Dear Jackie O and Every Other Woman Who Doesn’t Consider Herself A Feminist,
Really? I mean REALLY? I was so confused when I read the following quote from you yesterday:
Do you consider yourself a feminist?
“No,” she says, with a shy smile.
“Why?” I cry in disappointed tones.
“You’re a woman.”
“I know,” she says, laughing. “I know. I do feel like I have achieved so much, in radio especially. But I’ve never considered myself a feminist. I’m just, you know, I’m doing what I love. I’m really proud of how far I’ve come. But … you know.”
Here’s Mia and Lisa Wilkinson talking to Karl Stefanovic about Jackie O’s feminist quote on The Today Show:
The thing is Jackie -I’ve known you a long time and I like you a lot. You are a force in radio, a role model for many women and your success is no accident. You’ve worked hard and you’re talented.
In many ways, the power you have in your field has paved the way for many other women like you to be given a chance in a hugely competitive industry that’s mostly dominated by men.
So I’m confused by your insistence that you’re not a feminist.
What do you think feminism is? Or rather, why are you so keen to distance yourself from it?
As self-described “strident feminist” and my hero Caitlin Moran says in her book How to be a Woman:
“We need to reclaim the word ‘feminism’. We need the word ‘feminism’ back real bad.
When statistics come in saying that only 29% of American women would describe themselves as feminist – and only 42% of British women – I used to think, What do you think feminism IS, ladies? What part of ‘liberation for women’ is not for you? Is it freedom to vote? The right not to be owned by the man you marry? The campaign for equal pay? ‘Vogue’ by Madonna? Jeans? Did all that good shit GET ON YOUR NERVES? Or were you just DRUNK AT THE TIME OF THE SURVEY?”
There seem to be a lot of women who are confused about the meaning of feminism. Lady Gaga in 2009 said: “I’m not a feminist. I hail men. I love men.”
HUH? Who said anything about NOT loving men? Where does that even come from? Since when did feminism have anything to do with rejecting men or femininity?
Equally frustrating is the “I’m not a feminist, but…” brigade.
“These days, well-intentioned suggestions of equality often follow in the footsteps of the phrase “I’m not a feminist, but…”, as if feminism is a disease we want to ensure everyone we don’t have before proceeding. As if feminism and being a feminist is something to be embarrassed about.”
“Most of us like being women but the strife between wanting to embrace both femininity and feminism seems difficult at times. Questions like “I like wearing make-up, so am I really a feminist?”, “I’m really into fashion, so am I really a feminist?”, “I like to cook for my husband, so am I really a feminist?” or “I want to stay home with my children instead of work, so am I really a feminist?” pop up, and the answer is always yes.
Feminism is anything but the rejection of femininity. It is about embracing that femininity and demanding that the world embrace it the way they have embraced masculinity for most of our history. It is about ensuring that women always have both a choice and a voice. It is about not being devalued because we happen to be women.”
Yep, and spare me the ‘humanist’ label because it’s naive and misses the point. In a recent interview about her role in the movie I Don’t Know How She Does It, a movie that would have been impossible without feminism, Sarah Jessica Parker was at pains to point out: ”I took a page from [the playwright] Wendy Wasserstein’s book. She said, ‘I’m not a feminist, I’m a humanist.”’
That would be ace if humans all had the same rights but we don’t. Women are STILL not paid the same amount as men for doing the same job. And any half-decent bloke would be as appalled by that as women should be.
From the Herald Sun:
Australian Bureau of Statistics studies of Australia’s almost nine million employees have found only 151,000 were women earning $2000 a week or more, compared with 570,400 men.
The ABS reports looked at employee earnings and also analysed information by gender. In every wage category, on average, women earn less than men from the time they start work through to retirement.
Keelia Fitzpatrick, Youth Officer with the Victorian Trades Hall Council, said for young women who finished university, the gender pay gap was present from day one of their careers. “Figures show that across industries female graduates will earn on average $2000 less per year than their male counterparts,” Ms Fitzpatrick said. “This debunks the myth that the gender pay gap can be explained by family commitments.”
Girlfriends, come on. Feminism is simply about believing women should have equality and the right to make decisions about our own lives. Whether to work, who to marry, what jobs to do, whether to have children, when to have them, how many, who to vote for, what to wear…….the list goes on.
You want to give those choices back? You want men to make the decisions about your lives? About your body? Well, sure. Then perhaps you’re not a feminist.
But I don’t know ANY woman who believes she’s not worthy of the same rights as men, that she should earn the same money for doing the same job.
You want to know what it’s not like to have those rights? Maybe talk to a woman who lives in Saudi Arabia who is not legally allowed to drive a car let alone have a job or vote.
So are you a feminist?
Caitlin Moran suggests taking this simple test:
”Put your hands in your pants. (a) Do you have a vagina? And (b) Do you want to be in charge of it? If you said yes to both, then congratulations, you’re a (c) feminist.”
I’m a feminist. I’m the daughter of a feminist and the mother of one and I’m proud.
Jackie, you should be proud too. Proud of your success, proud of your family, grateful for the choices you have.
Because feminism played a crucial part in all of it.
Here’s a gallery of women who inspire us.

Mother Teresa - Founded the Missionaries of Charity in Calcutta and helped the poor and sick for 45 years.




Comments
577 Comments so far
Although I’d consider myself a feminist, I can understand why somebody wouldn’t. There is a real feeling of feminism catering only to cisgender, white, middle class women. Women who don’t fall into these categories can feel as if feminism doesn’t cater to them.
Also you could hardly call some of the women in the above gallery feminists, or indeed positive role models. Lady Gaga has publicly stated that she doesn’t consider herself a feminist because she “loves men”, and what exactly did Marilyn Monroe or Mother Teresa do to contribute to the equality of women?
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I don’t think anyone who works along side that sexist bigot Kyle Sandilands could possibly even think of calling themselves a feminist, I thank her for not degrading the word.
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Where was Benazir Bhutto?
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“But … you know.”
…
No I don’t know Jackie.
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hahahaha oh I would pay to see the look on her face………
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Batting eyelids? Oh. no the journalist was female. That would make her a bit ‘lezo’.
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LOL
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Hi Mia, thank you so much for writing this. I too read Jackie O’s interview on the weekend with horror, because I think it reflects many of the younger generation’s views on feminism. I feel so embarrassed that women like my mother (The first female member of collingwood football club) fought for us girls just to get the SAME treatment and rights as males. Yet it seems most of my friends are happy to have all those rights, but are too scared to label themselves feminist in case it puts the men off. Its just like when girls were told not to be too smart in case it intimidates the males around them. I asked my boyfriend today if he considers himself a feminist and after a brief discussion he agreed that yes he does. It’s as simple as do you agree women and men should have equal rights, and if the answer is yes then you are a feminist. Its not about what you choose, it’s about the fact you have a choice.
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Well said.
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If she doesn’t feel the need to label herself as a feminist who is anyone else to insist that she does? Fair enough that you consider her to be a feminist by your standards Mia, but that doesn’t mean she sees it the same way
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It’s not that she’s not a feminist (as in, react and think like one), it’s that she hasn’t taken 2 minutes in her life to ask herself if she was, therefore she’s taken aback by the question…
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I think people are just shocked that she doesn’t seem to understand the very reason she has been able to have the career she has had, is because of the hard won opportunities afforded to her by the feminist movement.
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I’m sorry but I am so bored of the use of the word ‘feminist’ on this site, it’s used so much and so broadly I don’t even know what it means anymore!!!
I have read about it so much on this site it has actually put me off…sorry guys, off to read something else.
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I don’t think you can really tell a person that they are part of what most people would consider a movement.
