There isn’t enough room in this newspaper to list all the things I don’t know. There’s not even enough room in Wikipedia which – if if were an actual book – would take you 123 years to read.
Recently though, there’s been an explosion of people with a wildly inflated sense of their own intelligence. Suddenly, everyone’s an expert.
Me, not so much. I understand how little I know about lots of things. For example, I know less about science than scientists. I know less about medicine than doctors. I know less about tax than my accountant, less about cooking than Donna Hay and less about animals than Bondi Vet.
There’s no shortage of genuine experts who have degrees, qualifications and years of experience in their fields. Having access to Google does not make you an expert, nor does having a website or watching a youtube video. These things simply make you someone with an Internet connection.
“Everyone’s an expert today,” confirms social researcher Neer Korn “partly because we feel we need to be. We receive kudos for proclaiming our definitive knowledge to others and we compete to be the first to share facts, articles and videos.”
But reading some articles doesn’t put you on par with a scientist and here’s where it can become dangerous.
A few years ago, I worked with a lovely guy who had left school at 16. When his wife had their first child, he ‘did his research’ and they decided not to vaccinate their daughter. At the time, everyone around him insisted it was safe (and vital) but he was adamant. “I’ve read a lot about this and I watched this amazing video,” he insisted, “Vaccinations are just a way for big companies and the government to make money”.
Where do you start arguing the extreme illogic of that? Not here; I’d need more space and a wheelie bin full of rescue remedy. Because while I accept my former co-worker was a thoughtful person who meant well, I’m floored by the extraordinary assumption that he knew better than every scientist in the world – not to mention Bill and Melinda Gates who are spending hundreds of millions of their own dollars funding vaccination programs in third world countries to eradicate killer diseases like malaria.
What on earth could make a civilian believe his Google ‘research’ is superior to decades of science? Is it arrogance?
“The Internet has made expertise a mouse click away,” says Neer Korn. “And a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Just ask any GP who has to contend with self-diagnosing patients, determined they can identify their prognosis and treatment. They address them more as colleagues than patients, because they place their Internet search on par with the doctor’s years of expertise.”
Doctors really do live this every day. Says one of my friends who is a medical specialist: “You find yourself getting into these exhausting debates with patients who insist they’ve read something that goes against what you’re telling them. Unless you’re highly experienced, it can be extremely difficult to judge the credibility of the information you find online.”
Which brings me to the farcically named Australian Vaccination Network (AVN) which, despite its official-sounding name, is in fact a group of civilian self-styled ‘experts’ who campaign vigorously and at times misleadingly (according to findings by the HCCC) against vaccination both on their website and in the free talks they give around Australia, sometimes to expectant parents at pre-natal classes.
While publicly pedaling its anti-vaccination message, the AVN cleverly make it sound like there are ‘two sides’ to the vaccination debate. In fact there aren’t two sides and there is no debate. On one hand there is science and there is no other hand.
Because no link between vaccination and autism has ever been found. None. Ever. What has been conclusively proven is that while they are not 100% perfect, vaccines are the best and only way to protect babies and children from diseases like whooping cough that can kill them.
And the personal choice argument? Well, it’s a bit like arguing that driving your car drunk is a personal choice. You see, the lives of babies too young to be vaccinated depend on herd immunity in the rest of the community. So the choice made by that man I worked with didn’t just affect his family. His well-intentioned yet ill-informed decision has the potential to harm my family. And yours.
Watching (or even producing!) a Youtube video with some cherry-picked statistics set to rousing orchestral music is not the same as having a university degree or having your research findings peer reviewed.
I’m baffled by this growing sense that everyone has the right – indeed the obligation – to challenge facts that have been established scientifically, independently and repeatedly over years, even decades.
“Do your research!” is the common faux clarion call of these so-called ‘experts’. These exhortations are usually accompanied by a helpful list of links to similarly skewed, scientifically baseless articles that back up their claims. It’s easy to mislead people with random graphs and alarmist statements.
I’m certainly not suggesting we become a flock of sheep or suspend critical thought. But I don’t need to ‘do my research’ before I vaccinate. Or before I accept that the earth is round and that gravity exists. Scientists far smarter than me have already done that research and the verdict is unanimous, thanks.
Have you run into any Google experts in your life? Or maybe you’re one yourself?
Please take time to read (and share) this link – 9 vaccination myths busted. With science






Comments
1,122 Comments so far
Thank you for this article! Some people drive me nuts by claiming to know things that scientists have evidence against. I’m trained in research so I know what to look for and what is credible and what is not. It drives me nuts when ppl tell me something is a proven fact ( something NO scientist would ever say) it’s usually about alternative medicine. Then get all huffy when I share what I have researched. I am always polite and explain how the research process works and why I choose to believe the sources I do. But only if they won’t stop pushing me to say they are right. Then I get the whole ” oh you think u know everything and u think you’re better than us” thrown in my face. So now I’m forced to just nod and smile and say oh ok how interesting, while they are allowed to tell me I’m wrong with so many things. Why do some people have such a chip on their shoulder about being right? I’ve always found the mark of an intelligent person is their ability to realize they know barely anything and to ask questions and learn and not just believe the first thing they hear. It does seem to me that more and more people are claiming they know so much and are right about everything because they “reaserched” it. Yeah google doesn’t count! Great jumping off point but only to lead to more reputable articles. Sigh…..this is a massive pet peeve of mine! Sorry for the rant!
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I reckon there are probably one thing any scientist would regard as a proven fact: you need water and air to sustain life.
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I have moved with my hubby and 2 kids to the UK where their vaccination schedule is different to Aus. My now 17 month old had to have a couple of extra shots to bring her in line here, but they don’t immunise against Chicken Pox here. As we will be heading home within a couple of years i asked the vaccination nurses to see if they can get some vaccine for her, which they can – and on the NHS! anyway, the debate here is that the medical community think thatby immunizing babies, more older people are getting shingles as they are not being exposed to the virus over their life spans which they think acts as s booster. I am still going to give it to her, but I thought this was an interesting take. Not sure if that has come up in Aus.
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i heard anecdotally from a friend here who is a consultant, that they are looking at both chickenpox and rotavirus to be added to the vaccination schedule – but it’s such a massive undertaking in the UK, and there is still some debate as you say (which in many countries has been had and decided, like Australia and the US). I don’t think Rotavirus is even licensed in the UK yet (although it is in most of the rest of Europe) Lucky you getting the vaccination on the NHS, I had to pay fullprice for mine!
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From what I understand about shingles is that only people who have had chicken pox in the past can get it, when the virus enters the childs body, part of the virus stays in the body over many many years, and can re emerge so to speak later in life and become shingles. Therefore if a person has never been exposed to chicken pox they cannot get shingles.
Also shingles can be triggered by stressfull situations like moving house, divorce, illnesses etc, so it would be difficult to predict who will get shingles in the future and who will not. Cheers
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First of all I’d like to say that I generally don’t read newspapers but I do enjoy your column and quite like your style of writing. Your most recent column – “Delusions can be contagious” – struck a nerve with me and I felt compelled to write to you. I’ll start by saying that I wholeheartedly agree with your statement that “…having access to Google does not make you an expert, nor does having a website or watching a youtube video…” There’s no denying that a little bit of knowledge truly is a dangerous thing. And I can understand the frustration of well-meaning doctors and medical professionals who have to deal with “self-educated” patients who have sought out independent information regarding their particular illness/es.
But I feel that dismissing these people and their views as arrogant/deluded is a dangerous mistake. I acknowledge that there exists a number of these “self-educated” people who are so caught up with their own “discoveries” that they do arrogantly give themselves an elevated sense of self-importance, and I vehemently oppose this attitude.
However, I truly believe that there exists a number of passionate, dedicated and critical thinking individuals who want nothing more than truth, even if this flies in the face of accepted norms. The truth does not fear investigation, and never has. Shouldn’t we encourage people to think critically and arrive at their own understanding of issues? Even if that means that they take an “indirect” or “occultist” or “spiritual” or whatever path to arrive at their conclusions? Was is not Socrates that said that “The unexamined life is not worth living?” I don’t recall Socrates making specific mention of science as the only path of self-examination.
We claim that we live in a free society where free speech is practised and celebrated, yet I get the impression time and time again that it’s considered taboo to question the establishment. Why is one considered arrogant for refusing to swallow accepted norms? Why is one only taken seriously if they’ve got an official title or piece of paper to their name? Why are people so quick to take the defensive? Why are people so scared of any idea that challenges them/their lives? History has taught us that most of the scientific theories we currently accept as fact were originally ridiculed.
These “truth-seekers” don’t assume that they know better than every doctor in the world. They don’t assume they know better than the mass of scientific knowledge accumulated over the centuries. All they assume is their right as a human being to explore and understand the universe around them. At least the “crazy ones” have taken the time to evaluate what it is exactly that they believe, even if they still have a long way to go on their journey.
