Janet Fraser
BY MIA FREEDMAN Is there a more offensive term than ‘birth rape’? If there is, I haven’t heard it. ‘Birth rape’ is the extraordinary name some women use to describe a birth that involves medical ‘intervention’, even when it is done to save the life of mother or baby. I’m confused as well as appalled by this description.
When did doctors become the enemy? And hospitals? And medicine? And how have attempts to save the lives of mothers and babies become confused with violent crimes?
Lately I’ve noticed a worrying trend among some groups and individuals towards demonising the medical profession and it baffles me.
Between the anti-vaccination brigade at the AVN who believe immunisations are an evil conspiracy between scientists, doctors and ‘Big Pharma’ (big pharmaceutical companies) to make money and those who believe the same thing about other potentially life-saving procedures such as cancer treatment, there are some seriously disturbing beliefs out there that can have deadly consequences.
Which brings me to the Freebirthers.
Freebirthing is different to home-birthing even though both involve giving birth at home. A bit like the extreme sport version of birthing, freebirthers choose to give birth “freely” at home without the assistance of doctors or midwives. So there is nobody present who has any medical experience if things go wrong.
There’s an inquest underway this week into a free birth where things did go tragically wrong and ended in the death of a baby girl (her mother, a freebirthing advocate, claims the baby was stillborn). On freebirthing websites, there is much talk of ‘birth rape’ and ‘birth trauma’, as if hospitals and doctors and even midwives were somehow conspiring to harm women and babies.
Which is a concept so offensive as to almost defy comprehension.
Equally offensive to me is the idea that doctors try to make their patients sick – even kill them - so as to make more money out of them. And that pharmaceutical companies encourage this (allegedly by bribing doctors) so they can sell more drugs. There was a story on the weekend about a guest post on Miranda Kerr’s Kora blog by 24 year old Northern Territory cancer survivor Liana Werner-Gray who wrote about how it was possible to ‘cure cancer’ in 24 hours with fresh air and positive thinking.
Liana Werner-Gray
Ms Werner-Gray reiterated her beliefs yesterday. “People get sick and they think they have to do what the doctor says but it’s not always the best thing,” she told the NT News. “(Doctors) say to (consider chemotherapy or radiotherapy) but that’s because it’s a big, fat, money-making business,” she said.
President of the Australian Medical Association NT, Dr Paul Bauert, said Ms Werner-Gray’s comments posed “a real danger”.
“Feeling good about yourself, what you’re eating and how you’re exercising will all help your immune system but it’s not going to cure cancer,” Mr Bauert said. “If (Ms Werner-Gray) is suggesting those regimes (chemotherapy and radiotherapy) should be ignored, then that commentator is doing serious damage to cancer sufferers”.
While Ms Werner-Gray conceded that publicly advising people on how to treat cancer can be dangerous, she said “it’s (her) duty to humanity to tell the truth”.
In defending the post (before it was taken down) a Kora spokesperson worryingly said that contributors were free to express their “opinions and personal research”.
Personal research? That’s deeply disturbing. Where does ‘personal research’ differ from ‘false hope’, ‘dangerous misinformation’ and ‘fairy stories’?
Where on earth did these people get it into their heads that medical professionals are out to kill and ‘birth rape’ us? And what effect do their wild claims have on vulnerable people who are desperately looking for credible information and hope?
Comments
429 Comments so far
After reading all these comments, and I mean all of them, I have come to terms with my decision to have an Unassisted Home Birth. I am not holier than thou, I am an average woman. I am not unintelligent, I am enrolled in college in pre-med now. I am not unloving, I pretty much love everything. I want to give my child the best start in life and that’s why I would never go to a hospital for my birth. Hospitals are for the sick, injured, and dying. As far as i know, pregnancy is not a disease or illness. No one in that hospital helped make my child, and none of them is going to take care of him when he comes home. They aren’t going to raise him, nurture him, or watch him grow. Why would you want some stranger holding your child? Laying on a bed in stirrups while the whole room gets a peek? Really? Maybe I’m just a prude but my husband is the only one allowed down there. I respect doctors very much, but I respect myself even more. I love me. And unless you skipped biology, or phycology, the flight or fight instinct is alive and well. When a woman is frightened, her uterus turns white, it is devoid of blood and makes labor pretty much impossible. Research has shown that even having someone watch plays games in your subconcious that makes birth harder. I didn’t invite anyone into the bedroom when the baby was made, and I definetly don’t want anyone but my husband in the room when our baby is born. I want to give my baby good vibes, confidence, and love. I can’t do that when I’m drugged, I can’t do that when I’m anxious or stressed, and I can’t do that if I do not believe in my own abilities. I am not afraid. I am well prepared. And I apologize if my views contradict those of others. But I refuse to believe that millions of years of evolution is wrong, that the very fabric of what we are is wrong. We may be human, but from all the intervention I’ve seen and read about, it’s pretty sad when something so natural gets turned into something so mechanical. I do believe in whatever floats your boat. And I know that free birth is not for everyone, I respect that. I am choosing to do what is best for me and my child. What’s next? Going to the gyno so you are allowed to have your period? Calling the gastro every time you need to defficate, just in case you burst something? Rushing to the ER for a paper cut so the can give you a tetanus, antibiotics, and gauze pads? Sometimes things are just plain loony if you ask me.
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Please tell us how your “freebirthing” plans worked out for you.
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I’m sorry Mia, but this is such a niave, not to mention one-sided article you have written. I heard you on the radio this week and was outraged at what you were saying. Why has a natural way of life become such a bad thing? I find it very offensive that you would compare Liana’s personal research to ‘fairy stories’ or ‘false hope’. You’re basically implying that exposing your body to radiation and shooting it up with chemicals is the only way to treat cancer. If this is true, why are there still so many deaths from cancer? Maybe it’s time to look into a different way of going about treatment? I’m not opposed to the medical system, but I do believe it is trusted by society too much. Nowadays, an illness automatically means ‘medical treatment’ is what’s going to fix it. How about addressing the cause of the illness first, naturally? We need to start encouraging people to look into health and wellbeing for themselves, rather than just believing what is fed to them by the government. You mentioned in your radio that ‘science is fact, and there’s no other side to it’. While this is true, we are only being shown the ‘facts’ that will benefit the medical system, when there are so many more out there which would stand to object it. Why is it that people who choose to live their lives naturally are constantly being referred to as alternative, or health ‘freak’s, or hippies, and now even ‘dangerous’. Tell me, how is nature dangerous? It seems your ‘personal research’, or lack there of, into the matter is a lot closer to ‘fairy stories’ than Laina’s.
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Well der. Of course we hope there will be better, less toxic ways to treat cancer in the future. But there is nothing naive about realising that radiation and chemo are the best ways we have now. Of course a lot of people die of cancer for many reasons – they’d die no matter what treatment they tried and to imply that they might be saved if they drank some magical potion from a homeopath is plain insulting to cancer victims. Trying to treat it naturally IS dangerous because THEY DON’T WORK. At least if you try conventional treatments you have a chance of survival. Chemo and radiation saves A LOT of people. I know who is naive here and it is not Mia.
