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monterey2 380x265 The pro life vigil coming to a city near you.

40 Days for Life

UPDATE: After calling the clinic in Sydney, we’ve decided to visit on Monday instead of today, when only staff will be present. We’ll still be live tweeting and will post about the delivery next week.

When two friends in the UK noticed a group of pro-life supporters outside their local abortion clinic silently maintaining a vigil, they decided to act.

A counter protest didn’t seem right – why draw attention to the protesters and further upset women going to clinic? What they wanted to do was something for the people inside the clinic; the staff, and the women accessing services who would be most affected.

They decided on treats. Jaffa cakes, doughnuts, flowers and yo yos. Every day for 40 days they took the treats to the organisation to give something back to the people “that provide excellent services and don’t deserve people on their doorstep being annoying.”

“Let’s make people happy” was the message the two women – Carmen D’Cruz and Liz Lutgendorff – wrote on their website, which they named 40 Days of Treats.

We ran a post about the ‘ultimate act of defiance‘ at the time arguing  that it was one of the best forms of protest we’d ever heard.

So when we heard those same pro-life campaigners – who go by the name 40 Days for Life – would be holding vigils around clinics in Australia from tomorrow, we wondered what we could do.

Answer: bake. Just like the women in the UK, we’re planning to show our support by baking cakes.

More about that in a sec, but first – here’s some info about the group that call themselves 40 Days for Life.

What is 40 Days for Life?

They’re a Texas-born anti-abortion group is preparing to spend the 40 days of Lent praying outside abortion clinics around the world.

They don’t hold signs or megaphones; they don’t wear tents or fight police officers. There’s no chanting or yelling. They stand silently and their intent is to shut down facilities in the name of religion.

According to the group’s website, they’ve undertaken 1633 campaigns in 422 cities. They say they’ve ‘spared’ 5045 lives from abortion; witnessed 61 abortion workers quit their jobs and walk away from the abortion industry; and forced 21 abortion facilities to shut down completely as a result of the campaign.

They staged their first post in Brisbane in 2009, and this year they’re calling for volunteers to man vigils in 7 locations around Australia (which we’ll list further down the post.)

In an article in the Brisbane Times, Founder of the 40 Days for Life Australian chapter Brendan Wong rejected the idea that the group was “fanatical or obstructive”,  saying instead that the methods were “peaceful and focused on prayer.”

This from the Brisbane Times:

Mr Wong said while protesters did hope to convince women entering the clinic to think twice, the protest was aimed at a larger audience.

“We’ve had a few women who have turned around [from entering an abortion clinic] but while really we’re happy for those wins – we’re happy for people to come out and realise the error of their ways – we’re also looking for a broader change of people’s viewpoints on this,” Mr Wong said.

“We’re all about praying that people change their hearts and minds and come to view abortion as more than just another medical procedure.”

Here’s what we’re going to do.

40daysoftreats 380x508 The pro life vigil coming to a city near you.

Co-organiser Carmen D'Cruz with some chocolatey goodies for the staff at one of the British Pregnancy Advisory Service offices.

This is a not a post about the right to life – or even the right to choose. It’s about finding a unique way to show love and support for women who are already going through a difficult time.

Just like the women in the UK, Mamamia’s Publisher Mia Freedman, Managing Editor Lana Hirschowitz and I are going to bake cakes (Chocolate? Vanilla? We’re open to suggestions) and take them down to the clinic in Sydney where the vigils are taking place.

Do you want to get involved?

You can. You don’t have to be a master baker. (I’m definitely not.) Packet cakes are fine. Ditto packets of lollies, biscuits, boxes of chocolates or bunches of bananas. Or flowers.

It’s the thought that counts – the smallest act of kindness can make a difference.

Head to your closest organisation and show your support.

Mia, Lana and I will deliver our cakes to staff and women at the clinic in Sydney’s Surry Hills before the week is out. We will live tweet from the clinic and next week I’ll write about it and tell you all how it went.

If you want to get involved – please do. Take a photo and add it to the comments section.

Here’s a list of where the vigils are taking place. There will be pro-life ‘protesters’ standing by the clinics every day, 6am until 8pm, from February 22 until April 1.

SYDNEY
Preterm Abortion Clinic
Corner Elizabeth & Randle St
Surry Hills, Sydney

MELBOURNE
Fertility Control Clinic
118 Wellington Pde
East Melbourne

PERTH
Marie Stopes International abortion centre
8 Sayer Street
Midland, Western Australia

HOBART
Specialist Gynaecology Centre
1a Victoria Street
Hobart, Tasmania

ADELAIDE
Pregnancy Advisory Centre
21 Belmore Terrace
Woodville Park ,South Australia

BRISBANE
“Dr Marie” Marie Stopes International
(formerly Planned Parenthood of Australia)
8 Campbell Street
Bowen Hills, Queensland

TWEED HEADS
Options Clinic
127 Wharf Street
Tweed Heads NSW

* It’s probably a good idea to give the clinic a call beforehand and give them a heads up that you’ll be turning up with cake icon smile The pro life vigil coming to a city near you.

Ben Fordam tweeted this link earlier today. It’s audio from a story he did from the Sydney abortion clinic about the pro-life supporters who stand outside the facility. Have a listen to what they have to say:

 

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453 Comments so far

  1. Pingback: Why is pro choice still up for discussion? |

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    Hanzeethefish

    Idle Dad, I love you a little bit.

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    I can only shake my head

    Idle Dad, great writing, briliant, intelligent etc.

    pro lifers take note. research makes all the difference, its a scientific fact ;)

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    sweetsparrow

    http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2012/02/22/medethics-2011-100411.abstract

    Two ethicists working with Australian universities argue in the latest online edition of the Journal of Medical Ethics that if abortion of a fetus is allowable, so too should be the termination of a newborn.

    The paper is titled “After-birth abortion: why should the baby live?” and was written by Alberto Giubilini and Dr Francesca Minerva

    Abstract : “Abortion is largely accepted even for reasons that do not have anything to do with the fetus’ health. By showing that (1) both fetuses and newborns do not have the same moral status as actual persons, (2) the fact that both are potential persons is morally irrelevant and (3) adoption is not always in the best interest of actual people, the authors argue that what we call ‘after-birth abortion’ (killing a newborn) should be permissible in all the cases where abortion is, including cases where the newborn is not disabled.”

    Quote: “If criteria such as the costs (social, psychological, economic) for the potential parents are good enough reasons for having an abortion even when the fetus is healthy, if the moral status of the newborn is the same as that of the infant and if neither has any moral value by virtue of being a potential person, then the same reasons which justify abortion should also justify the killing of the potential person when it is at the stage of a newborn.”

    Quote: “The circumstances, where after-birth abortion should be considered acceptable include instances where the newborn would be putting the well-being of the family at risk, even if it had the potential for an “acceptable” life”. (For example: Disabilities, Downs Syndrome, etc): “While the quality of life of individuals with Downs is often reported as happy, such children might be an unbearable burden on the family and on society as a whole, when the state economically provides for their care.”

    Quote: “Both a fetus and a newborn certainly are human beings and potential persons, but neither is a ‘person’ in the sense of ‘subject of a moral right to life’. We take ‘person’ to mean an individual who is capable of attributing to her own existence some (at least) basic value such that being deprived of this existence represents a loss to her.”

    Quote: “Merely being human is not in itself a reason for ascribing someone a right to life. Indeed, many humans are not considered subjects of a right to life: spare embryos where research on embryo stem cells is permitted, fetuses where abortion is permitted, criminals where capital punishment is legal.”

    (The writers of the paper give no indication of what age it should cease to be legally allowable to kill an infant.)

    (There is actually current precedence for infanticide. In the Netherlands it is legal for a doctor to kill a newborn under the Groningen Protocol.)

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    sweetsparrow

    New rights protecting the unborn are coming into effect in Western Australia……

    http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/fetal-homicide-laws-to-be-introduced-in-western-australia/story-e6frg14c-1226281446135

    OFFENDERS who kill an unborn child by assaulting a pregnant mother or by dangerous driving face a life sentence under historic new laws.

    The laws will, for the first time, recognise an unborn baby as a human life.

    The Sunday Times can reveal that Attorney-General Christian Porter is drafting the new laws and will introduce them into State Parliament later this year.

    Under present laws, an unborn baby has no legal status and is not recognised by the courts.

    But Mr Porter said the new fetal homicide laws would create a new criminal code offence of causing death or grievous bodily harm to an unborn child.

    Based on a law already in force in Queensland, it would carry a maximum penalty of life imprisonment.

    Offenders who kill or intend to kill an unborn baby by assaulting a mother will face mandatory life imprisonment – the same as a murder charge in all but exceptional circumstances.

    See Perth Now for full article dated February 25th 2012.

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    Kris2040

    And now that doesn’t make sense as Mike’s posts have disappeared. D’Oh!

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    Anonymous

    I haven’t read any of the comments so maybe someone else has said this already but I don’t know if all the women in the waiting rooms at these places will appreciate people turning up to deliver cake or flowers or whatever. They might want their privacy. Also when I had my termination they made me press a buzzer outside before they let me in. They were only letting in people with appointments, probably to keep protesters out. I think the idea is nice but perhaps not very practical and may just end up causing more hassle for the staff (trying to figure out who wants to drop off cake and who is a protester and who is a patient).

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    Anon

    The pro-lifers near the Surry Hills clinic just told a passer by that breast cancer has linked to abortion! What? I found this http://www.40daysforlife.com/elpaso/index.cfm?load=page&page=159. Is there any legitimate non-biased medial info on this?

    Again, I work right near the Surry Hills clinic. I walk past them a few times a day.

    “They don’t hold signs or megaphones; they don’t wear tents or fight police officers. There’s no chanting or yelling. They stand silently and their intent is to shut down facilities in the name of religion.”

    No, not true! They stand 1m away from the door wearing a sandwich board that says “this clinic dismembers babies”. They stand 3 metres away with a group of signs and proactively walk toward people to hand our their materials and engage with them. It is only on the opposite side of the street that they hang their huge banner and do their quiet praying.

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      Anon

      Sorry, I meant “breast cancer is linked to abortion”. Apologies for the typo.

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      mike2791

      If you don’t give people all the information, then it’s not really a “choice” is it? They do dismember babies in there. Wouldn’t it be better find that out on the way in, when there’s still a bit of time to let the reality of what you’re about to do sink in, than to find out the horrific, irreversible truth of what you just did upon your exit? At least give the women the choice.

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        amyintheworld

        dis·mem·ber/disˈmembər/Verb:
        1.Cut off the limbs of (a person or animal).
        2.Partition or divide up (a territory or organization).

        No, they don’t dismember babies. Because the majority of fetuses that are being terminated are between 6-10 weeks (most around the 6 week mark) and no limbs yet exist. Late term abortions are usually performed by a woman’s consulting doctor as opposed to the woman going to a clinic, because late-term abortion are only performed when there is great threat to the woman’s life, and the procedure is far more than just a simply day-time one like the terminations at this clinic.

        You seem to have made a lot of comments on this thread so I must conclude that you are very passionately pro-life (which is your right to feel that way). However, you seem to be woefully ignorant of the facts of terminations, and I’m getting quite tired of the fear-mongering you have been doing here. Please don’t just regurgitate abortion ‘facts’ that you have picked up from fanatical anti-abortion websites and perhaps speak with someone who had medical knowledge on this subject to gain a better insight.

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          Brendan

          Is your argument based upon semantics? Would it be OK if the sign said “this clinic tears apart unborn babies”?

          The killing of an unborn child is a killing not of a “potential” person, but a human being in development – just like all of us have been and are still developing.

          “Pro-choice” people seem to have a habit of conveniently ignoring this.

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      Nulligravida

      The propaganda from the anti-choicers is that breast cancer is caused by a pregnancy temination (abortion) because the sudden cessation of hormones produced by the fertilised egg and foetus causes changes in the breasts that lead to cancer. This is partially true; there ARE hormonal changes when an egg is fertilised that cause changes in the breasts. BUT in the natural state of fertility, many many fertilisations end in spontaneous abortion (miscarriage). Often before the woman is aware she is pregnant. If it were true that this supposed sudden ceasation of zygote hormones really did cause breast cancer, then both natural and interventional abortions would be equally responsible for this supposed cancer.

      Of course it isn’t true.

      This nonsense is just a feebleattempt by the compulsory birthists’ (anti-choicers) movvement to appear more sympathetic to women, a tactic to fend off accusations of being misoginistic.

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    sweetsparrow

    It’s interesting to scroll through the pro-life facebook groups and see just what a diverse range of Pro-Life people are out there: Feminists For Life, Pro-Life Pagans, Secular Pro-Life, Guys For Life, Black Pro-Life Movement, Fathers For Life, Labor For Life(Australian Labor Party), PLAGAL – The Pro-Life Alliance of Gays and Lesbian, Atheist and Agnostic Pro-Life League. Certainly puts to bed the myth that Pro-Life supporters are all “religious nutters”. There are even facebook pages for former abortionists and Planned Parenthood Directors who deeply regret what they have done for a living and are now exposing what really goes on in the multi-million dollar abortion industry.

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    Cathshadow

    I don’t do cake baking and showing up at the clinic probably isn’t conducive to rational behaviour, but maybe I’ll send a card and a bunch of flowers to the clinic staff to say thanks to all those faceless people who support a womans right to decide. Hey that would be cool – a big bunch of flowers delivered to their door right in front of the silent vigil! Also, some of the clinics are not for profit organisations who work not only as abortion clinics, but also in providing contraceptive and family planning advice and women’s health services, so donations might be welcome. I’ve just made a donation to Marie Stopes who provide family planning, contraception and safe abortion to women in developing countries who can’t get these services. Check out their websites. http://www.mariestopes.org.au

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    jess

    It is a shame so many women feel abortion is the only answer. They need to be aware of the support services available to them.

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      Cathshadow

      It’s a shame so many men feel that unprotected sex is the only answer…. They need to be aware of the consequences of their actions.

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      Elizabeth

      …and what would they be Jess??? What? free all day childcare??? or someone to look after a crying baby when you have to get up and go to work the next day – and um…no sick leave, no leave whatsoever??? or next to nothing welfare?? getting stuck and dependent on that welfare and it’s mindset?? No support??

      It starts before the child is born…check-ups, taking time off being sick etc and no employers wanting even to know about you when you looking heavily pregnant.

      Jess there is some women out there who simply don’t want children. Or it just isn’t the right time. Having a child at the wrong time and circumstances can be detrimental for a woman for a very long time and sometimes there is no turning back…ie falling behind in their career or suitable jobs. That’s the reality.

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        mike2791

        Killing a baby won’t solve your troubles. It will only add another one, and that one will out-shadow all the others you have. There are many thousands of childless couples who will love that child and give them a good home and family.

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          Mackey

          If that’s true mike2791, why is it difficult for community organisations to find foster parents, or to adopt children that are above 2 years old?
          What you neglect to mention in your comment mike2791 is that there are several thousand childless couples who want to adopt a newborn, not an already existing child who would like a good and loving family..

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          KMAC

          Yes Mike2791 it is true that there are childless couples who would love the child unconditionally. But what does that make the woman who’s pregnant? A baby factory? Rent-a-womb? Is it unreasonable to accept the fact that a woman should have the right to decide what happens to her body, not to mention her mind and soul, over the next nine months? Nine months?!?! That’s nearly a year. All to go through child-birth, and then palm the poor kid off to some organisation and go, “yeah sorry don’t think so.”

