Raised Catholic, I personally never understood – really understood – why Catholic priests had to agree not to touch someone in order to express their faith. The congregation doesn’t. The Bible loves families! It tells folk to go forth and procreate.
You need to engage in a little rumpy pumpy to do that. A spring-coil regatta.
And trying to make someone avoid sex forever is like trying to teach a cat to ride a unicycle.
It’s not natural and makes about as much sense.
This week the Catholic Church got angsty with one of its priests – Father Kevin Lee – because he had the temerity to fall in love and marry his wife in a secret Philippines ceremony last year. Now he has been sacked, as Fairfax reported:
”I’ve fallen in love and I’ve got married and it’s outside of most people’s awareness,” he said. ”But I’m sure people within the church could have had a suspicion.”
He said his public admission was motivated by the fact that many priests led a double life. ”I think celibacy has to go,” he said.
The head of the Diocese of Parramatta, Anthony Fisher OP, denied Father Lee’s claims that most priests lived double lives and that the church knew about the priest’s marriage.
”As Father Kevin is aware, by his actions he can no longer operate as a priest and as a result I will immediately be appointing an administrator to Padre Pio parish,” Bishop Fisher said in a statement.
Father Lee said he expected his family would be ”deeply disappointed about these revelations”.
The Catholic Church says that under canon law priests are not allowed to marry and must remain celibate for life.”
Well. That’s marginally better than the call in the actual Bible for Godly scholars to be eunuchs, I suppose.
Let’s be clear. Celibacy as a religious function isn’t just about the Roman Catholic Church. It happens in Buddhism and Hinduism too, among other religions. But the poor old Catholic priests are the most high profile of the lot, rightly or wrongly.
They’re told they must live devoid of sex and romantic relationships. Talk about bridling the most essential and pleasurable of human emotions and actions. It seems to be a par for the course of many of the world’s religions to stop humans being … human.
Some commentators have asked whether celibacy causes paedophilia. There’s no denying the apparent over-representation of child molesters in Church ranks. Not everyone is, but there has been scandal after scandal after scandal right across the world.
Why? Ask theology commentator Dick Gross:
“The Canadian psychiatrist, Professor Wendell Watters, has linked these sexual prohibitions to undermining contentment and sexual health in his book, Deadly Doctrine. He argues the evidence is that faiths promote sexual ignorance, guilt and suffering.
… it could be that more paedophiles are attracted to being priests than other vocations rather than celibacy manufacturing paedophiles out of men who entered priesthood with more normal sexual appetites. One can only speculate for there is no evidence either way. But clearly, celibacy has not come out well of the whole paedophile disaster.”
Celibacy might not cause anything. But the surface link has long been made in punter’s minds.
Our minds and bodies were clearly meant to do something else apart from pretending sex and human relationships don’t exist. Why keep that in a bottle?
Human beings might have invented the zoo with Noah’s Ark, but we’ve been putting ourselves in cages for a lot longer.
Could you be abandon romantic relationships and be celibate if you had to? What do you think about celibacy?







Comments
116 Comments so far
Ok why is no-one even bothering to put a bit of scrutiny on Kevin Lee’s story of his celibate “oppression”?
How about going to ask the other 10,000 priests how they feel?
Kevin Lee was so faithful to his flock that he didn’t even bother to mention it directly to us, but rather went to the media. We feel betrayed by him.
Lastly, in all the time KL was celibate was he attracted to children?
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There are so many crazy zealots out numbering the comments! Get a clue – you can be entirely dedicated to your life’s work without being celibate. Crazy idiots.
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It is possible to live a comfortable celibate life. The other more key factor that’s missing in all of these discussions is that living without any form of (appropriate) human touch is not healthy. In fact there is a condition called ‘skin hunger’ where a person may crave simple touch – such as a hug. I postulate that many of those who engage in inappropriate sexual conduct may be misusing and misinterpreting these needs, and expressing them is ways that are very wrong.
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Maybe I am way too late to add my 10 cents’ worth but I would just like the right of reply if I may? Wow! Such animosity from people calling themselves Catholic! I suspect the one who claims to know so much about my family is actually a family member who is pretending to be an outraged Catholic teacher. Also others who purport to know me whilst being too cowardly to identify themselves probably dont know me at all. They must have searched for this obscure comment (sorry Rick but I only found this way down on google whilst looking for another article!). But hey, those who claim statistically that pedophiles are less represented in the Catholic church, whose statistics are you using? Who knows how many there are? They are secretly moved & hidden by church authorities not entered in the Government census! I have met far too many in my brief 20 years of ministry and in my own diocese! Sure I had nearly 7 years to prepare but going to Uni to learn to be an accountant has no bearing on what being an accountant is going to actually be like, no less than 7 years in a seminary prepares you for the isolated and often traumatic life of priesthood! Priests are also in the unique position of being given a job for life. No reviews, no scrutiny, no accountability! I would never leave my kids alone with any of the sexually repressed or disturbed men I have shared presbyteries with. You have no idea if you have not lived with them. I did not get caught out being married, I did it deliberately to show how many others are getting away with living with their housekeepers, parish workers, gay lovers, or otherwise and will never get found out becos the church needs men to at least look celibate for the Mass to be available to such large numbers of worshippers who are flocking to your otherwise booming parishes.