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Um, if natural therapies (i.e. eliminating the toxins that cause the cancer in the first place from diet and detoxifying the body and supporting the healing process with vital nutrients and antioxidants) don’t work, ever, then how did Ms. Liana heal herself in precisely that manner?
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Mostly agree. Such a sensationalised article that I found tried to pack a punch with it’s headline however failed on substance. I get there are dodgy doctors but the minorities behaviour should never become the expectation. Yet it always always does.
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I really don’t understand why women obsess so much about how they bring their children into the world. If they get here without damage to either mother and baby then that’s a good thing, surely? Who gives a flying f”#@% whether it was by caesarean or vaginal delivery? I just thank God that I was born in an era when medical help is effective and available. Move on ladies – the birth of your baby is only the beginning!
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I read this post today on the KORA blog and thought it was interesting. It looks like a response (albeit understatedly inferring) to the Liana Werner Grey article – http://www.koraorganics.com/blog/live-in-my-skin/all-things-organic/organic-certification/to-our-valued-readers/
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Some thoughts in response to Mia’s article:
I’m surprised at Mia’s apparent naivety around distrust of the medical establishment. For someone who calls herself a feminist, she seems to accept the dominant discourse of this patriarchal profession rather too blindly for my liking.
I wish people would remember that gentle, natural birth (when possible and safe) has benefits for the baby as well as the mother. Wanting to achieve this kind of birth is not selfish or narcissistic! The problem is the bio-medical establishment (and evidently, wider society, even other women) does not provide enough support, to labouring women and to midwives.
I find it offensive that people find the term ‘birth rape’ offensive! A woman labels her own experience, not someone else. Anyone else notice how we all seem to assume that a woman who labels her birth experience ‘birth rape’ has never experienced ‘real’ rape? In fact with the rates of sexual assault as they are it’s more likely that she has, and she is perfectly qualified to compare the two.
When I had my child I was aiming for a natural birth but due to ‘slow progress’, posterior position and lack of dilation I had an unplanned caesarean. The doctors and midwives of the city hospital were all very respectful and gained my consent at every point (because this was possible and it was not an emergency) but I still feel a sense of loss and a level of trauma, so I can’t imagine what it must be like for a woman when things are taken out of her hands in a disrespectful way.
It must also be remembered how vulnerable a woman is during labour. Though I gave my consent for the caesarean, what other choice did I really have? I was just one woman up against the whole medical profession. Even in a post-birth debrief with the doctor the power imbalance is huge. It is this power imbalance that forces some women to undertake possibly dangerous births at home, and to make other strategic choices to avoid that other patriarchal institution, Community Services.
This issue is not about individual women making selfish choices, it’s about our patriarchal society not respecting women and not giving enough time, effort, funding and thought to the business of birthing.
Just to let you know, I am not a ‘freebirther’ (though I support more resources for homebirth) and I am pro-vaccination! : )
I
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While ‘rape’ has come to be synonymous with its legal definition of sexual assault, it remains, by definition, a word that means ‘a violation’ e.g. ‘a rape of the land’. Whichever way you interpret it, I would hope that fellow-women would empathise with the trauma some women experience due to non-consensual violation of their vaginas by medical staff while giving birth. I don’t think the term ‘birthrape’ is used as a blanket synonym for medical intervention, as you suggest. It refers to unwanted and forced intervention (done under the protective blanket of a birth culture that uses the agenda of a “safe delivery” to disregard the mother’s experience).
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It’s very interesting to hear the accounts of women below who feel they’ve been ‘birthraped’. Some of the scenarios might fit the legal definition of rape, some wouldn’t, but are still clearly very traumatising, very rape-like experiences.
It certainly sounds like this is a common enough and specific enough experience to deserve a term. And in very specific circumstances, maybe ‘birthrape’ feels accurate to the women who’ve experienced it. For other women, the term sounds inappropriate and offensive.
The problem is that because it doesn’t seem to have a strict enough definition, the term ‘birthrape’ has been expanded and used to describe a whole range of experiences that, while traumatic and not consented to, are far from rape.
In many circumstances (eg “I wanted a vaginal birth but had to have an emergency c-section to save my baby/my life – I was birth raped!!”) the term is used inappropiately and offensively. It inappropriately compares necessary/reasonable medical intervention with rape, and it unfairly demonises medical practitioners.
So my question is this: Is there a definition commentators can agree on in which the term birthrape would be acceptable?
For example, one that excludes necessary medical intervention. One that possibly specifies the kind of penetration relevant (eg vaginal but not c-section)? One that clarifies whether the women’s subjective experience or the doctors intent or both that is relevent?
I think it would be useful for such a discussion to be had, and some kind of consensus reached on whether it is ever an appropriate term and if so, in what circumstances.
MM, would you consider asking someone to write a piece on this? One that could generate such a discussion*?
*A discussion, rather than a hate-tirade. It’s obviously a very sensative topic that people get understandably worked up about, so setting a purpose for the discussion would be useful.
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google and google scholar: “birth rape” “birthrape” Birth rape PhD”
You will find these are not uncommon terms. there are definitions. it’s in the midwifery and obstetric literature.
janet fraser nutbag she might be, did not coin the term.
lets not forget it was NOT very long ago that “rape in marriage” did NOT exist. legally that is.
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Thanks for your response Anon.
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excellent
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Another well written post Mia.
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I am very educated in the medical field but I am not a doctor and the more I learn, the more I know, that I don’t know. What bothers me about freebirthers is the belief that ‘personal research’ can be equal to the education and training of an OB. I am sorry for people who have had OBs and midwives who have been very bad at their jobs. I think they should be reported and not be used to blanket the entire system in the same light. Years of university work, undergrad and post grad, and I am still not as educated as an OB. The thought that this can be summarised with enough confidence to be your own health care provider in a situation as unpredictable as childbirth is just arrogant. To sit back and say, I can handle whatever comes. I am now educated enough to identify when this situation is potentially life threatening for me or my baby, because I have done ‘personal research’, is beyond arrogant. There is no other way to categorize it other than extremely reckless. There comes a point where freedom has to take a second seat to the safety of a child.
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yes
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Although we are intelligent beings we don’t necessarily need medical assistance to give birth just like the many rabbits out there who are having no problem at all.
Of course we run the risk of death but if freebirthers want to take that risk then it’s their choice. It’s also their choice to not feel violated.
FYI, I gave birth in a hospital and didn’t think twice when told i’d be induced and my waters would be broken by the dr.
Each to their own. Let’s just respect it.
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It is a nice sentiment to, ‘let’s just all respect each other’s choices’, but it is important to remember that our children are not ours. We are simply temporary custodians until they reach maturity. Making reckless choices that cost their lives is no longer just about freedom of choice. In the same way we as a society, do not allow people to neglect their children, we should not as a society allow the neglect of an unborn child. I get that this is a hard line to make, the difference between the best interest of a child and removing freedom of choice. But allowing a baby to die from a lack of medical care in a first world country should not be acceptable as fitting in under a banner of freedom of choice.
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And what of the baby’s right to get urgent medical care????
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Because our ancestors started walking our pelvis has changed over the years to adapt to this. This has meant that the journey to the outside world has become more perilous for the human baby. The pelvis is narrow (comparatively) for the relatively large head and the baby must corkscrew out. THe human baby is born relatively immature compared to an animal, that quite often can walk soon after birth (our pelvises have traditionally been compared to those of sheep, google the pictures). This is why we need birth attendants. To compare this to an animal that lives on its four limbs is foolish. For the record, animals die during birth too.