  12. Pingback: Baking cakes to support abortion clinics | Unsettled Christianity

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    Anna

    I personally am pro-life and don’t entirely agree with these protests. For one thing it should be located at some king of management office not an abortion clinic because I do agree these women are having a hard time as it is. However they aren’t heckling or attacking the clinics so it shouldn’t really be that huge of a deal.
    All that said I do love the idea of protest through cake :)

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    Nicky

    This may have been said already, but if being outside these clinics is not about intimidation and trying to make these women feel guilty, then why can’t the praying be done at home or at a church group? You can’t pass it off as “we are just praying” if you must do it outside these places. Show some respect for these women and say your prayers at home. After all, doesn’t God hear your prayers no matter where you are?

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      trixie melodian

      I think “intimidation” is exactly the right word, Nicky.

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        Nulligravida

        In some states of Australia it can be easily construed as stalking. Which is kinda like, yanno, illegal and stuff.

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    Anonymous

    I posted with a question way back but thought I’d post again as it seems to have gotten lost among all the other comments…
    I’m in Melbourne and for many personal reasons I really want to be a part of this (cake-baking for the staff) – but I am currently 7months pregnant – would it be completely inappropriate for someone like me to show up?? I have no problems with fronting up to the protestors if need be, but I don’t want to upset anyone inside….

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      An Idle Dad

      The recommendation is to call and you can arrange to visit when there are no patients.

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      Eve

      Even though your intentions are kind and well meaning, I would skip it if I were you. The last thing I would have wanted to see when going for my abortion, would have been an obviously pregnant women. Can someone take your baked goods for you or as suggested above, go when there are no patients?

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        Anonymous

        Thanks guys….I’ll sort something out.

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    sweetsparrow

    Take away the right to life and you take away all human rights.

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      hh

      nailed it in one…

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      Dee

      The same could be said for taking away our God given right to free will.

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        guest

        nobody is taking anyones free choice away, the prayers are there to accompany the dying with prayers, much the same as a funeral. The street coucellors who approach the women simply offer them information, suppoprt and alternatives. Nobody is forced to do anything, they are just given the tools they need to make an informed decision, one that they can liv with, that will not come back to haunt them. Don’t let those in society continue to fool you, abortion is exploiting and harmng women – if you are pro-women then don’t let them fool you. researc the effects of abortion

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          Cathshadow

          Sorry ? “the effects of abortion?” I had an abortion 30 years ago and it has neither ruined my life nor left me with deep emotional scars nor had any other negative effects. What it DID do was allow me to go on and lead a highly productive life, gain an education, have a child that was dearly wanted, work as a professional contributing back to society through taxes and mentor many young women along the way, so that they also developed healthy productive lives. Get over your moralising about other people’s decisions. I was neither exploited nor harmed by the abortion. Focus your efforts on where the real social exploitation occurs in the action of the impregnators.

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            Lilybet

            Absolutely 1000% agree with you. You said it in a nutshell. The only children that should be born are the ones who can be taken care of and dearly loved. The ones who will make a contribution to society.

            I had a termination seven years ago and I have not regretted it. Having a baby then when I was temping, heavily in debt, no partner, renting a one bedroom apartment would of only added to my stress.

            There have been no lingering scars. I’m 38 and still single but I could only make a decision based on the circumstances then. Just because a woman is pregnant DOES NOT mean she should go ahead with it. There are too many children born into this world to people who are in the wrong circumstances emotionally and financially. I think there would be alot less child abuse and dysfunction if people were not emotionally manipulated into continuing on with a pregnancy. Having a baby they shouldn’t be having.

            In life we will make alot of tough decisions. Just because my decision was a painful and sad one doesn’t mean it was the wrong one.

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        Anonymous

        The right to life trumps the right of “free will.” The exercise of our free will does not extend to taking the life of another.

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      An Idle Dad

      Why do people think trite one-liners are the answers to complicated situations?

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        mike2791

        Abortion takes the life of an innocent human being, every time. It is only called “complicated” by people who are in favour of it continuing, to hide the simple, horrible truth. The truth is simple. Lies are always complicated.

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          An Idle Dad

          Except that, of course, it doesn’t.

          (Wow, trite one liners ARE great!)

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            mike2791

            Oh well, if Idle Dad says it doesn’t, then that’s it. That changes everything…Why don’t you offer a reasonable argument to make your case that it’s OK to kill babies? Is there one, or can you only contradict the truth and hope it goes away?

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              Rudyroo

              You got that right Mike.
              Idle is well known around these parts for his intellect and rational discussion. Unlike yourself at the moment.

              Now what were you saying about reasonable arguement? Perhaps you can practise what you preach and provide one for your case that it’s ok to disregard the life and free will of an existing woman for the sake of a potential life.

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              An Idle Dad

              These arguments have been made plenty of times, which are why abortions are legal – yes, legal with checks and balances – Mike.

              Unfertilised eggs: There is a potential person but no individual. The genome is incomplete. Failure to ensure the egg becomes fertilised, or acting to ensure no fertilisation occurs, is not murder.

              Sperm: There is a potential person but no individual. The genome is incomplete. Considering even if one sperm does fertilise an egg, around 500 million will ‘die’, I assume you don’t think sperm that doesn’t fertilise and egg, or is prevented from fertilising an egg is mass murder (but then again, it usually isn’t the guy’s problem, is it, Mike?)

              First trimester: There is a potential person but there is no individual. Neural pathways are incomplete. There is no chance of survival outside the mother. Most abortions occur during this time, there is no ethical dilemma about a ‘person’ here. The mother’s rights are absolute.

              Second trimester: There is a potential person, and late into this trimester you can definitely argue that an individual is forming – startle reactions, that sort of thing. The abortions that occur during this trimester are far more likely to be triggered by a physical or genetic abnormality being detected. While by the end of this trimester, babies can be born (and survive, though the earlier the odds are reduced) doctors are also aware that some babies, even taken to full term, will not live outside their mother, or have a greatly reduced quality of life. I’d agree that there is an ethical dilemma if a healthy foetus is aborted towards the end of this trimester, and the law reflects this. Prior to 20 weeks, the mother’s rights are absolute. Following 20 weeks, two doctors are required to agree that there is a valid reason behind request for an abortion.

              Third trimester: If the baby is healthy, you’ve pretty much got a person by this point. Again, I know you think people abort for shits and giggles but the only abortions that occur during this trimester are for two pretty well understood reasons. Firstly, where there is a late discovery of physical or genetic abnormality that either will kill the child (in minutes or a few years from birth) or, in essence, mean there is no “individual” present within the child – or secondly, where the mother’s life is threatened.

              There are huge ethical dilemmas around late term abortions (even though we are not discussing healthy baby abortions by this stage, because remember they don’t happen, Mike). Both the child’s and mother’s needs are weighed here. In NSW, the laws are even stricter than Victoria – an entire panel of experts ranging from child welfare to genetics need to – unanimously – agree the abortion request is reasonable.

              You might ask why not let the baby be born, even if it is going to die? Often the choice is to minimise suffering. Some parents let the pregnancy progress knowing their child will live in pain and suffering for its brief existence, others (as is their rights as parents) decide that the quality of life is too reduced, and better avoided. Is a baby killed? I’d say yes, but it is a merciful death, a death borne out of love. It could be the hardest decision a person ever has to make.

              I’d unequivocally state that an abortion of a healthy child with no risk to the mother during the third trimester is unethical – and if two doctors (or panels, or legal checks) disagree – illegal. Again, they simply don’t happen. No one gets to thirty weeks of pregnancy and then changes their mind. No, Mike, no one does.

              At no stage above are all human rights suddenly up for grabs and renegotiation. Abortion rights only impact pregnant women – not everyone. There is a balance between the rights of the mother and the needs of a child at each stage of the pregnancy.

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              mike2791

              You use the word “mum” in relation to the foetus.

              So are you now saying that the foetus is a human person? And the woman carrying it is his/her mother? A woman can not be a mum in your context unless the baby is a real human person. A woman can’t be the mother of a tree or a platypus, or any other non-human or potentially-human thing. So you agree that the mother has the right to kill a real human being. At least that has been cleared up.

              You wanted to know my position on the law and freedom. I answered that because you asked me to expound. Go on, please show me how illogical my reasoning is.

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              An Idle Dad

              Mike, I talk about ideas, you talk about semantics and start bringing up platypus? Sigh.

              OK, to bridge the gap, replace the word ‘Mum’ and ‘Mother’ with ‘Pregnant women’ – I take your point that a woman is not a mother until the child is born.

              You keep (intentionally) mixing up my words and write “non-human or potentially-human thing”. I never claimed a foetus was not human, or is a dog (as you bizarrely suggest I do further down in the comments).

              Let me make it clear – a foetus is completely human. But the cells at the instant of conception are not a person any more than your finger is. The person, as I took pains to describe, takes time to emerge.

              Just like the brain dead coma patient is considered by many to be an empty shell, the foetus is a potential person only.

              I explain, in reasonable detail, how my opinion of that – in line with the legalities – changes over the course of the pregnancy. You ignore it, and focus on my choice of words. Well done.

              You are removing the rights of the – pregnant woman – by removing the right to do with her body and determine her own future, especially during the first trimester.

              The ‘mother’ doesn’t have the right to arbitrarily kill another human being – the law has checks and balances. To begin with, the law recognises that no person exists and later, should, tragically, a late term abortion be required, it is for the best for everyone. Yes, including the unborn child.

              A close friend of mine discovered, a few weeks before she was due to give birth that her daughter’s lungs were inside out – that is – the fleshy mesh that absorbs air and transfers it to the blood stream was on the outside wall of the lungs. This child would have been born, then suffocated to death immediately.

              Instead of allowing that terrible outcome to occur, she chose a late term abortion. Now I’m not saying it sounds like you’d have more concern for a dying dog than for the suffering of that child. Even though you’d put a dog to sleep before ending it’s life and you’d simply let that newborn choke to death, you can at least make that call about what price your beliefs demand from others, be they women or tiny babies.

              My way, you can make your choice, I can make mine and my friend can make hers. Your way, there are no choices, only your way. Therein is the loss of rights.

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            Nicky

            An Idle Dad, your comment beginning with “These arguments have been made plenty of times” is probably the clearest, most rational comment I have read on here so far. Well said.

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              An Idle Dad

              Thanks Nicky.

              The beauty of choice is you can shift your personal ethics up and down the trimesters, but the legal checks remain in place.

              What I’m keen to see is Mike’s response to be honest.

              I’m cool he might believe that the human winks into existance at conception – but more on his reasoning why the law should immediately discard the existing person’s (the mother) rights…

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              mike2791

              It is a scientific fact that from the moment of conception, the foetus (from the Latin for “offspring”) is completely human. It has all the genetic information it will ever have. It is not a bacteria or a dog. There is nothing added to it later on to make it pass from a “potential” human person to a human person. Is a disabled person or a patient in a coma less than human? They need the help of others to survive, but they are completely human, and have the same rights as everyone else, even though they can’t defend them on their own. So does an unborn person.

              From the time of conception, the mother retains all the rights she possessed before she became pregnant. All the rights that were open to her are still available. All the things that were prohibited before are still prohibited. She did not have the right to take an innocent human life before pregnancy, and so she does not have the right to take one after pregnancy. No one is taking away any rights she did not already have. I support anyone’s right to make choices, but someone’s right to live trumps the right of someone else to choose and decide, when that means someone has to give up their life to make way for another’s choice. If the law is out of sync with this, it is the law needs to change. The law does not discard the mother’s rights at all – in fact it erroneously adds one she never previously had – the right to choose to take an innocent human life.

              Idle Dad, your assertion that the mother’s rights are discarded is therefore false. The tragic effect of that view is that you will continue to promote and condone the killing of innocent human beings.

              I gather that you have given this much serious thought, but that alone does not guarantee that you will arrive at the right conclusion, and on this issue you have not.

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              An Idle Dad

              Mike, when a person is in a coma, their next of kin can turn off the machine. It’s not murder

              With servere brain damage in a coma patient, it is often said that the person is “gone”. The body is fully human, the person is gone.

              Those closest to them decide their future on their behalf. And no one is closer to their unborn fetus than its Mum.

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            ksss

            an Idle dad – you have made such a perfect argument for Pro-Choice…i am sick of these highly religious people stating that abortion is murder (and some non-religious too), every circumstance is different and you have summarised it perfectly.

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              An Idle Dad

              Thanks, the feedback is appreciated.

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          Nulligravida

          . It is only called “complicated” by people who are in favour of it continuing, to hide the simple, horrible truth. The truth is simple. Lies are always complicated.

          No, the simple truth is this: the abortion debate is really about sex, not murder.

          That is the reality of the abortion debate; it has nothing to do with “murder” at all. The anti-choicers’ opposition to abortion is really about sex and, especially, women having sex. Anti-choicers have no concerns other than forcing women who become pregnant to have the child, hence their correct appellation ought to be “compulsory birthists”. They want people to have sex only within marriage and only for procreation. Most of all, they oppose anything that enables women to have independent, autonomous lives. The having of sex strictly for enjoyment and outside of marriage is something that these people want to punish other people for with pregnancy and babies. It is just old-fashioned slut-shaming.

          Banning abortion or, rather, forcing pregnancy, is often used as punishment and revenge for women not taking proper contraceptive care or being sexually liberal. This explains those who, although against abortion in principle, are accepting in cases of rape—the pregnancy is not the victim’s ‘fault’, and therefore doesn’t deserve the same punishment. These so-called moderates who oh so graciously “allow” abortion in cases of rape or threat of maternal death present a clear sub-text. It is not that they believe life is sacred from the moment of conception, for if that were true, they’d oppose all pregnancy terminations. No, what they are REALLY saying is that abortion is NOT ok when a woman has chosen to have sex. Taken to its logical conclusion, if a woman has enjoyed sex she ought to be punished with childbirth.

          A child by choice should be a blessing and a joy, not a reminder of sin. For the compulsory birthists, a child is not a child, it’s a Punishment. That’s right: children are God’s/society’s/nature’s way of punishing a woman for having sex. If you have sex, you must have a child. Forcing a woman to carry a foetus to term against her will violates her rights, deprives her of her liberty, and subjects her to degradation. While being pregnant with a wanted child may indeed be a rewarding experience, for most women to carry an unwanted child to term would be the epitome of degradation and punishment.

          The compulsory birthists are obsessed with controlling other people — probably because of anxiety over their own sexual inadequacy. The motivation is to control what other people do for their own egotistical purposes while hiding behind their faux altruism. They do not care at all about the life of the baby after it is born, simply to make sure that the unwanted punishment for sex is delivered to the sinner who engaged in sex for enjoyment to teach them the error of their ways.

          Clearly they KNOW that abortion and birth control allows women to behave like men; to phuque with impunity and for their own gratification. Horror of horrors they may even be able to compare mens’ performances and have the audacity to demand sexual satisfaction. Taking away women’s access to controlling their reproductive destiny takes away women’s independence.

          This debate will become clearer when the compulsory birthists admit that the real reason they oppose abortion and birth control is because they are sexually insecure and are terrified by sexual competition. When women start to enjoy non-procreative sex this unleashes the horror that they may compare men’s sexual prowess or inadequacies. It means that frigid women must compete with wanton jezebels. I suspect the older anti-choicers are bitter that they missed out on all the sexual permissiveness now enjoyed by others. As one meme suggests, it is as if they are on a diet and they are angry about others eating do-nuts.

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        sweetsparrow

        idle dad I believe you are confusing “trite” with “succinct”.

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        Nulligravida

        “It is a scientific fact that from the moment of conception, the foetus (from the Latin for “offspring”) is completely human.”

        Mike, since you are a stickler for semantics, then be advised that prefacing a statement with “it is a scientific fact” does not turn it into one. It is a lazy rhetorical device.

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      Anonymous

      Gimme a break, “sweetsparrow” *sigh*

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        mike2791

        Do you need a break? Why, is the truth just too much to bear? If I held your position, I would want a break too. I don’t know how you do it, to be honest.

