Researchers connected to the Circumcision Foundation of Australia have presented what they claim is the world’s first evidence-based policy for male circumcision saying the benefits vastly outweigh the complications, which they say occur in less than one per cent of cases. Lead author Professor Brian Morris, from the University of Sydney, claimed the evidence was now so clear it was time to act.
“The evidence in favour of infant circumcision is now so strong that advocating this simple, inexpensive procedure for baby boys is about as effective and safe as childhood vaccination,” he said. “In contrast to the comments of opponents, the scientific evidence shows no adverse effects on sexual function, sensitivity, satisfaction or sensation, if anything the opposite. Many common childhood conditions, including kidney damage, will become very rare if baby boys are circumcised in the first weeks of life.”
Big call.
Before we jump into the tug-of-war that is the circumcision debate, let’s be clear that Professor Brian Morris is an advocate for circumcision. But the policy paper is based on studies and research from around the world that he didn’t personally conduct. So even if you doubt Prof Morris, the data still exists and has been used to navigate a difficult health concern around the world.
And it’s not an easy one for many parents. Male circumcision can be both a cultural norm, a religious tradition or something parents choose because, well, they had to choose something and it seemed like a good idea at the time. But there’s always been a bit of debate about that one. Some people aren’t cut and choose to do it as an adult. Guy Ritchie was reportedly circumcised to fall in line with then wife Madonna’s religious beliefs.
Wonder how he feels about that now…
Shall we see what the research shows?
The Study
Infant male circumcision: an evidence-based policy statement examined evidence from around the world to see whether male circumcision was all that necessary. Here’s what it found.
Urinary tract infections
More uncircumcised boys got urinary tract infections than circumcised boys, especially as babies in the first six months of life when UTIs are most common. The prevalence was 1-4% in those without the snip compared to less than 0.2% in those who had been cut.
Hygiene
The study claims hygiene is easier to maintain in circumcised boys who don’t have the added burden of foreskin to navigate when cleaning.
HIV
The paper cites other studies which show male circumcision affords a 60 per cent protection against HIV. Other factors over time increase that protection to around 75 per cent, an effect the authors say makes it nearly as effective as the influenza vaccine. The Centre for Disease Control (CDC) in the United States has touted male circumcision as a cost-saver for the money the country spends on treating HIV.
Other Sexually Transmitted Infections (STIs)
The paper says: “Male circumcision protects against many, but not all, sexually transmitted infections (STIs). In the case of syphilis, genital herpes (HSV-2) and chancroid, a meta- analysis of 26 studies, including 2 from Australia, found lower prevalence in circumcised men.”
Cervical cancer in women
The paper looked at studies which showed the risk of contracting cervical cancer was four times higher if a woman had a high-risk male partner (more than six sexual partners) who was uncircumcised. “An inverse relation exists between Male Circumcision (MC) and cervical cancer prevalence across 118 countries,” the paper stated. Circumcision in male partners also helps reduce rates of STIs in women, such as genital warts and chlamydia.
Sexual function
The study found ‘no adverse effects’ on sexual function, performance or satisfaction of men who were circumcised.
The Conclusion
“The current scientific evidence is more than adequate to support a recommendation of male circumcision in Australia and other developed countries as a low-risk, highly beneficial procedure that is best performed in infancy using a local anesthetic. Infant male circumcision should appear on the check-list of decisions responsible parents need to make for their children.”
Professor Morris said: It is now up to State Governments to ensure than bans on elective infant male circumcision in public hospitals are lifted without delay. And it is essential that the Federal Government revises the Medicare rebate so that this procedure is affordable for low-income families. The costs saved will be enormous, as this policy statement shows that half of uncircumcised males will suffer an adverse medical condition over their lifetime, and many will die as a result of diseases preventable by circumcision. Benefits outweigh minor risks by over 100 to 1.”
Opponents
In the United States particularly, a groundswell of circumcision opponents has been finding a voice. The Intactivists, as they are known, argue male circumcision – like that in females – should be considered genital mutilation and an act of torture.
This from the Miami New Times:
“Foremost, the anti-circumcision crowd believes boys should be able to decide what happens to their bodies — especially in the case of a medically unnecessary amputation. They have likened circumcision to female genital mutilation — the cutting of a girl’s genitals to kill her libido or make her “clean” — which is practiced in parts of Africa and the Middle East but condemned by most developed nations.
Circumcision critics charge that most arguments for the procedure are based on flawed logic. The idea that a child should look like his father? Well, who goes around comparing penises with his dad? The notion that the child will be called an “anteater” in the locker room? They liken it to shame that used to be applied to other once-taboo customs such as interracial marriage. An online “intactivism shop” — where “only the prices are rounded off” — sells T-shirts and bumper stickers declaring “hooded warrior” and “anteater pride.”
Not all intactivists have such a cute sense of humor. Some accuse doctors of having a financial motivation for performing circumcisions. There are websites that “out” celebrities as intact and villainize researchers who have publicly promoted circumcision. Some even go so far as to accuse individuals of circum-fetish — being sexually aroused by circumcision.
Last summer, intactivists in San Francisco scored a win when they collected enough petition signatures to get a measure on the ballot that would ask voters to ban infant circumcision. The victory backfired, however; the ballot measure was stricken by a judge. After a huge outcry — especially by Jews, who found the notion anti-Semitic — the state legislature came down forcefully, passing a law that prevents local municipalities from attempting to ban circumcision.”
Cosmetic circumcision is currently banned in all Australian public hospitals and the Queensland Law Reform Commission found that, strictly speaking, routine male circumcision could be interpreted as a criminal offence under the criminal code. This was one view based on a strict reading of the letter of the law and circumcisions continue to take place there with no prosecutions registered.
The Australian Medical Association neither discourages nor explicitly recommends male circumcision in infants.
So, are circumcisions a cut above the rest or genital mutilation? What experience can you add to the debate?







Comments
469 Comments so far
We’re hearing from a lot of women, a lot, and all I’m reading is blah, blah, blah.
I’m a 38 year old male, circumcised at birth. If it hurt I have no memory of it and nothing else in my life, including sex, has been adversely affected. If I’m “desensitised” by it then I doubt I could have stood the feelings if I wasn’t circumcised.
On the subject of having to do it/letting them do it when they are older, our family has experience with this too.
My nephew had to be circumcised at 10 years of age due to his foreskin being too tight, it was done under general anistetic, and he had pain for about 2 weeks while it heeled. He remembers his operation and from what my sister says is still feels awkward about it three years on.
It doesn’t hurt to have it done as a new-born, or if it does, it doesn’t leave a lasting impression throughout life. Your kid isn’t likely to hate you for it. And for the guy who was circumcised as an adult of course your felt some sensitivity loss. You lost a bunch of nerves. But yes, as others replied to you. We who were circumcised at birth no no difference. It’s all good for me.
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“If I’m “desensitised” by it then I doubt I could have stood the feelings if I wasn’t circumcised.” Gold!
What do the circumcised male intactavists think they’re missing out on having been circumcised, I wonder?
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I talked to one (a circumcised intactivist as you call them) and he was very resentful at the procedure being performed on him and equated it with child abuse. He resents his parents for it quite strongly well into adulthood.
For the record I’m an uncircumcised man and feel very strongly that no-one will be taking a scapel to any sons I will have.
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My nephew had to be circumcised at 10 years of age due to his foreskin being too tight, it was done under general anistetic, and he had pain for about 2 weeks while it heeled. He remembers his operation and from what my sister says is still feels awkward about it three years on.
My son also had it done at that age with a general anistetic (yeah I can’t spell either). He had the following day off school, but after that he was fine with no lingering pain.
My husband was circumcised but didn’t want it for our son.
Seeing my son did end up needing to be circumcised, I’m glad that he was older and could understand what was going to happen and why it needed to be done, and that he could have it done while he was asleep…I’m sure that it was a lot kinder and less traumatic than if he was ‘done’ as a new born baby.
