by JAMILA RIZVI
Yesterday, Grahame Morris – a former Chief of Staff to Prime Minister John Howard and Liberal Party ‘strategist’ – called journalist Leigh Sales a cow.
Why? Because late last week Leigh went to work and she did her job.
Leigh is an outstanding journalist. Despite being given only hours to prepare for her interview with Leader of the Opposition, Tony Abbott on ABC’s 7.30, she was well researched, she knew her subject, she was responsive and she nailed it.
Which begs the question, what is it about a woman doing her job (and doing it well) that prompts someone to compare her to a barnyard animal?
If it had been Kerry O’Brien who had conducted that same interview, would he have been subject to the same criticism that Leigh has? Laurie Oakes? George Negus? Would Twitter have erupted with questions about his mood, his demeanour, calling him ‘shrill’ or ‘angsty’ or ‘bitchy’?
Hell to the no.
In fact, if it had been any of those male journalists, they would have received a hearty pat on the back for a good day’s work from the Government side and a begrudging acknowledgement that it was a ‘solid’ interview, from the Opposition.
Along with a lot of other women, I took to Twitter last night to express my disgust at Morris’ comments. I had my outrage pants firmly buttoned up and I was ready to party. But then I was struck with a severe sense of déjà vu.
Because despite Morris ultimately apologising for and retracting his offensive statements – this is not the first and nor will it be the last time, that a strong and smart woman gets called names, simply for being good at what she does.
Only a few weeks ago, I grabbed my laptop in anger, raging at the CEO of the Australian Agricultural Company, David Farley for calling our Prime Minister an ‘old cow’.
I explained then that there was no way that Prime Minister Gillard would be able to buy into the debate over those comments. (I know it’s the height of absurdity to quote yourself but unsurprisingly – I agree with me – so here you go):
Because if she [Gillard] hits back at Farley, she’ll be called a ‘bitch’ and if she admits that the comments were hurtful, she’ll look ‘weak’. Heaven forbid the woman be allowed to show some humanity. Because even if she did, the Prime Minister would just cop another beating from the media and the Opposition with the underlying message – yet again – that a woman running the country is something be scared of.
The fact that gendered language is still being used to detract from a woman who is winning an argument, or achieving success is outrageous. And it’s not just women in the public eye like Leigh and the Prime Minister who cop it.
Just recently I was visiting friends in Adelaide and got into a fairly heated argument about the state of the economy with a guy who was a member of the youth wing of the Liberal Party.
Now we were a little boozed but I was still managing to be more coherent than he was and perhaps had the upper hand, when he slammed his palm onto the table and launched into his next line of attack with “Listen girlie…”.
I mean, seriously? I relished the moment, mainly because you know that when someone resorts to name calling in an argument that you’ve won. But still, there is no question that the language was an attempt to cut me down, to demean me and the arguments I was making, as those of a ‘little girl’. Or a barnyard animal.
By all means let’s engage in healthy debate about issues and even about those doing the interrogating. But sexist name-calling demeans everyone and does nothing to help your argument. In fact, it does the opposite.
Jamila is a member of the Australian Labor Party and has worked for both the Gillard and Rudd governments.










Comments
282 Comments so far
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totally agree
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This a bit simplistic I know, but if a man in our society has strong opinions he’s considered strong, forthright, self-assured and of admirable character.
If a woman has strong opinions – she’s OPINIONATED…….
Opinionated women are masculine, unattractive, pushy, bossy, argumentative, over-bearing, shrewish, sharp-tongued, hysterical, pre-menstrual, menopausal, bombastic, aggressive, loud, caustic, feral, controlling, ………have I left anything out ?
Older men were raised by even older men who’s own fathers lived in a Victorian & Edwardian world where women were often bashed or at least punished for speaking up and not respecting the man’s self-appointed “head of the house” status.
Tell those men that Australia would have a female Prime Minister, that men would be interviewed/interrogated by women, that women would run companies and serve on the front-line and they would see it as the disintegration of society.
I’m way past feeling sorry for their sensitive egos.
Resorting to childish, playground name-calling is all they have left, and dragging them into a new century is so damn tiring…….lol.
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There’s no way Leigh-for-Sales was being a cow. A cow would never be so rude as to constantly interrupt, interject, talk-over and ignore the answers to their own questions.
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A text message to Mia from a friend after sending a junior to get a banana;
“Selfish cow,” texted an editor friend. “Why didn’t you let work experience girl choose the cover and then take her out to dinner?”
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What happened to the like buttons?
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“love”
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Morris said: Leigh can be a real cow sometimes when she’s doing her interviews.
Not: Leigh Sales is a cow.
Big Difference.
Be a cow = be tough IMO
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If Sales had called Morris a pig, would we be having the same conversation? Dick? Prick? Knob?
The semantics of certain words are a fascinating thing… but just because one uses a word that has a base in gender it does not mean that that person holds mysogynist/mysandrist views. We can wipe out the use of certain words, but there will always be something else in its place that will come to mean the same thing. It is articles like this that make me shy away from the feminist label. Calling someone a cow doesn’t make them mysogynist. Calling someone a prick does not them mysandrist, and calling someone or yourself a retard does not mean your views of intellectually impaired people are degrading.
I am sure most women, including yourself Jamila, have used the words bitch/son of a bitch and cow, retard, moron, dickhead, prick etc. In fact women are the ones that use words like ‘bitch’ the most! You have simply connected your own meaning of the word cow to Morris’ dialogue for the sole purpose of calling another person mysogynist. Instead maybe you could actually explore the semantics of the word and the context it is used in today – and separate that from the views of the person who uses the word. They are two separate things Jamila. Throwing an insult at a woman does not mean one hates all women, and throwing an insult at a man does not make one a hater of all men.
Unless you are a saint who has never used any words that have come from a derogatory base, you need to stop drawing the mysogynist card every time someone else does. It is totally off the mark and makes feminists look like a bunch of whingers.
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‘like’
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I find myself at odds with these comments. The article is about challenging low-brow political rhetoric that seeks to demonise women for being good at their jobs and further perpetuate gender binaries of the roles women SHOULD play in society. We cannot deny the fact that if Ms Morris were a man she would described by Grahame as ‘tough’ and ‘ambitious’ rather than a ‘real cow’. What Grahame is demonstrating is the unease faced by men in politics that see women as threats as in a political discourse. Hence the reduction of a hard-working, diligent woman as a ‘cow’. I loved the article, love the site and think that these issues NEED to be rehashed to remind women that they are part of a team…. a team who will have their backs when bullies like Grahame try and push them under the bus.
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I don’t think so Alexandra. If she was a male, there is every chance he could have used a phrase such as prick or asshole or a ‘real bastard’, and the meaning behind it would be the same, and the intent behind it the same. Here’s the thing – we can be offended by any word we like, but the context dictates the real intent behind it. I could be offended every time someone says “geez you’re a midget”, but it doesn’t mean the person who says it has a problem with midgets does it?
I have no problem with Jamila campaigning against the word cow because she finds it offensive, but just don’t assume to know the intent behind it. And it is a double standard to be offended by the word cow and think it is mysogynist, but still use the word prick or bitch or arse-fucker or whatever.
It is VERY MUCH an issue of semantics. The political side is a null point. All pollies throw around insults at each other – all kinds. I’ve watched a parliament meeting and they all do it, even the women. That has nothing to do with sexism. If Morris had said, ‘god these fucking women pollies are a pain in the arse and think they know everything’, then THAT would be mysogynist. Saying she can be a cow sometimes is not.
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Like!
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I agree with you Alexandra. To me it seems pathetic that these binaries are still even in existence within society. More so that sexist nicknames are being applied to female workers for what appears to be no other reason than to insult and belittle them. Grahame’s language was completely unnecessary and provided no actual critique about Morris’ work; rather coming across as nothing more than a demeaning name and a reflection of his own narrow-mindedness. If he was truly displeased at an aspect of her interviewing technique, he should have taken time to organise his thoughts and come up with some form of constructive criticism. How sad that these stories are still so common place in this day and age…
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Actually I would imagine if Leigh was a man, Morris may well have described her as a bastard, an arsehole, or prick. My point is that using an insult that has come from a genderist base does not automatically qualify it as mysogynistic. It doesn’t mean he has depraved views of women. He may well be an arsehole, but this is not a feminist issue.
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Lucinda, you are a breath of fresh air. Thank you for your comment.
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I like the way that you think, Lucinda.
