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chaplains1 News: School chaplains are now illegalSchool chaplains are back in the news again today. In a win that could have come straight from “The Castle”, one Queensland dad has taken the Federal Government all the way to the High Court in Canberra – and won.

It’s about a whole lot more than the vibe though – because this case has concrete ramifications. It could potentially invalidate large chunks of existing federal legislation.

In his case, Queensland dad Ronald Williams argued that the Federal Government program, which funds chaplains in schools breached constitutional protections of religious freedom.

Although that claim was dismissed, the High Court did find that the Commonwealth Government does not legally have the power to use consolidated revenue (which is essentially just a fancy name for the Government’s day-to-day bank account) to fund the chaplaincy program.

Our Attorney-General Nicola Roxon is determined to find a way around the decision and has committed to keeping the chaplains in their jobs. However this decision also sets a precedent that could apply to other Government programs. In the future we may well see more challenges coming from interest groups who don’t like the way Government money is spent on arts or sports programs, for example.

The appropriateness of funding for chaplains in schools is a debate that has divided the opinions of Mamamia readers in the past. But this legal decision, coupled with today’s census results, that reveal the proportion of Australians who have ‘no religion’ is rising – the argument for chaplains in schools is weakening.

Here is what one of our former writers, Rick, penned previously:

You see, the Australian Government spends $222 million on putting chaplains in schools across the country. Not school counsellors or guidance officers or more support staff for disabled students. Chaplains.

There’s no doubt about it – many chaplains are lovely, dedicated individuals. Some have families. Some don’t. But in a secular country, in a time of apparently tough budget measures, spending $222 million on extending the chaplaincy program into 2014 is way off the mark.

Chaplains are not trained professionals. And for the most part they represent just one faith.

Here’s an excerpt from the program guidelines:

“While the key tasks of a school chaplain will vary depending on the needs of individual schools and their communities, they could include, but would not be limited to: assisting school counsellors and staff in the delivery of student welfare services; supporting students to explore their spirituality; providing guidance about spiritual, values and ethical matters; and facilitating access to the helping agencies in the community, both religious-based and secular.”

The helping students explore their spirituality part all seems very nice if, as the program says they must, chaplains only do so with students who want to, and parents who give their permission. But that isn’t always the case.

Have a look at this, from ABC online:

“The religious organisation that provides chaplains to Victorian schools appears to have breached federal guidelines that forbid it from trying to convert children.

Access Ministries provides chaplains to 280 Victorian schools and 96 per cent of special religious education classes…. The national school chaplaincy code of conduct, which every chaplain must sign, stipulates they should not take advantage of their privileged position to try to convert children to their religious belief or denomination.

But on its website, the boss of Access Ministries outlines a strategy to “make students disciples.”

When you consider that part of a Chaplain’s work description is to offer ‘support and guidance about ethics, values, relationships, spirituality and religious issues’, the kind of advice being given out to a pregnant teenager, a teenager contemplating sexual intercourse for the first time, a gay teenager and so on is alarming.

So there we have it. A political fix for a political problem, and schools miss out on $222 million that could have been better spent. Imagine how many desperately needed teacher aides $222 million could have funded. There are arguments for the chaplains in schools but they’re easily rebuked. Let’s try.

1. Chaplains are good friends for students.

So are trained counsellors.

2. Chaplains are a shoulder to lean on and provide good advice.

So do trained counsellors.

3. Chaplains help support staff and parents too.

So do trained counsellors.

4. Chaplains aren’t allowed to preach so they’re OK.

Neither are trained counsellors. Also, refer to the case in Victoria mentioned above.

5. Chaplains are non-denominational really, it says so in the guidelines!

Trained counsellors are definitely non-denominational. Also, refer to the case in Victoria.

6. They’re not harming anybody.

We’d be a lot safer spending the money on trained professionals. What will a chaplain say to that pregnant teenager? To the Muslim child? To the gay kid? To the girl or boy who wants to talk contraception? The kind of safe, considered and reasonable advice can be given by a counsellor. Not by a chaplain.

The arguments go on and on but the bottom line is this: chaplains do nothing that trained professionals could not in a support role. If you’re serious about why kids need support, you’d hire counselors.

If you need to buy votes, however, well there’s a chap for that.

Do you think the Government should be funding chaplains in schools? Does your child attend a school with a chaplain? If you has $222 million to spend on schools education, what would you fund?

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479 Comments so far

  1. Anonymous

    I have attempted to read through the ensuing commentary on this, before posting – but the overwhelming feeling I am getting is a whole lot of anger – so much for atheism killing that off.

    I have no problem with a Chapilency program where children have the opportunity to reflect on their moral compass quietly once a week. I think adults could benefit with such an allocated time – occassionly I attend Church for weddings and Christenings or at Christmas, and I know I always appreciate those quiet moments. I defiantly don’t want my children to think that reflecting on your attitudes, values or solving a problem, whether with a Counsellor or your local Minister, is something you start doing when you want to have sex for the first time or you accidentally fall pregnant!

    I went to an Anglican school, and we were taught in our RE lessons about a whole spectrum of religions, which broadened my perspective on life. I am glad my parents were not of the camp that I was under no circumstance to receive any spiritual guidance or reflection until I was 18. From an ethical perspective, the spiritual guidance I had received, assisted me as I confronted adult deliemas for the first time.

    I just think we hear a lot of complaining about Gen Y and those younger, not having respect for themselves or others. Maybe if they were given some time to reflect on themselves and the people around them, it would be helpful. If this is with help of a Chaplin so be it.

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  2. Amandarose

    I found it very odd they even have scripture is school these days. I don’t mind kids learning about religion but I think it should be a bit about all of them not just one. Sends your kids to a private school if you want religion involved.

    As for chaplains- They are great in hospitals and nursing homes- Places your feeling a need to connect spiritually( the prospect of death has that effect)

    But in schools? Not so sure. There are plenty of counseling services outside
    the school, and if people are religious they have pastors and ministers at church for that. I just assumed most schools had counseling services available and if not what is wrong with talking to a teacher you trust of putting people in contact with outside services if needed( like head space).

    Seems kind of pointless really. I personally would never have spoken to a counselor but I did find the chaplain at the hospital rather pleasant when my mum was dying. maybe that is where they belong- not in schools.

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  3. chocolate aeroplane

    Couldn’t agree more Rick.

    I have no problem with people making their own choices about their own faith – I am not religious but I have friends and family members who are and if it makes them happy then I have NO problem with that at all. I also don’t have a problem with scripture classes in schools in that if you delegate a religion on your enrolment form then that’s what your child will be taught. What I do have a bit of a problem with is that my daughters have half an hour a week that is ‘nothing’ time because they don’t go to scripture class – I have to request that their teachers give them something interesting or educational to do so they’re not just watching TV or colouring in. To me it is half an hour of precious school time that is potentially wasted. Bring on ethics classes I say!

    As far as Chaplains in schools are concerned? Again I’m sure they’re lovely people and aren’t doing any harm (although I too would be wary about how they treat ‘alternative’ kids) but I would MUCH prefer that our $$ are spent on better support for kids eg. anti bullying programs, school counsellors, special needs programs and gifted and talented programs. My children don’t need someone who is highly religious supporting them – I would not be overly comfortable with that.

    Definitely smell a vote-buying rat here and disappointed in Ms Gillard’s choices on this one.

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  4. Cee

    I agree. There was a chaplain at my school in Brisbane, and yeah she was pleasant enough, but what could she offer that the counsellors or nurse cant? If a student wants religious direction they can quite easily consult local priests, rabbais, imams etc.

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  5. Tom

    If chaplains cost around $222 million, how much would trained professionals cost? After some research, chaplains either volunteer their time, or earn around $20 a hour; trained counsellors and the likes earn in excess of $60 per hour in student guidance positions… Won’t it just be a bunch more expensive for a similar outcome?

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    • Rick Morton

      Except that most schools have counsellors and guidance staff anyway. So what further function do the chaplains serve? The $222m, to my mind, would be better spent on teacher aides. Every single teacher aide is so valuable, so even if it only funded 60 for a few years it would be worth it.

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    • Anonymous

      Really?? I thought it was way less where are you getting that figure?

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  6. KateH

    Couldn’t agree more! Unfortunately this just goes to show that despite formal separation of Church and State, the Churches still have a strong influence in Australia. It also shows how little impact an Atheist Prime Minister has had on the National agenda (remember the hysteria when Gillard first came to power?).

    I think religion has no place in public, Government funded schools. I recall scripture classes being held back when I was in primary school, and being forced to attend despite my objections because for the first time in 7 years my parents had forgot to write a note requesting that I be excused. I also recall the school chaplain at my High School hosting “pizza parties” at lunch time where all students were invited to enjoy the ‘free’ takeaway pizza, while they listened to some bible stories and discussed religion (this part was not widely publicized). There really is no such thing as a free lunch!

    Surely bribery with pizza constitutes a breach of the guidelines?

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    • Anonymous

      OMG I remember this being done at my school too! shady.

