Dear Jackie O and Every Other Woman Who Doesn’t Consider Herself A Feminist,
Really? I mean REALLY? I was so confused when I read the following quote from you yesterday:
Jackie O
Do you consider yourself a feminist?
“No,” she says, with a shy smile.
“Why?” I cry in disappointed tones.
“You’re a woman.”
“I know,” she says, laughing. “I know. I do feel like I have achieved so much, in radio especially. But I’ve never considered myself a feminist. I’m just, you know, I’m doing what I love. I’m really proud of how far I’ve come. But … you know.”
Here’s Mia and Lisa Wilkinson talking to Karl Stefanovic about Jackie O’s feminist quote on The Today Show:
The thing is Jackie -I’ve known you a long time and I like you a lot. You are a force in radio, a role model for many women and your success is no accident. You’ve worked hard and you’re talented.
In many ways, the power you have in your field has paved the way for many other women like you to be given a chance in a hugely competitive industry that’s mostly dominated by men.
So I’m confused by your insistence that you’re not a feminist.
What do you think feminism is? Or rather, why are you so keen to distance yourself from it?
As self-described “strident feminist” and my hero Caitlin Moran says in her book How to be a Woman:
Caitlin Moran
“We need to reclaim the word ‘feminism’. We need the word ‘feminism’ back real bad.
When statistics come in saying that only 29% of American women would describe themselves as feminist – and only 42% of British women – I used to think, What do you think feminism IS, ladies? What part of ‘liberation for women’ is not for you? Is it freedom to vote? The right not to be owned by the man you marry? The campaign for equal pay? ‘Vogue’ by Madonna? Jeans? Did all that good shit GET ON YOUR NERVES? Or were you just DRUNK AT THE TIME OF THE SURVEY?”
There seem to be a lot of women who are confused about the meaning of feminism. Lady Gaga in 2009 said: “I’m not a feminist. I hail men. I love men.”
HUH? Who said anything about NOT loving men? Where does that even come from? Since when did feminism have anything to do with rejecting men or femininity?
Equally frustrating is the “I’m not a feminist, but…” brigade.
“These days, well-intentioned suggestions of equality often follow in the footsteps of the phrase “I’m not a feminist, but…”, as if feminism is a disease we want to ensure everyone we don’t have before proceeding. As if feminism and being a feminist is something to be embarrassed about.”
“Most of us like being women but the strife between wanting to embrace both femininity and feminism seems difficult at times. Questions like “I like wearing make-up, so am I really a feminist?”, “I’m really into fashion, so am I really a feminist?”, “I like to cook for my husband, so am I really a feminist?” or “I want to stay home with my children instead of work, so am I really a feminist?” pop up, and the answer is always yes.
Feminism is anything but the rejection of femininity. It is about embracing that femininity and demanding that the world embrace it the way they have embraced masculinity for most of our history. It is about ensuring that women always have both a choice and a voice. It is about not being devalued because we happen to be women.”
Yep, and spare me the ‘humanist’ label because it’s naive and misses the point. In a recent interview about her role in the movie I Don’t Know How She Does It, a movie that would have been impossible without feminism, Sarah Jessica Parker was at pains to point out: ”I took a page from [the playwright] Wendy Wasserstein’s book. She said, ‘I’m not a feminist, I’m a humanist.”’
That would be ace if humans all had the same rights but we don’t. Women are STILL not paid the same amount as men for doing the same job. And any half-decent bloke would be as appalled by that as women should be.
From the Herald Sun:
Australian Bureau of Statistics studies of Australia’s almost nine million employees have found only 151,000 were women earning $2000 a week or more, compared with 570,400 men.
The ABS reports looked at employee earnings and also analysed information by gender. In every wage category, on average, women earn less than men from the time they start work through to retirement.
Keelia Fitzpatrick, Youth Officer with the Victorian Trades Hall Council, said for young women who finished university, the gender pay gap was present from day one of their careers. “Figures show that across industries female graduates will earn on average $2000 less per year than their male counterparts,” Ms Fitzpatrick said. “This debunks the myth that the gender pay gap can be explained by family commitments.”
Girlfriends, come on. Feminism is simply about believing women should have equality and the right to make decisions about our own lives. Whether to work, who to marry, what jobs to do, whether to have children, when to have them, how many, who to vote for, what to wear…….the list goes on.
You want to give those choices back? You want men to make the decisions about your lives? About your body? Well, sure. Then perhaps you’re not a feminist.
But I don’t know ANY woman who believes she’s not worthy of the same rights as men, that she should earn the same money for doing the same job.
You want to know what it’s not like to have those rights? Maybe talk to a woman who lives in Saudi Arabia who is not legally allowed to drive a car let alone have a job or vote.
So are you a feminist?
Caitlin Moran suggests taking this simple test:
”Put your hands in your pants. (a) Do you have a vagina? And (b) Do you want to be in charge of it? If you said yes to both, then congratulations, you’re a (c) feminist.”
I’m a feminist. I’m the daughter of a feminist and the mother of one and I’m proud.
Jackie, you should be proud too. Proud of your success, proud of your family, grateful for the choices you have.
Because feminism played a crucial part in all of it.
Here’s a gallery of women who inspire us.
Mother Teresa - Founded the Missionaries of Charity in Calcutta and helped the poor and sick for 45 years.
.jpg "Nancy Wake was born in Sydney and served as a British agent during WW2. She became a leading figure in the maquis groups of the French Resistance and became one of the Allies' most decorated servicewomen of the war."){kind=small}
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I just watched that interview… Karl is a jerk. Why ask someone their view if you don’t want to listen?
I found some of his comments very sexist, I’m surprised Lisa and Mia weren’t more offended..