I am certainly no expert on vaccinations, and I’m sure scientific research will always be able to “prove” how beneficial childhood vaccination is, but to blindly follow science, in fact to blindly follow anything, demonstrates a weak faculty of thought, and I don’t believe this mentality should be promoted. You strike me as an intelligent woman, and I feel that we’d both agree that a good dose of critical thinking certainly wouldn’t go astray in our modern society.
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This is an excellent response to this article. What I really get from Mia’s article is that we should just ‘trust the experts’ and not question anything. A ‘nothing to see here – go back to sleep and don’t ask questions – especially difficult ones’ approach to life. She promotes ignorance and writes a fluffy blog with nothing of any real substance in it. She tells us nothing new, her articles never leave you informed of anything and she has the gall to presume she can tell us how to think; what to think; and how often to think. And of course what subjects we are allowed to think about.
Funnily enough I am under the care of a specialist who happens to be very senior in his field and who is a highly intelligent but humble person. I ask him questions all the time (and I quote the internet), which he loves because he is sick of dealing with drones that have no interest in their body or the illness that afflicts them. He is desperate for patients that are not asleep at the wheel. He is intelligent enough to know that informed people are invested in their futures and actually want to get better. He is a rarity and far from bagging those of us that want to know the truth and play an active role in their health, many doctors could take a leaf out of his book. Oh – and he uses google all the time.
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Dee, I too have been seeing a number of specialists, senior ones as well. They are happy to answer any questions I have, but for me, putting faith in the person treating me has been the biggest thing. I prefer to see someone I can trust and relax around. Serious illness is enough of a stress in itself. Dr google has never helped me out that way, or peer reviewed journals either.
I’ve found personally, it can turn into a weird compulsion too, googling your condition.
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I blindly trusted my specialist too. His name is Dr Graeme Reeves.
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Did I say I blindly trust? I’ve always believed in the 2nd opinion if the first isn’t appropriate etc.
BTW, my current specialist is Dr Charles Teo. Nuff said.
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Oh, for the record, I’m sorry if he was a doctor of yours. Conduct like that is unacceptable in any field, but they’re not all like that, you know that.
I’d think if you suffered at his hands, it goes some way to explaining why you distrust the medical field.
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I think this highlights an interesting point that there exist certain dedicated medical professionals that are more than happy to “put their science on the line” and exchange ideas/theories with their patients, even if only on a speculative level. Why is there not more of this? I imagine that most medical staff are overworked and under-resourced, so on a practical level I can understand why this sort of doctor-patient-exchange isn’t feasible, but why not on a theoretical/philosophical level? Why the defence shield?
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I’m no anti vacer ,in fact I’m prob about as far from being a hippy than someone could be, however my child has just been diagnosed with autism and while I don’t blame his vaccinations, it does make me wonder if there is anything to it. I have been doing alot of reading about autism and about the way their immune systems react. I have to admit I have a slight queasy feeling about it now- its possible that an immunisation could trigger an immune response in a very small part of the population who happen to be susceptible in the first place. Only 1% of the population are autistic, and obviously this is a risk v benefit debate. However Mia, I would challenge you to write with such conviction if you had an autistic child and then had a subsequent child to consider vaccinating. It’s easy to judge when you are not in my shoes.
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Anonymous, my condolences to you – you’ve a hard row to hoe. But perhaps this article will set your mind at rest about vaccination. Autism is present much earlier, just not yet manifest. http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110609/full/news.2011.359.html
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Maybe you should read ‘Dr Mary’s Monkey’ by E T Haslem as it highlights how the scientists you obviously have utter blind faith in, can get it soooo wrong…
Oh and by the way, the medical profession has been built on withholding information from people. It gives the doctors complete power over their patients. Of course they are going to hate this information age when anybody can download information on class actions against drugs, number of drug deaths, new treatments for diseases and medical studies on causes of diseases. There is an information war going on across the board and those that were previously in complete control of the information, are now losing that war. They had better get used to the new reality however, as there is no going back to ignorance. People are hooked on information and want to make informed decisions now more than ever. And to be honest, given what has gone on in the medical field, you can’t blame them.
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What are you talking about. I have friends that are doctors in the best hospital in France and they have better things to do that care about information. They care about helping people, that’s all. Why the need to live with such a conspiracy theory that’s ridiculous.
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Did I blame your buddies in France? No. I am talking about the fact that a lot of information is coming out now on things that have occurred in the past with regard to science and the medical profession. If you are ignorant to this, that is not my fault – maybe you should read more. People are more aware than ever and rightly so. The fact you think investigative journalism is conspiracy theory demonstrates just how ignorant you are.
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On behalf of many people I know who are medical professionals, I am phenomenally insulted in your opinion of them and their profession.
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Again – did I blame your buddies. No! Did I have a go at every doctor, nurse and scientist walking the Earth? No! But I am phenomenally insulted by your obvious lack of knowledge of what I am talking about. If you don’t understand what somebody is talking about, then don’t comment.
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Actually, you completely generalised about the entire medical profession. When you do this, you include them all.
‘THE medical profession has been built on withholding information from people. It gives THE doctors complete power over their patients. Of course THEY are going to hate this information age’ .
And I actually understand your very basic conspiracy theory very well. Cheers.
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Why is it mentioned that the guy left school at 16? What’s that got to do with your argument?
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he missed out on learning about the scientific method and evidence based rationalizations, although i will concede that not everyone gets a good go at learning philosophy and theory of knowledge but oh well
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I am all for vaccinations and a regular MM reader, but I really don’t think the fact this guy left school at 16 should have been mentioned. I know many people who have developed critical thinking skills who left school early, and I have also met many ignorant people with university degrees. Let’s not box people into specific categories based on their academic achievements, it’s a rather closed way of judging other people’s intelligence. Instead let’s focus on the issue at hand, don’t presume you can know everything because you can access the internet. And for the record as the daughter of a woman from a third world country I am grateful for vaccination services in Australia.
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For decades scientists said smoking wasn’t harmful.
I’m not saying not to vaccinate. I’m just saying don’t believe everything your told. Even if it’s by a professional.
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You know who found out smoking was dangerous?
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When did scientists say smoking wasn’t harmful? Or are you confusing them with the advertising industry?
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Ah, no, smoking was in fact advocated by the medical profession, at least in pregnant women, to help them produce smaller babies (I can appreciate the sentiment .. at least they got part of the facts right!)
And shall we go into the medical practices of the Ecclectics? Bloodletting or ingesting mercury anyone? Of course we all do what we think is right at the time, and doctors are BRILLIANT! I definitely wouldn’t want to live without medical science and am so fortunate to have their wisdom at my disposal. But does that mean the medical field is perfect or I don’t have the right to question? research? blindly believe because doctors say I have to? I’m glad in today’s world it doesn’t. And I’m exceptionally glad my own circle of doctors don’t expect me to either.
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Hi Kate
Yes, there is definitely evidence that smoking during pregnancy can result in low birth weight, but can you point me to where/when doctors actively advised women to smoke during pregnancy?
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Seriously. What is there to research? You just need to look at history, when entire families & communities were wiped out by these very diseases. The only reason some see it as a ‘choice’ is because they are secure in the knowledge that the rest of us will do the right thing. I prefer the 1:2 000 000 chance of a serious adverse reaction to 1:5 chance of my son dying of measles.
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Do us all a favour and learn to use statistics properly. A 1 : 5 chance of dying of measles – WTF! What hell hole are you living in ?
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I don’t live in a hell hole. I’m lucky enough to live in a society where the majority vaccinate, thus protecting themselves and each other. Those in the past, or in some developing communities, where 1:5 children died/still die of measles before their 5th birthdays don’t have that luxury.
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Thanks Mia. Refreshing and humorous look at a very serious topic. Shame the AVN seem to have hijacked the comments. Although… “better to stay quiet and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and have it confirmed”.. maybe it’s a good thing, they can shoot themselves in the foot!
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IHow can the average person have a hope in researching when the anti-vax, anti-science sites have flooded Google with sites that take up the bulk of the top 20 or thirty Google hits?
Advice to those wanting to genuinely research legitimate information – open up Google Scholar
http://scholar.google.com.au/
and put in your search query there. Look at the difference in the articles and start your search there. It will require more work than the dumbed-down agenda-ridden rhetoric contained in the woo dominated quackery infiltrating Google world, but at least you know you are reading evidence-based information.
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I didn’t know about Google Scholar, thanks for the link
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Neither did I. I’ve saved the site in my favs now.
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Mia, did you work with a man or a woman that chose not to vaccinate? You mention the man and later refer to the person as a woman
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i kinda think it was a typo! no big deal!
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The words ‘whooping cough’ just sent shivers up my spine.. When my baby was born in 2010, she weighed only 2.2kg (5 pounds). There was a whooping cough epidemic at the time, but you can’t vaccinate babies against it until they are 8 weeks old. I remember being so petrified that she would get it (the consequences are often fatal for small babies), so I didn’t leave the house for 6 weeks. I wouldn’t let my husband invite anyone over to the house, even if they showed no symptoms, in case they were a carrier. A litle extreme, I know…
Anyway, I’m so thankful to live in Australia where horrible diseases like polio have been eradicated thanks to vaccines, so it angers me when anti-vaxers essentially FREE RIDE off the rest of us. And as someone mentioned below, tough break when their poor kids grow up and want to visit Asia, Africa or South America, where those diseases still exist…
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All truth passes through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer
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And we are now at the stage where it is self evident anti-vaxers are a bit nutty.