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  7. Guest

    We are Jedi in our house – yes, laugh if you must but really and truly its much better than what is on offer in many churches these days. I voted for JG (mainly because our local member is Jenny macklin and she has been fantastic) however I won’t be voting for JG again. This issue and the ‘Malaysian solution’ have confirmed my vote will be going elsewhere. Obe One where are you?… May the force be with you.

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    • Anonymous

      Don’t forget to choose ‘no religion’ in the upcoming census though as the jedi choice can skew the vote.

      All non religious people need to choose this option to show we are generally a non religious society and our taxes need to be spent on other areas.

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      • Kate!

        Excellent advice! Thanks.

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    • Lucy

      I think you mean “Obi-Wan”…! And you call yourself a jedi… pfffft ;-)

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  8. Two Mummies

    My partner is a high school teacher, had nothing but praise for the school chaplain up until the day when an issue to do with a same-sex attraction was raised. Chaplain suddenly not so interested in helping ALL students. Happy to support kids who are straight and have problems but apparently being gay is against her Christian principals so unable to get involved. Sends a great message to the kids hey….being gay is a sin so I can’t help you. Just imagine what sort of help would be on offer if she did feel able to assist….gay-washing anyone?

    If you can’t give 100% and be non-judgemental to every child in school whether they are gay, straight, muslim, atheist….then get out of the school as you will end up doing more harm than good.

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    • sometimeskaren

      No way?!

      Using that logic, it’s against “Christian principles” to lie, steal and cheat too. Hope the chaplain hasn’t helped any of *those* rotten kids either.

      That’s so sad.

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      • Two Mummies

        It is very sad as she has otherwise been an excellent support to many students. The other downside is that it makes it even harder for same-sex attracted students in the school because it will be their problems that are responsible for the Chaplain getting into trouble.

        It won’t be the nice Chaplain woman people get upset with it will be those ‘pesky gays’ causing the issues.

        I am sure it won’t be seen that way by everyone but a significant number of students, parents and even teachers will see it just like that.

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      • Melissa J

        Ummm lies stealing and cheating ARE wrong. BEING GAY IS NOT!!!!

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        • sometimeskaren

          Woops… I’ll clarify…

          The chaplain’s values don’t validate homosexuality. I’d bet her values also don’t validate lying etc. The chaplain believes that homosexuality is wrong, even if the vast majority of other people don’t. She’s going to come across many other students who happily indulge in other ‘amoral’ behaviours (according to her value system) yet she singles out homosexuals as the ones she won’t minister to. I’d be interested to know how she feels about students engaging in premarital (hetero) sex, for instance, because biblically speaking that’s on par with homosexuality.

          Hope that’s a better explanation of my comment!

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          • Melissa J

            Well I guess the difference is that lying/stealing/having pre-marital sex is a behaviour, a choice.
            Being gay is not.
            I really strongly believe that anything that makes gay kids feel like outcasts at that age is dangerous and heart breaking. :-(

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  9. zzyss

    Any thoughts around what constitutes a “trained counsellor”? I’m not against the argument being proposed in this article at all, but I thought there was a lot of controversy over who is considered qualified to belong to the counselling profession – the word on the street is that anybody with a certificate claiming to be a counsellor can practice as one, and there is a severe lack of compliance, regulation, etc. to ensure that counselling patients are given a high standard quality of care.

    Hence at this point in time I don’t think it would be viable to simply swap out chaplains and replace them with “trained counsellors” – which is not to say that chaplains are the ideal for now, but that the suggestion would cause a “gold rush” of shonks if not implemented properly (and I’m sure we can all agree that the Gillard government is waaaay too distracted at the moment to give it due attention).

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    • Anonymous

      Where I am from school counsellors use to have to also have a teaching degree, as well as their social work qualifications (university level).

      Now they have to just have the university degree – 4 years.

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    • Yet another Anon

      Here in NSW to have a paid role as a counsellor you need to belong, or be eligible to belong, to the APA (Australian Psychologists Association) or the AASW (Australian Association of Social Workers).

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  10. danyawellington

    I didn’t send my kids to a religious school because I don’t want religion in their life. If they want to find it at adults good luck to them. I have chosen a secular school for a reason and I would have expected it to be respected. Spend the money elsewhere.

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  11. Benita (MissBenben)

    I’m not sure if chaplaincy rules are different from each state/town/school, but when I was speaking to our chaplain about the position, she told me that, although she is a christian, she’s not allowed to preach it to the kids. Her job is to provide a listening ear to kids who want to talk, and just make herself available by interacting and sharing ideas with the kids. It’s totally up to the kids whether they interact with her; she used to have craft sessions in the library during little lunch and big lunch, and the kids who wanted to would go up and chat to her while they did their craft. Her job was to listen to the kids and provide support, not preach to them. Like I said though, our school community is very small, and the guidelines may be different for each school. I would be really interested in hearing from other school counsellours, as there seem to be a lot of different opinions on here about what school counsellours are all about. Ours certainly didn’t teach/preach any sort of religious instruction at all. She said her guidelines didn’t allow her to.

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    • sharonalger

      The guidelines don’t allow them to, and it sounds like this lovely lady was doing her job properly. However, there are a lot of cases of the guidelines being disregarded, and that’s what concerns me.

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      • MelGardener

        Also, I would imagine from the Chaplain’s point of view, it would be very difficult to stay silent and provide support if the child was confiding something that went directly against your religion. I know the gay child scenario is used a lot as an example but what about the 15 year old who is thinking of having an abortion? It just seems that there would be an underlying conflict of interest between what the religion/faith decrees and what the child needs to hear and even the most kind, caring and considerate Chaplain would be in a very awkward position.

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        • Rick Morton

          And the guidelines actually say, as I quoted, that they are expected to provide guidance and advice in accordance with their faith or belief. Which is fine 95% of the time…not so fine for the other 5%.

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    • Anonymous

      Then why not just employ anyone with similar characteristics for this role? Why do they have to be religious?

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  12. Rose (www.the-budding-rose.blogspot.com)

    Hmm. I think you’re right in saying that this is a political fix for a political problem. We all know Julia’s an atheist and perhaps this is supposed to fix this image in a political sense? I couldn’t give two hoots whether our PM is an atheist, religious nut, gay, a woman etc etc – as long as they are getting the job done and investing money in the right direction. I think $222 million for school chaplains is a waste of money.

    I understand that Julia is passionate about education but I am disillusioned as to how this will help our schools.

    I really don’t know what she stands for.

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  13. sometimeskaren

    I’m a practising Christian and I have to say that $222m on chaplaincy programs makes me pretty uncomfortable.

    *Not every school community is the same. Chaplains would be a great addition (and easy to find) for some schools and not others. A one-size-fits-all chaplaincy program for the entire country seems crazy to me.

    *Whilst many chaplains would bring considerable skillful objectivity to the job, many of them wouldn’t. I know a lot of Christians, and some of them are quite insensitive, naive or basically wrong when giving advice or counsel to kids and teens. You’d hope that their basic training would mitigate this potential problem, but I doubt the majority of potential Chaplains would be undergoing rigorous, examinable training.

    *I have 3 children in school and it is heartbreaking to see so many of their peers without adequate clothing, nutrition and equipment. It’s equally sad to see many children lag behind academically. Many parents (quite rightly) are upset that their children are made to do worksheets whilst other children go to a scripture class – yet have you ever seen a child sit alone in the library whilst the rest of the class goes off to the hall for a special dance class or science show? I have and it’s devastating. $222m needs to go to the sort of things that give our kids dignity and opportunity.

    *At school assemblies we regularly have visitors from the Scouts, the AFL, the local *whatever* club. I can’t see why churches can’t do the same – send along someone to have a chat about what a church can provide in the way of spiritual support (all under the gaze of the teachers) and then leave pamphlets for those students who wish to make contact with a church after hours, hopefully with mum & dad’s consent.

    I’m absolutely in favour of kids and teens having access to spiritual counsel, but I just don’t think that it’s right to take funds from the Federal education budget to provide it. Schools get saddled with the task of providing services and information for every last thing in society, and on this one I’d much rather it coming directly from the churches themselves.

    On a bit of a tangent, I should provide a disclaimer. My husband and I actually run a teens/young adults program at our church. We run it pretty much as a bible study group with the odd social activity. From time to time we get kids coming to us with problems and, as we’re not trained counselors, we direct them to their parents and/or professional counselling services. Occasionally we get a visit from under-18s who aren’t part of our congregation, but who are interested in checking out Christianity. We check that their parents know they’re coming and that they’re okay with it. As much as I love to see new converts to Christianity, I believe it’s essential that parents are respected and that they’re given every opportunity to guide their own children in whatever faith they choose. When the church starts converting kids behind their parents’ backs it’s pretty darn dicey all round.

