Q: What do Valentine’s Day and a Pap test have in common?
A: Most women undergo some form of ‘prepping’ or ‘primping’ prior to the big occasion!
Whether it’s Mary Lou, Lady Garden, The Velvet Underground or Vajayay, most of us have a name we affectionately call our most feminine parts. But we’re still shy when it comes to giving them the respect they deserve. It’s time for Australian women to treat this precious part of their body with the same level of TLC they lavish on the rest of their body parts: face, skin, hair, fingers and toes!
Valentine’s Day is a celebration of love, and this usually means romantic dinners and quality time with someone special. But this year, the Australian Cervical Cancer Foundation (ACCF) is urging women to remember themselves this day of love with a caring gesture to their most feminine parts by committing to make a date with their doctor for a Pap test. It’s not quite as dreamy as dinner for two under the stars, but you owe it to yourself.
The ACCF is dedicated to eliminating cervical cancer in Australia and in the developing world. The charity did a Newspoll survey and turned up some interesting facts and figures. Apparently 42% of us have some form of personal grooming planned this Valentine’s Day!
Here’s what the survey showed we women would be getting up to in prep for the annual celebration of love:
– 21% will ‘tidy up’ their bikini line area or have a ‘Brazilian’
– 37% will wax, shave or have laser hair removal treatment on their legs
– 25% will style their hair by visiting a hairdresser or with a ‘DIY hairdo’
– 11% will have a manicure or pedicure
Interestingly, when it comes to our next Pap test date, that figure leaps to 97% of us doing some sort of waxing, trimming or shaving
Before we visit the doc:
– 28% organise some form of ‘downstairs grooming’ – from a trim or bikini line ‘tidy up’ to even a ‘Brazilian’
– 47% will wax, shave or laser their legs
– 29% make sure they have a morning appointment
– 37% select certain underwear for the occasion
– 32% plan their wardrobe for the day by wearing certain clothing
As a GP, and as a woman, I know how women of all ages can be conscious of how they look – particularly when we’re in a vulnerable position, like having a Pap test. I’ve had so many patients who have postponed having a Pap test, usually out of embarrassment, only to return an abnormal result when they eventually get around to it. Then of course they kick themselves because the earlier you detect an abnormality, the better the outlook.
But honestly, when you are the one doing the Pap test, you just don’t notice the state of grooming downstairs. But what I do know is that women feel more comfortable in what is ultimately a bit of an awkward experience if they feel confident about the way they present in that department. And I’m all for whatever makes this experience easier for my patients because Pap tests are so important for a woman’s health.
The cervical screening programme has been running for over twenty years and I was shocked to learn recently that over 920,000 Australian women (that’s 13% of all women in the country) have never ever had a Pap test. And 40% of women don’t go for a Pap test every two years as recommended.
Ok, so it’s not as pleasant as a pedicure, a facial, or a body wrap but it could save your life. A Pap test is the best way to find the early stages of cervical disease, which could one day turn into cancer if left undetected or untreated.
By setting a Pap test date around Valentine’s Day, it’s is an easy reminder and a great personal commitment to yourself. Personal grooming is a special priority for many women on both occasions, so it means you’ll already be feeling and looking great, and the experience will be done and dusted for another two years!
For more information, check out the following links:
Australian Cervical Cancer Foundation
Australian Government’s National Cervical Screening Program
Comments
79 Comments so far
I have a pap smear every 2 years and all my vaccinations. I understand there is always a small risk, but would rather take the risk than have un-diagnosed cancer or an infectious disease.
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What’s with all the anti-pap smear, anti-doctor and anti-medical profession comments? Is this the new anti-vaccination bandwagon? If you don’t want a pap smear, don’t have one. But don’t pretend they are dangerous and some con by the government, medical profession and big pharma.
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I agree. For a few minutes discomfort to make sure everything’s OK? For most people that has to be all it is. I find them disgraceful and as bad as anti-vaxers too.
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Liz, I’m Dutch and your comments are correct. Australian women are being told to have too many pap tests and that’s why too many of your women end up having unnecessary treatments on the cervix. I know a lot of Aussie women who’ve had these negative experiences, but not that many Dutch women have these treatments or get abnormal pap tests. We don’t screen women before they are 30 (although a few women test earlier) and then only every 5 years. There is talk we will start HPV testing as the first screen in about a year or two and the women who are positive for the virus…a pap test will be recommended to them every 5 years. Those negative for the virus, won’t need pap tests. I was lucky enough to have a HPV self test at 30 in another country and was negative, I’ll test again at 35 and again I’ll self test, it’s more comfortable and just as reliable. Most Dutch women in the future won’t have invasive testing, only HPV positive women will have a test every 5 years and stop when they test negative for HPV.
It is a better system, I can’t understand why your doctors recommend all of these pap tests, it’s unnecessary and I think it ends up hurting many women. It’s also an uncomfortable test for many women.
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I met a woman with an agressive cervical cancer when we were both in our early 20s. She was in hospital having treatment for the cancer that had spread to her spine and I would imagine that unfortunately, she passed away a long time ago.
I wouldn’t be comfortable waiting until 30 for my first pap smear, HPV test or not.
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I am in Canada where women face the same pressure to have paps as women in Australia do. I found Dr. Mansberg’s post patronizing and grossly insulting. To suggest that a pap is the same as preparing for a night out is to trivialize women ‘s genuine concerns about the safety and even the necessity of this invasive procedure. One seldom ends up with a hysterectomy after a brazilian wax.
I have never had a pap and never will as I have looked at my risk factors and know the chance of benefit is low. This is in spite of constant pressure from my doctor who is eligible for a bonus if government targets are met.
To all you Aussie ladies; keep up the fight!
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Mary, our doctors also get target payments for pap testing. We over-screen here, seriously over-screen, guaranteeing very high over-treatment rates. More women are working out you don’t “need” pap tests, they’re a choice and no one should be having 26 or even more pap tests, that’s just ridiculous. (and harmful)
Yet women here are still being told to have that many pap tests. (2 yearly from 18 or 20 until age 70, some start even earlier) More women have worked out this is bad advice that risks their health and more doctors are thankfully, finding a conscience and properly advising their patients, so what does the program do? So with the fall in the screening rate, what does the program do…make immediate changes to protect women from harm…no, they increase the target GPs must reach before they can get their target payment, now 70% of eligible patients is the target. Women here are viewed as targets, not competent adults. Of course, men are not treated in this way.
So we’ll get more pressure in the consult room; Papscreen have always encouraged opportunistic screening anyway. Heads should roll, we are putting women at risk with serious over-screening, we do everything to maximize risk for no additional benefit – just keeping day procedure full of healthy women. IMO, our program has never operated for women, it’s always over-screened and has remained unchanged despite new evidence over the years. Someone is benefiting from all of these unnecessary pap tests, biopsies and over-treatment, but certainly not women. The silence from our doctors is concerning…and more than that, we get this sort of article…enough said.
It’s the trusting women who suffer, most of my colleagues, family and friends have made informed decisions about screening and do not follow the outdated and harmful Australian program.
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when I was 22 I had pain in my ovaries (I have endometriosis) I was told by the stupid nurses and stupid doctor at the time that I “have to have a pap smear” so I had the degrading embarrassing unecessary procedure because I didnt know better. I have had one partner since 17 and he was a virgin as well so my chances of cervical cancer are zero and no before you say anything I dont buy into the “what if he cheats?” shit how about the medical professionals give us informed choice. Every time I got to a new GP and they start their “pap smear is important” shit I get them to admit that there is a zero chance of me getting cervical cancer I usually say “when I am hit by lightening we will talk about it”-why do I have to be lumped into everyone else’s risk category?
