Penny Wong with partner Sophie Allouache
Dear Fred,
Unless you count that time I wrote to Michael J Fox in Grade 2, this is the first time I’ve written a letter to a public figure (Michael never wrote back and I don’t expect that you will, either.) Should I have opened with this letter with “How are you?” I guess if I’d started with that, you’d have to answer with “Prejudiced, backward and homophobic.” Because that’s what you are.
Federal Finance Minister Penny Wong announced yesterday that she and her partner, Sophie Allouache (yes, a lady) are expecting a baby through IVF and you quickly took the opportunity to speak out against this. You said it was “a very poor example for the rest of the Australian population.” You said that
Minister Wong’s decision to make the announcement about her partner’s pregnancy “just promotes their lesbian lifestyle…to make it natural where it’s unnatural.” You also said – and this one’s my favourite – “I’m totally against a baby being brought up by two mothers – the baby has human rights.”
Ordinarily, Fred, I wouldn’t give a flying continental what you think. Over the years that you’ve flapped off at the mouth I’ve tended to ignore your ramblings because while I’ve never agreed with them, they haven’t really affected me and I’ve always just dismissed you as a bit of a nutbar. But I couldn’t ignore what you said today, Fred, because last weekend I went to a birthday party.
A beautiful little girl named Jemma turned 1 yesterday, Fred, the same day you made your ugly comments. I went to school with her mummy, who invited me and my family to come over and celebrate. Jemma’s other mummy was also there, as was Jemma’s older brother and a whole bunch of their friends and family.
Christian Democratic Party MP Fred Nile
We ate party pies and sausage rolls. The kids tore through the house and around the back yard while the adults supervised and caught up over a few drinks. When the cake emerged we all sang Happy Birthday and gave three hearty hip, hip hoorays – just your standard one-year-old’s birthday party, Fred. And the birthday girl didn’t stop smiling the whole day.
I’m glad Jemma’s not old enough to read yet, Fred, because I know how devastated she’d be by what you said. To make it crystal clear for you how Jemma got here: Jemma and her brother share the same sperm donor dad. His sperm joined one mummy’s egg via IVF to make Jemma’s brother, who was carried and delivered by that same mummy. Three years later, the same donor’s sperm was used to fertilise the other mummy’s egg via IVF and made Jemma, who was carried and delivered by the same mummy who birthed Jemma’s brother. Got it? Read over it a couple of times if you need to, Fred. Unlike you, I think it’s important to take the time to understand.
If you wanted to be very strictly clinical, I guess you could argue that IVF is “unnatural” but that doesn’t make Jemma any more unnatural than an IVF baby born to heterosexual parents and I don’t think you’re suggesting all IVF parents are setting a “poor example.” No, Fred: I think you’re clearly saying lesbians are unnatural. And that’s a bloody shame.
Jemma’s mummies love each other very much: they’re one of the most adoring, devoted couples I know. They live in a “normal” house in a “normal” suburb, drive “normal” cars, wear “normal” clothes and work “normal” jobs. Are you picking up what I’m putting down, Fred? There’s nothing abnormal about Jemma’s mummies. (Except maybe the fact that they were forced to hide their relationship for a long time until they felt supported enough to come out, and the fact that one of them doesn’t go to mass anymore because of how the Catholic church views her and her family, and maybe also the fact that one of them wryly jokes that the reason seven houses in their street have gone up for sale in the time since she and her family moved in probably has something to do with them. But apart from that it’s all been sunshine and roses, Fred.)
You said you’re opposed to a baby being brought up by two mothers because the baby has human rights and you know what, Fred? You’re right: babies do have human rights. They have the right to be nourished, nurtured, and protected. They have the right to live as part of a family in a home that’s clean and safe. They have the right to be swaddled, cuddled, rocked to sleep and showered with kisses when their eyes open. They have the right to access their biological heritage when they come of age. Above all, Fred, they have the right to be loved. And there’s nothing to prove that a baby being brought up by two mothers would be denied any of those rights.
Like Jemma’s mummies, Senator Wong and her partner may not be in what you’d consider to be a “traditional” relationship, Fred, but that fact alone doesn’t mean they won’t make fine parents. And as I’ve just explained, it doesn’t mean that their baby will be denied any of its human rights. Like Jemma, Senator Wong’s baby has as much of a right to be brought into the world by two loving parents as you, a 76-year-old man, have to wear cable-knit cardigans. And I don’t see anyone telling you you’re setting a bad example for that.
I’m not sure how to end this letter, Fred. I think I signed off with kisses when I wrote to Michael J Fox but I don’t know if that’s appropriate here. On second thoughts, I did call you nutbar, didn’t I? Not to mention prejudiced, backward and homophobic. Ok, now it’s awkward. How about this: in the spirit of acknowledging negative labels, Fred (and I know you’re familiar with them) I apologise. What say we sign-off-kiss and make up?
Terri xx
Terri Psiakis has worked as a stand-up comic, comedy writer and broadcaster since 2000. She is an accomplished writer for both TV and in print, Terri worked on ‘Rove’ for eight years, currently writes a column for the Melbourne City Weekly and her first book, ‘Tying The Knot Without Doing Your Block’ was published by Random House in 2009.
This was originally published on Terri’s blog here and we republish with permission.
What would you want to say to Fred Nile?
Comments
302 Comments so far
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I encourage you and all other ignorant bible literalists to actually read the bible and let it’s words seep into your brain before you open your mouth. It’s really sad that people dare use God’s name to continually justify hatred and bigotry. You clearly don’t actually know what it says in regards to homosexuality. How do you feel about child slavery? Well, according to the bible, it is okay. The bible also presents multiple scenarios in which murder was acceptable. Have you ever used a condom, birth control or pulled out? That is grounds for murder, according to the bible. Do you know that homosexuality is mentioned in less than .1% of scripture? Arguably, most of those aren’t even about homosexuality, but have been twisted into something more sinister to push an agenda. In the eyes of God, divorce and infidelity – which are often the product of lying, which is also a sin – is considered to be worse. Why isn’t that the charge of anyone’s political cause? Why do we not stand in the streets and spit on those that destroy the sanctity of their marriages? They are given the opportunity to wed and they defile it, why is that more okay for people such as yourself than homosexuality? Do you know what else is considered “an abomination”? Eating certain very common foods, most of which I’m sure everyone has eaten and eats on a regular basis. Words have changed meaning since the time the bible was written, so what was considered an “abomination” then and what the word means now are two entirely different things. The truth is that the bible is being used as a tool, by tools, and instead of educating themselves people just latch onto things without furthering their own knowledge. Religion is causing this world to be led down a path of self-destruction and people really should get their priorities straight.
Live and let live. I am straight and was raised by a man and a woman. As long as the parents are loving, kind and good.. who cares what gender they are. Children need love. We should be more concerned about children without parents or kids from broken homes that suffer in silence that are beaten, starved or die every day than we should be about a child raised by two women. Priorities, people, get some.
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It’s so easy to just let that term ‘homophobic’ roll off the tongue and use it against someone else’s viewpoint to cut them down, isn’t it? As a man who believes in God, Fred’s convictions tell him he must alert people to what he understands as God’s truth, which is, that homosexuality is, like murder, thieving, lying, cheating, etc, a great big fat sin and that God hates all sin. Believe it or not.
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I think we are missing the point here. The most important article in this equation is the child and it’s rights.