Thank you Rick for opening the conversation, but the conclusion will never be adequate until Catholics take their heads out of the sand and see the unrealistic expectation of celibacy is starving the church of normal looking & normal sounding ministers and opening up perfect opportunities for pedophiles and sexual deviates who pretend to be what you expect them to be!
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The Catholic church views both marriage and religious life as vocations, equal but distinctly different. A Priest could not fulfil all that is required of a priestly vocation if he was married. Marriage requires a full commitment just as being a priest does. Being a priest is not a job.. not even a full time one, it is a life commitment.
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The following statement is a lie-
“The Catholic Church says that under canon law priests are not allowed to marry and must remain celibate for life.”Marriage is only restricted for priests in the Latin Rite of Catholicism.There are other Catholic priests in the Eastern and Byzantine Rites that are permitted to marry.
As for the ridiculous assertion that marriage should be implemented for
all priests to stop paedophilia-Firstly most priests are NOT paedophiles and second having a wife will not stop a paedophile as most paedophiles are married men anyway,that hide behind the window dressing of “a family” Celibacy has no causal relation to disordered sexual desires, such as paedophilia or ephebophilia. Married men are just as likely as celibate priests to sexually abuse children. In fact psychiatrist Manfred Luetz states: “The father of a family is 36 times more likely to abuse than a celibate priest.”
Paedophiles like children… they don’t like adults. Pedophiles loose interest in their victims once they reach full maturity. People with normal sexual urges will want to have sex with adults, not children. Pedophilia is a sick condition and having sex with a consenting adult is not going to make those urges go away. Some like adults too, but mostly children. I don’t see that this is a solution.
Some people — including a few vocal dissenting Catholics — are exploiting this crisis to draw attention to their own agendas. Some are demanding a married Catholic clergy in response to the scandal, as if marriage would make men stop hurting children. This flies in the face of the aforementioned statistic that sexually active and married men are more likely to abuse children as celibate priests.
Statistics about the prevalence of sexual abuse show that perpetrators can be broken down into:
Family friends and acquaintances: 28%
Relatives (uncles and cousins): 18%
Stepfathers: 12 %
Male siblings: 10%
Biological fathers: 10%
Boyfriends of the child’s mother: 9%
Grandfathers and stepgrandfathers: 7%
Strangers: 4%
Source: Wade F. Horn, clinical psychologist, reporting on research done at the John Hopkins University of Public Health, 2001.
“Since neither being Catholic nor being celibate predisposes a person to develop pedophilia, a married clergy wouldn’t solve the problem” (“Doctors call for pedophilia research,” The Hartford Currant, March 23).
One has only to look at similar crises in other denominations and professions to see this.
THE PLAIN FACT IS HEALTHY HETEROSEXUAL MEN HAVE NEVER BEEN KNOWN TO DEVELOP EROTIC ATTRACTION TO CHILDREN AS A RESULT OF ABSTINENCE.
In fact it is shocking and disrespectful to men to think they are capable of such moral degradation for lack of sex!Men deserve a little more respect than that!
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I have known this priest for many years and he has always been a rebel. He never wanted me to call him father and we have had many discussions about aspects of the Church which he would question. He was a cool guy and great amongst young people, but he never really fit in amongst the clergy, neither liberal or conservative. He has alway been a loner in that regard.
I felt what he did was not only a big slap in the face to the Church but also to his family. He is one of 10 kids and one of his brothers is a priest. He also has 28 nieces and nephews. He warned nobody about this. I feel sorry for all of them especially his mum and dad who would be absolutely devasted. Sorry Kevin (I won’t call you father now because you are not shepherd to me) this was a selfish act.
In my lifetime I have known of several priests who have left but none have done it with such arrogance. If he felt he could not fulfill his vow (which is a promise he made to God), he could have taken leave with permission from his Bishop to sort himself out and let his family know. And then if he could not follow the Church the way he hypocritically preached to his parishoners (during the past year) on Sunday then leave quietly.
But no Kevin, could not do that. To top it off he implicated ‘most’ (his words) priests in his sins by saying that they do it too. When I go to confession I confess my sins to God, not put blame on others. And yes I am a sinner, we all are. So the other issue is that Kevin abused his position of power. He even had the gall to sit in the Catholic Church while he confessed his sins to the world. The only difference is that we ask for forgiveness in confession and you did not do this. You blamed the Catholic Church and other priests. What an insult. I am absolutely dissapointed in men like this who are meant to be leading us as ‘perona Christi’ (the person of Christ) and his humility not in arragonce and pride. This is truly NOT the work of the Holy Spirit. May God have mercy on you and the damage you started on Tuesday!!!!
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Quite right!Priests are free to leave as they please and they dont make a big song and dance about it.They move on …
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Really well said. It’s great to be able to hear from someone who has actually been affected by this man’s actions, rather than just reactions to a news story. Hopefully you guys will be blessed with a fantastic priest as a replacement who can help start to heal the hurt and division that has been caused over the last few years
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You took the words right out of my mouth! I feel exactly same way. I too know him personally. And you’re right he didn’t like being called Father. I refused to call him “Kevin” because I believed that he constantly has to be reminded he is(was) a priest – God’s special worker on Earth thus more is expected from him.