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Kris2040…it may not be uncomfy for you, but that 5 minutes is hell for me. I was sexually molested when i was younger. I do not like strangers down there, period. I don’t like doctors, or pretty much the entire medical profession. I have found one good doc in my life and he is an ER doctor. I have never had a doctor tell me the stats. I wasn’t even informed there was risks. Nothing. I have never been asked if this is what i wanted. According to the makers of the pill. All you need is a blood pressure test and a medical history on file. That’s it. I don’t know about you but I don’t go to the gastro when I need to bowel movement and I don’t go to the obgyn because my period started. So why fix what isn’t broken? If woman asks for these tests great! If not, great! It’s about choice. The choice that’s taken from us because we are women. If you think for one second this kind of testing would stand if a man had to do it, you’re crazy. My husband even said, if they had to skin scrape or rectal exam for condoms there would be anarchy and pandemonium. Men wouldn’t stand for it but were forced to do what a doctor says? Why? It’s nothing short of insulting. I am educated, well rounded, and very intelligent. I refuse to believe my bc and my cervix go together. I’m sorry you feel people are using irrelevant arguments, but I’ve had a pap forced on me before, doctor held me down and everything. Did I just dream that up? No. I ‘had’ to get it done. As if doing a pap smear every year is going to prevent you from abnormal cells. By scraping your cervix, they are tearing delicate tissue, by doing so, they have created abnormal cells. Look at a scar, if you have one it’s easier to look on yourself. The skin grows different because of a cellular abnormality. So it is literally a matter of time before a test comes back abnormal. And then there is a .65% chance I’ll actually get this cancer in my lifetime?! That is a terrible statistic. No offense to doctors but you guys are nuts. Why not annually screen everyone for heart, lung, kindly, intestinal, pancreatic cancer? They are much more common than cervical cancer.
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http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/why-im-saying-no-to-a-smear-7577967.html
Article written by a GP that may interest some of you.
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Great more women are questioning the excess in our program. Most women don’t need pap tests, only those at risk and that means HPV positive at 25, and ,many countries don’t think of testing before 30. HPV infections are more common before 30 and almost always clear on their own.
We have a program that has not been changed and is now a dinosaur by international standards. Most women having biopsies and treatments don’t need them, they’re being over-treated and a simple HPV test would confirm that…but our program is never critically examined and have you noticed how sensitive they are of any criticism? There has been no pressure to change our program, most women accept the story provided by Papscreen and doctors and it is a STORY and enormous profits are made from over-treatment. This cancer could be almost wiped out if we changed this program and we would avoid sending all of these poor trusting women for cone biopsies and laser treatments. I tested for HPV in Singapore, I’m negative and will never have a pap test. If I change my partner or suspect infidelity, I’ll test again for HPV. My doctor here told me HPV primary testing would be unhelpful and that I’d still need pap tests, that’s not true but it’s the story being put around by the Governement and doctors and yes, it’s another story. Your HPV status is very important and would exclude most women from pap testing. Women would know for sure whether they could be helped by pap tests. The advice we get here is to protect the pap testing program, it comes before the health of women and as far as I’m concerned it’s about protecting the profits and interests of lots of people and using women in the worst way. It baffles me when I read the garbage that’s produced by our doctors, no information, just fluff and repeating the “story”. I don’t have much respect for these doctors and our program is a disgrace.
Kathy and Prue, sorry to hear about your ordeal, but these experiences are more common that most women realize; no one talks about the negatives with this program.
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I don’t know why I missed this post earlier in the week, but here’s my experience.
I went for my two-yearly check. My result was abnormal and I was referred for a colposcopy. The gynaecologist doing the colposcopy could ‘see nothing abnormal but that didn’t mean the nasty cells were hiding out of view’ – and he promptly booked me in for a cone biopsy.
So off I went to hospital, perfectly healthy.
Ten days later, four litres of blood transfused, two days in intensive care, drains, drips, self-administered morphine, scarring and two children that nearly lost their mother. That was the result of my biopsy.
What happened was, during the biopsy my cervix would not stop bleeding so it was ‘packed’ with gauze and I was kept in overnight for observation. When removing the packing, through my vagina – which was an horrific experience – I massively haemorraged through my cervix. I was rushed to emergency surgery to save my life. Last thing I remembered was the surgeon saying ‘we’ll leave your ovaries so you won’t go into instant menopause’….
Well, a little cone biopsy turned into a radical hysterectomy.
And the final insult – when the path report came back there were absolutely no cancerous or pre-cancerous cells on my cervix at all.
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Oh, Kathy, I am so, so sorry that you went through that. I hope that you are going ok now, and have some support.
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Thanks Pygmygirl
It was almost two years ago and I’m okay now – well healed.
I was very lucky my child-bearing years were done and I had two healthy sons – what if that wasn’t the case and I lost my ability to have a baby for absolutely nothing?
I’m not against pap tests – but think every two years is too soon. I hear of too many stories about women having invasive procedures when there is simply nothing at all wrong.
There has to be a better way.
Thanks for your kind words – it is appreciated
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Yet we never hear these stories from Papscreen, do we? Only the women who didn’t screen and got cancer or women who did screen and still got cancer, but they don’t mention they were screened women. Is that a dishonest way to behave? There is a better way, follow the lead of Finland and as mentioned in other posts, the Dutch. I think it’s clear doctors here are not doing the right thing by women.
Your story is one every woman should hear about, they are all for awareness with screening but have nothing to say about all of these women having these treatments and some even end up losing babies or like you, almost losing their life! It is wrong, wrong, wrong to paint any cancer screening as mandatory, perfectly safe and reliable. Every test has the potential to harm us and especially with this test when the cancer is on the rare side and the testing inaccurate and performed every 2 years. Why should Finnish women only need 7 pap tests but Aussie women need 26 or 30? Why should Dutch women need 5 HPV tests or even less, but Aussie women need all of these pap tests and are not even checked for HPV first?
I want answers to these questions, I think we all deserve answers to these questions. Kathy, thank you for sharing that awful experience, my heart goes out to you. I think every woman should hear your story, the other side of this screening program is kept very quiet. Once again, isn’t that dishonest? Thank you to Prue too, another aspect of treatment rarely mentioned, losing our precious babies or having early babies. Pleased your daughter is doing well.
To the knowledgeable posters: Is there any research on how many women are negatively affected by this testing? if not, why not, when the numbers affected seem very high?
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No one said to me this could happen.
They said surgery involves risk – well, we all know that – but THIS sort of risk? Death? From an abnormal pap? Even the tiniest risk should be explained – but the gyno said nothing to me. The numerous times he visited me in intensive care and in the ward, he said nothing except ‘you were lucky’.
Every time I have a shower I see that scar. The skin around it is still numb. I can’t believe how close I came to dying and leaving behind two children still in school. And for what?
The stats on Finnish and Dutch testing procedures are news to me – in fact they make me furious. I never realised we were being over-tested here – at least that’s how I see it now.
Thanks for your support Julianne
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Kathy, the more I read, the more I feel a bit sick and scared.
Reading through some of the medical journal references on another thread on Mamamia posted by Mary and a few others is eye opening. I’d love them to comment but it seems like the GP/gyn could have tested you for HPV and if negative you’d know you had nothing to worry about. No HPV means you can’t have cervical cancer. If HPV primary testing is unavailable here, why is that the case? We test women after these treatments, when it makes more sense to test before. A simple HPV test will rule out surgery for lots of women. If you’d been positive, you’d have to consider that after you’re told the risks of surgery, but if negative, you know you’re fine. One article said women should not have a pap test at all unless they’ve had a positive HPV test and are at least 30.
Are we doing these operations on lots of women without checking them first for HPV? Why?
Kathy, if I were you, and I’m serious, I’d speak to a solicitor.
I think you have a case, you were not adequately advised and I think when doctors know a simple HPV test rules out cervical cancer, but choose not to do it, that’s negligent. (If they say it’s not covered by Medicare, they should give us the option of paying for it ourselves) It makes no sense though to pay for a cone biopsy, when they could pay for a HPV test that will rule out the need for the cone biopsy!