Whether you agree with same sex relationships or not should really be a matter for you and you personally, and not a belief inflicted on others. I personally am a heterosexual male who doesn’t really believe in the idea of marriage, but I would never force that belief on others. Attracted to the same gender? Knock yourself out! Want to get married? Have at it. None of my business, as your beliefs are none of mine.
What is important here, and as a society should be of premium importance to us all, is that children are brought up in a loving and supportive environment and not stigmatised by societal standards. So believe in same sex relationships or not our primary concern to should be to support the children in our society, regardless of there home environment or parents personal choices and persuasions.
Along those lines, you won’t see me shacking up with a dude anytime soon, but you also won’t see me being anything but accepting and supportive of those that swing that way. And if someone’s choice is to bring a child into this world and be loving and supportive to it, they have my full support. And anyone who speaks against them, and by inference the child, will have nothing but scorn.
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Sorry…I’m with Fred on this one.
As a daughter, I loved having a Mum and Dad (and what their distinctly different roles/characteristics brought to my life).
As a Mum, I love that my kids have both a mother and father.
Mum and Mum or Dad and Dad? No thanks!
Imposing you own sexuality choices on children just isn’t fair or right.
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but what about the children that have no parents? or one parent? or parents that don’t care for them? should they be denied the right to having any kind of parents, whether they’re two men or women, or one man and woman.
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Gosh, glad you’re not my Mum!!!
(and no, I’m not a lesbian).
Not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but we don’t have to choose the same path as our parents.
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why do people insist that homosexual relationships are unnatural? what makes them unnatural? and who’s to say what is and isn’t unnatural? you say that no matter how you explain and justify it it’s ‘morally wrong’ and unnatural’ but why? i don’t understand how you have come to that conclusion? what makes heterosexual couples so natural? you don’t choose who you fall in love with. you dont grow up thinking ‘i want to be gay one day, i will force myself to fall in love with someone of the same sex’ just as you dont (i should rephrase that to ‘shouldnt have to’) grow up forcing yourself to be straight, and fit into society’s perfect image.
if your religion says that you should deny equality, should deny two people who love each other the chance to openly express that then fine. go by that, it’s your choice and you should be respected for that. but why the hell should you have the right to tell people who they should and shouldnt love? who gives you that right?
and congratulations on the pregnancy for Penny and Sophie. yes, a child has rights, they should be loved, cared for and should have parents willing to do anything and everything for them. whether that’s from two parents of the same sex, two of the opposite sex or one. they have the right.
i’m 16. and you can say that i am therefore inexperienced in life. have no clue what i’m talking about. that’s fine. in my opinion if two people are in love there should be no law against that.
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For sixteen you have a lot of common sense! All so well said, good on you. x
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Well there are a few scientific fact’s that don’t support it being natural in humans. One it’s not Genetic or hereditary, you are not born gay. Science Doesn’t support it. (http://www.narth.com/docs/innate.html – NOTE: there are several other sources I could list which support what this say’s). Evolution does not support homosexuality either, due to the fact that there is no procreation to homosexual behavior, that the human race would just stop.
Therefore if you think about it, you are not gay, so your learn the behavior and here in modern time’s there are a few contributing factors. Such as exposure in the media, Childhood trauma, lack of intermancy with one or both parents and the simple lack of self-control which is arise in young people in modern times.
And to the point of Equality, the fact of the matter is that all people have the same right’s and come under the same law’s. There isn’t any discrimination based on Age, Race or Gender which are the factor’s in which one is born with. If a homosexual want’s to get a loan and buy a car they can. If they want to ride on the same bus with a heterosexual they can. If they want to marry someone of the opposite sex, they can. They have the same rights as everyone else.
What they are doing is in fact not fighting for equal right’s. They are fighting to have more right’s than other people and to gain some social power so they can bully other’s who do not support them.
Myself am not one for bullying people, but I am harsh when it comes to dealing with homosexuals for a few reasons:
- The Lie’s. Gay activist and the media have spread to a point where it is the accepted truth and not the actual truth that people are born Gay. When the science does not support this. They take research and ignore the “Possibly, Maybe and could be” and replace them so they sound like fact.
- The Exposure. Gay’s are exposing children to teach them at a young age that homosexuality is natural and normal when it isn’t either. They have put in programs such as the “day of silence” (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=313021).
- The Hate. Gay’s are also resposible for spreading hate towards anyone who doesn’t support homosexual’s. Such as calling anyone against them “Homophobe” and “Bigot”. As a attempt to win an argument or to isolate someone.
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There is so much that I would say back to you but I don’t even know how to word it in a way that would be appropriate for online.
The Lie’s; to be completely and brutally honest science does not support religion either. There is no scientific way to prove there is a God, or that He created the world in 7 and yet no one is telling religious people that He does not exist. They have completely ignored science and chosen to believe in something, you may not believe that you are born gay and maybe you’re right, but is there a way to stop yourself from becoming gay. The simple fact is you cannot force yourself to not love someone, and even if you can you should not have to.
The exposure: Gays are doing no such thing. I’m thinking you may hate to admit it but gays are showing children that it is okay to be who you are and you should be accepted for that. What if your child was gay? What if your best friend was or their child was? Or your sister’s? Your brother’s? Would you tell them that it is not acceptable and they should ‘turn’ straight? Children should know that being gay is not something to be ashamed of because surprise surprise, there will continue to be gay children.
The Hate: Heterosexuals are responsible for spreading hate to gays. It’s a two way street, it works both ways. Such as being called a ‘fag’ and other much more horrible names. As an attempt to be isolated.
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I’m very Sure that Homosexuality is biologically unnatural and no matter how people explain it away or justify it, it will not change the fact that it is unnatural and is morally wrong.
Social standards will never change what is the truth.
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I just love it how everyone was so offended that I stated the fact that homosexuality is not a natural state of being ie for propagating the species.
Well I’m offended by being called a Christian … I assume because I disagree with the author; and I’m offended that the moderating on this page is so biased that it will allow personal abuse of any that do NOT tow the line / disagree with the author but not allow basic desenting comments.
Ziad
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Thoroughly support the content of the letter. Thoroughly dislike the tone. Enough of the smug self righteousness. Even Mr Nile, bonkers as his views are, deserves a respectful, rationally argued response, not a series of childish putdowns.
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I too congratulate Senator Wong and her partner Ms Allouache on impending parenthood. Please don’t lump all of us Christians into the same pile of bigots. I live my faith, it is important to me and if we must judge people, judge them as the bigots they are – not for their purported Christianity.
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“Like Jemma’s mummies, Senator Wong and her partner may not be in what you’d consider to be a ‘traditional’ relationship” – Terri
Newsflash for Terri, its not a normal natural ‘relationship’, which nature has designed for the propagation of the species. The fact that two same-sex individuals can find each other sexually attractive despite the significant inherent biological designs (chemical, hormonal, physical) to the contrary, only shows how messed up their brain wiring is. These people need mental help, not a celebration.
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I’m totally going with celebration. I’m baking them cakes and cheering how bloody awesome our society. Woohoo!
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same-sex couples need mental help, you say? surely you jest?
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I think you’re the one who needs mental help. Your comment is highly offensive, contrary to scientific research, and doesn’t belong here, save it for the next Christian crazy convention.
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This just confirms the public perception about militant gay rights advocates … irrational, emotional and ignorant. I’m Muslim!
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Whatever religion you are, your views are homophobic, irrational and offensive.
