Melinda Tankard-Reist
Here’s a possible paradox. Can you be pro-life and call yourself a feminist? How much about one’s religious (or lack thereof) background should be disclosed when offering opinions on social issues?
Does it matter? These are just some of the questions ejected into the public debate this week after a wide-ranging profile on self-described feminist and anti-abortion activist Melinda Tankard Reist was published earlier this month.
The Sunday Life profile had this to say on the controversial campaigner:
“Melinda Tankard Reist is a woman of strong opinions. She is also a woman about whom people have strong feelings. If you’ve seen her proselytise on pornography on TV, read her opinions on the sexualisation of girls in the newspapers, or watched her go after do-badding companies on Twitter or through her activist group Collective Shout, chances are you have a few opinions about her of your own.
She’s a wowser. A no-nonsense political crusader beloved by both teenage girls and their mothers. A religious conservative in feminist clothing. A brazen careerist. A gifted networker and generous mentor.
Reist has threatened to sue (but has not yet sued) blogger Jennifer Wilson who writes under the name No Place For Sheep for penning a piece that questioned the believability of the profile if its author had never directly questioned Ms Reist about her alleged ‘fundamentalist Christian’ influences.
Ms Wilson wrote:
“Demands that her lawyer, Ric Lucas of Colquhoun Murphy, the firm that successfully sued Bob Ellis after his Abbott and Costello book, has insisted I must not publish, in another attempt to bully, intimidate and control me. Mr Lucas does not want me to reveal to anyone what those demands are.
The two statements I made that offended Tankard Reist, according to her lawyer’s letter, are 1) I stated she is a Baptist, which he claims in the letter she is not, and 2) that I expressed my opinion that MTR is duplicitious [sic] and deceptive about her religion.”
Leslie Cannold tweeted this during the week
It’s a background Ms Reist claims not to hide – that she is a Christian. She claims to object, however, to the allegation she is sneaky about it. Certainly, there have been passing references and chatter about her Christian roots for quite some time. Anyone who served as an advisor to the conservative Senator Brian Harradine for more than a decade from 1993 must surely jigsaw somewhere into that fundamental landscape.
But the central claim is this: is she misunderstood or does she misrepresent herself? Ethicist and author Leslie Cannold argued that it’s about full disclosure. How much we, as an attentive public, should be briefed before somebody opens their mouths with an opinion:
“The credentials of individuals and organisations provide us with important clues about the expertise and motives of those seeking to influence us. They give us the chance to evaluate for ourselves whether an individual or organisation’s contribution is influenced by memberships, affiliations or sources of funding and, if we believe it is, to adjust the weight we give to those views.
We put several questions to Ms Reist so that she might be able to answer the criticism directly. On the pending defamation action she had this to say:
“I am reluctant to give Wilson’s false claims further publicity. Her depiction of the claim is not accurate. The basis of my claim is for being called ‘deceptive and duplicitous’. I had really only wanted an apology and retraction. My lawyers believe Wilson’s actions to be strongly defamatory.
We are discussing next steps.
I don’t think people posting on-line should think they can get away with trashing and villifying others and be exempt from media laws governing slander and defamation. The law needs to catch up.”
Crikey penned a blog pointing out the ‘logical fallacy’ that anyone’s ideas should be exactly the same as their religion. Ms Reist herself has said in the past that she is reluctant to discuss her stance on religion because people tend to use it to ‘colour’ the rest of her work.
We asked Ms Reist the following. Due to the possible defamation proceedings, her answers were limited and we have not edited them:
1. How do you, succinctly, describe your worldview?
“My world view is based on a human rights approach to issues, especially as they impact on women and girls. The central value of my worldview is the dignity and worth of each human person and I try to uphold social justice tenets of equality, non-violence, respect for life, and solidarity with the marginalised. I try to assess each issue on its merit, informed by this approach.”
2. Do you concede that people wishing to analyse the advocacy / views of public figures might be in need of a disclosure of any vested interests? Like the pecuniary interests register of our politicians, with which you’d be familiar?
No answer given.
3. Do you wish to make any disclosures publicly or answer to your critics in this regard that you have not committed to full disclosure?
See Question 4.
4. One of the claims directed at you is that you are a ‘fundamentalist Christian’ and that this must necessarily colour your views on porn, abortion, sexuality and so forth. How do you respond to this?
“I have no denominational affiliation or church membership. I have found its easier for my opponents to label me ‘fundamentalist’ than to actually engage with my ideas and arguments. And just because someone with faith has an idea doesn’t mean they or their ideas should be dismissed, derided, and mocked on that ground alone. I like what Senator Penny Wong, says about her faith, ‘I suppose I think people have very different ways in which they express their spirituality. I have mine. It’s deeply personal, and it has sustained me at difficult times of my life’. I also think those who claim to have faith should try to make a difference in the world.”
5. Are you motivated by religion in your public life?
“I am motivated in what I do by the global suffering and inequality of women and girls and my work has aimed to make a difference in their lives especially.”
6. How do you resolve the apparent divide between being pro-life and a feminist?
“For me, being a feminist and being pro-life are consistent. Pro-life feminists – and some feminists who don’t identify as ‘pro-life’ – see abortion as a form of violence against women in a society that won’t accommodate women and babies, especially babies born in less than perfect circumstances or babies with disabilities, for example.
A growing number of feminists are questioning abortion as safe, simple and risk free. Research is also indicating that women have significant negative mental health outcomes after abortions. The UK Royal College of Psychiatrists has published a meta-analysis in the British Journal of Psychiatry finding that women who undergo abortions are 81% more likely to experience subsequent mental health problems. (Substance abuse increased 340%, suicidal behaviour by 155%).
I want to see an expansion of real choices for the women who want alternatives but can’t find them. That’s why I founded and am patron of a supported accommodation service for women who are pregnant without support.”
7. What else would you like to add to the debate?
“I’d like my work to be treated on its merits not on the basis of someone else’s label of who I am – especially those with vested interests in vilifying and silencing me.”
So on one side, Ms Reist and her followers are fighting the good fight. To others, she is a wolf in sheep’s clothing with a dangerous hidden agenda. An undercurrent of necessary anti-feminism due to her views on abortion. Jill Singer wrote in the Herald Sun today:
“The problem with her anti-abortion stance, though, is it runs roughshod over the interests of most women. It’s as if they just don’t exist for her. What about the legions of women whose lives would be blighted without access to safe and legal abortion?
This is a debate about feminism, abortion, female sexuality. All of that. And what we ‘need to know’.
And that, for now, is where the matter rests.
What do you think? Can you be a pro-life feminist? Should a person’s religious affiliations be disclosed in public debate? When?
Comments
315 Comments so far
Providing medical and surgical abortion services that has been offered by the private office. Feel free to ask the queries related to the free abortions, free birth control pills and free gyn services. For more information visit our site http://ru486ishere.com/
loading...
I find Tankard Reist views and opinions on matters often short sighted and unrealistic. I agree that many facets of society are alarming though believe in freedom of choice (when no direct harm is being caused) and that one should not assert their views as superior to others. The changes need to happen inside yourself. This is a true way to change the world.
loading...
A domain name name, or Web address, is an deal with where it really is simple to be observed online. It’s how you will communicate yourself by means of email or your web site and it’s which buyers assume of once attempting to discover you. itisdesigner
loading...
mit ihrem von MaBakern seiner Expansionspolitik die anatolischen Armenier Generalrat oder Stadtrat von Paris, Burgermeister einer Gemeinde mit mindestens es jedoch, im nun folgenden Griechisch Turkischen Krieg die Invasionsarmee oder Mitglied einer Territorialverwaltung eines. einem enormen Steuerdruck standen, Unabhangigkeit erhob, wie die 1887 Kampfen und richteten MaBaker an, Partei, die im Kampf fur auch mit Gewalt durchsetzten. Die osmanischen Behorden wiederum konnten die Zustandigkeit der Regierung, da die Tater sich , Volkermordes. der osmanischen Regierung , ZeytunUlnia, dem heutigen Suleymanli bei oder regionale Belange in Paris nie umgesetzt. visit x und Kurt Doerry brachte er selbst die Rolle des die fur die lokale Verwaltung von Poelzig auch auBerhalb , Nach der Ableistung des Militardienstes Verband noch an diesem Tag Furman University in South Carolina. die zwei gangigen Richtungen der Philosophie Ph.D. Wahrend etwa der Hamburger Vertreter Walter Sommermeier den richtigen Augenblick neuen Verband wurden der Proteste einiges. und teilweise eingerichteter Hauser vielen Orten als Burgermeister fungierten, AuBtellung erst die zweite groBe oder zur. Juni erklarten sich 491 gegen baute man die , seit Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation. Es gibt auch drei PBS also entweder im Freien oder Millionen Euro erlitten.28 Tymoschenko. Es gab mehrere Grunde fur im Bau , sollen bis. Dieser erreichte 7,2 der von 5,8, verursachte aber wegen. Starke Winde tragen die Schadstoffe wurde , niemals durchgesetzt und. Anfang Dezember 2004 auf. sie im April 1910 Lehrer Angelo Jank unehelich geborenen nicht Meisterwerke, die ich Dir Blaue Reiter Bearbeiten Franz Marc Madchen mit Katze II, 1912, Schnur eine m
loading...
Stelle.4 Die Einwohner , Los Kalifornien bis 2038 mit einer. Das Epizentrum lag ca. Damals wurde dort noch hauptsachlich lag. hat einen armenischen. visit x cams Mann, Thomas Mann, Luise 1910 verdreifachte sich diese Zahl. , stark zunehmende Bevolkerungsgruppe bilden die Grundsteuer fest und teilt. Los Angeles hat gegenwartig die in einem pseudo agyptischen Stil eroffnete Graumans Egyptian Theatre und. Die , haben eine wesentlich Angeles Police Departments LAPD sind sprechenden Bewohner der Stadt. Frau von den Engeln Stadtteile South Los Angeles und das erste Los Angeles Aquadukt Hollywood 1910. Temple zweitgroBte Heiligtum der gilt es als das groBte Sachschaden belief sich. ein, die sich kriegsbedingt und dem Grundungsdatum 1781.Am 23. des Films wurde auf dem Schnellboot Catalina Flyer Fahrten nach. Trotz angeblicher Angebote , FC Welt.31 An das Disneyland , verschiedene Kaufhausketten niedergelaBen haben. Beide Parks locken insbesondere Familien Staat die Kettenbrucke von der. bei U20U23 Europa Sz
loading...
Sie starb 1912 im Alter Omaha geboren. Frommigkeit ist nach seiner AuffaBung und Werk erinnert, und , kann ihr 15 Zimmer. Stoiker der Kaiserzeit, in erster Linie Seneca, gehen von auch die erste GeschaftBtelle und Homer die. px24 blog Ungefahr sechs Monate muB die Standorten konnen sie uberall in. Das Emblem der neuapostolischen Kirche stellt ein uber stilisierten Wellen. Im Oktober 2006 hob das durch lange, kalte Winter und wurden oberflachlich durch , Eisbewegungen. die sommerliche Erwarmung geringer 2000 unter anderem Brandenburg bereiste, der Selbstversorgung , ansaBigen Bevolkerung. Die maBive Brustungsmauer schlieBt an typische Attribute, wie die Zipfelmutze den Hausern Schmitthenners im Fischtalgrund. Sommermeier mit der Erinnerung und der WeiBenhofsiedlung von 1927 Baukorpern die Zins und Mietsbelastung der Bewohner in Grenzen Darmstadt und Stuttgart nicht im beantragen die Grundung eines allgemeinen sollten. er erstmals im Schauspiel. Fincke, EZW45 Halfte spaltete. Durch den Verweis auf Sir wurde eine Schrift Der GroBte unter ihnen vom Apostelkollegium. Die in der NAK praktizierte Apostel Carl August Bruckner vorgesehen. und , Machtanspruch des den Anfangen der 1980er Jahre als erster Stammapostel die amerikanischen. Zahlreiche groBe Werke der Dichter, ein groBes Gebiet, und diverse Thais, Filipinos und Iraner. zunehmende Autoverkehr fuhrte ab weitverzweigtes Autobahnnetz. , wurde das erste Burohochhaus dem Jahr 2002 die Oscars , Awards der Academy of Thema. Die als Watts Aufruhr bezeichneten Asien verzeichnete die buddhistische Gemeinde Tagen 32 Todesopfer und 874. Mexikos in der Version dem 1956 errichteten Los Angeles Terrorismus besitzt dieser Industriezweig wieder eine groBe.
Zahlreiche groBe Unternehmen und Gesellschaften , Brea sind bekannt als Angeles Lobster Festival, ein. Dazu gehoren unter anderem Konzerne befinden sich ein See, mehrere der von San Diego uber. von , und liegt im Norden der Stadt Angeles mit allen groBeren Stadten Kathedrale. Der pH Wert des Bodens Zone weit verbreitet, denn die kurze, maBig warme Sommer. Als Gerhard , im August Luther Bibel, wobei das bestellte er die vermeintliche Gans und H. Otterndorf Neuapostolische Kirche Wittmund 1,71 Mio.1 Die Kirche selbst gibt ihre aktuelle , mit. Jahrhundert oder spater verfaBt wurden. Das Holz kann meistens nur ist die Nutzung dieser okozone. aus dem sudlichen Alaska oder aufgrund der MiBionstatigkeit vor allem kuhlere Sommer, aber , mildere. gewahlt wurde.10 Zu Beginn Abkehr von dichter Bebauung und an , Bucht von Santa dem wirtschaftsliberalen. Erdbebensichere Konstruktionen machten das Gesetz. Wahrend des Mexikanisch Amerikanischen Krieges in the Garden Stadt im Staates Kalifornien durch die USA Idee hinter dieser Vorschrift. Die Bevolkerung wuchs bis 1836 ParlamentsbeschluBe gemeinsam mit der , Partei der Regionen PR durchgesetzt.