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I think you will find that Jackie O is stating that she does not want to be known as a liar and a hypocrite as well as a female chauvinist pig.
The facts are that not one negative claim against men ever made by any feminist any where at any time is true.
A feminist in India says that abortion is MURDER. But she says that because more females are aborted than males. But when a male is aborted it’s just a nothing. A simple collection of cells.
“I’m not suggesting that we don’t have work to do here in Australia; pay inequality is still an issue; we have not eradicated domestic violence; and some women in our society still don’t experience a true sense of freedom. But these are all problems that we see magnified in the developing world.”
How is pay an issue? This is either plain stupid or deliberately deceptive. The law states that anyone and everyone gets the same pay for the same WORK. What you are lamenting is the Marxist Communist Social Failure which said everyone gets the same pay. So no one wanted to do the awful jobs or the dangerous jobs. Why should they? What economic pygmies don’t realise is that Marxist Communism rewards the worst worker (i.e. females) because they get the same pay as the best worker. Whereas Capitalism rewards the hard workers. How many times have we heard the story of an immigrant man landing on Australian shores only to die of old age as a millionaire. There is nothing to stop females doing the same thing. But why should they? All they have to do is to find a wealthier guy than them and bludge off him. Who are these females who don’t experience a true sense of freedom? Are men in the same boat?
We also know that only 27.4 % of females work full time. The Women’s Weekly published an article in early ’09 which showed the corporate ambition of 75% of working mothers was to quit work and bludge of their child’s father. We know females use education not to work in the community but to get a better paying husband. We know that after 7 years of gaining a degree 50% of females will not be employed using their degree. After 10 years 66% are dependent on a man for survival like a child. We know the average working life of a female GP is 10 years. A Man – 40 years. As you, yourself said, “but it’s the same; rich, powerful guy plucks sweet innocent girl out of obscurity and they fall madly in love. That’s why it feels so familiar. Most of us have this narrative programmed into our DNA.” Go for the money and power and bludge off a bloke..
You do NOT want Domestic Violence eliminated. You only want violence against females eliminated. Violence against men is AOK in your feminist book. That’s what Jackie O is getting at. She believes men and females should be treated equally. You don’t even though you say the same thing but your actions show you are a female chauvinist pig by your own definition and necessarily a liar and hypocrite also by definition.
How many young girls did you drive to eating disorders and death because you put photoshopped unattainable body images in Cosmopolitan? Or do you say that, as editor, you had no choice in what appeared in the magazine?
“That would be ace if humans all had the same rights but we don’t. Women are STILL not paid the same amount as men for doing the same job. And any half-decent bloke would be as appalled by that as women should be.” Why? Females demand to be treated equally. The law is that anybody, irrespective of gender, race, religion, etc etc., is paid equal money for equal WORK. Everyone except feminists agree with it. You get equal pay if you do the same amount of work not just because you have the same job. For example, say there are 3 offices. The one on the left is occupied by a male solicitor, the one in the middle is occupied by a female solicitor, and the one on the right is another female solicitor. Now imagine that the man brings in $500,000 of fees a year whereas the females bring in nothing because they are too busy emailing each other on how many men they have on the go. Plus they are more interested in what they look like than what they achieve. Should the females get equal pay? They all have the same job. Everyone except feminists says no. Why don’t you, as a feminist so fraught with equality, agree too?
Yep, and spare me the ‘humanist’ label because it’s naive and misses the point. In a recent interview about her role in the movie I Don’t Know How She Does It, a movie that would have been impossible without feminism, Sarah Jessica Parker was at pains to point out: ”I took a page from [the playwright] Wendy Wasserstein’s book. She said, ‘I’m not a feminist, I’m a humanist.”’ Why is it naïve and what point is missed in being a humanist? Why would the movie have been impossible without feminism?
“Australian Bureau of Statistics studies of Australia’s almost nine million employees have found only 151,000 were women earning $2000 a week or more, compared with 570,400 men.” What does that tell you? That men work harder than females and make more sacrifices and take more risks?
“Girlfriends, come on. Feminism is simply about believing women should have equality and the right to make decisions about our own lives. Whether to work, who to marry, what jobs to do, whether to have children, when to have them, how many, who to vote for, what to wear…….the list goes on.” The first statement is clearly psychosis. What do you think of the female organisation called the Society for Cutting Up Men – SCUM. That’s what you believe in, not equality like Jackie O. Tell me, noting you demand that females are treated equally, do men get a choice not to work? Feminists had absolutely no input whatsoever into females getting the vote. What you refuse to acknowledge is that men didn’t have the vote either. Only land holders got to vote. But, at the instant of Federation, everyone got the vote no matter who you were or where you were from. But your psychosis prevents you from seeking the truth. Feminist lies are much more soothing for you. I remember Virginia Trioli lamenting that 70% of females in Australia are so stupid they are not feminists. Can’t they SEE. Yes they can. They can see the truth which feminists can’t. Since the truth does not support your psychosis you make up lies to vilify and denigrate men.
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Does Jackie not realize that without feminism, she might not even have a job?
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Oh Mia- really???? “You are a force in radio, a role model for many women and your success is no accident. You’ve worked hard and you’re talented.” Mia -Jackie O is not a role model or at all talented.
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I am so appalled by the ignorance of our society and in particular with Karl Stefonovic who says he is all about equality for women but he talks over and patronises Mia and Lisa during their “conversation” about feminism. People obviously dont understand what feminism is all about. When women have to have a law to protect them and make them equal there is something hideously wrong! If women did not stand up and and fight no woman would have the right to choose, to vote,be free, have financial independence, not be treated like chattel or be beaten and raped by their husbands. EVERY single day i speak to women who are beaten and raped by their partners because of the gender inequality and entitlement that a lot of men still think it is their right to treat women with violence and disrespect and then the patriarchal court system that hands down the sentencing. There still is gender inequality in the workplace people wake the F**K up and realise that without the amazing strong courageous women who fought and are STILL fighting for us then us women would still be treated like 2nd class citizens!!!! I AM A FEMINIST and PROUD of it! A fabulously strong, sexy woman who has the freedom to choose!