I don’t see myself as any sort of ‘activist’, I believe in equality. Quite frankly, just because you chose to fall in love with a member of the same sex doesn’t make you any different than the person next to you who falls in love with a member of the opposite sex. It changes nothing about a person other than their sexual preference, it doesn’t make you any less capable of inventing a cure for cancer!
Who the F cares who chooses to have a relationship with whom?
If you think that homosexuality is un-natural, then surely you mustn’t believe in IVF or adoption at all, because that would mean propagating the species through ‘un-natural means’.
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Yes, OK. Now go back to Westboro and leave the rest of the world in peace.
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I guess nature stuffed up with all those animals who have homosexual sex then?
Oh, wait… nature can’t stuff up, and doesn’t design things, it’s called evolution, and it’s the opposite of design. And if you bothered to actually do some research, you’d find there are some very cogent explanations of why homosexual behaviour occurs – in many species – and is perfectly natural.
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“cogent explanations of why homosexual behaviour occurs – in many species – and is perfectly natural.” ?
Natural!? Please avail yourself of research. Evolution teaches that life survives / continues to propagate through developmental advantage. Homosexuality, no matter how some would like to re-define it, is contrary to those fundamental prinicples of nature.
And btw, when my dog humps my leg, the cat, the rug, the sofa, etc … he’s not making a statement about his sexuality.
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Bloody well said.
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Thank you Terri, and Mama Mia, for publishing this. It’s a beautiful, clever, honest letter, and I hope thousands of people read it.
My sister and her gorgeous (female) partner have a daughter (7 months old). She is the most beautiful (well, fourth most beautiful – after my three kids, but I dont think that is anything to do with sexuality) little girl, and is so incredibly well loved, and cared for that it breaks my heart when I see children in less desirable homes. And there are so many children, with a male and female parent, that are not well loved: who see Mum or Dad drink too much; or beat each other, or just look after themselves, rather than their children. These children will grow up to know that the odds are high that they were conceived by accident. They may struggle with low self worth, because they have not been well loved. Where as my niece, and the child of Senator Wong, will always know how special they are; how much they were wanted that their mums had to go to special means to have them. They will be the blessed children.
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You hit the nutbar right on the head, Terri! Exactly. Love your work.
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The only thing that crosses my mind when people announce is if they will be good parents. Most people are. I doubt your sexuality comes into it.
Men and women can be excellent primary carers. If you have two parents who love and care for you, that’s the best thing you can have as a child.
I wish Ms Wong and her partner all the best and I’m so pleased to see Ms Wong with such a happy look on her face.
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“All you need is LOVE….”
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I can’t believe people like this are in a position where they influence decisions that affect the country and more importantly, are able to make such bigoted comments with minimal repercussions.
I Like the letter but i think you are being too nice and the use of ‘mummy’ somewhat diminishes the integrity of the piece. The most effective and satisfying thing you can do is thwart him with his own logic – and you are pretty darn close.
Congrats to Penny, not only on the baby but on being public and proud.
I hope you all ticked no religion in the census, i know i did.
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Congratulations to Penny and her partner and other gay couples or single people expecting babies. I’m pregnant at the moment and know what a blessing it is.
I wonder if gay couples consider whether their child will have any issues as a result of growing up in a family that is not the traditional norm because it certainly had an effect on me as a child and in particular a yound adult.
I grew up without my biological dad on the scene but had a step dad from the time I was a small child. I never quite felt like I was normal or I fitted in my family. My step dad’s family weren’t my ‘blood’ family and I didn’t look like them. I didn’t know my medical history, where my hobbies, hair or eye colour or mannerisms came from. I didn’t have ‘blood’ cousins or aunties or uncles and I felt I missed out because of it. When biological grandkids came along the step grand parents were more enamoured with them than me. They were decent people and loved me a lot, but unfortunately there is no truer statement than ‘blood is thicker than water’, for them and me.
Obviously children from non-traditional families will have their own experience and some will be ok and some won’t. I wonder if Penny and her partner have considered these issues – no doubt they have because I believe that having children should not be a selfish decision about meeting our own needs, whether we are gay or straight, but about giving the stability and love to a child.
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okay, so I feel really weird about this post because I know what a precious gift it is to be able to have a baby.
Just want to add that I hope I don’t upset anyone here who is not the ‘normal’ family. I’m not trying to make people feel horrible or not have kids because of these issues…just tryin to put an alternative view point out there…
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I think the thing to remember is that a family is a family. ‘non traditional’ family structures come about from many reasons and situations, some positive, some not so. some are actively chosen, others are thrust upon the family due to circumstance or fate.
I understand your reservations, given your background, but really, if you feel that penny wong and her partner should consider the negative impact that their relationship may have on their future family, then so should everyone else who is planning a family.
what about couples with different cultural backgrounds? age differences? parenting styles? propensity for disease? should they also take a good hard look at themselves, and what their ‘lifestyle’ may subject their family to?
There are positives and negatives to every family dynamic, but ultimately, family should be about love, and it certainly sounds like that is the case for these two women. None of us can know the future, or all the positive or negative impacts our relationships may have on our children, all we can do is love our families, and try to do the best for all it’s members.
I’m so very sorry that this may not have happened for you, but I don’t think it’s right to assume that this may be the case, in this situation, simply because the parents are gay.
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sorry – anonymous is me – forgot to login
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Actually yes, I do think that anyone wanting to be a parent should take a good hard look at themselves. Obviously we can’t plan for every scenario, and my mum didn’t plan to get pregnant or divorce my bio. dad. I don’t resent her, my dad or step family for that.
My husband and I took a good hard look at ourselves and plan to continue doing so when our baby is born. We considered several different issues including family dynamics, finances and potential medical problems our baby may have to deal with, how they could impact him and what we could do to minimise them.
I’m not saying don’t have a baby if the situation isn’t ideal, but I think it would be selfish not to consider and plan as much as we can as parents. Babies are a gift and a blessing, not a right – and let’s face it we can’t survive on love alone.
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A gay family is very different to a family where there has been a relationship breakdown. The parent who is not biologically connected enters into it as a parent – completely. In my experience they do not consider themselves a step parent or somebody not wholly a part of the child. They are there for every step of the way. I think you would find if their extended family is still in their lives, they would view things exactly the same way. It is not a step child they have met at age 3, 7, 13 or whatever it may be. It is a life that they spent a long time longing for, and they were there for conception, pregnancy and birth. They truly are their parent, grandparent, aunty, uncle and cousin.
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Hi Anon,
Your hesitations are understandable, every parents wants the best for their children, and I am sorry to hear about your difficulties in childhood.
I myself have been raised by lesbian parents since the age of two. I am 23, and am due to complete my degree in communications with honors (the reason that I am up at this hour!). I am in a wonderful long-term heterosexual relationship and am very happy with life in general
I dont see this as anything to do with my parents sexuality, it is more a testament to who they are as people and how they have parented me. You are right in saying love alone is not enough for survival, but combined with great guidance, strong morals, compassion and care, it can form a pretty great, happy individual.
All the best,
Hayley
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yay haley! very happy for you and also your mums. x
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Fred Nile you have to be kidding me. Seriously, it’s 2011 and your ship has sailed. Noone cares what you think. Retire now.
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the media are lame for reporting what he thinks.
