by PETER BOWDITCH
I recently spent a few weeks on crutches because of a broken ankle, and I had a vaccination against pneumonia today. These reminded me of my earliest memory of being vaccinated.
Shortly after my twelfth birthday I was rushed to hospital to have my appendix removed. Back in those days it wasn’t the simple keyhole job it is today so I had to spend a few days in the hospital to recuperate.
Another thing about the olden days was that there was no gender separation, and one of the other patients in the children’s ward at Hornsby Hospital was a girl about ten or eleven years old.
I can still remember what she looked like.
She had a round face with very pink cheeks. Her hair was red, and even though it was cut short you could see that it had a curl in it. I can only remember her face and hair and not what the rest of her looked like because the rest of her was enclosed in a steel box. The steel box was an iron lung, and it was doing her breathing for her because she had been infected with polio.

A screenshot from “The Sessions” a 2012 film based on the true story of Mark O’Brien, a poet who was paralyzed from the neck down as a result of polio.
She was quite cheerful, which must have been difficult. I don’t know what happened to her later and she may very well have been one of the lucky ones who through intensive rehabilitation was eventually able to survive outside the box, but at the time the general expectation was that once someone went into an iron lung they spent the rest of their life there.
Meanwhile my best friend in primary school was one of the lucky ones. He walked with a limp but he didn’t need the leg callipers that were on at least one child in every primary school class.
I still remember how we had to make allowances in playground games for the kids who weren’t quite as mobile as the rest of us. I also remember that an entire age cohort missed out on swimming lessons because of a fear that public swimming pools were places where polio could spread easily.
A couple of years before my appendix decided that it needed removing the vaccinators arrived at my school. All the kids who hadn’t shown any signs of contracting polio (and even those who had) lined up for the shots. A nurse painted our arms with iodine and another one injected us from a stainless steel syringe. Many children cried, both before and after the injection. Some might even have fainted afterwards.
Nobody objected. There were no exceptions, there were no conscientious objections. There was a universal feeling that this was something that had to be done to protect children from an incurable disease that came on suddenly and left death and disability behind.
Most people today have never seen a case of polio, and this includes doctors. That is why we have the luxury today of arguing about the value and safety of vaccines. Yes, there were people who objected to the polio vaccine when it was first introduced but they were treated with the ridicule they deserved, just as anti-vaccinators should be treated today.
Anti-vaccination zealouts will try to convince you that polio was never eradicated by vaccination. Instead it was renamed. Oh really? If that were true, where are the leg callipers and iron lungs? I’ve seen the world the anti-vaccination fanatics want our children to live in and I don’t want to go back there. All I need do is remember a little red-headed girl in hospital who could still smile at a boy who, unlike her, could run, breathe and play games. Like any child should be able to do.
Peter Bowditch writes for several skeptical and scientific publications and runs the web site at www.ratbags.com. In real life he is married with two daughters and pays the bills by being an IT consultant and TAFE teacher.








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Ah yes, Bowditch…..ex-convict, charged, convicted and incarcerated for aggravated assault. Currently he is in front of the courts defendinding an AVO for uttering threats of death, sexual assault and mutilation. Bowditch has an agenda of violence and intimidation directed at those he doesn’t agree. He views his opinions as empirical. Those who disagree with this ultra-conservative whacko will inevitably become his quarry.
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I laugh at people who think immunisation will never be compulsory in this country. If immunisation rates drop enough and disease outbreaks become really bad, they will have to.
It already happens in other countries – look at this article about an anti-polio and measles drive in Kenya – http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000070200&story_title=Kenya-Church-hides-children-in-bush-to-avoid-immunisation
While immunisation rates and rates of infection are relatively low, the anti-vaxxers are probably safe, but compulsory jabs can and do happen. Our good sanitation and strong immune systems will not be enough if too many people stop immunising. In fact, we are in crowded areas like shopping centres, office buildings, schools and daycares so often that if we didn’t all mostly get immunised, we’d be screwed.
It’s only a matter of time, anti-vaxxers, before we go so far backward that disease outbreaks are so bad, they will have to start enforcing mandatory immunisation. Don’t think it won’t happen, it will. And it will be for the greater good whether you like it or not.
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My uncle had a very minor polio infection. He still lost one lung, and was that close to spending the rest of his life in an iron lung.
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Anon, you are mixing up two very different issues. Abortion can’t be illegal because it would just drive the practice underground and cost lives – and it has other attached issues as well.
Vaccines must be compulsory, and there is no reason to refuse them point blank. The only time a vaccine should not be administered is when the recipient is ill. A key factor in immunisation is herd immunity, and it works. It’s why – for example – that the North Coast of New South Wales has a higher rate of Pertussis (Whooping Cough). The vaccination rates are down in that region, and the incidence of Pertussis is up. Basic maths.
I am of the opinion that I wouldn’t want any children playing with any who haven’t been vaccinated.
To the anonymous poster who talked about parental choice – sorry, but refusing the vaccinate their children is flat out child neglect. There’s no way it can be excused. No way. To object is to deny the reality this article portrays. Parents who think they are experts because they read a few abstracts that were hand picked by sceptics who aren’t qualified to speak on the subject are fooling themselves, and hurting their kids in the process. Vaccines are safe when used correctly and there is no excuse not to get it done. Don’t look at the individual ingredients. That’s a furphy and if you remember your basic high school chemistry, you will know that there is a big difference between a basic element and a compound. Chlorine for instance is poison by itself. But put it into a compund and it’s safe to consume. It’s called salt. Vaccines work the same way. Individual ingredients may have issues, but put them all together in the chemical compound and they are safe.
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I agree. There is no place for being “pro-choice” when it comes to the health and safety of children and the rest of the community.
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Vaccines will never be compulsory. I know you would like it that way but it will never be. Nobody is injecting anything into my or my children’s body without our permission.
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I had never heard of AVN or heard the term anti- vaxxer when I decided not to finish my second daughters vaccination schedule.
I made that decision based on our own experience and independent of input from anyone else.
It’s a bit offensive to assume that everyone who refuses vaccination has been swayed by these radicals.
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You know what makes me laugh?
The same people that are advocating forced vaccination are the same ones that support choice in abortion.
Surely if you are demanding the forced protection of children through vaccination you must also support abortion being illegal for the same reason.
You argue strenuously that your children are unprotected because others are unvaccinated as passionately as you argue for the right to abort.
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So EVERYONE who advocates forced vaccination are the same ones that support choice in abortion. Huh!!!!!????? Are you for real Anon??? This is the most absurd statement I have ever heard. Do you have any stats or publications to reference in backing up this argument???? lol!!!
BTW I am not an advocate for forced vaccination but I am a pro-choice advocate when it comes to abortion, go figure.
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That’s an interesting comment to make Anon, given there is no way to prove it. Accordingly, we have to treat it as inaccurate. Your comment is a strawman, the abortion and vaccination issues are mutually exclusive.
I must admit though, I don’t advocate mandatory vaccination because there are legitimate medical reasons not to vaccinate. I live in hope that eventually all parents will get smart and do the right thing for their children and the community.
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Anon that was exactly my point. Lilah and the other anon misread what I said, understandably because of the way I wrote it. I definitely was not implying that all pro-vaxxers are pro-lifers, not that I know of anyway.
What I meant was that you can’t tell people what to do with their own bodies or their children’s bodies. Unless you are from the Pro-life movement regarding abortion in which case you do think you can tell people what to do with their bodies!
But you are absolutely right Anon, you either are or aren’t for autonomy over your own body. It’s the same thing.
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I disagree that the issue is about being told what to do with our bodies. Abortion is a decision that affects nobody (medically) but the mother and child. Immunisation affects the community. Additionally, this discussion is (mostly) about immunising children so it’s not our bodies we are discussing anyway. As adults we can make decisions about our health and we are ultimately responsible for that. With regards childhood immunisation we are making decisions that affect someone else, their body, their health, their life. We do not own our children, we as adults have the ultimate responsibility to make the right choices for our children. Additionally, if we choose not to vaccinate and we take those children into areas where there are children to young or to ill to be vaccinated, we are ultimately making decisions that affects the health and wellbeing of other peoples children. So, this issue cannot be compared to abortion, it’s like comparing apples to jumbo jets.
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I am pro-choice, though I am not sure I’d ever be able to abort myself. But other people’s decisions not to go through with a pregnancy do not affect me in any way.
Non immunisation of children is a community health risk and an unneccessary health risk for individual children who can’t make decisions for themselves. When it comes to the health and safety of children, “pro-choice” should not factor in, only the best interests of the child. And UNLESS there is a medical reason for exemption, mandatory immunisation is in the best interests of the child.
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To the MM team. I know you are passionate about this issue, hence the suspected editing of posts based on stance. The problem with continuing to have this debate is that 1. it seems to bring out the worst in people who get very emotional about it 2. it simply makes anti-vaxxers more determined, not because they are adamant about not vaccinating but because you pro-vaxxers are telling them how to parent! They are fighting more to protect their right to choose than they are about not to immunise. And they are right to do so.
It is crossing the line and getting dangerous, given we live in a democracy.
If you do think this is healthy debate then lets change the topic to discuss law change around preventing parents from giving their kids sugar, fat, salt and junk food, since the obesity and diabetes epidemic is costing us billions, more than measles and whooping cough and is also cutting lives short. How would all of you feel about being told what to feed your children or put into their body? Would you mind if I walked into your kitchen and started chucking stuff out of your pantry, based on what I didn’t want your children to eat?
You simply can’t tell people what to do with their bodies or the bodies of their children (unless you’re Pro-Life and so you’ll unfortunately keep trying). Let’s move on and hope for lots more scientific evidence to help us make the most informed decisions we can.
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Hi anonymous, your comment is also a strawman. There is no reason why this issue should not be discussed, your suggestion is a diversionary tactic because you do not want to discuss the issue. The issue of childhood obesity and the ensuing health related issues is one that we should dicussion, but it is not something we should discuss *instead* of vaccination, it’s one we should discuss *as well as* vaccination.
