There isn’t enough room in this newspaper to list all the things I don’t know. There’s not even enough room in Wikipedia which – if if were an actual book – would take you 123 years to read.
Recently though, there’s been an explosion of people with a wildly inflated sense of their own intelligence. Suddenly, everyone’s an expert.
Me, not so much. I understand how little I know about lots of things. For example, I know less about science than scientists. I know less about medicine than doctors. I know less about tax than my accountant, less about cooking than Donna Hay and less about animals than Bondi Vet.
There’s no shortage of genuine experts who have degrees, qualifications and years of experience in their fields. Having access to Google does not make you an expert, nor does having a website or watching a youtube video. These things simply make you someone with an Internet connection.
“Everyone’s an expert today,” confirms social researcher Neer Korn “partly because we feel we need to be. We receive kudos for proclaiming our definitive knowledge to others and we compete to be the first to share facts, articles and videos.”
But reading some articles doesn’t put you on par with a scientist and here’s where it can become dangerous.
A few years ago, I worked with a lovely guy who had left school at 16. When his wife had their first child, he ‘did his research’ and they decided not to vaccinate their daughter. At the time, everyone around him insisted it was safe (and vital) but he was adamant. “I’ve read a lot about this and I watched this amazing video,” he insisted, “Vaccinations are just a way for big companies and the government to make money”.
Where do you start arguing the extreme illogic of that? Not here; I’d need more space and a wheelie bin full of rescue remedy. Because while I accept my former co-worker was a thoughtful person who meant well, I’m floored by the extraordinary assumption that he knew better than every scientist in the world – not to mention Bill and Melinda Gates who are spending hundreds of millions of their own dollars funding vaccination programs in third world countries to eradicate killer diseases like malaria.
What on earth could make a civilian believe his Google ‘research’ is superior to decades of science? Is it arrogance?
“The Internet has made expertise a mouse click away,” says Neer Korn. “And a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Just ask any GP who has to contend with self-diagnosing patients, determined they can identify their prognosis and treatment. They address them more as colleagues than patients, because they place their Internet search on par with the doctor’s years of expertise.”
Doctors really do live this every day. Says one of my friends who is a medical specialist: “You find yourself getting into these exhausting debates with patients who insist they’ve read something that goes against what you’re telling them. Unless you’re highly experienced, it can be extremely difficult to judge the credibility of the information you find online.”
Which brings me to the farcically named Australian Vaccination Network (AVN) which, despite its official-sounding name, is in fact a group of civilian self-styled ‘experts’ who campaign vigorously and at times misleadingly (according to findings by the HCCC) against vaccination both on their website and in the free talks they give around Australia, sometimes to expectant parents at pre-natal classes.
While publicly pedaling its anti-vaccination message, the AVN cleverly make it sound like there are ‘two sides’ to the vaccination debate. In fact there aren’t two sides and there is no debate. On one hand there is science and there is no other hand.
Because no link between vaccination and autism has ever been found. None. Ever. What has been conclusively proven is that while they are not 100% perfect, vaccines are the best and only way to protect babies and children from diseases like whooping cough that can kill them.
And the personal choice argument? Well, it’s a bit like arguing that driving your car drunk is a personal choice. You see, the lives of babies too young to be vaccinated depend on herd immunity in the rest of the community. So the choice made by that man I worked with didn’t just affect his family. His well-intentioned yet ill-informed decision has the potential to harm my family. And yours.
Watching (or even producing!) a Youtube video with some cherry-picked statistics set to rousing orchestral music is not the same as having a university degree or having your research findings peer reviewed.
I’m baffled by this growing sense that everyone has the right – indeed the obligation – to challenge facts that have been established scientifically, independently and repeatedly over years, even decades.
“Do your research!” is the common faux clarion call of these so-called ‘experts’. These exhortations are usually accompanied by a helpful list of links to similarly skewed, scientifically baseless articles that back up their claims. It’s easy to mislead people with random graphs and alarmist statements.
I’m certainly not suggesting we become a flock of sheep or suspend critical thought. But I don’t need to ‘do my research’ before I vaccinate. Or before I accept that the earth is round and that gravity exists. Scientists far smarter than me have already done that research and the verdict is unanimous, thanks.
Have you run into any Google experts in your life? Or maybe you’re one yourself?
Please take time to read (and share) this link – 9 vaccination myths busted. With science






Comments
1,122 Comments so far
Every time this topic is raised here, all it seems to do is encourage a lot of hostility and name-calling – from both sides, but mostly from pro-vaxers insulting non-vaxers. I don’t find this at all helpful in furthering the debate or encouraging non-vaxers to reconsider their point of view.
I am for the most part pro-vaccination, but I did look into the issue thoroughly before I decided to vaccinate my children, and while I have allowed most of the vaccines on the schedule to take place, I did make the decision not to vaccinate my children against rotovirus (based on my own research, but also on the advice of three – yes, three – GPs and one immunologist), and have decided not to have my sons vaccinated against Hepatitis B until they are older.
I hate this assumption though that everyone who questions vaccination is an AVN-supporting loon. I know several people who have questioned vaccination, and either chosen to follow a selective or delayed schedule, or not vaccinate at all, and only one of them is a follower of the AVN. I think the AVN is getting a lot of free publicity from this site at the moment, and that is a worry…
However, I think many of the concerns that some new parents have regarding vaccination are completely understandable. When I was a child, there were far fewer vaccines on the schedule, while there are currently close to forty vaccines given to children before the age of four. I don’t think it’s unreasonable that people might have concerns about this. Nor to I think it unreasonable that some parents might have concerns about the adjuvants in vaccines (especially when you consider that new information is appearing all the time regarding the dangers of certain chemical compounds eg. the FDA, after many years of denial, has finally acknowledged that formaldehyde is a carginogen). We are living in an age where there are skyrocketing rates of certain childhood cancers, autism, asthma, allergies, behavioural problems etc. amongst children, and until science can pronounce definitely that x, y and z are the causes of these problems, I don’t think it’s unreasonable that there are parents out there with questions and concerns about all of the things that have changed in recent years that could be potential contributors to some of these conditions.
For those of you who scoff at the term ‘Big Pharma’, I think you need to dig a little deeper. If you believe pharmaceutical companies are in the business they’re in primarily for the good of public health, then you are naive. Even our drug-regulatory body, the TGA, receives 100% of its funding from the pharmaceutical industry (the very industry it is asked to regulate), so cannot be considered impartial. I am not suggesting that there’s some kind of massive conspiracy at play when it comes to the issue of vaccination (far from it), but just that a healthy degree of questioning is entirely reasonable when it comes to the pharmaceutical industry and their motives.
I would highly recommend the excellent book ‘Selling Sickness: How the World’s Biggest Pharmaceutical Companies Are Turning Us All Into Patients’ by Ray Moynihan (ex-ABC/Four Corners journalist and health writer for the New England Journal of Medicine and the Lancet) and Alan Cassels (a Canadian science writer). It gives a pretty eye-opening insight into the tactics pharmaceutical companies use to get doctors and the public onboard with their ever-increasing list of new products, many of which are designed to treat diseases that may not even exist.
While I understand the frustration that must confront many doctors and scientists when faced with laypeople brandishing articles sourced from Dr Google, I also hate the arrogance of so many in the science and health professions, who seem incapable of acknowledging that science doesn’t know everything and that science can only be advanced by continual questioning and evaluation.
The vast majority of parents in our community are making choices based on what they believe is in the best interests of their children, not being deliberately reckless and unthinking. Labelling non-vaxing parents as ‘stupid idiots’, ‘uneducated’, ‘selfish’ etc., is not going to do anything to encourage people round to your way of thinking. All it does is alienate people. As the saying goes, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar…
*As an aside, I am curious to know how many people who’ve posted in response to this article have bothered to have their whooping cough booster (which is now recommended every five years for adults, and not just parents and grandparents). A young child is far more likely to contract whopping cough from one of the 89% of adults who are currently walking around unvaccinated than from one of the 1% or so of unvaccinated children in the community.
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“Even our drug-regulatory body, the TGA, receives 100% of its funding from the pharmaceutical industry (the very industry it is asked to regulate), so cannot be considered impartial. ”
This just isn’t true. The Therapeutic Goods Administration is funded by the Commonwealth. It’s a division of the Department of Health and Ageing. This kind of misinformation and propagation of conspiracy theories is exactly what’s so frustrating for people who support vaccination.
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http://www.medicalobserver.com.au/news/consumer-doubt-over-tga-agenda
Seems it is true. Many govt regulatory bodies are funded by the very industry they are meant to regulate here in Australia.
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The TGA is indeed a division of the Department of Health and Ageing, but it does absolutely receive 100% of its funding from industry fees. Contact the TGA and ask them yourself if you don’t believe me.
As I said in my original post, I am for the most part pro vaccination, but I also recognise that it is not a black and white issue, as should anyone capable of critical, independent thinking.
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The TGA is also funded via the government, by fees from Big Placebo. It isn’t just “100%” funding by Big Pharma.
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Yes – 100% of funding from industry (as opposed to being completely funded by the Commonwealth, as Katherine incorrectly asserted above). I have no doubt that the ‘Big Placebo’ companies have just as much of a commercially-driven agenda as pharmaceutical companies do, after all, most of them are owned by pharma companies anyway – eg. Cenovis, Nature’s Own Bio-Organics and MicroGenics are owned by Sanofi-Aventis; Herron is owned by Sigma; Blackmores is in bed with the Pharmacy Guild, and has agreements with other pharmaceutical companies… I could go on.
The point is that consumers can’t expect complete impartiality from the TGA when its funding comes from the very companies who make the products it is set up to regulate. This public concern was the primary reason for the transparency review of the TGA that took place last year.
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TGA IS entirely self funded. Yes, by fees paid by pharmaceutical companies.
It is funded by the fees that EVERY therapeutic good sold in australia attracts.
It is not just ‘given’ money by Sigma etc like Siobhan makes it sound.
Think of it like the RTA being funded by us paying rego!
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Sorry, Katherine, but you and the 7 other people who ‘liked’ your comment need to do your research better. Here’s a hint: use google!
Gees, talk about sheeple!
The TGA is entirely, 100% self-funded. That means it’s funded by the fees paid by the companies who the TGA is legislated to regulate.
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Yes, I was rolling my eyes at the 7 ‘likes’ for that comment too. Google can actually be helpful sometimes, people! And if you don’t trust your ability to source factual information using Google, why not contact the TGA directly and check for yourselves.
Incidentally, I initially discovered this info about the TGA from a very well-known and highly respected investigative journalist I know, and this has since confirmed through my own research, and by several friends in the science and medical community.
And Jess, I disagree with your analogy. While the public have a vested interest in wanting good, safe, well-maintained roads, people paying their car rego don’t generally have a deeper financial or political agenda, unlike pharmaceutical companies.
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I’m no fan of big companies routing the system and price gouging people or twisting regulatory body’s aims etc, but pharmaceutical companies are in it to make a profit. Do they act unethically at times? Yes, I’m sure they have, do and will continue to. Just like insurance companies too. They are not all bad though and as long as there are laws and regulatory bodies and even people willing to whistle blow, we will be able to keep them in check.
I think sometimes that people have the idea that we lived in a utopia of health before vaccines etc. We didn’t. Life was brutal and often short, with women dying in childbirth and a lot of kids not making it to their 1st birthday, people dieng from infections from simple cuts and infectious diseases. The reason they didn’t wipe us out as a species was mostly because there were a lot less of us and so disease couldn’t travel like today. Some survived the disease, lucky them. Not to mention th effect plumbing had on us.as for the toxins, remember the pollutants and chemicals you live with on a daily basis. Remember too, that even oxygen in too high a concentration is a toxin. Please, people, remember these things before you dismiss vaccination.
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Fabyian, I’m not sure where in my post I dismissed vaccination??? I thought I made it quite clear that I am for the most part pro-vaccination, but I do understand the reservations that some parents have about vaccination, as I don’t believe the issue is quite as black and white as it’s made out to be.
I certainly don’t think the world was a perfect utopia before vaccination. I’m well aware of how many babies died of illnesses that we see very rarely these days thanks, in part, to vaccination. I have a family friend with a sister who was left permanently brain damaged after developing measles at the age of five, and an older (now deceased) family friend who contracted polio as a child (the writer Alan Marshall, who wrote the book ‘I Can Jump Puddles’ about his early life). On the flipside, I know two children who were left with permanent brain damage as a result of the DTP vaccine, and have heard many other stories of babies having quite severe adverse reactions to various vaccines on the schedule.
Pharmaceutical companies can be pretty insidious in the ways in which they try to promote their products. I am probably more aware of their inner workings than most members of the public, as my youngest sister died as a result of a popular sleeping tablet that has caused an extraordinary number of adverse reactions and deaths, yet remains on the shelves, as it is a big seller for the pharmaceutical company who manufacture it.
But my point in posting above was really to say that a little more understanding wouldn’t go astray in this debate. I mean there’ve been so many articles posted on Mamamia on vaccination in recent months, but the comments are always the same. I would love to know if any of the comments made by most of the pro-vaxers have managed to convince any non-vaxers or anyone sitting on the fence to adopt a pro-vax position? I suspect not, and not because there haven’t been a lot of well-thought out, educated and articulate posts, but because many people have responded so aggressively or in a very condescending manner. Labelling people selfish, uneducated, stupid etc. is not the way to help change their thinking. In fact, I suspect most of the time it does the opposite.
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Siobhan………. I can only hope and pray your children don’t get rotavirus. My 3 year old son did, long before the vaccine. He was in hospital hooked up to drips and monitors. I thought I was going to lose him. It was the scariest time of my life. No child need go through that.