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I also know Kevin and I agree with all you say. I pray for the parish and hope to have the strength one day to pray and forgive him for the many ways he hurt me, my family and the beautiful Catholic Community I once belonged too.
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My understanding is that the church doesn’t believe in sex outside of marriage, but it also doesn’t believe in its priests being married as married life (as in wives and kids) would distract the priest from his job of being a priest. You can’t tend to your flock in the wider community if your mind and your time is on your own family.
Because they don’t believe in their priests being married, the celibacy issue if a flow on from that.
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I’m an anglican, so i don’t get the whole celibacy for priests thing. On the other hand, i have friends who are brothers or sisters religious (basically monks and nuns) and they seem very happy in their celibacy. I guess my problem is that the catholic church seems to think that families and women are less ‘holy’ than single men. I think celibacy can be a legitimate choice but it shouldn’t be a prerequisate for ministry.
I feel that God called me, female, mother, feminist, as I am. If God wanted me to be male and unmarried then she would have made me that way!
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Can you please stop referring to Christ as feminine?Even Anglican’s know that God is seen as masculine,”God the Father etc…”
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It’s not about women and families being less holy at all. It’s a recognition that each vocation is different and requires different things to fulfill its mission. Women are an important part of the church, just as men are an important part of the family.
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What you said here is just plain wrong
“I guess my problem is that the catholic church seems to think that families and women are less ‘holy’ than single men”
The Catholic Church has high regard for marriage , women and familia-ever noticed the devotion to The Blessed Mother and all our heroines of The Faith,St Rita, St Ann,ect…?
You just dont find that in other Churches besides the Catholic and Orthodox.
And since your not Catholic and the Church has never been a democracy and we have survived 2000 years asThe Original Church Jesus Christ founded,we dont need your advice.The Church has weathered every storm and will weather this one.
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Wow i stirred up a storm here! I am not referring to Christ as feminine, but I am using a female pronoun for God. god is neither male pr female, but I choose to use a feminine pronoun at times to balance the predominantly male usage.
loves2bake, you’re right, each vocation is different. i guess my frustration comes from the Catholic Church not allowing women to fulfil their vocation in ordained ministry if they feel led to do so.
anon2, Jesus did not found the Catholic Church. He founded the catholic Church, not one particular denomination. The Church has weathered many storms, you’re right, but the fact remains that fewer people are finding their faith through the anglo/catholic churches. I really believe that if we are to help give the good news we need to find a new way of doing things. Maybe that will eventually include female priests in the Catholic Church? I am not trying to give advice, just my opinion!
Thanks for sharing your views.
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Hi!
The Church does not view celibacy as a prerequisite for ministry as all lay people are called to one type of ministry or another. Nor does it view single men as more holy than others. The fact is that God gives the grace of celibacy, and it can only be explained as a grace, to the men he calls to the priesthood. A priest can’t usually serve a wife with his whole heart, as husbands are called to do, when he must be guiding his flock, being called on 24/7 by parishioners. Every vocation God calls us to allow for equal holiness.
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Your missing the point of this man’s betrayal he lied for 12 months to his parish. And they found out they a news broadcast look into his past he has never been one to live by the rules and has hurt many in his path if destruction he is not now and never was saint material. Dig deep and see how many people left his church because it was his church not Gods and his doctrine not the Catholic churches. He preaches intolerance please check out past the poor cool priest that is not what you have here.
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Well it depends on what you mean by had to! Yes, I could do it if I had to. Can’t imagine what would make me though. Certainly not an imaginary friend!
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There is an awful lot of Catholic bashing going on in the comments below. Just to point out that there is a difference between respectful disagreement about a different religion to your own and slurs and vitriol.
I sometimes feel that Catholicism is the only religion that it is acceptable to be abusive towards.
It is not very nice.
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I doubt people of islamic faith would agree with you there. Not saying it’s appropriate at all – but don’t feel like you’re (Catholics) are the only ones getting bashed. Not by a long shot….
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Thanks Emmy very true. Although more in general media havent seen much on mm. We have almost become numb to islam bashing from how common it is. Especially after 9-11. I don’t think any religion deserves a bashing. Respectfully disagree yes, even criticise if you like but judgment and mocking shouldn’t be tolerated. Stephanie use the report button maybe mm staff didn’t see the offensive content.
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No one is forced to become a priest. Catholic priests take a vow of celibacy, that is, they make a choice to live their lives that way. I think it a bit of a stretch to claim that the Church forces priests to be celebate when it is a commitment priests freely enter into.
Also I take exception to the comment:
“There’s no denying the apparent over-representation of child molesters in Church ranks.”
The use of the word apparent indicates that you don’t actually have any evidence that child molesters are over-represented (and I do appreciate that there have been many high profile cases involving the church but media attention doesn’t equal statistics). It is a terrible slander on the vast majority of good Catholics to say that without producing any factual basis (for it).
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Hi there. This priest has many things on his agenda and not for the good of the church. I was in his parish he was always a wrongun told my kids some religions were stupid coz they didn’t believe in Jesus he preached intolerance we prayed long and hard for him tried to see the good in him in the end I left in before my faith was completely lost.
