Dear Jackie O and Every Other Woman Who Doesn’t Consider Herself A Feminist,
Really? I mean REALLY? I was so confused when I read the following quote from you yesterday:
Jackie O
Do you consider yourself a feminist?
“No,” she says, with a shy smile.
“Why?” I cry in disappointed tones.
“You’re a woman.”
“I know,” she says, laughing. “I know. I do feel like I have achieved so much, in radio especially. But I’ve never considered myself a feminist. I’m just, you know, I’m doing what I love. I’m really proud of how far I’ve come. But … you know.”
Here’s Mia and Lisa Wilkinson talking to Karl Stefanovic about Jackie O’s feminist quote on The Today Show:
The thing is Jackie -I’ve known you a long time and I like you a lot. You are a force in radio, a role model for many women and your success is no accident. You’ve worked hard and you’re talented.
In many ways, the power you have in your field has paved the way for many other women like you to be given a chance in a hugely competitive industry that’s mostly dominated by men.
So I’m confused by your insistence that you’re not a feminist.
What do you think feminism is? Or rather, why are you so keen to distance yourself from it?
As self-described “strident feminist” and my hero Caitlin Moran says in her book How to be a Woman:
Caitlin Moran
“We need to reclaim the word ‘feminism’. We need the word ‘feminism’ back real bad.
When statistics come in saying that only 29% of American women would describe themselves as feminist – and only 42% of British women – I used to think, What do you think feminism IS, ladies? What part of ‘liberation for women’ is not for you? Is it freedom to vote? The right not to be owned by the man you marry? The campaign for equal pay? ‘Vogue’ by Madonna? Jeans? Did all that good shit GET ON YOUR NERVES? Or were you just DRUNK AT THE TIME OF THE SURVEY?”
There seem to be a lot of women who are confused about the meaning of feminism. Lady Gaga in 2009 said: “I’m not a feminist. I hail men. I love men.”
HUH? Who said anything about NOT loving men? Where does that even come from? Since when did feminism have anything to do with rejecting men or femininity?
Equally frustrating is the “I’m not a feminist, but…” brigade.
“These days, well-intentioned suggestions of equality often follow in the footsteps of the phrase “I’m not a feminist, but…”, as if feminism is a disease we want to ensure everyone we don’t have before proceeding. As if feminism and being a feminist is something to be embarrassed about.”
“Most of us like being women but the strife between wanting to embrace both femininity and feminism seems difficult at times. Questions like “I like wearing make-up, so am I really a feminist?”, “I’m really into fashion, so am I really a feminist?”, “I like to cook for my husband, so am I really a feminist?” or “I want to stay home with my children instead of work, so am I really a feminist?” pop up, and the answer is always yes.
Feminism is anything but the rejection of femininity. It is about embracing that femininity and demanding that the world embrace it the way they have embraced masculinity for most of our history. It is about ensuring that women always have both a choice and a voice. It is about not being devalued because we happen to be women.”
Yep, and spare me the ‘humanist’ label because it’s naive and misses the point. In a recent interview about her role in the movie I Don’t Know How She Does It, a movie that would have been impossible without feminism, Sarah Jessica Parker was at pains to point out: ”I took a page from [the playwright] Wendy Wasserstein’s book. She said, ‘I’m not a feminist, I’m a humanist.”’
That would be ace if humans all had the same rights but we don’t. Women are STILL not paid the same amount as men for doing the same job. And any half-decent bloke would be as appalled by that as women should be.
From the Herald Sun:
Australian Bureau of Statistics studies of Australia’s almost nine million employees have found only 151,000 were women earning $2000 a week or more, compared with 570,400 men.
The ABS reports looked at employee earnings and also analysed information by gender. In every wage category, on average, women earn less than men from the time they start work through to retirement.
Keelia Fitzpatrick, Youth Officer with the Victorian Trades Hall Council, said for young women who finished university, the gender pay gap was present from day one of their careers. “Figures show that across industries female graduates will earn on average $2000 less per year than their male counterparts,” Ms Fitzpatrick said. “This debunks the myth that the gender pay gap can be explained by family commitments.”
Girlfriends, come on. Feminism is simply about believing women should have equality and the right to make decisions about our own lives. Whether to work, who to marry, what jobs to do, whether to have children, when to have them, how many, who to vote for, what to wear…….the list goes on.
You want to give those choices back? You want men to make the decisions about your lives? About your body? Well, sure. Then perhaps you’re not a feminist.
But I don’t know ANY woman who believes she’s not worthy of the same rights as men, that she should earn the same money for doing the same job.
You want to know what it’s not like to have those rights? Maybe talk to a woman who lives in Saudi Arabia who is not legally allowed to drive a car let alone have a job or vote.
So are you a feminist?
Caitlin Moran suggests taking this simple test:
”Put your hands in your pants. (a) Do you have a vagina? And (b) Do you want to be in charge of it? If you said yes to both, then congratulations, you’re a (c) feminist.”
I’m a feminist. I’m the daughter of a feminist and the mother of one and I’m proud.
Jackie, you should be proud too. Proud of your success, proud of your family, grateful for the choices you have.
Because feminism played a crucial part in all of it.
Here’s a gallery of women who inspire us.
Mother Teresa - Founded the Missionaries of Charity in Calcutta and helped the poor and sick for 45 years.
.jpg "Nancy Wake was born in Sydney and served as a British agent during WW2. She became a leading figure in the maquis groups of the French Resistance and became one of the Allies' most decorated servicewomen of the war."){kind=small}
Comments
577 Comments so far
No I’m not a feminist because I hate this victim mentality. If you want a job that pays more money, go and get one. Nobody’s stopping you. Women have all the same opportunities as men these days. If you’re an individual who isn’t where you want to be, don’t blame society for this alleged inequality, blame yourself for not doing the work. Gender is irrelevant.
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Rubbish! Until there is equal opportunity with flexible work options and child care and women aren’t judged and objectified according to age and how attractive they are, there are still lots of barriers to women due to the construct of the environment. Its not an equal playing field yet. Yes it is better than it was for my mother (who had to resign when she got married GADS!) but don’t be fooled we are not there yet. That does not mean adopting a victim mentality it means we still need to change a few things so that we – and our children – get the best out of life. And let’s not forget, that the men who love us want this too.
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I’m sure there are plenty of men out there who are judged according to age and how attractive they are. This is what I mean; we are all individuals. I hate this attitude of blaming every issue an individual woman ever faces as some sort of slight against her gender. Where’s the evidence that workplaces are more flexible with work options for dads than they are for mums?