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It really gives credence to the idea that has been floated of late to just stop reporting nutbar stuff that doesn’t deserve coverage – this kind of thing, anti-vax nuttiness…
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In this case, though, its not about just denying him airtime. The man is in a position of considerable power in the NSW Leg Council. Its really important that people understand what a complete nutcase he is.
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I still don’t understand how when the Libs got in in a landslide. I guess people are hedging their bets like we seem to in federal elections.
I agree about what a complete nutcase he is and people needing to know. I just don’t know that giving him a lot of oxygen in the media is the way to go – unless it is totally “Check what this batshit insane dude is saying” and not allowing it to become a rallying point for other batshit insane people to join him. They’re clearly around, because he never seems to get voted out.
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Personally I still cant believe he got away with this:
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/fred-nile-caught-in-web-porn-scandal-20100902-14nuc.html
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It seems Freddie’s religion has very little to do with Christianity.
My understanding is that Jesus was a leader who preached love and acceptance.
Love thy neighbour appears to be translated in Nile speak to…
Love thy neighbour only if they think like me.
I wonder which group he’ll choose to hate next week.
Freddie really doesn’t play nicely with others, does he.
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Mahatma Gandhi once said “I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. So many of your Christians are unlike your Christ.” That sums up people like Fred Nile.
Pingback: Politics and Family Life « curehomophobia
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Dear Fred,
It’s narrow-minded cretins like you that are causing people to desert the church in droves.
Regards,
Vanessa
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Thank God the Internet has provided myriad opportunities for common sense! And thank god I grew up in an Australia that always had an opposition to Fred nile! He’s still blustering, and as dangerous as ever!
I wish there was as strong a vocal opposition to channel 7 using the header ‘Wong baby’ on the 6.00 news last night. Of all the headers that could have been used this one was much too close to ‘wrong baby’ for me! Perhaps I’m super sensitive, but with Fred Nile always on the hustings it would do channel 7 to pay attention to a balanced news service rather than skewing to demographics.
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so the logic with Fred is that he is going to help all families that aren’t the “traditional” male /female parents. Does that also mean if there inst a “normal” house, or etc he will step in and ban them. What about all those single parents ( the rotters!!!)? Hold on I know some lovely people who are divorced and bringing up children on their own, I will have to tell them Fred has decided that they are unchristian.
He annoys me so much, I try to never listen to him and wonder how on earth he ever gets into parliament, surely all those Christians out there deserve a better representative.
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I would like to congratulate Penny Wong and Sophie Allouache on their wonderful news.
I would also like to stop seeing Fred Nile or Wendy Francis open their bitter mouths and spit out the ugly words they do too often.
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As a lesbian, I adore people like Penny and Sophie who are paving the way for myself and my partner who one day wish to be parents. It’s a daunting prospect given the difficulties, discrimination, and hateful things others say (thanks Fred!), but I will not be denied the right to parent children, just because others have a problem with it.
I also wanted to say thank you! It’s fantastic to see so much support and love, and INTELLIGENCE on here… it gives me hope that one day in the not so distant future when my partner and I start planning our family, that the world may be a little more supportive and accepting!
Congrats Penny and Sophie, and thank you Terri!
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What would I say to Fred Nile?
“Fred Nile, your life has contributed nothing positive nor helpful to the world. Feel free to end that.”
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I really hope the child does get to know, and bond, with their biological father
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Why? If Penny Wong and her partner have gone through an anonymous sperm donor, the donor is clearly not donating so that they can have and know ‘their’ children, but simply to help others that can’t have kids. Why does the child then need to know the donor? He/she will have two loving parents, which is much more than some.
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in news article i read today, wong said the father was known to the couple, ie not an anonymous donor. i guess it’s up to them how/when this man is included in the baby’s life. in the case of anonymous donors, isn’t there a law in australia about being able to trace your biological father once you turn 18? clearly, i am beyond hazy on the details of this but i’m sure that someon who knows much more than me will read this and help us out here. but essentially, i think it’s impossible to be completely anonymous in this regard these days. something to do with the right of a child to not be denied biological heritage. or something like that. like i said, help please…
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That would be amazing if the child could have two loving mothers AND a father who wants to be part of the childs life. men dont get enough credit i think and ill be the first to say that dads are awesome
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Also, he is not the “father” – he is the sperm donor. There is a huge difference. As the mother of a child conceived via egg donation, I feel that the appropriate terms are important. We used an egg donor – to us, she is a wonderful generous person (who is anonymous) – but she is not our son’s “biological mother” – he has one mother of any type, and that’s me! This lucky, much wanted baby has two mothers and was conceived via sperm donation…of course, because the mothers know the sperm donor, they may agree that he play a more involved role but it is up to THE MOTHERS to decide the “title” the sperm donor should have vis-a-vis their baby.
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Yes i understand your point but i am just saying that it would be wonderful if the child can have it all. If the child can have the male in their life that helped create them, well that would be so beautiful… I am in no way saying that having two mothers is inferior
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when your child grows up will you consider he has the right to call the egg donor his biological mother?
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I don’t even know how to answer such a question – what do you mean by “the right”? Where are you coming from with these odd questions?
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I don’t even know how to answer such a question – what do you mean by “the right”? Where are you coming from with these odd questions?
not sure if this is posting
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Don’t underestimate the importance of the genetic influence of the father. We understand more and more about the importance of our genes every day. Our genetic history is paramount to understanding who we are and our future medical history.
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I agree – but it is the genetics of the sperm donor that are important – a sperm donor does not equal “father”…and I’m not sure what your point is. I have said either above or elsewhere in this thread that I believe every child will have a natural curiosity about their genetic make-up and I have never said that this curiosity should be stifled or denied…however, it may not be available in the case of anonymous donations. I know of donor children of anonymous donations, they are curious but it does not define who they are.
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I was just noting that it was written that “ït is up to THE MOTHERS to decide the title the sperm donor should have vis a vis their baby”, so I was wondering how the “‘social”" mothers would react if their child grew up , turned around and said he considered the egg donor to be his biological mother, wanted to do everything in his power to track down his donor mum and perhaps even have a relationship with her.
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I’m sure they would be very hurt (which would probably please you) but yet respectful of their child’s wishes…really, what are you getting at?
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Ah, I didn’t know that they knew the father. That’s the case with someone close to me – their ‘donor’ was a good friend and they visit him regularly.
Suri, I do agree with you in this sense then – if the child can have not two but THREE loving parents, then that’s amazing! However, if the ‘father’ were simply an anonymous donor I would then say, two is enough
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At the time I fell pregnant with my first child more than 7 years ago there was talk of a national register so children could contact their donor once they turn 18 . In the months leading up to my partner and I accessing IVF the number of donors dropped from three binders full to just three.
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Groovemyth, yes it is concerning that the majority of sperm donors appear not to want to have any contact with their offspring , and it saddens me to think some kids will grow up, want to meet their bio dads and never have contact with their bio dad and many questions they have about their relatives/ancestry,medical background will go unanswered.
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I think the child should either know the biological father for medical reasons only, or have an extremely comprehensive family medical history that is updated anonymously, or the sperm donor is required to update if they are anonymous to the donor organisation or whomever, especially if, for example, his mother develops dementia or cancer…The baby/child definately need to know that stuff for your health!
I’ve been to the Dr sooooo many times and they always ask about family history of any condition, like I have lots of moles so they need to know family history of melanoma, etc.