It’s unacceptable to do these surgeries on women when they know most women don’t understand they have other simple options or that risk from false positives could be reduced with less testing. I think your GP risked your health with 2 yearly testing and even though I don’t know how abnormal your results were, if you weren’t tested for HPV before surgery, you should have been, and that may have meant that no surgery was needed.
I think the situation Aussie women face is very serious. I think your doctor should be feeling he’s lucky he didn’t have his backside sued off. I wonder whether his advice would have been different if you had been his wife.
I have a horrible feeling doctors feel free to do these treatments when there are easier ways to rule out cancer without exposing us to awful risk. It also makes me furious that he’d say you’re lucky when he’s possibly done an unnecessary surgery that nearly took your life! He’s probably relying on you and the rest of us being unaware there are better ways of ruling out cervical cancer.
A lawyer will know a doctor who can reliably review your file. (Slater and Gordon, Shine Lawyers, Maurice Blackburn – the personal injury/medical negligence lawyers) I fear some doctors cover for each other, especially on this subject, but lawyers will know how to go about it.
I think a letter from a few lawyers might be enough to change these practices, more women need to review their cases if they’ve had normal cone biopsies. Surely they’d be concerned as more women work this out that all of them might sue? I wonder how many women have gone through these surgeries unnecessarily because of over-testing and doing surgeries without checking first for HPV. I know we have one of the highest over-treatment rates in the world. We must change things here, this seriously risks our health.
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Julianne, I do have the HPV virus – it was diagnosed years ago so I assume it was on my file when I was sent for the colposcopy.
As for suing the doctors, it was two years ago so too much time may have elapsed. I was researching on line and the uncontrolled bleeding I had is a very small but known risk – however this risk was never explained to me – I was only told of the usual risk of surgery (anaesthesia etc.)
Medical negligence is a risky thing to sue for and could end up costing me a fortune as the doctor could say ‘well, I explained the risk’ and I wouldn’t have a leg to stand on as it’s my word against his.
Yes…would he do this to his wife? I wonder.
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Kathy, most women clear the virus after a year or two. I wonder whether you were still positive before this surgery. It would be an easy thing to check first before putting women through these surgeries. Personally I don’t think any woman should have a pap test unless she’s positive for HPV and at least 25.
I know legal action would be daunting, but even a letter to the doctor might be enough to scare him into doing the right thing by women in the future.
I spoke to a woman in my office this morning. She was lined up for one of these treatments after an abnormal pap test, but she knows she’s HPV negative after using Tampap in London last year and she hasn’t had sex at all since that time…that means she can’t have a new infection. She questioned her doctor about that, she then backed down and said she probably didn’t need the treatment after all. This woman has decided not to agree to more pap tests unless she takes a new partner and has a positive HPV test. What is happening here? Could this be about profits? If we only do paps and biopsies on HPV positive women, the numbers having screening and treatments would drop by a large margin.
I read that at 40 only 5% of women are positive for HPV, yet our doctors will say all women who have ever been sexually active and have a cervix need 2 yearly pap tests, but 95% of 40 year old women are HPV negative and don’t need pap tests and all of these women risk false positives and biopsies when they have pap tests.
This could be the stuff of a class action. I won’t be taking advice from an Aussie doctor that’s for sure.
Hope you continue to heal and recover Kathy and thank you for sharing your experience. You may spare many women from the same fate by making them aware of the risks and prompting them to ask more questions or get a second opinion.
Doctors will sometimes say we must test or we need a test before we use the Pill, this isn’t true, it’s like a doctor telling a man he must have a colonoscopy before he gets Viagra. This testing should be our decision.
I think maybe sexist attitudes have changed the way screening for women is viewed by doctors.
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Lots of young aussie women have cells removed after abnormal pap tests, yet in Finland no one does, because they don’t test women before mid 20′s or 30. Some women will ask for a test at 26 or 28 but the official start age is 30. If the aussie testing program is saving all of these lives with these treatments, why aren’t young Finnish women getting cervical cancer or being diagnosed with advanced disease at 30? Instead they have less cervical cancer than any other country. I won’t even think of testing before I’m 30 and will do some reading first and ask lots of questions. I also saw a bit in the paper here a few years ago that said these early treatments were harming young Aussie women and the program should be changed. I think there is something in that but no one speaks candidly about this testing. I was transferred to Helsinki by my employer. I’m pleased that made me aware of all this extra testing and treatments that aussie women are having, otherwise I’d probably have joined them by now.
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Kris2040 where did you get the idea that only ‘doctors’ can read and analyse scientific papers? In obtaining my philosophy degree, some of my course work is related to bioethics which means researching and deconstructing scientific papers, understanding their methodologies and use of statistical analysis, which is not difficult for a person of average intelligence to understand. I agree googling articles loosely based on research does not authenticate a good debate and I think you’ll find most of the people posting on this forum are not substantiating their arguments from google articles, peer reviewed papers are being cited.
And you seem to be committing a few logical fallacies of your own; strawman, appeal to authority, slippery slope… Oh dear! Why not have a look at the research referred to and then come back to us with your considered opinion.
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“I find it interesting that you and your zealot mates use so many strawman arguments and are happy to feed the fear of something that actually isn’t much to be scared of. Your posts almost seem like they’ve been copy pasted and just had my name put in to make them “personal” when disagreeing.
I stand by your concern trolling, and still put you in the same basket as anti-vaxers and HIV/AIDS denialists.”
Sorry Kris2040 but I just had to comment on this.
For the LAST time READ MEDICAL JOURNALS – The British Medical Journal , The Lancet etc and see that what THEY are saying is what the posters here are saying. These are not “strawman arguments”. These are arguments by the experts in the field. Read “Screening” by Angela Raffle. Read “Over diagnosis” by Gilbert Welsh. Read, read, read and then come back and then make an intelligent comment.
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Thank you for the information Niki. I want to reassure you that some women want more information about this test and have been looking for it for years and keep hitting blank doctors’ faces.
I had an early pap test, I was told it was necessary or I couldn’t have a prescription for the Pill. It was abnormal and that started a chain of events that ended in the loss of some of my cervix. My results were normal and after being fobbed off by three doctors I was finally told it was a false positive result, probably due to my age and using a new brand of condoms. I got the feeling doctors were covering for each other.
I avoided testing after that and found a doctor who’d give me the Pill with no exam but I always got a patronising lecture. I hated those consults, begging for the Pill with no breast exam and pap test and often they add another exam where they feel your uterus and ovaries. The things women go through to get the Pill.
I got pregnant in 2006 and lost that baby when my cervix failed. A second pregnancy with extended bed rest and a cervical cerclage produced my daughter, born early when things started to go wrong. It was touch and go for her for the first 6 weeks and she has a couple of health problems, but overall she’s doing fine. My specialist was frank with me and said the cone biopsy damaged my cervix. I resent the way I was treated by doctors and what my husband and I went through, also at no time did anyone give me any information about the risks with pap tests.
Thank you for filling in lots of gaps. I don’t have pap tests but If the Delphi Screening test was around, I might use that if it’s accurate. We’re not having any more babies, the risks are too high and a vasectomy means no more awkward consults.
Some women might not welcome your comments, but some of us do, thank you. It’s about time we started talking about this test and the attitude of many doctors.
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I’m so sorry what you went through Prue. Your case is one of the reasons that Informed Consent about pap smears is crucial. And by Informed Consent I mean explaining ALL the sides of pap smears, including the fact that you have a much greater chance of a treatment for an “abnormal” doing you more harm than good.
Thank you for sharing your story.
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Thanks Anon, I think more women should speak up with bad experiences but if I hadn’t pursued doctors about my test results I’d probably still think I had pre-cancer and would have gotten cervical cancer in a few years time. I think many women are led to believe that’s the case and that’s not something we should have to carry through life. All women should push until they get a clear answer.
