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chaplains1 News: School chaplains are now illegalSchool chaplains are back in the news again today. In a win that could have come straight from “The Castle”, one Queensland dad has taken the Federal Government all the way to the High Court in Canberra – and won.

It’s about a whole lot more than the vibe though – because this case has concrete ramifications. It could potentially invalidate large chunks of existing federal legislation.

In his case, Queensland dad Ronald Williams argued that the Federal Government program, which funds chaplains in schools breached constitutional protections of religious freedom.

Although that claim was dismissed, the High Court did find that the Commonwealth Government does not legally have the power to use consolidated revenue (which is essentially just a fancy name for the Government’s day-to-day bank account) to fund the chaplaincy program.

Our Attorney-General Nicola Roxon is determined to find a way around the decision and has committed to keeping the chaplains in their jobs. However this decision also sets a precedent that could apply to other Government programs. In the future we may well see more challenges coming from interest groups who don’t like the way Government money is spent on arts or sports programs, for example.

The appropriateness of funding for chaplains in schools is a debate that has divided the opinions of Mamamia readers in the past. But this legal decision, coupled with today’s census results, that reveal the proportion of Australians who have ‘no religion’ is rising – the argument for chaplains in schools is weakening.

Here is what one of our former writers, Rick, penned previously:

You see, the Australian Government spends $222 million on putting chaplains in schools across the country. Not school counsellors or guidance officers or more support staff for disabled students. Chaplains.

There’s no doubt about it – many chaplains are lovely, dedicated individuals. Some have families. Some don’t. But in a secular country, in a time of apparently tough budget measures, spending $222 million on extending the chaplaincy program into 2014 is way off the mark.

Chaplains are not trained professionals. And for the most part they represent just one faith.

Here’s an excerpt from the program guidelines:

“While the key tasks of a school chaplain will vary depending on the needs of individual schools and their communities, they could include, but would not be limited to: assisting school counsellors and staff in the delivery of student welfare services; supporting students to explore their spirituality; providing guidance about spiritual, values and ethical matters; and facilitating access to the helping agencies in the community, both religious-based and secular.”

The helping students explore their spirituality part all seems very nice if, as the program says they must, chaplains only do so with students who want to, and parents who give their permission. But that isn’t always the case.

Have a look at this, from ABC online:

“The religious organisation that provides chaplains to Victorian schools appears to have breached federal guidelines that forbid it from trying to convert children.

Access Ministries provides chaplains to 280 Victorian schools and 96 per cent of special religious education classes…. The national school chaplaincy code of conduct, which every chaplain must sign, stipulates they should not take advantage of their privileged position to try to convert children to their religious belief or denomination.

But on its website, the boss of Access Ministries outlines a strategy to “make students disciples.”

When you consider that part of a Chaplain’s work description is to offer ‘support and guidance about ethics, values, relationships, spirituality and religious issues’, the kind of advice being given out to a pregnant teenager, a teenager contemplating sexual intercourse for the first time, a gay teenager and so on is alarming.

So there we have it. A political fix for a political problem, and schools miss out on $222 million that could have been better spent. Imagine how many desperately needed teacher aides $222 million could have funded. There are arguments for the chaplains in schools but they’re easily rebuked. Let’s try.

1. Chaplains are good friends for students.

So are trained counsellors.

2. Chaplains are a shoulder to lean on and provide good advice.

So do trained counsellors.

3. Chaplains help support staff and parents too.

So do trained counsellors.

4. Chaplains aren’t allowed to preach so they’re OK.

Neither are trained counsellors. Also, refer to the case in Victoria mentioned above.

5. Chaplains are non-denominational really, it says so in the guidelines!

Trained counsellors are definitely non-denominational. Also, refer to the case in Victoria.

6. They’re not harming anybody.

We’d be a lot safer spending the money on trained professionals. What will a chaplain say to that pregnant teenager? To the Muslim child? To the gay kid? To the girl or boy who wants to talk contraception? The kind of safe, considered and reasonable advice can be given by a counsellor. Not by a chaplain.

The arguments go on and on but the bottom line is this: chaplains do nothing that trained professionals could not in a support role. If you’re serious about why kids need support, you’d hire counselors.

If you need to buy votes, however, well there’s a chap for that.

Do you think the Government should be funding chaplains in schools? Does your child attend a school with a chaplain? If you has $222 million to spend on schools education, what would you fund?

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479 Comments so far

  1. Peter

    and of course we would rather spend that $222 million on trained counsellors wouldn’t we ?……….yeah right !

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  2. mel

    There are always going to be people disagreeing on issues such as these. There was a comment earlier saying that Chaplains are untrained. That is not true. There is training available now for Chaplains, and their role is very different to social workers and counsellors so people need to stop comparing them. If a Chaplain is not working within their role doing what they are supposed to, then that is that individual Chaplain, not all Chaplains are the same. Not all counsellors are the same either and not all do what they are supposed to either. NO ONE IS PERFECT. There is positives and negatives in all jobs. A true Chaplain will not force their belief or preach to anyone unless the person asks for spiritual guidance.

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  3. Anonymous

    Angry atheists love a good rant, don’t they. Their faith in hedonism while openly and quite obnoxiously criticising other religions is such a pretty sight.

    Basic morals teach us to accept and respect other people’s beliefs and remove a personal agenda to bash others simply because they worship a god or higher power. All people in society worship something – and most are narcissistic who worship themselves.

    So keep the article on topic and what it’s really about – not how useless or “religious” chaplains are, but about federal funding. It may be channelled in more effective ways, but if the preference is for a trained psychologist, you’re looking at a lot of tax payer’s money (i.e. you) – about three times amount the cost of chaplains.

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  4. Neil Richardson

    It’s clear to me that latent paedophiles join religious organizations in the expectation of realizing their deviant fantasies. The chaplaincy program seems to be a free kick to these people.

