Free-birther whose daughter died in childbirth subject of inquest
Janet Fraser’s baby daughter died, but there is confusion whether she was stillborn or died after a home labour where Ms Fraser refused assistance from trained doctors or midwives. The New South Wales police have ‘extensively investigated’ the case and provided a detailed brief of evidence to the corner. Fairfax journalist John Elder interviewed Ms Fraser when she was in the early stages of labour. “Ms Fraser revealed in the interview that at no time during the pregnancy had she consulted a health professional. She said there had been no ultrasound, no regular weight or blood-pressure checks, and the baby’s heartbeat had never been monitored. She also said she intended delivering the baby at home without an attending midwife.
”Free-birthing, plenty of women do it,” she said. The Australian College of Midwives, in an earlier interview, had criticised Ms Fraser for ”recklessly” promoting free-birthing on the Joyous Birth website. During the interview, Ms Fraser said she didn’t expect anything to happen for another couple of days, that nothing bad happened quickly in a labour and that there would be time to get to hospital if things went wrong.
- Publisher Mia Freedman wrote a column about free birthers, Janet Fraser and angry readers. You can read that here.
WikiLeaks strikes again with massive file reveal
The global whistleblower site WikiLeaks has struck again and released some five million emails from US intelligence firm Stratfor. The emails cover a period of years up until December 2011 and are said to reveal, piece-by-piece, the underhanded payments, directives for gathering intelligence through ‘unethical’ means and ‘psychological’ methods. Some of the documents also relate to Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt, one of those attempting to extradite WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange on sexual assault charges that occurred in Sweden. Mr Assange is currently in London.
WikiLeaks has promised more to come, with spokesman Kristinn Hrafnsson claiming that “we have a document that shows the close relationship between Carl Bildt and Washington insiders.”
Mr Bildt “will have to step down. This will be the end of his political career,” an unnamed person with access to the unpublished diplomatic cable was quoted as saying.
Scientists find cells that produce viable eggs in ovaries
Stem cells in the ovaries of adult women have been identified as those that produce what could be an ‘endless supply of eggs’. Similar research on ovaries in mice first published in 2004 was laughed at by many serious scientists who didn’t believe it could be replicated in humans. News.com.au reports:
Professor Jonathan Tilly, from Harvard Medical School, has now found similar cells in the ovaries of adult women. He injected some into immune-deficient mice, to show the human stem cells would turn into viable eggs. They also could be made to mature outside of the body, in vitro.
The frozen ovary tissue came from Japanese women having a sex change, but it was not ethically nor legally feasible to put the new eggs back into a human.
Professor Tilly said the research opened up the possibility that “sometime in the future, we might get to the point of actually having an unlimited source of human eggs”.
“A woman could come in and have a small biopsy taken from her ovary for us to retrieve these cells,” he said.
“Once we get these cells out, we could take a 100 of them and make a million of them. If we could get to the stage of generating functional human eggs outside the body it would rewrite, essentially, human assisted reproduction.”
Measles outbreak traced back to anti-vax
A ‘mini’ measles outbreak of 14 cases has been linked back to the recent football Superbowl held in the United States in which two people attended the games village with the disease before the big event. Of the 14 confirmed measles cases, 13 were unvaccinated, having refused the measles, mumps, rubella (MMR) vaccine. Janine D’Arcy wrote in the Washington Post: “The most disturbing element of the mini outbreak is the potential for what might have been. Measles has an incubation period of more than a week, so hundreds of thousands of fans might have been exposed. If the measles vaccine were not as widely used as it is now, this story would not be on a parenting blog. It would be front and center on every news outlet in the country. The news comes as Australia’s own anti-vaccine network, the AVN, took a victory by default in the Supreme Court of New South Wales as Justice Adamson ruled the Health Care Complaints Commission (HCCC) had no right to issue a public warning about the AVN. It wasn’t a finding of accuracy in the AVN’s claims but rather one of a technicality of the legislation. You can read Mamamia’s full summary of that case here.
Senate Inquiry into teen bride visas
The number of visas granted to teenagers entering Australia for marriages is concerning enough it has prompted a Senate Inquiry. Department of Immigration figures show in the past five years, 207 of the nine-month visas were granted to 17-year-olds to allow them to enter Australia to marry, most of them women. More than 100 were from Lebanon, 23 from Macedonia and 12 from Turkey. Linda Silmalis wrote for the Sunday Telegraph: Liberal Senator Helen Kroger, who triggered the inquiry, said the Opposition was concerned the Government was sanctioning minors to enter Australia to wed.
