Mary Poppins was not a horrible bitch. Neither was Maria from the Sound of Music. Both women were strong yet wise with the purest of hearts and kindest of intentions. They were also nannies. So what’s with this god-awful $10m ad campaign from the tobacco industry trying to convince us that plain packaging is a bad idea by hiring an actress who looks like The Freak from Prisoner and railing against a ‘nanny state’?
Tobacco People, this is so many shades of wrong, it’s hard to know where to start. How about here: it seems ‘nanny-state’ has become the new ‘politically correct’ – a derisive term used to sneer at anyone who advocates tolerance, respect and consideration for others. “Un-Australian” is often used in the same way (* waves to gambling industry *). They’re blunt, lazy, dumbed-down terms, which do nothing but try to shut down debate.
And what’s with the demonisation of nannies, anyway? Like all other childcare workers, nannies have a singular purpose: to care for vulnerable people who aren’t old enough, smart enough or responsible enough to make the right decisions. Decisions which can have negative consequences for themselves and others.
Are there teens and adults who fit that same criteria and who could benefit from a bit of Mary Poppins style guidance? So many. Like the ones who drink and drive or don’t put seatbelts on their kids. The ones who smoke with children in the car or flick lit cigarette butts out the window. Or take drugs. Or drive dangerously. Surely that’s the job of a government; to protect its citizens from each other and sometimes from themselves. That’s why we have laws. And the plain packaging legislation simply seeks to protect vulnerable people from being influenced by marketing to take up a deadly habit.
Maybe you’re a smoker and you don’t think tobacco-marketing influences you and perhaps you’re right. But this isn’t about you. This is about people younger than you. Not as wise. They’re the ones we need to protect. There’s no other reason for plain packaging legislation. Really. So bring it on.
Okay, now back to nannies for a moment because I’m perplexed by the way they’ve been cast as villains. I’ve never met a nanny who looks or acts like The Freak. The ones I’ve known and employed over the years have been lovely, professional women (haven’t met a Manny yet but I’m told they’re fantastic) who work damn hard looking after other people’s kids. Just like any other type of childcare worker except inside your house.
Of course we must acknowledge the economic elephant in the room: it’s expensive to employ a nanny and those who can are fortunate. Absolutely. Like most parents, we’ve had a hodgepodge of childcare arrangements since I returned to work part-time when our first child was four months old. This has included everything from grandparents, to day-care, pre-school and after-school care. When we’ve had nannies, they’ve mostly been part-timers; girls who’ve done a few days on the side while they finished uni or worked another job or saved some cash to go travelling. However long they stay though, it’s an oddly intimate relationship. Who else gets to see your family dynamics up so close not to mention the natural state of your house? Gulp.
When it works, a nanny can become a unique hybrid of sister, wife and friend. When it doesn’t, it’s like having another child. Or worse. I once hired a nanny who – I discovered later – came to work hungover and snoozed all day on my couch before stealing bag-fulls of my clothes. But it’s always been a theme in my life that my worst experience of something (job, relationship etc.) comes right before my best. And the nanny I employed after that spectacular disaster is now on maternity leave after being with us for five years. She has been the most wonderful influence on our kids and a balm on our chaotic household.
Still, there’s a lingering sense of guilt and shame in some circles about admitting you have a nanny. “I never say ‘my nanny’, I say ‘my babysitter’” says one friend in the public eye who resents the implication that because she has a nanny who looks after her daughters while she and her husband work, she doesn’t spend any time with them. “Yes, I know I’m lucky to be able to afford to have my childcare come to me but how does that have any bearing on what type of parent I am?” she wonders defensively.
You most often hear this gripe when the subject of celebrity parents comes up – the idea that they have a fleet of nannies who raise their kids while they go gallivanting around the world to red carpets and film sets. The inference: bad parents.
But we know little of what actually goes on in other people’s families, famous or not. Having a nanny does not necessarily mean you are an absent or disengaged parent. Just like not having one doesn’t mean you are a present and involved one.
So enough with the demonising. Let’s remember: nannies (and their employers) aren’t the bad guys. Tobacco companies are.
Here’s one nanny state ad…
And another…
What do you think?







Comments
124 Comments so far
Very informative post! I consider that Decisions which can have negative consequences for themselves and others. Thanks for fine luck and come back soon for your next event.
Bounty Hunter Pioneer 3300
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Adults are adults and ought to remain free to make their own choices.
Surely the simply solution to prevent the cost of the decisions of some flowing on to those of us who choose not to partake is to remove smoking-related illnesses from the public healthcare system? Of course the criteria would need to be more refined than that, but honestly – do whatever the hell you like, as long as you are not harming anyone in the process, but be prepared to pay for it in the end.
I don’t have an issue with smokers – but I do have an issue with my tax dollars going to look after them in their old (or young, actually, as the case may be) smoke-addled age.
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I have been a Nanny for over 10 years, I am fully qualified as a Pre School teacher and consider myself a professional. So I found myself quite offended when I saw these ads and yelling at the TV. I think the term Nanny State Is insulting and I’m glad someone (Mia) spoke about it. Too many times I’ve been called a ” babysitter” and told my work isn’t really a job. To those people I’ll swap with you any day! It’s about time Nannys were taken seriously and not used to represent a negative character in some government ad campaign. Thanks Mia.
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I work in the ad industry and am therefore exposed to hundreds of TV commercials each month – and I have to say, this is one of the worst! As some people have already mentioned, the Tobacco companies have no leg to stand on so are pushing the ‘Im over 18′ statement… A very lame message but I’m sure it will have it’s stubborn followers.
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I actually like the term ‘nanny state’ and believe it has it’s place. I agree it is often used as a shorthand way to present ones views but that’s part of the reason I like it
If I think you are impinging on my liberties I’m gonna say so and you’re gonna have to convince me otherwise.