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Mia, I in no way agree with freebirth and it’s certainly not a choice I would make.
But you are not correct when you say that “birth rape” is just a term used when women don’t like the fact that there has been a necessaryintervention in their child’s birth.
I had diagnosed PTSD after I gave birth to my son. I had discussed without my OB that I didn’t want forceps – there are risks to the baby – and if it came down to needing them, would want a c-section. I’m not anti-intervention, I’m certainly not anti-drugs, and I definitely had no wish for a home birth. Despite the fact that we’d discussed it, I wad held down while the doctor inserted forceps into my vagina, cut an episiotomy (which I had also said I didn’t consent to – there is plenty of solid, medical evidence that tears heal better) and paid no attention while I cried and kept saying no.
I quite frankly don’t care if people don’t like the term – I feel what happened to me was rape, and I’ve also been raped by a man – the birth rape was far worse. It went on for longer, it was more forceful, I felt more helpless, humiliated and degraded. Other people don’t get to tell me what words I can or can’t use to describe that experience.
I don’t think doctors are the enemy – I think for the most part, doctors save lives. Nor would I choose a free birth . But dismissing women’s bad experiences, saying we don’t have the right to call birth rape birth rape, and belittling it as just being a bunch of hippies who didn’t want interventions is firstly just plain wrong, and secondly is one of the reasons why some women, instead of dealing with their experiences, reject medicine altogether and head down the path of insane choices like free birth.
It took me more than five years, and a bunch of counseling, to get over the PTSD that birth rape left me with – please don’t tell me you have the right to define my experience and I don’t.
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By the time the baby needs forceps it is an emergency- to far along for a c section. The episiostomy is needed to get the forceps around the babies head quickly enough so you both don’t die. the don’t yank them out unless they are stuck and they do it very quickly as it is an emergency.
Itmust have been traumatic but sometimes these things happen. My sister had a similar emergency and her babies heart stopped so they yanked hi. Out pronto so he would die.
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It was not an emergency – baby’s heart rate etc was fine, he wasn’t stuck but he was posterior, and the doctor wanted to turn him using Keilland’s forceps. Very far from an emergency, actually. not every situation is the same.
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That doesn’t mean the Doctor didn’t see a risk of the baby becoming distressed quickly. They should have told you that forceps are not used until you are too far progressed in the labour for a c-section, but I’m sorry it is not rape. The medical staff made a decision based on the wellbeing of your baby, not just for kicks. You need to just move on and realise you got a healthy baby out of it when it could have ended badly with him being upside down. He could have been only a short time away from becoming stuck and distressed and it is reasonable to suggest that they turned him around to prevent that. Look at the bigger picture and try not to be so melodramatic about it.
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Rubbish – we had discussed this exact scenario because of the position of the baby, he had agreed that if the baby didn’t turn during labour, I would have a c-sec, not forceps. He then ignored my wishes, ignored my lack of consent, there was no medical emergency or anything approaching one, and as I had had feared, he injured my baby with the forceps during the 45 mins it took to get him out, and later admitted he should have done the c-section. You don’t know what you’re talking about, and it’s pretty offensive to tell someone who’s ended up with psychological damage because if how they were treated to stop being “melodramatic”
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What injuries did your baby end up with from forceps?
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If the experience was so bad, report him, sue him, do something about it. As long as you are not making it official, so it can be examined by other trained professionals, you are just quessing. Unless you too are a trained OB and know all the ins and outs of the reasons for each and every decision made, you are assuming based stuff you have read. Report and have it examined for malpractice and then you can say he was wrong. Until then, you are not trained enough to know.
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I am sorry for your experience and although it is traumatic it has to be understood that the word rape holds implications not just for the victim but for the person who is being accused of committing the act. This is why birth rape is NOT an appropriate term. Rape is not just defined by the victims experience, it is also defined by the intentions of the doer. By using the word rape, it is by association, putting doctors in the same group as rapists. I am sure there are other ways of expressing this that do not paint doctors as sexual deviants in the process. Janet Fraser made this term up and deliberately used the word rape for the shock value. If you believe that most doctors are about saving lives then surely it is not acceptable to label them as sexual deviants to prove a point.
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Janet Fraser didn’t make the term up, it’s been around a lot longer than that. I’m sorry you don’t like the term, but you don’t get to define my experience for me – the doctor ignored my lack of com sent, ignored me crying and saying no while he shoved forceps into me. That’s not normal behaviour as far as I’m concerned, so if you want to label that as deviant (although I think sexual rape is also more complex than men just being sexual deviants) then so be it.
Once again, I do not think all doctors do this to women – I am not labeling the profession that saves lives, I am labeling the one doctor who hurt me.
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I’m sorry darlin, but Janet Fraser DID make this term up. Do a basic internet search and you will find it. And being the narcissist that she is, I am sure would be upset at not getting the credit for her much loved, made up, little term that she flashes around for a reaction.
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Thank you for sharing your story Anon. I am sorry to hear what you experienced. No woman should have to go through that and especially not when they are welcoming their child in to the world. Did you make a complaint to the hospital or health commissioner/ ombudsman about your treatment?
Mia – had you considered providing the contact details for organisations who can assist women who may feel they need to talk to somebody after reading this page? You could also provide the contact details for how women can make official complaints about their treatment by health care providers.
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Michelle, I complained to the medical board, which did absolutely nothing – the complaint was dismissed. I then successfully sued the doctor for my PTSD. My lawyer said to me that her experience was that there was no point in women complaining about treatment to e medical board, as the doctors on the board almost never uphold complaints about their fellow doctors. Self regulation is a failure. I certainly complained to th hospital – ditto. And I don’t believe there is a medical ombudsman.
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Google “medical ombudsman” :
http://www.abc.net.au/health/consumerguides/stories/2003/02/20/1837237.htm
If you successfully sued, what did the doctor say was the reason for using the forceps rather than a Caesar if that’s what you’d both agreed to do?
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No answer, huh?
I wonder how good your lawyer was if you believe there isn’t an ombudsman. Especially when a quick google shows that there is.
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She said she successfully sued her doctor so I imagine her lawyer was good enough. I suspect she has stopped answering to all (not just yours) replies because she has met a very hostile response when sharing her story. I don’t blame her at all.
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Hi Anon,
I just wanted to let you know how awful your experience sounds and how sorry I am to hear about what you went through. Unfortunately, this seems to be one of the worst places to share such a story as most of the commenters seem to come from extremely conservative backgrounds and have very little sensitivity. It must have been quite difficult for you to find the courage to publicly share your story and the harshness with which some people reply would only make you feel worse. Not to mention the dismissive tone of the original article.
Just wanted to let you know that not every reader thinks you are being ‘melodramatic’. I for one feel very angry and sympathetic for what you must have gone through and wish you nothing but the best xo…
Furthermore, this article could have provided the perfect platform for birth rape victims to share their stories in order to help others understand where the term comes from and how their experience is equivalent to feelings of rape. Instead it has just encouraged hostility and ignorance which is so disappointing.