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Family medical history, whilst important, is somewhat over-rated. For example, if you have a family history of dementia, what are you going to do about it? Sadly there is no definitive measure for prevention, other than looking after your overall health, maintaining an active mind and body, as we all should. Similarly, if you have a family history of melanoma, you should monitor your skin carefully and report any changes to your GP/dermatologist, as should all Australians, as we have the highestr melanoma rates in the world.
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I know children in non traditional families that are well adjusted, loved and happy kids. I know a couple of children in the traditional families that Fred Nile wants us all to have and they are miserable because their parents are miserable. What’s better? We shouldn’t judge anyone who wants to have a family. Personally, I’m all for gay marriage and gay adoption, IVF etc… families are families whether they are traditional or not
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Phobias are irrational fears. Please stop this misguided use of the word ‘homophobia’. Because it’s not a phobia. And please stop saying that people who disagree with homosexuality are “homophobic” or “hateful” or “bigoted”. Sometimes they might be very lovely people who simply disagree with it, it doesn’t make them “homophobic” (whatever that might mean) or hateful or bigoted.
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In my experience those who do not understand, fear. Certainly Fred’s protestations are driven by an irrational fear that us gays have some sort of an agenda to takeover society. If that’s not an irrational fear, I don’t know what is. Also, yes, I think it’s bigoted if people actively seek to deny equality.
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Don’t forget the fear that we’re going to spend our days hitting on them AND their children!
Sigh.
I mean, if I had to do that I’d have no time to get my uni work done!
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I know! I’d run out of time to pay my taxes.
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Yes, phobias are irrantional fears. So when someone is fearful of homosexuality, that is clearly an irrantional fear: seeing as you can’t ‘catch’ being gay, thus ‘homophobia’.
And ‘bigot’: a person who is utterly intolerant of any other creed, belief or opinion. If people are intolerant of homosexuality, then yes, they are a bigot.
There might very well be very lovely people who disagree with homosexuality, but then I ask you: why do they disagree? The answers will, I’m quite certain, come from a place of fear, the unknown, or the idea that homosexuality is ‘unnatural’. A big pet peeve of mine is when people say that they ‘have no problem with gay people but just don’t agree with it’. That statement makes no sense. If you have no problem, you don’t need to ‘agree with it’. It’s none of your business and and if it’s not for you (as it is not for the many heterosexual people in the world), then don’t engage in sex with someone of the same sex. But if you truly ‘don’t agree with it’, then you do have a problem with it, whatever you might say.
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Currently have several million thumbs on pre-order so I can given this comment several million thumbs up.
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Except for the bit where I twice typed ‘irrantional’. Oopsy. ‘Irrational’. But you know what I meant, I’m sure
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irrantional: a rant on an utterly illogical point
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Me Gusta this comment! Sorry, I have been reading way too many ragecomic memes…
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Leah I agree that many in the media inappropriately label people as ‘homophobic’ and ‘bigoted’.
The problem here is that, should you actually look up the dictionary definition of those terms you’ll find Fred Nile sits very comfortably within them. His anti-gay ravings are indeed irrational and frequently illinformed.
His espousing of his own views as being ‘correct’ and anyone who disagrees with those views being ‘unnatural’ manifestly displays his bigotry.
I am not gay but I do like to consider that I’m tolerant. What on earth would give me the right to decree who another person can or cannot love as long as those people are adults capable of making their own informed decisions. Nile’s ravings are good examples of fanatical Christians who are driving ‘ordinary’ people away from the church, especially those churches that have covered up or excused genuine ‘unnatural’ behaviour in the abuse of minors.
I’m not a Labor supporter but I wish Ms Wong and Ms Allouache all the best, and may they long enjoy the blessing of parenthood.
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Saying that you aren’t homophobic but you disagree with homosexuality is like saying you aren’t a vegetarian but you don’t eat meat.
Saying you don’t agree with gay people is also like saying you don’t agree with black people. Or people with disabilities. Or short people. It’s weird.
What I’m hearing is ‘I don’t like the existance of that perfectly natural thing that isn’t harming me in the slightest’.
How is that not hateful or bigoted?
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Yes it does – you can’t “disagree” with a biological thing that’s part of someone’s makeup. It’s like “disagreeing” with red hair, or brown eyes, or hairy legs.
It’s obviously a phobia, and obviously bigoted.
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Yes. It does. You don’t get to agree or disagree with anyone’s sexuality because it’s none of your business. If you presumed to ‘disagree’ with the mere existence of a person’s ethnicity or race, then you’d be bigoted. Get over your poor me-ing and accept homophobia for what it is.
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Ugh, Fred Nile.
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gold.
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I think I love you
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I a bit sick of the faith bashing but I’m also sick of people like Fred Nile who just cant mind their own bloody business. I have many friends from various faiths and they are all open, caring and thoughtful people. Without exception.
I’m Catholic, and thats my thing. I certainly dont push my choices onto others and dont expect others to live my way. Why cant people like Fred and all other extreme religious fanatics mind their own business and leave people alone to live their lives the way they choose to.
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I’d like to add my congratulations to Penny & Sophie,
I’m completely against most of Ms Wong’s political views, but this transcends that – I just hope the pregnancy and birth all goes well for both of you. As I saw somewhere, maybe we need to remind Fred (and Julia and all the others…) that allowing gay marriage won’t necessarily make it compulsory.
I’m a married hetero male with 3 children born via IVF. The oldest is 13, and all three know the circumstances behind their birth. It may go against the loving nature of this article, but if anyone calls OUR children unnatural to my face, THERE WILL BE MAYHEM AND CONSTERNATION
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you know i would never do that! come on. think happy thoughts. and you know i don’t think they’re unnatural – i was using an argument based on being clinical. we good?
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Now, you know its not you that I was thinking of
On the other hand, ‘christians’ like ex Senator Harradine (who made restrictions on IVF part of his conditions for supporting a previous LNP government) and Fred Nile ….
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Anyone want to call Julia Gillard on NOT supporting gay marriage or just hit up the usual suspects?
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hey tracker, please see my reply to kerr (below.) but i’m with you. i think.
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It’s so horrible that so many people are lumped in with the handful of people that should be classified as extremists or fundamentalists. Not all Muslims are bad, but thanks to Osama & a mouthy sheik, they have a stigma. Likewise Christians are all labelled because of the comments of one man. I am a Christian. I love God & believe Christ Jesus died & rose for me. I do not need a man like Fred Nile speaking on my behalf & causing backlash to my faith.
Fred – I think it’s time to stop voicing your opinion as though you speak for every Christian. We live in a secular world & shouldn’t judge non-believers against our faith.
As for some of the disscussion below, the laws in the old testament that are being quoted were supercceded by the ones in the new testament, ultimately coming down to this – love God & love people.
Congratulations Penny & Sophie – I hope the pregnancy & birth go smoothly for you
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Glad to hear the Old Testament is now obsolete. I assumed that because so many Christian leaders quote it when it suits them, it was still relevant.
I may be missing something, but I can’t find a single word from Jesus about homosexuality. I know the bible mentions it, but not Jesus, as far as I can see. So if the old testament is out, and it’s all about what Jesus said, why does Christianity denounce homosexuality?
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The year is 2011. A 33-year old man, supposedly a virgin, practices and preaches love, compassion and forgiveness whilst urging the suffering of children to join him. He travels most commonly with an almost exclusively all male gang of twelve, many of whom he makes public displays of kissing. Indeed, one of his entourage uses the device of kissing him in a public place to identify him to others. So we have a person who, to all external observations, must be gay (according to Fred Nile’s observations). According to people Like Fred N men kissing men in public is certainly an annatural thing.