But as for the tobacco companies? They don’t have a leg to stand on and they know it.
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I hate these ads. I’m not sure they will actually help reduce the amount of cigarettes sold though. I think a good idea is to not offer health insurance to smokers.
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Totally agree !
I hate these ads and I strongly dislike the manner in which good, considerate people are denigrated in generalisations used by those with a self-serving agenda. When did it become socially unacceptable to do good ?
Hopefully the nannies and the “do-gooders” will have enough conviction & courage to ignore the sleazy taunts and carry on benefitting our communities.
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Actually, Mary Poppins was a bitch !
Have you heard her sing “Chim Chim Cheree” ? How cruel is that ?
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The Government has every right to require packaging requirements on certain products. It already does with clothes, carpet, alcohol, food, paint and loads of other things.
I wonder if lots of the people complaining about the ‘Nanny-state’ requiring plain packaging also complain about the ‘Nanny-state’ providing income support? Do we really want a society where all citizens are left to fend for themselves completely?
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I was a heavy smoker for a number of years before deciding to kick my filthy habit back in 1996.
Every time the price of a pack of the dreaded weed rose, I swore that I’d quit when it cost “X” to buy a carton. Initially, I smoked Du Maurier cigarettes as I thought the red and gold pack to be quite classy. Went Cartier introduced a cigarette onto the Australian market, I changed brands because I believed the advertising…Le must de Cartier. If it’s Cartier, you must have it”,
Gradually, my brand was priced out of my price range. Damn and blast ! All that I could afford was Winnies and PJ’s. Reasonable tasting ciggie, not to glamorous pack. But who would know what brand was in my pocket if it was held in one of those fancy cases ?
I paid one hundred dollars for a beautifully ornate, gold plated case at DJ’s. It went so well with the gold plated Playboy bunny lighter that I’d decided to gift myself as I could never stand the site of those cheap Bic lighters or a box of matches.
I smoked until I decided that I wanted to quit. But until I decided to quit, I made sure that my bad habit looked as sophisticated and alluring to all those who saw me with my gold plated case.
I would expect that the plan to introduce plain packaging will have more to do with the rise in sales of cigarette cases than it will have to do with the fall in the sales of what you put in them.
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I’m not quite sure that the Nanny State is the new PC, but I’m convinced that it is the latest effort in social engineering.
I look at the Nanny State as the modern day wowser who can’t stand to see anyone enjoying themselves. For sure, there will always be those who enjoy themselves to excess. But most of us know the meaning of the words moderation and occasionally. I’m reminded of the days when the entire class would be given detention because one student failed to deliver his/her homework. The many are expected to suffer for the few. You then direct your anger and indignation to the individual who broke the rules rather than he/she who is issuing the penalty.
I’m fed up with those who believe that they have the right to tell us when to think, drink and blink.
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All tobacco shops sell pretty and cool tins with designs on them so kids can just slip their plain packets inside those. Plain packaging won’t change the fact that kids think smoking is ‘cool’ they will find a way around it by buying ‘hello kitty’ etc patterns. (adult smokers don’t buy smokes for the packets, it’s for the hit of nicotine inside)
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Spot on Mia. I am so tired of people throwing the term ‘nanny state’ around to condemn any sort of Government initiative that they don’t like. Seems to be shorthand for ‘I am completely inarticulate’. Can we introduce a ‘Godwin’s Law’ (first person to hyperbolicly compare another person’s point of view to Hitler or the Nazi’s losed the argument) type approach to the term ‘Nanny State’?
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If working mums feel judged by having a nanny, try being a stay at home mum who has in the past employed a part-time nanny. The ‘oh what do you do with your time’ comments did wear thin, usually from other women interestingly, who I know would have had an army of helpers if they were in my situation – SAHM with 4 kids under school age (actually the most vocal and judgemental of me had her mother move in upon the birth of her first child!)….. I’m sure the assumption was that I was out having coffee, shopping for new clothes and having girlie lunches while the nanny was with my kids or that I was such a princess I couldnt cope with it on my own. The truth was on the couple of afternoons each week I had her I was doing the grocery shopping and taking my eldest child to swimming lessons without having to wrestle all 4 preschoolers in and out of the car with me. We shouldnt have to justify our choices and its sad we feel we should…I know I was doing the best for my family and thats all I care about.
I’m all for a nanny state though if it gets the smoking message across- unlikely but worth a try.
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That’s a shame, your situation is completely within my realm of understanding.
My MIL had 5 kids, and she once told me her mother and FIlL would have the kids for one day a week.
Despite having them with larger gaps than yourself (across a 10 year period), & even though she had her fruit, veg and meat home-delivered, she still dedicated that whole day to errands.
She also worked full time for a whole year. Simply for her own sanity.
We do what we need to, and what we can.
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I don’t think the term ‘nanny-state’ is meant to be derogatory toward nannies, but about how the government treats us like children, i.e. protected. I’m a full time Mum, but that is my choice and suits my situation. I am the perfect parent for my son, so that is great. But nannies I have met seem wonderful people, and it must be so much harder raising other people’s children so good on them!
I completely agree with you on the Plain packaging argument. What are the actual smokers worried about? They know what brand they smoke. They won’t be swayed to change by the prettiest pack. And if smokers are concerned that plain packaging is going to stop new smokers then they have a bigger problem .
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I would love to not have to spend the extra money a nanny entails, however, there is a drastic shortage of chidcare, and despite putting my child’s name down while pregnant, I can’t get her in anywhere! I also call our nanny a babysitter to not sound elitist!
To be honest, those ads really, really annoy me because they are jumping on the bandwagon of a phenomenon that does actually annoy me, that people do seem to need official rules now to know how to behave within society.
