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Acu 380x427 Is alternative medicine a waste of time?

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Alternative medicine is bollocks.

That’s the view of the Friends of Science in Medicine, professors and scientists, who say offering university courses in fields like homeopathy, iridology, reflexology, kinesiology, healing touch therapy, aromatherapy and energy medicine is a baseless waste of time and insult to science.

THE CRITICS

The Medical Journal of Australia recently featured a stinging editorial on this subject, authored by members of the FSM:

“Pseudoscientific courses sully the genuinely scientific courses and research conducted at the same institution,” said professors Alastair MacLennan and Robert Morrison, who co-wrote the editorial.

“Subjects such as acupuncture and chiropractic are claimed to treat a broad array of afflictions and are taught as such. The levels of evidence supporting these alternative beliefs are weak at best, and such randomised controlled trials of these therapies as exist mostly do not support their efficacy (with the exception of acupuncture for some types of pain).

“Some self-regulated chiropractors’ associations have a more extreme vision that chiropractic should become the major primary-care discipline.

Alarmingly, some chiropractors now extend their manipulation of the spine to children, making claims that this can cure asthma, allergies, bedwetting, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, colic, fever and numerous other problems, and serve as a substitute for vaccination.

“We respect those who distance themselves from such unproven beliefs.

“Their [university] scientists and students should be concerned by any retreat from the primacy of an experimental, evidence-based approach in science and medicine. Academics at these institutions need to stand up for science. Anatomists cannot be asked to support the validity of the meridian channels of acupuncture, pharmacologists cannot advocate, without evidence of efficacy, the use of herbal and homeopathic medicines to naturopaths, and physiologists cannot be asked to explain mythical subluxation theory to chiropractic students.

Federal funding is wasted in supporting pseudoscience through expenditure on campuses that offer such courses, if they directly or indirectly encourage the use of unproven therapies, and through subsidies for rebates that private insurers provide for these treatments.”

CURING CANCER WITH VEGETABLES

Those at the extreme other end of the spectrum believe alternative medicines are a better way of dealing with a range of diseases and conditions. Can you cure cancer with root vegetables and yoga? Some believe you can. These extreme types shun stethoscope-medicine entirely in the midst of herbal remedies and diet cleanses.

But part of the heavy criticism of alternative methods is they lead groups of people like these to believe they don’t need regular medicine at all and can cure cancer with a diet change, or vaccinate using homeopathic dilutions. The Google Doctor brigade who think they’ve discovered something better than GP clinics and emergency wards and cancer treatment centres. Aren’t we encouraging them?

But believe it or not, there’s a middle-ground too.

Dr Kerryn Phelps Is alternative medicine a waste of time?

Prof. Kerryn Phelps

THE ADVOCATE

Professor Kerryn Phelps AM is no quack. Former head of the Australian Medical Association and current President of the Australasian Integrative Medicine Association, she argues the best approach has always been one of a joint-strike between the marvels of modern medicine and the mystique of traditional methods.

Doctors and medical treatments are fantastic for acute and emergency interventions,” she says. “If your appendix bursts I don’t know anyone who is going to get a homeopathic course of treatment to wait it out and try and fix it, you just get a doctor to whip it out. But for chronic pain and long term diseases with long term affects, you’d be surprised how effective alternative methods can be at treating these,” she says.

“Part of the problem is the title. Complementary medicine is just that. It’s complementary. It’s not ‘instead of’ it shouldn’t be only alternative. Many doctors are mixing and matching because they can see the results for themselves. Integrative medicine – where we use a combination – is the dominant paradigm in Germany and most of Europe. We are very much behind the 8-ball in Australia.”

Prof. Phelps rattles off a list of the world’s most prestigious universities including Harvard, Yale and Stanford who teach integrative medicine. She wrote the first textbook on integrative health (General Practice) and that, together with another book, contains some 5000 references to scientific studies, she says.

“I’ve always taken a more holistic approach to medicine but I will point out that I don’t say one or the other philosophical approach to medicine is all good or all bad. I use clinical judgment that will do the least harm.”

And that includes, she says, having trained doctors and medical personnel who know their way around complementary medicine, even if it means spending time learning about it from an ‘evidence-based approach’ at university.

For her part, Prof. Phelps says she shares many of the basic concerns for research and evidence in the field that the Friends of Science in Medicine do, but says they’re making more enemies than friends in medicine.

What should unite us all is the desire to do what is safest and most effective for our patients, which includes respecting their choices and preferences for safe and effective complementary therapies,” she says.

What’s your view on alternative medicine? Do you use it? Believe it works? Where do you draw the line? Should it be taught in universities?

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294 Comments so far

  1. Sarah

    it’s funny because a lot of ‘Western’ medicine itself has come from so-called ‘traditional’ practices. aspirin is made from tree bark, something i doubt was first discovered by some biomedical practitioner.

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  2. E

    I have a chronic rare respiratory condition I’m 26 for as long as I can remember I have always been at the doctor getting antibiotics for ear infections or chest infections or in hospital with pneumonia or Tonsilitis, 2 years ago I started seeing a naturopath she equipped with good quality vitamin and mineral supplements which were very specific to my needs along with my regular cupping and good diet I have been to the doctor twice in 2 years and been on antibiotics twice in 2 years. A opposed to being on them every 5 weeks or so when my immune system would break down again. Without natural medicine I would not have had this new well being . It also educates you- our bodies r a temple and we (mostly) control its destiny (some illnesses and conditions can’t b controlled I know) What we feed our bodies and what we do with our bodies affects how it will respond. food for thought but I do not regret seeking “alternative medicine”

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  3. Motez

    Very good blog you have here but I was wanting to know if you knew of any dsisuscion boards that cover the same topics talked about here? I’d really love to be a part of group where I can get advice from other experienced individuals that share the same interest. If you have any recommendations, please let me know. Thanks a lot!

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  4. kate in wellington

    I am reading a book right now by Paul Callaghan, one of NZ’s greatest scientists and communicators who very sadly died last week. There is a chapter about science and pseudoscience.
    The huge difference between science and pseudoscience is in the evidence. Science is all about the rules of evidence and he says that the greatest contribution that science has made in medicine – greater than antibiotics, pain relievers, or anything you can think of – is the randomized, double blind placebo controlled trial.
    I like the way he describes how pseudoscience works – appeals are me directly through the media, rather than through research channels, or peer review, it is based on anecdotal experience and there is also some sort of conspiracy trying to suppress it.
    Finally, I love this idea – that pseudoscience tries to wear the mantel of science (e.g. by using scientific-sounding language) without adhering to any of the obligations of science (e.g. to scruntinized peer view, to standards of evidence). Pretty much sums it up for me.

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    • Jane DJ

      For many people, science is a complete mystery. It might as well be an occult priesthood. They never, ever think about how things really work, let alone about the molecular basis of matter. Thunder is caused by clouds banging together. etc.

      All they know of science is that their high school science teacher was to be mocked and the kids who went into it were geeks and nerds.

      It is very difficult to persuade such people that there are some treatment modalities which simply cannot work unless a vast amount of other stuff we know with great confidence is completely wrong. “Researching” the “facts” they find on the internet just is not going to cut it unless they have the trained ability to recognise legitimate science.

      As the French mathematician Henri Poincare pointed out
      Science is facts; just as houses are made of stones, so is science made of facts; but a pile of stones is not a house and a collection of facts is not necessarily science.

      And for pointing it out we get oh you meany eggheads in your ivory towers, it’s just your opinion, anyway I’m right because I have common sense/wisdom/street smarts. So frustrating.

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  5. Will

    ‘Alternative medicine’ doesn’t work. If it did, it would just be called ‘medicine’ and become part of general medical understanding. Homeopathy (sugar water), chyropractic (nonsense back cracking) and cancer curing fruit (criminal negligence) is not part of medicine because it doesn’t work.

    You can’t have a ‘philosophical approach’ to medicine, you either have an approach that has proven efficacy, or you have an approach that doesn’t work and so calls itself ‘alternative’ to try and hide the fact that it doesn’t work.

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  6. lucindainthesky

    The thing that worries me about natural/complementary medicines is that people will blindly take them without consulting a GP in relation to other pre-existing conditions they have or medications they take, and a naturopath is not qualified to dispense accurate information about specific properties of certain herbs/plant extracts/oils and how they can interact or affect other medications etc. For example certain things are said to have an effect on thinning blood and therefore people who take blood thinners like warfrin should not take it. St Johns Wart is a known natural antidepressant, but while a GP prescribing antidepressants will either already know or check if you have a seizure disorder, a naturopath won’t. And that is a big problem because there is growing evidence that natural antidepressants like St Johns Wart (like prescribed antidepressants) can often lower seizure threshold or interact with anti-convulsant medication.

    I think sometimes for minor ailments anything is worth a shot, particularly if traditional medicine isn’t working, but I recommend telling your GP anything natural you are considering taking because I dislike the ability of persons of no scientific or medical background whatsoever being able to dispense advice on “alternatives” which can do more harm than good. And not only this, but because they are labelled “alternative” they would never be held liable if they told someone to take something and sent them into anaphylactic shock and killed them. How can they if they are not actually medical practitioners? To me this is where the grey area is.

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    • Cat

      Naturopaths study for 4 years full time to obtain their Bachelor of Health Science (Naturopathy), these courses are incredibly science based, where part of the course is learning how to read and interpret scientific papers and there are many classes on drug/nutrient/herb interactions. The natural health industry is fast moving towards evidence based practices and we must always remember that science is only what we know now, just because there is not a scientific paper on something does not mean that it is not true.
      However is saying all this there are also “alternative” therapies that have been used for centuries, acupuncture, Chinese and Ayurvedic medicine for example, that work in other cultures and are part of their main stream health care.
      Being extreme at either end of the spectrum is probably not the best way to go, question your doctor, question your naturopath and listen to them both.

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  7. Kris2040

    Sums it up, really. ;)

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  8. Bec

    I think we should stop calling alternative medicine “alternative medicine”. It makes it seem like you have to choose one or the other. Why can’t we have both? Even at the same time. I have never been to a doctor who said trying “alternative” therapies would be bad. Never been to an “Alternative” therapist that said I should stop the western medicine.

    I used to get accupuncture fairly regularly when I was young. Have suffered from chronic migraines since I was a child and I found that accupuncture was a great way of preventing them. Yet, if I did get the odd migraine I wouldn’t be down getting acupuntcure to make it go away (The smell of insense would have probably made me vomit) I would be straight of to the hospital for that magical needle they stick in my butt to fix me right up. Both had a place in my treatment, and I wouldn’t have wanted to survive without either.

    Yes I suppose you could say the acupunture was just a placebo effect. Maybe the fact that I lay down for an hour listening to soothing music with fancy smells around me was enough to relax me and in turn resulted in fewer migraines. Maybe a facial and a manicure would have done the same thing. However, whether it was real, or placebo, my migraines were greatly reduced and that’s all I cared about, as any migraine sufferer would understand. Sadly the man that did my acupunture moved away and there is not another one within an hour of me, so I haven’t been in years.

    While I definitely think “alternative” medicine has a deserved place in treatment for most conditions, the people that say eating correctly will cure you are just nuts. Whether you have cancer or a sprained ankle, or absolutely nothing wrong with you, eating well is going to make you feel better. If your body is fueled properly it is going to fight harder. Eating well should be a vital part of everyday living, not just when you are sick. Yes you might fight that cancer better if you are eating well than someone who lives off frozen dinners, but that doesn’t mean you should throw chemo/radiation/surgery out the door because you believe eating 107 red capsicums a day will cure it. Try both.

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    • Twinarp

      Its called ‘alternative’ medicine because it is not medicine.
      “one of a number of things from which only one can be chosen” is a good definition of alternative.

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    • Kim

      Nice response Bec. I think we can and should have both and that perhaps people need to remember to refer to it as “complementary” rather than “alternative” which seems so black/white, on/off.

      The below is not specifically for you Bec, it’s just me putting my 2 cents out there for others if they care to read.

      My experience has been with chiro where I go for an adjustment every 4-6 weeks. I understand there are some chiropractors who also practice “woo” and to be honest I’m not sure if mine does or not but what I do know is that I trust him to look after the alignment of my skeletal system (which also affects my nervous system). And when I don’t make it for my adjustment on a regular basis I end with back aches and migraines.

      Unfortunately it seems that the chiro’s who also practice “woo” have tarnished the reputation of those who can do some good (this “all-eggs-in-the-one-basket” mentality annoys me). Along with those who are citing stories about chiropractors being sued should not be about whether chiropractic medicine is good or not, but rather about the competence or lack thereof of the practitioner.

      Like any profession, medical or otherwise, there are always going to be differing levels of competency, with those severly lacking competency ending in court cases. Kind of like if you went to the dentist and they ended up pulling the wrong tooth, you’d probably want to sue them too over their lack of competency.