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Tinkerbell, I’m very sorry to hear about your son, but the reason I decided against giving my children the rotavirus vaccine was because I have four friends whose babies contracted rotavirus and/or severe gastro (three of whom required hospitalisation) immediately after having the vaccine. As it’s a live virus, it is present in the stool of babies for at least a couple of days after the vaccine is given, so can be easily transmitted to caregivers and/or back to the baby, so I was anxious about the risks associated with that particular vaccine. I had three (very trusted) GPs who agreed with my decision, two of whom admitted that it was the one vaccine they were actually opposed to (and one of whom is a highly respected doctor who works at a practice run by one of the doctors often mentioned and quoted very favourably here on Mamamia). I am not going to mention any of these doctors by name because as one of them told me, recommending against a particular vaccine or even daring to question any aspect of the vaccine schedule could get them de-registered. I should say that two of these doctors are largely pro-vaccination, and the third is pro-vaccination, but with strong reservations about the current schedule.
As I said, I am largely pro-vaccination myself (and my children have been vaccinated against almost everything else) – I just have reservations about a couple of vaccines on the schedule, rotavirus being one of them.
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Interesting, it is compulsory for me to get my dog vaccinated before I can put her in a kennel with other dogs, BUT I am obliged to send my precious child to school when half the kids around them may not be vaccinated- go figure the logic!
Some things need to be done for the greater good of the community, we sometimes need to forget about our own issues and accept responsibilities for others care too.
People are so flippant about childhood diseases now, none of them are as prolific as they were as most kids are vaccinated. If the levels drop any further things will continue to increase.
Maybe we should have to prove our kids have been vaccinated before they go to school.
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94% of kids are vaccinated. So enough of the hysteria
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“94% of kids are vaccinated.” …
…in some places.
Not far from where I live (in Australia), the rate is apparently around 70-75%. Can I please have some hysteria?
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My children had to prove they were vaccinated before they were accepted in afterschool care.
I believe that schools are not allowed to discriminate but after school care is considered an option.
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Just a question, do they charge you for the vaccinations or are they covered by Medicare?
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Can’t remember the terminology, but the vaccinations on the register (ie the ones that a daycare may require your child to have) are covered. My GP appointments to have my children immunised were always bulk-billed and then you receive an Immunisation allowance from the government after they’re done. Other vaccinations (such as a follow up chicken pox and a certain mennicicogal (sp!) vaccination) are not covered and can cost $200-400.
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Fantastic piece Mia. It is so important to vaccinate our children for their best chance and for the greater good of the community. I personally encounter “Google experts” all the time and as frustrating as it is to disseminate my own informed and well-intentioned personal and professional opinion (medical degree, specialist training, experience), only courageous, bold, articulate and influential people like yourself can help spread the right information/public health message. Thank you Mia.
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If you want to get a real life view on what can happen when you vaccinate your baby type ‘Saba Button, the girl who is never alone’ into Google and see if it makes you think twice. They’re not Google experts, they’re real people in Australia living the consequences now.
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The ironic thing about this being that had these parents done some googling beforehand, they would have pulled up the reports about problems with the vaccine and maybe have thought twice. But the damage is done now. Such a heartbreaking story.
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The Fluvax rollout was a debacle. Yes. Saba and her family continue to suffer. This is wrong. They should be duly compensated for the lifetime of care and suffering they will endure. Bring on the no-fault compensation scheme, for real AEFI, like Saba’s.
The reason the Fluvax was rolled out was because of many infuenza deaths in children, in WA. Let’s not forget that.
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If you want to get a real life view on what can happen when you can’t vaccinate your baby and have to rely on herd immunity in an area with low immunisation rates, type Dana McCaffery into Google.
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Great post Mia, thanks for telling it like it is.
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Firstly I’d like to say I mean no disrespect to those who are discussing the vaccination issue, but I feel there’s a deeper philosophical problem that lies at the root of this, any many other similar controversial issues. So excuse me for getting off topic slightly.
A lot of people seem to be chanting the “Science is God” mantra. Just because something has never technically been “proven” wrong, doesn’t mean the system is infallible. The reason why science discredits anything in the realm of the “metaphysical” is because these “metaphysical forces” are beyond its very comprehension. Einstein put it so well when he said “No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.”
It’s like a computer that’s trying to “understand” our human reality. Even the most advanced of technologies could never come close to computing the incomprehensible power that pulses through our universe. People need to stop hiding under the bubble of science. Science is merely a tool, not the source itself. Use it, but don’t become a slave to it. Science can only build, organise and analyse knowledge that lies within its own testable framework. Anything that falls outside of this scope simply “doesn’t exist”. If one were to prescribe to this view, then according to science, much of our so-called “reality” wouldn’t exist. Does anyone out there truly believe that science could ever understand or measure such things as a parent’s love for its child? Or the miracle of seeing new life born into this world? Or the timeless rhythm and harmony that binds all life? Does anyone really think that all that wonder could be broken down into 1′s and 0′s? If ever I smelt arrogance, it’s right now.
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On a scientific level, I think that the insistence on a belief in the magicalness of that which science cannot explain is something neurological and is related to believing in gods.
Me – while, like you, appreciating and rejoicing in the absolute awesomeness of being human and all the emotions and processes our very existence entails – I will however continue to believe in a rational explanation of it all. As a scientist though, my beliefs will change when evidence to the contrary is found.
And in the meantime, just because science doesn’t know everything doesn’t mean I’m going to fill in the blanks with whatever fairy tale nonsense.
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It seems a little odd to me that whenever the concept of science being ‘a little less than completely definitive’, the magical-pixie card is played. As Michael expressed so clearly, science cannot measure everything. That is a good thing, because it gives us a chance to use our ethics and our ability to question the motivations of science.
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Why must anything metaphysical be referred to as “magical pixie” or “fairy tale nonsense”? I think some people are quick to forget that accepted scientific phenomena once belonged to this “magical airy-fairy” realm. Before science could explain why thunder or lightning or whatever occured, people had “metaphysical” explanations for these things. As I said, science has never and will never be the source of the creative, it is merely a tool to measure these things. Again, Einstein makes a good point; “The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed.”
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Michael, that is a wonderful quote from Einstein. One other great mind from the 20th Century was Immanuel Velikovsky. The mythology of our past, according to him, was based on observable events in the sky, that were more than likely electrical discharges (lightning storms, unlike anything we’ve experienced) that were both glorious and, at times, terrifying. His work was largely ignored, because he had the audacity to encourage interdisciplinary study on campus. When a specialist views a problem though the prism of his/her own chosen field of study, we end up with warped and useless societies. Science is a repeat offender in this regard. Vaccines are a result of a narrow field of enquiry, where the wider landscape was ignored when the time came to bring the vaccines to market. The great mystery will not be televised (especially not by scientists).
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In saying that we once had metaphysical explanations for phenomena that have since been properly explained through science, you appear to be arguing with yourself. Or do you think science now accepts that Thor makes thunder?
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scientists once believed that the earth was flat.
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You know what? You’re right! Who was it that discovered that the Earth was not really flat? Hmm. Help me out here.
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Please look at “Saba Button, the girl who is never alone. That is just 1 story, many more are out there.
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As opposed to the thousands and thousands of undocumented stories of people who have been vaccinated and suffered NO side effects.
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..and millions who were not vaccinated and died.
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sure, I’ll help you out -read Job 26:7 and Isaiah 40:22 -written thousands of years before “science” discovered the earth was a globe hanging on nothing -the bible said it. Problem is, Both the Churches and Mainstream science were too full of ego to listen to the prophets -nothing changes.
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I’d be happy to help you out reasonablehank. Because I feel that your reason is flawed. If (hypothetically) scientists discover many years from now that vaccines do in fact have adverse side effects, is the science community then going to pat themselves on the back? Even though (hypothetically) the “crazy ones” had it right from the start? Go science! You see my point? I realise this is a hypothetical situation, but it would have been EXACTLY the same in times past when people debated whether or not the earth was flat.
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I’m always happy for your replies, Michael.
It is already acknowledged that vaccines do have side effects, ranging from minimal (the overwhelming majority), to serious (extremely rare). These are observable: here and now. They have been ever since we started using vaccines.
Thanks you for pointing out that my reasoning is flawed. Now, if you could show me an example.
Your hypothetical situation is not really relevant, because, well, it isn’t.
Are you wishing for the day when the soothsayers are proven to be right, even though they are consistently, and embarrassingly, shown to be wrong? Is this how we wait for the Messiah? Am I going to hell for trusting facts?
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So… we should assume vaccines are bad and that events are driven by paranormal forces because one day science might discover that they are?
Seriously?
That’s just a recipe for anti-knowledge where every assumption is accepted as truth because we don’t know for sure, right now, that it’s wrong.
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I had my flu vax today! I’m going back next week for my Whooping Cough vax because a close friend is expecting a baby. Guess which camp I am in?!
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The side that has a cough but it is misdiagnosed as bronchitis because they have been vaccinated and assumes it works.. you end up holding the baby and spreading the disease, but it was not you as you were vaccinated.
Latest child got whooping cough from older sibling who had been vaccinated.
Get informed read Dr Mercola, Dr Oz they are in the media 2 you know and lots of pediatricians do not vaccinate and if they do choose to only when the infant is 2years and above. This debate is old and like all debates it will keep going GP’s are psycopaths, drunks, cocaine addicts, parents and not always right.
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Perfect illustration of Mia’s article. Thank you, nasty anonymous person.
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Another ‘Anonymous’ comment………..
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What’s the difference between ‘Anonymous’ and ‘becauseimthemum’? or any other name on here that is not your real name?. No one is putting their face to their comment.
And no ‘Anonymous’ is not me.
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It is proper etiquette to ensure other commenters know if they are talking to one person, or many. “Anonymous” gives less accountability to courageous, anonymous opinionators who do not like accountability.
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Because I’m the same ‘becauseimthemum’ every time I comment. My name and my picture identify me. I am happy to take responsibility for my comments. I like others to know who they’re talking to. There are too many different posters all with the same ‘Anonymous’ name. Just like if you were all called ‘Sally’ I wouldn’t know which one I was talking to.
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If you know any doctors that are cocaine addicts then you should report the fact; or…are you just repeating some mantra that you have picked up and so faithfully reciting?
Also, why should I trust someone who cans Evidence Based Medicine…and then …by the way has something better to sell the reader.
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But the alcoholic doesn’t matter?? That is just accepted, so is giving children coke and fast food.
Sugar and injecting them bypassing the natural defence system that our body has, thats right put it straight into the blood stream give the baby a shock.. as soon as it’s born…
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Your comment is petty pointscoring. When has an alcoholic [insert professional] been let off the hook for practising whilst under the influence of anything?
Can you also provide an example of a vaccine which is injected “straight into the blood stream”?
Clearly you prove the point of Mia’s article.
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read this the same day as I came across this picture. Very fitting
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http://www.health.gov.au/internet/publications/publishing.nsf/Content/cda-cdi34suppl.htm~cda-cdi34suppl-1-intro.htm
That is the government stats on preventable disease. It is the decade for. 1995- 2005. 24 deaths. Hardly worth all this carry on. Most people still vaccinate. Kids are not dropping like flies and non vaccinated kids are no risk to your unless they have a preventable disease ( whopping cough is common these days) and your not immunised.
The tone of the un vaccinated must be kept out of school etc is hysteria not based on fact.
I don’t think we have a right to force people to immunise. you cannot force people to put stuff I. Their bodies. It is plain wrong. I would get it if we were I. The middle of a huge deadly epidemic but we are not.
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But whooping cough HAS been declared an epidemic at the moment.
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it is hardly wiping out 1000′s of people. I am for vaccination. But I am also for freedom of choice. And I don’t like over the top hysteria- not this article exactly but some of the responses like segregated schools etc. All bit much really.
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When would it be enough for you to pay attention though? And people having it is OK? Having broken ribs and vomiting from coughing for weeks and weeks is OK? How is that OK? Why is that OK?
For someone who works in the medical field (pharmacy or something, if I recall?), I don’t get how you seem so oblivious to how immunisation works. You should know that just because you’re vaccinated doesn’t mean you’re safe.
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I am not saying don’t vaccinate. I like vaccines. I give them to myself. I just don’t think you can force people against their will without good reason.
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What would be good reason though? You seem happy for whooping cough and other vaccine preventable diseases to spread so we’re not forcing people. I’ll ask you again because you seem to have missed my questions: When would it be enough for you to pay attention though? And people having it is OK? Having broken ribs and vomiting from coughing for weeks and weeks is OK? How is that OK? Why is that OK?
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It would be enough when she or one of her family gets whooping cough
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“Hardly wiping out 1000′s of people”? Sorry, but, tell that to the families of dead babies, and scarred babies. How many is okay?
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well that is the point, Amandarose.
To AVOID a ‘huge deadly epidemic’ because then it will be way too late for so very many people.
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Well done. You are one of the deliberately non-immune adults who offer Pertussis a free ride if it were to visit you. Only 11.3% of adults are up to date with their boosters. Shameful.
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I do vaccinate. Myself and my children so I am not one of the unvaccinated masses. But let’s be realistic. Most people do vaccinate. Over 90% of the population are vaccinated for the usual childhood diseases.
I just do not see why people want to force people to inject stuff into their bodies without will. People have a right to do as they wish with there body- All we can do is highlight the positives of vaccination and offer them for free.
I do not get why people wouldn’t use them. I do not know one single person who has had a severe reaction to their vaccines except one person with Gillian Barre post flu-Vax.
I just don’t like the hysteria toward non Vaxers like the have rabies or something. It is just as silly as the non Vaxers believing all they read.
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No one is being forced to vaccinate. What is being called for is an end to the misinformation which leads people to believe that vaccines are worse than the diseases.
In a perfect world, people would be able to make their decisions using accurate information (which is available), instead of endangering others by relying on pseudo-experts who know little of the subjects on which they expound.
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iAmandaroseI am not arguing with anything you just said or Mia said. Just some of the over the top comments. And I wSn’t being flippant – just pointing out the chances of our vaccinated kids dying from being in contact with those non vaccinated it very minimal.
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The reason people react so strongly to non vaxers is that they are making a deleterious contribution to public health. What they are failing to do is harmful to the community.
People may have a right to do as they wish with their body (in general), but in my view, only in so far as their actions are not harmful to the community. We all have a responsibility to the greater population.
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I agree that you have the right to choose for yourself.
I don’t agree that you have the right to choose for a child. To be with a child that has whooping cough is heart breaking.
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“all this carry-on” over 24 deaths?