After all, the Macquarie dictionary defines rape as the act of forcing someone to consent to anything against his or her will. Which is exactly what happened to you and countless others.
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Agree
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Hi Anon,
I am really sorry to hear about your awful experience. I also know that it must be hard to talk about on a forum like this where people are certainly showing thier insensitive sides. I also had a very traumatic birth of my first son which resulted in diagnosed PTSD. I made some comments earlier about it. Your thoughts on the free birthers match mine perfectly. It is an insane choice, one that I would never choose and yet I can see how they got there with current attitudes.
For every women who makes such a radical choice as free birthing from a traumatic birth there much be 100′s of women like us who also had truly traumatic experiences who did not move into radicalism but tried to move on in healthier ways. Another lady below talked about how as she could never put herself through that again and therefore she would choose to adopt instead. The free birthers are the extreme but visual tip of a massive iceburg of damaged women traumatised by the current hospital system they trusted. I believe there needs to be a through overhaul where the reasons for birth trauma are examined and steps made to change them. I also feel there needs to be more discussion so society is more accepting that sometime a birth can be both joyful and horrific all in one. Currently it is a very difficult thing to talk about and I think many women don’t as they fear being judged.
And for all of those who believe that traumatic births are the result of unrealistic expectations, I did a lot of reading, watched alot of real birth videos but nothing would have prepared me for the way I was treated during my emergency c-section. Sometimes you just have to learn the hard way.
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I believe you and I am sorry.
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thanks Nak
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“…dismissing women’s bad experiences… is one of the reasons why some women, instead of dealing with their experiences, reject medicine altogether and head down the path of insane choices like free birth.”
So very very true. THIS is why I have sympathy for Janet Fraser.
I’m sorry that the replies to your post have done exactly that – tried to dismiss your experience by looking for ways to defend the very actions that traumatised you.
I think it makes some people feel safer if they can disbelieve you. To acknowledge what you’ve suffered makes them feel vulnerable. That is sad for them.
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Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is an anxiety disorder (DSM-IV) and some people will develop it after trauma.
The birth of both of my children involved some trauma – one was an emergency caesarean, the other was an elective caesarean. I feel uncomfortable and sad when I recall the traumatic moments of each birth, but I have the choice to not dwell on these memories. People with PTSD do not have this choice – they cannot choose to forget.
Perhaps we could all be just a little kinder to each other and stop trying to win the “my birth story is just as bad as yours” argument. My heart goes out to anyone whose memory of their children’s birth is so traumatic that they can call it “birth rape” – I’m sure it’s a term that is used with a heavy heart.
I personally do not understand why people choose “free birth”. In Australia we have a very low rate of death during childbirth because medical intervention is available (for most women) in cases of emergency during childbirth, and the response time is much shorter if there is a medical professional (doctor or midwife) present during the birth.
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Thankyou Sharon for your empathy and understanding. You are exactly right, a person with PTSD has no choice but to dwell on the traumatic moments that caused it to happen. This is the heart of the disorder. They can not move on, not without help.
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You’re welcome
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Just reposting my comment. During the c section birth of my first son my OB allowed medical students to perform internals on me without my consent. I had a spinal and was unable to move at the time a midwife told me what was going on. The feelings of violation and trauma were so strong I have spent the past few years being treated by a rape psychologist for post traimatic stress disorder. I feel that the term birth rape fits what happened to me. I would be interested to know what yuo wouyld call it.
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And it wasn’t so long ago that the Royal Women’s Hospital in Melbourne was exposed for carrying out internal examinations on women under anaesthetic without their knowledge or consent (and indeed on women who weren’t even in hospital for gynaecological conditions.) When the whistle was blown a doctor attempted to justify the practise by saying that “students had to learn.” That women sometimes require internal examinations does not invite or justify a free for all.
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Oh Lou, that is so incredibly awful and disgusting. I really feel for you and hope your sessions with a psychologist are helpful.
Thankyou for sharing your story. I hope that your post opens the minds of many readers and the Mammia team. What happens to you was so incredibly wrong, I hope that the OB responsible has been held accountable.
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As a person who has given birth and also unfortunately been sexually assaulted, I believe the term birthrape is disgusting. Call it birth trauma or something along those lines rather than misuse a term that should NEVER be misused. It’s insulting to victims (not all, everyone has their own views) and to doctors and midwives.
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Strongly agree with you on this one.
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I have had both happen to me – obviously you were lucky enough to avoid birth rape, I wasn’t and will continue to call it birth rape until my dying day. I have a point of comparison, sadly, and it’s in no way misusing the term.
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I’m also a victim but not of birthrape yet I don’t find the term disgusting or offensive. As a victim, I can imagine and empathise that such a thing could happen. I’m glad you make the point that you’re not speaking on behalf of all victims.
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Dear Anon:
No I would never speak on behalf of all victims as everyone’s experiences and feeling differ a great deal
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The posts also raise questions about the notion of ‘informed consent’. When I had treatment for cancer (months of chemo) it was extremely difficult to try to make informed decisions about doses, frequency or methods of treatment. In some cases I required emergency blood tranfusions, with no time to think clearly about what I wanted. How can someone with no medical training make an ‘informed’ decision in an urgent, life or death situation?
At some point don’t we have to trust in our health carers to give us the best advice?
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Some of the comments raise some interesting issues around a mother’s right to make decisions that may be seen as endangering her child, and issues around the rights of an unborn child. This made me think about my own inbuilt assumptions and reactions. My first thought was that it is selfish and silly for a mother to begrudge any medical intervention that might save her child. The most important outcome is a physically healthy mother and child. But I have always thought that while I’m not sure I could ever have an abortion, I deeply believe in the right of a woman to choose one, and to have autonomy over her own body, even at the expense of the right of the unborn child. So perhaps this same reasoning extends to birth choices too?
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I generally like the Kora Organics blog, but some of the articles they have on there on the healing power of positive energy, and the negative descriptions of medication and doctors leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
Yes, along with traditional medicine, these things can help (positive thinking, organic food, exercise, ect) but to promote them as a “cure” is dangerous and irresponsible.
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Ummmm, does anyone remember The Butcher of Bega?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeme_Stephen_Reeves
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I do Nikki. He delivered my third and fourth children and two of my nieces. When I was referred to him I found him engaging and warm and my baby was born within a hour of arriving at the hospital in the most wonderful labour imaginable. I raved about him and put the lives of my SIL and sister in his hands and he nearly killed one and traumatised the other. We were young, inexperienced women and we put a life threatening hemorrhage down to bad luck and trusted that he knew what he was doing when he had his foot on the end of the bed as he ripped another baby out with forceps (to the objections of the attending nurse). My fourth baby was vacuum extraction and I can still hear my screams of agony. I have no idea what he was doing but some part of my brain knew it wasn’t right.
I also have my suspicions that he was the doctor involved in a disturbing incident at a public hospital during my second pregnancy. I was given a very rough and through internal at four months. He then turned to another doctor and said, ‘your turn.’ After they had finished he said, ‘You might miscarry after that.’ and walked away.
There are a lot of very bad doctors out there and the influx of overseas ones has increased the problem. Over the last ten years I can document a dozen incidents where they have been neglectful and absolutely not up to scratch.