It’s like saying:
Do you like the destruction of rainforests and the extinction of species? No. Then you’re an environmentalist.
Do you like being told what to do? No. Then you’re an anarchist.
It just doesn’t work like that.
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yeah… you’re right… its better the reap the rewards and stand passively by and let other people do the work…
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No actually , this is more like asking a Black person if they think civil rights movement was a good thing and have them reply “no, i don’t know , you know i like white people , i think we’re all equal , i’m a “humanist”…………..ok, see how clueless and ridiculous ? can you FEEL the cluelessness?
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Jackie O wasn’t asked if she thought the feminist movement was a good thing, she was asked if she thought of herself as a feminist. Sarah Jessica Parker
If we must be labelled – what is wrong with relating to ‘humanist’ as a term rather than ‘feminist’. I think every human should be treated fairly regardless or gender. I don’t want to favor one group over another. How is that logic ridiculous?
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Jackie O wasn’t asked if she thought the feminist movement was a good thing, she was asked if she thought of herself as a feminist.
If we must be labelled – what is wrong with relating to ‘humanist’ as a term rather than ‘feminist’. I think every human should be treated fairly regardless or gender. I don’t want to favor one group over another. How is that logic ridiculous?
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it’s not , but it’s called feminism !
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I respectfully disagree. Feminism is about women’s rights – there’s nothing wrong with that. I just prefer to use a term that is inclusive of all people.
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Now you’re either trolling or being thick on purpose (if you are genuinely dumb, I apologize ) Here is what you wrote :”I think every human should be treated fairly regardless or gender. I don’t want to favor one group over another. How is that logic ridiculous?” YOU wrote that . you said “regardless of gender”. That’s feminism , until men become slaves to women , then it would be “masculinism”, but humanism, what movement IS that ? is it the one which will set us free from the domination of an alien race? what an apt name you’ve chosen for yourself …
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I was not attacking your beliefs of forcing mine upon you. I ask that at the very least you do the same. I am not claiming humanism as a movement – I’m simply stating that I am more comfortable calling myself a humanist than a feminist. I thought I was free to make that choice? I guess if you don’t call yourself a feminist you’re just a thick dumb troll. Bullying at it best.
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Beliefs? At what point did we even discuss beliefs? Ok I get it, I see that I expected too much of you , I apologize . Be a “humanist ” for all I care :p
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No, but I can feel the rudeness!
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Is a simple definition of a feminist, someone who believes in equal right for women?
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I have always found the term feminist to be a little pointless. I understand why people like using it but I think it’s moot. If I support gay rights then I’m just a person who supports gay rights. A decent person, I would say. So if I support women’s rights can’t I just be a decent person who believes in equality for all? I usually say I am a feminist because that is just the easy way out, and I really don’t have any problem with it, I just feel like I could hold the same beliefs without it.
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It’s just a tribute to the women who coined the term.
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OK, I respect that she’s a friend, and probably a great mother, daughter, wife etc. — but I think given how much of Jackie O’s career success has been based on enabling that misogynist nightmare Kyle Sandilands, I’d be rather concerned if she did identify as a feminist.
To be completely honest, for a while now whenever I see Jackie O I think of that other great quote of Caitlin Moran’s about women who make a living enabling sexism to continue: “Vichy France with T*ts”.
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Oh, you said what I wanted to say only much better.
There’s not much feminism that I can see in her public persona. I remember her from when she was married to Ugly Phil working in Canberra radio and it was the same schtick. The giggling enabler.
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I wear lipstick, high heels, am married to a man, have 2 sons & a daughter and I am a proud feminist. I have claimed the term which I define as per Wikipedia (from three dictionaries):
“Feminism is a collection of movements aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women. In addition, feminism seeks to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist is a “person whose beliefs and behavior are based on feminism.”"
This is what I live in my daily life and impart to my three kids.
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Agree with the sentiment but baffled by some of the women included in the photos! Marie Antoinette? She was a queen who did not relate to common people – men or women – at all. Martha Stewart? She was imprisoned for insider trading. I do not admire that and it’s not feminism to me!
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Anna Bligh isn’t the Premier anymore!!!
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Feminists lost me when they said Margaret Thatcher was not a feminist icon. And why is Sarah Palin not considered a feminist icon, because she’s a republican? Or too Christian? Or anti-abortion? I think for some of us, feminism lies too far to the left to be of any real value.
I believe in women’s rights. I believe in equal rights for men and women. And I admire strong women who’ve made a difference whether it be in the political, medical, scientific or business worlds, regardless of whether or not they considered themselves feminist.
I know women are on the back foot even today in Western society, I know we earn less than men, and are under-represented in many fields and still have a long way to go to reach total equality. But honestly, our lives are pretty damn good. Maybe feminists should try and change the lives of women who have NO rights is various other countries. And just stop bloody complaining. Margaret Thatcher broke class and gender barriers to become PM, maybe she’s not a feminist for whatever reason, but she changed her own life and inspired many others by her own actions.
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I sometimes despair about this view, who got you the present conditions?
And yes they can slip backwards, they already have. when i was in my 20′s i wasn’t allowed into a public bar, i wasn’t allowed to get a loan without a male guarantor, the female principal of my school had to have a male member of staff go guarantor for her to buy a house that she had 2/3rds of the price.
as a feminist i get extremely annoyed at teenage girls who already start to simper with the comments that they “cant do something”. i teach teenagers!!!!
Don’t enjoy what we fought for without accepting that we did do this, try and be vocal now for the future generations. Many companies have fiddled with the concept of feminism to make it more economical for them.
the original “woman can make a decision to work or not work” became a woman can easily work and raise a family. The concept that a woman can choose to stay home got lost in the hype.
we have a long way to go, and yes other countries need help but there countries out there that feel that Australia is very male chauvinistic , are they right?
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Maragaret Thatcher will never get any credit on this site, way too conservitive and right politically.
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Mia (or team, or whoever), maybe you should start selling those “This is what a feminist looks like” t-shirts on this site. I would buy one (if they looked nice and were not too expensive
EDIT: cause I just found this cool shirt!
http://www.etsy.com/listing/44402604/this-is-what-a-feminist-looks-like
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I made myself a tshirt that says ‘feminist’ (big white capital letters on a distressed dark grey background) (and when i say ‘I made’, I mean I designed it on Zazzle.com and it was made and sent to me).
The first time I wore it, you would have thought it said ‘Third Wife of Osama bin Laden’, or similar. One guy ahead of me in a queue turned arouns, saw it and said: ‘wooooah, ‘feminist’” and waved his hands around like you do when you’re explaining magic to young children. Totally freaked him out.
I also wore this to a pub recently. This was fortuitous, because it enabled me to follow the dumb twat who was wearing a tshirt that read (and I quote): ‘up the arse = no babies’. I shadowed him for a good half hour, just to redress the balance a bit.
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ahaha, love it! You’ve got guts!
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Absolutely hilarious.
Seriously, who made and who BUYS those t-shirts? (The up the arse ones.. losers)
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hysterical, love it!
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GIve her a break,way too much judgement.
Not a fan of Jackie O but seriously women attacking women thats helpful.
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Oh yes, because women should be exempt from criticism for fear of ‘judging’. That’s helpful.
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I think we have lost sight in this generation of what Feminism actually means.
It was only one generation ago that things we take for granted were not available for women. For eg:
- married women werent able to be employed at major banks. Single girls were able to get married and stay but if they left for any reason they werent able to come back. I’m sure there are other insitutions that were the same.
-there was no maternity leave entitlement. When you had a baby you left your job.
-a woman was openly and unapologetically not paid the same as a man for the same job.
-abortion wasnt freely available and neither was contraception.
- and one generation before that, married women werent actually able to hold property in their own names.