Sometimes people need to be told how to parent, we do it all the time. In fact, we have whole organisations setup to ensure that parents do the right thing. Unfortunately not all parents make good decisions with regards their children, be it avoiding immunisation based on lies spread on the internet, or feeding their children too much sugar. Both need to be addressed, and both are being address. Your wrong to suggest that the government isn’t working on educating families on good nutritional choices, as they are.
I personally don’t know any children who’ve died of over eating, but I do know 2 babies (both under 7 weeks) who have died of whooping cough, I think that in terms of degrees, the immunisation issue is one closer to my heart as it has more victims.
I can’t tell other people what to do regarding their lifestyle choices but the government can and does every day. You pay rates, you pay taxes, you have to educate your children, that you need to fence your pool, that your children need to be in car seats in cars, that you need to feed them (and so on). I don’t always agree but I do concede that there are people out there that make very poor decisions and unfortunately the government has to legislate against their stupidity.
The issue with immunisation is that people refuse to accept the science, and make their decisions based on unqualified opinion presented as fact that they read on the internet. I do agree though, that I’d like to see the science continue to improve the vaccinations and make them safer, and more effective (longer lasting etc). There is always room for improvement.
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I can see your point that this discussion will make anti-vaxxers more determined. The same thing happens in pro-life and pro-choice debates. I also see that people get emotional, but to be honest, I feel emotion should not play a part in a discussion about immunization. This should be a rational and logical decision to be made, based on information provided by health care professionals and researchers in the field of immunity and vaccines. That is, obviously, easier said than done.
On another note, you urge people to make informed decisions based on scientific evidence. Of course people should do this, but the fact is that much of the literature is not freely accessible to the public and is often in such a jargon-laden language that even scientists find it difficult to make sense of these publications. I am talking about peer-reviewed literature here, as these are the type of articles based on years of research and development. Even people who are highly educated may decide to not have their children immunized, and this is a growing trend.
Much of the ant-vaccination propaganda has in the past been based on a 1998 paper written by Dr. Andrew Wakefield. He claimed that there was a link between the MMR vaccine and autism. The journal in which the paper was published has now retracted that paper as it was untrue. Wakefield was debarred from medicine, following the discovery that he was bribed to skew his results. Furthermore, the “research” showed links to only mild autism yet the anti-vaxxers claimed a link to autism all over the spectrum.
Sadly, many will still base their decision on this debunked paper. For those papers that show true findings and research, there will be countless people who now don’t trust them due to the Wakefield scandal. I think the growing trend of organic, hipster, vegan lifestyles may influence decisions to be made in the future too.
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I am all for choice and being able to make decisions about what is best for your own child but a number of people who choose not to vaccinate do so based on anecdotal evidence, misinformation and downright lies told by the anti-vaccination movement. These people need to be held accountable for their dangerous actions.
As the vaccination numbers drop, the government will look at all the evidence and they will probably decide to make vaccination compulsary in response. The anti-vaccination movement will bring about exactly what they don’t want to happen.
Choice is fine but make it an informed choice not one based on fear and lies.
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There is a lot of emotion in this debate – and it is easy to see why, when lives are at risk.
I am pro-vaccination but I am uncomfortable with the amount of hate in this debate. I believe that people are coloured by their own experiences. I can understand people being sceptical about vaccinations, and sceptical about blindly following science. Particularly if they have encountered a person who has had an adverse reaction in response to a vaccination. I can also understand a person being passionate about vaccination if they have encountered someone with a preventable disease.
Yes, I acknowledge that there are people who take it to the extreme. But I can see propaganda and ‘fact fudging’ on both sides. No one fully understands the human body 100%, not even the smartest scientists. So I believe, as a parent, the best you can do is inform yourself as best you can with peer reviewed information and make a decision. There was a beautiful article about this some time ago on the Mamamia site, by an American (Canadian?) author.
No personal disrespect to Peter (I love that you have shared your personal experience) but I would like to see some vaccination information that actually explains the science (as it currently stands) and which also acknowledges that it is a difficult decision for parents, to inject their beautiful healthy baby with something they don’t really understand. I find that when I read anything biased, I feel compelled to defend the other side.
If the goal is to ensure that more people get the message – then present some unbiased information. Mamamia has the opportunity to do this, given its large readership.
I suspect there is only a small percentage of people who will agree with me. Please don’t reply with anything hateful or about how “there are no two sides there is only science”. There are two sides otherwise we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
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Here is a link to an article puplished by MM a little while ago. http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/vaccination-myths-busted-by-science-cheat-sheet-on-immunisation/
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There are two sides: the science and the woo.
Woo isn’t wrong but it’s illogical, fearful, confused and places all of us at additional risk of vaccine preventable diseases.
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Hi Kasey, i’d be interested in your links to the facts fudging on the pro immunisation side. Do you have details?
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I would like to know how much companies such as Blackmores make out of vitamins etc. I’m sure they are not in business just to keep people healthy. no matter what company, profit is important. A months supply of krill oil capsules is more expensive than most vaccines
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One European homeopathy company earned over $380 million in 2004 (according to wikipedia). We can probably assume sales have increased in the last eight years. One of their biggest selling products contains 100% sugar (lactose and sucrose) – nothing else – in tiny little pills about the size of “hundreds and thousands”. It has an RRP of around $18 in Australia for 6x1g doses. That’s some damned expensive confectionery.
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Massive measles outbreak in Sydney’s south west. What does that tell you!
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“Massive measles outbreak in Sydney’s south west. What does that tell you!”
Why, it tells me that there are not enough vaccinated people to maintain the herd immunity. Get your vaccines. Simple.
And now, cue the flying monkeys from the antivax crowd to abuse the hell out of me and loudly declaim that it means the vaccine “doesn’t work”.
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From what I understand at one stage 40 out of 40 hospitalised children (due to measles) were unvaccinated. Seems to be making a very clear statement if it’s true.
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Sorry haven’t worked my way through the comments, but seeing all the tiny children in that iron lung photo is just heart breaking.
I have never hesitated to vaccinate my little ones, and I am also so grateful for the advances of modern medicine.
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For anyone interested in REALLY understanding what polio does to people, this website is fantastic: there are some really nerve hitting stories on it.
http://www.post-polionetwork.org.au/stories/puddles.html
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Most Mamamia readers are pro vaccination (as am I). But how many readers know that organic farmers don’t believe in vaccinating their animals against preventable diseases, because vaccinations are “not natural”? Many peple are not prepared to trust science in agriculture but are prepared to trust when it comes to human medicine. I think there is an interesting disconnect around science in some peoples minds…
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I’m not sure your comments are actually accurate. Can you supply some links that show that organic farmers don’t vaccinate so we can take a look? Personally, I think organic is a bit of a scam anyway.
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This is NSW DPI’s advice to farmers on vaccines and medications in organic agriculture:
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0013/213601/Use-of-vaccinations-in-organic-farming.pdf
It states: “Organic standards classify the use of vaccines as ‘restricted’. This means that their routine use is discouraged”
Use of medications is prohibited too, except in emergency. An animal which hasbeen treted with a medication (such as an antibiotic or worm treatment) can no longer be sold as organic.
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Isn’t that simply so they can accurately use the label of organic though? As in if you feed a chicken or a pig antibiotics or vaccinate them they are not purely organic and so can’t be advertised as such? I don’t think its because they are worried the animals will get polio or other childhood diseases, many or=f which may not be transferable to and from animals anyway.
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In this country no animal can be sold/ taken to abbatoirs (?) without being ‘immunised’ against certain things.
You have paperwork that you need to provide with each animals serial numbers and stats before you can make a sale.
So there would be certain things the farmers would legally have to give the stock otherwise they would not be legal to sell in AUS.
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My Dad came home from school one Friday when he was in primary school – this was 1950′s New Zealand.
One of the kids on the bus, didn’t make it back to school on the Monday….he spent the rest of his life in an iron lung
That is why my parents had me and my brother and sister vaccinated.
He remembers the awful time of the polio outbreaks of the 1950′s , we were lucky to never experience it in our childhood
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This is a great pro-vaccination video feat. Penn & Teller and uses bowling to demonstrate the pros of vaccination- great imagery!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Warning: coarse language!
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My neighbours son is not vaccinated, my son is. My Neighbours son contracted chicken pox recently and my son was playing with him during the contagious period before he was showing any symptoms and my son never caught it. This poor child was so sick and to think it could
have been prevented. Need I say more.
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It worries me that people are risking not only their children’s lives but also the lives of those who cannot – for medical reasons – be vaccinated. Herd immunity is becoming increasingly weaker in many areas of the US (possibly also in other nations, but I’ve only read peer reviewed literature that mentions the US – Specifically well-educated areas!!!), which means that the incidence of many diseases which are vaccinable is also increasing!! I cannot imagine the ire people who can’t be vaccinated must feel when people who have the choice to not only help them selves but others don’t do it. These days, tracing patient zero is becoming easier, will there be a future where non-vaccinators will be held accountable for infections or deaths?
On another note, malaria infects and kills millions of people every year – specifically children in Africa. Currently there is a promising candidate for a vaccine undergoing clinical trials. I am so excited that this vaccine is in our future, after more than 20 years of research and development. This vaccine has the capacity to save countless lives, and from what I’ve read, if an infection still occurs, the parasitemia sets on later than non-immunized people and can have less of an effect on them. I can’t imagine that any person who has seen the effects of malaria will opt out of having the vaccine.
Don’t forget, smallpox was eradicated by a world wide vaccination program. I don’t think anyone could choose not to be vaccinated, and look how well that turned out!
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DO the anti-vaxxers really want us to live in a world full of disease? Or are most of them normal parents, like us, who do not trust the huge, profit driven pharmaceutical companies with the health of their children?
In all honesty, I can see where they’re coming from. I’m in my 50s. I’ve seen the effects of polio and the effects of thalidomide. And quit smoking medication that bought on suicidal thoughts. I’ve lived long enough to know not to put blind faith in doctors or pharmaceutical companies.
The constant attacking of those who don’t follow your beliefs to the letter is so incredibly immature and off-putting.
