In any conversation you may have this weekend or in weeks and months and years to come about asylum seekers, the same old lines will come up. “They should join the queue” and “We need to stop the boats to prevent tragedies like the one on Christmas Island” and “We already have too many refugees in this country”.
These lines frequently make me want to throw things at people or radios. I will never understand those who can’t see the human tragedy in people who are refused asylum or who are being treated like criminals for trying to escape tyranny and fear.
Watch this ad from Amnesty International and pass it on:
So instead of throwing something, media professional and blogger par excellence, Rick Morton (who wrote the magnificent post 17 Arguments Against Gay Marriage And Why They’re Wrong – which was FB shared 870 times by MM readers) has come up with this brilliant list: 10 Reasons Why You’re Wrong About Asylum Seekers”. Rick writes:
If you listen to the naysayers, and there are many who frequently say nay, there are roughly four things that have the capacity to end the world. Those are the gays, nuclear weapons, Amy Winehouse and asylum seekers.
There. I said it.From Amnesty's re-think refugee campaign
And I wonder whether they still believed it when a boat carrying some 80-100 asylum seekers was smashed on to the rocks in churning seas at Christmas Island, like it was some kind of horrific metaphor for the welcome we extend them if they do happen to make it to shore. Those who have politicised the plight of asylum seekers, who claimed previously that we have offered the ‘red carpet’ to these folk have yet to clarify their remarks in the wake of the tragedy.
Well, those at the top of the tree anyhow. If you’re like me and you hate yourself, then you were probably listening to talkback radio and the views of those safely ensconced in their suburban lifestyles telling us we should ‘send them back’ and that ‘they got what they deserved’. Because apparently asylum seekers are broken Christmas fob watches with return policies.
The arguments some people use to solidify mass ignorance, are, however a little bit wrong. Or a lot wrong, depending on your ability to estimate spatial entities. Helpfully, I have compiled a little list of the most common arguments against asylum seekers which I am calling ‘The Big List of Reasons You’re Wrong About Asylum Seekers’.
1. They’re illegal! Aha, our criminal justice system will protect our prejudice!
I don’t quite know how to put this, so I’m going to go with a simple: no. They’re not illegal. They’re not any more illegal than that moustache you grew ironically last October. Both Australian and International Law allows those seeking asylum from persecution in their countries to seek it. That includes on our shores. Article 14 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights also backs this up. And yes, they’re still allowed to seek asylum if they have no documents. Now, what you’re referring to as ‘illegals’ are people who overstay their Visas. There are thousands of these, mostly people from Western Countries who got sozzled in a backpacker bar and missed their connection flight back to Oxford.
2. They’re queue jumpers, look at them deftly skipping that queue!
I want you to show me, on a map of the world, where this queue is. Even if there was a queue, you’re missing the point. Let me put it this way. If you’re being chased by your worst nightmare – mine would be spandex bike shorts – and that nightmare can or will kill you, where do you run? Maybe you have two options. In one you have to cross many borders before finally boarding a boat that isn’t really a boat and hoping that maybe it’ll hold together until you get to a country that will probably lock you up when you get there anyway. The other option is to sit patiently in a queue, like you would at a bank before making a withdrawal. Except at the bank you won’t die. You see, in the queue you will get caught and persecuted and shot and killed or any combination of the above. You might die on a boat too, but what choice do you have? It’s a moot point anyway as in places like Iraq and Iran, where most of yesterday’s asylum seekers were from, Australia has no diplomatic representation and there is no standard queue to wait patiently in. What would you do?
3. But they’re just boat people!
Boat people? Sounds like a race of creatures that look predominantly like boats. This phrase is terribly disingenuous. They’re not boat people, they’re fleeing from horrific persecution and terrible lives. Show some respect.
4. Well, what if they come and steal our jobs?
You mean the jobs that you don’t want to do? In any case, accepting people into this country who want to work to make a better life for them and their families is good for the economy. They create demand, they will shop, they will spend money on other industries. Some will go on to study to be doctors like the great Victor Chang, others will pack fruit at the local markets. Research has shown the benefit to the US economy of all ‘illegal’ immigrants is some $800 billion. So, even if you don’t have a heart, the economic windfalls of granting asylum are robust to say the least.
5. Well, they won’t work, they’ll just sit on welfare and drain our resources.
There is absolutely no evidence to suggest this has happened, or will happen. There will be some, as there are in our own ‘culture’ where your cousin Ted spends too much time gurgling bong water and adjusting his crotch throughout the day.
6. We take too many refugees anyway, why let even more in?
I have a feeling that you would still say this when we take just one asylum seeker . As it turns out, Australia takes about one refugee for every 1600 people. In Britain that number is one for every 600 and in Tanzania – the beacon of the developed world *cough* – they take one for every 75. These figures are from the turn of the 21st Century. And that’s all refugees – not just those who come by boat. We took fewer refugees this year than there were residents in my home shire – 14,000. And really people, I grew up in the sticks.7. But they’re all Muslims!
Quick, everybody hide! Seriously, what the hell is your point? If what you really meant to say was ‘they’re all terrorists’ you are also wrong. The amount of asylum seekers sent home due to character references, out of the 14,000 odd we take each year, is almost in the single digits. Are there bad apples? Yes. There were bad apples in my Year 12 class as well. No, really, some of those people were dicks.
8. If we just stopped the boats tragedies like this wouldn’t happen.
Equivalent: If we stopped the murderers we would have no more murders. Or: Why false logic has ripped our hearts out. First, those aren’t just boats. There are people on them. Those people need a home safe from danger. We can give them that. Secondly, if you manage to stop the boats then I also have a Rancor in my basement that needs feeding.
9. “If people are stupid enough to risk their live in leaky boats it’s not my problem.”
That’s an actual comment on a news website. I truly think my cat understands more about this issue than this person does. And my cat tried to eat its dinner through an unopened can.
10. They should shut the back door to Australia and make them catch planes.
Please see all arguments above.
Disclaimer: I am not a refugee. I once sailed on a boat but it was quite nice and I did it on a lake and there was only a slight breeze. I have lived a fairly good life. I’ve never wanted for anything and my family has taught me the value of a ‘fair go’ and hard work. Once, I stood on a nail. It hurt a lot, but that is probably the most physical pain I have ever been in. The greatest threat to my life as a child was that nail in that sandpit. Today, it is driving through the city to get to my friend’s house because I am a bad driver and changing lanes scares me.
I will leave this country one day, on a plane, to go work overseas because I can. And I will probably spend a lot of my money on alcohol and cigarettes while pretending I am being very cultured. This is not the case for asylum seekers who are forced to flee heart-stopping terror in their own countries in search of a better place. Australia could be that better place if we opened our hearts and our eyes. Currently, we can sit back and watch a boat of asylum seekers break apart on the rocks and admonish them for being silly. But we don’t know the exact kind of horror they have had to flee. We will never know it and therefore it is very easy for us not to care, or to send them back with the receipt.
Granting asylum to those desperate is not going to change the way you live your life. It might enhance our culture, like immigrants did in the decades before us, and it might boost our economy but you’re more than welcome to continue whatever it is that you were doing, and have been doing, for the decades these asylum seekers have been turning up in the tiny numbers that they do.
Problem solved.








Comments
685 Comments so far
well now, isn’t that a well thought out and articulated response to the issue?
loading...
Just thought that I would bring an interesting fact to the attention of contributors here. It is not a comment on those who arrive by boat, I have given up on that one.
At the time that I am entering this the rather serious issue of unauthorised arrivals has attracted 546 comments.
The topic immediately prior to this, something about fashion shopping bags, has attracted 486 comments. In raw maths, that is, fancy shopping bags are only 10% less important to the contributors here than the situation of asylum seekers.
Meanwhile, the thread on the Christmas Island tragedy attracted only 104 comments, or less than 20% of the comments on the shopping bag thread.
The thread ‘Everyone has a thing, what is your thing’ attracted 617 responses, or 111% of the serious topic of asylum seekers.
Just an observation of how deep this forum really is.
loading...
I really don’t think you can rely on comments to tell you about what people think or feel about a post. Just because a post has fewer comments does not mean it is read by fewer people and it certainly doesn’t mean people don’t give it as much thought.
loading...
But it does give an indication of the strength of sentiment: surely if people have strong thoughts / opinions / feelings (so important here – feelings) they will contribute more and with more posts.
I would go further, that a large number of posts in the unauthorised arrival thread were posted by around 30 contributors at around 5 to 10 posts each (I haven’t actually added them up), but how many multiple posts would there be by a similar proportion of contributors in the fashion bag thread?
Sure, more people posted the original article on fakebook (btw on fakebook ‘friends’? A FRIEND is someone you would lend money, and half expect not to get it back, to or help move house, not someone at a distance on an computer page), but how reliable is fakebook as a social indicator when you only need to click an icon with a mouse once, without actually having to think through what you are doing?
Sorry, but I do think that we can gauge quite a bit from the response to articles on forums like this.
loading...
I didn’t comment on the shopping/fashion post – or the Christmas Island one – I am a sometimes visitor, not a daily one.
The number of comments is not a true indication of how important people feel an issue is.
Shopping is ‘safe’ to comment on. Refugees are not.*
*Disclaimer: I am in no way impugning the MM community here – this is true of society as a whole.
loading...
Doug, if you aren’t happy with the depth of this forum, perhaps you would be happier somewhere else.
loading...
I am not into ‘happiness’. Happiness is just a feeling.
loading...
Goodbye Doug
loading...
Your leaving?
loading...
“You’re”, Doug, “you’re”.
loading...
I think Doug might be a robot sent from the future to confuse us all with meaningless stats. Doug, you’re excluding anybody who visits this site from having multiple passions and interests? Dangerous. The quality of the argument in this forum is what counts.
Also, this post has now been shared more than 2015 times. I think that is close to a record for this site. Research shows that even the click of a mouse on the Internet has to be warranted by interest or otherwise. People won’t share if they don’t like it or find it at least interesting.
In any case, I hope you have a very Merry Christmas, whether merriment is just a feeling or not.
loading...
Perhaps “Misery loves company” is more your speed…
loading...
Aren’t you clever with all your maths? You must be so glad to be so much more enlightened than all of us silly women.
I’m sorry, but even if we were at a dinner party I’d tell you to get bent.
loading...
“In raw maths, that is, fancy shopping bags are only 10% less important to the contributors here than the situation of asylum seekers”
If Mia posted something titled “The sky is blue” or “Traffic accidents are bad”, there would probably not be a large number of responses. Not because people disagree, but because they agree and might think the point is obvious. However, I confidently expect that you would be the exception to the rule, arguing that the sky is not blue and boat people cause most traffic accidents.
loading...
Doug, trivial threads are popular because they do not require any deep thought or analysis.Furthermore, One can have an opinion about shopping bags and not be abused and vilified. However, if one goes againt the dominant group think on Mama Mia one gets sledged.
loading...
No Catherine, one does not get sledged on MM for going against the dominant group think. In fact, all opinions are welcome here. However, one will get sledged for being rude and insulting other readers. Just because you disagree with someone else’s opinion, doesn’t make their opinion wrong, nor does it give you the green light to be rude. Remember, just like the dinner party, if you can’t play nicely, please leave.
loading...
Doug, your methodology on gauging the depth of concern on this forum is flawed.
For example, I was deeply deeply moved by the thread on the little boys who were molested by their cousin. But I didnt comment, as I felt out of my depth, and overwhelmed by emotion. Ditto for some of the other more ‘sensitive’ threads. I choose not to demean important subject matter by posting comments from a position of ignorance. I have too much respect for the people affected by the issues, to do that.
I wouldnt hesitate to comment on a less sensitive or less political thread, because flippancy and ‘heres what I reckon’ is appropriate in subject matter such as handbag preference and swapping recipes. Ill bet others feel the same.
Its worth considering that peoples level of concern and depth of feeling results in an inverse number of comments sometimes. Not the linear relationship that you have proposed, and attributed to a lack of depth.
loading...
Right. Well. ‘scuse me while I grab my body armour.
I was horrified with the Christmas Island shipwreck. Where the Hell was the Navy? No-one, no matter who they are, deserves that. Ever.
