My Mum committed suicide on April 9, 2000. I was 21 at the time, in Japan on a Monbusho scholarship. I had called the day it happened, or the day after, when there were already relatives in the house trying to function for my family members. My brother’s girlfriend answered the phone and told me Mum wasn’t there. I had my results for my first semester exams. I wanted Mum to be proud! I said I’d call back.
My brother’s girlfriend answered the phone the next day too. It was so confusing. She said Mum was out. Again? Where? Why? Mum was never out. That was the thing; that was how things had become.
And then I got the call. On my boyfriend’s mobile the next night – which was strange, again. I answered in Japanese, moshi moshi, and I heard my brother’s voice. Kate! It’s Paul – in Osaka! I’ve come to see you! I was so excited. I danced with abandon on the street, dark and glossy with spring rain as we waited for the taxi. I knew it didn’t make sense but who cared! Paul had come to surprise me, we would go straight to a bar and I would show him my Osaka, the place I had come to know in the last six months.
The elevator doors opened and there he was. Paul in Osaka. He lurched forward and hugged me tight. Too tight. He wouldn’t let go. And then he said it. Mum’s died. Mummy’s gone to heaven. I’ve come to take you home.
My life has never been the same, and I lost that girl, right then I lost her. The girl dancing on the street in the rain with excitement. Gone. I couldn’t yet process that I had lost my Mum, but I felt that loss of me. It wiped me out. It effaced me.
Mum threw herself off the overpass onto the Monash freeway. It was about 9am on a Sunday morning. I think she may have seen my father drive past first with my sister in the car. My mother had asked my sister to come down and visit her – Jane lived in Canberra at the time – because she was not okay, and Dad had picked up Jane from the airport that morning. I think of all these initiatives they have now, R U OK Day, and Beyond Blue, and signs up in doctor’s waiting rooms – and yet, it was too hard for my Mum. My timid, Catholic mother, who didn’t know why she had depression, and didn’t know that it was okay; that she needed help and it was okay.
God only knows the state of her mind that morning. Dad said later that she seemed ‘very dark’. She hadn’t been sleeping properly. She had just started a course of Zoloft proscribed to her only a few days earlier, but she hadn’t even told my Dad. Was she so ashamed? Scared. In my mother’s mixed up mind she thought it made more sense to end it all that morning rather than face change, face humiliation, get help.
Her death is too horrifying for me to think about. But I often wondered – in those last spilt seconds, did her life elongate, did a part of her mind wake up and realise what she was doing, that she was making a horrible mistake? Did she die with regret and shame and horror? What was she thinking?
My Mum doesn’t fit the statistics. She was 52 when she died, married with four grown-up children, a teacher. She was to become a grandma to seven beautiful grandchildren – including my daughter Emi – but she didn’t know that then. I wish she had’ve known. I wish she had’ve known that there was help out there, that she could have got through whatever it was. That we would have been there for her. I would have done anything for her, to help her. I would have brushed her hair and gone for walks with her and told her anything, given her anything.
Gone is permanent. My Dad has remarried now, and my brothers have three children each, and my sister and I don’t talk much about Mum’s death anymore. None of us do. Sometimes we look back at things that have happened and we attribute it to our grief. To what happened to all of us. But we can’t change it. Nothing can bring back our Mum. We miss her. We love her. We forgive her. We don’t understand and we never will. We grieved in private over the years, independently of each other. We couldn’t really help each other. We got on with things because we had to, not because we wanted to. Our family was gutted that day and it’s never been the same.
I wanted to share this because I believe in the help that is out there. I know systems are not perfect and that facing problems can seem insurmountable, but no-one deserves to suffer like my mother did; no-one deserves that death. No family deserves what happened to us, on Mother’s Days, at Christmases, all those private moments, all that pain. We all lost.
If you need immediate help, you can contact:
Lifeline – 13 11 14
Suicide Call Back Service – 1300 659 467
Kids Helpline – 1800 55 1800
MensLine Australia – 1300 78 99 78
SANE Australia has fact sheets on mental illness as well as advice on getting treatment. Visit www.sane.org or call 1800 18 SANE (7263).
You can also visit beyondblue: the national depression initiative (1300 22 4636) or the Black Dog Institute, or talk to your local GP or health professional.
Kate is an aspiring writer and mother who works full-time in the community sector in Melbourne. She is writing her first novel about loss and friendship, and has been writing for Spook magazine this year. You can find her on Twitter here and her blog here.








Comments
101 Comments so far
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Thank you Kate for sharing the story of your mum. And thank you to all the also amazing people who have joined this conversation and been so honest and open about suicide, depression and mental illness. All your comments and stories are so moving. My birth mother committed suicide 30 years ago so I never got to meet her. I suppose she could no longer live with the pain of her mental illness. I’ve known the extended birth family for 22 years now but I only found out a few months ago that she committed suicide. The family don’t want to talk about it. A lot of the family have issues with depression and anxiety so I suppose it must be genetic as I do too. So scary about the Zoloft as that is the first anti depressant I tried. The doctor was very clear that it wouldn’t work for a few weeks and I was devastated but I kept going back to the doctor all the time and checking in and stayed on it for a couple of years. I’ve also tried Effexor (awful) and Pristiq (least side effects). But rest, mediation, exercise, trying to eat well and drink only a minimum of alcohol is also necessary. As is being self aware and knowing the triggers. When I am feeling edgy and unwell I know what to do and will haunt the doctor and even the emergency room at the hospital if I have to so as to keep in check and well. Best wishes everyone.
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This is a really beautiful, heartwrenching story. I think it’s the kind of story that reaches in and touches everyone’s worst hurt.
And I agree with the moral. But also that sometimes when people ask for help, they don’t get it. People don’t want to look after them. And professionals fail them. But I guess I have learnt that there will be others who don’t fail, and those who feel worst have to find it in themselves to ask another person. And another. It’s not other people’s fault, but not everyone does have help and support and love. And sometimes realising that, when you’ve opened your heart, can be the final straw.
So if someone asks you for help, please help them, even if they make you feel annoyed, angry, put upon. Just help. And without thinking you will know what will fix things. Because you can’t know, but you can help by being there and not begrudging it. But if you can’t fix it, don’t blame yourself. If it’s too much to bear, you have to ask for help for yourself, too.