“I have serious concerns about minors being brought to this country under the assumption of a forced marriage,” she said. Under migration laws, overseas residents can apply for a nine-month prospective marriage visa to enter Australia to marry their partner. The visa is only granted if the partner is an Australian citizen or permanent resident. Opposition immigration spokesman Scott Morrison said the Government should not accommodate the cultural practices of other countries if they compromised the core value of equality for women.
The Department said visas were given to 17-year-olds but none were allowed to marry until they were 18.
Shortly after 10am today we’ll know who will lead the Federal Labor Party as Prime Minister, though by all accounts and numbers that person will be Julia Gillard. A ballot will be held at 10am in Canberra with politicians declaring their support for either Ms Gillard or former Foreign Minister and PM Kevin Rudd. Thoughts, it seems, are already turning to how to unite the party following the vote. Ms Gillard said she believed it would happen. “I believe Labor, all of us, every one of us, will unite after Monday’s ballot,” she said. “We will unite tomorrow and we will get our shoulders to the wheel delivering Labor’s programs and plans.” Mr Rudd echoed those sentiments on Channel Nine. “If Julia is returned on Monday then she will have my unequivocal support between now and the next election because we have interests way beyond individuals here. It’s time for us to unite rather than divide.” Mamamia will be covering the events in full today. And if that isn’t enough to whet your appetite for drama, the Oscars are also held today. In a Monday MM columnist Kate Hunter has dubbed ‘Factions and Fashions’, we’ll have all the Oscars looks and buzz from the awards too.
Speaking of red carpets, Zac Effron dropped a condom at one…
You read that right. The High School Musical star was walking the red carpet at the premiere of his new film The Lorax when he reached into his pocket and accidentally let what appeared to be a condom fall out. Safe sex never looked so glitzy. The look on his face afterwards is, however, priceless.









Comments
92 Comments so far
rvzrGA I think this is a real great blog post.Really thank you! Want more.
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I have 19 month old twins, and was running a little late to get their 18 month shots.
Apparently that didnt matter to Centrelink though, I received payment for completing the immunisation schedule anyway, a couple of days after they turned 18 months. Didnt even need to fill in a claim.
All their shots are done now, I wonder if I could claim again now I have the paperwork?
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Now the anti-vac pieces are really becoming hyperbolic. 14 cases an “outbreak”? “Imagine what might have been”? Come on. Unless a disease has been completely eradicated by a 100% effective vaccine, such an “outbreak” could happen any time, and does through schools etc everywhere. There was a whooping cough outbreak at our local school two years ago. The victims? All vaccinated adults, except for one (vaccinated) child. The adults had not kept their whooping cough shots updated (p.s. the medicos don’t actually know how long that one will last you). So if you want to walk the talk and your whooping cough vaccination is more than 5 years out of date (or maybe just 3, or maybe 4, or maybe 10), you should be making an appointment with your doctor now, or YOU will be the one killing babies. Apologies for the hyperbole.
It’s one thing to promote vaccination and discuss the cons of not vaccinating, it’s another to inflate risks and possibilities. Those affected by the “outbreak”? – the unvaccinated. As far as we know. 14 of them. And? Are you trying to tell unvaccinated people they may catch a disease? I think they realise. 14 out of how many that came into contact with it?
Overdone public fear is not a good thing. And kind of distracts from real problems. Like, say, lack of vaccination for under-nourished and vulnerable children in less developed areas of the world? Perhaps we should be putting the energy we put into hating “alternative” medicine idealogues (plus a pretty small amount of money) into mobilising ourselves and our government to help thousands and millions of children escape death and serious disease.
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many people o. This web site are pro- choice. So it is ok to kill a fetus late term but a crime to free birth? What is the difference? Dead baby at the end of the day.
I am pro choice but I am also pro- let people do there thing- Free birthing strikes me as a bit daft and risky but is it my business?
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I know what you mean… but where as a society do we draw the line and step in to protect those who can’t help themselves? There are an awful lot of laws about how we treat children – they need fancy child restraint car seats, you can’t smack them, you can go to jail for neglecting them… but… is free-birthing neglectful of babies? I’m inclined to think so.