However, perhaps smoking is its own special issue, and does need special rules. So many people do not seem to be able to give up smoking, even while they/their loved ones are dying of smoking-related diseases.
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Those ads just make me associate tobacco companies with the shadowy, evil atmosphere that the ad depicts.
Fail tobacco industry.
I’d say the target market for these ads is too busy being misled by Tony Abbott about the carbon tax to have any mental space left for another pack-of-lies campaign.
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worst ad’s ever!
anything that is done to reduce the attractiveness of smoking is worth it.
sorry ciggie company’s no sympathy here
ps. i equally hated those ads that made it seem that the cig companies were only concerned about the shopkeepers that sold their product… sorry didn’t buy that one either
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Well if we are going to use this idea of nannies protecting the young and vunerable from harms such as smoking, and I agree a dreadful and dangerous thing to do, lets do the same for alcohol. After all, aren’t we all sick of the violence and road carnage, our young are invovled in due to binge drinking. I have to negogiate around about a dozen sandwich boards outside my local bottle shop advertising alcoholic beverages that are promoting a good time. Have to watch ads for it a the movies. If the packaging of cigarettes is responsible for people smoking then surely ads and labels would be why we have a binge drinking problem, right.. And while we are at it why not plain package junk food, the health cost from obisity are out of control. Just have to wonder where it will end. If a product is legal then it should be allowed to be packaged as the manufacture wishes. Bet the wine and spirit industry would be up in arms if the government tried to remove their labels.
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I find the ads so annoying. It is such an oversimplification of the issue, lead by tobacco companies and those who sell tobacco products to the public. I agree, I applaud the government for their attempts to cut back smoking. Having worked in a supermarket around the time when they brought in the law to have only one register to sell tobacco, there were a lot of smokers inconvenienced because of it, some even quitting all together because it was too much of a hassle – longer lines and waiting times, an extra ten minutes to buy one packet of ciggies before having to wait in line again in 2 days time.
I know a lot of smokers feel victimised because of these laws, but there are a lot of benefits to these campaigns, improving general health and cutting costs for smoking related medical conditions and freeing up hospital beds. My Pa died from emphysema and spent the last few years of his life connected to a Oxygen machine. It is because of this that I feel this way, no one deserves to have this happen to them, and the main way to stop this is to discourage smoking.
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I wish the inconvenienced smokers who couldn’t be bothered waiting and thus quit shopped at my local supermarkets! On many more than one occasion at more than one supermarket I can be standing in the ‘handbasket only’ queue for a while (toddler in tow) and the minute someone walks up to the front counter to buy cigarettes the cashier leaves one of the registers to serve them!
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I bet those ads wouldnt have been concocted like that if we didnt have a woman PM at the moment. If Im right about that, they are not just a dumbed-down presentation of the issue and paint nannies as prison wardens, there is also a misogynistic element to them. The tobacco industry evidently has a low opinion of peoples intelligence and values. But then, if they had a higher opinion of us, they wouldnt continue pushing their poison.
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I am smoke free for 8 months now (after 36 years of smoking) and agree that anything that makes smoking less attractive is a good thing. However, I think it is a bit rude of the government to take such steps to regulate a legal product. I might also point out that (as the daughter of alcoholic parents) nobody ever smoked a cigarette and got behind the wheel and killed someone, or smoked a cigarette and went home and beat their spouse and children. Alcohol is a huge problem in the community and little is being done to make it less attractive to children. Instead we cheer when a prominent radio personality with an admitted alcohol problem succesfullly undergoes a liver transplant. I do not believe the government makes much out of the tax on cigarettes, I think that everyone who is smoking on a certain date should be provided with a licence to buy cigarettes and that no new licences should be issued after that date. That would mean that smoking would just slowly die out (pun intended).
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Vanessa, i absolutely agree with you. I think alcohol is a horrible drug, and it is not necessary despite what most of the community think.
The medical repercussions are awful – liver disease is also a terrible death, and its unpredictable, sometimes affecting those who drink within ‘safe’ limits or those who binge drink.
I would support alcohol being banned, but would settle for it being made culturally less acceptable. This is a highly unpopular viewpoint however, with most people being at least mildly addicted to alcohol (whilst vehemently denying it), and having all sorts of excuses for why drinking is a good thing.
I’m now preparing my shield to protect against all the arrows which are about to be thrown..
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I would be keen to see your evidence that alcohol can affect liver adversely when consumed in safe (the moderation limits recommended by health authorities) amounts.
Binge drinking is really bad for you, just like heavily drinking each day is. But I drink the occasional wine and I’m fairly certain I’m not addicted to it like smokers become addicted to cigarettes.
Plus there is evidence that suggests things like red wine are beneficial within safe limits.. the same can not be said for cigarettes. I’m not disputing the alcohol is a massive problem for a variety of reasons but I think you’re comparing apples and oranges.
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There is plenty of evidence. There are many studies showing the risk threshold for developing liver disease is around 30g/daily (3 standard drinks). Genetic factors relating to the metabolism of alcohol, along with other lifestyle/health issues will determine who is most susceptible. If you are at the unfortunate end, you may develop cirrhosis with an alcohol intake within the perceived safe intake limit. Then there are the additional problems of overestimating the size of a standard drink, and combining all ‘allowed’ drinks into binges. In general, most people underestimate what they drink. I have seen several young people die of cirrhosis despite drinking ‘normally’. You can’t get a transplant unless you have been abstinent for 6 mths, so the hinch solution will not work for most people.
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Put your shield down, KateA. I have only one thing to say to you.
Prohibition. It didn’t work when it was introduced in the USA during the 1920′s. Indirectly, the manufacturing and provision of cheap, rotgut, bootleg alcohol led to the rise of organised crime in the country.
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Your licensing idea is a really good one.
