again. You might not think that that’s risking my life, but if I had a seizure while swimming I’d drown, if I had one while driving I’d crash… you get the picture. Not to mention that my medication can cause terrible birth defects.
I have other friends with epilepsy in similar circumstances. Lets take a stroll through some other reasons why a woman’s life might be endangered; diabetes, high blood pressure, blood clots, depression and/or anxiety… are these rare conditions? Nope. Women with these conditions can fall pregnant if it’s planned and monitored by doctors, but we are all at lethal risk if we fall pregnant unexpectedly. It’s not very very very rare.
I only agree with you on one point- adoption is too hard in Australia. However public high schools and universities are of wonderful assistance to mothers and (especially the universities) are wonderfully supportive.
Emily, if you take away a woman’s right to choose- if you believe that we are enslaved by our bodies and by embryos, if you believe that we should only have sex when we’re absolutely sure that we won’t fall pregnant (which is never, unless you’re trying for a baby) then you’re restricting women’s freedoms and you’re placing us right back in the kitchen/household. If abortion is not valid in any circumstances other than maternal health, then you leave a hell of a lot of dreams shot to pieces, you leave women who can’t afford any more children with more children, you leave women and their familes in poverty and misery. Of course there are happy endings! Women who don’t plan pregnancies go through with them all the time and are wonderfully happy with their unplanned but much loved children. But there are terrible and sad endings as well. This includes women sticking pencils up their cervixes, women giving birth in secret and dumping their newborns in a haze of fear and depression, very very young mothers, rape victims… you get the picture. The world isn’t all sunshine and happiness, with plump pink bundles placed into the loving arms of glowing new mothers. Abortion is a necessary, legal service. Women such as myself, who will face chronic health problems if we fall pregnant, should not be prevented from sex. Women’s fates are not decided when they fall pregnant. That’s called feminism.
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Ok firstly thanks for the compliment on my eloquent writing what a nice way to start such a condescending response.
it is you not I that feel include emergency contraceptives (et al.) with your definition of abortion. I don’t. My understanding is that most of those methods prevent conception by preventing an egg from being released, I’m not sure whether or not they make the uterus ‘inhospitable’ regardless I do not consider them a from of abortion, I do not think this interfers with my belief that life starts at contraception. I consider contraception a reasonable and sensible choice. Like you said contraceptives fail when used incorrectly. Condoms mostly break if they’ve been put on incorrectly or if they are out of date. The pill isveryclear on its effectiveness and reccomends how to deal with circumstances in which it could be less then effective.
The fact that most abortions sought have nothing to do with maternal health came from a scientific revue which was written by an abortion doctor in a very pro choice way. I wish wish wish I had a link so I could refer you there but I’m sure you could find it for yourself if you early wanted to. And I did specify that in the even of life threatening maternal health I believe abortion should be available.
My pro life stance has nothing to do with being against choice and it sure as goodness does not quash women’s dreams as you have so ‘eloquently’ put. Firstly contraception ( but we’ve already covered that one) secondly adoption is an actual option if you get pregnant and you do not want to raise the child. Pregnancy sucks for sure but it’s 9 months as opposed to the babies entire life. Pregnancy and childbirth will not end dreams and prevent you from acquiring your life goal, and neither will child rearing for that matter if someone were so inclined to keep an initially unwanted pregnancy. I completely agree that women’s fates are not decided when they get pregnant- adoption is an option and being a mum of that’s your path doesn’t prevent you from fulfilling your path anywhere else. I never suggested it was all sun and roses, no ones denying this is a damn hard issue- where you fall I think almost always depends on how you consider the unborn child. I consider the foetus to be an individual with all the rights accorded as such.
Feminism is about equality, my belief in the rights of the foetus does not impinge on my ability to be a feminist. Reproductive rights are a big part of feminism for sure, things like easy access to cheap or free contraceptives, progressive consent and protection from rape, I believe that it’s a woman’s right to choose if and when she wants children and that her husband, family, partner cannot dictate that for her- I just believe it can be done with out infringing on the rights of another. Namely the child in question.
Your response I feel is the exact reason that the abortion debate is so impossible to have. You chose to utterly ignore what I had said and decide for yourself what I thought. In your first paragraph you stated what I believe when I had clearly stated otherwise. You then go on to accuse me of expecting you and your friends to die or be seriously injured for the sake of an unwanted pregnancy- things I clearly outlined against in my post. And the the woes of the world are all my fault and I personally am sentencing the women of the world to all kinds of terrible fates. It is a shame the discussion seems so hard to have point-point rather the. Getting into all the mudslinging.