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  5. Michael

    Does you realize if they made them trained counsellors you would have to triple that 200 million, only do a third of the schools or get trained counsellors to do it for $35 000? 

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  6. amd

    Religion, as was succinctly stated previously, does not belong in public schools. That is irrefutable. Religion has nothing to do with god, is simply a man-made construct trying to make sense of the universe. Those ethical parts in religion came from our own common sense and the basic desire of most people to live in a peaceful society. People invented religion, and all the good and bad things that come from it are our own invention. Religious belief in no way makes a person more or less ethical or moral and every person should be judged on their behaviour, regardless of their religious stance. Freedom OF religion is also freedom FROM religion. And once again, religion does not belong in public schools. Ethics, certainly. Psychologists or Counsellors have a place there. Chaplains do not.

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  7. Guest

    I’m in high school. Our school is a multi-cultural school, and we pride ourselves on that, so why do we have a Christian Chaplain. I’m christian, but there is a large percentage of the student body who are not. It’s not right for them to have to follow this guy’s advice. We need a counsellor to help us, not a man of God. Our Chaplain said a prayer on our ANZAC day assembly, and I know it was a nice touch and everything, but it wasn’t only Christian people who lost relatives in wars. What about the Jewish or Muslim children in our school who lost their relatives? They didn’t get a special prayer for those who died. In my opinion, if we’re going to put religion into the public school system, then put in religion for everybody, not just the majority of students. The majority should not overpower the rights of the minority to follow their own faith.

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  8. anon

    religion has no place in the public school system. end of story.

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  9. Tracy

    Maybe it would be a good idea, when all your kids get home from school today if you ask THEM to read this story and reply for THEMSELVES? I bet we’d get A LOT more sense.. comments worth reading.. without bias.. without hang ups… much more interesting…

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    • Lots of younger readers of MM are speaking from experience with the system.

      But yes, just because a program helped your child, doesn’t mean they weren’t trying to introduce religion either.

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  10. Cath

    I’m in an interesting place on this one…

    On one hand, my brother works as a school chaplain in a rural community. He has become a rock for that community, from his first week when he had to perform a funeral service for a young lad who had committed suicide. From my understanding, the school community chose to have a chaplain work there and help support him. He is a qualified youth minister as well as spending many years working with young people in a variety of roles.

    On the other hand, I don’t believe that public schools should be advocating one religion over another… that is the role of the family and the religious community they may choose to be a part of. I know of schools that have a Christian chaplain, when over 30% of the school community comes from an Islamic background. Where is the Muslim chaplain? Surely those students have the right to have spiritual guidance in the religion of their upbringing.

    I recognise that our community, laws etc have been founded on “Christian” values and I believe that has provided a very solid foundation for our society. I firmly believe that young people need a “safe” adult who is not their parent to turn to when things get a big tough, and that every school should have someone on staff just for this purpose. I also agree with those people below who have pointed out that if all chaplains were replaced with trained counsellors (whether or not they work outside of hours) there would be far fewer of those “safe” adults available for kids who need someone.

    Although I grew up in a religious household and even went to Catholic primary school, I have chosen for my own child not to participate in religious education at school (especially considering the current move towards fundamentalism in many Christian churches today). We have decided to tackle “spirituality” in our own way (with some additional, sometimes conflicting, input from grandparents!)

    I think it should be up to the school to decide which form this should take (chaplain or counsellor) based on their ability to fund the program from their budget (which I think is how this program currently runs???). Every government school has to make compromises about how they spend their allocated funds. Every government school has a shortfall made up with fundraising…

    Solution: More funding for student wellbeing… full stop!

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  11. Good. I definitely think we should be providing more jobs to trained professionals than to those only trained in religion, especially in our public school system.

    I graduated from highschool last year so have firsthand experience with chaplains. They can be very preachy about religion during their “sessions”. Even if they aren’t actively preaching it, they have religious posters around their office and hand out religious prizes or flyers to church events.

    I don’t think anybody could argue that that’s moral in a public school where people of all religions and non-believers go to learn language, math, and science.

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  12. BRIAN

    One has to presume that “chaplaincy” is about teaching religious principles. This seems to be OK if ALL religious principles are taught without advocacy or prejudice. Since the God principle is a total unknown, and the concept varies with an individual’s experience and upbringing, it would appear to be a waste of resources trying to expose this principle to a child, outside its family and cultural background. To do so is called proselytising. Since there are myriad beliefs and cultures in our society, to try to favour one is an unacceptable endeavour, especially at public cost, and smacks of religious intolerance.

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  13. LM

    Haven’t read MM for awhile. Scrolling through the comments below, a number of people say they miss Rick. Has Rick left MM??? If so, it’ll be a different place without him…and I’m missing him already.

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  14. bedizz

    Have I been living under a rock?! I’m 30 years old and attended 3 primary schools and one high school in NSW, all state schools, and the first I heard of a school chaplain was last week! Have never come across one in my experience.

    From my minimal exposure to the issue, I do not agree with the idea of chaplains in state schools. But I am an atheist psychologist-in-training so I have quite a bias ;)

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  15. Anon Today

    So I’ve read a lot of comments saying that Christian chaplains are irrelevant (and more) in our secular society, and in particular that our moral and ethical codes are not built on or undertaken in reference to the values of the Christian faith. I probably agree with the observations there but I am curious to know what those people would say IS the current reference point for our ethical and moral decision making?

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    • jc

      Common sense?

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      • Anon Today

        So you’ve heard the saying “the problem with common sense is that it isn’t that common”? The thing is that it isn’t and the reason for it is that we all have different reference points.

        A topical example is the case of that poor woman in China whose forced abortion as been well publicised. The thing is that it made ‘common’ sense to the government that introduced the One Child Policy, and it makes sense to a lot of people – even though it seems ridiculous and draconian in its enforcement. To other people the Policy and its enforcement are incomprehensible and as far from common sense as its possible to get.