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You forgot to cite Gallileo
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That doesn’t mean that every loopy, nutcase idea is really true though…
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All antivaccination truth passes through three stages.
First, it is based upon feelings instead of reality.
Second, it is opposed by the rationally inclined.
Third, the more complete the information that falsifies it, the more more vehemently it is embraced as self-evident.
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I think you forgot the quotes around “antivaccination truth”
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Another misquote from the anti-vaccine brigade. Schoepenhaur never said that.
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This may only be my opinion but having grown up as the daughter of a midwife and hearing lots of interesting cases I have to say people that don’t vaccinate their children are idiots, sorry but they are…. I just pray that their unvaccinated children don’t end up in a childcare centre/school with my son! There are risks with any “medical” procedure, very rare in most cases…. There are risks in pregancy and child birth etc does that mean you should never have kids?
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Re: admission to childcare – not every anti-vaxxer gets to throw their “my rights” weight around:
http://www.hreoc.gov.au/disability_rights/decisions/comdec/1996/dd000080.htm
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My son’s childcare won’t accept children who are not vaccinated.
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If your vaccination is effective, why would you be worried about being friends with an unvaccinated? Logic please explain?
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Because unfortunately the whooping cough vaccine is not completely effective. It will work in the majority of cases but sometimes it will fail and the child will still be at risk. If the rest of the population is vaccinated that risk is minimised because there are too few hosts for the bacteria to spread effectively. (that’s called herd immunity) herd immunity also benefits children who are too young/can not be vaccinated for medical reasons.
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Because there are people in society that cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons, immuno-deficient people and babies that have not had their full course of vaccines
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I’m an continually amazed at the apparent refusal of people to accept the scientific evidence with regard to the efficacy of vaccinations. The fact that people are able to choose whether they vaccinate their children in Australia appears to be supported by the low incident of those illnesses (thanks to the herd?). I can’t see two sides.
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Hi Mia, I read your column in the paper today and I want to thank you. I am a doctor and my exasperation with some patients’ refusal to accept anything ‘mainstream’, or their conviction that for some reason doctors are all just trying to get money or do the wrong thing, becomes increasingly transparent the longer I work. A regular line is, “my hairdresser told me….” or “my neighbor said…”. When I point out that the reason I went to medical school for 7 years and have continued to educate myself long after graduation, is so that I can give them very informed and appropriate advice, I am accused of being arrogant or paternalistic. When in fact, paternalism is not always a bad thing in any profession. I don’t have the audacity to instruct the electrician how to wire the house or the chef at a restaurant how to bake their souffle. I really appreciate that you, and many other people realize doctors, scientists and other health care professionals, often do know what they’re talking about. Certainly, decisions about your own health care need to be informed. But where that information comes from is an entirely different story.
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Yes, but Samantha all of the information you read and were taught while completing your studies were based on research that was funded by large pharmaceutical companies or other such people/businesses with a vested interest. So while you may think that you know best because you have studied at medical school, all of that knowledge is tainted.*
*Not my actual opinion
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The statement you made in the first line of this reply is COMPLETELY UNTRUE. How would you know what doctors learn? Most of the knowledge of anatomy, physiology, immunology, pathology, microbiology and pharmacology (just for starters) has been accumulated through decades (if not centuries) of science and learning, and occurred well before the existence of ‘large pharmceutical companies’. Pharmaceuticals are a but a small part of the whole that modern medicine is comprised of. Please please tell me you were just being sarky!…
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Um look to the asterisk where she put not my actual opinion. She was joking. Saying what anti vax people say.
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Thanks. I realised later and edited my comment to include the ‘please tell me you’re being sarky’
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I don’t think there was a need for that, I think she was being facetious/sarcastic. Hence stating it was not her actual opinion.
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Please see my comment above.
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Don’t feel bad Feline – I had an outraged reply ready to send, but gave the asterisk a second glance and went “ah, whoops, probably sarcasm”
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Haha, don’t worry guys – definitely sarcasm!
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I had a moment of horror too. I had a lovely, intelligent discussion with Shannon on another topic the other day, and I think I’m a little bit in love with her : ) Then I saw this comment and was briefly heartbroken! I was very relieved to see the disclaimer.
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Oh Trixie, I’m glad my clarification could mend your broken heart!
And you make me blush
The feeling is mutual, though!
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I’m sorry that kind of comment is so false I have to say something. Not all research is funded by pharmeceutical companies. The majority of research is funded by the government where researchers write reports, called grants, which are reviewed by their peers, and then those peers decide who gets the money from the governement – the main grants are either NHMRC, which stands for National Health and Medical Research Council, or the ARC, Australian Research Council. Researchers can go to other sources for funding, but these government organisations are two of the main funding sources for most researchers.
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Another myth. Truly Independent research makes up over 80% of peer reviewed journal articles. All articles submitted are subject to strict guidelines to ensure there are no bias in results.
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WOOOHOOO I LOVE A GOOD DEBATE!
seriously, not even being sarcastic, I love getting out my internet boxing gloves on a topic I’m passionate about. I know some of you hate it, but I like seeing all the different views and discussing/arguing
it’s like a really intense, crowded classroom debate, where the teacher comes in at times and says ‘now now girls, language!’
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Um, is it my imagination or wasn’t there an article on mamamia yesterday on this topic by another writer? But it’s not listed anymore. Where did it go? And, why? Just wondering…
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I think because the article from the paper is embargoed until a certain time, people were coming to the site and commenting on the 9 vaccination myths busted by science post from last year until this one was posted.
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I’ve always been a fence sitter on this issues. However my 18month old Cousin contracted meningitis, her free spirited parents thought it was just a virus and let her go for a week. She ended up having 2 strokes and is now paralyzed with major learning difficulties (she didn’t walk til she was 4). They didn’t believe in vaccination, they also don’t believe in modern medicines like antibiotics that she needed once in hospital. My other uncle had to step in and pretty much force them to let her have the drugs. Everything my family has been through with this incident has changed my opinion completely. A drug that has side affects that have never been proved or watching your 18 month old go through two strokes and permanent brain damage – I know what I’d prefer!
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Sorry to hear your story, Lolly.
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P.S. I had meningitis and I’m vaccinated.
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Many types of bacteria and viruses can cause meningitis. Only a couple are covered by vaccination. (Mainly Haemophilis Influenzae Type B or HIB in case you were wondering). The main one people know about that isn’t covered by vaccination is Meningococcal meningitis (caused by the bacterium Meningococcus). Viral meningitis as a generalisiation tends to not be as serious.
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http://www.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/Handbook-meningococcal
There *is* coverage with vaccination for one strain of meningococcal meningitis.
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You’re right, but unfortunately the vaccine covers type C which is not the most prevalent strain in Australia and so doesn’t confer that much protection. Such a shame that we don’t have a comprehensive vaccine for this very scary and deadly bacterium, or a better understanding or why it causes menigitis and septicaemia in a poor unfortunate few, when it lives quite harmlessly and happily in the noses of lots of the rest of us. All we have is education about the symptoms and signs of the disease and vigilance. Oh, and antibiotics, if you get to them fast enough!
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B-type vaccine is almost here !
http://centerforvaccineethicsandpolicy.wordpress.com/2012/02/20/multicomponent-meningococcal-serogroup-b-4cmenb-vaccine-in-healthy-adolescents-in-chile/
Science FTW!
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Don’t forget meningoccal C. I do believe that we will soon be getting the vaccine for meningococcal B as well.
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Yes I am aware of this however it was tested and confirmed that the meningitis she contracted would have been preventable if she were vaccinated. They have since had more children and still don’t vaccinate – I listen to their reasoning’s and I respect their choices, Its just not the choice I would make.
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Let me preface this by stating that I am a scientist; a zoologist to be precise, and I have been in the field for approx 20 years. I am a bit of a hippy and when I first conceived my (now 2 1/2 year old) son, I was sure I wouldn’t vaccinate him. My mother is a firm anti-vaccinator and so neither myself, nor my siblings were ever vaccinated. We are all relatively healthy, no major illnesses, although I did contract german measles as a child. It wasn’t too bad at all, I got two weeks off school. As an adult I had a few shots here and there: Tetanus and rabies as required for my job, and chicken pox when I was exposed to a friends son who had it.
Going through pregnancy I figured I had better ‘do the research’ as they say and make an informed decision about vaccination. I honestly tried to find info to support no vaccinating my son, I really did. But there is nothing genuine out there!! I wanted to believe my mum had done the right thing by us in not vaccinating us, I wanted to do the same for my child but all that came out ‘my research’ was a firm belief in vaccination, and a strong disappointment in my mother for not caring enough about her kids to protect us. We were so lucky not to contract anything serious!!