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My understanding of a feminist is someone who believes that women should be treated equally to men. Feminism is definitely not about rejecting femininity or men; it’s about being on the same level as men. In the early waves of feminism, if you were a feminist you were assumed to be a “lesbian”. However, in the contemporary world, this is no longer the case. I only really began to understand the concept of feminism in my first year criminology studies at university but I never thought it applied to me, or that I was a feminist. The term always seemed too extreme for my liking. However, while currently undertaking my second year of criminology, I’ve realised that I am, in fact, a feminist because I believe that women should have the same rights as men. Men should not have the upper hand or control. We do, indeed, have the right to the same freedoms. There’s nothing negative about being a feminist. I think that it shows pride in being a woman.
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Anon’s comments are spot on.Right up the very top.
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I am not a feminist. This is because of the notion of gender equality and ‘choice’.
It would be great to express here why I feel that in many ways the women’s movement and the ‘choice’ to work was one of the biggest con jobs ever done on our gender, but I am too fricking exhausted from having literally worked since 9am Sunday with 4 hours sleep.
I am a womanist. Hate me at your leisure, if you have any leisure time left when you’ve all finished work.
Reality is that nearly wept when Quentin Bryce came out last year and said she wanted to say to young women “you can have it all, just not at the same time.” I felt released on some level from the crazy expectations that Gen X women have inherited as a result of the feminist movement of the 50s, 60′s and 70′s. Women of our generation were released into the world to follow up on the hard work and sacrifice of our mothers and grandmothers, who fought for the choice to work and for equality. We were told “you can have it all, go out and have it all” and we did. Then we hit our mid 30′s, juggling family, children, relationships, professional careers. There is mounting evidence of Gen X women increasingly falling apart as a result.
‘m not interested in going back to the repression of past decades and I am the grateful recipient of all the work my grandmother, aunts and mother did to furnish me with the opportunity to be equal. To have more choice.
But what have we chosen?
It is hard to deny that women really have a ‘choice’ to work. Not working is the domain of very few mums that I know and those that don’t work struggle.
In fighting for the choice to work and equality with men that we have, unconsciously, stripped away the value of motherhood. We said ‘this is not valuable. Working in offices and mines and factories is valuable. Running happy, harmonious homes is not.” It takes a huge amount of skill to run a happy home. To be a fantastic mother. It’s not valued the same way as being a manager, a boss, a CEO and there is no point in suggesting that even women value the role of mother in the same way as they value their job roles, their ability to earn, their financial independence.
When I was at university, women who aspired to be stay at home mums were sneered at. That thinking is still quite prevalent. We’ve been sold this idea that we’re valuable only if we are equal to men.
It’s a con.
We’re valuable because we are different to men. That’s why I consider myself a womanist, and not a feminist. I don’t seek gender equality. I seek equality of opportunity.
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Spot on (I’ve been saying the same thing myself for many years), and god bless Quentin Bryce, for she is right.
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But you’re missing the point of feminism. You can chose to stay at home and be a mum. You have equality of opportunity… that IS feminism.
Feminism isn’t being told what to do or be, it is being able to chose what to be and be. Not being a feminist is being Ok with men to make your decisions for you.
May I suggest you read The Handmaids Tale for an idea on what feminism is not.
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I think you are spot on Hard Working Woman. Yes feminism has given us choices but along with those choices has come a lot of pressure to do and have it all. you are right, it’s a con.
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Yes, motherhood…how you feel can totally take you by surprise! When I didn’t go back to my uni job after 6 months maternity leave my mentor, the exec dean of the faculty looked at me like I was crazy wasting myself at home….He wanted me to do a Phd but I had this gorgeous little person and I just loved (love) her…for the moment this is where I want to put my energy. I may not be “important” in the eyes of the world anymore but I am doing something valuable – and I am still the same person!
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Hear! Hear! Thanks for this post.
I have been quite perplexed by Jackie O.
I try to like her but she really makes it difficult.
Caitlin Moran’s book is brilliant and I love her.
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She earns over a million dollars a year, maybe she doesn’t feel the need to be a feminist, she’s got whatever rights she wants.
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“And I’m so sick of the applause for mediocrity. Jackie O is on radio as a sidekick to a shock jock. It’s a third rate show where a woman is used to soften his edge and provide balance, or, if I’m being cynical, to keep the women tuned in while she does her ‘you can’t say that Kyle, that’s just awful’ routine.”
And there are many different types of feminists anyway some that say it’s not equality we’re after but instead understanding and acceptance of that difference. Patriarchy isn’t something easily left behind as it festers in the minds of both sexes and instead of putting our energies as women into arguing amongst ourselves about whether we call ourselves feminists or not we should be supporting each other to get our VOICE’s heard. I hope your article gets published Mia in this Sunday’s Age
This response to Mia’s article in part I applaud as I agree Jackie O is not someone I’d really look to as a role model either and this hype about “I’m not a feminist, but….” resonates the same for me as “I’m not a racist, but…” yet their ideologies seem to suggest they are what they dispute they’re not but don’t really care to identify themselves with the label. Feminism seems like a dirty word, being a racist is of course, and for some reason people think it’s exclusive and not for everyone. Feminism that is. I’ve heard feminist say that a man can’t be one cause he’s not a woman, what crap, as this just supports the same notion that our sexed body is the only thing that determines how we are seen and/or perceived. It gives strength to the notion that the dichotomy of the sexed body reigns supreme. And there is definitely not just a male and a female sexed body. Maybe I am digressing here a little but my point is that we need to stop labeling each other and continue to realise that throughout HIStory men have dominated and oppressed women, been in the “power” seat and had privileges that women haven’t and to continue to strive for a VOICE or recognition and understanding of our difference we must reclaim our rights through telling HERstory without the comparisons or measures made by men, without fear or stupid labels (like slut, whore, bitch, even the misuse of the word feminist- as this can conjure up that we have to be hairy lesbians and all of us are not) that attempt to diminish her, marginalise her, exclude her. I’m not saying we shouldn’t identify as feminists if we want to but for those who refuse to, we know you are anyway
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What’s with the HIStory and HERstory rubbish? Since when does the word history have its roots in gender?
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Please, please. Put in paragraphs.
Otherwise its just too many words and too hard to read.
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Feminism was always about the fight for equality in a world that valued men more than women. What does it become once equality is attained. It becomes an excuse for maintaining the victim myth in order to gain ever increasing advantage in society. So where is the end point I wonder.
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“A world that valued men more than women”?! What utter rubbish. Have you ever heard of “women and children first”? Is that why millions of men have died in wars, and doing other dangerous jobs, rather than women? Why is the hugely greater incidence of male suicide ignored? Why do men die significantly earlier than women?
The fact is that men are and always have been expendable.
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Please explain the practice of the suttee. Also could you please explain why there are disproportionately more male children/young men in china. How about selective abortion (of primarily female foetus’) also in china? Or closer to home, the fact that women were expected to leave work once they married less than 50 years ago, or couldn’t get a loan in their own name?