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So Mia, what is it exactly that you did before you becme a “social commentator?
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Mia, show me where a woman is not paid the same as a man for the same job.
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Read the post! It’s in there.
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Good topic. I realised, since reading your article, that I too was confused by what the term “feminist” means. Thinking about it, I would have describe myself as a “I’m not a feminist but…” woman. The reason is simply good ol’ fashioned ignorance. You see, I absolutely believe in women’s rights – voting, equality and all that jazz as well as embracing femininity. However, I think the stereotype out there is that the two don’t go hand in hand. Some people think if you are a feminist, you are all about women’s success to the point that it should over power men’s because we are just as capable, if not more. In other words, we don’t need a man and the route to empowerment is through independence. Again, that is a stereotype but perhaps it’s that perceived aggressive imagery that frightens people from waving the “F” flag. As a side note I’ve often wondered if feminism saw the death of chivalry, but that’s another story for another time… I’m glad you’ve raised this discussion, it’s actually embarrassing how little women seem to know about ourselves.
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Karl Stevanovic’s naive twitter confirms for me that he is an utter mental midget. Give me Koshie any day.
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Jackie O isn’t a feminist…you only have to watch the vision of her laughing when her idiot sidekick states on air that a female journalist is ‘a fat thing that needs to keep her mouth shut’ because she dared to say that their crap TV special was…well crap!
I hate labels…but I’d rather be a humanist myself! I prefer to strive (in my own small way) for inclusion and equality…black, white, old, young, male, female, straight, gay – and not isolate one group for specific attention.
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Mia what outraged me the most was the way Karl Stevanovic behaved on Today. I think it’s fine to play a bit of devil’s advocate but when he called you and Lisa Wilkinson “cranky” and that you two were “too cranky to talk with”, it really was telling of the problematic attitudes that people still have towards women.
There are still so many expectations with how women should behave and how they present themselves and it was really sad for me to see that it is being played out on tv. Just because women are opinionated doesn’t mean they should be subjected to attack and comments on women stereotypes.
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I disagree. I am sure Carl would say a bloke is cranky if talking passionately about something he felt differently about.
This is exactly what annoys me about feminism, taking everyday things that happen or that people say, and if it is against a woman, turning them into proof of some grand sexist conspiracy against women. Your comment is the perfect example of the victim mentality that comes with feminism that annoys me so much.
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I’m afraid I cannot see the argument here. Jackie O is NOT a feminist. Just because she is living a lucky life where she has choice and a voice, it does not mean she understands the implications of that, that she has a strong opinion on women’s issues, that she is vocal about those opinions or that she has any passion for the cause. Argue that she should all you like, but clearly she doesn’t.
And her path was not paved by feminists, it was paved by her ex-husband. She’d still be a “phone girl” if it weren’t for Ugly Phil insisting she co-host with him (probably because she pushed him to). And they both did it for the money, not because either cared about the cause. She is the product of a free ride she scored by bedding a money hungry man 15 years her senior. Her career path has little to do with feminism in my opinion.
I’m all for bright, passionate women standing up and say they are feminists. But I just can’t see why someone who is all for freedom of choice is surprised and basically attacking someone for not identifying as a feminist, especially when they are obviously not a feminist. Being a feminist is about having a strong belief system around equal rights for women, and just as not everybody has a strong political persuasion that they are prepared to label and identify themselves with, not everyone has a strong enough stance about feminist issues either. It is not black and white.
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Jackie isn’t a feminist. She is a male wanna be. And the men will keep her around while she acts like a bimbo for them. After that, she will be declared a no-body. Actually, most of the Australian population already consider her to be a no-body…..
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I agree. She is a male groupie, not a feminist. There is a big difference.
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I love Karl.
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There is still a HUGE amount of work for feminists to do in this country ( let alone the world). The election of a female Prime Minister has exposed a great gaping misogynistic sore in Australian society, and the likes of Alan Jones, Ray Hadley, Kyle Sandilands and Jackie O (the classic bystander bully) are the bacteria that create the pus in that wound.
Those feminists ( feminists = a fair go for women) who recognise how far women have come, and how far they still have to go are rightly appalled at Jackie O’s comments; at Germaine falling off her pedestal to have a dig at the PM’s wardrobe (as did Virginia Trioli); at NRL footballers maintaining high profile positions despite being involved in pack rapes and assaults; at Karl Stevanovic making supercilious comments during what should have been a serious discussion…. The list goes on, and all contribute to that festering sore.
If feminists don’t speak up, if they don’t maintain the rage, what sort of Mad Men society will we end up with?
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Absolutely disagree. As a woman who’s the same age as Ms Gillard I have never sensed anything remotely bordering on sexism in the political debate. If anything, it is women of my vintage who are judging her harshly because she’s a woman. She is either so out of touch with reality, determined to push through an agenda against the wishes of the electorate or she is a puppet for powerful men. Whatever the reason, it makes me sick to see a grown woman behave as she does.
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You are a perfect advertisement against feminism, demonstrating the harm caused when the rightful rage from 30 years ago is transported into modern day Australia, where the fight has already been fought and won. Time to all live together.
‘Mad Men Society’- purlease – god help the males in your life, if there are any.