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Prue, it’s terrible what you went through. I am glad that some of our comments have helped. At no stage would I ever tell anyone NOT to get checked out, but lots of us out there have realised that cervical cancer is very, very, very rare, and the pap test is not particularly accurate,and the follow on procedures are dangerous. I personally find most doctors attitudes paternalistic at best, and am sick and tired of being treated like a naughty little girl for demanding the best test and care that there is available. Hopefully things are starting to change now that women are finding out the facts about all of this stuff.
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Or rather than “researching” stuff that I’m not trained in, I could listen to experts who are trained in analysis of articles in the BMJ etc and go with what they say, and ask questions of them if I don’t understand something.
For people who encourage questioning, you get really shirty when you get questioned. Just like anti-vaxers and HIV/AIDS denialists.
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A person doesn’t have to be “trained” in order to understand statistics and read all information regarding a subject. Why does informed consent scare you so much?
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Informed consent doesn’t scare me at all. ILL-informed consent, which is what happens when people use doctor google and go off what some random on teh interwebs says rather than their doctor, who knows them and their history from being, you know, face to face? THAT scares me.
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By Informed Consent I am referring to a doctor giving all of the facts regarding any tests, both good and bad to a patient. Men receive all information regarding prostate screening, including the fact that biopsies can cause various problems. Women do not get this information with pap smears; just a “do as you’re told” as this article suggests.
So what you are saying is that you prefer to simply be told what to do without any adverse effects of a test being discussed? That is your right but many of us prefer to know all of the facts. What happened to Prue happens to many women every single day. Don’t they have a right to this information in advance?
If the doctor that wrote this frivolous article really wanted to help women, she would report on the pros and cons of the test instead of this nonsense about grooming ones vulva.
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Lynne, I find it very telling that we have not heard a peep from either the doctor that wrote this absurd piece, or from the ACCF. Obviously they don’t have the stats to back themselves up, and are not game to debate with women who have researched, rather than women that will just agree with everything they say. I asked in an earlier post to the ACCF if they could provide me with both info and stats and have heard absolutely nothing. If they have all this fabulous information at hand, why have they not answered me to either tell me I am delusional, or to acknowledge what I have said and asked for? I find it quite insulting that Dr. Ginny has published the article we have all commented on, but she has not bothered to answer any of our questions, or to provide statistics. Not to worry, from the comments on this article, the tide is starting to turn, more and more women are researching and demanding truthfulness from the medical profession, and more importantly, demanding a better program of detecting cervical cancer.
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Lynne55, it’s quite sad when women who REFUSE to research, or possibly can’t actually read properly fall back on name calling, and rehashing of the same tired old propaganda tactics to try and justify their stance. It’s so refreshing to come across posts that have been written by women who do understand the value of research, and who are willing to share what they have discovered from the Lancet, BMJ etc, which would normally only reach doctors/specialist. It’s amazing how very, very different the tone and text of these articles are from the crap that we get dished up as “fact”. It seems finally the tide may be turning, and women may start to get better, more reliable care than what we have been in the past, since new and better technologies developed for detecting cervical cancer are gaining recognition and thanks to the net etc, these sorts of things are not able to be hidden from unsuspecting women any more. For the women who are unwilling or unable to have the regular pap smear, and for the women who want a reliable way of testing for cervical cancer this is such great news!
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When a custom is normalised within a culture it’s difficult to step outside a familiar territory, and most people really don’t like having their belief systems challenged. Women having pap smears has been normalised as a part of doing femininity, just like removing hair from your legs or applying lipstick, not everybody does it, though it’s assumed that all women will. Throughout the history of science what has been commonly held as truth has been refuted decades later, hence we’ve seen many medical procedures that are now considered unnecessary and dangerous.
Is screening for a rare cancer beneficial?
Could there be risks involved?
If you’ve just heard a compelling argument based on peer reviewed evidence challenging this practice, why would you continue with an adamant denial without reviewing the evidence?
Applying reason and common sense has never really shifted the belief systems of the human herd animal; look how long the ‘dark ages’ lasted! Accumulated evidence may shake a few free to think for them selves, but generally we’ve got to wait for the word of a known authority or a political shift in the tide to change a well established belief system.
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What do yo do when you find pap smears extremely painful and traumatic?
I am due for my next one but I really don’t think I can go through with it. Just reading this article has made me teary.
I haven’t been able to find a GP I am happy with since moving to Melbourne either, so I am a bit lost.
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Can you go to a women’s health clinic?
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Try getting a referral to a female gynecologist. Explain how you feel to her. A pap smear might be a little uncomfortable but should not be extremely painful. Hopefully a specialist in this area can examine you without causing you pain. My gyno is very gentle (and in Melbourne – Dr Bernadette White – Freemasons). I’m sure she would listen to you and not pressure you into anything you are uncomfortable with.
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Hi Anon, I am so sorry that paps make you feel this way. Could you perhaps ask your doctor if you could test for HPV rather than have a pap? If you have read through the other posts you will realise that there are alternatives to a pap if you don’t feel you can go through with it. If you don’t have an understanding doctor, maybe ask your friends/family if they have a doctor they could recommend who is sensitive and understanding. Maybe research some of the other tests that are out there and see if you can find one you are more comfortable with. I hope that you can find someone who can help you, for your own peace of mind.
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We are sorry to hear of the negative experiences that some women have had when having a Pap test. Nobody should be forced to have a Pap test. If you are forced, then this should be immediately reported to the Medical Complaints Authority in your state.
The fact is that the rate of cervical cancer in Australia is so low because of how successful the Pap Testing Screening Program has been in Australia since its’ introduction 20 years ago. An Australian Institute of Health and Welfare Report released last year showed that of just over 2 million women who had a Pap test, 112,000 were diagnosed with abnormal cells (about 1 in every 20 every year). This means that these abnormalities could be treated in the very early stages and thus reducing the need for far more invasive treatment at a later date.
In developing countries where Pap tests are not available, cervical cancer is the leading cancer killer of women and Australia would be the same if women decided not to have Pap tests.
If you are very concerned about having a Pap test then we urge women to talk to their medical practitioner about what other alternatives there may be for detecting whether or not HPV is present and therefore minimise the chance of cervical cancer developing. If you are uncomfortable with your GP performing your Pap test then please find a GP who you are comfortable with or you may prefer to visit a local women’s medical service or Family Planning Association clinic.
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Hi, could you provide us with some of the alternatives to pap smears and where/when they are available in Australia? As stated to Kris2040, myself and other posters here are certainly not recommending women abandon screening, but we are wanting information on other reliable methods. How are we best able to help women who are unable/unwilling to screen with reliable, safe screening? Should we not be doing everything in our power to make sure these vulnerable women are not left to fall through the cracks? Are you able to provide details from some of the methods used in Finland? They have the world’s lowest rates of cervical cancer, and I would like to know more about their screening methods.
Could you please give me the actual stats on how many of the 112,000 women that were diagnosed with abnormal cells broken down into grades? How many were just “abnormal”, how many CIN 1, CIN2, CIN3, etc, and can you provide details of how many with adenocarcinoma were caught early? Can you also provide a comparison table between Australian statistics of cervical cancer incidence and mortality, and Finland statistics of the same? That would be really helpful to see.Thanks!
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“The fact is that the rate of cervical cancer in Australia is so low because of how successful the Pap Testing Screening Program has been in Australia since its’ introduction 20 years ago” .
Not true at all. According to the Australian National Health and Medical Research Council 9 June 2005 report on cervical screening which is available online they say in paragraph 6.11
“Invasive cervical cancer is a rare disease. The annual incidence was below 15 per 100,000
in Australia EVEN BEFORE the National Cervical Screening Program began (see Figure 2.2),
but current screening is detecting some kind of abnormality in about 5000 women of
every 100,000 screened (AIHW 2003).”