Don’t be so unbalanced.
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Geat piece Mia- when asked what feminism means to me I always say this “Feminism is the radical belief that women and men are equal.” Shocking concept, I know.
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I’m tired of the whole feminist argument of patriarchy and wage gaps. Men’s lives were far more disposable than ours back in the old days and the trade off was pretty rough not to mention most of them still couldn’t vote, but the could die in the millions in wars to protect women.
The wage gap is complete hocus. Many many in the same jobs get different pay, so why wouldn’t men and women? The variables these feminists lack are the one’s that tell the whole story.
Men are prepared to work later to appease a boss,
men are prepared to travel further to work, men are prepared to relocate temporarily for work,
men are prepared to do harder labour for work, men are prepared to work more 50 hour weeks,
men are prepared to work more 60 hour weeks,
men are prepared to work more 70 hour weeks and men are prepared to work more 80 hour weeks and most of these last three are completely dominated by men
men are more likely to receive danger pay because they die the most in employment and that’s not including military deaths which are even greater in numbers,
men are more likely to end up destitute from financial risk but also rich from said risks,
men are more likely to work in undesirable locations
men are more likely to work weekends
men pursue higher wages to attract a mate
men negotiate pay rates more frequently
men negotiate pay rates more efficiently
Statistics don’t show many of these factors when calculating pay differences, hence many men in the same jobs as other men are not paid the same rate according to the same statistical sources. Logic train???
Why wouldn’t any smart employee hire all women at 70% the rate and make a 30% profit over their competitors?
What are they too sexist to do that?
I am not going to be told I’m a victim, I haven’t been one and I’m happy without feminism trying to coax me into false victimhood with misleading premises. Not thanks call me a humanitarian.
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The word ‘Feminism’ for some men is loaded with such bad connotations that some women don’t want to be associated with it. These connotations from my point of view are as a result of Gender Feminists and Extremists who paint the movement with memes such as ‘All men are rapists’.
As a man the word Feminism has emotional meaning to me in a negative way. It is what it is. I think some women pick up on men feeling as I do and don’t want those negative emotions attached to them.
Personally I don’t think I will ever change my feelings about the word Feminism from negative to positive. I would prefer that women join men to start anew under a new banner of equalism. We’re a lot closer to reaching balance than in the 1960′s.
I’m not discounting the very real (and in my view necessary) gains that Feminism has wrought upon our society for women. I feel that in doing so it has also brought about changes that aren’t in mens’ interest. I’m talking about things such as the changes to the public education system which is to the detriment of young boys who learn quite differently to girls.
I’m not here to antagonise anyone. It’s just one guy’s opinion.
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I couldn’t agree more!! I feel like I have been banging this drum for ages, it baffles me when women begin sentences with ‘I’m not a feminist but…’… What are they afraid of? Have your opinion, let it be in support of yourself and women, you don’t need to qualify it with ‘I’m not a feminist but…’ for the comfort of others. Thanks so much for this post. I am upset by a lot of the comments here which seem to have missed the point entirely. I especially disagree with “Declaring ones self a feminist is to declare that there is only one gender for which you care when it comes to human rights, disadvantage and equality.”… What nonsense… Because caring about gender equality makes you unable to care about anything else? Insane.
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Declaring ones self a feminist is to declare that there is only one gender for which you care when it comes to human rights, disadvantage and equality. I challenge anyone to argue otherwise, when the very name itself only acknowledges one gender.
Luckily many women in australia now recognise this and are moving away from the term. The movement has clearly reached a use by date in australia with respect to our society (although there is clearly a battle to still be fought in some countries).
Time to put down the old womens study books Mia, and start fighting a fight against inequality and disadvantage wherever it may be found
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Wow, I don’t find Jackie O natural at all – I always feel like she is being fake in her voice and views. I wish she’d say what she really thinks ’cause at the moment all I hear are inane, obvious comments. I don’t think a woman who let’s a man walk all over her and is obssessed with appearance and mindless celebrity news is a good role model at all. Jackie O is free to be who she wants but I’m pretty sure she’s a lot smarter than she comes across, you don’t get where she is without it. I wish we could see the real Jackie O, I feel like she just plays it safe…
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Nancy Wake was actually born in Wellington,New Zealand AND then she moved to Sydney.She spent most of her adult life in France.
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Interesting post Mia. I would not consider myself a feminist at all. Why would I box or define who I am. I do not care if Men get paid more than me – why would I compare myself to them. What I get paid does not define the person that I am. It is a job, something I do. I have a family and work full-time, and that is what I want to do. It does not mean I am a feminist or not not a feminist.
It is society who has created this separatism in gender. It is posts like THIS that create more separateness. Why can’t we just ACCEPT who we are and be happy with it. Maybe, you need to accept Jacqui for who she is, she seems to be accepting of herself.
Maybe, we can do away with such a word, because it just seems to define what women have to be. Why does there have to be a definition??
Just accept the person for who they are, whether they be a mother, a father, a person who earns a lot of money, a person who enjoys what they do.. Just accept it.. whats that saying “such is life” maybe you just need to accept yourself for you who are, what ever that is.
Lucia
http://www.iamnotmyclothes.wordpress.com
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thank you Mia. I am so sick of feminism being a dirty word. I don’t think Jackie O is a role model, but I respect her right to make her choices and behave how she wants. Isn’t that what we all just ask for?
Please post most articles like this- young women think feminism is ugly and negative- how sad is that? And it has come about from the media and and women primarily.
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Interesting to note Mia Freedman calls Jackie O a role model for women. I cant quite figure out how a woman who allows a man to belittle another woman, or who lets a 14 year old girl talk about her sexual experience on radio be a role model for woman.
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This article infuriated me. Jackie O came across as vapid.
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I don’t know… you could have the same argument about Unionism.
“What? You don’t support unionism? What don’t you like? The two days off a week? Fair pay for a fair day’s work? If you’re middle class, you’re middle class because of unions. If you’re lower class, unions put a limit on how little you can be paid – and made sure it was enough to support your family. If you’re a wealthy business owner, don’t you like the fact that people can afford to buy your products?”
But if you pointed out the good that unions have done over the last 100 years, people would say “Sure, I appreciate that, but I’m not a unionist” and point towards the corruption, the intimidation, the righteousness of ‘unionists’. The actual face of unionism doesn’t fit with the historical values. The might argue that we now live in a post-union requiring society, as most of the issues championed by unions are now codified in law.
I see no problem with Jackie O being a beneficiary of feminism, but not identifying as a feminist. Parts of feminism turn her off the concept, so be it. If someone had pressed her ‘Why?’ maybe she would have said “They don’t represent my needs” – who knows, the journo didn’t ask.