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My father is an Anglican minister. I use the word “minister” instead of “priest” but he is from a high Anglican background so would describe himself as a priest. I won’t get into the interesting conversations and assumptions that occurred while I was growing up (and still do). That would be enough for a new topic of discussion. I went through a stage in my teenage years when I took great delight when I told people my father was a priest. How is that possible, they wondered? Also, if we were in public and he was wearing his “collar” (as he did back then) I would show my usual father-daughter affection towards him, and you should have seen the looks of surprise on peoples’ faces, their minds working overtime! Quite funny really.
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I can’t wait to wear my collar if/when I’m ordained! i’m getting some coloured shirts made up especially…
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Just to throw a spanner in the works: saw a story on tv a few years ago about an ex-Anglican clergyman who converted to Catholicism and was allowed to function as a priest – he was (& remained) married with children! This was, I think, in Brisbane.
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That is one of the few exceptions to the rule. I know a priest who is also married for the same reason – he was a married Anglican Minister who converted to Catholicism and became a priest.
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In regards to married priests. In the Catholic Church Anglican priests who convert to Catholocism who are already married are allowed to remain married. No Catholic priest is allowed to get married. This is a discipline and has proven to make priestly ministry far more effective.
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God no. (see what I did there?)
I’d take a hostage.
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Religious orders are a calling or a vocation. They aren’t a career choice. Priests are in the seminary for seven years, and part of the reason is that they need time to discern to make sure that this is where they are meant to be. My husband discerned whether to enter the priesthood before we got together, as did a number of my male friends and my brother. Only one of those men felt that they were called to the priesthood, the others felt that God was calling them elsewhere (lucky for me, my husband’s vocation was marriage). I don’t expect that everyone will accept the requirements of religious orders or agree with them, but I wish people would stop looking at issues like this through their own worldview and criticise it from that platform without even looking into why that expectation exists. I wonder how many people who are supporting his “protest” have even looked into what the Church has to say about this law? If you are going to disagree with something, at least know what you are disagreeing with. No-one forces a man to become a priest, but he knows what is expected of that position well before he is ordained. If he doesn’t feel that that is right for him, then there are many other ways that he can explore his faith and serve others.
One of the reasons that priests are not allowed to marry is because The Bible says a family man needs to put his family first, not the Church. Yet a priest is called to make service to his congregation his first priority. In order to do one relationship justice the other would suffer, or both would suffer. In Protestant Churches where ministers are allowed to marry, the attrition rate is much much much higher than in the Catholic Church, and in America Pentecostal Pastors (as a group) have one of the highest divorce rates. There are other reasons why this expectation is there as well.
Priests being unable to marry is canon law rather than dogma so it is possible that it may change in the future. But at the moment it isn’t on the cards. How this (now ex) priest went about challenging this law was completely inappropriate. He was disrespectful to not only the Church, but to his congregation that were entrusted to his care and to the vows that he took when he was ordained. He could have walked away from the priesthood if he felt that he was meant to marry, or moved to another denomination. All this deception and nose-thumbing at the Church is quite childish in my opinion.
I couldn’t have remained celibate my whole life, but I believe I was called to marriage. I did wait until I was married though, as did my husband who was over 30 when we finally walked down the aisle. I don’t think he or I suffered by waiting. I think it actually strengthened our relationship and continues to now.
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Beautifully and eloquently put Loves2Bake- thank you. Completely agree.
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I don’t think celibacy causes pedophilia but I think the Catholic Church has been a great place to hide & get access to children if you’re already a pedophile.
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The only reason they can’t marry is so all property etc is given to the church. If you had a family, you may leave them all of your worldy possessions and the little ol’ Catholic church would be a little bit poorer.
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I’m sorry, that is untrue. The church does not control what you do with your money, and I’m telling you the pay is not worth getting worked up about!
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Yikes, Father Kevin Lee officiated at my wedding. It’s strange when someone you know ends up in the news…especially as a ‘scandal’.
As for Priests needing to be celibate, as a Catholic I say it’s a big ask. I don’t see how they would be any less a priest if they had a wife, or indeed, a family. In fact I can see how it might actually be helpful for them to guide their flock with a bit of ‘real world’ experience.
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I also, was married in a Catholic Church by a priest who is now happily married with children (obviously no longer a priest) and living in another State. I always enjoyed his services and thought the readings and his translation were current and useful in our daily lives. Our community and the Catholic Church are certainly worse off now that he no longer holds this position.
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Father Kevin baptised my youngest – yes I agree, it was very unsettling to watch that unfold on the 6pm news……
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As someone who knows quite a few ministers, friends and relatives, who are protestant, I think being married is quite important. Their spouse supports them.
I would like it if the individual Catholic priests could choose celibacy or not, just like every other job.
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When the catholic church was founded I believe that celibacy wasn’t a requirement, but became one in the middle ages. If a ruling could be made one way, then surely it could be reversed. I agree with you, in that I think a spouse can support a priest.
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Hi Rick,
Great article as always.
Just a note: Celibacy is not a requirement for Hindu priests. In fact, having children is considered a vital part of a life devoted to God, whether you are a priest or not.
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Thanks! And no, I should have been more clearer. Just meant that it featured in those religions but not necessarily as a mandate or even a common thread.