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I think you’re kind of clutching at straws.
You either accept that women are capable of making their own choices, or you don’t.
You’re not a feminist.
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Unless there is a newly formed organised society of feminists in which you are membership officer I am pretty sure I am. Women are perfectly capable of making their own choices and nothing in my discussion above suggests otherwise. most pro-lifers are about as anti-choice as most pro-choicers are against life. It’s a pretty ridiculous suggestion.
If we all going around revoking F-cards because we don’t agree on this or that we are hardly about choice are we? I’m about equality and that makes me a feminist whether or not you choose to agree.
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Would just like to point out two things:
1. The main action of oral contraceptive pill is to put the ovaries “to sleep” so eggs are not released. There are two minor actions of thickening the cervical mucus which prevent sperm swimming much, if at all, and a thinning of the lining of the uterus to support a pregnancy.
If an egg is released, the chances of sperm actually getting to it are very low. However small the incidence is of a fertilised egg dying in the body, it is true that, in theory, it could happen.
It is also true that high reliability of the OCP is based on eggs not being released (and fertilised) not the much less reliable minor anticontraceptive actions of thickened mucus and thin uterine lining. This needs to be seen in perspective.
2. The morning after pill is effective for up to 72 hours post-intercourse with efficacy declining as time after intercourse increases, so it’s best taken as close to the time of intercourse as possible.
If you have any concerns, contact your sexual health clinic, GP or nurse advice line. I’m a registered nurse. I’m neither pro-MTR nor anti-MTR but information for women to make choices on is important.
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Thanks for posting this, I thought that was more like it but wasn’t positive on the facts. I remember reading an article a long while back saying that misconceptions surrounding what the morning after pill really does had caused a rise in unwanted pregnancies. A lot of girls had been misled to believe it constitutes a medical abortion and so had been reluctant to take it. Thanks for clearing that up.
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This! This is an excellent and eloquent response! My 14 year old daughter has Type 1 Diabetes (has had it since she was 6) and I am horrified at the thought her reproductive choices could be limited by people such as MTR. She is a trojan horse for the religious right to reignite the ant-choice debate – her personal beliefs absolutely inform everything she says and does in the public arena and if she had a single grain of ethics she would come clean on this. The best thing this stoush has done is shine a harsh bright spotlight on MTR’s anti-abortion stance and her paternalistic, privileged attitude to women’s rights. I have commented earlier in this thread on why I believe this and I don’t want to be boring and simply keep pasting the same comments in response.
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Um, ideal world and all that.
I like the way you’ve expressed your views, but some things just aren’t that simple.
The only thing I want to say really is that until you’ve faced an unwanted pregnancy yourself — and judging by your post, I get the feeling you haven’t — you’re not really in a position to judge whether “abortion is appropriate”. Every woman’s circumstances is different and she’s the best judge of whether she can go ahead at be a mother at the point in which she finds herself pregnant.
The fact that you believe life begins at the moment egg and sperm hold hands is just that – your belief and if that is how you view things, then wouldn’t advocating the morning after pill would fly in the face of all you’ve just said?
So that was more than one thing, sorry.
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Not that I think it is entirely relevant but I have had an ‘unwanted’ pregnancy although it’s probably better called a ‘very big surprise’ pregnancy because it wasn’t unwanted. ever. We lost that baby (our first) to miscarriage at 16 weeks so I can’t tell you how that one turned out for me. I’ve had three babies since then though (all planned). I was in a stable relationship at the time, we both worked full time, and I was also studying full-time, we were about to embark on a trip to London when I found out I was pregnant, so the circumstances were less then ideal, but we were both happy though shocked when we discovered it so I cannot speak personally I suppose from the perspective of someone with a truly unwanted pregnancy. I don’t think though that we can limit our opinions and ideas to only issues on which we have had raw and personal experience lest very few people have opinions on anything.
I’ve also had a lot of close friends deal with unwanted pregnancy. Some who went on to terminate and others who had their children. I would never deign to judge another woman’s circumstances and I do not believe for a second that unwanted pregnancy could ever be easy and there is a clear lack of resources in the community for that eventuation which needs to be addressed.
If you check out Susan as Well’s comment above it describes how the morning after pill works which was about what I thought and is definitely something that I think should be demystified and more widely available to prevent women from finding themselves in positions in which they fell abortion is their best option.