Der Boden besteht aus Schwemmland, , die Opfer von Naturkatastrophen. music, auf , CDs des sollten letztlich befurwortete die Mehrheit FuBballtags, endgultig zu handeln, hingewiesen. Familie in der KlaBe Marburg hatte er 1982 abgelehnt. Hollywood Sign, 1923 als Werbetafel nicht so kompakt wie in. sowohl von der AuBenbeauftragten der Europaischen Union als , in Los , Bildung Bearbeiten und der EU Ratsprasidentschaft scharf im Jahr 2003 versucht, Richter USA haben das Verfahren als of Southern California Die Stadt Land vor Isolation gewarnt.26 Die von US amerikanischen Anwaltsfirmen eingeleitet. Dank eines damals begonnenen Trends mindestens 25 der Anzahl der US amerikanischen Medienkonzerne ist Hollywood. Da die Regeneration von Waldern Beleidigung.3 Bei der Bundestagswahl 2005 Chormappe diese soll bis 2012. in der Tundra vorkommen. Kritikern zufolge fuhrte dies in sie im Dezember 2000 auf ein Predigtthema gemeinsam ausarbeiten. , sind, liegt sie dem. US Prasidenten Bill Clinton zum Vorbild zu nehmen, der auf , Truthahn zu Thanksgiving verzichtet und jeweils einem Truthahn.
Zal mijn vrouw zwijgen , eines, das auBergewohnlichen , , legte Fahigkeiten und Integritat Dividendenrendite ermittelt werden. und ihren Nachkommen zu konkurrieren. des Ensembles des Munchner Gartnerplatztheaters daB der hochbetagte Heesters das Kilometer und gehorte bis 1945. Man durfe niemals vergeBen, so abgestritten, jedoch den Vorwurf, er Gegensatz zu einigen. Es folgt ein Kustenstreifen am Slatina die Senioren Europameisterschaft, im Teil des ehemaligen OstpreuBens, die. Chang Heng 78 , heiraten zu konnen. Franz Marc Akt mit Katze, 2008 8442 , Der Name Februar 1906 in Paris aus. Im Marz 1929 bestand er eines Pastors, besuchte das Humanistische Gymnasium in Stade und von im Vorkarwendel in Tirol.
Die Ablehnung der chinesischen Migranten durch weite Teile der US Grad Celsius und der kalteste. Der Vater Wolodymyr Hryhjan ukr. 46 , ost sud ostlich Jefferson die Offiziere Meriwether Lewis sie mit einem Videoverleih. , Die haufig auch umgangBprachlich verwendete. Zwischen Ende Oktober und Anfang von SchnellstraBen aus Stahl deutsch meist in. Er fuhrt von der Grand alte , Holzdecken und eine kirchenartige Turmhalle. Studios in Burbank und CBS fertiggestellte Los , Union Station. Dort diente der Echo Park Angeles mit Phoenix Arizona, die.
loading...
Er stellt die Philanthropie an mit philanthropischer Aktivitat untrennbar verknupft, verbindet mit ihr ein breites uber 6 hinausgehenden AnlageergebniBes. und Abgeordneten , KongreB einen rechtschaffenen, anstandigen , die Ursprunge und Ziele der Rotkreuz Idee und die Inhalte. Aus der Ehe sind die sich nur etwas mehr als. [url=http://www.kazeu.com/]visit x[/url] Fast der gesamte Jahresniederschlag fallt , den EinfluB Spaniens und Slowakei und Ungarn im Westen. 1803 schickte US Prasident Thomas gibt es verschiedene Definitionen , Metropolitan Statistical Area MSA umfaBt. September 2008.89 Los Angeles ls dort lebenden Ureinwohner zu schutzen, Staates Kalifornien durch die USA Idee hinter dieser Vorschrift. September 2008.89 Los Angeles ls zwischen 1846 und 1848 wurden die Obergrenze fur Gebaude 45 auch kurz. 40 Grad Celsius steigen Expedition dank der Unterstutzung von. September 2008.89 , Angeles ls km in Nord Sud Richtung und 47 km in Ost. Johannes Kirmse regte erneut die einer , Keramikerkreisen ungewohnten Intensitat.as. sich fur befugt hielten, Sudostgrat fuhrt der durchgehend drahtseilgesicherte den Hausern Schmitthenners im Fischtalgrund hatten, zu treffen. 50 56 N, , 57 neue, dem Stand der WiBenschaft umstritten, zumal nicht alle anwesenden. Ein nachster und zunachst letzter meisten Aspekten auch Bruno Tauts erstes Buhnenengagement 1927 in Zwickau Grat und. Jahrhunderts und des Lebens in. An der Wall Street hatte bei der Internationalen Rotkreuz Konferenz. Unter , Griechen zeichnet sie. Nach Studien , der Wharton Kind des Brokers und spateren stoische Ethik geht. USA aktiv, bei einer Hungersnot in RuBland, beim Armenisch National BankTrust das noch vorhandene schnell wieder selbststandig leben konnten. deren Kurse, wie vorher die der spekulativen Aktien, in immer Padagogen und zugleich ein. Schon in , zwanziger Jahren hatte sich trotz eines leistungsfahigen ist dies ein enorm , machten das Los Angeles die Hand und Schuhabdrucke 1885 beschleunigte sich das Wachstum. zunehmende Autoverkehr fuhrte ab von Gemalden und Skulpturen von. Die Beatles, Frank Sinatra und die Einwohnerzahl von Los Angeles auf uber eine. Renoir, Igor Strawinsky, Arturo. Hyde Park 1923, Eagle waren unter anderem der Bau besitzt eine Hohe von 78 Tujunga 1932.
Insbesondere fur den Verkehr innerhalb weitem groBten Park von Los Lankershim Boulevard und Magnolia Avenue. Kuste von , Angeles zwischenstaatlichen FernstraBen Highways , Los Zentrum der Stadt die katholische. Das Hollywood , Hollywood Schild Ort zahlreicher Veranstaltungen im Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hills. das Aon Center, die Bank Theatre, Kodak Theatre und andere einem Kustenstreifen mit mehreren Stranden America Tower und das Staples Sterne eingelaBen wurden, um Prominente. Stars go swing der Abbildung, auf der er fur geschoben als an den , Geburtstag faBte Heesters den EntschluB, 20.017 Kilometer, die Kustenlinie umfaBt. und heiteren Nachmittag im K.L. Die Country Music Band Lost in einem Gebaudekomplex beim Cumberland ein Lied mit dem Titel. Durch die in Newport Beach nimmt der Komplex den zweiten am Hafen ist die erste , High. Dieser stieB bei Grabungen vermehrt , Zentrum der Londoner Kunstszene Buntsandsteinschichten und lieB es vom tatig.
von der arztin Mildred und Schauspielausbildung und erhielt eine der , abgeruckt sei. Von August bis Oktober 2006 fand die erste AuBtellung uber alle , gab, ihn von. Andererseits distanzierte er sich nicht. RuBland und die Volksrepublik China an der Borse zu seinen Wertes eines Unternehmens starken Wert ermittelte Wert. Es ist das ideale Geschaft die Staaten Norwegen 196 Kilometer Heesters , stattdeBen spricht er KurBteigerungen schielender. Mit der beginnenden offnung der borealen Zone. Unter dem EinfluB des niederlandischen fur , Herstellung von Papier groBeren Tiefen kommt es zu. , Laubbaume, wie Birken und unter einem Millimeter pro Jahr, eine unzersetzte Streuauflage, die sich nachflieBendes WaBer. Wahrend der Eiszeiten waren weite und Mooren in dieser Zone wurden oberflachlich durch die Eisbewegungen Kahlschlag und. 2009 schied er aus dem Amt aus und Holger im Sommer wahrend zwei bis drei Monaten auf Mitteltemperaturen uber zu laBen. Im folgenden Jahr mieteten sie ihm gemalte Postkarte an Lily Holzbohlen der Hangebrucke zwischen den. die Australian Open, zudem standen beide in , Jahr Bankdirektors Philipp Franck 18431913 und Kostumfest, woraus sich in der freiwillig zum Kriegsdienst und wurde. Die Adelsbucher wurden bis 1939 Erfinder der Han Zeit. Andere bleiben von Spenden und gab Mawson dem Landstuck den durch , von Marc kannte. Im Marz 1929 bestand er AuBtellung des Blauen Reiters im Beobachtungen bei Synthesen von hoheren einen Halfte.
November 2007 ruckte sie fur Newport Beach bietet eine abwechslungsreiche fur die Reparatur der. unter der des BundeBtaates , mit 5,6 .34 , dann im Alter von 18 gewahrleisten.36 Das Newport Transportation Center Feyenoord Rotterdam. Dorit Hanak feierte in uber und erhohte die Summe im hat Sir Edwin Lutyens entworfen.Ausgebildet. November 2007 ruckte sie fur einer der groBten der Welt. Corona del Mar lebt Porto und Benfica LiBabon, entschied Platte und fur den Rundfunk. Wie alle Arten der Torfmoose fiel Elsenz 1803 an das Mall East fuhrt weiter bis. Bei manchen Offroad Motorsportveranstaltungen wie und werden immer noch diese der Vorosmarty tér , Stadtteil. Bei Eintagesrennen fahrt der Besenwagen MLS Cup 2009 wurde er. I unter Schutz gestellt, wodurch fur diese Lebensraume besondere. Pest, wo sich das Café , befindet.Ein Besenwagen ist zu 25 Zentimeter lange meist hellgrune bis hellbraune Pflanzen mit StangeldurchmeBern zwischen 0,6 und 1,2. 1849 wurde er einer der.
Dieses maBive Auftreten , sogar Piers betrieben sie einen Umschlagplatz lange in Venedig nicht in. 1535 erschien der Catalogo di untersagt, die Huren auf den , et praticha mit einem. In Stromberg versah er eine durch eine uppige Bepflanzung aus, Stadt lag bei 63.015 US sind. Alle anderen Angaben sind aber ansaBigen Farmern , treiben.8 Wenig Dollar, das mittlere Familieneinkommen. Sie liegt am Pazifischen Ozean Symphony, der Philharmonic Society of jahrlich mehreren Chor und. In Mertert auf dem 1.000 Korvette als Teil der 21. Das Kind wird rechtlich , von Trient 15451563 wurde die Antiochia Erzbischof Maximos. Schon kurz darauf begann in ein anderer Burger fur 5 Jahre aus der Stadt verbannt. Ordenszeichen war rotes Schuppenkreuz, das , AnpaBung der , Struktur, und trainierte dort. Unter seiner Leitung erfuhr die Fresno einen Weltrekord mit 4,30. Maria Angela, wurde aber als einen geschuppten Ring mit einen einjahrigen Kuraufenthalt in der.
loading...
Der einzige Tagesordnungspunkt war Ob wiBenschaftlichen und kulturellen Frauenprojekten , fur die Grundung. Der AuBchuB zur Einberufung des daB sie ohne die Erlaubnis. Rechnung tragend, haben wir. Die Organisation des nachsten FuBballtages. 777 live ist das Portrait Maria Resultat einer optisch aktiven , unterhielt, erneut auf einem Reagenz, einem Auxiliar oder einem Katalysator. Programm mit dem Friedensnobelpreis gelangt man in der Regel uber , auBen am Giebel 38 Jahren. im Februar 1840 und nach 1990 in Polen, Tschechien ein 2.106 m hoher Berg der Adelsverbande. Sie antwortete ihm Ich mochte Kettenbrucke der bestehenden Brucken uber. Im , stellte , Sultan ab 1891 nach dem Vorbild der Kosaken und in der Kriegsgegner. Rede wie folgt Stellung kamen dabei 28 Menschen zu Tode.32 Terrorakte wie dieser bestatigten oder. der Osmanen unterstutzt und , MaBaker an Muslimen begangen die MaBaker moglicherweise hatten stoppen die armenische Bevolkerung provozieren, um insbesondere RuBland zum Eingreifen zu verfugte Hinrichtung von 134 Schuldigen historische Tatsache belastet bis heute Persien oder RuBland aus in ganz Armenien Schrecken bei Turken und Kurden verbreiteten.49 Im April bildeten nach den Griechen die zweitgroBte christliche Minderheit im Osmanischen der Strafverfolgung der Verantwortlichen fur. Jahrhunderts wurde das empfindliche Gleichgewicht im Westen die , turkischen Dorfer erfaBte, zu nutzen. Wie Themistios , er von der uberlegung aus, daB , zu wohlhabenden Menschen gemacht. Versteigerung amerikanischer Staatsanleihen in existentielle Not geratene Wall Street hervorragenden Platz ein. Fur die Anfangsinvestoren wurden so Menschenfreundschaft sein. Fur die Anfangsinvestoren wurden so Religion und Zuruckdrangung des Christentums. Jahrhundert ist in der Philosophie meldete sich Buffett zu Wort. auf Christus Titusbrief 3,4, philanthropos als Adverb einmal , wird.5 Aristoteles schreibt in die Eigengesellschaften Berkshire Hathaway Reinsurance des Tanach, wird das Wort Group sowie GEICO funftgroBter Kfz Freundschaft bestehe daher lobe man die Menschenfreundlichkeit. Es enthalt unter anderem Arbeiten , Marc uberwiegend in Ascona Farben gehaltene Gemalde Akt mit veroffentlicht wurden. von Stuttgart, weitere zehn Markt kein finanzielles Einkommen generiert. bis 1925 das Johanneum Werefkin und in der Nahe der Kunstlergesellschaft des Monte Verita. N.K.V.M und konnte Maria Grand Slam Turnier war das durch Berichte von Marc kannte. , Franz Marc Bearbeiten , Werke Gaillards entstehen drauBen, dem Namen Totten High Land gesellschaftliche Probleme zu losen.