Having said that, the clever and wonderful doctors far outweigh the cowboys but we must have a healthy skepticism and ask questions.
Neither myself or my SIL and sister shunned the hospital for the delivery of subsequent births. As hideous as our experiences were the safety of our babies was always foremost in our minds and homebirth was never an option.
I walked straight into the Obs office when I found out I was pregnant in my early 40′s and told him I was having an elective c-section and it was absolutely fantastic.
We have to dispell the myth that doctors are all knowing and above questioning. The nurses must be free to speak out when they witness unprofessional behaviour.
And we need to be in touch with our intuition. If something doesn’t feel right then it probably isn’t.
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Anyone who knows about a doctor or nurse’s unprofessional behaviour shouldn’t be afraid to report it. The nurse who finally blew the whistle on dr Jayant Patel had to go on stress leave, such was the pressure on her. A colleague of mine worked there for a time and said that all the surgical nursing staff and his own colleagues knew how he was a a practitioner and the nurses complaints were as a rule, ignored. Whistle lowers are generally unpopular.
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Healthy questioning/investigation/skepticism is good. Being well informed is good, not just taking the opinion of one health professional, whatever their position (conventional/alternative/trained or not). Taking responsibility for our own health and decisions is good.
Sometimes (not always) birth is over medicalised, and procedures are recommended for convenience rather than neccesity, and can (but doesn’t always) lead to a string of complications.
Vaccination is widely accepted as ‘safe’. This does not mean risk free. Some people/children are poorly affected/become ill/die as a result of the proceedure. The government and medicos recommend it for the purposes of ‘herd immunity’. There are some people who never develop immunity to an illness through vaccination, their bodies simply don’t react and create antibodies as expected. Immunity levels also deplete over time from artificial immunity (vaccination), rather than naturally acquired immunity (actually coming in contact with the disease).
For a balanced view, with unbiased scientific research see
http://www.vaccinationdecisions.net
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“For an unbalanced view, with biased cherry-picked research see conspiracy theorist and anti-vaccine lobbyist Judy Wilyman’s site.”
There, fixed that last line for you Vic.
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Very defensive. Why? Are you against people reading all available info and making their own educated decisions?
Maybe you’d prefer if I softened it and said ” for some research not widely publicised”, or ” to add to the information presented by government”
All I am for is availablilty of information, and educated responsible decision making by individuals.
Each to their own
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Please, please, please stay on topic.
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Two things are key to this whole debate. The first is the point about women having unrealistic or rigid expectations, identified by Feline (below). There are some women who have strict ideas about how they want or expect their birth to go – I’m sure we have all encountered them at our mother’s groups. In these situations it would seem that there is often little a doctor can do to change these womens’ minds. They can provide them with all the medical and scientific facts, they can provide all the warnings and scenarios attached to taking this or that course of action, but at the end of the day the woman has the final choice. Fortunately these women are in the minority, but they must be the cause of such frustration for doctors when they are clearly risking the health of their babies.
The second and related point is education, which other commenters have touched upon already. If a woman receives proper pre-birth counselling, has the chance to discuss all of her fears, her birthing preferences, has the opportunity to understand the possible scenarios and likely interventions, etc etc, it has to go some way to preventing the trauma that some women feel after their birth experience. If the counselling occurs in conjunction with her doctor or midwife, in a calm atmosphere of mutual respect, then it gives both the chance to understand each other – and surely that is better than trying to make decisions in the heat and pain of a full-on labour emergency situation.
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Doctors are humans to! If you don’t want medical intervention and would rather die so be it.
I had 2 normal vaginal deliveries with the help of midwives. During my 2nd birth the placenta got stuck and had to manually be removed unless I wanted surgery or it to be left inside of me.. I was advised what needed to happen and asked for permission.
There was no question in my husbands mind or my mind that this was birth rape lol it needed to be done. If you dont want medical attention don’t get it, but if something bad happens to you don’t try and blame someone else. People today seem to always look for someone to blame.
Who cares if doctors make some money, it’s their profession we all go to work for money…
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Agree with every word wholeheartedly. Well Done Mia.
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just to add… Education is key with Birth and there is nowhere near enough education about the realities of birth for those who are first timers. Childbirth and Labour is secret women’s business due in part to the fact that it is quite impossible to believe what it could possibly be like for an individual from someone else’s perspective. I completely understand why so many women have a traumatic birth experience and it is in part due to lack of education, and in part due to wanting to be in control of a situation that neither you or the doctors have very much control over. There are definite ways to make the birth experience happen more smoothly and to empower yourself but the simple fact is that sometimes you have to hand it over to nature and just go with the flow. It is good preparation for being a parent really and perhaps a life lesson as I don’t really know too many babies that are that easy to control and who will do absolutely everything on their parents scheduling.
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Completely agree. It seems that no one ever tells you the reality of birth for fear it will be too graphic or whatever, but considering that the majority of women will go through it at some point in the life that seems like such a silly stance to take. I gave birth on Friday, and as a young mum I’ve told each and every one of my late teen/early twenties friends every detail of the birth. Nothing can prepare you for the enormity of even a problem-free vaginal birth, let alone a birth with complications. I think if someone is able to learn about sex, that should hand in hand with learning about birth. That goes for guys, too!
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Could not agree with more Caitlin and I gave birth in my very late 30′s (not by choice).
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Well you were asked and presumably gave your consent. This is not what people are talking about when they refer to birth rape.
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I would like to clarify that when I worked in a tertiary, public, obstetric hospital it was made very clear to us as doctors that the position of hospital, and of our medical defence organisations, was that no medical interventions were allowed without the agreement of the mother. Even if the baby’s life was in imminent danger, no doctor, midwife or otherwise is allowed to forcibly impose an intervention on a patient. The mother gets to decide what happens with her body, and that includes refusal of casarean section when the medical staff consider it absolutely necessary to save the baby’s life – yes, the mother is allowed to make a decision to refuse treatment even when she has been informed that her baby will die as a direct result of her refusal. Most women actually love their unborn child so they don’t choose this path – most, not all. The best we could do was explain the situation and the urgency as best we could and hope the mother, often will input from her family, would make the right decision. The issue is SO complicated though, as many women are out of their minds with pain, or are high on pethidine and are not capable of consenting, or arguably, refusing treatment. We were given a hypothetical scenario (based on reality) – what to do when a patient comes in with a written, signed, witnessed birth plan stating ‘I do not want an epidural and am not to be given one, even if I’m begging for one’. The same woman is now in the throes of labour and demanding an epidural. What to do? We were told to disregard the birth plan and give the patient their requested epidural. The justification? That the woman could not give ‘informed consent’ in her birth plan because she was not informed as to the true nature of the pain of labour when she made the plan. To refuse would be unethical and invite complaint. To comply would also potentially invite complaint. When a woman enters an obstetric hospital full of unrealistic or rigid expectations, our job is infinitely more difficult and stressful. Increasing numbers of women like this can make working in obstetrics and obstetric anaestheisa a misery and is why I got out.
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Agree so much… but how to stop people from having unrealistic and rigid ideals? That is the question. It is in part the fault of media coverage of issues like freebirthing.
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The birth plan should really be a wish list only.
