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87344572 380x268 Stop calling it sexual harrassment. Sometimes its just banter.

Attention or harassment?

Bettina Arndt has a message for the ‘prudes’: don’t deprive the rest of us the spice of sexual banter.

Arndt, who is an author and sex therapist – and no stranger to controversy – has written an opinion piece in which she suggests that when women are involved in uncomfortable social situations that centre around sex, they tend to overreact and label their experiences as harassment.

Arndt says:

There’s a very real issue at the heart of this silly controversy – namely, the notion that sex is peculiarly dangerous and the rules of normal adult interaction must be adjusted when the subject is sex so no one ever feels uncomfortable.

Bettina 290x385 Stop calling it sexual harrassment. Sometimes its just banter.

Bettina Arndt

Look at the constant skirmishes now taking place in workplaces, where the wrong joke, comment or sexual reference risks accusations of sexual harassment. Yet, as even the feminist website ffeusa.org points out, there are women who make and enjoy sexual banter. As this site suggests: ”Overbroad restrictions on sexual material infantilises women and shores up destructive Victorian stereotypes that women are (or should be) so pure that any expression about sexuality offends and demoralises them.”

Sexual banter, the exchange of jokes and flirty comments can be the welcome spice of life for women, as well as men, and it’s foolish to let the prudish in our midst determine what is appropriate behaviour.

Demonising sexuality inevitably distorts a proper perspective on sexual crimes, leading to politically inspired calls for absurdly longer sentences, misinformation about the likelihood of offenders to reoffend and exaggeration of the emotional damage to the victims of minor abuse. Our prurient interest in sex crimes often robs the perpetrator of any chance of redemption – as the sad death of cricket commentator Peter Roebuck bears witness. This is why allegations of child sexual abuse feature so regularly in fierce battles over child custody – the hint of sexual misbehaviour is a weapon like no other, leaving a lifelong taint on character.

Mamamia spoke to social commenter Nina Funnell, who is a public spokeswoman for survivors of sexual assault. Nina has long been an advocate the rights of physical and sexual assault victims, having been a victim herself in 2007.

We asked Funnell what her response was to Arndt’s piece. Funnell says conversations about what is appropriate flirtation and banter in the workplace, do need to be had so that behaviours which are harassing or abusive are never justified. She argues:

There is absolutely no doubt that we do need a more nuanced discussion about the role of pleasure, intimacy and desire in flirting and that- as with all things connected with human sexuality- these issues are complex and multifaceted (and hey! That’s part of the fun!)

nina funnell 290x240 Stop calling it sexual harrassment. Sometimes its just banter.

Female commentator Nina Funnell

But – and this is a BIG BUT- conversations about flirtation and banter in the workplace need to be carefully constructed so that behaviors which are harassing or abusive are not, in any way, offered tacit justification.

And this is where Arndt and I depart ways in thinking. Arndt has a long history of dismissing the concern around sexual harassment and even defending those who perpetrate sexual abuse against the most vulnerable members of society.

In the late 90’s Arndt wrote an article titled “When Saying Sorry Is Enough” in the Sydney Morning Herald. In it, she discusses the actions of a Canberra doctor who was accused of repeatedly sexually molesting his female patients. In total 13 women came forward with stories of abuse and molestation. Many described being traumatized. The group included a girl who was 12 at the time of the abuse.

Arndt who acknowledged that the Doctor had admitted guilt and apologized to his victims conceded that he had acted unethically. But she drew the line at him being charged. Here are her words:

“ I applaud the efforts of the complainants to use the Medical Board to ensure the doctor was no longer in a position to harm patients. But charging him with assault? That’s where I baulk.”

Arndt  then went on to discuss him molesting his patient (she was also a former patient of his). When talking about him masturbating his patients she writes the following:

“Whatever his motivations, it was not an act of violence but rather an action that in another context would be loving and pleasurable. It’s not a war crime, an event of such magnitude that it demands retribution decades later.”

Wait. What?

So because mutual masturbation can feel great when done in a consenting relationship between adults, it’s now no big deal for a doctor to molest girls and women under his care? This is no different to saying that because consensual sexual penetration (i.e. a good old fashion roll in the hay) can be a great hoot, that rape is now somehow not so bad after all.

The fact that a so called sex expert does not realize that there is a world of difference between consensual acts and non consensual acts should be massive cause for concern.