Your comment is an A-grade example of pure common sense thinking.
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Sorry Lucinda, I have to partly disagree.
This term was used because she is a woman, people don’t generally call men a cow over their actions or behaviour. Using a gender specific insult does make the comment sexist, if not misogynist – maybe Graham Morris doesn’t hate all women, but this off the cuff remark does suggest less respect for the skill this woman does in her job.
This comment insinuates there is a general issue about her attitude or personality, that she can ‘be a real cow’ in her interviews, rather than a fault in her questioning skills, or Tony Abbot’s ability to answer the question satisfactorily.
I agree that women use the same derogatory terms against men and each other. This man did so and publicly disrespected Leigh Sales.
I still think it is important to call people on their language, even if it makes us look like ‘whingers’, because next time he may think for a second and come up with an actual criticism of her work.
I don’t think Leigh is off crying in a corner about it, either way.
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Would it have made you feel better if he had said she can be a nasty piece of work, or manipulative in her questioning tactics? Would that satisfy you then? Because it still wouldn’t change the intent behind the comment. Like I said, it is all semantics. If Jamila wants to call people out on their use of genderist words, great. But I’d like to see MM just once pull someone up for using the word prick because it is the very same thing.
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The argument has already been had by the time I arrive so I don’t reply but I do like to hit the ‘like’ button. It’s only missing from this article and the other one on Abbott. How come?
Kristina, well said, I feel your pain.
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Who amongst us has never called a man a prick? Just asking.
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I shan’t be casting the first stone, anon58.
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Consider this….had Morris stated that Sales was like “a dog with a bone” during the I/V with Abbott, someone would have insisted that he was calling Sales a dog, AND being sexist.
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lol, the old ‘delete the votes when we are losing an argument’ strikes again it would seem.
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I wanted to hit the thumbs-up, but someone had stolen it !
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Me two/too
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The Government is so concerned with the planet that they’ve priced carbon dioxide. The left are mad for empty gestures and this is the granddaddy (sexist?) of them all. Carbon credits aren’t worth the paper they’re written on and we’ll be lining the pockets of despots and fraudsters with billions of dollars that could have seen the NDIS and dental care fully funded.
What I want to know is this – if the Gillard government is so concerned about the planet that they’re willing to disadvantage our industries, businesses and citizens why the HELL aren’t they stopping the mega trawler from raping and pillaging our oceans?
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I’m not at all surprised that the perpetually outraged are having their usual meltdown over this. After all, an old dinosaur asking if you have a ‘good’ baby is now considered one of the top five worst things to say to a new mother.
I can’t be bothered replying anymore. Logging onto Mamamia is like groundhog day. Does anyone know of any sites for women who can think for themselves? I consider myself a massive lefty as far as social justice and the environment but I can’t stand this year 9 drama over feminism any longer.
The comment by stef sums it up for me. I want more from a website than this constant labor propaganda.
Jamila, if you didn’t want to whip around the hat for Shorten, why didn’t you cover the debacle of the carbon price?
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You can’t be bothered posting anymore and yet you made two posts after this one.
Okay……
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Ahh, and here you are again Cold commenting, perpetuating drama… how about an original thought?
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Sorry, kristine, what was it you were saying about being petty….?
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How about you actually join the debate? I think it’s clear that you know how to use spell check and the like but do you have an original thought on this subject? So far I just see you dragging the conversation down with your pettiness. Contribute in a positive way. Please.
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http://www.dailylife.com.au
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Thanks. I’ve been meaning to ask but didn’t like to. I feel as though I’m in a year 12 common room here. I’ll go have a look.
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Please, please then….. go somewhere else instead of reading & commenting here . You don’t have to you know!
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Exactly what I wanted to say.
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Merri, gold pure gold! Thank you! Go Merri and Stef and the others. Love your comments. They leave Cold out in the cold.
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Leigh Sales would have to be one of the best news interviewers anywhere. Sticking to task and not letting questions be evaded is something not done by many.
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Abbott answered her question. She was like she had ants in her pants over nothing. He’s been vindicated and she’s shown how bias she is.
Over it.
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He did not answer at least one of her questions.
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We must have watched different interviews. Abbot was typical of almost all current politicians and skirted around answers and gave non answers. Leigh tried to get him to answer the questions rather than just say carbon tax. Fair dinkum the muppets give more intelligent answers.
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I watched what you watched Merri. Leigh Sales seemed really cross and annoyed. Not at all professional And those hands!!! Her bias always lets her down. I love Chris Uhlmann. He’s a great interviewer.
Tony Abbott has been vindicated. He answered her questions. All her cross questions.
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We say enough is enough. Please move on everybody with your first world problems. How do you think we feel being used to describe stupid people? And another thing … we’re equal, so put that in your proverbail and have a chomp on it. So much silly outrage wasted on whether a cow is worse thatn a dinosaur. Get over it! Mooove forward and mooove on!
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Comparing cow with dinosaur is like comparing apples with oranges.
My late nan used to call me a little cow when I was naughty. I got called little cow quite a lot.
Anyway, one day she did it and my grandfather got quite cross with her & told her to stop doing it. No variations, either (ie. moo, mare etc).
Why am I telling you this? Well, because 30 odd years ago one man knew it wasn’t acceptable to refer to a female as a cow. It’s not exactly new. Cow is an insult for a woman, so is bitch. He shouldn’t have done it, he knew what he was doing and his apology was half arsed to say the least.
As to whether Leigh should have referred to him as a dinosaur, well, it’s still name calling but I suppose at least it had nothing to do with his reproductive organs.
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What?
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What don’t you understand?
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What do you understand?
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I understand that you have a problem with my posts. I also understood what essessese was saying. It was a genuine question. Not sure your post was.
I’ll wait for the next insult, now. Might go and read the comments on the Charlotte Dawson post as well.
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Did anyone notice the amount of times that female athletes at the Olympics were called ‘girls’.
Definitely a disparity between the male and female athletes, with the males being called ‘men’, and the females, by almost all of the commentators, calling them girls.
Very annoying, to the point that I found it hard to watch.
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Yes. I even noticed that the female commentators were calling the female athletes girls !
Those nasty, unfeeling (insert gender non-specific taunt) !
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Oh for heavens sake. I can’t take anymore of this site. It’s a feminist nursery school.
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I normally love reading Mamamia. The below discussion makes me feel as though I should wash my hands of this place. Let’s rehash…
1. Cow is a gender specific slur. A cow is a simple minded, cud crunching bovine, bred for consumption and/or further reproduction.
2. A dinosaur is not a specific animal, but an extinct group of varying species. To refer to someone as a dinosaur is to suggest their ideas are prehistoric and outdated. Even carbon dated. I highly doubt Jamilia is suggesting Morris is a T-Rex.
How are these comparable? One is a personal characterisation referring to livestock and the other protests the ideas or position of a person. Yeah, I can see how relativism works there. On these comments, I’ve noticed men refer to grown women as silly girls, perpetuating the same tripe Mia used as an example; anytime somebody dismisses me or my position as that of silly little girl, girlie, princess or otherwise, they lose credibility and the right to be heard.
Some suggest we want equality, but can’t take the heat. Problem: Anytime a woman comes out as strong and competent in the wider media, the heat is somewhat toasty compared to a man in the same position. Swap Sales with any hard line male journalist and his performance would be lauded as an example to look up to.
Those who suggest this is more coalition bashing; if a public figure makes a derogatory statement, the outcry will be deserved and any subsequent bashing is a consequence. As an aside, if Mamamia is too left for your liking, why are you here?
I enjoy reading Jamilia’s posts, they’re generally balanced and personalised, she admits a limit to her own perspective and I’ve never found her to be disrespectful to any of her subjects. There are so many other websites where you’ll find solidarity, so why spoil our experience? Are you just trolling? Attention seeking? Want something to protest and rail against?
I thought the left and right bullshit wars were restricted to the US, but with terms like Labor Elite and people referring to the left or voting on left notions with vitriol and scorn, I can see Australia has been infected with the same egoism. Perhaps I should start sneering at anyone who votes conservative, instead of exploring the merits of their thoughts? No? Didn’t think so. Just because another doesn’t vote down your party line, doesn’t mean their opinion shouldn’t be understood and respected.
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beautifully put. Thank you… and don’t leave the dinner party – please. We need you at the table.
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I’m not going anywhere, Snoozy. I hope you’re comfortably in bed by now!
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Excellently put
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Thanks!