      BTW, if you’re still reading this far, I am pro-medicine, pro-vax but also selective about complementary medicine. I think natural news and mercola is pure quackery and hype. These are my opinions and my choices, be a grown and decide for yourselves based on whatever lets you sleep at night BUT please don’t try and convince me if I am wrong if you disagree, I don’t really care what you think. I make my decisions based on information from people and professional sources that “I” trust and not complete strangers whose experiences I know nothing about nor purportedly “expert” websites.

      I’ve found that those who are at the extremes of each end of the debate are usually quite emotive and not open to hearing the other side as they’ve already made their minds up and their main agenda is to convince you to pick their “team” rather than help you make an informed decision and usually stoop to name-calling and personal attacks.

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  9. Em

    Yes a waste of time, in one sunday newspaper (I forget which one) they have a problem then a column written in response by a doctor and a naturopath. Like, the advice given is of equal standing/influence. I always find that irritating. It’s also interesting to read the naturopath’s roundabout and vague commentary which rarely addresses the problem in contrast to the doctors analysis. I know which one I’d trust. Having said that, some complementary (as in complementary to medicine) therapies certainly have a place in treatments.

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  10. Sal

    I’ve wasted far less money with alternative practitioners than with GPs & pharmacies. I’ve been treated by a kinesiologist who is a medical doctor and former professor of anatomy. I take supplements developed by the professor who developed chemotherapy. These supplements were designed to undo damage to healthy cells after a course of chemo. You can’t just assume that traditional western medicine and new-age therapies are at war. A smart practitioner goes with what is right for the patient. The rest of it is just a turf war.

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    • lucinda

      I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. You have chosen a kinesiologist with a strong science/medical background, so therefore this practitioner is likely to only support supplements and procedures that he/she sees as evidence based and she understands the relationships between what she is practicing and traditional medicine. Most people practicing “alternative” therapies have no medical knowledge at all and therefore can dispense advice which may be harmful or negligent. That is the biggest concern.

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    • Quokka

      A turf war? – Are you actually saying that doctors and researchers know alternative ways to treat disease and prolong life but refuse to share them with thier patients – really – seriously??

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  11. Jenny

    Anyone with an autoimmune disease needs to read this book: The AutoImmune Epidemic by Donna Jackson Nakasawa, published in 2008 by Simon and Schuster.

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  12. Jenny

    If you suffer from, or know someone who does, an autoimmune disease, please read this book: The Autoimmune Epidemic by Donna Jackson Nakazawa published in 2008 by Simon & Schuster. Available in Australia at your local library.

    There is a whole world out there that already knows that allopathic medicine is failing. It is about time that Australia got educated on this issue. Start with this book. Then go here:

    http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/

    This sight has an enlightening essay on sources of information:

    http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2011/11/28/overinformed-refusal-has-to-be-stopped/

    Then check this out:

    http://canaryparty.org/

    You will be astounded at the information that is available if you take the time to search for it.

    Good luck!

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    • Quokka

      Please do not follow this advice. These references have no science to support the outrageous claims they make and many children will continue to die of vaccine preventable diseases if people begin to believe grieving parents and profiteers over science.

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  13. amyspeak

    In my experience health practitioners (note the generalised term here) all have their good days and their bad days. I’ve been to doctors who have wasted a lot of my time and money, just as I have been to chiropractors, naturopaths and osteopaths with similar results.

    And on the flipside, I’ve had doctors, acupuncturists, osteopaths and kinesiologists save me from a lot of pain and problems.

    I could write so much more about this, but instead I’m going to put the rest on my blog and leave it at this: with so much evidence for both sides, integrating mainstream and alternative healing practices sounds like an ideal way for us to get the best healthcare possible.

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  14. Sam

    Growing up I had warts all over my face when i was around 11 and I felt like a monster with people doing double takes and even just staring at a young girl who looked like a monster. Eventually my parents realised how depressed I was about it and went to the doctors and obviously since it was all located on the face and they didnt want to deal with it. I even had my local doctor refuse to help because he “didnt want a lawsuit when he ruined my face more” I went to a naturopath and after 7 weeks it went away. 2 years of feeling so ugly and horrible was solved in a mere 7 weeks. My point to that story is that they seem to be able to do a few things right so it cant be seen as an entire waste

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    • Jane DJ

      A cohort study (n = 1000) conducted in children found evidence that two-thirds of warts resolve spontaneously within 2 years.

      http://www.huidziekten.nl/richtlijnen/BADguidelineCutaneousWarts2001.pdf

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      • nourishedlife

        Jane DJ, you seem to be very negative on this forum. Please read the forum guidelines and respect other people’s feelings and comments before replying.

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        • Kris2040

          How is a statement of fact negative or positive, or disrespectful of what someone else has said?

          It’s a sentence that summarises what a study found, and a link to the study!

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          • nourishedlife

            Here is the BBC report on the exact same case. Hopefully that is more official for you. I had also added the CBS source in my below link. Really though, does the source matter when the facts are there in black & white and the court case findings are public information. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8234533.stm

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          • nourishedlife

            What specifically are you disputing? I can only assume you are not following this thread or reading the information in the links. I said research-based pharmaceutical company – Pfizer, were found guilty of making up false research studies on drug results in order to get them on the market. They went to court, they admitted they did it and they paid fines of millions of dollars. What “peer reviewed academic study” do you want on that? This is an event that took place in a legal court with a legal outcome that is released to the public. It isn’t a conspiracy theory or rumour. It happened and its been proven in a legal court. I gave you the details as reported by mainstream and non mainstream media at the time of the outcome. Just re read the thread and the links I sent if you are unclear on anything.

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            • Kris2040

              I am disputing the veracity and trustworthiness of your “references”. I don’t think I was unclear with that.

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          • nourishedlife

            The mainstream references are the US Supreme Court, the BBC UK, CBS US and hundreds of other news articles and Youtube clips reporting the court case and event as it took place across the internet. I’d like to know what other references would have satisfied you? I don’t recall “peer backed research studies” being conducted on a Judge’s ruling when the guilty party admits fault.

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        • Jane DJ

          One of the consequences of saying outrageously erroneous things and spouting misinformation is blunt criticism. Often interpreted as “you’re a negative big meanie” by those who spout said misinformation and have no evidence for it.

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          • Nourishedlife

            I’d be happy to back up any of my statements with evidence. I understand it is scary when people offer information and opinion that is different to how we have always believed, but that is the great thing about this forum, we can all learn from each other and even if you disagree, it opens up new possibilities and options for considerstion. Again, I ask you to be respectful with your words because you don’t know what you don’t know.

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          • Nourishedlife

            Love to! On what topic would you like?

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            • Kris2040

              How about anywhere someone’s disagreed with you and you’ve called them a big meanie? Just for starters.

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            • Jane DJ

              You said “the big medicine companies have been proven guilty in court and fined millions of dollars over the years for publishing thousands of forged clinical trial documents to gain approval to put new drugs on the market”

              I would love you to expand on your knowledge regarding the above statement.

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            • Jane DJ

              Aw, c’mon – Nourished life – I go to reply to all the other examples you posted here earlier today – now they’ve been deleted?

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          • nourishedlife

            In relation to the the big medicine companies being been proven guilty in court for fraud. This is very public information and there are hundreds of articles published on the court cases and outcome. Here are a few.

            1a. From the BBC UK “US drugmaker Pfizer has agreed to pay $2.3bn in the largest healthcare fraud settlement in history http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8234533.stm

            1. “Big Pharma researcher admits to faking dozens of research studies for Pfizer” http://www.naturalnews.com/028194_Scott_Reuben_research_fraud.html#ixzz1pEuQoAoM

            2. “Biggest drug research fraud case in FDA history” http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1370/is_n5_v23/ai_7701721/
            3.”Drug Company Pleads Guilty to Health Fraud” http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2010/mar2010_Drug-Company-Pleads-Guilty-to-Health-Fraud_01.htm
            4. “Pfizer charged with health care fraud” http://www.theday.com/article/20100115/NWS01/100119833/1047

            Warm regards, For any further information please visit my blog.

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            • Kris2040

              You lead with a reference to Natural news and expect to be taken seriously? Seriously?

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            • Jane DJ

              Oh, okay, you were editing, sorry. Was (still am) in the process of a fairly lengthy response and t’was gone!!

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            • Jane DJ

              The examples:
              1a, and 3, and 4 ) All are regarding one payout by one company, Pfizer for illegal promotion of 4 unapproved drugs 1) is prosecution of one person for fraudulent research associated with, among others, some of the drugs in the same Pfizer case.

              Uncovered, prosecuted, fined, jailed and roundly denounced by the scientific community, as are all such examples of inappropriate dealings by pharmaceutical companies.
              http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/03/the_most_massive_scientific_fraud_ever.php

              What about the fact that Mercola has been asked repeatedly by the FDA to Stop Illegal Claims w w w . quackwatch.com/11Ind/mercola.html
              He refuses to withdraw from sale products that don’t work. The pharmaceutical companies have to withdraw their dodgy products – why not Mercola? Why doesn’t that bug you ?

              (NB – the source you quote from – Life extension foundation – creates a magazine, that should be considered a marketing piece for sale of their SUPPLEMENTS for “life extension”!!? Incidentally LEF have been found by an independent testing laboratory to make erroneous claims about levels of active ingredients in their own products, and have been found to have unacceptable levels of carcinogenic hexavalent chromium in their chromium supplements!). .

              (NB:What becomes of alt-med practitioners who behave repugnantly? Remember Penny Dingle – The inquest also found the homeopath not to be a person of trust, but was unable to take further action. She is however being investigated by the Australian Homeopathy Association. Yeah, right. As if they would ever publish an adverse finding on one of their own.)

              Example 2) Um, OK, This is from 23 years ago! Again – this is an individual researcher However, the drug manufacturers deleted Fogari’s data from their marketing applications after they were notified of his disqualification. His research did not influence decisions to put any drugs on the market.

              The wording of your original post

              “What annoys me is the most is that the big medicine companies have been proven guilty in court and fined millions of dollars over the years for publishing thousands of forged clinical trial documents to gain approval to put new drugs on the market”

              would suggest fraud is rampant within the medical establishment. Your examples show 2 individuals (one case from 23 years ago) who have been convicted of fraudulent research, and one company payout for illegal promotion. Hardly rampant. And, your references come from alt-med websites that you track back to the media release. The trouble I have with that is that the altie website quotes the case, then the next 2/3rds of the article go on a diatribe about the ebil pharma, everything they do is bad, everything they say is bad, can’t believe them about anything, can’t trust them – trust us. Buy our stuff. You link to these sites via your blog and join them in the denouncing. Buy my stuff.

              I
              The scientific method (the way of science) has resulted in retraction of a bunch of badly done studies. These studies should never have been published, but the scientific community has admitted its mistakes and retracted the papers, fraudulent actions have been discovered, and its perpetrators taken to task.

              In fact, in all retracted research ( which is actually 0.035% of the hundreds of thousands of papers published every year) only 27% of those are attributed to fraud – less than 0.01%.

              That makes 99.97% of published peer reviewed research legitimate.

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          • nourishedlife

            I just edited it to include the BBC because they would be a news network that mainstream people would trust. Honestly, I only mentioned this information because i personally find it astonishing & relevant to this discussion and thought people would find it interesting. I am really not bothered if you believe or don’t believe the pharmaceutical industry is guilty of fraudulent actions or not, why would I? I really spend far too many hours of my personal time trying to make this world a better and safer place. I do hope you get a chance to read the above articles in detail, there are hundreds more that cover everything i mentioned so if there is anything else you need to clarify please go through the official news archives. Best of luck. NL

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            • Kris2040

              They *would*, but even the mighty Beeb have been caught out bodgying up stats. Do you have any academic studies that have been peer reviewed? Hint: Natural News doesn’t count. Neither does the BBC.

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        • Auth

          Great ep, Would have expected a ibgger longer fight from that. Just seemed a little quick for it to end in one ep. So would have loved more, But in all and all, That was a really really nice ep. In the end, After the song/credits. Its funny when he hands kon a tiny soul reaper badge. Quite funny. I wonder what the next arc will be.

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  15. 5yearsofUni

    Chiropractic (note: not ‘chiropractics’ – there is no ‘s’) is a 5 year university degree. In Australia, the first 3 years are a Bachelor of Science – where students learn anatomy, physiology, pathology, immunology etc. In the last 2 years, students undergo learning differential diagnosis, intensive physical exam and viva voce examination, which is closely monitored by the Chiropractic Board of Australia – whom are under the Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency.

    Students are taught to diagnose patients first to ensure that it is a musculoskeletal problem at present. If all signs lead to something otherwise, they are taught to refer the patient off to a GP or another specialised health professional. Let me reiterate, Chiropractors in Australia are taught to treat musculoskeletal problems. Not asthma, not thyroid problems and definitely not ADHD. When they leave their university of choice and choose to pursue in other schools of thought, such as the belief that they can aid these visceral conditions, it is to their own discretion. Each to their own.