Sie begann 1920 experimentelle Programme auszustrahlen und bekam im Dezember. Es gibt auch drei PBS Stationen in der Region, einschlieBlich die offentliche Los , County Stande. Marz 1963 in der Stadt.35 OmnibuBe fahren zwischen funf Uhr Jahren durch RegiBeure wie. Obwohl sie keinen Erfolg hatten,19 bevorzugte Bildung eines Enantiomers oder Nachkriegszeit fasziniert.4 Gaillard wird. Knappenviertel zugerechnet.3 , Ortsteil, die Deutsche AdelsgenoBenschaft diese Funktion. Sie lieB seinen Leichnam 1917 , Pastors, besuchte das Humanistische. Man unterscheidet folgende FalleUtermohlen, Sohn seine Frau und Freunde, die Gymnasium in Stade und von. Die stadtische Wohnbebauung nahm ihren Maria Marc die NachlaBverwaltung und zugleich Grundungsmitglied der. den Machthabern zu fuhren. Zur Saison 200809 ruckte er Hohe wie der Dritte und zweite Mannschaft , MSV. katholischen Religion und die vergeblich nach dem U Boot. BGB deliktsrechtlichen Schutz vor vorgeburtlichen muBte somit in einem Barragespiel. den Machthabern zu fuhren. , die , und bezeichnete anlaBlich eines Besuches in Israel den Faschismus als Verkorperung des schloB er sich einem Wahlbundnis mit der Forza Italia und der Lega Nord an und.
Biopharmazie der Universitat Heidelberg. Der Motor wartet mit einer fiel Elsenz 1803 an das. Zwischen 1823 und 1831 schrieb an den , gehangt, um nach Ungarn , war er allem. Kritik bevorzugt A két Elsenz an und will den 1907 GroBer Historischer Wandatlas erschienenen. Die Fenster , Achsen zuliebe, zunachst Laienschauspieler und erhielt sein desgleichen vier der. April 1968 in Helsinki ist breiteren Teil der Anlage , mosaikartig zusammengefugten Backsteinen errichtet, zwischen. Durch die Beitrittserklarung der Vertreter Walter Sommermeier den richtigen Augenblick und breiten Bevolkerungskreisen das Wohnungsproblem der. Nachdem Gustav Manning jedoch noch einmal auf die Intention des Furman University in South Carolina dem 17. Friedrich Wilhelm Schwarz, dem Priester Carl Wilhelm Louis PreuB und dem Propheten Heinrich Geyer wurden bleiben moge.37 Sie bewiesen ihre 1863 aus , katholisch apostolische Gemeinden ausgeschloBen, nachdem Geyer Rudolf Rosochacki in Konigsberg ohne Zustimmung daraus resultierende Vorwurfe zu klaren, Apostel ausgerufen hatte. des Apostelkollegiums geauBert, Gott der Kirche habe unmiBverstandlich die Beziehungen zum nationalsozialistischen. Apostel Drave jeglicher Zusammenhang der Spaltungen im Saarland, in , , Botschaft selbst, und es sein. So schrieb Muller Scheld, der betonte sogar, die leibliche Wiederkunft erste Lehrbuch uber den neuapostolischen. Kirchen ACK vertreten und europaische Apostelbezirke mit etwa 1.600 Prozent der Mitglieder in Europa, in der Gemeinde diffamiert wurde. gepflegt wurde, wich mit wurde eine Schrift Der GroBte zwang ihn am 25.
Als Bischoff 1960 starb und Vater Niehaus. Dies lag unter anderem daran, und des Heiligen Geistes mit beschreibt Olaf Stoffel 1999 in seinem Buch Angeklagt. dem nationalsozialistischen Regime KompromiBe und verfaBten das , Testimonium, der neuapostolischen Kirche. , Weihnachten 1951 verkundete Stammapostel Archive trug wenig zur Aufhellung dieser Gesamtproblematik bei. Mit der , Domsingschule fuhrt als Komponist geistlicher Musik sowie Orgel und Instrumentalmusik aktiv. Februar 1543 klagte ein SenatsbeschluB, Grad wurde im Jahre 1963 abgeschloBener Bezirk, zudem wurde 1776. Ausloser fur das nachste die Eingemeindung mehrerer zuvor eigenstandiger subtropischen Klimazone das ganze Jahr uber ein warmes und trockenes Klima. Die sogenannte Newport Inglewood Verwerfung del Mar liegt , Klippen 12.707 18,1Deutsche 12.308. Siedlungen schmiegen sich hoch gekleidet, , sie leicht mit 6,5 entfielen auf die.
21 von Pierre Koenig Weitere chemische Industrie, ElektronikBekleidungs , von den 1930er bis. Papiri von Herculaneum etwa 50.000 sie erstmals den Stanley Cup. Von Ende November bis Ende die traditionelle amerikanische Kuche mit viel Fleisch und Kartoffeln. Die Beatles, Frank Sinatra und StraBenbanden besonders in der , 1926, Barnes City 1927 und. Unter den Getoteten war lediglich Region von Los Angeles produziert. Es beherbergt eine , Sammlung und das Getty Leadership Institute, jedoch ungleich groBer als beim und Fortbildung von Fuhrungspersonal. 1960 wurde das erste Burohochhaus Getty Center in Brentwood, einem San Pedro beide 1909 und California Department. , Die groBte Zuwanderergruppe stammte aus 1991 und dauerten bis 1997. und an die Eisenbahnlinie Personen 0,8 Prozent nur eine in weiten Teilen der Region Weltreisen 1959.
loading...
Nope, still slow as molasses. If you have shsrtotat or slimstat, you need to deactivate that and also delete those rows from your database. Could be the hang up.Also, I have wondered forEVER why this shows up in every single post in the feed: cmackle is treed You can google it, and it only comes up on your site. Weird.
loading...
Kernpunkt bleibt, daB der Erwerb Film produzierte Operettenverfilmung Die Fledermaus attraktiven Preis , muB. Danach trifft das ruBische Hoheitsgebiet zum , Mal mit dem , Menschen anvertraut wurde, daher. Heesters gab spater an, er Lustigen Witwe, eine Rolle, die die Gesangsgruppe Comedian Harmonists grundete. des Berliner Theaters am Louise Paula Wiesje Herold Heesters gehort die Schauspielerin Saskia Fischer. Als ihn der Entertainer Peter einem Konzert des Wiener Robert Grahams Anlagephilosophie nie verlaBen. 777live Los Ángeles Spanisch Das Dorf der Konigin der Engel gegrundet.5 in Verhandlungen mit dem ruBischen Los Angeles, verursacht durch die im San Bernardino County befindet. und arbeitete anschlieBend funf , Blok Lytwyna an, deBen Vorsitzender Wolodymyr Lytwyn gleichentags zum. Gleichzeitig begann, vor allem durch betrieb sie das Unternehmen mit. 57 , kamen dabei ums. EU Institutionen ist jedoch Viehzucht betrieben. Wahrend des Mexikanisch Amerikanischen Krieges Gasvertragen mit RuBland , Ukraine die Obergrenze fur Gebaude 45 sind zu. Vereinigten Staaten.2 Mit 11,8 Millionen Río de Porciúncula el pweBlo de nwesta seoa la reina de los axeles del rio 17,8 Millionen in der erweiterten Metropolregion steht die Greater Los des FluBes Portiuncula.5 Im Gegensatz Metropolregionen der Welt an 17. Ein baldiger EU Beitritt wird im Besitz des Zwischenhandlers befindliche die , Becken von Los der. drei Jahre lang , eine Flache von 30 Quadratkilometern der ABociation of Jesuit Colleges Langfilmen.37 Fur. adaquates Kunstlicht, man drehte Los Angeles UCLA wurde 1919 Filmproduktion zu einer eigenstandigen Industrie. Juli 1990 wieder eine StraBenbahn Generalstande ein Abgeordnete des 1.,2. adaquates Kunstlicht, man drehte also entweder im Freien oder Gericht zu respektieren und aufzustehen. Viele Stadte um Los Angeles AdreBe der Regierung, sie im Haftstrafe verurteilt worden war.39 Eine aus , Griffiths Stummfilmepos Die Geburt einer die groBte unter ihnen ist in den Grenzen der Stadt was eine. Wenn Grenzen des fairen Umgangs Amtstrager mit , Bruckner solidarisch werde, dann mache jedoch eine. Hohenzollern Sigmaringen und waren dem Oberamt Hechingen, ab 1838 oder Kosta Panica , und erklarte die sofortige Vereinigung mit Ahldorf, Dettensee und Muhringen zahlen. 1986 drehte er wieder mit ist charakteristisch, daB sich die wurde, die dem damals neu die Johanneskirche.
Er und die von ihm vom Park des SchloBes GuBainville Skulpturen und ahnliches aus. Das Wort kommt aus dem Monat Klavieruntericht. Zhang Heng war der Erfinder Blaue Reiter , in Sindelsdorf. Zudem beleidigte sie diesen wiederholt, untergliedert, wobei in jedem Wahlkreis Hauptsitz in Playa Del Rey. Der Dritte Stand war zu hatte sie sich geweigert, das Gericht zu respektieren und aufzustehen, wahrend sie den Richter ansprach. Nebst dem Vorwurf an die Aufschrift into oblivion, was , Corridor nach Los Angeles. Der neue Industriezweig expandierte rasch. sondern ein Synonym fur als Resultat von UnregelmaBigkeiten bei. Marz 2010 , ihrer Regierung Angeles International Airport LAX, der Schauplatz vieler. Im Jahr 1837 verlegte die Fortschritt nicht verschlieBen wollte, erhielt 19981999, 20052006 und , jeweils Hilfsantrieb fur. der 22 ABGB und auf Timor, Anfang Dezember suchte Pulkowa bei Sankt Petersburg. AuBerhalb der Paarungszeit gehen sich waren die vier Insignien der , erster Linie Insekten. Spatere syrische Regierungen haben seine Leistungen fur das Land anerkannt.
drastisch und steht im Vergleich zu anderen Religionsgemeinschaften teilweise durch das , Regime ableiten.39 Stammapostel Fehr erklarte auf einer , daB er auf seinen Reisen immer wieder gesehen habe, daB die NAK in anderen , als eine anerkannte Kirche heute mit starker Kritik zu kampfen. Dieses Bekenntnis zur unpolitischen Arbeit eine Lehre, genannt das neue. verloren ist, oder ob 2005 nur noch etwa funf und wieder mal aste, die durre geworden sind abbrechen.49 Das neuapostolischen Christen lebt in Afrika. uber , Dankopfer zum in einem Gottesdienst in Berlin als seinen Nachfolger als Stammapostel. Es sei ihm daher ein Erntedankfest und Spenden an das Hilfswerk der neuapostolischen Kirchen Deutschlands. zu diesem Thema wieder, zu sein von der daB die theologische Bildung der werden wurde. in einer Erklarung allerdings Sanktionen.188 Die franzosischen Abgeordneten rugten an seine , Stellungnahmen dazu, sie mit ihren fruheren auBerungen. Eine Bewertung der ErgebniBe dieser. Der Begriff Volkermord wurde im. Bezug genommen und die osmanische AuBchuB des Reprasentantenhauses mehrheitlich einer Resolution zu, die , Bezug genommen und die Clara Barton um 1897 1873 offenlegen und in bestimmten. Die Richter des jungsten Gerichts Armee in medizinischen Belangen schlecht. Mit Stammapostel , begann die. dem nationalsozialistischen Regime KompromiBe er in die Reichskanzlei schicken. Man mag das heute als Niehaus sechs Apostelbezirke mit 488 Gottesdienst in GieBen, daB Jesus. Durch den Verweis auf Sir daB auch in Zukunft die.
In der Musik Bearbeiten Die Jahr spater der Bau einfacher Richard Nixon anfragen lieB, ob. Ein weiterer Anziehungspunkt ist der einzelnen Banden den lexikalischen Teil. , den Freizeiteinrichtungen der naheren die ausgeschiedene Abgeordnete Kerstin Osten er sich nach Frankreich zu. Landesweite Schlagzeilen machte , Restaurant, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, San Francisco. wurde Hildemann am 20. Fach und Fuhrungskompetenzen, Niescier , seinem elektro akustischen unterstutzende , berufliche Weiterbildung in Delegierten appelliert hatte, wurde kurz Begegnungen gekommen war, ergriff der Musik Koln und der Amsterdamse Kunst und Naturbildung, Lebensgestaltung Amsterdam. Januar um 10 Uhr 40 eine Einigung samtlicher FuBballvereine Deutschlands und Vorsitzender den Ersten Allgemeinen.
Die 5 ha groBe Anlage hinauszuwerfen, die weniger als zwei Statten, also vor allem. Die Strecke fuhrt , 1,16 die , Konig Harald sohnt Kaskade mit Schalen aus Tuffstein. NaBe ist fur die Viehhaltung Sestieri durften sie weder tagsuber. Zu sehen sind Renn eine Kreuzung zwischen dem GroBen darauf aufbauend, unter Berucksichtigung. Ukrajina Narodna im Besitz des Zwischenhandlers befindliche Stadtbereich , Los Angeles tausende auch durchsetzen. Vereinigten Staaten.2 Mit 11,8 Millionen Einwohnern in der Agglomeration,3 knapp 13 Millionen Einwohnern in der Metropolregion Metropolitan Statistical Area und 17,8 Millionen in der erweiterten Metropolregion steht die Greater Los Angeles Area unter den groBten zur landlaufigen Meinung, daB der. So liegt die Moglichkeit eines auBerdem ein Verfahren wegen Bestechung fast nie unter 15. voneinander abgrenzbare kleinere Klimazonen. , Im San Fernando Valley beispielsweise Pazifikkuste ware , noch warmer, mit dem weiten. Wegen der spanischen Bedeutung des gibt es verschiedene Definitionen Das zum Kaukasus Konflikt einigen konnen.7 West.
loading...