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I hate those ‘nanny state’ adds too.. but because I completely support plain packaging on tobacco.
My dad is about to die after having 5 heart attacks, lung cancer, throat cancer and a stroke in the last 10 years. He gets pneumonia twice a year at least, has chronic emphysema and can no longer walk without an oxygen mask. He has smoked for the last 50 years.
It is the slowest, most painful death that I have ever seen and I now hate smoking with a passion!
I would support anything that MIGHT help lower the amount of people smoking.
I saw this add at my local supermarket and I actually took it down and put it in the bin.
I
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I am so sick of hearing that term. I read an article in the Tele about possibly banning people from feeding saltwater crocodiles on tourist tours by sticking an arm full of meat out over the water… first comment of course was some outraged chap whinging that everything fun was being banned and this was clearly the work of a nanny state. Um…
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I wish I had a nanny like Mary Poppins. I want to jump into paintings; have a spoonful of sugar and sing and dance on the ceiling!
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I grew up with nannies as my parents owned their own business and worked very long hours and weekends. I’ll never rely on nannies for my kids. I’ll be there for them while they are growing up as I don’t want working mothers guilt, or other people enjoying precious moments with them while I am at the office.
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That super nanny you mention – she is pretty amazing and she is doing an amazing job of being a Mum as well!
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I would certainly hire a nanny if I could afford one – and had a child. Certainly no judgement from me!
As for Nanny state, I balance state intervention vs individual freedoms on each case – I completely agree that the state has a role to step in and protect those that cannot protect themselves , such as children. Child welfare outweighs the rights of parents to act harmfully towards their children.
I would say though, with adults, if you are not harming anyone else and your decisions making faculties are not somehow obviously impaired (such as in consuming too much alcohol in public) the state shouldn’t intervene. But I think this is sometimes complex and agree government has the right to regulate things like gambling and smoking to protect dependents and young people. Rights and duties should be balanced in a society.
Though ever since I read the Kon-tiki Expedition in my early twenties and actually probably even before – I wanted to have at least one completely wild adventure. It is something that I have been reconnected with lately and I think I should have the freedom to do it even though it is dangerous and reckless and might possibly end in tragedy but it is something that is important to me and is connected to finding ‘worth’.
For me questions of ‘worth’ trump questions of ‘safety’ – and if other people intervened or I was prevented on the basis of it not being ‘healthy’ or ‘safe’ or ‘perhaps not particularly sane’ I would be completely miserable- is a protected/safe life necessarily more important than a worthwhile one? I don’t think so.
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we’ve had an au pair living with us for a few months while we got to grips with three children under 4 and a husband overseas most of the time. She was aMAZING. As I said to my husband on his return – if it came down to a choice between you and her…..
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Too funny! That reminds me of Charlotte’s line in SATC2. Someone suggests her husband might leave her for the (hot) nanny…. and her first thought is “what will I do without the nanny?!”
Still makes me chuckle every time I think of it….
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Holy crap, those ads are really really idiotic.
Great article Mia.
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Perhaps these ads have put the term “nanny state” into the popular vernacular – there’s a news article just today which is talking about coffee-drinkers(!) and a ‘nanny state’ FFS.
“It can’t be a nanny state. People will have to get their work-break balance right, and if they don’t, they won’t get the promotion.”
http://www.news.com.au/business/business-smarts/serial-coffee-offenders-a-productivity-problem-for-queensland-businesses/story-e6frfm9r-1226096067069#ixzz1SLHTcXAg“
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That article is ridiculous. God help anyone who comes between me and my coffee at work. I drink it at my desk and it only takes me like a minute to make. And it’s the only thing keeping me aliiiiiiiive!
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I don’t care what packaging looks like and i’m a smoker. My gripe is that for the last few years the Gov’t has prohibited strength indicators so I no longer have the choice of an alternative brand. Do you realise that smokers are the only part of the community who is not allowed to know what the drug or chemical content is? Yet everything else is covered with lists of chemicals and additives on the packs.
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That’s because those “strength indicators” were a total consumer fraud and bore no relationship whatsoever to the ampount of nicotine and tar that smokers actually inhaled. The figures were obtained from smoking machines and smokers, when smoking lower nicotine cigs, compensate hugely to get the dose of brain the nicotine receptors in their brain cry out for. The ACCC fined the companies $millions for perpetuating the fraud for years
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I know that but the taste and harshness does vary (a non-smoker would not understand) it’s like the difference between milk chocolate and dark chocolate. The contents I want mentioned are the chemical additives – why can’t they just make them with unprocessed tobacco?
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Maybe it would be a good time to quit? There’s some new smoking cessation drugs around – some people have had success with Champix (GPs can prescribe).
I met a 31 year old man a few weeks back – he smoked. He presented with a 4 week history of unsteadiness and nausea. Unfortunately he had metastatic lung cancer with a secondary deposit in his cerebellum. His life expectancy is weeks. He will leave behind a pregnant wife and a 2 year old. He wishes he had never touched a cigarette, but it’s too late for him. As it is for all the other millions.
When we see patients like him regularly, I find the discussion of the ‘taste’ of a cigarette actually quite distasteful. At least you are alive, and not yet stricken with a terminal illness.
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Mia — great column – I’ve just sent it to 7000 people working in tobacco control aroudthe world where there is immense interest in what Australia is doing. Your observations are spot on. Congratulations.
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why don’t we ban nicotine from cigarettes? no nicotine, no addiction?
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The government would never do that, they receive too much funding from the tax generated by cigarettes.
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Which is why the Government shouldn’t be telling us what to do if they continue to receive so much money from them.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Just for the record, I’m not a smoker – but for God’s sake smokers are treated like second class citizens.
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Actually, the excise revenue received is far less than the related public health costs.
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No,no,NO!!!