So, that aside, I do have issues with refugees. Big ones.
I have a son in Afghanistan. My husband is crippled, and has health issues from fighting wars in some of the countries these refugees are fleeing from. And yet, in many cases, they have access to more and better services than we do. Fact, not fiction. I lost my job due to ‘a downturn in business’ when the Kosovars were here, only to be replaced by a Government-funded refugee a week later. We lost our house due to the drop in income, lived in our car, with kids split between 3 houses. Kosovars were given Government-built houses – built just for them.
So, do I think we have a basic duty of care – yes I do. But we have a more urgent duty of care to the people already in this country, because guess what – they were here first.
As for the over-crowding in the camps we hear about – even the UN is saying the deportation process for those refused refugee status is too slow. If they are told ‘No’, put them on a plane and send them back.
loading...
It has frequently been a puzzle to me to see that poor services that many of our war-time veterans have to put up – not least with an obstructive military or veterans bureaucracy that delays every claim for help by years and years, often winning by simply enabling the person to die before all the challenges are overcome. I understand that.
However, I am also puzzled by claims that refugees receive preferential treatment in the welfare system. Having been closely connected to community-based support systems for refugees for over 15 years I haven’t seen any evidence of “better services”.
Similarly, to my knowledge, employers have not been able to obtain government-funded-subsidised employees for more than 20 years. Refugees are not “cheap labour” who are doing Australians out of work. Howard’s 457 Visas were initially, but not refugees.
And I am unaware of any government department of housing, state or Federal, that has specifically built housing stock for refugee families.
So, with respect, RosesAreBlue, The facts as I see them do not line up with the facts as you see them.
loading...
Yes you are right, we should be looking after the indigenous, after all they were here first.
loading...
And regarding this “queue” (which by the sound of it does exist but is not actually an option for everyone, since access to join it depends on being located in a country where applications are processed), is it really so simple as 1 person arrives by boat = one fewer person accepted from the hypothetical queue? Do we in fact have a limit for total number of people offered asylum in Australia, or are those in detention processed differently/separately from those in refugee camps further afield?
loading...
Yes there is a queue of applications, yes there is a limit on how many people Australia brings in, yes 1 boat person means one less from the queue gets in.
loading...
Solution, get rid of all the Englanders and New Zealanders who overstay their visa and are the real illegals. But we can’t have that because they are white and not middle eastern.
loading...
This article makes a lot of good points, however there is one that hasn’t been covered: the idea that being a “soft touch” country might – or already does – encourage more people to come to Australia over other countries, so that even if a few thousand refugees can easily be helped here, what if that number goes up to millions per year once the word gets out that we’re the easy target destination.
loading...
If that number goes up to millions per year? oh no! White Australians might also have that many babies a year. What a disaster.
loading...
“need” ? to understand. !! These people pass through many “peaceful” countries enroute to Australia. Your map of the world comment “show me the lines of refugee’s” is a disgraceful comment, when camps are full all over Asia/Africa.
Ask the Dutch about the end result of increasing levels of Muslim migrants, and you “need” to understand that it “will” in some way affect/change to way we live and the way our TAX money is spent.
loading...
Thank-you for this rational and moral reasoning. People are people. I think empathy is paramount. Imagine it was you or me.
loading...
someone else posted about this earlier in the post, but i thought i would add the addresses.
you can send cards to children in detention. here are the details from the asylum seeker resource centre website:
The latest figures show that there are curently 889 kids in detention – 442 are unaccompanied minors (UAMs). Bring a message of hope and welcome to the now 889 children under guard in immigration centres and camps around Australia. A baby was born to detention last Friday and another two are coming if their parents are not released soon. Your cards will be posted up on the walls of the detention centres to bring a smile to the children living there.
Send your cards to these places of detention adressed to ‘The children and teenagers’:
Darwin Airport lodge
3 Cecil Cook Avenue
Mararra
Darwin NT 0811
ASTI MOTEL
Smith Stree
Darwin City
NT 0800
Melbourne Immigration Transit Accomodation
120-150 Camp Road
Broadmeadows
VIC 3047
Brisbane Immigration Transit Accommodation
PO Box 1083
Eagle Farm
QLD 4009
The Virginia Palms APOD
Cnr Sandgate & Zillmere Rds
Boondall
Qld 4034
Leonora APOD
996 Otterburn Street
Leonora
WA 6438
loading...
“The latest figures show that there are curently 889 kids in detention – 442 are unaccompanied minors (UAMs)”
somewhat related – I’m generally left-leaning and pro-humane refugee policies (for any age) but I have to say there did seem to be a reasonable argument coming from the conservatives that some of these minor’s are not actually in fact proven minors. It makes sense when you consider that the options to bring over your family when you are much greater if you are minor than if you are an adult single. I’d be interested to hear what those with more knowledge have to say or if they refute this.
loading...
Yes, a close up look to see if they are in fact adults rather than 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13 years old has always resulted in them actually being caught out as adults.
/sarcasm
loading...
Obviously I’m talking about those who say they are 17 and are possibly in their later teens early 20s, you cannot tell just by looking. I’m not so blind as to think all potential refugees do the right thing.
loading...
Blind enough to make generalisations based on what exactly? Urban myths?
loading...
‘God’ bless refugees. They ‘get it’. They have hope and they have courage beyond which most of us have never had to find. They bring knowledge, and great food.
They bring strength and determination. They have clarity, for the lives they have lived will do that to you.
Some of the most wonderful people in my life were refugees and some of the biggest ‘dickheads’ weren’t.
loading...
Bless them also for some still have hope, empathy, love for others, unlike some of the racists.
loading...
The sad thing is that it would be so easy to stop the boats. All we have to do is allow people to seek asylum closer to home. Create a real queue. Create havens closer to the trouble spots where asylum seekers start running. Bring them here safely. Help them BEFORE they are forced to leap onto a boat that wouldn’t be safe in a swimming pool. Too easy. And yet, apparently too hard.
You can see this idea in detail at http://lindamciver.wordpress.com/2010/12/17/the-drowning-of-compassion/
loading...
But that still doesn’t address the issue of people who wish to choose where they go. Going to a haven closer to home would mean you are at the mercy of the UN as to where you are settled clearly many people don’t want that even if you shorten the wait and make the camps make habitable, people would still take the journey onward to places like Britain and Australia because they specifically want to be in those countries.
loading...
I’m not talking about UN processing, I’m talking about Australia actually setting up genuine queues close to the trouble spots. You want to come to Australia? Talk to us, if you meet the criteria we’ll send you there ourselves. Cut out the middle boat, so to speak.
loading...
They pay five to ten thousand dollars a head to get on a boat and get a place ahead of other asylum seekers who have been waiting in the queue for years, that’s not fair. So a BIG NO from me.
loading...
ah, the elusive ‘queue’…
anything to back this ridiculous notion up with? like some facts maybe?
now that you’ve passed comment on this topic, i suggest that you do a little research.
loading...
They queue would be the one where people who are in their country of origin or another safe country and have put their applications in and are waiting for them to be processed. There is a queue of applications waiting to be processed then the boat people come here and end up in detention centers and because the lefties cry out about how inhumane it is that we shelter, feed and protect them we have to process their claims first so people waiting in other countries for their applications to be processed are essentially knocked back down the queue. So you see if you actually think about that issue it’s not really that hard to see what’s going on is it?? Hmm maybe it is….
loading...
Which countries have these queues?
I’m sure the administration system in Iraq is very reliable…
loading...
Oh my goodness are people really this ignorant??
Let me try and put this really, really simply for you:
The UN estimates there are millions and millions of displaced people around the world.
These people will be applying to other countries to live there, thus creating a queue of applications.
Boat people come, they are put in detention, lefties cry bloody murder, boat people get preference.
Did I explain it simply enough for you?
loading...
okay, so there’s an information kiosk in each refugee camp? really? who provides the staff and admin support for these info stalls? who determines the order of this queue? according to need or who got in line first? so they keep their place in line for 12 months like they’re lining up for green day tickets? who approves the applications? is it like the deli in Coles? get a grip, smug dick.
loading...
Ok so you disagree but do you have to do it in such a mean way? Your posts reads like you’re doing nothing but putting down the original poster.
And the “smug dick” comment was that really necessary? When you descend into name calling, it just makes your whole argument and post appear childish and to be not taken seriously.
The fact is that there are people overseas who DO go about applying for asylum the old fashioned way of putting in an application, of going to UN camps and applying that way. There are thousands in Africa seeking asylum here via camps and they wait while people who board rickety boats get granted asylum over them.
Call it a queue, call it applying via the “correct” channels, call it whatever you want to but there ARE people who are being granted asylum over people who have been waiting ALOT longer and why? Because some choose to cross open seas on boats barely sea worthy and by doing so, they tug at the heart strings of the people in the country they are trying to seek asylum in and they get granted asylum faster than others.
loading...
That would be the UN deary…
loading...
Interesting article. His second point tells us how desperate these people from Iraq and Iran are to get to somewhere safe but fails to address the fact they ignored several countries a lot closer that are signatories to both UNHCR conventions and seek asylum there.
Point 3. Boat people is a general term for people on boats because most of the time the nationality of them is not known and there are lots of different nationalities on the boats. It’s not disingenuous, it’s a general term for people from an unknown background that are on a boat.
Point 4 shows complete ignorance. He fails to recognise the impact that letting more and more people in will have on essential services like power, water, health services as well as our welfare system that are all already feeling strain. Migration needs to be severely cut back but that would also allow an increase in humanitarian migration. 25% of Australian’s were born overseas, let’s assume half of them are eligible for work, so that’s 12.5% of Australia’s labour force was born overseas. Now consider that they make up 33% of the unemployed, just a bit disproportionate. That answers 5 as well I guess.
In point 6 I’m not sure whether he’s trying to completely discredit himself or not. Yeah Britain has taken in a lot more refugees than us, and now look at the basket case that it is. Also Tanzania…ROFL…I think that’s all that needs to be said about that.
loading...
“Yeah Britain has taken in a lot more refugees than us, and now look at the basket case that it is.”
Refugees caused the GFC?
loading...
OH I could not agree with you more
loading...
Where did I say GFC?? Look at their society, how many ethnic enclaves they have, how many ethnic gangs they have, how much racially motivated crime they have. They have sooo many problems over there if it wasn’t so serious I would laugh my ass off. And look at their social services suffering huge strain. Anyone with half an idea would know this.
loading...
I’m not a mind reader. If someone refers to Britain as a basket case, I immediately think of the GFC-related problems. (And the current snow havoc, but I thought that even a bigot wouldn’t blame that on refugees.)
loading...
Oh you really have no idea.
England is the example Australia needs NOT to follow. Unless you’ve lived there, you simply have no idea unfortunately.
loading...
What a stupid comment!
Talk about jumping to conclusions!
I live in the UK and I can positively say that the UK is a basket case due to massive migration over the past 20 years. The new govt has just reduced migration but I’m afraid it is too late, the horse has bolted.
If you lived here you would be horrified by how over stretched their services are. I have the fly at the moment and the earliest appt at the GPs I can get is for 2 weeks! This happens every single time you are sick. The NHS (National Health Service) is completely over worked by the number of people now dependent on it.
All fine and well to say “let em in” but seriously, it takes a massive amount of infrastructure to support a population growth.
loading...
Re Aaron – such an incredibly bigoted attitude. You must get off on the tough talk of people like Tony “turn back the boats, turn back the boats, turn back the boats………” Abbott.
Really, how is your life impacted in any way by asylum seekers coming here? Don’t worry, you will probably never have to see one, let alone talk to one. The points you raise are the same broken record of narrow minded, xenophobic drivel that they will take our jobs, end up on welfare, crowd our hospital etc.
Count yourself lucky that we lead a very privileged existence in this country because we were all fortunate enough to either be born here or emigrate here (probably from a country that had a very good queuing system in place).
loading...
Well Patrick if when you say “bigoted” you mean informative and factual then yes.
I never said they would take their jobs, really if you’re going to accuse me of something make sure I actually did it first. If anything I demonstrated that there is a disproportionate number of people that were born overseas and are unemployed.