What should we do with this bloke? How about we lock him away from our children (to save their suffering) and remove him from a more ‘natural’ society. Or… we could take him back about two thousand years, reveal his name as Jesus Christ, and create a religion around him.
Just a thought.
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Love this. As Christians we need to hold other Christians accountable to our rules, not non-Christians.
Brett, the entire Old Testament is not obsolete. You have to read the New Testament to see what it says about particular parts of the Old Testament. The New Testament (not just Jesus but other figures too) denounces stoning people etc, but still affirms that homosexuality (among many other things – homosexuality is never singled out as especially bad, as some Christians seem to act) as wrong. Jesus actually reaffirmed most Old Testament rules BUT said the applicable punishments (eg, stoning) were no longer acceptable.
So, the Old Testament is still relevant, but you need to view it in light of what the New Testmant says about it.
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So, fee283 says “the laws in the old testament that are being quoted were supercceded by the ones in the new testament”
and you say, “the Old Testament is still relevant”.
OK. That’s cleared that up then.
So, Christianity is not about what Jesus said, even though it’s named after him. Someone else in the bible said homosexuality is wrong, but Jesus appears to have no problem with it, but we’ll go with the other person, not Jesus. OK.
“As Christians we need to hold other Christians accountable to our rules, not non-Christians.”
Well they’re your rules, not mine. I don’t need to rely on confused ramblings from an Iron Age text or an invisible dude in the sky to know what’s right and wrong.
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If I wasn’t comfortably hetro, I’d totally root you, Brett. Where have you been all my life?
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I was always under the impression that the Old Testament was the rules of life etc UNTIL Jesus came along, and his teachings cancelled out the Old Testament ones, if that helps.
But the use of the phrase ‘Invisible dude in the sky’? Come on, Brett, are you a teenager in 1994?
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How about a letter to Julia Gilliard who is happy for her colleague, but not happy enough to support her right to marry her partner.
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kerr, i see where you’re coming from and i would also love to see the PM change her stance on the legality of gay marriage in australia. the reason i wrote to fred and not julia is because attending jemma’s birthday party on the weekend and then reading der-fred’s comments straight afterwards got me all het about the two mummies issue. maybe i need to need to attend a gay engagement party and then get fired up over gillard…any invites gladly accepted, i’m a good party guest who knows when to leave and always uses a coaster….
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“let go of hate, let go of homophobia, let go of racial intolerance, let go of the need to witness. He has let go of the dogma, let go of religion, and embraced a more open idea of God and Spirit”
Sparky, since that stands in direct conflict to what our most religious Christian leaders are telling us their religion teaches, I sincerely hope your father correctly marked down “no religion” on the 2011 census. Otherwise he’s beefing up the numbers that Christian extremists use to exert their political influence on the rest of us.
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I’m pretty sure the “let go of religion” bit gives you the answer there.
I don’t think that people who ARE religious should feel in any way pressured to deny their faith because of a few extremists though.
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I just feel sorry for Penny Wong. If she didn’t announce it, the media might have went nuts over it in the coming months and the coalition probably would have used that as a weapon against the labour party. On the other hand, she announced it to the public, and has to put up with ignorant comments like that from Fred Niles.
Does it really matter what our minister’s and prime minister’s personal life and marital statuses are for them to run a bloody country! Get a life already Fred Niles! The bible told you to love! All you’re doing is hate! How is that a good example of God!
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I dont think Penny Wong will suffer any loss for finding herself on the wrong side of Fred Niles moral standards. Being on Fred’s right side might have been more of a problem.
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Fantastic article Terri, thank you. And congratulations to Penny and Sophie.
Terri my family sounds like the friends you write about – we have a gorgeous little boy and a divine baby girl – same father, different biological mums – and they are beautiful beautiful beautiful little beings. They are so loved, so nurtured, so protected and were so very very wanted.
Fred Nile should be ashamed of himself.
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your post makes me very happy, thank you. hip hip hoorays for your two little squishies. (hope you don’t mind that term – it’s what i call cute kids…including mine. yes, biased.) x
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Look at the photos – Penny and Sophie have happy smiling faces, Fred has a scowl and looks angry. That says it all!
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Penny and Sophie are hotties…..Fred is nottie !
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Penny and Sophie rules, Fred drools!
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Senator Wong and her partner may be fabulous parents but it is undeniable that neither one of them is the baby’s biological father and that the child is deliberately being denied a relationship with its biological father ( and his extended family).
I can empathise with Senator Wong and her partner’s wish to have a child, but I believe the child has a right to have a relationship with both it’s biological parents as this forms part of the child’s identity.
We know that many children who were adopted out feel badly that they cannot have a relationship with their biological parents, so why deliberately create difficulties for children?
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Here’s an article on the psychological impact of adoption on kids
http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/f_adimpact.cfm
It is acknowledged that some adopted people suffer by not having knowledgeof/contact with their biological parent/s and it is not homophobic to point this out, it is a fact.
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http://library.adoption.com/articles/lifelong-issues-in-adoption.html
Here is one more article looking at the psychological impact of adoption on children. Issues can arise not only in childhood and adolescence but through to adulthood. We cannot , in the face of this information, pretend that :single mothers having donor sperm, hetero couples using donor gametes, gay couples using donor gametes is as good for children ( all other things equal) as coming into the world starting off with a regular bio mum and bio dad.
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So should wonderful loving people such as infertile women, sterile men, gay couples etc… never be given the opportunity to have children? Purely out of unlucky circumstance?
Perhaps you might feel differently if you had a hysterectomy and couldn’t have children, or your husband is sterile, or you happen to be a woman who fell in love with another woman and needed support and assistance in having or adopting a child.
I’m incredibly lucky. I’m straight, I’m fertile and I’m in a relationship with a man I love and right now, I don’t want children. I’m utterly heart broken that this ability has been given to me, when honestly, someone else could make far more use of it because I might never use it.
I work with kids that have experienced trauma and I swear, if it wasn’t illegal I would snatch half the kids I work with from their abusive and damaging straight parents and deliver them to arms of ANY gay couple I have EVER met that wants children.
Being a parent should not be exclusive to those who are straight, married and fertile. That’s ridiculous.
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My sister is adopted and has always known that she is, she made contact with her ‘biological’ mother when she was 16, special circumstances as normally it is 18, and has had NOTHING but grief ever since, she regularly says she wishes she had never met her. She keeps in contact with her out of some weird sense of obligation – her words not mine.
But it has NEVER been a bed of roses.
She excelled in her HSC her ‘mother’ put her down, she did brilliantly at Uni her ‘mother’ told her it was a waste of time and that she would never amount to anything… She has spent years trying to work out her place in this world – with her ‘mother’ who treats her like shit or with her family who love her dearly…
So don’t try to tell me that knowing your biological family is the be all and end all. I have no doubt whatsoever that my sister would be far better off never having met her ‘mother’
ps Congratulation for Penny & Sophie hope it all goes smoothly for then.
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My sentiments exactly. ‘Biological parents’ can simply mean ‘two people who shagged one night’.
Oh and I’d like make another point. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a gay couple to have an accidental pregancy. Every child being raised by gay parents is planned. Every. Single. One. That’s more than I can say for a lot of the children that were born to my heterosexual friends.