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    • sharonalger

      Thank you so much! You are one of the types of Christian I would be proud to call a friend in real life:)

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      • meerkath

        I agree and Sharon, most Christians I know, my own family included, would agree. Not all of us have blind faith and a desire to convert all and sundry. I send my kids to a Catholic school that alongside regular “religion” ir bible stories, has taught other religions, global justice, land rights, global poverty, and alongside creationism, an alternative and correct scientific view of how the world was made. Our kids have been taught to question from an early age and respect differences and practice tolerance. I hate that people think that all Catholic schools preach hellfire and damnation because that is so not true in today’s current learning environment. Yes, they go to Mass at school but we are fine with that, we pay for a Catholic school education and that is part of it.
        I agree that Scripture is OK in public schools for those who want I but what about ethics classes? Who would decide the curriculum? Anfpd whose ethics would be taught? Very problematic:(

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        • sharonalger

          Ethics teachers are trained, and the curriculum was decided last year
          by the St James Centre with Verity Firth’s blessing. They don’t
          teach set ethics, they ask kids to explore concepts of right and wrong

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          • meerkath

            That’s cool, I didn’t know so thank you, it sounds like it would be a good program, better that than chaplains!

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  14. Mala

    I am completely outraged by this budget decision. So much so that I am virtually frothing at the mouth. Firstly, what place to chaplains have in a SECULAR public school system? Religious parents have options to educate their children into their faith eg. religious schools, Churches, Sunday schools and the like. It is getting to the point that as an athiest I have no option to educate my child in a secular setting. YES I want her to learn about religion, all of them actually. But I want this to be done in an objective, factual way, not as a series of subjective statements and stories presented as facts. As things are this is becoming impossible.

    At my daughter’s PUBLIC primary school they have whole school Catholic services to celebrate Easter & Christmas and also to commemorate Anzac Day. There are at least 6 other faiths represented by students at her school but these are ignored (outside of scripture classes). Last year I had my daughter (who was in kindy) sit out of the Catholic Easter service (I had to write a formal letter to achieve this), but I was the ONLY parent at her school to do so (despite 1/3 of all students attending non-scripture classes). She felt left out being the only child not to attend, so I’ve let her go to subsequent services despite the fact that I don’t want her too. I should not be put into this position. Religion should NOT be an issue in a secular school system.

    Secondly, it has been my observation (through close friends experiences) that The Family Court System has been doing a fairly atrocious job (under what I imagine are immensely challenging circumstances) with the funds they’ve had to date. They can’t afford to have their funds slashed further…and for a Chaplaincy programme that nobody needs? What a joke. Actually it isn’t a joke, it’s an atrocity.

    I’m now going to channel my rage into a letter to JG. Ohhhh, I’m soooo mad!!!

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    • Anonymous

      thats your/your daughters issue that she felt left out. I guess as soon as we as a nation stop using Easter and Christmas as public holidays, then we all can embrace the non secular stuffs.
      If it upsets you that much, why not go chat to the principal? or change schools? there are always options.

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      • Anonymous

        Uprooting a child from their friends and school seems a bit drastic for two annual celebrations.

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      • Lulu

        Why should someone have to change schools if she just wants the public school to be secular? Besides, there’s no guarantee that the next school would be any better.

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    • Lu

      Mala, I understand your point of view. Being a Catholic who went to state schools, all of our religious celebrations followed the Church of England tradition. We had to sing God save the queen, we had a picture of the Queen on the wall and our schools version of the Lords Prayer was the Protestant version. Our annual Christmas service was held in the local Church of England Church.
      Being exposed to that though, didnt harm me, it educated me about the differences. I think if we deny our children any sort of exposure to religious celebrations and experiences we are going to make them totally blinkered and unable to form their own educated opinion for themselves. I dont want my kids forming their opinions because they are just doing what I have told them to do. I want them to appreciate that they like or dont like something because they know about it and have experienced some of it and choose to follow, or not follow for themselves.

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    • MelGardener

      I also opted out of my child attending service at Easter and Christmas at the local Church. We sat together and had a talk about it so she was aware of why we thought it wasn’t appropriate for her to attend and she was part of that decision making process. There were a few other kids who also didn’t attend and the school provided supervision (same set up as for Scripture) for those who didn’t go.

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  15. Lu

    My children go to Catholic schools. But what most people dont understand about religious schools is that in their religion classes they learn about all religions and their customs. My children are far more aware of other religions and respectful and understanding of the differences than I ever was as a child going to a public school with no religious education. Education is the best tool. I worry about people who choose not to believe in something when they have had no exposure to the teachings and customs to form that opinion.

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    • sharonalger

      Does that apply to muslim, buddhism, wicca, etc? I’ve seen many dismiss some of these (myself included with some of these I mentioned), without the teachings

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      • Anonymous

        Went to a Catholic school, religious studies was mandatory, had to learn about the five major religions including Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism and the major denominations of Christianity.

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        • sharonalger

          See, I’m happy for my child to learn about other religions, just
          not to be instructed (or preached at ) in any religion. I thought
          when you said the above you were referring to religious instruction (preaching), if that’s
          not what you meant, then my apologies:)

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      • Lu

        They have been to a buddhist temple, had a Rabbi visit them and have been taught about other religions in class. :)

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    • Craig

      Mine too. I’m an avowed atheist, which is precisely why I wanted the kids to be exposed to RE – they will hopefully be equipped with enough knowledge to make an informed decision for themselves.

      I have been generally pretty happy with the broad scope encompassed by RE. They are as likely to be studying ethics or Islam or Aboriginal mythology as the Catholic catechism.

      That said, I am pretty unhappy about $222M being used to insert chaplains into the secular school system. My decisions about how and where my kids were educated were based on choice and there seems to be a distinct lack of it in this initiative.

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    • Kate!

      I am an atheist and my children attend a variety of religious activities – occasional church and sunday school with my parents (christians) and various other things when we find them available. Other atheists I know also try to expose their children to lots of different things so that the children can make their own decisions about what they believe in. Which contrasts to the intent many religious families seem to have for their children. The idea that atheists try to prevent their children learning about religion is up there with the one about atheists not having a strong and compassionate ethical foundation….

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  16. Anonymous

    Ridiculous.
    The cycincal part of me just sees it as a move for a non-religious PM to get religious votes.

    Last night I heard myself tell my hubby..
    ‘Australia needs an election. It’s not fair that we have a prime minister making all these decisions for us .. and we DIDNT vote her in’

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    • An Idle Dad

      Gillard’s position as Prime Minister is completely legal. She did ‘win’ the election fair and square and formed a completely legitimate and constitutional government.

      Prime Ministers always make decisions a significant proportion of the population don’t like. Just because you didn’t vote her in, doesn’t mean she can’t govern.

      Besides, if we had an election we’d get Abbott as PM. You think he’d wind back the program? No chance.

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      • Bradley

        Remember you read it here first, folks. Idle Dad is tipping an Abbott win come the next federal election.

        Even he has lost the faith.

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      • Anonymous

        Exactly there would be way more of this crap with him. UGH if he gets voted in I am leaving the country.

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    • Anonymous

      We also didn’t vote for Tony Abbot. Since you know, we don’t have a Presidential style election.

      Sigh.

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  17. Anonymous

    I am really really against this and the teaching of RI in schools. if the RI in schools was all faiths fine, but it is only the christian and I can imagine it would not be very progressive.

    I can only think that julia is trying to keep the born-again and family firsts happy???? For votes?

    I am not against religion or spirituality but I do not trust chaplains, secular all the way please!!!!

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  18. Bradley

    Who knew that there were so many ways to waste the taxpayer dollar ? No doubt many more ways will be found. Deeply saddened that the government that lost it’s way is doing everything it can to remain that way. The gap widens, yet again.

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    • An Idle Dad

      Nice spin, Bradley. Who created the chaplaincy program?

      Are you suggesting a Liberal government would end this waste?

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      • Bradley

        I honestly do not know who created the chaplaincy program, nor am I suggesting that I have insider knowledge that a Liberal government would wind the program back. I am saying outright that the program is a waste of the taxpayer dollar and this government is darn good at wasting the taxpayer dollar. No spin intended, Idle Dad.

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        • Rick Morton

          For the record it was John Howard :)

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          • Bradley

            For all I care, it could have been Sir Robert Menzies ! :) The program is still a waste of taxpayer’s money.

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  19. Free Human Being

    Keep religion out of schools period!

    If you want religion for your kids, there are plenty of schools for you, but if you want counselling for kids, make it secular

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    • Anonymous

      I think this is the first time I’ve read a post of yours and thought ’100% agree’ ;-)

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    • Tali James

      I second Anon’s comment FHB – you’re right on the money with this one :)

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  20. Anotherview

    Disappointing that you have regurgitated the main stream media once again Mama Mia, really disappointing.

    If you scratched below the surface you could have provided us with a more balance article:
    1. Interview a Chaplain.
    2. Ask the principles, the great majority support the program.
    3. Ask the professional associations of physiologists/counsellors about the shortages in their profession and why so many of them won’t work in the school/government sector.
    4. Check out some of the job descriptions, many of them don’t comply with the guidelines and require the applicant NOT to “preach” etc.
    5. Check out the funding level per school – it is pretty dismal. Who will fund the gap between what they pay for the program and “higher level professionals”.
    6. Find out exactly what training (ongoing) that is required for the role of Chaplain.

    At the end of the day I would like to see a debate about what will happen to the CHILDREN if this program is abolished over a principle.

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    • Works with counsellors and psychologists

      Anotherview I can tell you for a fact that at the moment there is an over abundance of psychologists and many psychologists are having issues finding actual psychology positions.