Our hospitals are severley lacking, I suppose technically they’re not overcrowded because most will just send you home or shop you around to other hospitals but what do you think is going to happen when we let more people in that require hospitals yet we don’t train enough doctors and nurses to make up for the ones we lose to retirement or jobs overseas and we don’t get any through migration because immigrations time is spent checking out boat people? That’s why I say cut normal migration in half, bring in only those that we need through normal migration and then you can increase humanitarian migration.
So unless you want to actually address what I said instead of prattling off something that looks like you would cut and paste in replying to someone of my view, I suggest you go and live in your narrow, uninformed world in silence
loading...
Why is it that the ‘strained resources’ crowd never appear anywhere advocating population caps – y’know, birth rate control? No reffos, but have as many ‘dinkum’ babies as you like, bugger the water supply or strained infrastructure, they’re proper Australians, at least. Gives intolerance an air of contemporary relevance – “i don’t resent reffos, i just worry about sustainability….”
To say nothing of ‘respectable’ illegals from Candada, UK, Holland etc who overstay visas ‘take our jobs, places in hospitals AND our womenfolk’ cos, hey, they’re reputable and white and PAID their way into the country…..
loading...
I for one do believe we have population issues, who that population is, is irrelevant for me. We have limited water supplies, many scientists, uni professors etc are saying we are already overpopulated and need to reign in our population.
loading...
Birth rate control isn’t a path that we should go down, China has done that and it really isn’t anything we should even consider.
Having said that population can be controlled much better by controlling migration. Let in less people, only let in those that are skilled in areas that we need, and make sure that they will have a job when they get here.
And who said visa overstayers are respectable?
loading...
Hospitals? Is it asylum seekers fault now that hospitals aren’t funded?
/sarcasm
I know where $43 billion could come from. Rather than sway bogan voters with faster pirated movie downloads, divert some billions from the never pay for itself NBN to help settle asylum seekers and fix hospital funding issues at the same time.
loading...
Enough of the sarcasm, you don’t need to resort to it or the insults, doesn’t help what you’re trying to say
loading...
The media has fed you false information that they try to create a story out of
loading...
sorry – our hospitals are seriously lacking? By who’s standards? what a load of rubbish. On any measure, we are up there with the very best in the entire world. And if you want some facts….
‘In 2008, the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare looked at how our health has changed in recent years compared to similar countries overseas. Between 1987 and 2005 our health outcomes moved into the top third of the OECD. On life expectancy and mortality indicators, we’re at or near the best in the world. On self-rated health — how healthy we feel ourselves to be — we moved close to the best in the world. We made substantial progress pretty much everywhere except on dental health, where we went backwards significantly — you don’t see too many tabloid headlines about dental health — and in our nursing workforce, where we went from near the the top of the OECD to near the back of the top third. Ah, but what about hospitals themselves? While one of the Rudd health reforms is focused on extending and standardising hospital performance data, we’ve already got some basic indicators of performance from the AIHW. In the period between 2004-05 and 2008-09, we spent just under 6% more each year on public hospitals in real terms. The number of doctors employed has gone up 8% pa, year after year, since 2004-05; nurses by over 4% each year and allied health professionals by 4%, although the numbers fell slightly in 2008-09. Non-admission treatments, including accident and emergency, rose 3.5% every year, about the same rate as admission treatments. That represents an increase of about 1.3% every year in treatments per 1000 people. At the same time, hospitals have become slightly more efficient, spending a little less on each treatment each year, partly because the average length of stay has fallen slightly — Australia is well below the OECD average when it comes to length of stay in acute care. In 2006, we had 3.5 acute care hospital beds for each 1000 people — just below the OECD average but more than US, the UK, the Canadians, the Danes and the Israelis and about the same as the Norwegians (the OECD has a great comparison of key health stats here). So we’re some of the healthiest people in the world, we’ve been increasing the amount of money we spend on hospitals, employing significantly more doctors and nurses (one of the reasons health and care has become the biggest-employing sector in the country), treating more people and our hospitals are becoming more efficient, and are very efficient compared to the OECD at getting people in and out of hospital. All for a country that spends just under the OECD average on health.’
But shit yes, I reckon a couple of thousand refugees are definitely causing the system to fail.
loading...
@ Patrick – I think i love you
loading...
Great writing Rick, i will be visiting your blog !
loading...
It’s seems some people actually believe that you have a choice where you are born. And why would anyone choose to be born in “one of them loser countries”.
Sigh.
loading...
Gee, I wonder why the big ex prime minister Malcolm Fraser turned his back on the Liberal party? Maybe he didn’t like what little Johnny did?
loading...
As of Dec 2010 (under Labor) there are currently 889 children under 18 living in immigration detention facilities around Australia (442 are unaccompanied minors). This is the highest ever number of children in detention in Australia – the previous high was 822 under the Howard Government. Source: http://www.asrc.org.au/campaigns/1-get-kids-out-detention/
loading...
You’re missing the whole point. I know the system is not ideal but at least the current leaders do not lie about children overboard, in order to secure political gain.
loading...
Let them come here freely, lets accomodate them in homes , and give them access to our social security and allow them to live in peace and harmony.
loading...
Thanks Mia and Rick for this. Excellent round up and makes clear and concise points.
I’ve worked with an organisation that supports people of all kinds for 5 years (the Salvos – bless them!) and they support everyone from domestic violence ‘refugees’ to the homeless to those who wind up in detention centres (or living in our community ‘unknown’ with no support).
I have struggled over the years to try and educate my friends and neighbours that it is not so simplistic as ‘legal and illegal’. no one who is living a free existence would get on a dodgy boat, risk their lives and that of their family and know they’re more likely to end up in a detention centre if they did not have a genuine reason.
We in Australia are so lucky for our freedom. as a general rule anyone seeking asylum does not have freedom. full stop.
So thanks Mia and Rick for extending the understanding.
And thanks for the new server – super speedy – love it!!!
loading...
Excellent article, the problem is that I suspect on this forum he is largely preaching to the converted. What is needed is a less sensationalist and more responsible reponse to refugees from the Australian media and some real action from the federal government to clear up misconceptions. My heart breaks for these people who have to flee their homes. Have a little compassion people.
loading...
Do these Gig and Doug people have nothing to do but spend all their time staring at the comments section?
loading...
Not one person has stood up with an argument, rather than just an opinion. I have commented on this thread for a few days now. Doug has begun commenting with recent reports, yet not one person has been able to answer, even debate the issue. It’s all obfuscation. It’s all, as he says, what you feel, not what you can justify with reason.
A pyjama party. This isn’t a blog about what women think, it’s a GenY pyjama party. If you’re really serious, address the issue that was raised by Rick’s silly post. Seems you’d rather hold a pity party for all who wish to live in Australia. Some of you offer ‘billets’. That is bizarre. Clearly you have no knowledge of history as pertains to immigration. Perhaps you could adopt a refugee child, while the parents stay in detention. A decade later you’ll be accused of taking a ‘stolen child’. As I say, no idea of history. Be careful what you wish for.
And rather than this blog sliding down the slippery slope to being ‘Dolly’ comments, why not stand up and justify the fact that the government gives you a vote?
loading...
I don’t come here looking for an argument. I come here to read and consider the opinions of others. Shooting down others who hold a different opinion to yours is just plain argumentative.
loading...
Thank you, I agree. Bordering on bullying here Gig, just because we don’t agree with you?
loading...
I must have missed the part where Gig set the rules for who can comment and how.
I enjoy the way discussions unfold on this blog and hope it doesn’t change. I didn’t have a solution to offer, just questions and a comment sorry for being unworthy of talking to.
loading...
Yes I must have missed that too! But then I am just an old Dolly reading Gen X er FEMALE lol
I love this blog too, I love a good stoush, I just don’t like disrespect!
loading...
Lol Meerkath sounds just like me! I soooo wanted to be Alison Brahe!
loading...
Rofl, hang on, you might just get crucified for that comment too!!!! We are just suckers for punishment I suspect lol, good on you xo
loading...
Ha, ha – Love a kindred spirit MK!
loading...
Didn’t she end up married to one of the Daddo clan ?
loading...
I’m impressed Bradley!
And the answer is yes – she married Cameron Daddo.
loading...
Lol Bradley, yes she did, had a clan of kids and still in la la land lol. Still jealous hehhee.
loading...
“I must have missed the part ”
I think I also missed the part where he provided a solution.
loading...
I understand that passions can run high on this topic but it’s uneccessary to be dismissive of alternate opinions. Keep it nice please.
loading...
The wonderful thing about so many opinions expressed by contributors to this site is that they are formed not only on the basis of reason but upon those values which are assumed in all cultures as raising us above the level of animals: compassion, tolerance and human decency.
In the absence of these values, cultures and individuals are capable of gross travesties of justice, such as those sometimes perpetrated against asylum seekers. Let us not be one of those who in this season is prepared to turn them “away from the inn.”
“Logic” is such an integral part of the evil rhetoric used in modern times by so many regimes to justify scapegoating of the powerless and violations of human rights and natural justice.
loading...
Jenny, I don’t see ‘logic’ as being an ‘integral part of the evil rhetoric used in modern times by so many regimes to justify scapegoating of the powerless and violations of human rights and natural justice’. I’d suggest that these regimes exhibit a complete absence of logic, and reason, when applying their inhumane actions to their populace. Logic is probably the first step in recognising that bigotry, sexism, xenophobia and other prejudices are totally alien to logical thinking.
loading...
Gig, what these regimes exhibit is a hefty logical edifice based on sneaky but fundamental illogical assumptions. Regime rhetoric is efficiently marketed by shock jocks for financial gain.
Consider the notion of aryan genetic superiority, promulgated by arguably one of the world’s most effective propaganda machines. We now know this pseudoscience is indefensible due to our observations of hybrid vigour in other species. Upon this flimsy erroneous basis, the whole superstructure of lebensraum devolved with its attendant atrocity.
Postmodern theorists such as Giddens have repeatedly demonstrated that logic is inefficient defence against barbarism.
Therefore in the basis of our decision making, let us incorporate our hearts, thereby utilising those values universally acknowledged as of worth in all civilized thought.
We are beings possessing both hearts and brains. Let us use both in any decisions affecting the lives of others. After all the basis of our legal system is that a person is innocent until proven guilty.
loading...
Hang on a minute Jenny – you’ve gone too far now!
You say that “compassion, tolerance and decency raise us above the level of animals”
Steady on a bit – My dogs and cat have plenty of all of these qualities!
LOL!
loading...
I love you guys, but do you ever read what I write, or what Doug just wrote? Or is it all just emotions? All I can say is, answer the questions. Apparently you’d rather come here to listen to hundreds of like-minded baseless opinions on an issue that deserves much more than that.
loading...
Gig, contrary to what you seem to believe, I am not some ignoramus. I actually read the article Doug referred to in the paper today even before it was posted here. Yes it did give me pause for thought. Does it change my already much stated opinion? Nope. Sorry you and he can’t change my mind. Apparantly I now disagree with The UNHCR. So be it. Does that answer your question????
As for reading what you wrote, yes I do. Once I get past your emotions. I just choose not to agree with you. I believe that in a democracy that that is ok:))
loading...
I wonder if you have read what we have written? This is a site in which decent human feelings are accorded the respect they deserve. It is a site on which most participants appear to assume that no one contributor can set the ground rules covering the contributions of others.
loading...
I’m not setting the ground rules. Apologies if it seems like that. I’m asking for an opinion based on fact rather than opinions based on feelings, which, so far, in this debate, have been few, or not at all.
loading...
Gig – Enough with the references to “pyjama parties’ and ‘dolly comments’. Please. That is both sexist and condescending.
Clearly, there are many people who are never going to agree with you and Doug. WHy don’t you both just accept that instead of berating everyone who has a different view.
Comments on this website do not necessarily need to be backed up with a hundred facts or external references. Many of us just come to express how we FEEL about something. And on this subject – many of us just feel wretched and distressed and want to express that.
To not understand or respect that is not, I think, abiding by the spirit of the comment rules.
You’ve made your points. Repeatedly. Enough already.
loading...
I appreciate comments which are backed up by facts and have read posted links with interest.
Unfortunately people with closed minds are not going to be swayed.
Just give up Gig and Doug!
loading...
With the barbarians at the door I guess that you must be right Claire.