I was hoping that over the years her views would have changed. But yesterday’s article was all too telling. Arndt started off by discussing the need for us to have a more relaxed view to flirting in the work place (something many people can get on board with) before attempting to leverage the public support for that argument into support for something all together different:

“Demonising sexuality inevitably distorts a proper perspective on sexual crimes, leading to politically inspired calls for absurdly longer sentences, misinformation about the likelihood of offenders to reoffend and exaggeration of the emotional damage to the victims of minor abuse. Our prurient interest in sex crimes often robs the perpetrator of any chance of redemption – as the sad death of cricket commentator Peter Roebuck bears witness.” (My emphasis added)

Given that Arndt seems to think of doctors masturbating vulnerable patients as “an action which in another context would be loving and pleasurable” I’d be very keen to know how she defines “minor abuse”. Particularly since she thinks that victims “exaggerate” their pain.

The sad thing is that we do need a more constructive conversation about issues like pleasure, intimacy, desire, flirting and how they differentiate from harassment. Sex positive feminists have been pushing for this for some time. But let’s remember, being sex positive has nothing to do with becoming a sexual assault apologist. So let’s find someone other than Arndt to start those conversations.

Where do you stand? 

 

Comments

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150 Comments so far

  1. Pingback: Weekend Reading #10 | Melbourne Maharani

  2. Amanda

    I am in total agreement with Ms Funnell’s opinion. I was a victim of child sexual abuse, and it effected every part of my life for a very long time. I consider myself fortuntate, I wasn’t subjected to penetration, but an attempt was made. My molester didn’t want to inflict pain, however. I am very thankful for that aspect, and I woud say that at his trial if he was ever found. BUT, i disagree that he should get a lesser sentence because of his compassion. It did not save me from having been changed forever.
    Having said that, I love to flirt with men. I love sexy banter. And I would hope that anyone offended would approach me first, so I can modify my conversaation to avoid offending them further, rather than filing sexual harrassment. I have had instances in which I could have proved sexual harrassment, but felt, I should let the person know they had crossed a line and give them a chance to alter their behaviour accordingly, and they have always obliged.

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  3. Ashleigh

    I am not sure Nina Funnell read the correct article, having looked at both the recent article of Arndt’s and the earlier one from the 1990′s, the seem to cover really different issues. The earlier article discussing her personal feelings on something she had experienced, and looking at the retrospective impressions of others. I don’t believe that an apology is enough for some people, or some cases, but for a victim to accept that is admirable as it shows they had the strength to move on with their own lives.

    The second was about a woman who took offense to a one time sexual invitation, that was offered with no pressure to comply or to even continue contact, by a couple who were not in a position of authority over her, nor had any other means by which to coerce her. Arguably, it is overreactions like that which undermine genuine harassment, assault and rape cases and result in many such cases being ignored.

    I believe every person (man and woman) has the right to say no, but been simply being posed a question, with no prior indication of refusal, and when there are no means by which the individual could feel coerced into saying yes is not harassment. It is a proposal they simply don’t wish to take up, or even discuss again.

    This is the issue Arndt raised, as you would know if you read the entire article by Bettina Arndt, not just this provocatively selected extract. With that in mind you can see that Funnell didn’t really even address the issue that Bettina was raising. She simply focused on an article written well over a decade ago, which has stuck with her. Given that Funnell was asked to respond to the Arndt’s most recent article, this seems to be a mere sidestep of a real issue, simply because it was raised by someone who Funnell has on occasion, disagreed with. That is unbalanced and poor journalism, and I would expect more from an intelligent person such as herself.

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    • Amanda

      Mamamia asked Ms Funnell to comment on the piece. It seems to me that Ms Funnell was responding to the exerpt that is printed above. Maybe that was all that was provided to Ms Funnell. No where in the above does it state that they asked her to comment on Ms Arndt’s most recent piece. If you re-read that paragraph introducing Ms Funnell’s response, I think you will see what I am referring to.

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  4. Char

    Banter and flirtation are useful ways for us to practice the art of consenting (by joining in) or saying no(“that’s not funny” or “I don’t like that”). This is useful for both men and women.

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  5. Helen

    I think I must work somewhere terribly unusual based on some of these comments…there is a significant explicit, focus on creating a respectful, pleasant working environment. I have rarely encountered anything even mildly inappropriate, and I’m confident any complaint would be treated very seriously. And do we all wander around bemoaning how sterile it all is? How lacking in sexual energy? No. Instead a diverse group of both genders, many different backgrounds and value sets get on with the jobs their paid to do in a safe, happy workplace. I didn’t get an education, don’t leave my child every day, and dont get paid a decent salary so people can get their quota of sexual banter. You want to tell dirty jokes, go to a pub. I have work to do.