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      • Anotherview

        We have been looking for one for 7 years in our region…will they travel? We have very poor access to any services, and we are in the major town, the outlying towns have no acess! In fact the education department in our state is encouraging study for teachers in psychology to fill the gap in schools. Is it case of the schools/gov sector looking for counsellors rather than psychologists?

        Many people assume that Chaplain’s are untrained, many have degree’s and the training is quite extensive, in fact more extensive that what the education department provides. Again a well researched article might have touched on this.

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        • Rick Morton

          The training is mostly in theology. And you’re still missing the point: $222 million could have been vastly better spent.

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          • Anonymous

            Totally agree that is a huge sum of money to waste on something that will not be a fit for all schools, and which could have been more wisely used, but chaplaincy training is A LOT more than just the theology aspect.

            Chaplains are getting a bad rap here because the government doesn’t know how to budget.

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    • sharonalger

      Our school doesn’t have a chaplain. My kid is happy. I’m happy. No one has ever said, ‘gee, I wish we had a chaplain!’ at our school. Nothing happens. The end.

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    • Bradley

      This commentor raises some good points. Although I’m not really in favour of the chaplaincy program, an interview with a chaplain to discuss the individuals qualifications etc would have been interesting.

      Have to agree with the point made about regurgitating the MSM. Things ARE starting to become a little bit “Who Weekly”. As you read the article you have this feeling of deja vu. Have I seen this in one of the tabloids or has Mia already covered the issue in one of her TV spots ?

      I recall that sometime in late December or early January, I was chastised by a reader who assured me that she and so many others came to this site to be made aware or issues that aren’t dealt with my the MSM. The reader responded to my airing disbelief that the Queensland floods had passed so many people by. Obviously, for some MM is their main source of information. But for the benefit of the many, is there any chance that we could go further afield that just the front page of the Sydney Morning Herald or The Courier Mail ?

      Even the micro presentations of well publicised books written by favoured contributors are becoming favourable although the “I loved your book so much that I read it all in one evening” responses are so predictable. So many interesting topics could be covered.

      Why is MM becoming the blog version of “The Today Show” ? Predictable, tabloid and with phonier smiles.

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      • Rick Morton

        That works when you’re discussing anything else. This is, however, news Bradley. And it’s my opinion on the news ;)

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        • Bradley

          I accept that point that you make.

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    • Kate

      I agree, Anotherview! These questions are vital to the issue, but aren’t being considered in any way by the media. All reporting on the issue is negative, while most principals (who are directly involved with the program) support the chaplaincy program.

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    • LadySarah

      I agree. I know of several chaplains that are formally trained, have never preached to students and just genuinely enjoy their job. I can’t believe people allow bias when it comes to people who actually want to help their children, regardless of religious affiliation.

      These are probably be the same people who will complain that there is a lack of support when their child hits their teens, or has low self confidence or experiences bullying in the playground.

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      • Anonymous

        Help my child how?

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        • LadySarah

          By supporting them.

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          • CaramelloKoala

            As I’ve said in another post- if there had been a chaplain at my school when I was being bullied and was suicidal, I wouldn’t have sought help. THANKFULLY, we had a plain old guidance councellor, and I did get help.

            I say this as someone whose mother tried to be “good” and send me to Sunday school etc (fat load of good that did… the Salvation Army minister who was supposed to be teaching us about God and goodness etc turned out to be a paedophile who had inapproriate dealings with a few of the 6 year olds in the class while his wife watched on…), who then wound up getting kicked out of a religous education class in year one (at a public school) for telling the visiting priest/minister that the Easter story was “stupid” and that no one dies and comes back to life after they die. Despite my mum’s well meaning efforts, I was well and truly born an atheist.

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            • sharonalger

              I’ve been very happy with the help and support
              given on the few times my daughter’s been
              bullied. So no, I don’t support chaplaincy,
              but I also am not whinging about lack of support

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  21. Arokh

    As far as I’m concerned a Chaplain is there to spread their religion. I once saw a chaplain and the “advice” they gave made things worse. I saw a professional counsellor and things are getting better. I’m sick and tired of religion coming into politics, when that happens you get the Taliban at the extreme level, which I can see happening here with Christians.

    Can a chaplain truely say they are non judgemental, when professionally counsellors are? Like Mia says what about the gay child? the pregnant teen? the non Christian child? I’ve seen how chaplains have counselled these kids (and have had to help pick up the pieces from these sessions). Frankly I’d rather the money be spent on professional counsellors (not teacher/counsellors we see now in NSW schools, but full clinical social workers or psychologists), and just have a provision for local religious leaders to visit the schools for those students who’d rather see a relgious person.

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  22. Anonymous

    We have a school chaplain at our public primary school and when I heard about it last year (when my son started kindergarten) I was thinking eeeh what a waste, but it is AMAZING! It reinforces social awareness, conflict solution, manners, kindness in a fun and interesting way. Our kids last year ate rice for a day to see what it felt like to be poor in a developing country. (and it raised money at the same time for world vision)
    They also put a song when the first bell goes every morning and by the end of the term all the kids know all the words and when my son sang me the song its all about being a good friend, helping your friends if they are going through a hard time etc.
    I think its a positive thing for our schools

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  23. kerrisackville

    Kids can be exceptionally challenging and complex creatures, and are faced with a variety of pressures on the home/school/social front. Adults working with kids need every ounce of training and expertise they can get. An untrained youth worker CAN cause harm if their advice/strategy is counter-productive. I think the chaplaincy program is an utter waste of our precious financial resources.

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    • Free Human Being

      Could today be the day people agree with free human being?

      ;)

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    • Bejf

      Whilst i see your point about not being trained, it really makes me think… what about parents? They are not trained and they have a lot more to do with a child’s development than a chaplain who may be lucky to see a child once a week if the school has more than 300 children in it.

      Im interested to know, is there something in particular that you would rather have the resources spent on?

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      • kerrisackville

        Wouldn’t it be great if parents were trained? God knows I wish my kids came with a manual and a few hours training. But they don’t, and we just have to stumble along, doing the best we can, which is why we need trained professionals supporting us when the going gets tough, not others just stumbling along with us in the dark.
        As to where the money should go… I don’t know. Healthcare? Trained counsellors in schools? Residential care for young adults with profound disabilities? And the list goes on…..

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  24. Benita (MissBenben)

    Rick, I’m not so sure about this one. You know I live out in woop woop, and we have just lost our school chaplain (retired due to bad health). I was approached to take over, and am still thinking about it. I’m not totally against your argument about trained professionals, but the problem is, trying to get trained professionals to come and live in outback rural isolated communities. It’s really hard! We can’t even get a permanent doctor or dentist, let alone school counsellors. What our community is trying to do, is to find a local person to fill the position, so that they are already known to the kids and they are active members of the community; two things that are really important out here in the bush. By getting a local person, instead of employing a trained professional, at least we are guaranteed that this person will be here for the long haul, because it’s an all too familiar tale out here that a lot of “trained professionals” come for 6 months, hate the place, and then leave. Aside from all that, our little school has just under 50 children, and we are only allocated 2 teachers plus a principal. Why would the government spend all that money on a trained counsellor for 45 kids when they won’t spend the money on an extra teacher?
    I’m quite certain that trained professionals have their place in schools. But I just wanted to write from our point of view out here. You can train as many professionals as you want, but getting them dispatched to remote, isolated, rural communities will be an issue.

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    • Anotherview

      Here here! Again its about the kids people!

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    • Rick Morton

      Fantastic point.

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    • Jecoro

      Dear Miss Ben Ben – effectively your school has 1 teacher per 16.5 students as in a school this size the principle would be expected to have about a .8 FTE teaching load? No doubt teaching a wider range of ages at one time can be difficult for some teachers – other teachers will confirm that many children thrive in classes with mixed ages.

      But my question is why do you think kids in your childrens school are entitled to more teachers?

      Many schools have a ratio of one teacher to 28 students with no teachers aid. (Often the ratios are even worse in private schools).

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      • Benita (MissBenben)

        Hi jecoro I don’t think the kids are entitled to more teachers, and that was kind of my point. Perhaps I didnt word it right. I was trying to point out that , because we are only a tiny school with two teachers and a teaching principal, I highly doubt that we would be allocated a trained professional counsellor, given our small numbers. I was also trying to explain that in our situation, a local chaplain would probably work better than a trained professional for a number of reasons.

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  25. Tali James

    I’m reminded of the old Jesuit maxim “Give me a child for his first seven years and I’ll give you the man”.

    I’m all for religious and spiritual freedom – and it’s for this very reason that I find the current “religionisation” of our public school system very, very worrying.

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  26. elishanarta

    I do think schools need chaplains! mainly because i think that counsellors do not care after office hours! they have a set time, a set place and every other time they’re not in office they are classed as unavailable. i find that with chaplains, they are there for students all day and everyday, i know of chaplains who give their personal number to students who are in need of help, and not just on the days that these chaplains are on duty. i find that students prefer talking to someone who can get down to their level, listening to what’s going on rather than having an adult saying do this and that, sometimes all students need is for someone to listen to them rather than suffocating them with information. and if there was abuse, pregnancy or other dangerous situations that children find themselves faced in, then chaplains should by care of duty inform the necessary people. so yeah i do think that the government spent some good money!!