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Oh right. In that case, I’m not sure you can compare. The priests who undertake celibacy in Hinduism do it out of choice and it is usually accompanied by a lot of other things they are denying themselves–they live on very little food and water as well etc. They are less priests and more hermits looking for nirvana I think?
The way it’s currently phrased sounds like it’s part of the religion rather than an individual’s choice, because your suggesting that it’s similar to Christianity, where it IS enforced
Sorry–essay!
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not enforced in Christianity at large, just Catholisism, I’d like to point out
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Slightly off-topic, but my dad just told me this joke;
A man woke up in a Catholic hospital after having had open heart surgery. A nun was standing next to him, and she asked him.
“Do you have health insurance?”
“No”
“Do you have any money to pay for this?”
“No”
“Do you have any relatives?”
“I have one spinster sister. She’s a nun and has no money.”
At this, the nun was furious. She said “Nuns are NOT spinsters. We are married to God”
The man paused.
“Oh, well, send the bill to my brother-in-law then.”
Sorry, but it made me giggle!
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I totally agree with Rick and everything he says in this article. I also think some people are misinterpreting his message. Some people feel this is a personal attack on celibacy and that he is saying that it is impossible be celibate. I think he is more commenting on FORCED celibacy which is a totally different issue to those people that are celibate by choice.
I know people who have been celibate all their lives or for very long periods of time, but the difference is, it was by CHOICE. Some people are asexual or have a low sex drive and have no interest in sexual relationships. There is nothing wrong with that at all. LIkewise, some people are not asexual but they choose to be celibate for a particular reason whether that is religious reasons, or some other personal choice. Nothing wrong with that either.
The fact of the matter is that a high proportion of priests (like anyone else really) are NOT asexual and it’s unnatural for them. As many of these comments show, many of them break the rules and are sexually active anyway. I think the rules should be re-considered as they seem out-dateda nd ridiculous to me. Yes, priests are aware before they enter the priesthood that they must be celibate, but that doesn’t mean the rule is a good one.
As for whether celibacy causes child molestation, I don’t agree with this either. I think maybe people who are paedophiles are more likely to be attracted to certain professions that involve children. there are paedophiles in all walks of life but catholic priests just seem to make the news a lot more.
Anyway, just my two cents worth, feel free to disagre! Thanks for the article, Rick!
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Hmmmmm, good point, but becoming a priest is also a choice. Not exactly forced, and it’s not like they don’t know what it entails when they sign up.
Agree the rules should be re-considered though.
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But even if they do know what it entails when they sign up and think at the time they can do it, what if they discover that celibacy isn’t for them after all, but they really enjoy the job of being a priest? It seems a pity that they would have to choose.
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A priest has up to 7 years training in most dioceses in Australia, during which they live the lifestyles and ideals of the priesthood. And don’t have to stay if they feel its not for them.
I think that’s plenty of time to think it over
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Wow well that is quite some time. I had no idea it was so long.
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Celibacy is not enforced ! In other Catholic Rites priests can marry…why is that so hard for people to comprehend?If you are called to vocation in the Latin Rite you CHOOSE CELIBACY.If you cant be celibate -you leave and take on the vocation of married life.What you dont do is stay on for a year, draw a pay-check, lie to your parishioners and mislead your wife.
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I don’t think the church should be making the call on celibacy, it should be what the individual thinks they are being called to by God.
In 1 Corinthians 7 Paul says to the unmarried and widows that it is good to stay unmarried “but if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.” I think the Catholic church has missed that verse.
A family member of mine went to a protestant theological college where marriage was actually encouraged, as so much emotional support is needed in such a demanding role.
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But remember, the great thing about the bible is there is always a contradictory verse to support the opposite opinion.
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In this case I don’t think there is anything supporting it.
And when there is a contradictory text it is usually because one of them is taken out of context.
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As a Christian, I think forced celibacy is a shame. The bible acknowledges that most men and women aren’t cut out for it (“Let each man have his own wife, and each woman her own husband”), and most of the apostles and teachers of the early church were married at some point.
As far as I’m aware, most Christian’s and most churches are fine with having their pastors and bible teachers married.
That said, celibacy is not “unnatural” imo. My sister and many of my close friends remained celibate until they married. I am a virgin and will be until I marry. It’s a choice, and occasionally it is tough, but that doesn’t make it unnatural imo.
I would love to see priests being allowed to marry. There are some married men in the catholic church would likely make wonderful priests!
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I clicked on this link because I thought, for once, it might be a sensitive article about people who choose to stay celibate until they are married.
I was wrong.
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I have a friend who did that. Respect. But it was his choice, so different topic altogether!
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I read it as a ‘celibate for life’ discussion? i don’t think anyone is talking about celibate until marriage unless i’ve missed something..
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I think its great that Rick always responds to so many comments on his pieces whether they be negative or positive. I enjoy reading his replies as much as I do his column.
Keep up the amazing work Rick.I always get a little excitement buzz when I see your articles pop up on the site.
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The debate that follows is my favourite part (because I am a super nerd and easily thrilled). But thank you!
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I watched Mia and Georgie talk about this on the Today show yesterday. It was interesting that Georgie made the comment about how her church, and most other churches are only full of old people and the number of worshippers at most churches are getting smaller.