I’m all for people deciding to have their baby in a place they feel comfortable, with people they are happy with, after all there are some horrific “birthrape” stories out there. But it’s not all about the mum at the end of the day. A baby in delivery needs appropriate care too. Unfortunately they are far more at risk in the birth process than mums are – mortality stats say it all.
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An interesting and provocative remark. I am going off to ponder it.
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14 cases of measles….in a foreign country with over 300 million people….slow news day??
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Janet Fraser is providing a good example of child abuse in its earliest form.
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I just cannot understand Janet Fraser thinking the most important thing about pregnancy and then labour is HER birth experience. Why have a pregnancy in the first place if you are so disinterested in the health and safety of the baby you are carrying? That is absolutely disgusting.
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Spot on Loulee!
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Janet Fraser has previously said that her dead baby (as we’re still not sure if it was a stillbirth..) was not as traumatic as her ‘birth rape’… which resulted in a live baby.
This woman is sick, sad and deranged. Women deserve to have births that are as non-traumatic and empowering as possible.. but really – when people prioritize their birth experience over the safety or survival of their baby, what was the point in getting pregnant if not ‘to have a baby’?
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She’s an insult to witches.
She’s also an insult to doulas, midwives and birth attendants.
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LOL how cute is Zac Efron. He went as red as a beetroot! So he had a condom. What 24 year old male doesn’t? Plus, I think it is an awesome thing, means he is being safe and sensible.
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at the Zac Effron thing, yes the look on his face is priceless!
Although the thought did occur to me that this isn’t a *perfect* message in favour of safe sex… that condom looks unwrapped, and now it’s been on the ground. It’s not actually usable! It’s not sterile, and its structural integrity cannot be guaranteed! (Sorry if I’m being too realist here! Like I said first, I can see the funny side too )
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It didn’t look unwrapped.. it looked like it was in a normal wrapper, square and shiny. Why would he have an unwrapped condom anyway? That would be weird..
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OK, I stand corrected. Yes, an unwrapped one would be weird! I definitely trust someone else’s eyesight over my own! To me, the image looked blurred. In the final shot where it’s surrounded by the circle, I thought I could see the shape of an unwrapped condom – but maybe some brands have one side the wrapping being clear? Or maybe I’m just seeing things (shrug).
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The only thing that was weird was that he was only packing one!
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Why does it have to be sterile? Penises aren’t sterile!
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Good point! However, they’re not (however indirectly) exposed to the bottom of a few dozen pairs of shoes, either…
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Janet Fraser sounds like a twit.
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Why oh why would you not want to even have a mid-wife present at your home birth? Most women don’t feel their most rational while in labour anyway. Why wouldn’t you want someone medically trained to assist – and recognise if it’s not going to plan?
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Whats the big deal about Zac Efron dropping a condom?
At least he’s practicing safe sex.
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I think it was because he was at the premiere for The Lorax which is a kids movie.
Or, more likely, we’re all supposed to go “shock! horror!” etc. I agree with you – it’s silly that it’s made news around the world
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As a mother who believes in vaccination, I was appalled recently to discover that the Immunisation Allowance in Australia (designed to encourage parents to immunise), is available to parents who dont immunise their children. Apparently all you have to do is provide an approved exemption (which could be as simple as you dont agree with immunisation) and the payment is yours. Anyone else agree that this loophole is plain crazy?
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I started a campaign suggestion to get rid of said loophole on GetUp at the end of last year. AVers are super proud of the fact that they can get the payment and be conscientious objectors. Of course those of us in favour are big nasty meanies who are being nasty and mean and being Nazis to have the apparently crazy expectation that people actually get their kids immunised in order to receive the allowance.
Unfortunately Get Up have changed how you suggest campaigns (it was a forum where you had 10 votes to give to ideas that you liked, and you could comment on the suggestions), and I have been busy with other stuff so haven’t restarted my suggestion in the new format. It was VERY popular in a short time though, and got quite a lot of votes.
The AVN actually hook people up to go along to the doctor with people who are scared when they go to get their CO form signed. As in on their pages, people will say “Is there anyone in (say) Inner Western Sydney who would be able to come to the doctor with me so I stand firm and get my CO form signed”. They then slaver away trying to out AV each other to stick it to teh ebil doktor Big Pharma shill. It’d be funny if it wasn’t.