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  27. Laws for Clouds

    I actually support the chaplain program.

    1. Many teens are confused about religion. While trained chaplains are generally Christians, people of any faith are generally reasonably knowledgeable about other faiths.

    2. Trained counselors would be better…they’d also be more expensive. I have friends who are chaplains who couldn’t get work without a counseling or youth work certificate, so I suspect you’re getting two for one. You can’t complain about where the money needs to be spent, then propose a more expensive alternative.

    3. I personally would like to have seen a psychologist, OT and speech therapist dedicated to each district. Teacher aides (in various forms) are reasonably easy to come by. Professional services are not. I have a special needs child so I’m familiar with the system.

    4. Counselors are available for free in the community. They have the power to refer onto psychologists and other professional services (and with the government funded mental health care plan this is free also). Parents, at some point, need to be aware of their children and not just expect school to be a one stop shop. Information about these services is freely and widely available, I got some pamphlets from the school chaplains office.

    5. If you’ve got a problem with the chaplain program, you can opt out.

    Ultimately I agree that secular counselors would be better, but more expensive and harder to come by.

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    • sharonalger

      Technically, it’s said we can opt our children out, but there is a lot of anecdotal evidence stating that despite families opting their children out, are still being approached with a view to convert. That’s what I have a problem with.

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      • Emma in Melbourne-land http://curatorofopinion.wordpress.com/

        i’m not sure anecdotal evidence is all that reliable and enough to support such claims with… perhaps a small minority of chaplains take it too an inappropriate level, but i have a long history with multiple chaplains throughout my education and have never experienced it. i don’t know of anyone who has either. i wish this issue would grow beyond the religion debate and that arguments could be presented, with evidence, that chaplains being in schools would be detrimental to children… brainwashing assumes that the chaplains are terrible people and children are unable to make their own decisions, i find that insulting.

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        • sharonalger

          Ok, well, if my anecdotal evidence is worth nothing, then neither
          is yours about your long history with chaplains, is it?

          Emma, when I was a kid, I was raised an atheist. My parents let
          me learn about christianity from 9 onwards. Having been
          threatened with hell, my parents going to hell, and all sorts of
          terrifying things, no, I didn’t feel I had a choice but to take on
          christianity out of sheer FEAR. I didn’t want to. I thought none
          of it made sense, but there was always that ‘what if you’re wrong
          and you go to hell?’ aspect that they were also so good at scaring us
          with.

          I will not allow my children to make that choice until they’re adults.

          And they can enjoy a happy, normal childhood. I’m happy to tell them
          what christians believe, but I will not ever allow them to be
          preached at as children

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          • Anonymous

            Wow, who taught you about Christianity? Totally respect your opinions and feelings from your experiences, but it’s amazing how one faith can be so severely and oppositely interpreted by different people. I was raised Christian and I learnt nothing of hell or fear, everything was centred around love.

            I guess it’s why everyone can have such polarising views about religion and in this case chaplains.

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            • sharonalger

              Who taught me? SRE at school (different
              schools, different SRE teachers from different
              churches), youth group as a teen, and various
              churches.

              In the end, I just wish I’d been left ALONE by
              these people! Sure, be my friend or whatever,
              but if I want to know, I’ll ask!

              There’ve been plenty of christians in my adult life who’ve
              told me I’ll be going to hell, I just don’t care what
              they say anymore.

              My daughter has come home from school with
              nightmares because she’s been told the devil
              will get her, and she’ll go to hell by kids at her
              old school. I can be friends with plenty of
              christians, the ones who just BUTT OUT and
              respect the beliefs of others

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            • Anonymous

              To reply below. Sorry that was kind of a rhetorical question. I was just shocked. I just didn’t realise people are still going around condemning others to hell. I thought most fear mongering Christians had died out (except maybe the Westboro Baptist Church :) but they’re really more of a cult anyway). Not all Christians are like that at all, I’m a Christian and I’ve only met one old man with fundamentalist views, but with your experiences I can see how you wouldn’t want Christian chaplains working in your child’s school.

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          • Emma in Melbourne-land http://curatorofopinion.wordpress.com/

            I’m certainly not saying your experiences and opinions are wrong, just that I feel your feelings towards the subject are being coloured by your own experiences. I have a real problem with denouncing an entire system because of a minority of bad cases. I understand that religious teachings used to be extreme, my parents tell me about it all the time usually when we’re making fun of religion, but the way in which religion is being taught has changed significantly. I attended a catholic primary school and rarely remember touching the bible, ethics classes were the go. the same at my anglican secondary school. I think it’s a positive thing for a child to be exposed to some religion and then be able to make decisions for themselves. There may be some terrible people out there who hide behind religion, but there are thousands more who are good, honest people wanting to do good, and I have been fortunate enough to meet a number of them. That’s all I’m saying, I hope I haven’t offended you, it wasn’t purposely done.

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            • sharonalger

              Of course my opinons are coloured by my
              experiences. Aren’t everyones? I don’t
              denounce others’ religions, but it’s not for
              my kids. I just believe in separation of church
              and state.

              I disagree with how SRE is taught in this day
              and age also. I’ve heard other parents’
              complaints with some pretty scary anecdotes
              given, I’ve listened to an SRE class in the past
              and felt it was inappropriate for what I’d
              want for my kids (I was in the library, and
              an SRE class was on)

              I see exposing my children to preaching of any
              kind as a huge negative. I don’t see why they
              need to make this decision as a kid, they can
              decide when they’re adults and a little more
              immune to manipulation.

              I know there are plenty of good christians, I
              have many who are good friends. I just raise
              my kids differently, and that’s all.

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        • Anonymous

          I don’t know of any evidence from within the schools regarding individual chaplains. The only evidence of breaching federal guidelines is from Access Ministries website and a speech given by it’s boss, talking about making disciples of the children.

          To me that is a completely ridiculous and medieval notion which I hope is not taken on board by any chaplains in schools.

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    • Anonymous

      I am really confused by this opting out business. How do you opt out from the chaplain program? Who decides? Does the principal have to fire him/her?

      I was only aware of opting out from scripture studies.

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      • Laws for Clouds

        My son’s school only got a chaplain this year, and when she started I had to sign a slip that gave her permission to work with my son. It is part of school enrollment form for schools that already have them.

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        • Anonymous

          Oh, thanks for the clarification.

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        • sparkycarolina

          Does your son then get help from a counsellor instead or nothing if you opt out?

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          • Laws for Clouds

            I think he gets nothing, but you would probably be advised that your child was having issues and told about what services you could get outside of school (there’s quite a lot available for free).

            Or you would have to seek them out yourself?

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            • sparkycarolina

              that is not ideal, but thanks for letting me know

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  28. Mumintheburbs

    I’m with Kristy. If I wanted religious education I could send my kids to a religious school. When I was in High School there was a non denominational scripture teacher who was paid for by local churches, but there was the option to not attend. Personally I think public schools should be completely secular, and that religion really has no place there.

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  29. Alyssa KT

    I agree with Rick; it seems very backward and wasteful to be spending so much money on something like this.

    When I was in (public) high school (’93-’97) we’d have Religious Education approximately 8 times per year. In place of another class. Typically they were male Christian surfers. Constantly they were obviously uneducated and unqualified.
    They could never answer any of our questions with anything remotely sensible. This was my favourite;
    Other student: “If God created the world in 7 days and that included humans, when did He create dinosaurs? And didn’t they exist at a different time to man?”
    Christian Surfer Dude: “There’s no proof dinosaurs ever existed.”
    Entire class (laughing): “What about the bones/fossils?!”
    Christian Surfer Dude: “They’re not real – they’re only a hoax.”

    Yeah… um…

    This is the public school system (in Qld) where parents do not select religious studies for their children, and yet the students’ actual education is replaced several times per year to be fed this ridiculous dribble.
    History has everything to do with education. Preaching doesn’t.
    We may as well have had 8 hour long classes on the virtues of the Easter Bunny.

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    • Monique

      I’m not angry with your comment,s just want to point out that as a Christian, we do believe Dinosaurs existed and that they have since died out!

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  30. Geordie

    5. Chaplains are non-denominational really, it says so in the guidelines!

    Trained counsellors are definitely non-denominational

    Are they? Michael Carr-Greg (of whom I’m no fan) is a child psychologist and religious, and appeared on Sunrise this morning much to the chagrin of the anti NSCP folks. There seems to be a perception that there’s an army of atheist psychogists out there ready to go, who will never allow their personal beliefs to get in the way of their job. And;

    6. They’re not harming anybody

    We’d be a lot safer spending the money on trained professionals. What will a chaplain say to that pregnant teenager? To the Muslim child? To the gay kid? To the girl or boy who wants to talk contraception?