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We did it for health reasons as outlined above. I didn’t tell anyone. NOw they only know if they happen to see him with no pants on. People get kind of nuts about this issue and I just didn’t want to open up our personal decision as a family to the opinions of others.
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I always thought it was really important to have matching penises in the family but when my son was about 7 he asked why his penis was different to his friends.
None of them are circumcised – he and my husband are.
I’d never thought of the friends thing before. Still, I’m glad we did it.
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matching penises? really?
do you dye their hair and buy them matching clothes too?
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“I always thought it was really important to have matching penises in the family.”
That’s the quote of the week!
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Bloody hilare!
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That was the argument most mums went with when I had my sons. They wanted their kids to match their dads. Hindsight is such an interesting thing. I didn’t circumcise my sons (even though their dad is) and my 13 year old told me the other day that in fact he’s not interested in matching his Dad, he’s just happy he matches his friends! LOL We tend to think that our kids want to feel like part of the family if we’re all the same (although extending that to the penis is taking it too far IMO), but really…how many of us really care if we look the same as our parents? Especially in the genitalia department? If that same argument was made for girls (and given the rise in labia ‘enhancement’ it’s not outside the realm of possibility), we’d look like very warped individuals.
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Why did you feel they needed matching penises? That’s extremely immature… This is exactly why I don’t like the idea of circumcision. Fine, do it for religious reasons or if you really think it will be a good health choice but for looks? You are not mature enough to have a child or be having sexual relations.
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My boyfriend had to get circumcised at 22 after his foreskin tore during sex.
Put him out of action for weeks and he says it’s the worst pain he has ever experienced.
It was before I met him but he says he was terrified to have sex for months afterwards.
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Gaaah, I crossed my legs at that one!
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My eldest nephew was left uncircumcised until…..
He had a very nasty UTI which he never fully recovered from until he had the snip. Finally at the age of 7 months he was back to being his happy self with no problems or issues.
Even the pediatrician had said that due to the foreskin not being able to retract back (in my nephews situation he had a condition called Phimosis which is where the foreskin did not retract back – which could of caused pain later in life) that the bacteria grew to cause this issue.
It was a no brainer to have another Circumsicion with my second nephew.
I have a Jewish partner who respects Circumsicion not because of her religion but because of health reasons. We are one of many people who voice our views about this delicate issue.
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Im not doubting your story, your nephews foreskin probably had an infection, but they’re born with a foreskin attached to the head of the penis. It gradually detaches over the next 4 or so years. Phimosis is usually an adults/young mans illness.
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THIS: “Say I am having a shower and as I am toweling myself off my foreskin gets pulled back, revealing the head of my penis. When I begin to dress, if the head is still out and it touches the fabric of my underwear, it is so uncomfortable and sensitive that I have to pull my foreskin back down immediately before I can finish dressing. That’s how sensitive it is. And that’s also how much sensitivity you lose when you are circumcised.” (http://alancumming.com/blog.php?id=525)
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Oh, please.
Both circumcised and uncircumcised men all have to do times tables in their heads or think of ‘Margaret Thatcher naked on a cold day’ (as Austin Powers would say) when they’re having sex so that they don’t come too quickly. I’ve never once heard a circumcised man complain of a lack of sensitivity.
In fact, Sam de Brito once wrote a piece about circumcision. He revealed that he was circumcised and that he enjoyed more than enough sensitivity down there.
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Thank you for covering this. It is very interesting.
I think circumcision would be a ridiculous procedure if its only premise was religious tradition. However if there are medical benefits then that is another story.
That said I don’t think it is a natural choice to make – I don’t think it should be a necessity or “the norm”, even if the research shows lower health risks associated with it. After all, it is an invasive, irreversible medical procedure. Parents should make the decision, knowing all the facts, without being pressured either way.
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For me it is simple. I have no right to put my son through that. I am hardly concerned about him catching a uti. To think circumcision is a type of protection is stupid.
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Yeah! Because a reduction in transmissible diseases is stupid hey?!! Because considering the rate of STIs and HIV in our community, it’s just unthinkable! If measles, chickenpox, whooping cough were at this level in society people would be up in arms about doing something about it. But because it’s something we don’t talk about openly (we don’t discuss our problems ‘down there’), people can ‘choose’ to ignore it.
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Well, there is the option of being responsible for their sexual health and WEARING A CONDOM. Or, here’s a novel approach, get to know the sexual partner and their health a bit before jumping in the sack? But no….it’s far easier to cut off skin off the penis so that your darling little boy can look forward to being sexually irresponsible like everyone else.
Give me a break.
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Yeah, because that’s working *really* well! Aren’t all of our darling little boys and girls doing SO well at protecting themselves!
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There has been no quality studies of complication rates in neonatal circumcision so quoting figures on safety is a nonsence, there has been no prospective data collection of complcations. There is NO database or recording process for complications of circumcision for any cases I may see so they wont know about cases I see or anyone else sees. I certainly have seen many complications of neonatal circumcision some quite serious, I have NEVER seen any significant disease or complication of a child or adolescent NOT having had circumcision. The benefits are largely about risks of HIV sexually aquired in later life and nearly all this benefit would be in high prevalence countries, certainly NOT Australia. IF there were to be an arguement for circumcision for this reason then the only ethical responce would be for it to be done in adolescence with informed consent. It is very interesting that the advocates are all public health/ STD/ HIV clinicians- not paediatricians or ethicists. And as to the data about infant UTIs and kidney damage, the association is only there in abnormal kidneys/ urinary tracts and even then the data suggest that the progression to kidney function damage is unrelated to the incidence of UTIs and is likely related to having abnormal kidneys in the first place. Re- Hygiene- what garbage, it is like saying people should have their nose removed because then they would not have to blow their nose. Re- cervical cancer- the rates are already falling a will fall much more because of a much better public health initiative- HPV vaccine. The recommendations are now for boys to receive this vaccine also which will further decrease the risk as well as decreasing risk or some male cancers. You could use this very poor quality arguement to say that everyone should have their appendix removed as a child- this would be 100% successful in preventing appendicitis in later life so hey we should do it to everyone!! The only reason that these guys get away with even trying to be taken seriously on this is because circumcision of infant boys has been a common cultural practice in some groups/communities, they use arguements that would never even get to publication stage through peer review if they were talking about a proposed new practice or procedure. Female circumcision is common in some cultures and communities, that doesnt make it right or ethical.
Dr Rdo McClymont,
Paediatrician & Adolescent Physician
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Great response Rod. My husband is also a Paediatrician (Chris Seton, I think you might know each other) and he agrees wholeheartedly with your view. We didn’t even contemplate circumcising our son when he was born 21 months ago.
It’s great to see an informed medical opinion on Mamamia and it’s really needed to express the other side of this debate.
Chris would have written something similar to what you wrote but he never gets his hands on the iPad!
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My daughter was a patient of Dr Seton, he is fabulous.
If Dr Seton says no to this issue, that would be enough for me (but I didn’t have my son circumcised anyway).
I would be also interested to know Dr Howard Chilton’s views on this matter. Surely the opinion of respected practising clinicians should be given more air and weight in this debate?
Edited to add : for me it came down to a consent issue. I was not convinced I had the right to do this thing to my little boy. I think anyone who cites adult health issues as a reason to circumcise should be made to watch a video of a circumcision before they say it doesn’t hurt. Children don’t remember being hit or shaken by their parents when they’re babies either – it doesn’t make it right.
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Ginni – here is another medical opinion on MM. This article originally appeared on St Vincents website.
“Alex Wodak, writing in The Medical Journal of Australia, described the removal of the foreskin as a ‘surgical vaccine’ against HIV/AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases.
Wodak, from Sydney’s St Vincent’s Hospital, said doctors were wrong to discourage circumcision and urged the health department to subsidise the operation.
Queensland is alone among the six states in providing a rebate for parents who pay for circumcision for male babies.
‘A wealth of research has shown that the foreskin is the entry point that allows HIV to infect men during intercourse with an infected female partner,’ he said.