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I’m not sure about Tankard Reist… and I do feel that being fundamentally religious could impact your judgement on particular topics. However, I don’t belief non-extremist faith or belief in God, for most people, rules their entire way of thinking. I am not an atheist, but my spiritual beliefs do not in any way shape my personal values or in particular, my social/world/humanity views. I definitely think you can believe in God (divine power/mother nature/higher being etc) and be a feminist. As for being pro-life and a feminist – I think that’s possible too providing you support the choices of other women to NOT be pro-life. Ie. you might not personally choose that path but support the right of other women to choose it.
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Jill Singer’s response was exactly what I was going to write about her stance on abortion. We are all for more options for women who chose to keep their children, and I’m especially for more support for carers of disabled children (which are finally making progress in Australia). And I felt plenty of guilt following a late term abortion on my son, my wife too, so I’m concerned as anyone about the effects of abortion on mental health. None of that means women can’t chose abortion.
I’ll add that I believe a feminist can have a preference against abortion – of course they can! What I find hard to compute is the idea that a feminist can be anti-choice – and actively lobby to remove choice from other women. That sounds anti-feminist.
Also, while I don’t think people need to preface any comment with their religious affiliation it is interesting to note that all her stances line up completely with the far Christian right. Sounds like cause for a legitimate line of questioning there. And if someone asked me how being an Atheist influences my ethical stances, I’d be happy to discuss it.
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I’m with you on this
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You put it so well, An Idle Dad. Here here.
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I think a feminist can be whatever she wants to me. There aren’t any rigid criteria to be met before you can call yourself a feminist. I mean, there are some feminists who believe that we live in a “rape culture” and believe that women are conditioned to be submissive to men by society (see comments ont he story MM ran awhile ago about the man whose girlfriend didn’t really want to ‘do it’ the night before and he didn’t realise because she didn’t say aynthing). I certainly don’t believe in that, and there are many feminists who don’t – so they can’t all be confined to a neat category!
MTRs opinions are her own – doesn’t mean that I will be influenced by them.
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I have to say I’m not comfortable with labeling women of any faith as conservatives and therefore not feminist. I’m also not comfortable with labeling women, who aren’t working on behalf of a faith-based organization as – ‘wolf in sheep’s clothing’. There are a number of women who are activists or work on behalf of the marginalized (women, children, poor, refugees, gay etc etc) who align their personal beliefs with a particular faith, or even lack thereof but are capable and qualified to do so whether it’s professionally, legally or just as a voice.
Are we going to ask all psychogists or doctors of their spiritual persuasion and judge their ability to treat us? Poppy cock! They are aware of their beliefs and also their work.
MTR is highly outspoken – agreed! I’ve heard her live, and like many activists is very passionate. But her spiritual persuasions shouldn’t nullify her claims that she is a feminist. Nor should she have to broadcast it in her bio. If she was working on behalf of a Christian organization, then yes! Especially if she was providing a service such as a course in schools because individuals have the right to know what is being taught and why. But here MTR is working on her own on behalf of women she believes need a voice.
If you do t think she represents your voice, then say so but her spirituality isn’t relevant, much like the fact that ppl who fight for refugees don’t need to provide whether they’re family were refugees at one stage.
Seems rediculoys to me!
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I run a weekly feminist program for community radio, I’ve interviewed Melinda a number of times about issues of body image, sexualisation of women in the media and a number of other issues. I’ve always found her to be well informed and extremely intelligent. She works tirelessly for the rights of women and girls. She founded “collective shout” which is a group that advocates for women’s rights. She IS a feminist, and a dedicated one, regardless of her views on abortion.
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MTR says: “A growing number of feminists are questioning abortion as safe, simple and risk free. Research is also indicating that women have significant negative mental health outcomes after abortions. The UK Royal College of Psychiatrists has published a meta-analysis in the British Journal of Psychiatry finding that women who undergo abortions are 81% more likely to experience subsequent mental health problems. (Substance abuse increased 340%, suicidal behaviour by 155%).
I want to see an expansion of real choices for the women who want alternatives but can’t find them. That’s why I founded and am patron of a supported accommodation service for women who are pregnant without support.”
I have seen this argument structure before. Meryl Dorey makes it in relation to her anti-vaccine crusade. I am now more skeptical of MTR than before. Maybe someone would like to run MTR’s numbers, and find out if they say what she says they say?
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Rick, did MTR provide the specific source of this information?