    You’re inferring that a chaplain would be prejudiced against a pregnant teenager, a muslim, a kid who is same-sex attracted or a child who reveals they are sexually active. Not only is it not the case that all Christians have distaste for those not following their perception of their moral code, how do we ensure that counsellors are not homophobic, islamaphobic or judgemental? I don’t think the NSCP program is a good idea, but let’s not get carried away with the idea that intolerence and prosletysing are the sole domain of the religious, and atheists are even handed, tolerant and universally helpful.

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    • Rick Morton

      All true. But if the chances are the same everywhere, why chaplains? That’s the crux of the matter.

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    • sharonalger

      I don’t think anybody cares if a psychologist has their own religion. That’s a division between their personal life and their professional one. Big difference between that and a chaplain

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    • Emma in Melbourne-land http://curatorofopinion.wordpress.com/

      my thoughts exactly… i’m not religious at all but i attended a private anglican secondary school and the chaplains there were lovely. helpful to those that sought them out for guidance, for me, it was more they were nice people who joined in with a joke. i don’t agree with spending so much money on the NSCP program either, but let’s not paint a picture of intolerant fuddy-duddy’s.

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    • Meredith @ thinkthinks

      Good point, and you’re right we can’t ensure it – just as we can’t ensure that a teacher/football coach/person in general isn’t prejudiced in some way. But a secular (which does not mean atheist, but rather “separate from a religious governing body”) counselor would have to answer to an authority that does uphold the legal moral code should a complaint arise. Premarital sex is legal, homosexuality is legal, atheism is legal. A religious moral code (depending on the religion) may differ somewhat from these, and the authority of the chaplain would be the religious organisation they are affiliated with – so where would a complaint take us? (I don’t know the answer – it just doesn’t sit right with me).

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    • MelGardener

      Except the difference is that the psychologist or counsellor is not employed on the basis of their religion..whereas the Chaplain is.

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      • Geordie

        I’m unsure if that makes a material difference beyond the job interview. I’d suspect it doesn’t mean a thing on day one and beyond in the role.

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        • MelGardener

          It does make a difference if, as Rick points out above, the Chaplain guidelines say they are to teach to their religious beliefs.

          If you are a trained psychologist, it matters not what your personal beliefs are..they simply don’t come into the counselling session at all. If you are a Chaplain (of any faith) then the guidelines say that this faith is pertinent to the advice you are giving.

          Disclaimer: I’m assuming I’ve interpreted Rick’s explanation above correctly. Please tell me if this is incorrect.

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          • Rick Morton

            Just to be clear: they’re not allowed to preach, but in giving advice the guidelines say they understand (of course) that person would be giving advice based on their own faith and values. Different to preaching, but the advice could be skewed. Having said that, the case in Victoria has the body clearly aiming to ‘make disciples’ which is a little disconcerting!

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  31. Anonymous

    I dont think having chaplains V trained councillors in education is the true issue…i think it is the amount of money the government is throwing at the program.
    I believe $222 million could be spent in better areas.

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  32. meerkath

    I couldn’t agree more, it is a total waste and completely inappropriate. I am a practicing Catholic and my children go to Catholic Schools. I pay for that choice and am happy to do so. public Schools offer Scripture classes to those families who want them but I just cannot see a place for a Chaplain in a non religious school. I know Christianity preaches tolerance but unfortunately it seems that tolerance is only for those with the same beliefs, sadly. I would hate to be non Christian and being left with no alternative to approach a chaplain who may or may not berate you for your choice of religion, sexual orientation or sexual issues. It’s just appalling and I sticks in my throat that Julia, an atheist, would agree to this. Don’t get me wrong, I am a HUGE Julia fan precisely because of her beliefs but this just beggars belief:(

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    • meerkath

      Oh, and at the Catholic High School my daughter will be attending next year……even they don’t have a chaplain, the school counsellor is not clergy and a fully qualified independent counsellor.

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    • Anonymous

      thanks meerkath – I too have my children in the catholic system, very happily, and totally agree with your sentiments. Independent counsellors are definately what is required, not chaplains.

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    • chocolate aeroplane

      Well said Meerkath… glad to hear that point-of-view from a practising Catholic. I’m not religious but I’m in the process of looking at private secondary school options for my daughters and I’m actually finding the Catholic ones are seemingly more broad-minded about the religion that is taught – one in particular has religion as a compulsory part of their curriculum but they teach ‘all the religions of the world’ and do not focus on any particular religion or have compulsory scripture classes. I really want my girls to learn about all religions and accepting that different people believe different things but I don’t think a purely Christian focus is going to do this for them – despite the fact that many of the Christian values are good values – like you I think it is, in some cases, only good advice to those that believe the same thing.

      It is really hard to find a private school that does not have religious teaching or preaching which is incredibly frustrating. This is now going to make it even harder if it’s introduced to the public system.

      I too am a Julia fan and I’m a little disappointed by this.

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      • meerkath

        I know at my daughters primary school we have a lot of Eastern Orthodox kids, and at her HS next year I was told my some teachers that some kids are Muslim, which is great. I guess that by HS they don’t so much teach “Religion” ie Catholisicm but more morals/values overall but introducing kids t different topics and letting them research and find their own opinions. For example, as part of my daughters Year 6 HSIE they got to choose an aid agency of their choice, research and present it. This coincided with Lent so it was religious teaching in a way A’s it taught awareness of world poverty etc at the same time as encouraging charity/mission week. I have never found our Catholic School to be preachy, my husband is not Catholic but is more than happy for our kids t g to Catholic schools. I think A’s long A’s you are aware about what they are taught, and discuss it with your child, it seems t work for us- we offer alternative viewpoints to encourage thought and discourse. Good luck on your search for a good school x

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  33. Cranky parent

    I agree Rick, funding more chaplains in schools should not be a priority right now.

    And I can’t believe that the government took money away from the family courts to do this – there are so many self-represented litigants in family courts and other lower courts becuase more and more people cannot afford adequate representation but do not qualify for legal aid. These people need court staff to help them and printed materials so they know what to do. Government money fund this. If Swan and Gillard took even 10 minutes at their local Family Court or magistrates court on any day of the week they would know this.

    Do you know what I would like to see in our public schools? Get rid of the rules that say that teachers are not allowed to discpline or even touch students. Allow teachers to actually punish bad behaviour. Allow Principals to suspend or expel students who break the rules repeatedly. Make uniforms compulsory. Make a levy from each family compulsory each year – either in time spent helping at the school or in money. As it currently stands, students must be committing criminal acts before they can be properly disciplined and it shouldn’t be allowed to go on like this. Kids run many of our public schools, not teachers. And the poor teachers can’t do anything about it.

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    • sharonalger

      Are you saying you’re for corporal punishment? If so, I disagree with that. Most of your other points, I agree with:)

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      • Cranky parent

        Not at all.

        I don’t agree with corporal punishment at all. My brothers happened to go to a school where they recieved the cane for misbehaviour and I’ve always disagreed (strongly) with this approach.

        I do agree with a strong discipline culture in schools and in punishments such as detention, cleaning up around the school, making apologies and amends for wrong acts. Consequences for bad behaviour is the point of this. At the moment there is very little of that in the public school system.

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  34. Lola

    I’m so glad you posted this Rick. We expect qualifications from teachers, nurses, doctors but not chaplains who could be swaying impressionable youths with talk about fictitious Gods, virgin births and a Bible that was written 300 years after the events? What happened to free, compulsory and SECULAR education? Was that not the foundation of our fantastic education system back in 1901? I am an atheist (obviously) and would not want my child being exposed to a chaplain.

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  35. Appledapple

    Missing the mark, Rick. Chaplians play a different role from the professionals and I would love to see more federally funded professionals in the schools as well as chaplains. The presumption is that theses professionals will always give the best advice and non secular advice and this is not always the case. Remeber chaplains are not all Christian as other religions also have chaplains in schools. Perhaps there could be a closer monitoring of chaplains if that keeps worried parents happy. The key thing is the the chaplain is visited by CHOICE and that is not the case with others in the school who are often seen on a student referal basis As an agnostic I would hate to see the chaplains role disappear. As to funding it…if you take the Queensland high court case to the logical conclusion( aside from the fact the law is not always logical!) there will be no defence force chaplains or police chaplains or for that matter federally funded private religious schools where students have to attend church at least once a week and sometimes every day and religious instruction is taught. This is a blurring of state and church monies after all is it not? Personally I say keep the chaplains and private schools can fund themselves but that is another debate!

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    • Rick Morton

      Great comment. I agree with you; the difference about chaplains elsewhere (in the police force or army) is that those chaplains are dealing with free-thinking adults and not impressionable children.

      And of course, chaplains may do a different job but they should be funded by the relevant church / mosque etc. Not by this Government. I just can’t see they do a job that is significantly different from the other support staff that would warrant the $222 million spend.

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    • Meredith @ thinkthinks

      It’s the CHOICE bit that bothers me – that kids will not choose to seek help from a chaplain for particular problems simply because they are a chaplain from a particular denomination that does not gel with their own beliefs (of lack of them). What happens to those kids?

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  36. LJ

    I don’t normally disagree with you Rick, but I have to ask, what about the kids who might actually want some guidence from a religious perspective? Not every child/teenager who wants it comes from a religious family, or necersarrily goes to church and can easily seek it elsewhere. Also, not every family who is Christian can afford the cost of a private Christian education.