‘Circumcision of males is now referred to by many as surgical vaccine against a wide variety of infections and adverse medical conditions over the lifetime.’
Wodak said that, with no likelihood of an HIV vaccine in the next 20 years, authorities should be active in removing the stigma from male circumcision.
‘If we’re trying to prevent an epidemic in the 2030s, we should start thinking about this in the 2010s,’ he said.
Less than 20 per cent of Australian boys are circumcised, a proportion that has risen from 13 per cent in the last decade.”
http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2010/09/19/5014886.htm
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Thank you for an expert voice on the matter.
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Thank you for this response. I was hoping someone with expertise would comment on this.
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I am incredibly surprised that a doctor would post this – as I stated above, considering the rate of STIs and HIV in our community, it’s just unthinkable that we wouldn’t promote something that reduces transmission rates of disease. The method of circumcision has changed over the years so it is much safer than it used to be. If measles, chickenpox, whooping cough etc. were at this level in society people would be up in arms about doing something about it. But because it’s something we don’t talk about openly (we don’t discuss our problems ‘down there’), people can ‘choose’ to ignore it or take the moral high ground about removing a small piece of skin. Getting HPV, HIV etc. can’t be treated with antibiotics and considering that our safe sex message clearly isn’t working due to the high rates in our society (which mothers seem to think will solve everything on this forum), then I’m very surprised that something that is starting to show evidence of lowering transmission rates is a bad thing for a doctor.
I’m also incredibly suprised you brought up female circumcision in your post which you *know* is completely different for many, many reasons. It reduces the quality and viability of your argument.
There are more studies (published, peer-reviewed) that support circumcision and I’m sure you are aware of them.
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Hi B, I think it is very dangerous to bank on circumcision to reduce the spread of HIV and STIs in our community. The circumcision lobby would have you believe that removing the foreskin reduces risk of contraction to the male to 0, but even their own research (cited above) says it reduces risk to 60%. 60% protection is by no means a guarentee against life threatening infections like HIV. A big danger from this kind of research is it leads people to believe because they are circumcised they have immunity from infection and also because they are “clean” their parters are protected. Circumcised men can still contract HIV and STIs, and their partners are not afforded any protection from said infections because of the lack of foreskin. Circumcision is no substitute for condom use.
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Of course it’s not a guarantee – it’s about *reduction*. No one is claiming this is perfect. But just like vaccination isn’t perfect in spreading disease it’s about the gradual reduction and transmission in society.
Of course it’s no substitute for a condom and I’m not suggesting it is. But this is obviously either not working or not getting through based on infection rates in Australia.
I’m also disappointed in Dr McClymont’s response because it denigrates the ‘advocates’ who are all ‘public health/ STD/ HIV clinicians’. This is a very narrow view of the enormous cost to both the PBS, mental health and public health system in treating these serious and deadly diseases.
While Dr McClymont may be busy treating some of the complications of circumcision, there is a vast and enormous army of health professionals trying to put a lid on the infection rate of these diseases in Australia.
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B
The way to prevent HIV and STI’s is by using protection always or(and this is a very unpopular idea in society)not having random sex with strangers.Circumcision will not prevent these diseases.
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Yes,, because as stated before, this is working SO well!!
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But you could actually argue (as I think the commenter above has) that rather than reduce the rates of infection, the false sense of security that some circumsised men may gain from believing they are more adequately protected than they are, may lead them to engage in more risk-taking behaviour than they otherwise would, thereby negating the original lower risk. If you see what I mean.
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Like the false sense of security vaccination gives us? That if a newborn contracts whooping cough it *has* to have come from someone unvaccinated? I support vaccination, but I’m not delusional that it works all the time – you can and still do catch these diseases. People also need booster shots which there are *many* people in our community who don’t realise this. People also think that cleaning a penis will rid it of all harmful bacteria – science 101 will tell you that this is not the case. People also think the cervical cancer vaccine will protect you from HPV – it only protects against a certain number of strains. This article is all about reducing transmission rates but this seems to be lost on most people.
HH – ‘having random sex with strangers’ is not how a vast number of people catch diseases. It comes from people they trust and love who are lying to them. It comes from believing that you are in a committed relationship when you apparently aren’t. When you start to hear the stories of regular, normal people who have their lives busted open this way ALL the time who then have these diseases for life, you start to view it very differently.
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Desperate to know the countries in which these studies were done and the size of the sample group???
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There are plenty of studies that support this – it’s easy to access most of them through google scholar. Please only refer to peer-reviewed articles in trusted journals such as the British Medical Journal, Medical Journal of Australia, Journal of the American Medical Association etc.
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Let’s face it, we wouldn’t be having this discussion at all if a rather barbaric religious practice from, er… the Stone Age perhaps… hadn’t somehow managed to persist into the twenty first century.
Imagine a world where circumcision was just an obscure procedure used to treat the rare occasions where it is medically indicated. Suppose a research study then found that hacking off your foreskin gave you a slightly reduced risk of disease. Do you think *anyone* would consider it a good idea to do it routinely?
[Full disclosure: I am a circumcised father with an uncircumcised son who never considered cutting off his son's ears to make sure he washed behind them]
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Completely agree. The argument that it’s a religious practice really annoys me. A lot of hideous things are done in the name of religion. Religion doesn’t make them okay.
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So many opinions of its right and wrong. The same as vaccinations and smacking ….some people think they are right some people think they are wrong. It’s a personal choice for the parents and noone has any right to tell someone that it’s wrong if it was so wrong it would be illegal. This is the society everyone has different views and opinions and I’m damn sure not one person will change my mind about the decision I made with my son. If you think it’s right or wrong that’s your decision it is one of many decisions you may make as a parent and only time will tell if you think you made the right choice
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I still haven’t heard any compelling research. ie – something that can’t be avoided another way like using a condom and basic hygeine.
I have no trouble inflicting pain on my children lol. Vax, controlled crying. Whatever is good for you I’ll do, so its not like I’d be squeamish about it.
Im also pro reserach and pro doctor and medicine. When they said I had to put my smooshy 18 month old under an anaesthetic and put grommets in, I did. In June, she’ll be having her tonsils and adnoids out.
If a couple of doctors ever tell me my son will be healthier without his foreskin than with it, I’ll take it off. Not a moment before and hopefully never.
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Because using a condom ISN’T working! Look at the rates of STI and HIV in our society! These diseases (obviously) can have terrible consequences! Why does everyone think our current rate of infection in our society is ok? This absolutely baffles me.
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Genuinely interested, can someone please explain the tradition behind Jewish boys all being circumcised?
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Comes from the story of Abraham, the first official Jew, in a sense. (read the story in Genesis if you’re truly interested)
Abraham was told to have himself and all the other males in his household (children, servants etc) circumcised as a sign of the covenant between God and him and all his descendants.
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Thankyou. Very much appreciated.
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The Royal Australian College of Physicians (RACP) published their position statement regarding infant circumcision in September 2010. (See: http://www.racp.edu.au/page/policy-and-advocacy/paediatrics-and-child-health). Interestingly, 154/199 of Prof Morris’ references were published prior to this date. The RACP, along with most other international peak bodies, do NOT recommend routine infant circumcision in first world countries. How is it that the RACP and Prof Morris & Co can claim to have thoroughly appraised the literature yet arrive at such vastly different conclusions?
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Because someone who works for the ‘Circumcision Foundation of Australia’ is not exactly unbiased on the issue.
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I always thought that I if I had boys I would have them circumcised, the boys in our family are as is my husband so I thought naturally we would so the same. Once I was pregnant I began to have my doubts and kept asking myself if there was any real valid reason to have it done apart from cosmetic reasons. Once I had my first son it was a very easy decision to make. He was just so beautiful and perfect there was no way I was going to do anything to change him .Then when son number 2 came along I didn’t even give it a second thought. Sam (our first son) did get a urinary tract infection when he was about 6 months (one of those exploding poo’s got us!). The first doctor we saw prescribed a steroid cream to help stretch the skin and mentioned that we would probably need to have it operated on in the future. We got a second opinion from our paed who got us to “catch” a urine sample for testing just to make sure it wasn’t anything really sinister and in the meantime suggested a bit more care at washing time with soap and warm water and whadya know… business as usual in 3 days and no issues since
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I think circumcision is wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. It’s been said before, but I’ll say it again: unless it is medically necessary it is genital mutilation.