Unfortunately Matthew 7:6 comes to mind. Also the expression ‘pissing in the wind’ applies.
So why have I bothered to even try? So now I will stop and the warm and fuzzies will continue.
Claire, thank you for bringing some reality to this discourse (it certainly isn’t a discussion).
loading...
“Australia provides protection for asylum seekers who meet the United Nations definition of a refugee, as defined in the 1951 Convention and 1967 Protocol relating to the Status of Refugees.”
Australia is a signatory to this Convention, and unfortunately, like with most things about the UN, this cannot necessarily be enforced. However, to refuse asylum seekers on baseless grounds, force excessive and traumatic waiting periods for them to be processed, and say nothing as more and more succumb to mental illness, or are forced to relive their trauma is inhumane. You may not think so, and that’s fair enough. But what is the point of ‘providing protection’ if we aren’t going to? You know the number of refugees/asylum seekers come here every year is a small minority compared to who seek asylum in Germany, the US, the UK, etc.? Maybe you should take a politics class once in a while and do some research before demanding people come up with arguments, rather than opinions. If we stand by and let innocent people have their human rights violated, what makes you think it will stop there?
loading...
Gig did you read Vince’s response on the previous page? It was exremely thorough and detailed analysis along with the solutions you have been crying out for. Also don’t be so dismissive of discussion around this topic, calling it a pyjama party doesn’t help the cause. So many of the positions people hold on this issue are based on misinformation that this so called pyjama party is a fantastic oportubuty to share information and mull over a very difficult topic.
loading...
if I remember correctly wasn’t it you Gig that suggested billeting families?
It seems that unless we all change our minds and agree with you and Doug that we are all latte sipping chardy swilling idiots without the intelligence to form our own opinions.
And as for the bible quotes…well we’ve all seen the results of organised religion.
Neither government has a solution. We are obligated to offer people refuge. Yes they need to be assessed but surely we can do this in a more humane manner than we have to date. This is why the call for compassion.
IMO you don’t want a debate as on so many other topics on Mamamia when you comment you merely want to argue and persist with your insults in the hope that you will wear anyone who disagrees with you down.
loading...
1) Obviously processing times need to be made a lot more efficient. People shouldn’t be in detention camps for years. If they don’t pass as refugees as per the UN criteria they should be sent back to their homelands. I dont know the ins and outs of the process but I think 6 months processing time would be an absolute maximum.
2) More funding is needed for organisations like AMES (Australian Migrant Education Service http://www.ames.net.au ). These guys do amazing work teaching English, job search skills, job placements, city orientations etc for migrants and refugees. Also, worksplaces should be encouraged (perhaps financially) to support these kinds of initiatives through placements, mentoring etc.
3) Housing
State housing will need to be provided with low rent, there could be some kind of rent-to-own system which could encourage them to get a job quickly and pay more than the minimum in order to own the place. I also have heard of towns in rural Victoria that would welcome new immigrants as their populations are dwindling. This would be a way of speading the new migrants out, avoiding ‘ghettos’ and lessening the ‘burden’ on populations. Obviously, migrant integration support would also need to be provided to those in rural areas — this would probably need to be developed as most of these organisations are located in the major centres only.
So where will the money come from?
- Well apparently Australia needs more people the pay for the retirement of the baby boomers, refugees could help with this.
- Migrants contribute to the economy, so some upfront investment would surely reap returns.
loading...
Gig. LET.IT.GO!
loading...
As part of the VCE we had to read the autobiography of an afghani refugee (the rugmaker of Mazar-e-Sharif). The author, Najaf Mazari, then came to our school to talk to our year level. This experience made me realize that most asylum seekers and refugees: a) do not come to Australia with malicious intent b) are confused, scared, and unwilling to leave the lands of their ancestors c) do not posses paperwork because it is not a custom or a law in their countries and d) do not understand the concept of queues or detention centre processing as it is not a part of their culture. I feel that it is important for us to receive these people with sympathy and empathy for their plight and the risks they have taken to save themselves and their families. While I acknowledge that for our own security we should screen these people ( because as we know, burqua=terrorist! – sarcastic) we need to keep in mind that they are human and have rights.
loading...
i want to send my kids to your school
loading...
Just an observation re Doug and Gig…….if we don’t agree with your opinions, why do you just assume we are I’ll informed bleeding heart liberals? To suggest we don’t have an opinion purely because we don’t wish to discuss it with you (quite understandably, cos when we do, you just denigrate us anyway) is quite narrow minded. I have read your posts, have digested your opinions, have read your links, and yet, I still hold to my origina l opinion, and have done so without denigrating anyone elses. Just saying:)))
loading...
As Doug and I have explained, and asked, we’d like to hear your views based on something other than the blind allegiance commenters here adhere to. You don’t offer a solution, you laugh at others’ opinions, as if it’s a pyjama party; how silly are they? But when questioned you have no answer!
Doug offered facts, or as best facts that anyone has. Instead, you choose to tell me you don’t like the way I talk, and take the fifth amendment with Doug, as you have with me.
loading...
Never see a need without doing something about it. Very famous quote. I was brought up to believe that and will go to my grave doing and believing that. I am not surprised my your response, but lets try and remember the post rules – debate the position not the person. I have stated my opinions politely, you don’t agree with mine, or anyone elses, and just keep pushing until you get the result you are after. I think that’s called bullying:) that ain’t gonna change my mind, I have already stated my opinions, you just don’t like them. Oh well. Nighty night then
loading...
well said meerkath. i love that quote and certainly try to live like that too.
sleep well x
loading...
An Eleventh thing you need to understand about asylum seekers.
From the UNHCR via the SMH today:
“AUSTRALIA’S immigration detention system is being clogged by growing numbers of rejected asylum seekers who should be sent home, the United Nations refugee agency has warned.
UNHCR regional representative Richard Towle said large numbers of people now coming through the asylum system in Australia were not refugees and ”the challenge is how to find fair and humane and effective ways of allowing them to leave this country to go home”.”
http://www.smh.com.au/national/send-detainees-home-says-un-20101218-191bi.html
loading...
If the stats are correct, it says 50%. Kinda changes the desperate plea to ‘billet’ these people. That 50% wouldn’t want it. They have cash, they want to live their own lives here, they are not desperate as portrayed by the left, they are merely desperate to get out of a poor country. Unfortunately, that doesn’t qualify them for refugee status.
Nothing wrong with wanting to migrate, but there are immigration policies in all countries. It’s not inhumane to refuse entry to someone. It happens all the time, across the world. The comments on this post are horrifyingly naive. It’s not as simple as ‘billeting’ people, or opening the gates; that’s why we have this debacle.
Unfortunately many people here agree with Rick’s humorous post, that denigrating anyone with another opinion, including the government, is somehow edifying. Thankfully a few commenters have stood up to disagree.
loading...
But Gig you seem more than happy to denigrate anyone whose opinion differs from yours.
Looks like a case of do as I say, not as I do.
loading...
Tali, I don’t denigrate an opinion that has any substance to it. Commenters here who acknowledge they have no idea what to do, but simply want to mouth off at people who disagree with them, really do not deserve any respect as far as their opinions go.
loading...
Gig I won’t deny that you make some valid points but your abrasive and rather derisive tone only serves to undermine your case rather than strengthen it.
loading...
But Tali, what do you say about what the UNHCR says?
That is the important thing.
loading...
I take your point Tali. Perhaps you could now address Doug’s reply.
loading...
Doug I’m of the opinion that this is a terribly difficult plight that minds much greater than mine have yet to come to grips with.
And as such I’m just trying to stay as informed as possible while remaining open to reasonably expressed suggestions and different points of view.
loading...
So Tali you don’t have an opinion that you are willing to express regarding what the UNHCR has said? You won’t say whether this informs your views at all?
Fair enough.
loading...
Doug why do you feel the need to press me for an opinion when you are clearly very content with your own?
I’ve articulated my position.
loading...
So it seems that you are content with trying to change others’ opinions, or to criticise them, without regard to facts or references, and without accepting that you may need to question your own opinions?
So what are you actually doing here if you are not seeking to be informed? Have you read into this particular subject at all or are you like the poster who questioned who was going to train the Afghan army without realising that is one of the things that Australians are actually doing in that troubled place?
Or are you here to be a member of some cheer squad for opinions that make you feel warm and fuzzy?
If that is the case, then fair enough, you are entitled to be that way if you want. I just wonder how many voters there are out there who don’t actually look into matters that affect them, and I despair for democracy in this country.
An answer would be simple: Do you agree or disagree that what the UNHCR has said tends NOT to support Rick’s original thesis, and therefore is also not in agreement with Ms Freeman’s opinion?
Is anyone else willing to answer this question?
loading...
I didn’t realise that this was the Mamadoug site and that the topic of this post was “Do you agree or disagree with what the UNHCR has said ?”
loading...
“I didn’t realise that this was the Mamadoug site and that the topic of this post was “Do you agree or disagree with what the UNHCR has said ?”
It’s not BUT everyone has seemed so willing to comment on any stats that Rick or anyone else has put up that is “pro” or “for” the refugees and now that some stats have come to light that perhaps paints a different picture, everyone has gone silent.
Strange that…
loading...
I can’t comment for anyone else but I’d like to think that people take on board all the information that is available in order to form their opinions.
Having said that sometimes “the gut” takes over in lieu of all logic and evidence. I’ve certainly taken this course in the past and will no doubt do it again at some point in the future.
I’m not for a moment saying that this is the right, or for that matter wrong, way to go about things but it happens and all the demands for “appropriate” reasoning will not change that fact.
loading...
Seeing you take the UNHCR’s opinion seriously:
http://www.unhcr.org/news/NEWS/47b04d074.html
“11 February 2008
“One of the most controversial chapters in Australia’s treatment of asylum seekers and refugees drew to a close this month, when 21 Sri Lankan refugees were removed from the tiny South Pacific island nation of Nauru and taken to live in Australia.”
” “Many bona fide refugees caught by the policy spent long periods of isolation, mental hardship, uncertainty and prolonged separation from their families,” Richard Towle, UNHCR’s Canberra-based regional representative, said.”
“”The prompt decision by the new government [of Prime Minister Kevin Rudd] to close the Nauru centre and bring the refugees to Australia is very welcome and shows Australia as a humane society in keeping with its international obligations,” Towle added.”
loading...
Unfortunately the majority of people who need to hear this message probably never will, or will read with a closed mind.
loading...
My father was shot in the war. My mother was dodging bullets whilst she was pregnant with me. My uncle was shot in the head( and yes died). Consequently my parents decided that Austrlia would be a better place to bring up their family.
I am grateful that we were allowed in. I can be the best person I can possibly be because of this. I can do my degree, work and provide my own children with the same opportunities.
Who are the original Australians anyway?
loading...
The Aboriginal people. I would have thought that this sort of education would have been mandatory upon being granted citizenship in Australia. I know my friend who came from South Africa had to learn all sorts of information about Australia, not least who our Indigenous people are.
loading...
I think Najla knew that already, somehow.
loading...
Actually the solution is very simple.
Australia should cede jurisdiction over Christmas Island to the United Nations, specifically the UNHCR, and let them run the place, with monies donated from all those other members of the UN. In effect, grant the UNHCR a 20 year lease, at no rent, over the island, thus removing Christmas Island from Australia for a while.
That would stop the unauthorised arrivals by boat very quickly and encourage people to let the UNHCR do its work where they are now.
loading...
a few definitions that may prove useful upon discussion:
refugee: a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster
asylum: the protection granted by a state to someone who has left their native country as a political refugee
displaced person: a person who is forced to leave their home country because of war or persecution; a refugee.
immigrant: a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country.
illegal: contrary to or forbidden by law, especially criminal law
compassion:sympathetic pity and concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of others
empathy: the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
integration: the intermixing of people who were previously segregated.
stereotype: a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing
respect: due regard for the feelings, wishes, or rights of others
opinion: a view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge
fact: a thing that is known or proved to be true
(all can be found at: http://oxforddictionaries.com/)
and last but not least:
mamamia: an online web community where people who have different opinions can come together to discuss facts with empathy and respect
loading...