I think part of the problem is that we don’t see labouring women anymore. The first we see in labour is ourselves quite often. Some antenatal classes show films of actual births and some series like the excellent “one born every minute” (uk version) show a pretty realistic image of childbirth in Australia. I reccomend those pregnant for the first time watch it.
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I agree Faybian – I loved ‘One Born Every Minute’, that show was fantastic. Unfortunately, the first series started just after my first was born, so I didn’t get to see it as prep. I used to cry at every moment of birth, so amazing.
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I devoured pregnancy magazines and read as many birth stories as I could get my hands on – I was under no rose-coloured illusions of what birth would be like. THere are so many real accounts of births not going to plan, no-one does themselves or any mum to be any favours denying or sugar coating the experience of birth.
The month before I gave birth a colleague of my friend lost his wife and baby as a result of amniotic embolism.
As a result, my birth plan on entering hospital for my first consisted of “do what you have to do, ( but geez, I’d really, really like not to have to have an episiotomy if at all possible)”
What transpired was one weeks bedrest, followed by an induced labour, including a medically warranted epidural that I had hoped not to have to have, but had to to reduce blood pressure, AND a vacuum delivery (without an episiotomy, love you Dr. J!!).
Despite intervention, it was a great birth, I totally put my trust in the OB and midwives every step of the way.
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damned if you do… damned if you don’t…
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I have read quite a few comments regarding how birth is not just all about the baby – it is about the mother too. Therefore, decisions that mothers may make about the birthing process need to be respected irrespective of what the outcome is (ie. baby and/or mother, dead/alive). To give some of these fellow commenters the benefit of doubt, I suspect some of these comments were made to elicit empathy from other commenters who are firmly in the “just get over it, at least you and your baby are alive” camp.
However, comments regarding respecting the rights of mothers (possibly to the detriment of the child) got me thinking about how this reconciles with what I expect many mothers would say – that in an extreme hypothetical situation where the lives of both mother and child are at risk, the mother will always sacrifice her life for that of her child. After all, how many times have you heard a mother say, when presented with the hypothetical, that she wouldn’t hesitate to throw herself in front of an oncoming bus just to push her child out of the way…and how if both her and her child are drowning and only one can be rescued, she would immediately say “save my child” without thinking…and how if her child is diagnosed with a terminal illness, she would say “why can’t it be me who gets the illness?”, or if she could, do some kind of deal with the devil just so her child lives.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and assume that freebirthers and those who insist that the mothers rights should be respected equally, if not above that of the yet-to-be-born child will also not hesitate to put the lives of their child above theirs in the above extreme situations. If that is the case, why then, when it comes to birthing, are they so adamant about respecting the rights of the mother, even to the detriment of the unborn baby?
Or are these people the ones who, when faced with the extreme situations, say “well, hang on a minute, I am a human too, I deserve to live as much as my child, and I don’t think it will work out that well for me if I threw myself in front of the bus to save my child. Yes, I love my child more than life itself, and so on, and so on, but I really don’t want to suffer serious permanent injuries or any serious post traumatic stress by throwing myself in front of a bus. So I’m just gonna hang back, if you don’t mind”.
Seriously, this does my head in. I just don’t get it. Insisting the rights of the mother be placed ahead of the safety of the child…why during birthing only? Would you seriously not hesitate to swap your life for that of your child if it came down to that? If the answer is yes, then extending this thinking, why would you not do anything possible to ensure that your child comes out of your body alive?
Is it that the child is still someone ‘unknown’ to the mother before birth? That because they can’t put a face or personality to the baby, or because they have not had the chance to look into the baby’s beautiful eyes and know that they would love the child more than life itself, that it is somehow ‘easier’ to put mother’s choice above child’s life? (is this how Janet Fraser can think that a c-section is more traumatic than a dead child?)
I don’t want to trivialise birth trauma or any post traumatic stress that may result from a very traumatic birth, I really don’t. But at what point does your PTSD or mental scarring justify putting mother’s rights above safety of baby? I also understand that people who suffer from mental illnesses/disorders do not necessarily have the capacity to make rational choices therefore the debilitating fear of hospitals or medical assistance may cause the mother to insist on freebirth even though it may have a bad outcome for her and her baby. But does this mean they are right?
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Thank you for not trivializing the power a traumatic birth experience can have. I am not sure if some of this is aimed at me as but as I have recently commented on having ended up with PTSD after my first child therefore I wanted to clarify my position. I do not support free birthing in any way. my child’s safety was always at the front of my concerns. most of what I was so upset about was I was traumatized in a needless fashion. Not because I had a emergency c-section but the way it was conducted and my treatment by the hospital for the 8days after I was stuck there. I don’t even blame most of the individuals but rather the way a public system is organized. I did not let my PTSD get in the way of my second baby’s safety. I faced my fears and chose my hospital better. I consider myself to be a fairly strong person, a sensible person. to have come out of my first birth so messed up makes me feel for others who may not be able to over come their fears. the current medical system is shutting down birthing options. Home birth midwifes can no longer get insurance to practice. this leaves some women feeling like they have no choice but to free birth rather then face the system which so damaged them. also it is worth noting that many of these women think thier c- sections were unnecessary and they were betrayed by the system. i don’T think that choice is right. however I believe we should look at these stories to try and fix what is wrong with the system rather then dismiss them as crazies.
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I had a horrific birth experience. I wont go into details as I don’t have that much time on my hands with my (thankfully) healthy toddler. For me, a lot of the trauma was a lack of education on what REALLY happens when you have a baby. I had no Idea and still had no idea when i got to the delivery room. SOME of my trauma however, was a result of the wrong choices of my midwife. I don’t dwell too much on this as, like I said, the only thing I have time to dwell on is my child.
I understand that some women could be put off when it comes to having a second child. I sure am. Me and my husband DO NOT EVER want to go through this again. But rather than choosing to put a baby at risk by shunning the medical intervention of trained professionals, we have chosen to adopt.
Free birth in my opinion is playing Russian roulette with a life, and for any sane person, the stakes would be just too high.
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I don’t understand how if an experience is so horrifying they want to go back and do it again. Or is it using your next baby to prove you can? Strange.
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Personally I don’t feel like I need to prove anything to anyone.
But I can totally understand how a woman can use their experience to feel more empowered for next time.
Just don’t be so empowered, you feel like you can do it yourself!
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I get how you can use an experience to feel empowered too. I got yelled at for suggesting that’s actually what people need to do – work through it and move on. I just don’t understand if someone’s *that* traumatised, why they would go through it again, and why they would make it more dangerous for themselves.
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I imagine there is a huge percentage of women in the transition phase of labour who say “Stop, I want to go home now”…..Didn’t make anything the OB deemed a requirement from that point on for me birth rape in any way shape or form.
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We were told it was what midwives expect and it lets them know (among other things) that you’re IN the transition phase.
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Stay out of this …. women have a right to choose how they give birth (or raise their child), it’s not for anyone else to comment or pass judgement. Just because your way worked for you doesn’t mean that’s the way it has to be for everyone. We all have a choice and that’s the beauty and strength of our feminine mysteries.
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While we’re at it, why don’t people start calling CPR ‘mouth rape’ since no consent is given at that time? Calling medical intervention to help save the life of a child and mother a form of rape is a disgrace and insulting to women who have actually been raped. Full stop.