You then state:
“An Australian Institute of Health and Welfare Report released last year showed that of just over 2 million women who had a Pap test, 112,000 were diagnosed with abnormal cells (about 1 in every 20 every year). This means that these abnormalities could be treated in the very early stages and thus reducing the need for far more invasive treatment at a later date.”
What the majority of these women are having is false positives.
Paragraph 6.2 from the same Australian government report states that:
“Low-grade cytology reports are very common in Australia. In part, this is because
screening is started at a young age (18–20 years), but it also reflects the short two-yearly
rescreening interval that results in greater detection of transient abnormalities”
Therefore the overwhelming majority of these women would not be needing any treatment for their abnormal smears.
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I disagree with your facts here, cervical cancer was always rare in this country and in natural decline before testing began…it occurred as frequently as mouth cancer, affecting 15 women in 100,000 and now it’s 9 in 100,000, but natural decline is still clearly a factor – more women have had hysterectomies, fewer women smoke, less STD and better hygiene (that last 2 mentioned by Dr Gilbert Welch in his book “Over-diagnosed”) and better condoms.
The fact 1 in 20 women are diagnosed with “abnormal cells” is horrifying – this cancer carries a lifetime risk of 0.65%, LESS than 1%, yet this intrinsically unreliable test together with over-screening results in this massive level of over-treatment. It’s not rocket science – over-screening leads to high over-treatment and that’s harmful. Dr Alex Barrett on the ABC Health Report on Screening referred to our over-treatment rates as “massive”.
Do we intend to wipe out the healthy in-tact cervix in this insane quest to eradicate this rare cancer? It defies common sense….
It is impossible for women to provide informed consent for pap testing, we have never received balanced, complete and unbaised information and many women have hit doctors who do not respect our right to choose…they “assume” consent or pressure/scare/intimidate/mislead and even coerce us – when was your last pap test? You must have a pap test? An elective cancer screening test has been turned into a law and that’s totally unacceptable.
We should have properly advised women and respected informed consent AND withdrawn women under 25 or 30 from our program many years ago and pushed back to 3 or 5 yearly testing like The Netherlands and Finland – countries that have shown some consideration for the more than 99% of women who can never benefit from testing and can only be worried sick and/or harmed by testing…(to some degree – from distress, fear and discomfort through to cone biopsies, cervical stenosis and premature babies etc)
Now there is NO excuse at all – we should be fast tracking in hrHPV primary triage testing and the Delphi Screener – it is beyond unethical to pap test women before checking their HPV status. The situation here is so concerning we’re doing treatments on women and only then checking their HPV status, even though we KNOW HPV negative women don’t need treatments.
I think the Australian Cervical Cancer Foundation should not be protecting mass, inefficient and harmful pap testing that benefits vested and political interests, but demanding immediate change – it is also clear the cancers missed by pap testing are more likely to be prevented by hrHPV primary triage testing and the Delphi Screener. I think the over-use of this test here also shows a deep disrespect for the bodily privacy of women – and a cavalier disregard for our health and legal rights.
You second last paragraph is incorrect and should be retracted – Africa and undeveloped countries have women who carry unique risk factors for cervical cancer and that’s why you cannot compare the undeveloped and developed world. I suggest you check your facts. CC was always rare here and continues to be rare – if pap testing has helped anyone, the numbers would be low, less than 0.45% of women. Our lifetime risk is 0.65%, take out false negatives and consider natural decline and we get down to less than 0.45%. It is simply incorrect to say with no pap testing our rates of cc would match African rates – I’m sorry, but that’s nonsense.
I despair at the misinformation that is provided to women and by groups who should know better, but then you may just be repeating what you’ve heard before, this same “angle” is used by other groups to mislead women and hopefully, scare them into continued over-screening. Not good enough….
Thank you for at least acknowledging that women should never be forced into testing and should report these doctors. We agree on something, but I urge you – if you care about helping women, do your own reading and lobby the Govt for immediate change to this shockingly out of date and harmful program.
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Glad to see the ACCF is finally recognising (to a limited extent) that bullying and intimidation DOES happen in relation to pap smears.
But I would like to see where the research/facts/statistics are coming from that lead you to say, ‘In developing countries where Pap tests are not available, cervical cancer is the leading cancer killer of women and Australia would be the same if women decided not to have Pap tests’, because I’ve been through the actual statistics, and cervical cancer has never been the leading killer of women in any country in the world at any time in history. To say that Australia would be ‘the same’ without a cervical cancer screening program is honestly quite laughable.
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Hi Phoenix, I think they just make up the stats at their flat earth meetings.
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Hi, I am still waiting for some stats from you guys. Can you also provide stats on women that have gone on to have follow up treatment for “abnormal” pap results, and the results from further invasive treatment have come back with no abnormal cells? I guess I won’t be holding my breath.
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Thank you for your comments and interest in this subject. Anyone who is interested will find a wealth of data in the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare Cervical Screening in Australia Report 2008-2009 which was released in October 2011. http://www.aihw.gov.au/publication-detail/?id=10737420251&tab=2
It would be best to talk to your GP, Womens’ Health Clinic or Family Planning Association in your locality to discuss with them the different types of Pap tests and HPV tests and their respective benefits and costs.
The ACCF make no specific recommendations but we simply want women to be comfortable talking to their health practioners about what suits them best.
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You know what? I’m glad there don’t appear to be many people looking at this post, because I don’t get why these people are allowed free reign encouraging not getting pap smears.
I have never discounted people who have been raped or similar being uncomfortable with getting them. But I do take issue with people saying they’re unnecessary when they’re not a big deal for most people to get, even if they’re a bit uncomfortable. Grow up.
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Kris, it is called free speech. Last time I checked, we live in a country that has free speech as a right. Also, we have posted genuine, relevant and research backed information. If you choose to blindly disregard what we are saying when we have provided the links to the actual research by making a sweeping claim about it that’s your problem. If you can’t deal with the fact that there may be a better, more reliable and less invasive option for women, too bad. Your opinion is not the only opinion out there. Why don’t you try reading and educating yourself. If you don’t wish to that’s your choice. The choice you are entitled to have. Just like I am entitled to have my choice. The people on here commenting about this subject are not telling you or others not to have a pap smear, they are pointing out there are other, better options for women that want them. We are not advising women not to look after their health. Maybe you should learn to read before showing the rest of us how ignorant you are.
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Just as it’s my right to express my disdain for you and the other flying monkeys and your posts about teh ebil pap smears.
We actually don’t have free speech enshrined as a right. Check again.
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Kris, if you can’t read facts, I really don’t care, and I really don’t care about your opinion. When you can provide us with factual, researched information, numbers, medical articles from professors and experts and the relevant statistics to back up your ridiculous, antiquated wives tales I may bother to take your opinion seriously. Until then learn to read what we have actually written, rather than misquoting, misrepresenting and slandering us. If you can’t understand or interpret research don’t try to pretend you know what you are talking about. Please don’t bother to show how ignorant you are by trotting out another one of your quaint little factoids pulled straight from a papscreen brochure. Next you’ll be telling us all how fabulous thalidomide is for morning sickness and to put butter on a burn. Or, you know, that PIP breast implants are ok, because the government said so. Or that there is no such thing as Lyme’s disease in Australia.
Have your own point of view, you are perfectly entitled to it, but you may have noticed no one has treated you with disrespect or called you names on this forum, or the other forum where we were discussing this topic. Sadly you don’t seem to have the same respect. Not only are you ignorant and ill informed, it seems when you are threatened by women who are able to think for themselves – you regress into a tantrum throwing 3 year old who can do nothing but call names and spit raspberries. Just because you choose not to use your brain to look past government spin and hype doesn’t mean the rest of us need to jump on board the same train. If you can’t be civil to people with an opinion that has been researched by world experts, go back to your little flat earth club and be quiet about things it’s glaringly obvious you know nothing about. Learn to read while you are there.