I’ve been told men can’t be feminists so often online (and if I claim to be, I’m either lying or creepy), I’ve been told all men are rapists just waiting to strike, I fail to see how you blithely deny any negative aspect of feminism or an anti-men (yes, perhaps fringe) element within feminism.
It’s a PR issue. It’s real. Attacking Jackie O instead of attempting to address your PR issue is odd.
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That is a good analogy. In both cases, denying the principle shows ignorance. And apathy.
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I wonder if Jackie O could claim that she supports gender equality, but doesn’t like the feminist label?
(PS, thanks for treating my comment as an discussion, I’m not saying I support these stances, just offering a devil’s advocate view).
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Great point. A right wing friend of mine who worked in a highly unionised field, was offended by the suggestion that she should join the union too, until pay and working conditions negotiations were coming up and the non union members wouldnt be represented. Guess what? She joined the union.
Like the unions I still think the feminist tag has a negative connotations.
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I see your point – do you think more people would identify as feminist if there was a substaintial legislative push against women’s rights in Australia?
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I really dont know. I still think the people who are anti the feminist tag are simply still haunted by the ugly image that feminism had back in the old days. I dont think it goes any deeper than that.
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I think this is a great comment; a great analogy.
I don’t identify as a Feminist because I don’t feel comfortable with the connotations of the term AND I feel like women ARE equal & there is no longer a need for a broad cause to promote women’s rights. To corrupt your words: I believe we now live in a post-Feminism requiring society (I know many will argue with this point).
I appreciate all that women’s rights campaigners have done over the years for women, but do I need to join a cause now to enjoy these rights? IMO: no. Just as I do not need to declare myself a suffragette to enjoy the right to vote.
To go back to my point about whether there is still a need for a broad Feminist cause, and your point about Feminism having a PR issue, perhaps Feminists need to actually identify the specific areas where they believe women are discriminated & make them separate causes e.g. the Equal Pay Campaign.
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The wonderful Caitlin Moran says that her husband is one of the biggest feminists she knows. Of course men can be feminists. It means that they believe women should have the same rights as men.
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I agree and I would describe myself as a feminist. But some feminists disagree that I can be one. Look up “pro-feminism” to see new labels men take on because some disagree with the title being applicable to men.
It’s those discussions that generate the anti-men tag feminism has that whathernamethesinger mentions above.
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Hey Mia it is Gene here ,when we have TV shows like “please marry my boy”
and people watch them and enter them ,Dude Really it is time to give up.These style shows have put the cause back to the point where woman have to start again . Just saying
love you love your work
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Isn’t putting Jackie O on air demeaning to women and therefore a breach of broadcasting standards? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4PijjJNsLU
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Feminism is the radical notion that women are people too.
This concept is not restricted to only women. Men can and are feminists too.
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Can we all be masculinists as well, then?
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Sorry…I’m somewhat confused. So Jackie O (aka i thought she was dead or living in the abis of daytime pay tv) answers a question about feminism which Mia is now struggling to understand?
The woman (Jackie O) works and stands by Kyle Sandilands! Has done for years!…..If she actually cared about feminism do you really think she’d continue to do a show with him? She is getting paid to stay at a station, tow the line and at the end of the day…thats her choice. I don’t agree with that stance but at least she is honest. Mia, can we discuss Feminism on here without degrading it to ties with Z list Aussie radio jocks and perhaps instead focusing on the INTELLIGENT Female leaders within our national community both for and indifferent to the movement?
htt://www.louvschow.blogspot.com
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I cant help myself. Sorry for this ramble in advance.
Claire below states that – “Sorry if this offends but it’s purely a fact of physiology that males have more mathematically oriented brains, which explains why men get into physics-related jobs more often than women”
Its not a fact. There was time not that long ago in human history (only 100 years ago) that society as a whole believed as a fact that women didn’t have the metal capacity or intelligence to do anything a man could do.
And just recently, many studies have come out that show empirical evidence that girls are just as good at boys at maths at school. It’s the socialization of girls that makes the difference.
This article points out better than I can, the point that I have been trying to make –
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2073523/Girls-worse-boys-maths-Study-86-countries-shows-differences-caused-attitudes-women.html
Then you go on to state – ‘I’ve always wanted a duty of care type job but the idea of nursing wasn’t really challenging enough so I’m pursuing a career that’s just as rewarding but happens to pay a lot more. Being a female hasn’t prevented me from doing this”
You manage to insinuate that nursing isn’t as challenging as other careers (I have many girlfriends that are nurses that would beg to differ) whilst also gloating about simultaneously enjoying the spoils of feminism!
You then go on to say – “Women could easily go for engineering or mining if they wanted but it seems that they don’t want to”
I am positive the same would have been said about dentistry, medicine, science, etc not that long ago. When I was a child I never met a female doctor or dentist and now it seems to evened up 50/50 participation, which is great.
I happen to work in one of the high paying industries that is over 90% male. I work with these guys every day and I can tell you that a woman could easily do what they do, and just as well.
Its the socialization of females and the enforcement of gender stereotypes which you have just exhibited below that keep women from entering the industry I work in, not a lack of ability.
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“Sorry if this offends but it’s purely a fact of physiology that males have more mathematically oriented brains, which explains why men get into physics-related jobs more often than women”
W.T.F. Claire, don’t excuse your own inadequacies by your gender. And I’m *not* sorry if that offends.
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Ok this is feminism gone mad. We can’t be equal to males in matters of biology. Of course I can excuse inadequacies by gender. For example, I have inherently weaker arms than males due to my biology. It’s a fact that males on average have more muscle mass than females whether you like it or not. Males and females also have different brains and reproductive systems whether you like it or not.
This is from an article I went and found quite easily called “Sex differences in Math-Intensive Fields” published in 2010 by the journal “Current Directions in Psychological Science”
“Males also excel in the ability to mentally rotate figures in three-dimensional space. This is a robust finding, with dozens of replications; Wai, Lubinski, and Benbow (2009) have shown that spatial ability in conjunction with mathematical ability has consistently predicted performance in math-intensive fields for more than half a century. In large meta-analyses, the effect size for spatial ability is substantial, .50 to .75 for male superiority. Male 4- to 5-month-olds mentally rotate better than females the same age. Playing with LEGOs, erector sets, blocks, and dynamic videogames, as well as attending graphics classes, boosts females’ spatial skills, although not usually to males’ levels (e.g., Baenninger & Newcombe, 1995; Terlecki, Newcombe, & Little, 2007).