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Absolute rubbish. You just don’t like it that others are finally challenging the usual love-in here.
To an outsider looking in, the way this site covers politics is embarrassing to any thinking woman. I know the demographic here is under 40 and even Ms Giilard considered herself ‘young and naive’ at 34 but seriously …
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Finally? The loudest voices are those who comment on every political piece with the same lines, altered here and there to stay relevant to content. This place is not loving, society at large is not loving, but it does have the capacity to be respectful. A regular reader would observe fringes of differing opinion, depending on what’s being discussed.
Such a capacity, by the way, has apparently skipped out on your reactionary response. You’re not an outside looking in; you’ve just played the same tough guy act on the internet as anybody else with a chip on their shoulder. Yes, the political analysis on MamaMia is surface and somewhat easy to digest, generally because it is not a political website. If you’re after sophisticated material, again I address my question, why are you here? Honestly, it’s like going to any news and politics rich site and demanding more discussion around breastfeeding.
Mamamia is not my political fix; it occasionally has a political element and prompts a lot of perfunctory conversation. Did you seriously imply that I and other Mamamia readers/commenters aren’t thinking women simply because we may disagree with your position? What an inept argument. You don’t agree with me, so you’re A and B.
You might want to hold yourself accountable for your language there, as you’re showing your own bias in full colours – a true thinking woman wouldn’t be so satisfied with themselves, they seek all arguments and consider the strengths of each, formulating their perception. Also, a nice bout of actual ageism, anyone over forty and presumably a conservative voter is above naivety, but women who opt to pass a guilty pleasure here at Mamamia and happen to comment in approval are suddenly bereft of thought? Impeccable reasoning, ma’am.
How about you take a breath and actually come back to the discussion with a tangible and constructive response. If that isn’t possible, head back to the bitchy school yard where your snarkfest comes from.
Oh, by the way, I didn’t vote Gillard in the last election. But that probably doesn’t factor well into your poorly formed, vitriol packed rhetoric.
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I feel purged. Best rant I’ve ever read on here. Thank you Jpop, that couldn’t have been any better.
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No worries
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*applauds wildly*
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Bows*
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Did you run it by Mia before you ordered others out of your little party, Jpop? Mia has said that the traffic has increased considerably. Is she happy for you to run her business for her? With 70% of the electorate desperate for an election it’s only natural that the labor line will be challenged. The politics here isn’t lighthearted or lazy, it is blindly pro-Labor. I simply don’t bother commenting on the political stuff here. You don’t speak for me when you order others to leave.
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It’s actually not. Mia has run posts about and with Tony Abbott and critical of the Labor government before.
Since Jamila has come on board, it hasn’t been any secret that she came from Kate Ellis’ office. She’s never hidden that she was a staffer at Parliament house for the Labor government, and has always been a proud card-carrying member of the rank and file of the party. Why on earth would you expect glowing articles about the LNP from someone who, by definition, is opposed to them?
All the complaints about bias are akin to me going to Andrew Bolt’s sites and complaining that he’s never nice about Labor. Rather than just whinging all the time, why not write something constructive?
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Are you prone to over-reaction? No one asked anybody to leave, I just enquired as to why discontent peeps frequent a site that obviously doesn’t reflect their world view and contribute nothing to the conversation but the same arguments, one liners, complaints and wah wah whabulance whining that is symptomatic on both sides. If the common denominator is ruled by Labor voters, feminists or those concerned with issues concerning women (including those in the media), it only makes sense those things will get coverage. Don’t like it? Click away or click the articles relevant to you.
Jamilia hasn’t hidden her identity or affiliation, but still manages to write with more clarity than any conservative publications. If you want to be the change, contribute something from your perspective, Mia and co always welcome contributions from a different perspective. Instead of brow beating and pouting, why not act? It’s probably easier to rest on the laurels of your indignation and claim bias, instead of contributing something constructive to the ongoing discussion.
Talk about snarking for the sake of it.
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The upshot here Graeme, old son…..if you are going to have a go at anyone, use gender non-specific terminology in future !
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Bradley, you may have finally understood the article.
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Although I don’t agree with what Graeme said. I understand he has since made a public apology. Doesn’t that mean that we should all move on.
This article and many of the subsequent posts are inciting this issue further. As far as I’m concerned he apologised and people should move on. Isn’t it better to rise above this stuff not sink to the same “name calling” level. If we do then we are no better.
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He may have made an apology, but he knew what he was saying. He chose to be sexist.
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So therefore you aren’t prepared to admonish him, accept his apology and we get on with it ?
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Here, here! I totally agree. Sexist name-calling is plain futile!
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Graeme Morris is a dinosaur because he is out of touch with current thinking on many levels he still doesn’t believe in Global Warming and is clueless, if he is being put forward as a spokesperson for the Liberal Party they would be well served by dumping him.
By the way dinosaur is not gender specific, unlike cow, so it’s use to describe someone does not have a sexist implication.
Graeme is just showing his sour grapes at his mate Tony being shown up boo hoo.
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Just because the word dinosaur isn’t gender specific doesn’t mean that it’s any less offensive.
A rose by any other name…
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I totally agree with this article, thanks for you opinion Jamila – I always enjoy reading your posts.
DISCLAIMER: I am Jamila’s younger sister who has lost many an argument to her and resorted to name calling.
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Hi Mim.
Out of interest, what did you call your sister during those arguments ?
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Bradley – Mim is my only sibling and we’re only a few years apart. I think a better question would be, was there anything we DIDN’T call one another
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Great answer !
Could have been written by my own sister.
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Gosh Leigh really got under his skin or else he wouldn’t resort to being so undignified. I bet she’s over it but I think he might feel a bit stupid.
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Wonder when Leigh will be running for the Labor party?
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I’m sure she’s got a twitter account. Why don’t you check it out and ask her, or email her at the abc?
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Maxine Mckew, anyone? Lol
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To those who are comparing ‘dinosaur’ with ‘cow’, come on.
The main feature of a dinosaur is that they are extinct. Using it to describe someone has no sexist or negative physical implications.
A cow?
Different story.
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Mia, I’m going to pretend I didn’t read that.
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Sorry Mia. I disagree with your statement.
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Hi Mia, referring to someone as ‘a cow ‘ is indeed sexist, however referring to someone as ‘a dinosaur’ is ageist and as you said ‘extinct’ meaning irrelevant. It is a ‘different story’, but still designed to be a put down and insult.
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I don’t think she is calling him a dinosaur because of his age. She was calling him a dinosaur because of the archaic views that he holds. I know a number of men and women in their early 20s who hold similar views, that I would also call a dinosaur, and I know PENTY of older people, of conservatives, of men and women who I would not call a dinosaur.
I thought it was quite obvious. Maybe there are a lot of trolls today?
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Well, you’d think it was obvious but clearly the Dinosaur Protection League are on the rampage today. They’ve got feelings, you know!
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I was thinking the same thing as Mia, but obviously (see above) not everyone feels that way.
BUT
I have heard men, women, and entire sections of industries labelled as ‘dinosaurs’….never seen anyone or anything other than a woman labelled a cow…probably because ‘dinosaur’ just isn’t a gender specific word, it’s a species. Encapsulates both male and female. ‘Cow’, both by definition, and in use as a taunt, is exclusively female.
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Well, how about ‘mincing poodle’? I’ll fall off my chair the day Mamamia writes a piece on how disgraceful that term was used by Julia Gillard to refer to Christopher Pyne. Not to mention the homophobic undertones of that particular slur…
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Looking for the like buttons but they have gone?
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Yes, where are the thumbs-up ?
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The ‘mincing poodle’ incident:
“I actually never used that terminology. I invite you to go back to the Hansard and see exactly what I said,” she said.
The Hansard from February 23, 2009 shows Ms Gillard used the words “mincing” and “poodle” to characterise Mr Pyne, but not in succession.
At the time, Ms Gillard was speculating about whether Mr Pyne or Mr Abbott should have been appointed to the role of manager of opposition business.
“In a choice between macho and mincing, I would have gone for macho myself, and obviously the (then) leader of the opposition (Malcolm Turnbull), faced with the choice of a doberman or poodle, has gone for the poodle,” she said.
That was it!
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The intent was the same even if the words weren’t directly one after the other. It was, I dare say, a “gendered” insult.
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Read it again Abby.
You can’t accuse someone of saying something they simply didn’t say.
That would make you complicit in the lie.