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  6. Clare

    Bettina seems to love waving the sexual rights flag for men.
    Virtually every article I have read of hers in the past 10 yrs or so very much sides with the ‘boys will be boys’ mantra.
    Reading her comments about the case of the doctor abusing his patients has reinforced my belief that Ms Ardt is deluded & uneducated in matters concerning sexual abuse and harassment.
    I am a survivor of both sexual abuse and of numerous situations of sexual harassment, and these incidents have made a huge impact on my life. For someone to dare say that we over-exaggerate our responses to these events is very disturbing.
    I am not saying that as adults we should all just clam up, and not have any fun in the work place. But everyone has a line as to where they may begin to feel uncomfortable, and this is where speaking up, not always going to directly to formalise a complaint comes into play. Once people are continuing to disrespect your line, you have every right to then complain.
    As the saying goes,’ from little things, big things grow’ .

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  7. Wicca lady

    Sexual banter in The workplace is one thing.
    But to compare it to sexual abuse, especially by a Dr is another.
    A few years ago my then psychiatrist groomed me, as a predator does and then seduces me and/or coerced me into having sex with him. Sadly this went on for awhile as I was seriously mentally ill at that time, and an easy target. When The medical board found he had done this to approx 30 Other woman, over 3 decades. He decided to withdraw his defence to get back his licence to practice in SA.
    Then he moved to England and worked over there, until another case came up from SA came up, and he was finally deregistered at The age of 72 and then he could not practice at All!!!

    The point is he continuously abused young woman as if it was a part of our psychotherapy, its not it’s abuse of the worst kind and I would like Bettina Arndt to know it has damaged me and many other woman with haunting memories for the rest of my life!!!

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  8. Michelle D'Croix

    Re: sexual harassment in the workplace – It’s only sexual harassment if you don’t find the person attractive. otherwise it’s called flirting.

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    • vanessayoung

      *bangs head on desk* Really, it is so hard to see why progress is not being made in equality between the sexes and in workplace relations when there are so many enlightened comments like yours, Michelle. *sarcastic font*

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      • Chris

        Yea I think Michelle missed the point- Flirting is consensual, sexual harassment is when it in NOT consensual. Derrr
        I’ve been sexually harassed in a workplace and it was not fun. Women had been creeped out by this bloke for years but he made a gross pass at me and reported him. DONT trivialise mine and the other women on this sites experiences – you really DONT want to learn the hard way Michelle- I hope it doesn’t happen to you or your daughter or niece, mother, sister or Grandmother.

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    • EXCELLENT

      Hahaha. EXCELLENT Michelle. So true. And look at how Vanessa the undressa has fired up. On ya.

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      • vanessayoung

        Ha bloody Ha, is that you holy smoke or whatever the hell pseudonym (that is a big people’s word for assumed name) you are using now?
        If you actually read the part of the article by Nina Funnell, you would realise that you are trivialising what is a serious issue for a lot of people. You remind of the kids in my granddaughter’s class at school who say naughty words and giggle like nuts. I hope you are enjoying yourself at the expense of people like Nina and of others who have suffered from assaults and harrassment. Like I said elsewhere, let us be clear, harassment and rape have nothing to do with sex and everything to do with power.
        If this is how you get your kicks then I feel both sorry for and concerned for you, your lack of maturity and inability to read social situations and key words in people’s written comments (and no doubt spoken words) makes me think that you are in for a great deal of bewildering heartbreak in the future.

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  9. Dkmum

    I’m lucky to be working in a team of 3 girls, as one of our topics recently has turned to one of the girls reading 50 shades. Because we all agree it’s not a terribly well written book a bit of banter has since followed. Said girl is one of my closest friends and we saw Hysteria at the movies the other night. I have a feeling the chosen topic of conversation might get even more one-tracked now. If a male colleague got thrown in the mix and someone overheard our conversations I worry it could turn into a harassment case.

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    • Anonymous

      no it wouldnt, it is only harassment when a male is doing the talking, women can say what they want, and do.

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  10. that girl fiona

    So basically, everything Nina Funnell has written has been intelligent and thought through. I love reading her stuff!

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  11. Golden Dragon

    The difference between flirtation and harassment has been clearly defined under law and debated extensively over the decades. Perhaps the writers have had their head in a box for the last 30 years.
    Incidents of sexual harassment are typically swept under the carpet and the complainants ‘moved along’ allowing the perpetrators free reign. Perhaps there is the odd aberration, as there is with anything, but these are hardly the basis of a logical and productive argument on a very serious issue.

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    • Principle

      “Incidents of sexual harassment are typically swept under the carpet”. Yeah. Mr McInnes is a perfect example. A female at DJ’s makes false accusations and as far as females are concerned he is guilty until he proves himself innocent. Then, against Mr.McInnes’ wishes DJ’s gets her on the ropes so she settles for $850,000. A bit less than the $37,000,000 she originally sought but it’s still a free house. Then he loses his job and his reputation. Even though he is INNOCENT until proven guilty. I often wonder why females have such a problem with the most basic legal principle.