Please tell your Friend to STOP calling her Nanny, “the babysitter”.
I’ve been Nannying for over 15 years and there is nothing worse than being told that I’m a “babysitter”
Your 15yr old neighbor is a Babysitter.
A Nanny is completely different and calling one a babysitter is patronising and demeans the work that we do.
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I agree Mish. Babysitter is a patronising term for a professional caregiver.
I also hate it when fathers are said to be babysitting their children. Huh? No. They’re parenting. Spending time with your own child is never babysitting!
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Tell that to my ex-husband who looks after our daughter every fortnight just to avoid paying me full child support. There’s no parenting going on there- just him sitting on the couch up to his elbows in Doritos….
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I agree as well – our nanny is starting next week when i return from work and I was very clear that I wanted a “nanny” (as in a professional child care person) as opposed to a babysitter. To me, a babysitter is someone who is there while your child sleeps so you can go out to dinner while a nanny is someone who takes on the full responsibility of your child while your child is in her/his care. Not to say that babysitters aren’t responsible, but a nanny is a different class of caregiver altogether.
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This really annoys me, apart from the ads just not making sense (and the whole nanny thing is just ugh). If plain packaging won’t make a differnece to smoking rates, then why are they fighting so hard to stop it. I think they are hoping that smokers will get up in arms about their rights being taken away and try to fight the government on it. Smokers appear to be very sensitive about their rights to smoke and so I can see how calling it nanny-state legislation may work. Really it is in the best interests of them, our youth, our health system, all of us really to try to curb smoking as much as possible. I feel it is very selfish for a smoker to rail against having plain packaging. Will it make a difference to your smoking? If not then why complain about it. If it does, then lets celebrate that fact.
I can’t be sensitive on this topic. I am a strong anti-smoking campaigner. As a health professional I have seen first hand the impact that smoking has on people’s lives – often in ways you wouldn’t think (I had a client once I had to councel as she only had enough money for her necessary prescription medication or a packet of fags. She chose the fags. Bad bad place to be in). I can tell you some real horror stories. So in my view, any steps that can be taken to reduce the smoking rate to a point where eventually it can banned altogether is a good thing. And if this legislations makes just one person stop smoking or avoid them starting in the first place, then it is worth it.
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The second one doesn’t even make sense. “Just give me some money.” Erm, why is she asking for money? Did I miss something?
Maybe I’m being a bit vague today?
Or maybe they’re just terrible ads.
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I don’t get that one either. Terrible ads.
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It’s a tax reference. Still a terrible ad though!
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Some of just want the government to leave us to our choices and stop justifying their overpaid salaries with big brother rules.
Nanny state is perfectly apt when you talk about treating adults like children.
Next salt and sugar, later violent movies and alcohol.
Frankly, it doesn’t matter what you believe, you don’t have the right to interfere with two adults making adult choices be it homosexuality, drugs, trade etc.
If we are not careful and diligent 1984 will happen in 2000 and something
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Hey Free Human Being, I’m curious. What are your thoughts on speed limits? Pool fences? Fire restrictions? More signs of ‘nanny state?’
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No problems, thank you for asking and not trying to make a rhetorical point.
Speed limits = Public property = the law of the land
Fire restrictions on public = same as above.
Pool fences = Don’t tell me to spend money and fence a pool when I live 50 kms from the nearest town, have an existing yard fence and you don’t friggin fence the god damn OCEAN>>>>
I have no problem with public rules in public, but I will ethically and moral refuse to obey any rule that tells me what to do with my body on my property on my time.
Thank you for asking
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That’s fine, so long as you and everyone else who opposes government regulations, are willing to take full personal responsibility for the consequences.
You cannot expect the govt to continue to provide free health care to people who go around trashing their bodies and then expect thousands (sometimes millions) spent on their hospital stays.
Every second patient in hospital is a smoker. Virtually every known disease is caused or made worse (via delayed healing/recovery) by smoking. This accounts for billions of dollars. Alcoholics, drug addicts and the obese with type 2 diabetes are also heavily over-represented in hospitals. I doubt if any of them could pay their own massive health care bills. I, personally dont wish to subsidise people who spend their lives making poor choices in the name of ‘free will’.
It’s strange how people who get lost whilst bushwalking, often face muttering about how they should pay for their rescue. If we try to do the same to smokers, it’s discrimination. And when the govt finally steps in and tries to wrench power away from the genocidal, greedy, ruthless people who peddle death sticks, everyone complains.
I do not think you have the right to abuse your body, from either a personal or societal view. If you do willingly choose to when informed of the risks, then you should not expect society to come to your rescue.
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I agree with every letter of every word you wrote other than everyone needs to agree.
I don’t need others to agree for my rights to be 100% property of myself.
Don’t abuse your body and expect other hardworking tax payers to pay your way, I’d extend that to almost all circumstances
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Yes it would be nice if we were all able to be personally responsible, but it is very clear that most people would not be willing to take on that responsibility, nor would they be able to pay for the damage.
So, individual responsibility may work for you or me; but it’s not going to work for the uneducated, narcissistic/entitled or just idiotic sector of the community. Unfortunately that sector is very large. If all these people were forced to pay their medical bills for self inflicted conditions, then there would be a lot of bankruptcy and misery followed by a very rapid natural selection. That would be difficult to justify, hence my point that from a societal point of view – we DO need regulations on harmful substances/practices, even if from an individual perspective they are not necessary.
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Ever 2nd patient hey? Care to back that up?