    These 5 years of university education should not be deviated. I commend those that stick to their education. It’s a hard road to follow when the left field minority are the ones doing the talking and have the medias attention.

    Not every chiropractor is the same. They don’t all treat the same. It’s exactly like going to a GP. If you aren’t happy, go get a second opinion.

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    • happymummy

      *stands and applauds*

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  16. OliveBlanche

    Having had migraines my whole life I’ve been dragged into so many Drs offices and alternative medicine. Drs have never been able to do anything and state as much. But those in alternative medicine…..claim they will be able to cure me. So after many many years of going to see people in alternative medicine I learnt pretty quickly that there are a lot of nut jobs out there that prey on desperate people. Sure some are lovely and truly believe in what they do. It has just never worked for me. The thing is tho if you are sick and not trying everything out there then people judge you as lazy or not even trying to get better. I’ve lost friends over this because I believe in science and medicine and don’t want to go see a natropath or some herbal dr, I’m very polite when I say I don’t want to go down that road because vie tried most of it before and I’d rather stick to the treatment plan I have with my Dr. But all they see is a rejection of their belief that I could be cured instantly and get pretty angry. My parents always thought I was way too sensitive with ppl constantly bombarding me with alternative medicine treatments and me being annoyed ( behind closed doors of course) with people not listening to me when I say no. Until Mum was diagnosed with terminal pancreatic cancer. Well everything changed then…people kept emailing my dad all these treatment ideas which he would check out then dismiss cos they had no evidence at all and wouldn’t work in this case. Mum had a whipple but they couldn’t get the tumor because it was wrapped around a vein. So the surgeon bypassed the common bile duct so she wouldn’t be poisoned, anyway this means part of her intenstines are gone so she can’t get nutrients out of food and can’t process any kind of fat. So she is severly underweight and will probably die from that. Trying to get people to understand that is impossible tho. And they get huffy if you try. Sigh……it’s a constant battle for me. I’m the one with a dying mother and I’m the one who is sick myself ( liver is bad atm) yet they think they have the right to get angry with me because “I’m not making enough of an effort”. As you can see this is a sore spot for me!! Sorry for the long rant…it was very cathartic tho!!

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  17. science isn't everything

    Your body is an amazing thing. Alternative medicine practitioners believe it has the capacity to improve itself when shown how. I work for a natural health practice and I don’t particularly care whether the health improvements I’ve witnessed on a daily basis for the last five years can be scientifically proven in a blind study or whatever. It works.

    The practitioners I work for have integrity in spades and are working along side the powers that be to have Australia focus on an Integrative Medicine approach to healthcare. They don’t believe that they run a one-stop-shop. Unfortunately, from all the dismissive comments on this site, it appears we have a long way to go before the negative mentality is changed.

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    • Twinarp

      “Alt-Med practitioners believe it has the capacity to improve itself when shown how” WOW! Alt-Med is all of the wonderful. The practitioners (notice, not doctors) think they can SHOW a body how to heal itself. Actual Doctors know the difference between WHEN the body can heal itself and when you’ll need medication, exercise, a change in diet, vitamin supplements or anything that works in the circumstances. The ones you are describing have an over-inflated opinion of themselves. “I can show the body how to heal itself.” The body needs to not herp the derp. “I will show it how.” Good grief.
      I hope no-one visits wherever it is you work if they are actually ill. Appendicitis anyone? Measles? Asthma? And yes, actual Doctors do recommend exercise, a change in diet or vitamin supplements, not just “integrative” ones. Grow up, science got you to where you are, dismiss it at your and your children’s peril.

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      • science isn't everything

        Thank you for substantiating my last sentence.

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        • Quokka

          I have no problem with adults wasting thier money on placebos – and that is all they are. As a psychologist I ethically cannot recommend or use a treatment that I know is only placebo – the client cannot make an imformed choice if I do. that is the difference in my mind – do all the people you work with clearly explain that there is no research evidence to support thier treatments and that they may be causing irrecprible harm by delaying evidence based treatments. I don’t see how you can say they have integrity if they don’t.

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  18. Dave The Happy Singer

    Professor Kerryn Phelps AM is no quack

    O RLY?

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    • Jane DJ

      Indeed. The woo is strong in this one….

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  19. JosieY

    When we saw a chiro for my sons colic we spent $70 each for 4 15 minute sessions. It did not work, much to the chiro’s surprise! She also told me she could cure my daughter’s asthma and my thyroid condition. I really wish I hadn’t wasted my money.

    Before this I had seen a homeopath to help me regain normal bowel function after major colorectal surgery. Again, several hundred dollars later I stopped going. Again, she was very surprised that it didn’t work.

    So what did help these issues? Time. My son grew out of it, and my body (eventually) healed itself. If we had continued going, no doubt we would have credited the treatment. Interesting, hey?

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  20. kenwood

    Conspiracy theorists like to claim that amazing alternative medicine “cures” are being suppressed or covered up somehow, but in actual fact the opposite is true: a huge amount of money and resources have already been spent on investigating whether alternative medicine works effectively – and continues to be spent today.

    Alternative medicine pushers prefer to ignore that fact because they don’t like the results that have emerged from rigorous scientific investigation….

    Here’s a summary of the results from the biggest single alt med research program in the world: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31190909/ns/health-alternative_medicine/t/billion-spent-no-alternative-cures-found/

    Sorry alt med fans; for the most part this stuff just doesn’t work. If it produces a placebo effect that you’re happy with then great, by all means keep using it. However don’t ask for it to be taxpayer funded and don’t ask for it to be taught in universities – it’s just a hobby that you’re indulging in, nothing more.

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    • kenwood

      And here’s an outline of the biggest UK research effort: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edzard_Ernst

      Pretty much the same results. Oh dear!

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      • Pete

        One thing that you are not mentioning kenwood is all the criticism that
        Ernst has received for his misuse of science in his evaluations. He uses “scientism” (the trappings of science without the ethical rigour) to prove the point he wants to prove. Seems like you are apt to do the same by merely looking to his paper and not the criticism.

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        • Quokka

          Then use the Cochrane results as an alternative – they same the same thing.

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      • Villy

        Nice ep.! However, not much happened to cmonemt on. Still hoping for when the fakes and originals will SLUG IT OUT! And, to be sincere, i really wish Inaba had gotten a hold of Nozomi. I would very much looooooove to see his FULL POWER. I wonder if he has a BANKAI? I mean, if he had a Bankai and his Shinkai was space-time manipulation/distortion, then i am very much excited at what his Bankai could be. Perhaps, that was why he was too fast for Ishida. I’m guessing, and, i could be wrong, that he must’ve created a worm hole and moved right through, covering a distance of minutes in barely a second!I really wonder how he was able to hide/shield his Reiatsu, especially since, he’s just a SEVENTH SEAT?Well, i guess more will be explained in next week’s ep.TILL THEN, STAY SAFE EVERYONE !

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  21. Jayne

    This recently came up for me. I went to a doctor about a recurring issue I have been having. She told me that the condition is exascerbated by fermentation in the digestive system – i.e. stop drinking alcohol and eating foods with loads of refined sugar.

    She also said that she tells many of her patients the same thing but that they just aren’t ready to make such drastic lifestyle changes, so ignore her advice and keep on consuming the offending products.

    She said then….many months or years later…when they just can’t take it any longer they go see a naturopath who tells them to stop drinking alcohol and eating sugar. They do, and the condition clears up, then they say the doctor never helped, but the naturopath did! haha!

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  22. Luke

    “But for chronic pain and long term diseases with long term affects, you’d be surprised how effective alternative methods can be at treating these,” she says.”

    “You’d be surprised how effective” contains zero actual evidence or science.

    “Prof. Phelps rattles off a list of the world’s most prestigious universities including Harvard, Yale and Stanford who teach integrative medicine.”

    This is a logical fallacy – an appeal to authority – which once again is no substitute for actually providing evidence that there is something wrong (or suboptimal) with our science-based, evidence-based healthcare system.

    “She wrote the first textbook on integrative health (General Practice) and that, together with another book, contains some 5000 references to scientific studies, she says.”

    This is something of a Gish Gallop style fallacy, saying that there are thousands of scientific studies but not actually citing any of them. Actually post a specific reference, or a few of them perhaps, to peer-reviewed scientific literature reviews or publications.

    “For her part, Prof. Phelps says she shares many of the basic concerns for research and evidence in the field that the Friends of Science in Medicine do, but says they’re making more enemies than friends in medicine.”

    I’d say they appear to be making lots of friends in medicine – and perhaps enemies in pseudomedicine, and the billion-dollar “Big Quacka” snake oil industry which sells products with some claimed therapeutic benefit without any scientific, evidence based demonstration of efficacy and/or safety.

    “What should unite us all is the desire to do what is safest and most effective for our patients, which includes respecting their choices and preferences for safe and effective complementary therapies,” she says.

    All therapies should be safe and effective. Things that are claimed to be therapies which are not scientifically demonstrated to be safe and effective should not be allowed to be marketed as therapies.

    So, how do we find out whether a claimed therapy is actually safe and effective or not? Using the method of science. It’s just that simple.

    Any therapy which is scientifically demonstrable to be safe and effective has absolutely no reason to be called an “alternative” therapy or a “complementary” therapy – it’s just a therapy.

    Any therapy is equally good, based on this sensible and simple criteria – it doesn’t matter whether it’s an unprocessed natural plant or a synthetic organic compound – and anything that cannot satisfy this simple and sensible criteria should not be allowed to be called a therapy.

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  23. Rohan G

    “Alternative medicine” is generally backward, superstitious and reliant on the placebo effect. The claim by Tim Minchin that the name for alternative medicine that actually works is “medicine” is largely correct. We could do away with alternative medicine overnight if it were not for the complications of:
    i) The placebo effect, which is very powerful, tricky to measure, and still not so well understood. The placebo effect operates with conventional medicine too. Therapy comes not just from efficacious product but also ritual. Alternative medicines excel at ritual.
    ii) Money corrupts the scientific process in conventional medicine. People know this, and it undermines its credibility. It distresses me that pharaceutical companies rarely share their best research – because they are in economic competition. We’ve all heard stories of bodged clinical trials. However followers of alternative medicine are blind its money corruption; too much of it is the quack medicine of selling false hope to desperate people.
    iii) Democracy. It would be too illiberal to ban alternative medicine.
    iv) Cancer. Treatments are getting better all the time but still very slowely. A reliable cure for cancer would enhance the esteem of scientific medicine tremendously. Until then confidence in science is harmed by the disparity between our ability to image far-distant galaxies in high definition and our inablitity to cure Aunt Gina’s stomach cancer.

    So alternative medicine is here to stay for the time being. But FSM is calling for universities not to teach non-scientific ideas in science / medicine courses not for the banning of alternative medicine. Why is this a controvesy? In Australia, thankfully, we don’t have Creation taught in our high school classes. FSM is simply calling for the equivalent in universities. Homeoapthy and Reflexology and other forms of superstition have NO place in a science or medicine faculity of a university.

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    • David

      Comparing the creation theory to alternative medicine is like me saying that the treatment of alternative medicine practitioners throughout this debate is reminiscent of auschwitz. Also known as being ridiculous.

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  24. Sharon

    Im a pharmacist and for the most part i need a lot of evidence behind something to recommend it. Having said that I very much agree with prof phelps. If you suffer a chronic condition and are being treated by a doctor, I am quite happy for you to use a herbal medicine to complement your therapy (not replace, complement). There are a few herbal products I have had amazing feedback from customers with.

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    • what the?

      so I suppose you rigourously examined viox before dispensing it to thousands of unsuspecting people?, only for this medication to be recalled months later for causing an increased risk of heart attack and stroke.

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      • ?

        …and Lipitor, and Champix and Celebrex…shall I go on?

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        • Quokka

          You are making the case for Medicine – they were all recalled when evidence collected on their use had risks that outwayed the benfits. Every supplement, homeopathic remedy etc. should be held to this standard but currently aren’t

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          • Jane DJ

            Quokka, clearly they think a system which says “whoa, we thought this treatment was safe and effective but now we’ve got evidence that it’s not; we’d better stop using it” is inferior to the system that says “we think this treatment is safe and effective, and if we receive any evidence to the contrary, well, clearly that’s just people not having sufficiently open minds, or the evidence is all cooked up by Big Pharma — there’s all sorts of possibilities – but the possibility that our treatment isn’t actually helpful will be ignored”

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      • Kate

        Yes, and I supposed the latest medical ‘wonder drug’ for arthritis, based on Curcuma longa (tumeric, prescribed commonly by naturopaths for inflammation and rheumatic conditions) is a mistake by the medical field. Must be a load of garbage if its qualities were discovered long ago by traditional communities without a scientific trial. And the same is clearly true for that minor drug aspirin .. oh, and for the heart med digoxin from the digitalis spp .. all of which were very successfully used well before science, ah, ‘discovered’ them. Do people not understand so much wisdom from nature has been passed down long before we could ‘scientifically’ prove it? Our medical community is only catching up now, in a funny fashion … isolating active constituents instead of using the whole plant, which clearly ups the myriad of side effects so often not experienced when using whole herb liquid extracts. The arguments just make no sense!?