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  12. amyspeak

    When I worked at a beer company in Canada I was shocked at how open the sexual banter was – for the first two weeks all I could think was “no one would say this in Australia”. But it was clearly just banter and, once I got over the fact that people weren’t hypersensitive to the risk of being seen as harassers, I actually had a lot of fun with it.

    Unfortunately that is not always the case. I’m pretty sure anyone can tell the difference between banter and something more sinister because the latter leaves you with at least an uneasy feeling. And those feelings or instincts are totally valid.

    I think it really boils down to finding a balance and feeling like you can express yourself without being unfairly judged if you make a joke or if someone else makes you feel uncomfortable.

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  13. Anna

    I don’t understand how outsiders can judge that there’s too many harassment claims happening, that it’s an over the top reaction to harmless sexual banter. Were they there? I’m not saying they’re wrong but I’d like to know how they reached that conclusion.

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  14. case

    i think that the line where sexual banter ends and harassment ensues is the moment that i feel uncomfortable… and i choose to end the discussion or encounter and the other person does not, i agree that lots of peopl (note people not women) use sexual harassment claims inappropriately which makes it more difficult for genuine cases of harassment to be dealt with justly

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    • Chris

      examples of women ahve used it innappropriately? i want names god dmamnit? Why do people always make these comments like there’s a list somewhere?

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  15. Jemima

    One thing that isn’t talked about much is females harrassing males, and why there is sometimes a double-standard. I was at a large conference the other day. The keynote speaker was introduced by a distinguished gentleman. (They were obviously familiar with each other professionally). When she thanked him for his glowing introduction, she made a comment that went along the lines of… “thank you, John… if John wasn’t married, I would jump him so fast that he wouldn’t know what had happened.”
    The audience laughed uproariously. But, if a man said this, I think it would have been seen as highly inappropriate.
    Has anyone else noticed this phenomenon? Don’t men get uncomfortable about being sexually harrassed (in front of 300 people, no less!)

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    • anon

      My partner is routinely harassed, but how does a guy maintain his masculinity whilst saying ‘back off, I’m not interested’ in a society where the general belief is that all men appreciate women coming on to them regardless of the situation? Having been sexually harassed myself, I guess I get even more up-in-arms about female perpetrators. Unwanted sexual advance or innuendo is wrong – no matter the gender of either party. Bettina Arndt lumping ‘flirting’ (which is considered consensual) together with sexual harassment (by its definition is not consensual) is preposterous!

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      • Same Same

        I am with you anon. What I find strange is that when I say the same as you my comments are deleted. But for all I said, I have had my left nipple pinched, my bottom pinched, slapped, groped and fondled. I have had a female come up behind me and put her hands on my shoulders. I have had a CLIENT squeeze my left bicep a few times etc. It goes on and on. I have had females say some very sexual things to me that I think were supposed to be funny. Obviously I am devastated. “The fact that a so called sex expert does not realize that there is a world of difference between consensual acts and non consensual acts should be massive cause for concern.” Females don’t seem to be able to make that sort of judgment at all.

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    • Anonymous

      What profession are you in??? What the female speaker said was very unprofessional & inappropriate & embarassing!

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  16. Yes, things can go too far...

    I think there is a huge different between banter and harassment. The examples above are clearly abuse which is far different again.

    A few years ago, while working in a clothes store, there were four of us working on shop floor one day. We were talking about the clothes that had just come in and how some of the styles made those of us with bigger “boobs”, pregnant. One of the women working said to one of the other women that the dress she was wearing looked awesome and made her boobs look great! The women went to HR and put in a complaint. It was over kill. Had she been bothered, she could have said something to the girl, the manager but not made an official complaint for sexual overtones. The one who made the comment got a warning and it made the work place very uncomfortable. Everyone was so careful with this one girl, alot of people ended up leaving because working in that environment was a misery. Had she just said something, it would have been over instead of making a huge issue over nothing.

    If it’s actual harassment, obviously go ahead and complain. If it’s abuse, go ahead even faster and complain. But there is a line between banter or a comment to abuse.

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    • Kris2040

      What is wrong with saying that a top makes your boobs look good if you work in a clothes shop, which, I assume, people shop in to make their boobs (and other body parts) look good??

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      • Anonymous

        Exactly! It wasn’t sexual in any way. We would always try on thr clothes in the store and ask what the others thought about it. It it fit, how our boobs looked, our rumps lol. It was very uncomfortable after that. The one woman got a write up for something we had discussed on countless occasions.

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  17. catgirl

    I was sexually harassed at my first day of work in an all male environment. I told the male concerned that if he ever spoke like that to me again I’d have him up on sexual harassment charges so quick that his head would spin.

    I never had another problem in that workplace. Women have to toughen up and put men back in their place if they are making them feel uncomfortable.