Great article Mia – thanks.
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Our parents do the best they can with the tools they have available. Dont be upset with your Mum, that was her choice I suspect she cared very deeply, you survived & have to tools available to you to make a better choice for your child.
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I don’t believe your Mum would have ever thought she was doing the wrong thing – quite the opposite. That’s the very scary thing – people who don’t vaccinate believe they are keeping their children safe and are responding to the fear- mongering by the anti-vaccs. Wonder what would happen if medical circles resorted to equivalent tactics and showed images or footage of children who are damaged, dead or dying from these horrific diseases. Then the arguments might be a bit more evenly weighted.
The main reason I replied was to comment on you saying you got German Measles – ‘it wasn’t too bad at all, I got two weeks off school’. That’s the thing with German Measles, AKA Rubella, it’s not too bad unless you catch it for the first time when pregnant, when it will quite possibly kill, blind, deafen or otherwise brain damage your baby. That’s why it’s so important to vaccinate everyone – many women’s immunity will wane after they are vaccinated in year 9, and may not realise until it’s too late and they’ve caught it whilst pregnant off someone’s unvaccinated kid. However, I’m clearly preaching to the converted!
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Thanks Jackie and Feline,
I know my mum would not intentionally harm any of us. We just have a history of her giving very bad advice to all of us! She still emails me almost daily, articles about how vaccinating my son has now put him at risk of autism, brain tumours etc. Tiring to say the least – but thats a whole other mamamia article!!
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To have to take two weeks off school does sound like you were fairly ill!
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The symptoms may well have been more than that but I was only 7, my mum is a hypercondriac, and all I remember was having spots. I had to stay home while the spots were visible. I’ve never met anyone who as ever had the german measles and to be honest I don’t know the pathological difference from regular measles; I just know that the real danger of german measles is to catch it whilst pregnant.
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I had both the german measles and chicken pox straight after each other when I was a baby. I was vaccinated using the one at a time technique that was available back then and this must have got in prior to the immunisation.
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Thank you for standing up for scientists and doctors Mia. I am not one myself but have friends and family members who are. All they want to do is make the world a better place for humanity. The way some people think they are qualified to challenge them when the only information they have read is from an unreliable source such as Google makes me sick.Recently certain politicians have been some of the worst offenders when it comes to devaluing science for political gain. its disgusting.
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How refreshing to read a response like this!! Bravo to you for making an informed, educated choice. I’m sure your mother did not mean any harm though.
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Wow, I had thought that scientists only goal was to collect public money for research and kick backs from big pharma so they can get the latest model BMW. That’s what the anti-vaxers told me.
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Hear hear Mia! Yes I’ve came across these people who think they know better than a doctor quite simply they shit me and so does google. I think maybe medical facts eg shouldnt be on google for this very reason it does more harm than good. As for childhood vaccinations these parents who don’t get their children’s vaccinations done are the ones who are putting my daughter and their own children at risk and what for exactly? Really there is no reason just bullshit research based on a very rare number of people with whom can’t be vaccinated. My opinion anyhow and yes I’m pro childhood immunisation..
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a “wheelie bin full of rescue remedy”? that one sentence just discredited your whole argument. Just stick to topics like “leggings as pants” luv.
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The Rescue Remedy is a corker of a line. I LOLD HARD.
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Me too!! My mum is always pulling out the rescue remedy!!
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You lost me at ‘luv’.
No wait, before.
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I just reckon topics like “kitchen disasters” and “Russell Brand arrested” are more your thing.
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I, however, prefer to read about this than anything at all regarding Russel Brand. Here’s for real news!
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Mia, I’m starting to find the way you treat your readers like idiots simply if they don’t agree with your point of view far to frequent and extremely rude. This will be the last time I read this site.
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Is this the same anonymous concern troll from the other thread? I can never tell. It’s my age, you see.
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Maybe try another hat, snark and sarcasm just doesn’t suit you. At all.
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like I said…
Also, I’m not wearing a hat.
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See you!
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Funnily enough I have the backing of our g.p, our Paed & our GI Specialist not to vax my son, so I guess that makes them voodoo doctors of some type …
I don’t claim to be an expert & know what others should do but I am the expert of my child & that means not vaxxing when I know it will cause more harm than good.
As for being scared & whatever else by the likes of the AVN. Hilarious. Love how these articles always go straight for that first.
Oh & for the record my mother is also a Polio survivor & while will staunchly advocate for vaxxes for the likes of it she like me will never advocate for combined vaxxes & for vaccinating against everything we currently do.
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Yes, there are some children who cannot be immunised, which is why its SO important that everyone else is.
Maybe google HERD IMMUNITY and you be thankful for those who do vaccinate their children- so that your child also stays safe
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There are always special circumstances. Aren’t you lucky you live in a country where the majority do vaccinate & therefore help to protect your unvaccinated child!
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Why are you not vaccinating your kids?
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A) it did not discredit the argument in anyway, ‘luv’-it was a perhaps unfortunate example used to convey something different all together -Mia didn’t say it was proven to lower stress.
B) if you think Mia is such an idiot why do you read her
c) what motivates you to be so unnecessarily mean?
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awww, it’s so sweet the way you leap to Mia’s defence. Do you know how much Jennifer Aniston spends on beauty? fascinating..
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& there you have it folks, ? & Anonymous are the same person!
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well, I typed in my comment and forgot to add my “?” and pressed save, it automatically came up as anonymous. I then re-typed it and put in the “?” and tried to delete the anonymous comment but stuffed it up. (it was late last night, baby crying). It was not intentional.
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Mia, thankyou for your article and for standing up for science. I have been incredibly frustrated lately with the erosion of respect for science and scientists in this country, primarily lead by a bunch of people who for some reason believe that if they simply say something then it must be true. It seems like people are starting to think that science is like religion and that you can ‘choose’ whether to believe in it or not! Ridiculous. Sure, science is not infallible, but its a hell of a lot more reliable than a random person’s opinion. It is based on evidence and careful and precise measurement and analysis. And whilst there is the odd crazy attention seeking scientist that goes against their peers (there’s one in every office right!) the majority are solid in the weight of evidence for vaccination. You are quite right, there are no two sides.
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I know people who have chosen not to vaccinate their children. None of them have any sort of medical qualification, yet they think they know more about their childrens health than people who do. Very scary and very dangerous.
Well said Mia.
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Mia, I love you and this is a great article. However, doctors are often wrong. My amazing, fit and health-fanatic mum went to our “trusted expert” GP for two years complaining of shortness of breath and was repeatedly shooed away for thinking anything was wrong. She had Stage IV lung cancer and passed away one year later. She was 54. You know your own body better than a doctor, and I fully support researching symptoms and treatment options online.
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Im sorry for your loss. It sounds like your mum was not a “classic presentation/risk” for this disease. Unfortunately these tend to be the ones that get missed.
I saw 6 different GPs complaining of headaches for approx 20 years before I got sent for a CT scan and they found a massive slow growing brain tumour. 6! Like your mum I was not a classic presentation and so the 6 doctors. Yes research, but not to the point of obsessiveness or scaring yourself.
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Something to think about-
Some advice a GP I work with gave a family who were anti-vaccinations- at the moment their kids are pretty safe in Australia’s vaccinated “bubble”, however when they are older and want to travel to Asia, Africa, South America….and want/have to be vaccinated, they will have to start from scratch which is a long, expensive process. If you travel to certain countries in Sth America and haven’t been vaccinated against Yellow Fever- good luck trying to get back through customs in Australia!
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That is an excellent point Anonymous Nurse. Its so easy in Australia to feel ‘safe’; so few people have any experience with diseases like polio, whopping cough, or even the mumps!
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Yes. I always think about this!!!!!
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It’s just fear and mistrust.
Anti vac people don’t trust what Drs and scientists say. And there are many many reasons why that is the case. I know. I was one of them. When my dr pleaded with me to vaccinate my child and presented me with the arguments as to why, all I could do was sit there thinking ‘I. Don’t. Believe. You.’. How can you fight that? I had good reasons for this stance, having been very badly let down my ‘mainstream medicine’ in the past, and finding solace and comfort in an alternative path. I tried to find good answers using dr google. All I found was hysteria, and very little balance in the argument. So I didn’t vac my daughter, supported in my choice by a number of family members who were fanatically anti vac. I have spent 5 years trawling the Internet, sifting through page after page of rubbish.