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This is still a biased point of view, regardless of how neutral Profesor Morris has tried to be. There are thousands of findings out there; obviously the pro-circumcision lobby will tend to choose research that favour circumcision.
My husband was Muslim but after seeing the barbarity involved in male circumcision while living in his country of birth, nothing could have persuaded me to inflict this on my boys (2). Noone in my family has ever been circumcised and noone has suffered from any of the conditions (cervical cancer etc) outlined above. My boys are now 11 and 15 respectively and have NO PROBLEMS EVER – NO UTIs, no problems with foreskins and I have taught both of them how to clean them. My experience with uncircumcised men is that they have more problems sexually – and as for the botched circumcisions that I saw while living overseas … it astounds me that any mother could willing mutilate their child.
When custody orders were being drawn up for my children, I specifically included that neither boy was to be circumcised. Strong opinions possibly but having lived for a long time in a culture which values this practice, I saw first hand how horrific it was and I could not truly claim to love my boys if I allowed such a barbaric practice to be carried out.
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To me it is like having a little one’s tonsils removed before they are 10 weeks old., or whenever the cutoff age is for circumcision…just because they could possibly one day in the future get tonsilitis and got forbid they get put through the trauma of a tonsilectomy at an age where they can remember the pain………………..
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I would have LOVED to have had my tonsils out before I was too old to know any better. I wouldn’t miss them. They cause me quite a bit of grief, but I’m too chicken to have an adult tonsillectomy – not to mention the cost and time off work.
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There are plenty of other experts in the public health field who disagree with Professor Morris and co, and and interpret the research findings differently.
Dr Robert Darby makes a lot of sense (I think).
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=13123&page=0
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As a registered nurse and the mother of a boy who is circumcised the medical benefits as outlined above do have merit. My husband had to be circumcised at 5 due to a medical issue involving the foreskin being unable to retract, he still remembers the pain from the procedure and the dressing changes. My neighbors 3 boys all have had the same issue with the last boy having to have the procedure at 10. We have 18 years olds come in for the procedure before entering the defence forces ( policy). Older men who have ongoing infections needing this to be done. My husband and my decision to have our son circumcised at day 3 was done based on medical research and advice. If it was a truely unnecessary procedure the medical association would have it outlawed, personal belief can not outweigh medical research or benefits. That is why the option exists for parents to decide what is best for their child in collaboration with trained health professionals.
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you have to be circumcised to enter the defence force? wow, I didnt know that.
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No, not true.
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And if removing an infant girl’s clitoral hood achieved a potential health benefit, however modest, that should be advocated, too? I would think not!
Quite frankly, I’m exactly as interested in the health benefits of routine circumcision as I am in those of routine appendectomies. Infant circumcision without immediate medical need is a human rights issue, whatever the sex of the infant having their genitals altered – just ask the many adult men who deeply resent their body having been so intimately and profoundly modified without their consent!
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My three sons are not circumcised. Their father is, he was done as a young boy (aged 5). He cant remember the pain. The reason for doing it at that age was that his father had had some nasty infections, it was recommended, so he and his three sons were all done at the same time. My husbands older brother still carries extraordinary anger towards his parents for the pain he remembers experiencing during and after the event.
I suspect, despite this study, current practice around circumsicion (ie that it is reaosnably rare procedure and difficult to find a practitioner) will continue. I think debate about it has moved on and on a large scale people won’t be getting their sons done – for example, it wasn’t even raised as a possibility for my three boys in any pre-birth medical discussions – we would have actively had to seek information. I also suspect that unless an adult male is recommended to undergo circumcision for medical reasons, he won’t do it – men are precious enough about their ‘bits’! As for the change rooms in 5-10-15 years time, let’s all hope our kids are more tolerant about the religiosity or otherwise rationale given for circumscision than some of our current members of society. Parents choose what they think is best for their child, according to their morals, values and personal ethics code. For some that includes circumcision, for others it doesn’t. I ink in this case we should accept and respect decisions people make about their children even if it doesn’t accord with our decisions.
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Im interested about the sexual pleasure side of the research. Surely the foreskin is there for a reason? I’ve had two long term partners, my ex was cut and my current partner is uncut. Intercourse with an uncut penis seems to me to be more natural? There’s definitley alot more movement there that prevents any pain or friction that I sometimes felt from intercourse with my cut ex rushing into things when I wasn’t exactly *ready* to go. Anyone else able to relate to that? Just seems to me that maybe the foreskin is meant to assist in that area?
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Intercourse wise – sex was the same. It’s not like the argument of a smaller big cock. However, orally absolutely different. Touch wise also different.
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This dinner party has just taken a whole new direction. Woah!
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Hi Jess88,
From personal experience I definitely agree with you on this one! Earlier, I commented and provided a link to a lecture that talks about all of this stuff – have a look. He talks a lot about the role of the foreskin and the difference in touch sensitivity between circumcised and uncircumcised penises. If you don’t want to watch the whole thing, go here (http://physics.georgetown.edu/~rmca/Elephant_in_the_Hospital/Neonatal%20Circumcision,%20An%20Elephant%20In%20the%20Hospital%20Files%20%28same%20as%20zip%20file%29/) and download the powerpoint presentation. He talks about the foreskin and sexuality from Slide 19.
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I’m totally against chopping off body parts to prevent problems that have not occured and may never occur.
I think the foreskin has a lot of functions. I’ve had about 25 male partners in my life (so far)
– most of them circumcised, yet the two who have had the best control (by far!) just happened to be uncircumcised. Hmmm… maybe co-incidence, or maybe not… Has anyone else had this experience?
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Miss Molly are you against cutting off ones breasts if the person carries the breast cancer gene?
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I think it’s very different when a consenting adult has their breasts removed to when a young child does. Everyone should have the right to decide what’s right for their body, especially when the risks aren’t life threatening.
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Okay, Lil, I’ll qualify my statement to include… may never occur… except when there has been shown to be a high enough probability of uccurance that the individual may make such a decision about their own body part or parts, having weighed up all the factors involved and come to an informed and personal decision.
That’s just a little different to an operation being carried out on individuals who have no reason to believe that the operation is, or ever will be, necessary (and who are unable to give their consent anyway) don’t you think?
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I have noticed the same thing about ‘control’ Miss Molly
So a majority of your sexual partners are infact circumcised? thats interesting, just goes to show that even though it appears to be controversial and incites heated debate for and against, a majority of men are actually circumcised?
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Yes, but that’s the age group (late 40s). When my son was born 15 years ago, it would have been difficult to find a doctor to do the circumcision (not that I ever had any intention of doing such a thing).
I think it’s interesting that we’re now debating a practice I thought had died out in the dark ages (i.e. when I was young!)
Interesting that you’ve noticed the same thing though. Maybe that’s something that should properly researched, but I don’t know who you’d get to volunteer for ‘before’ and ‘after’ experiments!
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Jess, my sexual experiences were very much like yours. My circumcised partners (more than one) have never been able to ‘hold on’ and yes, far more friction.
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I must be unobservant. I never noticed the difference except for upon penetration at first.
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Faybian,having not had much experience with penises I was very observant the first time with my current partner as he and my ex looked *so* different and I was, for lack of a better word, fascinated.
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I was born in the late 60s when circumcision was pretty routine and every penis I saw before (and since) my ex was circumcised, including my (now) husband. I did notice that when erect it looked the same as everyone else’s and that was pretty much it.
Oh I tell a lie. I’ve seen my sons uncircumcised penis, just not for years.