        The examples are endless – common sense can be quite dependent on the circumstances in which it is applied, as well as being shaped by the personalities and experiences of the individuals involved.

        Common sense is great, and it’d be great if there was more of it. The problem that I see is that it is quite subjective. It’s not really a reason for making the big moral and ethical decisions in life, not for individuals or societies.

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    • I don’t think you need a reference point anymore.

      We are taught what is right and wrong from an early age. Yes, some of these have come from religious teachings, but some have been developed today through societal reactions.

      It’s just common sense not to stab someone or to post nude photos of an ex on Facebook, isn’t it?

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      • Anon Today

        Heres the thing, I would agree that with a shared moral background that your examples are ‘common sense’. But what if your Ex comes from a moral background where you do whatever feels good. If thats their baseline for making all decisions then there’s a chance that those Nude pictures might end up online. While it makes them look pretty stupid, the vindictive nature of that makes them feel and so it matches in with their moral baseline, so why not?

        Anyway, I still want to know HOW you know what is right and wrong. What are the measures that are or should be used in a post-christian society?

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      • Anon Today

        And just to be clear, I don’t really care one way or the other, only curious to see if there’s ANY sort of moral compass being used or if it really is ‘make it up as you go along, the way that it sounds

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        • Anonymous

          it’s possible that our morals/ethics are part of the make-up of humans via an evolutionary process. It’s conceivable that societies with stronger morals were more likely to survive due to the fact that members would help each other out, not murder each other etc. I’m not explaining it very well but book The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins explains it well :)

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          • anon

            I also have the books “god is NOT great” by Christopher Hitchens and ” The science of evolution and the myth of creationism” , which are both great at explaining it too.

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    • Kirstin

      I, personally, am a fan of secular humanism, but each to their own. A moral code doesn’t need to come from a book – I think through empathy and reason, human beings are capable of recognising right from wrong. They won’t always get it right, but no one ever does.

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  16. Faybian

    Our school chaplain runs a lunchtime play program for kids that are socially “isolated”, stressed/traumatised. A couple of years ago, my youngest went there a bit, when there was stress in the home due to my health and she loved it. In our school, it works.
    Personally, I think if the chaplains leave the schools, the 222 million (or whatever) isn’t necessarily going into the schools in some other way. I think that funding will just get pulled.

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  17. Jenny

    I believe everyone has the right to follow any religion they wish, just don’t teach it at school, leave it for the parents at home to teach. My children were excused right from grade one.

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  18. viviehar

    In our community (a large one) the school chaplains are highly respected and accepted. They do not preach or proselytise. They are a safety net for those students who need them, The students who have regular contact with the chaplains maintain friendly contact with them out of school and often post school. Enough of the negative comments. Our laws for the most part were originally based on the Christian morals and principles you all seem so ready to decry. Take a breath everyone. Christianity is based on love. Don’t tar all Christians with the same brush,

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    • Tracy

      Finally a healthy comment instead of a divisive one.. people – let me tell you a REAL Christian would talk to the Gay child, the Muslim child, the pregnant child the same way every time – with love and compassion and not a HINT of judgement. It’s not anyone’s place to judge but God so if you happen to run into someone professing to be Christian who is pointing or wagging their finger.. gently take them aside and remind them not to try and do God’s work for Him.. just LOVE and support and cherish our children – they are all perfect and beautiful and need someone on their side.

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    • twinarp

      @viviehar, you fail to see the point. It’s all about them being Christian. It’s about them being untrained, hired by religious niche groups and proselytising to your children. How would you feel if they were espousing Islam, Judaism or Scientology?
      Think about how you feel having these untrained people giving your children advice in a closed room.
      And if you think Christianity is based on love, you really need to have another read of the Bible. Christianity is based on both the New and Old Testaments.

      I don’t have kids of my own, but this is a situation I would avoid.

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      • Anon Today

        Schools can choose a ‘chaplain’ from whichever religion is most appropriate to the school, they’re not obliged to have one at all. If people have that much of a problem as to who’s in the school then the principal would be the first port of call, surely! The Fed Gov makes decisions on data fed back to them, so if they saw that all the schools had a ‘generic’ counsellor, then theres a fair chance they’d amend their policy that way.

        And don’t kid yourself, chaplains from other religions would tell students about their faith etc too. Apart from anything else, if a child asks a question for which the relevant answer is a faith based one they are allowed to give the faith-based answer. So in regards to your comment, yes, it could be a Sikh, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Scientologist, pantheist etc etc

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  19. What?

    What?

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  20. femme

    About time. Hurrah!

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  21. Lindsay

    I went to a public school that had a chaplain on staff. Every Monday on assembly he would take to the stage to “lead us” in prayer.

    This was a very multiculturally-diverse school yet he was up there every week, banging on about Jesus saving us.

    My Jewish best friend and I would refuse to bow our heads and would receive angry stares from the headmaster.

    Not allowed to preach? Non-denominational? Not in my experience.

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    • Anon Today

      And the principal just stood there and shrugged his shoulders, rolled his eyes and said “whatever”… mmm… no-one in a school works without supervision and direction. From the sounds of your story the principal was using the chaplain to do the proselytising that he himself couldn’t do

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  22. odette

    I wonder if the spell caster can also help with your problem with run on sentences?

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  23. Xanthe

    Has anyone ever asked the kids what they think?
    If there is a chaplain at their school/s, what do they think of him/her as a person. Or friend?
    Is a chaplain a mate to them? Or a bogeyman?

    I would have to say, coming from being immersed in High C of E boarding school all my life, that it didn’t have the slightest effect on my religious/spiritual beliefs. Or non-beliefs.
    I just ended up loving hymns, and know the bible backwards if that’s worth anything to anyone….?
    Certainly isn’t something I’m “proud” of, but it’s kinda handy to be able to pull biblical quotes out of the air when necessary. But that makes me look like a smart-arse.