How dare you. Every one of those deaths was a tragedy and every one left behind a shattered family.
Your callous flippancy is breathtaking.
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Of course it is not ok. But whe. Can you start forcing against people will vaccination? I do think it is fabulous to vaccinate. I get it. But I do not think it is ok to force people to do it . I will not have a government telling me to put stuff in my body without choice. It is a human right I am happy to defend. But I am also happy to support vaccination in a positive way as it is a great idea and I think wording in in a more positive frame would be better then the hysteria directed at segregating schools, stopping your kids being friends with non vaccinated kids and forcing vaccination just pushes a bigger wedge between the non Vaxers and those that immunise.
I don’t think it is flippant to point out the stats. The reality is people die very day. Lots of things are preventable. Many many people die I. Car accidents that are preventable but we take everyone’s cars away.
Junk food would kill 1000′s of people but we don’t close down the shops.
I was just pointing out that the hysteria is not based on facts.
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It seems to me that if we ever have compulsory vaccination it will because of the misinformation spread by the anti-vax lobby.
Choice is a fine thing providing the decision is based on credible information and not anti-science fear mongering by people who also believe we are under the control of a genocidal race of lizard people.
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’24 deaths. Hardly worth all this carry on.’
Excuse me?
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In a decade. Not enough to tie people up and inject them is it.
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Who is tying people up and injecting them? Your argument is now absurd, and callous. Go and look at yourself in the mirror. Seriously, 24 deaths that were preventable. 24 lives unlived. You should be ashamed of yourself.
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Actually many comments are hysterical. Look a few down at Alexander’s. Science is about stats and risk and choice. What is your problem with me pointing them out?
It was just a way to illustrate that people commenting Bout people being forced to vaccinate is not ethical.
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But who is tying people up to vaccinate them?
You haven’t answered my questions ^^^ either.
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Where is this happening?
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One of the reasons that we are not regularly in the “middle of a huge epidemic” is because of people being vaccinated. Vaccination is why the death numbers are low…however you may like to look for some morbidity statistics.
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Exactly my point. Most people vaccinate 94% in NSW so why all the hysteria and non Vax bashing?
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The 94% is for kids up to 4yo. Your comment is inaccurate. You have already acknowledged, have you not, that the adult rate is 11.3%.
There are also many pockets of low immunisation, such as the Northern Rivers, which hovers around 80%, for *children*. Some of the individual towns in the Northern Rivers (Mullumbimby for example) are way below that percentage. You are extrapolating an incorrect conclusion from one data set.
Two confirmed deaths are from the Northern Rivers region. I am told there is a third which was kept private, from 2009. This is yet to be substantiated. Dead babies who did not need to die. Your stubbornness is callous.
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I am not being callous. Just pointing out all this hysteria will not make the militant anti Vaxers vaccinate. real stories are more moving and much more likely to get people to vaccinate.
You would hope that deaths in these communities would wake people up to why people vaccinate.
But for NSW kids in primary school are 94% vaccinated. Most people do not live in Nimbin and do take responsibility. Those towns have many other issues as well to worry about such as heroin use and drug problems. I used to work and live in the area.
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Nothing will make anti-vaxers vaccinate. It is a cult.
Sydney’s Eastern Suburbs fares worse than the Northern Rivers. It is last on the list of immunisation coverage by DGP.
You claims presuppose that populations are stagnant. They are not. People travel. So do bacteria.
You are being callous.
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http://www.medicareaustralia.gov.au/provider/incentives/gpii/files/feb-2012-national-division-ranking.pdf
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Ten babies died in California in 2010. Ten. Babies. Died. And yet with extra (free) vaccines, media attention, public support, networking, early detection, compulsory teen vaccines etc dropped the pertussis count from 9000 cases in 2010 to 3000 in 2011 with no deaths. I’m pretty sure there are 10 sets of parents and grandparents and siblings who are still recovering from 2010. Any deaths from a VPD are no ok. None whatsoever.
LOS ANGELES — California did not suffer a single death from whooping cough in 2011, the first year since 1991 that there have been no fatalities in the state from the highly contagious illness, health officials said Tuesday.
The news comes after the state experienced a whooping cough epidemic in 2010 when 9,000 were infected. Most vulnerable to the disease are infants too young to be fully immunized. Ten babies died after exposure from adults or older children.
Cases of whooping cough, also known as pertussis, dropped to 3,000 last year and authorities were waiting to see how this year goes before declaring the epidemic over.
“Everything seems to indicate we’re heading in that direction,” said state epidemiologist Dr. Gil Chavez.
Public health officials credited the decline to greater awareness, faster diagnosis and a new state law requiring that middle and high school students get a booster shot before starting school.
At the peak of the epidemic, doctors were urged to spot whooping cough early, send infected babies to the hospital and promptly treat those diagnosed.
“We worked very hard on that and I think it was successful,” said pediatrician Dr. James Cherry of the University of California, Los Angeles.
The California Department of Public Health also gave out free vaccines to hospitals and aired public service announcements in English and Spanish.
“People rallied and got vaccinated and it made a huge difference,” Chavez said.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/24/whooping-cough-california-deaths_n_1228884.html (plenty more articles etc online giving the same info, but this was the first and easiest one for me to grab at work)
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But that’s not where we live, so why should we worry?
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in some ways I disagree- I have not got alot of faith in G.P’s. I work with them and I see busy people with 10 minutes to diagnose and treat patients.
They stuff up and alot- not in a major way but they are busy people and I really think people should have a good idea what they have, they should know about the medications they take and if something doesn’t feel right is most likely isn’t.
My mother in law has not medical back ground and she was diagnosed with psoriatic arthritis and put on strong immunosuppressants. she got a second oppinion – same diagnosis. Then she went back and asked her G.P to send her to an orthopedic guy and he realized she didn’t have arthritis just needed a shoulder reconstruction and was a bit stiff from stress. She was on seriously toxic medscope for no reason.
So really don’t trust your G.P completely or even your specialist as they do not have the time to really look into your problems.
Having said that – stick to proven web sites and you can take charge of your own health. The Better Health Channel, Wikipedia, Patient.co.uk are all good sources of info as the NPS for drug info.
The vaccine thing- Over hearing about it on this site.
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In sympathy with G.P’s how annoying must it be when people diagnose with dodgy stuff like adrenal fatigue, imaginary allergies, want non synthetic thyroid hormone( why anone should prefer to swallow pig hormones is beyond me).
something are just silly and get so much coverage.
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You obviously don’t have a thyroid condition. If you did, and you needed replacement hormone, you might well prefer to have the option to have that hormone replaced by something made in the natural world as opposed to something made in a test tube.
I just don’t get the ick factor with Natural Desiccated Porcine Thyroid. What, you don’t eat pork? ham? bacon? It’s all pig product.
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I’ve also worked for GPs for years. There’s one in my family as well, and I agree totally. Yes, there are your pesky hypochondriacs who are just busting to be diagnosed with some deadly disease, but for most of us, DON’T take the GPs word for it – get a 2nd & 3rd opinion! If 3 or 4 drs say the same thing, then good. If you are getting inconsisitent diagnoses, keep asking questions!
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Maybe people should be willing to pay the extra to spend more than 10 minutes with their GP if they value their own health.
Also; in seeking a second opinion: what sensible thought process would lead someone to seek that opinion from someone with far less education and training in a GP and with a belief in an alternative physiology and alternative theory of disease (unsupported by research or study)?
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Nothing wrong with a second opinion for a qualified health professional. No all G.P’s are equal or know everything. It is ok if they are wrong sometimes just like it is ok to get a second opinion.
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If you are unvaccinated you should have to attend a special school for unvaccinated children and be forbidden from participating in cross school sports programs so that vaccinated children are not at risk. These schools will of course have a high mortality rate from measles and other preventable diseases but at least vaccinated families will be safe.
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are you trying out material for this year’s comedy festival?
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If they are vaccinated they won’t need protecting as they have been vaccinated.
We are not in the middle of a swarm on deaths related to these diseases. I am over the hysteria.
I vaccinate my kids so I do ‘t have to worry about them catching it.
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“I vaccinate my kids so I do ‘t have to worry about them catching it.”
I agree. People should be allowed to risk their own lives, and those of their children, by driving “dangerously” too. Let’s face it, lots of people do it anyway and they don’t die. And if the rest of us all wear our seat belts, then we’re perfectly safe and shouldn’t try to force other people to do things our way.
But then again…
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isn’t the whole point of vaccination that it doesn’t matter what germs you mix with? segregation has just worked so well in the past; YAY lets bring it back!
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So Alexander if you believe that vaccines provide immunity then why would you need to stay away from the un-vaccinated population? Dumb.
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Because no vaccine is 100% effective (although 80-90% protection is still far better than 0% protection) and because there are a proportion of the population that are unable to be vaccinated for medical reasons.
Antivaxxers should be banned from making this STUPID illogical argument again and again when it is clearly bollocks.
Dumber.
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They would appear to have a concrete wall-sized mental block when it comes to absorbing that oft demonstrated fact, trixie. It’s actually one of the quotes that immediately identifies an AVN indoctirined sockpuppet/ hardcore antivaxxer.
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OMG!!!! hypocitical much!!!! this article itself deigns to exhibit some “expert knowledge” that is totally ill researched, what makes it even worse is that you are advising people about decisions regarding the health of their children.
I believe that a major issue within society today is our lack of ability to question information that is fed to us by people who we believe should know what is best; take for example the doctor who told me that I needed to stuff drugs up my 4yo son’s anus to solve his medical problem when a little research of my own determined that feeding him a few prunes or quiwi fruit and upping his water intake was a much more effective solution that cured the problem rather than masking it! QUESTION EVERYTHING! Baaaaa
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Maybe we are reading a different article. I think the point Mia is making is that she is not an expert. I have a feeling that this may have been one of the points underpinning what Mia has written.
Also, Law of Exclamation, rounding off with a “sheeple” noise. Well done you.
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clever that was one of the major points of her article, and then she went on to tell us all how she knows that we should all go out and vaccinate our children without any further question thus illustrating what she had been complaining about in the first place!
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Not at all, the recommendation of the scientific medical community is to vaccinate. Her point being a google warrior doesn’t really stand up to years and years of peer reviewed scientific data and consensus recommendations, of which she put forward.
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Surely if the entire medical and scientific community were on the same side there wouldn’t be so much argument on the topic in the first place. The fact that there is so much talk about it shows that the information we have relied on is being questioned. Don’t forget; scientists once believed the earth to be flat. I just don’t understand why so many people are against reviewing all possible information before making important decisions, surely this can only make us better parents, business people, humans!
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I don’t think anyone is against asking questions. Scientists are the kids who keep asking “But why? But why?” all grown up. But many of us do have a problem with people asking why, being told an answer and then dismissing it because it’s not the answer they want. Just because it’s not what you want to hear doesn’t mean it’s wrong or untrue. It just means it’s not what you wanted to hear.
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Anonymous – vaccine scientists ARE in favour of reviewing all possible information – that’s how vaccines get developed, updated and improved.
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Wow Anonymous, how many fallacies can you cram into one short statement?
“Surely if the entire medical and scientific community were on the same side there wouldn’t be so much argument on the topic in the first place.”
Just like with climate change “debate” all the scientists are on one side and the loony fringe is on the other.
“Don’t forget; scientists once believed the earth to be flat.”
No they didn’t. Going back to ancient times it was known that the earth was round. The earliest people deserving of the title “scientists” – the ancient Greek philosophers – concluded from observation that the earth was round.
“I just don’t understand why so many people are against reviewing all possible information.”
Only one side has information. That’s what this is all about. The other side has MISinformation, lies, conspiracy theory, more lies, appeals to emotionality, and yet more lies.
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You don’t make any sense. I’m sorry. I’m not being rude, but, I don’t understand your comment.
I think Mia is stating that you should rely on experts in their fields, and not rely on people who think they are experts because they Google anti-vaccines sites (among other science denial entities), and tell you about things of which they have no understanding, as they haven’t studied it.
I really like Bertrand Russell’s comment (paraphrase) that “the problem with the world is that the stupid are cocksure, whilst the intelligent are full of doubt”. It wonderfully sums up the Dunning-Kruger Effect, which is at the heart of this whole debate:
“The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which the unskilled suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes.[1]
Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. As Kruger and Dunning conclude, “the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others” (p. 1127).[2]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
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ReasonableHank.. I have been reading the comments from the top down and have ‘liked’ almost every comment you have made.. All intelligent, witty replies to weak arguments. Now you go and quote Bertrand Russell (the man whose writing convinced me to do a honors degree in Philosophy).. Oh, be still my beating heart. I think I love you.
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I love that Bertrand Russell said that as well. I liked him before I even knew of that statement.
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So tell me, was he constipated then? Something that would have been caused by the diet that you gave him?????
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thats right, we are not all of us perfect, lucky I did my research and found a solution to the problem.
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Just out of curiosity, what drugs did the doctor want you to insert into your child’s anus? A bisacodyl or glycerol suppository?
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nope just panadol (in suppository form), no mention at all about how to solve the problem. I would normally have asked but was feeling a little overwhelmed at the idea of how to achieve what he was telling me to do. Surely a doctor would want to help stop the problem causing the pain?
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Sounds like your doctor did the correct thing. Panadol in childrens forms often contains sorbitol which has a slight laxative effect. That plus some pain relief would assist mild constipation (which also prunes and things like pear juice would too).
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Guess what?? It isn’t compulsory to vaccinate your baby in Australia….it is completely a parents free choice. Good or bad, like it or loathe it, that is the current situation. If you have a problem with that, then take it up with the Government. Until then, writing articles like this are of little value.
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don’t see anywhere that Mia is suggesting vaccination be compulsory. And personally, I think there is a massive value in writing these articles – they attempt to combat the huge swathes of absolute bollocks (that is a technical term) out there about vaccination.
And why take it up with the Government? As far as I can tell, on this topic, Mia is happy with this Government’s (and the previous and the previous and the previous) stance on vaccination. Which is – just frigging vaccinate your children. (I’m paraphrasing).
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“It isn’t compulsory to vaccinate your baby in Australia….. … writing articles like this are of little value.”