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Julia Gillard was not “elected” she got the same amount of votes as Tony Abbott. And I believe the only reason she got that many votes was because of so called “feminist” voting for her based purely on the fact that she is a women. That is not cause for celebration if anything it is a step backwards for the feminist movement
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I’d just like to add that in my opinion the term humanist is actually sexist; feminism is about equality, not taking anything away from men but guaranteeing that as humans nobody is getting a head start just because of their gender. Feminism isn’t just about white women, feminism is about all people of all (not both) genders across the planet, and some would argue animalkind as well. And this is where it gets sexist: nobody whines about it being mankind, do they? The same people who feel more “comfortable” calling feminism humanism don’t go around calling it “humankind”. The reason for this is that feminism still gets a bad rap, despite comments that “feminism is silly because all men and women know equality is important” feminists are still made to endure all sorts of abuse from a lot of directions for speaking up for it. The reason women call themselves humanists is because there’s no discomfort or work involved in that. Nobody’s going to call you a lesbian or ask you if you shave your armpits or ask you if you hate men if you call your belief in equality for women “humanism” instead of “feminism”.
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Humanist, a term that is all inclusive, is sexist. Right. I need to have a lay down I think, the world is just getting too weird.
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That’s my problem with it right there; that even though it means the exact same thing, you and others see humanism as all-inclusive and feminism as not. People are uncomfortable with the term “feminism” because it’s a female-oriented word, where in plenty of cases where a male-oriented word stands for both sexes (i.e. “mankind”, “since the dawn of man” – referring to women as well; “feminism” meaning equal rights for all humans, referring to men as well) nobody, including me, minds at all – it’s just a blanket term for something. By arguing that we need to call feminism “humanism”, it’s basically saying, “we need a new term for the exact same thing because feminism has icky “fem” all up in it! Ew!” It’s a fear of the connotations that “feminism” has invoked in the past and continues to invoke today: man-hating women burning their bras. By feeding into that and calling yourself something else to distance yourself from those connotations is to buy into those sexist connotations and side-step from all the important things feminism has achieved and is yet to – for women AND for men.
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sure…I think you over think this.
And even the word ‘woman’ has ‘man’ in it, what do you suppose we do about that.
I am sorry, but a term that is all about fightingfor injustice that is gender specific is just wrong. period.
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Somewhere that women are being denigrated and abused in much too large numbers is Family Law. Feminist or not, mamamia and anyone else who is interested in women’s issues should be doing something about these injustices NOW! If you’re interested we can show you many cases where women have been destroyed and their children severely damaged by court decisions portraying them as delusional and mad. Why? because they were trying to protect their kids from abuse and violence. The courts who should protect the vulnerable awarded these kids to the abusers. You wouldn’t read about it – or believe it! But we can show you it’s true. http://www.justiceforchildrenaustralia.org
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Karl ” the work is already done”….. Maybe (to an extent only) in our smug western bubble. The majority of women live in third world countries where the idea of equality for women barely has a voice. Feminism has hardly “finished the job”. It’s like saying ” oh the US has a black president – there must be no more racism in the world”.
Mia I liked your comment that you didn’t know why Jackie O disowned the movement that gave her her opportunities.
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I believe Karl was talking about the feminist movement in Australia not on an international level. In fact I think he was probably getting at the the very same point as you Kylie; that in the “smug western bubble” there has been so much progress and if you compare that with the third world & the middle east women in Australia really don’t have much to complain about.
Maybe instead of complaining about how the word feminism has been tainted in developed western countries Mia and Lisa Wilkinson she get off their high horse and spread the word to women who have never heard it before
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Some women arent interested in being forced into your pile because you think they should be there. Perhaps Jackie O is as sick of hearing you all carry on complaining as I am.
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Who is forcing who to do what?
It’s just noting a discrepancy between not supporting a movement’s values while living those values yourself. It doesn’t make sense.
Oh, and the idea that every minority who tries to speak up is ‘complaining’ is kind of why the world is arse backwards. For f**k’s sake.
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How embarrassing! I just watched the video. What the hell, Karl Stefanovich?!?!? Pretty boy with no substance! Kind’a the male equivalent of Jackie O.
I know there are “dinner party” etiquette rules at play here on Mamamia but I dare to break them now. And if this is deleted by Mamamia, I understand but I must state that Karl Stefanovich came across as a bozo and a buffoon.
“Jackie O created her opportunities for herself”… How? In a vacuum?
Thanks for posting this video and reminding me why I don’t watch commercial television, especially the talk shows.
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Karl went into that conversation with such a bad attitude he has really made a fool of himself. Well done Lisa and especially yourself Mia for being prime examples of modern feminism – something that includes being an absolute lady, which is how you handled this situation.
I think you both proved your points by just behaving as you did.
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I hope Karl reads this and I welcome his thoughts. He was patronising and unnecessarily provocative. I would suggest that Karl pick his targets more thoughtfully when it comes to his journalism: i.e. people or issues deserving of aggressive probing (actually, I think he was arrogant rather than aggressive, but anyway..) rather than debating whether women’s success is stemmed from an individual’s persistence or the influence of feminism. Well done Mia and Lisa on maintaining an external presence of calm during that interview. I’m not sure I could have. At this point I am restraining myself from further fury towards his commentary, questioning and demeanour. I am feeling more ‘rubbed up the wrong way’ by Karl than I am Jacki O’s position. Unbelievable.
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Well, Jackie O hey? In Melbourne we don’t fully understand or reward ‘shock jocks’ the way Sydney seems to. The fact that Jackie O continues to hitch her wagon to the talent-less Kyle Sandilands points to her questionable integrity, and her quite precarious base credibility. Frankly she doesn’t carry the weight of influence, nor the character, that would make me care about her opinion.