    Nobody likes a smart-arse….

    But back to the kids – get their opinions, eh?

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    • anon

      as an atheist , I haven’t put the fear of god in my kids so they wouldn’t know what a chaplain is.

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  24. Kirstin

    My state high school had a chaplain. When I was 14, my father was diagnosed with cancer and he tracked me down to chat. He meant well and didn’t preach per se, but every time he mentioned God it just set my teeth on edge. I tried to talk to him, but I just couldn’t. He was a nice guy and he meant well, but he had no idea how to talk to the atheist kid in any meaningful way.

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  25. eternally

    It’s a bit of a sensationalist headline, the chaplains are not illegal, as you note in the body of the article, the problem is with the federal funding.

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  26. Anonymous

    Chaplains are not going around trying to convert your children, they spend there day talking to the kid that is upset & needs someone to talk to, playing games in the lunch break with the kids that have trouble making friends, going on school camps to assist the teachers, running educational class programs & supporting school programs & events. they promote good values like kindness, including others, being different is ok ect.
    Most of us want a society with Christian values but want to remove all Christian influences from it – does this seem a bit silly to you?

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    • Kirstin

      I don’t want a society with Christian values.Values, morals, and ethics exist separately from Christianity. This is not to say that all secular values are necessarily incompatible with Christian ethics, but you do not need a Christian influence to raise children with good values.

      I know when I went through high school, a trained counsellor would have been much more useful to me than a chaplain.

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      • Anon

        Thanks Kirstin, I was having trouble keeping to the dinner party rules! So sick of Christians claiming morals and values as their own.

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        • AJS

          Ah, yes. And thinking they own the word ‘family’. Christian conservatives always campaigning on ‘family values’. So annoying.

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    • dw

      Er. Who are you to say that ‘most of us’ want a society with ‘Christian’ values? I just want a society with good values, it’s only Christians who have decided they are Christian values!

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      • Anon Today

        What sort of moral code would you like to base social values on then? Weather it’s a conscious decision or not, weather its chosen, inflicted, or a result of our subconscious processing, the values that we base our social code on comes from somewhere. So what would you like social, ethical and moral codes to be based on?

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        • jc

          Common sense.

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          • Anon Today

            Good luck with that

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            • anon

              what sort of moral code do many of the priests have that have been found to be pedophiles. no morals at all.

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  27. Jules

    So you were about to get married but didn’t…but then somehow divorced… and later you say he was having an ‘affair’ with your friend.. but hadn’t you split up already…?

    There’s definitely some holes in this story.

    #ilovespam

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  28. kidsdepot

    Some good points Ursula.

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  29. ashamasha

    excellent. maybe he should be a Chaplain.

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  30. Ursula

    you might think $222 million sounds like a lot, but if you were to take out the chaplains and replace with counsellors you would get a rude shock to how little hours of paid time for each school that a counsellor would actually be allocated & paid for. Chaplains raise part of their own wage by support from community, churches & fundraising. Without this extra income they would not be in the schools anywhere near the hours they are. As well as that, most give more off there time unpaid to be at school camps, extra days & special events. I didn’t think you’d find many professional counsellors give up their free time unpaid just to be there for the kids.

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    • Anonymous

      Maybe if more professional psychologists and social workers actually got the chance to be employed at a school they would be able to do that.

      I really don’t buy the argument that it’s cheaper to have chaplains therefore better. Where else do we see professions being completely devalued? As someone who works in mental health for a living I find it extremely disheartening, and alarming. We employ professional nurses for students. But it would be cheaper to employ people who don’t have actual nursing qualifications… That would be ridiculous and extremely dangerous, though.

      I don’t understand why the mental health of children is something to be scrimped upon.

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      • Ursula

        Chaplains main roll in schools are not for the mental heath of children, they do not profess to be psychologist or what not. if your child is in need of mental heath support send them to a profession psychologist. But what they do is bridge the gap between home & teachers. They provide a diverse range of support from class room to play ground, from the kid that is happy to the kid that is sad, from the kid that is popular to the kid that is lonely. It is not that it is cheaper but that the augment to take out chaplains & replace with counsellors or psychologist is absurd & unrealistic and that the “REAL” cost of a chaplain is far above that which the government pays

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        • Anonymous

          Yep, and social workers can do that, too.

          You might want to look into the APA’s report on chaplains which revealed that the majority were dealing with students in situations such as sexual abuse, grief, etc.

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  31. Katie

    My daughter recently started primary school at a public primary school in WA.
    I was HORRIFIED when I learnt that the school had a chaplain.

    You see, as an atheist I was sending my daughter to a SECULAR PUBLIC SCHOOL for exactly that reason.. because it had no religious associations whatsoever.

    I understood that like most state primary schools there is a subject taught called ‘religion’ but like most kids at the school, my daughter would attend ‘non-scripture’ at the library while that class was held.. and that’s fair enough.

    What bothers me is that there is a Christian minister providing guidance to students at the school and I have no control if/ when my daughter sees him and what he says to her. And most importantly, why is there only a Christain chaplain? And why on earth is our secular government paying for it!?
    It baffles me.

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    • Jd

      Thank you to this Qld father to pursue this all the way to Canberra. My nephew goes to a Qld primary school where a Christian school chaplain teaches religion. He came home with religious Christian worksheets and told his parents (and myself when we having a conversations about gorillas) that God made the world and humans because that’s what he’d learned at school in religion. My sister thought that religion would cover what she thought would be all world religion and would be a better use of time at school than sitting in a library doing nothing.