I can understand why Mia is so upset by Jackie’s view. Jackie’s success was only possible due to the trailblazing of feminists before her. Her hard work and talent would have been irrelevant in a 1950s and 60s Australia.
Jackie doesnt have to call herself a feminist, but I dont like it when women distance themselves from feminism as not being relevant anymore. Actually it is still relevant as there are many people still in power who are still converts to the whole idea that women should be treated equally to men in business and politics. They didnt grow up with it like we did.
Maybe Mia the question should be not whether or not we think we are feminists, but do we think that we have got to a point in the world where we are truly treated equally? Jackie might have given a different answer to that question.
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Accepting that equality of opportunity regardless of gender is fair doesn’t make you a feminist. It merely means you’re not prejudiced against women.
Feminism implies a strident anti-patriarchy (reflected by inversion of symbols of patriarchy such as bra-burning and hairy armpits). The only people who insist they are feminist when they are actually simply being reasonable are dinosaurs. Feminism is as dead as socialism. Both exist only in sloganeering. Eventually the “feminists” will realise this.
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“Feminism is as dead as socialism.”
You probably whinge & complain about unions, while being happy to take advantage of everything which unions have negiotiated for & achieved.
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The characterisation of feminism as strident bra-burning and hairy armpits has been used for years by those who seek to undermine feminism and the equality of women. Its very intellectually lazy stuff.
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I am a feminist and a socialist (by the way, have a degree in politics which is why I actually know what it means).
When I get the same pay for doing the same job as the guy sitting next to me, then I may actually concede that we can move on from feminism. But I don’t expect that to happen in my lifetime while there are so many women who see it as a label rather than a view about life.
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I don’t care where Jackie O stands on being a feminist.
But I am baffled as to why her salary is over a million dollars…
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She’s obviously (and depressingly) worth many times this in advertising revenue. Return on investment must be justified if she keeps earning it!
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Geez imagine what she’d earn if she saved lives or nursed sick children or saved the amazon…. Oh, that’s right those people earn a lot less. In our world it’s far more important to fawn all over someone like Kyle or pop singers.
A feminist? Not Jackie O that’s for sure!
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As a man reading this thread, I don’t know if I should laugh or be deeply concerned.
So EVERY successful woman has to be a feminist otherwise they run the risk of being shot down on public internet forums and by who,women?
What right does ANYONE have to question this persons belief on this matter? Why not be proud of her,applaud her for having a dream and going for it and making it to the top.
Who cares if one likes her program or not. The facts are Jackie O is a success story in an environment that was dominated by men,right?
Stop attacking her right to decide and embrace her success I say.
To all the proud feminists who say they believe in equality I ask just 2 questions.
1/ In the workforce,what is more discriminatory than a male in childcare? Or do they not belong in the childcare industry?
2/ Which industry in this great country of ours has a male wage and a seperate female wage for the same task?
P.S God bless you and your family Jackie O
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I don’t think you quite understand how the pay gap operates, do you?
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To enlighten you, men are more likely to be hired for jobs with a higher salary. There doesn’t need to be separate wages for men and women for women to be paid less. Insidious isn’t it? Clever men.
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In todays environment, to suggest 2 people are going for the same job and the male will get the job although the female is better qualified is simply not true.
This title has gone feral and all because a successful woman does not consider herself a feminist. I did not not realise that successful women had no choice to decide for themselves. That is what has enlightened me here shan.
Mish, I am glad you have one male friend working in childare for 10 years and I too know one women who sits on the Board of a large Company.What is your point.
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A male friend of mine is a childcare worker at a pre-school and has been doing it for 10 years. I don’t know anyone who has had a problem with it.
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Well, she did not “decide” anything , she just had no idea what the question was about !
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I’ve been singing this one from roof tops for a while now! THANK YOU, MIA!
I honestly believe there is a huge misconception out there about what feminism is. I have friends – my closest and dearest — who from all outward appearances seem to be feminists. But when asked if they’re a feminist? ‘Oh no, I’m not a feminist.’ I just want to scream, ‘what part of equality with men do you have a problem with?’. So damn infuriating.
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Why should we call female equality with men “feminism”? Why not call it “masculinism”?
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Because women are the underdogs in the male/female relationship? Thus it’s “Feminism” to promote women’s rights amongst men. We’re not fighting for men’s rights – they already have them.
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False. In the old patriarchal society, this was true. The rise of feminism has promoted women’s rights to equal status (a good thing!!) but in some areas, at the cost of men’s rights (a bad thing). Men have fallen behind in several areas due to “positive discrimination” and misandry is mainstream and accepted in many parts of academia, media, advertising, etc. In the post-feminist society, both men and women can be and are both the oppressor and the oppressed, depending on context. Men need their rights protected just as much as women do now – which is where masculism comes in.
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Proclaiming something which is still mainly true “false” . Men need to be protected from other men. WHY did I quit smoking??????
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You’ve just given the prime example of what’s wrong with some forms of feminism: demonising men. “Men need to be protected from other men”, you say. Feminism’s flaw is that it fails to see that women can be aggressors too, or oppressors via intellectual, social and political means, not just physical. Think about it: you cast all men as evil and violent. That is about the most bigoted, intellectually violent thing you could do, demonising men who read your post and telling them they are the only gender who can be bad. Men need their rights protected from other men, you say. Not so. Men need their rights protected from anyone, male or female, who would seek to diminish them. Men can be good or bad. Women can be good or bad. Welcome to Masculism. Female oppression such as yours is no better than patriarchal attitudes to women.
PS. I also just quit smoking … and trust me, this conversation is nearly driving me to reach for a cigarette, too. I weirdly empathise.
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Love! I cannot wait to be an History and English teacher and educate the teenagers of tomorrow about feminist movements, on Madonna, on texts like Moran’s and Greer’s!!
I really think it’s up to mothers and influential women in the media, positive female role models to instil the feminist values. A lot of what women generally believe is probably considered feminist, but they probably don’t know it or appreciate it!
I am woman hear me roar
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I don’t think this is as much of an outrage as Mia does, I think a big part of it semantics, and what people “perceive” the word feminist to mean.
If you asked Jackie if she believed in women’s rights, she’d say yes. I’m sure she shares Mia’s values on this front.
I think some people just think the word feminism means activism and advocacy, and they don’t feel the word encapsulates them and their “role”. I think it’s a misunderstanding of the word, not of women and their rights/achievements/progress…
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Um. Jackie O is certainly no role model.
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Yes! She is flakey and continues to work with one of the most abominable men in this country’s entertainment industry.
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I love Gloria Steinem’s quote : “A feminist is anyone who recognizes the equality and full humanity of women and men.”
I know I don’t get equal pay, I know the company I’m with is a dead end career as there are no women at all in upper management. So until I look around and see talented female peers getting the pay and promotions they deserve I’ll keep screaming from the roof tops I AM A FEMINIST!!
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As Dame Rebecca West famously said –
“I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat or a prostitute”
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LOVE this quote!
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Can’t prostitutes be feminists? Is there something wrong with them?
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I’m not about to judge prostitutes for their life choices and I’m not sure Ms West was either… I think her point is the assumption that a woman may perform as a prostitute when it’s not her choice to do so? Just a guess…
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I take that to mean when she doesn’t subscribe to the notion that as a woman her primary function is to be sexually available and attractive to men at all times.
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Why do we need labels? Labels are the crux of all hatred in the world. Black, white, muslim, jew, christian…. We all have the right to make our own choices without being labelled in a certain manner. I’m not saying that there shouldn’t be the title “feminism”, but just because someone believes in a movement, religion or moral view, should they be labelled as such? I say no. If Jackie O and others like her want to distance themselves from a label, that is there prerogative. If you look at the feminist movement, it is about choice and equality. If celebs choose not to label themselves, that is their choice.