Cooking with garlic isn’t compulsory either, but there’s no shortage of people writing articles about it.
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“Pharmacists in particular operate in view of profit”
- Given that most pharmacists are employees, I doubt your claim.
“As a pharmacist, you have no say in what the doctors prescribe and have to comply with his/her instructions, even when you don’t always agree”
- Bollocks. Pharmacists are in constant contact with prescribers whenever an anomoly is uncovered. Pharmacists constantly advise doctors. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
“You are downplaying the real side effects that vaccinations may cause. If it was just a matter or a sore arm or a bit of crying, anti-vaxxers would not have a problem.”
- There are *extremely rare* serious adverse events following immunisation. You think anti-vaccinationists would not be concerned if it were just a majority of minor adverse events? Bollocks. The overwhelming majority of AEFI are minor. Anti-vaccinationists still have a major problem. It is the vaccines. It is always the vaccines.
“A lot of dr’s are overworked and very stressed. So what? are we supposed to just nod and go along with their recommendations just so we can make their life easier?”
- Don’t go to a doctor. That would make their life easier. Don’t get sick, ever. Go to a motel instead, where your demands will be met with cowering obsequiousness.
“Big Pharma are repeat offenders. More recently drugs like Champix, Travacalm and Vioxx are very recent examples of how drug testing may not be so stringent.”
- Without overly defending Big Pharma, how many drugs are out there? How many have you listed? Post market surveillance has picked up the problems associated with these medications. What were you doing? Also, Travacalm was Big Placebo, not Big Pharma. Remember?
“The trouble is that once you vaccinate you cannot undo the vaccination, as you can stop using a cream or stop an oral medication”
- You would still need to provide evidence of a systemic harm being caused by immunisation to support your underlying premise that immunisation is harmful. You have not done this. I don’t think you can. You are not the first.
“Are you having trouble moving your fluvax stock”
- Grow up.
I didn’t see so much a “rebuttal” as much as a “footbullet”. Well done.
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Sigh, thank you for the reply. I honestly tried to think of a way to respond to him/her while maintaining professionalism but it was impossible. So best to say nothing at all.
Discounted fluvax for you!
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woo hoo! TAKE THAT BIG PHARMA!
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Don’t you have fluvax included in your salary package for being a pharma shill??
You need to get Jim in payroll on to that!
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? – It’s kind of flattering (in a slightly creepy way) that you’re so interested in everything I have to say, but you really don’t need to comment on everything I say.
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Lol.that Jim in payroll’s a busy boy isn’t he!
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They had to put him on because Bob got so good at recruiting shills.
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Last I heard, a pharmacy is not a charity. Generic substitutions mean huge profits, that’s why they are so aggressively pushed. The considerable price drop occuring on April 1st this year has many pharmacists sweating.
A pharmacist may be in constant contact and advise a doctor of any harmful drug interactions, but cannot alter a prescription. A doctor does not have to answer to a pharmacist. They may take on board the pharmacist’s advice at their discretion.
The rest of my points stand as they are. How do you know what my underlying premise is? maybe I just like a good debate?
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You gave away your underlying premise with every other comment you’ve made. Comment threads work like that. You are pretty run-of-the-mill. I didn’t even need to look up “concern troll” on wiki.
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you still haven’t addressed my comments. What a coincidence, I was just thinking how run-of-the-mill you are. *raspberry*
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“Generic substitutions mean huge profits” – ummm, no they don’t, they are practically cost of production. Pharmaceutical companies make almost no money out of them. That’s why it’s such a big deal when they come off patent.
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at the retail level, generic subsitutions mean huge profits for the pharmacy business.
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Gotta love that, eh? You are pretty wrong there.
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uhh nope.
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How? They’re cheaper to produce, so cheaper for the individual chemists to buy, so cheaper to sell to consumers.
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mark ups my dear, mark ups. Let me hold your hand through this one. Paying attention now…
A brand name product like Nurofen for example may cost $2.00 at wholesale level, and retail for $4.95. The generic equivalent (of which there are too many to name) may cost $0.50c and retail for $4.50. And so on with almost everything in the whole pharmacy. Multiply this by 1000′s of units. The huge chain stores are notorious for doing this and negotiating massive discounts.
The customer is happy, because as far as they’re concerned they are getting a bargain..
do people really not know this?
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Bueller, Bueller?
*crickets*
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I know you’re just using numbers pulled out of the air, but that isn’t the case as I’ve seen it with OTC drugs at chemists.
For prescription drugs, I’ve used the generic option where available for years now, and it is much cheaper – no selling them at just below the retail price for the brands.
As you say yourself, they’re not charities, why shouldn’t they make a profit?
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Seahorse, it’s such a big deal when thay come off patent because then all the generic companies get to stick their snout in the trough.
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Hi there “?” – I’ve written elsewhere on this topic about doing smart research. You are proving again that people need more encouragement and perhaps a little more direction about how to do that, and your patronising comments don’t really help matters.
If you do some informed research, by investigating the financial statements of pharmaceutical businesses and pharmacy businesses (all available to everyone in the world online!) you will see that pharmaceutical businesses make their money from new patented drugs, and pharmacy businesses actually derive most of their profits from consumer products, not generic medication.
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Many people are proving the point that you can be poorly educated. You’re still educated. It doesn’t mean it was a good education for what you’re trying to do, though. A law graduate is educated in interpreting the law. Not so much scientific studies. Still educated though.
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This issue is very heated,generally very personal and not one where the sport of ‘parent bashing’ should be encouraged.Most parents are trying their hardest to do the best for their children. Unfortunately Mia painted a picture (as is usually the case with this debate’ that on one side is a wealth of scientific research which positively show the benefits of the current vaccine schedule (which is ever increasing) and the other side are crazy hippy parent self diagnosing and putting all their faith in dr google. I have sought out dozens of health care professionals on both sides of the fence. I dearly wanted the benefits of vaccinations to outweigh any potential risks as this would make life much easier all round. Unfortunately after years of research and countless medical books this does not seem to e the case. Mia I’m sorry but there are literally hundreds of MDs willing to go on the record about the significant risks and lack of efficacy of the current vaccinations.
Just look at vaccination council.org if you want the other medical side.
Just as a conscious adult…does it actually seem right to vaccinate at a newborn against hep b…a virus transmitted but sexual conduct and IV drug use?????
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vaccinationcouncil.org is a rabid anti-vaccine den of misinformation. Your Argument from Authority (“hundreds of MDs”) does not accurately represent the overwhelming majority of medical professionals in favor of vaccination. Sorry.
“Following acute infection, 1 to 10% of those infected as adults2,3 and up to 90% of those infected as neonates1,2 remain persistently infected for many years (see Figure 3.6.1). Chronically infected carriers of HBV are identified by the long-term presence (longer than 6 months) of circulating HBsAg.4″
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/Handbook-hepatitisb
tl;dr: if a baby gets HepB, the chances of it becoming a chronic condition are hugely increased. HepB can be transmitted by cuts etc (daycare?), or even from asymptomatic carriers (Dad, Uncle, Aunt, Cousin with a cut?). The hookers and junkies argument is a poor one, used a lot by people like the vaccinationcouncil.org to downplay the risk of chronic infection which can develop if contracted as a baby.
The graph is from the link. It illustrates how serious HepB infection can be in a baby.
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I’m very interested in what you have to say. What’s your qualification?
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I’m a professional internet commenter. I’m paid by Big Pharma to infiltrate message boards, surreptitiously selling prescription medicines to the blind and dumbed down sheeple. Big Pharma promised me a big payday, one day. They say, “any day now, Hank, you’ll get that Beemer. Any day now”. So, I continue to do their bidding, on that promise.
btw, have you got a buck? My landlord is stalking me.
This comment is private, right?
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Sorry I wasn’t actually being facetious. I was genuinely interested as you have a stong opinion and vast amount information. I’ll take your response with the humor intended.
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Sorry. It’s late. And they promised they’d ring
I’m a nobody, really. I just know all of the usual suspects, and have an inkling of where to go for accurate info.
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Shockingly discredited site. Try again.
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Sorry Mia.shockingly discredited by whom? Just because you so firmly sit on one side of the fence would it not be more effective to have a critical thought process rather that flippant comment? Substantiate.
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If you really want to see the depths of hideousness to which these people will dig, read this
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/02/the_vilest_antivaccine_lie_that_wont_die.php
The IMCV are defenders of baby murderers, all in the name of anti-vaccine faith.
The post is rightly entitled “The vilest antivaccine lie…”
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WHERE are all these ‘literally hundreds (as opposed to metaphorically hundreds) of MDs’ on the record? WHERE???? Where are these records of their objections? Where are the links? And their qualifications?
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They must be squirrelled away busily treating all the hundreds of thousands of “vaccine injured” children in antivax LaLa land.
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Has the AVN done any of its own independent research and had it peer reviewed? Have they at least attempted research, if not had it peer reviewed?
Genuine question, not being snarky. It just seems that they attempt to pick apart others’ research if it is inconsistent with their own beliefs, don’t place other research under the same level of scrutiny if it is consistent with their beliefs and don’t actually undertake any actual research of their own.
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The only “research” Meryl Dorey has is reading the work of others and misrepresenting it (if it was of quality), and accruing a list of adverse events which are unsubstantiated and anecdotal.
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It is not unusual for AVN admins, particularly Meryl Dorey, to respond to a question on the AVN Facebook page including the words ‘if my memory serves me correctly’. Sources of information are often newspaper reports or commentary from discredited health practitioners. The information provided by the AVN is poor quality, often anecdotal and unable to be corrected due to tight censorship by admins.
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The antivax crank, Meryl Dorey
Says there are two sides to the story
But her so-called conviction
Is nothing but fiction
An addiction to false claim’s on glory
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More limericks, logical fallacies, amusing anti-science clangers, nutty conspiracy theories, hypocrisy exposed, general hilarity at Meryl’s expense and her famous brain: all over at her website: http://meryldorey.org
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I find alot of the comments on this site really disrespectful. You won’t educate and change peoples opinions with sarcasm, disrespect and arrogance, sorry Mia normally like your stuff but this is only going to make the debate more divided. Shame because I do believe in vaccinations but you are only going to get non believers off side. Wasted opportunity really.
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I don’t think anyone expects to win over “non-believers” so showing the more-loopy of them respect wouldn’t achieve much.
Children’s lives are at risk here.
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Thank god for scientists! The rest of you can stick your head in the sand..
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If you choose not to immunise your child you are an unfit mother. THE END.
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I’ve immunised both my children and would encourage other people to do the same but I still think your comment is moronic.
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You are an idiot
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After reading the below posts I have so much to say and therefore i will say everything I have to, in point form.
1. It absolutely disgusts me that some people imply that health professionals operate completely for the view of profit. You know what, I became a health professional because I got good grades and thought I would use that to make a positive change in this world. It makes me think twice when I read comments from some people undermining our motives. Is it so hard to believe that I actually enjoy helping people?
2. We always do our best to help people! None of us are risking our 5 + years of education, of hard work, of sleepless nights spent studying, just to make 5 bloody bucks off of a drug. If I don’t think something is safe for you, I won’t give it to you! End of story.
3. Risk versus benefits. Of course medications/vaccinations have side effects. How do you expect to cause an effect in one area of the body without affecting the other parts? Sure, this vaccine might give your child a sore arm, they might cry excessively for a few days but hey it’s a lot better than them developing hepatitis b!
4. You do a lot better to trust your doctor than to trust google! Google didn’t go to university for 6 years then intern then specialise. My best friend is a doctor, I trust her completely.I have seen what she has been through. During uni she would sleep about 2 hours per night and now she busts her ass as an intern working insane shifts just to help people. Yet there are people who still criticise. Doctors do an amazing job! We should appreciate that.
5. Thalidomide is a terrible drug and it is so unfortunate that it caused the adverse effects it did. The medical profession has learnt from this. Drug testing is so stringent. There are thousands of drugs used all around the world that help people every day. Don’t forget that.
6. It is so hard to reason with people that I meet who have googled something and are convinced that it’s the truth. For example, just today I had a mother whose child was suffering rediculously from severe eczema. She refused to use a steroid cream. She had been treating him with calendula and other natural stuff and the poor kid was clearly suffering. As a health professional I must at all times respect the decisions of patients so my reply to her was along the lines of “look I completely understand how you’re feeling. It’s normal to be concerned about using strong medications on your children however for x reason you really need to consider using the steroid cream….etc etc. The human in me however wanted to scream “what’s wrong with you? Your kid is gonna scratch his face off” point of the story is health professionals have to respect patients decisions and show consideration. However you have to learn to trust us, this is our field of expertise! For example, if I have a problem with my car, I’ll see a mechanic. I’ll listen to what he has to say. I don’t pretend I know better. I dont. If I’m not satisfied with that mechanic, I’ll see another. Same goes with your health, with vaccines, with anything, ask another expert but please don’t rely on google. It’s useless! I never googled anything when I was at uni. I always looked at journals. Always.
7. Please vaccinate, I cannot stress this enough. Proof of its value is everywhere, if you allow yourself to hear it.
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I was going to write a response to all the comments below from a pharmacist’s perspective but Sharon, you took the words right out of my mouth. I agree 100% with all that you have said.
I really wish people could understand that majority of healthcare professionals are here to help people. I’m certainly not in it to make money – an employee pharmacist’s salary ain’t that grand. We are here for you, to explain the risks and benefits of medications, to help you make informed decisions. You don’t have to take what we say as gospel, but please keep in mind that we have years of study behind us (I studied for 10 years to get where I am today) and our job is to help!
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Ok , so I will rebutt your feeble arguments in point form:
1.Pharmacists in particular operate in view of profit, especially in light of the changes occuring in your profession on April 1st as you would be well aware. If you did not care about profit, I wouldn’t be hounded into buying the generic brand every time I have a script or ask for anything by name over the counter.
2. As a pharmacist, you have no say in what the doctors prescribe and have to comply with his/her instructions, even when you don’t always agree.
3. You are downplaying the real side effects that vaccinations may cause. If it was just a matter or a sore arm or a bit of crying, anti-vaxxers would not have a problem.