Personally, I believe many parents who don’t vaccinate do so for cultural reasons or through genuine fear. Beating them up won’t change anything.
And yes, mine were vaccinated. I wouldn’t be do quick to trust though, now that I’m older.
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I don’t understand this – the “huge profit driven pharma” tenet. Why shouldn’t a pharmaceutical company be entitled to make profit? They invest millions into R&D to get these life-saving drugs and vaccines to market, IF another company doesn’t beat them to the punch. If they didn’t make profit, they wouldn’t have investors, if they didn’t have investors, they wouldn’t have money for research, if they don’t have money for research, no new drugs get developed. If no new drugs get developed, what do you tell the people who need drugs to live? Sorry, we had to stop R&D because we were forced to be not for profit and lost our investors. And don’t think for one minute that the government can independently develop and test vaccines, unless every man woman and child wants to pay 100% tax rate, it’s just out-and-out unachievable… clinical trials cost millions. Our PBS would be one drug big if we didn’t have pharma companies. No thanks.
And besides all this, we are not lining up at drug companies to get our shots, we are lining up at our nurses and doctors, who are no way near in the pockets of “big pharma” as you would like to think. Just ask a drug rep what a tough crowd GPs are… hardly the pharmashills that anti-vaxxers would have you believe.
I have no problem with people not being vaccinated for cultural or medical reasons. But choosing not to vaccinate because of some crap they read on the internet? I do have a problem with that. Parents are being misled by the anti-vaccination movement. Children WILL suffer. It’s not beating people up about their choices, it’s protecting kids from vaccines preventable diseases. Hardly a sinister motivation.
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What’s the difference between objecting on cultural grounds or objecting because you don’t trust big pharma? Neither stance is based on science. Why is culture an acceptable excuse?
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What culture actually forbids immunisation? I would suggest that neither, pretend cultural issues or conspiracy is an acceptable reason for failing to immunise. There are medical reasons not to immunise, anything else is simply excuses to support unvalidated opinion.
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Gah, I did reply, but it seems to have been swallowed by Mamamia’s filters. I don’t know why though?
Anyways, the crux of my reply was that religion/culture is (to me) somewhat sacred and who am I to argue with that? I wouldn’t ask someone to have a transfusion if it goes against their religious or cultural belief, so I wouldn’t ask someone to vaccinate.
But “mistrust of pharma” is a manufactured belief, propagated by the antivax movement. They don’t have any valid arguments why not to vaccinate, so they use slander of the pharmaceutical and medical industries to convince people not to vaccinate.
A bit fuzzy and wishy-washy, but there you go. I hope this doesn’t get posted twice now???? Sorry if it has.
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The question is still outstanding .. what culture doesn’t allow immunisation? Surely with all these people claiming it, someone can tell us?
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I have heard that some stricter adherents of Islam don’t immunise, but I’ve immunized a lot of middle eastern/African Muslim refugees. None of them have questioned it.
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There’s some info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_and_religion
But yes, in true terms, the number of people who can legitimately object on cultural/religious grounds is very small.
The number who are objecting because of the rubbish they read on the internet is another story though. I don’t consider that to be objection on religious or cultural reasons, I consider that fear-based decision-making, perpetuated through the anti-vaccination movement. Hopefully, through continued education, and articles such as this, we can get that number down.
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So according to Wikipedia it’s not a religious issue, it’s a control issue.
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No Anonymous, they are not just normal parents, like us, who do not trust the huge, profit driven pharmaceutical companies with the health of their children. They are parents who have convinced themselves that there is some big pharma conspiracy and they ignore the science and the facts in order to support their opinion. There has not been one single shred of evidence that would indicate any big conspiracy by big pharma, and yet here you are, quoting it yourself.
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I don’t think anti-vaxxers are normal parents. I had a read of many anti-vax sites when trying to work out what it would mean to not vaccinate my daughter (immune system – immunologists were discussing whether to vax or not – I thought I’d google it to see if I could learn something).
A normal parent will question the experts and find satisfactory answers and if the answers are vague (in our case they are really vague because my daughter’s issue is so extraordinarily rare) then they won’t try to fill the knowledge gap with pseudo-information from conspiracy theorists.
Because that was what I found on anti-vax sites. Fear mongering, conspiracy theories, alt-med pseudo science, obfuscatory language and nothing that was remotely convincing.
Reading anti-vax sites tipped me from being on the fence about alt-med (and an occasional user of it) to being a full fledged ranty skeptic. I admit my feelings are overly strong about all this because the people that choose not to vaccinate also put my daughter at risk. They deny it but they don’t get to chose the reality of the situation and science is not backing them up.
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“DO the anti-vaxxers really want us to live in a world full of disease? Or are most of them normal parents, like us, who do not trust the huge, profit driven pharmaceutical companies with the health of their children?”
I know what you mean. I don’t let my kids wear seat belts – for exactly the same reason. The companies that make seat belts are in it for the profit. If I ever get pulled over by the cops, I’m going to try the “cultural reasons” defence. Thanks.
Oh and, joking aside, I think there’s a subtle difference between anti-vaxxers and parents who don’t vaccinate. Some of the latter group are just victims of the misinformation perpetrated by the former. That’s why it’s important to shut the former group up.
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Can anyone legally-minded help explain the Italian MMR case to me? Valentino Bocca’s parents were awarded damages on the basis that his MMR vaccination caused autism. I understood all scientific work around this had discredited the autism claims. What’s the go?
Am pro-vax btw. Believe it should be mandatory.
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It was a civil case, so the burden of proof is much lower than a criminal case.
Criminals are convicted if the jury believes “beyond REASONABLE doubt”
In Civil cases the jury only has to find responsibility “beyond POSSIBLE doubt”, which isn’t proof per see’
It also doesn’t mean that the vaccination definitively caused autism.
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The court is not a medical or scientific organisation. They arbitrate on conflicting evidence. I don’t know that case but there was a similar case in the US where it was found that the immunisation affected an already pre-existing condition. Courts tend to err on the side of the claimant in these issues given the damage. Neither the italian court nor the American court proved that immunisation caused autism. The child in the US would have been damaged regardless, the immunisation simply hurried up the process.
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I have been reading a lot about the GAPS diet, and the Dr who developed it seems to think a lot of protection is given during birth and the journey down the birth canal. It made me wonder if the rise in autism could maybe be related to the increase in C sections.
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Id love to know what protection being born vaginally provides, other than squeezing out some of the fluid in a baby’s lungs? Oh, it can colonize the baby with thrush or group b strep. Don’t know if I’d consider that a benefit though.
The rise in autism would not correlate with the rise in C sections.
I’d love to know where this doctor got his/her “facts” from, it even sounds nonsensical.
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Are you seriously trying to link c-sections with autism?
Waaay to alienate another section of the community. So, I should have insisted on a natural birth despite the fact that my child was dying, all to make sure he didn’t get autism? I suppose a dead baby can’t be autistic – so by your logic better a dead baby than a c-sectioned autistic one?
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I wasn’t saying anything negative about c sections. My youngest child wouldn’t be here if I had not had one. I would never judge anyone. I was wondering if there were any stats on this topic.
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Well it’s been said already, but here are a few facts anyway. C sections do not increase the risk of autism. Firstly, studies in twins ave determined that autism is genetic 90 per cent of the time. The rest is unknown. Most of the research theorizes that unknown environmental factors contribute to the increased risk of developing autism. But we don’t have anything concrete yet. A c section is often done for medical reasons, and some research has shown a marginal increase in children that develop autism, but it is most likely that the problems that caused the c section in the first place ar to blame. Feotal distress, lack of fetal growth and oxygen deprivation are likely reasons for c sections and all are linked to autism, although the causal relationship is not yet clear in the research.
This type of reasoning plays into the hands of fundamentalist free birthers and anti vaxxers, and to be honest, anyone founding or espousing a new ‘diet’ is cause for suspicion.
There are many wonderful reasons to choose a natural birth, and plenty of valid reasons for a c section. Autism is neither.
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I find it ironic that I have to have my dogs vaccinated before they can go to boarding kennels, yet any non-vaccinated child can go to school.
Everyone knows how fast nasties like headlice and gastro goes through school communities, why do some parents think that it’s O.K. to put everyone else at risk?
I guess if you decide not to vaccinate and your child suffers (and possibly dies) from a preventable disease, then you only have yourself to blame. What parent wants to put themselves in that position, not I, that’s for sure!
P.S. MMR does not cause autism, repeat, the MMR vaccine does NOT cause autism. The findings were faked and dismissed as nonsense in the end.
P.S.S. Autism is not a mental illness as mentioned by a previous poster, it’s a neurological condition. You can’t ‘cure’ autism, just manage the symptoms.
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My mother contracted polio as a child. Back then, she suffered terrible pain througout her childhood, wore leg braces and was hospitalised for lengthy periods. The worst of it was over by the time I came along but I grew up watching her limp, completely unable to walk fast or run. That alone was bad enough.
Right now she’s suffering from post-polio syndrome as all the bones start to fuse in her ankle. She’s mid 60s and has always taken good care of herself, has walked daily (until recently) and has a healthy BMI. However, despite that, she limps badly, can’t negotiate steps, and struggles to stand for more than a few minutes at a time. In short, she walks like a 90 year old. It terrifies me how quickly my mother is deteriorating.
I do not undertand how people can refuse to vaccinate against such horrific diseases.
If only anti-vaxxers could walk a mile in my mother’s shoes…
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Hmm, I recall they recently changed the flu vac from ‘safe for all’ to now ‘unsafe for young children’.
Also there was this report in CBS not so long ago
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20049118-10391695.html
Do your homework, I guess, then decide. As she says in the report, we are given many more vaccines these days……
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It was the Fluvax vaccine which caused febrile convulsions in some children in 2010 and it is now not registered for use for children under 5 years of age. However, Vaxigrip and Fluarix flu vaccine are safe for children aged 6 months to 10 years old. My daughter had the Fluvax vaccine before we went overseas before it was de-registered when she was 10 months old. My daughter was prone to febrile convulsions as an infant (she had 2 convulsions before she was 9 months old) but showed no adverse reaction to the Fluvax vaccine. But in saying that the right thing was done, it appeared that the vaccine was unsafe for children so it was de-registered.