As a person that had her own mother come to the country by legal means but had numerous family friends come via boat from Vietnam back when it was sort of easier I still stick to the belief that the proper measures must be taken. My mum spent months in limbo at age 16 not sure of what country would take her when she was made an orphan but those who are trying to sneak into the country are just trying to get caught and because once they are here its hard to send them back and the danger they are putting their family and friends is just terrible. Not going to make any point about once one person comes into the country it means the more legal way of sending for all their friends and family (it happens, see it all the time)
loading...
‘Proper measures’ – so you think that those seeking asylum should go and geta passport from a government that is persecuting them, then line up somehwre in a refugee camp for years on end, with no hope of building a life anywhere?
The people who should be sent home are those backpackers from western nations who come to Australia on tourist visas, wor jobs for cash (and undermining wages and conditions of other workers) and then overstaying their visa.
loading...
Great comeback – was going to reply to Thi but you have done it better anyway
loading...
They are essentially doing that already here, by the time they get an answer they are all messed up, do that in their own country
loading...
Ok, I’d like tell as story… I lived in Sudan and saw first hand the appalling conditions and treatment of the southern Sudanese tribes by the Muslim Government. One of my employees had seen his wife gang raped and child beaten by policemen as he was tied up. He had his home burnt to the ground and his job taken from him. He was run out of town. He walked many hundreds of kilometers in bare feet, sleeping in trees by day when he was stalked by lions and walking by night. Soon after he arrived in Khartoum I met him. What a lovely, kindly gentleman he was. Over many years we helped him to leave Sudan and ‘not jump the queues’ but to apply legally for refugee status in Egypt. This ‘waiting’ nearly cost him his life though. He was beaten many times and was very close to death. One of his sons was stoned by a gang of schoolchildren in Egypt, causing permanent brain damage. His wife once again was raped. Finally after a long hellish wait, the family arrived in Australia. They have settled very well and are a wonderful asset to the community. The parents in their forties, went back to school and university and both have very skilled jobs. They are always giving back to this land which is their new home.
But I can totally see why people will do anything to get here and away from their own country any way they can…
loading...
Don’t want to turn any comments back here please (except for the people who are commenting under several different aliases to make their point sound stronger) but I do want to remind you of the dinner party rules.
Remember to argue the point not the person
Imagine this is a dinner party. Differences of opinion are welcome but keep it respectful or the host will show you the door. If you’re rude or abusive, your comment will be deleted (so will comments responding to other rude comments because they won’t make sense – so save your breath). And if you’re offensive, you’ll be banned. Remember what Fonzie was like? Cool. That’s how we’re going to be – cool. Have fun and thanks for adding to the conversation…
Thanks
loading...
Thank you:)
loading...
Mamamia – I have to say that the level of vitriol and disrespect on this post has left me stunned. We are all entitled to have our say, based on our own experiences and belief systems, but people seem to forget that Ricks opinion post was just that, his opinion. If we agree with him we are referred to in derogatory tones as latte loving tree hugging bleeding hearts, which is blatantly unfair and a copout. There have been many who have disagreed with Rick, and I have respected there posts because they did so in a polite, informed and respectful way. Some excellent points have been raised tnat are contrary to Ricks opinion and have given much food for thought.
however, There are 3 or 4 on here who believe that because they (a) work for the ADF (their choice mind you, if you hate it so much, why do it) , (b) live in a community peopled by refugees and immigrants or (c) think we should just stop the boats, that they have they right to denigrate other peoples opinions and resort to
plain disrespect, name calling and belittling language.
Unfortunately, this is one of those discussion items where we have to agree to disagree, the tone that the posts are taking are really disrespectful to both sides.
I
loading...
If you continue to change your name on a single thread I will continue to delete your posts. Please. If you have something to say we would love to hear it – but from one name only
loading...
I will assume that you aren’t directing this comment at me, Lana.
loading...
Yep, true Meerkath.
There’s been some great discussion on this issue, but unfortunately a lot of the time opposing view points are shot down and not considered.
I made some suggestions earlier that we should do more to assist people to integrate into our community rather than lumping them all in together. I referenced a very informed source. I was told I was ignorant, lacked compassion, closed minded and not multi faceted in my views.
It’s disappointing, but at least I’ve learnt through the discussion, even though I hate to admit it. LOL
The main thing I’ve learnt is that I’m not powerless over this situation. I can certainly do more to make them feel welcome in my community so I can challenge my ignorance and hopefully help them challenge any ignorance they may have of us.
As always the only way to tackle a problem is to start with what I can do to solve it rather than pointing the finger!
loading...
Clairek, thank you, I actually found your original post very informative,and yes it is a shame that people on both sides didn’t show more tolerance. Reasonable debate is always better than name calling LOL! I think we have all been given some food for thougt from some of the more reasonable posts on here;)
loading...
Lets get some definitions right shall we?
For example: When I get caught in a storm I take refuge in a bus shelter or under a shop awning. I then move after the storm. I don’t build a home there.
The people arriving in Australia seeking ‘asylum’ are not refugees. They have no intention of returning. They are not just seeking refuge, they want to stay. They are settlement seekers.
They should be permitted to land, indeed fly them here instead of having them come by boat, and once they have gone through security and health checks be allowed into the community. Arriving ‘without papers’ could be considered as seeking to evade these checks and therefore lead to more extensive and deeper checks into their background.
Now, perhaps they should be allowed to stay for a period of time, to ensure their safety but maybe when the troubles in their homelands is settled they could be asked to return, or required to apply as immigrants. The period of time that they spent in Australia should put them in good stead to meet the requirements of an immigration application. If they use the time wisely, learning English, adapting to Australian law and culture they wll be a few steps ahead of others.
Meanwhile lets take a look at one country. Afghanistan. A troubled country. Australian and NATO troops are fighting, being wounded and dying to try to put that country back on its feet. Meanwhile men of military age, many it seems of fair education, are arriving here rather than fighting for their own country. Doesn’t anyone else see the double standard here? Perhaps Australia should consider not accepting as refugees anyone who is able to fight for their country and who leave western troops to do it for them?
It seems that if your country is dangerous you have too choices. One is to leave, the other is to put your own life on the line to try to bring your own country to democracy and a civil society. Instead, rather than dealing with the oppression, some people run and expect people of other cultures to put their lives on the line and shed their blood.
loading...
Haven’t read all the comments…but came across this one…
Doug said: “The people arriving in Australia seeking ‘asylum’ are not refugees. They have no intention of returning. They are not just seeking refuge, they want to stay. They are settlement seekers”.
How do you know?
Oh and Australia in Afghanistan, who would train these people to “fight for their country”? Us? Come on – do you get it? There is no where to ‘shelter from the storm’ Doug. Maybe they arrive without papers because their houses have been destroyed and they have lost everything.
For anyone to get a protection visa (if I may assume that the people desperate enough to get on a shitty boat for a few months are in fact looking for a protection visa) you have to be on Australian soil. Maybe if we started there we wouldn’t lose boat people in such tragic circumstances. Maybe we would be able to help people before they came here so they aren’t stuck in detention for years.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. No one; no one asks to be born. No one has a say in what country they will be born, what family they will be born into. The fact I am in Australia and my children have access to a doctor when they’re sick, a park when they want to play, can sleep safely in their beds without the fear of war is pure LUCK. Nothing I have done, no education, motivation or inner strength have given me these opportunities. It is luck and as far as I am concerned these people are no different, this luck is something every person should have.
PS Loved the article Rick – can you tell?
loading...
Many of these peope made it into Indonesia ‘with papers’, their papers then seem to dissappear. How do you think that they made it into Indonesia, where there is no common land border with any of the countries from which these people are fleeing and Indonesia?
And the other factors that you mention about housing, medical attention and education etc? Yes, these are a matter of luck. However the final result of your argument is that there should be no border protection for any country, and that anyone should be free to move to any other country that they wish to to improve their luck.
In other words,every country should be reduced to one common standard of living, which will be mean, horrible and nasty. People instead of seeking the common good would simply go somewhere else where the living is easier, dragging the standard of living there down.
If everyone who wanted to come to Australia could simply arrive and settle (and I am not just talking of refugees but anyone) do you honestly feel it would be as good a place to live?
And those who arrive on a boat are not at sea ‘for months’, if you read any of the reports of the recent tragedy at Christmas Island you would see that the boat was at sea for three days. Not months, three days.
And Australian soldiers are in Afghanistan training the locals, most of who are illiterate and have no technical skills, unlike those who had fled to Australia.
see
http://www.treasurer.gov.au/DisplayDocs.aspx?doc=speeches/2010/027.htm&pageID=005&min=wms&Year=&DocType=
loading...
Australians are pretty free to move and settle into any country… why can’t others that really need a place to stay.
loading...
gosh aren’t you the lucky one!
the only comparison you can make the suffering of refugees is getting caught in a storm?
loading...
I am commenting on semantics, which seems central to this thread: legal / illegal refugee / economic migrant asylum seeker / queue jumper legal / unauthorised arrival
So much of this thread depends on semantics. Someone who is seeking ‘refuge’ by definition, is seeking temporary shelter from a bad situation. Those arriving in an unauthorised manner are not seeking temporary shelter.
loading...
From the Oxford Dictionary
Pronunciation:/ˈrɛfjuːdʒ/
noun
[mass noun]
*
the state of being safe or sheltered from pursuit, danger, or difficulty:he was forced to take refuge in the French embassyI sought refuge in drink
*
[count noun] a place or situation providing safety or shelter:the family came to be seen as a refuge from a harsh world
*
[count noun] an institution providing safe accommodation for women who have suffered violence from a husband or partner.
*
[count noun] British a traffic island.
loading...
“When I get caught in a storm I take refuge in a bus shelter or under a shop awning. I then move after the storm. I don’t build a home there.”
And if the storm has destroyed your home?
loading...
Firstly, I’ll say we can all agree that these people are not illegal, we are legally and morally obligated to help, there is no queue and they are not neccessarily terrorists. I get that. I completely agree. All for showing compassion to the needy, from any counrty.
But what I think gets lost in this argument is what we are actually campaigning for. It feels like too many of these comments equate compassion with “quick! let them all in! if you don’t open the doors you’re a heartless bogan!”.
When in reality we need to focus our argument. Make our actual PRACTICAL demands heard. It’s not about being for or against asylum seekers. What we want (I’m assuming this is what people want, it’s not just me??) is to streamline the process. Make it as quick and humane as possible to process the requests for entry.
I think that is what is about, NOT just supporting asylum seekers (or not).
I know the answer is going to be make the
loading...
If my living conditions were so horrific – famine, war, to name but two – and fleeing them were the only option, I am sure even then it would be a difficult decision to make. To leave the place I know as home, to leave people and faces familiar to me is huge. Where we live is part of who we are, to leave it knowing we would most likely never return is bigger than most of us could ever imagine.
Where’s our humanity and compassion, people?
loading...
Epic arguments, good job!
loading...
you know I do sometimes have a problem when it comes to employment….
My huband was looking for a job for 12 months and was desparate. He couldn’t do his trade anymore due to an inury and needed work that wasn’t physical. We were desperate and really struggled financially. Our dream of having children and nice home was shattered.
He tried to get work at a service station, only to be told he had no experience. It was disheartening to see all our local servos staffed by Indians and Pakistanis who were sometimes pretty darn rude. My hubbie is intelligent, friendly and can use a computer.
He tried to get work as a taxi driver. He was told by one job that they would only accept certain nationalities and that if he was this nationality his training and license would be paid for and a job guaranteed. Again I point out how bad some of the cabbies are in my city – poor English, don’t know their way around, etc etc. He knows the city well, can drive well and is friendly and personable.
In these cases he missed out to new Australians which was pretty hard to swallow given a lot of them don’t seem to be doing a very good job at these jobs!
loading...
Okay, I’ve been pondering whether to comment on this post for a while. Then I was about to last night but decided to watch Hot Fuzz instead cause hell, who wouldn’t. Anyways…
I’m sorry your husband was injured. And I’m sorry that he had a rude shock into the employment market these days. HOWEVER:
The reality is that there is no such thing as an unskilled job. Not even at entry level. For anyone. Fifteen year old kids who want to work as baristas at nice cafes but end up working at Macdonalds because the cafe want people with at least two years experience know this. Even in retail and hospitality, there is a definite heirarchy and yes, it does reach pathetically low depths. But it’s there, it was there for a long time before your husband got injured and it ain’t going away.