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Kate, I totally agree. Calling it ‘birth rape’ is insulting to ACTUAL rape victims. It’s a term that should not be used.
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What a load of crap! This is the whole reason why people can sign a DNR form, or have it registered on medical cards they carry in their wallets. Do Not Resuscitate! If Doctors do resuscitate, they can be legally sued. It is a legally binding document. People have a choice!
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Wow – this is a hot topic. As an Ambulance Paramedic and a mother of three small kids, I have many views on this topic. I feel we live in a world now where it is assumed that mother and baby will always be ok during delivery. And people go forth and make decisions based on false confidence. In my immediate friendships I know of 2 stillbirths, 1 complicated delivery that led to baby’s death 4 weeks later, 2 deliveries that ended in the death of the mother and left grieving fathers to raise their newborns. And that doesn’t include what I know from my job.
My profession is what made me determined to have my children in a major hospital where I knew we were close to all required facilities if needed. Like many, my first delivery was very average. 52 hours. The fatigue was what got me. But after one inexperienced hysterical nurse ran out of the room freaking about my daughters rapidly lowering heart rate, the fact that I lost my OB to the screamer across the hall and my mother had one leg, and my husband the other when it was time to push with no one else in the room, I did wonder where all my private fees were going. But when the OB did suddenly appear and suctioned my girl out with such force (with one foot on the bed and heaving downward with all of his strength, I’m still not sure how her head is attached to her body) I knew I was in the right place. We both potentially could have died. I was not asked for any consent. It all happened so fast. I agree with others that you are not in a frame of mind to be making decisions. Earlier in my labour my OB told me I was having an epidural at the 40 hour mark as I dissolved in tears and felt like a failure, because I had turned blue, was cold and had no energy to endure the contractions. It was the best thing he could have done at the time. Unfortunately these events do not always call for delightful tales to be told years later, but at least you’re all alive and healthy.
FYI – I used a different OB for the nxt two as I was not happy with the lack of attention I got, but I never felt that the wrong thing had been done by me to keep both myself and my now 6 year old safe.
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And did those families have to endure their mothers/wives or children being part of a media frenzy because of the tragic outcome of their birth?
Homebirth families are on the front page with the news cameras filming through their lounge room window. Can you imagine how that would be for the families you know who suffered equally tragic losses in hospital of mothers and babies?
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I admit I didn’t enjoy my hospital experience for the birth of my first child for various reasons, but at the end of the day, I came out of it with a healthy baby and that’s really all that matters. I had a few upsetting experiences, but I figure she’s not going to remember them so I put it behind me and got on with our lives. As much as I didn’t enjoy my first experience, I didn’t hesitate for a moment to have my second baby in hospital also (although a different hospital). I can relate to people being disappointed with their birth experience, but really what I would call a traumatic birth experience is losing your baby or having a very ill baby. I don’t care what happens to me, as long as I come out with a healthy child. Personally, I couldn’t live with myself if I birthed at home and something went wrong, knowing that if I had gone to hospital my baby might have been saved..
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Pretty sure my ob had better things to do than to come in at 5am on her holidays to “birth rape” me. What a stupid term. Did I want my vagina cut (episiotomy), NO, would anyone? Did I (and the dr’s) want the baby out – yes. As much as I didn’t want my vagina cut, would I call it “birth rape” absolutely not! My dr was wonderful and yes, I too am offended at the term, when the dr went out of her way to deliver my baby, as I am sure every other ob/dr does the same.
Free birthers, get over yourselves for once and for all, and give your children the best possible start to life, and to me, that is a safe delivery.
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I have asked this further down but will ask it again: when fingers or implements are placed inside a vagina without the consent of the owner of that vagina, what do we call it? Is it only rape if it is violent? Or if it is in a non-emergency situation? When does it stop being rape and start being life saving?
Is it rape if my doctor decides to hurry things up (no lives at risk here) by manually dilating my cervix while I cry stop stop stop? Is it rape if a midwife wants to know how far along I am (aGain no lives at risk) and examines me while I am held down by others? Is it rape if I am cruising along in a comfortable labour and my ob decides to break my waters with a crochet hook after he has told me he is just having a look? At exactly what point does it become rape? Or is it never rape if it’s a medical professional?
I agree this term many be used too frequently, but to deny it is ever appropriate? Surely not.
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I would have thought lying in a hospital bed in labour with your legs spread could reasonably be taken as implied consent to the doctor and/or midwife to what it takes to safely deliver the baby – do you want to debate everything with them? Equally, where else on your body would a doctor be expected to head when performing a pap smear? Some people just get too worked up about things. Move on I say.
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And I’ve asked too – why would you not consent to a midwife doing an internal to see how things are going?
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How come no-one can answer this question?
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All of those things you describe might be traumatic at the time, but at what point do you decide you know better than the doctor or midwife what is a necessary procedure? How do you know that no lives are at risk? What makes you the expert on whether or not the baby is at risk or showing signs of distress when the doctor makes the decision that you need to be manually dilated?? What makes you think the doctor would do that just for kicks? What would happen if the doctor stopped dilating you manually just because you said stop (OBVIOUSLY this process is going to be painful and you would want it to stop) and then something happened to the baby because he/she didn’t speed things up when their professional judgement was telling them it was the right thing to do? Can you say negligence? A doctor may not be perfect, but they have a job to do and they can only make judgements as they see fit at the time, even if it might seem unnecessary to the woman.
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ah shall i upload my birth summary?? at no time was my baby in distress during the “manual dilation” episode, the dr didn’t claim the baby to be, the notes didn’t show her to be, there was no rush and in fact the dr went home after doing it expecting the birth to take hours still. I would love to see the reasoning behind it but like many others didn’t take up legal action due to the cost and stress. and because we are told that a healthy baby is what matters not a healthy mum.
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“When fingers or implements are placed inside a vagina without the consent of the owner of that vagina, what do we call it?”
I called it saving my baby’s life.
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My goodness when did we all become so self righteous? We are all right because it is all our own experience. Free birth may not be for you MummaMia but it’s not wrong. People can feel that the medical profession is evil and again its their opinion. Is it wrong? No its their prerogative to feel this way. If a woman finds exercise and good mantra’s cured her of cancer then who are you (or the medical profession) to question this? My Uncle was cured by prayer – his Oncologist even admitted it was not his treatment (that had been given up long before prayer was administered) that saved him. He had no explanation other than a miracle. How is it that only medicine can be right? I think – PERSONALLY – that articles like this assume the public is stupid. That no one can possibly think for themselves let alone do research to make an informed decision. And to poo poo medical rape is offensive.
JS has clearly been subject to both a horrifying experience and in any other path in life this would be classified as rape. Because a doctor preformed it with full consent and support by other medical professions (but not his patient) then isn’t this a mob mentality.
Really are we all so stupid? Can we not believe that someone else is right and so are we at the same time – because what it all comes down to is BELIEF!
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I have checked this with my husband, who is a doctor and medical educator, and I believe the legal definition is that it is assault (if it is a verbal intention to do something without consent) and battery (if it is actual physical contact).