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    • elle

      It’s great you are able to stand up for yourself like that but not all women have the confidence or feel safe doing so. I don’t think its useful to tell women to ‘toughen up’.

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      • Kris2040

        But neither is it useful saying that everyone needs to tiptoe around because they might maybe offend someone who is too meek to speak up.

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        • Quokka

          I think you need to consider the context. Many people – men and women – are contractors and are worried if they assert their right not to be harrassed they won’t get their contract renewed. There is often a power ratio to be considered.

          Also people who target others in life often seek out those they know will not fight back so it can make someone feel even less powerful telling them to “toughen up” – you are often saying it is their fault they feel upset or victimised.

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  18. elle

    I am SO sick of Bettina Arndt and her irresponsible opinions. Sexual assault and harassment are still MASSIVE issues for women and all too common. The last thing we need is some woman telling everyone that we are over-reacting and shouldn’t give sexual abusers/harassers such a hard time. The extremely vast majority of women who are sexually assaulted do NOT report it and there are no consequences for the perpetrator. What we need is more women standing up saying it is NOT okay and to speak up when we experience sexual harassment or sexual assault.
    Bettina Ardnt really makes me very very angry because it is incredibly hard for women to stand up against these men and she is just making it even harder. I can GUARANTEE the story would be different if she had ever been a rape victim or sexually harassed in the workplace to the point of avoiding work.

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  19. Tripitaka

    Nina Funnell is wonderful. Every time I read something she writes I feel like I learn something new. I would love to see more of her on MM.

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  20. Guest

    For me, Nina made the better point. Though I remember reading Helen Garner’s brilliant book ‘The first stone’ many years ago, which is sympathetic to the ‘accused’, who subsequently loses everything over an allegation, and which blurred the lines on everything I believed at the time.

    I think these things should be decided case by case.

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  21. ...

    In addition to all other negative responses to Arndt, I’d like to add:
    “Sexual banter, the exchange of jokes and flirty comments can be the welcome spice of life for women, as well as men, and it’s foolish to let the prudish in our midst determine what is appropriate behaviour.”

    If my partner came home from work having partaken in sexual banter (etc) he would no longer be my partner.
    And I wouldn’t classify myself as prudish either for that matter.

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    • Anonymous

      Yes but he’s in a relationship. What about for someone who is single? Most relationships these days start in the work place because we’re there more then we’re anywhere else! Also it’s a great way to meet like minded people.

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  22. Kylie2

    To me “sexual innuendo at work” is a little like the “drinking while pregnant”. It’s very hard to define a universally safe limit so the best advise is to just avoid as much as possible. People will still choose to indulge a little and it probably won’t do any harm but at least they’ll be warned that they should be careful.

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  23. Loop

    I’m quite happy to joke about sexual subjects with guys at work or anywhere else, as long as there’s no hint of flirting or trying their luck.

    Talking about penises and vaginas … fine. Talking about MINE or YOURS … not fine!

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  24. Same Old Same Old

    See what I mean? All my comments deleted. Since you females couldn’t care less about the sexual atrocities committed against me then surely you want me to treat you with the same contempt. Or don’t you want to be treated equally any more?

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    • Guest

      Hey Mamamia – stop deleting Same old’s comments, I’m intrigued!

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    • rebecca

      I like to be treated in the SAME manner as I treat others. that is, with respect. Lumping groups of people together, be they male or female, is absurd. As is your above comment.

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  25. Andrea

    Steven Yolland – well said. Mutual respect. So much of the crud happening in this country/world today could be stamped out if we could all just respect each other.

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  26. Betsy

    I am often left feeling uncomfortable after reading or hearing Bettina speak, I wonder if she is really a WASP man?

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  27. Lozzie

    Is Bettina Arndt turning into Germaine Greer?

    As she’s gotten older she’s seems to have become inflammatory & devisive

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    • Faybian

      and like Germaine seems to have lost the plot…

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      • Bonkers

        Yeah. Ms Greer has gone completely bonkers. Every time a person interviews her on what she has said about men in her books she denies it or obfuscates it. Why is she no longer willing to maintain the rage (against men)?

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  28. Al

    Interesting article. Very interesting.

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  29. clarinette

    I’m sure lots of people will have commented this exact same thing but I haven’t read yet. There’s a big difference between “sexual banter”, which is flattering , sexy, makes you feel good about your body and has you blush a bit at the coffee machine, and bullying, which is more like “sexual banter in a negative way”, obviously they are easily distinguished, compliments are in the first category, and things like “so, how loose is your vagina now that you’ve had a baby?” could fall in the second. I would say follow your gut instinct, if you hate it, you hate it, I don’t see how anyone can tell you “it’s just banter, toughen up”, when you start getting nauseous at the idea of going to work, right? This isn’t high school, last i’ve heard bullying doesn’t stop at its gates, but as an adult you should be able torecognize it and be better armed and less submissive. The exact words don’t matter, what is banter for one person could be seen as bullying by a more sensitive person, and being a sensitive person isn’t something to be ashamed of, every type of person has the right to express their feelings without being called a sissy. I’m pretty tough and I wouldn’t even mind the “how loose is your vagina ” joke myself lol, but I completely understand that different people have different boundaries, no reason to be shamed for having boundaries right?