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“Grow up?” Obviously you don’t work in counselling. Kris2040 you need to learn empathy and that not everybody thinks like you do. You need to respect that everybody has different feelings about medical procedures and if they find it distressing you need to acknowledge that. You don’t have to be callous.
Seriously, why don’t you actually read the research for yourself? Read the medical journals and read what doctors say amongst themselves. You’ll see that its very diifferent to what is intended to be read by the lay public.
Even though the Cancer Council tells us that we should have a pap every two years, do you know that the Australian National Health and Medical Research Council which I mentioned in my other post and which is endorsed by the Cancer Council actually says that “:The National Health and Medical Research Council, however, recommended that the
screening interval in Australia be reviewed as soon as possible to ensure that the National
Cervical Screening Program is consistent with international best practice.
National Health”
This was written in 2005. They admit amongst themselves (this is a publication intended to be read by doctors) that the screening interval is out of step with the rest of the world but the very same people tell us to have a smear every two years.
The more you read the more you’ll realise how duped you’ve been by the medical profession and I don’t think you’ll be be so vocal in your defense of them the more you know.
And another point I want to make: You still make the assumption that pap smears will save your life. They may or they may not. There is NO guarantee that they will pick up your cervical cancer or your precancer. The test can be inaccurate up to 50% of the time. You are really giving yourself a false sense of security if you think your 2 yearly pap will protect you.
For all the good intentions, no screening test can guarantee that it picks up the disease you are screening for. Unfortunately most people don’t realise that and they are shocked and angry when they still get the disease they were being tested for.
Anyway the choice is yours. Read up and educate yourself or stay here and tell women to “grow up” and call others “flying monkeys”. You don’t really have much credibilty with posts like that you know…
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Who said anything about me being a counsellor? Your strawmen arguments are really getting kind of tiresome with your silly accusations about what I do or don’t think.
But if you have such a problem with being told to grow up and deal with things, you may well need to do just that.
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If the Pap is the gold standard, then the medical industry sets the bar pretty low. What Dr. Mansberg fails to report, is how this test is forced on women, whether they want it or not. You are not offered a pap, you’re ordered to have one. Informed consent does not exist when it comes to women’s health. Why?
Because of the pap, and all of the treatments that go with it, pregnant women are having to have their cervixes sewn shut (cerclage), to keep the fetus inside. Doctors acknowledge this, but, keep pushing those paps.
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UK women are told not to have pap tests while they’re pregnant or for up to a year after giving birth, but our doctors (the ANZCOG) say it’s a great time to give a woman a pap test. They know this greatly increases the chance of a false positive and a pregnancy full of worry and fear or women having invasive and possibly risky investigations or treatments. It’s cruel and we’re relying on these people to act in our best interests with that sort of advice! I suppose they think this is a great time to “capture” women, that’s the word often used with pap testing – coverage is the big factor, but apparently our health and rights are irrelevant. Also, it seems all other options are blocked here by Papscreen and our doctors, my friend used Tampap in London recently. She’s been pressured for years to have pap tests here and always refused, she doubted she’d ever been exposed to HPV. The Tampap confirmed she’s negative for HPV and even though the doctor told her that they still officially recommend pap tests in the UK, this was just to cover all bases until they get the HPV program in place. She tells her patients though not to have pap tests if they’re negative for HPV. She told her to forget about pap tests and if she thought her husband might stray, she could test for HPV every 5 to 7 years. We don’t test women for HPV before doing pap tests, which means most of these women are having unnecessary pap tests and every pap test (especially in women under 25) carries the high risk of a false positive and nasty follow-up. Why don’t we have access to Tampap?
It all seems to be about forcing women into excessive pap testing – for whose benefit?
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Sorry – that’s nonsense about women in UK not having pap smears while pregnant or for a year afterwards. I was encouraged to do both after both my english babies – in fact, I have a seven month old and had a pap smear last week.
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If you look at the Cancer Research UK site they say not to have pap tests while pregnant or for 6 months after delivery. You should make a complaint, you should not have been tested at these times. My UK doctor told me to wait for a year after delivery and my friends received the same advice. I guess some doctors don’t follow the guidelines, which is bad, it could have caused you a lot of worry.
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I just talked to my Dr – it’s three months actually according to the national screening guidelines – and not if you have had abnormal smears, (which I have) – in which case you can have them when you are pregnant. The smear and even a colposcopy are totally safe when pregnant – it’s just that pregnancy can make your results unreliable.
http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/1646.aspx?CategoryID=54&SubCategoryID=130
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I wouldn’t risk it, but then if you’ve had abnormal results, that may be different. You should check your abnormal results were not false positives. A friend had an abnormal pap while pregnant and was then considered to have a history with an abnormal pap, the doctor wanted to do more frequent testing, but the specialist told her to forget the result, the pregnancy and hormonal changes make the pap even more unreliable which makes you wonder why some doctors do paps while women are pregnant. If you can’t trust the result, surely it leads to lots of worry and maybe unnecessary procedures. A pregnancy full of worry is something to be avoided especially when the lifetime risk of this cancer is less than 1%….
I guess we have to find a doctor we’re happy with, but I would have refused testing at these times anyway, even it was recommended but I don’t have any history to worry about…
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So are you seriously saying that you have been held down and had a pap smear done against your will?
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Kris2040, I have been through all my reasons in a different post, as I am sure you know. And when it comes to my 90+ year old Nanna, the answer is yes, she has been given NO choice. She cried, she begged and she pleaded to no longer have pap smears. The doctor told her she HAD to have it. How in the hell does a 94 year old woman fight back? At what point does NO mean yes?
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I don’t believe any doctor in Australia would force a 94yr old woman to have a pap smear against her will. I just don’t believe that.
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This is a deeply personal thing for me to speak about, but since you so obviously don’t believe women are forced, coerced or in any other way “made” to have a smear, I will explain to you what happened to me a few years ago.
I went to my doctor for a script for the pill. I was asked to get on the table. I was happy to have my tummy felt. I was not happy to have a pap smear, had TOLD my doctor on MANY occasions that I did NOT wish to have a smear at any time after deciding they weren’t for me. Therefore, I had not removed any article of clothing, including my underpants. My lovely doctor told me I NEEDED to have a pap smear. I declined. AGAIN. I stated my reasons. AGAIN. My lovely doctor proceeded to try to take of my underwear and force a speculum into me. I REPEATEDLY said to STOP. I REPEATEDLY said I DID NOT want a pap smear. My doctor kept going. I slammed the doctor in the head with a metal kidney bowl, pulled up my pants and left the office. To this day I am TRAUMATIZED by this.
Is this something you find acceptable because pap smears are the be all and end all? I know that you have read my other posts on a different topic, so will not bother to repeat everything I wrote there. Please do not assume that doctors all have our best interests at heart, and please do not assume that I have not researched what is best for myself. The research I, and others, have found is not done by a bunch of tripped out freaks. Dr. Angela Raffle for example is a world EXPERT on cervical cancer – she was the head of the screening program in the UK.
Please stop denigrating my and other’s experiences, and research. Just agree to disagree if you are so violently opposed to what myself and others are saying.
The things that have happened to me, to my Nanna, and to lots of other people are real. I find it insulting and hurtful beyond belief that I have had to write and tell you of these experiences simply because you choose to think that our doctors are infallible and would NEVER do anything awful. Don’t the myriad of complaints make you even stop to think there may be some sort of problem with the system?
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I don’t think pap smears are the be all and end all. I just don’t think it’s a good thing to be doing to encourage people to not get something that could save their lives. And please don’t start banging on AGAIN about low risk etc. Five minutes of mild discomfort isn’t much to make sure you’re safe.
And I still think you’re the same as anti-vax zealots. As I said, you’re encouraging people to forgo something that might save their lives because “you don’t like it and don’t want to”.