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I’m in suburban Sydney, I’ve never found anyone who listens to them….I’ve asked
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Jackie O- a feminist? I hope not!
As Kyle Sandiland’s side kick, ally and supporter, I am very glad that she has rightly chosen not to describe herself as such.
As a feminist (and proud) I deplore the attitudes which have been repeatedly represented on her radio show. Jackie O may enjoy the opportunities afforded to her, in part by the work of the feminist movement but as I see it, her radio program does little to promote the worth and dignity of women.
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Just watched the video.
I don’t know how both Lisa and Mia put up with Karl when he gets like that. At one point Mia just looked at him like he was an annoying little brother stirring up trouble because he could. Like she knew it was an act so he could keep all the male execs and viewers happy.
Lisa is seriously one amazing woman to put up with Karl with unfailing grace and dignity on a daily basis. I’m in awe of her.
I do have to admit though as much as I love getting up on my strident feminist high horse, Karl does provide amusement and dare I say entertainment by playing the devils advocate.
It is so nice to see feminism being reintroduced to mainstream media’s vocabulary again.
On a side note though, I really really love Mia’s outfit! The necklace and skirt especially. It would be great to find out where she bought them from?
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I think Karl was beyond playing “devil’s advocate”, don’t you?
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Did anyone else get the feeling Karl was gaslighting them a little?
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Well done for keeping at this. I had trouble watching the clip of the Today show – Karl’s performance was made me cringe. And yes, he was gaslighting and more than a little!
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That video from the Today Show is sadly, typical of many discussions about feminism in mainstream media. Karl Stefanovic resorting to badgering Lisa and Mia by calling them ‘cranky’ when it’s obvious that they’ve outgunned him is just plain cringe-worthy. I’m surprised he didn’t resort to ‘are you on your rags’?
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Saudi Arabia is hardly a comparison.. Arabian men are arogant beasts……give Aussie men the credit were it is due….the majority of our men have respectful equal attitudes towards thier women…..maybe come halfway down the pedestal…or perhaps don’t shout so loudly
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I really dislike the word ‘feminism’ it automatically pigeon holes and discredits a female persons individual triumps, I feel very accompolished in my life, in what I have achieved for myself, my family and the entire human race in general, I have birthed 4 little souls who will hopefull do good in the world and also birth do gooders……please don’t call me a feminist…..may as well put a big star badge on your shirt….. the majority of people on this earth work for the greater good without expecting an honour badge, seems a little nose in the air to me……both men and women have progressed in attitude we have both evolved…… so what we don’t get paid as much as men on some occassions….we get to carry a baby inside us for 9 months they don’t…….suck it up
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Without feminism you would have had to quit your job when you married or had children (public v private sector rules), you would have earned dramatically less than men, you would never be able get a mortgage, you would have ask your husband’s permission to have your tubes tied, you wouldn’t be allowed to vote, you would have to prove your husband abused you or cheated on you (near impossible in a man’s world) to be allowed a divorce. I could go on, but suffice to say, without feminism, women would be second class citizens, like we always were until we started standing up for ourselves. Jackie O would never have risen above her first position in radio – she started as a receptionist & without feminism, there she’d stay – well, until she got pregnant….
You don’t have to call yourself a feminist to appreciate what they did for us, and if we turn our backs it could all go away.
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Great comment Melanie- sums it up perfectly
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This was a very frustrating video to watch. Both Lisa and Mia are on the defence because of Karl’s immaturity. I really hope this dynamic changes in the future.
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I have to say that I did not feel at all inspired by the above photo gallery….I now just feel an additional amount of pressure to be everything to everybody….also I think if you asked Germaine Greer what her thoughts on Marilyn Monroe are, I don’t thing feminist would pop up.
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The comments of the Today were exaggerated. My mother got a mortgage, without my father, to build a house in 1958. Her sister did the same in the 1940s. There were married women in the NSW public service in 1968. One of the problems with 1970s’ feminists is they think they pioneered everything but then that is a common problem with the whole baby boomer generation, male and female.
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I am happy for your mother. However…
I applied for a mortgage with a friend (girl) in 1980 and we were refused on the grounds that they were protecting our reputation – they did not want people thinking that we were lesbians. Seriously.
And in 1988, a woman came to my house to demonstrate a new fancy vacuum cleaner but would left as there was no male in the house to make the decision. Seriously.
And I can go on and on.
Happy for your monther but she was the exception rather than the rule. Maybe they knew there was a man in the background.
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Sorry David, but it happened to me in 1985 too. Tried to get a mortgage for a one bed flat (and I had saved a 30% deposit on the total price of $48000) and was told I would need a male guarantor. Even though I had a permanent public service job a the time. In my job, when I queried why I didn’t get a promotion, I was actually told the reason was “nothing to do with my work performance – it was because men make better managers”. In the 80′s, no woman in that department had been able to rise above a Level 3. Men promoted men who held similar views to themselves and on and on the cycle went. We’ve come along way since then, but we should not get complacent and think the job of achieving equality is complete.
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” no woman in that department had been able to rise above a Level 3.”
As opposed to the modern public service wherein women get promoted because they are women (regardless of merit or lack thereof) thanks to Affirmative Action legislation.
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a) Jackie O shits me for so many reasons but I think all of them can be summed up by her thinly veiled need to be liked by all. She is the ultimate fence sitter.
b) Could Karl S have been any more antagonistic during that discussion?!!
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Karl is annoying.
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It has irked me for a while, but it kind of fits on topic, so I will say it:
how patronising is the whole “girls on the grill” title?
Oh, look! the little women get to put forward their funny little opinions on things!! let’s try and keep it a bit fluffy and trivial and womens issue-y!