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    • taegalie

      The school has the choice whether to hire a chaplain or not. they apply for the funding. Also, the school can choose whether to hire a more secular ‘welfare’ assistant or someone who ascribes a particular religion. So not necessarily Christian. I know this because my husband has an interview to be a chaplain in a primary school tomorrow!
      Also, most state schools I know of (and I know a lot) have a school counsellor, at least in a part time role.
      The chaplain doesn’t run classes or anything, they’re there if the kids want to talk to them. So I don’t think you necessarily need to worry about the chaplain Bible bashing your child.

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  32. Shan

    I miss Rick.

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  33. Alana

    Axe them. Trained counsellors would be better. As an atheist, I find it offensive that the spiritual default in this country is Christianity.

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    • Anonymous

      it is not the spiritual default but our country’s heritage. We we settled as a Christian country, are laws and values are based on Christianity, just because there is diversity in spiritual beliefs doesn’t discount our heritage and the fabric that Australia is made from

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      • Alana

        Heritage refers to the past. Probably where Christianity belongs if you ask me.

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      • Anonymous

        As far as I know the aborigines weren’t christians…

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    • Grandmamamia

      As an atheist what would you like the spiritual default to be?

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      • amyfizzer

        None. Why do we need a “spiritual” anything?

        I think the moral/ethical default should be “treat others as you wish to be treated”, “help those in need” etc. Good morals and ethics don’t stem from religion.

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        • Anon Today

          Sure, but why. Without a reason to do those things the default will eventually become “do what’s best for you, and if that is good for others well that’s a bonus”.

          I suppose that you also don’t want groups like the City Mission/salvation army/anglicare/caritas acting out their faith and helping you when you’re down and out? After all, the reason that they do it is PURELY motivated by their faith. Otherwise they would sink all the money they having to helping their own. After all, their own will appreciate it, not hold one hand out for the help and try to punch them with the other.

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  34. Choices for the privileged.

    I understand how people don’t want their children to be a part of Religious Education Classes, or participate in the weekly Chaplin sessions, but guess what, YOU DONT HAVE TO! You get to make that choice.

    Let me say that again, YOU get to make that CHOICE. We live in possibly the greatest country in the world. Our public education system is a lot better than most countries. We get to live in a country that lets us make a choice on how and what we would like our children to learn. Shall we go look at yesterdays article on Chinese woman getting her child aborted at 7mths. Some people have no CHOICE.

    Yes, it may cost 222 million, but do we really want to get into a debate as to how much money the government has WASTED on other avenues (MYKI for example, just a cool billion lost there). But that money that is used to pay these people for a JOB they are DOING. These are people, who need a job just like the rest of us. I’m sure we could count at least 222 million in administration staff at councils where they probably aren’t “needed”.

    Pretend you were a Christian wanting your children to be guided at school, but couldn’t afford to send them to a private school, how is it fair that these students suffer because of that.

    Of course there is always going to be exception to the rule, when people break the law, they deserve to punished for that. But taking down ALL chaplains, ALL jobs, ALL choice…. it’s a little extreme.

    To my understanding most schools have councillors AND chaplains. I don’t understand why it has to be a either or situation. Also, a lot of you are saying that your children would benefit from having a psychologist instead.
    Really? if your child needs a psychologist, then maybe you should look at your parenting, rather than cutting thousands of jobs!

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    • Lulu

      “Pretend you were a Christian wanting your children to be guided at school”

      I thought that’s what churches were for?

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      • Choices for the privileged

        Lulu- Hence why i said “guided at SCHOOL”.

        Church is only 1 day a week.

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        • Lulu

          Sorry, I should have explained. What I meant was that church is the place for spiritual guidance – school isn’t, it’s the place for education.

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          • Choices for the privileged

            Lulu, I believe your comment to be nieve. Yes school is for education, but education is very broad. It is not just reserved to English and Maths.

            Christianity isnt about just going to church. You have to educate yourself on a regular basis, hence why they have school chaplins.

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            • anon

              hence why we have religious schools.

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            • Ladybug

              The shouldn’t a broad education include studies on all the world’s religions?

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            • Sir quack

              What if you were a muslim and wanted your child to have religious guidance at school?Are you paying for that too?

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            • Choices for the privileged

              If you go back to my original comment, all I spoke about was guidance, had nothing to do with a spiritual guidance. I can list a lot of nasty teachers at schools, the Chaplains offer a safe friendly environment, where maybe teachers don’t have the time to do so.
              This country, whether you like it or not, was built under the commonwealth, under Christian values, that’s why we have chaplins in our schools. It’s part of our history.
              Most the people that are complaining about them aren’t Christians, but there are A LOT of people in Australia that are, so again, why is it fair for these students to be punished of that?

              I agree that schools should teach about other religions, to educate them on the history and beliefs of other people. But your calling the kettle black if you think your religion should be taught over someone else’s.

              AGAIN, you have the CHOICE. Stop your complaining and dont let them attend if you dont want them to learn about it.

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        • Anonymous

          Most churches and pastors are available every day if required.

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    • Anon

      And I would also like a choice in how my taxes are spent and I choose more support staff for children with disabilities and learning disorders and / or trained counsellors. NOT chaplains. Why is it that P & C’s and the school community don’t have the opportunity to democratically decide on the matter of chaplains.

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      • Choices for the privileged

        I too agree that there should be more support staff to assist those with disabilities and learning disorders, but again, why cant we have both. You would penalise children who enjoy having the chaplains.
        The school community get a choice, and I think that is enough.

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        • Anonymous

          It’s not really a choice when it’s cheaper to employ a chaplain.

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    • Anonymous

      Goodness. You can’t get through 6 hours of the day without spiritual guidance? CHURCH is for spiritual guidance, not school. What happens to all these children who supposedly need a chaplain during the day when they go on to work?? Oh yes, that’s right, they go to CHURCH..in their own time!