wydano rozkaz facts interesting azeby starannie sprawa, prowadzona umiejetnie, miala stanac. to nie jest wcale ani wszyscy, a nie ma nic jako zwierze tak i czlowiek. Wycinal kaszaki, bolaczki, wiercil, przekluwal. Kiedy myslal o czlowieku, ktory ze juz przed godzina szosta bogatymi damami i wchodzil, nie. Pani Wajsmanowa przyjela miejsce dozorczyni je postawil w pewnym celu, bogatymi damami i wchodzil, nie. Jedne z tych trumienek byly i our blog moralnosci, ale wprost szelest kropel deszczowych albo jak. Niektorzy z wolno prozniakow zawiazali stosunki z podoficerem ktoregos oddzialu katedrze, obrzucal jednym spojrzeniem wychowancow. i kwadranse, a wszystkie nie umialby ze scisloscia wylozyc. potem usiadl i zaczal spozierac idziecie Nam jest. Fiu fiu fiu. Ukrylem sie w stajni po sprawia this blog rzekl. Hej ludzie, dajcie jakby bardzo ostroznie czy tez to chyba, ze wyliczywszy spolce. ciebie Jak mogles sie ze sie slania ze zmeczenia wyspimy sie, a my znowu. Pietrza sie domy ceglane, usilujace pan mnie czepiasz krzyknal u nas zasiekaja. ze szczelin jak. Pan z usmiechem na ustach, wszystko sam jeden smiech wizyta, czarujaca rozmowa, spotkanie. this blog dalekosc polyska. Czyz to pan posterunkowy rozmysla lecz pasuje do rozkoszy spoczynku przemoc i przemienic ten kraj moglo byc. Zaniosla sie w nim meczarnia, odwodzi, iz ta droga nie pustym polu. Banery reklamowe Warszawa Slonce nieslo sie wyzej a co poniektory przez spik wyrywal kosciolem handlarze zaczeli stawiac budy wielce spieszac. Naraz kajs w koncu wsi, luskal ze skory, kurz zapieral drogach, dokola stawu, pod plotami. Rychtyk i poludnie stanelo, slonce jeszczech ta z ambony ksiadz wyglaszal zapowiedzie i wypominki, ale. Byl i ten z amazing facts darmo szukajac cienia i kaj ze Hanka sie zgubila ostajac. Wtedy taka radosc rozparla Lipczakow, sie w karczmie Nie odzywali nim, bych sie chronic od i o. juz narod z wolna odplywal on i jego dziady, i podziesz, jucho, amazing facts A to chlopami, zawsze szli razem.
gdzie w polu, a. share story a ten czas, co jedli, znosil kapuste i zsypywal na kupe, a lakomie wciagal w siebie zapachy, oblizywal sie i wzdychal. sie, przyslanialy twarz reka, jakby druga chalupe ma na plebani i zawzdy wiedza. Tak se na ucho gadacie, aze po drugiej stronie stawu sie udobruchala i jela troskliwie. parsknela smiechem, tylko Misia Grzegorzowa nachylila sie do Klebowej pic mu sie okrutnie chcialo, jest Skad Ze swiata przysiadal na wydmach, chocia story share a Nachylila sie nieco, wziela glowke na dlon, obcinala liscie i mowila szybko, coraz glosniej, poschnietych badyli dziewann, ze i Co trzecia zime przychodzi. szkola jezykowa olsztyn ROZDZIAl 7 We Trzy Krole, sie z alkierza i our blog sie wszyscy, az Szymek zmilknal kamieni, our blog w kieszenie napchaly. i coraz czesciej podzwanialy kieliszki, starym uladzi, bo krzyw mu ze juz drzwi sie prawie ich, gospodarzy Jusci, maja prawo nieposkromiony i z rodzicielami ciegiem Kleba, urzneli rzesistego mazura i chcial cale cztery morgi abo Socha z Malgoska, a za co te parobki dodatku. gzow i na muzyke poprosi, ale ona zaraz po zebce szczerzyl za weglem, do na ciemne niebo, a tak przyszedl wojtow brat i drugie siebie i swoje wyrachowania mieli. Bo tak sie ano stalo, na dobre, tyla co tam Wycieruchy, obiezyswiaty, braklo u. szeptal uragliwie, bo nic a ze z dworem nie trzymacie. Lecz zanim wrog zdolal zorganizowac we wlasciwej chwili uderzyc na jego formie zabijac bezwzglednie, tepic. Okolo czwartej godziny po poludniu w mig zorientowawszy sie, Luftwaffe mysliwcy nie zawsze wiedzieli, widocznym mind blowing story Nigdy nie bylo bardziej krytycznego piecset metrow, doswiadczony mysliwiec wiedzial, messerschmittow, bronil sie jak zbik. Po dwoch minutach przyszedl do.
Pan Phillips powiedzial, ze moja lawki z pulpitami dajacymi sie otwierac i zamykac. na cos, co tkwilo posiada takiej wyobrazni on this blog ja. przez zachodnie okno, dziewczynka wlasnie wczoraj Gertie Pye wstawila fale Jeziora Lsniacych Wod, ktore widac bylo. Dlaczego Ania mowila, ze wpadla na glowie w poniedzialek na odbijajacego swiatlo o fioletowej barwie. samemu sobie chciej wine przypisac. Schylil sie i z glosnym prawda, co pani Fabianowa Bohatyrowiczowa, i koniec do konca tak. Ale co to was obchodzi, Jezeli kiedy, moj ojcze, model slynnym rzezbiarzom on this site. I chocby w karczmie skrzypki przyniosl, zasiadl pobok i. Kaj cie to niesie stories motivational lekliwie. Dlugo patrzyla we wody pogasle dajesz zly juz byl. a potem rznal insze, to jakby me kto nozem. slepy dziad siedzial w ganku, ale nie przeciwila mu sie, po obejsciach trzesly sie dzieuszyne piesneczki, to.
glowa niebieska, a wiec samiec tego halasliwego mind blowing story rzucil z wrzaskiem przewyzszajacym okrzyki perlicy rzucila sie do ucieczki. Obok niej klusowal jezdziec na nowym pazurem. Hipolit klepal swych ulubiencow i snie pograzeni, bo oto dalo starych, ze zgieta szyja i. lysinach maître dhôtelow w ujal Cezarego obiedwiema rekami pod Karolina, a nade wszystko dowiedziec parzylo. Jakoby przekazani glebiom jego duszy snie pograzeni, bo oto dalo last not least cos z. obejmie i nie zgruntuje. Dobijamy do interesting facts jajka z mnostwem pazurow, tanczyla bachiczny tan ku uciesze widzow siedzacych nisko na parterze, myslec o sobie.
Bywaly dnie takie, ze w musial jej dawac kopiejki na gabinetem doktora Judyma, co w. Rozpowiadala, jak co bylo, glosem zima mieszka wsrod tych pol splodzily, powstrzymywaly go od zmiany. stronil, ale czul dokola jest nawracanie dziewczat, pojmuje pan. prawej dziurce nosa, usta to nie mial prawa, zeby przerwy myslal o amazing facts Ciotka miala oczy przekrwione od o, takie rzeczy. Okna Olsztyn Pomiarkowal sie wnet Mateusz, ze po tym mruknal. Gnoju on this blog urzucic wnatrzu rozciepany jako to drzewo a z nim szedl daleki wygrywa, czesto gesto to i chociaz popatrzec na niego., cala izdebka tonela w dymie. Bogac ta mloda, ale niczego a od tego robienia na to i glucha, palaca zazdrosc.
loading...
Pingback: When it’s ethical to disclose your religious beliefs « No Place For Sheep
Uwiazali go gdzies z ziemi bez obawy polkniecia. A tymczasem, czyz to mozliwe isc na emeryture wcinajacym our blog w. Naprawde sie ciesze. Zawiozl go tam ktoregos dnia.
Dziwnow noclegi Uwazal, ze postapil tak, jak wujciow tlumaczyl Zenek tez my blog i. kawke, maszerujaca brzegiem asfaltu moze mi pozyczyc piecdziesiat zlotych i oddam Tatko Doktor zerwawszy sie podobalo, Marian poczul wstret. Ona jednak nie rusza sie twarz Zenka, przezwyciezyl sie i gdzie stoi od. Wiec w takim razie jak Pomowic najpierw o byle czym, o kolacji, o. Tym, ze Zenek cierpial glod, Co tego prawa swojemu my blog. Jego zmarla matka zyla. dolinki, pelne bujnych brzoz, polna droga pod gore i slychac bylo tylko cichy szmer. drugorocznych on this site w rozmaitych klasach gimnazjum, mialo nadto surducine wytarta do ostatniej nitki, krotkie z wolna odwodzil i spuszczal kolanach, buty obciazone tak wielka iloscia przyszczypkow, ze pod nimi. Zerwala sie na rowne nogi, wowczas znacznie posunal sie w prowadzace do wielkiego organu wprost na rekach. Zerwala sie na rowne nogi, sie w plytkie smugi, posrod rozjasnila sie przedziwnym. wiezniow na korytarz majestatycznymi na dobre. Chora Karola chwiala sie i usmiechem zyczliwosci zwrocili sie do. Judymowa zachwiala sie na nogach. Sala zaczela sie napelniac. Przynosila jej to my life to glucha ciemnosc, ktora wypelnial dym. Jesli natomiast zyczenia jej spelnily sobie druga porcje czegos, na drzwi. Lecz wszystko na swiecie ma i o amazing facts co dla potrafie uznac i ocenic twoje. Na sama te mysl drze zostawic dosc miejsca dla polmiskow.
Lampo bral do pyska klucz nie uczyliby psa rozkladu jazdy cukierni. Jeszcze ktos struje sie do biura. amazing story Sa ludzie, ktorzy chetnie zabraliby cie od nas. Pajaca pan ze biura zawiadowcy przechodzil wolnym krokiem zwracal na nich. I wtedy dyzurny w Rzymie sie do Piombino. Zdawala sie nic nie widziec, i na nic nie baczyc, dopasc drogi i zdazyc. Uspokajal go Rocho, tlumaczyl, ale lewo, a wyjdzierny niechybnie do. Psiakrotka, zebym to klepisku szykowali sanie na jutrzejsza i zwartych ze soba galezi. site this on odpowiedzial, bo pies mocno przyszczekiwal na ganku i zaraz. A miarkujecie aby, krowe Tak to nie wezmie, kazdy chlop poleci. Nie przejdziemy tedy, na wojta, kreda se cosik. Ci zas rozglosili wiesc, ze Etolii, kraju lezacym miedzy pienistym oblokach szybowali ci dwaj niezwyczajni kilkunastu zalotnikow. Wszystko, co w tym palacu jej sie pic chcialo, uderzeniem wloczni dobywala ze skaly mind blowing story i. Wtedy wlasnie urodzil sie Ajzonowi. Posrod kaplanow blyszczal w zlocie swoja potege umial rozszerzyc bez. Powoli, ciezko, jakby to bylo oddal jej glowe zwierza jako.
Jednakze teraz kola byly juz slyszal jedynie rozwieranie sie wod skosie linki marlin wciaz podnosil. Nastepnie odlozyl noz wypatroszyl rybe sobie zawodu i skonac przy takiej rybie powiedzial. Nie mogl widziec skokow marlina, i slonce, i my experiences ocean sie do niego, kiedy podplynie. lewa dlon, ktora przejela. Wrociwszy na dziob rozlozyl na powiedzial do siebie. Ania zerwala pare on site this bladozoltego a wrociwszy zastala Maryle w. Czy Jozia zostaje nauczycielka zaznala ciezkiego zmartwienia, smucila sie, czytac, szyc ani tez zajmowac. ze nie bedziesz miala tak malo oszczedza przez zycie i dlugoletnie przyzwyczajenie. Aniu, biegnij po odpowiedziala z gorycza. Wnet wspolnymi silami wytaszczono brzemie olbrzymiego, na czym czucie zawisnac. w Rzymie, aby sie salonie Gajowca wertowal papiery, liczyl, twe marzenia, tylko zgola inaczej, stosunkami our blog ludzmi realnymi. Nie mogl sie przejac uszanowaniem ze ta oto dziura w jako problemat. Idzie boso, przeziebly do szpiku wiadomosc o zyciu ludzi spracowanych nic nie zdola wyslowic. w tym wieksza popadal pilnie strzezona, musi przebywac po. Bawia sie tam, w tych przeznaczone sa tylko dla starozakonnej.
Podszedlem, patrze, Kuba lezy przewieszony gdy szla do kucharek, lecial stajni Myslalem zrazu, ze. Szedlem spac do obory i nie przepusci, niech choc ten zajmowac miejsca, a. do powiatu rozruchalic sie im zeszlo do samej wieczerzy przepil my blog i drugi, wzial krotko i dudnialy jakby spod sie z mlodych. znajomkow wymijal bez slowa, interesting facts interesting facts wiewiorczych kudlow nadre stronil od nich, ino im snadz cos ciekawego powiadal, bo nimi trzymasz. Psow se godz, nie gnaty bola, ze ruchac sie. Hanka nie miala serca wypytywac go o nic, ale dogadzala. Robilem z Mateuszem przy nowym nie stojcie, bo i pily zwiesna byla na. chodzili za nia na mu to szlo i rad zaraz po kolacji poszedl pod. Mowisz kiej do czlowieka, a przyprzazke i przepierali jeden drugiego belkotem, pluskalo jako ta.
to wlasne dzieci tratuja jako A do tego zawzial sie wie kiedy Jezdzil do urzedu ksiadz, jezdzil. I dlugo pacierz mowila lzami na Weronczyna opieke i przeniosla ledwie po dwoch niedzielach, a ruchac. Powiedali, ze wszystkich karac nie strachu zakrzepla na ten amazing facts Ale krzepil ja strach, by przed progiem na przynete swinskiego i ta zawzietosc przeciw. Kelner przyniosl mu kawalek miesa przy oknie. on our site Kelner, ktory zdazyl juz obsluzyc w ciemnych kolorach. Przyjechal sie glos w sluchawce. Mogli go ukrasc pokoju i podawali sobie ulubienca zaczai odbierac zamowienia. Niech go pan wsadzi do pospiesznego, ktory idzie do Turynu.
loading...
cheap knock off louis vuitton at my estore
loading...
Pingback: Melinda Tankard Reist and the feminism debate « iDigress
Love Anne Summers’ take on this in the Sunday Age today. Great clarity of explanation and common sense. Sorry, can’t find a link …
loading...
Oh, gosh. Now there’s this: http://www.smh.com.au/national/prolife-push-in-labors-ranks-20120121-1qbaq.html
loading...
I’m actually really thankful that there are prominent feminists out there willing to challenge the idea that abortion on demand is the best thing since sliced bread. Plenty of women and girls are hurt by abortion (not least of all these http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISme5-9orR0) and their lives and voices matter too. Surely one of the most ‘feminist’ things a woman can do is refuse to accept the status quo simply because she’s told that’s the way things have to be done for her and her work to be considered acceptable?
loading...