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Kris, I’m with Pygmygirl on this. You – and many other women – are completely blind to the fact that for quite a few women pap smears are traumatic, un-necessary, physically and mentally damaging, and in a lot of cases, totally not necessary! It seems that forcing pap smears onto women who have very little chance of ever benefiting from them (and a very high chance of being harmed by them by way of a mutilated cervix and struggling with feelings as if they’ve been raped and assaulted) is the accepted way of handling womens healthcare. And just as is happening here on this forum, any woman who speaks up is slapped in the face with the usual clueless comment of ‘mild discomfort isn’t much to make sure you’re safe’.
We’re not talking about mild discomfort. We’re talking about assault, threats, denial of other NECESSARY medical treatment (such as not being given a script for other medically necessary medications until you strip and spread your legs), women being hounded by phone calls, letters in the mail, and community nurses turning up at womens homes to ‘help them make an appointment’.
I have never had a pap smear and I never will. A rare cancer trying to be detected by an archaic and horribly invasive test that is inaccurate is something I am NOT interested in. I am also disgusted by the stories I have read all over the net from other women who have been abused, assaulted and denied medical care because of the pap smear regime. I’m making a stand. I encourage other women to join me.
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Kris, I have NEVER in ANY of my posts told women not to have a smear. I have actually gone out of my way to encourage women to get checked out if they feel they need to/should/have a problem. What my posts, and others, are saying is that the papscreen associations and government and some doctors are basically FORCING women to smear. There is NO informed consent, and women who do not wish to smear are NOT told the true statistics about how unreliable the pap smear is, and what other, much more reliable tests are available. I, and others, have provided links to ACTUAL research by EXPERTS on this matter. Not research done by some freaked out, mung bean eating stoners with an axe to grind, but research by world experts in cervical cancer and ways to treat it. All we have provided is the tools for women to research MEDICAL JOURNALS, MEDICAL EXPERTS, & UNBIASED research. NO ONE here is telling women NOT to get checked. If you choose to smear – good luck to you, that is your choice and you have every right to do so. However myself and other women who are questioning the relevance of the whole pap smear screening machine have just as much right to research for ourselves, and to tell others about it. I have no issue with a test that is invasive and uncomfortable, even if a procedure is the most painful thing ever invented – if it is the very best way to detect and prevent a disease that there is available, I would bite the bullet and have it done. However when there is legitimate proof that the pap smear is NOT the most reliable way of detecting cancer, when there are other tests that are 50% more reliable, when women the world over are lied to about the potential problems this procedure can cause, when women are denied other treatment or medication if they chose to decline an optional screening test, and when countries like Finland have the LOWEST RATE of cervical cancer IN THE WORLD, yet they don’t test women under 30 due to the huge incidence of false positives in young women, when they only screen women every 5-7 years and ONLY if the women feel they are high risk, and when that same country is going to introduce hrHPV testing as it is more reliable than a pap smear, and will triage women who test positive for HPV and ONLY pap test these women, well, I feel this is something that our doctors need to be doing for us. I want the BEST possible care in the world, I do not want third rate care because our pap screen departments have vested interests in keeping the pap smear system going, rather than giving women the best possible care.
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I’m 53 and have never had a pap test. I decided if I was being TOLD to have pap tests every 2 years of my life up to age 70, I wanted to know what I was agreeing to. The brochure was/is a biased sales pitch for testing and doctors rarely provide balanced information, they’ll warn you about the risk you’re taking by refusing pap tests (in my case, close to zero) but won’t mention the hgh risk WITH testing – 77% lifetime risk of referral in this country. They also rarely mention that the cancer affects 9 women in 100,000 and you can assess your own risk profile. I did my own research and made the best decision for my health.
Now there is NO reason for mass pap testing, women can simply test themselves for HPV if they’re worried about this rare cancer.
Of course, over-screening has created a small fortune for the medical profession and they know if most women could simply test themselves and confidently rule out pap tests – the numbers having pap tests would plummet, it would only be the HPV positive women considering pap testing – negative women might test for HPV infrequently or forget it if they’re monogamous or no longer sexually active. We are talking about millions of dollars and billions in the States, there are many who’ll keep the pap smear gravy train running for as long as possible and with no scrutiny of the program here, no doctors warning women and many women brainwashed into regualr testing – they must feel their profits are safe for another 10 years or so. Women will have to take the lead here and protect their bodies and health – demand hrHPV primary triage testing and the Delphi Screener – that’s also more likely to catch/prevent more of these rare cancers.
If anyone is travelling to Amsterdam or close by, you can use the Delphi Screener or see one of their doctors (if you’re concerned about this cancer) and then you’ll at least know whether there is a small chance you can be helped by pap tests. HPV negative women having pap tests just expose themselves to risk for NO benefit.
Many women will never look at the facts, they are the unreachable women, but hopefully, more women will smell a rat and take a closer look at this testing. The Delphi Screener should be available in several other countries within the next 12 months – and as mentioned elsewhere, UK women have Tampap. Why are all of these measures being denied to Aussie women? If this is about saving lives surely you’d give women access to more reliable options and self-testing. Pap testing everyone including most women who are not even at risk from this cancer suits lots of people and companies and so it will continue until they’re forced to stop.
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Pap smears are not a “black and white” test. It isn’t as simple as you either have cancer or you don’t. The test only tells if you have “abnormals” which is a very large gray area. If you believe that every abnormal would lead to cancer, or even if a huge percentage would, consider this:
Even cancer websites admit that approximately 90% of women who get annual pap tests will experience an abnormal sometime in their lives. If you think all of them would have developed cancer, then it would make sense that 90% of women who do not test would develop the disease which is not the case.
The “treatments” for abnormals LEEP, conization etc. DO carry risks to a healthy cervix. Prolapse is another risk of continually eradicating abnormal cells which may not be anything at all.
It is because of the risks of the “treatments” that many of us do not test.
I also find it interesting that you refer to someone who is giving you data backed with references that you can check out for yourself as “trolls”. Obviously you didn’t check out any of the info provided by those who did some research.
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I’m aware of how pap smears work and what they do and don’t find.
I find it interesting that you and your zealot mates use so many strawman arguments and are happy to feed the fear of something that actually isn’t much to be scared of. Your posts almost seem like they’ve been copy pasted and just had my name put in to make them “personal” when disagreeing.
I stand by your concern trolling, and still put you in the same basket as anti-vaxers and HIV/AIDS denialists.
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sorry, but Angela Raffle was not the ‘head of the screening programme’ in the UK. She was the Public Health lead of screening in Bristol. Very different.
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I understood she was a consultant to the screening program and was part of the review of the program last year when they decided to leave the starting age for pap tests at 25. I heard her being interviewed a few years back and she’s an impressive woman who knows about screening and unlike many who work in screening, very honest. She’s also shot down a few people who tried to scare women by exaggerating the risk from cervical cancer.
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I also was told in no uncertain terms that if I didn’t have a pap I could not get the pill. So what do you think a woman does in a situation like that when she doesn’t want to get pregnant? She submits- but it’s still sexual assaultas far as I’m concerned. I still fell like I was raped all those times. And no I didn’t think to go elsewhere because I thought that it would happen anywhere I went.
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Yet more mis-information and drivel that doesn’t give women any real information about pap testing. Cervical cancer is extremely rare, the pap test is highly inaccurate, doctors receive payments from the government for roping as many women as possible into the cervical screening program, and by following the out-dated Australian screening program we are treating our Aussie girls as mindless sheep willingly having their cervixes mutilated in the cause of ‘just in case it MIGHT be cancer’. The latest hallmark of being a modern woman is having a damaged cervix from so-called ‘treatments’.
Over 90% of all so-called cervical cancer treatments undergone by women are for false positives. Please girls, stop and check the facts before you trot along to the doctor for a pap and feel proud of yourself because you think you are ‘responsible’ and ‘pro-active’ – what you are doing is the exact opposite! Pap tests and cervical cancer screening are NOT the great big wonderful thing for saving womens lives that we have all been repeatedly told it is.