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  35. Laws for Clouds

    My son’s school got a chaplain under this program, I signed a slip to allow her permission to work with him. She’s running a social stories program for special needs children (my son has aspergers) and helps deal with bullying (my son is in primary).

    Prior to the program, the school had nothing.

    Trained counsellors would be great, especially in high schools. I doubt it will happen, and kids will miss out.

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    • Gemma

      Why is it any less likely that high schools would get counsellors in than chaplains if they were able to use the same money allocated for Chaplains.

      It’s such a cop out to say ‘I doub’t it will happen’ so let’s just keep going with this inadequate system.

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      • Anonymous

        Trained counsellors would expect a standard wage for hours worked. where as chaplains have to raise money to supplement the money that is allocated to them by the government, they are not payed a full wage for hours worked by government, but are supported by community, churches and their own fundraising efforts. The school gets many, many more hours & support from the chaplains as they are dedicated to the school & the children in a way that no trained counsellor would be

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        • Anonymous

          As a mental health counsellor and social worker, I find that last line extremely offensive.

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          • Anonymous also

            As a school psychologist, I also find the above statement that a school counsellor is any way less dedicatd to the school or students than a chaplain a tad insulting. As you say, Chaplains do fundraising for part of their salary, but that means they are still getting paid – like counsellors/psycholgoists/social workers they aren’t working for free. Having worked with many psychologists and chaplains in schools, to be honest either can be fabulous or ‘not the best’. All do care for the kids, you couldn’t work in such a job otherwise, and they try to do the best job they can in an extremely under-resourced area – that of supporting the emotional, behavioural & learning needs of students in schools. Not sure what the best answer is, but as long as support staff follow school and department guidelines, having a mix of support staff is not a bad idea!

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            • Kris2040

              Pretty offensive to teachers to suggest that they’re not interested too!

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      • Laws for Clouds

        I would LOVE to see trained counsellors in schools as a replacement for the chaplaincy program, but I fear the alternative isn’t better, it’s nothing.

        After all, budget surplus budget surplus budget surplus….

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      • taegalie

        Chaplain positions are only funded for 10 hrs a week and on an untrained pay scale, while counsellors would need far greater pay.

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  36. Cornerstone

    Yes, religious freedom is what makes our country great. You have the freedom to be a Christian, Jews, Muslim, Buddhist, Sikh or Atheist. We have the right to practice our faith without persecution, and more importantly we each have the responsibility to respect each other’s religious choices and BE respectful.

    If I could redirect that $222m it would go to the independent and religious schools so that the parents who would LIKE to give their children the opportunity for religious education, but can’t afford it, can take their kids out of already over crowded public schools. Sadly though I think that idea is floored and creates a segregational society. I honestly don’t understand why religion, especially Christianity, is so offensive to people. There are plenty of non-religious, non-Christian people who are A-holes capable of hideous behaviour.

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    • Anonymous

      I thought religion was about helping everyone. Disgusting that religious schools dont let in those that cant pay. As usual what religious people say and what they do are very different. Makes me sick…

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      • Faybian

        As they are private organizations and don’t get all their funding from the govt, they need to raise the money for their operating costs. Religious schools usually offer a limited number of different types of scholarships and bursaries to help with fees.
        Do you really expect them to run them for free? Going from your last couple of sentences, I think you just don’t like religion.

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  37. MaryV

    Could you please deliniate between old comments and new ones. Perhaps a link to old comments. It is annoying when Igo to read them and realise that you have recycled an old post, updated it a little but all the old comments are there.

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  38. rima

    i miss rick

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    • Black Cherry

      As do I. It wasn’t until he left that I realised what he brought to this website. His writing was witty and interesting, but also not ‘fluffy’ in any sense. I miss it, it was what I looked for and even when it didn’t draw a lot of comments, it was still incredibly interesting and thought-out.

      I’m sure Mamamia are aware of this, but I just wanted to point out that his absence is, to me at least, quite noticeable.

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    • Shan

      We should totally start a GetUp! Campaign to have Rick returned to us. Kidding. Sort of.
      :)

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  39. Jeff

    I had a chaplain in high school. In year 7 camp he had the whole class singing grace prior to each meal. I remember thinking there was something wrong with that in a secular society, and I hope that my children won’t have to be evangelised to.

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  40. Bernie

    I hope we as a nation don’t underestimate what school chaplains do, i consider this as an early intervention for children who are in a vulnerable situations, parents who are needing support and yes children who need shoulders to lean on. Counselors can certainly do the job but trained professionals can be very expensive and certainly time limited. Change in person’s life happens overtime and unlimited time and resources are needed to acquire change.

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    • Lord Blackadder

      So what advice would a Chaplin give the gay student? The pregnant student? The student who has questions about contraception? These are all vulnerable students who do not need to be preached, yet this is what happens when you have a person of faith giving advice to someone who does not partake in their same brand of faith.

      Trained, qualified school counsellors are the only desirable option and what our students deserve – not some half-arsed stop-gap run by religious fundamentalists. The fact that our government and sections of the Chritisn community cannot see this frightens and confuses me.

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  41. canberrakaren

    I’ve worked in several schools that have chaplains and I think one of the key reasons they are there is because they are significantly cheaper to fund than counsellors, teaching assistants and other support staff. Schools are community institutions that are expected to not only educate young people but fulfil a number of other roles, and one of those is to comprehensively deal with young people in need of counselling due to mental illness, trauma etc. Unfortunately the pay rates for school counsellors mean that for those who possess the necessary qualifications they can earn far more working in private practice or as part of a GP’s clinic, resulting in a dearth of practicing school counsellors. Schools are desperate for support in dealing with students who have counselling needs and thus employ chaplains and other staff in an attempt to meet the shortfall. Yes, the school chaplaincy program costs a lot of money but it would cost far more to employ the number of counsellors actually needed in our schools.