4. Yes, A lot of dr’s are overworked and very stressed. So what? are we supposed to just nod and go along with their recommendations just so we can make their life easier?
5.Big Pharma are repeat offenders. More recently drugs like Champix, Travacalm and Vioxx are very recent examples of how drug testing may not be so stringent.
6. The trouble is that once you vaccinate you cannot undo the vaccination, as you can stop using a cream or stop an oral medication.
I have no answer to your assertion that google is useless..but huh?
7. Are you having trouble moving your fluvax stock?
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Well using anecdotal evidence (which is so popular amongst some), my daughter quit smoking successfully using champix, therefore it’s ok.
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Well argued!
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Oh Sharon! People who treat their childrens eczema with natural stuff are being cruel. A baby died from that a few years ago, the infection became so bad. My baby had eczema that went from angry to badly infected (while using all the remedies recommended by well meaning friends) very quickly. After getting into a Dermatologist the ONLY thing that got rid of it was steroid cream.
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I love your comments Pharmacist Sharon.
If only common sense was as contagious as whooping cough…..
[ http://perthwife.wordpress.com/ ]
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Someone told my mate’s sister-in-law that she could cure an infected cut in her foot by applying a poultice made of lemon peels.
She ended up in hospital with septicemia. She still visits homeopaths over GPs.
This blows my mind.
Her kids are unvaccinated.
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And it is when you speak to a real expert that you understand just what ignorant snake oil these people are peddling.
I went along with the decision to vaccinate because I believed it was best for my family. And then I and my child were diagnosed with a very rare genetic immune system syndrome. My specialist was a professor in immunology at one of the big universities and one of his first questions after getting my medical history was ‘what has been your reaction to vaccines?’. He’d worked in vaccine research and was asking about reactions to adjuvants etc and was very curious about the syndrome and symptoms etc.
I then took off to Dr Google to see what I could find about vaccines and see whether others with my syndrome had reactions. And that’s how I found the fear mongering and scare tactics of the anti-vaccination groups. And the awful misinformation about vaccines as well as the implication that immunologists and vaccine researchers were in complete denial about vaccines causing adverse reaction. Had these people even spoken to an immunologist? I suspect not.
I then had to make the decision to continue vaccinating or not. Does the AVN help with that? Nope. Not unless I want fear based misinformation.
Thankfully the specialists involved know their stuff and I asked questions and based on their information and recommendation I continued vaccinating (thankfully without incident I might add, which also surprised the specialist as theoretically it should have caused a flare of symptoms).
I was thrilled to hear that the AVN lost it’s license to collect funds as a charity. Because someone in my situation would not have been helped by anything that the AVN could do.
Westmead Children’s Hospital used to (still does maybe?) have a clinic for immunisation adverse events and for people who have an underlying condition where they may need assistance with vaccinations. There are fantastic resources out there provided by people who have many years of training and the accountablility to ensure that you get the best health services there are.
Seriously why choose a person with an internet connection who has been reading conspiracy theories as your ‘expert’?
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Here’s a little something I googled.
It’s about a man who left school at 13, no elite school or uni degree.
He has one son who suffered profound brain damage after the triple antigen, a healthy daughter and another who was born with severe disabilities.
I think he may be able to teach the righteous, opinionated snobs a thing or two.
http://www.abc.net.au/austory/series4/9912text.htm
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Without even clicking on the link, if Wayne Bennett thought you were trying to use his story to further the anti-vaccination agenda, he would have your guts for garters. Poor form.
If you keep using the word “righteous”, you could be construed to be concern trolling. Is this what this is?
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No, I do not think he has anything to say about the vaccination debate but I think he has plenty to teach Mia about belittling those who had to leave school early, for whatever reason.
He also has plenty to teach people who look down on those who have a different opinion than themselves.
I’m not trolling and I’d never heard of the AVN before reading about them here.
And I repeat – my children were all immunised but I nurse children who were damaged by vaccines and I would never judge a parent for questioning their safety.
I’ll say it again in case I haven’t made myself plain – the righteous and superior attitude is offensive.
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Damaged by vaccines. Can you explain how? Can you explain the conditions from which the children suffer?
Also, can you point out where Mia has “belittled” anyone for leaving school early? Maybe we’re reading different articles?
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Great article, good on you Mia. As a high school teacher, I had to supervise girls who were not getting vaccinated for cervical cancer. I was genuinely shocked that only about 20% of the girls at my school were getting this free vaccine. When I asked one of the girls why she wasn’t being vaccinated, she replied “My parents don’t believe in vaccination, they think they are a con by the government”. All I could think was, how sad for this girl that she is missing out on a potentaily life saving vaccine because of her ignorant parents. I hope she doesn’t cervical cancer in the future.
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Wow, only 20%?? I am shocked so many people are against it.
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Dear Mia Freedman,
If you are going to extol the virtues of science, which are many and worth extolling, I agree, perhaps you ought not say things like the following: ‘I’d need more space and a wheelie bin full of rescue remedy.’
People that live in homoeopathic houses shouldn’t throw science-barbs.
Just saying.
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Awesome comment anonymous person!!!!
^^that was sarcasm, just like Mia’s “rescue remedy” comment. ^^
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And you know it was sarcasm how? There’s nothing to indicate it in the text, certainly.
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@ Anonymous, are you for real? LMAO!
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Pretty sure they knew it was sarcasm because, wait for it, they wrote it! Also, I took Mia’s words as being a little dig at homeopathy, too, I didn’t genuinely think she believes in that crap.
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Heh. Yep. That’s what one of the AVN members said in their vilification of Mia: that the article was ghost-written by Dr Rachie. Good times.
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Mia’s comment was not sarcastic, She’s commented before about loving Rescue Remedy. Product placement much?
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You are so cynical. How do you even enjoy your life when you look for the motives behind everything?
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Huh? Are you suggesting I was paid to mention a product in my column? Careful, that sounds like defamation.
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I’m not fortunate enough to have been able to have a child (yet?), so I haven’t had to broach the issue of vaccinations yet. I think I will most likely vaccinate. However, there are two things about Mia’s article that I want clarified: 1. What is the relevance of her former colleague having left school at 16? 2. What were the health outcomes for his un-vaccinated daughter?
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Yes I agree with your questions. I think Mia’s passion about the topic got the better of her and she revealed some of her prejudice by dropping the ‘left school at 16′ line – perhaps trying to tie anti-vaxers in with lack of education, ignorance etc. Also, the story of her former co-worker trailed off without any description of what happened with his daughter’s health (post-decision not to vaccinate) which I thought was the whole point of the story, seeing that Mia was using him as an example of what ‘not to do’.
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A brilliant article.
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Hi Mia
I love your common sense!
As a parent of 4 older children ,it never ceases to amaze me how new parents become self proclaimed experts on everything to do with children. Its like they look at my children and say ” Hmm…I can do a better job”.
The worse ones are the older new parents.(a growing group)..I am 49 with kids from 11 to 20yrs. You are right on point when you comment that we should let people do what they do best. That’s how our society is so successful.
It scares me that there are that many idiots out there who would challenge the entire global medical fraternity. Instead they rely on Google or some celebrity who’s kids happen to get Autism around the time of immunization. I do feel sorry for them, but Autism presents around 4yrs of age…that’s when kids get immunized.
Statistically some kids will get Autism after immunization…that’s a fact…I understand these parents feel they have to blame someone….and why not the big faceless pharmaceutical companies. But as your article insightfully points out, there is no connection…it has been proved beyond all reasonable doubt.
It seems to me that new parenthood must trigger some primeval parental instinct. In many this causes them to entertain these paranoid conspiracy theories about the entire scientific community. They over sterilize, over parent and over worry. So many seem to take a new interest in alternative medicine, , and read anything that proposes novel ways to rear your child to give that edge on every other child. (although they would never admit it)
To all you fruitloops out there who think this is some kind of debate…get a life and immunize your children….your ignorance is becoming dangerous.
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Umm how can anybody dispute the benefits of vaccinations? Diseases such as smallpox and polio have almost been completely eradicated due to these medical advances. This has actually saved millions of lives world-wide.
I’m all for asking questions – particularly when it comes down to the well-being of children. I think some of the wording that Mia used in her article was poor and that has allowed others to twist what she has said.
Nevertheless, it is still true that if you choose not to vaccinate it affects other children as well! When I brought home my first son he was perfectly healthy for the first couple of weeks. Naturally we had a wave of visitors over this time, including my sister-in-law and her three boys, who I later learned were not vaccinated. About 3-4 days later I noticed my son was having trouble breething and was making a weezing sound when he slept. We took him into hospital and learnt that he had caught whooping cough. That same week two of my sister-in-laws three children came down with the same thing, and her youngest has still not completely recovered.
I know that she made the decision that she felt was best for her children, but I still cannot forgive her for this. I’m just so thankful my son is okay, but our relationship will never be the same again. It was just so irresponsible – particularly how she did not tell me that they were not vaccinated and she still let them to come into contact with a newborn baby.
Parents need to think of other people as well when making these decisions – vaccination has only been successful in wiping out diseases because everyone was actually vaccinated! When parents decide not to do this they undermine the advances that we have made and put everyone at risk.
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Sorry to hear your story Lauren. Can you tell me, did your sister-in-law provide you with any reasons as to who influenced her decision not to vaccinate her children? Did she cite any organisations in particular?
I hope all recover fully.
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Wow Lauren, I dont think I could be as forgiving, but thank goodness your baby is ok.
I fully understand where you stand on this. A woman in my mothers group didnt vaccinate her child and was also heavily into natural therapies for her illnesses and ailments, instead of taking her to the Doctor for a green nose and hacking cough. We were all concerned but it didnt really come to a big discussion until we were all contemplating having or were pregnant with second children. We all began to appreciate the risk this womans child was placing on our unborn babies. Our mothers group soon folded because we just couldnt risk exposing our babies, other children or ourselves to her unvaccinated child who was also never treated properly by a Doctor for whatever illnesses she always seemed to have.
I strongly believe children need regular checkups at the Doctor. This poor kid had a terrible cough and green nose all the time. She was a snotty sickly child who wasnt vaccinated and went to a natural therapist and bowen therapist. Never the GP. I would like to see parenting payments, childcare benefits, etc only payable to parents who present their child for a health check at specific intervals at their GP.
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What a great idea, Lu. Ensuring parenting payments go to families who are fulfilling community required obligations.
Anyone who receives Family Tax Benefit part A supplement should have a look at this:
http://www.centrelink.gov.au/internet/internet.nsf/individuals/healthy_start_school.htm
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My other wish is for swimming lesson to be covered by medicare to ensure kids reach a certain standard of water safety. No lessons, no parenting payments. Kids shouldnt be drowning or dying from preventable diseases.
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thanks for sharing your story. I am all for immunisation! I am a nanny and the minute my family had their new baby I went straight to the dr for my booster shot! People need to take responsiblitiy for their decisions and actions! I am glad you got to the dr’s in time. Good luck!
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You know what? The research has already been done for me, by actual experts. Any “research” I could do would not be based on actual evidence- I don’t have my own lab, I don’t have the scientific education, I don’t have the resources.
The experts do the research, and government bodies make their recommendations based on the experts’ findings.
I don’t know what could make more sense than that.
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Well done Mia! Vaccination is not a personal issue, it is a community one. PLEASE vaccinate your children! Please! Or at least go to more than one GP to discuss this issue.
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My Dad got Polio at 4.
He’s now close to 70 and has only recently told me about it. (although we always knew, becuase he has had a limp and a skinny leg all our lives)
He says that he distinctly remembers being at a family friends house and jumping out of bed only to find he couldn’t walk. When I say couldn’t walk, what I mean is…he leg didn’t work and he could not physically walk…not he had a bit of a limp or it was a bit sore, he could not walk.
From that point on he says he was in hospital for about a year. One whole year…at 4 years old! He started off in a hospital close to home (about a hour and a half from his parents) The treatment they gave him, (because they had no idea how to deal with Polio) was to give him crutches and make him walk. Only he couldn’t becuase his leg didn’t work, so he spent weeks, being stood up, then just falling over. He said it was excrutiating painful and he was also covered in bruises from falling over all the time. Also, bare in mind, he’s 4 years old and has no idea what’s going on. Also to have such a vivid memory of the pain, over 60 years later is an indication of how severe it must have been.
After that treatment, he was transferred to anothe hospital about 6-8 hours away, where his treatment was basically having his legs wrapped in boiling hot flannels several times a day, (to try and get the muscles to stop contracting I assume). Also horrendoulsy painful and terribly lonely I would imagnie, given his dad had to be back at home to work and his mum had to be at home to look after the other children. Obviously they would go visit when they could, but this was a different generation and it just wasn’t possible for a family member to spend all that time with him.
After around about a year of this treatment, he ‘came right’ and he describe himself as ‘one of the lucky ones’ becuase he did ‘come right’ and he didn’t end up in irons or not being able to walk at all.
All this, not in a 3rd world country, not somewhere without medical help, but in a middle class New Zealand family.
If you’re considering not getting vaccinated, go find someone who’s had one of those terrible diseases and find out what horror you could be lining up your child for.
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Polio is such a horrible disease, as are many of the others that there are now vaccines against.
I had a mild dose of whooping cough (despite being vaccinated) as a kid but I still vividly remember the absolute sheer terror of waking up at night unable to take a breath in.
[ http://perthwife.wordpress.com/ ]
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Oh god. WHY are we going here again? Is it just for the site hits?
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I don’t know if I risk arrest from the Google Police for posting this but here is a WIKI list of drugs that have been withdrawn AFTER serious side effects have been found.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs
Blind trust in the pharmaceutical and medical fraternity is pure idiocy.
Rule one of education is question, question, question.
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“Rule one of education is question, question, question.” – yeah, but Wikipedia???
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Rule one of research, do not rely on Wikipedia
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Sorry, sometimes I forget how righteous the Mamamia crowd are. It was tongue in cheek.
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No it wasn’t.
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But you are missing the point about how medicines are put into use. They undergo rigorous trials, however generally with a smallish sample size. If they are then deemed to be safe, they are put on the market, However, until a drug is utilised by a wide number of people, not every adverse event can be recorded. That is why there are adverse even registers. After a number of AR, a drug is reviewed and possibly pulled from the market. There isn’t anything sinister, or underhanded about this.