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This reminds me of a friend of mine who was featured on Australian Story on the ABC for her works. She was most frustrated that the interviewer was pushing again and again to get her to say that she undertook her good works and held her views because she was a Catholic. She felt that being a Catholic was not a prerequisite to doing what she did, and that anyone, with or without any faith could have done what she did.
I think that our faith background does contribute to who we are and how we view the world, but so does myriad other issues, from the job your parents held, to your experience with your first boyfriend. Does everyone need to write an autobiography before publishing an opinion? Singling out religion to me indicates and encourages bigotry – “oh, I can’t trust that guy’s opinion on banks because he’s Jewish” anyone?
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Well said.
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I think anyone who has a public opinion should be open about their belief systems and open about how they arrive at their world view.
I’m an atheist, a sceptic and believer in the scientific method. These all influence my world view.
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Ditto JJ. Ditto.
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Another feminist do-gooder? Just what the world needs? I think not.
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Really?
As long as we’re doing good, does it matter whether we’re feminists?
Or are you saying that she’s not ‘doing good’?
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Women are a diverse lot – so it is hard to see how one political stance (being anti-abortion for example) can be described as being exclusively against the interests of women, or exclusively for the interests of women. Feminism is about equity of opportunity, and not about imposing ‘one size fits all’ solutions onto people. I dont agree with Ms Tankards position on abortion but her having it doesnt make her anti-feminist in my view. Similarly, while I dont understand why people need gods in their lives, her religious affiliations should not be the basis on which the merits of her social opinions are judged, as long as she can back up her arguments with things other than religious dogma.
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A person’s religious affiliations should most definately be discussed publicly.
Not all the time and for everyone, but if they are in politics or run foundations etc, then yes.
I think this is justified because so many politicians don’t know how to seperate their faith from the rights of everyone else. See: Tony Abbot.
Also, what’s up with some people (such as Ms Reist) thinking abortion is a last option? An act of violence against women? Please.
Sometimes it’s just what a women/girl wants. That doesn’t mean that don’t take it seriously or won’t have emotional issues that need to be dealt with afterwards. It just means it’s whats best for them.
I had a pregnancy scare when I was 17, and know I would have had an abortion. But I was terrified. A close friend said to me “You want it that way because you know life will be better if you don’t keep it. For everyone.”
My abortion isn’t your choice!
Also, key word here scare. THANK GOD.
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I would consider myself a feminist, and I am a Christian. However, while I believe my faith may inform my choices about my own body, it does not provide me with sufficient justification to condemn someone else for theirs. I am pro-choice, because I believe that is a human right, but I agree with this statement by MTR – “being a feminist and being pro-life are consistent. Pro-life feminists… see abortion as a form of violence against women in a society that won’t accommodate women and babies, especially babies born in less than perfect circumstances or babies with disabilities.” I think more could be added to that discussion, and taken out of context it might appear “fundamentalist” but this is a relevant point.
I like MTR, and I think much of her agenda is relevant and worthy of support. I don’t agree with everything she says and does, but she never asked me to.I don’t really understand why her Christian affiliation is considered “dangerous”. She is certainly not a Christian fundamentalist – if anything, she is actually very liberal as Christians go.
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I think MTR probably truly *believes* her stance is in best interests of women & girls. That doesn’t make her a feminist, just another person telling women what is best for them instead of letting them decide for themselves. For me it has everything to do with her ‘women have to be protected from themselves’ approach and nothing to do with her supposed faith.
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It would seem that Ms Tankard Reist is ashamed of whatever religion she pertains to possess. She is called a Baptist and duplicitous, but only chooses to threaten about being duplicitous. If she is NOT a Baptist, surely that would constitute libel. I smell trousers burning. Her past also indicates that she is certainly a christian and is driven by christian fundamentalist teaching. She trots out the ‘no true scotsman’ fallacy often enough. It’s not a valid argument, but one that most religious proponents use. You all know the ‘no true christian would shoot their partner/rob from the church/cheat at games’ argument. It is used every day. Sad, really.
Signed. Not a christian.
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Steve, the letter to Jennifer Wilson from MTR’s lawyer said that she was not a baptist.
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Er, what is the “no true Scotsman fallacy”?
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The ‘No true Scotsman” fallacy is one that says as an example, A: This man killed 12 people. He is horrible, isn’t he? B: Scotsman says yes he is. A: Oh, but look, he is from Glasgow. B: Yes, but no true Scotsman would do that. Insert any group you like in place of Scotsman. It is I inserting your own definition into what constitutes a Scotsman. A favorite or the religious.
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Ah, yes I see.Thanks for clearing that up.