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Kate – you are so beautiful in writing this piece….. the effect on the family was huge… Jan my beloved aunt who made me laugh so much….I dreamt about her on and off for many years after she died and shed many tears. It seems like yesterday but it has already been 11 years. I always thing of her when I see advertisements for organisation like RU OK Day and think if there was one Jan out there that it could help I am grateful for that day. A beautiful account of a heartbreaking event – well done! Love Em xx
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My dad – I was 9 and he hung himself..
My mum continually tried to kill herself up until I was 13.
My oldest cousin gassed himself in his car – he was 21 and I was 18.
Close family friend/uncle shot himself when I was 19.
I don’t hate any of them for leaving us behind.
I understand their depth of pain and am just relieved that they all finally found peace.
Mum has faced incredible struggles all her life and is an amazingly strong woman. I am so proud of her.
Thank you Kate – suicide is all around us and needs to be talked about so that people are not scared to ask for help.
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You are amazing isabella…. Truly amazing
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My dad, 1990, with a shotgun. I was eight. It still breaks my heart a little to think of all the wonderful things that have happened since then that he denied himself the chance to see – the birth of his first grandchild (my daughter) this year for one.
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In all the sadness, Kate there was one part of your story that made me smile. Your brother Paul flew all the way to Osaka so he could break the news to you whilst giving you a big hug. He sounds like an amazing brother.
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He is an amazing brother! He has always been so caring. And given me a lot of pineapples ($50 notes) over the years. Especially when I was a single Mum.
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my dad, 1975, with his car.
i was three.
depression was an even bigger stigma, especially for men.
i can’t imgine how different my life would be had he survived.
his parents and sibblings would be nicer, probably. my mum would be a bit saner. maybe.
i might be less like an abandonned child, too eager to please and be loveable. maybe.
if you’re feeling bad, get help.
please.
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Beautiful story. Truly heartwrenching. Just for all the readers: one of the danger points for suicide is a couple of days after someone starts medication. This is because they are not feeling better but the medication has given them enough volition to actually do something about it. If you yourself are in that position, I would urge you to seek help immediately. If you have a family member on medication I would urge you to treat this time as especially dangerous. And don’t EVER let a medical professional treat you as hysterical. Better safe than sorry.
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It’s late, hubby is asleep, my baby girl is asleep and I can’t sleep because i cant get your beautifully written article out of my head Kate. My mum committed suicide 17months ago on May 14th 2010, 3 days after my daughter was born. I write it down and it still doesn’t seem real. I am so angry and my family is so broken and she was so selfish to have done this and yet I too would have done anything to help her, to save her if I had known what was going on inside her mind.
You are right Kate gone is so permanent. She is gone and she is never coming back. I just want to say to those who are suffering from depression in all its forms what I would say to my mum if I could – I am BEGGING you not to do this. Please tell me what’s wrong and let me help. I miss my mum. Thank you Kate for your wonderful article
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Hey Anon,
Reading your comment, I couldn’t help but respond out of hope for you that you make sure you treat yourself very kindly and gently this weekend. Particularly as this article’s relevant for you right now, but also through the future grieving of all those complicated layers. I say ‘this weekend’ as reading over an article as poignant as this has a way of circulating around and around inside our head and heart space, only moving, or rearranging, all the original feelings back up, yet again, from the depths. Being a Mother of course would helpfully ensure your moment-to-moment practical issues are a focus when the sun comes up each and every day, but it doesn’t mean the (now circulating) feelings aren’t still doing their churning thing inside us, running just below the surface. I couldn’t help but empathise as you’ve gone through a lot in only 17 months, and what you’ve gone through is really paradoxical (probably very bittersweet actually therefore harder to reconcile). Seventeen months is so recent, and while I’m sure you’ve regained a sense of untangling more of the memories/dynamics/understanding the circumstances etc, this time factor and a reminder have their own way of reigniting a lot of (unresolved) feeling. Please treat yourself kindly and gently, just in the here and the now, indulging yourself a little this weekend with pockets of nice little treats – I’m in no way referring to buying anything, it’s actually about sensate treats that don’t cost anything, like taking a bath for longer than usual, reading (if you’re into this), making sure you get to sit on the grass in the yard, or a park in the sun (if you’re into this) or savouring something delish that only You love but rarely eat/cook/have in the fridge. Just anything to make sure you’re doing/eating/feeling (tactile) pockets of something that YOU like and is time dedicated to and for YOU. These help buffer the way ahead and calm whatever’s running below, particularly when we’re grieving and we’re also dealing with other practicalities which (who) are very important to us. It’s small doses of ‘Me Time’ that’s most important when grief is still so present, and might be for some time. Also, it does let these emotions come to the surface slowly and more gently so that you can decide what/if you want to do with them.
Maybe that will mean trying to just live/be through them by accepting them, or ‘forgetting’ them (which is inevitably not possible, as much as we’d like to). Although reading between your lines, the family dynamic is also adding to the compounded feelings that I sense (actually I really ‘get’ this one, hence me sensing with you). Maybe seeking some help (if you’re not already doing so) would help you to gauge more about yourself in this likely uncomfortable paradox you’ll possibly find yourself in for some time (I want to tread gently here, as I really don’t want to offend your ideas of yourself, nor of how you’re handling anything – only You know where you’re at).
If you’re already seeing someone professional, then they’d be helping you to acknowledge your right to feel anger and, because it’s a complicated emotion, why it often gets suppressed/denied out of the fear of its power and uniqueness. But it actually has a very valid place in our spectrum of emotionality, yet tends to resurface unexpectedly, always somewhere else, some other time when we least want to deal with it, or know how to wrangle it effectively (for our sake and others’) let alone what it’s really related back to. It also has a way of not keeping us really present in the here and now because it locks us into a past in a time-frame that we don’t and won’t understand, nor want to, until we really start to look at ‘it’ – the emotion of anger – closer. The what and why of it, not just in a static tense but in relation/context to other emotions on a very wonderful ‘skills’ spectrum we have to be able to work through some of the most confronting things humans experience. I promise you, understanding this (that is, the what, how, where and why – it’s never really a ‘who’ issue, because we, as the individual in possession of an emotion are the ‘who’ in the equation) WILL bring you release from ‘it’. But speaking with someone qualified will step you through this connecting and fascinating process that initially appears uncomfortable.
A year, 2 years, 3 years, 5 years might induce us to believe time heals, but sometimes everything else (and everybody else) is ‘progressing’ when we’re standing still. It’s only when we stop to look at how we’re feeling right now (provoked by something or someone in the here and now, but most often in reflection to something from the past, yet completely relevant now) that we realise a lot about what we’ve not processed, because we don’t always know how to process. A professional WILL help develop your skills in how to process this.