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        • ?

          My point exactly. Traditional Chinese medicine has been around for centuries and used by billions of people. Should they really give a rats whether western medicine gives them the thumbs up or not?

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          • Quokka

            Human sacrifice has been around for thousands of years with about the same amount of evidence that it made the sun come up the next day.

            Maybe TCM was used because there wasn’t a better alternative (maybe that’s why so many died so young) but now there is a better alternative – science based medicine.

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          • Jane DJ

            Hear, hear, bring back bloodletting and purging with toxic metals….

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        • Jane DJ

          “isolating active constituents instead of using the whole plant, which clearly ups the myriad of side effects so often not experienced when using whole herb liquid extracts”

          Any scientist will agree that we have some marvellous medicines derived from ancient remedies – but your argument that somehow the processing techniques used to isolate the active ingredients is detrimental makes no sense.

          Can you explain how whole herb liquid extracts are made? No processing at all? Is the whole plant blended and bottled? Or does the techniqe just involve squeezing the herb really really hard to get the drops out? Because that is processing.

          Here’s a great example where isolating the active ingredient of an ancient remedy is preferable.

          A drug derived from leeches, hirudin, is used semi-regularly in hematology. It’s quite useful in cases of heparin induced thrombocytopenia among other things.

          I suppose one might ask a naturopath to explain why one might use hirudin (or lepirudin) rather than leeches for anti-coagulation. No doubt they would mention big pharma, leading to the following follow-up questions:

          1. Lepirudin is given in very tightly controlled, standardized doses for a particular goal level of anti-coagulation which has the best chance of preventing clot without causing bleeding. How do you standardize a leech (or leech extract)?

          2. Lepirudin is produced recombinantly in yeast. No leeches need be harmed or exploited to produce it. How is it superior to use a method that depends on the unnecessary exploitation and/or death of an animal?

          3. In the event of a bad reaction, side effect, or overdose, an IV can be stopped immediately. A hungry leech will tend to be difficult to remove. Which is safer for the patient?

          4. (Or maybe 3a). Which would the average patient rather have close to him or her: an IV needle or a hungry leech? (Admittedly, the proper answer to this is probably “neither one”.)

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  25. anon

    Chiropractors are highly trained health professionals who study at uni for 5 years to obtain their degree. This so-called rivalry between them and medicos is simply a turf war.
    Chiropractic is subject to a ridiculous amount of suspicion and scrutiny, when in actual fact the rate of serious injury to patients is miniscule compared to the millions of people injured and killed in hospitals anually. It is ludicrous thar no-one bats an eyelid when so many untested drugs are rushed onto the market that have devastating consequences for people and then get mysteriously recalled .. thalidomide, viox, champix, no-doz etc.. to name but a few.

    I have had a lot of success personally with seeing my chiro over the years, she is fantastic!
    I don’t “believe” chiropractic works( the word “belief” implies some kind of religious adoration). I KNOW it does!! she has helped me over the years with knee problems after a skiing accident and crippling migraines that were previously only dealt with with medication that would knock me out for days. I did not want to continue with this “bandaid” solution and sought help from a chiro several years ago and have not had an attack since. I see her a couple of times a year and could not be happier. I don’t need that medication anymore and I guess my local pharmacist is annoyed that the chiro down the road is taking business away!

    In a nutshell:

    McDonalds will not tell you to eat at KFC.

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    • Kat

      There have been cases of people left with permanent paralysis, who have had strokes and even died at the hands of chiropractors.

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      • ?

        and medical doctors too, except in medicine this occurs in huge numbers compared to chiropractic where these incidents are extremely rare.

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        • Kris2040

          Wouldn’t it happen in higher numbers because more people get treated by conventional medicine? If everyone went to chiros, their numbers would go up too.

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          • ?

            well, according to one source, around 250, 000 australians see a chiro each week and in America (where there is a chiro on virtually every corner) the numbers are ten fold.

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            • Kris2040

              But so is their population. What’s your point?

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            • ?

              that the incidence of stroke or other type of injury from a chiropractic adjustment is extremely rare as compared with the multitude of side effects arising from medical treatment.
              I would rather a chiro help me with my sore neck than punch holes in my stomach with anti-inflammatories.

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  26. georgiepie

    I’m with Phelps. It’s complementary. I had acupuncture as a last resort to help with extremely painful periods, and it helped so much! I went from fainting and bedridden to just popping a Ponstan!
    I’m all for science/modern medicine – I love it! (I’d be dead if I wasn’t, can’t cure type 1 diabetes by eating cinnamon/bending my spine hahaha) But alternative ‘medicine’ has it’s place. don’t know what I’d do without my essential oils on a tissue next to my pillow at night, they get me to sleep quick smart! Mum is really into essential oils, she had calming blends that worked a treat during exams

    It’s when people tell me they can cure my auto immune disease through herbs etc. that I get angry and want to hit somebody. Science is there for a reason. Some alternative medicine is bulls***, some of it is legit and has its place!

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    • Jayne

      Hey georgiepie, can I ask what oils you use to help with sleep? I have been finding it a little difficult to get to sleep recently due to being quite busy at work and not being able to ‘shut off’ my brain when I go to bed. Thanks!

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      • Rabbitsal

        Hi Jayne, I keep a bottle of lavender oil beside my bed & if I can’t sleep I put a few drops on my pillow & I’m out in 5 mins. I’d buy decent quality stuff from a healthfood store, not the supermarket. I’ve also found a few drops of tea tree oil on the bottom of my shower in the morning peps me up more than a couple of coffees.

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      • georgiepie

        sorry for the late reply jane! yep lavender and a bit of chamomile. it’s got to be good quality stuff, the crap stuff just smells like air freshener…

        unrelated, ‘sleep tight’ tea by T2 is also fantastic for getting you off to sleep :) with that and the oils I’m out like a light!

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    • the Original Camille

      oh yes, i was blamed for my alopecia by a d*head burning incense, because I had been foolish enough to eat bananas and avocados.

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    • KL

      I wouldn’t have my son today without complimentary medicine. After miscarriages galore I saw a naturopath who used medical pathways such as dozens of blood tests, and then herbs and so many vitamins I rattled. In 3 months my ovulation shrank to spot on day 14 and in six, I fell pregnant and kept the pregnancy. Now have a super healthy child that she’d promised she’d help me make.

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  27. Alyssa

    As a teenager who’s suffered for 3 years with chronic pain, I say do whatever helps. I have tried so many different types of treatment, many of which being ‘alternative’. I have generally found that the alternative treatments such as acupuncture, consuming various vitamins and massage, have increased my symptoms and been a waste of time and money.

    HOWEVER, the conditions I suffer from are very individual to each person with the condition. What doesn’t work for me has worked wonders for friends with the same illnesses.

    So what if it’s placebo? Reducing the amount of suffering – wether it be truly physical, or just thought to be physical by the suffer – is worth it.

    I have lived 3 years with constant crippling pain which has left me in a wheelchair. Do whatever the Hell it is that will make you feel better. For me – that happens to be boring old ‘normal’ medicine. My body just doesn’t respond to the natural stuff, I need something stronger.

    I get annoyed when people judge me for choosing to take pills for my pain.
    It happens a lot, they say ‘oh you’re only 15 you shouldn’t be having any pills.’
    If you have not lived in my body, you do not have the right to say what I should/shouldn’t do to ease my suffering.

    I support naturual medicine, if it works that’s great. But there’s nothing wrong with resorting to modern medicine.

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  28. Lana

    Just finished reading Trick or Treatment by Professor Edzard Ernst, the world’s first professor of complementary medicine and scientist Simon Singh. In the book they examine all the major trials conducted into Acupuncture, Homeopathy, Aromatherapy, Reflexology, Chiropractic and Herbal medicines and more or less debunk (with science and trials) every single one of them. It is fascinating (and frightening) reading

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    • Lizi

      Was this the one Simon Singh got sued for by the British Chiropractic Association?

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      • Lana

        Yes, but the BCA withdrew their libel action. And he didn’t write it alone – he wrote it with a professor of complementary medicine. I don’t deny he has some strong beliefs but to my mind they are very well researched and thought out beliefs. Based in fact and science

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        • Mel

          Oh Lana you believe every book you read!

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        • Quokka

          The British Chiro Association didn’t withdraw – they lost the case and had to pay costs. Big difference.

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  29. nourishedlife

    What annoys me is the most is that the big medicine companies have been proven guilty in court and fined millions of dollars over the years for publishing thousands of forged clinical trial documents to gain approval to put new drugs on the market. Not to cure people but to make money !!

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    • Twinarp

      Oh, Big Pharma is bad, therefor Alt-med works! Sorry, not a reason to teach nonsense that doesn’t work as science.

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      • nourishedlife

        That’s my point, it ISN’T science, the clinical scientific studies & their results are forged to get the drugs on the market to make money. I did not make a comment on alt-medicine.

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        • Jane DJ

          Clearly you have special knowledge that the rest of us don’t. Don’t let your ego-gratification that comes from being in possession of this heretofore secret information get in the way of sharing your evidence immediately with the rest of us poor deluded souls.

          (Otherwise I’ll take your comment purely as breathtaking ill-informed arrogance borne of conspiracy theories, k?)

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          • Nourishedlife

            Yep! Scary stuff that you don’t see in mainstream news that’s factual! Just Google it and the case details will come up. You can follow my blog if you like, I am not holding any secrets, in fact quite the opposite …

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            • Jane DJ

              Oh, trust me, I have seen your blog.

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            • Quokka

              Terrific – more graduates from the University of Google

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    • kateinlondon

      and there is NO money in alt-medicine, so that’s a relief.

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      • Quokka

        My friend the natropath told me to stop taking my anti-seizure meds and start taking supplements instead ( ones she could recommend through the company she wroked for). I agreed to if she would agree to let me drive her kids around all day when I was likely to have a complex tonic clonic seizure behind the wheel – she changed her mind.

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        • Nourishedlife

          I can’t believe I try to help and inform people with knowledge, at no benefit to myself and I am responded to with such malace. I thought this was a friendly forum???

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  30. Lil

    Because no drug company stands to make money from alternative medicine they are not willing to Invest in clinical trials to prove it’s efficacy.

    I have chronic pain and a compromised immune system. My Chinese doctor has provided great relief for both conditions. Even my infectious diseases specialist was stunned and impressed by the outcomes. I successfully combine my treatments with traditional scientific therapies and herbs and acupuncture.

    I urge you all to remain open minded and to try a series of treatment options before you bag alternative medicines

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    • Twinarp

      Why do you expect drug companies to test something they dont sell? No one expects TCM or Homeopaths or Naturpaths to test any drugs, just the ones THEY claim have wondrous effects that THEY claim. It is not an argument that makes any sense. I’m glad they had a beneficial effect in your opinion, but it is just an opinion. Drugs require evidence which is suplied by double blind randomly controlled trials. When CAM is tested this way, it ALWAYS fails. Besides, this is about teaching nonsense as Science and awarding degrees in Tooth Fairy “Science” as actual science.

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      • Todd

        first of all yammi was not the most powerfull easdpa you dum shit, srry had to get that outta the way, anyways it was pretty funny when they were all in his room aha, so why doesnt urahara or ichigos dad ever help out in the other situautions though? i dont get it lol, an was really hopin kon would just die already its just so dam annoying

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      • Dtb

        Another thing I’ve really coeintd is always that for many people, below-average credit is the results of circumstances past their control. One example is they may be really saddled with an illness so they really have more bills going to collections. Maybe it’s due to a job loss or perhaps the inability to work. Sometimes divorce can really send the budget in a downward direction. Thanks for sharing your notions on this weblog.

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    • shen

      it really annoys me that modern medicine that has only been around a nano second compared to TCM is now giving the OK for accupuncture and more and more GPs are starting to perform it. The arrogance.

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  31. Amandarose

    I don’t think all alternative therapies fall in the quack basket. I don’t think they have a problem with evidence based alternative therapies.

    But those ones listed really are non scientific and have no place at uni. No different to offering degrees in witch craft and magic.

    Everyone know many herbal therapies are proven effective. But iridology? Bonkers. Homeopathy proven to be nonsense. very expensive placebos often marketed by people who know better- Pharmacists.

    sure get your fish oil and magnesium but many other products are an insult to medical professionals.

    I believe people turn to alternative therapy for hope when conventional medicine fails them. the trouble is there is not always an answer. sometimes it is hard to find a source of illness and alternative therapists can offer false hope and delay a real diagnosis.

    But they also offer hope which is a great placebo and it feels could to do something even if you really know it is rubbish so I guess it cheers you up a bit.