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It was a specific flu vax and it is now unavailable to children My 3yo is about to get a flu vax (a different one). She is immuno-suppressed so needs to get it.
That said – a vaccination specialist and paediatric immunologist did research this and decide that there was a link to the vaccination and did get it banned for children. So where’s the conspiracy theory there? Why listen to the specialist that got it ‘right’ according to anti-vaxxers here but not listen to this specialist when he is recommending vaccinations in other cases.
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“But in saying that the right thing was done, it appeared that the vaccine was unsafe for children so it was de-registered.”
But that can’t be. The AVN and their ilk tell us that vaccination is all about damaging children for profit – so why would they pull the vaccines that do that most-effectively. I’m confused.
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This has crossed my mind as well. I won’t get my kids the flu shots because they aren’t recommended for kids their ages. Once they are on the vaccine schedule like measles or whooping cough I’ll get them vaccinated for it. But I think there is a big difference between a flu shot and diseases like polio.
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But there is a similarity Mum of 2 cheeky monkeys, and that is that they can and do die of the flu.
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Hi Lil. Like so many who support non vaccination, you supply 1/4 of the facts and a lot of assumption to support your statement. A single vaccination was the issue, and it was (this is my opinion) released too early to address the risks of death due to a particularly nasty flu that was going to hit Australia. It did cause convulsions in children and there is one instance where a child may have died as a result and a single beautiful girl in WA who now has permanent injury due to the convulsions. It was right to stop immunising small children as the risk was too high. There were lessons learnt from that, as there should have been. But we also have to consider that permanent injury and even deaths due to flu far exceeds these 2 instances in this country and while they are horrible outcomes, it does not justify using them as excuses not to vaccinate, it just tells us that we have to do more regarding ensuring that immunisations are safe. This site is a .au site, so I wonder why you feel the need to rely on American sites to justify your stand ? Further investigation into the write of the article shows that she has an anti-vaccination agenda, so I do agree that we should research, but unlike you I don’t think we should stop the research when we find something that agrees with our opinion.
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Hi Lil. Like so many who support non vaccination, you supply 1/4 of the facts and a lot of assumption to support your statement. A single vaccination was the issue, and it was (this is my opinion) released too early to address the risks of death due to a particularly nasty flu that was going to hit Australia. It did cause convulsions in children and there is one instance where a child may have died as a result and a single beautiful girl in WA who now has permanent injury due to the convulsions. It was right to stop immunising small children as the risk was too high. There were lessons learnt from that, as there should have been. But we also have to consider that permanent injury and even deaths due to flu far exceeds these 2 instances in this country and while they are horrible outcomes, it does not justify using them as excuses not to vaccinate, it just tells us that we have to do more regarding ensuring that immunisations are safe. This site is a .au site, so I wonder why you feel the need to rely on American sites to justify your stand ? Further investigation into the write of the article shows that she has an anti-vaccination agenda, so I do agree that we should research, but unlike you I don’t think we should stop the research when we find something that agrees with our opinion.
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Vaccination shouldn’t be a discussion about ‘beliefs’. It should be one about ‘facts’.
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Exactly! Great post.
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A few weeks ago it was World Day for the Eradication of Polio or something, and World Vision posted on their facebook about providing parents the opportunity to have their kids vaccinated. The anti-vaxxers attacked and said how it was irresponsible and wrong of an organisation to provide OPTIONAL (no one would ever force them to get it done) vaccination for people in communities where polio still kills and disables people all the time. That made me angry!
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All this talk of vaccination has reminded me I’m due for my Hep, Tetanus and yellow fever boosters. Thanks Peter!!!
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I truly don’t understand how parents chose to NOT vaccinate! Come on! Its life saving vaccinations! As soon as my future babies are born I plan to get him/her vaccinated for everything!!
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Have a look at ‘Dana McCaffrey – Whooping Cough Awareness’ page or facebook (or just google it).
Dana was a newborn baby that died in our local area from whooping cough. Dana’s parents vaccinated all of their other kids and thanks to the large number of parents in the Northern Rivers region that don’t vaccinate their kids Dana contracted this deadly virus and sadly passed away.
Dana’s death was preventable – her parents did everything right, sadly other parents didn’t and this is the result.
For gods sake why would you risk it?
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As a mother who chooses to vaccinate her children I feel I should correct your inaccuracy.
The whooping cough vaccine WILL NOT prevent you from catching and spreading the virus to anyone else, infants or those with compromised immune systems. The vaccine WILL ONLY in most cases reduce the severity which will also fool the person infected into thinking they have a simple cold, which makes them more of a risk to others as they do not realise they may be contagious and go about their business infecting others.
The WC vaccine is a wonderful thing but don’t kid yourself and play the blame game, children who catch WC could have been infected by their own nearest and dearest who have been vaccinated.
There are also MULTIPLE strains of whooping cough that are NOT vaccinated against.
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This is correct. My two eldest children had WC a few weeks ago. As they were vaccinated their symptoms were quite mild and the first two GPs that we went to ruled out Whooping Cough. They both had a swab done and it came back positive.
What annoys me is that all this anti-vax stuff clouds the issue so instead of talking about the facts and how the current vaccinations can be improved we are still in 2012 discussing MMR and autism!
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Yes. My friend had her children vaccinated for whooping cough and then both her children caught whooping cough so she was telling me the vaccine didn’t work. Nobody had told her that the vaccine probably reduced the severity of the illness. I think people should be told this or word gets around that the vaccine doesn’t work at all and people will stop getting it.
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I need to correct you here Hmmmmm… your statement is not accurate. In *most* instances the whooping cough will prevent you from catching and spreading the virus. The issues with whooping cough is that the immunity wanes and many people do not bother to re-immunise.
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As a child who had a severe allergic reaction to the MMR vaccine (resulting in brain damage, right hand side paralysis etc etc the list goes on), I am probably one of those best-placed to argue against vaccinating….HOWEVER, if you have ever seen a baby with whooping cough, for example, you know that to no vaccinate is in no-one’s best interests. I had both of my children vaccinated (with the hospital and paed on red alert in case of reaction) and both were fine. There was huge concern and anxiety around this decision but if I made the decision not to vaccinate I would only contribute to the progression of diseases such as polio, rubella, whooping cough etc. We have a responsibility to stop these diseases even existing in our first world country.
Just on a side issue, has anyone else heard that the government is not enforcing vaccination for travellers entering Australia – ie they could be carrying polio, Hep C etc etc which will only encourage the spread – esp among the non-vaccinated children here…..
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Good for you, Kails. That was very brave of you – I’m amazed by your ability to be so reasonable.
I have a friend who experienced an adverse event following childhood vaccination and she is adamantly pro-vaccination too. In part because she understands the risks of vaccination are minuscule (though very real) compared to the risk inherent in not vaccinating, but also because she understands first-hand that those who cannot be vaccinated rely on those who can to protect them.
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Kails that’s incredible of you – there should be more like you in the world xx
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It’s hard to choose to vaccinate when there are mitigating circumstances. The decision is not helped by the misinformation found on the internet.
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This is what I hate about this argument for and against vaccinating. It seems that people assume that the worst that can happen is a red bump and a bit of a fever. My GP refused to even discuss anything worse than that happening with me.
I don’t go near sites like the AVN because I think she’s a nutter but one read through the USA’s vaccination injury compensation program was enough to scare the bejesus out of me (although I’ve still vaccinated my kids but wouldn’t if they showed delayed development or ‘floppiness’). I’m impressed that you can be so balanced in this debate Kails despite your experience.
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Hi, Just a quick point about the US vaccination injury compensation program and their reporting system (VAERS). Compensation is given to anyone who can show a correlation between a vaccination and a reaction, e.g. if you have a vaccination on a Monday and a fit on Wednesday they will compensate you. It does not mean that the vaccine caused the reaction just that it is possible. The reporting system VAERS is designed to pick up reactions in the general public but has been corrupted because anyone can add a reaction (which is necessary for it to work). A recent study examined 32 deaths reported as a result of the HPV vaccine, it followed all of them up and none could reasonably be blamed on the vaccine, again e.g. one death was a drug overdose and the time of reaction (not death just the beginning of the reaction) range from 2 days to 9 months.
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Actually Dave, I’m not going to say you’re wrong as I may be missing your point. But the Vaccine Injury Table clearly outlines the time period in which the first symptoms of a reaction need to appear. Some of these are as short as 0-4 hours. Your comment also suggests that claims are paid willy-nilly which they’re not – only 1/3 of claims are paid. I would link the articles to you which back me up but these tend to get caught in the MM spam folder. It’s incredibly easy to google and find this information though.
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I thought one of Dave’s main points was that correlation does not equal causation and that this scheme is set up to cover those adverse events that may be correlated with vaccines. Possibly it satisfies the litigious spirit in so many americans.
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Hi B, Sorry my comment might have got confusing. The “Vaccine Court” has to show a correlation within a specific timeframe as you described but as Faybian states this shows correlation not causation. On the other VAERS which is purely a reporting system (not linked to the “Vaccine Court”) allows anyone to write anything as a reaction and it is from VAERS that the HPV/32 death example was given
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Hi, Just a quick point about the US vaccination injury compensation program and their reporting system (VAERS). Compensation is given to anyone who can show a correlation between a vaccination and a reaction, e.g. if you have a vaccination on a Monday and a fit on Wednesday they will compensate you. It does not mean that the vaccine caused the reaction just that it is possible. The reporting system VAERS is designed to pick up reactions in the general public but has been corrupted because anyone can add a reaction (which is necessary for it to work). A recent study examined 32 deaths reported as a result of the HPV vaccine, it followed all of them up and none could reasonably be blamed on the vaccine, again e.g. one death was a drug overdose, another from a car accident and the time of reaction (not death just the beginning of the reaction) range from 2 days to 9 months,
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My daughter was born around the time pnumecchocial became mainstream. I remember the first round of vaccinations were not availbale on the free list for another couple of months but you could pay for them. She was 2 months old at that time and the list of children dying from these diseases was growing fast. When I took her in for her vaccinations I did not hesitate to pay extra to include this one. At the end of the day what price do you put on your child’s head – I figured my beautiful daughter was worth a lot more than the $150 I had to pay. Here’s a nice fact – thanks to vaccination of Gen X (my generation – I remember lining up at school for vaccinations, no-one considered that it wouldn’t be done, we just all did it. It was a rite of passage into teen years) measles has been virtually eradicated in Qld. The only way you can catch it is from someone who has travelled from another country. How good is that?!