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BTW, I tried to log on with fb but it seems to have failed.
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Feminism for many women is quite confusing. Many soft “f” feminists feel they cannot declare themselves unless they stride around with army issue boots, no bra and an inappropriate tattoo! Feminism is built around self belief, self acceptance and more importantly total acceptance of others. You can also admit to loving being a woman and yes – love men too!
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Mia, I am honestly one of your greatest fans and have been for over 10 years but I can’t say I’m with you on this one. I understand where you stand and how you label yourself but this isn’t about you, this is Jackie O and I feel she has the right to label (or not label) herself. Not everyone has to agree with your views and I definitely don’t agree with almost trying to bully her to do so by blogging about her.
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Isn’t feminism also about women being able to express one’s views despite societal pressure otherwise? So I support Jackie O to have her view that she does not consider herself to be a feminist.
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Jackie O is by far the sharpest, most authentic, compassionate, real person I know in the celebrity world.. Now that she is a non feminist, I believe she is an individual who should be placed on the highest pedestal of all.
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Her father-in-law said to her now husband, “She is very pretty, but she is not very bright”.
I think placing her on the highest pedestal if a bit extreme. She is on radio. She doesn’t save lives.
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Different people have different understandings of what a “feminist” is and is not. What you have outlined Mia sounds great, but for many women that definition doesn’t fit, and I think that is what the problem is. A few months ago I had quite a number of commenters flabbergasted when I posted that I didn’t consider myself a feminist, but as we discovered in the end, what I understood feminism to be (which had been influenced by the ‘feminists’ I’d been exposed to) wasn’t the same as their understanding. We were actually on the same page.
I believe that women should have equal pay for equal work, and that includes equal value placed on traditionally women dominated jobs compared to those traditionally dominated by males (which is where the true disparity is and stems from how women and men were paid at the turn of the twentieth century). I think we should have an equal voice as well. But I also believe that my husband is the head of my family and that my role is slightly different but just as important (equal, but not the same), and I am a stay at home mum, not because I love it more than my previous job, but because I believe that that is the best option for my kids while they are so young. And I don’t believe that women CAN have it all – there is always a balance and sometimes sacrifices need to be made. Some people will look at that and say that I’m not a feminist because it doesn’t fit in with their views of women, but isn’t the point of feminism that I can make my own decisions and shape my own role in the world? I make no apologies for my beliefs, nor do I expect all other women to share them.
Personally I think we do need to move forward and really look at what the terms “feminism” and “feminist” really mean in social context.
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I have never heard of someone referring to their partner as ‘head of the family’ before. If you don’t mind my asking, what does it actually mean in practice?
Growing up I probably thought of my father as head of the family but when I look back I see that my parents had their own money, made purchasing decisions together and basically lived under a ‘what mum says goes’ rule. So I guess I just swallowed some stereotype along the way. How does it work in your family?
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Hi Mags, thanks for asking
It’s a (often very misunderstood) biblical principle which comes from Ephesians 5, which (very very basically) tells wives to submit to their husbands and for husbands to love their wives. People often get caught up in the terminology, but all it really means (in my understanding) is that as a wife it is important that I support and show respect to my husband who is spiritually responsible for our family (basically, we make decisions together, but the buck stops with him). As a husband, he is expected to lay down his life for me. It’s leadership as service, rather than leadership as dictatorship. That’s a really basic (and probably very bad) explanation.
My family structure was very similar to yours growing up and I’m not very good at doing any of what I wrote above – I’m trying really hard to not go my own way and remember that we are a unit that is meant to work together, not how I want it to. It’s not everyone’s cup of tea but it really blesses our marriage and family by approaching marriage in this way.
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Interesting that you consider your husband is the head of your family. I can understand, then, when you say in your first paragraph that you don’t consider yourself a feminist.
But then I’m confused by the last line in your second last paragraph when you say that “isn’t the point of feminism that I can make my own decisions”?
So you’ve made a decision that your husband is the head of your family, ie relinquished some power to him. Interesting. But still confusing.
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I can see where you are coming from, but if you read my reply to Mags above you’ll see that it’s not about my husband making all of the decisions and me just doing what I am told.
But if that was how I saw my role as wife then I still think that there wouldn’t be a contradiction because it would be my choice, not an oppression forced on me by my husband.
This is the concept of feminism that I don’t agree with – that as a woman you must be in control and assertive all the time, and I just think that life is far more complicated than that. Sometimes you have to work with other people, or even sacrifice your own wants or opinion for a number of reasons (to not hurt the feelings of another, for the ‘greater good’ or even just because your the employee, not the employer). But like I also said before, I don’t think there is a clear definition of what feminism is, I think it varies from person to person.
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I’m not a feminist. I’m kinda over the whole “feminism is not about man hating – now here are all the things we don’t like about men” prevalent attitude amongst feminists. And I mean the BIG feminists, you know the ones who represent feminism the most, with their huge blogs and their misandric views. I can’t find one feminist blog that did not have the prevalent view that an acussed man is guilty when a women accusses him.
Let’s be real, a lot of women who do absolutely nothing in the realms of activism identify as feminists, call themselves feminists, but the ones who do identify as feminists behave quiet different in many cases.
Even you Mia have said ridiculing things like “What issues of inequality do men face, seriously?”
You clearly with that comment dismiss the notion that men have any issues worthy of discussion, in fact you went so far as to get Rick, a gay inner city office worker to write a completely factless opinion piece on why men aren’t oppressed, not that I have seen any men call themselves oppressed when talking about issues they face. It was just one huge straw man article, with no contact of men’s groups who support the men who have real issues.
Attitudes like that Mia are why little boys are too scared to come forward when sexually abused by women – They just have no faith in being believed when there is no support, no systems in place to let them know this happens to boys.
WHY?
Well, when the prevalent attitude is that this is a gender issue, it is fed money and support for the notion “females are victims – Men are abusers”.
There was a white feather campaign during the war that the FEMINIST suffragettes jumped on board and used to SHAME men into fighting for their country, yes that’s right the suffragettes that were busy trying to get the vote at the same time 80% of men including the one’s dying at war didn’t have either – That’s another thing you’ll never hear a feminist admit.
Now we have a white ribbon campaign from the feminists telling boys and men they are so putrid, so broken, so inclined towards violence that they need to take a pledge and actively control their maleness lest it manifest itself in a form that will hurt women. Yet the mere consideration that we have a yellow ribbon day in which mothers pledge not to kill their children, because statistically they do so more, it would never happen.
Too many prominent feminists have said too many misandric man hating things and perhaps this track record, not to mention the sheer weight of feminists blogs that contain anti male sentiments, that’s probably why some women have no intention of labeling themselves feminists.
Maybe it’s the call from select feminists that men are poisoned with testosterone or that we need male culling all met with almost a horrifying zero opposition from other feminists who don’t correct them or accurately distance themselves from these women, but yeah, mostly because they don’t speak out against these sort of claims.
Maybe it’s the fact that feminism ties too close to socialism and most feminists decree you not to be one if you believe in the good of capitalist freedoms of choice, like the one’s they relate so emphatically to the choices they wish to make with their bodies.
Sarah Palin called herself a feminist, uh oh, right wing christian – The feminists were having none of that and quite loudly decreed she was not, now had she been a democrat…?
Maybe it’s because every single time, like on this site, some one brings up a male issue, it is shot down with emotional barrages always absent of fact or empathy and dismissed as “what about teh menz”, yet it’s fine at every occasion when discussing female issues to make passing comments involving how men have it so easy or are lucky to not have issues.
It’s kinda almost hypocritical. But it makes my point.