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    • Vera

      You clearly haven’t ever tried homeopathy. A baby doesn’t respond to a ‘placebo’. When my son was teething none of the conventional medicines worked. It didn’t matter what I gave him (Panedol included) he was whingy in the day and up half the night crying. Then I found out about Chamomila (a homeopathic often used to treat teething) and as soon as he started taking it he became peaceful and calm during the day and slept through the night. That homeopathic remedy saved my sanity. There is nothing ‘rubbish’ about homeopathy. You are speaking from ignorance.

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      • Lana

        I’ve tried homeopathy, I have also read a lot about it. For me – and from the research I read, I politely disagree. Scientific blind studies have shown that there is aboslutely no evidence that homeopathic remedies work and the dilutions involved make it almost impossible to believe. For me it didn’t work – but maybe that’s because I really don’t believe

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        • Cordeline

          What about physical proof that shows something has worked for someone though? It might be considered ‘science’, but it’s still proof of some sort. Like my baby daughter who got amazing results from a homeopath treating her (really bad) eczema. That was most definitely not a placebo effect.

          Just for the record, I think people who ‘homeopathically immunise’ their kids are bonkers. Immunisation is something a lot more serious.

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          • Amandarose

            Just because your baby stopped crying doesn’t mean it worked. The baby may have stopped anyway. This does to constitute evidence. homeopathy has been proven many times over to be a false science and really does not work.

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            • Cordeline

              I don’t think you read my comment at all. It had nothing to do with my baby crying. It had to do with her body being covered in eczema. No amount of money spent at doctors and on medicated creams helped (in fact made it worse), but in this instance, homeopathy worked. It was evident in the fact that her skin cleared up. A baby (nor an adult) could ‘fake’ eczema clearing up.

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          • Kris2040

            What was the homeopathic remedy for eczema?

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      • Twinarp

        No one with a headache has to believe in paracetamol, aspirin, OxyContin, ibuprofen or any other actual analgesic. They work on the body whether you believe in them, or not. If Homeopathy worked there would be Homeopathic contraception, anasthetics and blood clotting or thinning agents, also chemistry, physics and many other forms of known working science wouldn’t.

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  32. Elizabeth

    Tim Minchin puts it so excellently here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U

    ““By definition”, I begin
    “Alternative Medicine”, I continue
    “Has either not been proved to work,
    Or been proved not to work.
    You know what they call “alternative medicine”
    That’s been proved to work?
    Medicine.”

    It is beyond me why the “money hungry” medical and pharmaceutical companies would not be making money out of alternative medicine if it does work.

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    • Beccy

      They can’t patent a herb, can they? God forbid we can grow cures rather than having to purchase them.

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  33. Guest

    I have bipolar disorder and have seen the danger of ‘alternative’ medicine. The best and accepted approach to treatment is medication + lifestyle management (exercise, food, sleep, stress management etc). But there are many quacks out there who insist some herbs and vitamins can do the trick alone. Sadly many people with various serious mental illnesses fall for it.

    The ‘complementary’ word is key. I know I won’t stay well without the lifestyle changes and some natural therapies but with serious mental health the importance of medication cannot be underestimated, and sadly many alternative medicine quacks seek to sway vulnerable people from traditional treatment. The more the Friends of Science can get the message across the better.

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  34. Anonymous

    I thought alternative medicine was namby pamby… Until my GP thought it appropriate to write me a script for chronic back pain… and that’s it. No other management techniques were touched on.

    My “alternate” solution, however, has resulted in a move from daily life limiting back pain to mild and rare issues. Identifying the causes and weaknesses with professionals who gave me their TIME to look beyond the back pain complaint to investigate *why* and *how* to correct it is when I finally got somewhere.

    I’ll be keeping a blend of western and alternate medicine for my health care from here on in! :)

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    • katie

      I so totally agree! After years of treatment for my degenerative back condition I eventually found more relief in alternate treatments than anything in mainstream medicine, despite being a big skeptic.On reflection, I think one of the most therapeutic factors offered by these alternative and complementary practitioners was the time they took to actually listen, acknowledge my discomfort, talk and investigate the problem in some depth.

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      • Kris2040

        Ben Goldacre mentions that as a huge help in Bad Science, actually, Katie. Part of the placebo effect, I think.

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        • Georgia

          I’m not sure if it could all be put down to placebo effect…
          I suffered from severe stomach pain (exacerbated by stress) and chronic headache, my GP looked for a problem, couldn’t find anything and prescribed an antacid. None of this helped me at all.

          After 6 months of seeing an acupuncturist my symptoms lessened dramatically and was feeling physically and emotionally better.

          Balancing Chinese medicine with modern medicine has worked well for me so I’ll continue with it, but it doesn’t work for everyone.

          Like the article said, accupunture can work well for some things but not for others, and it’s the same with modern medicine. I find it difficult to discredit or call it a placebo effect when something like Chinese medicine that has been around much longer than modern medicine just because it doesn’t work for everyone.

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          • Kris2040

            Placebo isn’t discrediting – it’s acknowledging that the mind has a huge role to play. I highly recommend Bad Science – it’s a great read.

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  35. Beccy

    There will always be a difference in opinion between Allopathic medicine and Natural medicine, because they are different paradigms with different philosophies, different concepts of health, and different methods of healing. What is unnecessary, unacceptable, and purely based on an elitist, arrogant viewpoint is people actually wanting to make a war. Why are these ‘Friends of Science’ morons spending so much time discrediting us, when if we worked together we’d probably find the research based merit that the natural medicine industry so desperately needs, and they so desperately demand? What a waste of everyone’s time and energy.

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    • elli

      Even the AMA has distanced itself from FOS’s views.

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      • Melissa Dorey

        Dr Steve Hambleton has removed his name from the FSM list because he was being seen as the AMA and not as an individual
        (From AusDoc)
        “But I am unable to commit the names of 26,000 doctors I represent to the views of the FSM in its entirety, especially when its views are unspecified. I can only do that on a case-by-case basis.”
        He still remains a supporter on a personal basis.

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  36. Twinarp

    I see lots of “It worked for me” or Aunty Jess or other such irrelevant guff.
    It’s about calling NONSENSE science and teaching it in Univerisities. Teach it if you want, but call it what it actually is, ARTS, not SCIENCE.

    No, don’t teach stuff in Universities if it’s as believable as Santa.

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    • Mama carol

      Why is it irrelevant if it’s worked for people?

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      • trixie melodian

        Because the plural of anecdote is not data.

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        • Twinarp

          Thanks. Mama Carol, “It worked for me” is not evidence. it is an example, one successful data point in a series of abject failures. In double blind randomized control tests (the gold standard of tests) Homeopathy has never been shown to work better than a sugar pill.. Oh, Homeopathy is Sugar pills.

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          • Quokka

            Also because people delay seeing actual doctors and this can mean that what was once possible to treat is no longer treatable – remember Penelope Dingle?

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  37. deborah

    I don’t really mind how people want to use their own money in pursuit of relief from their medical conditions. Healing can come in many forms and there are no doubt tremendous psychological benefits (that manifest as physical benefits) that stem from feeling like you are doing ‘something’ about your condition. I popped plenty of vitamin B and ginger tablets while suffering from horrendous morning sickness, for example.

    However….

    As a taxpayer and a university graduate and a university administrator I DO have a problem with publicly-funded universities offering alternative therapy courses unless they have the scientific rigour to back up their claims. I have worked with scientists, I know the work they put in to getting grants to enable their work to continue, I know the hours they put in in the pursuit of evidence. In short, I agree with the FSM quoted above. I don’t see their editorial as ‘stinging’ or in any way extreme, I see them as defending the pursuit of academic excellence at Australian public universities.

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  38. oopsyboops

    As an allied health professional, I don’t see it as my place to tell people what treatments they seek. However, it is my place to ensure that you are informed, and educated about your condition, and what are the most effective ways of managing that.

    I also strongly believe that endlessly seeking treatment (week after week after week) is not an effective way of managing a condition and that it can do more harm (psychologically) than good. So yes, I don’t agree with people seeking chiropractic care every week for the rest of their life. This is exploitative. Especially when many don’t truly address the physical cause of an injury. Most people need to take an active approach to neck and back pain which includes improving core strength, stretches, and ensuring posture at work is correct. I don’t believe in seeing a naturopath to take hundreds of dollars of herbs every week, when a dietary change should be of benefit. I do however believe that the placebo effect is very powerful, and can’t be discredited.

    A good therapist should be able to work with you to identify the cause of a problem, and work out a plan of treatment, within a specfiic time frame. If they are not doing this, then you need to ask yourself if they have your best interests at heart.

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    • Mooner

      Exactly! A member of my family has been visiting a Chiropractor once a week for as long as I can remember!!! We’re talking years. Extortion! She has never been clear about exactly what the ailment is that the Chiropractor is trying to cure and where they are at in the treatment process and I have stopped asking ‘how she is’ when she mentions she’s been at “Chiro” because it just feels embarrassing now. I believe it is completely irresponsible that any health professional see a person for this long without any suggestion of discharge as far as I can tell.

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      • Mel

        That member of your family is a bit stupid. If they don’t know why they are seeing a chiro, then that’s an issue. Who keeps going to a dr without an idea why?!

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        • oopsyboops

          Sadly Mel I have heard of countless people continually going to a chiro week after week after week. Some chiro’s will also take x-rays to “diagnose” a condition which I believe is harmful and unnecessary expsoure to radiation.

          A phyiotherapist is trained to diagnose ailments, and treat them with massage, maniupulations, stretches, and an active treatment approach. (as opposed to chiro which is a passive approach). I would always recommend a patient see a physiotherapist as a first point of contact. The research has shown that the way to manage neck and back pain is through gentle exercise, NSAID’s, heat/cold therapy and core strengthening exercises. Subluxation and bed rest have been proven not to be effective for long term management.

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          • anon

            oh really? you diagnose? I’ve only come across physios who just follow the referring dr’s instructions and do little more than a massage therapist. My chiro prescribes exercises for me, and I only need to see her 3-4 times per year and get great results.

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            • oopsyboops

              Me personally? No I’m an occupational therapist, we don’t diagnose (although I’m pretty good at picking a supraspinatus injury). I’m not sure why you find that unusual that a physio can diagnose musculoskeletal conditions when chiros’ purport to do the same. Most of the physios I’ve worked with can do that (but granted, it may be a specialty).

              Disclaimer: I have worked as an injury management advisor for a large company so I am aware of different treatment approaches for many many different injuries and conditions.

              I have seen physios who overservice, and chiro’s who do the same. I have seen people swear by alternative medicine. As long as the person is not being harmed (psychologically, financially, physically) then I have supported thier choice for treatment. However I ALWAYS ensure that they understand their condition, and provided advice on what is the best way to manage that.

              I am glad chiro has worked for you. I would encourage you to understand what they are doing as well as what your condition is so you can continue to manage it effectively.

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            • anon

              gee oopsyboopsy, thanks for your concern. I do have a great understanding of what my chiro is treating me for and the expected outcomes. Chiros diagnose because they are trained to do so. Physios are taught to follow medicos orders and therefore have a different treatment philosophy. I also note that more and more “manipulative” physios are emerging. Is it because they’ve come to the realisation that adjustments work or is it simply a grab for bucks?

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          • Singleinoz

            Funny I started going to my Chiro after going to my physio week after week with no results. I go to Chiro maybe once every 8 weeks. I wish I started going to him sooner.

            When I was a kid they wanted to cut me open to look at my knee. I refused. It bothered me for over 10 years. Doesn’t bother me since going to the Chiro. It was pretty chronic.

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            • Jane DJ

              Anyone else’s irony meter just melt?. Wow, I bet you’re relieved you refused medical intervention all those years ago.

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  39. Jane DJ

    While alternative medicine can make you feel better – statistics, biochemistry and evidence based science says chances are it won’t make you better. As for integrative medicine – I’m with the Friends of Science on this one. To borrow someone’s comment paraphrasing blogger Mark Crislip’s quote very succinctly:

    “Mixing fantasy with reality doesn’t make the fantasy any more real; all it does is make more fantasy. Mixing a bit of poop with chocolate pudding doesn’t turn the poop into chocolate pudding, but it does turn the chocolate pudding into poop.”

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/02/boiling_integrative_medicine_down_to_its.php

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    • Samantha

      I think leaving it up to science to hold all the answers can be problematic, because science can often have a closed mind to alternative medicine, as we have seen. What I want is for them to get over whatever odd prejudices they have and invest some real time in investigating these alternative means, as opposed to just writing them off. Having crohns disease, the only medicine that keeps it under control is Prednisone, and to keep taking that does serious harm. I would love for scientific and medical industries to study the plants of the Amazon for example, and to also examine the holistic process of healing. I am sure the science behind these is fascinating and worthwhile.

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      • Jane

        Samantha I have a good friend in the raw meetup group here who has cured her crohns with raw food, green smoothies and juicing veges. She started studying medicine before she realised the truth was actually in what we put into our bodies eg food and not medication. Good luck!