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When my daughter came out of ICU at 1 month old corrected we paid $2000 for a vaccine that is not commonly given or covered by medicare or health funds to reduce her risk of getting bronchiolitis. The vaccine lasted one month and we gave her 3 months worth. The first moth she didn’t have it, (The paediatrician told us it was past flu season and she was probably safe now), she got bronchiolitis. But it was very, very mild and she came through it like an absolute trooper. $6000 was a lot of money to spend on insurance against a ‘maybe, what if’ but good golly I’m glad we spent it and I would spent it again in a heartbeat.
I should mention, our health fund very kindly covered us for $25 per shot – we bought a nice bottle of champers with the rebate!
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We really need adults to get vaccinated as well as children, this website is great for information about what you might want to consider.
http://www.myvaccination.com.au/default.aspx?gclid=sem:ps:myvaccination:2012
My parents took almost two years to catch up on all their vaccines as they hadn’t been immunised as children (because some people did protest actually!) and they have always been annoyed that they weren’t vaccinated.
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I’m not anti-vaccination – I’m anti pro-vaxxers being so in people’s face about it.
People waste so much time debating the vaccination issue – let people make up their own minds whether they vaccinate their kids. Maybe question why its not compulsory? If there was NO risk involved, the Government would make it compulsory.
Rather than trying to coerce people into vaccinating their kids by giving them a guilt trip about their poor informed parenting choices or putting them down because they’ve made a choice they’re entitled to make, how about look at the way you’re going about trying to get your ‘please vaccinate your kids’ message across.
And while you’re about it, how about people look at health issues that are much more “interesting” in terms off messing up kids lives & damaging society at large, like diabetes or mental health issues such as anxiety, depression and psychosis.
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Government cannot make it compulsory because the do-gooder will be up in arms about people’s rights…
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Mark me as a do – gooder then. I don’t want to live in a country that can make you undergo any type of medical procedure against your will.
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Are you also against laws making it illegal for people with HIV to have unprotected sex with people who don’t know they are HIV positive? Or people with notifiable diseases being quarantined against their will?
The “medical procedure” of getting a needle (actually, I think some of them are now just drops of liquid on your tongue) is only partly for the benefit of the patient. It is mainly for the eradication of the disease, and the protection of OTHER people. This is a bit different to having your appendix out or fixing a broken leg.
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No. I’m not against making it illegal for HIV positive people intentionally infecting others. I am, however, against making them have treatment for HIV if they don’t want to. We have basic rights, including the right not to undergo medical treatment or procedures if we choose not to.
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I completely agree Suki – there are better ways to fix the issue than having the government go back to the dark ages.
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You live in a country where taxes are mandatory, as it car and licence registration. YOu already live in a controlled environment. I would like to live in a country where people are not forced to pay the price for the bad decisions of others. My friend lost a baby to whooping cough 2 months ago, that little man paid the price for the decisions of others to not vaccinate AND to go out in public and spread their whooping cough around.
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What happened to my comment to Suki from this arvo?
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I think you’ve just proved Liz’s point. Some of the comments on here are probably doing the cause more harm than good. You don’t convert people by calling them do-gooders or fools. It would be more helpful to address the worries of parents who aren’t vaccinating or to tell positive stories about your own experiences with vaccinations rather than just abusing people.
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Spot on Anon – the tone of conversation needs to shift to a more positive, constructive and supportive one.
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Have you ever read an anti-vax website, blog or social media site? It’s difficult to be positive and constructive when “the other side” have no concern for facts or reality.
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And no, I haven’t read their websites – I have no need to as I’m not anti-vaccines. I have friends who range from extreme anti’s to a bit anti (only partly vaccinate) to full vaxxers. I have one friend who is an infectious diseases nurse, did her masters in it, and even she isn’t as full on in putting anti-vaxxers down, as some of the people on this thread are.
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But it’s really hard to not get angry and insulting when people are deliberately with-holding medicine from children out of their own stupidity and inability to understand basic medicine..
I mean, some of these people are so thick that they say “WAKE UP SHEEPLE” – how do you reason with someone so backwards?
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Hello you are a fool – governments make plenty of things compulsory. If there were zero risk, they would do so with vaccination as well. The fact is, some people, as stated by a woman above, do suffer adverse effects from vaccination. I believe the conversation needs to be about minimizing the fears parents have about the impacts, not putting them down.
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OMG, irony! Have you actually looked at your consecutive posts? One calls for a more positive tone to the comments and the one directly underneath calls someone a fool.
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Sorry didn’t see the name of the post you were responding to.
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Governments make seat belts compulsory despite the fact they can cause serious injury or death – so your point doesn’t hold water. That said, I think you’ll find most pro-vaxxers don’t even want compulsory vax so the point is moot anyway.
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You’re the type of pro-vaxxer I’m talking about Andy – just going for the jugular. At the end of the day vaxxing isn’t compulsory – the government could make it so if they wanted. They make other medical procedures above parental consent, so they have the power to do so and as more people vaccinate than not, there could be a great deal of community support. But in our democracy, people have a right to make this choice for their children. Insulting them isn’t creating more vaxxing members.
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Jugular? I merely pointed out two simple facts that appear to dismiss some of the points you’re making. I didn’t swear or call you a nasty name or anything. Jeez!
You said above that you don”t read anti-vax sites and yet you are lecturing people who have read them on how to deal with the people who write them and those who believe what’s written there. So tell me, how do we minimise the fears of parents who believe what they are being told things like vaccines causing autism, or containing mind-control micro-chips or that it’s all an evil profiteering scam and that homeopathy (distilled water) is better?
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Comparing seat beats and car accidents with a medical procedure or intervention isn’t comparing apples with apples. I respect that many of the pro-vaxxers are basing their arguments on the scientific facts (that are currently assumed as validated), so if you’re going to argue a case there, please make sure its based in good science & apply logic to comparisons or explanations. One I’d compare to is blood transfusion (foreign body being injected to save or protect a life) – the medico’s can over-rule a parent in this case.
If the question we are posing is about parents making choices about vaccination for their children, and the children’s apparent negative impact on the wider community through being unimmunised, then we need to find a better example of government law that can be compared.
What we know as at now, is that its not compulsory.
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Andy, I’m responding directly to this article, particularly the title, which is inflammatory to say the least – In fact I’d go as far to say that its irresponsible. You are the one bringing anti-vaxxers websites into the discussion, not me.
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I disagree Liz, I think the issue should be about ensuring people educate themselves before making a decision. I’m not for mandatory vaccination, but I am for mandatory requirements for health care professionals (registered or otherwise) to only release information that is accurate, proven and validatable .. that will dump the AVN out of the equation because as the NSW government says, they do NOT give out accurate information.
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I’d be up for that too Illyria – correct information being dispersed that is. As I’ve said to Andy, I’m responding directly to this article and the tone of it, which I personally think is counter-productive to the ultimate aim of increasing the vaccination rate in Australia. It’s been productive in getting extreme pro-vaxxers their outlet – maybe that’s the articles purpose and anyone else who is trying to be a moderate voice shoudn’t have commented.
The facts as at the moment, is that vaccination is not compulsory, so people are entitled to make that decision for their families. So I agree, make the information based on facts (as at now – because that’s what scientific facts can provide), about how many people aren’t effected by immunisation, how it impacts herd immunity, but also be real about what can happen if things go wrong and what support the parents will get if things do go wrong – this is what I mean by reducing the fear, because the fears are out there and its stopping people jabbing their kids That’s what needs to be addressed in a constructive manner if things are to be improved. Insulting parents for a decision they’re entitled to make, isn’t working.
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When I read an article like this one, I don’t assume it is intended (solely) to improve immunisation rates. I assume, rather, that it is intended to expose the ignorance of groups and individuals who claim to have superior knowledge (superior to the medical experts) about vaccination but who claim it is a deadly scam. Especially groups that enjoy a public profile.
That doesn’t mean education about immunisation can’t also be written about, by this author or by others. But when a group of conspiracy nuts* (see below) is actually seen as some sort of authority on the subject, I think articles like this one might have some value for some people who are perhaps unfamiliar with the extreme views of such groups.
*The AVN did quote from and link to an article claiming the swine flu vaccine was made by the Illuminati and contained mind-control microchips intended for the purpose of perpetrating genocide. The Illuminati is, I understand, a theorised race of lizard-people overlords. A lot of people think the AVN is a legitimate vaccine lobby group. How does one counter their errant nonsense without pointing out that it’s errant nonsense?
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I’m anti anti-vaxxers pushing their lies in people’s faces about it.
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The problem is Lulu, both sides of this argument think they’re right – saying they are full of ‘lies’ won’t create a situation that increases the vaccination rate, which is the ultimate aim of the pro-vaxxers agenda.
Read Anon’s comment above. They summarize so well.
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Small point – no one is saying there is no risk. They are saying that the risk of a major incident is incredibly small when weighed against the risk of death from a deadly disease.
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So how can that be communicated in a way that reduces community fears and ultimately increases the vaccination rate?
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Even though it gets called insensitive or whatever, people need to step up and look at things logically and stop falling for vibes and trying to stick it to the man. Look at it rationally, as a few of us have variously pointed out – do you honestly seriously think government/pharma/your GP/immunisation nurses are all part of a big conspiracy to kill everyone?
This stuff has been communicated for years, but if you’re trying to communicate with people who won’t listen, what do you, as someone who is skeptical about vaccination suggest? Because fact and logic aren’t getting through.