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      pygmygirl

      Er, can you and the other “pro – lifers” please show me irrefutable proof that A) – there is a God, B) Just where is the sanctified, verified, stat dec letter that said God has told you to speak on his/her behalf, C) Also, where is the sanctified, verified, stat dec letter saying that God thinks abortion is murder? Please don’t all rush to say it’s in the Bible. The bible was written by men. Once you can produce all of these independently verified documents I may have a small chance of believing all your rubbish. However until the unlikely event of you PROVING there is a God, and PROVING you are speaking on God’s behalf, and PROVING that God thinks abortions are murder, I would have an easier time believing a dodgy e bay seller telling me that the Nigerian bank account they are going to set up in my name is authentic than believing that the bible has anything to do with a God that may or may not exist, and the fact that this God thinks abortions are murder.
      Since you people do however believe in God, have you all not been taking God’s name in vain by speaking for him/her?

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    Kris2040

    I had an abortion about 15 years ago, when pre-term was at Camperdown/Glebe. Thinking about access – I’m positive we had to arrive at a prearranged time and give Mum’s number plate, then get buzzed in to a carpark and then again into the actual clinic. Is it the same/similar now?

    I hardly think they’re going to be over-run with people showing up bearing gifts if it’s still anything like what it used to be. From memory I don’t think there was even an obvious, open entrance on the street…

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    Anonymous

    here is an idea then,if it’s just a clump of cells and the rights of the mother are paramount over anyone else then why would there be a problem with killing a baby out of the womb?people would argue it is murder but why is it any less then when the baby is in the mothers womb?

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      An Idle Dad

      Wow. What logic. You should teach that stuff.

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      pygmygirl

      If I was gang raped or had my father/grandfather/brother/uncle’s baby inside of me anonymous it would not bother me in the slightest. Animals kill their young all the time for similar reasons. Since animals are created by God, it must be ok, right? If you want a different opinion, fine, but don’t shove your self righteous views and wish to control others bodies down our throats. How about we FORCE our views on you and make a law that all pro lifers HAVE to terminate their babies? How about we stand outside maternity wards condemning your decision to overcrowd the world a bit more with more trailer trash pro-life fools? No, of course we don’t have the right to force this onto pro – lifers, so stay out of other peoples lives. Having an opinion that is different does not give you the right to endanger others lives.

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        C Star

        So your response is to punish the unborn innocent child and not the rapist?

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          Kris2040

          But your response is to punish the woman for getting pregnant (regardless of how it happened) by intimidating and shaming them for only attending a clinic that performs abortions?

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            C Star

            So again, you’re more then happy to kill the unborn child, but leave the rapist be…

            Funny that… Let me just quickly remind you that you’re alive. Be thankful to your parents.

            Or…the society they lived in that condoned such actions.

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              Kris2040

              Huh? How does the person who has been raped aborting let the rapist go free? What a silly strawman argument.

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          pygmygirl

          C Star, it’s not a child, unborn or otherwise. It’s a bunch of cells. If you get pregnant due to gang rape or incest if you want to carry it to term and keep it or adopt it out that’s your choice. It would certainly not be mine. As Idle Dad pointed out most excellently in a post above, the law is clear. Before 20 weeks it’s not a person. 2nd and 3rd trimesters things are a little different. If you think anyone would willingly have an abortion late term because they changed their mind, or being pregnant and having a child didn’t suit them anymore you are ignorant, moronic, or being argumentative just for the sake of it.
          I personally think people that try to force their views of anti abortion onto others need to be charged with assault. It’s perfectly fine to have your views and beliefs. It is NOT perfectly fine to try to FORCE others to conform to your belief system. Think of the most abhorrent way of life/belief system you can. Now think about how you would feel if the people that had this belief system didn’t just want you to acknowledge their right to this belief, but wanted to FORCE you to live it. That’s what you are trying to do to others.

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            C Star

            Do I need to react to a contradictory statement :)
            I would suggest in future debate you do not attack yourself in defense. It serves to make you look silly :)

            You are comparing a way of life, religious and moral beliefs with blatant murder of unborn children. If that is how you wish to justify the selfishness of the act then so be it. Each to their own.

            In time I assure you that you will see the error in your ways. Till such a day comes I will continue to pray for the lives taken within that abortion clinic. And will continue to defend those that cannot defend themselves.

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              Nulligravida

              Yanno C Star, I think it would be great if there were no abortion. No pro-choice person would ever want to see abortion made compulsory.

              But your lot seem to want childbirth made compulsory for any woman who dares to have sex.

              Because your lot are not really interested in “life.” You don’t like women having sex — or more accurately — you don’t like them *enjoying* sex.

              And sure, you may not have said it here, but any perusal of any so-called “pro-life” organisation’s desires also extends to stamping out contraception, homosexuality and pre-marital sex too.

              For your lot, sex MUST be procreative and taking away women’s ability to control their fertility is so to bring back the fear of unwanted pregnancy, to bring back slut-shaming, to return to the days when unmarried mothers were forced to give up their babies.

              It has nothing at all to do with “life”. You will not convince me otherwise.

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      Rudyroo

      Are you serious?

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        pygmygirl

        Rudyroo, not sure if you were replying to me or to anonymous. If it’s me you are replying to, of course I am not serious, but am just trying to point out that pro lifers seem to think they can force their views onto women who need to have an abortion and it’s all ok. How horrified would everyone be if it was the other way around, yet it’s ok to want to change the law to ban abortion or to at least pressure women into not having an abortion, that’s all. (Oh, & if you weren’t replying to me, sorry for the little rant!)

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          rudyroo

          It’s cool Pygmygirl.
          I was applying to anonymous.

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      ksss

      read An Idle Dad’s comment above which starts with “these arguments have been made plenty of times…”, i think those few paragraphs will answer your questions right there Anonymous

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    Anon for this

    This is a terrible idea. I really hope that MamaMia reassess the support for this proposal. I think it’s terribly inappropriate.

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      Anonymous

      Do you realize we are supporting the staff and women going to the clinic not the protesters?

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        Anon for this

        Of course I see that. While I think it’s a nice thought, I think it’s very, very badly thought out strategy. It’s simplistic and if I’m very honest, very patronising. When I had an abortion, I didn’t need to see my caregiver eating cake to know that there was a pro-choice movement supporting me and them. I needed privacy. There are many, many other ways for the pro-choice movement and clinic staff to be supported.

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          Someone

          Hi, I know what you mean. I went to the Surrey Hills clinic nearly 30 years ago. While I appreciate the idea, it needs to be done so that there is still privacy for the women who don’t want the risk of running into someone they know during this intensely private time.

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          rainbow

          your caregiver will be eating cake at their allocated break time. it must be stressful working in that environment every day with those people sitting outside. these are people who can be slightly deranged, it would make me nervous.

          so maybe a slice of cake from someone to say ‘keep up the good work’ is not a bad thing.

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            Anon for this

            How would you feel if you were going for an abortion and you bumped into someone delivering a cake? Particularly if it’s someone you know or a friend of a friend, etc. And even if it’s a stranger (albeit a well-meaning stranger), I certainly wouldn’t want a knowing, understanding look. I’d want privacy. I understand that it’s a stressful job for a clinic worker, but I think it’s more important to put the needs of the patient first and foremost.

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              rainbow

              i can see what you are saying. i know i like my privacy even when i am attending normal medical things, let alone something so personal and potentially painful.

              i might just whack a bag of lollies in the post. i don’t have a local clinic (listed here anyway) as i am not in a major capital city.

              i totally see you point, i just think people are trying hard to counter-balance the “peaceful” protesters.

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              rainbow

              i can see what you are saying. i know i like my privacy even when i am attending normal medical things, let alone something so personal and potentially painful.

              i might just whack a bag of lollies in the post. i don’t have a local clinic (listed here anyway) as i am not in a major capital city.

              i totally see your point, i just think people are trying hard to counter-balance the “peaceful” protesters.

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          Lucy Ormonde

          Hey guys, for the record – we’ve called the clinic to let them know we’re coming and have arranged a time to visit when only staff will be present.

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            Anon for this

            Thanks for clarifying Lucy. Can I ask what the response from the clinic was?

            Also, could I suggest that these drop-off times be published so those readers who are planning to visit on their own will know the best time to do so.

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              Lucy Ormonde

              They were very open to the idea. As I said in the post – I think it’s best to call the clinic beforehand and ask them about drop-off times. Every one will be different.

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      Liza

      I couldn’t agree more, having an abortion is intensely emotional, anxiety-filled and private. It’s bad enough with pro-lifers hanging around, let alone encouraging people to drop by with cakes. I can appreciate that it’s a nice gesture for the staff of these clinics but it’s not supportive of a patient’s need for privacy and discretion. Perhaps there might be a better way to support the staff of these clinics and send a big up-yours to the pro-lifers.

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    tanlee

    Great idea. I’m in, Melbourne side.

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    vanessayoung

    People who protest abortion are really about fear. They fear a society where women can no longer be restrained by biology. They don’t go to the workplace of the men who are “just not ready to be a father” or who raped, or assaulted a poor girl who is now dealing with an unwanted pregnancy. They do not wonder why drug companies can develop Viagra but there is still no safe, cheap, effective contraceptive.
    They labor under the misapprehension that the clients of abortion clinics WANT to be there. Nobody wants to be there. Abortion is a last resort for the patient.
    It is enormously nasty and rude to gather outside these clinics and foist your views on someone at one of the most traumatic points of their lives.
    It will not change anything. My grandmother was a maternity nurse in the years before abortion was safely performed and the stories she told of back yard abortions were horrific.

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      Anonymous

      Hi Vanessa,

      Whilst I don’t agree with badgering women outside clinics I am most definitely pro life. I honestly with all my heart cannot understand ending the life of a precious baby. I’m sorry that it’s not fashionable and I realise things were worse before it was legal but as a mother I cant fathom anyone doing this. This is not about fear.

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        An Idle Dad

        It’s about privilege. Your life turned out OK. Your kids were born when you had the support and funds to give them a life you’d be happy with. If you did ultrasounds, they were all clear.

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    Nicky

    These people make me so angry. I am pro-choice and I have no problem with people having an opinion that is different to mine. What I do have a problem with, is these people thinking that they have the right to interfere with other people’s lives/choices. You don’t see me knocking on the doors of rape victims who decide to keep their babies and telling them that it should be aborted, because somehow I have the right to force my opinion on them! Have your opinion sure, but don’t use your belief in God as a way to shove it down someone else’s throat! I am sorry but isn’t it for God alone to judge?

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    Anon

    I think most of the well meaning women baking cakes have not been through abortion. If you had you would realise the last thing you want is a fuss, whether it’s for the staff or not. It is a lovely thought, but really the less people around during such a confronting time the better.

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      Anonymous

      I feel able to reply here. I had a termination almost 10 years ago it was the most difficult decision I have ever had to make. Whilst I was quite emotional and upset at the time I cannot ever forget my gratitude to the staff for their compassion and for the fact that this option was available to me. I was also quiet traumatised by the protestors outside who felt it was appropriate to tell me I was committing murder.
      I will be baking my little heart out to say a very belated thank you. I wish I had thought of this years and years ago.

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        Anon for this

        I’ve also had an abortion, but I would never bake a cake and drop into a clinic, no matter how well-meaning the gesture. I find it intrusive to those patients who want privacy.

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    anon

    It’s also apparent that a lot of the anti-abortion nutters visit this site and I wonder how wise it is to advertise their campaign and conveniently provide addresses for every clinic in the country. I’d be guessing you’ve just swollen the number of protesters somewhat significantly.

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      mike2791

      You are in support of the dismemberment of babies’ bodies, of crushing their skulls, of suctioning them out of the womb, of re-assembling their body parts in a post-abortion tray to make sure the doctor “got it all out”, and you call anyone who opposes this a “nutter”?

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        Anonymous

        Oh what tosh.

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          mike2791

          Oh, what tosh. Hey, I can type that sentence too, but it’s a lousy answer. You have probably never been confronted with what happens in an abortion, that’s why you can’t believe it when it is spelled out. You have to casually dismiss it to maintain your position, because if you confronted it under the cold light of fact minus emotion, it is unsustainable for any sane person.

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        pygmygirl

        Yep, that’s what happens to those little cells. Just like if you get your appendix taken out, or some bowel taken out, or a cyst removed, or your tonsils removed. Some useless or dangerous cells removed. You obviously have a learning difficulty. It’s a bunch of cells. I suppose you support the laws they have in America where women who naturally miscarry are CHARGED WITH MURDER too.

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        Mackey

        Clearly comprehension was not your strong suite at school or later in life.
        Clearly biology and the development of a foetus is something you have not looked at either.
        It seems that anti-choicers prefer to use hyperbole and rhetoric about terminations and what actual development of the foetus has taken place and what does and doesn’t exist at what particular weeks.. and especially about what a mass of cells looks like versus an actual human body that can support itself out of the womb..

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    JL

    Dont these people have to go to work??
    I wish i could stand around all day doing nothing but wasting time! If they have so much free time i wish they would volunteer at the childrens hospital or make clothes for unwanted babies or something? surely some of them know how to knit…i mean, they have so much free time they must have some other skills apart from standing outside on a sidewalk……or maybe this is their only skill…..eeeek awkward!

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      Melanie

      Lol, love it!

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    Amanda

    I am a catholic girl who fell pregnant at 18 to my 1st real boyfriend – who became abusive later in the pregnancy and beyond. I had my beautiful baby boy and loved him and kept him safe through my turbulent life.
    2 years on – I fell pregnant again… I knew I couldn’t have another baby while living like I did. I wanted to give my 2 year old child a better life then he had and I knew having another child would make it that much harder to get out and to keep everyone safe. My son deserved better then what we had – and so did I. I had a termination and it broke my heart. My sister and best friend were with me every step of the way.
    There is a story to everyones decision – but its their story and their decision, thats all that counts.

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    Cate

    If pro-lifers genuinely cared about mothers and babies they would be spending money providing refuges for women escaping domestic violence, campaigns for increasing financial benefits for single mothers, financial support for children with disabilities (carers get paid almost nothing) and funds to support services for female victims of rape. Instead of standing outside clinic waving placards of dead fetuses.

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      BatGirl

      My thoughts exactly.

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      pygmygirl

      Exactly. It seems the reality of a baby and mother who can’t cope is all a little bit too hard. Much easier to protest at the site of a clinic when women are already stressed out and feeling pretty down. What a bunch of evil hypocrites they are.

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      mike2791

      They do all of that. Do you?

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      Pip

      Hi Cate,
      Providing funds to help refugees and financial aid for single mothers isn’t mutually exclusive with a silent protest out side clinics. These protests aren’t just about holding placards, they are praying. To them that is a tangible way to help these women who choose to have abortions. These protesters aren’t trying to be condescending or push their ideals onto people. It’s a matter of being present, and if one should choose to ask them of their opinions they can give it freely.
      The Catholic Church within Australia does do a lot to service the wider community regardless of one’s faith. I think that should be recognised.

      Pip.

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    I don't understand

    I’m not really sure how to phrase this but, what is the difference between what these women are doing & murder?
    You are taking a life that you have no right to take?
    To me, you can use every excuse under the sun but, if you didn’t want to have a baby you should’ve been a lot more careful.
    I’m sorry if this upsets people but it’s the truth & that’s probably why it would upset people.
    As they say, the truth hurts.

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      Karenagain

      Sorry – I feel like I have that right, because it’s my body. You actually don’t have the right to keep me pregnant against my will.

      I say it’s a choice between an unwanted life or a painless, unconscious death. People aren’t endangered, so in my opinion, the latter is a better outcome.

      Also – I don’t agree that childbirth and pregnancy is this holy, godly thing – it is a bodily function. It is nature. And I have the science to stop it, so I will.

      Finally, that ‘baby’ is part of the mother, and relies on the mother to survive. It isn’t an independent being, can’t survive on it’s own, can’t grow on it’s own, can’t turn into a ‘person’ without the mother incubating it, and i think it is the mothers choice to turn that cooking process off.