That is the actual quote from which this ‘misquote’ emerged.
That is a fact, the truth, even if you don’t want to believe it.
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My children think the leader of the opposition is named Tony Rabbit….think it is the ears and slightly toothy smile!
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But don’t grin at what Germaine Greer said about JG !!!!!!! Because that isn’t funny, either !!!!
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Serious question, here. Do two wrongs make a right ? Which is the lesser of the two evils….a petulant male calling a female silly names or a petulant female responding to the situation by calling the petulant male silly names ?
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I liked Mia’s tweet. ” I will refrain from making animal comparisons about him (Graeme Morris) because I respect animals “.
Kind of says it all. Two wrongs don’t make a right, and your comment about Morris was as sexist as Morris’s about Sales if you really want to get down to tin tacks.
I recall an incident involving Senator Wong and a certain Senator Bushby. Apparently it was considered amusing and clever when several commentors on this site referred to Bushby as “Bushpig”. If memory serves me well, one of the guests on the MM TV show even used the same term, greeted by shrieks of laughter from all on the panel.
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I really agree with you on this Bradley.
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Lets not forget that Julia Gillard once refered to the Liberal Christopher Pyne as a “mincing poodle”, I thought that was incredibly rude.
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Let’s not forget all of those clever and extremely witty remarks made by male comedians on “Good News Week” and “The Glasshouse” about Bronwyn Bishop being a mad cow at the hight of the mad cow disease scare in England.
Rib tickling, lap slapping, finger lickin’ good clean fun ! And not so much as a “how dare you” raised by any panelist or member of the audience.
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I see your point but I am a little uneasy with it, there is quite a difference between comedians having a dig & pollies, their political adisvers & the media calling each other names…
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If it is wrong to refer to a woman as a cow….then it’s wrong to refer to a woman as a cow. I don’t care what your station in life may be.
No ifs, and certainly no buts.
End of story.
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This is what she actually said:
“In a choice between macho and mincing, I would have gone for macho myself, and obviously the (then) leader of the opposition (Malcolm Turnbull), faced with the choice of a doberman or poodle, has gone for the poodle,” she said.
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Now we have to ask this question. When will it all change? We shouldn’t be having arguments about men like Grahame who describes women as cows, because men like him shouldn’t be dismissing the talent of a journalist who happens to be a woman. I just hope that when I get to his age, the sexism and prejudice of women being in the force will have stopped and that we will judge on the talent instead of their gender.
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being in the work force** missed that!
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Grahame Morris is a misogynist. Horrible old man.
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The question that I asked has been deleted. I asked the question in a respectful manner, not using profanity or personal insult. May I ask which part of my question ruffled the feathers of the moderator ? Please and thank you.
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To those who say calling Grahame Morris a dinosaur is in the same league as calling Leigh Sales a cow, I say that women who are unflinching, uncompromising, sharp and do their job well do NOT deserve to be called cows and if someone does so they DO deserve to be called dinosaurs.
“Cow” is a gender-based insult and I can’t immediately think of an equivalent for a man that’s as easily able to be uttered in public and has the same level of negativity attached to it. We wouldn’t easily get away with describing a tough male interviewer as a “prick” nor a tough female interviewer as a “bitch” – although “cow” is the softer version of “bitch”, isnt it, really?
That leaves “bastard” for a tough male interviewer. Although rightfully it should refer to both sexes, it’s more often a reference to a male, and there’s often an element of admiration when “bastard” is used – “Didja see Negus get stuck into Joe Bloggs last night. Gee, he’s a tough bastard!” – or affection – “You’re a sad old bastard today. Wassup?”
I think the upshot is that Leigh Sales, because she’s a woman, is expected to have smiled and been softer in her approach. Tut tut, Leigh. It was GREAT television, wasn’t it?
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What rubbish.
By calling middle aged conservatives dinosaurs you are diminishing your argument, and it actually makes middle aged men think that you’re a lightweight with nothing to contribute.
It’s all because you are a hypocrit. If you want to be taken seriously by the men who DON’T engage in petty name calling, then you should stop acting like a petulant child.
Do you get it yet? You are making it harder for women to be taken seriously by behaving in the same infantile manner.
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Thanks, Anon, but I’m not sure that calling me a lightweight, petulant “hypocrit” hugely strengthens your argument – which was, again?
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You just proved it.
Apologies for the typo’s, keyboard is a bit ordinary.
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Actually, since you asked, and you are obviously clueless, I’ll tell you.
There are a lot of conservative men out there who, like it or not, have an enormous amount of power in society and in work environments. Without banging my own drum I’m one of them, I am in charge of $50 million projects and I am the direct boss of about 180 people, both male and female.
I don’t allow sexism, bullying or racism at work. In my world all three are sacking offences. I abhor all three of these things, and I think men like Mr Morris should have their arses kicked until their noses bleed.
I’m also a middle aged card carrying conservative.
So when you lump all of us together as “Dinosaurs”, or refer to Mr Morris as a dinosaur, I’d just remind you that you have insulted and offended a man with some influence who is actually on your side.
You could have chosen to keep the high moral ground, but you didn’t, you descended to the same primordal level as Mr Morris and all it has done is reduce my opinion of you to the same level that I have of Mr Morris.
You could always come back with the typical petulant response of “I don’t care what you think of me”, but so what if that’s the case? If it’s not me you’ll only make it hard for yourself with someone else.
You are therefore your own worst enemy. Good luck with that.
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I’m not the petulant sort and you are banging your own drum. You also didn’t read my comments very carefully. I did not in fact call Mr Morris a dinosaur. I suggested “people” who say the sorts of things he said are rightly described as dinosaurs – as in, their attitudes are dinosaurish. You however think he should have his arse kicked till his nose bleeds. I say no more.
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No, you just called people like him, of which I’m one.
We are both middle aged conservatives, the difference is that I don’t call women “cows”
So I took offence at your post as I don’t like being lumped into that group.
I actually don’t care what you think of Mr Morris, but I do care about me, and I found your post offensive.
Do you get it yet?
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No, no, no. I said people who call women cows are dinosaurs because they’re exhibiting a dinosaurish attitude. Male and conservative does not equal “dinosaur”. One can be young and female and be a dinosaur. One can be old and male and not be a dinosaur. I hesitate to ask, but do you get it yet?
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Yes I get that, thankyou for explaining.
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Reading the comments below has been such a depressing exercise. How will things ever change for intelligent, strong, capable women when most people don’t even seem to get the point of this article? It’s not an opportunity to attack Leigh Sales’ interview style, it’s not an opportunity to attack Jamila’s political preferences and it’s not an opportunity to launch an impassioned defense of Tony Abbott and the LNP. That stuff is irrelevant. This article is an opportunity to recognize that as long as sad, ignorant men like Grahame Morris have a legitimate voice in the public arena, sexism will forever be embedded into our daily language, it will remain part of our culture. Is this acceptable to you? As women we need to start looking for the things that bind us together rather than the things that separate us.
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Yes. What you said. YES. THAT.
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I agree with your sentiments. I agree unreservedly !
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No need for me to comment because you have said exactly what I wanted to say… perfectly put thanks!
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Leigh Sales is just wonderful and Graham Morriss is just plain rude..But we need some equal opportunity vitriol here girls…How do you feel about Germaine Greer…she is just plain nasty
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Germaine Greer has a personality disorder. Always has, always will. But that guarantees the lefties will love you. Look at Melinda Tankard Reist. She’s a woman who speaks common sense yet is vilified because she once stepped inside a church and she refuses to toe the feminist party’s line on abortion. Remember the tweets hoping she’d be anally raped by a coffee mug? You have to give to the left, they have a wonderful sense of humour, don’t they?
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What a load of generalising rubbish.
Germaine has been insulting the leader of the ALP (the “left” leaning major party). What on earth would make you think lefties would support that?
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I’ve written my column about Germaine this weekend.
Check back on Sunday.
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You’re always on the money Jamila.
And to anyone who says they don’t see a role for feminists in the 21st century, here is exhibit A in sexism…
And while it’s deplorable behaviour, these old dinosaurs are helping to renew the feminist debate and more women who sit on feminism’s fence are becoming enlightened to the need for continual vigilance and commitment to the feminist cause. The battle is far from over, but the debate is getting some much needed oxygen.
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Thanks for the perfect demonstration of modern feminist hypocrisy. It is fine to call middle aged men dinosaurs, but the worlds worst to call a women a cow. Make fun of Abbotts swim attire, but the end of the world when someone comments on what Julia wears.