That is true of many chruches. I have been to friends kids christenings at local protestant churches in my area and apart from the people there for the christening there have been a very small number of older people there. However, I am Catholic and when we attend Catholic churches for mass at our local or baptisms for our friends kids at Catholic churches all over Sydney its often standing room only and there are young families everywhere. Yes the Catholic church does have many flaws but they are clearly doing something differently and better than the others because they still have lots of people from all age groups attending.
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In my experience the protestant Christian community in Sydney has a very active and thriving youth and young adult component – there are definitely still loads of people from all age groups! I find it very exciting actually.
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My Catholic Church is thriving with young people too! Georgie and Mia’s comments were so out of line and uninformed.
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I always find it interesting when people talk about “so many paedophile priests” – it’s pretty clear you haven’t looked at the numbers. There aren’t actually that many of them. You haven’t looked at the numbers, very obviously.
FAR FAR less of a percentage of paedophiles among priests than among the general population – I mean, there should be NO paedophiles among priests, I get that, and the Catholic church has handled the situation REALLY badly, but it’s more of a case of a few priests who molested a lot of children rather than a lot of priests molesting a lot of children. Right?
I think the numbers support the hypothesis that paedophiles are attracted to the priesthood rather than the priesthood creating paedophiles. It makes sense that paedophiles and paederasts would be naturally attracted to jobs which give them power over people, like teachers… and there are few jobs around where you have more power over a greater part of peoples lives (whether that’s right or wrong…) than a priest.
Don’t get me wrong. I don’t really want to defend the Catholic church. I’m a very strong Protestant. I think there are a lot of things very wrong with the Catholic church and its dogma.
But as to whether celibacy is natural or unnatural? I know quite a few people who have remained celibate all their lives. For some, it IS a struggle, for others it isn’t.
I would have thought someone like you, Rick, would have been aware that there are a number of people out there who are asexual. There are also a lot of people who don’t see sex as the driving force in their lives and can take it or leave it.
And you can’t discount the element of faith. Faith is a very powerful thing – and you don’t have to take my word for it. There are plenty of independent and unbiased studies on the power of faith.
If someone feels they have a true calling on their life to celibacy, as long as they have faith in that calling, they can do it without too much hardship.
Of course, you’d THINK that part of becoming a priest in the Catholic church would be believing in celibacy. They do kind of have a “check your sexuality at the door” policy.
IMHO – Father Kevin Lee should convert to High Anglicanism
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All good points. Though I’m not talking about people who choose to remain celibate. Good for them! It’s about people who wouldn’t have been celibate otherwise but who are made to as part of joining a religion in a position of authority.
I used the term ‘apparent over-representation’ deliberately. None of the studies I read agree on precise numbers, though seem to agree the percentage of paedophile priests versus general priest population and paedophiles in rest of society versus general society are at least on par, if not slightly worse among church ranks (as a per capita type measure). But we pay the former more heed because of the types of vows those priests take … and how thoroughly they break them in the act of molestation.
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No-one is forced to take those vows – they enter the Church of their own volition, hence they choose this life style.
In speaking to Priests I know quite well, not being allowed to marry is as much about practicality as more traditional reasons. The avg income of a Catholic priest is less than $30,000. Not really enough to raise a family on.
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Who said they would have to be a 1 income family?
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Would you leave your child alone with a Catholic priest? Me? Not on your LIFE!
I personally think that the percentage of child molesters in the Church would be much higher than the general public. I wouldnt go so far to say that the majority are, but it would be plenty. There are no accurate studies because almost all cases are covered up.
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Would I leave my child alone with anyone that I did not know extremely well? Whether it be teacher, friend, in-law, doctor, priest…who ever? Not on your life. I don’t think being a priest would make me any less or more likely to leave my child alone with them. The occupation of the person is irrelevant.
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I’m part of the Baptist church (Baptist Union of WA) which has really REALLY strict rules, guidelines and a full on education program called “Safe Church” – which is not just about sexual and personal issues but also general health and safety within the church community.
I do think these two above comments are interesting – especially considering the majority of child abuse cases involve someone the child knows really well, rather than a stranger.
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Perhaps over sensitive, but I find myself bristling a little on Rick’s behalf at the sentence “I would have thought someone like you, Rick, would have been aware that there are a number of people out there who are asexual”. Someone like you? As in sexual preference ticking the ‘other’ box?
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It had far less to do with Rick’s sexual orientation than his political and social beliefs.
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I know. I’m fully aware of asexuality … but I don’t for a second believe everyone in the Catholic Church priesthood is asexual!
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Not everyone…
but asexuality can be something you condition yourself to as much as an organic thing (is organic the right word?? I was struggling to find one…)
Perhaps if the Catholic church is serious about celibacy they need to provide more directed counselling at the seminaries to help the priests condition themselves to the celibacy rather than just expecting it.
(although I don’t really know what happens at Catholic seminaries… maybe they do have some kind of program.)
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You are right Rick, the typology of the priest is to take on the Spousal role in love and service to The Bride -which is the Church
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I’ve always thought that priests and nuns should marry each other, producing little priests and little nuns to carry on the family business.
It would just make sense.
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I love it when I agree with you Bradley
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Hah!
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As a child, I asked my parents why they didn’t do that.