I hope I haven’t overstepped any boundaries, it’s just I sense your want to understand and for others to understand too, but it still being so ‘unreal’ when you write it down hints that you’re still grieving… even when our days and nights, our life, have us believe we’re working through/have worked through the initial shock, grief, moving forward ideals (particularly these unspoken ideals that hang over us here in Australia), an incredibly written article or something on tv pops up reigniting the power of the emotional experience (Kate Fennessy’s a beautiful thought and feeling provoking writer!).
Big hugs to you Anon from a caring stranger here on Mamamia.
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Thanks Jane,
I appreciate your comments and suggestions for treading gently this weekend. You are right that this article has stirred up emotions that are always there – I have just become very good at looking like everything is fine. But the truth is that the grief can come over me like a wave and swallow me up. It feels like homesickness most of the time. I am homesick for my former life.
You may as well have told me my mother was going to lead the first expedition to Mars if someone had said this was how her life would end. And to leave me just when I needed her most, she was such a good mum and I was so excited to have her be an even more amazing grandmother – that’s why I am angry. Incandescent with rage sometimes. But it is a poisonous emotion and I am so afraid that I will somehow damage my own daughters life if I don’t get past those unforgiving feelings and go back to thinking of my mum the way I always did. She was kind, generous, funny and compassionate person who made a tragic mistake that has robbed us all of her amazing presence. Maybe if she had appreciated her own value, grabbed a little more me time as you suggest she could have broken those destructive thoughts that took hold that day. If,if, if…….
Thanks Jane xx
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I just wanted to echo so much of what Jane has said. The things that stand out to me are treating yourself gently and with care, and yes, the anger. God, I felt so much anger towards mum when she first died. And eleven years on I can see that now, and how it affected me.
The other thing that I think is so important is professional help. I had a counsellor (I think we all did off an on) for at least a year. I ended up seeing one later on when other issues arose when i became a (single) mother eventually. Anyway hold on Anon, and I know it sounds corny but also try and believe: you will find happiness again, you will feel ‘normal’ again; you will get there. Just take your time and as Jane said be kind to yourself.
Kate xx
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Hi Kate, it’s Jo Holley. I have very, very fond memories of your beautiful Mum. She was serene and intelligent. She was always interested in what I or any of my sisters were doing. I admired her a lot.
I will never forget Mum’s phone call to tell me that she was gone. My husband and I were living in NZ at the time and I was pregnant with our eldest daughter, who is now 11. To me, it was incomprehensible. How could this woman who had it all together take her own life? But I guess that is the crux of it all. She didn’t have it all together. And I don’t say that in a mocking way, I say it to illustrate that depression occurs often where you least expect. I still think that my Mum struggles to understand what happened. I don’t think this was something that this generation or circle of women had ever had to deal with before, especially to one of their own.
I wanted to thank you for sharing your story, it helped me to understand more about what happened and strengthens my admiration for your family (hello to them all x).
A good friend of mine lost her 13 year old daughter to suicide last year. I read your story earlier today and saw her this afternoon. I told her that I am sending her your link. Your writing is beautiful and I know she will appreciate your honesty.
So happy to hear how your life has progressed. Your Emi sounds wonderful. Your Mum would be so proud ….
Much love to you and the family xx
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thank you Jo, such a lovely message, still so hard to understand, but love those beautiful memories that we all have xx
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Thanks so much Jo. I remember your family fondly too – I think I used to come over for school drop off sometimes, and of course Katie was my best friend! I remember your Mum too, and always thinking everything in your house was so neat. I wished our house and garden were as neat as yours!
Anyway so touched by your comment. I never expected this, but I am so, so glad I have done it.
Kate x
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Thanks Kate and Jane. Yes, many happy, happy memories of those days. Mum and Dad moved from their house about 18 months ago – must have been about the same time as your Dad. If you think that one was neat Kate, you should see the new one! Puts me to shame every time!
Keep writing Kate, and keep remembering your Mum, especially all those happy times. Don’t let her death define her. She was far, far more beautiful than that. Take care XX
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Beautiful piece – in so many ways.
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Thankyou Kate for sharing your story, Im so sad to hear of your family’s loss. My dear Mum went through depression and anxiety last year, whilst I was overseas too, and I now realise that this could have been my story. I am going to make sure I ask anyone in that situation if they are feeling suicidal. I assumed that my Mum would tell me if she was but I see that we cannot rely on someone in that headspace to have the clarity of mind and courage to speak up….Thankyou xx
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Our problem as a society is we have made suicide so taboo, that who would want to come out and say ‘im feeling suicidal’. (Yes we have lots of initiatives etc in this country but as individuals, we have a long way to go.)
As hard as it is to ask (particularly to loved ones), we need to be able to say ‘Are you feeling suicidal?’, ‘Have you had thoughts about ending your life?’. These questions shoud be as normal as asking ‘are you feeling unwell’.
What a relief it can be for someone who is having these thoughts, to be asked straight out and not made to feel like talking about is so unacceptable and wrong. Sure, we may get a straight out ‘of course not’, but maybe they are hoping for someone to bring it up, as they may never have the courage to themselves.
Yes the answer may scare the sh*t out of us
but at least then we can start making plans to keep this person safe and get them the support they need.
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To anyone debating whether to get help – please do before it’s too late. Many mental illnesses don’t get better on own and besides, it beats feeling rotten and miserable in silence.Â
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I talk about this a lot on here, I guess because it’s a public forum & I want people to know that it can get better.
Earlier this year I attempted my life – also very soon after commencing Zoloft. One thing that I was told repeatedly was “there won’t be any effect for up to 6 weeks” which is only partially true. There is no THERAPUTIC effect for 4-6 weeks on average. There is a chemical effect within several hours of swallowing the drug. There has to be. You’re putting a chemical into your system.
For me – within 48 hours of swallowing the drug (& continuing to take it) I was a wreck. I had severe anxiety symptoms & had developed what could have mimicked OCD. I’d stopped sleeping. But the time I actually attempted my life I’d not slept for 5 days. I truly, truly was in a place of absolute despair. I couldn’t see ANY way out. I truly believed that by dying, I would fix all the issues that were so impossible to solve. I was terrified of myself.