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Not saying you wouldn’t say it to people’s face – I mean by keyboard warrior being strongly for a cause via a keyboard. I said insulting as some of the things written on this thread (non-vaxxers being akin to child neglecters or abusers) are possibly insulting to some.
That’s just the problem – many peeps in our community aren’t scientific and there’s plenty of skepticism around it. One of the areas that needs to be addressed. Again, done in a moderate not extreme way.
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But they are extreme nonsensical views. Why should they be given airtime when I, as a non-scientific person, can drive a truck through the holes in their arguments with a basic working knowledge of how immunisation works?
Those pushing the anti-vax canards deserve to be berated and corrected for their dangerous arrogance and illogical appeals to vibes and attitudes. Why is it OK for an anti-vaxer to be skeptical but for us to be skeptical of claims made and point them out is somehow abusive?
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Good point. It is really difficult to educate the population when there is an organisation dedicated to spreading mistrust of medical and pharmaceutical industries, which encapsulate the very organisations we would look to for accurate advice. But the information is out there from reputable sources if you look hard enough. Just like anything else, people should be informed and check the source before they make a judgement.
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Hi Kris & Mumof2CM – I appreciate what you’re saying & I understand the frustration you feel as passionate advocates, but the title of this article is like a red rag to a anti-vaxxer. I know a few of them, and I know of a few not-so-full-on anti-vaxxers. Both groups of parents think they are doing the right thing by their kids – for various reasons, but mostly surrounding the belief that the body gets stronger immunity by fighting disease itself – also about the size of the schedule and how young they start vaccinations. I know of a couple who just waited until their kids were 4, then started vaccinating. A few have beliefs about conspiracy with pharma companies and others because their kids aren’t cognitively or physically in the normal range. I respect their right to choose and we respectfully talk about the pro’s and con’s.
I don’t see that insulting people through being a keyboard warrior is the right way to go. It just adds to the divide, which is not helping the cause of increasing herd immunity against the deadly diseases – one of which is the current concerning spike in measles cases.
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I can assure you that I’m no keyboard warrior – anything I say here I would say to someone’s face.
That immune systems get stronger by fighting diseases is how immunisation works! Why would you expose your kids/self/others who CAN’T get immunised to diseases which can kill those who get them?
I assume they’re all immunologists or similar?
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Perhaps things would be much worse than they are were it not for the keyboard warriors exposing the fundamentalist anti-vaxxers for the conspiracy nutters that they are.
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Sorry Liz, but while those who choose not to vaccinate put the lives of others at risk and while they put their anti vaccination rubbish in our faces then of course we will respond. I find it sad that people choose not to vaccinate as they are putting their childrens lives at risk, but I get very angry when they take those unimmunised children into the public where there are little babies and children / adults who have cancer or other diseases that affect their ability to fight disease. These people may die and the anti vaccinator will be ignorantly unaware of the trail of bodies left in their wake
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http://theconversation.edu.au/no-youre-not-entitled-to-your-opinion-9978 — Some of you need to read this. This should not be a ‘conversation’ nor a ‘debate’. Vaccination is not like other parenting choices. It’s not breast or bottle, control crying or leashes. The science is simple: vaccinate. I agree that attacking these people is not productive, but this topic should not be treated as trivial as ‘debating’ whether or not you put your child on a leash in public. It is so very far from being trivial.
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I agree with you – I shouldn’t have trivialised it, as it is still dealing with concerns that are currently relevant (measles outbreak). What I could have said is that there are other problems with decisions that parents make that impact kids and the community at large, that aren’t being as passionately addressed as this one. I find it concerning the way our community deals with issues around vaccinating in general – putting people down for a choice they are legally entitled to make, isn’t OK.
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But you are putting people down for exercising their right to express an opinion on anti-vaxxers. Last time I checked, it wasn’t illegal to comment, even strongly, on mamamia.
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Everyone has a right to express their opinion – I’m saying that expressing opinions about anti-vaxxers in the tone of insult that is prevalent from some extreme pro’s is counterproductive to the overall aim of increasing the vax rate.
Putting people down? Where have I insulted? Please let me know, because as far as I’m aware, I’ve commented on the tone of the pro-vaxxers conversation surrounding this issue (that I actually believe is a very important) – not called anyone an idiot, nuts, a loser and neglectful or abusive parent…
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For anyone who is considering objecting to having their children vaccinated I beg you, go to a major city/country hospital and see the effects of whooping cough on a newborn baby. When my Miss 9 was born at 31wks she spent a few weeks in the NICU, in that time we saw a 3wk baby girl admitted with whooping cough. I will never ever forget the sound of that poor baby girl trying to breath nor will I ever forget the sound of her parents anguished wails and sobs when this poor little girl lost her battle for breath and passed away. Please please please vaccinate your children and keep there and your vaccinations up to date.
Also, a bit off subject but while we were in the NICU we also saw some babies who were being weaned off herion addiction using methadone. I strongly believe that drug addicts or regular drug users should be made to listen to a baby suffering from the shocking effects of herion withdrawal. Gut wrenching.
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Not to mention the long term problems as the children grow up, growth problems, developmental delays, learning issues etc..I have a friend who fosters a child who was born to a herion addicted mother and that poor little child faces daily challenges.
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I saw this every day for almost 5 months. It is unfathomable. The nurses and doctors must die a bit inside every time they see a newborn heroin addicted baby.
While was on bed rest my room was next to a woman who would go outside 5 times a day for a cigarette and had a flask with her at all times. The day my daughter was born she was nearly full term and came into the NICU for a tour. Her doctor said to one of the neonatologists ‘I have been trying to get her to give up smoking and drinking, do you have any words that could convince her from what you see here?’ The woman lost it, swore at both loudly and screamed ‘I’m not going to change my effing mind lay off! I’ll smoke if I want to and drink whatever I want. I did it with my other 5 kids!”
I broke a little bit. I had been doing everything in my power for over a month on bed rest, beating myself up with guilt because my body made a mistake I had no control over and this woman was knowingly harming her unborn child. But it was her body and her life and it worked out fine for her other kids, so she said.
That is just one story, I have hundreds. I wish I could unhear so many things from that overcrowded ward.
Off topic, rant over.
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The cries of narcotic addicted babies are particularly difficult to hear and the fact that their parents often don’t turn up on any regular sort of basis to see them. It’s actually hardest to be around when DOCS turns up with security/police to take a baby into care. Even when they’re in private rooms, the screaming/crying is painful. It makes you realise that no matter what sort of parent they are, everyone wants to keep their baby.
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Faybian I gather you are a nurse of some sort? Specifically working with kids? If you are, (again its off topic), I just wanted to say thank you.
The nurses I met were so amazing and dedicated and got so little for their trouble. They put up with so very much. They were for the most part, kind and understanding, and at the time I was too concerned with my own family to notice the nose on my own face, let alone the work of the people around me. I never really got a chance to say thankyou. So since you have dedicated your career to aiding the health of children, because I never got to express it and in case the families you help are unable to say it…thank you.
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Mum of Two Cheeky Monkeys, that must have been so hard. A good friend of mine went through a similar thing when she was hospitalised at 19 weeks gestation when she was pregnant with her twins due to her starting to dilate early. She said that she laid flat on her back months too scared to move in fear of losing her babies, she found even getting up to go to the toilet stressful. She said there were other mums in her ward who had been ordered to have the same bedrest as her but still got up and went outside for a smoke every couple of hours. She thought to herself if she loses her babies and those women don’t there is no justice in this world when she is trying with all of her being to keep her babies in her for as long as she could. The only way she could describe it was that it appeared that these women were putting their own needs over their babies and that they just didn’t care.
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I visited a friend in hospital with her little girl and there was a 5 month old baby girl in the bed next to her. No visitors the whole week my friend had been there and the nurses didn’t say much but indicated the parents weren’t really up to caring for her. The nurses would come in and give her a bottle and a cuddle and then prop her back up again in front of the TV until 4 hours later when they would do it again. I stood there watching this little tiny thing just wanting to scream, ‘give her to me! I’ll take her home. I’ll love her like my own!’. I’m sure she would have loved my home with two crazy little boys for brothers.
I’ve never forgotten her and now that we’re in a better position we’re looking into fostering. No little ones should have to be that lonely.
I don’t know how nurses do it. It would break me. Thank god there are people who are stronger than me who can.
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We had no doubt or question in our mind when it came to being asked after Jake was born if we were wanting to vaccinate. You do anything to protect your child, and immunizations are just another protective measure
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This article sums up perfectly my thoughts re Anti-Vax views. The people of our ‘vaccination generation’ have never had to live through the horrors of the times when vaccines were not around. You could compare it to people who have not lived through a war not understanding how devastating it can be.
It is dangerous to become complacent with things like this. Just because our generation hasn’t experienced doesn’t mean that there is a threat that we still need to be vigilant against.
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Well, I don’t know why my earlier comment and also the request to see if ti was in spam didn’t show up.
However I wanted to say that, although I’m a passionate and ardent vaxxer and think anti-vax propaganda is dangerous and ridiculous, I don’t see how we can support FORCING people to vaccinate their children. Can you imagine people being rounded up, screaming and kicking, to be injected against their will? I doubt that we’ll ever see that in Australia and for that I’m very glad.
Nor can we do things like remove Medicare benefits … who suffers then? The children, who are already suffering at the hands of their anti-scientific parents.
The root of the problem is the poor science which is flourishing. The more anti-vaxxers there are, the more credence the cause automatically has. I think stopping the lies is a far more just and humane way to encourage people to vax.
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What lies?
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The anti-vaxxer propoganda rubbish that the AVN advertise on their website and facebook pages daily. This is a very dangerous organisation that should be discredited. Their name alone is deceiving, it scares me to think how many parents have turned to the “Australian Vaccination Network” looking for “unbiased” information regarding vaccinating their kids and have come away brainwashed.
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Can all the anti-vaxxers live together, away from the city somewhere, instead of putting my babies at risk?
I was amazed to discover that the Western Suburbs in Perth, a high socio-ecomonic area, supposedly populated by highly educated, high achievers has the lowest uptake of vaccinations – almost too low to ensure herd immunity.