I have no idea what city you live in and can’t comment on whether its ‘new Australians’ are indeed as bad at their jobs as you say they are. If your husband was indeed turned away from a taxi driver position because of his nationality then by all means go and make a formal complaint to the union or to the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission. I hope that your husband has already found a job and if he hasn’t, do remember than an open mind and a positive attitude are invaluable assets in any job hunt.
loading...
Okay, so I was going to respond with an equally patronising post to yours, but thought I’d take the mature option and be honest.
You are right, there is no such thing as unskilled work, and obviously these people have the skills/experince that my husband didn’t have. We didn’t consider this and I guess we were ignorant to this fact. Thanks for pointing that out.
Let me point out that we were in a desparate situation and staring at a future without children or a home of our own. We were staring down the barrell at bankrupcy and all with him suffering chronic pain (which he still does by the way).
Given the anguish we were going through it was disheartening to say the least when others were working the jobs he desperately needed and some of them were doing a crap job. (BTW not all are crap, we’ve struck up a friendship with a few of them)
Anyway, we couldn’t help but be resentful. We are compassionate people who have helped many others over the years (I won’t go into detail), always worked and undertaken our share of community service.
I really resent your comment about being ‘open minded’ and ‘positive’. You do not know us or what we’ve been through in our own lives or what we’ve contributed to others’ lives. Perhaps you should take your own advice about open mindedness given that you don’t know us other than a few paragraphs on a web site!!!!!!
loading...
Your original post might have garnered more empathy and support had it not unfairly targeted certain cultural groups as causing you and your family resentment.
I’m sorry that you have had a difficult time of it, and that your husband could not get a job. But … does it really matter who has the job? It could be anyone, of any background, and I don’t think it’s fair to single out Indians and Pakistanis or anyone else. What difference did it make to your husband’s job prospects if the servo attendant was Indian/Romanian/Anglo-Saxon?
Your second post (the one that I am responding to) is a bit more reasonable – but, on those facts alone, what it has to do with the issue of refugees is unclear.
loading...
I was not “unfairly targetting certain cultural groups”. I was stating facts. The local service stations in my area are staffed by these nationalities.
This is relevant to Point 4 of Rick’s post, titled “They will take our jobs”. I was simply illustrating that is felt a bit that way for my family.
No, it doesn’t matter who got the job if it wasn’t him, but in the context of Poin 4 I thought it was relevant to the discussion.
What are you doing calling my post “reasonable”? What was so unreasonable about my first post?
loading...
I have no doubt that petrol stations are staffed with people of Pakistani/Indian/sub-continental descent. But it’s not quite as clear-cut as, immigrants took my/our job, is it?
It’s a bit more complex than that, and so pointing out someone’s extraction in the context that you did seems to unfairly place blame and resentment on those people – that was what I found unreasonable.
loading...
You’re right, I don’t know you or your husband or what your life is like. I have no doubt it is frustrating to see people whose ability you perceive to be less than yours employed in jobs you would very much like to have. (Again, another hearty welcome to the world of work and job hunting.)
But as Melbourne Girl has said, I still don’t know why you felt the need to bring up the ethnicity of these people at all. Being bad at your job is hardly something specific to one race, so why does it matter what theirs is? And given that the majority of Indian and Pakistani people in Australia are either first, second, third generation migrants who generally don’t have to apply for asylum in any event, what on earth does it have to do with a post about refugees? Sorry to be patronising, but you were being petty.
loading...
sorry to side track here but what do you mean by ” even in hospitality and retail there is a hierarchy”? are you saying that some one who has a career as a waiter/barista/sommellier and a 15 kid have the same experience and therefore the 15 shouldn’t have to work at Mc Donalds?? Where do you think you gain experience starting in 3 hat restaurants at as a first job?? That learning the in’s and out’s of a menu including EVERY ingredient because everyone is allergic to everthing these days. And learn a 400 bottle plus wine list what everyone of them taste like its grape variety and area or origin. Is that an entry level job?? Given that you seem to have a supremely low opinion of waiters and retail i hope i have you in my workplace one day and i’ll give you the kind of service you deserve. Thanks for making me cranky
loading...
I am not suggesting that 15 year old kids should be working in three hat restaurants, unless they’re first year chef apprentices. And thanks, I actually worked in hospitality for about eight years, starting when I was myself 15 and continuing throughout high school and university. And yes, I did start out somewhere almost as crappy as McDonalds, gradually working my way up to nicer places with better menu’s and much higher service standards.
My original point was, that we do all have to start out somewhere towards the bottom rung of the ladder, no matter what industry we’re in. Clairek seemed to be expressing incredulity that her husband would also have to go through this process, and couldn’t just get any job he applied for without having the relevant experience. I was not saying that hospitality and retail staff are scum- one of my very first lines was that there is no such thing as an unskilled job- meaning that no matter how lowly we think a certain position is, it might be harder to actually secure than we first think.
loading...
I don’t know why I’m even bothering, because you seem to be very closed minded and judgemental.
No it wasn’t ‘incredulity’, I said it was ‘disheartening’ and I was ‘resentful’.
I also didn’t assume he could get “any” job he applied for without any experience. I also didn’t assume it was a ‘lowly’ job or ‘unskilled labour’.
If you wish to quote my post please do so correctly.
By the way, it certainly wasn’t difficult for me to get a job at 16 in a service station when I didn’t have any experience – I guess there’s more competition now isn’t there? It must be those 2nd and 3rd generation Sri Lankans….
Anyway, just I hope you can maybe open you eyes a tad to try and understand why sometimes people can be threatened in employment situations, particularly in desperate times.
I was simply trying to present an alternative view. If we as a country are to tackle our fear and ignorance of other cultures, we need to understand how the fear is bred…and my example is one of these.
loading...
But you still are blaming migrants, or possibly the children of migrants, for your own problems. Were the staff at your local servo supposed to know in advance that your husband would be injured on the job and vacate their own accordingly? You just don’t seem to have any conception that perhaps they have as much of a right to a job as you do despite their status as ‘new Australians’.
loading...
It always bothers me when I walk into places like supermarkets, service stations, department stores and all the employees are Indian or Asian and have difficulty communicating. I have heard of places that only hire asians or only hire Indians and I think what??
loading...
What are you scared off? have you offered to teach these people English, how hard it must be for people who have to know more than one language. You are lucky, show some compassion.
loading...
Who said she was scared??
And you can offer all you like, doesn’t mean they will take you up on the offer.
There are many who can speak English quite well and yet refuse or dislike to speak it in public – which I actually do find a little offensive. Yes bring your cultures with you by all means but we are an English speaking nation and speaking the local language is all part of assimilating into the local community. If I moved to France, Italy, Japan wherever, I would make an effort to learn the native tongue AND speak it in public – practice makes perfect.
loading...
I have not commented on this post, because it’s gotten so narky, but I cannot let what you have just said go. I actually agree that it’s important to learn the language of the country you live in for many reasons.
But you have really puzzled me with what you’ve said. What on earth has it got to do with you what language two people choose to speak to each other in? Why does it offend you? They’re not hurting you. I just cannot understand how that is offensive to you.
loading...
It can be offensive because people that speak two languages have said to me that they Will talk about others in a derogatory manner in public knowing (or thinking) they they can’t get caught. I caught an Italian woman calling me a f*&^ing whore who lied when I challenged her about it but apologized when I told her I could understand her. I was her nurse….That offends me. I’m sure I’m not the only one. It’s not only refugees that do it mind.
loading...
I think you’re imagining things. I can see how smaller, independant specialty grocers would get away with this, but no major retail chain would be stupid enough to hire anyone without a decent command of English.
loading...
I think that you will find that is because it is mainly Indian students who apply for those jobs. Those people are not settlement seekers aka refugees), excepting in that when they finish their education they want to stay.
loading...
*facepalm*
Are you kidding? I work in retail and have more difficulty communicating with stuck-up rich bitches than I do with people from a non-English speaking background.
loading...
Also, it’s hard to imagine an Indian shop assistant having difficulty communicating in English, seeing as it’s one of the official languages of that country.
loading...
What most people seem unable to do is separate the issue of assylum seekers from the very real issue of so called ‘legal immigrants’ who refuse to adopt our culture, who will do our jobs for less money, and who may or may not be organising some sort of uprising to overthrow our government and kill us all in our beds while we sleep.
I for one would like to see our government overthrown, because if I ran the chook raffle at the local bowls club like they are running our country, I’d be in so much hot water I’d probably end up in jail (which according to all media reports is not a bad thing to have happen to you). Our government allows sensationalistic media reporting on any other issue available to take the focus off their own ineptitude and badly timed decisions for us all. Point in case is the willingness to charge our overseas troops for a couple of beers on Christmas day, because apparently we dont have the million or so dollars that would consume of tax-payers money. Of all the ridiculous and nonsensical ways to spend our money, I would have thought this one would get the green light without question, yet it’s the politician’s tax-payer funded jaunts overseas on ‘fact-finding missions’ that get approved without so much as a ‘is this really necessary?’ from the hierarchy. If we’re gonna toss anyone out of this country for having NO RIGHT to be here, or reject anyone’s application based on their ability to render this country jobless and homeless, let’s toss out all those politicians who sit on their leather-chair-cased arses in their flashy air-conditioned offices and make all the wrong decisions on our country’s welfare without once consulting with the people they are supposed to represent. The true danger to us as a nation is not found in a few assylum seekers, it’s in the people we count on to make sensible choices for us.
loading...
Thanks Candice. And I hope it helped even a little bit, even if it was to prompt further reading on the matter. I believe you can still make a serious point using humour.
loading...
Seeing the Christmas Island tragedy unfold was heartbreaking. To be so desperate and take such risks to leave your home country for a land unknown in search of a better life is certainly brave, but I’m sure many people have no idea what they’re exposing their loved ones to and might never have taken the risk if the people smugglers were honest about the conditions they would face at sea and then in detention upon arrival.
We are a land of immigrants. Only a very small minority of us are native Australians and it has taken us hundreds of years to apologise to those who truly deserve to call Australia home. So how can any of us possibly believe it is right to refuse others refuge? But to avoid socio-economic issues the dilemma of integration needs serious attention. I’ve lived in both Australia and England and have seen suburbs in both countries become alarmingly overpopulated by one ethnic race, but is that any different to suburbs in Melbourne and Sydney which became heavily populated by Greek or Italian migrants in the 50s and 60s? And years on, has it done those suburbs any harm, or enhanced the character and cultural flair of those areas?
I don’t know what the answer is, I’m hoping the politicians we elect have the grey matter to manage our immigration and integration policies. And if we don’t agree with their approach, then make yourself heard by voting against them.
Australia has two advantages over the UK:
1. We are a huge land mass and if the Government wish, they can create new townships and areas of industry in country towns that are slowly dying.
2. We are not part of the EU with every Tom, Dick and Harry crossing our border legally to drain our healthcare and education system in the name of being part of the European Union.
The people who make it to our shores suffer unimaginable hardship to get here, can we not reward their bravery, be empathic of their naivity and let them also call Australia home? My paternal great-grandfather was Welsh, my mother is Scottish, I am a child of immigrants – aren’t we all?
loading...
Very well written Michelle, I couldn’t agree more
My paternal grandparents were refugees/immigrants (i’m not sure how best to describe them…) from Holland after WWII, and my maternal heritage stretches back to the first fleet (who were actually criminals!) It seems to me that many Australians have a very short term memory when it comes to their heritage…
loading...
they were called displaced people
loading...
oh, thanks
loading...
Good point Michelle around the Greek and Italian communities in Australia, I didn’t consider that. However these cultures have been here for 50 odd years now and while they have their own communities, they are christian and have similar beliefs and attitudes to Australian culture in general.
Hopefully it won’t take 50 years for the latest new Australians to find their way – and that we welcome them and help them adjust to how we live here. And hopefully they won’t have the negative experiences that migrants over the years have unfortunately suffered in this country.
loading...
culture evolves – Australian culture can also evolve to understand, respect and value the beliefs and attitudes from people that do not share judeo-christian heritage. did you know that over 50% of Australians were either born overseas or have a parent that was? This makes it pretty hard to define “Australian culture”, much less to agree on what would be similar to it. food for thought.
loading...