I woke up about 2 days later in intensive care, still the Zoloft treatment was persisted & I ended up running away from hospital & trying again. I woke up again in intensive care. Spent some time on a medical ward & then in psych. I flatly refused to take medications at this point &, by some miracle, was backed up by poor liver & kidney function & the toxicology team not allowing me to take any medications. About a month after it all started, my head started feeling a bit clearer. After 2 months I’d started on a different medication which actually works for me.
Four months later & I’m thankful I woke up. I’m eternally indebted to my friends – who found me, later looked for me & found me & did everything they knew how to keep me in hospital when I was so unwell & who still support me. I owe my life to the paramedics & the hospital staff who saved my life. YOU CAN GET THROUGH THIS TOO. (I also blog my recovery – which has its ups & downs at http://stethescopesandivlines.wordpress.com)
However, I so strongly believe that psychotropic medication, when not used properly, has the capacity to be incredibly harmful. It is SO important that if you are prescribed psychotropics, that people around you know & are aware to watch for signs of worstening depression & that you follow up regularly with a psychiatrist (preferably) or an experienced GP, preferably with an interest in mental health. It blows my mind how many people I know who see GPs for a once off, get prescribed anti-depressants, don’t do any kind of talk-therapy & are left with a repeat prescription of drugs. As a consumer, you have the power to tell professionals what you want & it’s ok to say “I don’t feel comfortable starting a new medication & not following up with you for a month”. We know that in psychotropics – the risk of suicidal ideation or worstening depression can increase when the medication is commenced, increased, reduced or ceased (particularly if abruptly). Some people are incredibly sensitive to medications, others not so much, but there is no test for that & we don’t know who will react strongly to something & who won’t.
Please look out for your friends & don’t be afraid to ask for help. x
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Ella, it sounds like you’ve had a tough time and I’m really happy to hear that you’re better. Zoloft is usually the first go-to drug for GPs and it doesn’t suit everyone, there are more sophisticated and improved meds available. But if a doctor (particularly a specialist) recommends a particular drug, you really need to wait the suggest time for the therapeutic benefit to take effect. I write this from the pov of someone closely involved in mental health, and someone who has recurring bouts of depression.
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I’d been on Zoloft & Lovan before also; each time having severe side effects & discontinuation effects. I’m not denying that Zoloft works well for some people – but having a patient on any psychotropic drug REQUIRES regular assessment. It should be a routine part of mental heath care.
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And I absolutely agree with the waiting for it to work – and I’m not encouraging anyone not to take their medication. but people need to be aware that it CAN have side effects from Day 1 – and not to be told “nothing will happen for 4-6 weeks”. I also don’t agree with waiting for it to work if it’s very clear that the person is very rapidly deteriorating to a dangerous place – & that needs to be managed with a doctor.
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I too had a very very bad reaction to zoloft. Another medication worked well and 2 years later I am finally feeling normal again. But it took a team of psychiatrists removing me from my house and my 2 kids as I had given up. I have heard it works for some but it very nearly killed me and I never ever want to feel how I felt when on zoloft.
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A close friend of mine had similar experiences with Zoloft. Scary really! She wasn’t monitored after taking it initially, I wonder if that should be mandatory?
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It should be for all people on psychotropics, but particularly those in the high risk groups. We are not thorough enough with psychiatric care.
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Thank you Kate.
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I suffered from severe post natal depression and was suicial for a period of time. Thankfully I had a very supportive husband and was medicated to get me through it. I am still medicated, 3 years later but feeling much better and have managed to pick up my life. Although I hope to have another child one day, this post has reminded me about all I went through and I am afraid of potentially going through that again. I have two existing children to think about as well this time and do not want to risk their happiness for the sake of my own desire to have another child.
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Thank you so much for sharing. I too lost my Nana and, then six months later, my Pop to suicide. I was 13 at the time and, like you, believe I lost part of the happy innocence of my childhood over that six months.
My Nana was the last person I would have ever imagined suiciding – at 60-something she was a true lady – quiet, gentle and restrained. Our first, startling indication was when we found her overdosed on sleeping tablets one Saturday afternoon in November. Luckily, we found her in time. She recovered physically and returned home. She and my Pop lived at the end of our street so over those Christmas school holidays, I spent every every afternoon with them , thinking somehow that my daily visits would help fix everything. On my first day back at school (grade 9) my Nana insisted on seeing me dressed up in my school uniform before I headed off to school. That afternoon she jumped off one of the inner-city bridges in Brisbane. Six months later, my sad, broken Pop gassed himself in the garage of his home.
Twenty years later I still have moments of profound grief – grief that I couldn’t do more to save them, and grief that they never got to meet my beautiful husband or cuddle my gorgeous boys.
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I’m so sorry for your loss and to read of how it feels to suffer from this illness. I was wondering if anyone knows how much does depression run in families? My partner’s aunts and uncles have mild depression, and I worry that it will carry down to our children.
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I’m not a Dr or a medical proffesional, but depression can have a genetic component. I have depression, as have had many of my cousins, my mum, my brother and my Grandfather. But you know what? With treatment and understanding it does get better. Keep an eye on your kids but don’t stress about it.
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Yes I believe there is a genetic component and in our family an extremely strong one. My three siblings have mental illness (bi-bolar and schizophrenia) my mother suffered depression all her life (untreated) my dad’s father suicided and also an uncle. My father has mental health issues but has not been treated for same. My maternal grandfather was an alcoholic and drove into a train and took his life. My grandmother had a mental breakdown. I could go on on … aunty, cousins all died young from mental health and drug issues. Mental health and suicide awareness has to be talked about more and money has to be spent on these issues by the government as they will only increase with drug use and our frantic lifestyles causing depression. I suffer “blue days” and stay well away from alcohol and drugs as they only make things so much worse.
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Meant to add – early detection is the key. Back in my Mum’s day mental health issues were not talked about. I keep an eye on my son and talk with my nieces and nephews but not in an alarming way. I just tell them if they are feeling down for long periods of time go to the Beyond Blue website and check for symptoms and see your GP. Exercise, good nutrition, therapy, support and proper medication can go a long way to help.
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Thank you Kate for your beautifully written piece. As a community we need to listen to people whose lives have been impacted by suicide. Depression is on the increase and public health policy has to be dragged to the future by decent provision of mental health resources, at all levels.
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I’m so very sorry. I’m 42 years old with a beautiful family but am suffering through chronic PTSD. Two Friday’s ago I tried to kill myself. The police found me in time. I still think of it occasionally. I’m getting help now. I want to stress to you that (my personal opinion) if someone really wants to do it, they will not ring anyone for help. You should not regret ‘not being there for her’ at all. Again …very sorry for your loss.