Because Lisa and Mia couldn’t possibly have a reasoned and valuable opinion on things IN SPITE of their gender?? I don’t have a problem with what is discussed and put forth in the segment, just the whole, and now let’s hear what that very strange and tiny subset of the population (women!) think of things.
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Well Katyberry it IS channel 9 we are talking about, not exactly women friendly channel at the best of times. Boof head worship is where its at, so much so that I actually don’t watch even one show on 9 regularly. Instead of the 9 network it should be the “Barefoot and Pregnant network” bring on the ABC and SBS.
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it seems disrespectful to me to not identify with or acknowledge the people who bravely fought for your rights.
What media person would dare to state such ambivalence about the ANZACs?
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I often read this website but have never bothered to write anything but today I just feel the need to.
Personally my thoughts are that I think of myself as someone who values equality for all, and freedom for all – and I hope that anyone in our country feels free to do what ever they choose to do……..but why oh why do I then have to put a label on these beliefs as “feminism”? The word itself makes me feel like I am ‘siding’ with women over men, when really I just believe in equality for all.
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Mia, you say “So I’m confused by your insistence that you’re not a feminist.”
Insistence? That’s not how I read it. She was asked a question (a baited question, I believe) and simply and quietly responded that she’s never considered herself a feminist. Hardly insistence. You are putting words into her mouth IMO.
I think she was being non-political. How does her feminist or non-feminist status affect whatever perceived influence, as a successful career woman, she might have on young women?
The minute she publicly announced herself as a feminist she would have been pounced on (probably even by you) for her involvement with KS and questioned on how the hell she could call herself a feminist..blah-dy blah blah….
People can *talk* all they like, but by *being* a strong independant woman she is *showing* others it can be done.
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I have to say I agree – it’s a baited question – and she probably didn’t think too hard about the answer. I’d probably say the same in an interview. Some feminists get awfully choosy about who can “claim” the title – she would have probably been attacked either way!
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Why on earth is Jackie O coping open criticism because she doesn’t refer to herself as a feminist?
So much for the ‘feminist’ ideal of women supporting women!
Yeah, I’m sure after all this public anger she’ll hop on the bandwagon.
Just my suggestion: if you want to get people on side, try persuading them of the benefits of whatever it is you’re trying to promote. This tends to work a lot better than having a go at them in a public forum because they don’t conform to your ideals.
PS – The video is of Mia & Lisa, not ‘Lana’
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Of course I am a feminist. I am no fence-sitter. I acknowledge all the great women who fought hard and long to “allow” Jackie O to be placed in the position she is today. They paved the way. There will always be those willing to stand up and fight for change and those who reap the benefits. For those unwilling to acknowledge, those who have forgotten… the story is a good one, perhaps if you knew it, it might change your perception. You acknowledge Don Bradman in cricket history, The “great” Phar Lap and a myriad of sports and national heroes, but just as the greatest of feminists alluded to for many years you, Jackie O, remain quiet and keep these women invisible. If Jackie O has succeeded all power to her, but she has not succeeded in other ways. With one eye on the ratings, allowing her colleague to demean a woman on-air, so other people’s children can hear it, and still, like Bartelby, she prefers not to… I don’t listen to the radio show, but my students, both male and female, vomit this stuff into my classroom. Since when is “you fat slag” acceptable? Twelve year old boys thought it was funny. Had Jackie O, responded to that rant, for all mothers,
I might have had a sliver of respect for her. Feminism is a history of men and women, it is also a history of how we bring up our sons. Any woman worth her salt “gets it”. Forget the label of “feminism” if it irks you Jackie,
words, words words. It is the indifference the non action where it counts that really means something. Respect. Respect for women. As to the comments about an international problem, doesn’t happen here…. bollocks. Domestic violence, rape is still an issue. They do not “ask” to be victims. Women still continue to accept the unacceptable in their own sons.
What are we willing to speak to them about? Why are we silent when they do not respect women? In the office, on the airwaves, at home. Feminists continue to hold women in high regard, and want their sons to understand that. Jackie O silence speaks volumes…. when it is other peoples sons and daughters doing the listening. She needs grace (to acknowledge the women and their kids that paved the way) and a backbone where it counts.
This is a matter of character (and obviously a matter of ratings and money first) Who cares right? It’s other people’s kids. Lucky that I have great female students who speak up, can hold their own and our proud of themselves as young women (when the boys in the class mouthed Kyle’s sentiments as if it was okay). Sandilands…Jackie O, part of the same codependancy. What will Ms O say when her girl gets to big school and some young man sprouts the same “sandilanguage” to her daughter…will it be called demeaning, bullying, derogatory. You betcha she’ll speak out.
They put Phar Lap in a glass case as a national icon… a national treasure… The unoriginal Jackie O stands on the shoulders of giants….
but has her head in the sand at the same time.
You know the old saying…those who put their head in the sand, just show people their arse. No matter how feminine it is.
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Given your obvious obsessions, I feel very sorry for the boys in your class and would be extremely concerned if they were my sons. Your attitudes, and the way you refer to men and boys, indicate clearly that your approach is the very epitome of the kind of girl-friendly education which virtually excludes boys and causes the current serious educational and broader social issues with boys falling badly behind. But this doesn’t matter does it – as long as the girls are OK. This is the very problem with the narrowness of feminist thought. It leaves the other gender out of account, except as villains and perpetrators.
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Nonsense Richard. I have taught in three GPS boys private schools and girls schools alike. After thirty years I can tell you that I can’t print what boys attitudes to women are, where do they get this from? Kyle Sandilands is no role model. We don’t need him condoning this kind of behaviour, because it will impact your daughter if you have one. Respect respect respect. For both. In this instance we are talking about comments demeaning women, they are public comments that make their way into the classroom. As if it is okay to do so. If a female journo had said the same, and the girls in the class repeated it, same treatment for them.