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    • Anonymous

      The vagina ‘joke’ is disgusting in any situation!

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  30. J

    I used to work at a department store as the door greeter. I hated this job. One particular early morning, I was at work. I was tired. It was right on 8am and I’d had a late night working my other job. I was yawning (bit unprofessional, I admit) and was hugging myself from how cold I felt. I was 24 at the time (though I do look a lot younger than I am, often I get asked for ID at the bloody cinema and Im 29 now) I was approached by an older male, who would have been in his 50s to be generous. He came over to me, touched my shoulder smirked and said, “Been up all night in bed with the boyfriend, hey?” and nudged me, “Hey?” he winked and smiled that smirky, “Im totally imagining you banging your boyfriend!” face.

    I was pretty taken a-back. I have to admit, I’ve been pretty sheltered. I’ve never had someone speak to me like that. It made me feel awful. I do, however, have a lot of guts to speak up about something like that. I asked him (after recoiling in shock). “I’m sorry, why would you EVER think it was appropriate to say something like that to me? Do we know each other???”

    He was clearly surprised by my response and stammered one of his own. And I said, “Please don’t ever say anything like that to me again.” And he quickly walked off but was accosted close by to a friend of his that happened to work in the same department I was standing in. She asked what the problem was, but he dismissed it and changed the subject.

    I would never go so far as to say I was “traumatised” by the ordeal or that I went home and cried, but I would call that harassment. I know the man probably thought he was being funny and was trying to have a joke, or whatever it was going through his ridiculous mind at the time, but it made me feel extremely uncomfortable and no one has the right to tell another person that something that makes them feel bad, is a non-offence and that me or another person is simply being too prudish. Ridiculous.

    This woman is a complete tool.

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    • Loop

      Wow, awesome response! I wish I had your reactions to offensive comments. I’m a mediator type person and always end up half-arsed laughing while I feel uncomfortable …

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  31. Anon

    Such an interesting discussion. I totally agree that two consenting, confident adults should be able to indulge in a little sexually charged banter at the office if they want to.

    On the other hand, in my late teens (not that long ago) I worked in a corporate environment and the sleaze that I copped from men in positions above mine (which was pretty much everyone in the company, since I was the receptionist) was terrifying. Subtle things, like a hand on the shoulder from behind as I worked or drunken text messages after a company dinner. I felt that I couldn’t do or say anything about it or I’d lose my job or good reference.

    It’s a shame that these rules and ultra-politically-correct standards have to be created because it does kind of ruin the fun for some who may mutually enjoy it. However, rules are there to protect the weak and I would hate to think there wasn’t any protection for vulnerable employees like I was. I mean, I was too scared to actually use the rules and report anybody, but at least I could have if it got unbearable.

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    • elle

      If it ever happens again don’t be scared! If you feel uncomfortable then say something! it is not okay and you shouldn’t have to put up with it and wait till it gets ‘unbearable!’

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  32. Corblimey

    Why would that be so I don’t make the same mistake?

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  33. Corblimey

    Actually, they are universal. I would suggest you seek the AUSTLII site and look up the Federal Sex Discrimination Act then go to your State legislation and check out the definitions contained therein of the Anti Discrimination Act.

    However, since it’s just a misunderstanding by these females, should they be punished? Should men be punished for doing the same?

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  34. If you are uncomfortable with sexual discussion or jokes in the workplace, you don’t need to be ashamed or feel like a prude. The “line” between banter and harrassment changes depending on many factors.

    When confronted with something you feel is inappropriate, briefly explain that whilst it was meant as a joke, you don’t feel it is appropriate for the workplace. Address the incident immediately and calmly. Smile before you finish the conversation and always remain professional.

    Bad judgement is usually the cause of these uncomfortable scenarios, but a calm and professional response will ensure that the situation is quickly forgotten and no hard feelings remain.

    If ever you are in a situation that your warning has been ignored, following your workplace policy on sexual harrassment is appropriate. Never engage in the inappropriate conversation, even if you feel pressured to.

    It’s sad to say, but a sexual harrassment case doesn’t just affect the accused, but also the accuser. You cannot be discriminated against for lodging a complaint, however if the complaint is unjustified, you may find that the changed dynamic in the workplace makes working there all but impossible after the incident.