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  42. kimbalikes

    Separation of church and state is one of the abiding principles of this country and so it should remain.

    Whilst I’m sure that not every chaplain will seek to convert and proselytise, there are many who will not be able to resist the temptation.

    I had an ongoing discussion (some may some argument or debate!) with a committed Christian, on the topic of “If I don’t believe but am willing to respect your right to do so, why aren’t you willing to respect my right not to believe?”. Her answer was that as a Christian, she knows how great God’s love is and as a good friend, wants other people to experience the same thing. This is why I believe chaplains to be inappropriate for public schools.

    If you are a religious school, then you will have your own chaplain(s) on staff. Most of the students will be religious and feel comfortable with these people. (I’m assuming therefore that a Jewish school would have a Jewish equivalent, a Muslim school have a Muslim equivalent, Anglican, Catholic, etc all have specific people.)

    How would this be organised in terms of non-religious state schools? Can the money be spent on a guidance counsellor if they are termed a “chaplain”?

    If I had a lazy $222 million to spend on state schools, I would spend half of the money on guidance counsellors who would be able to coordinate services on behalf of students who need help, and the other half on support staff for students in need.

    I

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    • Anon Today

      This is A U S T R A L I A not A M E R I C A.

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  43. Anonymous

    The government should not be funding chaplains in state schools!

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    • Anon

      I absolutely agree!! We didn’t have them when I was growing up. I send my kids to a CAtholic school (and they’re being brought up Catholic, like their father), so don’t have any problem with chaplaincy or RI in their school (because after all IT IS what it is). But in a state school?! If you want to bring up your kids with a religion or otherwise – pick your system – to me state school equals no religious instruction (incl.chaplaincy) of any faith!

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      • Anonymous

        Chaplains are not about religion, they are there as a support for the school, families and kids. my son is in prep and the chaplain came to the class the other day & discussed feelings with them. on my way into school i saw the chaplain with a crowd of children milling around him, talking & laugh, my son had to run up and say hi. then another day he was playing hand ball before school with some boys. They fill the gap between teachers & home – they make they kids feel there is someone else who cares for them.

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        • anon

          please, chaplains are not about religion? that’s the most ridiculous statement I’ve heard so far.

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  44. onesmalllife

    So I’m coming to this a bit late, but I feel it’s worth commenting because it is an issue that quite gets under my skin.

    I just do not believe that the government should be funding chaplains in state schools.

    I did not agree with it when Howard introduced it, but at least it was consistent with his platform.

    The fact that a Gillard government has bolstered this program to the tune of $222milion just irritates me no end.

    She is supposed to be an advocate for excellence in education in this country.

    This strikes me as a purely political move, to appease the Christian right and not something she truly believes in.

    Just like the issue of gay marriage. And asylum seekers.

    Just how many core beliefs is she willing to sell out on in order to keep her political engine running.

    I appreciate that you have to negotiate in politics and that she is in a tenuous position, but at some point you also have to lead. Take a stand. Stand for something.

    As a supporter of the separation of Church and State I am really pleased that Rick and the MM team have posted on this. It is an important issue, and I do not think that to do so constitutes any sort of criticism of Christians. It’s so not about that.

    It’s about government funded religious programs in our state schools.

    And it’s about how much better spent that enormous amount of money could be.

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  45. R

    I’m currently still in high school, although this may only be true in my circumstance, I feel as though our chaplain and counsellor are completely different. Our chaplain cares and knows most of us personally, whereas most of us didn’t know we had a counselor until year 12. The only association of our chaplain’s faith was that it motivated him to be the person he is, and it is because of his this that he doesn’t try to ‘convert’ because it would be disobeying authority.

    Anyway, my point is, there are just as many cases where a chaplain does benefit a school more than a counselor than vice versa.

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  46. Nic

    Currently in schools, we can’t even get full time Education Assistants for children who cannot feed and toilet themselves or communicate with other children. Those Education Assistants are also woefully paid for what are often extremely difficult, intense jobs.

    Chaplains are being prioritised over children with severe additional needs? It’s mystifying.
    Rick, I completely agree with what you are saying and I think it’s fab that a man in Qld is challenging the government on this one. They need to be.

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    • Rick Morton

      Thanks Nic :) That’s what it boils down to for me. Where could the money be better spent? People are saying you don’t get 1:1 chaplains:counsellors or teacher aides for the same money. Maybe not. But every additional aide or support staff member is SO valuable I’ll take whatever we can get.

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  47. dave

    There are a few points that need correcting here — ? I think this is not $222 million — there was already more than $440 million committed to this program, with another $111 million this takes it closer to $600 million…?
    …… and this doesn’t include significant amounts of money being put into it by some state governments.

    …and whilst I appreciate everyone’s right to comment — there almost seems to be a “script” happening for bloggers from the religious right who get onto these forums…

    There is ample and widespread evidence that Chaplains are evangelising and exceeding the boundaries of their role and competence. This is even evident in their own documentation.

    The idea that the societal and mental health issues of our young people can be fixed by bringing them closer to jesus, or by “having” a “listening ear,” or a “friend” is fundamentally flawed.

    I want my children – and yours too – to have access to properly trained professionals with the skills to address the complexities of these issues. We need $550M spent on School Psychologist – imagine what a difference that would make. Especially as $50m or more of the NSCP money is for “Administration”.

    The research tells us that the first point of contact for children with mental health issues is their School Psychologist / School counsellor. There is also ample evidence of the tragedy that can follow when children can’t get access to such a service. The NSW coroner recommended a minimum ratio of one School Psychologist to 500 students in our high schools.

    Our School Psychs are a presence in our schools, and they are completely overwhelmed with the number of students who seek them out!!