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Hi Anonymous, I don’t know you but I’m very thankful that the police found you in time and that you are getting help. Please please please take care and please ask for help.
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Anon, before you do anything permanent please think of your kids. I’m sure you would never want them to go through what Kate and her family have. God be with you.
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I’m glad you were found. Hang in there. IT WILL GET BETTER. From one suicide survivor to another xx
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Your post comes at such a sad time for me…i feel your pain!
Its coming up to 12 years for me too (next week actually) My mum was 49 when she committed suicide. I was 25, my sisters 23 and 8! So at 25 I lost my mum and I became a mum to my little sister…
My mum never got to meet my beautiful daughters, she didn’t get to come to my wedding, see my home…ahh so many things she will never see or be a part of.
So many people talk about teen suicide, and rural suicide but people look at you funny when you say your mum killed herself…mums don’t do that. But they do! And without brave people like yourself talking about it stories just don’t get out there.
Thanks for sharing, even today 12 years later I am often not so brave. And still all these years later thinking about my mum makes me sad…I guess it might forever, because there will always be things I wish I could share with her.
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Hi Natasha – so nice to know there is someone else out there in this ‘category’ – good luck with the anniversary xx
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Thanks so much for this post. My brother has suffered depression for many years and we have times when we speak all the time and he shares alot with me and then long periods when I just don’t hear from him and he is difficult to connect with (and he only lives 5 min away). He has openly admitted to our family that he has considered suicide…I get frustrated and worry about him all the time which makes me at the same time mad at him as it’s hard to know how to help. I called him after reading your post and had a really good chat, just about everyday stuff but it ended with ‘I love you’…I feel that’s about all I can do, just let him know that I’m here and that he is loved…
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Oh Kate, what beautiful writing. I worked with one of your brothers in Canberra for a few years and therefore knew your sister as well. I remember vividly their grief when this happened. I am so sorry you all had to go through this, and that your mum felt she had no other options. I think you’re right, her pain in that exact moment, and the moments leading up to it must have been unimaginable, and the grief for you guys associated with imagining it would be horrendous….I can understand why you’ve all grieved in private. Good on you fr being able to write and talk about it. Hopefully just that one step will help someone else, and that is (one of) your Mums legacies.
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Sending a massive hug from my desk where i sit crying for your loss x
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Thanks so much for the lovely comments everyone. This has been really emotional for me but also cathartic and healing beyond what I expected. I’m really glad I posted this – even if just to open up the conversation about such a tough topic, and to do something positive with the memory of my beautiful Mum.
To those who have talked about suicide from a personal perspective thanks so much for your honesty and bravery. I think it’s a conversation we all need to be part of.
Kate xxx
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I rarely talk about my suicide attempt just over 12 months ago. But one thing I want people who have lost family and friends to suicide to know is that the pain is just too deep to keep going.
Over a period of time the depression becomes so debilitating, life is so black, so very painful that you just can no longer go on. Your thinking is not rational, strange thoughts fill your head. I’d see a bridge and think “that would be a great bridge to jump off”. Completely irrational, odd, thoughts.
It’s not a choice to die, but a necessity to stop the pain.
When I was found I’d stopped breathing and it took some time for my trained flatmate to get me breathing again. My heart stopped three times and I had about 10 brain seizures. I was in a coma for eight days.
It’s taken me over a year to start feeling like living again, just. I regret being found.
None of my friends supported me afterwards. My partner left me. People don’t care.
My oldest friend didn’t even reply to an email i sent her telling her of my hospitalisation.
All the “Are you Ok” type promotions and websites are meaningless. It’s all “talk”. Fluff. As a society we are incredibly selfish and self obsessed. And very very judgmental.
That’s why people continue to suicide. I’ve had clinical (vastly different to situational depression) since a child. As the years go on my resilience and hope for the future lessen. I’m tired of the pain.
Before my suicide attempt I had four years of extreme hardship and loss, more than anyone should suffer. But the past year since my suicide attempt have been very hard, still depressed and suffering from memory loss a side effect of my attempt.
Once I was critical of people who suicided, I thought them selfish. But I now know the truth and that is that the pain is too intense to keep living.
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Although I havent attempted suicide I have been very close many many times. I know exactly what you mean in your whole post.
I have heard countless times that someone will help me or be there to talk to me but it doesnt happen.These people dont check up on you (maybe they assume the depression has gone away-i dont know). I think society is still very naive about this illness and unless you or someone very close to you has it then it isnt understood. The only person who has been there as much as he possibly can is my boyfriend. I put that to the fact that not only he loves me very much but his sister has attempted suicide many times. He is an incredibly strong character and I feel guilty for putting him through this.
I am on anti-depressants (3rd type now) and seeing a psychiatrist. I used to judge people who committed suicide but I can understand now why they did it. Unless you have felt it you will never understand how dark and disgusting this illness can be. Coming up to 4 years with severe depression. When I am ok life is nice but it turns very quickly.
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Dear Louisec, please do not feel sooo alone.People do care, I care. Is there some way I can support you, even through facebook messaging or email. Perhaps others could join me in this. I know you have not given up Louisec, or you would not have posted here.
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Thank you Vanessa. I’ve gotten through the past year and if you met me you’d think I was a relatively successful ok person. People with serious depression are usually expert at hiding it.
I really just wanted to help people affected by suicide understand why it happens.
And also to realise that it’s the ground work – hospitals and doctors – which need the funding, support and training. They are what will prevent suicide not cute, fluffy promotions or depression websites.
Or even fences at Vaucluse – waste of money. I’ll just jump off a Bondi cliff.
There is so much misunderstanding of suicide ….and of depression too. Until these issues are addressed suicide will continue in its very high numbers.
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I completely agree, how is it ok not to have enough beds for people with severe depression and suicidal ideas? I really think that if the money spent on “cute, fluffy promotions or depression websites” was spent on staffing , community workers or beds we would be better off. When you overhear doctors and nurses still saying that people with depression who present in hospital are “attention seekers” you know we still have a long way to go. Of course they are seeking attention, you wankers!!! These people are seriously ill!
Please keep posting Louisec and let us know how you are getting on.
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Yes Vanessa! I work in health and when I hear other staff taking this view that wanting attention is akin to committing a criminal offense I want to shake them hard (which I don’t of course).
It’s okay to want attention for physical pain but not mental and emotional pain … what the?