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Isnt it lovely that our taxes are being used this way? Why isnt it simply no vaccination, no payment.
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That’s nuts. Some legal reason I suppose. What also troubles me is that non-vaccinated kids can go to day care…where there are little babies. Under 5s are shocking at personal hygiene as we all know. Does that make sense to anyone else? Apparently they are asked to be absent if there’s an outbreak of something at the centre, but seems like stable door closed too late to me. Surely these kids are more likely to introduce the diseases. It always struck me as tolerance gone a little mad. Although I am not crazy about people’s choice not to vax their kids, I would be more accepting if they did not use day care services for their under 5s.
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My 2 year old came down with measles a month ago. My vaccinated two year old!! I couldn’t believe how unlucky my poor little monkey was. But I’ve got to say, this experience only highlighted for me how important vaccination is. My baby was unlucky, but it was a mild case. At least I knew we had done all we could to avoid it. If she hadn’t been vaccinated and she got measles I would have felt so guilty, plus she may have been much more sick.
I should also say that while the doctor was fairly confident she had measles, she didn’t have a blood test and it may have just been a bad post viral rash. My usual GP (who didn’t see her as it happened out of hours, as usual!) refuses to believe it could have been measles due to vaccination.
The irony is, I bought my husband a ‘vaccinate a child in the developing world’ gift card for valentines day just before her rash broke out as I was thinking how lucky my daughter is to be fully vaccinated so when she has a cold/virus I can be fairly confident not much will eventuate! But I still maintain vaccination is the way to go!!!
Anyway, please vaccinate your child and make sure your vaccinations are up to date. If we all do this, much unnecessary grief can be avoided.
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Ok Mamamia we get it – you are really strongly pro-vacc. If there was any doubt anyone may have had about that it has definitely been removed by the number of times you have hit us over the head with this issue in the past month. But enough is enough, please!!!
In the past month I have seen more articles regarding vacc than basically any other issue. It apparently is even more important than who is going to be running our country (judging by which issue is higher up the page in this post). It is getting ridiculous. After the first few articles which I participated in I decided not to read the last couple, but now to even be smacked in the face with it in the news post? You MUST be going looking for stories on this because I just checked the Daily Telegraph website, the Sydney Morning Herald website, and the ABC news website and not one of them has any mention of this story (on their main page – maybe if I dug around for a while I would be able to find this story)! Obviously someone in the office (yes possibly everyone, I concede that) feels very passionately about this and wanted to get a message out, but please enough is enough. Move on to the evils of smoking or something, but cut it out with ‘vacc is good, unsure of vacc or ant-vacc is evil’ message. Whomever is very into this issue has made their point. Many times!
I love the MM community for the diversity of topics discussed, and the many varied responses that topics generate. There is usually a balance of issues discussed (a bit of fashion here, a bit of politics there, a personal interest story there, etc). At the moment however it feels like there is an almost daily post on this one issue. Yes I can choose to not read the articles I’m not interested in, but now it is even showing up in the basic news post. This issue needs to be rested for a while. Please!
I apologise in advance if my reply might be a little too strongly worded but I have had a really stressful weekend. Please cut me some slack for that. But please also give this issue a break for a while. I felt too strongly about this after opening up the site this morning to not post something. If I wanted to constantly read about one issue I would find a website dedicated to it. Even the parenting websites I go to (very mainstream with plenty from voices from every side of every issue) don’t mention this as much as you do!
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It’s an important issue. We’re OK with highlighting it among the myriad other things we publish.
Just skip over the AVN stuff if you don’t like it
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Rick can I just say that every time you use the word “myriad” without an “of” after it, my respect for you grows!
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I completely agree! I was corrected once by an English teacher at school for using the word ‘myriad’ correctly, without an ‘of’ after it, and had to set her straight! The same teacher once marked me down for an essay in which I referred to a man who had been ‘hanged’. She told me the man was ‘hung’, and I had to correct her, telling her that a picture is ‘hung’, and a person is ‘hanged’. I don’t know what I’m going to do when my children start writing their essays in text speak, and without any regard for grammar or punctuation…
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Beat them. With an apostrophe.
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I disagree. It’s important and relevant to everybody, therefore I like hearing about it. As always.. don’t like it, don’t read it.