      As for being careful – ahahahahaha, I know! We are SUCH IDIOTS right?

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      Rose

      It is YOUR truth, not THE truth. Very different things.

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      JL

      Its not always as simple as being ‘careful’ some contraceptions fail, some woman are raped, some are the victims of incest, also some fetus’s have deformities that may kill the woman if it continues to develop.
      Whatever their reasons are for abortion, it is their own! and U calling it murder is your opinion, not fact!
      a sperm and an egg that have come together does not mean its a human with feelings…it has the potential to become a baby yes, but its about as alive as the egg or the sperm and we dont condem people to ‘hell’ for having a period or having a wank!
      If u dont like abortion, dont have an abortion….thats your choice! and everyone else has a choice as well.

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        I don't understand

        Which will always bring us back to religion. Rape-punishable by death, so is incest. If we start punishing the offenders rather than putting them up in a five star hotel that we call jail, maybe we can eliminate that part of the issue. As for mothers life in danger then of course save the mother.
        Lastly, scientist are discovering that plants have feelings, so how can we be sure that sperm, egg and fetus don’t.
        Thank you for not getting angry and discussing this in a civil way.

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          kate

          Plants have feelings…….Well youve got me crying now im eating a salad!!

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          MJ

          Plants have feelings therefore sperm cells do? Wow. Imagine how many little unhappy sperm cells are ‘murdered’ every time a man masturbates…

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          Anon

          So rape and incest are punishable by death in your religion? For me, this is the height of hypocrisy! Even if I don’t agree with the pro-life sentiment, per se, there are opinions I respect when they are consistent. For example, progressive churches who recognise that, until appropriate support structures can be installed to enable women in difficult circumstances to have and raise babies, prohibition is foolish. These people, who walk the talk, volunteer at free after-school services for children from single parent homes so that parents can go out and financially support their child. People who promote appropriate sexual education instead of the completely unpragmatic “abstain, abstain, abstain” mantra. People who visit new parents from birth, cook meals, do washing, talk. There are churches around the world that provide these services and to me, their views deserve to be respected because they are doing all they can to reduce the circumstances which influence women to terminate a pregnancy.

          These very same people are at least consistent in their definition of pro-life – this means they do not, under any circumstance, condone state-sanctioned murder, the death penalty.

          To me, these people deserve my respect even if we ultimately disagree on whether or not there should be terminations of pregnancy, even once all the support systems are in place.

          To beat the pro-life drum with one hand, bleating on about the rights of the unborn, while at once denying those very same rights to fully-fledged people (criminals or not), well, that just doesn’t garner any respect from me and completely undermines the argument that “life” is sacrosanct.

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          JL

          So u are for the death penalty? but not for abortion?

          is that what you mean ‘ If we start punishing the offenders rather than putting them up in a five star hotel that we call jail’??

          now i dont understand?

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          pygmygirl

          What???? I thought you were pro life? Murder is wrong? So, because the rapist isn’t an “unborn baby” you get to kill them?
          Love, you are either pro life or you’re not. You have just proved you are not pro life, so any other argument you put forward about how abortion is murder is ridiculous.

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      Rick Morton

      The law.

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      Cate

      Bit hard if you’ve been raped, as I was at 18. Luckily no pregnancy resulted.

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      hh

      Hi “I don’t understand”

      You are quite correct in saying what you have above and also that the truth is hard for a lot of people to hear.Everyone wants everything to go their way these days even if it comes at the cost of another human being(their child).Especially unfair too is that the unborn is the most vulnerable of us so ,you could assume,would deserve even more protection.Sadly that is not the case.

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        pygmygirl

        hh, what is it that you and your fellow god botherers do to help women or children out? Maybe you should stop worrying about potential babies and their mothers and start helping the ones already here. Or is that a bit too real and unpleasant for you and your ilk?

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          rach32

          Why is it you think that people who believe in God don’t to things for others? That people who are pro-life don’t do things for others? Where are you getting this information from?

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            pygmygirl

            from their website and comments actually. If there are so many of these obsessive pro lifers out there sooooo bothered about the lives these babies are living then why aren’t they out there helping out at shelters, and orphanages and helping the women they are demanding have babies instead of abortions. They all seem to have so much time on their hands to hang around abortion clinics, so why aren’t they actually helping out with the babies that ARE brought into the world?

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              rach32

              I know plenty of pro-lifers who do heaps of things, foster, adopt, spend time doing craft and sport with women in jail, setting up homes for women and their children when they get out of jail (and finding the money to do that), looking after other peoples kids for free regularly, taking meals around and cleaning for women when they are sick or their kids are in hospital, spending time with the elderly and those with mental illnesses, feeding the homeless, mowing and repairing peoples houses, I could go on and on and on. Perhaps you should actually spend some time with some pro-life people to see what they’re like. I’m sure you’ll find they’re like most people, none perfect, some good, some ordinary, some annoying etc. They happen to have a different believe to you. And they are convicted of that. And their conviction has led them to action, action that they believe needs to be taken through prayer. And yes, prayer done in their churches or homes will be heard by God just the same, but they also believe that it is important for the mothers’ to know they are being prayed for, because that shows God’s love, that his people would take time out of their day, to think of these women and their babies. It is not to cast judgement or shame. It is unfortunate that some women feel saddened rather than uplifted by this silent prayer, as it shows the low value that the secular community places on prayer. I would always feel glad to know someone is praying for me and my baby, not upset. It is just a different persepective.

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      Caroline

      If aborting a clump of cells is murder, then so is menstruation. And male masturbation. A zygote and/or embryo, which is what is terminated, is a potential life. The key word being potential. If you honestly believe that it is murder, then you must also believe that menstruation is murder as it results in the death of an egg. By the same thinking, male ejaculation that doesn’t result in the fertilisation of an egg would be mass murder. And that is the truth. The truth doesn’t have to hurt. Especially when it’s the genuine truth, and not simply your opinion.

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        hh

        Caroline,you are a bit confused I think!We are talking about fertilised eggs here,and a BIG proportion of terminations occur between 3- 4 months where there is a lot of development.You can see arms legs,ears ….

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          Anonymous

          That isn’t true. The most terminations occur around the 8-10 week mark.

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          Kris2040

          What proportion, hh?

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          melmyers

          That’s a load of BS. Most terminations are performed before 12 weeks. After that it is a more difficult procedure and it’s also more expensive. Terminations after the 12 week mark are rare. Sounds like pro-life propaganda you’re spouting there.

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            hh

            I never said all ,I said a big proportion….

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              Kris2040

              You still haven’t told us what this “big proportion” is though, hh.

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              June

              I could not find Australian stats but the American ones say 10% are late term abortions, with the majority of them being for medical reasons. Medical reasons can’t be argued with as far as I am concerned.

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              rudyroo

              HH, if you are going to come in and go on so much about a topic. At least have the decency to provide factual information when requested. Otherwise you are percieved as someone who as no real idea about the situation/topic. In which case, why bother wasting your time commenting?

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          odette

          I had a miscarriage at 12 weeks, and I can assure you that what came out was a clump of cells, not a baby.

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            sweetsparrow

            I also miscarried my baby at 12 weeks. I too can confirm that the baby I held in my hands and mourned for was not a “clump of cells.” Smallest human being I have ever seen.

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      pygmygirl

      I don’t understand, what are you going to do if your contraception fails, or you are raped, or gang raped, or your uncle, dad or grandpa have a little turn with you? Oh, I know, what about if your fetus is so badly damaged it won’t survive? Or if by having a baby you will die, or be so badly messed up you will be one step up from a vegetable? I guess you’ll just have the kid and thank your God for giving it to you. Grow up and start living your life with some empathy and compassion. Unless YOU are the person in the position of having to consider abortion it has NOTHING to do with you. I hope you are praying for all the murdered babies running out of you each time you have a period by the way. After all, by your reckoning all those little cells are a future baby. Why don’t you foster some kids, or take in a single mother who has had her baby and is unable to cope either financially, or mentally. You know, do some actual good for a child.

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      pygmygirl

      When it’s ok for pro choicers to dictate to pro lifers what they should or shouldn’t do with their unborn or otherwise babies, you may have a bit more credibility. Until the day you zealots are happy for someone who has no idea of what your circumstances are to try to run your life, with the consequences lasting the rest of your life, butt out of other people’s lives. Get a job. Walk in someone else’s shoes. Start practicing what you preach about God – that we are all created equal and only God has the right to judge others. Not you, not your preacher, not the person you go to church with, and not the other pro – lifers. Just God. Until one of you has undeniable, absolute, unequivocal proof that there is a God, and that God has actual provided said proof that abortions are against God’s wishes, shut the hell up and mind your own business.

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      Nulligravida

      “To me, you can use every excuse under the sun but, if you didn’t want to have a baby you should’ve been a lot more careful.”
      I’m sorry if this upsets people but it’s the truth & that’s probably why it would upset people.
      As they say, the truth hurts.”

      Yes, the truth is you do not really care about “life” or the murder of little babies. You have already conceded that your approach to preserving life is inconsistant. You just hide behind crocodile tears for widdle baybeez when what really bothers you is women who choose to have sex. Your truth is that sex should be punishable with pregnancy.

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    anon

    There’s something about this proposal that just makes me cringe.

    What we need is intelligent debate to bring about cultural and legislative change so abortion is an accepted right for all women.

    If I was having an abortion I certainly wouldn’t want some do-gooder I didn’t even known shoving cake down my throat. That’s as bad as the placard wavers. I’m sure these poor women just want to be left alone.

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      Eliza

      I’m guessing that Mamamia have got permission from each clinic before publishing, right? And let’s assume that anyone dedicated enough to participate is also a considerate person who will not intrude on the patient’s privacy.

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        Anon for this

        Interesting point. Did Mamamia contact each clinic in advance to see if:

        a/ they think the cake-baking idea is a good, appropriate idea?
        b/ they were happy to have their address published?

        Rick – can you answer these questions? I really hope the clinics were contacted in advance. If not, I hope this cake bake idea doesn’t inadvertently swell the protestors’ numbers.

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      Rose

      Anon, the cake isn’t for the women who are having the abortion it is for the workers in the clinics who have to endure 40 days of silent protesters outside their work.

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        anon

        ok, I may have misinterpreted that but it won’t prevent these poor women being caught up in a potential deluge of well-meaning mamamia readers bearing cakes and flowers and god forbid, “kick arse mix tapes” as one reader has already threatened to do.

        Just….uggh.

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      JL

      When u wake up from abortion its a bit yukky and a nice cup of tea and a slice of cake or bikky is really nice…its comforting and u need a little sugar! I am sure that all of mamamia supporters wont be there after the proceedure with balloons and flowers dancing around the room haha!!
      Its a nice gesture for the staff as well cos honestly it would feel crappy having idiots protesting your work all day every day and a bunch of flowers and chocolates would probably be welcomed by anyone anywhere….who wouldnt love a little treat at work sometimes?

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        Guest

        I would prefer a way to donate money to these clinics, like how in America you can donate to Planned Parenthood, so they can purchase such supplies, rather than be intrusive just because it makes the cake baker feel good.

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          JL

          Hey Guest, i am sure if u jumped online and found the clinics websites i would say u could contact them and offer donation if you are not comfortable with baked goods. Or just send a check directly to them with a little note!
          I guess the worse thing that can happen is they dont accept it, but i would think it would be totally fine!! They may even like office supplies or little things like that! Good on you :)

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          Why? Why? Why?

          Why would you donate to a multi million dollar business???
          Do you donate to McDonald’s or Coca Cola?

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            Kim

            I donate money regularly to Marie Stopes. They are a not-for-profit orgnisation. They provide safe and legal abortion in addition to contraceptives, vasectomy, sti screening, pap smears, etc. They provide these services not just in Australia but all around the world including developing countries that normally wouldn’t have access to this type of medical care.

            They are doing a lot of good in this world and that’s why I support them and donate money to them.

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            trixie melodian

            @ Why? Why? Why?

            LMAO how much money do people donate to Hillsong, or World Vision, Or best of all, the Catholic Church? These organisations are easily worth millions (the Catholic Church is worth FAR more)

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      Anonymous

      I agree! I have had one and the last thing I would have wanted is a social icon to bake me cake and tweet about it and take photos! It is a woman’s right to choose and she should be able to do this without the attention of the whole country

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        Anon for this

        I agree. I think this is a very, very misguided proposal and I hope that Mia re-assesses her support of it based on many of the comments here today. At the very least, it’s cringeworthy and naive (let’s support the workers with a sweet treat). At the very worst, it’s invasive and not AT ALL helpful.

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        Kris2040

        But it’s not about chucking a party for the people having procedures at the clinics, it’s about countering the Lent protests and showing support rather than intimidation.

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    Anon

    I am going to start my comment off by saying that I have had 2 terminations. Both for different reasons which I will not go into. The first time I went to the clinic there were no protestors, the second time there were. Did it bother me? A little bit. I was already quite emotional and I told them to get f…d when they tried to give me a pamphlet!

    It was obviously something that occurred on a regular basis though, because in the clinic they had a laminated print out explaining about the protestors and saying basically that everyone has the right to their own opinion, and some of the people who protest have mental illnesses and should be treated with some compassion etc. I believe this provided some insight into the protestors behaviour and I honestly can say I didn’t think any more about it that day or since. However, I can appreciate that this sort of thing would make some women upset. Would it actually deter them? I’m not so sure.

    Anyway, the reason I am commenting is because while its a nice gesture I don’t really think that baking some baked goods will do the staff at these clinics any good. The staff know that they are doing a good thing, otherwise I doubt they would work there, and they are used to these protestors. Further, if you are having a termination you usually have a general anaesthetic and are not able to eat prior to it, and you really don’t feel like eating afterwards.

    I donated a large number of old magazines to the clinic I went to because I noticed that they only had very outdated magazines and there weren’t many to read. You generally have to wait a few hours so it’s nice to have something to read to take your mind off everything. Perhaps this would be a more constructive thing to give to these clinics to show your support?

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      MJ

      Disagree, as a medical professional myself I can tell you now, doctors and nurses looove chocolate. It’s practically a currency in the hospital.
      And I think any kind gesture to them will be accepted with appreciation.

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    Anon for this one

    This post lit a fire of dread in the pit of my stomach, because I will be visiting one of these centers in the next fortnight.

    My partner kicked me out when I fell pregnant. I’m 32 and living with my parents again and I have two serious illnesses which prevent me from working. Honestly? I would be financially better off having this child. But I’m not going to. I’m not going to bring a child into my train wreck of a life, that would be irresponsible, in my opinion.

    The protesters better be silent. One word from them and I can guarantee I will lose control of my turbocharged hormones, or maybe I’ll just vomit on them on my way past. I’ll appreciate all support shown inside that’s for sure.

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      amyintheworld

      Anon, I know these might seem like hollow words coming from a stranger, but I truly am sorry that you’re going through a terrible time. You are doing such a brave thing, I really hope that all goes well and you don’t have too hard a time at the clinic – please try not to let any protesters get to you, because you ARE doing the right thing for you right now.
      Hope all goes well and you feel better soon.

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      rainbow

      so sorry you are going through this. i hope you have someone to take that can protect you from these horrible people.

      you need to do what is right for you. i wish you the best and a protester free day.

      oh and if they are there don’t feel bad about losing control of your turbo charged hormones.

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      Mademoiselle

      Sending lots of strength and best wishes your way.