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The websites helped me, and the visibility helped. Doesn’t make it better, or easier – of course not. But it helped. I find the cheery orange signs at the Gap a bit depressing, to be honest. Not sure they help.
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Not to get all psycho-analytic (because am not a big fan), but psycho-analysts often say that suicidal patients elicit huge feelings of anger in carers. Often people like nurses are not taught to be aware of these feelings and process them properly. Not excusing it at ALL (because every patient has rights to adequate care, and your feelings are your own to deal with) but it’s an explanation for why otherwise caring professionals get so hard with suicidal patients. The black dispair extremely confronting and takes enormous amounts of energy.
I worked in a system when, if a patient attempted suicide or was threatening, someone would ALWAYS ask “so, how are you feeling?” And so we would help each other process the anger and not let it spill out into our work.
But nothing, nothing, nothing excuses an unprofessional approach to patient care.
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That could very well explain the reaction of staff … food for thought … thank you anon.
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Thanks anon. My brother has been dealing with his depression for years, and we as a family work with him by giving him as much support as we can. He’s doing brilliantly now on medication and also “lifestyle management” as we jokingly refer to it – exercise, diet, meditation, etc. One of the hardest parts of his illness (for me!) is the reaction it stirs up in me. I have to really manage my own anger when he’s at his worst. There is nothing I can do if he chooses to take his own life, and that loss of control makes me terrified and furious. He has assured me he will not commit suicide, and I believe him. But when things are dark, that fear and anger rear up time and again.
I find talking about it helps, and so does thinking about his circular and black conversations as coming from the depression, not from the funny, wacky, intelligent brother I love. But I have always felt so guilty about this reaction – thanks for pointing out that it’s not unusual.
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Thanks Louisec, I really appreciate the insights. There’s a lot here to think about and process, and it’s so emotional! But I wanted to thank you for being so honest and open.
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that is quite eye opening louise – thanks for posting it. keep posting here at least???
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The constant pain of depression can sap your soul Louisec but your soul is still there inside you … if you do nothing else today, you have put into words what depression is really about and that’s a fantastic achievement to speak for so many people. Love yourself a little today for writing your post, you freekin’ well deserve it xo
PS Happy to join with vanessa and talk to you via email or facebook
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Hi Louisec… you sound so sad, I just wanted to give you a virtual *hug* – a really big one. I’ve never faced the road you have, but I hope you find peace in your heart and that it’s just around the corner. xx
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I too suffer from clinical depression and have for many, many years… Don;t regret being found. I know it seems like people didnt care, but it probably just hurt too much to see you in pain. people dont know what to do with mental illness. they dont have the capacity for that kind of understanding.
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I can’t even begin to imagine to know your pain Louisec but I only hope you can see and feel this virtual emotional support that you have on this post. I too wish I could give you a hug and tell you that it is all okay, but of course I can’t. What I can say is that I honestly, truly believe that people do care. Your comment about wanting people to understand depression and suicide is so important and this could be something you could do to make a difference that others can’t do because they don’t understand.
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You are not alone. I have clinical depression as well although it has never been so bad that I seriously considered suicide. I can’t know how bad things are for you but within the MM community there are many people who really care for you. Please keep trying to get help. I know that you’re not likely to talk to someone who you don’t even know but if you do need to, please email MM and ask them for my email address. You do not deserve to die.
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Hey Louisec…
Hugs and kisses to you my sweet sweet girl. I have suffered depression in the past and when I get PMT it can get really really bad. I live by myself and I sometimes get this overwhelming feeling of loneliness. Absolute fear where I think suicide is the only way. I’m 37 and will be turning 38 in January and I have no partner or child and that scares the hell out me. I feel as though everyone is loved up and kiddied up except me. We live in a very marriage kids centric society and I feel very alone at times and very despondent about things.
I know what you mean about people not seeming to care. People can be very insular and absorbed. They have very much their own lives and familes and don’t seem to REALLY care. Alot of people don’t seem to cope very well when things get really bad. I was in an absolute flood of tears a couple of weeks ago and I rang friend and she was fantastic though…at least I have one friend I can rely on
Can you keep us posted on how your doing? I agree with Vanessa’s idea
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I just wanted to add my voice to this discussion, because I am struggling with severe depression at the moment and know the feelings you and others have described so well.
The last six weeks have been a living hell. I am sure that some of the campaigns and services promoted in the media are very helpful to individuals suffering from mild to moderate depression.
Severe depression is a different beast altogether, where just being awake or cognizant is unbearable. Your whole body and being feels unendurably horrible. You want to end being awake, aware, feeling, thinking. The only escapes (it seems) are things like intoxication, sleep, or, eventually, death.
And you just hate yourself.
I’m not sure what the answer is at times like this, but it helps so much to know that somebody else out there feels some of the same things. It helps to know that you are not totally alone in your feelings.
Depression is incredibly isolating; you feel like an outsider to life and everybody else in it.
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I’m so sorry to hear this. I also attempted earlier this year & stopped breathing – I’m very lucky my friend found me. a lot of people have said “you shouldn’t have survived, you’re very lucky to have survived. It’s not your time to go” & I’m starting to believe it. You’ve been through hell & CLEARLY it is not your time to go. That you survived at all is amazing. I’m glad you’re still here, even if I’m just an avatar of a pair of feet on the internet x
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Oh, God. Crying at work. I wish I could hug you for a week.
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Kate thank you for being so brave and sharing your heartbreaking story.
For everyone reading this post I would highly recommend the ASIST course (applied suicide interventions skills training). I have just finished two days training so what a timely post. Its like a ‘first aid’ course and is suitable for everyone. It was brilliant. It helps everyday people recognise and intervene before it’s too late. it’s designed so that it doesn’t just have to be specialists, psychologists, doctors who can help. We all can. It makes suicide less taboo, which is half the problem. We feel we can’t talk about it. My heart goes out to everyone on here who is sharing their pain and loss. x
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Kate, so sorry to read that and to all the Fenessey family for your terrible loss – we went to the same school, and yeah, back then depression did not get talked about or acknowledged – i look back now and think of mums that must have had some post natal depression, leading into a longer term depression and I feel sad that i didnt know what to do, and in fact, i dont think society knew what to do. The only tiny silver lining is that we are doing better in helping people today. Wont help the Fennessey family or hundreds like them i guess…
ps – kate, good writing, mrs hall would be proud of you
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Thank you for sharing. The thought of our parents or children suiciding is so awful. Your story and phone numbers just may help some one else. Love to you and your family.