Anyway, two things happened to change my mind. 1) a number of my non vaccinated children I knew personally were experiencing many of the problems usually blamed on vaccination; behavior and learning problems’, eczema, poor immune system, allergies, including my own child. If I had vaccinated her I would most definitely blamed the vaccination. And 2) my child caught whooping cough age 4 off a vaccinated child from her pre school. And it is not ‘just a cough’. Despite doing the whole natural herbs, vitamin c, etc etc she was terribly I’ll for 4 months. Her eczema is many times worse, her immune system is still not recovered over a year later. The illness was devastating to her poor little body despite her not having it ‘very bad’ and being treated by a very good (reputable) herbalist throughout the illness. I am now in the process of working with my wonderful, patient and understanding doctor in vaccinating my children using a revised schedule I am comfortable with. I realize that we can’t smugly predict how our children will react to these illnesses. That the doctors are right when they say sometimes the disease is worse than a reaction. That the Internet is full of very outdated information not relevant to our current vaccines. That severe reaction s are very very rare. Much rarer than Dr Google leads us to believe. That there is way more going on here with our kids than just vaccination, that there are many more things at play in our diets, lifestyles and environment that are affecting our kids.
In short, Mia, I really agree, I’ve been there and Dr Google does not an expert us make, however clever we like to think ourselves. I’m sad I had to learn that the hard way, but so grateful I can now put my newfound confidence in my doctor to good use (but just not telling my in law’s).
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I just want to also clarify, this is purely my personal experience and perceptions. I still completely understand and respect why people choose not to vaccinate their children. it’s a highly emotive subject. Everyone is making a choice that they feel is best for their children. I just really wanted to share my personal journey on this subject just in case there are others out there who related to it.
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” I realize that we can’t smugly predict how our children will react to these illnesses.”
Kudos to you for being a big enough person to actually admit this!
Sad thing is, the more and more people- whose decision you to choose respect – continue not to vaccinate, the more often a bad outcome from a vaccine preventable disease will occur. And it is their kids who will bear the scars – or worse.
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I hope your kids, particularly your little girl, are well now. I’m very impressed that you’re brave enough to put your story out there. I hope others read it and consider their stance as a result.
I agree with you in that we have so many things in our lives that could be related to these conditions that it’s a bit ridiculous to blame one thing. Pollution, synthetics (clothes, furniture, the list goes on), chemicals in foods, pesticides etc.
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Thank you for sharing this story.
I like that you say, if you HAD vaccinated you probably would have blamed some of the issues on the vaccine, that was a brave comment to make.
and the second is:
There are doctors out there who are willing to help revise the schedule to fit with what you are comfortable with.
So many parents comment that they are worried about “overloading” the child’s immune system.. maybe asking to amend the schedule rather than not immunising at all would be a better choice?
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Amending the schedule based on your gut instinct is not following evidence based medical practice. The timing of the vaccines are the way they are for a reason. Delaying will only increase the length of time you are at an increased susceptibility for any particular disease. For what? Some general feeling on discomfort on the part of some parents that taking multiple vaccines on one occasion will “overload” the immune system. When you consider the number of antigens we are exposed to just by walking outside and breathing, the though that having three antigens at once is potentially dangerous is an astoundingly silly proposition.
Having said all of that – if delaying will turn an otherwise non vaxxing family into a vaxxing family, then it is worthwhile. We just need to be clear there is no reason for their unfounded fears.
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While you, like everyone else, are entitled to your opinion, what I hate about this article is the underlying tone throughout that suggests parents who choose not to vaccinate are stupid people who have based their decision not to do so because they’ve trawled Google for a couple of hours..
Just like YOU are informed on your decision TO vaccinate, people who have chosen NOT to vaccinate feel they are informed on their decision as well. Who do you think you are to tell them that they are not?
Maybe your argument and writing would be taken better if it didn’t have such a condescending tone throughout it?
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Can I ask where you got your information which led to you making a decision not to vaccinate?
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What made you assume that I made a decision not to vaccinate?
I left that information out on purpose because my post wasn’t about which side I fall on, it was about the fact that Mia’s tone of writing is about pouring scorn on those who have chosen the opposite side to her – she implies, without directly saying it, that those who chose not to vaccinate are ill informed, stupid people, who base their decision on what Google says.
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It’s just that you use the term “condescending” in quite a defensive manner; like you have been the victim of an affront.
Anyway, I don’t see the need to be nice to people who deliberately lie about immunisation (not including people who believe the likes of the AVN: they are victims of a cult). I applaud the robust manner in which Mia has taken on anti-vaccination dishonesty. Babies have died. If anti-vaccinationists get their way, and more people don’t vaccinate, then., more babies will die. That is kind of an affront to me. Is it just me?
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I use condescending because she was and I don’t need to be the one or group she is being condescending towards to be offended by it.
You perhaps don’t need to be “nice” to people whose opinion you disagree with but it’s always better to be respectful towards them and not suggest that they are dimwitted rednecks for having a different opinion to yours.
Number one way to make your argument hold less weight, become personal or disrespectful towards the people you disagree with.
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Not sure I have suggested anyone is a dimwitted redneck? Can you point out where I said that?
I guess all I can do is repeat myself. Dead babies are an affront to me, especially when the deaths are preventable through accurate information instead of the proliferation of deliberately misleading information which can lead to more baby deaths. Yes, let’s be nice to anti-vaccination campaigners. Let’s care about their feelings in case their feelings get hurt because of their credulously formed opinions, and because they are being held to account for those opinions. I always enjoy being nice to Holocaust Denialists as well, because, you know, it’s their opinion that matters.
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Opinion. It does not mean what you think it means. Opinions are only relevant when there are two or more equally valid positions on a point. In my opinion chocolate is the tastiest flavour of ice cream and Highlander II is the second-worst film ever made. Feel free to disagree and advance your own opinion. When it comes to science, there is just one valid position, that which is supported by the evidence – everything else can be dismissed. The evidence supports vaccination, there is no evidence in support of anti vaccination, just “opinions”. On matters of science, everyone is NOT entitled to an opinion. Stick to philosophy.
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No it is not just you Hank.
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Sorry, have to stick my response to Amanda here – can’t reply directly. Please Amanda, we philosophers beg you, don’t send these people our way. We don’t think people who don’t know what they’re talking about have a right to an opinion either.
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I vaccinated my children and I completely agree with you anonymous.
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I agree with the other anon. It’s a bit of a pattern I’ve noticed in the columns too.
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Great article Mia, love your work!
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One of the best and bravest articles here for ages, well done!
Now I’m going to go away and not read the nasty replies because I’m sleep deprived and easily upset.
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Please don’t ever stop commenting on this issue. Noone likes to see their child injected with a foreign substance. But those considering not vaccinating must learn that there is a reason why the majority of us do it. This cannot be swept under the carpet. It is far too important.
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That video is hilarious!
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But Kate, there aren’t two sides….that’s the problem. That the misinformation pedaled by ‘organisations’ like the AVN and Meryl Dorey has sewn seeds in the minds of otherwise intelligent people is a travesty….
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It is not just Meryl, but many other “scientists”, homeopaths, and celebrities. I get the fear that drives parents to decide not to vaccinate, I mean every mother has a little worry in the back of their minds about their child developing signs of disability or chronic illness. What I worry about is how many people bother to read the original articles that are quoted by the AVN (not many because they are scientific articles which are difficult and boring to read). People trust that the information they are given is correct, but time and again Meryl has been found to be picking and choosing what she will present, so misses vital information.
This whole “debate” is so emotional, I sort of wish that the government would change the 2 yr vaccinations to be earlier or later, so that this whole autism correlation can be decided for sure. I wonder if they would consider offering the MMR again as 3 separate vaccines… maybe that would help too. I know it is buying into these parents fear, but I think we need to work out a way to provide proof.
I took the deep breath and vaccinated my baby, I would do it again with the next…. but just because I am pro vaccination, doesn’t mean I can’t try to understand why there has been this uprising of anti-vaccine activists.
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They are earlier. Toddlers are immunized at 12 months and again at 18 months. They are only immunized at 2 if they are ATSI or at medical risk. Otherwise it’s not done again until 4 years.
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Thanks for this article Mia. As other health professionals have commented before here I find it extremely frustrating when people say they have done their research. This has been heigtened in my mum’s group as one of the girls who is a chirpractor has decided against immunisation after ‘doing her research’. The comments about pharmaceutical companies reaping the benefits are ludicrous as immunisation programs are set by public health research.
After having contact with some brave individuals in iron lungs after contracting polio you are right, there is no debate.
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Really, so tired of this argument. As mentioned previously, parents who do not vaccinate are not taking their decision lightly, and certainly don’t do so by spending an hour or two on Google, nor are they uneducated, unintelligent or ignorant .. honestly, are you kidding me??!
Too much to say, to tired to bother. To all those parents who have researched both sides and chosen whichever side works for them, well done. I applaud you no matter what your choice. No one makes it lightly.
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it’s a choice that seriously harms other people. it’s not a side that ‘works’ for you, it’s a side that can possibly kill not only your child, but somebody else’s! My sister and I both have auto immune diseases, thus a shitty immune system, and by not vaccinating your child our risk of getting a serious illness skyrockets. I don’t want to walk into work and get seriously ill because some child’s parent ‘researched both sides’ – there is no side!!!
I would love to find a doctor who is anti-vaccination…anyone out there? anyone? nope, they don’t exist, and for a good reason.
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It’s not only children that are put a risk by those who are not vaccinated. The elderly, and the immunocomprimised are at risk too.