    A number of people have made statements that just aren’t supported by the evidence – even the “evidence” provided by the Chaplaincy programme itself – who clearly said that chaplains ARE dealing with serious Mental Health issues, and they DON’T tend to refer on. The NT ombudsman’s report was also very clear that the activites undertaken WERE counselling which they were not trained for. (incidentally, something their guidelines say they are not to do..) Not only was there evidence of them exceeding these boundaries, they were also ignoring the Mandatory Reporting Laws in the Northern Territory. It was reported in the Northern Territory Ombudsman findings (www.ombudsman.nt.gov.au)that children were confiding in them information that under Northern Territory law had to be reported.

    I am also aware of the unsupported statements (which seem to originate from Access and SU), attempting to denigrate the work of Psychologists and others. There must be a script somewhere for this – eg – “they only work in offices” (not true) “they only do assessments” (not true) “they are a stranger/not part of the school” (not in our schools) they would get “caught up doing therapuetic counselling” – what does this even mean? You would prefer that they didn’t have the skills and training to help our troubled young people?

    You might also like to know that Psychs are registered health professionals who have very strict legal requirements around confidentiality, which means they can’t go around blowing their own trumpet and publishing things in newsletters and online which might identify their clients!! Just have a look at some of the chaplaincy blogs. (You might also see that the main strategy when they don’t know what to do seems to be to pray, and ask everybody else to pray as well.)

    Some people say that their Chaplain refers to other professionals OUT of the school. (This is not backed up by the data from those running the chaplaincy programs) Even if this is true in some few cases, the evidence shows that this just creates another barrier to a young person getting help. We need more Psychs working in schools, so kids can access the help they need more easily!

    Chaplains cost how much? Look it up – it’s pretty hard to find though.
    But approx $20K p.a for 2 days? so $50K pa then for a full time one?
    What does a six to eight year Masters or PhD Psych start on (in our state at least) – $56K.

    What kind of hours do they work? – with preparation, case notes, follow up work out of hours with parents, teachers and other health services – and compulsory Professional Learning? At least a 12 hr day and more. Lunch breaks? Toilet breaks? “playing with the students” at Lunchtime?

    And yes, our Psychs DO run programs, take groups and participate in the life of the school wherever they can – it’s just they are spread so thinly, and they are dealing with the very pointy end of our distressed kids! They’re often not the kids “having fun” with the Chaplain – or if they are, wouldn’t they be better getting some real help?

    And yes – our Psychs are approachable – our Psych has kids lined up outside, approaching him in the corridor – sometimes to say hello, but when they need real help, they know where to go – and it’s not the Chaplain.

    I have been “looking into” this for a very long time and pretty thoroughly. If you want evidence – try google, you might find the NSW Coroner’s report, and some of the associated information, you might find the Ombudsman’s report in the NT, you might find the newspaper reports about the Chaplain who was “inappropriate” with a 12 year old boy…. if you keep reading, you might get the impression that this is the tip of the iceberg.

    Let’s get the funding to provide our kids with people who have the skills and training to help them for real. Can someone please tell the government and the relevant Ministers (Garrett and Butler) to stop trying to buy the votes of the Religious right at the expense of our children’s well-being, and even their lives.

    If this Government is serious about the Mental Health and well-being of our young people, they would put this money in to funding and training programs for School-based Psychology services.

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    • Nic

      Hurrah! You are a legend.

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    • naomiannbicheno

      put this into an essay format, then submit it to The Drum/National Times/New Matilda/Crikey/The Punch – lots of people are not aware of your points and need to be made aware

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  48. Lil Lea Lea

    Another issue is the process by which these funds are allocated. Under the previous system, which I do not believe has changed, the funds are not paid directly to the school, or even the education dept to the chaplain. Instead the funds must be paid to a religious not for profit who then in turn pays the chaplain. I have seen this go wrong when a principal selected a chaplain who was not affiliated with the not for profit, rather than the candidate which the nfpo put forward. The nfpo simply refused to pay the chaplain, leaving the principals hands tied! Such large sums being so open to misappropriation and giving churches control over principals, is a disaster!!!!

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  49. just dropping by,

    trained counselors see students one on one – not in groups of 20 to 30, if we want one of our boys to talk to the counselor at the school we have to book in at least a week ahead, and then we get a half hour, and it’s NOT to talk about general morality, or whats nice behavior, it’s to talk about “issues”

    the chaplain has our boys for one lesson period, and they talk about right and wrong and treating people fairly and what easter is about and so on, the kids who dont go get to do “silent reading”.

    If you REALLY want to talk about government waste, riddle me this:-
    this year $97 BILLION of your tax dollars vanish into a section of the budget called general government services – up by $4 Billion on last years budget – but ASK for a breakdown of where that $97 Billion goes and you wont get one. (GSS does NOT include health, defence or education)

    Politicians draw their pension from the day they leave office or are voted out:- that means a pollie who “retired” 40 years ago, at age 40, drew his pension from that very day, and WE pay for it, STILL. In fact for thousands upon thousands of pollies who returned to full time work your taxes are paying them a nice a little perk. Easily OVER a Billion a year of your taxes goes to retired pollies, and that is not counting those that get offices, staff, expenses, cars, travel = all paid for out of your taxes, (and adding to YOUR bill) until they drop off the twig 50/60 years after they “retire”. Long after you have worked yourself into an early grave to pay your taxes, fat little ex-pollies will still be guzzling chardonnay in luxury, all courtesy of you.

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    • Quokka

      When I worked as a school Psychologist I regulalry worked at the system level. I ran entire groups of thirty to forty students covering everything from teenage depression to bullying so this is not generally the case.

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  50. bitter truth

    Our health system is FAILING. So sad to read that $222 million has been wasted this way.

    I am actually a fan of chaplains in schools HOWEVER I wasn’t aware that the govt was funding them. Nor was I aware that Gillard put $222 million towards chaplains!!!!!!!! WTF?!

    That is SO MUCH MONEY WASTED!

    Wow. :(

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