*Women on Mamamia bring up how men have it easy – No problem
*Man brings up male issues – “Big problem, go away, not about menz, poor malez”
I’ve seen Mia herself fall completely victim to the whole apex fallacy where the instance of a few hundred male ceo’s or politicians are at all it takes to completely dismiss men’s issues as a privileged whinge, even though the other 12 million odd men in Australia who will die younger than you, go homeless before you, lose custody of their children before you, raise kids that aren’t theirs with out knowing and gain major diseases all more often that you, all worth being ignored because there are a few ceo’s and politicians looking after their self interests.
As if there are any laws or policies that are pro-male, anti-female, but who has a ministry devoted to their entire gender? Who receives more welfare? More health research funding? Which gender has the voting majority?
Which gender spends 80% of all purchases and is ergo the MOST prized consumer and treated thusly?
NOT MEN
Who are these people catering to men’s every whims?
There is a whole other story to why men who are not CEO’s or Politicians have problems, but the casual way in which they are dismissed by prominent feminists is shameful, worse when some of these women have boys.
Why do feminists take just great measure and go to such great lengths to censure men speaking about issues that affect them?
Look at your kids if you have a boy and a girl.
Your son will likely die younger, he will contract diseases at a greater rate than your daughter, he will more likely drown, he will more likely be killed by a female relative and 60% more likely because he is a BOY, he is more likely to be homeless, he is more likely to lose his assets and visitation to the most important thing on the planet – his kids, he will if not by you, by the media be told he is morally inferior and that to be a good human being he must suppress his maleness because other males have done bad things, he is less likely to gain a university degree, but still has 7 times less scholarships, he will have less health services available and less funding to ensure he lives longer even though he will die earlier.
There are hundreds of other issues, but they will likely never see the light of day because people like me who care about seeing boys having a future and growing up to be good, healthy, respected men, are shut down at every opportunity as being bitter, cant get laid, or as being misogynistic all without ever saying a negative word about women.
Debate is shut down before it begins and frequently it is feminists doing the shutting down, never the addressing of men’s issues because they are for “equality”.
To quote a feminist:
“Everyone has some oppression, but when your sister is under a boulder and you’re doing nothing, you haven’t earned the right to moan about the stone in your shoe.”
It’s that attitude plus chivalry that means men do not get heard, so for now I’ll be an equalist or humanitarian or any non-divisive label. Thank you.
From someone who is not a bitter, women hating misogynist, has no problems in bed, is in a loving relationship and has never been hurt, believes in rights for women in countries where they do not have them and is not conflating arguments.
Cue the ad hominen.
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“And I mean the BIG feminists, you know the ones who represent feminism the most,”
No, I don’t – who are you talking about?
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@ Lulu
“When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression.” — Sheila Jeffrys
“I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honourable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.” – Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor
“To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking dildo.” -– Valerie Solanas
“I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.” — Andrea Dworkin
“Rape is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear” — Susan Brownmiller
“The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men.” — Sharon Stone
“In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent.” — Catherine MacKinnon
“The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.” — Sally Miller Gearhart
“Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience.” – Catherine Comins
“All men are rapists and that’s all they are” — Marilyn French
“Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release.” — Germaine Greer.
“The nuclear family must be destroyed… Whatever its ultimate meaning, the break-up of families now is an objectively revolutionary process.” — Linda Gordon
“The male is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness…can be trained to do most things.”
– Jilly Cooper
Let’s see, the National organization for women actually came out against shared parenting using the “bad male” as it’s basis for argument.
Shelia Gregoire is a feminist who believes men’s lives are worth less than women’s.
“The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist” — Ti-Grace Atkinson
“The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men.” — Sharon Stone
“If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males.” –Mary Daly, former Professor at Boston College, 2001.
“I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He’s just incapable of it.”
– Barbara Jordan; Former Congresswoman.
Men’s sexuality is mean and violent, and men so powerful that they can ‘reach WITHIN women to ****/construct us from the inside out.’ Satan-like, men possess women, making their wicked fantasies and desires women’s own. A woman who has sex with a man, therefore, does so against her will, ‘even if she does not feel forced.’
– Judith Levine
“Men, as a group, tend to be abusive, either verbally, sexually or emotionally. There are always the exceptions, but they are few and far between (I am married to one of them). There are different levels of violence and abuse and individual men buy into this system by varying degrees. But the male power structure always remains intact.”
Message on FEMISA
“Overthrowing capitalism is too small for us. We must overthrow the whole…patriarch!” (Gloria Steinem
To back up my earlier point about feminism’s roots in socialism.
The sad thing is I could copy and paste these all day for the next month and still find more from the likes of Amanda Marcotte and Jessica Valenti.
It’s sad but, very real.
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Jilly Cooper? Sharon Stone? OMFG.
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Touché
ROFLMGDMFAO
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Not One
BRAVO.
After reading all posts on this thread, I laugh that the women here can’t agree on the definition of feminism.
People,love all equally for the sake of our children.
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Geez, are you right? Kinda long, hey…?
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Not One I respect your passion. As for feminism, I would go so far as to say that you sound very much like a feminist to me, or a feminist in waiting perhaps. Let me explain … a lot of the issues you raise that affect men and boys could arguably stem from the macho culture that is very strong in Australia. In my view traditional feminist issues would help both men and women, for eg, if women were paid equally perhaps raising children wouldn’t seem like women’s work and men would get a better share of custody arrangements. The stress of being ‘the provider’ then wouldn’t fall primarily on men’s shoulders. Paid Maternity Leave has been extraordinarily hard to get in this country and even now the changes didn’t go far enough. If more men took this up as an issue perhaps we would have paternity leave as well. In my view, the more equal a relationship is the better its chance of avoiding breakdown.
Regarding White Ribbon Day I would hope that rather than being horrified by the way they have chosen to frame their campaign that instead you are horrified that such a group needs to exist.
By the way, I am interested in the point you raise about little boys being sexually abused by women. Do you have any statistics on this? Surely it is so rare as to be an anomaly. My understanding is that men are by far and away the perpetrators of sexual crimes against children (boys and girls) and adults (mainly women).
As for the lack of men’s issues on this site, it’s a bit like complaining that Cosmo doesn’t focus on men’s issues enough – this site is targeted at women, of course it focuses primarily on female-centric issues.
I fear that in focusing on men’s issues you have become anti-feminist when I think it could actually go a long way to helping your cause.
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Boys being sexually abused by women is so rare that it has to be an anomaly? WTF? I have no stats for you but I have heard of 3 cases where boys were sexually abused by women. 2 cases were told to me personally and the 3rd was relayed to me by a relative of a man who’s grandmother abused him. It is not as common as men abusing young girls or boys but it is far, far from an anomaly. Men are just far less likely to report it because it attracts such disbelieve. I mean even you called it an anomaly! I am gobsmacked at that.
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If reading that was a waste of my time, what does it say about the person who wrote it? Waste of space.
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Thank you anon for not only proving my point that anything I might say would be met with insults and derision but doing so in such a succinct fashion, kudos for confirming the last sentence of my first ever post
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How did you come to the conclusion that the White Ribbon campaign was asking men to control their maleness lest it manifest itself in violence? I truly want to know.
Also I have a son so your post has given me a lot to ponder and be aware
of. I found it very interesting. I would expand but am on my phone and it is hard to reply on this thing!!
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“I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat”
Rebecca West, 1913
An oldie, but such a goodie.
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Absolutely love this!
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I just dont like the word… I think the reason women dont want to say they are a feminist is because of the stereotype that all feminits are crazy men hating ladies. Now I know that we are trying to change that sterotype but I can understand why women say they arent one…
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Jackie is not the sharpest tool in the shed.
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That comment is neither smart nor helpful in this debate.