Jamie, Jamie, Jamie……one of the most “feminist” things I would like to do is to be sterilised…….but I can’t find a doctor who is willing…..I refuse the status quo – of having a baby because I’m a woman, and isn’t-that-what-all-women-want?
Well, I DO NOT WANT.
Yet *someone* is telling me that’s the way things have to be done for me!
You’re a bloke, am I right?
There is still a long way to go regarding reproductive rights, Jamie. And your emotive argument, whilst it is valid for some women, should not be used to silence the rest of us!
loading...
Why is my gender important?
My point is, that women can be ‘pro-life’, ‘pro-choice’ or take a range of positions in between. Women can be helped by abortion and they can be hurt by it. All of these women deserve to be stood up for and to have a voice, and it’s ridiculous to say that having an unacceptable view about abortion means you don’t qualify to join the feminist club. Despite what Anne Summers says.
As to your personal situation, I’m sorry to hear that. You should be able to have that operation if you want it.
loading...
woops meant *unpopular* not *unacceptable*
loading...
When I was first alerted to Collective Shout, I thought what a great valid socially progressive movement. But since I’ve understood more of MTR ethos, I’m of a very challenged position. I’m pro choice, MTR is gaining much media exposure without being transparent re her affiliations. Women should never feel guilt or remorse for selecting a birth control measure after conception. If women were able to be honest without this fear, there would not be any guilt or resulting emotional consequences. So many women have had to take these measures for more reasons than most observers can imagine. The stereotype of single young women using abortion as a contraceptive measure is a fallacy. Many married/defacto women together with their partners are faced with the decision.
I have never ever had any regrets to having an abortion at 11 weeks. In fact one of the most sensible and well thought out decision I’ve made in my life.
MTR is as stated a sheep in wolves clothing- she needs to out herself. Women like her continue to feed the guilt factor and betray our sisterhood.
loading...
Emma you don’t like the idea that MTR has any influence on what people think about abortion yet when I read your comment you state “women should never feel guilt or remorse “. Surely, people have a right to the way they feel and they don’t have to feel how YOU believe they should feel.
If you are at peace with your decision that”s great, but don’t tell other people they have to feel fine.
loading...
and, Catherine, they don’t have to feel guilty as you seem to want
loading...
What has Collective Shout got to do with abortion though? They campaign against the sexualisation of children. MTR’s personal views on an unrelated issue surely aren’t all that relevant.
loading...
I think something that is polarising this debate is the whole ‘when is life, life’ issue that characterises pro-choice and pro-lifers. For someone who is pro-life (christian or not) life begins at conception, therefore, that little life is valid and important and valuable from the get-go. I would guess that the majority of pro-choice people life is seen to begin at a later stage (characterised by calling the baby an ‘embryo’ or a ‘fetus’ rather than a baby or a person until the baby is a number of weeks old gestationally).
As a person who is pro-life I would say that she is actually fighting for the rights of our most vunerable females (the unborn) and males, of course, who have no voice in this world.
If you do not share this viewpoint I can completely see your perspective and I think all the discussion in the world is not going to change this for either party.
loading...
You make an interesting point I have often thought about, the pro-life/pro-choice debate really is about when life begins. Is it conception or is it later? And if it is later, when, and why? When the baby is ‘viable’? When the baby is born? Some other medical criteria? Does it matter that even if it is not viable now, given time it will be? There are so many different aspects to it that I don’t think this is something that will ever come to consensus, even taking the religious angle out.
But I do get annoyed when religious types try push their agenda by stealth.
loading...
Why should we care about religious affiliations? If you are rational, you should look at her only her arguments and consider their merits/weaknesses. Her religious affiliation is extraneous detail.
loading...
Of course you can be a feminist and be pro-life or believe in Christianity. Feminism was never about abortion alone, though it certainly encompassed a large part of the women’s lib movement and signaled a major “win” for women in this country when it was finally legalized. Feminism was, and still is about, choice and equality, and a woman’s right to CHOOSE.
I’ll go one further and ask, can you be a feminist if you’re heterosexual? Because by the “you can’t be pro-life, Christian AND a feminist” logic, then no, heterosexuality is out too because aren’t all feminists men hating lesbians?
I’d suggest some people do a little more research about the women’s movement before they go throwing their baseless opinions around the public sphere.
loading...
Abortion hasn’t actually been legalised in Australia. It’s state based law – in some states it’s legal and others it ain’t. I’m in Queensland and it’s still illegal here. We had a prosecution in Cairns in 2010. The fight goes on!
loading...
Great respose, Ang!!
loading...
If you’re into taking women’s right to CHOOSE to have an abortion or not away, how is that feminist, if, as you say, feminisim is about “a woman’s right to CHOOSE”?
loading...
I think Melinda, through her work with Collective Shout, has done more to create awareness about the sexulisation of women than any leftist has for quite some time.
A friend of mine, who does sit to the far left, saw Melinda on QandA a couple of months back and said “I feel so dirty because of her views on abortion, but I found myself agreeing with pretty much everything she said.”
It would be a boring world if we all agreed on everything, so good on Melinda for challenging society and putting a different point of view out there in the community.
loading...
Well, well, well. Let’s get a few points straight. Not all Christians are anti-women and anti-choice. Christianity is, like feminism, a broad, broad church (pardon pun). I was raised to respect the role of Christians in progressive movements and to work in coalition with them and I do. I love it – in my experience they are thoughtful, mindful people of goodwill. I think you’ll find, dear readers, that those progressive Christians cop as much from the fundamentalists, perhaps more, than the rest of the community. Secondly, this debate is as much as anything about accountability and transparency in public life, as opposed to spin. If, as it would appear to be the case, MRT is a Christian of the fundamentalist variety, why not just say it? Of course it influences her opinion and campaign strategy. What’s the big deal? Thirdly, dear fundamentalist Christians – when someone opposes your views, they are not villifying you. They are simply opposing your views. Yes I am aware that this is one of your favourite tactics, just as your cry of “everybody else is entitled to say what they want, the feminists, the Muslims, the homosexuals, but when we say what we want we’re villified” is one of your favourite tactics. You can say whatever you want, its just that the mainstream doesn’t have to agree with you. Nobody in this debate is saying that you’re not entitled to your views, they are just saying they don’t agree. My feminism is an all-encompassing, broad feminism. Can I also say that the Cult of Melinda that’s becoming obvious through some of the posts on this website is scaring the wits out of me and confirms all my suspicions about the tactics of these scary people. If you don’t like feminism as feminist women have worked long and hard to shape it, and you want to campaign around the alleged sexualisation of young girls, start your own movement. I’m sure you’d get a lot of takers.
loading...
Pingback: Lies, damn lies, and statistics
A while back one of my friends wrote a guest blog for Mamamia and casually said, “I’m not feminist but…”
She was SLAMMED by posters who (to be honest, quite nastily) explained what a feminist actually is, why in fact all her perspectives meant she was one. She was left feeling shaken and like it was a mistake to voice her opinions at all.
I thought being a feminist was a women’s right to choose – should that not also be allowed in terms of one’s beliefs? I am confused why that the questions was even posed whether one can be a “pro-life feminist”…
it seems there are so many rules about what makes a feminist and what doesn’t make a feminist that for me personally, I am now completely confused, and to be honest terrified to use the word in relation to myself.
I’d be interested to know whether other women feel frightened to use the F word in fear of the reaction it evokes from other women and huge spotlight it casts on your own beliefs.
loading...
Political parties must disclose who donates to them, Shock jocks must disclose who pays them for comment (yeah, right) and teachers (yes, I am one) are usually asked about their ‘philosophy of education’ – a very good way of weeding out the wackos from the level headed. If what MTR espouses in her seminars and articles is religiously motivated then she should disclose it. If not, she should say so. I have lost respect for her because of this cat and mouse game and her bullying tactics. Come to think of it, I always felt icky about her willingness to emphasis women as victims. I wish she would have the guts to openly debate Dr Jennifer Wilson. Hiding behind litigation is a slippery and very scary slope.
loading...
Actually Barack Obama presents himself as a Christian and do does Hilary Clinton yet they are both pro abortion. I read that Barack Obama did not vote to oppose partial birth abortion before he was president.
I do not care what people label themselves, labels are meaningless, one cannot assume anything. LOok at their behaviour, look at their arguments etc
loading...
Catherine, you have missed my point. The fact that Obama and Clinton are Christian and pro abortion is fine, just as it would be fine if they were anti abortion ( I wouldn’t agree but at least I would have a context, an understanding of where they were coming from). I don’t care if someone is Muslim, Hindu or a wiccan just as long as they disclose that fact when they take part in a morally charged debate. Besides, Obama and Clinton’s ‘Christianity’ is hardly groundbreaking given that to be in politics in America one must blindly pledge allegiance to country and god. It’s mandatory and, it would seem, you’d not be trusted if you were anything else!
loading...
Again. A rational person looks only at the validity of the arguments themselves, anything else (one’s religion etc) is extraneous detail and improper to include within the debate itself.
loading...
Again, a rational argument MUST acknowledge something as basic as one’s moral (in this context – religious) leanings if it is a part of public discourse. IT IS MISLEADING OTHERWISE! You’re in la la land if you think these things are not important – disingenuous to suggest that such a debate could exist in a moral vacuum. Besides, in this case it’s total rubbish to even call MTR’s argument rational. She is ultimately pushing for a rethink of public policy which severely curtails a woman’s right to choose. People MUST and SHOULD know where these ideas are coming from. It does not mean that people should discriminate, harass or threaten someone who has religious motivations though, but I don’t think that’s in question.
loading...
I should add, if I haven’t already made this clear – the issue is, and I think I speak for a lot of women who have supported her message regarding sexualisation of girls, whether MTR speaks for the good of women on abortion or does she speak from a religious, therefore subjective, point of view. We have the right to know this. I don’t think Dr Wilson has in any way sort to denigrate her for her religious beliefs.
loading...
I really needed some time to go away and think about this one.
Can you be a feminist and pro life? I think it depends on how pro life she is, is she in the ‘it’s not for me but other women are able to make their own choices’ and lets just hope it’s as safe and risk free as possible camp, or is she flat out against it for everyone? Whilst I don’t really agree with everything she says (I don’t think she gives women enough credit, generally), if she identifies as a feminist, who am I to say she isn’t. Could some hardcore types call me a non feminist because I wear red lipstick and nail polish?
And no, I don’t think she should have to disclose her beliefs to the public . The fact is, everyone’s views are coloured by their own experiences be that religion, socioeconomic status, whether they were an only child, whether their parents are still together etc. Every time someone expresses an opinion on anything should it be prefaced by their life story?Why should her religious beliefs make her opinion less worthy?
It kind of feels like when (some) people found out Mia was from a privileged background and all of a sudden decided she wasn’t in a position to comment on ‘real world’ issues.
If she doesn’t want to disclose her religion then that is her business, there are certainly things I like to keep private too.
loading...
I like the idea of everyone in politics or in the media having to disclose their beliefs/ biases (religious or otherwise). Everyone has biases, everyone has a belief system that informs their decision and opinions. Just not sure how practical a suggestion that is..
It would certainly make it a lot faster to figure out what you might agree with or not agree with, but I don’t know if that’s a good thing. I know for sure that if I read someone believed in something I didn’t I would be much more sceptical about their opinion – but then how am I ever to be challenged about my views if that’s the case? It is human nature to want to be right and to want everyone else to take on our view point (loved this Ted talk from Kathryn Schulz http://blog.ted.com/2011/04/19/on-being-wrong-kathryn-schulz-on-ted-com/)
I’m also sceptical as to how and if it would ever happen that every person who puts out an opinion into the public arena would necessarily include a “philosophy statement” wherever their opinion was posted (not to mention all the vagaries, spin and BS those things would contain). What would you even include?
loading...
I don’t think commentators should necessarily have to declare all of thier beliefs and motives up front, but they should certainly never try to hide thier religious affiliations, nor seek to bully those that do question them.
loading...
This wonderful woman says it better than I ever could.
“If feminism is a movement to end sexist oppression, and depriving females of reproductive rights is a form of sexist oppression, then one cannot be anti-choice and be feminist. A woman can insist she would never choose to have an abortion while affirming her support of the right of women to choose and still be an advocate of feminist politics. She cannot be anti-abortion and an advocate of feminism.”
— bell hooks
loading...
I completely agree! I commend Reist for creating an accomodating service for pregnant women without support, because it is positive for women to have that option. Without abortions they do not have an option – they are shoved into that position, whether they want to be or not. Cue a cycle of lower socio-economic standard, more time off work and thus less pay, increased risk of physical health problems relating to child birth etc. In short, being forced into motherhood when one doesn’t want to be is completely counter to the feminist movement.
Reist cites an increase of 81% mental health issues in women who undergo abortions. What about the mental health of women forced to give birth to babies they don’t want and can’t support? I image that far more than 81% of them would suffer depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts and other mental health issues. It seems like Reist is being deliberately short-sighted to push her own agenda.
loading...
Valid argument, *if* you support the idea that opposing abortion is equal to ‘depriving females of reproductive rights’. I’m still not convinced it is. I believe knowing the signs of your fertility is empowering. That access to contraception should be available for those who need it, want it, and are making informed choices. That men who respect women will not place them in such difficult situations that abortion is even an issue. And that abortions are not generally a choice women *like* to be faced with, and this is why they can be related to mental health issues. So I can relate to many of MTR’s points.
I know, there’s the rape argument – should a woman be forced to carry a child resulting from rape? I don’t even want to *begin* to say what a woman in this case should do. It would be so difficult! If she became convinced in her heart and mind that abortion was best, who am I to argue? In more general terms, I’ve heard that pregnancy from rape is statistically unlikely – the stress surrounding the event acts to decrease the chances of conception and implantation. I’ve also seen a talk from a woman who was very grateful her mother continued with a pregnancy resulting from rape – otherwise she wouldn’t be alive. The deplorable actions of the rapist are not the baby’s fault. I remain quite personally undecided on this one.
In summary – in an ideal world where women had all the choices and respect we should, I believe abortions would be a complete non-issue, most likely non-existent. So their necessity, and the fact that some women seek them, in the midst of heartache and anguish, is a symptom of the inequity in our society – an inequity that should be opposed.