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      mike2791

      Please re-consider. There are other options for you. You do have a choice. Please don’t go to the clinic. The other people on here saying you are doing the right thing are not helping you. My wife and I will adopt the baby if you wish. We will love him/her and give them a good home and family. I am serious. You could remain private from the child if you wish. I don’t know. Please give the little person inside you a chance at life. You have been given the opportunity to live. Your mother gave that gift to you. That’s what he/she wants – life. Please. We can work out a way if you contact us. Or if you just have the baby, then decide what other choices you have. You might have a change of heart by then. You have had a tough run, reading your post. Life is often difficult, but things will get better, even though they might be a “train wreck” at the moment. Please find out a way to contact us. Sincerely, Mike

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        trixie melodian

        I know about the dinner party rules, and I have no doubt I will be deleted for saying this, but I just have to get this rant off my chest (and please note that I would have no hesitation saying this to mike’s face at a dinner party):

        Fuck right off, you sanctimonious, judgmental twat. How dare you take advantage of Anon’s brave and honest decision to talk about her experiences and use them as an opportunity to peddle your holier-than-thou bullshit.

        You make me feel ill.

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    Eliza

    Lucy, Lana, Mia I will be very proud to join you in Sydney. I’m thinking flowers, savoury pastries and a kick-arse mix tape.

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      Guest

      Because abortion is a dinner party…?

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        Eliza

        No, because the little things in life can make your day better when you’re being harrassed outside your workplace.

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          anon

          I appreciate you’re trying to be nice Eliza but please don’t bring a “kick arse mix tape” to my abortion.

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            Eliza

            Anon, of course. I intend the mix tape to be shared amongst the dedicated staff who might need something uplifting in their headphones, not the patients who have bigger things on their minds.

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              Anon for this

              So unbelievably inappropriate. A kick-arse mix tape might make you feel better, but it has absolutely NOTHING at all to do with the feelings of the patient or the clinic workers.

              As someone who has had an abortion, the last thing I needed was a do-gooder with a stereo and a pastry taking up my time and my caregivers’ time. There are PLENTY of other ways you can support the cause, the clinic’s workers and the patients. I urge you to please reconsider.

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              rainbow

              seriously give eliza a break. she was trying to offer support to people working under very trying circumstances. imagine having those nutters sitting outside your workplace all day??

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      Anon

      I know your heart is in the right place, but I found your comment to be really insensitive. Seriously, a “kick arse mix tape”?….

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    Rick Morton

    Isn’t Lent starting soon / hasn’t it started? Maybe the protestors could give up intimidation for 40 Days. And then for the next forever days.

    That would be ace.

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      Anonymous

      Lent starts tomorrow

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      Elle

      The profile of most of these protesters are 45+ women.
      Intimidating? Not so much.

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        Rick Morton

        That’s got nothing to do with the intimidation factor! They’re their to make the women checking in feel guilt and shame; a horrible thing to do to anyone.

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          Elle

          But I think it does. In America there are protest campaigns that are entirely confronting, they shout, rally around in large signs and want to get an emotional response from the women.

          These campaigns consist of majority middle aged women praying.

          I just don’t see how ones possible feelings of shame (which I don’t think every women who gets an abortion would feel) should cancel out someones right to peacefully protest.

          I recognise right exist in a balance. No right is absolute. However these 40 Days for Life people praying don’t do enough undue harm on these women to justify them being silenced or frowned upon.

          I would love to know what you think in response to that Rick. Me and my friends often discuss issues like this, and it’s always great hearing the other side.

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            MK

            Elle, it’s been established in a number of comments here that they don’t just pray. They do approach people entering the clinic, they often carry large signs with a variety of slogans and unpleasant imagery and as one person mentioned, appear to be handing out/preaching misleading information in regards to the connections between abortions and breast cancer.

            You don’t necessarily need to be shouting to intimidate someone at a protest. And that’s what it is. They’ve said consistently that it’s just prayer and it’s been more than proven that they lied.

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      trixie melodian

      Use the link to sign up for the “prayer vigil”, fill up as many spaces as possible, then don’t turn up. If we can ensure that here are a couple fewer protestors trying to intrude on a woman’s private medical decisions, then we have made a difference!

      http://www.40daysforlife.com/

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    C Star

    Interesting approach. I too will be part of the prayer groups outside of the abortion clinics. I for one understand the anxiety and depression that comes with the idea of having to bring a child into the world without a means to support her/him. I understand the terrible notion of being abandoned by your partner as you are left with a child that will alter your entire life.

    The psychological warfare that a poor girl goes through prior to abortion is something nobody can appreciate without first living through it, though the problem society is faced with is that aborting a child does not abort the trauma. Aborting a child does not abort the pain, the hurt, the distress. Aborting i.e. KILLING the child within you leaves a gap that no matter what will never be filled.

    All secular arguments aside, the call for distress which is abortion is left unanswered if the child is unborn. No kind words or medical procedure will every replace the notion of losing the greatest gift a woman could receive.

    the gift of life within them..

    From a non secular viewpoint it is easy to see why abortion is deemed wrong and sinful, though I do not see Catholics pointing fingers and hurling insults at patients. I see only prayers to the Blessed Virgin Mary asking her to care for the children within the womb of a mother that herself needs love.

    Which, is why I will be there praying outside the clinic. Prayer is the ultimate show of love one can offer, it is an understanding that God is love and that by praying for the mother and child they may see a random stranger on bent knees there to support them when nobody else is, Including the abortionist that treats the patient as means to be paid rather than a human being.

    P.S George Carlan… Really? the man that has made a living off riducling others? again, interesting :)

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      Rick Morton

      The vigil isn’t about love. It’s a blatant shame campaign.

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        Cate

        Rick, it’s not meant to be about a shame campaign. I have been before to see what it’s like. The people praying aren’t all catholics (last year there was an Athiest lesbian, which was an interesting dynamic) – and they’re all instructed not to approach the women entering the clinics. Last year during a turn around, one of the women was offered over one year’s accomodation for free, as finances were the reasons why she didn’t have her baby. She wrote in thanking the organisers of the vigil because she was eventually thankful she had her child and that this opportunity was extended to her.

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          Rick Morton

          I’d love to see that letter. One woman apparently says something nice and all the others who suffer the intimidation and shame don’t count?

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            C Star

            Watch this and tell me it’s a shame campaign

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njGnFWr1wN0&feature=share

            The only shame made evident here thus far is your inability to interpret the morality of actions. You so easily disregard what millions have worked towards and in place label an act of sacrifice and courage, love and mercy as …Shame?

            Really?

            http://www.40daysforlife.com/blog/
            please, look through the website. Look through it, watch the video and if you still want to label this as a shame campain then I won’t debate your stance.

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            mike2791

            She didn’t just say something nice, Rick. She gave birth to her child. That child is a human being. The one life saved is worth it. Your attempt to dismiss and diminish what happened there is very telling. You just don’t want to face the truth that an abortion was averted, and now the child is living his/her life. The result of stopping abortion is a child. It’s not a shame campaign.

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            Pip

            I would defend someone’s right to say/act however they wanted to if it only resulted in me feeling shame.
            We restrict rights to free speech (defamation etc) if a second party is unduly harmed. These protesters however are praying for these women and giving them information if they ask for it. This is not an intimidation campaign. Why should they be silenced?

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      Arielle

      Really C Star?! “the abortionist that treats the patient as means to be paid rather than a human being” Thank god someone is doing this job. Otherwise there would still be backyard abortions where women die unneccessarily.

      Unless you currently foster a child or are willing to adopt these children who are you to tell these women what to do? Why don’t you spend more time fostering children or help out at DOCS to support those children who have been born to mothers and fathers who couldn’t support them? Might be more useful.

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        C Star

        I find it interesting that your assumption is we don’t help with foster care and DOCS?
        Humility is something Catholics are taught early, though I will break said humility this one time.

        We support foster care outlets and have help fund build them, actually fun fact, the entire premise of foster care was established by the Catholic church, so was public education for that matter =)
        We have multiple St. Vincent De Paul vans covering the streets of Sydney feeding the poor and needy, these are dedicated individuals who have no pay checks guiding them.
        We have multiple groups establishing and nursing the elderly that are abandoned by their so called “loved ones”
        I could honestly go on and on but that defeats the point.

        Attack is the best means of defence, So I understand why you would make those calls. But you cannot attack an institution you do not seem to know much about, that is unfair and quite frankly very ignorant of you.

        As mentioned above, there are many stories of women who have decided to give birth and have been supported throughout the Childs life. An example would be a child last year who was given full accommodation for a year and in gratitude the mother asked one of the people she spoke with to be the Godfather of the child.

        Those stories do not end there.
        There are cases where women have been guided from abuse and given psychological treatment and care. There are cases where women have been given shelter and food as well as assistance in finding work and establishing themselves.

        Abortion is not the answer.

        Think of this for a moment,
        EVERYONE who supported slavery was free.
        EVERYONE who supports abortion was born.

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      amyintheworld

      C Star, I know several women who have had an abortion. They had plenty of love and support from their families and friends in their decision. Often the reason they chose abortion was because their partner left them and they weren’t going to have the means, even with family help, to support the child. One friend however, was only 16 when she fell pregnant. She was not emotionally mature enough to handle a child, and she knew that.

      For myself, I don’t believe in god. So for me, what use would prayers be? Pray might to you be the ultimate show of love, but how will that help a woman raise a child? How will a prayer help her, when she has no money to buy new clothing or food? How will it help her when she can’t pay the rent and gets evicted? How will it help her if she has a traumatising birth? Many pro-lifers fail to remember that pregnancy is huge thing for the body to go though, it’s not just an issue of giving the baby up for adoption… the physical act of carrying a fetus/baby can wreak havoc on a woman’s body.

      There are so many reasons women have abortions. Sometimes it’s a choice because they can’t provide for a child, sometimes it’s because they do not want one. But there are also medical reasons a fetus may need to be aborted. Some of these times, the reason an abortion is necessary is because the pregnancy will kill the woman.

      You spoke of the psychological warfare that a woman goes through before and after having an abortion… yet you are willingly adding to it. You might think you’re showing love, but I’d be willing to bet that not a single woman who goes through with an abortion who needs to walk past you and the other protesters to get to the clinic will be feeling like they are getting support. They will be likely feel more awful than they already do.

      If you want to pray for women and what you call babies but what I see as fetuses, fine – but do it from home, so that you aren’t adding to the women’s grief.

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        Rose

        I myself have had an abortion and had the love and support of my family and close friends. No church goer on their knees required.

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        C Star

        Hi Amy =)
        Of course there are plenty of women, who go through abortion with love and support. Though sadly the number is outweighed by those who are unsure of themselves and much like your friend question their ability to raise a child.
        We have adoption options readily available, this does not justify the notion of taking the life of an unborn child. And that’s what it comes down to Amy, at what point do we recognise we have a living within the womb of a mother. At what point do we fail to realise there is nothing more sacred and beautiful to women then to have a child born within them. To create life!
        We are alive today to debate the act of abortion. I’m thankful for that. The child your friend aborted is not.
        As mentioned earlier the 40 day for life program does assist women who do not have the funds to support a child. The prayers (as I understand are meaningless to you) are our way of asking for the Intervention of our lady. That she protect the children and grant them safe passage into heaven. Now I know that may seem fantastical and fictional to some, which I too understand, but our very morality stems from that of which is good and evil. Good comes from God, where else would it come from? And on that note the morality of women entering the clinic is brought to light, they question their own actions which in itself is a great thing. One would hope the decision is made with understanding of both sides of the argument.
        Ok, so the pregnancy could kill the woman? Great point! That is generally referred to as a hysterectomy, the complications are different to that of an abortion. Though given common day science and medicine these scenarios are very rare. Though I ask you, if the child was to be born with a disability of sorts, would you abort the child? If so, take a look at someone disabled you know and tell me if you think they don’t live their lives to the fullest.
        Who says we don’t pray at home as well =)
        The lives saved, even if it’s just one (which it isn’t, it’s much more) justify and urge a continuance of this show of prayer and act of compassion.

        Thank you for your kind hearted response =) Good to see there are people who look at the matter with compassion.

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          amyintheworld

          C Star, I understand your passion, but you are assuming that the ‘precious child’ growing inside a woman is that – a person. Most terminations (around the 8-10 week mark) are terminating a formation of cells. There is no brain activity, no bones, no ability to feel or think. There is no child as yet. As Idle Dad says in the comments above, it is a POTENTIAL child, absolutely. I also note that many people, including yourself have said ‘a chance at life’… which sounds to me that there is no life yet… so why is it so terrible to terminate? The late term abortions are so, so rare. They never, ever occur when a woman just changes her mind. It doesn’t happen.
          I’m very confused by your comment about how a pregnancy that could endanger the woman’s life being called a hysterectamy.. I think you’re confused. A hysterectamy is a medical procedure which means that a woman can’t fall pregnant at all – the female version of a vasectamy.
          If you pray from home, that’s good for you – but you have failed to address the fact that while YOU believe you are offering support to these women, what is actually happening is that you are making it worse for them. That’s a fact that many women can verify, because they are the ones getting the termination, and they are the ones that feel rubbish when they have people wave cards in their faces or stand there praying for them.

          I also find your comment that there is nothing more sacred for a woman that to have a child inside her offensive. What of women who don’t want children? If they never fall pregnant does that mean that they are failing to reach their full potential as women?

          I also completely and utterly disagree with your comment that good comes from god. Good comes from people. People are good because they want to be, not because some god made it that way. People might say that are good because of bad, but I say: there is good without religion and there is good with religion. People will be good or bad whether religion and god is there or not. You might disagree with me, and that it your right. But to me, talking about god is pointless. I don’t believe there is a god, so arguing your point with him won’t get you anywhere.

          At the end of the day, it seems that for people who are pro-life care more about quantity of life compared to quality. As long as the foetus/baby lives and is born, it doesn’t matter then what kind of life they have, only that they’re alive. It doesn’t matter if being pregnant and having a child would lower the woman’s quality of life. What about the woman’s life? Is she not important?
          Is abortion were illegal, it would still happen, only far more dangerously. It would also mean that women lose control of their own bodies, which is a terrifying thought to me.

          I understand you mean well, but I bed you to reconsider, and just to pray from home. You are causing these women mental/emotional harm, no matter what you tell yourself.

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            C Star

            Hi Amy,
            To your point about the formation of cells I ask you, at what point do we stop being a formation of cells?
            We are in essence exactly that, which faults to differentiate an unborn child from a born adult.

            NO brains, no activity, no bones, no abilitiy to think or feel? Are you sure of this?
            The fetus is a genetically distinct human person – even as a single cell, that fetus is alive and is a person with the complete genetic information of the adult. The only thing that is required to allow that fetus to grow into an adult human is time and nutrition.

            If a fetus is not a person, when does it become a person? And what is added to the fetus to make it into a person? What else could the offspring off two humans be but a human person?

            You’re right, I was confused about hysterectomies. My apologies for causing confusion. Admittedly I haven’t enough knowledge with regards to the female anatomy. Though I don’t think thats what we are really debating here is it? Are we having a scientific conversation or one based on morality?

            Explain to me how offering another option to lonely and often desperate teenagers/young woman is “making it worse” The lives saved through the 40 day for life campaign are wrong are they?
            Soooo what you’re saying is that life conceived is wrong? Then are you wrong? Am I wrong? I would suggest you come down to one of the “Shame campaigns” and see for yourself before you pass judgement. Nobody waves posters in the faces of others.

            Of course you would find my comment offensive. You clearly do not understand the miracle that is the creation of life… oh wait, sorry.. In remaining secular I will imply the probability of falling pregnant and the unspoken bond between a mother and a daughter during the 9 months of which she carries. Tell me then, what is more sacred?
            You didn’t really answer my question, I asked you where good comes from? People? Who taught people? If that is the case sleeping around whilst being married and murdering jews is acceptable because I have as a person said it is “good”…Surely you question yourself with that mentality?

            No, at the end of the day you support Murder. There is no denying it. Scientifically, morally, from a humanistic or theological perspective. Abortion is a selfish act, there is no other reason for such an act. At the end of the day, you are alive to debate otherwise. A privilege you could have easily had removed. You should thank your mother.