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It was from a hospital audit a few yrs back in ACT. However, it has been backed up by multiple other audits, and is higher in countries with higher smoking rates. If you keep in mind that the smoking rate is between 20-30%, then its hardly surprising. They make up the vast majority of respiratory patients, many of the cardiology patients, many of the stroke patients and are obviously in high numbers on the oncology ward. I cant reference everything i write (or i’d never have time to write anything) but i only comment if it is a topic in which i have knowledge
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Plain packaging is designed to stop encouraging new smokers start smoking…i.e. children…so plain packaging isn’t treating adults like children…it’s treating children like children…
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By extension of that logic we could stop allowing the sale of plastic toy guns because seeing them and holding them encourages children to buy guns (su) and therefor shoot people.
Smoking is a health damaging activity, I have no problem with factions educating kids, but kids need to learn a valuable lesson that there are adult things and children things.
Should we not educate kids on sex for fear they will immediately start experimenting?
A wiser person than myself once stated that ignorance was the enemy of education. If we ban, censor and seize educating and rely on governments to take the place of responsible adults, then we fail as a civilized society.
…and placing plain packaging on an adult product is treating adults like children when you take away adult responsibility and reinforce by the dictum of the least honorable people in the country…politicians.
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Glad to see you on this forum, you could not have expressed my opinion better
… I also made the point about 1984 earlier in this thread.
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You’re comparing smoking with sex?
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You’re asking a question?!?”|\
Yep, I am.
It’s called an analogy and you don’t need to find it analogous to get the gist
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It helps when analogies are actually analogous.
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Who nannies for the nanny on return to work…
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Smoking aside (as any campaign against smoking is fine by me, and anyway, this campaign is clearly driven by other agenda’s), HOWEVER, I do believe we are becoming over ‘mothered’ for want of a better term. There has to be a balance here, why should i have to be told what to do at every turn, controlled, contained, policed, just in case some halfwit is not smart enough to exercise some common sense and self preservation.
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I think the nanny-state ad is hilarious. We’ve had a number of nannies look after our kids – one looked like Barbie, the others looked like … well, regular, nice girls …. not The Freak. And the ad doesn’t make sense. If plain packaging won’t work, what is the tobacco industry so worked up about? It’s (pardon the irony) a last-gasp attempt at preventing legislation that will cost them money and save people’s lives. Of course, the ad-person in me says that we should go the whole hog and just ban the sale of tobacco products (if you can sell stuff legally, I think you should be able to advertise it). But these days I’m more parent than ad-person so I’ll take what I can get.
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Kate as someone who worked in advertising do you think it is possible that the reason the tobacco companies are worked up is because it doesn’t allow brand differentiation rather than the fact that it might decrease overall tobacco sales?
With plain packaging it would seem to me that people may be less attracted to the more expensive, ‘trendier’ brands such as Stuyvesant (that you *have* to smoke if you are drinking in public in Melbourne!) – because they all become a bit more ‘generic’.
So the tobacco companies would then stand to lose profit – because people might buy cheaper cigarettes and perhaps not more expensive brands or *their* brand, without actually affecting smoking rates.
I think in some demographics it may work – though I’m in the camp though that worries that it might make them more appealing or at least not present much of a deterrent to the demographic that is actually the predominant population of smokers.
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I don’t even know how to pronounce Stuyvesant. Lucky I’m not a smoker!,
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Yes, we are a lot more literate and articulate bunch in Melbourne –
No really, no-one else knows how to pronounce them either, that’s why everyone calls them Styvies.
I’ve unfortunately had my times with cigarettes in the past though I am not smoking now – well everyone needs to have had at least one vice so other people like and trust them.
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It is just Stu-vesant. Don’t pronounce the Y. (yes my Dad is a smoker)
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First I’ve heard of that pronunciation. We always pronounced it Sty-ves-sant ..that’s how they were advertised back in the day when cigarette advertising was allowed on tv… Peter Stuyvesants anyone?
Smoking is legal, it has warnings on the packs already. You won’t stop people by taking away the pretty colours. It’s the brandishing of the lit cig that’s the “cool” factor. Perhaps TPTB could make the smoke smell like a fart..that would probably have an effect.
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You’re right. Branding is everything to marketers. We have relationships with brands, not products. Otherwise why would White Wings bother selling flour? We’d all buy Home Brand, because it’s cheaper. There’s a perception that one is better than another, even though deep down we know it’s not. Packaging design carries status. Remove the status and why bother paying a premium? But it’s only one part of the puzzle. No one ever says they quit smoking because of an ad. Or the lack of ads. Or social pressure. It’s the combined effect of many factors over a long period. No organisation should accept all credit, or blame.
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Stuyvesants are trendy now? My how the wheel (of death) turns. Back in the day when I was foolish enough to smoke win fields were cool. Lucky I don’t care anymore.
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I think the tobacco companies are worried that people will switch to cheaper brands, or cheaper packs from the same brand. I highly doubt plain packaging will make anyone quit or stop anyone from starting up, but it will have an effect on brand loyalty.
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I don’t care about plain packaging one way or another – if people want to buy cigarette’s, they are going to anyway (besides, you can’t see cigarette packaging any more unless you are purchasing said cigarette’s as they are covered). Is it really imperative that the Australian Govt spends millions on this plain packaging legislation? Aren’t there better areas where we could spend our money? Smokers will smoke if they want to.
Also – I hate how they paint nannies in those ad’s! I’ve never met a nanny that is even remotely like the woman in those ad’s.
P.S. Don’t you just love that Julie Andrews is Mary Poppins AND Maria
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The idea is that with plain wrappers, branded packs can’t become a kind of status symbol for teenagers to adopt. Often the styling of the packs is designed specifically to attract teenagers and young people to use cigarettes.
So, people will still buy cigarettes, and the plain packaging isn’t about existing smokers so much. Rather the plain packaging is designed to reduce the numbers of teenagers who take it up.
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I get that – but the packaging is currently covered with pictures of smoking-related-diseases and I don’t know about you, but there is nothing appealing about that.