My notion that women don’t choose jobs in engineering and mining etc. has been completely disregarded but this quote is from the same study:
“In adolescent surveys, it is less common for girls to name math-intensive career aspira- tions. For example, one recent poll of 8- to 17-year-olds reported 24% of boys interested in engineering versus only 5% of girls; a survey of 13- to 17-year-olds reported 74% of boys interested in computer science versus only 32% of girls. Some have suggested that females are more interested in careers involving social relations, such as law and medicine, and males are more interested in fields involving systematizing inanimate objects. A recent meta-analysis revealed sex differ- ences in the people-versus-things dimension of educational/ vocational interests (Su, Rounds, & Armstrong, 2009). As we noted earlier, females with high math aptitude are less inter- ested in math-intensive careers than are comparable males (Lubinski & Benbow, 2006).”
Here is the conclusion of the study:
“Women choose at a young age not to pursue math-intensive careers; few adolescent girls express desires to be engineers or physicists, preferring instead to be medical doctors, veterinarians, biologists, psychologists, and lawyers. Females make this choice despite earning higher math and science grades than males throughout schooling. Although women earn a large portion of baccalaureate degrees in all fields of science, including mathematics, disproportionately fewer enter graduate school in these fields, preferring biology, social sciences, law, medicine, and the humanities—even when they possess math ability comparable to males. Of those who enter graduate school in math-intensive fields, more women than men drop out or change fields, and of those who complete doctorates, fewer women apply for tenure-track positions. Women drop out of scientific careers—especially math and physical sciences—after entering them as assistant professors at higher rates than men, and this remains true as women advance through the ranks. Although the reasons for this attrition are not well understood, it appears to have less to do with discrimination or ability than with fertility decisions and lifestyle choices, both freely made and constrained. The tenure structure in academe demands that women having children make their greatest intellectual contri- butions contemporaneously with their greatest physical and emotional achievements, a feat not expected of men. When women opt out of full-time careers to have and rear children, this is a choice—constrained by biology—that men are not required to make.”
As for my comment regarding nursing, I meant that it wasn’t mentally challenging enough for me. I don’t doubt for a second that nurses work hard, I have friends who are nurses and they work damn hard. Their degree of study was definitely easier than my degree of study though. Before you get in a huff, they even admit this.
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‘ “Sex differences in Math-Intensive Fields” published in 2010 by the journal “Current Directions in Psychological Science” ‘
That’s *psychological* not *physiological* – those are two entirely different fields, you know.
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Yes Lulu, psychology has nothing to do with physiology (!) The entire field of psychiatry is based on this relationship.
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Between twitter & mamamia I am so sick of reading about this topic. Please move on Mia.
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I was planning on going through and reading all the responses here but I seriously don’t have that much time, so if I repeat someone’s comment, I apologise…
I think people a reluctant to say they are a feminist as a lot of women have lost touch with what the term actually means. Being a feminist doesn’t mean you can’t be a housewife and it doesn’t mean you have to be a man hating career freak. There is such a gap in peoples perception of the word. For me, feminism means that we don’t have to do it all, we just have the choice.
Women have such a way to go in making men and women true equals in regard to many things (ie pay rates) but our fore mothers have fought for our right to have so much choice. But let’s all also remember that some of our wonderful choices we are able to have in our country have come from men fighting on the fronts.
We have so much opportunity here, I think its fantastic.
I choose to stay home with my son full time and let my husband provide for me. I don’t think this makes me a non-feminist, it just means I’m exercising my choice that we have inhereted from generations before.
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Perfectly said.
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“That would be ace if humans all had the same rights but we don’t.”
No, being a humanist is NOT naive. For exactly that sentence above.
Humanism is about equity for ALL people – not just one gender.
Of course I appreciate the rights we have now as women, but what about children, men, families, access to clean water, sanitation, basic healthcare for everyone?!
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”Put your hands in your pants. (a) Do you have a vagina? And (b) Do you want to be in charge of it? If you said yes to both, then congratulations, you’re a (c) feminist.”
As long as women don’t “take charge” too much and use those vagina’s to push babies out at home though Mia..right?…. a bit of curious inconsistency going on around here of late…
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Best. Comment. Ever.
Double standards.
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Dumbest.Comment.Ever. Feminism doesn’t give women the right to do whatever they want just and everyone else, including the life of their baby, be damned. Get a grip.
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“feminism doesn’t give women the right to do whatever they want”
dumbest.comment.EVER
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I don’t believe ANYONE has the right to do just whatever they please especially if it endangers the lives of others.
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I find it incredibly interesting that a post that has been shared over 600 times and has over 380 comments posted doesn’t have much debate going on it at all. Not many responses to other commenters.
Not many thumbs ups to peoples comments either, which is unusual.
Is this lack of engagement with each other on this issue an indictment just as to how passive and complacent we have become as women?
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Edit: I have just scrolled down and can see that since I look at the comments at lunchtime more people have come on and participated.
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I am a woman and a feminist because I live in one of the most “progressive” countries in the world for women’s rights and I still can’t walk the streets at night alone without fear of being raped and beaten. I still get my ass groped at nightclubs by random men, and men will still try to sleep with me when I am blind drunk. I am a feminist because my best friends beautiful mother came to coffee the other day with a black eye and a bruised arm and this is happening right in front of us, all the time in such a “progressive” place for women.
Until women and minorities are not groped, beaten, called “sluts”,”whores”, and “bitches” I will always be a feminist, and no oppressive person will ever change my mind on this because as a woman, I have experienced gender oppression directly, as have most of the women in my life around me.
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Sure, and men have never ever been called names by women, had their butts squeezed by drunk women in a pub or been the vitims of violence (actually, men are statistically the bigger victims of violence). So I guess you will all be declaring that you are masculinists as well huh.
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Ohhh anon. You know nothing.
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A large proportion of the offenders are also male.
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I don’t understand these kinds of statistics. Is it seriously being suggested that pay role offices check a female/male box and calculate employee wages based on that? Every employer I’ve ever worked for has had a list of pay rates published quite transparently and wherever you are in your length of employment and position, regardless of male or female, you get paid the same. Which companies have a spreadsheet further divided into male/female pay rates?
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The issue is in the private sector, where most salary packages are negotiated between employer and employee. This is where huge discrepancies can occur, because a lot of the boys clubs look after their own.
The other issue that faces women is the “i don’t deserve it” attitude so they don’t ask for what they deserve in wages and increases because either they cant deal with the potential conflict or on some level do not believe to be worthy enough.
Take the Jackie O example, here is another quote taken from the article referenced above –
” It was presenting the reality TV show Popstars in 2000, she says, that changed things. “That was a first because people didn’t ever consider radio people for TV,” she says. “I did the whole thing for free. I didn’t even know that you should get paid. That’s how naive I was when I first started in the industry. I just did it because, oh well, why not.”
Jackie didn’t think she should have gotten paid for appearing on TV. I doubt very much you would hear that coming out of Kyle’s mouth ever.