    If you are the victim of bona fide sexual harrassment or assault, always report the crime and make sure you seek help. Your health, mental, emotional and physical, is the primary conern.

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    • Nom de Plume

      Nah. Don’t do any of that. Just make false statements and sue for $37,000,000 like in the DJ’s case. Sexual harassment can be a gold mine if you use it correctly.

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  35. soyabean

    Yeah….no, I can’t deal with Bettina Arndt. I can’t even get my thoughts out into coherent sentences her.

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  36. Stephen Yolland

    And I apologise for both my spelling, and uploading the wrong photo. Nice piece of glass, though, eh?

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    • sassy

      This. OMG. This. It made me laugh so much. I’ve forgotten what we’re even talking about! Bahahahaha!!

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    • clarinette

      It’s extremely pretty :D

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  37. Stephen Yolland

    That’s a very thoughtful and interesting article. I sympathise with what Arndt is saying. I also agree with the points that Funnell is making.

    I would make one simple comment. Top my observation, ,most people now understand where the line lies between harmless sexual flirting and unwanted attention. So women should not be infantilised, (nor should men, incidentally), and in order to acheive that everyone needs to be comfortable with connotations of sexuality AND with the need to speak up if they feel uncomfortable. Above all, the simple truth of “no means no” needs to be driven home, whether it’s a risque joke, a flirtatious comment, or sexual intercourse. Mutual respect is what it’s about – if we could acheive that, we would be a long way forward.

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  38. fender4eva

    I worked with a girl who whenever a guy put the word on her, would say ” I wouldn’t sleep with you, if you were the last person on earth ” It never failed to deflate their egos……

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  39. vanessayoung

    And he has been removed again (fast work, MM team). But if he is still reading, I have two questions for Holy Smoke. One, if you avoid females what are you doing reading a site like Mamamia, where women are supported and celebrated? I am sure there are sites which would welcome your views. If you really want to discuss having been the victim of sexual harassment, why not write an article and submit it and contribute to our knowledge and awareness. Please be aware that one person’s discussion of their story, be they male or female, does not diminish your experience.

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  40. kurayami

    I’d like to thank Nina for her well thought out response to Bettina Arndt’s commentary on “prudes”. Clearly Bettina Arndt hasn’t actually read the statute on war crimes and doesn’t realise that rape is a war crime under the Rome Statute. Even if it weren’t, sexual assault and rape are violations of personal boundaries and done without consent and thus are, by definition violent. What really bothers me about the type of things that Arndt says is that they often (intentionally or unintentionally on her part, I’m not sure which) make it much more difficult for the victims of rape and sexual assault to speak to anyone about what has happened to them. Never mind the arduous step of legal action!

    There are many things that distress me about Arndt’s stance on sexual violence. When I was 20, I was in a relationship with a man that due to my own sexual inexperience and inability to assert myself, I didn’t realise was abusive from the start. Much of it I had blocked out over the years, but through working with an excellent psychologist who specialises in PTSD, I realised that my so called “boyfriend” raped me the very first time that we had sex, under the guise of “breaking me in” and this was the theme for the rest of the relationship. It went on for some months and I only left because he finally became physically violent with me in a way that I could recognise as actual violence. The coercion, the manipulation and the knowledge in my gut that I needed to comply simply for my own safety seemed to be a grey area and he confirmed that for me, of course. It didn’t help that when I went and saw a counsellor at my local rape crisis center, the woman I spoke to after I’d partially disclosed told me that my experience wasn’t all that bad, didn’t seem all that violent and a lot of other women get it worse.

    About six weeks ago, I was sexually assaulted twice over the course of a night by an acquaintance of my brother’s. I was drug affected and let him sleep in my bed, but made it extremely clear that he not try anything. Of course, he did, twice. I communicated very clearly that I didn’t want him to touch me before he touched me the first time, and reiterated after the first time he touched me once I’d woken up out of sleep. I must have dropped off again later because I’d woken up to find him with his hand down my pants again. I spent a better part of the last six weeks kicking myself, blaming myself and telling myself that it was my own fault for making such crap decisions. While that may be, what he did was not okay. Due to these negative experiences, I’m so very afraid of being judged by others about situations like these that have occurred in my life that articles like Arndt’s make me feel very distressed. I feel like it’s invalidating me, and that like with my ex that because I’d said no, but eventually relented and had sex with him even though I didn’t want to, that the many times this happened that I have no right to feel violated.

    But maybe I’m just one these clearly histrionic women making life difficult for offenders by being part of the public voice that demands tougher sentences for so called minor offences.

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    • jamilarizvi

      I agree. Nina always makes her points so clearly and succinctly. Love having her voice on Mamamia!