Very very few drugs don’t have adverse events. Even paracetamol can have severe hepatoxic reactions. That doesn’t mean people should stop taking it. One needs to weigh up the risl vs. the benefit of taking a drug. As a patient, you should be asking questions. Ask what are the risks, how likely are they to occur, what is the benefit, and does the benefit outweigh the risks.
For vaccinations, there is no doubt that the benefit outweighs the risks.
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And scientist and epidemiologist identified the problem and put those meds on the list. That is how research works.
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well said Mel
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Are you congratulating yourself ?, along with posting as “anonymous” is “Mel” another one of your identities??? Must be exhausing.
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What the???? I already mentioned that I accidentally forgot to sign off and was automatically signed in as anon I then re-typed my original comment. I have certainly not used multiple identities.
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I think being able to read between the lines of research is crucial and if you don’t have a science background it can be difficult. I do believe in vaccinations but there is always room for improving them along with all other pharmaceutical medication to make them safer. The problem here is there is no independant body to assess the clinical trials drug companies produce. So maybe this is why there are so many sceptics. So many debates in particularly with vaccination are black and white, this is ridiculous to be all or against doesn’t leave room for the best possible prevention. Everytime I hear about it in the media its either one way or the other, people need to be more tolerant and talk things through a bit with more respect
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Heard of the TGA? Or the FDA?
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TGA is not an independent body its run by the government, do you know how much political power drug companies have? lots. Why do you think it took the USA soo long to get a hold on ice production it took them years to be able to change legislation to persuade politicians that psuedoephedrine should be banned. I was thinking more about groups like the Cochrane group would be more appropriate
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Well, another reason for taking so long to ban it could be that psuedoephedrine was very effective for its intended use and therefore banning it had consequences . It’s that risk v benefit thing again. Eventually they did make a decision that banned it; a lot of people still might not agree with that decision.
Not everything is a conspiracy.
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I dont think it is a conspiracy just going on facts there.
Who was it who said first do no harm?
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So, if it’s not government-funded, and it’s not funded by the pharmaceutical companies, how is this “independent body” funded?
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Do you have ANY idea the size of the dossier that drug companies submit to various agencies get get drugs approved for use?
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The vaccination debate is a sign of a wider problem in our community, and that is a kind of rampant cultural individualism that is harmful to the public good. Individual rights are very important in a civilised democracy. But people make a mockery of the concept when they demand personal rights without regard for the wider community they live in. The very safest option for you and your children is not to vaccinate. That’s right. Not vaccinating at all carries the lowest risk. But this is the case ONLY under the condition that every other family makes the socially responsible decision to vaccinate. When everyone makes the decision, “I won’t vaccinate because that’s the safest of all,” then you have a disaster.
And remember, the actual risk of a adverse reaction to a vaccine is very very small.
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Oh very we’ll said Rohan.
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Hitler had a unique way of dealing with “rampant cultural individualism”…
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Well done. They *always* resort to Nazis. I’m sure there’s a Law for that, indicating that only the bereft of logic resort to Nazis. I’ll call my friend Mike Godwin. He’ll know.
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Woohoo, another Godwin chalked up to the antivaxxers!
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Oh Mia! Bugger bugger bugger. I REALLY REALLY admire Mia promoting this subject, and going after the AVN etc, and this is definitely a “different” angle… but… damn… do you really tell people they “don’t need to do their research”? Dude! You DO need people to do their research, you NEED people to do their research. You just need them to do SMART research!
I might have the benefit of a science degree to help me trust the scientific process, and be a bit more experienced than the average bear when it comes to my own research, but I ALWAYS encourage others to do the same. There is so much awesome scientific research about so many aspects of parenting I wish more people knew about instead of passing around generations-old hokey mummy advice.
Google parenting science and you get a whole heap of websites about the various research, some fascinating stuff out there. Also love the Murdoch Children’s Research Institute updates on their research. Awesome awesome awesome. More of it please, and more people reading it and being educated and understanding it all!
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Look, I’m a researcher, and I know that the only way people will do good “research” for themselves is if they use GoogleScholar. Unfortunately, as you would know, most research isn’t published in open access journals. So it’s probably best to do NO research, than rely on a biased second hand interpretation of that research by the AVN.
Still people should use google scholar if they insist on doing “research” and read the abstracts of studies (some studies may be open access too).
note: I put “research” in inverted commas to indicate that most people are researching research. Research without inverted commas refers to research in the true sense (i.e,. experimentation, etc).
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Hi Shan – it’s a good point that referring to the primary source is important, and it’s hard/impossible to get your hands on, or even for the lay-person to understand. BUT I can still apply critical thought when I review someone’s interpretation of it – for example the MCRI I mentioned puts out updates in plain-english, faithfully reporting their research findings, and I personally feel that is a trustworthy example.
Mia also published an article by Alice Callahan, who has a blog called Science of Mom (here is that article: http://www.mamamia.com.au/parenting/vaccination-parenting-and-science/) and that’s another good example of a well qualified individual analysing and interpreting research for the uninitiated.
Just because you can’t get your hands on the primary source doesn’t mean the secondary source is bollocks. Again – you just need to be SMART about your research. Even though Mia says above she doesn’t claim to be an expert, she has still applied enough critical thinking (correctly) to discern that AVN-peddled “research” is bollocks.
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But people read the AVN’s interpretation of those studies and think that they are doing exactly that (applying critical reasoning), but they just don’t have the context to actually do it (reading the participants, procedure and results sections). So sometimes more harm than good can come of doing “research”.
I agree that there are reputable secondary sources, but how do laypeople understand the difference between a Meryl Dorey and an Alice Callahan?
I don’t know what the answer is, but there are people out there who aren’t fortunate enough to have the education to allow them to critically analyse sources. In that case, it’s probably best for them to trust people more educated/expert than themselves.
(gah, I know how that sounds, – trust me – but there’s no other way to put it).
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Yeah I dunno what “most” people are capable of. This goes to Jane Doe and kateinlondon below as well. I guess I’m optimistic, but you’re right, evidence says some people are clearly failing to research well. To me some of these things are obvious. Alice Callahan = PhD, Meryl Dorey = not.
I guess I just can’t stomach being told not to apply critical reasoning. On the other hand I am so convinced on this issue that I am pro compulsory vaccination and would totally back any political movement in that direction.
It galls me that Meryl Dorey contributes to what she herself describes as a political issue, and yet isn’t even an Australian citizen. So far I don’t see that she is qualified to contribute to either medical or Australian political debate?
Anyway thanks for the chat Shan. I certainly take your point. And I really hope we keep getting more and more people up the curve on how to research, now that we are all independently doing so much of it. Maybe schools should cover “how to apply critical thinking to google” in more depth these days!
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Your comments are really valuable and interesting Seahorse. Thank you!
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Seahorse -> I completely agree that people need to do some smart research.
However the sad fact is most people actually don’t know how to critically think. Critical thinking is a skill that takes years to perfect. Academics really try to teach University students how to develop this skill and even after years of Uni life, there are still some students who don’t know how to do it!
Majority of people who are smart about their research were taught to be that way. It’s a skill that must be learnt, it’s not innate.
Furthermore, if we are never taught how to critically think, then how can you discern which secondary sources are worth reading?
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Fair call.
“Smart Research” does need to be done. Not none at all!
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Seahorse – you are clearly an intelligent person, capable of getting through school, getting into university and gaining a hard won science degree. You are probably surrounded by lots of smart people – at home and at work? Ever read the comments section of a newspaper article on something like immigration? Trust me – there are an incredible number of people who are not capable of reason, critical thinking or smart research.
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There are many horrible horrible diseases that have been wiped out because of vaccination – polio, diptheria… But there are many many horrible conditions that exist because of bad drugs. Thalidomide being the most obvious example. Like most major issues, this isn’t all black or all white, there are murky shades of ambivalence. I’d recommend everyone angsting about this issue – or any number of other treatment issues – to read Dr Carole Hungerford’s ‘Good Health in the 21st Century’. She’s a GP who lectures our new doctors and has worked as a GP in Sydney, rural Australia and inner London. Although I dispute a couple of examples of research she gives (but then there’s not much I don’t dispute), it’s one of the best health books I’ve ever read. She offers common sense advice on how to make the best choices for you and your family, refreshingly herself, doesn’t always take the know-it-all approach and come down on one side or the other. She tells it how it is.
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Good point Beverly.
I would like to add:
*The morbidity and mortality from childhood diseases had declined by up to 90% prior to the mass use of vaccines due to improved hygiene (eg. public sanitation, purified drinking water), reduced crowding and better nutrition. The decline in incidence continued at much the same rate after immunisation was introduced.
*Diseases like bubonic plague and scarlet fever all but disappeared without any vaccination program at all.
*Countries that do not vaccinate against whooping cough have a similar incidence of the disease when compared with countries with almost complete pertussis vaccination cover.
*Diseases may have natural cycles.
*Credit given to vaccinations for our current disease incidence has been grossly exaggerated.
*The vast majority of the time, childhood infectious diseases are benign and self-limiting and give life-long immunity.
*However, some of the childhood diseases, if postponed until adulthood, can become much more serious illnesses.
*Infectious diseases play an important role in the maturation of the immune system of children, as described in The Hygiene Hypothesis. The immune system must be challenged and primed so that it can protect individuals against severe diseases such as auto-immune disease and cancer. Allopathy also tends to suppress natural healing processes such as fever. This tends to drive the disease-state deeper
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“The morbidity and mortality from childhood diseases had declined by up to 90% prior to the mass use of vaccines due to improved hygiene”
And how about polio?
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Hib. Epiglotitis almost gone due to vaccination. Nothing to do with clean water, hygiene, diet.
“Epidemiology
(i) Before Hib vaccination
Before the introduction of routine Hib vaccination in 1993, there were at least 500 cases of Hib disease in Australian children <6 years of age every year, and a total of 10 to 15 deaths.3 Hib meningitis accounted for approximately 60% of all invasive Hib disease, most cases occurring in children 18 months of age. Other manifestations such as cellulitis, septic arthritis and pneumonia occurred at a similar age to meningitis.6
The incidence of Hib disease in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children, especially those in remote and rural areas, was considerably higher than in non-Indigenous children.7 Most importantly, the onset of Hib disease in this population was at a much younger age, manifesting mostly as meningitis, with epiglottitis being rare. Rates of death and long-term morbidity following Hib meningitis were similar to those observed in non-Indigenous children.7
(ii) After the introduction of Hib vaccination
Since Hib vaccines were included in the routine vaccination schedule in 1993, there has been a reduction of >90% in notified cases of Hib disease from 502 in 1992 to an average of 30 cases per year between 1999 and 2002, with approximately 15 cases per year currently reported in Australia (see Figure 3.4.1).8 This reduction has been particularly marked in Indigenous children.9 Similar impressive reductions in Hib disease have been seen in other countries with routine childhood vaccination.5,10 Since Hib disease has become relatively rare, cases of epiglottitis can no longer be assumed to be due to H. influenzae type b and, moreover, even when H. influenzae is isolated from a normally sterile site, it may not be type b. Thus, laboratory confirmation of H. influenzae infection and serotype should always be sought before vaccination failure is assumed.11,12″
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/Handbook-hib
What’s a few dead kids, eh?
Scarlet fever. You know why we saw a decline? Antibiotics. The vaccine was not needed due to the success of antibiotics. There was a vaccine. It wasn’t fully rolled out, for reasons stated.
Measles vaccination:
“Worldwide, measles is thought to be the fifth leading cause of childhood morbidity and mortality with 770 000 deaths estimated to have occurred in 2000. More than half these deaths occurred in Africa.1,19 Following extensive vaccination campaigns, measles accounted for approximately 454 000 deaths worldwide in 2004.20 The WHO is overseeing efforts to eliminate measles
worldwide through immunisation and surveillance strategies that aim to interrupt the circulation of the virus.21″
” approximately 5% of recipients fail to develop immunity to measles after 1 dose.23 Following a second vaccine dose, approximately 99% of subjects overall will be immune to measles”.
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/Handbook-measles
Again, what’s a few dead kids?
Startling callousness, driven by anti-vaccination ideology and the Naturalistic Fallacy.
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Epiglotitis nearly took me out at 2 1/2. In fact, it did, but I was revived.
Hmmm, death vs statistically insignificant chance of (probably treatable) adverse reaction?
Hmmm, this is so hard because the Kardashians didn’t vaccinate. *
Eeny, meeny, miney….mo’ vaccinations. No brainer.
*No idea as to whether Kardashians vaccinate.
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Did you get your research from Wikipedia or the AVN?
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Polio has not been wiped out and is on the rise again. It was nearly wiped out but then people think it’s not a problem and stop vaccinating.
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Great article Mia.
This reminds me of the people who decide to quit sugar, because a lawyer or a celebrity told them to. They have “done their research” – they have read that newest fad book!
Never mind that the NHMRC, the CSIRO, the Dietitians Association, Nutrition Australia and basically any other peak nutrition body will tell you that sugar is not toxic.
Global scientific bodies will tell you that they have done lots of research – lots – and have found that actually, the most damaging thing you can do for your health is go on an overly restrictive, unsustainable, fad diet.
Actually (and boringly) we should all just eat lots of fruits and vegies, a bit of lean meat and some fish, some dairy foods, some wholegrains, and a dash of healthy fats. And walk a lot.
But that advice doesn’t sell books
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There Is actually research that shows sugar is bad for you. Just because a lawyer writes a book about health doesn’t make it wrong.
You will find also that proof is in the pudding so to speak, albiet a sugar free one. Those people who give it up/decrease sugar in their diet find out the benefits themselves.
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Sorry, as a nutritionist I completely disagree (about the sugar, not about vaccinations).
No to sugar. Yes to vaccinations.
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Hi KatieJones
I’m trained as a dietitian as well (are you an Accredited Practising Dietitian?). And based on the research there is nothing toxic about sugar. Do you recommend your clients avoid fruit? Of course not.