Seriously, has feminism truely got us to this point, where women seriously cant see the most obvious of double standards at play.
It is as if being born females comes with an expectation that nobody can ever have a go at you, while you can still call men any name under the sun without a ripple.
Harden up girls, ffs.
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You don’t have to be a middle-aged man to be a dinosaur. A dinosaur is simply someone who has outdated ideas.
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What do you call the peddler of double standards ?
Serious question !
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Tony Abbott
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Some people are predictable, ID.
I was after a serious answer to my question.
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Sorry Bradley, I just missed you is all.
My serious answer is ‘a politician’.
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Awwww shucks, ID !
Forget pollies for a tick. That is fairly much a given. I really want to know what you call the peddler of double standards as I wish to use the word.
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So calling conservative men dinosaurs is ok is it?
Where do you get off with your complete and total hypocrisy you silly girl? You do nothing, with statements like that, to make any man take you seriously.
I’m not talking about women in general, I’m talking about silly girls like you who decide that it’s ok to call a group of people you disagree with bad names, and use a name that implies that they are old and should be extinct.
You’re as bad as Mr Morris.
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There were both male and female dinosaurs. There are not male and female cows.
Dinosaur is not a gender-specific insult.
Neither is idiot. Just sayin’.
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Hi Sarah Mc !
If I read your comment correctly, do you mean that it would have been preferable for Morris to call Sales an idiot or such like, instead ?
Would this have caused less fuss or about the same ?
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No, I was referring to the comment I was responding to. It would be preferable for a public figure like Morris to refrain from insulting journalists who are doing their job.
Luckily I am not a public figure and can respond in kind on internet forums if people refer to grown women as “silly girls”, just for example.
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Thank you Ang.
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‘I was still managing to be more coherent than he was and perhaps had the upper hand, when he slammed his palm onto the table and launched into his next line of attack with “Listen girlie…”.’
Jamila, dear Jamila, this is when you put on your best schoolmarm tone and say, “you listen here, young man”
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No, you don’t
You just smile at him and say … nothing.
Throws them into awful confusion.
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I, too, regularly employ the ‘uncomfortably long pause’ in my job. It works a treat.
I used to spend a great deal of time on the phone dealing with gents of varying ages (as their superior) in a male-dominated industry I found I got numerous heated monologues from them. Letting them talk themselves out, get out all the name calling (I must admit I haven’t been called ‘girly’) then leaving the uncomfortably long pause before responding often results in an apology or at least a note of contrition as the conversation resumes. It also saves me saying something I might regret later!
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Is it possible to link to the actual audio cause in context it is a compliment IMO referring to her interview method. A begrudging one but one nonetheless.
I am confused. Women want to be treated equally but still play the sexist card when certain words are used. If you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen. I can’t imagine the press or male reporters getting their knickers in a knot over a politician calling a male interviewer a rabid dog or rough bastard etc.
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Are women supposed to just take all the crap that’s heaped on them (at a much greater rate then men receive similar commentary) until magically the world becomes ‘equal’?
It’s only through pointing out that this type of behavior is both unacceptable and targeted at women far more frequently than it is targeted at men that people who aren’t switched on to these things realize there is an issue.
So accusing women of playing the sexist card in trying to achieve gender equality as if it’s playing unfairly isn’t an insult, drawing attention to the sexism in this situation is just common sense. Because women won’t have gender equality until they stop being subjected to sexist remarks such as this whenever they dare to be anything more than mediocre.
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Great post Jamila. I can’t stand sexism!
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What a disgusting and lazy insult. Morris should be ashamed of himself.
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Petty name calling is poor form from any adult in any type of employment. Firing a name back at the person who called you name turns this into an embarrassing and childish spat. His behavior was unacceptable, no matter which part of the political spectrum you find yourself. As a swinging voter I watch many political interviews, this one had nothing noteworthy. It wasn’t bad journalism but I wouldn’t have thought it anywhere near her best work. Her response to his behavior, and his behavior itself, left a lot to be desired.
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Basically this article is encouraging and inviting tit-for-tat name calling.
Two wrongs and all that.
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Anti-Christian? Anti-Lactivist?
No, you’re wrong I’m afraid.
What we are is anti-bullying.
What we are is anti-racist.
What we are is anti-homophobe.
We have issues that we care passionately about (and yes, vaccination is one of them). We won’t apologise for that.
What is refreshing about Jamila is that she’s passionate and she has an inside awareness of politics few of us are privy too. Do you have to agree with her? Absolutely not! We’re here to engage in healthy, respectful debate.
When it comes to politics we welcome a range of opinions. I welcome you to submit a post, we would love to publish it.
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Sorry guys. This was a reply to a commenter who has since disappeared!
Awkies.
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Bec I love your 1st comment…. and your 2nd one had me laughing out loud as I hide in my bedroom on MMia (hide – as in from two small hungry people! I’m not ready to face dinner time just yet….. )
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Why exactly was my comment, to which you replied, deleted?
Btw I have no problem with MM having issues it sticks with, even if they’re ones I don’t agree with. I do have a problem with the site’s overwhelmingly negative posts on Chriatianity. I also think the extreme lefty posts are just madness from a business perspective: why antagonise or turn away half your potential readership?
But the main point I was making was it would be nice for MM to branch out and get some new hobbies to chat about. Which, sorry Bec, ain’t my job.
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Well I’ll fill in the awkward silence then. Yesterday I asked you to add ‘anti-child abuse’ to your list of causes and haven’t got an answer.
Nothing will convince me that this article isn’t simply more Coalition bashing. At the risk of driving people mad with my persistence, why wasn’t Shorten called on his swearing and threatening of a woman who couldn’t meet his needs?
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Hi Stef
Did you ask me to add child-abuse to our list of causes? Because I promise you I didn’t see your comment. Most of them do come through to my inbox although sometimes comments do seem to get lost in cyberspace. If you made a general comment to the team in general, it may not have been noticed. Sorry. Seriously there are only 4 people (plus me and I’m part-time) in the team. It’s hard to keep an eye on every comment that comes in.
I promise you we are passionate about protecting children and we have featured dozens of Mamamia Cares posts on different charities that provide emotional support to victims. As well as charities like Bravehearts that work with educating children and families about what a predator really looks like.
If you have a particular charity or group you would like to see featured on Mamamia — let me know. We welcome submission from agencies who exist to care for and protect children.
Fair question about Shorten. Sometimes we don’t cover things because other bigger stories get our attention.
Should we have covered it? Possibly yes.
We don’t always get it right. But we try.
If you feel passionate about a topic, you could write something for us though!! Would you consider it?
Cheers
Bec
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Hi Stef
I’m sorry if we’ve missed one of your earlier comments. It’s a big site and we get a lot of questions so unfortunately we do miss requests now and then.
We’ve run a number of posts around child abuse in the past including this one earlier in the week, which I thought was just lovely: http://www.mamamia.com.au/social/bikers-against-child-abuse/
It’s definitely a cause that we can all agree on, regardless of our politics
Jamila
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Thanks for the replys. My comment was on the article about Christine Forster.
It’s regarding the soft sentences handed out to pedophiles. The judiciary need to reflect the attitude of the community. To me that means throwing away the key, not tapping their wrist and letting them out to hurt more children.
The politicians are silent on it. Wilkie could have demanded it but didn’t. The Independants could have demanded it but didn’t. No-one is screaming about the epidemic that is affecting one in four girls and one in seven boys.
Someone needs to start demanding justice for our children.
We should be fighting for these little girls (and boys, of course) so that one in four of them aren’t destroyed by predators, not worrying about who called who a cow or a dinosaur.
Sales can stand up for herself. These babies can’t.
I know you are a small staff but with social media you can agitate for change, demand tougher sentences and show your interns that the power of women working together can change things.
It’s time to stop dumbing down your readers with Abbott hate and coalition bashing and get to the issues that mean something.
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Stef….another comment from your good self that is pure gold ! Your final paragraph says it all.
Agree, agree, agree !
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Hi Jamila
To be fair, I think “Along with a lot of other women, I took to Twitter last night to express my disgust at Morris’ comments.” should have been “other people” as men also expressed their disgust.
As for the people chorusing their disapproval of anything interpreted as anti-Coalition on this website, if you find this one too left-leaning then please find another. I am perfectly happy with it and Jamila’s opinions and I would hate it to change to appease you. Perhaps start your own “conservative” fan page. I promise not to bother you there.