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There are 3 posts over the last couple of days about K-Rudd and JG. You can always just skip over the AV stuff, but it is news, and it IS important to know that Measles, which are apparently “marvellous” is still very much around and very contagious.
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Meh, I am over the whole debacle of Rudd vs Gillard, that the only reason I even considered reading Jess Rudd’s article was the sheet amount of comments. I haven’t even read an article today and was very dissapointed that was what was dominating the news websites today (and yeah, I know it is a matter of national significance, but I am over the Labour party) Whilst I don’t have kids, so the vaccincation articles don’t directly target me, I still find them interesting.
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Are you serious? It’s an important issue that NEEDS to be discussed. Well done to MM for discussing controversial yet serious issues. You are obviously anti vaccine and don’t want to have to read the facts which all point to vaccinating over non vaccinating.
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Hope mine aren’t still producing, 42 this year and there is no way I want any more kids!!
This could be misleading info to women if they think they can wait until their 40′s before trying to conceive. Most will fail at this age.
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Unlimited eggs. I would imagine this would be good for those needing IVF etc, but for most women, thankfully 100,000 give or take is enough. I wonder if the limitless egg thing would be anticipated to happen in vitro or in a woman’s body? Could have interesting implications for menopause.
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I have a science degree, where I learned to scrutinise the precise wording of science news articles. To me, this reads far more like cells that could be forced to convert to viable eggs in a laboratory. And maybe in a woman’s body, although this is a legal and ethical minefield. Definitely not cells that *will* do so, with no artificial intervention, inside a woman’s body. Sounds like it would still be the case that “you’re born with all the eggs you’ll ever have” (they’re not mature at that point of course, but they’re there) Decades of fertility research back up this common assertion. The cells they’re talking about are stem cells, not viable eggs. The point of stem cells is that they can become anything – or they may remain stem cells forever. What happens to them depends on all kinds of things, and I feel highly skeptical that they would do anything at all, without intense, unusual (natural or artificial) variations from the normal/typical hormonal levels.
P.S. That last sentence is solely my opinion, based on a quick but careful read of the above info.
P.P.S. In case anyone is sensitive about the word ‘normal’ – I am too! Here, I mean it solely as a description of norms throughout the population / what is typical. It is not a value judgment, is not meant to be prejudiced in any way, and I would not say the opposite is ‘abnormal’. Rather, receiving specialised treatment? Or has a certain, relatively rare clinical condition? Can you tell the word bothers me? Can’t think of a well-defined and unambiguous synonym, though! Sorry, rant over.
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Wondering what Mamamia readers think about the proposed foetal homicide laws that are being put on the table in the West. Has this made news over east?
http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/foetal-homicide-laws-a-good-start-right-to-life-20120226-1tw9g.html
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Wow. Those completely passed me by. Might bring this up in editorial this morning. Very interesting.
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Yeah it doesn’t take too much of a leap of logic to see with this law in place, abortion will no longer be legal.
I feel for the family and the circumstances that put this notion on the table in the first place (pregnant woman, foetus killed in a car crash), but the implications of this law would be far reaching for all women.
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http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/fetal-homicide-laws-to-be-introduced-in-western-australia/story-e6frg14c-1226281446135
“The proposed legislation will be drafted to require an unlawful act to be done to the mother before any penalty can apply,” Mr Porter said. “This ensures these changes will not affect a mother’s right to make decisions regarding her pregnancy.”
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This is somewhat reassuring. I didn’t see that part of the story. I’m still weary of a slippery slope.
Thanks for posting that link Kim.
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It is a very slippery slope giving fetuses legal rights – and WA AMA President David Mountain has called for these proposed laws to be used against mums and midwives following a homebirth.
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/13017489/charge-reckless-mums-doctors-union/
Will doctors receive mandatory life sentences too for incorrect advice they give pregnant women and for fetal deaths in hospital births? Over 2000 babies died in Australian hospitals last year.
If a fetus has legal rights – can a child sue its mother for things that happened whilst in the womb?
How about if a mum ‘recklessly’ goes horseriding or bungee jumping and has an accident and her baby dies – will she be charged with homicide too? This is just completely outrageous. Can’t believe there are even people who can suggest such madness.