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A UK doctor warned me away from our program 7 years ago and I’ll always be grateful. I find it shocking that our doctors are still telling women to have early pap tests and every 2 years. I don’t understand why they keep following this program, they must know it’s hurting lots of women. They should tell women the truth and demand the government change the program NOW. I don’t think we can trust our doctors on this subject.
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Oh my God, yet another doctor treating us as though we MUST have a pap smear, and that there is NO other option. If you insist on giving us this pathetic, very skewed drivel could you at least include the high incidence of false positives, unneccessary follow on procedures, the rate of false negatives, the fact that the Finns have the lowest rate of Cervical Cancer in the world yet they only screen once every 5-7 years, they DO NOT screen women under 25 – 30 due to the HIGH level of false positives young women regularly return, and perhaps throw in some studies by Dr. Angela Raffle, DeMay, issues about TOTAL lack of informed consent by Dr. Joel Sherman. I may then take whatever other drivel you say the teeniest bit more seriously.
Can you please do an indepth article on the lack of informed consent regarding any sort of gyno procedure in this country, and the reasons why we have lack of informed consent for this type of stuff? I couldn’t care less about the state of my “down there hair”, I care about women being treated as equals by the medical profession and the government. I watch you all the time on Sunrise, and generally liked what you had to say. I am now not so sure. Please research Dr. Angela Raffles studies about cervical cancer and the “machine” surrounding it before just spouting off what the cancer screening bodies want us all to swallow.
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I’d like to suggest that if you want to take care of your health, enjoy and respect your body, first remember that you have the right to say NO and question any procedure or experience that makes you uncomfortable. If having your vagina examined and penetrated feels wrong to you don’t do it. Testing for a rare reproductive cancer is not a necessary part of being a women, you are more likely to become ill from heart disease or lung cancer than cervical cancer, however if you really think you need to screen, use a swab in the privacy of your own home.
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Do we really have to read this drivel? I’d like a bit more information about cervical cancer and pap smears rather than silly stats on the state of our pubic hair. Why don’t doctors treat women like we have a bit more intelligence and give us some info so that we can make up our own minds about pap smears? It’s a bit of a worry when a comment is more informative and intelligently written than the article by a doctor.
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There is so much misinformation on this topic.
Women should be tested for HPV or test themselves before agreeing to pap tests – no HPV means you don’t need pap tests, biopsies or damaging “treatments”. If you’re negative and monogamous or no longer sexually active you can forget all testing and revisit the subject if your risk profile changes in the future. If you’re negative but want regular reassurance you can test for HPV infrequently – no more than 5 times in total. If you’re positive and at risk from this cancer (but still most unlikely to get this rare cancer) you can consider a 3 or 5 yearly pap test. Two yearly pap testing is OVERscreening, which just increases the chance of a false positive for no additional benefit over 3 yearly testing and only marginal benefit over 5 yearly testing. It shocks me that some Aussie doctors mislead women – “abnormal” results, as they know, are common and caused by an intrinsically unreliable test and made worse by the serious and reckless over-screening that goes on in this country. I find some Aussie doctors quite patronising on this topic and it is disrespectful to make light of such an invasive test.
There is no need for most women to have pap tests, 95% of women are HPV negative by age 40 and NOT at risk. Women can also test themselves in the privacy of their own bathroom using the Delphi Screener, already being used by Dutch women and will soon be available in many other countries. (I doubt it will be made available here any time soon!) I’m not sure why Australian women are treated this way by their trusted doctors, but when you know how testing is handled in other countries, you see something is VERY wrong here…it seems to be an attempt to maximize profits from over-screening and over-treating women.
I simply cannot think of any other reason for it. Or, are our doctors too lazy to push the Govt to change this outdated program? I doubt it…
It is well known that over-screening leads to many more false positives and then to excess biopsies and over-treatment and these things can damage your cervix leading to premature babies, the need for c-sections, cervical stenosis, infertility etc There is also virtually no scrutiny of our program and critics are silenced very quickly – what are they hiding? Take a look at the Finnish and Dutch programs and you’ll see why…why do Finnish women have 7 pap tests in total – 5 yearly from age 30 to 60 and they have not only the lowest rates of cc in the world, but also refer far fewer women for potentially damaging treatments? Why do Aussie women need 26+ pap tests?
It has been known for years that women under 30 don’t benefit from pap testing, but produce the most false positives. Don’t take my word for it: take a read of “Cervical cancer screening” in Australian Doctor July 2006 by Assoc Prof Margaret Davy and Dr Shorne.
“No country in the world has shown a reduction in the incidence of or mortality from cervical cancer in women under 30, irrespective of cervical screening. Many countries do not perform cervical screening in women under 30″….
Dr Angela Raffle, UK expert, published her research in the BMJ in 2003, “1000 women need regular screening for 35 years to save one woman from cervical cancer”….the cancer is rare, was always rare and in natural decline before testing began….1 in 3 women under 25 WILL produce an “abnormal” pap test – the pap test picking up normal changes in the maturing cervix or transient and harmless infections.(false positives)
It’s time Australian women demanded some honesty and respect for their legal right to make an informed decison about testing – men are not treated in this way. I want the facts, not articles that patronize and in my opinion, tend to mislead. I sometimes wonder whether our doctors have also just accepted the hype without first doing their own research and getting to the facts.
Lifetime risk of cc – 0.65% – lifetime risk of referral in Australia – a huge and shameful 77% – the number who “might” be helped by pap testing – after you take out false negatives and consider natural decline – fewer than 0.45%
There is NO need to pap test everyone, no need to worry and harm the masses – pap testing should only be offered to those positive for HPV and at risk from this cancer and women should demand access to not only HPV primary triage testing, but the Delphi Screener. We also need an independent enquiry into why our program is more than a decade behind the evidence and why our doctors still promote OVER-testing, inappropriate screening (young women) and mass antiquated pap testing.
We hear the old lines – we’re still doing research – all a bit thin when other countries have always attempted to protect the more than 99% of women who can never benefit from pap testing with sensible screening programs (5 to 7 tests in total) and have now moved or are about to move to more efficient HPV primary triage testing…which will further reduce testing, over-treatment and is more likely to prevent the cancers currently missed by our program. (50% of adenocarcinma and 25% of squamous cell)
We only test for HPV AFTER women have had treatments after an abnormal pap test – yet HPV negative women don’t need treatments, what is going on?
Our doctors should be properly advising us and fighting for our rights and health, not sticking with the screening “story” and protecting a harmful, excessive and inefficient program. They crow about the “success” of our program, but no one mentions the awful cost paid by healthy Aussie women – huge referral rates – huge over-treatment – and most of this damage was avoidable – you DON’T over-screen!
Our health should come before profits, vested and political interests.
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We should all be proud of the Australian cervical cancer screening program. Rates of death from cervical cancer have dramatically reduced since the national screening program. I have two nieces who have had problems with abnormal cells and one who had to have part of her cervix removed. Both were in their twenties. They are full of praise for pap testing.
Young women in their twenties ARE developing cervical cancer, and believe it or not, in this day and age they ARE dying. As the experts say, cervical cancer is treatable if found early, and how is it found?…..through pap testing. Many countries do not have cervical cancer screening and their women are developing cervical cancer and other women’s ‘downstairs’ issues because they do not get screened. So ladies – don’t be a sap – just go ahead and get your pap.
Talk to your doctor or your health professional and consider their professional advice about pap testing. If you are concerned, or scared about having a pap test take a support person with you.
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I am constantly amazed by the number of people who believe that doctors are out to harm us. I know women, one my mother, who had cervical cancer in their early twenties. I know she was older, but does anyone remember Jade Goody?
If we don’t want to have these tests then we don’t have to, all that happens is that we get a letter reminding us it has been over two years.
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There’s not much point arguing with these zealots who are concern trolling, you guys.
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