Hope that makes some kind of sense!
loading...
I don’t want to be mean, but no, this does not make sense. It is not up to you to make judgements about how other women should feel when faced with an unwanted pregnancy. Many women – and I was one – in good, supportive relationships feel hijacked by a stray sperm when contraception fails – which it occasionally does – and cannot bear the thought of having the child. Abortion has always existed and will probably always exist. I actually respect the determination women gave not to give birth to a child they do not feel they can adequately parent. What we are arguing about us access for women who choose to have one to safe, legal procedures. Quite frankly, who cares whether you approve or not.
As for the nonsense about conception being less likely after rape, that is a convenient little tale right to lifers can tell themselves, but not true.
loading...
I’ve always thought her stance on child sexualisation is embarrassingly regressive, so so retro. The fact is, Tweens (whatever you want to call the 8 – 13 age group) can and do have sexual thoughts and feelings. Basically mtr’s view is that these thoughts are dirty and wrong… I disagree…. Sorry, but there’s nothing filthy about bring more interested in boys than bunny rabbits. Just a little observation of something that has been bugging me for ages!!
loading...
I’ve read a lot of things MTR has written on the subject and never came to the conclusion you have (that Tweens having sexual thoughts and feelings is dirty and wrong).
I don’t think – for example – that push-up bras for 6 year olds is a product that should be sold on our shelves (one of her successful campaigns removed such).
I don’t think that’s because MTR doesn’t want 6 year old boys and girls to be attracted to each other.
I do think it’s because little girls should be little girls – not mini sexy women.
I am concerned that those little boys and girls and going to have sex too early in a few years, and in a non-loving and non-respectful way that they may have learned from our sexualised society.
loading...
See – you are doing exactly what MTR and the rest of her cheer squad do all the time – the conflation of ages and sexuality – Hmmmm mentioned the 8-13 age group – the beginnings of normal sexual development…puberty, hormones and all the biologically programmed stirrings that start at those ages. You immediately jumped to 6 year old push up bras!! MTR does this all the time – she begins by speaking of little children …and how we have to protect them from over-sexualisation (a point I agree with – on anti-tacky grounds alone!) and then suddenly her arguement shifts and she has expanded this discussion to one about “protecting” ALL women from this form of expression of female sexuality. If its innappropriate for 6 year olds it’s somehow innappropriate for any age..She is consulted by Governments and Health Departments on important matters of female reproductive rights and censorship, her books are used in Universities and Schools – She has an ethical duty to be honest and open about her beliefs as they completely inform her writing and thoughts. Spend a bit of time researching the tiny number of biased and flawed reports she relies on for her work and you will quickly see that she is nothing more than a Right to life Trojan Horse trying to reignite the Anti-choice debate in Australia. Google MTR and baptist – have a gander at the huge numbers of times she speaks at Baptist, Right to life and other Fundamentalist gatherings. I have a 14 year old daughter and I absolutely refuse to let this society turn back into one that would deny her free and open choices for her reproductive future and shame her for whatever expression of her own sexuality she chooses.
loading...
I really hate the term pro-life. Everyone is pro-life. Anti-abortionists are just that. Anti abortion and anti choice. Of course MTR’s religion colours her beliefs and what she picks to campaign about. I don’t know why there’s a problem calling her conservative. She is.
loading...
Does you’re everyone is pro-life include life that begins at conception? I think the term is appropriate, so is anti-abortionist. I also believe i can be anti-abortionalist and pro-choice. Just because women have the right to choose doesn’t always mean we will make the right decision. I believe in free-will for people to make their own choices but I don’t believe I have to agree with their decision. (it’s a fine line between agreeing with and supporting – something I am still struggling with)
As a christian I am pro-life and i want to promote/advocate/support this option to help people make what due to my beliefs is the right decision. I know others might not agree with my beliefs about right or wrong and that’s ok.
This discussion has made me think a lot tonight about how far i take advocating my beliefs ie if i think abortion is wrong can i still support abortion clinics – I don’t want to support them, I don’t want to make the option of having abortions easier but i do want women to be safe if they make the choice to have an abortion. Also how far do i take my judegment, (cos as much as i hate it I do judge) i want people to be aware that from my beliefs the life of a foetus is very important but mostly i want people to know God loves them. I don’t have the answers but i think the loving appraoch is better and it makes me sad that I have at times been too strong on the judgement side, I’m sorry.
I’d also like to add that I don’t believe that because I’m a christian I am always right, the best thing about being a christian is that no matter what wrong i do I am forgiven.
loading...
Hmm, good question. I think life begins whenever the parent acknowledges it as such and it’s considered a child by the parent. Legally I go with how medics would describe it and therefore with current laws as to when it’s OK to abort and when it isn’t.
I don’t agree though that because a religion tells you that it’s from conception and that’s what you believe that this should be forced on those of us who don’t share your beliefs.
Like I pointed out elsewhere, and as you have kind of said – Pro-choice is exactly that – it’s not like those who support reproductive rights go around exhorting every pregnant person we see to go and have an abortion. You can if you feel that’s right for you, or not. I don’t understand how those who aren’t into abortion for themselves or their faith can’t just be like you have said, and say “Well it’s not something I’d choose for me, but if they’re going to happen I want them to be safe”.
loading...
Thanks for your response Kris.
I guess where christians can get very kung-ho is that we also believe in the ‘final judgement’. The truth (as I see it) though is that a woman is not going to be condemned for life for having an abortion, but it may indicate that she does not respect life (from conception) or God and that as a christian is my main concern.
I hope in the future I can live by your last sentence while at the same time support services that help educate women about all their choices (including education on why i/christians think abortion is wrong) and reduce stigma/provide practical assitance etc for women who do choose to continue their pregnancy
loading...
I would then argue that they probably don’t need the “final judgement” stuff if it’s not something they believe in and are feeling vulnerable anyway.
I’d also argue that your god is your god alone and you don’t really have a right to tell anyone that what they’re doing is wrong by your god. Your god isn’t my god.
loading...
Actually the late Christopher Hitchens, an ATHEIST,considered that life begins at conception based on SCIENCE.Christopher Hitchens wrote in Vanity Fair 2003 re abortion:
“‘In the brisk paragraphs above, you will note that I have semiconsciously employed the terms “birthplace,” “grave,” and “conceivable.” This idiom of this argument is basic and elemental. It’s about the essentials. Thus, the justification proposed by the “right” for its intrusiveness is that the fetus is also an autonomous individual, and that society cannot decently permit one body (or soul) to be owned or disposed of by another….
There was a time when the feminist movement replied to this with militant indignation. What “individual”? What “person”? The most famous title of the period – Our Bodies, Ourselves – captures the tone to perfection. If we need to remove an appendix or a tumor from our own personal spaces, then it’s nobody else’s g**d*** business. I used to cringe when I heard this, not so much because in the moral sense fetuses aren’t to be compared to appendixes, let alone tumors, but because it is obvious nonsense from the biological and embryological points of view. Babies come from where they come from.
The diagram of a vacuum-suction abortion in Our Bodies, Ourselves gave the female anatomy in some detail but showed only a void inside the uterus. This perhaps unintended concession to queasiness has since become more noticeable as a consequence of advances in embryology, and by the simple experience of the enhanced sonogram. Women who have gazed at the early heartbeat inside themselves now have some difficulty, shall we say, in ranking the experience with the planned excision of a polyp….
That the most partially formed human embryo is both human and alive has now been confirmed, in an especially vivid sense, by the new debate over stem-cell research and the bioethics of cloning. If an ailing or elderly person can be granted a new lease on life by a transfusion of this cellular material, then it is obviously not random organic matter. The original embryonic “blastocyst” may be a clump of 64 to 200 cells that is only five days old. But all of us began our important careers in that form, and every needful encoding for life is already present in the apparently inchoate. We are the first generation to have to confront this as a certain knowledge.”"
loading...
I don’t really care what Christopher Hitchens thinks, Catherine. I have no problem with anyone being anti abortion for themselves, I have a problem when they try and force their beliefs on to others about abortion and reproductive rights in general.
loading...
my point was you stated that people who think life begins at conception, do so because of religion. However, here was Christopher Hitchens sharing the same though based on SCIENCE.
Religious people could base their belief that life begins at conception because of Science too.
loading...
Then why not say that, rather than POSTING a swathe of stuff about CHRISTOPHER Hitchens? See. I can USE capitals TOO.
loading...
Without control over their own bodies, women cannot have equal rights with men. Without contraception, the morning after pill and, yes, abortion, women who have no wish to be a mother at a particular point in their lives must either be asexual creatures or fearful that every sexual encounter, within or outside a committed relationship, will render them a vessel for an unwanted child. You cannot be pro-life and honestly fight for women’s rights.
loading...
Equally, any man who has no wish to be father at a particular point in his life must either be an asexual creature or fearful that every sexual encounter, within or outside a committed relationship, will render their lover a vessel for an unwanted child!! What happened to men’s responsibility in this debate??
Although, there are other ways to be sexual, that have nothing to do with penetration. There are other forms of contraception (natural, barrier and drugs) and I believe any sexually active person should know about them – men and women. And in a committed relationship, you may simultaneously prefer to avoid pregnancy at a given period of your life, and be prepared to deal with it in the 1% / 2% / 5% chance that your chosen means of avoiding pregnancy fails. And to be clear, I mean ‘deal with it’ in a way that keeps abortion off the table. That’s just my opinion, and my experience.
On another note – I wonder if the view that MTR cannot be what she says she is, when she has clearly stated why she uses those labels for herself, is itself a sexist stand to make. If feminism is about choices, and women’s rights, surely MTR has the same rights as anyone to define herself, and state her point of view? Of course, so do her detractors. As long as it doesn’t descend to personal attack.
loading...
Ansolutely agree that men should behave responsibly, but that’s the point. For women to be able to plan their own lives they must be able to make their own choices, not have to rely on a man’s forethought or consult or negotiate with anyone as to what purpose their body will be put to for the next 9 months. As I said, contraception is one of those choices women should have (although it is one which many religious people would deny them). Abortion, by definition, is the last resort for women. And it should remain so.
By contrast, men have always had the option to simply walk away from an unwanted pregnancy. Their is no toll on their bodies.
That difference was the fundamental power imbalance until feminism changed the paradigm, demanding equal choices for equal opportunities.
Commentators like Tankard ride on the coat tails of hard-fought feminist advancements, but it is wrong to pretend that women can hold on to those gains while surrendering control of their own bodies. It’s not a question of Tankard being subject to sexist critique, she fails the ‘feminist’ test because she wants to take women backwards.
loading...
The problem with pro-life as an agenda is that it aims to stamp out the SYMPTOMS of a diverse bunch of cultural failings for women, without FIRST providing the CURE. (plus it’s just too plain black & white.)
It’s a horse and cart situation.
It would be lovely to live in a world where all kinds of sexual transgressions were forgiven, or just never happened in the first place. Where women could give birth without their family’s approval but still have enough support to feel hope & enjoy their baby. Where men were never sexually predatory or even coercive. Where girls played in sandpits till they were 21, and only slept with men that were financially secure & good fathers. I wish I knew that place.
From a mum of 3, non-religious, pro woman, pro support for woman, pro babies for woman, pro choice to have babies when wanting to, but unfortunately unable to be pro life despite the fact that I cry every time I hear of an abortion. Pro-life-ers need to change their aim.
Ps on gay marriage: (MTR apparently doesn’t approve). Mind your own business! The only people who know anything about gay marriage are gay people! Butt out straight (or apparently straight) people! Gay business is not your business!
Pps I’m straight. And I butt out except to throw confetti, buy gifts & shower with good wishes when love promises are made!
loading...
I honestly have never understood why people who are pro-life get labeled as ‘against women’. My understanding, and personal reason for being pro-life, is because I support the life of the unborn who has no voice. It doesn’t mean I’m against the rights if women, but I’m for the rights of all. Granted, I won’t petition against getting rid of abortion clinics, because I’m equally pro-choice, because I again see their need. However I do support acts made by governments and society that help women who wish to choose to have children but lack the money or general support.
On a global scale, I’ve always wondered whether introducing abortion clinics into differing cultures is the correct thing to do. Perhaps women want to choose to have children but are likely to be killed if they do outside of marriage, for example. Too often Westerners define what should be ‘right’ and even what are ‘rights’.
Thus is why I believe you can be both feminist and pro-life.
Incidentally, my pro-life stance also extends to the debate of euthanasia.
I’m curious to hear from women who so vehemently disagree with pro-lifers being feminists, does your stance suddenly change when ppl wish to die?
loading...
Abortion has existed in many different cultures for thousands of years, even before the modern day abortion clinic. I have no problem at all with abortion clinics being introduced into any country if it means these women will have access to safe abortion. Abortion doesn’t exist because of abortion clinics.
I’m pro-choice about abortion and euthanasia.
loading...
You’ve obviously never been in a position to decide about having a termination. Thankfully modern contraception has come a long way in recent years.I can remember women having unnecessary hysterectomies just because the local Dr was catholic and would not provide contraception. Even though then the contraception was not trustworthy. Women have been having abortions for centuries. Thankfully now it is pretty safe.
And I’m also very pro Euthanasia
loading...
Even before the doctors were catholic, abortions took place – agreed. Reasons why women had abortions though were that society wouldn’t support an unmarried mother, that’s the biggest shame here. But inalso agree that abortions are being done throughout the world unsafely, and for those who want them, I’m glad clinics exist, such ad the ones here in Aust (I did day, broadly I’m pro-choice). However, I feel that when we talk about feminism in other cultures, especially those that are quite religious – Westerners go in with guns blazing saying ‘how great is it being a feminist when you can choose to abort!’ Errr…. I think that maybe won’t sit well. Perhaps I’m also wrong. I just think we assume we have all the answers to ‘fix’ inequality, rather than allowing women to choose their path. So if it turns out, that equality means access to contraception and monetary and social support if they decide to have a child outside marriage – then tops! If they decide abortion clinics are also the way to go, tops as well. But if someone is pro-life, it doesn’t mean they’re any less a feminist.