    Also, it bothers me how you keep referring to chaplains as untrained – they might not have the same training as a clinical psychologist (though there is no guaruntee that counsellors do either, the term ‘counsellor’ can be quite misleading), but a good friend of mine is a high school teacher and is currently completing a certificate in chaplaincy on the side, so there is actually an element of training.

    Also, I really disagree that we’d be ‘safer’ only with ‘trained counsellors’. When I was 15 I was diagnosed as having depression and was using cutting my wrist as a means to ‘cope’ with all that I was feeling (or not feeling). I saw a very qualified psychiatrist who literally laughed at me when I told him about it, and he said I was no different to any other teen out there – get over it, and that was pretty much all the help he offered me. This was a man who had been a psychiatrist for longer than I’d been alive.

    I know I’ll probably be in the minority here, but yes, I think chaplains have a place.

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    • sharonalger

      There’s always church for those who seek it. Costs nothing too

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      • sharonalger

        I’d also like to add to that: if my children are under 18 and going to
        school, I DON’T CARE if they want to seek religious guidance. I am the
        parent, I make the choice, they will not be allowed until they are adults
        and can choose for themselves.

        I believe it will do my children harm, and that is my right as a parent to
        protect my children as I see fit. I have no problem with Christians, if that’s
        what floats your boat, I’m happy for you. But my children will NOT be preached to, I think it’s bad for them

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        • LJ

          This is my reply for the above comment, as there is no ‘reply’ button showing any more.

          There are most certainly kids out there looking for religious guidence who haven’t come from religious homes. I was one. My parents never took me to church, or really talked about God. If anything, the times we spoke about church were my father telling us stories of him being raised in a very strict Catholic home in the ’50s and ’60s.

          I didn’t know anyone who was openly religious until I was 16, and there was a new girl in my class (in public highschool) who was openly Christian. After being friends with her for about 18 months I went along to Youth Alive (a massive Christian concert) and started going to youth services at her local church. My parents didn’t stop me, but they certainly didn’t jump on the bandwagon either.

          It was a pretty weird time, I wasn’t exactly going against my parents’ wishes, but seeing as we weren’t a religious family it would have been nice to have someone not directly involved in my church (ie, a chaplain) to talk to about my faith and ask questions.

          In regards to you thinking churches are just out to gather numbers, I’m guessing you’ve had a bad experience or something which has tainted your veiw – I’ve no doubt some churches can come across like that, but there are also churches out there who are not just there to ‘convert’, they do actually care, and are there to help you get to know God and grow to know Him better, but it’s all your choice.

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          • sharonalger

            But see, that’s the point, you still got what you
            wanted without a chaplain, didn’t you? There are
            friends at school, books, etc.

            Yes, I have been tainted, lol. But the thing is, when
            you’re raised an atheist (I’m not an atheist now, my
            eldest daughter is, my younger 2 are too young to have
            an opinion or knowledge about this stuff), you can really
            see when you’re being manipulated by these people.

            I see religious types try to make manipulative ‘grabs’ (
            (figuratively speaking) at my daughter, like she’s the
            golden egg, not religious at all. Almost like, whoever
            could convert her would be the ‘ultimate’ christian LOL

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      • LJ

        Yes, there are churches, but for kids/teens who don’t come from ‘churchy’ homes, finding a suitable, supportive church can be a bit of a minefield. Where the heck do you start if you aren’t sure what you’re looking for? To me it makes sense to have a person within high schools, even if they are only in the school for a few hours each week, to give kids access to resources and answer any questions they simply might not have anyone else to ask if thier parents or friends aren’t openly religious.

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        • sharonalger

          They could always buy a bible?

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          • LJ

            Have you ever tried to read the bible without any kind of guidence? Besides, the idea of simply throwing literature at a teen who is interested in something so complex seems a bit thoughtless to me. “Your child is confused about thier sexuality? We have a pamphlet for that. Problem solved.”

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            • sharonalger

              Can I just say, I find it very hard to believe
              that there are that many kids out there who’ve
              been raised without religion who want to get
              religious guidance?

              Sorry, but this smacks of simply wanting to
              convert heathens to increase numbers.

              When are churches going to learn that our
              ‘poor little athiest children’ are not open
              slather for them to feel good about
              themselves, or boost their numbers?

              Anyway, so we have bibles they can buy,
              they can go to church. You say this is all too
              hard. I disagree. I just think people want to
              brainwash kids who are actually perfectly
              HAPPY going along without religion

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        • MelGardener

          Kids are curious about a lot of things but it’s not the government nor our secular school’s job to provide exposure to every thing kids *might* want to follow up at a later stage.

          I went through a stage in high school where I thought I might want to be a vegetarian (no, it didn’t last too long) so should it be the government’s job to provide me with access to resources and someone to answer my questions about this lifestyle choice? My family was/is not vegetarian, nor were any of my friends so I didn’t have anyone else to ask.

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    • Rick Morton

      All good points. If a teenager wants guidance from a religious perspective and schools agree with their community they want a chaplain in the school, awesome. Go for it. But let the church pay for it. There’s no reason our Government should be spending $222 million on it…especially when so much was cut in this budget. Especially when the Govt only did it to ensure votes before the election :)

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    • Emma in Melbourne-land http://curatorofopinion.wordpress.com/

      I agree LJ – chaplains do have their place, in my time as a student they were a positive presence. and not preachy. i think it’s disappointing that people’s personal feelings towards the church colour their opinions, what is so terrible about children being exposed a little to religion? i was and i didn’t turn out religious, i couldn’t be less so. but i understand that religion brings happiness to a lot of people and it really is an individual choice to make. i have never come across a preachy chaplain and i actually preferred my schools chaplains to the counsellors because the counsellors were so…judgemental. judgemental or bored, here’s a pamphlet go on your way.

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  37. Anonymous

    My colleague is completing a chaplaincy course. She is loving it so much and will probably end up providing support in disaster relief situations.

    I think she’ll do a tremendous job, but then again she already has a degree in psychology… so maybe she’s the exception, not the rule.

    But I don’t really see the point of Chaplains in schools when secular counsellors are a perfectly fine choice.

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  38. RosiePosie

    I only have 2 things to point out in favour of school chaplains:

    (1) School Chaplains self-adhere to a higher authority (that is God) so that they are bound by their faith to live by LOVE.
    This means that they would NOT be all high and mighty with school children not of their faith. It is not within their belief system to put down a teenager thinking of sex for the first time, or a Muslim child or whatever scenario you want to throw at them. To put it bluntly, they are delicate and loving and are regulated strictly by their faith – where do trained counsellors draw the line? Wherever their personal belief system lies. What makes them stop snide comments? Professionalism? This is not as trustworthy a standard.

    (2) As much as we tote the secularism of our society, our Constitution is founded on Christian beliefs and, thus are the laws of our land.
    Don’t believe me? Go ask a Constitutional law expert.

    I say, give it a go. It has worked for the last 3 years with positive results.

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    • sharonalger

      Here’s one of many articles about how people involved in this program are stepping over the line: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/05/13/3215690.htm?site=melbourne

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    • Rick Morton

      But still…do we need to spend $222 million on them when we need teacher aides for special needs students more? Or more money spent on medical research? Or just putting counsellors in there instead? There’s no obvious need for chaplains. The schools have those support services covered elsewhere.

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    • Meredith @ thinkthinks

      I beg to differ – I think professionalism is definitely as trustworthy a standard – a vocation does not need to come from God.
      Not to mention love, compassion and humanity are not exclusive to those of faith.

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    • Lola

      A higher authority is God? So he’s overseeing their work is he and giving them feedback? You may as well tell me that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are real. Christianity does not have a loving history (or present day) to be proud of. I give you examples of not letting women have an equal role in the church, discrimination of gay people and let’s not forget rampant paedophilia.

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    • WillaWay

      Where is the evidence for positive results?

      There’s lots of evidence that $222 million would help lots of children with disabilities who are struggling with achievement at school, foster children and families, children struggling with mental health issues. Where is the evidence that chaplains are having any positive effect on individuals or school communities?

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    • May

      Our constitution may have been “founded on Christian beliefs”, however we live in a generally secular country and the constitution states that “the Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth”. This program seems to me to contradict this. The only way to be employed as a chaplain is to pass some sort of religious test, and also, placing chaplains in schools seems to me to be imposing religious observance simply through the fact that the chaplains will be imposing their religious beliefs on school children, who are much more impressionable than adults and have the right to be protected and to choose whether or not they would like to believe in any god and to not have others beliefs shoved down their throat.

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  39. emmasbrain

    I certainly think that religion has a place in the school system, as long as it is optional. Sadly for some of these children, it can be the only form of moral guidence provided to them. However I feel it is a question of relevance. My eldest son returned from religious studies and informed us that music was the devils way of distracting us from god, I strain to see the benefits of such preaching. A shake up is certainly needed.

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    • RosiePosie

      I think that religious studies teacher should be sacked! And again, this is a religious studies teacher, not the school chaplain!