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Jackie O a role model? Talented? Oh please! She flew into radio on the coat tails of her then husband. She is a joke and giggles at her co-host who has got to be one of the worst broadcasters in the Asia Pacific Region. And her behaviour is accepted. I’m sure she is quite lovely and a devoted mum and blah, blah, blah but please don’t call her a role model.
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Totally agree with you Lisa
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Jackie O IS a role model. Every time I read about her and vile Kyle, I roll on the floor, and puke……
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A roll model – agreed. I roll my eyes at her a lot.
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YES! YES! YES! What she (Mia) and Caitlin Moran said.
How To Be a Woman should be compulsory reading at school then we wouldn’t have so many young women having identity issues when really it’s a no brainer-if you’re for progression you’re a feminist. If you’re for oppression you’re not a feminist.
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I think her actions speak louder than her words on this one. Whether or not you admire her ethics, her perseverance and prominence in what is overwhelmingly a man’s world seems to me proof of a feminist example, whether she likes to admit it or not.
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Jackie O has proved over and over again on her show that she is lacking an ethical and moral compass so are we really surprised that she isn’t a feminist? I was more surprised that she earns over a million bucks a year. No wonder she doesn’t want to upset the apple cart!
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This article on Jackie O and Kylie’s ‘producer’ seems particularly relevant to this discussion… http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/03/26/kyle-sandilands-producers-pet-project-brunolovesboobs/
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Mia, why is Jackie not allowed to say she is not a feminist? I think you are way too hung up on a word. Leave the woman alone, I actually respect Jackie a lot more now for just being happy with who she is not trying to prove a point.
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I think the issue is why Jackie-O doesn’t think she’s a feminist. Why does she want the equality but not the label?
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“Women are STILL not paid the same amount as men for doing the same job.”
In my workplace this is true, but only because women rarely ask for raises. When I brought it up in my last performance review, my manager said that out of the 32 reviews she’s done that week (21 of those for women) I was the first woman who had asked for a raise. All the guys had asked. I got my raise, simply by asking.
If you don’t put it out there, management is just going to assume your happy enough with your pay. Rarely will you get a raise without at least mentioning the topic.
I prefer the term humanist too. For me that encompasses feminism.
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A lot of women these days tend to distance themselves from the term ‘feminism’ because of the actions of some (not all) feminists over the past decades – misandry and denigration of men is not something that most people (including women) want to be a part of. I agree that there should be a reclamation of feminism as a positive movement centred on assertiveness for women, not aggressiveness against men. That said, not every person needs to be politically engaged, nor ‘must’ they self-identify as a feminist if they don’t wish (freedom ftw!) – although I don’t really know anyone who would not agree with equality.
Also – the gender pay gap is a myth. It is downright illegal for an employer to discriminate on gender and doing so is completely disgusting. If there is an apparent disparity among graduates, it’s much more likely the choice of careers/employers that these graduates are making, or perhaps their negotiating skills. Gender discrimination simply isn’t allowed to happen and it’s wrong to conclude that this is the reason for differences in incomes across the genders.
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Hi Sam – I know not of the misandry you speak of. I’ve never encountered any man-hating among any feminist I’ve ever met.
A hatred of inequality? Yes. But good men hate that too.
And I don’t see how you can call the gender pay gap a myth when the ABS have statistics that prove it to be fact. Just because it isn’t fair or isn’t legal, doesn’t mean it isn’t so.
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Mia, I haven’t read many feminist texts, but I have read quotes in articles here and there, where I’ve thought ‘Wow, you really don’t like me (as a man) much do you?’
I got curious and just googled ‘mysandrist feminist quotes’ and found plenty. Sure, some furnished by MRA nutters, but I certainly wasn’t feeling much love while reading them.
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Hi Mia.
Your comment reminds me of how I used to think about women – “there’s no misogyny anymore!” – but as you are aware, this is not the reality, and you are probably more acutely aware of this because you are female and you face this on a daily basis. The same thing applies for men – perhaps because I am one and I experience the misandry and negative attitudes on a daily basis, I am more perceptive of these widespread attitudes in society and the media than you are. In amongst the healthy, egalitarian feminism there is a great deal of misandry and oppressive/negative attitudes towards men. Germaine Greer is a good example of this, but there are many much worse than she, and these attitudes are quite widespread (and, shockingly, ‘acceptable’), especially in academia and in parts of the media. Studying an arts degree at university is quite difficult for a male student, trust me: we are shouted down and often silenced by the more aggressive feminists in the lectures, usually for expressing anything positive about men’s rights or masculism. Often we are looked down at or treated as stupid simply for being male. That’s without taking into account how we are now represented in mainsteam advertising and media now. Misandry is abounding more and more, and goes far less challenged than misogyny does, because many men have not learned to assert their rights and position in the same way women have in a post-feminist society.
I mean the gender pay gap is a myth in that a corporation by law must pay the same people the same wage for the same work, regardless of gender. Do you think this is not happening? If it isn’t, it’s a breach of the law and blatant discrimination, and must be stopped. However, I am quite sure that most corporations these days would not be foolish or backwards enough to do something so unjust. If, on average, women receive less pay than men, surely it must be concluded that there are reasons for this. Perhaps – as other readers have commented – they are not as skilled at asking for promotions and raises? Perhaps they have a tendency as a cohort to choose professions that are lower-paid? Perhaps choosing part-time roles or leaving work to raise children plays a part in this, too? Do you think these factors might weigh in quite significantly, rather than institutionalised gender discrimination, which is an outlawed practice?
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“Perhaps they have a tendency as a cohort to choose professions that are lower-paid? Perhaps choosing part-time roles or leaving work to raise children plays a part in this, too? Do you think these factors might weigh in quite significantly, rather than institutionalised gender discrimination, which is an outlawed practice?”
Sorry, but this is sexist. If we were talking about race instead of gender, it would be racist.
You should be able to parent and work the hours of your choosing in the profession of your choosing with the support of stable, affordable childcare REGARDLESS OF YOUR GENDER. This doesn’t happen so women END UP SACRIFICING careers in order to raise a family. In European countries where leave is given EQUALLY TO PARENTS, women return to the workforce more succesfully than they do in Australia, England and the US.
I think you’ve put the cart before the horse in your argument – these things (part-time work, career sacrifice, lower-pay) exist BECAUSE women are the ones to access / create them, rather than the other way around. Do you honestly think its an accident that women en masse ‘choose’ to work in teaching / nursing / community care where pay rates are so much lower than, say merchant banking?
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You are way off base with your assertion of bigotry – I’m ruthlessly egalitarian. Calling men sexist is another one of those aggressive silencing/shaming techniques some people use to stop men expressing opinions they don’t like. This kind of trigger-happy labelling has no part in a respectful, healthy discussion.
I don’t agree that either gender should be able to randomly choose the hours they work – the strategic needs of their employer and the requirements of the employee’s role would surely dictate this, not the employee. Wherever possible, I would hope that workplaces accommodate parental leave into career progression, and I know of many parents who do indeed keep their job and return to it after a year or so (isn’t that what parental leave is for, for any gender?).
I certainly didn’t assert that women SHOULD perform particular roles, but I do not think it is inaccurate to observe that that trend still exists in the majority of cases, hence, this might well be a contributing factor to the matter of the (mythical) “gender pay gap”. The same goes for the career choices. I don’t think anyone’s gender dictates what career they should do, but just as it is typical to find more men in construction and labouring, it is also typical to find more women in carer-based or teaching roles. An observation does not mean I believe this is the ‘correct’ order of things, but just how things currently tend to be. Please avoid making blanket assertions of bigotry just to silence opinions you find challenging.
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The gender pay gap is not myth, it’s well-documented.