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Kate, thank you for sharing your story.
I have a question, you say in your last paragraph that your family don’t talk about your mothers death and you all grieved in private and you could not really help each other. Do you think that by all keeping it in and not making sure each of your family members is ok, you are perpetuating the same problem that your mum felt, not wanting to trouble anyone with how she was feeling and not getting things out in the open?
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Hi Jacki. Yes, this is an area that has troubled me for years. And I do worry that we have continued the stigma about suicide by not talking about Mum – but it’s hard. That’s all I can say. And we try – but there’s so much pain, and there are no answers with suicide. The minute you start digging around it – there’s just more pain.
I have also learnt that you can’t make people talk, or make them grieve the way you want them to. I think we all keep an eye on each other, and we all care, it’s just so hard.
With my own family though, and for me personally, part of the reason I shared this post is because I believe we have to talk about suicide as a community. But even with that belief it’s been hard to take that step. I talked about Mum’s death to my daughter for the first time only recently. She is 8. And it was bloody hard. I blogged about it earlier this year.
http://writehub.blogspot.com/2011/01/yesterday.html
It has taken me 11 years to get to this point. I guess at the end of the day, there’s no guide book for grief, and we just got by the best we could.
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Oh Kate, I wish I could give you a hug. What a terrible story, beautifully told.
Last week a 17 year old girl in our community killed herself, apparently after a trial VCE exam which she thought she had done poorly in. She was worried about her exams and her future; she clearly couldn’t see a way out. I didn’t know her but good friends at my kids’ school do- my friend rang to tell me and warn me that my son would probably hear it from hers. He did. He came home, and was full of questions. He is only 12, and my daughter- who was listening- is only 9, but it didn’t seem too early to talk to them about what had happened; to tell them they could always talk to us, that there is ALWAYS a solution less final than death. God, I hope they were listening. Much love to you. xxx
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Thanks Kylie xxx
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Thanks for sharing your story.
My dad committed suicide when I was 23. I’m so sad that he never got to walk me down the aisle, or meet his beautiful granddaughter. He had a gambling problem that I didn’t know about. I’m pleased that some of our politicians are finally trying to do something about the pokies.
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I wanted to be anon for this but cannot work out how to do it, so here goes; my husband was diagnosed with severe depression in 2004. He is still alive and is working again now but it has taken years. He was suicidal and was sectioned twice. Why is he still alive? I don’t know, but I think it is because I was able to get the carer pension and look after him and was able to be an advocate for him, when he couldn’t speak for himself. We were also lucky in our GP and in our local community health centre. If you are going through this, you have to get mean; when health professionals say they will call back and don’t, then call and keep calling on behalf of your loved one. If hospital staff start mouthing platitudes, challenge them, they don’t know your family member, you do, get nasty if you have to. If they heave a sigh and call you names under their breath then you are doing a good job, be a problem for them on behalf of your loved one. Don’t say I can’t quit work to look after so and so because you can. We lived on the pension for a few years and had no money and consequently no private medical benifits after a while, but we managed. Depression is a serious illness and you would quit work to look after a family member with cancer but some seem to think that it is “only” depression. Finally, please do not write off Electro Convulsive Therapy if all else fails. It is miraculous sometimes. A psychiatrist who treated my husband was a rural health specialist and he never lied to me about how much danger we were in. I still get a funny feeling if I don’t know where my husband is, or he is late home from work, I know that will never go away. But I tried my best and that is all anyone can do. Also, if this has happened in your family, or if there is depression anywhere in the family; keep an eye on the younger ones. Depression is our “family curse”.
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I dropped lots of work hours to home school my son through two years of high school while he had depression. I took him to therapy appointments, doctors, etc and, while I lost a lot of income I don’t regret it for a minute. It’s not much fun trying to teach a child with depression and incredibly time-consuming. I was too scared to leave him alone anyway and other family members stayed with him if I was at work. He was never, ever alone. It takes a lot of organising though.
Depression is my family’s “curse” also but my son now has a realistic view of his propensity to fall into depression and to take steps at the first signs. I’m hoping this early intervention will save him years of torment. He is doing extremely well now
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Vanessa, you are a champion. What an excellent post, thank you.
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This is spot on. I know people are well-meaning when they say ‘help is out there’ and that’s true, but sometimes it can be bloody hard to get and you have to fight to get help and to maintain it, something that very depressed people often can’t do. When it looks like they are being non-compliant and have given up on themselves despite all the help that is apparently readily available, it’s often the case that the help is not that readily available for some one who finds it difficult to get out of bed.
I was mildly depressed after having my second child and was sent away from my GP for not being depressed enough, put on hold at the psychologists and told there was a 3 week wait for treatment. Fair enough I was only mildly depressed but it can veer into incredibly depressed quickly enough. And often people who are severely depressed will still hide it rather than speak up. It’s really important to talk about the practicalities of what to do in order to get help and how persistent you often need to be, either for yourself or on behalf of your loved one, because although we hear a lot about all the help that is available, it’s not always that easy.
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I stopped reading when I got to zoloft.
I too suffereed insane suicidal thoughts only after a few days of taking zoloft.
I spent 5 weeks in hospital recovering. I honestly believe it has fried my brain. After 2 years of intense therapy and hospitalisations I still don’t feel 100%.
I’m so so sorry that you had to go through this.
My father has tried to commit suicide so many times now I have lost count.
I have done my grieving and we have all tried our hardest to get him the help he so desperately deserves. His demon is alcohol, which feeds on his depression. He refuses to get help for either.
I feel for what your mother must have been feeling to do what she did. help is out there and I just pray that someone reading this makes up their mind to help someone who they might think needs it.
You can find that happy girl dancing in the street again, she is there, she has just been hurting. Find her, for you, and for your mother.
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Thank you so much Donna – and I’m so sorry for what you have gone through/ are going through. The word ‘Zoloft’ stops me cold too. I hope things improve with your Dad – I don’t know what to say. That’s what’s so hard about all this.
Also thanks for that last comment. I think this is something I thought was always lost, but you’ve helped me to see that she’s still inside me. Incredibly touched and crying – again! x
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Zoloft nearly killed me. I truly believe it was THE major influence in my suicide attempts earlier this year. I have never felt so low as when I was on that drug. I think it’s something that MUST be prescribed with extreme precaution. It has the potential to be very, very dangerous.