You constantly complaining this site is “too left” doesn’t make any more sense to me than visiting a lads’ mag page and complaining of sexism.
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On a related note, I found this article ‘The Problem With Men Explaining Things’ quite interesting:
“Men explain things to me, and other women, whether or not they know what they’re talking about. Some men.”
http://www.motherjones.com/media/2012/08/problem-men-explaining-things-rebecca-solnit
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Mansplaining, I believe isn’t it? I read a different article on it. Quite an interesting phenomenon.
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Leigh’s job requires her to ask pointed questions of pollies, as a result of doing her job well a liberal party relic called her a name. Im sure she can deal with it without Jamila launching into a triade of outrage. But when Bill Shorten(a Labor Minister) abuses a sales assistant for not having a hot pie she lets it pass…..who is standing up for the poor pie girl?
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The “poor pie girl” was in fact the female owner of the store, and both she and Shorten have acknowledged that the incident was the result of miscommunication due to some language difficulties (resulting in a mistaken belief of a rude anti-Government comment). With all due respect, (and not condoning Shorten’s remarks at all) I don’t think that that instance can be considered particularly similar to this – a (sexist) remark directed at Sales, purely for performing her job, by a person not involved in the matter.
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Are you serious? So if someone has an accent or a different opinion, that gives Mr Three Hundred Grand and a possible ALP leader an excuse to swear at, abuse and threaten the business of another person?
So, it wouldn’t have happened if the owner was a male, Caucasian ALP voter?
I’m sorry but what he did says volumes about Shorten and volumes about a feminist website that ignored it.
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Hi Stef,
No conspiracy here. Unfortunately we cannot cover every comment made by every politician. We already publish at least 8 posts per day with a very small editorial team.
And we have to apply a certain filter when we decide what news stories to cover within our mix.
So stories around the Prime Minister and the LOTO (leader of the opposition) take priority as they are the most significant figures on the political landscape.
Our choice of stories has nothing to do with any political bent as you are implying…..
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Well, except that Graeme Morris isn’t the Leader of the Opposition and doesn’t even have any formal or paid role with the Liberal Party.
I was actually more surprised you didn’t write about how Bill Shorton claimed it was hard to get by on his wage ($330K) so he knew how Newstart claimants felt. Now that was offensive…
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Oh and you failed to mention Abbott’s quotes criticising Morris.
Jamila likes to say an opinion isn’t bias and that is true but it doesn’t surprise me that the Coalition won’t submit articles for this site when articles are designed to make all Liberals come across as misogynist.
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If Abbott criticised Morris for making the reference, then this criticism should be noted and giving a proper run…..somewhere like…..on this site, perhaps ?
Not an unreasonable suggestion, surely ?
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Actually, if you read my comment, you’ll notice I specifically stated that I in no way condone the behaviour – it wasn’t acceptable from Shorten. However, I was making the point that it was a misunderstanding, as accepted by both sides, in response to a perceived insult to Shorten. Morris did not believe Sales had insulted HIM; his insult was simply bitterness at Abbott looking incompetent.
My comment in no way excused Shorten – its purpose was to reject your assertion that these incidents are entirely comparable.
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Hmm…my original response to this article seems to have gotten lost – any chance of finding it?
Basically, I don’t think the insult (as horrible as it was to hear) was gender based at all. I think if a male journalist had been the interviewer the response would have been something like “he can be a tough bastard in interviews”. Not justified either way, but I do think in this case Leigh Sales’ profession was as much a part of it as gender.
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“tough bastard” is kind of affectionate though, a compliment really. Nothing complimentary about “cow”.
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Jamila,
how are you expected to be taken seriously as a ‘strong, independent, female, journalist, career woman, blah blah’ when you openly expose your personal bias towards the ALP, and rubbish the LNP? You’ve also ‘fessed up to name calling, so what is the point now of this silly piece of tripe?
Maybe perhaps it was YOU who was losing the argument but you were too proud (like many modern women) to admit you were actually wrong and heaven forbid, concede an argument to a mere male; given that some thought?
Fyi, I despise TA; I think he is the worst LNP leader/ PM-in-lieu in recent history (post-Howard) and he was shamefully unprepared in that interview. I also think LS is one of this nation’s finest political journalists, irrespective of gender; although frankly, there’s not much competition.
Having said that, the interview centred around addressing the most irrelevant subject to TA; it should have been addressed directly to Marius Kloppers. Heaven knows why the mainstream media did not pick up on this, nor the fact that MK was quoted verbatim the day after answering all of Leigh’s questions and contradicting her position; which again, was ignored by mainstream media and this site; check the Internet, it’s there.
GM is an old fool and deserves to be ignored, he expressed a poor choice of words, which he thought were probably funny (they weren’t), but you hypersensitive prima donnas in the media (and on this site) took the bait.
LS is a far better journalist than what was displayed in that lightweight interview. It was quite obvious she was on the warpath with the first question, with her aggressive demeanour and tone; and NO, that doesn’t make her a bitch, or a cow, nor shrill, it displayed the characteristics of simply lazy research & journalism, and a clear personal bias against the LNP and TA.
Again, I despise TA, but please attack him on an issue which is actually relevant and for what he is actually accountable for in his professional role and not on a trivial subject.
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“how are you expected to be taken seriously as a ‘strong, independent, female, journalist, career woman, blah blah’ when you openly expose your personal bias”
I think people need to take a step back and go re-learn how the media works and how bias functions.
Bias is in EVERY piece of media. From straightforward ‘factual’ news articles to the op-ed page.
Every major news media organisation in this country aligns itself in some sort of way. Many journos, even those who write ‘news’ not ‘opinion’ have backgrounds that lend to bias – be it working for a politician, being a part of some cause, being a member of a group or their working history.
Bias is inescapable in the news media and to be so angry when you see it is bizarre. Everything you read is biased so why the upset? To say it is a contradiction to be a career woman/independent and biased is odd in the extreme when every other journo in the country is bringing their personal biases to the table too. This is how the media works. I don’t know who it is who keeps pushing the idea that media is somehow supposed to be without bias and bias is evil. It is impossible to be bias free as the media is written and run by humans. Go back to school and learn your media studies.
At least Jamila makes her work history and affiliations clear. Many other journo’s don’t. The ‘Jamila’s personal bias’ thing is getting old. It exists. We know. Read her pieces with that in mind. The end.
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Jamilla, please grow up. This is not the school yard. Leigh can look after herself and I wouldn’t be suprised if she cringed at your outrage. The cow comment is not what deserves our attention – the political debate is. Rise above. Mute point in my opinion.
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Kristine,
I have to disagree. Our values as a society are living breathing things. They change. It is not OK to call a woman a cow and hallelujuah for that.
The only way people like Graeme Morris and others will learn that THEY are out of step with public opinion is from these issues being aired and people on all sides of politics saying “NOT ON”.
Oh, and please don’t try to speak for Leigh.
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At the risk of repeating myself, again, I’ll ask where weas the outrage over Shorten’s abuse of woman when his pie wasn’t warm?
Did you cover Rudd’s abuse of the air hostess because he couldn’t straighten his hair?
The bias is glaring, Mia.
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This is a piece about sexism not egomaniacs. Neither is acceptable, but let’s keep to the issue at hand?
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Haha – you’re constantly banging on about that and don’t even have your facts straight! Hilarious!
Please see my reply to your other comment at the bottom of the page (it includes the woman’s quote!)
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I don’t always have time to get to the bottom of comments, Alyssa but I don’t give a damn if the woman has forgiven him. It makes no difference. He showed his true elitist colours and is a disgrace.
Do you think He or Rudd would have abused a man the way they did?
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That’s why I asked you to read it (and it was a reply to you – do you not receive those to your Inbox so that you don’t have to scroll around looking?), but judging by your response and your constant comments, I don’t think you read it properly.
“He didn’t say anything turns around, opens the door and goes out, then turns around again and says ‘You’ve lost business,” she said.
THAT DOESN’T SOUND LIKE
ABUSE
SWEARING AT
THREATENING HER LIVELIHOOD
THREATENING HER
It’s just a big beat up. He shouldn’t have said it. He was wrong. He shouldn’t have reacted like that when he was told they had no hot pies for his son. And he thought she insulted the PM to boot. He misheard her.
He apologised.
MOVE ON.
PLEASE – I am concerned for your mental health.