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/13032305/anger-over-calls-to-criminalise-homebirth/
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I agree C! Slippery slope indeed. How on earth can they change the laws to charge someone with homicide if they are, for example, drink driving and crash into a car and kill an unborn child WITHOUT outlawing abortion? If Abbott ever gets voted in he has made it pretty clear that he is against abortion. I am 100% pro choice and will be disgusted with this country if they outlaw abortion. This is a very dangerous law to introduce…. If they do class a foetus as a person in terms of homicide laws how can they not charge a mother for aborting a foetus? Are they saying that the mother is allowed to decide whether the baby lives or dies? But nobody else? A foetus might be growing into a living thing, but it cannot survive without it’s mother. Therefore, it’s not an individual and cannot be classed as a person. It’s a part of the mother’s body, pure and simple. I find it so hard to believe this law would pass… How will they prove the foetus died purely as a result of the act of the accused? And not from a miscarriage or still birth which is common? I can’t believe in the 21st century here we are still looking at the possibility of having no choice when it comes to our own bodies. Ahhhhhh makes me so angry
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Im a mum who has chosen not to vaccinate until my children turn two. I accept that my kids may become sick with something if that happens we would stay away from the public until safe. We also never visit newborns who are unvaccinated we don’t use day care and we don’t leave the country until they’re vaccinated! I could go into our reasons for waiting but I feel it would fall on deaf ears. We are not all rouge parents who are ilinformed and who don’t care about the children around us
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Sounds perfectly reasonable. You aren’t NOT vaccinating your children, after all, and they live in the comminity a lot longer than two years.
The problem would be if you denied there was any risk to not vaccinating, which is what the AVN does. See Melanie’s Marvelous Measles.
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Hi Gema, I would be interested to learn why you want to wait until then. No judgement, just curious….
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A few reasons….. The human body doesn’t develop a full immune system until the age of two so the vacc given before then are just a blanket protection, as a child a didn’t process my vacc very well ( and in the 70′s they were only single vacc and given later ) and basically just didn’t want to put mercury into my little ones bodies until they’re organs had a chance to develop a bit more
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You realise that very few vaccines these days contain mercury?? And even the ones that do contain less than what you would get from eating a can of tuna??
Not trying to shoot you down, but do you think doctors would recommend certain vaccinations before the age of two if they weren’t safe??
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You should know that the current Australian Standard Vaccination Schedule for children under 5 includes only one vaccine that contains mercury (thiomersal) – this is the monovalent Hep B vaccine. And, there is actually a thiomersal free product available. (Plus, none of the combined vaccines such as Infarix-hep B and Comvax contain thiomersal.) This info is available at http://www.immunise.health.gov.au.
My children are fully vaccinated, and did not have any vaccines containing mercury.
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Good to know, thank you. The last time I check was 5 years ago and by checked I mean I called the aust vacc board and spoke in depth with them and I was told only in Darwin could I get these shots. Do I’d love to know where you went?
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My children had the Infarix vax at the local health clinic – I think that it is pretty widely available and seems to be the standard vaccine (in Canberra at least) these days.
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Ive immunized babies with infanrix and I live in Qld. Just ask your GP or clinic if they have infanrix. If not, ask them to order it. I would imagine they’d be happy to do that, in preference to your child not being immunised.
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Hi Gemma, I appreciate your honesty however find it a little odd that you would rely on information that you received 5 years ago.
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Gemma, your kids are infectious BEFORE they show symptoms. That means your unvaccinated two year olds are very likely to infect young babies who haven’t yet had their shots if they get sick. You or anyone else wouldn’t even know your kids are carrying an infectious virus. So yes, some might suggest that you are uninformed. And selfish.
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Hi anon yes of course I realise this! Which is why I said we are never around babies who haven’t been vacc yet. And yes this includes the park, library swimming pools etc….. Unless of course they’re children who are older and their parents have chosen not to vacc also
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Gemma, do you never take your kids to a supermarket/shops or travel to a park or on the bus? I caught Chicken pox from walking past a kid that had it! You never know who is infected, that is the problem and the cycle keeps going round and round if people stop vaccinating.
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Yeah I don’t understand this either Gema. Does this mean you are basically housebound with a 2 year old? I pity the thought!
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Naturally we go to supermarkets etc. Just to be sure we are talking about non vacc newborns right? Any others if not vacc their parents have chosen not too so accept the risk and responsibility. So if I see a new born (up to around 8 weeks) we stay well clear! Also for the record my children one 4yo and one 17mnth have never very rarely been sick the worst has been gastro in my 8week old, at one stage I thought it may have been whooping cough but the ambulance guy who came to our house informed me that because I had had the vacc and I was breast feeding that my daughter was protected….