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Bottom line is, the tobacco industry wouldn’t be putting hard money into campaigning against plain packaging if they thought it wasn’t going to work… Clearly they’re scared. They’re petrified.
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I believe their fear is more about brand loyalty. Plain packaging will result in smokers being more willing to smoke cheaper brands.
If pictures of gangrene and chopped up lungs didn’t put new smokers off, I don’t see plain packaging having much of an effect.
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The term nanny-state has been around for a long time, since 1965 says our friend wikipedia (yes, I realise that wiki isn’t a credible source), describing nanny state as a term used to describe, pejoratively, a perceived governmental state of protectionism, economic interventionism, or regulatory policies (of economic, social or other nature).
Plain packaging is like being told what to do by someone who has no authority to do so. We’re adults, we can make up our own minds. Representation of smoking, the rebelliousness of smoking taken up by teens will, in my opinion, always exist. PLain packaging or not. Put the money spent on this campaign on more education. If the government wants to reduce smoking then make it illegal. Not this half-assed attempt of “smoking is bad”. Smoking is addictive, smokers are still going to smoke whether it’s labelled or not.
I thought the ads accurately describe nanny state and the argument that it doesn’t portray real nannies sounds a little precious to me.It’s not supposed to! Semiotics anyone?
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I can’t help thinking these ads are missing the primary target, anyway. How many teenagers who are already getting their cigarettes via friends, etc are going to take in the concept of a nanny state, especially via the print media? The point being, they don’t care what’s on the outside of the packet.
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I do not smoke and do not care about smokers health , because frankly they know what the dangers are and it is up to them if they want to risk it. Why should we look after them ? nothing will stop someone from smoking. Smokers know the dangers and they still smoke.Lets focus on something more worthwhile . It is a waste of money .
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But you really should care since smokers, with smoking related diseases, make up a large percentage of the health system. Therefore your non smoking tax dollars are paying for their cancer treatments, their oxygen tanks when the develop lung disease, their rehabilitation once they lose a leg to gangrene etc etc etc.
Personally I would like to see my dollars spent in prevention of people taking up smoking and assisting them to quit than in the management of their (eventual) diseases.
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How many MP’s have actually received a letter about the plain packaging legislation? Somehow I don’t think they’re being deluged. How about the tobacco companies donate their legal & advertising fees to cancer research charities? Won’t hold my breath on that happening.
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I thought this is a bit of an odd post, but then I realised the tobacco industry’s version of the old idea of the nanny state really is quite different from the old vision of the nanny state as being caring and sharing and the government tending to our every need as though we were children (neither are characterisations of social-democratic government that I agree with, by the way).
The thing about the campaign, though, is that I think it is really missing its mark. People don’t feel so put upon by government that they’re going to look at these ads and say, yes, exactly, I can’t blink my eyes without being told how many times it is good for me to blink. The campaign’s going nowhere fast, and most people are smart enough to realise it’s all about protecting young people (i.e. teenagers) from taking the habit up.
What I object to is the way retailers are putting the signs up on their counters – to me, this amounts to tobacco advertising, and reveals what the campaign is all about. Not our freedom to choose, but tobacco giants’ freedom to make money out of making us sick.
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Thanks for sticking up for professional nannies who provide safe, loving and quality childcare to many Australian children. The rising cost of day care means that for many families nannies are a real option. Our government refuses to fund most families using nannies and this is unfair and inequitable. Families can get funding when the chilkdren are at another persons home (Family Day Care) but not in their own home.
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Why should the government be funding your childcare?
I’m so over people whingeing about the government not providing them with enough. I get that it’s expensive, but the government does not OWE you anything.
Everybody seems to have this sense of entitlement these days, that is really counter-productive.
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I think the point being that other kinds of child care are subsidised by the government. They do this for all sorts of social and economic reasons, if those reasons exist in a household that decides the best care would be provided in their own home ( or because there IS no other option. Child care places have enormous waiting lists) why should one type be subsidised and another not? I don’t expect the government to pay for my child, but as we as a society need parents to work and contribute to the economy and be tax paying citizens then child care needs to be affordable and viable option…
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I agree with you generally that people need to harden up and stop expecting the government to support them in every way. Especially the people who use ED as a GP, spend their centrelink money on smoking and iphones instead of daily living expenses, and generally feel entitled to everything despite them contributing nothing. (I’m talking generally here, nothing at all to do with your comment Susiepat!)
However while the government doesn’t owe us anything it could be said that we pay taxes so we should expect the government to efficiently and effectively spend that money on the services we each need most. Sadly our government is royally stuffing up many, many branches of our public services (QLD Health pay roll issues anyone? Great example of government cluserf#ck).
Sigh. If I were in charge of the world..
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If you were in charge of the world, I doubt anything of much significance or mutual agreement would occur. Not because individuals do not have opinions and beliefs, but more so because idealism just doesn’t cut it. And although you believe your opinion is the right one, there is another person out there who thinks their’s is. Regardless of how similar your opinions are, you will spend copious amounts of time arguing about these nuances, and less time actually compromising to get on with the job. I do believe everyone needs to have beliefs and should express these. But when it comes to running a country, it is counterproductive to get caught up in the nuances that create grey areas. Which is exactly how we have had almost a year since the election and seemingly very little of worth done due to constant media coverage on the decision making process rather than actual policy change.
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Less bureaucracy and red tape and meetings and committees and trying to please everyone to get re-elected, and more time spent figuring out what needs to happen and making it happen. Only ineffective people spend more time arguing about the solution than actively solving the problem. Obviously one person can’t change the entire system of a country in a day, but I don’t agree with you that nothing of significance would change if one ‘idealistic’ person were to be in a position of power. One person with the right set of skills and right ideals (eg justice, hard work, equality, etc) and drive CAN make a significant difference in the world. Look at the history books.. revolutions are started, dictatorships are torn down, inequality is triumphed from ONE person deciding that change needs to happen, taking action, and then causing a chain reaction of people who collectively make a change.