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AND
“News Ltd reported that on a flight from Port Moresby to Canberra Mr Rudd shouted at a 23-year-old attendant because his request for a special meat-free meal could not be met”
Wow, you’re on fire, Stef!
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But it is OK to call someone a Dinosaur? Or to suggest someone deserves less respect than animals? Totally inconsistent I’m afraid.
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Mia,
So you think it’s ok for Ms Sales to call Mr Morris a dinosaur?
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OK, to clarify, I didn’t speak for Leigh – I said I wouldn’t be suprised and also suggested she could look after herself as most people could given her position. To think the opposite is just as belittling as the suggestion in the argument.
I think there is way too much DRAMA perpetuated on this site and it doesn’t do the cause any justice. Move on (although as most cynics would agree (and to be clear, this is not speaking for all of them out there), the perpetuation and stirring the pot is your business model, so we shouldn’t expect any less.
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Hi Kristine,
If someone called you a cow would you not be appreciative of someone sticking up for you?
Is cringing the way you respond when someone sticks up for you? That’s bizarre…
Leigh is a strong and intelligent woman so I’m sure she can stick up for herself but it doesn’t mean we should ignore rude comments when they are made in public.
Graeme Morris calls her a cow publicly so he deserves to be put in his place publicly.
Also making comments by calling Leigh a cow DOES deserve our attention because it is totally unacceptable. BOTH men and women should not stand for it!
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You know what, I have had people hurl insults my way in my professional life and I have taken that in the context of the situation, the debate and an understanding of the pressure cooker environment. What I have learned and observed with much admiration is the way men are able to move on from such exchanges, because they understand that a job was being done and that it is not personal. This is the real world – if I jumped up and down about someone calling me a cow in the heat of the argument in the board room, I would be laughed out the door. That is a fact. Likewise, if it was a reversed situation.
“he called her a cow for doing her job” – kindergarten stuff. Amature hour. Victim or survivor.
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You mean moot point, right, Kristine?
Nice patronizing use of ‘grow up’ there as well.
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Well done on picking up on my spelling mistake Cold, there is a need for petty small mindedness on this site – you help perpetuate the angst in conversation that drives the drama.
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And how nice of you to carry it in further up the post in relation to a comment I made to someone else which was not connected to you.
You’ve gone some nerve, I’ll give you that, accusing me of perpetuating angst when you make a negative comment on another of my posts for no reason other than I pissed you off with a comment on your post.
It wasn’t a spelling mistake. It was a completely different word.
If you’re going to throw stones I suggest you make sure your roof isn’t made of glass.
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Heard of intuitive text, cold? Google it before you get out your red pen again.
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From Mia …… “I will refrain from using animal comparisons to describe him (Morrison) because I respect animals.’ Could write a thesis about that comment but instead I’ll just let it sit there for people to have a think about.
And re Jamila being a member of the Australian Labor Party and having worked for both the Gillard and Rudd governments …. gosh but that’s a surprise!!!
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I’m so tired of political outbreaks on mamamia. And I am not surprised that yet another editor or journo is a member of the ALP. Give me strength. I’m sorry but the minute I read that disclaimer at the bottom, all credibility for an otherwise feminism based article went out the window.
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Hi Maggie
We put that disclaimer in because in the past, readers have wanted me to be upfront about my political background and my party membership – and that’s fair enough.
However, I completely reject the idea that my political opinion is somehow less relevant because I’m a member of a Party. It’s still my opinion, my view and something I believe in.
I’m not saying everyone has to agree, I’m just giving my point of view. Bring on the debate if you disagree!
Jamila
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Like some people might be Jamila, I’m NOT tired of political discussion on Mamamia. In fact, I’d welcome more of it! I think it’s really important that women discuss issues in politics – we are all citizens in this country who are responsible for voting in our leaders so it’s important that we don’t leave politics to the news channels and news websites and talkback radio.
Regardless of people’s political allegiances, it’s clear that there are numerous issues that as women voters we feel passionate about – for me personally, these are childcare, education, health, the environment and the rights of women – they will differ from others, and that’s cool too. I will always enjoy reading commentary about these topics – in my view, discussion is one of the ways we can help politicians to enact change! I’m really looking forward to the stuff you’ve got coming up from Liberals – I personally would vote Labor if there was an election tomorrow because I’m in favour of the policies and direction Labor are taking in with regards to the issues that are important to me – and mostly because I don’t know much about the Liberal policies other than “we’ll remove the Carbon Tax”.
I understand you needed to disclose your relationship with the Labor party, however I completely disagree with some commenters that this has influenced your article – I wish people would see this for what it is (a public politician being rude and sexist – I mean what sort of example does that send women voters?!). I can’t imagine a more appropriate place than Mamamia to discuss the name calling of a female journalist in THE PUBLIC ARENA than here. You don’t have to be Labor or Liberal or Green or whatever to know that this was inappropriate.
I think you guys are doing a great job and I love spending time on the site each day. Keep it up! xx
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So you can’t be a credible feminist if you are a member of the Labor Party?
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Maggie, believe me when I tell you that Jamila doesn’t blindly follow the ALP. We have had many robust discussion in our office.
Trust me!
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Hi Maggie,
This post wasn’t actually about politics. It was about sexism.
Different.
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I like politics on MM. If you don’t like politics why read? Why try to deny others who are interested?
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to the contrary guest, I love a robust political conversation …espeically when based on facts and knowledge. But I suppose I’m not one to forecefully inflict my views on others, I think we all need to have a balaned diet of news and, as MM states, it’s not a news site – the problem is, plenty of people use it as such.
I just feel that many articles, even this one about sexism, become political and then a total mud slinging match while the lefts try to out-hate the rights, and so on. Probably I do ‘suck eggs a bit because I don’t like the mudslinging and hate reading outrageous claims about Tony Abbott, and even Gillard when they lack substance but are merely popular opinion or fashionable.. not because they have any idea about the decades of party history.
At any rate, my comment is only to assure Mia, Jamilla and Bec that most of my ‘tiredness’ is because of the automatic reaction from the readers and the fact that in general, most news and lifestyle organisations I come across seem to perpetuate it …
and as for name calling – it’s all wrong, we’ve all done it… but I dont think it has to be a direct relation to sexism.
My disclaimer… I didnt vote for Kevin Oh Seven and I didnt Vote for Julia Gillard. But I can admire her from the other side for some qualities, but still disagree with her politics.
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Jamila why do you always have to make this about politics? Are you looking to run? I am the CEO of a business and I know I get called things too. Is it right? No. But to continually put that this is Liberal v Labor is madness. If its all a political push for you i might as well bring up how when I was a HR Manager I used to get abusive phone calls all the time from the Union Directors…the left of politics. Not good enough from anyone.
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I didn’t see this article as being about politics – to me it’s about someone calling someone a derogatory name for no other reason than the fact that they did their job well. It just so happens that one is a person representing a political party, and it was conducted in a very public arena. If this was a private sector thing we probably wouldn’t have heard about it, because we wouldn’t have had the opportunity to – the comment would have been behind closed doors, not on radio – and if it was in public, I’m sure Mamamia would write about it if the person’s profile was big enough. Politics is something that affects all of us so this is why it seems newsworthy to me.
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Hear, hear!
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Hi Member. I’m not sure how I made it about politics? Political debate tends to be, you know, political by nature. Jamila
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Jamila, you said that this article was more about sexism rather than politics. But the moment you said “…got into a fairly heated argument about the state of the economy with a guy who was a member of the youth wing of the Liberal Party.” If indeed it was only about sexism, there would have been no need to specify this guy’s political affiliation, it would have sufficed to say it was a “guy”, no?
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Member, I agree that this is bigger than politics.
But I feel continually disillusioned that our politicians (on BOTH sides) resort to gender name calling! Don’t we expect more from the people we elect?
As a society if sexism and racism and many other isms (!) are things we detest, how is it that our politicians are so often the ones setting a bad example?
Know what I mean? Or do you think I’m putting too much pressure on our pollies to behave in a more mature, respectful fashion? (Genuine question)
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Hi Member,
Since Jamila has worked in Canberra for her entire career before coming to Mamamia, she will often reference her previous experiences just like I often refer to my experiences in magazines when it’s relevant.
Again, this wasn’t a post about politics, it was a post about sexism.
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Thanks for deleting my response to your point. Isn’t sexism in the real world more important?
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Ah yes, Leigh Sales, who said that Julia Gillard’s East Timor solution was a master stroke. Oh dear! Poor Miss Sales! Her interview with Tony Abbott was such a dud. She looked so crabby and cross. (She only looks wonderfully happy when she interviews her Labor loves. So tiresome.)