Made me glad I live in the ‘burbs.
I might be a poor bogan but at least I’ll be disease free.
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I have commented on this before. Many anti vaxxers are educated, however mostly not educated in areas such as medicine, paediatrics or similar fields. And many are educated from private fee paying institutions in pseudo professions where entry is simply determined by ability to pay the fees, rather than an accreditied University.
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As much as I’d love for my children not to be exposed to vaccine preventable diseases (and more so, I want protection for those children who cannot be vaccinated due to illness or age), the children of anti-vaxxers are relying on the herd immunity given by vaccinated children around them for whatever protection they can get.
While I have little sympathy for adults who choose not to protect themselves, I can’t bear the idea that the children of those who refuse vaccines suffer because their parents have made an ill-informed decision not to protect them.
The demographics that anti-vaxxers fall in to are interesting to look at. There’s a similar situation to the one you describe in inner Sydney – well-off highly educated families refusing vaccination for their children. There are quite a few factors that I think may be in play – higher education levels giving parents the confidence to feel that they possess research skills and expertise greater than health professionals and government advisory bodies, the cultural meme which elevates maternal intuition above all else, the fallacy that that which is ‘natural’ is always preferable to that which ‘contains chemicals’, poor experiences with mainstream healthcare and a lack of experience with the adversity faced by those living in societies in which vaccine preventable diseases are far more prevalent than they are here.
Me, I’m in one of the lowest uptake areas in the country. It’s been nerve-wracking at times. My youngest had her Varicella vaccination last month and I was incredibly relieved to finally have my kids as protected as they can be.
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Similar in Sydney – there have been outbreaks of whooping cough over the last few years due to “conscientious objectors” in the eastern suburbs and lower north shore. I was one of the *lucky* ones who caught whooping cough thanks to them. Thank goodness my GP was up to date with current trends and tested for it – just prior to me heading to Melbourne to visit a friend and their newborn.
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A timely reminder that any adult planning to have contact with a newborn should have a WC booster. When my second was born, I refused to let anyone in the house (it was winter in the middle of a WC outbreak) who hadn’t had the booster, until he had his second shot.
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Just to add to the string of conversation…..be aware! Just as with medication, vaccinations can be harmful to some people. The good news is that pharmaceutical companies are starting to tailor their research and development these days toward individuality – ie based on genetic make up. We are not all carbon copies of each other, so cookie cutter medication will not work for everyone. After much research I suggest the following regarding children’s vaccinations. My research shows that vaccinations can contribute to autism, but it has alot to do with toxic overload in our environment, and genetics (remember these days it is more that 1 in 150 who are diagnosed with autism – whether or not you believe there is a link, the risk is very high so always be safe when it comes to toxic overload):
Assess and research the vaccine to see if it is safe and necessary.
never get multiple vaccines at one time, do not vaccinate when you are ill. You need a strong immune system because vaccines rely on this to form the required antibodies. Remember that these days children are given significantly more vaccines than we had when we were children! It is alot for a little body to cope with, let alone one with compromised immune system.
Space vaccinations well apart – you can tailor a regime with an open minded GP.
Played safely you can avoid many risks and gain on the benefits of being safe and avoid diseases.
Make sure that the vaccine has stood the test of time. Remember that pharmaceutical companies are profit driven, so it is easier for them to push something now and risk a lawsuit in 20 years time.
In short – just do your homework.
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You had me until you mentioned ‘homeopathic vaccinations’.
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It’s your child, its up to you to do what you think is best.
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Well that was an epic edit of your original post.
I agree with your current statement that it is up to parents to do what they think is best for their child.
I would add that it is up to everyone to ensure that parents are able to make their decisions based on accurate information. This is why I questioned your assertions and asked for your sources.
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What did happen to John’s original post? Has he deleted it or did you guys, MM?
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It might be your child, and so your choice. What about the good of all. I work in Aged Care and watch people die ever year because they do not vaccinate.
We have a law for drink driving because as a scoiety we know this impacts on us all. The same is for vaccination. If you do not vaccinate your child or your self, you are putting everyone in the community at risk.
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By saying this John I am seriously questioning your ‘research’ qualifications, surely you would understand the concept of herd immunisations and would therefore understand it’s not as simple as ‘your child, your rules’.
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This.
Fortunately, it looks like he’s just a blow-hard trying to sound smart. The autism link is a dead giveaway. Where is this research John?
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It might be your child, your decisions affect all of us in the community.
Your choice not to vaccinate against the Flu or whooping cough, and vulnerable members of the community are put at risk. I always thought that being a parent is about being a good community citzen, isnt that what we teach our children. Not vaccinating is the opposite. Not vaccinating effects all, it is a selfish act
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I don’t really see how the (presumably) unpublished and non-peer-reviewed findings of a single research chemist actually has any bearing on an immunological topic.
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So many anti-vax canards in one post!
Where has your research been published, John? I’m at uni so can access all the journals.
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Homeopathic vaccination is a euphemism for snake oil. You’re misrepresenting yourself and your qualifications by peddling this rubbish.
Vaccinations do not cause Autism. The study that showed a link between autism and vaccinations was fantasy and fraudulent. The numbers were made up.
Some children have negative reactions to vaccinations, and that is a tragic event when kids become disabled, but it’s a much bigger tragedy when several orders of magnitude more children are adversely affected by the disease.
Everyone should go and read “I Can Jump Puddles”, by Alan Marshall.
There is another saying that’s pertinent here too, “He who ignores history is doomed to repeat it”
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We were vaccinated as children, but nothing compared to what happens now. We had polio and rubella and small pox. There is a lot of interesting research about Japan changing the age at which they vaccinate and how many vaccinations are given at one time, with changed statistics of infant mortality. It is worth checking this all out. I was vaccinated, but my brother was not and he has never had any disease – measles or otherwise. Definitely each child is different and must be treated by good doctors individually.
Also when we got vaccinated, it was one shot per vial and then it was thrown away. Then the drug companies (to save costs and increase the profit margin) started producing multiple shot versions. This necessitates other additives being added – on top of the vaccine because the seal was violated for the first needle and subsequent needles.
My view is one shot per vial and I don’t want a needle being stuck back in that pack with the other chemicals inside going into any small baby. Who knows what that does to their brain or tissues. I think it is not the vaccine, but additives that need to be investigated and actually properly trialled. Where is the research that some chemicals do not cause the harm that people are so concerned about?
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Your view has been disproven by countless studies.
Are you suggesting that one vial does more than one person’s jab? Because I’ve watched what happens at jab clinics, and they get a new vial and new needle for every one.
Why on earth do you think that they have not been properly trialled?? Paul Offit gives an excellent rundown of the vaccine licensing process in his book “Deadly Choices – How the Anti-Vaccination Movement Threatens Us All”. They aren’t just thrown together willy nilly and put out there as the Antivaxers would try to have us believe. If you’re keen to research, there you go!
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Tet tox and diphtheria have been vaccines for donkeys years. Unless you’re close to 100 years you would also have been immunized for them.
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“I was vaccinated, but my brother was not and he has never had any disease – measles or otherwise.”
I’ve seen people walk across the road without looking – and they didn’t get hit by a car, truck or bus. So I guess it’s safe to do it that way.
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Well said and thankyou for summing up my sentiments.
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Thank you!
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Hi John,
Would you be able to let us know what your qualifications are? As you represent yourself as a ‘research chemist’ and are attempting to provide advice from a position of authority, I feel that it’s a relevant question to be asking.
Would you also be able to cite sources that support your claims that ‘homeopathic vaccinations’ are in any way effective? Ditto any credible research which suggests that there is any benefit to separating and spacing out vaccines.
Thank you.
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Do you have a link to this research?
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You forgot to add age as a contributor to autism, which unlike vaccinations has been PROVEN! The risk of having an autistic child is not going to stop people over the age of 35 having children, nor are people going to campaign to stop them.
Perhaps you could link your “research” so I could have a look. If it is a link to Vacctruth please don’t bother.
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@John the Research Chemist. “My research shows that vaccinations can contribute to autism” Really???
This myth that vaccinations cause autism was started by unethical and now disgrace Dr Andrew Wakefield (who has had his medical licence revoked). His “study” in 1998 only had 12 participants, most studies run from 100s to 1,000s of participants to try and reduce the margin for error. He either misrepresented or altered the medical history of all 12 participants to help achieve his “results”. And, if that wasn’t enough to ensure that his “study” was a complete fraud, at the time of the study he was in the pay of a law firm who was suing a vaccine manufacturer. They paid him 435 thousand pounds for the results he produced. No one, not even Mr Wakefield, has been able to reproduce the result of the original 1998 study.
Before you go perpetuating the vaccination/autism myth with ill-researched ‘truths’ from the internet have a think about people who might read what you say and base their own decisions on your misinformation.
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MM, when someone uses a title that indicates that they are a professional in a certain filed, do you think that in doing so, that person should be required to back up what they are saying with facts and links? Even with something that proves they are who they say they are.
When a person comes onto a forum and makes a comment using a name that is designed to give more weight to their argument and comment then I think it is only fair for there to be a higher expectation that, that person can back up their statements.
Pretending to be someone you are not, and pretending to educate people with “facts” when you are in fact no more qualified than anyone else in the conversation is not only immoral it is dangerous and wrong.
I think that Johns comments should only be allowed to stand if he provides links to studies he has published and links to actual proof of the claims he is making.
This post should not allow people with hidden agendas to high-jack it with mis-information and propaganda under the guise of and “expert” opinion.
Opinions should be welcomed and respected but propaganda disguised as professional “fact” should not.
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Yes it is a little suspicious. Although Putting a comment with a name like “xxx the researcher” is a bit over the top – hopefully everyone will see through it.
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When you say ‘do your homework’…that is not necessarily going to be easy achieve. The wrong information in uninformed hands can be very dangerous. Which is why we have so much anti vaxx propoganda out there.
Cold hard facts are here – vaxxinations prevent terrible diseases. Thats all anyone needs to know.