With all due respect, I question your statement that governments can create new areas of industry in country towns that are slowly dying. I ask for you to give an example of an industry that can be created, and then if you can provide an example I’d ask why successive governments have not already done so.
As for creating new townships, well yes that can be done. But without major infrastructure, forget it. Schools, roads, hospitals and other essential services don’t occur overnight. And if we are completely honest, the money needed to commence any such ventures was spent on pink batts, some dodgy school hall construction and $900 handouts to individual taxpayers.
Then consider how the government has offered a small fortune to get doctors, nurses, teachers etc to move to country towns and few have accepted the offer. If I recall, there was much screaming about how unfair it was to locate detention centres in the middle of nowhere. Now you say get asylum seekers to voluntarily move to the middle of nowhere. Some reward for their bravery suffering through unimaginable hardships.
loading...
625 reposts don’t lie. What Rick was trying to achive is simply to give an understanding to those like myself who don’t really know too much about the situation and the best way in my opinion to do so is the give the facts in a comical light for easy reading. He isn’t saying he has all the solutions to fix the issue he’s simply giving an outlet for those who want to know more and as he’s mentioned give an opportunity for healthy debate. If any of you disagree with what he has written than write your own rebuttle on the points he’s listed …
loading...
I don’t have an issue with asylum seekers and generally agree with Rick’s points. However, while I can appreciate the comical and light nature of the article, I found it all a bit self-righteous and condescending towards the very people he is trying to enlighten.
Even to me, my opinion sounds quite harsh, I’m sure many won’t agree and this comment may very well be deleted but that is the tone that jumps off the page to me.
loading...
In my opinion if the asylum seekers are not criminals (most aren’t) – let them in!
These people are most often leaving because they risk death staying in their own country.
Sure; there is a housing shortage in Melbourne, but there are solutions.
For example – earlier this year I went to Echuca and not too far from there, I saw abandoned hotels. Why couldn’t the asylum seekers live in them?
I think it is fantastic that Australia is so multi-cultural.
I find it great to see both typical Australian towns and also (just an example) towns with many Asian shops.
Asylum seekers are a difficult topic to discuss but I think the key is acting with compassion.
loading...
My last contribution here for this debate as I think I have said my piece above.
I want a debate. I want this issue to be discussed. Opposing viewpoints are healthy, I honestly believe this, but opinions – especially mine but especially those opposite – need to be based on facts. It is all well and good to say I am telling people their opinions are wrong. I am not. I am correcting the factual foundation upon which this argument has been bedded. The arguments above correct the fear and ignorance of people who hold those specific views. And yes, it is ignorant if you believe asylum seekers are illegal because they are not and I have shown this and a quick Google search will also show this.
Opinions contribute to debate but there is nothing to be said for defending incorrect information or ignorance and in some cases hatred. You might have legitimate arguments why you do not want asylum seekers here. Let’s hear that!
Now I m not offering a solution and anybody who claims they can is delirious. What I want to fix is the imbalance of facts presented in the media and the misinformation. The only solution to that is the truth.
And that’s what I wrote.
loading...
I disagree.
Arguments for OR against, yes, need to be based in fact. If you’re going to challenge someones opinion in the form of an argument/discussion, then you need to have your facts correct.
Opinions are totally different things altogether.
loading...
Even though I agree with the sentiments expressed in Rick’s article, I find his arguments lacking in substance, intelligence and depth.
It’s all well and good to express an opinion in a humorous, tongue in cheek manner, but it doesn’t actually help us be more informed, grasp the issues or argue for a more tolerant stance towards asylum seekers in a robust manner.
loading...
Ok so i’m going to be really unpopular but BOTH my parents came here as refugees one was a DP (displaced person) from WW2 at the age of six months old her parents fled their hometown as it became communist and after 6 years or war as fascists they had had enough. They languished in a refugee camp in Genoa finally they were admitted to Australia on the “populate or perish” dictum. They got passage here for free but had to work for the government for 2 years which meant my 2 yr old mother was put in a convent with non Italian speaking nuns, she forgot how to speak her native language. Finally at the end of this time her family shared half a garage with another family because no one would rent to “dago’s with a kid”. They assimilated and became Australian citizens.
Dad was little more civilised, after the US got involved through the CIA dabbling in Iranian politics the hardcore muslims finally got a foothold because the Persian, Assyrian, Kurdish etc peoples or Iran were sick of outsiders meddling. My christian father and his family found their lives a little more restricted and strained so they got out in 1969. Techincally before the Islamic Revolution but already the signs and fear was there, his family had money and their timing was good so he got on a plane, but ultimately he left for safety and political reasons. Now for the unpopular bit, i appreciate the compassion that is required but i’m wondering when are we going to ask questions that are actually helpful?? When are we going to create a stronger infrastructure?? Why do we still all want to live in a 3 bedroom house with a backyard less than 10km form the city?? When or rather why do we not create programs that help immigrants of all kinds to become a part of this country not a separate entity?? When are we going to question what the different religious backgrounds will mean to our society?? When will we make choices for the good of the whole rather than be afraid of what people might think??
I recently read a book called IRAN: My grandfather by an Iranian who now lives in Australia Ali Alizadeh. I thought i knew a lot about what happened in my fathers homeland but i learned more. It is a fascinating book and it illuminates the need for answers to the questions from religious freedom which includes but is not restricted to the wearing of burqa, chador or hejab. Yes we must have compassion and it hurts to know more of my fathers people and by extension i guess my own people, were dashed against the rocks or drowned. All i am truly concerned with is compassion without thought, do we really want them to escape persecution to live in half a garage??
loading...
Wonderfully written Missamoo, and I think your questions are the ones that really need to be asked and answered.
loading...
It was tragic and horrible and should never happen!! But it did! And Everyone is looking for someone to Blame! It was a horrible thing, wish no one on earth would have to deal with that! But we do! Why cant we All learn from this? and try to make sure it dont happen again!
loading...
I get sick of Mama Mia’s one sided articles. I’d like to see topics like this reported from both view points.
My heart is heavy for those who lost their lives and loved ones recently and I think we have a responsibility as global citizens to open our borders to those less fortunate.
However, I must tell you about the suburb I live in. I moved interstate for a few years and have recently returned.
It is now teeming with Iraqis, Afghans, Sudanese and other Middle Easterns and Muslims. We are over loaded with Afghan, African & Asian supermarkets, bakeries, gift shops and even beauty salons. I sometimes feel threatened and a minority in my own suburb. Should I just move?
When I walk down the street I have literally been jeered at by the male muslim population. The Sudanese population have brought their gang mentality which has brought violence and crime to the area. I have done my best to be friendly and welcoming and understand the unimaginable trauma some of these people have been through.
I completely disagree with lumping all of these groups in one suburb together. From my every day observations, they don’t become part of the broader community. A lot of them are a hazard on the road – terrible drivers who never had to sit for licenses until they arrived here. LOL. They’ve formed their own tight knit groups and aren’t learning Australian culture. The Govt should take responsibility for placing them all in the same area, because I think it’s disgraceful and will breed problems in the future which are already brewing.
Call me redneck or call me ignorant, but I feel brave enough to give my opinions after reading Aayan Hirsi Aali’s book, Infidel. She details her own life as a Muslim refugee and the problem in Holland where she obtained refugee status. She shares the same views as I do – and quite frankly is a hell of a lot more qualified to talk about it than I am or most of you.
Maybe part of the solution to allaying Australians’ fears is to help refugees to assimilate into our community so that they can be influenced positively on the wonderful culture and way of life we have here. I reckon it would go a long way to changing Aussie’s minds too.
loading...
Out of curiosity Clairek, but are these people “asylum seekers” or actual migrants?
I would like to think people fleeing their own country out of fear, seeking asylum in our country would not behave so disgracefully.
I understand completely where you are coming from, I really do.
You raise a great point, call me naive, but I’d like to think those way less fortunate than us ie: asylum seekers fleeing out of fear; would give anything to live a normal life, not create problems in the communities in which they’re placed.
x
loading...
I’m not sure Holly, but the majority of them are either in public housing or getting the cheap rent my suburb offers, so I assume they are probably asylum seekers or refugees.
Migrants from 1st world countries would likely arrive with a wad of cash and wouldn’t be in need of public housing.
Yes, I agree they’d love a normal life and deserve it. But…if they’ve grown up in a lawless country that doesn’t even have car licensing and registration or basic infrastructure, let alone police/military that aren’t corrupt, they aren’t going to have the same beliefs, attitudes and understanding of the law as we do. I guess over time they’ll learn the way it works in Oz. I just hope all the ones living near me can get the support they need to get out of public housing, lose their old attitudes and enjoy Australian life!
loading...
All of those problems are a function of culture.
can they leave those bits of culture behind or do we have to learn to live with them?
loading...
Clairek is right. I work in a suburb with a large number of refugees & migrants, as well as aboriginals & islanders and believe me there can be some tension. Have you considered that many refugees who have grown up in appalling circumstances may take a long time to adjust? They may know no other way to live. Also because they are living within their own culture, there is a lot of “pressure to conform” to a particular way of life and many are reluctant to adopt new customs for fear of rejection by their community, which in a new country, with few supports becomes more vital than ever.
loading...
Yes, this is the reality of some Sydney suburbs and the inevitable consequence of accepting refugees/asylum seekers, which as a nation we have an obligation to do.
I have been teaching some of the refugee/asylum teenagers and many despite the money and resources poured into helping them remain resistant and amount to a life of crime. We cannot just pretend that all just assimilate easily into an Australian way of life, while many can and do, a large number remain a drain on our welfare system, are beginning to dominate several suburbs in Sydney and contribute negatively to the community they live in. Take a train out to Bankstown station and experience it first hand
loading...
What you describe of your suburb is what has happened in alot of places in England. Whole towns are now seeing “native” [for lack of a better word] citizens become the minority, which is why the BNP [British National Party] is garnering so much support.
loading...
On the subject of assimilation, I’ve never understood why non-white immigrants are expected to move out of their comfort zone in a way Australian or immigrants from the USA or Britain never are. How many Australian’s have really immersed themselves in our multicultural society, beyond an occasional fondness for pho? How many have real friendships with people of a different race or people in radically different economic situations? Hell, I know a lot of people who only associate with other white, 35-40yr old parents in similar financial situations, who live within a 10km radius and went to the same private school. They are about as closed off to the wider Australia as anyone could be, but I don’t see Today Tonight bashing them for sticking with their own.
Many recent American and British immigrants social circles are filled with fellow immigrants. It’s the same for Aussies overseas. I have a close friend living in London who told me she went 12 months without having a proper conversation with a British person who wasn’t a co-worker. She’s fallen in with a big group of Aussie expats, gotten comfortable, and hadn’t even realised. People sometimes roll their eyes at this phenomenon, but that’s about it. There’s no big push to get them to integrate.
Immigrants should of course abide by our laws and do what they have to to find work eg. learn English, but beyond that I don’t see how them staying within a familar, comfortable, closed off social circle makes them any different from the majority of citizens born in Australia.
loading...
I think issues arise when a migrant race is seen to be dominating a community to the extent where Australian-born residents feel marginalised within their own communities. I definitely understand the desire of immigrants wanting to stick to their own but I also respect that Australian-born residents are resentful of this when they start to see the shops, schools, churches etc that are familiar to them overtaken by a completely different culture. I think there are a lot of advantages to multiculturalism but I think there also needs to be a balance. Once example in the UK is Luton which has a high Muslim population, to the extent where the ‘call to prayer’ is heard throughout the whole community – I can understand why non-Muslim, English-born residents would find that intrusive.
loading...
‘call to prayer’
When I was in holiday in Europe, I often heard (sometimes late at night) the sounds of church clocks & bells. People who live there probably get used to it after a while. Surely it wouldn’t be much different for those who live within earshot of mosques?
loading...
You’ve obviously never lived near a mosque….
loading...