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This is ABS data – as in the Australian Bureau of Statistics, as in an entire government agency staffed by people who love nothing more than data analysis and standard deviations and whatnot, as in MASSIVE nerds. Are you really suggesting that their analysis of the pay rates of 9 million people is wrong? Or that they’re making it up?
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Well I don’t know anything about how the information was collected so I can’t really comment on their analysis. There’s no information here about variables or statistical significance etc so we just have to blindly trust what this article is saying.
I just don’t understand what these numbers are suggesting because, as I stated, all of my past employers (all private) have had very transparent pay rates and I’ve always been paid the same as males in my position. This article hasn’t commented on the fact that more women go for lower paying jobs such as teaching and nursing and perhaps this is why less women earn $2000 a week or more.
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Claire, the inherent reason that nursing and teaching are so badly paid is because they are predominantly jobs done by females. Not because the jobs themselves are less valuable to society.
That is the whole point of what we are trying to achieve here – for women to be valued just as highly in society as men are for their contribution.
Why is a guy crunching some numbers in finance more important and worth way more than a teacher educating the future generations?
Why do you think that the most male dominated jobs are also in the most highly paid sectors? Because men are making the rules and will contune to do so until women make a decision to get together and change it.
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Well, to be honest, if someone’s not happy about their pay as a teacher or a nurse, why are they getting themselves into those jobs? If they want the pay of a number-cruncher then get a job as one. It’s not gender-inequality if individuals are choosing to do specific jobs that they know ahead of time don’t pay very well. I knew that working as a scientist wouldn’t pay what I wanted so now I’m studying dentistry. Why would I become a scientist and then bitch about it not paying enough by virtue of my gender when I knew all along that it’s just that profession that pays poorly? I think women have plenty of opportunity to work their way up to high-paying jobs, as shown by female managers, doctors, CEOs etc. but perhaps they more often lack the aggressiveness required to do this due to pure physiology. By the way, more than 50% of my dentistry cohort is female so I reject the generalisation that highly paid sectors are male-dominated.
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Hi Claire,
Your comments worry me in so far that what you’re implying is that women teachers should jump ship to a better paid job instead of expecting pay commensurate with the importance of what they do.
Not sure if you have kids or not, or whether you ever intend to, but I don’t know one single parent who would feel comfortable with the idea that their kids’ education is left to those who are happy to settle with mediocre pay for a mediocre job.
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Claire, are you trying to tell me that the top, most highly paid industries in Australia such as – Mining, Oil, Gas, Engineering, Finance, Construction, IT and Telecommunications are NOT industries dominated and run by men?
You think dentistry is one of the most highly paid sectors? I mean it pays well don’t get me wrong, but I don’t know of many women, or men for that matter that made millions or billions of dollars from being a dentist.
You have to be seriously ignorant if you think that the top paying sectors are dominated by women (save Gina Rinehart who inherited her fortune) in the upper levels of management?
Good luck with your plan to chase a job purely for the money too, I’m sure it will bring you much happiness in life.
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Well, Just Saying, maybe I am ignorant to all of those fields, but are you suggesting that many women pursue jobs in mining, oil, gas etc? I would think the reason these fields are male dominated is because women don’t want those jobs. Universities are always desperate to get women into engineering, as evident from all the scholarships available specifically to women in engineering. Sorry if this offends but it’s purely a fact of physiology that males have more mathematically oriented brains, which explains why men get into physics-related jobs more often than women. I highly doubt there are lots of women going to work in the mines. By your logic, if lots of women did go to work in the mines, the pay rates would all of a sudden drop. Likewise, if lots of men went into teaching, all of the pay rates would suddenly sky-rocket. It just seems like you’re drawing a very long bow.
I’ve always wanted a duty of care type job but the idea of nursing wasn’t really challenging enough so I’m pursuing a career that’s just as rewarding but happens to pay a lot more. Being a female hasn’t prevented me from doing this.
rachael1260, I think that if women really want to be teachers because they love it they shouldn’t choose that profession, which is notorious for low pay rates, and then complain about the injustice done against them as women. They chose that field and male teachers get paid a crappy wage too. Why is it always coming down to the fact that they have a vagina rather than the fact that the profession pays poorly regardless?
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You’re absolutely right that men are paid a crappy salary in professions such as teaching and nursing also.
I understand you’ve opted for dentistry over nursing because it pays better and that by doing so , you perceive that teachers or nurses who choose their profession should just settle for what ‘they signed up for’. Although I can see your logic, I must say I disagree with it. I think we need bright, intelligent, talented and passionate people in these professions because these jobs are so very demanding and difficult. We’re all in trouble if our teachers and nurses are people who don’t have the highest of expectations for themselves and for others.
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rachael1260, this will seem contradictory but despite my previous posts, I totally agree with you. I really like the Denmark model of teachers being well paid and appreciated. I think these are separate issues though. Teachers and nurses are under-appreciated, regardless of gender, so why turn it into a feminist issue? I think my problem with feminists is when they turn non-gender equality issues into exactly that. The statistics in the article say that less women than men have incomes of $2000 a week but I think it’s because of the jobs they pursue and not because of the fact they’re female. Perhaps being female influences the kinds of jobs they pursue, which are largely low-paying, duty of care type jobs such as child-care etc. Women could easily go for engineering or mining if they wanted but it seems that they don’t want to. If people go into a profession that is notorious for being under-appreciated, I don’t think they should make the under-appreciation a gender equality issue just because there are lots of females in that profession. If anything, I think this is unfair to the men in that profession because it’s implying that the women deserve higher pay by virtue of being women rather than the profession as a whole deserving a higher pay because they’re excellent at it and provide a good service.
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WTF.
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Why has noone mentioned in this discussion that teaching performs a really valuable service to society in educating the adults of the future?
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Hi again, Claire,
In return, I think you’ve raised some valid points! I’ll also try to find the time to look at the links that “Katherine” posted below. Nice debating with you!
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A guy “crunching numbers” could be bringing in a whole lot of revenue… Hence he OR SHE is rewarded based on that performance.
And women can climb to the top and make just as much money as men if the playing field is equal: i.e. they put in the same hideously long hours that men do. Those successful men miss out on being fathers by the time they put into their jobs and those women who want to juggle motherhood and career generally miss out on the promotions and bonuses because they simply aren’t able to put in the work.
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What rubbish.
Teaching has only been a female dominated occupation in the last generation, when I was at primary school most teachers were men. These days men don’t go into teaching because they don’t want to be accused of being rock spiders if they inadvertently touch a child.
Nursing is female dominated, but they have a particularly weak union dominated by people who are more interested in getting “professional recognition” than getting pay rises and decent working conditions for their members. The union as also politically motivated and succumbs to the ALP agenda when the Labor Party is in power. If you don’t believe me, go and check, the nurses federation only ever takes industrial action when a coalition government is in power.