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It’s amazing to me that some of you have said sex is better when the man is uncircumcised. I have to say it’s the exact opposite for me. Circumcised it much better.
Foreskins really get in the way of sex – he ends up moving in and out of his foreskin instead of in and out of YOU. It’s so annoying! But what am I going to say? ‘Honey, can you please pull your foreskin back so that I can actually feel you’? No, I don’t say anything – that would be hurtful. I usually just reposition them so that I can feel them.
As for who can hold off and who can’t, foreskin has been irrelevant in my experience. I find all men are sensitive down there and all have a little trouble holding off. I’m not someone who likes to go forever, so as long as they can hold off for at least five or ten minutes, I’m happy.
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Yeah! That’s exactly the way I wanted to describe it! his penis moves in and out of his foreskin, instead of in and out of you, that’s exactly right! I personally prefer that though, I’m not a big fan of too much friction – kinda makes me think there’s some meaning behind the saying “different strokes for different folks”
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Yeah – I don’t think you’re doing it right.
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THYMOS: Journal of Boyhood Studies, Vol. 4, No. 1
This study finds that approximately 117 neonatal circumcision-related deaths occur annually in the United States
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evidence said don’t do it 30 years ago, now they change their minds, i won’t tell my sons.
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I wish the public health authorities would make up their mind! 9 yrs ago when my son was born asking a Dr to circumcise a baby was like asking them to cut off one of his ears. It was virtually impossible. We followed all the best advice and did not have him circumcised, figuring he would then look like his peers too. Now….what the? Will this generation of boys all be doing it as adults? Ahh!!!
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I have two sons and a daughter. I’m also pregnant. We are jewish so circumcision was always something we were going to do.
I freaked out with my first son but he cried once and that was it.
With my second, we did it with a nerve block so he didn’t feel it and he didn’t even cry. Never heard a peep from either of them when I was changing the dressing either.
That said, they were tough days for me. I cried the first time.
But if this next baby is a boy, we’ll be doing it again and I’m at peace with it.
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I think every person on here that gets their kids cut for medical reasons, or religious will look to confirmation bias to make their point.
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No matter which side you are on you can find evidence to support it. In this case we are talking about a young child, that with care will not have a problem.
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The non religious reasons are really preventative surgery at best and just blatant disregard for the welfare of a child at worst, maybe somewhere between, but the one true thing is you are NOT doing it to yourself.
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Females and males both retain smega under their respective genital coverings, but when a female’s labia are removed it is called for what it is, genital mutilation and NO I’m not talking about the removal of the clitoris.
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Women will fight tooth and nail to tell you how it is completely different, but would they cut off their daughter’s labia if it was the cause of bacteria, hiv risk or disease?
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In most cases, hell no!
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But both differing sets of genitalia do and there is evidence to show labial circumcision prevents much of what foreskin circumcision is touted to. Again confirmation bias will let to pick the side that makes you rationlize your decision either way because there exists compelling evidence on both sides, well, actually, only one side advocates chopping off part of a baby boy’s penis in an effort to counter what mostly good education and hygiene practices can.
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There are some really fast and loose analogies comparing it to vaccinations as if the build up of bacteria from lack of hygiene is analogous to a preventative injection to build antibodies as a defensive mechanism.
Not the same at all. It’s about cutting a child and whether or not you can justify it. Unfortunately it’s about a male child, because they call it what it is when it happens to girls…mutilation.
If you wouldn’t do it to a girl, don’t do it to a boy. Maybe the ban happy left might get this practice banned, maybe, like smacking children it could be at least debated on a larger scale.
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Excellent, Voice of Reason. Please propose a way then that we may be able to reduce transmission rates of STIs and HIV in our community. Because clearly, the safe sex message *isn’t* working. If rates of transmission of measles, chickenpox, whooping cough were at the rates of STIs in our community, people would be (and are) outraged at those who didn’t vaccinate. Women’s reproductive systems and lives are MUCH more important to me than a tiny piece of skin being removed. As are those of the young men in our gay community who have a higher rate of unprotected sex.
Female genital mutilation is done for a completely different reason and involves (in most cases) removing the clitoris to eliminate pleasure. Completely different.
Wouldn’t it be great if we could reduce and eventually eliminate these diseases with a combination of a simple foreskin removal AND an increase in safe sex, respect (not cheating) in a long term relationship.
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“Excellent, Voice of Reason. ”
Thank you B
” Women’s reproductive systems and lives are MUCH more important to me than a tiny piece of skin being removed”
That’s pretty easy to see.
But please, tell that to the 1170 children who have dies in USA alone over the last decade due to complications arising from CIRCUMCISION.
That could have been avoided if they didn’t cut a little baby boy’s penis.
This is a human rights issue and a my body my choice issue. Babies can’t make these decisions.
Sounds to me like you’re towing the ” girls are all that matter to me” line, pretty faithfully.
Remember correlation =/= causation.
There may be many factors why circumcised men get HIV less, not the least been that there is a cultural difference in those who do and don’t agree with it. It could be that circumcised men are less promiscuous because they are more likely to be religious and that could completely count for the 60% sway or that desensitized, circumcised men are less sexually active.
Until there is a study done into this, I’m not about to listen to women rationalize the cutting of a baby.
The facts are not complete but one fact is – Cutting a baby for the wrong reasons is not right.
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VOR. I like the cut of your brain’s jib.
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Perhaps people might consider being more respectful of each other. If we start with the assumption that our own passionately held views are unlikely to change the passionately held views of others, we could have a better discussion. Issues like circumcision and vaccination are contentious enough (which probably explains the frequency with which they’re raised on forums like this) without people becoming disrespectful, personal and rude.
I think that if research indicates that both circumcision and vaccination have positive health benefits, we should accord similar respect to both research results. It makes no sense to only believe in research that supports our preconceived ideas.
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I have never really thought about it too greatly but then again I have 2 daughters however my Mum was telling me the other day that a friend of hers who works in a nursing home said they often have to clean uncircumsised men’s penises when they can’t do themselves. Sometimes they “can’t” and or get lazy with old age etc, some of them also get very embarrased about it all when they realise the nurse has to do that for them.
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Elderly people in nursing homes also have to get people to wipe their bums or clean their circumcised penises, or wash their vaginas, or replace their catheters or change their colostomy bags. That irrelevant argument is about the indignity of old age, not about circumcision.
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Circumcision is definitely a breach of basic human rights. There are female circumcision procedures that are less damaging than male circumcision. Why is genital mutilation considered so abhorrent when it’s performed on a female and not when performed on a male? If I was mutilated as a baby I’d be suing the doctor who performed an elective procedure without my permission.
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Anonymous,
But there are medical reasons for male circumcision – female circumcision is purely about trying to control women by removing their connection of pleasure with sex.
HUGE DIFFERENCE.
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Wendy you’re drawing a long bow. Not all male circumcisions are anything other than religious and labial circumcision can be proven to have some health benefits.
Also where is your proof to say that all female circumcision is to “control” females. This is just a blatant lie. Much of it is justified absolutely religiously just like the Jewish and Christian do for boys.
Please link to all your information, but please no Feminist scholarly studies.
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Labial circumcision has health benefits??? Do tell us more.
Also, female circumcision – or female genital mutilation as the World Health Organization calls it – has absolutely nothing to do with religion.
I’ve seen the results with my own two eyes and let me tell you, it’s got nothing on removing a foreskin. Nothing.
You might want to link some of your own references as well. No anti feminist scholarly articles, though.
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Seriously ! This comment is SUCH a crock .. REALLY ! there is no medical reason to disfigured ANY baby .. they have no choice and we as the adults in their little lives have absolutely no right to make any changes to their little bodies .. unless its a life threatning emergency .. are you kidding !
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I highly recommend this video on the issue. It explains my point about some female circumcision procedures actually being less harmful than some male circumcision procedures, yet female procedures are rejected vehemently by people like Wendy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98f3IavuEgQ
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To circumcise or not – it’s one of those topics that everyone just needs to agree to disagree. We all have our own reasons for either doing it or not. I do not judge those who have chosen not to circumsise their sons therefore I expect the same level of respect.