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From my brief history of religious history studies at uni (which translates as: correct me if I’m wrong) but I understand that the church (in many faiths) didn’t approve of marriage at all, as it was thought to distract from the noble path of the call to God. It wasn’t until the 16th century that the church decided to embrace marriage for it’s followers but still thought it was too much of an interference for it’s leaders, which remains the case for some faiths today. I think, for obvious reasons, this doctrine appears to have failed.
As an aside, this is just another reason why I think gay marriage should be allowed as the church didn’t support marriage at all until 400 or so years ago!
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That’s my understanding too! The Christian church only really countenanced marriage when it realised that’s what the majority of its members preferred to do.
This is what I had already typed up when I saw your comment: The celibacy expectation could probably be traced back to early Christianity – which “was hostile to marital and kinship obligations to a degree unimaginable…” “Many early Christians believed that marriage undermined the rigorous self-control needed to achieve spiritual salvation.” (both from ‘Marriage, a History – How Love Conquered Marriage’ by Stepanie Coontz. Fascinating reading!) It seems that the early Christian church preferred its (male) members to dedicate their lives to the Church, only accepting marriage as a less sinful path than ‘lust’.
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True enough. Though it’s not just a matter of marriage. Celibacy is about avoiding all kinds of romantic relationships.
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In the Bible verses which cover this, unmarried=celibate.
Corinthians 7: 1 Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.
8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
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The first part of your quote is talking about the importance of the sexual union to the marriage covenant and relationship, and how it is important not to withhold sex from your spouse unnecessarily (it is as much about giving as receiving) – for example it shouldn’t be withheld as a form of punishment. The second part relates (I think) to a recognition that if those desires are there (and I would expect Paul would have been referring to a particular person, not just sex in general) that there is a call to marriage rather than a call to be celibate.
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I was just trying to clarify for Rick that that parts of the Bible that aren’t very pro marriage are offering only two options – married or celibate, no middle ground. Not arguing or anything.
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I was just clarifying.
There is no middle ground because sex is seen as something that is designed to be explored in marriage only – everyone who is not married, for whatever reason, is expected to remain celibate.
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Just like it all began
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Not quite, you’re historical understanding starts halfway. The church was all for marriage, until it wasn’t, and then it was again. And the bible itself has ALWAYS supported marriage.
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It’s just Paul who didn’t, because he thought everyone should be celibate (as I have quoted above). And he was pro-marriage as a secondary option to celibacy.
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Well, I don’t think this is an issue of “forced” celibacy. Priests and nuns become priests and nuns knowing they will have to take a vow of celibacy, so it is a choice they make.
I’d call it an unrealistic expectation…..
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True. Though I think it’s forced in the sense that these people want to be men of faith and lead their church (I’d say women too if they were allowed) but in order to do that they have to take a vow of celibacy, which seems entirely unnecessary to my not-at-all-scholarly eyes
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Celibacy is possible, of course. The issue is when it is forced. Choosing to be celibate, even for people who love sex in no big deal. But when it becomes the forbidden apple, it becomes a dangerous pressure.
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A couple of years back I was discussing some charity work alone in the office with a local Catholic Priest. I’d known him several years earlier but he’d left the parish for several years before returning. In the time he’d been away I’d had a baby and then become a single parent. After we’d finished discussing the charity work he gave me a lecture being a single parent and how if he’d been here he would have advised me against becoming involved with that man and so on. He then explained he gets really lonely and asked me for sex and tried to kiss me. I declined and I’ve never seen him again.
I reported his actions to the Bishop who offered to put me in touch with the church counsellor who ‘deals with these sorts of things’. This suggests to me that it’s not all that uncommon for Priests to approach women for sex. Expecting celibacy is unrealistic.
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I have always said, and still maintain, that they the day the Roman Catholic church allows female priests – I’ll be there.
Celibacy doesn’t bother me in the slightest.
Do I think it’s necessary to be a good Catholic? No. Do I think it’s archaic and should be abandoned? Absolutely. Would I do it anyway? In a heartbeat.
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I should clarify that I adore sex. I’m a scorpio after all
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I cant understand why you would be desperate to be part of a group that so patently doesnt want you?
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Is that a joke?
I think you’ll find it’s summed up quite nicely in a thing called the Apostles Creed.
Wanting to serve my God goes a tad beyond being “desperate to be part of a group”.
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No joke. The Catholic Church thinks women are not up to the job of being in charge. They do not want you if you are a woman. Simple.
The fact that you would “in a heartbeat” join up, but just arent allowed because you are female, seems REALLY strange to me. But then again the idea of a man in the sky who runs the place is fairly odd to me too, so maybe I just dont get it.
Anyway either way good luck with your dreams. Fingers crossed the Church stops being so horrifically sexist one day!
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Well I think I could be a better driving force for change within the church rather than walking away from a majority of my beliefs just because their are a number of positions I disagree with.
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Probably because they dont ‘not want’ her. They want people to attend. They just have rigid rules. The rules were originally in place for the same reason that male preists are not to procreate – because there was a threat that surviving spouses and children may attempt to make claim to Church property.
Im not saying its right, or its ok, but it *was* there for a reason.
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So said the defenders of salvery…
‘Twas just the RULEEEESSSS!!!