You use the word ‘choice’ in your argument and I take issue with this. In our society and in many less privileged ones, a GReAT MANY women have no choice in their work due to a variety of circumstances – personal, political, social, etc. The point is that it’s ingrained gender discrimination in all BUT law. The feminist movement should be about giving women proper choices regardless of the hinderances they face in life.
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I’m afraid we just won’t agree then, since I actually believe all people have a choice in how their life turns out. All people – men and women, thanks to feminism – are now free to decide where their careers will go if they have the drive and ability to advance them. All PEOPLE (men too, not just women) face hindrances in their lives which can impact on how free they are to make such choices – this is not in the slightest based on gender. What is it that happens to ALL women, purely because of their gender, that hinders their careers more than men? There isn’t anything. There are always choices to be made and a person lives with those choices. You have offered no proof that this ‘ingrained gender discrimination’ exists and I fail to see how it does.
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“All people – men and women, thanks to feminism – are now free to decide where their careers will go if they have the drive and ability to advance them.’
Not if you’re a an living in Saudi Arabia or Iran, for starters. Thai, Burmese, Vietnamese, Mexican, Pakistani, African women all over the continent, Nepali women… they are the one need feminism more than ever.
And this is my point. We look at feminism from a first-world perspective, when it still needs to be encouraged and embraced in developing countries and in countries where dictatorships *actively* TARGET women for being, well, women and alive.
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My comment obviously referred to Australia, which is the country in which we live. As you have chosen not to counter my arguments, and in fact tried to deflect the discussion elsewhere, I’m assuming you accept that my points are in fact valid here in Australia and that women do indeed have equality here, because they do.
In many other countries, women do have severely diminished rights, and I agree that feminism certainly has a place in these nations. Perhaps the feminist movement in general should push hard for women’s rights in these countries? Although certainly, I know many women who already do this.
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You know what they say, Sam – never assume. You just make an ass out of yourself.
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Just further proof that some ‘feminists’ like you are unable to debate a subject on its merits, and end up going for snide ad-hominems when you’re boxed in and proved wrong. I rest my case.
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“Perhaps they have a tendency as a cohort to choose professions that are lower-paid? Perhaps choosing part-time roles or leaving work to raise children plays a part in this, too? Do you think these factors might weigh in quite significantly, rather than institutionalised gender discrimination, which is an outlawed practice?”
Sorry, but this is sexist. If we were talking about race instead of gender, it would be racist.
Actually, there is no sexist nor racist letter in this whole paragraph. You take race into the discussion here, so let me do the same to illustrate my point:
This is where we start to talk about genetics. It is a well known fact that many people from asian descent are lactose intolerant. The figures concerning this, when compared to people from caucasion, negro, or any other ‘races”, descent are baffling.
Is this being racist? Uhh… NO! This is merely stating a fact. A fact based on scientific proof even; genetics. There are certain gene combinations that either cause lactose-intolerance, or a predisposition to it. Does this mean that all people from asian descent are lactose-intolerant? No. It smiply means that from a genetical point of view, any random new born baby of asian descent is (much) more likely to be lactose-intolerant than babies from other races’ descent.
Now lets look again at the comment Sam made. He states that women have certain tendencies. Like, for instance, not being as assertive as most men in asking for raises and promotions. Once again, like lactose-intolerance in many people from asian descent, there is a genetical basis for this phenomenon. Women are predisposed to be the ‘peacekeeper’, just as it is genetically determined that women have both the mental and physical capacities to go through childbirth and, regardless of the pains and stresses it brings with it, form the most special bond possible with their child (our body actually synthesises a hormone that allows us to consciously ‘forget’ about all that hardship. Pretty awesome huh? The memories are still there, don’t get me wrong, but just not constantly on our mind, allowing us to look past it. Pretty handy when you realise that human beings, just like any other organism, have a tendency to hate, and react aversely to, whatever hurts them….).
Note how I say ‘predisposed’! Just like not all people from asian descent are lactose-intolerant, not all women are predisposed to having a ‘peacekeeper’ mindset, and some women even cannot love their children (which is not a haul at post-natal depressions mind you! Yes, one may be predisposed to this, but I would never ever blame anyone for this. However, one of my dearest friends gets the S beaten out of her by her mum non-stop. No love there if you ask me. Pretty aggressive too huh, regardless of her mum being a woman and all….?!).
Baseline is, there simply are gene-combinations that predispose women to certain behavioural processes. Once again, not all women, but a good majourity at least. Granted, evolution has nourished these traits by ‘killing off’ women that were not of the, for instance, ‘peacekeeper’ mindset. Men wouldn’t agree with their wives talking back at them, leading to more deaths of women with these more assertive traits. Definately wrong, but none-the-less true.
So, what did we learn from this? Men and women differ when it comes to their genetic make-up. Nothing more, nothing less. Does this mean that women indeed tend to be less forthcoming when it comes to wanting a raise or promotion? Definately! Same goes for why many men are pretty darn contest-oriented. Same goes the other way, why so many women are so incredibly loving, and so many men so very protective. Are there men that are still chauvinists?! Oh yeah. But also, there are heaps of women that are cold-hearted backstabbers.
Really, Sam is right. And the beauty of it is, that there is a scientific basis for it too!
For future reference, I am a 3d year Genetics student. A FEMALE Genetics student at that. Also, before the subject shifts from what I’m trying to convey here to my use of gammar, or lack thereof, I am both foreign (Dutch) as well as dyslectic. Feel free to comment on it, I’m a big girl, but at least stay serious when it comes to the actual points I am making in this post.
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Mia – These quotes are taken from a post above by Not One, so you can now quite safely say that you HAVE encounted man-hating/misandry from known feminists.
“When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression.” — Sheila Jeffrys
“I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honourable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.” – Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor
“To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking dildo.” -– Valerie Solanas
“I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.” — Andrea Dworkin
“Rape is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear” — Susan Brownmiller
“The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men.” — Sharon Stone
“In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent.” — Catherine MacKinnon
“The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.” — Sally Miller Gearhart
“Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience.” – Catherine Comins
“All men are rapists and that’s all they are” — Marilyn French
“Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release.” — Germaine Greer.
“The nuclear family must be destroyed… Whatever its ultimate meaning, the break-up of families now is an objectively revolutionary process.” — Linda Gordon
“The male is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness…can be trained to do most things.”
– Jilly Cooper
Let’s see, the National organization for women actually came out against shared parenting using the “bad male” as it’s basis for argument.
Shelia Gregoire is a feminist who believes men’s lives are worth less than women’s.
“The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist” — Ti-Grace Atkinson
“The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men.” — Sharon Stone
“If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males.” –Mary Daly, former Professor at Boston College, 2001.
“I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He’s just incapable of it.”
– Barbara Jordan; Former Congresswoman.
Men’s sexuality is mean and violent, and men so powerful that they can ‘reach WITHIN women to ****/construct us from the inside out.’ Satan-like, men possess women, making their wicked fantasies and desires women’s own. A woman who has sex with a man, therefore, does so against her will, ‘even if she does not feel forced.’
– Judith Levine
“Men, as a group, tend to be abusive, either verbally, sexually or emotionally. There are always the exceptions, but they are few and far between (I am married to one of them). There are different levels of violence and abuse and individual men buy into this system by varying degrees. But the male power structure always remains intact.”
Message on FEMISA
“Overthrowing capitalism is too small for us. We must overthrow the whole…patriarch!” Gloria Steinem
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Mia,
If you haven’t heard of any mysandry then you really need to get out more. For a start, it exists in spades, it’s not recognised and seems to be part of the entire force behind feminism. To me and many, many men, feminism is about putting another down to boost one’s self.
Continual references to a man’s penis size by women is a simple case in point. You don’t think that is mysandry?