Finally, the gross number of teachers and nurses makes it very difficult for governments to find the money to pay them decently.
However, if the relevant unions actually cared about their members the rates of pay would be much higher. Gender has nothing to do with it.
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Your argument about the nurses union is not correct. Please see the Victorian nurses strike under the Labor Cain government as one example. You might also want to examine the disputes between NSW nurses and the Labor Wran governement.
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We took industrial action when the Beattie govt was in power. It dragged on for months. What was worse was that his wife (who is a nurse) supported his rise to power on the back of her nursing job.
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Hi there Claire
There are a number of reasons for the wage gap between men and women. One is that female dominated professions tend to be paid less and historically as professions became more female their wages tended to fall behind. Teaching for instance was a male dominated profession and comparatively well paid. As more women entered it gradually became less valued and less well paid.
Historically it wasn’t seen as important for women to have pay equality with men because men were regarded as breadwinners for their families while women were not although, of course, there have always been women whose wage supported their family.
Even today in female dominated professions like nursing there is a pay gap. Partly because more women work part-time but also because there are a disproportionate number of men promoted to higher paying management positions. There are many reasons for this – women tend to apply less for promotions, women often need to work around family commitments so may not be able to do as much overtime, men tend to stand out a bit more in a female dominated environment and that visibility can (not always) help them to be noticed for promotion, etc.
Here’s an interesting discussion about this: http://www.aapss.org/news/2010/06/01/paula-england-why-female-dominated-jobs-systematically-pay-les
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And a discussion of why women don’t just ask for more money:
http://scientopia.org/blogs/everydaybiology/2011/04/12/equal-pay-day-why-dont-women-just-ask-for-more/
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That is a good article, it certainly reflects my experience at one workplace and shows that no matter how good our labor laws they cannot entirely rectify this situation.
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Thanks Katherine!
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Yes, it’s absolute crap. It is illegal to pay women less for exactly the same work. The reason women earn less over a life time is because they take time out of the workforce to have children and look after them when they’re little. Men are much less likely to do this for the same amount of tme.
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While I agree with the substance of the article, I think advocating Caitlin Moran’s test for feminism is a mistake. Not all women have vaginas and not all those who have vaginas are women.
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Loving that someone else thought that when reading it! I like Caitlin Moran, but I think she definitely has some revision to do regarding gender vs sex!
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I’m happy to call myself a feminist but I understand why some people don’t. Leaving aside the issue of people who wrongly equate feminism with some strident version of hating men, I think there are also a lot of people who equate it with activism. I can see why someone who believes in women’s equality but doesn’t consider themselves to be an activist might not identify with the label.
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I have no idea about Jackie O, but I defer to Mia in knowing her and saying she really IS intelligent. From what I’ve heard the very few times I’ve heard her on the radio, and what I’ve heard about her programme, I wouldn’t want her as a role model to any young women I know, regardless of the monetary success she has — not that she’s asking to be one. I’m really OK with Jackie not being a feminist.
Re feminism, I remember the days when women’s salaries were NOT COUNTED if you wanted a home loan. Not counted. That was not that long ago. Also, women were regularly sacked when getting pregnant or told to leave work and that was OK, and jobs columns in the newspaper were designated as jobs for men or women. It’s not perfect now, far from it, but I do call myself a feminist because I remember those days.
And as a general comment, I don’t think anyone needs to call themselves a feminist, but I enjoy the privilege of being able to use the word, and I choose to. And that’s what feminism is to me, that choice.
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Once again we have a thinly veiled editorial designed to bring out opinion, nothing more. Designed to make people choose sides. If you’re not on the feminist side you are apparently, what, a failure of some kind?
What are you talking about?
No-one has to be anything that they don’t want to be.
Just because you are not a stated “feminist” doesn’t mean you’re anti-feminist. Doesn’t mean you don’t have rights or you have foresaken your mothers for fighting so hard for what they got.
You would make people think that men or society have barely got past the stone age.
Women like men exercise rights everyday and occasionally abuse their power, to the deficit of both parties – that is the major problem.
I have read books detailing great woman in history and all of them are admirable. I do think that a lot of the woman in the gallery have overcome lots of barriers deliberately set up to stop women from excelling. But, that is also been a talent of woman to use their emotional IQ to navigate and get past that.
To tell you the truth Mia, I think you are pretty divisive. Most people can see through what you are writing and recognise it as a scrappy editorial.
I do like the site, but I refuse to put up with bullshit. If your job is to continue to hackaway on this subject, good luck to you, but don’t expect people to take it as seriously as you would have hoped.
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I guess the issue is that lots of us have become lazy about ‘feminism’. We think it’s an antiquated, irrelevant term that society has outgrown. But feminism is a movement that we need to hold on to. It looks different to what it did in the 60s and 70s but it should still hold salience for us.
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Feminism = Equality.
If you believe in gender equality you are a feminist.
Endy story.
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I think it’s very helpful when men come out and identify as feminists. Wish there was more of it.
Wonder if Tony Abbott would call himself a feminist?
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Funny you should suggest this kareateight I was just thinking that my dad is probably the one who taught me the most about being a feminist. You could probably define me as a feminist then because of my strong sense of social justice (is that the same as declaring yourself a humanist Mia?)
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Sure, because the term is so inclusive of everyone, which is what equality is all about. Are you just singing for your supper Sam, or do you seriously believe that.
So I guess by extention all women should come out and eagerly pronounce themselves masculinists. Sure.
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Why can’t I just say that I believe in equality? Do you call yourself a masculinist?
I personally hope that everyone has equality and freedom – do I have to label this belief as “feminism”?
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Thank you Mia for constantly putting this issue at the forefront of public discussion and consciousness. You knew I would bite at this.
The main media outlets wont put womens rights on their main agenda (I suppose they wouldn’t want to upset their nice little apple cart) so its encouraging that Mamamia gives a shit about wanting to change things for the better for 51% of the population and regularly features it on this website.
Even in progressive developed nations we still have a long way to go for equality between the sexes.
Until women occupy the corridors of power as much as men occupy the realm of child rearing, both with equal decision making power and influence – women will not be equal to men due to the forces of capitalism.
Capitalism is a system devised by and for men and it does not place much financial value on giving birth to and raising children so women by default will be not treated as high value as a man that can make lots of money. Money equals control and power.
Hence the need for sustained campaigning for the rights and increased opportunities for women who still get systematically discriminated against due to an archaic and outdated system.
So all the “equalists” and “humanists” out there, feminism is one and the same. In order to be equal, women need to be considered equal to men.
That is my definition of feminism. Women equal to men.