Mr Abbott was proven to be right in his answers and now Miss Sales has omelette on her face but to all her lefty admirers she’s the best of the best because she had a go at that naughty Mr Abbott. (Marius Kloppers vindicated Tony Abbott in his speech in London the following day but who cares. Certainly not Miss Sales or her luvvies.)
Maggie Thatcher was called terrible names in the 1980′s. She didn’t once cry out ‘sexist or misogynist’ (hello Julia Gillard) or demean herself by calling the offender names, like dinosaur (hello Miss Sales).
I’m so over women in high places who don’t know whether they’re victims or leaders. Labor women and their cheer squad ladies in the media are up there with the worst in terms of using the female card every time they can (hello Tanya Plibersek). They’re also up there with the worst when it comes to name-calling (‘snivelling grub’ from Miss Gillard to Tony Abbott).
If Miss Sales wants to use the ageist card, her luvvies shouldn’t feel too aggrieved for her. She’s tough and can take it. Anyway Morrison was actually giving her a compliment when he used the word ‘cow’ in relation to her. But he was a dill and very foolish to do so. My suggestion to anyone on the conservative side of politics …stay away from anything that can give the lefty women cause to scream ‘sexist.’ Just let them play their nasty name-calling games all on their own.
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Gosh you’re grumpy.
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I reckon!
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Anonymoose and twomummies, I’m presently looking after my beautiful 2 year old grandson.The birds are chirping, the flowers are budding, my dinner is cooked, my report for work is finished, my husband adores me and I’m in ‘tip top’ shape. Nah, I’m anything but grumpy. Cheers
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I wouldn’t call you grumpy, I’d call you SPOT ON.
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No….I’m Grumpy !
I agree with Tip Top for the record.
Now that’ll make a few of ‘em grumpy, all right !
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Ummm Tip Top are you sure you were watching the same interview as the rest of us?
Leigh Sales looked professional and composed throughout the interview, save for the flicker of a grin you saw every time she had Abbott backed in to a corner.
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Jess, I thought her head was about to explode. She looked anything but calm or professional.
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Tip Top,
The world was a very different place when Margaret Thatcher was PM and I am personally glad that it is.
In 2012 we have learned many things about sexism, misogyny and things like bullying, sexual harassment, domestic violence, drink driving etc etc etc
Just saying “Nobody complained back then” is a ridiculous and spurious point to make.
And anyone who doesn’t think that calling someone a cow for doing their job is sexist and inappropriate? They have rocks in there heads.
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‘The world was a very different place when Margaret Thatcher was PM’ ……… yep it was Mia. And Maggie Thatcher copped it sweet just like men today have to cop it sweet! You don’t see or hear the men boo hooing about the names they are called. Not nice stuff at all but they cop it. Have a look at what the lefty luvvies used to call John Howard. Toilet stuff! And check out what Julia Gillard regularly calls Tony Abbott. Disgusting and foul stuff! He takes it ‘like a man! Some women want to dish it out but they don’t know how to cope when it gets dished back at them. And the 1980′s was post many of the women’s lib battles. You would have been a child then (?) but I remember, and people were calling out ‘sexist’ loud and clear but not Maggie Thatcher. Maybe that’s why so many people thought she governed like a man!
‘…..I’m personally glad that it is’. Well some things are better but some are much worse.
‘In 2012 we have learned many things about sexism, misogyny and things like bullying, sexual harassment, domestic violence, drink driving etc etc etc’. Wow you’ve lumped a lot in there. Let me tell you the 1980’s was not the dark ages! I think some of the worst bullies I have seen have been women and the worst thugs have been union men bullying other union men and women (hello shovel at Kathy Jackson’s home). Shameful stuff!
‘Just saying “Nobody complained back then” is a ridiculous and spurious point to make’ And who Mia, might I ask, said that? Hmm? Not me. Go back and read what I said about Maggie Thatcher. I did NOT say ‘Nobody complained back then.’
‘And anyone who doesn’t think that calling someone a cow for doing their job is sexist and inappropriate? They have rocks in there (sp?) heads’. Mia I think you’ve actually crossed a line here. I find you quite rude. I DID NOT say what you are accusing me of. I can assure you I don’t have rocks in my head. It’s a very nice and thoughtful head. And as far as name-calling goes ….. I rest my case.
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Many people thought that Thatcher ‘governed like a man’, she says. Wow, go Maggie, she must have done a really good job to earn that sobriquet! And we’re arguing about sexist language? Good job there. Give me a break. Pot. Kettle. You know the rest.
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Jimmy’s Girl, you missed Tip Top’s point. Looks like it went right over your head.
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Dear Mamamia, are you pitching yourselves to advertisers as a thought leader on women’s issues? As the foremost website that women in Australia go to for their news and content?
If you answer yes then I’d like to tell you and your advertisers that as far as I am concerned, you are not a thought leader, I resent many of your attempts to stir up controversy where none should exist (he called her a cow – case in point) and I find your responses to comments posted on here (you know, the ones that call you out or challenge your points) to be insanely offensive. The backhanded comments doused in sarcasm are transparent – editorial integrity is upheld as long as you agree with Mia, comments are regularly deleted if you don’t, and the one’s where Mia thinks she has the upper hand are upheld and all hale the minions who agree with everything she says.
I am a woman, I am a mother, I have a career, I am a wife – and I find myself at polarising odds with so many articles on here. Instead of a healthy debate, a robust discussion, we have mia land. Which is fine if that is what you want – but please don’t dress this site up to be a mouth-peace or thought leader for the women of today. Because you are not. I may check back in here again from time to time but in the meantime, you have lost me.
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I find your comment quite offensive.
“I’m so over women in high places who don’t know whether they’re victims or leaders and their cheer squad ladies in the media are up there with the worst in terms of using the female card every time they can.”
We need to identify sexist slurs in order to squash them.
If you believe in equality at all then why aren’t you backing fellow women?
The thing is, women in high places are being put down because of their sex too often. So yes, they are a victim in that case.
We need to ALWAYS address sexism just like we should with racism.
You say “nobody complained back then” but they did. Why do you think we have progressed at all.
I don’t know if it is your intention, but you appear totally ungrateful for the things women in the past have fought for. Therefore, as a woman I find your rant offensive.
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And I in turn find you offensive, Izzy. Please don’t quote Mia’s words back at me as if they were my words. They are her words. Not mine. I did NOT say “nobody complained back then.” This is a total manipulation and distortion by her. In fact it is a lie. And now you’re repeating it.
I don’t have the time to write anything futher now because my grandson has just woken up.
Just out of interest, the greatest bullies I have known have been women. And they were vile and abusive. Put that into your offensive little mix.
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Anyone would have taken your comment about Margaret Thatcher as saying nobody complained back then.
In every comment you have harped on and on about how “they never complained” they tough it out” “you don’t see them boo-hooing” etc etc How were we meant to interpret that?
HYPOTHETICALLY, your little grandsons get called names that are pretty fickle like Leigh being called a cow, would you tell them to suck it up and get over it or would you defend them?
Just saying.
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Izzy, you are Mamamia at it’s worst
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Izzy, if you were my little daughter or grand daughter or sister or mother or maiden aunt and someone called you a COW. I would be very distressed for you. I would also be there to support you. But if you had a job on ABC TV and someone used the word cow in the context that it was used in relation to Leigh Sales, I would see it quite differently. I would understand that it was meant that you were a tough interviewer. I would also understand that you were a professional and could take it and give it back in spades. But you’re just Izzy whose comments I find low and offensive.
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Ageist? Come ON.
Calling someone a dinosaur has nothing to do with their age – it’s a term for someone whose views are outdated, not a term for an old person.
As it explains in the dictionary, if you’d care to consult one: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dinosaur?s=t
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Oh come on! It is ageist and disrespectful. It was also a pretty lame come back.
Tip Top, I enjoyed reading your comments. They made a lot of sense to me.
I think I’ve outgrown this site. The last few articles have made me realise that I’m being spoon fed here.
Thank you Tip Top
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So did you bother reading the definition? There is NOTHING about age in there – you can’t just make up your own meanings for words!
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“Mr Abbott was proven to be right in his answers and now Miss Sales has omelette on her face”
Why debate someone to whom facts mean nothing? None of what Tony Abbott said matches the facts, yet you claim he did.
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