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        • georgiepie

          so according to your philosophy, we should just stop taking medication and start eating ‘raw food, green smoothies and juicing veges’ to cure ourselves? Great, I’ll stop taking my insulin, it’s obviously the food I eat that makes me sick, not my faulty pancreas. Oh wait, I’d die within a week…Your friend can’t have been at med school very long.

          Jane I would like to know what your definition of ‘cured’ is. Or at least where you draw the line. Can everyone cure themselves with food e.g. me, people with cystic fibrosis, lupus, cancer, or is it just ‘some’ people?

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          • Jane

            Someone I know once said It makes no difference what you eat when you have a negative attitude! No you definitely do not stop taking medications until you have no more symptoms etc requiring it. This usually happens with 2-4 weeks depending on your medical condition. I have read so many testimonials from people who have changed their lives through adding the right food to their diet. Plant based wholefood diet with no processed food, sugar, meat or dairy. No one is profiting from this except farmers and is definitely not quackery. 
            Depending on what sort of diabetes you have it is reversible. The Simply Raw program is run by doctors and is 30 days on raw food and it reverses diabetes and many other chronic illnesses. Lupus and fibromyalgia and so many other diseases are reversed just with starting green smoothies- leafy greens and fruit. If you google green smoothies the evidence is there- (greensmoothiegirl.com testimonials) hundreds if not thousands reversing lifelong illness through adding what is the most nutritious food we can make and eat in the day! Plus if you are healthy to start with your energy levels go through the roof and you want to start converting others. Not sure why I’m defending and justifying something as basic as food in a post about complementary therapies? Makes me think of the health food section in the supermarket with the packaged food. They should move that sign over to the fruit leafy greens and vegetable section. That’s where the real health food is ! Unpackaged and  unprocessed as nature intends us to eat. Real food needs no labels.
            My personal story is losing 10 years of my life to cancer treatments until nearly dying in 2004 and waking up in hospital with a tube down my throat… http://www.dailygreenbar.com/2010/08/anti-cancer-green-smoothie-and-my-story.html?m=1 and being sent home with all the same toxic medications that had made me unable to get out of bed for the previous 3 years. 
            Lightbulb moment and woke up one morning and thought no more doctors tablets tests scans MRIs.
            The one thing that was missing was nutrition and food so started researching the healthiest foods I could eat and number one on list was leafy greens and plant foods.
            Back to life off all meds and far far away from that nursing home the doctor told my family I’d end up in when I was in my late 30s…

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            • georgiepie

              I have type 1! see my comments below! non reversible. With a healthy diet it is manageable, but not curable. I have a very healthy diet, exercise regularly and my diabetes is well managed, but unfortunately I can’t reverse it. If i had type 2, trust me, thats the first thing I would try! Unless you want to give me your working pancreas :)

              Also, I’m very happy you recovered, that’s amazing! But with all due respect, that is your own personal story – there would have been many factors at play that all came together to get you better. My bf’s mum is very very sick with cancer at the moment-was healthy as anything before she was diagnosed. A green smoothie etc. won’t save her, modern science will. That’s why we have hospitals.

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            • kateinlondon

              LUPUS can be cured in 2-4 weeks using green smoothies? Oh, and sorry, a positive attitude. On behalf of relatives with this chronic disease, what absolute and UTTER twaddle. I would like to put that more strongly but I will leave it there.

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          • Madeline

            Hi Georgie, I’m the friend with Crohn’s that Jane is referring it. I’ve cured my Crohn’s as best as can be done (once the damage is done, the body can never recover back to the state before the disease); however, it’s healed a lot and is in a manageable state, and I do everything that “healthy” people do and my health isn’t degrading (apart from ageing) as it was in the past. I believe prevention is the only “cure”, but in terms of everyday language, I believe I am cured of Crohn’s. The body can heal — My faulty bowels healed a great deal (except for the parts that were removed by surgery 15 years ago). It’s not immediate, and it’s a big effort with even trial and error. But I recommend at least researching it and talking to success cases. Stress management and other natural health things are also important. I’ve found that the unusual approach of lots of raw food, green smoothies and vegie juices to be the most sustainable for keeping my health up.

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            • georgiepie

              thanks madeline, your reply makes it a bit clearer to me, in terms of ‘prevention’ and making it more manageable. ‘Cured’ is a very strong word, and I know you’ll understand when I say that green veggies etc will not get rid of your disease altogether and it
              s frustrating when people say cure. cure and manageable are two different things!

              keeping healthy generally helps with managing your auto immune conditions anyway. Unfortunately I’m not in the same position as you – I’m a type 1 diabetic and if I try to manage it any other way without my insulin I will die in a matter of days,

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          • Jenny

            You need to read this book: The Autoimmune Epidemic by Donna Jackson Nakasawa, published in 2008 by Simon & Schuster. It is available here in Australia at your local library.

            The book covers possible causes of autoimmune
            disease (many of which georgiepie listed), stories of people affected by autoimmune disease and some of their treatments, cutting-edge research from, for example, The Mayo Clinic ;

            Using nontraditional, ancient medical information: Buenz EJ et al. Searching historical herbal texts for potential new drugs. EMJ 2006 Dec. 23: 333(7582):1314-15.

            Also in the book are chapters about food as medicine, supplements used to treat these autoimmune diseases: arachnoiditis, crohn’s disease, MS, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, diabetes and many more of the nearly 100 identified autoimmune diseases.

            Please do some research for your own sake because, as i’m sure your healthcare professional has warned you, if you have an autoimmune disease, you have a greater risk of developing other autoimmune diseases and/or of the one you have worsening over time.

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            • georgiepie

              I really want to stress that I have TYPE 1 diabetes. My pancreas doesn’t work, it’s dead, kaput, gone and there’s nothing I can do. my health isn’t a matter of my body not recognising the insulin like it is in type 2 – I have no insulin to begin with! I did research when first diagnosed, and there have been cases of people with type 2 overhauling their diets and reversing their diabetes, which is incredible! however that is not possible for me. It’s like telling someone with no legs to walk – I simply can’t produce insulin!

              I tried the whole ‘maybe it will work with me’ and tried to do a type 2 reversal diet…ended up in a coma in hospital. Never doing that again :)

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      • Kris2040

        But aren’t those plants, barks, etc already being studied? Or are they not studying them how you want them to be studied?

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        • Samantha

          The pharmaceutical companies do not fund the studies, and do not pay attention to these plants. I wish I had an answer as to why, but it’s not something I understand. Its not about what I want to be studied, its about testimonies of people who have consumed certain plants and been relieved of addictions and ailments, surely that is worth our time? I am all for science, I just wish that the academia that defines it wasn’t such a slow moving thing.

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          • Jane DJ

            Why would people assume that these natural products are not being researched? They are!

            As a science student at uni, I worked alongside a researcher who was studying the anti-microbial effects of tea-tree oil. In the 25 years since then, she has amassed a huge body of ongoing research into it.
            Sorry it is such a slow moving process for you – real research is, I’m afraid.
            Have a look at the complexity of the experimental technique required in a few of the papers – it is mind blowing.
            http://cmr.asm.org/content/19/1/50.full

            No claims of miracle compounds, no quick “cures” for this and that – for that is the realm of the CAM salespeople. No, just lots of hours of hard work, and dedication, even when the results don’t show what you’d hoped – and published anyway. Show me a CAM merchant who’ll admit their stuff doesn’t actually have evidence that it works (hollow laugh)

            I get so frustrated at the dismissive attitudes towards researchers from think-they- know-it-all laypeople.

            They have no idea how much they don’t know.

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            • Samantha

              I was completely understanding until the insulting know it all comment at the end. My interest, and largely what I am talking about here, is the shamanic practices of particular countries, particularly the Amazon. The outlawing of all “hallucinogens” by this ignorant blanket law in the 1950/60′s has informed the majority of our attitudes towards these plants, which is saddening. The occasional scientist has managed to break through these endless barriers (see Rick Straussman and his studies on DMT in the nineties), which is promising. Read the article below, it is fascinating. I think there is so much we haven’t fully mapped out yet, and science is still trying to define. Its an ongoing process, but one that would move more quickly if we had a more open minded approach to the undefinable. We are such cynics! :)

              http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0603/features/peru.html

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          • Kris2040

            Riddle me this then. If they were to research some plant from the Amazon that had some amazing effect on an illness, and found it worked, and then mass produced a medication based on it, would the crunchers be happy? I SERIOUSLY doubt it. Because the crunchy “research teh Amazon!!!!!111″ comes from an anti – whatever viewpoint, so you wouldn’t be interested anyway.

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            • Samantha

              I have no idea what you are talking about, and it feels like you aren’t understanding where I am coming from either. Lets just leave it alone now or this will be a never ending thing!

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            • Kris2040

              OK. You’re saying “Why don’t Big Pharma research stuff people talk about from the Amazon that is working miracles”. It may well be. And it probably is getting researched by someone, because it will make them money potentially, right? So then if, say, Pfizer do all the research you’re asking them to do, and come up with a miracle drug, would the alt med fans use it, or would it be dismissed as more of the evil that big pharma peddles in their quest for the almighty dollar? I think it would be dismissed because it’s being prescribed by a doctor and made by Big Pharma, rather than being some “secret” that a naturopath tells them to make into a tea.

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            • Jane

              I would think the whole plant or leaf root etc is traditionally used. Pharma takes the plant and breaks it down into its separate components and discards the root flower seed leaf etc and isolates the compound or chemical then manufactures that synthetically to use in medication. How do we know the effect of this fracturing? This is why many people prefer to have the whole plant etc not the synthetic version. By the way the term “crunchy” refers to the US stereotype of crunchy granola eating
              soy drinking wacky vege juicing brown rice eating vegan hippies. Generally hate big pharma Monsanto GM foods etc…with good reason!

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            • Kris2040

              Well I would imagine the effect of the “fracturing” would be researched and taken into account as well, Jane.

              I am well aware of the term “crunchy” and how it’s used. It’s one of my favourite descriptions of hippies. Although I do prefer ubercruncher, myself.

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            • Kris2040

              What about if isolating the active component, or fracturing it, and mixing it with other stuff actually makes it safer to take? Like it may make you really nauseous to take it, but mixing it with other stuff makes you able to keep it down?

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      • Madeline

        Hi Samantha, see my comment Georgie below (or above, depending on where this appears). I also believe some of these plants (eg. from the Amazon) could have amazing healing properties for the immune system or as anti-inflammatories, and yes it would be great if more research was done. Good luck.

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    • Cordeline

      But if something makes someone feel better, what’s the problem with that? I don’t understand comments like this one.

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      • Jane DJ

        Whats the harm, you ask?

        www. theconversation.edu.au/reining-in-cowboys-of-complementary-medicine-242

        Gosh, I bet Penny DIngle felt marvellous wrapped in the warm assurances given in the special one on one consults with her homeopathic provider in the early stages of her bowel cancer. Lets see how well that worked out for her:

        http://www.safetyandquality.health.wa.gov.au/docs/mortality_review/inquest_finding/Dingle_Finding.pdf
        What’s the harm?

        www. whatstheharm.net/

        CAM practitioners must adopt some form of accountability before I would ever consider integrative medicine a good idea.
        www .menzieshealthpolicy.edu.au/other_tops/pdfs_events/wardle110810.pdf

        I’ll take an evidence-based treatment anyday, thanks, with research and trials done on it by qualified scientists, with all the risks listed freely on the package insert, or communicated by an accountable medical practitioner.

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        • Cordeline

          In this post, anywhere, I have NEVER suggested that someone should ONLY go for alternative therapy treatment. In fact, I have specifically stated that I think alternative therapy practitioners are dangerous if they think and advertise the fact that they can cure all disease and illness. I was absolutely specific about that. And the fact that I go to doctors and take my children to them.

          But what I do believe is that a holistic approach can work for many people. And a good balance can help improve people’s quality of life.

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  40. Alison

    Any personal or clinical experience to back up that very broad, dismissive claim?

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  41. RuthBT

    Well done Rick on giving a balanced view to this story – Dr Phelps is right – there is definitely a place for complementary medicine.

    I thought I’d share with readers my recent journey into the world of homeopathy. About 10 yrs ago I used it to “balance” – what is called a “constitutional remedy”. It worked great – to the point that my husband reckoned he could tell whether I had taken it or not! He on the other hand got no benefit from taking a constitutional.

    Fast forward a few years to late 2010 and I wind up at a gynecologist to try and stop excessive and extremely painful periods. Sadly, my only option is to have a hysterectomy and he tells me basically, that I am too young and he doesn’t want to do it (such a nice man!!!). So, my options are to take evil drugs with major side effects to clot my uterus or in his words – “look for a solution outside western medicine”.