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The gender pay gap doesn’t refer to men and women doing the exact same job, but comparing jobs which are similar in qualifications, difficulty, responsibility etc. In most cases, the traditionally male dominated ones will be paid a lot better than traditionally female dominated ones.
(Okay, so this is taking me back to Australian history at Uni)…In Australia it all stems back to the turn of the twentieth century when the Harvester Judgment in 1907 set the minimum wage – Men were entitled to 7 shillings per day while women were entitled to a fraction of that since they weren’t ‘supporting’ families as the breadwinner. Women never caught up and when men and women started to cross into roles that were non-traditional and ‘equal pay’ came in, the disparity in the pays for those roles remained, it’s just that now everyone in that role was paid at that rate. It’s all about the VALUE placed on a job.
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The word feminism conjures up images of radical women with hairy aim pits. The idea of simple equality has been lost amongst outspoken and radical women of the seventies who have paved the way for future generations. I hate the term and hate the idea that it might define me. I am however grateful to be living now when I am accepted as a career professional, a mother and a person who is valued equally amongst my peers of all gender, shape and sexual orientation. I prefer to focus on equality for all people rather than feminism.
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Lil, that’s exactly why we have to reclaim the term!
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Hey Lil – but men already have equality. That makes no sense. The equality women are striving for is to be equal with men.
Women having the same rights as men doesn’t take anything away from the men. Rights aren’t finite. You don’t have to choose.
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In Australia, women do have the same rights as men. No we may not always receive equal pay, but there is no law saying women must be paid less. If you are receiving less than the men you work with, and you have asked and been denied a raise, then either you are not as good at your job as the guys or your employers suck. But you certainly have the right to be paid the same.
f we’re talking about other places, then no, women don’t always have the same rights, but then in some places a man of a lower class is valued less than an animal, so being equal to a man isn’t necessarily the same thing as attaining basic human rights. For me that’s where being a humanist comes into play.
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I hate disagree, but I think there are a few areas where men don’t have equality.
My number one grievance is with a disparity in parental leave. Men don’t get anywhere near the same amount as women in most jobs. I undertand for the first few weeks a woman really needs that time, but afterwards, surely a man could help here too.
Men not expected to give up work to help raise their child in their first 6-12 months of life? Why not?
What about when a gay male couple adopt a baby, how much paid time are they given off work?
And my husband frequently got discriminated against whileworking with children in the childcare and teacing industries, merely because he was a young male. Especially older female teachers gave him very little credit despite years of experience behind him.
It feels like the same thing here – even thoughg gender based discrimination is illegal, and his pay wouldn’t be affected, his treatment in the job certainly was.
I agree it’s not as bad as the case for women, but to say they are treated equally in all cases is not true.
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Hello Mia,
You say “men already have equality”
Can you please explain why in Australia we have only female gyms yet all male gyms are illegal?
Is that not discriminatory?
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Mia,
My 10 year old son was watching TV the other day and he appeared quiet worried, I asked him what was the matter and he said ‘Mum I just seen 2 ads on TV 1 for Finish dish tablet and one for KMart and not a single man was on the ad, Men shop and do the dishes as well as women’……
Mia…how do I explain to my 10 year old son that most females believe in equal rights but they also want to control most things traditionally female, haven’t we got to the point of beinging as equal as we can be with men…..should I suggest he just cut it off??
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You know who makes those ads? Men! Lord knows I don’t want to control the dishwasher or anything else in my house!
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It’s very dangerous when high profile women actively distance themselves from feminism, because it reinforces the idea that feminists are bitter, hairy lesbians – rather than just every day women.
Feminism carries certain connotations with it, because people associate it with radical feminism (which has actually done huge amounst for women), which a lot of men and women don’t necessarily agree with.
The more women who embrace the definition, the more people will realise that it’s not about hating men or refusing to shave your legs – it’s about wanting to not be targeted for being a women (with assault, lower pay, worse jobs, sexism, etc).
I love Ashley Judd for that “This is what a feminist looks like” tshirt!
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Bill Bailey wears that tee also. Legend.
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Damn, I already love him!
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I saw someone wearing that T-shirt the other day at a music festival. Loved it
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Actually, I think it’s fine to call yourself an equalist. I’m not a feminist, nor a ‘masculinist’. I believe in equality, and sex/gender is irrelevant. Feminism, to me, along with many negative stereotypes, implies favouring of women and their rights. That does not mean I don’t value the progress and achievements that have been gained, but rather I think that now we have made it this far, the true ideal is gender irrelevance. No room for the word ‘feminism’ there. I think clinging to the term feminism actually pointedly keeps us back in those dark old days, reminding us of how it used to be. Is this a good thing? Better to be forgotten and irrelevant, if you ask me. THAT’S progress.
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Someone may have already raised this point, but i just wanted to comment.
I think the word feminism is off putting to many women. not because of what it means to be a FEMINIST, but because of what feminism is usually associated with which is angry lesbians who protest at every chance and hate all men. And while that is a huge stereotype, and incredibly incorrect, that is what feminism is associated with. I personally dont like referring to myself as a ‘feminist’, but rather an ‘equalist’. The ‘Fem’ part implies that it is to support women AND perhaps lower the rights of men. I have grown up in a fantastic part of history where i have always felt that i have had the same rights as my male peers and have never felt disadvantaged in comparison, so for this reason, i dont see the need to support womens rights.. purely because i didnt need to!
Saying that, i have joined an amnesty group at my university so i understand the discrimination.
I think the term ‘feminist’ needs to be changed to ‘equalist’ and there is nothing wrong with that.
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Hey Meg – but unless more women like me and Jackie O and others start to own the word and reclaim it from that ridiculous antiquated and blatantly inaccurate stereotype – it will endure!
The only way to demolish a stereotype is to disprove it with a different one. That’s why we need women like Jackie O to not be scared of it.
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Mia, do you have any idea how immature that sounds? Reclaim the name? Maybe it’s time for it to die a natural death.
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Immature? I’m not sure how it is immature to promote and claim ownership of something that has shaped our lives so profoundly. If feminism were to die a natural death as you hope, we’d all be worse off.
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Oh absolutely, it would be great if it happened! Only, I don’t see it ever happening. Stereotypes are hard to shift.
Because of all the stereotypes associated with feminism, and all the misunderstandings, it just seems like it would be more logical to adopt a new, more egalitarian word. Especially because, if people heard Jackie O say she was a feminist, people may change their view of Jackie O, and not their view on feminism.
And please do not think that I do not appreciate the history of Feminism anon- I think it was amazing and without I wouldn’t experience the equality I have with my male friends and family. I wouldn’t even be able to go to university! It is not that I think it should die a ‘natural death’- I do not even think it should die at all. I am just saying that it is understandable that not all women characterise and define themselves as a feminist because the term seems so outdated when they see how equal we have all become, and it seems to represent a different period in time where we were not equal with our male family and friends, and we couldn’t receive a tertiary education .
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THANKS Mia!. I too had this reaction and I’m soooo sick of hearing these high profile women exclaim that they’re not feminists. Sarah Jessica Parker said the same thing the other week in a profile in a sunday mag. I’m happy if women want to say they’re not feminists although I can’t fathom why, but she could at least articulate why. Jackie O couldn’t and said nothing else really at all in the article which just seemed a PR puff piece to help her poor reputation at present. I mean, they mentioned her motherhood at least 5 times. I read when she had the baby the radio station she works for built her a studio at home so she could work from home with baby. Feminism got her there. I also don’t believe she’s as vapid as she tries to present herself. Saying ‘you know’ in response to the journalists question?? For me, that says, well, I can’t possibly say I’m a feminist, then I won’t seem ‘hot’ any more.
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