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Right ok. Just to be clear, that your kids are healthy has nothing to do with the fact that they are unvaccinated. Mine are healthy too & have been vaccinated up to their eyeballs.
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Hi Gema, I *think* (am trying to look it up now) that Whooping Cough is NOT protected by breastfeeding, hence why an infant’s need to be immunized against it is so high. I am relatively certain of this and will post a link when I find it. I know that the natural immunity from breast milk covers many diseases, but I am sure I read somewhere that this wasn’t included in that coverage.
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Not what I was saying Snap
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Here are few links; there’s probably something better available but these were the first ones I found.
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Immunisation_and_pregnancy
http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/939.aspx?CategoryID=54&SubCategoryID=135
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Why do you think the WHO advice children be vaccinated? Because generations of parents have watched their children die of a disease that could have been prevented. Gemma, ask your grandparents (or even parents) how many babies, children they know died. The mortality rate for babies is low now because of pioneers in vaccination.
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Nasty Anon, who didn’t get their coffee this morning? Some people will abuse even the most respectful of posters like Gema..hey Anon…my 5 yr old has’nt had her booster yet..I will wait patiently for my online attack..so predictable.
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What’s nasty about Anon’s post? It’s true.
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Hi incanberra,
Thanks for your comment, but I didn’t think for one moment that people would be happy with my post. I’m just tired off all anti vacc people being lumped together with ‘crazy crack pot hippies’ who have no idea what they’re doing and trust only one source for their information, trust me I’m well educated on this field hell why wouldn’t I be it’s my kids health!!!!
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“The last time I check was 5 years ago and by checked I mean I called the aust vacc board and spoke in depth with them and I was told only in Darwin could I get these shots.”
Well clearly no you are not well educated.
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Hi Louie , yes you’re right in relation to mercury I haven’t read any more but once I got preg with my last child I did look into any updates and I must have missed this one? Will be calling my doctor today to see if I can get them without any potentially harmful binding agents,
I never said I was an expert and im not the most articulate of people plus I know I’m opening myself up to ridicule but so far no one else has spoken up for the other side of this debate.
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Good on you for speaking up Gema! Lord knows it is difficult expressing an unpopular opinion and people get very aggressive about this topic. I have chosen to immunise my child homoeopathically until the age of 2 at which time I will fully vaccinate. I strongly support the idea of immunisation, I just think that vaccination as a form of immunisation is inappropriate for children under the age of 2 for similar reasons you have cited above. This has the full consent and support of my paediatrician. I fully respect the rights and opinions of those parents who wish to vaccinate their children from birth – I just wish they would grant us the same courtesy.
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Thanks for that, well said, wish I had put it that way
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There is no other side. It’s been disproven time and again. Yet people come up with “arguments” like yours about infant immune systems.
Why do you think that the governments would wilfully harm people? Seriously? Do you think the Chief Medical Officer chucks darts at a calendar to determine when jabs are given?
I’m not going to pat you on the back for getting your kids immunised after 2. They’re susceptible way before that, that’s why they give the jabs according to the schedule the way they do. You’re putting your own kids and other people at risk.
And Anonymous, giving your kid homeopathic immunisations until 2? Save your money, go to the council run jab clinics and get the schedule for free rather than paying a quack for water that’s been shaken in a magic manner.
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You know I find this website quite amazing in the fact that it promotes all these “friendly” politically correct practises, yet it allows people like you with loud voices and ignorant opinions to blubber away here on a daily basis without reproach. Isn’t the way you behave nothing more than the hideous style of another of todays main news topics, that of bullying and its horrendous effects? Shame on you and shame on the Mamma Mia website!
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Shame on me for what? Countering paper thin arguments? How about instead of saying “big meanie! Lalala not listening” you actually counter ANYTHING I have said with something credible, instead of throwing vague accusations of ignorance and, surprise surprise, bullying? I won’t hold my breath.