Added sugars could be reduced in almost all diets, certainly (but not totally excluded – where’s the fun and deliciousness in that?).
We nutritionists and dietitians should stick together and promote a unified, evidence-based message instead of arguing amongst ourselves. It just makes us look like we don’t know what we’re talking about!
Cheers
Frances
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Sloppy journalism Mia. It was full of arrogance, bias and the worst kind of advice; don’t question the experts!
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Haha yes… the internet has brought a whole lot of ‘information’ to our fingertips. Unfortunately there is a lot more quantity than quality.
As a lawyer I do find it interesting when non-lawyers ask me questions about a legal problem they have “researched” on the internet.
Their understanding of the legal issues and position are generally quite limited, not because they are unintelligent, but because they do not have the background knowledge to place the particular issue in context.
With respect, a lay person could not give legal advice on any matter simply by reading articles on the internet, no matter how well-researched or reputable those articles were. You need years of education and training to give you the full understanding of all the overlapping areas of law in which any particular issue exists.
I imagine the same goes for doctors and other professionals.
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I only have a general comment.
I always do my own research and then question my GP – you soon catch on if there are gaps in his/her knowledge or if they’re not being entirely truthful.
If your GP has never heard of DCIS, you’re hardly likely to accept her causal recommendation to have a mammogram. If you haven’t done your research, YOU won’t know what questions to ask and can’t assess her answers…the risk of over-diagnosis is not mentioned in the breast screening brochure.
I think there are many examples of people just accepting medical advice over the years and finding out when it’s too late there were undisclosed risks or the drug hadn’t been properly assessed etc. (DES, thalidomide) My brother-in-law has just had his hip joints replaced AGAIN – he followed the advice of his surgeon who recommended a certain type of hip joint, but who failed to disclose he was receiving royalties for each joint he used – it is alleged in a class action against the surgeon that he continued to use the joints even though there was mounting evidence that they caused problems – leaking toxins into the person’s system. The medical profession is full of vested and political interests and doctors also receive financial incentives, royalties etc…
In my opinion, people are wise to do some reading on Gardasil, screening or whatever it might be…
I don’t have kids and have never needed to look into the vaccination issue, but can understand parents who feel the need – we’re often not told the truth or the whole truth by the govt or doctors…so it’s hardly surprising more of us might feel the need to exercise some degree of caution.
It irks me that women are often told to do this or that with no real information – those days are over – many of us what real and complete information and a say in what happens to our bodies.
I can’t agree that people should just act on blind faith and accept everything that comes from the medical profession – t think that’s dangerous – my BIL did that and now he’s paying the price. (he’s still having continuing issues with his health)
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I agree we shouldn’t go into things blind. However, perhaps it is at least as valid, if not more so, to simply ask the doctor / specialist questions like, “What are the risks of this treatment / drug?” or “Are there other options?” You can even ask for a second opinion – reputable doctors will value this, as either their recommendations will be supported, or if not, they will learn something new that improves their future practices.
I really don’t believe people would go to all the trouble required to become a doctor, and spend all their time dealing with suffering people whose issues can be quite complex, if they didn’t genuinely want to see their patients healed and healthy, by whatever means necessary. I know some people who went into medicine (or law) simply because they felt obliged by their high marks, and the combination of the workload, or the realities of their first prac experience, drove them out of the first year of the course within months!
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You’d think so, my BIL did just that and the specialist strongly recommended the joint, giving it high and unqualified praise.
I think doctors are influenced by political agenda – they receive incentive payments from the Govt for various things, including pap testing and I know these payments were changed in the UK – some argued they were unethical and created a potential conflict of interest, especially as the payments are never disclosed to women.
Money and profits also have an impact and in the States, defensive medicine is a problem – being aggressively over-treated “just in case” – not in the patients interests, but it offers better protection for the doctor.
I agree with you about second opinions, but having spoken to many women about mammograms, not one was warned about over-diagnosis and uncertainty of benefit – the test is just recommended…so, sometimes it’s safer to take a look at the evidence yourself – fortunately there are lots of great books on Screening by eminent doctors who respect informed consent – Prof Michael Baum, Peter Gotzsche, Gilbert Welch, Margaret McCartney, Assoc Prof Robin Bell etc
I have enormous respect for the doctors who refuse to go along with the system, who step forward, warn and properly advise people.
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I’m sure that most doctors have heard of ductal carcinoma in situ. Mammograms will give the picture and a probable diagnosis (80% are found this way, it can be asymptomatic), with only a biopsy giving an actual diagnosis. This cancer while not agressive increases a woman’s risk of invasive breast cancer and there is a chance of reccurrence. BTW breast cancer is the most common form of breast cancer.
Personally, I’m happy to accept my doctor’s “casual reccommendation” to have a mammogram.
Always investigate the information available, but I’d still prefer to be falsely diagnosed and have a biopsy than to miss a cancer. I’m actually concerned that a big company has patented the breast cancer gene than this.
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I’ve always been curious as to how the human race has managed to survive prior to vaccinations coming into effect.
My ancestors were raised in the country and were never vaccinated. Non suffered any illnesses due to not being vaccinated.
Has anyone bothered to find out what’s in a vaccine prior to allowing a Dr to administer the vaccination to their child? I have, and believe me if you knew what was in these vaccinations you wouldn’t give them to your dog let alone your child.
We have become so paranoid about contracting illnesses and diseases that the chances of us actually contracting them is very slim. You would have to be extremely unlucky.
Death, although tragic and sad is part of the life cycle. We could not sustain ourselves if every human being lived. The strong shall survive, the weak shall perish. And this is how it is when people fall ill.
We need to stop being sheep and not just accept what the medical and pharmaceutical companies tell us. We spend more time on researching the pro’s and con’s of our next car, but when it comes to vaccinations we do nothing.
A company that I worked for many years ago organised to have the flu shot administered to their employees. I specifically asked the Dr whether the flu vaccine worked. He told me ‘no’. He didn’t have it himself and he didn’t allow his family to have it either. Now, this was a person who worked for the medical profession but was honest enough to tell the truth.
As for myself, I was born 3 months premature (44 years ago), during the middle of very cold and snowy European winter, by the side of the road. I never saw the inside of a hospital let alone be vaccinated, and I have managed to live a very healthy life without vaccines.
My sister has not vaccinated any of her 3 kids. They are extremely healthy and in fact breaking athletics records. However, her sister-in-law has vaccinated her children since birth and they are continually ill.
As for those that are concerned about their kids contracting an illness from a child that is not vaccinated, how is your child going to contract the illness if you have vaccinated them. Doesn’t make sense. Shouldn’t the vaccination keep your child safe? What’s there to worry about if you have had them vaccinated? The child you should be worried about it the one that hasn’t had the vaccination, not your own.
Vaccines are also promoted as a ‘one size fits all’ but how can that be when we are all individuals. Why is it that some medicines affect some people and not others? If you don’t know what’s in the vaccine, how do you know it is safe for your child? What if your child is allergic to certain products, but you haven’t bothered to find out what’s in the vaccine before administering. You could effectively kill your own child due to your own ignorance and negligence.
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“I’ve always been curious as to how the human race has managed to survive prior to vaccinations coming into effect.”
They died younger, sometimes from diseases which can now be vaccinated against.
“My ancestors were raised in the country and were never vaccinated. Non suffered any illnesses due to not being vaccinated.”
Mine were mostly raised in towns. They weren’t vaccinated, and my grandfather’s younger sister died of typhus as a small child.
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Agreed Lulu. My grandfather was one of 15 children, only 8 survived to adulthood. One died along with their mother in childbirth, but that again is another story.
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Wow – only 8 out of 15? That’s horrible.
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It is horrible but I think that was quite common in those days. Which goes to show how amazing modern medicine is.
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I totally agree! Why are the vaccinated children the ones who are compromised by non vaccinated children? Absolutely ridiculous! The only people I know who got whooping cough (something we should all be scared about getting apparently!) were all vaccinated against it!
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I was one of those people who got whooping cough whilst being vaccinated. My school mate who infected me with whooping cough WASN’T vaccinated. My cough cleared up after about 10 days. Hers cleared up after 6 weeks, 2 weeks of those were spent in hospital, because it’s (apparently) quite bad if you can’t get any oxygen into your body.
[ http://perthwife.wordpress.com/ ]
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Ksenija, go read the mythbusting article for answers to many of your questions: http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/vaccination-myths-busted-by-science-cheat-sheet-on-immunisation/
“We have become so paranoid about contracting illnesses and diseases that the chances of us actually contracting them is very slim. You would have to be extremely unlucky.”
Actually you are very lucky that most other people vaccinate, so freeloaders like you and your sisters’ kids are protected by herd immunity. Without other people doing the right thing, the odds of them and you becoming infected would be much, much higher – like they were before we had vaccinations. Read a history book if you want it was like when diseases like smallpox ran rampant through the world.
Antivaxers like to make statements along the lines of, “I asked all my friends if they’d every died of an infectious disease and they all said ‘no’! Therefore diseases must not ever kill people”. Have a read of this before you put your foot too far into your mouth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias
Your questions are quite basic and the fact that you need to ask them simply demonstrates that you clearly haven’t done your “research” on this subject at all. You in fact don’t know the first thing about vaccinations, immunity and infectious disease. Thanks for proving Mia’s point.
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Good work, Ken. Google a Mamamia article as the definitive argument for vaccination! lol!
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Nice one. Pity the easy-to-read article to which Ken refers is fully referenced.
Good work, Mel.
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I don’t care how or if it’s referenced. An article on Mamamia is hardly an endorsement for anything, no matter how righteous the site is on the handful of topics it covers.
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lol. “Don’t care how or if it’s referenced”. lol
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Sorry Mel, perhaps you would like me to copy it across to whale.to and you can read it there instead?
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Ken, I think you miss the point of Ksenija’s post.
The human race has managed to survive without vaccinations for thousands of years. Yes, people died along the way, but we are still here. As harsh as it may sound, not everyone is meant to live to a ripe old age.
Life threatening illnesses have been around since the beginning of time, this is nothing new, but what is new is that we are now willingly injecting ourselves with various concoctions that we are not even bothering to find out what’s in them before giving them to ourselves or our kids.
How many parents actually bother to find out what’s in a vaccination? Not many would be my guess.
It’s about arming yourself with all of the information, not just some, and then making the right decision for yourself and your child.
Who would you blame if you vaccinated your child and it had a reaction to the drug or contracted the disease and died anyway?Would you blame the Dr, pharmaceutical company or yourself for not doing your own research before allowing someone to inject your child with an unknown concoction.
As they say ‘knowledge is power’.
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“As harsh as it may sound, not everyone is meant to live to a ripe old age.”
So, the occasional, incredibly rare, serious adverse reaction to a vaccine is unacceptable, but entire families dying of diphtheria, or your newborn dying in your arms of whooping cough is OK because “not everyone is meant to live to a ripe old age.” Hmmm, double standard much?
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So, Jess and Ksenija, you’ll be just as fatalistic if you or one of your relatives withholds antibiotics and other medical treatment should their, or your child contract meningitis?. Chalk it up to luck of the draw whether they survive will you? C’est la vie?
Ri-ight.
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It’s not implausible to imagine that your ancestors if they lived in the country, were probably very isolated and did not come into contact with a lot of other people, or contagious diseases. Disease transmission was not as succesful when people were more isolated. People tended to be decimated by disease when they lived in cities (the black plague of London) or were in armies.
As other commenters noted, people had lots more kids, some of which actually made it to adulthood.
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How did the human race survive? By having more children than needed for replacement of parents. Is that so hard to work out? (Oh, and check out the older cemeteries for the tiny graves of children who died of infections diseases – and still do in developing countries).
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When you have someone special in your family – so special he left a remarkable impression on all those who knew him – who passes away from a disease that is now preventable in the vaccination schedule…..it is more than tough! And the grief – I can tell you, never stops!
I vaccinate my children because I have seen first-hand how it affected my entire family and extended family to lose a gorgeous 5 year old boy….healthy one moment – gone the next. I also know by vaccinating my children – it will not rid these diseases – but it will help protect them from the severity and damage that these diseases have the potential to cause. I guess….those who do not vaccinate need to live with the potential consequences that if a child does become sick…..they are faced with some pretty tough situations. You don’t need to Google to know – those who do not vaccinate would not want to experience the loss of their little one….like our family has.
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Well said Cath. I’m so sorry you had to say it.
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Hank…..I am just wondering if those people who make the informed choice not to vaccinate would change their mind if they were in our shoes?? In our situation – the situation of losing someone – so quick, so YOUNG, so lovable and without notice! What if you were told today – come in and say your goodbyes….your child will not be taken off life support. And, before those who don’t vaccinate jump on the bandwagon of whether I would live with a child with disabilities….I have…I can ask this question due to the fact that my sister was disabled – she had brain damage, epilepsy and heart problems – all from birth NOT vaccinations……so I know the care that goes into a loved one! I was the carer for a better part of my life…..and she had a very big purpose in life. I also have a child who was born with an auto-immune disease – her care is great and wide – I attend 4 specialists, spend countless hours at hospital & Dr visits and cannot maintain a full-time job – so I do understand the care that goes into children with special needs…..I also know the LOVE and beauty of those children who get to LIVE…….so I ask this……..and I ask this honestly and without malice…..would the decision to vaccinate change if you had a loved one like we did, pass away as a young lovable child of 5 from a disease that you can vaccinate against – or would you risk it? I ask honestly – because I truly want to know – how do you make this decision…how do you make the choice as a mother? I have to vaccinate – family history has led me this way….
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I won’t pretend to know, Cath. Some examples come in from overseas, and I’ve heard of a couple of local anecdotes, from where former non-vaccinators have rued their decision due to a vaccine preventable illness or even death. But, ultimately, who knows. I wish there was a way to get through the ideology of anti-vaccinationism, but, we are dealing with a faith-based belief system (not referring to religion per se), which is hard to penetrate with facts.
I wish you and your family all the very best of fortune and happiness. You have all been through the mill. You have been through too much.
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Mia, you have some good points to make in this blog. One thing stands out to me – your belief in science.