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              Kris2040

              The thing is, C Star, most people don’t share your religious views, and have different ideas of when life starts. You have every right to believe what you want, and live by it. You don’t, however, have the right to force your beliefs (and that IS all they are, beliefs. They’re not truths) on anyone else. And by having your prayer vigils outside, that’s what you’re doing.
              I don’t think kids should be christened into churches when they are too young to make up their own minds about faith, but you don’t see me picketing churches. The way things are currently, those of us who don’t share your beliefs have the option to exercise their right to an abortion. Or not. But we don’t need to follow your way of living to be good people. K?

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              amyintheworld

              I did answer your question. I told you good comes from people. That’s my opinion of it. We’re conscious beings and so we can think about good and bad and moralitiies etc. I heartily believe that I was not ‘given’ my goodness from any god. People find it through society, and that’s where they’ll find the bad also. It’s about the choices we make that mean we are good or bad.

              Again, I disagree with you. I do not agree with murder, because I do not believe that abortion is murder, so yes, I am denying that. You asked if I was sure that there was no brain, bones or feelings in an early fetus. Yes, I am. Because scientists and doctors that have studied for years years and years have confirmed that there is no brain developed yet (thus no thoughts, consciousness), no nerves (thus no pain can be felt), and definetly no bones. Yes, there is all the genetic information there to BECOME a person, but the fetus is NOT YET a person. It has the potention to be one. But so does an unfertilised egg. Are you praying every time you menstruate? I doubt it.

              The reason I say you are making is because you are NOT offering an alternative. I know you mentioned there are some services that pro-lifers support which offer ways of helping a woman, but can you guarantee that it will help EVERY woman who would otherwise need a termination? Are you personally offering to assist each and every woman that passes you into a clinic support for the rest of her child’s life until they are 18? Are you personally offering a guarantee that each woman’s life wouldn’t be an any danger is they continued with a pregnancy that they didn’t want/couldn’t go through with? Can you guarantee that if a woman gave birth and then gave the baby they couldn’t care for up for adoption that every single child would be adopted out into a loving home? That they would absolutely not be at all be stuck in and out of foster homes? Are you offering every single one of these woman or girls a place to live?
              Of course you can’t and you aren’t. So what possible alternative could there be for EVERY SINGLE woman?
              I got my period when I was 11 years old. That meant that I could fall pregnant at 11 years old. I have a friend who got hers at 9. If either of us were raped, and fell pregnant, would you expect a CHILD to carry and birth a baby? It’s a possibility.

              Again, I very much disagree that abortion is a selfish act. I am a believer in QUALITY of life, not necessarily QUANTITY. If a woman gave birth to a child that was going to be resented, or starve, or be abused, or who would be so poor that they weren’t constantly hungry and sick, I believe that before that child was ever a child, before they were ever a person, it would be far, far kinder to terminate the possibility of that life before it starts. Sure, there would be something selfish in some abortions, but mostly they are far better off having occurred than not. I know you disagree with me, and I’ll never change your mind. You will never, ever change mine. But what would be nice if you would at least realise that what you continue to say is offering women another choice, is quite hollow and meaningless. You do not truly intend on offering every single woman emotional and financial support and assurance for life, however well-meaning you might be, so my point stands: you are making it worse, because the decision to have an abortion is difficult and emotionally painful, and you ARE making these women feel worse. I know this because those I know who’ve had abortions told me how terrible they felt with people telling them they were committing murder. Which again, I BELIEVE, and many others also, that they DID NOT.

              I’m ducking out now, but I’m too angry to continue reading about the idea that people want to take away a woman’s choice.

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      Acanberramum

      No, prayer is not the ultimate show of love, compassion is. And you are showing none of it.

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        C Star

        Love constitutes of truth. the truth in this matter is that ignorance is not bliss.

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          Acanberramum

          Probably best not to start talking about ignorance, don’t you think?

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      JL

      Maybe you could volunteer at an orphanage or volunteer with foster kids? Or foster some children or adopt!!! This would be a much better thing to do for the world than “pray”! seriously…go and help all the unwanted babies out there instead of trying to create more unwanted babies! cos if by you ‘praying’ outside these clinics forces a woman to keep a child she cant support and then needs to adopt it out then what kind of life is that for the child! there is what?? 300 adoptions a year in australia and like 20000 children needing homes i read below,,,go help them, and leave the choices of woman up to the woman!

      ps….. if ‘prayer’ is freaking amazing….shouldnt u be able to do it in your home and it work just as well…..or is there special tricks of the trade?

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      Kate

      Do you know what makes the rate of abortions go down? Keeping them legal and easy to get and teaching everyone about contraception and making THAT legal and easy to get. Not shaming people who are in a bad place. What if they have been raped? Should they be forced to continue this? I have had a termination. It wasn’t easy but it was certainly the right thing to do. My body. My choice.

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      hh

      Good on you C Star for posting and for praying.And agree about George Carlan,what a loser!How anyone can actually like him is a BIG mystery.Beautifully said too about the Blessed Virgin Mary.

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        Sigh.

        Pretty sure ‘God’ can hear you praying whether you are at home, or outside an abortion clinic. The fact that you feel the need to do it at a clinic, instead of in private, just goes to show that you are not in fact praying for THEM, but just so you can say you have prayed, and feel good about it yourselves. THAT is selfish. But it’s still your choice. Just as it’s my choice to get an abortion if I need to.

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      Mabsy

      If you want to pray go to church. Don’t impose your fantastical, fanatical nonsense on everyone else.

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        mike2791

        Mabsy, if you want to write something, start a private diary. Don’t impose your _, _ nonsense on everyone else.

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      Open minded mum

      I had one many years ago, it did NOT leave an unwanted gap in my life. If anything, the procedure gave me immense relief. I can honestly say I have no regret or sadness over it, I almost never even think about it.
      9 years later, I had a much wanted, planned baby and motherhood is a (wonderful) struggle at times, even being as “prepared’ as I was.
      I had an abortion, I also and many others in my life consider myself a good person SHOCK HORROR

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        Nic

        Agreed! I had an abortion 12 years ago in my late 20s. There is no gap in my life because of it and I don’t have any pain, hurt or distress left over from it. It was a very clear decision for me and while I have had the odd thought over the years about how old that child would be now, it does not cause me any sadness. I KNOW I made the right decision because I know the pain, hurt and distress that THE CHILD would have had to deal with given who the father was, would be much more than any pain I could’ve gone through with the abortion. I now have a 3 year old who was very much planned and who has a wonderful father. My first pregnancy could never have resulted in anything but trauma for me and the child.

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      Anon

      Surely the power of prayer is strong enough that you can pray from somewhere other than outside the clinics. All you are doing is making things even worse patients of the clinic, they very people you are supposedly there for.

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        Kris2040

        And also they may not necessarily be there for abortions. They also do general family planning, pap smears, counselling as well.

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      trixie melodian

      Most studies show that the main emotion women feel after an abortion is relief. Of course there is some sadness at what could have been, possibly some guilt if they have been faced with sanctimonious zealots accusing them of killing their babies, but the overwhelming emotion is relief, and the conviction that they have made the right decision.

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    Mila

    I have to admit, when I first read this, I was a little confused. If I was a nurse, doctor or receptionist at an abortion clinic, I would imagine that I’d already have to have pretty strong convictions about where I stand on abortion. As well-meaning as it is, I don’t think I would need the support or reassurance of a stranger to get on with my job. Furthermore, if was feeling guilty about having an abortion, I don’t know how much better a cupcake would make me feel.  
     
    Personally, I would like to live in a world where the doors of an abortion clinic don’t evoke feelings of shame, guilt or doubt. I would like abortion to be completely legal in all states of Australia, heck, the whole world. I’m from Queensland and as it stands at the moment, abortion is still illegal, unless it poses a threat to the mother’s life. So in many cases the parties involved have to quote untrue reasons as to why the abortion is taking place. Why are the real reasons not acceptable? Not to mention, they risk being charged for a criminal offence if investigated.
     
    For me, the desired outcomes are:
    - change in outdated legislation
    - new regulations that keep protesters a certain distance from clinics
    - increased impartial education about abortion.
     
    I think we all know that baked goods don’t achieve those things.
     
    Nonetheless, I think the giving of food is one of the most generous, kindest gestures once can do for another. I think that if you are interested in doing this, then you are a sweet, lovely person.
     
    So if this is a small way to provide support to those both seeking and administering an important medical service, then why not. It doesn’t solve the critical political issues surrounding abortion, but it is nice. And who can argue with nice.

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      An Idle Dad

      Got it in one. Kudos!

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    JosieY

    Great idea! I’m giving up chocolate for lent, so I’ll just mosey on down to the local clinic and give it to them instead! Good plan, good plan.

    (but oh, my chocolate…)

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    JL

    This is great!! I live about an hour away from the Surry hills clinic and am bed bound so i might send a card! and some tea!! i remember when i had my abortion back in 2000 i was offered sweet tea and monte carlos and it was so nice and comforting!
    Send them the good bikkies everyone!! The yummy creamy ones cos they are the best!!!

    Im off to order some bushells from woolies online right now!!
    I will spread the word!!

    :)

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    Anonymous

    Says they don’t hold signs yet in the photo they are?

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      Kris2040

      That’d be them not intimidating people and just having a nice innocuous silent protest.

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        Anonymous

        A silent protest would be much better. Just don’t understand why in the article it says they don’t hold signs and then mamamia have put in a photo of hem holding things

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    Guest

    I’m as pro-choice as they come but I don’t like this idea, or think it is very well thought through.

    I think the gesture could be badly misinterpreted and play into the hands of the ‘other side’. “Omg, can you believe it, they are celebrating murder with cake!” As pro-choice as this country is this activity could be spun to not play well with those who do find abortion a little bit iffy. As a PR exercise for the ’cause’, it could be a disaster.

    On a personal level I think it intrusive. Abortion for many is a solemn, difficult time and many women and couples want privacy, not lots of well meaning people coming and going from the clinic. You may be on their side, but on a privacy level it could be just as bad as having the 40 days people standing outside.

    Like the PR comment and my concern about how this could play into the hands of other organisations and the media, have you considered this might actually offend some women? Some women have tortured themselves into this decision, some are possibly pro-life but going ahead anyway for various reasons. This is to celebratory for me, like congratulations on your abortion here is some cake, you sure showed those protestors! It doesn’t come across as supportive to the women, they come across as caught in the crossfire between two opposing groups.

    I think what would be better, if it doesn’t exist already, is an abortion support person group. Many women keep abortions to themselves, they don’t have anyone to drive them to and from the appointment and sit with them in the waiting room. A discreet driver and companion service would be a better help, IMO. This just smacks of wanting to stick to to the protestors, without proper thought for the needs of the women involved.

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      Rick Morton

      Hmm, interesting point. But the cake isn’t for celebrating. No one celebrates an abortion. It’s a mark of good will, a show of support. A little nod that someone is thinking of how difficult a decision it was. Unlike those protesting…

      It’s not like we’ll be going in demanding to hand the cake over personally to the women. It’s symbolic, visual.

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        Anon for this

        Personally, I can think of many, many other ways to show support and goodwill than delivering a cake. When I had an abortion, I didn’t need “a symbolic nod” from a stranger that I was doing the right thing. And I certainly didn’t need cake or watching my caregiver eat cake. I needed privacy. I really hope MM reconsiders their support for this proposal. It’s well-meaning but very inappropriate.

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          Rick Morton

          We’re only their as a counterweight to the prayer vigil. Going in, leaving again.

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            Anon for this

            I would urge everyone who is going to drop off a cake to ask someone who’s been through an abortion and ask them what they really, truly think. I’m sure many people will agree with me that while the bake and drop proposal is well-meaning, it’s inappropriate. Privacy is what’s most important in a clinic. Leave the counterweight symbolism for another time.

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              Rick Morton

              I do personally know people who have been through that. Everyone is different.

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    mmpl

    I might see you there then Mia! Except I’m going to be a part of the prayer group…You probably don’t see it that way but I hope you realise this all comes from good intentions.

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      Peta

      In the interests of mutual understanding, I’m interested to hear what good intentions you hope to execute by standing vigil?

      I wish you wouldn’t do what you plan to do. Your participating in the vigil will achieve in the very best case scenario unnecessary heartache and in the worst, a woman feeling pressured to give birth to a baby she cannot provide for adequately.

      I don’t know if you’ve ever come in contact with a child living in poverty in Australia, but if not, know that even with the welfare systems we have in place, their upbringing is fraught with problems. Poor education, not enough food, not enough clothing, problems with healthcare, mental health issues, sometimes even homelessness.

      Why would you encourage a woman to give birth to a child where the only upbringing they can look forward to is never having a proper chance?

      Let alone all the other reasons a woman may execute their right to choose.

      3 times a week, I walk past a woman who protests outside an abortion clinic. The placards she has adorning herself aren’t factual, depicting mostly images of late-term miscarriages and displaying ‘facts’ with no proven scientific basis.

      I obviously can’t argue with your religious arguments, as I don’t share your belief. However, just like you are afforded a right to worship and believe what you will – please consider affording others the same freedoms and rights.

      Also, before you believe the ‘scientific reasoning’ offered by many pro-lifers, please take the time to research the other side as well to ensure they aren’t lying to you.

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    odette

    I’ll leave this one to George Carlin:

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      Tamara

      George Carlin was so great. That passage is so great.

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      Lindsay

      Perfectly said.

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      Kim

      Exactly!

      I looked at the 40 Days for Life website and their isn’t any information for women who decide not to have an abortion. They haven’t provided any information or links for charities, maternity homes, neonatal care, or what they need to do now. They only care about stopping abortion not helping women.

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      Mooner

      What does he mean by saying Conservatives are killing Doctors?

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        Steph

        Mooner, in the US, since 1993, there have been 7 murders of abortion clinic staff: 4 doctors and 2 nurses and 1 security guard. In the same period there have been 9 attempted murders. Since 1984, 14 clinics damaged by bombings, arson and other attacks (acid being poured over the entry, cars been driven through windows etc).

        In Australia, in 2001 a security guard was killed at a clinic in Melbourne, and in 2009 a Perth clinic was firebombed.

        This is what he was referring to.

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          hh

          And what about the rates of late term abortions?Can you please provide those numbers?They would be far more shocking.

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            MJ

            Um are you SERIOUS???
            Because the murder of people doing their job isn’t shocking enough, right.
            Unbelievable.

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            An Idle Dad

            Late term abortions aren’t done for kicks, they’re very serious and traumatic events.

            Your soul is a cold, dark, hateful place. I’m genuinely sorry for you.

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              hh

              The deaths of these health care workers is indeed tragic and wrong but yet today no one has thrown their hands up in horror and disbelief at the amount of deaths of unborn children,only to talk about the rights of all of us out of the womb.

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              An Idle Dad

              Yeah, I get that you don’t get it.

              Empathy for actual people is difficult. Empathy for potential people with imaginary happy rainbow of joy lives is easy.

              You’ve made your choice. Luckily the law lets others make a different one.

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              hh

              Gawd,Keep yourself in check, please….

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              hh

              And as stated at the top of the comments “take away the right to life then you take away all human rights”…..

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              An Idle Dad

              To have rights, you’ve got to exist in the first place. Early term abortions fall into this category.

              I understand that in late term abortions, you’re happy for a child to live a life of chronic pain and confusion for the time they are here. As a parent, I make decisions about what is best for my child.

              You don’t get it, but when I chose, I chose against suffering.

              Compassion. Get some.

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              hh

              I do have compassion idle dad and that is for the unborn child who has no choice….

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              An Idle Dad

              Yeah, that’s my point. Once the child is born, your compassion evaporates. So they suffer, what’s that to you?