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Rubbish! Just as anyone can call themselves anything on the internet, anyone can publish anything. Like Kris 2040 I have access to the Uni library and would like to see the scientific journal articles (peer reviewed) that show that vaccination contributes to autism.
The reason more children are being diagnosed with autism these days is that we have a greater understanding of autism as a “spectrum” so it is not just those with severe autism who are being diagnosed.
Just because two things happen at the same time (certain vaccinations and autism diagnosis) does not mean they are linked. I would have presumed that a scientist would have understood this basic premise.
Anyone, like myself, who has a family member with autism and is honest will tell you that they recognized differences in that child beginning at, or soon after, birth.
I say all this every time an article such as this is published and the anti-vaxxers contribute. I am sorry that I have to keep saying it but I think it is important and I also always say this. My granddaughter is in a class with other autistic children. They are all fully vaccinated. Any one with an autistic family member would do anything to avoid the extra burden that whopping cough or other serious illness would place on a child already so challenged by life.
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Can you explain “toxic overload” in relation to autism and vaccination. Especially given the fact that we regularly breathe in minute amounts of carbon monoxide (thanks cars), as well as other pollutants, mercury in small amounts is present in fish and so many other variables.
Can you also let me know your criteria for a “safe and necessary” vaccine please? Preferably providing proper peer reviewed research.
Also let us know why you must not vaccinate if ill (example head cold). References too, please.
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“Your research?” Which university are you researching at?
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John, you say “My research shows that vaccinations can contribute to autism, but it has alot to do with toxic overload in our environment,..”
Can you tell us where your research is published so we can read what you measured and what you found?
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Just curious John.
Why are you presenting as a “research chemist” when the notions you presented couldn’t be further from global research trends?
How did you ascertain vaccines contribute to autism? As a chemist I mean? Where is the paper published or what was the methodology employed? What sample size and criteria did you use? Etc, etc…
Or do you mean you reviewed existing material? If so this is not research but opinion.
Thanks in advance.
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Assuming you get paid in your position as a “research chemist” (seriously?), then I have to assume that you are also profit-driven. So I guess I can dismiss your opinions.
And where’s your “homeopathy” reference gone? I mean seriously – homeopathy and chemistry make strange bedfellows (although some do say that opposites attract).
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Where did you get your qualification as a research chemist?
There is no proven link between autism and vaccination. You don’t even appear to know the difference between a vaccine and an antigen.
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Great post, Peter. I have to stop myself from raging when I hear about parents refusing vaccinations for their kids based on nonsense by the AVN.
I had whooping couch earlier this year, it was a bit of a pandemic in my town for a bit and I was terrified that I may have inadvertently affected children/people at risk. I called everyone I had been in contact with who I knew who also had contact with kids/were at risk to let them know. The worst part is its what my doctor described as an atypical disease, meaning I had a bit of a cold for a few days, not even severe enough to take time off work, but once the cold went away I developed a cough that got worse and worse over the next two weeks. With those symptoms, it would be so easy to infect a baby without realising you’re even sick! Vaccination is so, so important. I will now be getting boosters when required so I don’t possibly put someone at risk again.
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I think vaccination is easily the greatest human achievement of the 20th century. Can you imagine watching your precious child struggle around with leg calipers, or spend the rest of their life hooked up to a ventilator, knowing that you could have done something to prevent it, and you hadn’t? How could your child forgive you? How could you forgive yourself? It’s horrible just thinking about it.
I take my darling boy along for his shots whenever he’s due – I truly believe I wouldn’t be doing my duty as a mother if I didn’t. I’m more than happy and grateful to live in a time and place where I can take advantage of the years of hard work and research done by people a lot smarter than I am. It’s so sad that some people are determined to see it as something sinister or dangerous, rather than what it is – good work done by good people who have made the world a bit better for my generation and those to come. God bless ‘em.
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God I’d feel so vulnerable if I wasn’t vaccinated! I’ve had all the necessary ones except chicken pox, as i had it as a child (also there was no vaccine avaliable at the time). However as soon as it came out my brother and sister got vaccinated against it.
I got my dog vaccinated without a second thought, as I love him and don’t want him to die from something preventable, and I will do the same for my future children! He couldn’t go to puppy school without his vaccination records being shown, I think it should be the same with children in pre schools and schools (unless they medically can’t have a vaccination due to and allergy or something).
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Chicken pox vaccination wasn’t availble when I was a kid. I remember getting horribly sick. However, my darling brother had two spots and was sick for a day. It still annoys me
But I digress, my point is that I was horribly sick and chicken pox isn’t nearly as dangerous as the measles or whooping cough. How anyone can NOT vaccinate against these horrendous diseases is beyond selfish.
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I met this woman once who was convinced that her child had gotten Autism from a vaccination, even though the child got it 5 months after the shot was given. Then she said that I was deluded for not believing her, and that I should be ashamed of myself for supporting vaccinations.
Well sorry for being a responsible member of society.
The people that don’t believe in vaccinations are always the people who weren’t around when there were terrible diseases that couldn’t be cured.
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You do not “catch” Autism. It is not a disease, it is a mental illness. Autistic people are not sick. Their brain just works differently.
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However in some cases of autism there is a sudden onset of symptoms some time between 12 and 18 months, after earlier apparently normal development. This is very well documented.
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Autism is a neurological disorer it is not a mental illness
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Wow brilliant article! I was totally for vaccination before reading this but the article really pointed out the dire situation we would be in if we didnt vaccinate.
FFS the anti vaccers are off their effing rockers. It actually makes no sense whatsoever!!
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If these anti-vaxxers want to claim that vaccines don’t work because polio is still “present” then maybe they should take a look at smallpox, which WAS completely eradicated thanks to a very successful global vaccination program.
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Polio is on it’s way out too. India has announced this year that it has been polio free for over 12 months. Let’s hope it’s not too long for other countries.
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As far as I’m concerned not vaccinating a child constitutes child abuse.
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Anti vaxxers such as Meryl Dorey and her group (who so wrongly take the name of Australian Vaccination Network) scare the hell out of me.
They are delusional and they ignore science – that’s really worrying.
Anyone who has seen footage of a baby with whooping cough fighting for every breath, every bit of oxygen, wouldn’t think twice about vaccination, it’s the only smart way to be – in my opinion there shouldn’t even be a choice.
Great article, thanks Peter.
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I just think its plain stupid being an ‘anti vaxxer’. My son is fully vaccinated for his age, and will continue to get any vaccine at his milestones, or when reccommended. He was treated this year for meningococcal. He was then 13 months old. No one should ever have to go through what my son went through. All is good and fine now, but to, I suppose, ‘intentionally’ put your children at that risk is absolutely beyond me. Not just for meningococcol, but for any preventable illness. I say its borderline child abuse not vaccinating your children.
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Meningococcol!! That is so so scary! Very happy to hear your son recovered!
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What a great article.
I don’t have kids yet and have only one (very dear!) friend who is an anti-vaxxer and pro homebirth (do these go hand in hand?). Both her children are happy and healthy and I hope with all my heart that they stay that way.
But it seems to me to be a very first world privilege to choose not to protect your children against disease.
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The unfortunate truth is that when you have children you will need to keep them away from your friend’s children until you are able to have them vaccinated. It is newborns and those who are unable to have vaccinations due to health reasons that are most at risk from those who are unvaccinated. A couple of years ago I had two friends whose babies caught whooping cough because some people in the area didn’t have their children vaccinated and some adults failed to keep theirs current.
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She lives in another state – all good!
But a really good point. I don’t even now if many of my other friends are pro or anti vax – or how to ask them if I were ever in a situation that required it..!
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We asked all our friends with kids when I was pregnant if their children were fully vaccinated. We also asked the adults if they were up to date with their booster shots.
Any one who wasn’t, wasn’t allowed to see our newborn.
This may seem over the top to some, but no way in hell would I risk my child getting something like whooping cough, just so someone who wasn’t vaccinated could see my baby.
And before anyone asks, no, we didn’t take her out to public places before 6 weeks.
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I have a feeling I’d be the same!
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One conspiracy theory I will NEVER understand is Big Pharma. How is possible for people to believe that Every. Single. Medical Health Professional in the entire world is either:
1. Being paid off by Big Pharma but really know that Vaccinations are a New World Order control method or similar. Ergo, they are all greedy/evil/have ulterior motives
2. Too stupid (after years of medical training and making a commitment to saving people’s lives) to realise there are sinister undertones to Vaccination
3. Completely motivated by “pay-offs” and blindly encourage vaccination for their own financial gain.
There are how many medical professionals in the world? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? And yet they are ALL* under the Big Pharma thumb? How is this even remotely believable? And how utterly insulting to the people who choose to spend their lives saving strangers’ lives every day.
*excepting of course, the minority who “know the truth”.
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Yeah I’m a nurse, I have given hundreds of immunisations. My big pharma check for all my evil deeds must be lost in the mail?
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Sorry to hear that MJ – maybe the cheques have been intercepted by anti-vaxxers, to add to their vast volumes of “evidence”? Tee hee.
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I’m waiting for mine too..
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I concur, Shaezy!
At the same time, I struggle to fathom how so many people believe and spread Big Pharma conspiracy theories and use the Big Pharma Shill gambit. I can only assume it to be a sad reflection of their own life experiences if they truly believe that so many medical professionals and researchers are either corrupt, naive or a combination of the two.
I’ve got a few links to articles which critically examine Big Pharma conspiracy theorists on a blog post I’ve written on the subject, one specifically outlines how widespread and absurd the conspiracy would need to be. I don’t know how Mamamia’s admins feel about people posting links in comments (or whether it breaches this website’s standard of etiquette), but you can Google: evidence please big pharma shill, if you’re interested in reading.
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I think they see Big Pharma as money-grubbing because all homeopathic and herbal remedy companies give their products away for free. That’s why so many websites label them “complimentary”.
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I tend to agree most of the time. However, Ben Goldacre’s recent book ‘Bad Pharma’ is a bit of an eye-opener!!
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YES YES YES!!! I don’t want to say more because I get too upset but……. PLEASE VACCINATE!!!!!!!
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