Honestly, don’t feel sorry for the boys in my class. I don’t exclude them, but I don’t let them to talk about women in that way. They have mothers and grandmothers don’t they? If a girl does the same thing, then they are granted the same and equal punishment. This was a specific incident about a specific shock jock, in a specific class. The narrowness here is that you choose to interpret my comments through the feminist tag.
If your sons spoke like that in my class about girls in the class would you defend them? If girls spoke like that would that warrant punishment. You bet. We are speaking about the language of hate.
It has no place. But lets face it, there is no equality in the language stakes. Ever wonder why there are so many derogatory terms for women?
What is the equivalent terminology and with equal potency for men?
How civilised are we?
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Every word you write confirms what I said. You concentrate wholly on the girls, and treat the boys as at best nuisances and at worst evil perpetrators. Please consider the performance of boys as against girls in all educational measures over the last 10-15 years. Please also consider the tragic epidemic of young male suicides. Wouldn’t it be great if you would consider students of both genders as worthwhile people having great potential ,but perhaps requiring somewhat different approaches.
I despair when I read your comments, coming from a teacher of such experience. You confirm my worst fears about many female teachers’ attitudes to boys. No wonder they kill themselves in considerable numbers. – their self-esteem must be nil.
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I am female and I have to agree with Richard, I have 2 sons and 2 daughters and feel greatly for my sons…….. I may as well chop thier balls off now, because apparently they don’t need them……I acknowledge that there has been women throughout history who have made this world a better place and am extremely greatful for that but please, we have made it, we are about as equal as we are can possible get, let the men keep a bit of dignity!!…
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Oh dear Richard. You have descended in to red herring country. Now you are blaming women teachers for boys suicides. A complex problem like that with a multitude of complex factors, and you use it cavalierly to score points. How awful for you.
You can blame all the teachers in the world, but it all starts and ends with you the parent. Notably if you do not respect female teachers, ultimately little Johnny wont, but it wont go unanswered if he attacks another student with hateful language. Conversely, the same applies for female students, who do no end of damage with hate language to their own peer groups.
Which part of the respect equation do you not get? ..You quoted:
Please also consider the tragic epidemic of young male suicides. Wouldn’t it be great if you would consider students of both genders as worthwhile people having great potential ,but perhaps requiring somewhat different approaches.
You are talking about approaches to academic performance and correcting imbalances.
We have been talking about downright sledging and hateful behaviour. Any teacher worth their salt will tell you. The little Johnny you see and “hear” at home, is sometimes not the little Johnny that we see. Same goes for little Sarah. Students “act out”, but amazingly, what the school sees is not what you see. Amazing isn’t it?
I reiterate the question. Do you allow your sons to speak demeaningly to women and girls? Do you allow your daughters to speak demeaningly to men and boys? I don’t. Nor I do I condone Sandlilands…remember him…the topic of this question along with his non speaking on a issue of substance sidekick.
I’ll give you this Richard. Parents are always shocked when they have to attend a meeting about their child’s behaviours. Many are in denial…its the schools fault, its the teachers fault. Really? Many are shocked because they don’t see this at home.
I despair at parents who continue to blame. It is my duty of care to eradicate any language that is demeaning or any bullying of any student. If your son was the perpetrator, I have a duty to stamp it out, a duty to the girls parents too. if you daughter was the perpetrator, the very same thing applies.
Sadly, some parents attack teachers. Perhaps the answer you are searching for is in your own backyard, or your own attitudes? Students copy and ape behaviours from many sources. But ultimately, the imprint is from you and mum.
That is what counts here. Will you allow Sandilands to undermine your own good work? That’s the real issue …taking pot shots at me and moronically blaming female attitudes for suicide, is
just plain sad.
How did you extropolate that from the original conversation? Amazing.
Perhaps if you read back your own words they may reveal something to you about your own attitudes.
Enough said.
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So on that criteria, if you want to continue the gender war, which the term “feminist” clearly implies, I want to identify myself as a “masculinist”, because I want to address the life span gap between men and women – ie the fact that men die significantly earlier – the fact that men commit suicide more than twice as often as women, the fact that by far the majority of the dirtiest and most dangerous jobs are done by men and the fact that men’s health is substantially worse on average than women’s (despite the fact that all we ever hear about is “women’s health”).
Just let’s take suicide for a moment – male suicide, especially of teenage boys, is a national epidemic which is hardly mentioned. Until we pay as much attention to it as we do to, say, breast cancer, it seems that we need a masculinist movement.
Can’t we all just say that we are fellow members of the human race, which still has problems that need to be addressed? Why do we have to continue the gender war?
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Actually, I think men commit suicide at a rate almost 5 times women.
You can also add to your list homelessness, mental health care, family court, the criminal justice system, work life flexibility.
But oh no, to Mia and co, there is only one gender that have it tough and who are worth fighting for.
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This is such a great comment, Richard. I would identify as a feminist and a masculinist, not questions asked! I am a teacher and I have nephews I adore, and the disadvantages facing boys concern me just as much as those facing girls.
Does that make me a humanist? I’ll take it!
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Yes, let’s look at suicide for a moment. More males are successful at it, but more females attempt it. That changes the picture a bit doesn’t it? More women (and their children) live in poverty than men too.
I won’t deny that men have issues of their own, but so do women.
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Exactly, Faybian. Women’s suicide “attempts” are more likely to be simply acts of attention seeking, whereas men actually kill themselves. But don’t worry – they’re only males, so they’re expendable – ‘women and children first” and all that.