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yep sorry meant to put that in but I’m doing uni stuff at the same time and got distracted
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There are lots of anti-vaccine chiropractors: you can find them on the AVN’s Professional Members list. I’m serious.
There is also Dr Giselle Cooke. No wait. She got deregistered and now has to practice naturopathy. You would remember former Dr Giselle Cooke from the Sunday Night program, May 2009. She was the one who objected to being called “anti-vaccine”, just like Meryl Dorey does.
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I didn’t say chiropractors, I said doctors. big difference. Our chiropractor is fantastic, but I would never go to him for advice about serious medical issues.
Dr Giselle Cooke wants to be referred to as ‘pro choice’ not ‘anti vax’, but hasn’t given a vaccine in 20 years? that’s like a doctor saying ‘I’m pro choice’ on the subject of abortion but refusing to do an abortion! I’m assuming she got de-registered for a very good reason! I’m sorry, but Meryl Dorey uses the Wakefield case and has NO medical qualifications. I cannot take anyone seriously who still thinks the Wakefield case is a valid point to make.
they can be called ‘pro-choice’ all they want, but when they’re campaigning for the right to choose to vaccinate…. look, I don;t know, it just makes me furious. They prey on a mother’s fear. They DON’T HAVE MEDICAL QUALIFICATIONS! You trust modern medicine when you need heart surgery or an emergency c-section, why not with this?!
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Go back and read reasonable hank’s comment again : )
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I did…what else is there? it’s the same comment as before, doesn’t explain anything…
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He was in a roundabout way, agreeing with you.he named chiropractors as being anti vax and only one deregistered doctor.
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Kate, you said you’re too tired to bother and yet you still did. If you feel strongly enough to comment in the first place, why not do so when you’ve got some energy and can do your comment justice?
And I’m not sure you can generalise and say that all parents who don’t vaccinate have all done their research. My fathers second wife ‘refused’ to allow me to be vaccinated against rubella because she’d heard it was dodgy. That was the extent of her research, and my father went along with it. Fortunately I was vaccinated some time later when she had her claws elsewhere.
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That’s the exact point of this article!! The average person cant “research”. Unless you are a scientist with a degree or phd, you can’t possibly understand the most basic human biology!!
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Exactly! How can the average person research when the anti-vax, anti-science sites have flooded Google with sites that take up the bulk of the top 20 or thirty Google hits?
Advice to those wanting to genuinely research legitimate information – open up Google Scholar http://scholar.google.com.au/ and put in your search query there. Look at the difference in the articles and start your search there.
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Chosen which side works for them? I’m tired of people using this argument. What about what works for the child/other children/those in the community who might therefore be put at risk? I find that attitude quite selfish.
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Many read a few biased against science articles and quote those few articles over and over again, and when evidence is shown to prove them wrong they shut down or go back to their articles.
Reading a few articles is taking it lightly.
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If you want to talk about generalisations, I can do it too – I have four friends I know of who don’t vaccinate their children. Long before I knew anything about the anti-vaccination lobby I listened to their reasons why. None of them have a background in science, medicine, research or any connected field. None of them have even done the extensive Dr Google work that so many people in the anti-vaccination camp claim. Each of them has relied on their friends, acquaintences, general lifestyle and the odd article to make their decision. None of them is particularly stupid, but on this topic, they are behaving very stupidly.
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Kate – do you think no-one should vaccinate their children?
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Doing nothing (not vaccinating) is a conservative, logical and humane approach that is not predicated by Google searches.
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I disagree.
Doing nothing is a cop out, non thinking, lazy way of dealing with a parenting responsibility. You rely upon the active parenting of others to provide herd immunity for your child and your apathy. If you want to CHOOSE to not vaccinate, then at least have the decency to lodge yourself as a conscientious objector, to prove that you’ve actually put some thought into it, and are aware of the risks of NOT vaccinating.
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My apologies Rhianna, it seems you did not read my post. You obviously thought I said, “I couldn’t be arsed getting my kids vaccinated”. I am not a lazy person.
The use of reason in my post is highlighted by the concepts of conservatism, logic and humanity. Sorry if I have offended you.
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And do you apply the same reasoning processes to any other health related decisions you make? Would you prefer to *not* take antibiotics for your scarlet fever and risk the terrible side effects therein in support of your conservative views?
As for your logical choice, how does the antivaccine viewpoint provide consistency, validity, completeness and soundess with regards to the health decision being made. Certainly I am get to come across a single logically reasoned argument for not vaccinating.
And finally, on your humane approach for not vaccinating – how is it the humane decision, either for an individual or a community or whole population, to risk unchecked disease?
I’m sorry, but your reasoning is flawed.
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My reasoning might be flawed, but I act with my heart, as well as logic, humanity and conservatism. Your assertions are bordering on bullying. That is bullying me into seeing your reason, and your reason alone. I take the utmost care in my health choices. Vaccines have little to do with health, and a lot to do with disease.
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Hey mia go get some sleep now , and read the rest tomorrow. I have a feeling the nasty comments will continue…just for the record please don’t ever stop publishing your opinion….
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What and anyone else that publishes a different opinion is nasty??
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No- just those who make it personal!
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Mia herself has made it personal by implying that anyone who disagrees with vaccinations are stupid silly fools who do so based on what “Dr Google” says.
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Do not put words into my mouth. I never said anyone was a ‘stupid silly fool’.
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No you didn’t but your words did imply it.
Sometimes implying something is more powerful than actually saying it because you can come back with lines like “don’t put words in my mouth”, that way you can still get away with it.
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Nice Strawman, courageous anonymous commenter.
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Standing ovation.
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So well said and so refreshing to read such a sensible article. We are so lucky to live in a world where we can immunise and protect ourselves and our children from terrible disease. As a doctor working with children, I not only have seen children die from preventable diseases, but also deal with these parents who refuse to immunise based on inaccurate information they ‘researched’ on the internet. There is no debate. There are only the facts.
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HEAR HEAR MIA! Hit the nail on the head
Although, funny story, I remember googling some symptoms of mine 2 years ago, and all my searches came up with type 1 diabetes. I thought ‘haha, whatever, I’ve probably just got some bitch of a virus. That’d be funny, me and needles’..
The next day, went to the ER and was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes. I laughed before I cried, could not believe it. Needless to say, I have never googled my symptoms of anything since – might come true again
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Can you at least tell me that some of the children you have watched die from preventable diseases were the offspring of non-vaccinating parents? Because that at least would resemble justice.
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Unfortunately it wouldn’t though, because it was the parent’s decision not to vaccinate- not the suffering child.
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Since when would you refer to a dying child as “justice” under any circumstance??
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amanda are you replying to this comment or one further up? because on this one I’m just having a laugh at googling myself.
how dare you refer to a dying child as justice. I was going to reply to you but I don’t think you deserve a reply. That is disgusting.
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I was thinking the same thing but amanda’s comment and the comment she made further down about my daughter made me realize she mustn’t have kids anyway…she is disgusting
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I know vaccination is important.
I know vaccination can cause some people to have a bad reaction.
I also know how absolutely f*cking terrifying it was to have whooping cough as a child. It was a mild dose but I remember waking up at night unable to breathe. I remember sitting bolt upright in bed, my chest on fire and coughing relentlessly. I remember how quiet these coughs were – I didn’t even wake my sister sleeping in the next room. I remember feeling like these coughing fits would last forever before FINALLY I was able to take a tiny breath. Then the coughing would start again. My lips would turn blue but eventually I’d vomit and then be able to take a glorious deep breath in. Unless you’ve experienced that feeling of being unable to take a breath, I don’t think I can describe quite how scary it is.
I’ll be vaccinating my kids. To me, there’s no other option. I don’t want my kids to go through what I went through.
[ http://perthwife.wordpress.com/ ]
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You can still get whooping cough even when you are vaccinated – and not just a mild dose either. A needle doesn’t stop everything!
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No it doesn’t. I was vaccinated and still got it. It was awful. If I hadn’t had my needle then I shudder to think just how bad it could’ve been.
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In a room of 200 *vaccinated* people who are exposed to whooping cough, roughly 30 of them will develop the disease, going on to infect others in the community before they are diagnosed. Their symptoms will probably be milder than those of unvaccinated people who catch the disease (especially important for babies)
In a room of 200 *unvaccinated* people exposed to whooping cough, around 100 of them will go on to develop the symptoms and go on to infect the community. Their symptoms will be much worse, and if this group of 100 unvaccinated exposed people who develop the disease happen to be babies under six months, one of them will die.
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Perthwife, I had whooping cough as a child and you described it to a T. I had four months off school. I remember waking up unable to breathe, it is still one of the most terrifying moments of my life. I remember standing by my parents bed, desperate for air, I remember the fear in my eyes. My two year old brother had it at the same time. Neither of us were vaccinated because it wasn’t offered back then. All three of my kids have had all their vax and my hubby and I had our boosters.