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    • elle

      So glad you wrote this comment kurayami ! First up it is ABSOLUTELY NOT your fault that these men violated you. In both circumstances you clearly expressed you were not interested in their advances but they ignored your wishes and completely violated you. Please try not to blame yourself for what happened 6 weeks ago. You are allowed to let a man sleep in your bed! It does NOT mean you consent to anything else happening ! It was HIS choice to violate and sexually assault you and you must try not to feel guilty.

      Unfortunately some of the rape crisis counsellors say some really unhelpful things and I have experienced a very similar thing myself. I am grateful you had a good psychologist that helped you :)

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  41. Anna

    I just needed to read two words.

    Bettina Arndt.

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  42. Caz Gibson

    “Another anon guy” I agree with you and have never felt that “male sexuality is bad”.
    It must be sad for men who are living in a relationship where affection/sex is absent………the men I was referring to are the “old-school” variety (I should have been clearer ) who are belligerent and unpleasant and unsympathetic towards their partners during their periods or illnesses or extreme fatigue. Often these men belong to religions who push the idea of male dominance being right and proper and the woman should always submit to their whims because of “duty”……..it’s also interesting that these men are often the ones who are sexist and demanding in the workplace – I’ve always noticed that most men’s interaction with women tends to be a reflection of their experience with their wives. Same goes for women of course.
    I think that the only thing men & women really need from each other is kindness.

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    • Ian

      In a nut shell, you’ve generalised older men and attacked religion.

      Your statements are akin to a racist’s argument that everyone of a particular demographic are all the same.

      Please more reasonable arguments, please.

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  43. kel

    Thank God for Nina Funnell. Arndt’s comments are excusing (maybe unwittingly) behaviour that can damage people’s lives.

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  44. G.J.

    Absurdly longer sentences? I think it was only a few months ago that a man who raped his little stepdaughter got 18 months.

    We need absurdly longer sentences, especially for a crime whose perpetrators are so very likely to re-offend.

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  45. mumof4

    “demonising sexuality inevitably distorts proper perspective on sexual crimes”. really? People who commit serious sexual assaults don’t need bleeding hearts in their corners, they need to be locked up indefinitely . Especially those that commit atrocious sexual assaults on children.

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  46. Ana

    Well, I suppose it must be official – I must be a “prude”. I always knew there was something wrong with me. And to make it worse, I don’t want to be called ‘sweetie’, ‘love’ or ‘darl’ by the women I work with, I don’t want to be hugged by my coworkers or boss and I just want to have a superficial relationship with my clients and staff. I really am a frosty bitch…

    Well, if Betina wants she can go and work in my husbands workplace. They would probably be sufficiently patronising and ’1950′s MCP’ in their behaviour at work. She’d probably be overwhelmed and overjoyed to know that that sort of office talk goes on everyday in downtown Hobart…

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  47. mumof4

    could not agree more. The last paragraph where she says demonising sexuality distorts perspective on sexual crimes etc etc, did it for me. Serious sexual offenders don’t need bleeding hearts in their corners, they need to be locked up indefinitely , in my opinion .

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  48. Anon again

    Maybe we should stop being prudes and just leave it there. Isn’t that what Bettina would want us to do??

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  49. AJM

    Funnell is spot on! I was agreeing with Arndt’s article until about half way through when I had a “wait, what?” moment. Just another tired article that ends up having the message of “OMG political correctness is stifling my right to free sexist/racist/homophobic speech”. It’s a shame because as Funnell says, there’s definitely room to discuss sexual advances as opposed to sexual harassment. But Arndt’s sudden swerve into massive conclusions based on a sensible premise was a bit nuts, frankly.

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  50. H

    I would love for society to embrace more conversations about intimacy, sexuality and sexual pleasure. However, I can’t see how that means sex themed conversations in the workplace are appropriate. I would say that it is foolish to let the overtly-sexual dictate the level of sexual banter in the workplace. Why should someone else try to enforce what my comfort level should be?

    Bettina dones’t seem to understand that the line needs to be drawn and it needs to be drawn well. Why aren’t we encouraging people who enjoy sexual banter to assess the comfort level of those they are speaking to? To respect ‘prudes’ if you like. And let’s face it, while I certainly do not paint all men with the same brush, and know women can be just as guilty of sexual harassment as men, the majority of sexual harassers are men. So why are we looking to give more power back to them?

    Following Bettina’s advice is certainly not how we are going to be able to move forward and have equal and respectful conversations about any aspect of sexual relations and flirting, not matter how light hearted they are.

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    • jennafelicity

      ” would love for society to embrace more conversations about intimacy, sexuality and sexual pleasure. However, I can’t see how that means sex themed conversations in the workplace are appropriate.”

      Good stuff. I agree entirely.

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