My husband played in a sporting team once where half of the boys were and half were not. Their team name? Helmet’s and Beanies.
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I discipline my newborn son by poking him with a sharp stick when he cries. I intend to stop doing it before he is three, therefore he won’t remember it, and I never jab him hard enough to break the skin so it won’t cause any permanent damage.
I don’t criticise those who DON’T poke their baby with a sharp stick, therefore I expect the same level of respect. We just need to agree to disagree on this topic.
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Trixie – what about people who pierce their daughters’ ears?
Where do you stand on that?
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Not a huge fan either. I think both piercing and circumcision are pretty comparable, except that ear piercing is reversible, and possibly less invasive.
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Trixie, seriously WTF.
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@Janet – it was in response to @Agree to Disagree’s comment above. I was just pointing out the flaws in her “each to his own” argument when it comes to inflicting unnecessary pain on an infant.
For the record, my divine baby son has never been poked with a stick, sharp or otherwise! : )
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Trixie, what business is it of yours if Agree to Disagree has circumcised her son? Your response was very insulting to people that have actually been abused, but I guess it’s all about proving that you are right, others be damned.
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Those HIV and STIs research reports have been found to be flawed:
“The most recent of these excuses invokes the spectre of AIDS, used as a justification for heavily promoting circumcision in Africa. A range of studies claiming to show that male circumcision reduces HIV transmission have been seriously flawed, most recently a trio of trials conducted in Kenya, Uganda and South Africa.
Robert Van How and Michelle Storms produced a well-referenced response earlier this year that documents the issues far better than I can here, but some of the problems should be fairly easy for the curious reader to spot. The studies are host to a catalogue of clear biases – for example the short length of the trial means that men circumcised were unable to have sex (for obvious reasons) for a significant chunk of it. The authors make the flawed assumption that all transmission was due to heterosexual sex, which is a) wrong and b) makes it a poor test of the hypothesis that circumcision reduces sexually transmitted HIV.
Most damning though is the fact that if the trials are correct, and circumcision provides major protection from sexually transmitted HIV infection, then the impact should be obvious in the wider population. It isn’t, and the authors cite several countries where circumcised men are more likely to be HIV infected than intact men. In fact survey data across 19 countries showed no association between circumcision and HIV risk.
Even if there were, the same benefits could be achieved through voluntary circumcision of adults.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/the-lay-scientist/2011/dec/06/1
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As an uncircumcised male I would like to reassure everyone that it’s not very hard to keep iIT clean at all – and anyway, doesn’t anyone think that amputation is an extreme way of ensuring cleanliness? And by the way, why is there this obsession with the cleanliness of this particular body part? I would have thought cleanliness of the – excuse me for saying this – bum would be a bigger issue given it’s role in human plumbing. No one’s rushing around doing research on this or advocating stitching it up to keep it all nice and clean. Why do doctors feel the need to waste good research time and money on such non issues and come up with useless findings like “circumcision provides 60% protection against HIV”? So, what about the other 40% chance? Doesn’t sound like good odds to me – probably still a good idea to wear a condom. And 1-1.4% vs 0.2% risk of UTI’s is comparing a very low risk to a very very low risk – its still not a big deal is it? If some parents want to chop the end off their son’s penis then go ahead but i think it’s an incredibly barbaric and unnecessary thing to do. Please take note that this research was by the Circumcision Foundation of Australia so i would treat their findings with skepticism, not that this changes my views. And what a weird foundation anyway. Whilst some people take up the cause against poverty, abuses of human rights, or for environmental issues, these guys want to talk about chopping the end off the penises of baby boys. Weird. Wonder what they put on their t-shirts and stubby holders. What do they do to raise funds – hold a sausage sizzle?
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Thanks for sharing the uncut male perspective, it really is good to hear as most of us have no first hand experience.
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They’d probably make damn sure there was no skin hanging over the end of the sausages once they’d been separated.
I used to work in a male surgical ward and didn’t see that many men with phimosis. I know personally a lot of young men through my kids and haven’t heard of any with phimosis either. It probably happens as often as infections of the vulva.
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I have two sons and when they were born I did not give circumcision a thought. I wouldn’t hurt my baby boys when i didn’t have to – they are perfect the way they are.
When they are older, they can choose.
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Let your son choose when they are 18. Don’t mutilate them.
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And put them through more pain getting it done as an adult, then relatively little pain when they are a baby and they wont even remember. Yeh that makes sense. Lets cause them more pain!
I’ve held off commenting all day, because I can’t believe how many are so against it. What happened to freedom of choice! I say cut it if you want, dont if you dont! I’ll be giving my future children the chop!
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That’s the whole point though – there isn’t freedom of choice when it’s done to a baby, because it’s their parents who choose, not them.
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I meant freedom of choice for the parent- to do what they want without being judged for it.
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Please can we have a thumbs down button? I can’t believe this shite coming from Cut it! I hope you don’t end up having boys if you intend to mutilate rather than love them.
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What makes you think it’s not painful for a baby?
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Seriously, chopping your child because you think it looks nicer, or for cleanliness reasons should be counted as assault. Parents citing freedom of choice, and then giving their child no choice and doing this to them make no sense.
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Love your name!!
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What 18 year old guy would choose it!
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Cut or uncut, I’ve never met a man who doesn’t think his cock is the best cock on Earth.
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Nah – not all. My ex had a wiener the size of a cocktail frank – and he hated it!
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Babies are born perfect. There is no need to change them.
A foreskin is not a defect.
We don’t routinely take out adenoids, tonsils, and an appendix because they might cause problems in the future, so I have a really hard time understanding why we would want to do surgery on a baby if it isn’t medically necessary.
My son is not like his father and no one cares or has even noticed.
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Couldn’t this same argument be applied to vaccinating? “My child might never be exposed to whooping cough, etc. in future, and therefore I shouldn’t vaccinate”? How are the two any different? Both involve exactly the same process of listening to medical advice and deciding whether or not the benefits outweigh the risks.
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Diseases like whooping cough, measles etc are ABnormal. By vaccinating, you are protecting your child from an abnormal disease that they have a relatively high chance of being exposed to. Foreskins are a normal part of the male body that, in themselves, don’t cause any problems (except in rare cases).
Also, the diseases we vaccinate against have a significant mortality rate. As far as I am aware, UTIs don’t.
Re protection against HIV and STIs – the protection is FAR from foolproof. If you are relying on circumcision to protect you from HIV you are an idiot. Use condoms.
Also, as far as I am aware, this is ONE study in favour of circumcision, as opposed to pretty much the consensus of the entire medical community in favour of vaccination.
I would wait until there was a lot more hard evidence in its favour before I inflicted an unnecessary amputation of part of a newborn’s penis on my baby.
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Agree.
Vaccination is protection from an external threat that could be life threatening.
Circumcision is removing a healthy part of the body to protect against a UTI. Seems to me to be a bit over the top.
All the other protections seem to be sexually transmitted. This includes cervical cancer which has been proven to be sexually transmitted.
I would rather my son protect himself and his partner with a condom than try and rely on not having a foreskin. And I certainly wont be telling my daughter to risk unprotected sex with someone because he is circumcised.
Lets just be honest and say it for what it is…. cosmetic/religious/cultural reasons not medical.
This is why there will never be agreement on this issue.
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As far as I am aware, and as far as the medical profession recommends, there is no better way of preventing diseases such as measles, mumps, rubella, whooping cough, polio, etc than immunisation. That is why I have chosen to immunise my children. Regarding circumcision, however, there is a much better way of preventing STI acquisition and transmission than circumcision – condoms. I would never have unprotected sex with a man based on him being circumcised because the STI risk was lower, I wouldn’t recommend it for my daughters and I would think my sons irresponsible if they took that approach too. For this reason alone, think that the aspect of the policy rationale that deals will lower STI risk (not protection, I note) as a justification for circumcision to be a bit odd, really.