When my uncle was posted overseas, there was a mosque over the back fence of their place and the call to prayer started at 4.30 in the morning or something like that over the PA to the suburb. When we were there we noticed it for a couple of days then just got used to it and slept straight through it. Getting over our jet lag probably helped too.
Lulu, you’re exactly right, its the same as church bells.
loading...
I TOTALLY agree with you. I am originally from Northern England (I have been back 4 times) and can barely recognize the town I am from now. It is all well and good to talk about being compassionate to people less fortunatute and that we should welcome people that need our help but people should really go and have a look at the countries that HAVE done this before they get up on their high horse. Australia is a wonderful place for any culture to flourish in harmony with all the other cultures around it – however, in England, the cultures that have been BROUGHT in to the country seem to be taking over. On my last trip to my home town there were more mosques than churches, more burqas than faces and my cousin had recently had to take a week off school as gangs had been around to his high school to do some ‘white bashing’.
We need to think of the long term…not just let our emotions take over. And I am more than happy for anyone to come to Australia – obviously I am an immigrant, but the people that come here need to be involved in our community, not create communities of their own.
loading...
I would personally hate to see Sydney become like these parts of England. Some suburbs in Sydney are like this already, places change so quickly- even think back to what Sydney was like 20 years ago to realise how quickly an area can change
loading...
Amy? You have now used at least 10 names on this thread. Please stick to one name or I will delete any further comments. Thank you
loading...
I absolutely agree with you. The suburb I grew up in is now completely unrecognizable to me, too.
I’m gonna launch into my own little opinion and story here … My parents are migrants, and my grandparents on my mums side. They came here in the 70′s and didn’t have a fabulous welcome. There was no welfare for them, and no one was holding out the “welcome to australia” banner. But I think (and my mum agrees) that this may have been a good thing in a way – because they HAD to work, to learn about this new place, to assimilate. Sure, when they bought their homes, they moved close to the same nationality because they wanted to be close to their families, just like back home, BUT, they also brought everything they learnt in the workplace and the school system home with them.
They made friends of different backgrounds at work and school – other migrants AND other Australians. And they got to know EACHOTHER, and become a part of eachother’s lives. I’m and orthodox christian – we celebrate christmas on the 7th of January – buy my grandfather would always take us along to his work christmas family picnic so we could be a PART OF IT. We had the tree and the kids got presents so we wouldn’t miss out. My grandparents and parents learnt english – well.They had to really try at that one, and it wasn’t easy. But they still spoke their language at home. They would invite their australian friends and friends of other nationalities over to celebrate our traditional events. It was all about everyone learning about eachother, true multiculturalism. I’m sure it wasn’t easy for them, but it was such a good way for us to grow up. I never saw anyone for the nationality or religion the were – just for the person they were.
These days, however, I feel that the welfare and all the education and housing options handed out to migrants and asylum seekers has made for a very cushy entrance into australia. One where they have the luxury to just hang out together in their little ghettos. I have been told that I don’t get how hard it is for them because I’m and Aussie and Aussies just hate muslims and middle eastern people. I say, maybe they’re just not trying hard enough. Nothing is easy and you have to learn and want to be a part of the country you’re coming to, and be respectful of the people and the laws and conventions of that country, especially one that offers up so much opportunity.
Oh and for the record, my family did not migrate here “cashed up” – far from it. They relied on the charity and hospitality of people they knew from their own country to give them somewhere to live while they worked their butts of to earn the ability to rent, and then one day buy, a home of their own. The people that helped them out all those years ago are regarded as family these days.
loading...
you could not have said it better!!! Agree with you in every sense of the word, government gives out too much, people have got it very easy in Australia and until you live overseas for extended periods of time you don’t realise this! Travelling on holiday does not always give you the same experience, it opens your eyes but not enough.
loading...
I agree, and I think this is a real problem. There is no program to integrate these groups into Australia, so many form their own and have no intention of contributing their culture to ours or vice versa. This type of thing just breeds more fear and ingnorance on both sides. And I’m sorry, things like female genital mutilation should just not be happening here (or anywhere for that matter, but that’s another issue), yet it now is. As part of our immigration program (including asylum seekers and refugees) there need to be a concious effort to integrate them into Australia and ensure they understand the values we hold here, and what and what is not ok. I’m not talking about trying to strip them of their religion or culture, but basic values must be understood and lawlessness should not be tolerated.
loading...
There are programs to help people integrate. Check out AMES for example. Maybe you could consider doing your bit by volunteering?
loading...
I’m curious about your so called ‘Australian culture’. Please define this. Is it sitting in the backyard at a BBQ drinking a beer? Playing cricket in the cul-de-sac? Why should immigrants or refugees do this? To make you feel more comfortable?
loading...
The point of my post was that maybe if new arrivals were assisted to integrate within the community if would break down the barriers between ‘us’ and ‘them’ mentality and remove the fear and ignorance we have of each other.
Do yourself a favour and Infidel by Aayan Hirsi Ali and you may understand.
loading...
Your ignorance and lack of compassion has blown me away. I teach in a suburb that is very much like the one that you have described in terms of its cultural diversity and have been blessed to teach some intelligent, kind and thoughtful students. Sharing an opinion like yours does not make you brave; it does indeed make you ignorant.
loading...
Where has she shown lack of compassion?? Is one not allowed to talk about how they think their suburb has gone downhill. She is stating her experiences. Hell I think my street has gone downhill since the 4 young surfie guys have moved in and party till the wee small hours 3/7 nights a week and wolf whistle at anything in a skirt going by….I can say that it is MY observation. You might teach intelligent, kind and thoughtful people, and you are lucky…however lets not kid ourselves, not everyone we meet is going to be like this, in whatever suburb your in.
loading...
Pick any Murdoch publication and you’ll only ever read Rupert Murdoch’s opinion.
loading...
Somehow, I don’t believe that you will ever read a, “the views of the author may not necessarily reflect the views of management” disclaimer on this site.
loading...
Where does Mia promise to present all possible sides to an argument?
Seriously, if you’re that sick of it, read something else.
You’ve been allowed to express your opinion, (and it wasn’t very multifaceted!)
loading...
With all due respect, I believe that you have highlighted ClaireK’s point with your comment. Basically you have told her, “If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen” or “think differently to me and you’re not welcome around here”.
Regarding any issue, there must be a meeting of ALL minds not just “LIKE” minds in order to reach a satisfactory outcome. Preaching only to the converted is no answer.
loading...
I’m pretty sure I didn’t tell her that.
If the format of this site and the way issues are presented here upsets you, then don’t read it. It’s not about me not liking certain opinions.
Rick has expressed an opinion, Mia expresses her opinion, I do, you do, Clairek does too. Not one of us has presented every facet of any particular issue. That is not how this site works. Contributions are not required to be balanced, just polite.
(I hope I’ve managed to get my point across and fall within the politeness boundries! : -) )
loading...
I did say, “with all due respect” !
Humour me here….what do you think that you told her ?
loading...
I’m totally feeling respected!
I thought I told her to read something other than this site.
I tried to improve my communication by explaining that this site allows expressions of opinions and that being sick of a lack of balance is an inappropriate reaction to the material found here.
I think I’m doing a crap job of expressing myself.
Perhaps I need a red wine….!
loading...
Redballoon…..if we go for a well chilled NZ S-B, some brie and outstanding conversation…all will appear much better in the light of a brand new day !
loading...
loading...
Open the doors. Welcome. Embrace. Support. We have so much here that we can share with those far, far, FAR less fortunate.
COMPASSION.
loading...
So true, but when we run out of water in this country and housing is in distress dont complain…
loading...
What people will have to cut back from 2 showers a day to one?How tragic. We have enough water- we just choose to pour it down the drain
loading...
We actually don’t have enough water…however if you wish to continue to stick your head in the sand…that’s fine.
loading...
When was the last time we had thousands of people die from lack of water here? When was the last time we had mass famine due to the rains failing? We do live in a land of plenty. We may not always manage it well (which is when our own citizens suffer) but we have the resources (money, technology,though not always the political will) to over come problems such as lack of rain and food. When was the last time someone died from lack of water or food in the countries these refugees came from? Probably several have died in the time it has taken to write this post.
If we have more people we will find a way to manage the resources to help these people too. To believe anything else is to give up our humanity.
loading...
Of course, but we have our people here struggling to house in commission homes, people on ten year waiting lists for shelter and you want to add more stress.. Please.. We have water restrictions, are unable to shelter our own. Lets look after our own before we add to the problem.
loading...
Oh crap- we do alright in australia and have basic supports if needed. It isn’t perfect but we live a life flowing in water and food and housing.
We just need to share it and manage it better
loading...
Do you really believe that? 10 years is the average wait for a commission home. My friend works for the department of housing and it is a very sad state of affairs. Struggling families requiring shelter. Lets comfort our own first
…
loading...
What is our own? Just the whites?
loading...
Our people who alread live here.
loading...
Then do something about it. Petition the government, get your voice heard where it matters. Don’t just complain on some forum that no one with any influnce is ever going to read.
We should look after both. Not one or the other.
loading...
Flowing with water? Really? You should visit Western Australia, where they have just had their driest winter on record, with no signs of “normal” rainfall returning anytime soon.
All those “experts” and scientists who say we are already heading into dangerous territory re population and water supply must be completely wrong then eh?
loading...
Just my opionion, i believe you are one of the few making some sense on this topic. I cant believe people’s ignorance to our water supply.
loading...
Oh for goodness sake! Travel out to the bush before you make completely inaccurate and INCORRECT statements like that!
“A life flowing in water”! How disrespectful to all of us living on farms and literally being tortured by drought. Pull your head out of the sand woman!
loading...
I do agree with you that there is drought and water is definitely an issue – but using drinking water to fluch toilets and having out of date ideas of what gardens should be and not treating water as something precious is to me a much bigger issue for water conservation than increasing population size
loading...
Not everyone has it alright.
loading...
YEP …. lets be kind to one anothere guys… TOLERANCE !!!!!!!!
loading...
Maybe the solution is just plain old stock standard compassion. That’s all I’m saying, may not be popular, may label me a bleeding heart (there are worse things to be labelled). That’s pretty much what Rick said. Pretty much what 90% of the posts said or agreed with. Apparantly it’s not a solution though for some. So, my solution? Show compassion, increase our level of refugees and provide them with support, such as billeting them out to families who want to help while a decision on their status is made.
I personally could live with that solution. Gig I suspect you won’t like it, and quite frankly I wouldn’t expect you too, and I wont be losing sleep over it. Just don’t say we didn’t offer a solution. We all did by agreeing wi Ricks post and had you read our posts correctly you just might have been able to work that out for yourself.
There. Not used to being so vitriolic so am signing off for good on this topic LOL
loading...
Crikey, I suggested just that a few comments back…but you didn’t see them…
loading...
redballon, no Rick didn’t have a raft of ideas, I did. That was my phrase. He mocked a swag of supposed bogan ideas about refugees. I got angry about this, because I know it is a misnomer to denigrate this fictional group while applauding his own bleeding heart attitude, yet being unable to offer any solution. Mocking and denigrating without being able to offer an alternative should be considered rather weak.
This is a serious situation, yet all anyone seems to be able to do is cry ‘compassion’.
Yes, our leaders, whether you agree with them, get that. They aren’t monsters. They have families. Perhaps this blog is a good place to mouth off about the injustices heaped on refugees. But all I’m asking for are suggestions of solutions, not whining and crying and hating the government. That’s a pathetic reaction to this problem.
loading...
OK, the ‘raft of ideas’ thing was intended ironically, but I accept that irony doesn’t translate well in text format.
However, you haven’t addressed any of my comments.
I’d especially like to know why it’s OK for you to dismiss people you don’t agree with as: “bleeding heart latte sippers”, but you get terribly upset when said bleeding hearts use the terms “bogan” and “redneck”?
What’s with that?
loading...
“Some people think only intellect counts: knowing how to solve problems, knowing how to get by, knowing how to identify an advantage and seize it. But the functions of intellect are insufficient without courage, love, friendship, compassion and empathy.”
I would happily credit this work to the wise soul that wrote it if only I knew who it was.
loading...
Tali, the quote is by Dean Koontz. Thank god for google LOL.it is a great quote, thank you for posting it
loading...
Thanks Meerkath – it’s a great one huh?
loading...