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Jenn, your adopted sister’s bio mother may well be a strange/dififcult person. However, as you stated yourself she made contact with her biological mother, so it appears she wanted to meet her biological mother out of curiosity and /or the desire to have a relationship with her. Yes, sometimes people”s bio parents leave a lot to be desired, but sometimes adopted kids don’t fancy their adoptive families and harbour fantasies that their biological parents would be wonderful.
It appears that many people here think everyone has a right to have a child if they so wish, but few believe that children have a right to grow up with their biological parents.
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I’m still not sure exactly what you mean. By ‘biological parent’ are you referring to the guy that jizzed in a cup? Or the parents that put their kids up for adoption? Or the guy who doesn’t even know he’s a father because his one night stand ‘shoplifted’ his sperm?
Giving birth to a child does not make you a parent. Raising that child does.
I believe all children have the right to be raised by people or a single person who love them.
You are putting far too much emphasis on biology. Any man and woman can make a baby. Or any woman and a turkey baster can make baby. It takes parents – one parent, two mothers, two fathers, a mother and a father, a family to raise a baby.
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Studies re: adoption are not applicable to donor (egg and/or sperm donor) babies. On its surface, people may say “oh, children born via egg/sperm donor would feel very similar to children who were adopted”. This statement is not true (I wish I had links to studies, I don’t, but I’ve seen them). Adoption is different, a child was conceived, carried, birthed and then put up for adoption (I hope I’m using the correct terms). Whereas, with children conceived via egg/sperm donation, this is simply not the case. No one “gave up” a child – and for whatever reason, this really makes a difference as to how children conceived via egg/sperm donation feel. That being said, I agree that in most cases all children will be curious about their biology at some point in time – with donor children, the curiosity is not about “I want to know my mother/father” as the parent(s) are the people who were the recipients of the sperm/egg donation. Rather, it is “I want to know about my biology” – it’s a natural curiosity rather than some quest to know a parent.
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http://www.slate.com/id/2256212/ This article looks at an American study which investigated kids raised by their biological parents versus kids raised by adoptive parents and kids who are the product of donor gametes.
The study found that:
“”Regardless of socioeconomic status, donor offspring are twice as likely aas those raised by biological parents to report problems with the law before age 25. They are more than twice as likely to report having struggled with substance abuse. And they are about 1.5x as likely to report depression and other mental health problems”.
I have met many people who were adopted who tracked down their bio parents for various reasons and many of them certainly desired to have a relationship with their bio parent.
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I am familiar with that study – it was funded by a group from the religious right to support their view that donor egg/sperm pregnancies should be forbidden. It is not an unbiased study. Google them and read the comments to various articles quoting this study – it will provide further info.
PS – I think you will also find that there is a big difference between the views of donor children who “always” knew they were conceived via a donor and those who “found out” later – either by accident or because they were sat down at what their parents thought was an appropriate age and told. Children who are told “from birth” with age appropriate stories are very well adjusted. As I said above, there is a natural curiosity about one’s biology but as for the “issues” – I think those are rubbish and there are other causes for those issues.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/20/national/20siblings.html?pagewanted=2
This is an article about children who are product of donor sperm been keen to track down their half siblings and have a relationship with them.
Interestingly, the article notes that if the men donating sperm could not be anonymous there would be a drop in the no of sperm donors.
What message does it give a person who is product of donor gametes, when they find out the gamete donor does not want to be contacted by them? Seems like rejection to me. A pretty strong message that the donor wants nothing to do with them. The donor gave the gametes not knowing who was going to get them, how the recipients would care for the child that might result etc.
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http://familyscholars.org/category/pubs-parenthood/
Anyone interested in looking at the study of kids raised by their bio parents versus kids raised by adoptive parents vs kids who are the product of donor gametes, can click on the above link. The methodological limitations of the study are discussed from I think page 119 onwards. This is a recent study 2010, and I could not find any similar ones, which I assume is because noone has looked at this before because reproductive technology is relatively new. However, if anyone is aware of similar studies with different results please share them.
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Guys, every single time there is a discussion here about gay marriage, adoption, abortion or any similarly “contraversial” topic, Catherine is here to provide links to stupid biased studies and her narrow-minded bigoted views. It’s like she’s on a mission to spread her stone age, homophobic Christian propaganda. I’ve stopped paying attention to her comments and links to “studies” a long time ago, I suggest others do the same and maybe then she will stop.
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Anonymous, I would be delighted for you to find me a study which says that children ( who then grow tup to be adults) who are the product of donor gametes are as happy and well adjusted as those raised by their biological parents. Instead of verbally abusing me how about you cite some studies to support your view?
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My sister was adopted and had the opportunity to contact her birth parents once she turned 18. She had no interest whatsoever and 25 years later still has no interest. Our parents were completely devoted to us and could not have loved us more.
Both my children have the same anonymous donor and I will be supporting them 100% whether they decide to contact their donor or not.
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“Senator Wong said the couple knew the biological father and that he would be known to the child, which is due in December.”
I think it’s nice that Penny and Sophie have chosen someone they know, and who will be known to the child. It is important to know your genetic background, if only for medical reasons. I hope the donor’s extended family welcome their new addition too!
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Your assumption that lesbians exclude ‘fathers’ is just plain wrong. A recent study out of LaTrobe Uni showed that nearly 70% of gay couples had either a known donor or a child that was conceived in a straight relationship.
The VAST majority of lesbian couples do not set out to have kids in isolation, many choose known donors, those who are unable to source a known donor go to great lengths to make sure their children have male role models (uncles, borthers, grandparents, friends). Penny and Sophie stated that they used a known donor who will be known to their child. The child will have a relationship with their biological and non-biological parent as well as with their biological father.
For more information on the LaTrobe study: http://bouverie.org.au/research/current-bouverie-centre-research-projects/work-love-play-understanding-resilience-same-sex
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I may have a crush on you Two Mummies.
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Aw shucks….I won’t tell my want-to-be-wife if you don’t
(took the plunged and signed up as a member and my name got ‘edited’ a bit to twomummies.
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Wait. You’re only half of the two mummies? I always assume the two of you were sitting there posting and scrolling and being so clever.
This must be like the way I imagine the woman who tells you the options to press to speak to someone from customer service is really, really hot.
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Well the other half of Two Mummies reckon’s I’m hot
but she’s a tad biased and funnily enough she is sitting right next to me now as I type and our 6 year old is on the couch waiting not-so-patiently for the Brady Bunch to come on telly!
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I was just about to post the same thing!
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Oh Catherine, you’re back again. Please try and get the facts before you post – this child WILL have access to the donor, and your ‘studies’ are a bit one sided don’t you think?
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Can we stop using the word ‘empathise’ when ‘sympathise’ is more accurate.
If you truly empathised you’d likely change your opinion!
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Redballoon, I have met plenty of people who have used donor sperm/eggs in their quest to have a child but I have also met plenty of adoptees who have been very unhappy about not being able to find their bio parents/have a relationship with their bio parents. Seems to me that most people posting here are more concerned with people having a right to a child than the kids right to: knowing their biological parents, having contact with their biological relatives, having a clear sense of their identity etc.