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Science is not definitive, by that I mean that because no link has been found ‘ever’, does not mean a link will never be found. My children are vaccinated, I felt comfortable with that, but who is anyone to judge what other parents don’t feel comfortable with? Many medicines that were once thought to be safe, turned out to do harm of another nature after long term use, testing life-long effects can be a difficult thing. And I have never heard of EVERY scientist agreeing on anything! I really just LOATHE these type of posts, which are really only asking others to agree with your judgement of what others are doing as parents. To suggest a parent who holds geniune concerns for their childs wellbeing is the same as a drunk driver who has no concern for anyones wellbeing, is quite a low blow. Perhaps you can enlighten us with what does cause Autism, because last I checked, the experts, scientists, hadn’t in their infinite wisdom, figured that out.
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You are right nothing is 100% and scientists never say so. But it’s a numbers game, and all evidence currently says that you are much more likely to be better off with vaccinations (not 100%) and there has never been any reputable evidence that linked Autism to vaccinations, and there has been a lot of research done.
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No one is claiming it to be EVER….but when vaccines weren’t around, how many people were suffering and dying of polio?? Now it doesn’t exist in Australia….isnt that enough evidence to suggest it’s doing the right thing?
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Actually, I was referring to Mia saying EVER. Perhaps have another read of the article. Like I said, I vaccinatted my children, I don’t need convincing it is the safer option, I take issue with the judgement being passed and the ‘here, take as many swipes at parents who see things differently, as you can, so we can all take the moral high ground’ tone of the article.
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My little boy has autism and
a) I am certain it was not caused by his vaccines. His behaviour never changed, it just developed on a continuum a little differently. He’s totally awesome regardless of his diagnosis. Which brings me to…
b) even if vaccines caused it, I’d rather have my son alive with ASD than dead from a preventable disease.
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My nephew is severly autistic and his mum says exactly the same thing!
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Yeah danni!! Well said!
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Good comments Danni.
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Great article Mia! The reason these anti-vaccination people are so vocal is they have NO experience with any of the diseases that vaccinations prevent. My guess is they have never worked in a paediatric ICU looking after a ventilated baby with Whooping cough who has never had the chance to get a vaccination or a child with encephalitis from Chicken Pox. I have and for the record I have a 21 year old daughter who had a massive reaction from the old Triple Antigen who now has a severe sensory neural hearing loss. Was this caused by a vaccination, it may have been the cause, as sensory hearing loss was a known rare side effect. Did it stop me vaccinating my other daughter, no it didn’t. Does it make me anti-vaccination, no because vaccinations save millions of lives everyday and for once I wish people thought about the good of society rather then their own selfish uninformed agendas
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Mia. I am amazed that you continue to push this without even being open to the fact that vaccinations may have severe adverse reactions with a rare group of people. You shrugged off a report about a vaccination compensation scheme from a DR Heath Kelly who is a scientist and works at UofNSW. I doubt you have the courage to read my daughter’s story let alone look at the graphic images (similiar to a child who has been burnt all over) which can be verified by her doctor at melbourne’s RCH, the same dr that supports my decision not to vaccinate my newborn as he could not guarantee me there would be no problems . I am not against or for vaccinations but I am against people not being informed that there is a possibility of a severe reaction more than a lump on arm or fever…I wish I had been told this beforehand…now my perfectly healthy little girl is nearly blind. I don’t see why my daughters should potentially suffer again for the benefit of other kids…sorry I have to look after my own kids. I don’t try and scare people off vaccinations but when I show them her photos it at least gives them
Something to think about and make a decision with some thought. Like I said I am happy to send you the scientists report about the scheme and her story and photos but somehow I feel you are as closed minded on this as the AVN people are about who is right… It is not always about who is right but rather what is fair. Why don’t you use your media coverage to push for the compensation scheme that is in over 37 countries including NZ and England, Norway etc. but I doubt you will as you may have to admit that sometimes, just sometimes vaccinations can go wrong…as long as it not your kids then that’s ok then I guess!
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Who has shrugged off a vaccine compensation scheme? No one I have seen. Everyone is in favour of it.
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Mia did in her October response to me saying anyOne can produce a report to gOvt but does not hold any weight…her words
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Hi “Adverse vaccine sufferer.” I don’t think anybody says there is no such thing as serious adverse effects of vaccines, just that they are very rare. If you had been told there is a 1 in a million chance of a serious adverse reaction, do you think it would have changed your mind? Chances are, this *was* noted on a consent form you signed, or in a discussion you had with the doctor/clinic nurse. It’s part of the standard vaccination consultation. If that didn’t happen, I think the vaccine deliverer should be reported to the medical board for inappropriate conduct.
On the matter of a vaccine injury compensation scheme, this *is* in the works in Australia. I believe it has strong community support, and the politicians have been taking ages with it – as politicians tend to do. It’s been talked about for at least a year. Here’s a story from SMH last year on the topic. http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/roxon-considers-vaccine-compensation-20110627-1gn3d.html
The difficulty with such a scheme is going to be pinning down exactly what are compensatable effects. It is not uncommon to hear people talk about their “vaccine injured” children when there really is no proof that a vaccine was causative, beyond a parents’ gut feeling. Either way, lets hope the red tape of it gets sorted out. Vaccination has community benefit, so the community should also bear at least the financial impacts of the risk.
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I was just about the say the same thing. If you were not made aware of the chance of possible adverse reaction, then either the doctor / nurse didn’t do their job, or it was on a consent form and you missed it in the fine print (easy to do when you are stressed about the event of giving your child an injection)
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Parent shook child.
Child unresponsive.
Child to hospital.
Tests show shaken baby syndrome.
Police involved.
Parents blames recent vaccination for the brain damage as parent did not want to go to jail.
Difficult to nurse, parents allowed to visit but never to be left alone with child.
Child died.
Coroners case.
Such a tragedy.
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I couldn’t believe they tried to blame the vaccination.
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I think it was Meryl Dorey who was responsible for the revolting slogan “Shaken Maybe Syndrome” in a disingenuous attempt to blame vaccines for the hideous injuries sustained by being shaken.
The result is that Meryl Dorey is excusing child abusers and allowing them an “out” for their crimes in an attempt to bolster her cause. Who is sacrificing the lives of babies Meryl?
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Severe adverse reactions to vaccines do occur and are unfortunate and no one denies they occur. The risk of these reactions is lower than the actual disease however. Most people would be happy for a compensation scheme and would not deny compensation if it was deemed an adverse event. Good luck with your daughter.
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Vaccinations are not ever going to be 100% safe…and I’m so sorry to hear that your daughter was in the minority that was effected. But for the our population- doesn’t the risk of our children contracting diseases such as polio etc, outweigh the tiny risks involved with the vaccinations?? I think Mia is trying to inform people that Google is not the answer. You should have been informed of the risks involved…as that is what a good nurse immuniser would do. Would it have stopped you though? Just as would the risk of a plane crash stop you flying to a holiday destination??
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It likely would not have stopped me that time but at least I would not feel so guilty for going into it so lightly without even researching it….like a sheep in a herd…and at least it would have been an informed decision which it wasn’t… But it can also react against a certain blood type, through my support groups a lady has had all three kids react badly…I know it is bad luck of the draw but unless we live in another’s shoes we should not be so quick to judge others, whatever their decisions. I know my friends think of my daughter as they line up and hope like hell it won’t be their child that has a reaction as I do for them also.
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I looked up your link when you posted it and asked about it but you didn’t respond. The info I found said rarely anti-convulsives caused the reaction your daughter had.
Why do you think it was vaccines?
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It can be caused by lots of different drugs – mainly sulfur based or ibuprofen or certain anti seizures and in rare cases vaccinations which was her case
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How come nothing when I looked further mentioned vaccinations of any kind though?
Had your daughter had any of the other things that can cause it?
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You have to look really hard in journals which the hospital did..she was a perfectly healthy 18mth old at the time …never sick day in her life…it was just bad bloody luck that it happened to her.
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No one ever suggested vaccinations were 100% safe or 100% effective. The problem is anti-vax fraternity would have you believe that adverse reactions are much more common that in actual fact and also linked to diseases and reactions when there is no evidence to support it.
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I’ve never shrugged off a vaccination compensation scheme. Very important I would have thought. You must be confusing me with someone else.
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You did in your October replies…go back and have a read…it is still there
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I am a pro vaciiner, but DO NOT deny the chance of a vaccination having severe side effects. This is because ALL medications have a small chance of severe side effects. The majority of people’s reactions to vaccination is a bit of soreness to the site and fever, but in rare cases the reaction is severe. I am so sorry you have seen that in your child, and TOTALLY agree with your choice not to vaccinate your next child, as the chance of a reaction occurring again is much higher within a family. I would even support your brother or sister making the decision that the risk is too high.
However in general, the chance of a severe reaction is small, and therefore less of a chance of reaction versus chance of getting the illness. Pro vacciners should not close their eyes to the fact that there are some REAL adverse reactions to vaccination, and those families deserve for us to care about their children. It is when these families (and I am not saying this is you) start to campaign against all vaccination based on their one experience, that worries me… I read product information sheets on any medicine I put in my body, I then decide if the potential help is worth the potential and known adverse reactions.