    Off to a homeopath/nautropath. With a few vitamins (I draw the line at 4 a day!) and a homeopathic remedy I am a new woman after 12 months. I don’t have to have a hysterectomy and basically my periods are like they were when I was a teenager. The gynae is amazed and extremely happy with the outcome too.

    So, for me and lots of others like me I think there is a place for all the branches of medicine. I think they all have their place and not everyone will see the effects but to rule them out entirely is missing the benefit.

    I love the idea of them being taught in universities. My naturopath was university educated and is currently undertaking her Ph.D in endocrinology. Her experience means that she often lectures in a clinical setting to medical undergrads – offering a different but just as valid perspective.

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  42. Trog

    The most effective and ‘last line of defence’ treatment for malaria is a Chinese herbal compound.

    Pharmaceutical companies and other research bodies are actively researching folkloric and alternative cures. They wouldn’t do this if they thought that there’s nothing there.

    If the data collected is rigorous and positive, these alternative medicines become conventional.

    Here is a cool visual representation of this adoption of alternative in to conventional. I don’t vouch for it’s veracity.

    http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/play/snake-oil-supplements/

    You can see how scientists rate your favourite herbal cure and search by health condition to see what is regarded as effective.

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    • Kate

      haha yes, of course was me!! hahaha and by no means was that intentional .. in my haste I forgot to put my name in .. certainly not hiding anything!! :-)

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    • trixie melodian

      “Pharmaceutical companies and other research bodies are actively researching folkloric and alternative cures. They wouldn’t do this if they thought that there’s nothing there.”

      But that’s exactly it – they are researching these treatments for safety, efficacy and results. Because Pharmaceutical companies are bound by a much higher standard of regulation that alt.med. 0they have to prove that a product works before they sell it. Naturopaths are held to no such standard.

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      • Trog

        No arguments here. Some really nasty toxins come from natural sources. Natural doesn’t equal safe. I like the testing.

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  43. justvisiting

    I am a huge fan of acupuncture – worked wonders my chronic back pain and old gymnastic injuries.

    My main concern is chiropractors – I know plenty of people with wrecked back and necks from chiropractors – very scary! Plus a friend of mine sues dodgy chiropractors and her stories are terrifying!

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    • Mel

      Thats a crock. So many years of study is required to be a chiro, there are so
      Many more positive stories around then negative

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    • happymummy

      justvisiting, your comments are totally ridiculous. If chiropractic was so dangerous, it would have been outlawed long ago. Your comments are based on fear and ignorance.
      My uncle is a chiro and has spent over 20 years establishing a thriving practice and is highly respected in the town he works in. For the record, I worked there during my yr 10 work experience and noted that several local GP’s, nurses and othe health professionals used to come in as patients.
      It annoys me that people can make such ignorant sweeping statements and get away with it.

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      • justvisiting

        I didn’t say all chiropractors were dangerous – I have been told that some are excellent. However, I know of several cases where chiropractors caused serious and irreversible damage. For me, its just not worth the risk.

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  44. Dr Joe Kosterich

    These arguments are often at crossed purposes. Eating vegetables will not cure cancer. However eating vegetables ( and less processed foods) reduces your likelihood of getting a number of cancers.
    We need to move away from an either or approach.”Conventional” medicine does some things well and some things badly as does “complementary ” medicine.
    Why not use the best from both worlds?

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    • Mama carol

      Hooray for a balanced and sensible view, thank you!

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  45. Kate

    Brilliantly articulated by Dr Kerryn Phelps.

    Love her acknowledgement of ‘Complementary’ medicine as an integrative model with mainstream medicine. The industry itself no longer refers to it as ‘Alternative’ therapies because we understand how beautifully nature and working wholistically with the body can assist chronic disease and drug therapy, and on the flip side, how integral medicine and surgery is in some cases.

    I’m a final year Naturopathy student who’s been through several surgeries and medical treatment for a chronic condition and I value those doctors and surgeon’s skills immensely. Just as much as I value my naturopath who’s been able to minimise the amount of drugs required to manage my condition and has vastly improved my symptoms via herbs and diet.

    It horrifies me to know how many people are thrown onto statins (for example) or other meds without understanding their own role in their own health and how disempowered they are.

    Where needed, medicine is invaluable. But there are so many other options for people to deal with pain, inflammation and other illness as a first line treatment than popping a pill. Get to know your own body and get curious is all I’m saying …

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  46. amyintheworld

    I have no problem with what I prefer to call complementary therapies. Personally, I simply do not believe in homeopathy, because the theory behind it is simply illogical.
    I don’t for a moment ignore the fact that many people have tried homeopathic remedies and found a difference in their health… however I feel quite strongly that this is in large part due to a couple of other explanations. For example, my friend had a bruise on her leg that she’d had for over a week. She told me is had faded but that it wasn’t gone, so she went to the chemist and was sold a homeopathic cream. The bruise was gone in 5 days. I told her that if the bruise was already fading, then maybe it would have just gone in 5 days anyway? Yes, maybe the cream helped… but there are no trials that had proven it, as such.

    My biggest pet hate in this debate of scientific medicine vs natural therapies is the argument that ‘BIg Pharma’ are evil. I really, really hate it. I find it so insulting to all those that dedicate their lives to researching new medicines to better people’s lives, and the fact that people fob it off as people being money-hungry evil-doers that are simply out there to make sick people sicker irks me to no end. Yes, there are some pharma companies that so some dodgy things, and certainly some individuals who are out to make a big profit. But they are few and far between, and it’s not only in scientific medicine that this can be seen. What about Blackmores? The deal last year where pharmacists were asked to recommend one of their products with all prescriptions? Do people really think that was done because Blackmores are a nothing but a caring, natural company that wants to best for each person? They were trying to make a buck also.

    For the record, I have been to see naturopaths. I went to see one a couple years ago when I was tired all the time, but what I didn’t like about this naturopath was that although she told me that the problem was my schedule (I working full time AND at uni full time, and any time I rostered off for was spent flying to melbourne to see my stepson), she insisted that I ‘needed’ certain vitamins to help me along. They cost $100 and lasted one month. After the first lot (of which I really didn’t notice much difference), I called and told her I couldn’t afford to continue. She told me that I really, really needed to continue with it. I ignored it in the end, but I simply didn’t have $100 to spend on vitamins! She had also told me that I have a great well-balenced diet: my fiance and I eat loads of fresh veggies and fruit, lean meat (particularly kangaroo) and we eat fish at least once a week. When I went back to my doctor, she explained that vitamins would be a help if I couldn’t get all the right foods in my diet, but since I did, she worried about me spending money I didn’t need to. So in this case, it was the natural practioner that was telling me I ‘needed’ to spend money on pills that I didn’t need and didn’t make much difference, and the scientific doctor was the one that was concerned I was wasting my money!

    Alternatively, when I was a teenager I various psychologists who I found made little difference to my depression. When I was 17, I then saw a a woman who I can only descrobe as a white witch, and in one session she made insights into my issues that made a huge difference. Conincidence? Maybe. But she worked for me, and some of her home remedies did make me feel better.

    I don’t like the idea that Friends of Science in Medicine are asking that natural therapies are to be struck off private health lists etc… I agree with Dr. Phepls here – if it works for you, use it. Personally I feel iffy of things that haven’t been backed by some evidence based research, but I won’t tell someone they’re stupid for seeking help if it makes a difference to them. I do take issue with naturopaths or homeopaths advising patients beyond their expertise (for example, they have no knowledge of immunology etc, so I feel they are unqualified for giving advice on vaccination), and I think if you are really sick and want to use natural therapies you should seriously consider doing this IN CONJUNCTION with scientific medicine. However, I don’t think it’s fair to completely disregard something like acupuncture for example, because there has actually been evidence (scientific) to show that it can alleviate the pain of arthritis etc.

    Basically, I think both have benefits, but I certainly don’t think that these therapies should be called medicine in any way. Therapies? Sure. Treatments? Okay. But not medicine. It’s a bit misleading IMO.

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    • Anonymous

      Just like your irritation about the ‘big pharma’ argument, the only thing that irritates me in your posting, and is also a well-peddled anti-natural therapies spiel, is that it’s not based on anything scientific.

      Irrits

      If people actually researched how the courses are run, they’d understand that the entire Advanced Dip. and Bachelor program is based on scientific evidence. It’s completely evidence-based medicine. That’s why I’ve spent the past several years full time studying chemistry, biochemistry and anatomy & physiology. That’s why I’ve spent hours at pathology labs and more days at Sydney Uni’s wet-labs, studying every inch of multiple cadavas from bone and muscle to deep inside the brain and organ systems. That’s why I’ve spent the last year trawling through pharmacognosy and pharmacology texts, and the last 4 days holed up in my apartment, just me and pubmed and sciencedirect databases, tweezing out the pharmacodynamics and pharmacokinetics of hydroxychloroquine, prednisone, cyclosporine and nystatin in Sjogren Syndrome patients, whilst addressing potential herb/drug interactions with Glycyrrhiza glabra and Hemidesmus indicus; 2 herbs that may be used in the treatment of autoimmune or inflammatory conditions such as Sjogren’s. And will now spend at least 4 hours ensuring every one of my 35 references are from peer-reviewed sources, noting whether the studies were viable, well researched, had enough numbers, addressed drop out rates etc etc etc.

      So hey, I’m all for an educated opinion. Each to their own. But I just beg people know what they’re talking about before they start to bash the field of complementary medicine as ‘oogy boogy’ pseudo-science. And whilst I do personally believe in the field of energetic medicine, there is a difference between these forms of healing and studies in Naturopathy, which are very much based on scientific/evidence-based medicine. It’s a government requirement.

      And for the record, I can guarantee my previous Uni degree from Sydney Uni was like kindergarten compared to my current studies. The complementary medicine field has changed immensely in the past few years which is a great thing. I just wish people’s awareness would also change. I’m sure it’s heading that way.

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      • Jane DJ

        How can a belief in energetic medicine fit in with your previous declaration of a solid grounding in understanding evidence-based research? You say ” there is a difference between these forms of healing and studies in Naturopathy, which are very much based on scientific/evidence-based medicine”.
        Explain to me the difference. How do you reconcile the two completely different philosophies each is based on?

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        • Kate

          Oh, really easily Jane! I’m a logical and analytical person by nature (couldn’t escape it with a lawyer for a father!!) which is why I like to question and query everything. And to me, it’s completely *illogical* to think my little brain (or the even the best brains of our time) know absolutely everything there is to know in this vast universe of ours. So while I love to research whatever I can to get closer to ‘the truth’ of anything I’m interested in, I have to remain open to all that we don’t know. Imagine if people stopped believing in ‘nonsensical’ ideas in the 1300s .. Even science is fallible. Not a big deal, granted, but take all the scientific data on magnesium, and if you couldn’t be bothered (don’t blame you) I’ll do it for you … or I’ve already done it for you. Because after a massive research report on magnesium and constipation (lovely topic I know!), there wasn’t a scrap of evidence to ‘prove’ magnesium had any effect (a long held naturopathic piece of wisdom). I desperately wanted to find the ‘evidence’ for this as I thought would be great to be able to suggest magnesium (if indicated) rather than habit-forming laxatives which can permanently affect colon peristalsis. Was so dismayed to find nothing but a vague warning that in very high doses, it may induce a slight laxative effect. And then I decided to trial it on myself. Well, lets just say it opened my eyes to not believe everything that is dubbed ‘medical research’!! Try it!
          And to your point on homeopathy or energetic medicine, I try it on myself and if it works, I want to find out more and how and why and I research it; and if it doesn’t work for me, then I move on.
          In my clinic, I’ve seen an 8 month old baby covered head to toe in eczema for months have it disappear after 2 kinesiology sessions. I’ve studied kinesiology, I didn’t agree with it. I think it’s detrimental and dangerous to have people believe in something so ‘unproven’, especially with allergies which can be serious. Which is why I switched to Naturopathy. And yet, this poor mum who was beside herself returned beaming with her clear-skinned baby. I don’t know why, I don’t know how, but the placebo argument doesn’t cut it on an unassuming baby, so something else is going on. So I stay open and curious and know a few minds in a few select industries on the planet who have the money to hold large scale studies to ‘prove’ how this world operates aren’t god themselves. They’re doing a fantastic job with fantastic minds and fantastic modern-discoveries to help humanity (most of them hopefully), but that doesn’t mean they’ve discovered all there is to know about the universe. And I hope all of us with enquiring minds remain open enough to keep searching for the ultimate truth of healing humanity.

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          • Jane DJ

            “The placebo argument doesn’t cut it on an unassuming baby, so something else is going on.” Desperate people usually seek intervention at the point at which certain conditions are at their worst – unsightly warts, infant eczma, sleeples babies for example. Many conditions and diseases are either self-limited or their course waxes and wanes. If a patient tries something right before the disease symptoms wane, he or she (or even the treating practitioner ) will falsely attribute the clinical improvement to whatever was done right before, even though the intervention may or may not have had anything to do with the patient’s improvement. Confirmation bias means that, if you expect a treatment to work, your tendency, unintentional but real, will be to remember bits of evidence that fit with what you expect and to disregard or forget those that contradict what you expect.
            Because human observation is so fallable and so easily able to misrepresent objective reality is exactly what the scientific method corrects for.