As far as I am concerned, the caricature of “”man-hating, bra burning, angry, hairy lesbian” or a variation of it is a concoction made up my mainstream media to divide and conquer women so we all don’t get together and demand change and to be treated equally.
Just imagine if we all got together and worked on one issue – say we demanded equal pay for equal work? Oh shit, then well the world would spin out of control on its axis.
And I hate that “feminism” is defined by the extreme. Thank you to Mia and Caitlan for pulling back the fulcrum more to the middle, reclaiming and normalizing it again.
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I always find it baffling when the media tells us our role models are…… the media!
So, she doesn’t identify with the word / label / term / movement “feminist’?
She.is.just.a.person.
There will be never ending conversations with my children. And almost as much as feminism, several of them will be about the media.
This will include the idea that being employed by (or appearing in) some form of media, does not instantly make you anybody’s “role model’.
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Bam! Brilliant! You got it in one!
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Two defining moments for this feminist.
I remember being 18 sitting on a tram, caught up in a women’s rights march down Swanston Street. It seemed to me that at that time to shave your underarms not to mention legs, wash your hair and wear make-up somehow made you a traitor to the sisterhood, I thought hold on – being equal does NOT mean being the SAME.
After 25 years and balancing a senior exec role with motherhood and family I happened to spend time in the company of two women who had basically abrogated responsibility for themselves to their husbands, financially and intellectually. It made me think, if as a responsible adult, living in a society where I have freedom of choice and I choose NOT to take responsability for myself, then can I really demand equality?
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ah, but when is free choice really free choice? Do you think those women made that choice in a vacuum?
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Mia you need to add yourself to that gallery of impressive woman above
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I, for one, second that! Well said
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Why do we have to call it feminism, why can’t we just call it equality?
Jackie was cornered into a question that if she answered would open up a whole can of worms with the Kyle stuff. I think her problem was she wasn’t eloquent enough to answer it properly and she was just deflecting the issues. I in no way condone her behaviour on radio and I despise Kyle, possibly Mia just used it to bring up the issues of inequality. I personally think you give her too much credit for intelligence Mia!
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This. Why am I being naive for saying humanist and desiring that all people are equal, not just women with men?
Maybe it’s just me, but I’m caught up in a sport where women have the upper hand and have a tendency of treating men as though they are encroaching on “their” turf. Having heard a self described feminist say “no, it’s OUR sport, they have enough of their own” I lost a bit of respect for that person and their ideals.
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I wouldn’t like to put into the same boat as Germanine Greer so if Jackie doesn’t want to describe herself as feminist then all the power to her. You just misinterpreted what she said or rather what she didn’t say to mean that she was anti – women. Feminism is about choice and if her choice is not to use that term, then thats her decision and i don’t think its anybody’s responsibility to push the term onto anybody or decide for her.
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She said “I don’t know” quite a bit in that first quote, didn’t she? Seems quite telling to me.
Perhaps someone can send this on to Jackie-O:
Any woman who says she’s not a feminist, but doesn’t want to be treated like a piece of bird poo on the windscreen of life, has just got her terminology wrong.
One from my uni days, many moons ago, which still needs to be used. Sad.
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Jane- they rate 9 percent and dropped again today – 91 percent don’t listen.
They are number 3 in Sydney behind Jones and the ABC
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I know I am lucky to be born at a time when it wasn’t even an option for me to stay home while my brother went to school – that happened to my grandma. I know I am lucky to have a great career and have options galore. I know I owe all that I am to brave women who fought for women to be seen as equal to men. I agree with many of the things in this article, especially the liberation of women.
However.
The reality is you don’t have to have a vagina to believe in women’s rights. There are pro-feminist men. It doesn’t have to be an exclusive club based on your gender. Isn’t that the point? We’re protesting exclusion, but we’re saying to be a feminist having a vagina is step one? That leaves out half the population.
Women have a very long way to go to achieve equality but putting men in one corner and us in another isn’t doing us any favours. The reality is that institutions are mainly controlled by men, and if we want to make gains we need to get them on our side. Antagonising them is not the answer. We need to show them that it’s not about making them less of a person, it’s about recognising that we’re people too. The same kind as they are, with the same hopes, wants and needs.
I believe women should be entitled to the same rights as men. That doesn’t mean men should get less rights, just that we should get as much as they do.
Again I am not disagreeing with the fact that women are devalued or that we should continue what the feminist movement started. I disagree with the way we frame our arguments and the way we present ourselves. It’s not a contest! We’re not better! We’re the same and all we want is for you to see that, recognise it as fact and translate that recognition into equal pay, equal rights, equal everything.
And – what about the LBGT community? Don’t they deserve the same rights, same everything too? Don’t they deserve the right to be who they want to be, live however they choose, and love the person who makes them happy regardless of sex? Ladies, we are not the only ones with problems.
I believe in equality.
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Why this duo was ever such a ratings winner is beyond me… Jackie O’s silent submission (ok, sometimes she was giggly) to his ugly diatribes about anyone and everyone always screamed that birds of a feather DO flock together – she negatively reinforces and enables him all the way, passively rewarding the behaviour with her silent support.
In today’s Herald:
http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/watchdog-finds-kyle-sandilands-guilty-of-breaching-decency-standards-20120327-1vvax.html
Water constantly finds it’s own level – just tune out from Kyle and Jackie O’s feedloop of garbage and this station (and its advertisers) will get the gist that healthy female role models are worth having over this societal ‘benchmark’.
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No self-respecting feminist would continue to work with Kyle Sandilands when he repeatedly degrades and demeans and verbally abuses women without learning from or altering his behaviour. So no, Jackie O is not a feminist. No surprise there.
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yes to that
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Jackie O a role model for women ? Are you kidding Mia ? A woman who giggles at a 14 year old child being interviewed about their sexual experience on radio.
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Mia you kind of lost me when you claimed Jackie was a role model for many women and ‘very smart’. I don’t know if either are indeed true – she’s certainly not the role model I’d choose for my daughters, but I would be happy if you could provide some empirical evidence of her ‘smartness’. You clearly know her better than I do but from the outside her career appears to have been devoted to being the simpering sidekick to a couple of alpha male radio hosts. She kind of reminds me of those girls at school who were too afraid to stand up to the oxygen-hogging boys who didn’t want to learn and didn’t want anyone else to either. Or the girls who stood by one day while some boys stole my friend’s purse and threw out her tampons all over the yard. Passive. Afraid to be confrontational.
To continue the playground analogy, we were told at school that you can tell a lot about a person (and their values) by the company they choose to keep. Kyle and Jackie are now inextricably linked, and given that these days everyone seems to have a ‘brand’, you would think that Jackie’s brand is forever tarnished by her association with Kyle.
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Bravo, deborah. My thoughts exactly.
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