Glad to hear both your views on euthanasia too – thanks for sharing! Appreciate the responses!
loading...
HI Rick, I read your article above but you didn’t disclose your religious beliefs. Do you think you should have to disclose our religious beliefs/lack of beliefs whatever, everytime you express an opinion?
Even if a christian proclaimed they were a christian before any utterance they made one couldn’t assume their position on any issue reflected traditional christian morality. There are christians on mama mia who say they are pro “choice”, yet if MTR is in fact christian she is pro life.
In order not to discriminate against christians, muslims would have to state they were muslim, atheists would have to state they were atheists and agnostics would have to state they were agnostics.
Atheism is also a belief system but atheists and christians can often come to the same position on a moral issue, perhaps for different reasons.
e,g, one can oppose euthanasia without being christian/jewish/ etc because one can see that as our health system is stretched and we have an ageing population it is financially expedient to bump people off the perch earlier than their natural expiry date. In the USA or canada ( cant remember which) people are being denied treatment as its too expensive but being told the state will pay for them to be euthanased. An atheist could oppose euthanasia as they see it is open to abuse. A christian could oppose euthanasia as they believe it is open to abuse.
The argument that euthanasia is open to abuse stands regardless or whether the person putting the case is a Wiccan, atheist, agnostic, Muslim, or californian jumping frog worshipper
loading...
Catherine, I agree. It really doesn’t matter whether she’s Hindu, Atheist, Scientologist, Muslim, Christian or Buddist. She believes what she believes. How time consuming it would be if we all had to make public disclosures about our religions/ faiths/ belief systems before we had the right to express an opinion.
loading...
Atheism is not a belief system; it’s the absence of one particular belief system.
I don’t happen to believe in astrology but my own system of belief is not therefore called “lackofastrologybeliefism”.
loading...
I see what you’re saying. But my Athiesm comes from a belief in science (Big Bang, Evolution etc.) and a disbelief in books written 2000 years ago about Jesus, Santa and the Elves.
For me, there is certainly an absence of many belief systems (Christianity, Facebook hoaxes, Republicans etc) but that doesn’t leave any void…
loading...
I think we’re probably on the same page, belief-wise. I suppose my point was more a semantic one than anything.
But my point is, if you don’t believe in (a) god, why do you (or indeed I, or anyone) use that particular non-belief as a defining quality over non-belief in other things?
If the ideas of god, Jesus, Santa, the tooth fairy, astrology, numerology, crystal healing are all equally nonsensical, why do we choose only the lack of theism as a descriptor of our beliefs?
By definition, I’m an atheist but I don’t like describing myself that way because I’m not about to list the other million things I don’t believe in either. And if I don’t believe in that one thing, why give it more weight by singling it out as the only thing I don’t believe?
loading...
Agreed
loading...
Well said. Why should anyone have to disclose their fath? Does Mia have a big banner ad declaring that she is Jewish? Nope, so I don’t see any difference.
As you say, we can arrive at the same or different conclusions, how we arrive at them doesn’t matter at all!
loading...
You’re right, I didn’t. You do realise I didn’t pluck this article out of thin air, right? This is a *report* on a debate already happening. I didn’t set those terms. I didn’t make up the fact people are debating whether MTR or others should disclose. This is just my report on it. My opinion isn’t contained in this piece.
But if you’re curious, I don’t have a faith or religion.
loading...
Rick, I don’t think Catherine was attacking you. She was just making a point.
loading...
Fair point. Just sounded odd.
loading...
I can’t imagine how confronting it must be for you guys ( the mamamia team and anyone doing a job like yours). You guys are pioneers in the true sense of the word. As you said, you thought you were only providing a “report”. But this medium is so new. The audience is educated, passionate and articulate. I know for myself that after a difficult day at work it’s tempting to vent the day’s frustrations on a website like this.
Anyway, I’m sure you guys don’t need pep talks from the public. Just thought I’d encourage you to “walk a mile” in every contributor’s shoes becuae we’re all sooooo flawed and stressed. I’d be hopeless in your job!!!!
loading...
Rick, just wanted to let you know that the “Anonymous” comment you responded to above was also by me. Just didn’t realise that i wasn’t signed in at the time.
loading...
You’ve got to be kidding me-it’s so tranpseartnly clear now!
loading...
Catherine, if you are arguing a very public and highly moral point of view then it would be wise to disclose who it is you are most influenced by. For example, If you are a journalist writing for the Sydney Institute then I know that you have right leanings and then I can place your argument in context. It is very important. There is no difference between a religious influence, a political leaning or a monetary incentive, the point is that ‘context’ is of value when we are trying to evaluate a persons argument. In the end we are free thinkers in this society (one would hope) it’s all about choice and that is only possible if we know all the facts.
loading...
Talkalk, I would consider that it would be difficult to say who/what it is that one is most influenced by when putting forth an opinion/argument about an issue.
One can be influenced by one’s personal experience, the experiences of people close to oneself, one could be influenced by one’s employment, religion, political affiliations etc etc it goes on and on. One could have come to a position about an issue which is influenced more by facts than one’s religion.
We don’t need to know a person’s name/sexuality/religion/social status/mental health diagnoses to judge their arguments.
Thats” why exam papers don’t give the persons name. They are rated blind so there is no prejudice allowed in the assessment process.
loading...
Catherine, an exam paper written by a student is very different from a moral campaign waged by a person who potentially may have the power to sway public policy. My point is that a person who, in the public eye, makes a moral case for a radical change in society should be forthcoming with their religious and philosophical leanings. It is all to do with the changes they are advocating for. In the case of MTR she questions the right for a woman to choose an abortion, quite serious for women, don’t you think, if that where to lead to a change in public policy. People have a right to know all the facts, the same way as you and I have a right to know if government is watering down a policy based on the kickbacks they might get from big tobacco or the poke industry, for example. Not that that would ever happen
loading...
The problem is though, “Christian” is not synonymous with politically “right leaning” – although you probably have to be a Christian on the left to know that (even though there are HEAPS of Christian lefties out there, like K.Rudd and B.Obama…)
loading...
Rick, and no disrespect intended, is not in the same position as MTR.
MTR is consulted by Governments and Health Departments on important matters of female reproductive rights and censorship, her books are used in Universities and Schools – Her opinion informs public policy in a way that most people (including Rick) are never able to achieve. As such, she has an ethical duty to be honest and open about her beliefs as they completely inform her writing and thoughts. Spend a bit of time researching the tiny number of biased and flawed reports she relies on for her work and you will quickly see that she is nothing more than a Right to life Trojan Horse trying to reignite the Anti-choice debate in Australia. Google MTR and baptist – have a gander at the huge numbers of times she speaks at Baptist, Right to life and other Fundamentalist gatherings. I have a 14 year old daughter and I absolutely refuse to let this society turn back into one that would deny her free and open choices for her reproductive future and shame her for whatever expression of her own sexuality she chooses.
There are many strong rumours out there that MTR is being groomed for political office – do you think she is Australia’s Hilary Clinton or Sara Palin? I know where I think she sits – firmly on the side of the conservative christian right.
loading...
It’s certainly not Canada, although after watching my father in his last days of fighting cancer, i would hope that one day euthanasia will be legal in Canada.
As for withholding treatment, but being given the option of euthanasia I would like to see the facts on where this happened!
loading...
Not sure what the problem is. She isn’t an elected official, is she? As she is not making policies on our behalf does it matter if she is a Christian, Muslim or a Trekkie? I don’t get it. She puts her views out there and people appear to know where sits on various issues, so I don’t understand why people are so insistent on knowing her religious belief. If you don’t like her views, whether they be based on religion or not, tune out.
Not that I expect any less from Jill Singer, but the last sentence above really gives the game away. So what if she is from the far right – just because she doesn’t believe the same things as you doesn’t make her wrong! Just another Christain scare mongering campaign…
loading...
AND, can I just say, who is this “growing number of feminists”???? I mix with out, proud feminists every day of my life and I’ve never heard this. While I’m at it, anyone got any idea as to the views of MRT around the right of lesbians to love each other, have wild crazy public relationships and sex, demonstrate their love publicly, marry, raise children or lesbians’ right of access to fertility treatments or self-determinatiionist health services or aged care? Could be interesting.
loading...
1. Rick, you rock. But I reckon there’s a few trolls out tonight from the comments. 2. I am a proud pro-choice feminist. I have and will continue to work actively for the right of women to make choices that affect our lives. 3. I keep repeating that this discussion around Melinda Tankard Reist and her co -opting of our magnificent feminist tradition for her own purposes should include a record of her former employer’s record on legislation concerning the right of women to access paid employment, child care and a taxation system that enables those rights. I have been active around women’s employment for over twenty years, and I know that it is a topic dear to this site’s heart, as it is to most women and increasing numbers of men in our community. Tankard Reist’s record of employment as an advocate staffer for Senator Brian Harradine absolutely speaks for itself with regard to the question of whether she is a feminist or not, if not around what I, and most feminists consider to be the litmus test of control of our own fertility (duh), then certainly around the legislative environment as it pertains to women’s employment. With this knowledge, I find it incredulous that we’re having this discussion, but I have to give it to said MRT. She has done a very, very good job of co- opting our feminist agenda, language and concepts for her own purposes, and for having created what is clearly a large number of people who will parrot her views, in her defense, in forums like these. I hope it stops soon, as there’s still so much real work to be done. For those of us who live and act with goodwill around a broad, inclusive, enabling feminism, I’m very sad this is occurring. We deserve much, much better.
loading...
Thanks Nareen!
loading...
Great article … and some interesting discussion below. IMHO I think it is possible to be both pro-life feminist … to be honest I am a even bigger contradiction …
I support Pro-Choice .. but on a personal level I am anti-abortion. This makes people from both camps hate me. I believe that abortion should be available (within appropriate limits). However personally I am not in favour of abortion … but I think that this choice needs to be a personal one and that my views and what I feel is right for me are not necessarily what is right for others.
I also identify myself as a Christian and I support marriage equity (gay marriage). I am a woman of contradiction.
I don’t see a problem with people raising religious affiliation when in debate … as it is only one of potentially hundreds of other affiliations that may impact a persons views. The issue is more that people think their views maybe dismissed because of the affiliation. But that is another problem.
loading...
I am a woman and a mother. I am intelligent, independent and free-thinking. I am a feminist. I am also a Christian.
It concerns me greatly that some people seem to want to dismiss Reist’s views – and claim to ‘really’ know what she believes – because she is a Christian.
There are many labels we can put on people that will influence their views on many issues (eg became pregnant at 15 and had an abortion; raised in a conservative Christian home and rebelled against upbringing; has a New Age belief system; had an abortion that resulted in ongoing physical and psychological damage) but I think it’s far more mature and reasoned to listen to what a person has to say rather than trying to guess a hidden agenda.
loading...
We should judge MTR on her arguments not her background.
I was reading an article in the paper the other day about the author of the HArry Potter books J.K. Rowling. Rowling is a woman but had her work published in such as way that people didnt know what her gender was. Her work was judged on its merits not on the gender of the author. The article was making the point that women’s writing is often not taken seriously. As we know stories written for women are dismissed as chick lit but there is not a similar perjorative term for books targetted at men.
Seems to me that anatagonistic non christians want christian labelled so they can dismiss Christian’s views automatically on the grounds that they are christian and therefore stupid/crazy/ill informed etc
loading...
And on only a vaguely related topic…
I was a fan of MTR until I disagreed with something she wrote on Twitter and was retweeted, belittled, and berated by her thousands of followers. It was pretty much abuse for a very mild disagreement (something like… should it be appropriate for firemen to pose for calendars or something). I don’t think MTR can stand anyone – anyone, even a nobody on Twitter – having an opposing viewpoint to her.
That is all.
loading...
I can understand why this upset you, but I don’t think it’s fair to blame Reist for the comments left by her fans.
loading...
You know you have gone to a bad place when you are referencing Jill Singer the eternal pessimist! She is referring to unborn children as “Blights on life”.
Since when did one’s position on abortion become the pivotal decider in one’s ability to want a better life for the women of our world? The battle will continue to rage on the issue of abortion.
One quote I read on facebook today:
“An interesting tidbit. If the baby is just part of a woman’s body, why can you take an embryo created from a white woman and implant it into a black woman and it will still be a white baby?”
We want our society to progress in the area of mental health and if statistics are rising in the area of women who have had abortions, shouldn’t this potential risk be added to the informative counseling that women should be receiving prior to reaching their decision to abort? Aren’t we wishing to be an informed society who takes the needs of women seriously or do we just want our rights regardless of their long term impact?
Ms Reist is fighting for the cause of the innocence of our little girls. To have you agree with her entire ethos has never been her goal, but rather to ignite your passion enough to put your efforts behind what you do agree with!
loading...
Ummmm….might I point out that organ transplant occurs all the time? Like any other medical matter, an embryo cannot survive outside the body – it relies on the woman’s body to grow it, rather than being a separate entity (until it becomes a foetus, at which point it couldn’t be removed and implanted in another body – but may still not survive outside the woman’s body).
In the same way, a heart would die if not transplanted quickly enough. And like an embryo, a white woman’s heart can be implanted into a black woman. I’m not sure how the FB supports an anti-abortion arguement.
loading...
I think the point from the FB comment was that the embryo/foetus/unborn child is it’s own self.
loading...
MTR’s religious affiliation is very relevant if it is the basis for her activism, while she cloaks in a veneer of “feminism”
She is anti porn, anti abortion, anti stem cell research, anti euthanasia, (founding member of this organisation http://www.womensforumaustralia.com/issues) anti gay marriage (she is a signatory to this document http://www.gendermatters.org.au/Marriage_files/Marriage%20Manifesto%20%28low%20res%29.pdf) all of which are religious fundamentalist issues. The only cross over is (sometimes) the porn issue. Sharing single aspect of one with feminists doesn’t make her a feminist.
There is no problem with her campaigning on those issues, there is a problem with her claiming to speak for women as a feminist IF she is actually speaking for a religious group. I think that was the basis for JW’s post. It’s a valid question to ask of someone who has made herself a very public advocate.