Science implies reliability. It claims to be underpinned by reason. Yet, at its very core, science is based mostly on assumpitions and on the five narrow slivers of light that are our five senses. So many unknowns exist (especially in regards to the human body) that science will never neatly be able to account for.
I do not replace faith in the supernatural or religion to balance out my doubts about science. I will maintain that science is a long way from providing the conclusive proof that we are all so dearly longing for in regard to our health and well-being. The religious-style belief in science is the curse of the modern era.
Our psychologically disordered society, in my opinion, can be narrowed down to vaccinations, synthetic infant formula and circumcision. The terror that infants endure from these ghastly practises can be blamed equally on science, the food processing industry and religious dogma. Humanity is slipping away from us, and science has much to answer for.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
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Hank, you give others a genuine argument on this list. I get a cheap link to wikipedia. You insult me sir. Fight like a man, what is wrong with you?
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Read it. It explains the scientific method, as opposed to belief based opinion, which describes anti-vaccinationism and other typed of science denial.
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Belief vs Reason? That is not my argument. Is there any room for mystery in your world? Or is science the omnipotent gatekeeper?
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There were a lot more mysteries in our world which we now understand. How did we come to understand them? Science is not an “omnipotent gatekeeper”: that is a Strawman. Science deals in facts. It is because of the scientific method that we better understand the world in which we live.
Belief vs Reason is not what I was stating. There are beliefs founded upon faulty reasoning, sure. That’s why we are commenting here right now.
What we need to make important decisions are facts. Otherwise we could walk off a cliff in the mistaken belief that the fall will not harm us. Actually, the fall doesn’t hurt so much: it’s the sudden stop at the end of the fall.
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Facts are not always facts. Science leads us on a merry dance more often than the MSM will have us believe. Cosmology, the mother of all sciences, has all sorts of interesting facts for us to consider. Dark matter, dark energy, dark flow etc. These are mathematical equations invented by humans to solve the inconsistencies observed with our five senses. We don’t have the complete picture in science, especially with vaccines, the human body is more complex than science will have us believe.
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Just because science doesn’t have all the answers doesn’t mean we fill the gaps with fairytale nonsense.
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“Our psychologically disordered society, in my opinion, can be narrowed down to vaccinations, synthetic infant formula and circumcision” = LOL
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Nat, I wasn’t aware that they were allowing kids to comment here. I thought I would be arguing with grown ups.
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So did she.
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I believe in being succinct
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Succinct you are, sir/madam.
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“Humanity is slipping away from us…”
Definition: humanity [hjuːˈmænɪtɪ]
n pl -ties
– kindness or mercy
Our psychologically disordered society, in my opinion, can be narrowed down to people who encourage fear within communities (such as the AVN) and people who make judgements (such as what you have just done regarding vaccinations and synthetic infant formula) when others try to do the best for their families.
[ http://perthwife.wordpress.com/ ]
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In my opinion, circumcision, synthetic baby formula and vaccines are creating a new generation of psychologically damaged human beings. Let’s see which scientific foundation will provide funding to support my thesis. You and I both know there will never be funding for such a study. The lack of motivation for established science to investigate, or even hypothesise on this notion is in itself an answer to why science disregards humanity and why we are indeed having this argument. Mia Freedman is the one judging here, judging those of us who use the web to gain second opinions.
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can I just clarify – you would like a ‘scientific foundation’ to provide funding to support a thesis that ‘circumcision, synthetic formula and vaccines are creating a new generation of psychologically damaged human beings’ ?
Is this something you’re pursuing with any scientific foundations? Or are you hoping someone will read your comments on this blog and send you some cash?
Sorry if I sound snarky, but it’s a fairly odd concept…
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There are some who are pushing for studies on this thesis. It will be long, expensive and difficult to manage. I am not one of those people, and, no, I am not looking for cash.
My point is this. Science is a big club, with many great and honest people, but mostly run by venture capitalists looking for the next big patent. I don’t have a problem with scientists making money, but the question is – ‘what motivates science to do what is does?
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For that research to be funded, it would need to be grounded in a plausible theory.
It’s hard enough to get funding for worthwhile research that is grounded in theory. Not likely to see a NHMRC grant for your study any time soon (luckily!).
p.s. My mind = blown by you!
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Although to strengthen your grant application, here’s a pro tip, include a case study as evidence for the plausibility of your proposed study:
I’m assuming you were circumcised, fed synthetic baby formula and vaccinated as a child which has led to your current psychological damage, yes?
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No baby formula, thank Goodness. But yes to the other barbaric practises. I have not claimed to be neuro-typical, but I am brave enough to imagine where would we be if we all just had the shut-the-hell-up-and-take-the-vaccines-already attitude. I maintain my right to live outside of the nightmare of the world the mad scientists are building for us.
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That’s not true. For research to be funded, a scientific foundation would need to see an outcome that would lead to some kind of new breakthrough in science that would allow glory and/or funds to be attained. My assertion is plausible, if your heart is switched on.
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Meryl Dorey’s reply:
A story that hit this weekend’s Murdoch newspapers (Herald Sun, Courier Mail, etc) seems destined to leave most intelligent people asking – is this an early April Fool’s day piece?
Entitled, Become an expert is just a mouse click away (I guess subeditors on the weekend papers are not au fait with the rules of grammar?), this opinion piece, written by Mia Freedman, former Features Editor of Cleo magazine and Editor of Cosmpolitan (both hotbeds of scientific debate!) and current doyenne of the hip parenting site mamamia, explains why parents are just not smart enough to make informed decisions about health issues. Instead, they should just do what their doctors tell them and vaccinate for goodness sake!
In what must be one of the most glaring unintentional contradictions of this incredibly contradictory piece, Freedman says, “I’M not suggesting we become a flock of sheep or suspend critical thought.” followed immediately by, “But I don’t need to “do my research” before I vaccinate.”
Well duh! If you don’t do your research first Mia, may I suggest you open wide and say baaaaaaaaaa!
Because not researching what is done to you or to your minor children is worse than stupid – it’s irresponsible. Take it from someone who did NOT research this issue first (me) and whose child is still suffering as a result of that more than 20 years later. Researching first is the better and smarter choice.
Freedman is confused about why parents would ever think of questioning vaccination. She says, “I’m baffled by this growing sense that everyone has the right – indeed the obligation – to challenge facts that have been established scientifically, independently and repeatedly over years, even decades.” As if when it comes to a scientific issue, we have no right to ask questions. What Mia obviously doesn’t understand is that science is all ABOUT asking questions!
Where would we be if people did NOT question and research? Thalidomide wasn’t withdrawn for use in pregnant women because the medical community all of a sudden decided that maybe it was causing harm. No, it took many reports of serious birth defects and one very ethical researcher (who later paid for his moral decision to openly question this drug through persecution and loss of his license) who actually listened to the parents before government and the medical community finally did something – too late for thousands of children around the world who were born armless, legless and with other serious disabilities.
The same with mercury in over the counter medications and vaccines; Vioxx, Avandia and so many other dangerous drugs which, were health consumers to follow your advice and just do as their doctors told them, would still be harming and killing people today.
In trying to dissuade parents from looking at the benefits and risks of vaccination (Risks? What risks?), Freedman comes out with the following bit of brilliance:
While publicly pedalling its anti-vaccination message, the AVN cleverly makes it sound like there are “two sides” to the vaccination debate.
In fact, there aren’t two sides and there is no debate.
On one hand there is science and there is no other hand.
We were given brains for a reason and it is up to every parent to use their intelligence to make informed choices for their children.
I feel sorry for you Mia but more then that, I feel sorry for the children of parents who will read your piece and follow your advice.
For me, I will continue to research health decisions and speak with my doctor, chiropractor, naturopath or homeopath (depending on the situation) to get their point of view as part of a package of information I will use to make my final choice.
I’d rather be a lion then a lamb any day.
Oh, and I am not saying that parents who vaccinate are morons – parents who research this issue first and decide to vaccinate are every bit as intelligent as those who, doing the same research, make a different choice. But anyone who makes a health decision without knowing the benefits and risks from all aspects of the debate don’t just need the recommended treatments – they need to have their heads examined.
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What condition as a result of an adverse reaction is MD’s child suffering 20 years later? Genuinely interested to know.
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She claims sleep apnoea. No idea where it was diagnosed, or by whom, as a vaccine injury. There doesn’t seem to be any evidence that anyone but Meryl Dorey has made the causative link.
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Thank you Hank
I wish she would provide some justification for these wild claims! Maybe then, herself & the AVN wouldn’t be so widely ridiculed!
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AVN/Meryl? Justification of wild claims? SNIGGER!
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She’s uncharacteristically reticent about it. Sometimes mutters something about sleep apnoea.
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check out her site and read for yourself! AVN Australian Vaccination Network
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I did try that, however it’s conveniently closed for maintenance & an upgrade!
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Here is an even better rundown of the AVN. Fully referenced, of course:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Vaccination_Network
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The problem being… The resources online are limitless and knowing which is fact and which is fiction is close to impossible.
I agree – do your research, talk to as many professionals as you like – but google is a dangerous place.
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That “ethical researcher” later falsified research and was struck off the medical register.
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“Written by Mia Freedman, former Features Editor of Cleo magazine and Editor of Cosmpolitan (both hotbeds of scientific debate!)”…but the whole point of Mia’s piece was that she’s NOT claiming to be an expert on the issue…
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Has anyone had the experience where you have gone to visit your GP with a problem, only to have them research it on google and prescribe you with an antibiotic or cream or whatever?
I went to my GP not long ago with an issue and she read a wikipedia page out loud to me while I was sitting there, followed a few links and printed me out a page from another website. I was floored, didn’t know what to say. I was paying like $70 for this consultation and I felt like it could have been anyone, my next door neighbour, just sitting on google giving me advise.
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I’ve had this happen to me once. I went to one of those 7-day medical centres on a Sunday, and was appalled that the doctor printed me a page from Google and sent me out the door! Needless to say, I went to my regular GP the next morning, and while she confirmed his diagnosis, she recommended a totally different treatment for me based on other medication I was taking, and my medical history in general – neither of which the first doctor asked about. It’s a bit concerning.
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Point taken. However, I am convinced the doctor would have a list of approved / reputable websites provided by his or her educational institution or professional association, and this is where the info is coming from. IMO, a GP is *not* required to have all potentially useful information in their head – this would be unworkable! I have no complaints whatsoever if the information is obtained from a reputable, up-to-date, evidence-based source, whether that be a (recent or comprehensive!) book, peer-reviewed journal article, or website.
It may also be the case that he or she got the information that they found convincing from somewhere else, and then sought out something from Wikipedia written for a ‘lay audience’ for you. I would be grateful for this. I have a science background, but I’m no doctor! I’ve looked at medical journals, and would require a huge dictionary and a few spare days to make head or tail of your typical medical journal article (remember, you can subscribe to many academic journals online these days).
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You know when I was growing up some people believed in God and some didn’t. No big deal. No-one was ridiculing either side for their individual beliefs. People had respect for different points of view. They didn’t hammer their point across with insults and vilification.
I don’t believe in abortion. I believe it is murder but I also understand that a woman’s choice is none of my business. We have safe access to terminations to prevent the deaths of desperate women and infanticide. End of story.
I don’t judge people who decline cancer treatment, who divorce, who get married, who are gay … it is none of my business.
On a whole raft of issues I believe in individual choice. In an ideal world all children would be safely vaccinated but I would never take such an aggressive stand or give derogatory labels to those who dare to question.
Clearly there are still questions and concerns, otherwise there wouldn’t be parents who feel so strongly. And I’m sure that some of them even went to prestigious private schools and have degrees. Surely not all of them are so stupid they had to leave school when they were 16?
Last time I looked we still call ourselves a Democracy. Maybe we’re kidding ourselves.
MY CHILDREN ARE FULLY IMMUNISED but I defend the rights of parents to make individual decisions that sit right with them both before and after their child is born.
Anyway, at the end of the day it’s a trust thing. Pharmaceutical companies have stuffed up big time on occasions. People lose trust. Like any relationship, once trust is broken it’s very hard to win back.
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False analogies, I’m sorry. Our immunisation choices affect others.
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True. To vacc or not to vacc cannot be compared to a religious belief. We’re dealing with science or lack of it. Anti vaccers are considered like passive smokers by the pro-vaccers.
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No, we think of them like the guy everyone gives the money to to pay for a group meal of pizza, who goes to the cashier and finds that everyone has overpaid, and he doesn’t need to chip in – so he doesn’t.
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And then keeps the change.
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I’m all for freedom of choice too. Though the issue with people choosing not to immunise their children is, much like passive smoking, their choice impacts upon the health of other innocent people.
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Mel – perfectly said.
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Unfortunately, unimunised children can effect others. There’s evidence of that daily. So it’s a bit more of a blurry line in this case, should we be forcing people to immunise their children for the good of all society? It’s really hard to say and not something I’m brave enough to argue.
However I do believe that when, if, I have my own children I will be getting them immunised. I know I’ve had dozens of immunisations in my young life and am no worse off for it.
What happens when in the distant future there’s an immunisation for cancer? Will people say no to that?
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Well, there’s already the HPV vaccine that can protect us from the most common cause of cervical cancer… and since that virus can pass from boys to girls, it has been recommended for both boys and girls in recent times.
Yet another reason to read carefully, and do *thorough* research – I know some people think it’s ridiculous that boys would have a vaccine ‘against cervical cancer’. But of course, that’s not what it is – it’s against the contagious HPV, which can be passed between people, male and female.
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I don’t question a woman’s decision to have an abortion because it doesn’t affect me or my children. But when she decides not to vaccinate that decision is putting my children’s lives at risk. And I will judge her and make a stand against that because I want my children, and that of all Australian children, to be safe from illness or death.
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But if they’re vaxxed they should be right? No? Ha. This is such a joke. It must be a hard life walking about with such fear.. you best just stay at home and lock your kids away!
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I would suggest that the fear of immunisation side effects in a child is far less rational than the fear of a child being exposed to any of these diseases…
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Thanks, Re: Not Elle…., for demonstrating your astounding lack of understanding of population health, and efficacy rates, and risk v benefit decisions regarding health.
I guess all that “research” hasn’t helped you much.
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