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Get rid of it. There is a very particular type of person who is willing to be celebate all their lives – a very pecular type of person. There are so many cases where the priest isn’t actually celebate – he just only has sex with children – which makes me wonder if there is a correlation in personality type. Eg the pedo has different (secret) sexual desires anyway, so not marrying a woman isn’t a huge sacrifice, plus they get community respect (rather than being outcast as they would otherwise be), plus they get trust and access to children.
That issue aside – how can someone who’s never had a romantic relationship advise people on life, when so much of life (and internal conflict) is driven by sex and love? Until you’ve experienced how mad desire can make you, you just aren’t qualified to give advice on it, in my opinion.
If celebacy wasn’t a requirement you’d get a much wider group of people doing it.
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Jenna, what do you mean by the statement “there is a very particular type of person who is willing to be celebate”?? I would argue this vehemently. There are many & varied reasons why a person may be willing to be celebate; to assume they are all a “particular type” or are all “peculiar” is offensive & hugely inaccurate.
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I think the Anglican’s might be right on this one – they can marry and have families, they have women and gay priests and divorce and contraception are allowed … And I grew up Catholic, with a lot of sexual guilt, I think from even before I knew what sex was I knew it was ‘bad’! Unsurprisingly I had my son when I was just 17!
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For me the decision is about committment. There should never be a link drawn between celibate priests and molestation. Do nuns molest children? They are celibate too, but you dont hear about any cases like that. There are plenty of people who chose celibacy in all walks of life, and I doubt many of them would take that horrid step.
Im committed to my fiance, because i love him, and as part of that love, we do have sex.
But by a similar token, my understanding is if I am so totally committed to my religion, and wanting to be a Priest/Monk etc, then my love is not for a person per se. So I can see where the connection to celibacy is. You cant exactly have sex with your love, if the one you love is not a physical being.
This is coming from a person who is prepared to go without sex for the months her fiance is on deployment overseas, but obviously a lifetime of celibacy is a bigger committment to love again.
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Probably some nuns do/did. Statistically sex offenders are almost always men, so it makes sense that so many more priests sexually assault children than nuns do.
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I think you missed my point.
There are bus drivers/teachers/unemployed/professionals who have been accused of, charged and/or convicted of paedophilia. Few of them can claim they are celibate, but they still commit the crime.
Paedophilia is not limited to a calling or profession. Its not limited to single people, family men/women, young or old. Its a disgusting sickness, but it does not discriminate. You cant test for it prior to giving them a job (unless they have prior convictions) so attributing it to a gender or walk of life is absolute bollocks.
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Cait, I want to like this comment more than once! So agree.
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Do you agree that more men than women are convicted as paedophiles? If so, then drawing a link between paedophilia and gender is not bollocks (although neither is gender causative of paedophilia).
And yes, paedophiles can have any career. But the Catholic Church has so many paedophile compensation claims that it has it’s own insurance – the Christian Brothers. We hear again and again about children being abused by priests – so much so that most priest jokes are about paedophilia. Is there any other career in which paedophilia seems to come up so frequently? Furthermore, there are fewer priests than lawyers, doctors, teachers, etc – so statistically you would think that you would see more paedos cropping up in those groups, as there is more scope for it. The fact that paedophila continues to reoccur within the Church indicates that there is a link. Not that being celebrate causes paedophila (by a long shot), but perhaps that paedophilas are attracted to the priesthood.
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There have always been cases of secret marriages and relationships within the Catholic church. There was a lake in Switzerland I believe, that was drained back in the 70s, and they found dozens of baby skeletons at the bottom of it. The lake was between a monastery and a nunnery. Guess whose babies they were?
The priest at the catholic nursing home where my grandmother and aunt worked had a relationship with his housekeeper, which was a bit of an open secret.
It is simply not a natural state of being, in my mind. We are made to be with other people, to love and have relationships and if we so wish, to have children. That is how God designed us – something about a lonely gardener and a rib? If that part of a person is denied, and forever missing, they will seek it out.
But as Kate said, they sign up for it, they know the rules. If they don’t like them, don’t sign up. Simple.
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I have been told that there are priests around who are very close to their house keepers and some of these housekeepers have children. Apparently the celebacy rule came about to protect the church from the children claiming church property.
I feel like we are losing too many great people who have the potential to be great priests to this rule. What makes it more frustrating is that if a catholic converted to another Christian church, became a minister got married and then converted back that would be ok to be a married priest.
I pray for the winds of change to be blown through the church and women and married priests and a heap of other reforms come.
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Interesting post, Rick. I think enforced celibacy is unrealistic, unfair and unnecessary, BUT the Catholic church has rules and the priests know the rules when they sign up. You can’t complain when you get sacked just because the rules (which you agreed to) are dumb.
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I agree. In the words of a Fourex ad, rules is rules.
But it’s time the Church looked at changing the rules. They’re constantly re-examining doctrine, so why not this one?
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The Catholic Church are concerned because there are so few new priests joining. From memory in Ireland it was less than 10 per year, which won’t be sustainable in the future to keep the churches running. Allowing priests to marry would mean more men would be happy to join. Or does that make too much sense?
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Wow, that’s a low number – and in Ireland, which supplied generations of priests / nuns / brothers for he rest of the world.
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