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Hmmm. I don’t have children but when I do they will be vaccinated at the correct ages. Vaccinations should be mandatory in my opinion, it doesn’t come down to the individual, it comes down to society as a whole. I am totally for everyone having their own opinions and making their own decisions, but when that decision has the ability to seriously impact the health of hundreds and thousands of others it is definitely cause for concern. Gema where do you get your info from? Websites that anybody could have written? Wikipedia? I suggest you speak with trained, qualified and knowledgable scientists and doctors who will all tell you that without vaccines we would have health epidemics similar to life before vaccines were introduced meaning an extremely high death rate with a younger average life expectancy. I only have one ‘friend’ who is 100% against vaccinations. She also thinks that there is a cure for cancer and doctors know but they won’t reveal it, she also has skin cancer on her face that continues to grow despite the fact that doctors have told her she needs to have it surgically removed to survive… She thinks coating it in goats milk will make it go away. In other word, she is a misinformed uneducated crazy woman who thinks she knows better than scientists who spend years in laboratories studying cells and everything else….. You might think you’re ok coz you’re still getting her vaccinated ut 2 is too late. You have the potential to cause harm before then! Oh when will people learn!?!?!?!?!?!?!
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Hi teegs,
Yes I have spoken with our local GP and the vacc nurse I have also read many articles for and against this issue, I personally don’t know any scientists so haven’t spoken with one and as you rightly pointed out I wouldn’t trust an article written on line as it could have been written by anyone this includes Doctors scientists……… My Gp couldn’t guarantee my child would not have a bad reaction so I weighed up our options AND responsibilities and made my choice.
You may also want to ask yourself why governments haven’t made it mandatory? The US alone has paid out over a million in compensation!
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Well I think they haven’t made it mandatory because that would be forcing people to inject something into their body.
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so if there’s no harm in it what’s the problem then?
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So you think there IS harm in it? Then why would the health department strongly recommend it? Obviously it will never be mandatory !
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Admittedly, I had been avoiding the news like the plague this weekend but is there any actual policy difference between the government’s current line up and Rudd’s?
I originally cheered when Rudd got the axe, I thought he’d backflipped on the ETS, was getting beaten up by Abbott and the mining companies and he was against gay marriage. Ah, I LOL at my naivety now, of course, expecting Gillard to be different. But at least there was an expectation that policy would change under Gillard.
But this time, there’s nothing? Just Rudd revenge? He’s the new Latham. Doesn’t get his way, out to destroy the party.
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They’ve been having a mini policy-off in their stump speeches, but I don’t know what the substantive difference is. Rudd seems to think Gillard left manufacturing to die, and he keeps mentioning cleaning up tax for small business. She keeps mentioning education and Labor reforms like carbon tax.
I lost my way. I’ll be glad when this is over. So glad.
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I know! First thing I was asked this morning… As if I know who will win!
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phwoaaaarrr, Zac Efron is looking sexy! He looks like a man now haha
I wonder if the anti-vaxx crackpots are paying attention to the measles story? Oh wait no, they only caught “marvellous measles”… good for the immune system!
Good luck labor party… I hope Julia Gillard is still the Prime Minister at the end of the day. They got rid of Kevin Rudd 2 years ago and they should stand by their decision. To not do so would make the Labor party look even weaker…
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I still want to know why the measles I had as a two year old didn’t “cure” my eczema. This is the good of measles, according to the AVN…
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How can k Rudd say now is the time to unite, we have far more important agendas than individuals…. Whilst challenging the leadership and causing a shot fight, i have never ever voted anything but labour, but as hard as it will be my votes going liberal, we need a term of government where my tax dollars aren’t being spent by people squabbling for personal power. My feelings have turned against Rudd and labour.
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Yes looking forward to getting the leadership ballot over with today so Labor can just get on with governing the country and now hopefully the Liberals can move their attention to getting rid of Tony Abbott as opposition leader.
Not only do I have my first day at high school canteen this morning – and that is scaring me – (sweet little primary school kids I can handle with ease… 1000 teenagers not so sure) so I can’t follow the leadership ballot in detail but worse still I will be missing the Oscars!
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You’ll probably be amazed at the amount of food some teenage boys can put away.
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LOL! Reading that about Zac Efron was just what I needed this morning to wake up…good to know he plays it safe!
Honestly I can’t wait for today to be over. Either way the labor party loses, this whole situation has been allowed to go on for too Long and has overshadowed all of their efforts in governing this country…
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Couldn’t agree more. The focus on personalities takes away from the issues. Ready to move on.
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