(I’m willing to accept the notion that the risk of UTIs may be higher but, to be honest, I’m not sure that alone justifies circumcision.)
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This may have been mentioned in other comments below (I haven’t read all of them!), but it seems ridiculuos to say that something shouldn’t be done because it causes pain. If we all lived by this mantra, we wouldn’t vaccinate our children, nor, for that matter, would we exercise.
I’m neither pro- nor anti-circumcision – my son’s circumcised, but other parents can choose what they like (along with everything else) – but I do think those who say it’s for “no good reason” didn’t actually read the results mentioned above…
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Totally agree, well said Belle.
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Just in case anyone doesnt see Trixie’s response above I’ve pasted it here:
Diseases like whooping cough, measles etc are ABnormal. By vaccinating, you are protecting your child from an abnormal disease that they have a relatively high chance of being exposed to. Foreskins are a normal part of the male body that, in themselves, don’t cause any problems (except in rare cases).
Also, the diseases we vaccinate against have a significant mortality rate. As far as I am aware, UTIs don’t.
Re protection against HIV and STIs – the protection is FAR from foolproof. If you are relying on circumcision to protect you from HIV you are an idiot. Use condoms.
Also, as far as I am aware, this is ONE study in favour of circumcision, as opposed to pretty much the consensus of the entire medical community in favour of vaccination.
I would wait until there was a lot more hard evidence in its favour before I inflicted an unnecessary amputation of part of a newborn’s penis on my baby.
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My sisters first son had a horrible infection from his circumcision. And that was after having to search to find someone to do it when he was about 6 weeks old. This caused them to completely change their mind about it for their second son and he wasnt circumcised. Seeing that baby in so much pain was enough to make my mind up for my own boys.
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Hygiene, medical and religious reasons aside…. A cock looks and feel a million times better when it has been circumcised. Like an adult with ears sticking out – yeah sure your born that way but god u would look better with them pulled back.
I am I the only one putting this argument forward as this alone was probably the one of the major factors I got my boys willy done. When he is older I want the ladies to be happy. You know woman to woman!
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disagree MAJORLY. i believe the complete opposite.
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Realllllly???? I found them so wrong in all spots. Please please please tell me why you like? I am saying this with a smile on my face (I love sex talk btw)
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It’s because foreskins are so soft and tactile when penis is flaccid, and then they do that awesome roll back thing and *pop* out comes the head. It’s like an amazing fruit. And in my experience, guys with foreskins are super super sensitive so you can handle them with more finesse and light-shade. Every uncirc’d guy i’ve been with has been fanatical about hygiene too, whereas the circ’d guys aren’t so much (i guess they take it for granted). also, i think the glans on the uncirc’d guys has a different texture which i also like, espesh when performing oral. I AM BLUSHING NOW, SALLY! but you did say you liked the sex talk.
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Oooohhhh don’t blush. See I was the opposite I could not stand that extra soft bit when I went for the wank. It was in the way when all I wanted was the smooth hard knob.
Then to oral, i found it worse as if I had a fleshy piece of glad wrap in my mouth. Oh dear I am blushing now!!!
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Sally, your boys will be freaks with their smooth knobs. If you can’t handle a hood, then you need to learn some new tricks.
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Sorry no offense, but that coment makes you sound very shallow. In my opinion, the safety concerns of the procedure itself outweighs how his future girlfriend feels. If she dont like it, she probably aint worth it anyway.
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Looks, feels… and smells a million times better!
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What a load of crap. You had your sons’ circumcised so they would look better?
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I had it taken off firstly for religious reasons like Lana below. But in saying this, I don’t care what others make think, shallow or loaded with crap, it does look and feel better.
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When the penis is erect they all look the same.
I would also love to be there when you have the conversation with your sons:
teenage son: “mum why did you get me circumcised, none of my mates are.
mum: “well son, in all the penis I’ve had in my time and I always found the best sex I had was with a circumcised penis. I also like the look of a circumcised penis better”.
teenage son: “sorry I asked”.
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“Yes and son I forgot to tell you, I also had them give you a nose job while they were at it because I didnt think the nose you were born with would attract many females”
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What bollocks.
Sallly was just being honest. I HIGHLY doubt her sons will ever be dissatisfied with their penises. I have never dated/met a man in my life who wasn’t happy with the circumcised or uncircumcised state of his penis (and I’ve dated/met a LOT of men). The uncut ones think they’re ‘natural’. The cut ones think they’re prettier and less smelly. They’re both right.
Stop giving Sallly so much grief, as though she had her sons’ thumbs removed. It’s nonsense.
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Lol. That’s a good one!
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“well son, in all the penis I’ve had in my time”
This comment made my day.
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Substitute “labia” for “foreskin” in that argument, and you have pretty much summed up the justification that much of the Islamic world uses for female genital mutilation.
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Rubbish.
In female genital mutilation, not only do they wait until the girls are older and use no anesthetic but they remove the clitoris. Male circumcision is NOT the same thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation
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I’m not talking about the actual practice which IS very different and far more barbaric, but arguing that your baby should have part of their genitals removed for cosmetic and cultural reasons is quite horrifying.
Not sure why waiting until they older makes it worse?
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If female circumcision (and by that I mean a trimming back of the labia at birth) was a cultural norm in the Western world, made my lady bits look, feel and smell nicer, made me less less prone to infections/diseases and possibly even enhanced my sex life (all of which is the case with male circumcision), I wouldn’t have a problem with it.
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Who said the labia in unattractive? Which religion advocates for female circumcision? If your going to say Islam as the obvious choice…. Well it’s not. Female circumsion is based on traditional belief of some north African tribes.
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Trixie, this is a very sane statement. Thank you. I don’t really understand why male genital mutilation by their parents is priced at a discount to female genital mutilation by their parents.
I’m really not that opinionated on whether to circumcise or not, but I hate some people’s justification of their decision.
What if I were to make the statement that I’m going to get my daughter breast implants because boys love the look of a nice big party rack and it’ll be better for pearly necklaces?
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An uncut penis looks like a sharpei puppy.
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Lol….too funny
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Imagine a dad saying about his daughter ‘well when she hits puberty if her boobs aint big enough she’s straight in for a boob job! I’ve felt lots of boobs and bigger is better’
Your argument is absolutely no different.
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How ridiculous! That is not true. Both of the major relationships I have had in my life have been with uncircumcised men (seen a lot of other penises in between!). Their penises looks exactly the same as any other, and the sex is actually better, due to less chafing and more sensitivity (for them). They are always clean, because they keep it clean like any other body part. Neither of them had STDs. There is no significant difference whatsoever to advocate cutting a tiny baby’s penis. If women are out there rejecting men soley because they are uncircumcised then they are ignorant and not worth the effort in the first place.
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Sally, you would be appalled if a guy told you to change the way you looked to suit his desires. Imagine getting told to get your vagina flaps cut a bit to make it look neater. Seriously.
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The human body is an amazing thing. Why are males born with a foreskin if it’s not required?
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but what is required for?
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Same reason women have labia protecting their clitoris.
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I have two sons. When my first was born my husband wanted it done – as he is. I was on the fence and still am regarding the whole issue, so after a bad birth and being re-admitted back into hospital with our 1 week old son (infection after c-section) I told my husband if he wanted it done he needed to find a doctor who would do it, make the appointment and take time off work to get the proceudre done.
Needless to say we have two uncircumcised boys…..
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My sister in law is European. When she first saw my BIL’s circumsised penis she thought something was wrong with him – as she had never seen one “done” before! Too funny!
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I don’t understand why it is constantly being debated. For those who have baby boys it is a decision they had to make and it is done. Why make it harder by bringing up the same argument because as a mum of a 4 year old – you can’t change it now! Like most mothers of this generation, the dads are circumcised and their sons are not because the hospitals and majority of obstetricians are against it. In saying that – half of the boys in my group of friends are and half are not so lets just accept what we decided to do and move on. I honestly don’t think it makes a difference…..