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      • Meredith @ thinkthinks

        Sacked or sent back to the little town from Footloose. :)

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  40. Michelle Higgins

    I have enough issues with the scripture in schools program in NSW public schools let alone chaplains. It is outrageous. Excellent points. Our school psychologist was excellent as were teacher aides for kids with special needs. Increasing the hours of both of these groups would do far more to help children, all children.

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    • Anonymous

      What’s wrong with scripture classes in schools when it’s completely optional and funded by the volunteers and their place of worship?

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      • Lulu

        Anonymous, if they’re providing it free, I’m still suspicious – there is no such thing as a free lunch.

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        • Anonymous

          My mum teaches scripture to a handful of students at a local public school, there are also other scripture teachers from different faiths too.

          There is a ‘curriculum’ per se for the different age groups. She receives the workbooks from the church and any sort of visual aids or smiley face stickers etc she buys herself.

          There should be absolutely no cost for the child or the school, the children miss out on about half an hour of their regular class, and that’s by choice of the parents.

          PS In my personal opinion it’s all free because the church has a vested interest in keeping followers

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          • sharonalger

            Except for those of us who choose not to send our
            kids to scripture, and can’t get ethics classes. Our
            kids’ time is wasted, and that’s not our choice. But
            we digress:P

            Edited to answer Anon below: no, it’s policy that they aren’t allowed to give non SRE kids an unfair advantage by teaching them anything.

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            • meerkath

              That’s another issue, but a valid one. Scripture is provided by the local churches, to my knowledge, whereas ethics classes would need to be provided by the actual school, and therefore government funding. I would have preferred money to to that rather than chaplains personally:)

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            • Anonymous

              Really? Good teachers won’t let that time go to waste. As a kid I would have been pretty happy with half an hour of free time/colouring once a week anyway :)

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            • Mel

              Yes – that’s correct – under the legislation children who opt out of SRE are not allowed to be instructed on ANYTHING else during that half hour period. If you’re going to spend $222 million in this area of education then secular Ethics classes would be a better place to spend it. To my mind there are infinitely better ways to spend $222 million in education. How about teacher’s aides, better access to timely reading assessment and support, smaller class sizes for older grades….the list goes on.

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        • meerkath

          Don’t be. Our local scripture classes are run by volunteers from the local church. It’s completely voluntary, free, they only miss one class of “regular” schooling and it’s good for parents who can’t afford, or choose not t attend, the local huge Catholic school. Their kids join in at First Communion etc without any discrimination. It’s not brainwashing if it’s a choice.

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  41. wasabi

    I am sick of the noisy, hysterical religious mob always getting their own way. In a country as culturally diverse Australia, where there is a clear line between church and state, it is hypercritical to have representatives from one type of religion in schools. Am all for trained counsellors, think it is a wonderful idea. Chaplains? You’ve got to be kidding. It is bad enough that my daughter has to sit through scripture each week [ethics classes aren't on offer at her school but I have my fingers crossed they will be i the future]. Am a huge fan of Ms Gillard but this funding decision is a massive mistake.

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    • sharonalger

      Hi wasabi, did you know you can opt your child out of scripture classes? I do that with my daughter. NSW has won the ethics classes battle, but our school is too small to benefit from it.

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      • Mumsy

        Any school can have an ethics class – as long as they have a volunteer who will be trained to deliver the ethics currculum. And yes – opt out has to be made available in all schools.

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        • sharonalger

          You need a certain minimum of students for a class, though, and
          our total school size is under 50 kids, lol.

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    • meerkath

      Why is she in scripture class then? It’s voluntary so if you don’t like religion being preached at her then she doesn’t have to be there. I’m confused?
      Ps yes I amCatholic, I’m not a god botherer and I send my kids t Catholic School, my choice and I pay for it. If I sent by kids to State school and wasn’t religious there is no way I would send them to scripture class.

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  42. Meredith @ thinkthinks

    Thank you for this article, Rick. A lot of the articles and commentary I have been reading about the chaplaincy program funding have been looking at schools SRE or scripture which is NOT what this is about. (That’s a whole different kettle of fish, mostly because it is a voluntary program, not a federal funding issue.)

    My issue with the chaplaincy program is that kids who are not of a particular faith or of a different faith to the chaplain may feel disinclined to seek help from someone who they perceive as having a particular reason behind their advice. The issues you mention – issues with sex and sexuality in particular – are the big ones, but even a kid being bullied or just someone needing some help with getting their head around school and life – may not feel comfortable going to someone they believe will just give them the big “God talk”. I’m not saying that’s all chaplains would do, but just that it’s how some kids would see it.

    I also think it is naive to expect a religious chaplain to ignore their faith when attempting to advise young people. And it’s wrong to ask them to do so. People have faith for a reason – they believe it! And of course they are going to want to help a young suffering person to benefit from faith just as they did. In the case of many, it’s not that they are doing it in an insidious way (although the comments from Access Ministeries show that certainly some feel that way) but simply because they think they are helping. But it is inappropriate and wrong for this to be happening in our public schools.

    As for “Values” – they already teach this at schools – with great secular programs like Values Education and Rock & Water (to name two that I have come in contact with).

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    • Rick Morton

      Great comment! You’re perfectly right. It’s wrong to ask or expect chaplains to refrain from talking about their faith. And that’s fine, but they shouldn’t be doing it in our schools. The churches and mosques and synagogues can do that on their own time, with whomever so chooses to go there and talk about it :)

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  43. sharonalger

    I agree, it’s not right. There was an article recently (wish I could remember the link) about the Aus Psychiatrist or psychologist board (or something like that) where they explained why chaplains in schools actually do a lot more harm than good.

    More counsellors are needed, why can’t we fund that?

    Also, there is a lot of anecdotal evidence on the net to show just how many chaplains are stepping over the boundaries of appropriate behaviour. Non-religious families ARE being targetted for conversion, whether they’re allowed to or not. As a non-religious parent raising my children this way, this is highly offensive to me, and alarming. I send my children to public school so that they may have freedom from religion.

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    • lucy-loo

      I agree entirely!
      The case in Victoria is frightening – nothing like brainwashing a 5 year old.

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      • sharonalger

        Yes. There’s also been some bad stuff happening in the Illawarra too, apparently

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  44. MelGardener

    I am strongly opposed to Chaplains in schools for all the reasons you’ve outlined. Counsellors, psychologists and psychiatrists go through years of training so they can deal with whatever comes at them…Chaplains do not.

    If my child was suicidal or in desperate need of help I know whom I’d choose for them to talk to. Chaplains are just not equipped to deal with this role and could easily do more harm than good.

    We already have the problem of scripture class in schools – where the non-scripture-attending children basically twiddle their thumbs for 45 minutes – this will only add to the insinuation of religion into our state schools.

    Also – I will point out that most private schools have BOTH a Chaplain AND a school counsellor available for students, ie. they see that each fulfills a certain role.

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  45. kristy

    If I wanted my kids to go to a religious school I wouldn’t be sending them to a public school!! That money should definitely be spent elsewhere either with counsellors at school or maybe just improving education?

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  46. LadySarah

    A lot of these chaplains are actually qualified in some respect, and this could be anything from a Cert IV in Pastoral care right up to a Bachelor of Theology. Yes, I agree that may be not satisfactory that a Theologian is in a school, but numerous chaplains are youth workers etc, that happened to have Christian based curriculum from a lot of accredited Bible colleges.

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    • sharonalger

      I personally would prefer the funding go towards qualified counsellors

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      • Emma in Melbourne-land http://curatorofopinion.wordpress.com/

        from my experience as a person that attended a school with both counsellors and chaplains, the chaplains were better. less judgemental, more prepared to listen instead of jumping to conclusions. i know this is an isolated example, but from my experience (as a non religious person) chaplains are a positive influence in the school environment. and not once did any of the school chaplains preach to us. and they were more qualified than the counsellors, many having been trained as teachers for example.

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        • sharonalger

          But what do you have to say about all the bad stuff in the press
          as well? That can’t be ignored

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          • Emma in Melbourne-land http://curatorofopinion.wordpress.com/

            bad stuff in the press? i’m studying journalism, and this year will complete my degree, and every lecture/tutorial we are exposed to supposedly reliable media writing articles based almost entirely on press releases and incredibly limited research. the media is a powerful tool for information but it is not without bias. having said that, of course some ‘bad stuff’ happens, it happens in all areas. but it’s the minority… you can’t judge a whole group by the acts of less than a handful…

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  47. Secular society please

    Yet another reason to be disappointed/put off by this government.

    We are a SECULAR society where Church and State are separated accordingly.

    School Chaplains are well-meaning but they are NOT trained, they can NOT deal with the issues that children face and there underlying ‘find God’ message has NO place in the school system today.

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    • Danni

      The Howard govt created the program. You may be unhappy with this govt for a whole range of reasons, but rest assured on this issue, there is definite bipartin support. I think you’d probably find the opposition supported it even more strongly than this one.

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      • Secular society please

        You’re right, what I should say is that it should not be SUPPORTED by this current government, let alone it be such an important issue that it is specifically raised by Wayne Swann in his budget speech.

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    • Danni

      bipartisan* sorry phone being dodgy.

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