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Can you please reference that insulting generalisation? There is that proportion that seeks attention, but sometimes the attention seeking is a cry for help and sometimes, it takes a few goes before someone succeeds at suicide. Mental health workers do take suicide attempts seriously.
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Richard, don’t blame Faybian for the fact that men are more likely to own guns – and therefore more likely to use them in suicide attempts and therefore more likely to ‘succeed’ in those attempts.
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Silly comment. Suicide (attempted or otherwise) is too serious to be used for point scoring.
And has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Typical of someon who is more interested in winning than discussing.
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Mia I LOVE how you say JACKIE O is a role model for women. Yes a superficial woman who does not stick up for another woman who gets slaughtered on radio. A woman who giggles as a 14 year old child is strapped to a lie detector and questioned about her sex life. YES you are right Mia, JACKIE O should be a role model for women…..
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total agree anonymous..Jackie O is no role model in my eyes either. Cant believe she would be suggested to be one !
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Hate to rehash the past, but you claim that Jackie O is a role model and couldn’t believe how Cadel Evans could be…
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Rehash away! But that not actually correct. I said Cadel wasn’t a hero – to me. Role model didn’t come into it. And I didn’t say jackie was my role model necessarily. I just said she has achieved a lot in her industry and many girls DO consider her a role model.
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That’s fair they are actually very different (this is not sarcasm).
As you state you now understand that different people now have varying views on what feminism is. I think it is quite a strong word to associate yourself with and I think that can be quite scary for lots of people.
I look at it as I possess many traits of an animal activist, but if someone asked I wouldn’t consider myself an animal activist. I think it all comes down to interpretation.
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Mia, I was one of those people who would have said “I’m not a feminist… but”. Until I read your article! You make very fair, realistic statements. I agree wholeheartedly. I’m a feminist baby!
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Jackie O can’t admit to being a feminist in case there is backlash from her male colleagues or employers. Simple.
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Can someone please give me a definition of feminism that isn’t going to change next week, and all women agree is the one and true definition?
It seems to me women all have their own definition of what a feminist is, or should be, but everyone’s idea is different.
It’s hardly surprising that men don’t take feminism as seriously as women would like. We don’t have any damned clue what it means.
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Oppression of women by men is no more prevalent than men being oppressed by women. We’ve passed that era. Now is just the slow resocialisation of women to develop the same tactics, mannerisms and attitudes that have been socialized into men for centuries. Feminism is just a product of discourse as demostrated by the arguments above regarding its meaning. Often I feel it’s the ‘feminists’ who are passing the most judgement of other women who aren’t fitting their ideal. Let people just be themselves & do what makes them happy. The facts are that biologically it makes more sense for women to take time out of work for child rearing, therefore more men are consistently in the workforce & it becomes more likely that relationships are formed that lead to career & paycheck progression, plus women have less aggressive professional behaviors ( less likely to demand a raise)
Making us all sound like victims is what makes people want to distance themselves from the feminist movement. Get on with your life instead of blame gaming.
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I wasn’t surprised to see comments here on Monday from what was very obviously an activist from the so-called men’s rights movement, the poor things,quoting the usual scary sad stuff about boys and sexual abuse by women etc. Saw this on Facebook today and thought people might find this interesting: .http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/myths-of-the-manosphere-lying-about-women Cheers, Nareen
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You are a perfect example of the undesirable underbelly of feminism. The one that cant ever accept that maybe, just maybe, men have their own gender specific issues, or that men can be victims or suffer disadvantage too.
You are the perfect case study in how hardline feminists think they have a monolopoly on victimhood, and scoff when a man dares even suggest they have issues that should be addressed as well.
I dont blame some men for trying to scream from the rooftops that they can be victims in life sometimes as well, as society just scoffs when a man dare suggest anything like a violent partner etc. Afterall, it is only violence against women that Australia says no to, it is only women that Kyle Sanderlands has been told by he courts he cant verbally assault (despite him having verballed plenty of men over the years as well).
There is a definate trend going down that is a real worry – a trend that says only women can be victims in life.
I feel sorry for the boys growing up with this pervasive attitude. The other day, my 9 year old daughter said to me (out of the blue) “did you know dad that it is illegal to hit a girl, but not a boy’ I kid you not. That is the extent we are getting to with this one sided feminist victim view on things. Rant over.
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Um Nareen, did you seriously just quote an article from the SPLC, a far left wing radical socialist organization funding in part by RADICAL feminist blog Radfemhub, who advocate killing men, castrating all men and reducing the male population to 10% for breeding purposes? Yes you did. I could debunk every claim by SPLC in about 10 seconfd flat. You notice how SPLC don’t mention anything about radical feminism’s death wish for men? Notice how they are silent on it? Not a little bit suspicious as to why?
NAARP!
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Joanna, the SPLC is the Souther Povert Law Center. If you consider that to be a “far left wing radical socialist organization” then I think your white hood is obscuring your vision. Among other things, you seem to have missed the fact that one of the authors of that article is a man.
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But they they are partially funded by a radical left wing feminist organization who have called for the extermination of men. What do you say to that lulu before jumping on to the feminist shaming tactic of calling me a white hood member?
Why not argue about how SPLC used to be the southern poverty law center and now have little of nothing to do with their original scope? Why have they written an article on men’s rights without consulting one men’s rights activist, then when challenges by a high profile one, they were silent, but then wrote more articles calling mra’s racist and hateful, all complete lies, yet not a word when presented with page captures from their sponsors showing conversations about killing men?
Umm?
I am really interested as to how this isn’t just bullshit of the highest order. Please do tell me, coz I’m dying to tell the rest of the white hoods or any other straw men you care to lump me in with, without arguing the point as you seem to ALWAYS do
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