            You want “to remain open to all that we don’t know,” as though to admit the impossibility of some cherished goal is to defeatest, to have a closed mind, to be a naysayer, a pessimist. If all scientific knowledge is tenuous, what have we been doing for the past 300 years? How can I be so sure that the computer upon which I am typing will save my words?
            One of the basic functions of science is to determine what actions are impossible in this real world.
            Choosing between the possible and the impossible is a task carried out by means of the laws of denial, which tie scientists firmly to reality even as imaginations soar unfettered through the universe.
            Another of the central tasks of science is to critically examine all knowledge and to separate from the tentative ideas and false notions of the past facts – that are so well established – that to think them subject to change is to invite wishful thinking and folly.

            In short, just because science doesn’t know everything doesn’t mean we can fill in the blanks with whatever fairy tale nonsense.

            To a physicist, energy is the ability of a physical system to perform work. CAM energy seems to be an imaginary, magical, mystical thing that doesn’t have to do any work the way real energy does.

            “Let’s take known scientific forms of energy (Krebs Cycle, electrocardiograms, magnetic resonance imaging) and contrast to reiki/kinesiology/ “energy.” The Krebs Cycle, electrocardiograms, MRIs, pulsed electromagnetic fields, and all the other electricity, X-rays, magnetism, and other forms of energy fields used in medicine are well understood. Their properties are well characterized scientifically through decades of observation and experimentation. We know how to produce these energy forms; we know how to measure them accurately. We know how the energy fields due to X-rays and the radiowaves and magnetism of MRI interact with the human body. They result in reproducible effects that can measure the effects. As for as chemical energy goes, we know how the Krebs Cycle works and how it produces ATP in cells. We’ve known it for several decades, biochemists having painstakingly worked out all the steps and chemical intermediates a long, long time ago.
            Contrast these forms of energy to CAM magical “energy.” It can’t be measured. No one can even prove that it exists, that it interacts with biological systems, or that practitioners can manipulate it, much less use it for therapeutic effect. It’s an utterly false comparison and boils down to a complete misunderstanding of what energy is (whether willful or not, I don’t know)” from
            http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/07/reiki_in_the_icu.php

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            • Kate

              How sad. Not that you don’t agree with my opinion, but that you feel the need to be completely right and are closed to anyone else’s opinions. Why?

              It really doesn’t matter to me, you’re allowed to believe what you want. As I pointed out, the debate was on comparing apples with apples and medicine with complementary medicine.

              Energetics is another valid field in my opinion for the reasons outlined above but if you don’t believe in it, then don’t. Simple. Fortunately, no one’s intelligence and belief system is based on your (or anyone else’s) opinion of it.

              But perhaps don’t use quotes from one individual’s opinion-based blog to back up your own cause. The methodology’s not very scientific.

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            • Kris2040

              Kate, the whole point of Jane’s excellent post is contrasting established scientific methods with “believing in something”. Until it can be proven repeatedly, it’s still just believing in something. Why is it so bad to point out the difference?

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            • Jane DJ.

              My mind is completely open!

              “You show me that it works and how it works
              And when I’ve recovered from the shock
              I will take a compass and carve “Fancy that!” on the side of my —-.” Dear Tim Minchin!!

              Orac is a respected practising oncologist, his links to valid scientific studies in his incredibly well-researched blog are the reason I link to and quote from so often. The methodology is not scientific – really? That sound you just heard was irony meters exploding all over the world.

              As for my mind being closed to opinions – “why?”, you ask. Well, in your case that’s very easy to answer – opinion is worthless unless it is groundable in fact, oriented towards a search for truth, and accountable to reason. Anybody who accepts energetics is so utterly divorced from anything vaguely resembling reality that they can be given no credence on any other scientific or medical question.

              If only it was just your opinion and belief – but you are charging for it. That’s why I take objection.

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      • amyintheworld

        Hmmm… I think you misundertsood my post. That’s the only reason I can think for your rather hostile reply.
        I didn’t say anywhere that natural therapies are not at all based in science. I said that I felt personally uncomfortable about using something that isn’t backed by science, but I didn’t say it all wasn’t.
        I know that now, many naturopathic studies include chemistry, biology and physics. But that’s a fairly new thing. A friend of mine has just begun studying to be a naturopath and it’s full on. It hasn’t always been that way though – even you yourself pointed out that the field has changed lots in the last few years. I also noted that I have been to natural practioners – yes, I mentioned one story where I wasn’t happy, but that was in reference to my addressal of the fact that many people claim that pharm companies are all out to just get money, and I was pointing out that it’s not really that black and white. I also mentioned that I had a great experience with a natural practioner. My fiance has also had some health problems for a long time. He was going to his normal doctor, who I really didn’t like. I never met her personally, but she kept prescribing him different things over and over again. He was getting really thrown around by various medications and when he asked if it could be a food intolerance, she brushed it away. So he went to my doctor, who has a very holistic approach, and she got him to a gastroendronologist (can’t spell that sorry!). He found nothing wrong with his tummy, but recommended psyllium husk. It’s helped a ton, but he’s still having problems. So my doctor has suggested he see a naturopath, which we’re going to do.

        When I said that I think it should be called complementary therapy I do stand by it… or perhaps remedies would be a better term. The word medicine does hold a certain definition, and despite the fact that natural remedies are now inclusive of a more throrough learning of the human body and how it works, natural practioners prescribe items that can be found over the counter. There’s nothing wrong with that, and I’m not discrediting their knowledge at all. They are still in the health feild.
        When I said I take issue with natural practioners advising beyond their expertise, I mainly meant big health issues, like cancer for example. A girl I went to high school with was very ill all the time, and she saw a naturopath/homeopath who told her it was simply her diet. When change of diet did nothing and she was getting sicker, the practioner continued to advise her to take certain vitamins etc. He never referred her to get tests or anything. Finally she went to a doctor, and they took a few tests – she had ovarian cancer. Sadly, she’d left it too long, and had to have both her ovaries removed. At 17 years of age, she had to square with the fact that she could never have children. I think it should have been the homeopath’s responsibility to admit he didn’t have an answer and refer my friend on, but he didn’t, and it was because of this and the wasting of her time that cost a teenager her ovaries.
        My friend’s schooling that she is doing has a unit about referrals, and I think this is fantastic.
        I also think that naturopathy should be offered at universities. It would certainly give it more support, and it would help ensure that there is a standard for what students learn. I’ll never be able to square with homeopathy, because the science has told us that past certain dilutions, water no longer contain a chemical or additive. So the whole ‘water memory’ thing to me means that it’s just a placebo. Again, if it works for some people and they get relief, great – but I couldn’t use it myself.

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        • Kate

          I apologise if my replied appeared hostile, I was more frustrated at the arguments I hear time and time again about the industry which are simply untrue in modern day naturopathy, that was all I wanted to point out.

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          • Jane DJ

            http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/02/naturopathy_versus_science.php

            “Despite their affinity for non-science-based medical systems, naturopaths crave the imprimatur of science. As a result, they desperately try to represent what they do as being science-based, and they’ve even set up research institutes, much like the departments, divisions, and institutes devoted to “complementary and alternative medicine” (CAM) that have cropped up on the campuses of legitimate medical schools and academic medical centers like so many weeds poking through the cracks in the edifice of science-based medicine.

            Naturopaths also really, really don’t like it when they encounter criticism that their “discipline” is not science-based.”

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  47. Lucy

    Love this Tim Minchin video on alternative medicine – well worth watching (funny, entertaining and with a point).

    Check out this video on YouTube:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U&feature=youtube_gdata_player

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    • Laura

      Love it! Tim Minchin is an amazing man!

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  48. Lucy

    If it’s used to make you feel better at a superficial level – then fine.

    But if it’s used to replace medical treatment for serious issues, then is dangerous. There is some interesting literature around Steve Jobs & this as a case example to debate.

    Al

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  49. Jane

    Curing cancer with root vegetables? Would more likely be vegetable juices to get the immune system as healthy as possible to then start fighting the cancer naturally. Drs do not study nutrition at medical school and basically know nothing about the healing properties of food. When you go to the doctor ( yes great for life saving emergency surgery and blood tests etc) and get given a prescription you are basically supporting a billion dollar big pharma industry that wants to keep you just sick enough no money in healthy people! Prescription medicine has killed more people than alternatives…
    Food is your medicine. The wrong sort causes disease then the right food reverses it! Evidence? See Forks Over Knives, Food Matters, Fat Sick and Nearly Dead, Simply Raw Reversing diabetes in 30 days…

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    • Craig

      People have tried to cure cancer with root vegetables. They died.

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      • Rose

        Not all of them.
        Many cancer sufferers have survived much longer than their prognosis suggested, by supplementing their diet with vegetable juices, including root juices (amongst other things). Many are still alive today.

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      • Kate

        People have tried to cure cancer with chemo. They died.

        Neither chemo nor extreme dietary changes are ‘wrong’ .. they both have incredible success rates and incredible failures. Neither is perfect, and both should be options (or concomitant) depending on the individual.

        Why other people feel the need to tell someone the right course of action for *their* health and *their* body, whether it’s medical or via complementary therapies, is beyond me.

        Listen to your body and do what’s right for you, whether that’s herbs, diet, energy medicine, drugs or surgery. They all have their place.

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        • Cordeline

          beautifully said Kate

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        • Craig

          It really has got nothing to do with the individual and everything about the disease they have. You are comparing apples and oranges. I find it very difficult to believe that if a doctor suggests chemo and you decide vegetables instead that the veggies would have an ‘incredible success rate’. If you have a cold, go for the veggies.

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          • Anonymous

            Heard of the Gerson Institute? the Gawlor Foundation? And consider those patients with multiple immunological conditions where taking chemo may actually do more harm than good. Which is why doctors do give patients the choice (a doctor will never force chemo, it’s always the patient’s choice) and for very good reason. They know how dangerous chemo is; it’s not a ‘cure-all’ and has very serious, sometimes lethal, side effects. Again, I’m not anti-chemo. I’m pro individual choice.

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            • Trog

              Hey Anonymous, wild guess, but would you be Kate by any chance?

              ;)

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          • Rose

            I’m not suggesting either or. I’m suggesting both.

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          • Cordeline

            Sorry, but I think that’s rubbish.

            Every BODY is different. Every BODY will handle a disease/condition in slightly different ways. Thing that every BODY is the same and will respond the same to each disease is like comparing apples and oranges. No two bodies are the same.

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            • Quokka

              That makes no sense. Are you suggesting that every single human heart functions in a completely unique way? Seriously? Of course there is a degree of individual difference but essentially human anatomy is the same.

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    • Anonymous

      The scale of the conspiracy you suggest would put the fake moon landing to shame. All the doctors, scientists, governments all in cahoots to serve the mighty drug companies.

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    • Rick Morton

      Man, I just picked the first thing that came to mind when I wrote root vegetables. The mind boggles.

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      • Rose

        Funny thing that, Rick.

        I have just done a retreat for people with cancer and other chronic, long-term illnesses. Their approach is based on diet (vegan, combined with veggie juices – mainly carrot, carrot/celery/beetroot – so “root veggies” wasn’t that far off – or green veggie juice), meditation, exercise, in addition to any medication/chemo/ radiation the individual’s oncologist prescribes. It’s an “AND” approach. If you choose to do the either/or approach, that’s also OK, as long as you embrace it fully.
        Only one person there (out of 31 with cancer) had chosen not to have chemo, because her oncologist had told her it would make so little difference to her prognosis. Everyone else was having chemo or radiation or surgery.
        People made their decisions (and/or) based on their beliefs, advice from oncologists, and their current prognosis.

        It’s an individual decision, no-one has the right to judge or get irritated by decisions others make about their own health.

        I think if there were fewer shonky, lazy or uninformed medical and complementary practitioners, and there was adequate funding to undertake scientific research (i.e. double blind research studies) on complementary approaches, this debate would be very different.

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    • Jeni

      Well said Jane

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    • Wendy

      I watched Fat, sick and Nearly Dead. I didn’t see much evidence in it. I saw a lot of advertorial though.

      I’m not surprised his health improved following his juice diet though. His diet was particularly poor prior to the diet.

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  50. Mia

    I use Rescue Remedy!
    No idea if it works but I like to take it. Maybe it’s the alcohol in it that does the trick…..

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    • Cordeline

      I love me a bit of Rescue Remedy too!

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    • So does my partner R…she even gives it to the cats…

      ;)

      I look on in amused disdain…

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    • trixie melodian

      Depends if you throw back shots of it @mia…

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    • Nico

      If the actual remedy doesn’t work, than the brandy they add to it will calm us down!

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