As far as my example with the QLD Health payroll problem.. it’s not rocket science. They chose to use a payroll system that was not correct for their use, they have made mistake after mistake since this time trying to cover up this monumental mistake, with those in power trying to cover their asses and point fingers, rather than just concentrating on finding a solution and implementing it ASAP.
There are differences of opinions, then there is just plain common sense, efficiency, research, and basing decisions on evidence, not a fear of pissing someone else off and compromising your popularity (and wage).
I really believe there is a simple answer to a lot of the major problems. Have you SEEN question time in parliament? It’s like a fucking school yard for adults, nothing much seems to get accomplished except a lot of yelling and insult flinging. Call me crazy but I think if I, and everyone I know, can manage to function in my job (which is health care.. high pressure situations.. massive responsibility and consequences if you make the wrong choice) without screaming at each and acting like a five year old and wasting time with endlessly talking about decisions with poorly researched, ineffective outcomes, then the government employees can as well.
I’m not suggesting I’m the person for this job, but I don’t agree with you that nobody can do a better job. If I’m an idealist then you’re a cynic!
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I think the word you’re looking for is realist. I know history, but none of the events you generally allude to have happened overnight. I long for a government like Whitlam’s. who got in and stuck to their/his convictions, no matter what anyone else thought. I think your point about the QLD health payroll is a naive one. Politicians etc do not admit to mistakes easily, because the subsequent media coverage will then cover the ‘lies’ or mistakes and not what has actually changed for the better.
Also, in those places where one person seemingly did make a difference (South Africa comes to mind), things were bad. In Australia, we have it pretty good. We do not have the impetus, and nor do our politicians, to offer us the best they can. Look at the carbon tax. Something we need to do but because it costs us a bit, we collectively whinge. The problem is we’ve gotten too used to getting what we want and forgetting how good we actually have it.
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Emma I understand what you’re saying here but I’m not sure I follow you about the pay roll thing. My point is that the reason it’s dragged out for so long is because politicians will cover their ass first, then worry about actually fixing their mistakes second. And that the people overseeing the whole process are clearly ineffective and unable to organize anything remotely useful. If there was someone who didn’t care what the media said, and just got stuck in and fixed it, that would make a massive positive difference to thousands of people.
I think we’re arguing the same point here..
governments need to spend less time fucking around with media and arguing with each other, and more time making things happen and basing their decisions on logic and evidence. And consulting the people who their policies are actually going to effect, or the people who actually know what’s going on, rather than their peers who sit in an office and have no idea.
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I really object to the nanny-state accusation. As Mia rightly points out, it is just another way of shutting down debate in the most dismissive and patronising way.
What really annoys me, though, is that it implies government regulation is the only thing that interferes with or constrains our lives. It neatly glosses over the far more insidious influence of marketing, media, pop culture, addiction and a plethora of vested interests. You might not agree with everything government does, but at least they are, ultimately, accountable to the electorate.
I’m all for personal responsibility, but we also have to acknowledge the completely unequal distribution of wealth, power and opportunity across society. “Every man for himself” is inadequate because we are not just a collection of individuals. We live in a community, and as such we need to take responsibility for community standards. Democratically elected government may not be the perfect way of doing that but its the closest we have. And I’ll take it over tobacco companies any day.
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Those ads make me so cross. How could people really not see that it is just about money for the tobacco industry? Yes, the state wants you to stop smoking. It also wants young people not to start. Why? Because lung cancer is one of the biggest killers in Australia, smoking accounts for the biggest amount of disability and it costs us a lot of money. And, (and!) it’s completely preventable. The government is not taking away your right to buy cigarettes, just the cigarette companies ability to advertise to the next generation. It seems to me it is the cigarette companies treating people like they are children (how low is the ad pitched?), rather than the ‘nanny’ state who is still letting you decide while trying to make it harder for kids to start.
Rant over….
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That’s the thing though – the state doesn’t want you to stop smoking – if it was really bothered about people not smoking, about protecting people’s health then it would just ban smoking all together, making smoking and cigarettes illegal and be done with it but they won’t because they would lose a massive amount of money.
So they do the next best thing and look like they are really encouraging people to stop smoking while actually not doing so, that way they look like they care but still get to fill their coffers with money from people smoking.
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And where do you think this money from people smoking goes? Perhaps torwards the rather large burden that smoking places on the health system?
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Banning things has almost never worked. Prohibition did not stop people drinking. Criminalising abortion did not stop people getting abortions. Illicit drugs are widely available if you want to find them. Legislate and regulate is a far more effective way of managing the damage we often do to ourselves in the pursuit of a good time.
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It’s been my experience that the people who are most likely to complain about ‘nanny state’ legislation are those who know they should be doing better, but simply don’t want to. It’s embarrassing to have your silly behaviour officially verified as such, and subsequently labeled ‘criminal’.
Take child restraints. Before the new laws were enacted, most of my friends didn’t use proper child restraints because they either didn’t want to pay for the safer (more expensive) child seats, or because they didn’t want to ‘make’ their kids wear them. So you’d have 3 year olds sitting in the front of the car, or sitting in foam moulded seats with a yawning gap between their body and the seatbelt.
Every so often I’d quietly mention to my friends that it was unsafe and they’d say “oh it’s okay, we’re only going round the corner” or “yeh, he won’t sit in a proper restraint because they’re too tight” or any other number of excuses.
So when the new laws came out there was much eye rolling and Hmmmphh-ing but they all complied. And I sleep better at night.
I totally agree, Mia. The ‘nanny state’ laws are a wonderful luxury in our developed nation. Simply put, they save lives.
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