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Well, not everyone reading has already had their sons Anon. I would have been very interested if my breeding days were still ahead of me…thankfully all finished.
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My dad had me and my brother circumcised because of a very unique and personal reason…
My father wasn’t circumcised, but when he was a young man he was bitten on the penis by a red-back spider (yes, just like the song…it was on the toilet seat)…apart from getting really really sick, they had to remove his foreskin because of the swelling…
He swore that no son of his would have to go through the same thing as an adult, so my brother and I are circumcised…
My comment doesn’t really contribute to the debate…but that’s how it was in my family…
Personally I think this is another pro-choice issue…I’m happy to leave the decision to each set of parents…I can see valid arguments on both sides of the fence…but if you’re not circumcised, you might want to check under the lid of outback toilet seats…
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Youch.
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That doesn’t make sense. Surely he would have wanted you to have a foreskin so that if you were bitten it would be on something you could afford to lose. If your father hadn’t been uncircumcised when he was bitten they would have likely have had to cut off another part of his penis.
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As a pregnant woman expecting a boy – I would love to see more on what the males think about this hot topic. Admittedly this is a Mothers Forum but has anyone seen this topic hotly debated by men? Can you recommend a site? Examples of comments and how they feel different at school being one of few circumcised boys? Examples of hygiene and health?
I want to keep and open mind for now but Its seems the woman here know what men want?
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Hey Open Minded – not a male myself, but my husband and my stepson and my Dad are all uncut, and none of them has ever had any infections, or any health issues. Can’t speak for my Dad or my stepson in terms of sexual satisfaction, but my husband’s foreskin is beloved by both of us…
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Just in case you missed this link below;
http://alancumming.com/blog.php?id=525
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I had my son in 2003 & if I had chosen to circumcise him it would have been very difficult to find a doctor who would perform it. That in itself was reason enough not to do it! To me it is a procedure that is desperately trying to justify itself. As posters below have said, keep it clean & practice safe sex. Simple.
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Absolutely, considering it is now classed as a cosmetic procedure, its strange how the pro- Circ campaign is still running with the health and hygiene reason.
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Both times we got a good whack of money back from Medicare…. and one of my boys is only 19 months old….
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Wow, really? I wasnt aware that medicare covered it anymore.
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They must have covered something because after seeing Dr Russell we got about 85% of our money back.
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I think that rebate was probably your PR fee from Dr Terry Russel who you have mentioned about half a dozen times already…
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Funny how most are SO pro-vax on this site, but when research (something we SO support and cite for vaccinations) says something reduces the risk of infection and is a good thing for public health, the response is ‘meh, I choose no’! Imagine how people would feel about my attitude to vaccination if it was like that!
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As the mother of five boys, I chose not to have them circumcised as I couldn’t see any good reason to do so. I think it’s weird that people want it done so their son’s penis is the same as his father’s. Would you get your daughter a boob job so hers looked like yours? The thing that raises a red flag for me regarding this research is that it’s ambiguous about which countries it was conducted. In a first world country like Australia, with unfettered access to clean water, health education and doctors, there’s really no need to perform this surgery routinely.
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Firstly, my son not being circumcised does NOT pose a major potential public health risk, and secondly, there is far from blanket agreement about the benefits cited in this article. ONE researcher has reached this conclusion, as opposed to the entire medical fraternity who favours circumcision.
When I see circumcision listed as a public health issue that is supported and funded by the government because choosing not to circumcise poses such a massive health risk to both the individual and society at large, THEN I will consider it.
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Excellent – like vaccination then, we’ll give it a few years and then watch the public health campaign start…
Also, it’s not just *one* study. This is just the latest one. There’s been plenty over the last few years in particular. Like any kind of education, you just have to look for the (proper, published, peer-reviewed) research.
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Not according to the article and the authors of the study:
“Researchers connected to the Circumcision Foundation of Australia have presented *what they claim is the world’s first evidence-based policy* for male circumcision saying the benefits vastly outweigh the complications, which they say occur in less than one per cent of cases.”
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To clarify, it’s a policy paper they wrote based on a whole bunch of studies that had already been done, and meta analyses, from around the world.
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To further clarify, a meta-analysis is the statistical collation of multiple studies and is generally regarded as the most reliable source of scientific evidence.
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Thank you Rick!!
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I have three boys. When my eldest was 4 he was circumcised after two years of infections. We tried every thing to avoid surgery but it was deemed the best option for cure and it has proven to be so. Unfortunately he was just one of the unlucky few percent of uncut boys who can have this problem. My third son was not born at this time and yet we decided to leave him intact. Despite witnessing first hand what my eldest son went through, we still chose not to circumcise our third. We based this on research and doctors advice. Even the paediatric urologist and the paediatric surgeon, both of whom were involved in my eldest sons care, agreed with leaving our third son intact.
I say do your research and make an informed choice. My husband is cut because that was the thing to do in the 70′s but that certainly did not come in to play when making a decision for our sons. To us it was irrelevant. The evidence supported leaving our sons intact so we did. Despite what my son has been through I do not regret our decision.
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Wow. There are some really poor arguments being thrown out on this topic.
“let my son decide what to do with his body” – thats like saying you wont vaccinate until they’re 18 to let them decide what to do with their body. Step up! Your the PARENT! Make the call! Half the point is protecting them as infants/children anyway.
“leaving the body as god intended” – so does that mean you think God intends people to get HIV? Cervical cancer? Do you not vaccinate because if God intended kids to be immune to measles he would have made them that way? Totally nuts.
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Whats Totally Nuts is cutting off the tip of your childs penis for no good reason – In my opinon anyway.
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It’s NOT the tip of his penis – it’s a covering around the top of the penis. Technically the top of his penis is where the urethra ends at the tip of the penis (which is not touched at all). Foreskins in baby boys are tiny and thin and very easily removed with non-surgical options these days. Please stop this incorrect ‘cutting of the top of his penis’ rumour.
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No good reason? There are plenty of good reasons. The medical research has been done.
I read the medical findings and based my opinions to circumcise my boys due to this. Not because of religion or cosmetic reasons.
I as a parent made the decision to circumcise my two sons so that I may help prevent any diseases, infections and or cancer. If that is being cruel to my boys (which they will never remember the procedure anyway), so be it…. call me a cruel Mum, but I know that I have done my best to help prevent the above, just like I have done so with all of my children through vaccinating them.
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Thanks Pip73 I made the same decision to circumcise my son for the same reasons.
I am always shocked when confronted by people that suggest I have mutilated the son I adore in the same way they adore their children. A person may not agree with my decision and I respect that but to suggest I have abused my child because I have made a decision contrary to theirs is rude, ignorant and hurtful. I am not stupid or careless and I did a lot of research and spoke to many different experts before I made my decision. I had some of those experts insist it wasn’t necessary and some say it was. I also found it a difficult decision to make and made it on balance, it wasn’t a forgone conclusion. Needless to say I am finding many of the comments on here confronting and am going to stop reading now.
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With all due respect, bugger off and do not compare my not getting my son’s circumcised as not stepping up in my role as a caring parent. They were born in 2000 and 2002 and circumcision was not something that ever came up at any medical appointments I had when I was pregnant by the doctors or midwives.
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It was never bought up either with me when I was pregnant, however I knew about it and did my research. At the end of the day whoever decides to circumcise their child or not too, is the choice of the parent, however I think it is unfair to say to those who have circumcised their children that they are cruel and we’re putting our son’s through unnecessary pain.
We have all one our research and have acted on what we feel is best for our children.
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Steady on! “bugger off” yourself. My comment was directed at those who fail to make a decision, with the excuse that it’s “for their son to decide” rather than stepping up and making the call they see as appropriate for their child. If people make the best decision they can, with the best information possible, you can’t really ask much more of a parent than that. You seem to be comfortable that you did that, and that’s tops.
Maybe this research/debate will at least put the decision on the agenda for expecting parents. Which seems to be what Prof Morris is aiming at.
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