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            Steph

            hh, I think you and I would agree that they are shocking but for very different reasons. What disturbs me more though is that your statement seems to indicate that you find these murders of service practitioners justifiable on some level.

            The premise you are working from “abortion = murder” not only demonstrates a profound lack of understanding of science but sociology as well (which has already been demonstrated repeatedly throughout your participation in the comments). I would suggest you do your own research. You may find it eye opening.

            Yet, if abortion is considered murder, how do you parse the fact that 50% of pregnancies result in a miscarriage? Do you then blame the women whose bodies are unable to sustain a growing fetus?

            38 states in the US have “fetal homicide laws” that have predominately been used to imprison women who have suffered miscarriages.

            You talk about the rights of the child, yet ignore the rights of the mother. That, at, its very core, is the giant hypocrisy of “pro-life”.

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              Mish

              I think she’s referring to late term abortions i.e: in the 3rd trimester when if delivered it would be viable… I consider myself to be pro-choice but I too struggle with late term abortion unless its necessary to save the mother’s life or for a fetus with VERY severe abnormalities/ disabilities. Two MD’s need to approve the procedure for over 20 weeks gestation, but this can be approved for a variety of non-life threatening situations such as socio- economic changes or loss of a partner. I think in these cases wherever possible the child should be delivered and adopted to a loving family- there are plenty of childless couples desperate to adopt.

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              Steph

              MIsh, the issue of adoption is discussed in much detail further down the page.

              This link also provides some statistics:
              http://www.mamamia.com.au/parenting/this-heartbreaking-ad-for-adoption-is-real/

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          Mooner

          Oh wow, that’s awful. I understand now. I didn’t get the connection when he just said “Doctors”

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    Dee of Adelaide

    Finally something useful to do with my maternity leave (other than, you know, cleaning up after Red Rocket a thousand times a day).

    The Adelaide clinic is local to me too so I can drop stuff off each day!

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    Meryl

    Thank you for posting this article. I am currently waiting on medical test results (should hopefully get them in about 24 hours) which will determine whether I will need to terminate my pregnancy. I can’t imagine having to go through such a traumatic experience made even more traumatic by a bunch of red neck freaks. Every one has the right to their opinion, but to try and push your opinions on others (of whom you’ve never walked a day in their shoes) is wrong. I am grateful to the clinic workers for their valuable work. I too will show my support to them and their patients (which could be me) throughout the next 40 days.

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      Nicki

      Here’s hoping you can proceed with your pregnancy, Meryl. And I agree with everything you’ve said here xx

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      NewMum

      Thinking of you Meryl. Hopefully you will receive good news.

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      JosieY

      God be with you Meryll, and She will be whatever you decide.

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      Sara

      I hope everything works out for you, Meryl. Such a horribe situation you’re in *hugs*

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    Loulee

    I’m disappointed by some of the pro lifers out there – and some of their comments on this page. I support each and every individual – and especially woman as we are the child bearers – in having complete control over their own body and the important decisions they make about it. But I’m not going to stand outside a pro lifers office or church or house and make a big deal about it. Nor do I think they should use passive aggression masquerading as a silent protest to get their point across. As a few people have posted here why don’t they just get together somewhere private and have a prayer session. Or as one wonderful person wrote in their comment get out there and support people in need.

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    alyssa

    I don’t think I will be able to get to the location to drop off cake so I will post them some lollies and a card to let them know they are doing a wonderful thing!

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    hh

    The idea that the protesters are not trying to support the women and the unborn child is interesting.The whole point of the vigil is to HELP women who feel they have no other option but to kill their own.Also,the argument that pro-lifers don’t try to provide services to these women to enable them to raise their child in incorrect.They will be told about adoption agencies,they are services available to help.

    This is a great thing that these people are trying to do and actually is much more admirable then bringing baked goods to staff workers.

    There is much more at stake here then just a womens right to choose.There is also the unborn childs rights.Once you exit the womb then your rights as a human are protected but what about when you are still in the womb?All the baby wants is to be loved and protected by its mother,nothing more OR less.

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      Anonymous

      Thank you for being brave enough to post an alternative opinion.

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        lani93

        Baby don’t know what it want.

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          hh

          Maybe so ,but we as intellectual beings know what the baby NEEDS and that is life.

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            rudyroo

            Yes, and as intellectual beings we also have AUTONOMY and that is freedom of choice.

            Can I just ask, HH, since you seem to have a fair bit of insite into the prayer vigil group, why are’n't these people outside the relevant departments that deal with adoption? Praying for an awareness and improvement and simplisation of adoption processes? If adoption is the preferred alternative, why aren’t they so vocal about how the difficult adoption procedures lead to more abortions and therefore lead to murder?
            Rather than shaming those people in the hard place, why aren’t they actively and passively, using similar tactics to name and shame those that make the adoption procedings so difficult?
            Genuinely interested.

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              Kaz

              I’d also like to know why they arent silently protesting outside peoples houses whilst they are having unmarried and unprotected sex? I’m all for the right to an opinion – but isnt protesting at an abortion clinic – protesting at the wrong end of the race? Clearly when the decision has been made to terminate a pregnancy – the ship has sailed. Lets prevent the unwanted pregnancy through education rather than limiting the choices that are available to women.

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              Peta

              Because it’s easier to guilt the weak than actually make active change.

              This way, they can achieve instant satisfaction that their presence has made a woman hang their head in shame rather than the long process of trying to engage an organisation who is too underfunded to make a positive change.

              At it’s root, this whole process is really about shame. Shaming women that they’re sexualised and making choices about their childbearing future.

              Shaming women into abandoning their choices, career paths, and quest for equality and into a set role of maternity.

              If the pro-lifers really wanted to reduce abortion rates, they’d rally for safe sex education and availability of contraception – but they seem to be pretty quiet on that front.

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        hh

        Hi Anonymous

        No bravery needed when you are advocating for the rights of the unborn who are the most vulnerable of all.I find a lot of people who respond to these types of articles just go with the crowd and don’t actually THINK about what the serious implications of abortion really are.We have become a society where killing your own child is acceptable and has become a trivial matter reduced down to banter about baking!!!And even more of a frightening issue is IVF.

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          rudyroo

          I think you come across as rather arrogant and self righteous to suggest that people, especially those who respond here, “don’t actually THINK about what the serious implications of abortion really are”
          And I”m offended that you suggest this matter has become trivial.
          You are entitled to your opinions, to make your choices and your decisions. And I would never impose my opinions and beliefs upon you, so please don’t do so to others.

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          Guest

          I’m sorry, you’re going to have to enlighten me as to what is so frightening about IVF?

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            An Idle Dad

            Catholics don’t approve of IVF because the creation of the embryo occurs outside the womb. Flaunts God’s will.

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              Guest

              Interesting.

              hh, as someone who cannot have anymore children “naturally” due to a doctors mistake (mistake is being polite, major f**kup is the term I’d use) …. I’m pretty thankful for the option of IVF.

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              LaurenHC

              I’m friends with triplets born from IVF- three of the lovelist guys you could ever meet. When they were at high school their religion teacher (who knew full well that they were IVF) preached to their class about how IVF was extremely immoral. One of them had a quiet word with the teacher after the class about how he was IVF and found it a bit offensive, and could he please refrain from giving such lectures in the future. (with far more dignity than I ever would have had!) He said ‘if it wasn’t for IVF we wouldn’t be here, would you prefer that?’ and the teacher said ‘you’re nice kids, but your parents acted immorally and your existence is against God’s will.’ He literally said that. My friend, with utmost dignity, said ‘okay, well you’re entitled to your opinion and I respect that’ and walked out with his head held high.

              I hate the Catholic church.

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            Elizabeth

            Exactly…what is it about IVF that you don’t like??

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          Lilybet

          Yes hh…I thought long and hard about the implications I went AHEAD with my pregnancy. As a single, casual worker at the time I would be looking at poverty, no-one to look after my child, no savings, no maternity leave – NOTHING. It would of been irresponsible to bring a child into the world where I just didn’t have the financial means to look after this child. When you are financially strapped this effects you emotionally just by the pure stress of it all. So…the it takes a village to raise a child is just pure crap. Pollyanna fantasy world nonsense.

          I didn’t want to go through with the pregnancy and give away the child as that would be waaay too traumatic for myself and the child. I didn’t want someone on my doorstep 20 years later demanding to know why I gave them away at birth.

          No-one in their right mind thinks this is trivial hh. People who have terminations DO NOT take it lightly. No-one. I fully realised the implications of my abortion. I’m okay, emotionally sound and I believe I made the right decision. There is nothing lingering or what could of been. I had to make a decision based on the circumstances then. I wasn’t going to have a child ‘just in case’. I’m 38 and still single and childless but I don’t berate myself seven years later. It’s pointless.

          I don’t know what you mean about the ‘serious implications’…what?? I haven’t felt or been made to face any mystery ‘serious implications’

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            melmyers

            Yes, I was curious about the ‘serious implications’ too. What are they exactly? You’re going to have spell that one out for us, hh.

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        An Idle Dad

        Several people have posted alternative opinions without dog-whistling ‘murder’.

        No cake for you!

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          hh

          I never mentioned the word murder but I am glad you are willing to call it what it is.

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            An Idle Dad

            I was just saying what you really meant, which you’ve confirmed.

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              hh

              Yes,absolutely ,it is murder and of the lowest kind to.Killing the unborn and helpless…..still amazes me.

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              Sair

              HH, gee, I sure am glad you have their best interests at heart. You speak about this as though you yourself know what is best for these women because you’ve been there yourself and know what a scary and traumatic time this is for them. A little empathy and open-mindedness goes a long way.

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            Evie

            If killing the unborn is murder, then why is there no law saying so when the unborn are killed in car crashes etc? What a ridiculously simplistic way to look at it.

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              sweetsparrow

              Not true. A law protecting the unborn already exists in Queensland and will soon come into effect in Western Australia also. See Perth Now article dated February 25th 2012.

              http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/fetal-homicide-laws-to-be-introduced-in-western-australia/story-e6frg14c-1226281446135

              “Fetal homicide laws to be introduced in Western Australia”

              OFFENDERS who kill an unborn child by assaulting a pregnant mother or by dangerous driving face a life sentence under historic new laws.

              The laws will, for the first time, recognise an unborn baby as a human life.

              The Sunday Times can reveal that Attorney-General Christian Porter is drafting the new laws and will introduce them into State Parliament later this year.

              Under present laws, an unborn baby has no legal status and is not recognised by the courts.

              But Mr Porter said the new fetal homicide laws would create a new criminal code offence of causing death or grievous bodily harm to an unborn child.

              Based on a law already in force in Queensland, it would carry a maximum penalty of life imprisonment.

              Offenders who kill or intend to kill an unborn baby by assaulting a mother will face mandatory life imprisonment – the same as a murder charge in all but exceptional circumstances.

              Full article: http://www.perthnow.com.au

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      An Idle Dad

      Current stats for Australia (and anyone, please feel free to correct me) is around 20,000 kids requiring adoption, around 300 kids adopted per year.

      Sounds like a lot of pro-lifers talking the talk but not walking the walk to me.

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        hh

        What GP,idle dad, do you know of that is going to say to someone wanting an abortion “have you considered adoption”?

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          An Idle Dad

          But the question itself is actually bullshit, right? If a GP did say that, they’d know that they are really saying “How about a life as a state ward”?

          My question to you is – are you adopting? Or are unwanted children someone else’s problem?

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            hh

            Ridiculous!They are plenty of stable loving parents in Australia who would want to adopt a child!The whole reason that the rates are so low is because people only want to have a biological child.They see it as their right.Hence,the massive rates of IVF.

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              An Idle Dad

              You know those two sentences don’t support each other, right? How can plenty of people want to adopt, and not want to adopt at the same time?

              Plus you didn’t answer the question. So that’s a ‘no’ for you personally helping out unwanted children.

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              hh

              Point taken about contradicting myself.Because IVF is becoming the norm the rates of adoption are very low considering the amount of children that are desperate for a loving home.And ,yes,I have considered adoption.Don’t know if my husband or my own children have though!

              People want their own biological child,they don’t want to look at others that might be in greater need then their as yet to be unconcevied child.

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              amyintheworld

              hh, what is your authority for the fact that people ‘only want to have a biological child’? Perhaps you should do a little research into adoption – in Australia especially, it is incredibly difficult. IVF is actually a far simpler process, and from what a few friends who’ve undergone it have told me, cheaper. The reason people are not adopting has little to do with their lack of desire to give a kid a home, and more to do with how very difficult it is to adopt a kid.

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              An Idle Dad

              You’ve considered it, but haven’t spoken to your husband about it?

              Wow – what a core value this must be to you.

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            AMDG

            when coucelling, I always offer as an option to the mother that i will adopt the child. Alot of your comments seem to be about telling us what we d, you might want to go up to a coucellor one day and ASK them what they are doing, instead just publishing your own assumed ideas of what you are projecting them as doing. I’ve read many of the comments on this page so far, and you’ve all pretty much got the wrong idea about whats going on. Try having a dialogue (btw diologue is two ways and suggests that you are open to hearing them speak for themselves and their actions, rather than just talking at them and running off as so many of them do) with the next councellor you see on the street affiliated with 40 Days. See how that goes, then you can come back here and post INFORMED opinions about what they are doing, instead of publishing assumptions, adding fuel to a fire BLAZING on assumptions, as i have seen on this site. Cheers. AMDG

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              Lana

              Please stick to one name. You may post as often as you like but not with multiple names. Thanks

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        Sarah

        This is the worst part. My aunt is a child psychologist and sees many children living in foster homes – sadly, due to the lack of foster carers, many of these kids are stuck with ‘families’ who use them for the tax breaks. Maybe I would have more respect for the pro-lifers if they got off their arses and actively did something to help kids in state care. There is nothing to gain from protesting outside clinics, intimidating women and treating them as murderers.

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          hh

          Sarah,how do you know that they don’t try to help foster children?

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            rudyroo

            By the same arguement HH, how do YOU know the reasons why people are having IVF? I can guarantee you it isn’t purely to ensure a biological connection.

            And also, in your above comments, you have highlighted yet another issue with adoption…the other family members..husband, current children and their wishes.
            Contradicting yourself seems to be a common thing for you. Can I suggest to you to take some of your emotive responses away from your thoughts and then examine the two sides of the argument?

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            Cabbagefairy

            My boss is a foster parent. The life these kids have is aweful. The kids get sent back to parents that are unable to look after them, then get bounced back to the foster home then back to the parents over and over again. A fetus is not the same as a baby, it’s cells growing into a baby. Those people who don’t think women should have a choice not to have a baby if they don’t think they can support that child need to look at the bigger picture. This whole thing just makes me so mad do sorry if is sort of a jumble!

            One of my best friends had an abortion and the amount of pain she went through making that decision was enough without these people adding to it.

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        Mooner

        I don’t understand this stat when we are constantly bombarded with stories of people who want to adopt but can’t and who look to adopt children from Africa/Asia.

        Are you talking about older children who have been removed from their homes who need to be fostered… which can potentially lead on to adoption?

        I do not know statistics on numbers of newborn babies offered for adoption versus number of adoptions of newborn babies, but it’s hard to imagine that a newborn baby offered for adoption will live a life as a ward of the state as you suggest below.

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          An Idle Dad

          It’s a real statistic. Regardless of red tape impediments to adoption of Australian children by Australians, it puts to death the lie that adoption is the happy future of unwanted children.

          And surely, if the pro-lifers were so pro-adoption, they’d stick with it, right? Every child, even born ones, are important, right?

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            Cate

            If pro-lifers genuinely cared about mothers and babies they would be spending money providing refuges for women escaping domestic violence, campaigns for increasing financial benefits for single mothers, financial support for children with disabilities (carers get paid almost nothing) and funds to support services for female victims of rape. Instead of standing outside clinic waving placards of dead fetuses.