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Even after my experience I do not advocate for or against as I believe everyone has the right to choose what to do that they think best for their child – it is certainly not my right to tell others what to do simply based on my experience…. I don’t think anyone should including AVN and Pro vaccinators..just my opinion
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I would love to see/read your information.
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Liz, when babies are a little unwell the day after a vaccination it is because the vaccination is working. No other reason. If a child is going to suffer an adverse reaction following a vaccination, it usually happens within about 20min of the jab.
Mia, totally love your work. Your stance on this topic and the manner in which you address it is brilliant and I could not agree with you more!
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My daughter’s reaction was a few days after so this is not always true
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And are you 100% sure it was caused by the vaccine??
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Yes and was agreed by RCH and was listed on the freely available vaccination adverse reactions register
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If she had been hit by a bus a few days after being vaccinated would you have made the same connection?
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You are quite disgraceful Amanda but not it was carefully investigated and concluded by the RCH doctors.
As for your uncalled for comment if she had been hit by a bus I would hold myself responsible like any parent would…clearly you don’t have kids!! Please do not abuse me for my personal opinions
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Amanda how about you pull your fucking head in? And the people who have liked your comment should do the same. Your comment is a new low, even by MM standards.
And yes, if you were sat across from me at a dinner party and made the same comment, I’d happily have said the same thing to you.
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If she’d said that to me at a dinner table I would have resorted to physical violence…
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I don’t mean a little sniffle, I mean a completely changed child for the rest of his/her life. I don’t think anyone would choose not to vaccinate because of a common cold or fever…
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Thank you thank you thank you Mia! I would just like to add that there is no such thing as a doctor with a medical degree opposed to vaccination, as someone suggests below. Having worked as an RN in medical practice & private & public hospitals for over 15 years I am yet to meet one. And my husband, a GP for 25 years has yet to either. They do not exist. It is a fallacy that the anti-vaxers use in an effort to strengthen their argument, but a total lie. Thanks again.
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“there is no such thing as a doctor with a medical degree opposed to vaccination, as someone suggests below.”
Wow have you met every Dr in the world? Until you have, YOUR statement is actually a lie, like you have accused others of in your post. Such sweeping comments do nothing but destabilise the point you are trying to make in your post.
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Sorry. I should have said ‘in my opinion’. However if someone can show me an individual with a Bachelor of Medicine, practicing & currently registered with the Medical Board of Australia who is opposed to vaccinations except in special circumstances I will eat my words.
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This is typical of the emotionally charged one-eyed comment made by those who blindly say they are on the side of evidence based science -but are clearly not. You can persuade the weak minded with that type of statement, but there are many of us who prefer to check your statements before accepting them. I know and know of many medical doctors who are not supporters of vaccination.
Sadly -as was the case in the dark ages -those who oppose the current “medical” view are silenced by censure just as the authorities did to those who questioned the current view then Men like Ignaz Semmelweis .
I get sick and tired of those who try to win an argument by saying things like -everyone who is qualified or intelligent agrees with my side of the debate. Especially since it is just not so.
History has often shown -”today’s medicine is tomorrow’s Quackery”
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I don’t think my comment was emotionally charged or one-eyed. Yes, I am on the side of evidence based science. How am I clearly not? I didn’t mention anything about it being a question of intelligence. If anything, it is a question of experience. Those of us at the coal face rarely, if at all, see serious adverse reactions. Please, who are all these ‘many medical doctors who are not supporters of vaccination’? Again, if you can show me an individual with a Bachelor of Medicine, practicing & currently registered with the Medical Board of Australia who is opposed to vaccinations except in special circumstances I will eat my words…
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Unfortunately, Melissa, there are such a thing as doctors with medical degrees who oppose vaccination. Interestingly, the ones I have heard of also seem to run rather lucrative side businesses helping to treat “vaccine injuries” or promote their alternative remedies and treatments.
Coincidence?
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Again, this is so narrow minded! Probably the reason a registered doctor does not speak frankly to you or your husband about their views opposing vaccination is you “can’t handle the truth”! Just because you or your husband have not met them -doesn’t mean they don’t exist -how arrogant and unreasonable you are to say this. I know this is not a lie and I know that for a fact -it is people like you that prevent the frontiers of science from ever being expanded. Also, if those with your attitude can’t win with logic and evidence -they use the force of law to override the patients will. I have met both kinds of doctors -I have found that those who have continued to grow after Uni and don’t just accept what the Pharma reps tell them as their total source of knowledge -are true scientists -sadly, there are many who have x amount of years working in hospitals etc, who really have progressed little . You can have 25 years of experience or 1 year repeated 25 times -your choice, but remember -you can use your degree to harm just as easily as help -with a close minded attitude.
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It is insulting for you to suggest that doctors ‘accept what the Pharma reps tell them as their total source of knowledge.’ What an offensive statement. How do I, with my attitude, ‘use the law of nature to override the patients will’? Gross. Another one. ‘many… who really have progressed little.’ You obviously don’t work in hospitals. The reality is doctors don’t try to change people’s minds. If a patient asks for advice they give it. If they ask for a Conscientious Objection Form they give that.
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I am one of those “with a medical degree that is opposed to vaccination”… But thanks for the generalisation!
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i am surprised you didn’t mention climate science there mia. the cynic in me thinks it was edited out, to keep in line with the greater editorial slant of murdoch…
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I don’t know why this always comes up, but Murdoch doesn’t tell his columnists what to write. Nor his journalists. I used to be one of them and I’ve seen this first-hand. You might have dodgy editors on a case-by-case basis, but you watch them try and tell a brand name columnist what to write, it doesn’t happen.
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Hi Rainbow, I can assure you I have copy approval over my column and nothing was edited out.
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thanks for replying mia. i just felt that climate science would have fitted in well as another example, and it made me wonder. i am totally unfamiliar with how the media works and really the role of the editor so i just pondered it, but i have no doubt of what you say.
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Here are the ever respectful anti-vaccination AVN followers in action on the AVN Facebook page today:
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Funny thing is: the AVN supporters are busy decrying that Mia claims to be an “expert”. I don’t recall Mia saying that anywhere: in fact, if AVN supporters bothered to read without consulting their Dortionary (a special dictionary used by Meryl Dorey, in which stuff means whatever you say it means, regardless of common usage), then, they would have noticed that Mia was saying the opposite of what they accuse. Straw houses and all that…
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This was my favourite having a quick glance. Straight copy/paste too – the “teh”s are real.
My experience may not be university level, however my research and information that I had to gather way before computers were even part of business, gave me the headaches of finding the books, and the heartache of making the ‘right choice’ for my child, as my intuition said NO to vaccinations. When I finally made the decision after reading much for and against, my doctor at teh time was my sounding board. When I told him of my decision, and he knew what I was reasearchng, his off teh record remark, was….his 4 children had never been vaccinated either..!!! My feeling perhaps Mz Mia may consider this, is that ANY RISK to a child with ‘side effects’ of vaccinations, to me is TOO GREAT a risk. And may I ask, why are teh people who are vaccinating, their choice, so fearful of teh ones who choose not to. Surely they beleive they are ‘protected”.or are they.
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what about the side effects – oh oops sorry the effects of the disease the child could get?
I just wonder how people ignore or explain away the figures published in the Uk that as vacination numbers decreased the incidence of the illness increased?
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sorry Kris, I meant to respond to a different post!
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I especially like how the AVN says (on their Facebook info page) that they are committed to empowering parents to make informed choices but then says commenters on their FB page must be fans of the AVN or they will be banned and comments deleted. So much for open exchange of information.
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Even if you are a fan, if you question or correct a post, it is deleted. There is only one side and agenda with that group!!!
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Took me 20 minutes to get banned for asking questions. Which is weird, cause that’s what they encourage!
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I got banned after my first day : )
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I can’t even bring myself to become a fan for the Priceline of asking questions which will be deleted, leading to me being banned.
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You don’t need to Like them to comment. Or to get banned!
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Damn autocorrect. It was privilege not Priceline.
I’d be embaressed if the interaction showed up on my Facebook page.
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Fair enough!
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Wow that is pretty venomous isn’t it… but Mia never once claimed to be an expert on children, nor an expert on healthcare…
and the whole point of Mamamia is that Mia can choose to have an opinion on things that is her own, NOT just towing any line…
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I was following the AVN facebook page yesterday. Some poor lady dared to question why they feel the need to be so nasty and she was promptly labelled a troll then abused for…well I’m not even sure what for…she stated quite clearly she just popped in to see their side. Nice.
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Brilliant yet again Mia. Please don’t ever stop being heard on this issue.
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Love your work mia! Not only is vaccination essential to eliminate disease but think of people in our community who are living with cancer, diabetes, heart diseases, pregnant women, babies … the list goes on. We don’t vaccinate and someone with a weak or no immune system has no defence against a preventable disease.
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YES YES YES
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