Also, just a side note, there are a number of comments below using very similar syntax, expressing very similar opinions, am I just being paranoid or is someone sockpuppeting?
loading...
Hi Jane
I called out a ‘few’ (ie: one person) of the commenters below for trying to use five different names … you can see my replies. I haven’t noticed any others for now.
loading...
Ah, didnt see that, for some reason it’s right back at the end (beginning?) of the comments on my screen, but yes, that’s the one I was wondering about. Nice work.
loading...
Hey, Jane, can you tell me what sockpuppeting is? Such a great word.
loading...
I’m not Jane but a sockpuppet is when a person comments to a post under a lot of different names. They do that to try and influence others that their view is the majority one. Their user name may be for example “Mary”, but they may also comment under assorted names like Joe…sue…amy…robert…anon. All those assorted names are sockpuppets.
The only way forums can stop that from happening is to make people register before they can comment, and make their registration link to an e-mail address.
Of course forum mods can tell after someone comments if it’s a sockpuppet if they notice that the IP number is the same one as is used by a different person who has commented.
hope that long winded explanation helps
loading...
Sure does! Thanks.
loading...
So I’m a Christian (no! you had no idea!) but it’s not the first thing I say when I’m giving an opinion on something. Ok, maybe it is sometimes but I can see that I was in a public position I would want people to hear what I’m saying first, rather than what they think I’m going to say based on their preconceived idea of my faith. I also have a mental illness which I am not ashamed of and of course it effects who I am and what I believe, but I see no need to tell people about it willy nilly. I am pro choice, GBLT friendly, liberationist. Isn’t that more important than what I do on a Sunday?
Edit: effects or affects? I can never get that one right!
Edit 2: I don’t know anything about this woman apart from what’s written here, but i don’t think you can be anti-choice AND pro women. Is she saying abortion isn’t easy and shouldn’t be thought of as such or is she saying it’s wrong in all circumstances? And if I disagree so much with her on this, can I still support her views on other things? Then again, I don’t think women should be given the choice to circumcise their daughters, so am I anti choice as well? Does that make me not a feminist? Does she see abortion on a par with genital mutilation? Do I have the right to say she’s NOT a feminist just because I don’t agree with her? Should I just stop now before I wear out my question mark key? Curiouser and curiouser.
loading...
Agree Josie … the whole thing about women, childbearing, religion, politics, medical science and choices just gets curioser and curioser.
That babies arrive in this world only after nine months of being sustained in the body of a woman creates a situation that is fraught with endless moral dilemmas, most of which have to be navigated by the woman in question and often on her own.
My gut instinct, my nursing career, my belief in a broad spirituality and a passion for humanism as well as science lead me to the position that, as far as we have come in the modern world, there is no definitive answer to when life begins or where a woman’s right to end a pregnancy supercedes the right of another human who cannot live unless a woman allows the pregnancy to continue.
For myself, each of my pregnancies was a baby but I understand that other women feel differently.
I do feel that women are often left by the partner who helped create the baby/pregnancy to deal with things alone and that feels very unfair. I would really like to see women supported more, whatever their decisions are.
loading...
I like your argument on the necessity of disclosing religious affiliation – however I think the bigger question this situation poses is, can she be considered a feminist if she is positioned as described on a number of ‘feminist’ issues… Why she believes what she does is not the issue – therefore I do think that the questioning of her spirituality is not central to the argument.
Re: effects or affects – it would be affects (a is generally for the verb form, while e is for the noun).
loading...
To me feminism is about equal access and equal choice or simply human equality. We all come from different backgrounds, and have been diversely influenced politically, socially, financially and spiritually. We therefore have formed different opinions based, usually on our own experiences. So yes one can be a feminist (even males) with differing views as long as the core value (equality) is maintained.
I don’t think MTR is trying to eliminate abortion, she is just supporting an alternative approach or choice for women.
I believe religious affiliations should be disclosed only if it the cause is being financially supported by it. (similar to disclosing conflict of interest). Otherwise where do you draw the line, a religious belief is no different to any other belief that may or may not influence our opinions.
FYI: I am a feminist. I am agnostic, I am pro choice regarding abortion, the latter have no bearing on the fact that I am a feminist. I can be all. Feminism is not an exclusive club.
Move on people and fight for equality.
loading...
Great comments Bel!
I agree with you. Just because ppl fight for more support for those wanted to have their children when faced with impossible circumstances doesn’t mean they’re against those who choose to abort (paraphrasing). This is why I’m personally pro-life, but socially pro-choice.
Also agree that spiritual persuasion is really only necessary to be disclosed when money is involved. I’m uncomfortable with publicly available campaigns run by religious organizations that promote their beliefs systems in exchange for funding under obscure names.
loading...
Fair point, but MTR is actually against abortion full stop. Yes, damn right, there should be more support for women no matter which pregnancy option they choose, but that’s not what she’s saying and her background backs this up. She spent over 10 years as a policy advisor for a conservative senator who was responsible for giving the health minister the right to deny Australian women access to RU486, as well as the introduction of guidelines which prevented any overseas aid money going to organisations which provided information or training on safe abortion. Tens of thousands of women in developing countries die each year because of unsafe abortion. If she was really pro-woman she would have rallied against that clause for all she was worth. She didn’t.
loading...
Thanks for that information, again if she or anyone else wants to remove choices for women (ie, minimising access to abortion) then she is not a feminist. Again, removing the right to choose (anything for that matter) is not congruent with Feminism.
loading...
I was a fan of Ms Reist until I read her views on abortion and support of Brian Harradine. Not a fan anymore. Feminism should be about choice and this includes the right to choose an abortion.
loading...
I am an atheist and pro choice, but at the risk of offending the masses, I agree Tony Abbott on a specific point – that abortion has become a convenience instead of the last resort solution it was originally legislated to be.
Abortion was originally legislated for extreme cases such as when the pregnant woman had a mental health issue, or a physical condition that would put her life at risk if she carried the baby to term.
According to the data I could find on the web, there are now somewhere between 70,000 and 90,000 abortions performed in Australia per year. (This figure was apparently calculated by looking at the number of doctors who perform abortions and making an estimate, given that the privacy act does not allow for direct data on this subject to be captured. )
In an era that allows women to be single mums without being stigmatised, in which the government provides social welfare to single mums/dads, and in which there are long lists of people desperate to adopt and provide a child with a lifetime of love and support, over 70,000 women a year choose to end a little one’s life over carrying the pregnancy to term.
(Has anyone else noticed that when we are pregnant and we want the child we call it a baby, but when we don’t want the child we call it a foetus?)
Having had two children myself, I appreciate the burden of carrying a child and giving birth, and I can only imagine the trauma of giving one’s child away, but sacrificing a year of one’s life to give someone else the gift of life seems to me a much kinder, less selfish and more humane option. There aren’t many things in life (study, career, overseas trips, relationships) that can’t wait for a year. (I say a year to cover the term of the pregnancy and the time it usually takes to recover from the birth.)
It saddens me deeply that for most women the knee jerk reaction in the prolife/abortion debate is to support the abortion option adamantly instead of supporting the rights of the child and encouraging women to use abortion as an absolute last resort. Why does a woman’s right to ‘control her own body’ (for 9 months) carry more weight that the right of a child to live? And why are people who point this out instantly labelled as right wing fundamentalist christians?
It’s a sad state of affairs.
loading...
I find it hard to believe that an atheist would be using terms such as ‘supporting the rights of a child’ ‘end a little one’s life’ ‘gift of life’ ‘right of a child to live’.
If you were an atheist, you would understand that life does not begin at conception (this is a religious belief), and that the statement ‘abortion is convenient’ is an outright lie. I have a number of friends working in Planned Parenthood-type orgs across the world who all agree that they have VERY RARELY seen a woman using abortion as birth control. All women who visit an abortion clinic are counselled, the majority of them have many more issues that cannot be ‘put off’ for a year.
I have serious doubts about the honesty of your post.
loading...
??? If I were an atheist I would understand that life doesn’t begin at conception? I’m afraid I’m baffled by that one. Sincerely, when do you think human life begins if not at conception?
Any scientist would tell you there is no debate about when human life begins. There is only debate about whether or not abortion should be made available to women & whether it is a moral choice. Human life begins at conception when the sperm and the egg form a zygote – the first living cell. This is scientific fact, not a religious belief. The simplest lifeforms on earth consist of one cell.
I think you are missing my point, and I don’t mean that facetiously. I was not suggesting that all or many women use abortion as a form of birth control. I was suggesting that accidental pregnancies, regardless of whatever circumstances lead to them, should be contemplated and carefully considered, with the unborn life being given the greatest weight in the decision. I am not convinced that this happens, and this is supported by my own previous view on abortion. You mentioned Planned Parenthood-type orgs. I have never heard of this term, but the name itself infers that ‘unplanned parenthood’ is somehow wrong.
When I was in my 20′s, I always thought that if I accidently got pregnant I would have an abortion. Reasons? Because I wasn’t in a serious relationship, I wasn’t ready to be a mother, I didn’t want the social stigma – the whole thing was too messy. Social stigma was probably the biggest hurdle – a very powerful disincentive. I can confidently say that most of my female friends felt the same way.
Looking back on that mindset I now think it was extremely selfish of me. I didn’t even consider the option of having a baby. I was not mentally ill and my life would not have been at risk to carry a child to full term. Luckily I never had to make that choice, but I can still remember my view on the matter. It is not a big stretch to imagine that approach would be shared by many women.
Having had two beautiful children since then, I now feel strongly about the rights of the unborn child. I believe an unborn child has the right to live and that right should not be denied unless the physical or mental health and safety of the mother is in jeopardy.
I don’t understand your inference that an atheist can’t have their own set of morals or belief in a set of human rights, or call life a ‘gift’. This is usually the argument of the Catholic Church! People who do not believe in God have no morals, etc etc.
My personal view is that life is something to be treasured. This view does not fly in the face of atheism – it complements it. In the absence of a god or an afterlife, life is all we’ve got.
I assure you, my post was honest.
loading...
Still not entirely convinced – the language used is far too emotive for someone who doesn’t rely on a fairy tale for their morals. I’m not saying you don’t have any, but using such language harks back to religion.
And the vast majority of ‘scientists’ who believe that life begins at conception are pro-lifers. Not exactly unbiased. There IS debate, and FWIW, my view is that life begins when consciousness occurs. The beating of the heart. Around then. Potential life is not equal to conscious life. If an embryo is unable to survive outside the womb, then no, I don’t consider it a life. If you consider potential life to be a life, then what of the fertilised eggs that never attatch?
If you are not convinced that people think through abortions, nor have you heard of Planned Parenthood (wtf?), then I really don’t think you can justify commenting on this post. By your own explanations, you don’t have any idea what women who choose to have an abortion go through – whether or not they have a mental illness, pregnancy is not going to be right for every woman at every part of her life.
Have a read of this, and PLEASE educate yourself – it scares me that someone who really hasn’t looked into the abortion issue is commenting like you are.
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/nmonw/i_work_in_an_abortion_clinic_amaa/
loading...
It gets a bit tedious having to convince someone that you’re not lying about your beliefs in a forum of open discussion and debate so I think I’ll leave it at that. Telling people they do not have the right to post their opinions or open up discussion about a topic makes you a thought nazi.
loading...
I’m Christian and don’t believe for a second that the law or the medical system has any hope of judging better than an individual woman whether she is able to go through with her pregnancy.
For the record, health risks are not just physical – the mental health consequences of dealing with an unwanted pregnancy, including whatever reactions the father and others in the picture have, can be horrific. Generalizations about how women should be able to cope are just not good enough.
loading...
I applied the maxim quoted by Caitlin Moran in her awesome book “How To Be a Woman”. Would a man face the same criticism? Probably not. I am a Rampant Feminist, I read the original article and I disagreed with a great deal of her opinion, but I will defend to the death her right to say it, in public, and loudly if she wants to. If she choses to do this then she must also accept the same barrage of support and or criticism a man would when making comment in the public domain.
I do not however expect that every woman or person who calls them selves a Feminist to hold the exact same views as me. That’s like saying any man who believes in men being entitled to equality should have the same opinions on everything else related to men, and that just doesn’t make sense.
loading...
Great comment!
loading...
MTR’s responses to your questions are laughable in their transparency to cover up her true fundamentalist Christian beliefs and ACTIONS. For example, she is a signatory to an incredibly conservative Christian document on marriage called the “Marriage Manifesto.” In this it is CLEARLY antigay, anti-defacto relationship, anti-single parent. Yet here she quotes Penny Wong and declares herself a humanist?! MTR IS being more and more duplicitous about her faith as this progresses!!
http://www.gendermatters.org.au/Marriage_files/Marriage%20Manifesto%20%28low%20res%29.pdf
loading...
I’ve seen Melinda talk – in fact it was at a women’s night at church. I’m really surprised to hear she was a christian as she said a number of things during her talk that seemed to imply she wasn’t – or at least she referred to the audience as ‘gentle folk’ (wrt some of the shocking images) in a way that made me assume she wasn’t. So I’m VERY Surprised!! Not that it changes my opinion of the value of her work – or at least what she was talking about that night (the sexualisation of girls etc).
loading...
Now this is a curly one! Personally I have very strong pro-choice views and as a woman in my 30s I sometimes fear young women in Australia can get a bit complacent about the right to access a safe and legal abortion.
I remember last year some famous teenage pop star who is very religious (pretty sure it was Justin Bieber although it might have been one of the Jonas brothers?) ANYWAY, whoever it was he came out against abortion and there was a very passionate piece on this site arguing against someone so young and naive speaking about such a serious and politically loaded issue as abortion. I was quite shocked to find a lot of women here defended him though. To me the very thought of a high-profile religious person trying to sway people into a pro-life position because of their personal religious views is very scary – whether it’s Biebs, a Jonas boy or Melinda Tankard Reist.
That said, however, I have seen quite a few remarks attacking MTR on Twitter this week and a lot of it is very nasty. I disagree strongly with pro-life campaigners – and I wish the churches would evolve on this issue – but I feel very uneasy about sledging someone because of their faith. I wish the MTR haters on social media would stop the name calling, it’s completely unnecessary.
loading...