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            Mooner

            Astounding. It seems like there is something wrong with our adoption laws then if there are so many babies available, so many people who want to adopt, and the two are not being matched up.

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          Lindsay

          Part of the problem is that many people only wish to adopt a newborn but the adoption process in Australia takes so long that the kids will be toddlers by the time they could go to their new home… Unfortunately this turns a lot of folks off of the idea.

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            An Idle Dad

            It wouldn’t turn off a pro-lifer, surely? All that talk about the value of each child couldn’t be defected by a few extra forms and a few years wait?

            Unless…

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        Emma

        Hi Idle Dad, re the adoption rates, my understanding is that the Government is keen for kids to stay with their parents. So there are two kinds of adoption – full adoption, which is what we generally think of when we say ‘adoption’; and I don’t know what it’s called but a type of ‘shared’ adoption, where the parent/s still has rights to see the child,be involved in their life etc by law. Most children are available under the latter kind of adoption, which is not as appealing and generally end up in foster care if they’re lucky. I don’t have experience of this myself, but two friends do.

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          An Idle Dad

          So you are saying there are 300 ‘full adoptions’ and an unknown, unreported number of ‘shared’ adoptions?

          Could be true. I’m guessing most of the 20,000 kids aren’t in shared adoption scenarios though.

          Ward of the state is still the most likely outcome of an unwanted child, not a rosy, soft filter, crescendo of string instrument adoption.

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            Cara

            Its known as permanent care and as far as I can imagine is one of the most selfless things anyone can do for a child. As i understand it, its where the birth parents are on the birth certificate and have the right to see the child but they can legally never gain back custody of the child. You as a parent to the child have all parental rights and responsibilities except you aren’t on their birth certificate and their parents are still in their life , whether thats a good thing or a bad thing.

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              Cara

              Just to clarify I meant selfless for the new parents not the parents who have the child removed from their care, obviously!

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              An Idle Dad

              No doubt, I agree it is selfless – I understood what you meant! :) . And absolutely a good thing.

              My point is less about the regulatory options, but the general point that adoption is the alternate future from abortion.

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            Emma

            I agree, agree, agree

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        stretchyprincess

        Hi Idle,

        I’d love to know where you are getting these stats? As a pro-lifer I would love to adopt, but thought it wasn’t possible here (or at least not possible to adopt an infant).

        I have tried looking into it and found it v difficult & confusing.

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          An Idle Dad

          http://www.mamamia.com.au/parenting/this-heartbreaking-ad-for-adoption-is-real/

          Looks like my stats were wrong. Total 400 adoptions, including 215 overseas adoptions. And 32,000 kids in care.

          Just so I’m clear, you can arrange your life to spend 40 days outside a clinic, but you didn’t investigate adoption enough to even realise it was legal? While saying people shouldn’t abort and put the kids up for adoption?

          So confused. Please tell me I’ve got it wrong.

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        Evie

        Could not agree more! If these people really want the abortion rate lowered, then they should stop singing songs and figure out ways to make adoption a whole lot easier for Australians. Did you know that you can’t adopt in Australia once you turn 35? What women would want to go through pregnancy, give her child away and then have it spend a life being bounced from foster home to foster home, having no real family of their own? I for one would rather terminate something that has no idea what or who it is, than put an actual living, breathing, feeling child through a life of such loneliness and confusion.

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      Kris2040

      I posted below, but I’ll reply here, too. They may be “peacefully praying” but their presence is going to intimidate and guilt people who are already struggling.
      If it was all about praying, why wouldn’t they just have a prayer group at someone’s home?
      It’s to try and change people’s minds by intimidation.

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        hh

        I am sure you will agree that intimidation is an extreme word to use.The police can be intimidating but a silent prayer vigil is not.Uncomfortable for the women,yes,but the whole point is that abortion shouldn’t be seen as something that is “comfortable “.They pray out the front as sign to the world that something not good is happening in the clinic,I am sure you can figure that out.

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          Laws for Clouds

          Just remember, you’re making people using the other services the clinic offers ‘uncomfortable’ too. The services that might prevent abortion in the first place.

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            LaurenHC

            Thanks for adding this, Laws for Clouds. Last year I got an IUD inserted at the Marie Stopes clinic in Perth. There were no protesters or anything but I was absolutely terrified (I was 18, I can’t have hormones due to a medical condition so it was my only hope) and protesters would have made me even more agitated as I would hate to have seen the women in the waiting room upset or further distressed from the protesters.

            I wasn’t given any anaesthetic despite my obvious terror and youth, I guess a local anaesthetic is wasted on a terrified young woman or some shit and I was screaming in agony and fear for the whole agonising procedure. When I left the clinic I was shaken, pale and couldn’t walk properly. I was also still very distressed. If there had been a bloody prayer vigil I am 100% sure that in my state I would have lost all dignity and gone over and screamed at them for making my experience even worse- and I was just getting contraception!!

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          Kris2040

          If I thought intimidation was wrong, I would have used another word.

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          Lindsay

          You honestly think that any women finds having an abortion a “comfortable” experience?

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          rudyroo

          Please check the meaning of intimidation HH.
          It means to make timid, to bring about fear which indeed the prayer vigil can and does achieve. By the sheer numbers alone.
          I’d say that would be a little more than ‘uncomfortable’ for the women attending the clinic and by assuming that is all they feel then it is YOU who is trivialising the situation these women find themselves in.
          But, I’m sure you can figure that out.

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          Kaz

          HH do you HONESTLY think anyone who considers abortion looks at this as a ‘comfortable’ option? Might be time to come down of that judgy pedestal and try looking at this issue in a calm and rational manner. Jesus said: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Dont let your righteousness get in the way of a fair and rational discussion. There is no point being ‘too heavenly good’ that you are ‘no earthly use’. Jesus threw the Pharisees like that from the temple…

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        Anonymous

        Go up and ask them why they have it on site instead of a church next time you see them, and then post the reply for us all to read:) While you’re at it, find out what they actually say to the women going in.

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      Sarah

      Because bringing an unwanted, unloved child into this world is ALWAYS the best option, right? Because not being able to afford clothing, food and stable accommodation is better for the child than being aborted? Banning abortion will totally cure all of these things, why has no one thought of it before?! You’re deluded if you think this protest will be anything but intimidating and judgemental to women who truly have no other choice.

      You disgust me.

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        hh

        Sarah,come on!I can’t speak for the welfare systems in other countries but certainly in Australia there is a lot of financial support for
        women who want to support a child.And really that is one of the big issues here.Children are so often seen as disposable commodities.It is one of the reasons that women seek abortion.The child won’t fit into their plan of life,I can’t afford it etc….Society as a whole is becoming more selfish.

        And please reserve the “you disgust me “lines for people who are actually deserving of it,i.e. rapists ,pedophiles…..

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          rudyroo

          People who deserve it?
          Like people who force others to do things they don’t want to do?
          yes, totally.

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          Anon for this

          I’m sorry, a LOT of financial support???? When my partner and I separated for a brief period I was eligible for $528.00 a week from Centrelink (the maximum amount) & $80 a month in Child Support (what CSA deemed fair on my partners $60k a year teacher salary). When you take into account the cost of housing and basics, it is FAR from enough to raise a child on (thus I went back to work). Please don’t pretend that Centrelink for single parents is a lot of money or that you can raise a child on that amount of money.

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            anon too

            And if your child is over the age of seven, you’re instantly on Newstart – aka the dole – and sent off to get a job, never mind the kids at home fending for themselves.
            Yes, choosing to raise a child on Centrelink benefits alone is a one way trip up poverty street.

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          Nicki

          hh, do you know any single parents who are actually dependent on welfare? Every one of the single parents I know STRUGGLE financially. Every. Single. One.

          What are you and your friends doing to help them? Or is a potential child more important than a real family?

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            Kris2040

            That’d be me. If I hadn’t had my Mum able to take us in, we would have ended up in emergency accommodation. What with the embarrassment of riches the parenting payment is. It’s a safety net, not a lifestyle choice.

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          Lilybet

          SELFISH????? Okay…well maybe we will re-direct all struggling parents with kids your way and we will see how far you get. Lets see how selfless YOU are.

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          Nicky

          i think you should check with your local Centrelink before making such statements. The single parents I know who are on Centrelink payments (for various reasons,) do nothing but struggle from week to week! What a naive comment you made!

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      Erin

      Hh,
      So do you think that abortion shouldn’t be an option for women who have been raped, are in a domestic violent relationship or by their choice as a female in this country choose to have an abortion?
      As with most things that religious groups decide to “protest” against I am unclear as to why this is a religious issue?
      I read a fantastic article on twitter relating to a state in America trying to make abortion illegal and it told stories of women having to have back yard abortions. It was horrific and so many women died. Surely you don’t think that is a better alternative?
      We have one of the slowest rates of adoption in Australia that I don’t think women even think of it a a viable option.
      I don’t think these protestors are brave and I don’t think your comment is brave. I think it’s once again people judging others when empathy should be our feelings. I’m sick of people thinking its ok to be judgmental and critical of others and hide behind their religion.
      If these groups really want to prayer and are that against it – do it at home. I doubt any woman makes the choice to have an abortion easily and these protestors are just making it worse.
      I live on the central coast so unfortunately it doesn’t appear that I can drop of any goodies as I would. I would want to make these women know they have support and rejoice that we live in a country where women still have CHOICE and don’t have to die to make this choice as has been seen when abortion was illegal.

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      JosieY

      May I ask in all honesty how the protesters are supporting the women? I understand their prayers (I am a prayingt person myself) but how is this vigil helping in a way that private prayer would not?

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        Acanberramum

        JosieY, you are so right. While prayer wouldn’t be how I would show support, I can’t see how praying en masse outside the clinic is anything more than an attempt to intimidate, humiliate and shame women and those who work there. (And, as an aside, when I come across them, I always appreciate your contributions – you seem to have faith and compassion by the bucketful.)

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        JL

        u r so awesome JosieY…i was wondering the same thing!!
        Its clearly not about ‘praying’ like they say it is, cos u are so right, ‘praying’ at home does the exact same thing right? It doesnt matter where u are!! I think their presence is more to intimidate! If these people were real Christians like yourself they would be more concerned about the woman and children of the world that needs help and support. i think their time would be better suited volunteering in orphanages or with foster kids! Plus why arn’t they arrested for loitering?

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      missinsouciant

      This post is not only completely ludicrous it is also uninformed and unintelligent.
      And what utter rubbish that these protesters are trying to “help” the women entering the clinics to have a termination.
      Have any of you do-gooders ever asked any of these women if they feel your protest helps them in any way. Being told about adoption agencies is not helping a woman in their predicament. Just to proceed with the pregnancy alone could be a huge challenge to some women and none of the protesters know anything about why any of these women have chosen to have a termination. I mean really, how sanctimonious of them.
      And since when are the stakes involved with the rights of an approx 10 – 12 week EMBRYO (Yes that’s what it is called at up to 13 weeks gestation, NOT a baby) more important than those of an adult woman (or even worse, teenage girl).
      That woman may have other children already, she may be a single mother, she may be carrying a foetus with a severe abnormality (which isn’t very clever of an interventionist god to create in the first place).
      And I wonder how many of these conservative protesters advocate a single parent pension, or early interventions services to help families who aren’t coping, or have foster children, or care for child victims of domestic violence, or who simply volunteer their time to help overworked mums and/ or dads?
      These people should get a perfect life of there own. Only then will they be able to pass judgement on others, sickly masked as support, knowing there own lives are beyond the judgement of others.

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        Faybian

        Dont get me wrong, I agree with your comment, but it’s considered a foetus after 8 weeks of pregnancy.

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          missinsouciant

          Okay I stand corrected. I looked it up and it is 10 weeks. However the use of the term ‘baby’ by HH is purely to be emotive.

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    lani93

    This is so, so brilliant.
    My train goes directly past the woodville advisory centre. I’ve seen these protests for the last two years. They’re a bit pathetic really, at Woodville they’re about half a dozen people, never more than ten. people who seem to be doing more reading a eating of biscuits themselves than praying.
    I’m going to try and aim to get a treat into the staff there once a week.

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      Chooka

      Me to! Last year I went up to them and told them that what they were doing was disgusting and called the police to move them on. I might still do that but I will also send treats and flowers to the clinic.

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        lani93

        Could the police do anything?
        I’m surprised they’re allowded to take up that space in a car park the way they do.

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          Chooka

          I think they moved them on, when I spoke to them they had attended before. Apparently the council gave them a permit to be there so I may complain about that too.

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            lani93

            Maybe a community petition or something could be set up there, though if the law states that the council has to give them a permit then that’s a bust.

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    angie

    This is a great idea!

    I lived near the East Melbourne clinic for 18 months and the protesters were a strange, disturbing presence. I always wanted to ask them why they weren’t out actually helping children who were really in need, like being Child Protection Officers or even raising money for domestic violence victims, or working with Melbourne’s homeless community, rather than accosting people making hugely difficult life decisions (and also people walking past to get to the shops!). I would love to bake something for the staff there if I still lived there!!

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      Lindy

      Good on you! Such a good point! Where’s their help once the child is born!

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    PJ

    Such an awesome idea – I was involved in the decriminalisation of abortion in Vic only a couple of years ago and it was one of the proudest things I have ever done. The doctors and nurses that work in these clinics work under stressful circumstances to ensure women have access to first class medical attentention – and up until a couple of years ago they risked criminal charges. Pro Life campaigners make what already is a torturous decision more difficult and even dangerous. An abortion is a legitimate procedure. Some women are entering those clinics because they have to not because they want to. There baby is so sick it would not survive outside the womb, or there may be other difficult circumstances, you don’t know what a person is going through – the protestors should think about that

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    Shannon

    Just a thought…abortion is considered minor surgery and it was my understanding that you can’t eat beforehand…and I’m not sure how keen people would be to stick around afterward.

    Perhaps things that are easy to take home would be more appreciated?

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      Anon for this

      I agree.

      I’m thinking of the staff in the clinics who will have to dispose of the waste, cut up the cakes, find plates, find bins, clean up the crumbs….do they have time for this?

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        rudyroo

        I’m pretty sure the staff will appreciate the show of support and the reason for the food. The ‘mess’ it creates would be of little consequence I would think. Plus, the clients attending the clinic would be fairly independent and likely able to serve themselves. Depending on the clinic set up.

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      Lana

      The cake is as much for the staff that work there as anybody else. Imagine being harassed going to work every day – I think that deserves cake at the very least ;-)

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        Mia

        Or flowers……or boxed chocolates.

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          Shannon

          I think boxed chocolates would be a winner!

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          Kateateight

          If someone brought me cake, the last thing I would care about is mess!

          This whole post makes me want to eat a huge, messy chocolate cake, and then put my robot vacuum cleaner on!

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        hh

        Explain how a peaceful quite vigil is harassing anyone?

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          Rick Morton

          I explained this below in another comment. The vigil might be peaceful for the protestors, but it ain’t peaceful for the women who go to get an abortion. It’s traumatic. And the protestors KNOW this, which is why they do it. Any pretensions to doing it for support are a cheap distraction.

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            Rosie

            Rick – absolutely agree with you. I am hoping and assuming that the figures this group use re closure of clinics etc. are greatly exaggerated. Have they got nothing better to do with their lives?

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      Anon for this

      Anyone having the procedure has to stay for a minimum time afterwards – an hour or so – in a bit of ‘recovery’ and during that time the staff offer jelly beans/jelly babies etc to give the body a bit of a ‘sugar hit’ post procedure.

      So while yes, granted pretty sure people don’t want to ‘hang around’ there’s a period of time they will have to and some lollies etc wouldn’t go astray.

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      Nicki

      A clinic will provide the patients with a cuppa and a cake once tranquilisers wear off anyway. They don’t want their patients feeling woozy because of low blood sugar levels on top of the after affects of the drugs.