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A friend of mine with two small daughters committed suicide earlier this year, until that point no one outside her immediate family had any idea she was depressed, she was very high functioning and always ready with a smile. She had just started anti-depressants (not sure what type) two weeks prior to committing suicide. It seemed like a very big leap from the kind of depression she had been suffering to suicide, and I can’t help wondering whether the medication had something to do with it. Maybe she was expecting to get much better than she did and despaired when that didn’t happen, or maybe the medication had an adverse effect. This is not to say that people should not take medication when they need it, but it is clearly something that needs to be treated with extreme caution.
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I am so sorry for your loss, and for those two little girls
xx
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Such a touching story.
Thank you for your brave expression. I have never known this grief personally but friends of mine have just lost a son at a young age to suicide (at any age is tragic) and I have seen there grief and the amount of people it touches. I believe it would have been something that this boy would have lived to regret if he had just been able to do that…live. It is so sad that some people just find living to be the hardest part of life.
May your mum be forever peaceful
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I have had 2 uncles and a family friend commit suicide. Although I have been through depressive episodes myself I still find it hard to fully imagine the level of despair it would take to actually go through with suicide. But the shockwaves it creates for those left behind are something more familiar to me. Its like a bomb of pain and shock that goes off.
I don’t have the answers of course, but I sense that if only we could believe more in our right to be well, in our essential nature of wellbeing, we might just pause for a life-saving minute to say “hey, this is not normal. I need help.’ Its exactly why I meditate daily. To remind myself that my thoughts and emotions are not ME, and that there’s always a peaceful place deep inside.
I know suicide is a complicated, multi-faceted issue, but I still think it would be a real benefit if meditation was taught in schools or by parents to promote good daily, lifelong mental health practices.
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Meditation is like nature’s form of valium. So good for promoting emotional and mental wellbeing.
If only we could catch people in that terrible moment where they decide that life has nothing left for them anymore .. if only.
My much-loved grandfather committed suicide in his 60′s and two of my son’s friends recently. The news does hit you like a bomb.
Beautifully written Kate xo
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Dear Kate,
I’m so sorry you lost your Mom and all that you and all those impacted by her suicide have endured. Suicide literally turns your world upside down and nothing is ever the same again. You mention everyone grieved in their own way and independently, that often happens too and I’ve come to know there is no right or wrong way to grieve, only what’s right for you.
I’m so glad you shared your very personal story of losing your Mom this way and I believe our personal stories are one of the best ways to educate others about a topic not many want to discuss still to this day. By sharing your story, you will help others know they’re not alone and may also give them the strength to tell their stories. Loss survivors are some of the most incredibly resilient, loving, caring people I’ve had the privilege to know. I too lost my late husband Rob to suicide in December 2000. I am now a very passionate advocate for suicide prevention, tell my story whenever I can, have a Facebook page “Suicide Shatters” where I post about suicide, prevention and mental illness to help raise awareness, dispel stigma, educate others and reduce suicides.
Thank you for sharing, and many thanks to Mamamia for sharing your story too.
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Thanks Barb, I’ll check out your page. I’m planning on attending the suicide awareness day – I think April? – next year with my daughter. I am terrified about it, I will admit. But I know at the same time that I need to go. Great to know again that there are other people in the same boat.
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Kate,
My sincere condolences to you and your family.
My dad commited suicide when I was 19, it was the 25th November 2004, I had moved out of home with my then boyfriend and was putting up the Christmas tree because I wanted to start my own family tradition. The phone rang at 830pm it was my mum who was hysterical “your father is dead, they found his car gutted from fire, the police are here I have to go”
I was numb I said to my boyfriend ‘dads dead’ im going home, he looked at me and the asshole said “told you it was bad luck to put the tree up early, I cant come ive got an exam tomorrow”
Nothing ever takes the pain away or the feeling that you had when you found out, somehow it just gets easier to deal with and you manage to remember them for the amazing person that they were.
All the best
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Oh my gosh… I can’t believe he said that.
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Neither can I, its one of those things I will never forget. However im not surprised hes a complete douche bag who only cares about himself x
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Thanks Kate.
This struck a real cord with me. My family are currently trying to deal with my aunt, who has chronic depression and tried to commit suicide (for the second time) this week after an argument with her eldest daughter.
While she has been in hospital we have discovered a lot of things she has hidden from us, because she know it is wrong.
The doctors say her illness is not bad enough (attempting suicide is not enough?) to keep her in hospital any longer but, with events that have happened since she was hospitalised, we are terrified she will try again.
At all costs we want to avoid the pain you speak of, particularly for her children who are still young.
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Hi anon,
Does she have private health insurance? there are private hospitals who can take her for longer than the public health system. I too had a suicidal Aunt with young children. She is schitzophrenic and my mother had to have her children removed from her for their own safety. Horrible, but necessary. She is better now, but not with out years of help and intervention. Best of luck for your family.
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No, no health insurance. Looking after herself like that has never been a big priority and money is extremely tight. And the doctors don’t believe she is ‘bad enough’ for any other kind of facility.
Unfortunately removing the kids is looking likely at this stage.
We are all crossing our fingers something will change in the future and she will be on the road to recovery.
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If you’re concerned you can apply for guardianship. If she can’t look after her kids & they’re being removed, it sounds like you’ve got quite a strong case. If she’s under the care of the public guardian, it’s easier to get her admitted than through crisis services. She can appeal, but I guess it’s worth a try, especially if you’re really worried about her safety.
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It is my understanding that private hospitals will only take you if you are a voluntary patient anyway, so even if she had private health insurance, if she wanted to discharge herself, (to suicide) she could.
My twin brother has schizophrenia, and when he is really sick he doesn’t understand that he needs to be in the hospital, so is never able to be treated by the private system, which can not commit him.
The mental health system is in such a poor state, turning so many needy people away. Those of us, who know how broken it is, need to keep telling the rest of the population, so that everyone will demand that our politicians to spend more money on it.
Good luck.
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^ all of that is correct, however people under the public guardian can access private hospitals & cannot be discharged until the doctors & guardian are happy with that plan…so they are technically scheduled, but not in the conventional way.
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i can’t imagine the pain that you and your family have gone through because depression and the things it can make people do are quite difficult to understand.
beautifully written piece.
http://xxxmissvxxx.wordpress.com
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My 45 year old brother took his life just over a year ago. Your description of the effects on those left behind are bang on. The constant wonder of what was going through their mind in those last moments is torture. Thanks for your candour and courage. And for sharing this with us.