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i would just like to add that all of those children who are in orphanages. all of those children waiting to be adopted. they are not being given the chance to find their biological parents. so right now they not only have no biological parents, but no adoptive parents either. no parents full stop. so dont you dare sit there and tell me that adoptive parents aren’t giving their child the right to their identity. because all of those children without parents have no idea of the biology behind who they are. and im pretty sure that given the option, those children would choose to have two parents who love and care for them, whether or not they gave birth to them
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Do we know that the baby will be ‘deliberately … denied a relationship with its biological partner’? The report that initially broke the news stated that the father was known to both mothers but that they would not reveal his name. That’s surely their prerogative, especially at this time. Nowhere does it say that the baby will be denied a relationship with him. I think we might be jumping the gun, here, and judging them before the fact.
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and what about single parents who go through IVF or adoption? they are denying the child rights to their other biological parent. but because they’re not homosexual no one has a problem with it. they are raising a child with one parental figure. they are apparently denying the child rights. so why are there not laws against that? because they are people who want a child that they can love, nurture and raise. just like homosexual couples.
what about straight people who are unable to have children? are they just supposed to grin and bear it due to being unlucky? children without any parents have many difficulties, created by being unlucky, or having parents who couldnt give a toss about having a child. by adopting that child they are giving it a chance, they are giving it a family.
and it was never said that they wouldn’t allow the child to know the biological father.
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Penny Wong: Fierce Lady. Loves it.
Fred Nile: I cannot even start on how I feel about this bigot.
And that’s all I’m going to say about that, otherwise, it will just end with me crying. I’m getting really damn sick of homophobia right about now, it’s killing my soul and belief in human dignity.
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Why did my comment get deleted? I didn’t write anything to harsh except calling him arrogant which is a fair call when you claim you know better then anyone else and push that opinion into parliament and the papers.
In fact it was much nicer then the above article- I know him and I like him well enough as a person but I find his I know better attitude very off putting in his public life.
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I don’t know about the moderators, but the last line about his sick wife seemed a bit sharp. I’m not saying it’s not a dinner party line I wouldn’t use, but i’d probably regret it in the morning.
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I hardly think that Ms Wong and her partner are having a baby to “promote the lesbian lifestyle”….is there a recruitment drive going on at the moment ??
Rev Nile, where are your ethics ?? Oops, I forgot, you don’t like them either ….
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Well they can’t get married so they may be short a toaster oven
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Well of course there’s a recruitment drive … it’s a key component of The Gay Agenda! We have meetings to figure out ways to make the GLBTQI lifestyle more appealing, and Fred was right, Penny and Sophie are heading up the newest campaign to promote the lesbian lifestyle, because obviously, heterosexual women are going to flock to our team once they realise that instead of finding a nice bloke, having a shag, and falling pregnant, they can instead find a nice woman, have a shag, pay thousands of dollars and undergo all kinds of clinical/medical procedures in order to fall pregnant and then be publicly criticised, shamed and derided for having the temerity to indulge their maternal urge, not to mention spend the rest of their lives fielding inane and inappropriately personal questions about their choice/implementation of being a parent.
Fred Nile, for all his preaching about sin, is guilty of one of the worst sins in my opinion, having intelligence yet failing to use it.
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Shhhhh it’s supposed to be a secret!
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What are you talking about? I LOVE personal questions, and I’m not even a parent, I just get them about my sex life and choice of clothes, so fun
I love the phrase ‘but your so pretty…have you tried sleeping with a man? I’m sure you’d find one!’
I also LOVE getting told to ‘stop being such a moody bitch, I was only trying to educate myself’ when I respond to prying questions with ‘I’m not google, and it’s none of your damn business’
UGH. GOD.
Sorry, touched a nerve there, I think
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I’m always recruiting. It’s a 24 hour job, being a Lesbian Recruiter. I don’t sleep!
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Recently retired High Court judge = Gay.
Sorry, does that mean his highly qualified and brilliant legal skills are obsolete because his life partner is a man??
OH DEAR FRED, you had better lobby the government to legislate to essentially overturn the thousands of decisions he made during his time as a judge (and it was a very long career, so you had better get started now).
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So glad I put ‘No Religion’ on the census….the intolerance and bigotry as spewed forth by religious extremists like Fred Nile is disgusting.
I know their are also more moderate, tolerant religious people out there as well but I’ve absolutely had enough of the hipocricy within organized religion.
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I long ago reached the FYFred Nile point (that’s “eff you”, btw). His comments on this matter are proof positive to me that he is unfit to hold office.
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What happened to the original comment from JohnJames?
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We’ve been deleting anything that’s just abusive or offensive. Fred Nile is obviously an easy one to get riled about, but we’re trying to set a good example and keep things civil
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For the record, I deleted it, not MM
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Oh, really? Sorry! I just assumed yours was one of the ones Nicky cleaned up! Sorry JJ … and you know it’s not personal
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Yep – I deleted it because someone edited my comment…at which point it no longer represented my opinion, so I deleted it…
I completely understand why it was edited…I was being a smart-arse and really pushing the boundaries of acceptable comments on MM…it was bound to happen one day…
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Well I find the comment from Rosie much more offensive – any chance that it can be removed?
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I’ll have a read in a sec, we’ve been in editorial meetings.
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Thanks Louie. It’s just my opinion. And I’m not forcing it on you. It matters not that I would have no problem with Penny and Sophie and their child does it? Would I do it differently, me yes. But does that matter? Nope. Stating what God’s ideal is doesn’t mean I denounce any other way. To think that is actually ludicrous. Sorry you were offended but I still hold my opinion as you do yours. It really is quite sad that one mention of the word “Christian” on here means you get called a bigot and worse. You don’t even know me. If you did you’d know you can be a Christian and not some loudmouthed offensive freak.
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Being a Christian won’t have you being called bigoted here.
However being a bigoted Christian ( Muslim,Jain, Zoroastrian,atheist etc) just might!
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How do you know what God’s ideal is? Its hilarious that religion thinks that god made special rules and told someone about them and they passed it on. If there is a god, and he is the almighty creator, didn’t he create everyone exactly as he intended?
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I had a look Louie. While I certainly don’t agree with what Rosie had to say, she at least said it with civility. If the debate stays civil there will be plenty on here who disagree with her and we can assess each viewpoint for ourselves.
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You are of course right Rick! Wrong to suggest shutting down debate just because I find the views baffling. Apologies – religion does make me a little Shirty the slightly aggressive bear………….
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I am equally baffled! But I do like having the debate ‘)
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What a fantastic letter! To save Nicki the trouble of deleting me, I won’t say what I think about Fred Nile.
Instead I’d like to mention a gay couple who live near us. They are foster parents to two little boys – the older one is in the same class as my Miss 5. I’m not privy to the full details of the boys’ history – but I know enough to make my heart hurt. (Although presumably Fred’s heart would be fine with this, since both a man and a woman were involved, and that’s what really counts, hey Fred?) Over the last year or so, I’ve watched the older boy go from an overweight, angry, hurting little boy who would lash out at the slightest thing, to a happy, healthy, confident and astute one, top of his class in reading. All due to the love, care, guidance and safety provided by his two amazing daddies.
Fred Nile, your views are utterly contemptible.
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Why is it that anti-social and bigoted comments made by people speaking on behalf of religious organisations are tolerated? Religious organisations are always ready to stand up and claim to be speaking as a moral authority yet I’m sure the majority of Australian find their comments repugnant (given that less than 7% of Australians attend church). The Rev Fred Nile needs to be given a good forehead slap (the common result in my household for saying something stupid!)
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Very good point. If someone from the major parties said something like this, they would be rightly taken to task by both the media and their colleagues, but if it’s from a religious group…