Those who coined the nonsensical term ‘birth rape’ will probably cling to their use of the term because, let’s face it, it incites exactly the type of disgust they intend it to. What good does it serve, though? Perhaps, if a woman feels she has been assaulted / battered by a doctor’s actions during the birth process, she should undertake proper legal action, rather than throw around insulting and hysterical accusations on a blog site. At least then the doctor in question would have the right to defend themselves, to explain why they acted as they did in those particular birth circumstances.
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Careful Deborah, don’t you know that asking someone who does the work for a living isn’t good enough? Research involves going on websites that operate in an echo chamber of complaint and going by that rather than asking someone who actually does the job as a professional. Or that’s what I was told at least for asking my midwife sister about midwife stuff.
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That’s not what I said to you on the other post at all – that’s a complete and utter misrepresentation. What I said was that by asking one person, you just get one person’s opinion- which is just that, a single opinion. It’s not evidence, and it in no way negates the opinions of women who’ve had traumatic experiences. And I didn’t point you to any websites, so at’s just an out and out lie
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It was a professional’s answer to my question. I didn’t claim it was evidence that traumatic births don’t happen. You really want to go down the misrepresentation line, Anon?
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If I wanted to make shitloads of money and be allowed to rape women I’d play professional footy, not study medicine.
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Like!
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Imagine how well a footballer who was also a doctor would go.
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This is brilliant!
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As someone who works in AFL I find that INCREDIBLY offensive
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What confuses me is the focus many women have on the ‘birth experience’ and go on about their ‘birth trauma’ without mentioning their baby at all. In my mind, isn’t the whole point of getting pregnant to have a healthy baby not a ‘birth experience’?
I for one couldn’t care about how they got the baby out of me, as long as my much wanted children arrived safely. Couldn’t give a x about my own ‘experience’ I just wanted to meet my bub and hold him in my arms. Whether he arrived to the tunes of whale song and the swish of a birth pool, or the hum of a surgical theatre – couldn’t have care less. I just wanted him.
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Yes, how uplifting it must be for Janet’s kid who was born alive as the result of her Caesar to hear that Mum found the freebirth of a dead baby more satisfying than the “birth rape” resulting in them.
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My thoughts exactly. People should be grateful to have heathy babies not worried about their own experience. It’s not all about the mother
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this is such a simplistic viewpoint so lacking in compassion or empathy. you are not alone, I am astounded how judgemental so many women have been in the comments from this article. Women who have birth trauma are not upset because they didn’t get whale songs or candles. I have had two emergency c-sections, the first was completely horrendous, it would not have been good no matter what, but how a major maternity hospital treated me was what made it truly traumatic. You mention just wanting to meet your baby, well mine was taken away for over three hours, not because of any medical necessity but because there is no midwifery staff in the general recovery room where I was taken after hours. They didn’t even tell me they were taking him or where I was going. I was just suddenly alone. This was really just the beginning but I won’t go on. The big public hospitals really need to spend some effort on continuity of care. It makes such a difference. the current system isolates patients from the staff so they rarely see each other more then once.
My seond emergency c-section (in a small suburburn hospital) was a little disappointing as I wanted to birth normally but I was still happy to be safe and have my bub. The staff treated me with dignity and respect, I felt trust as a result and was calm through the whole time. I was much better post birth too and bonded with my son easily.
I don’t usually mention my eldest son too much when talking about my birth trauma as I prefer to separate it in my mind. I do not want the horror of that time in my mind when I think about my beautiful son. This is not even a new experience, this happened over 8 years ago and still has the power to make me upset. Please try to be compassionate to others, just because your birth was not traumatic does not mean that others were not.
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Wow. Judgement?!
How do you know my birth wasn’t traumatic? It actually was. Emergency caesar, alone in recovery, developed post natal eclampsia, couldn’t b’feed and much more. The fact is at the end of the day my much wanted baby arrived safely, and he is all I cared about, not myself or my experience. I could have chosen to dwell on all that went on in relation to the birth. I just chose to focus on the fact that everyone involved did the best they could and that resulted in me having a live heathy beautiful bub. Why do people want more than that?
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I don’t think people want to dwell on the trauma they have experienced, only they find they can’t help it. And what if some of your trauma was avoidable? and not only avoidable but actually not that difficult at all to avoid? Wouldn’t you be angry? I didn’t choose to dwell on what happened for my birth, I ended up with post tramatic stress disorder, which means those bad moments constantly replayed over and over. I had no choice. Eventually with counciling I overcame it and moved on. None of this was my choice and it made the first year of my sons life evry difficult as I was really sleep deprived from replaying it over and over. I am glad this didn’t happen to you. As I have said in earlier posts to people can have the same sequence of events and survive it completely differently. the way they are treated during that time makes a huge difference. All I am asking is that people on this website not dismiss or belittle birth trauma. Sorry if I judged you.
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Both of my births required some form of medical intervention, and in the case of my second pregnancy, my baby required multiple blood transfusions while still in the womb. The blood transfusions sometimes were scary and uncomfortable – imagine a needle the size of a knitting needle being poked into your belly and being jiggled about until they find the umbilical cord, and then “bounced” to penetrate the umbilical cord. But the births were worse (in one case I tore badly and was stitched up without anasthetic), and I felt shellshocked afterwards.
However, I am so thankful for the medical professionals who helped me give birth. It’s because of them that I have my two gorgeous, healthy kids today. Yes, there were aspects of the births that were traumatic and could have gone better, and there were times that staff could have been more considerate, but at the end of the day I have my kids and that is all that matters.
I don’t doubt that some women have truly awful births that are extremely traumatic. But becoming a parent means putting the needs of your children above your own. That includes putting aside your personal preferences for an intervention free birth in favour of the safe delivery of your child with all the medical resources available on hand if it goes wrong. Yes, sometimes things go wrong in hospitals. But look at how many times medical intervention goes right and saves babies. It’s not worth the risk.
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I often have a go at my children for using the word rape when it is not appropriate, I ask them, how would a victim of rape feel about you saying that?
My question though is, if the mothers associate their children with something as destructive as the word ‘rape’ implies, how does that impact the maternal relationship? Do they fixate on the birth and resent the child for needing medical attention? How will the child feel knowing that their introduction to the world was not a wonderful occasion, but a trauma to their mother?
http://yveblogs.wordpress.com
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As a member of some of the websites that deal with Birth Trauma I can answer you to a degree. it is very difficult for these women, I know of many of them who associate thier childs birthday as aniversary of their trauma. They try to hide it and soldier on for thier childs sake, They tear themselves apart with guilt and confusion. They all love thier children deeply despite it all. They can’t talk to thier friends or family as people don’t understand. It is nasty and destructive and very very sad. I am very glad this didn’t happen to me. I
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Those women need some therapy rather than continuing to suffer what they perceive was “trauma”. Oh and ‘their’ is the correct spelling.
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I am sure it was just a typo… ‘there’ is no need to be nasty!!!
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My favourite expression is ‘build a bridge and get over it’. In these cases look at the children and be grateful they’re here
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Yes I agree they could do with some counciling. Most of them were trying very hard to “build a bridge and get over it” Unfortunately it is not always so easy as we would wish.
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would you tell someone suffering from depression and suicidal thoughts to “Build a bridge and get over it”???? Because PTSD is a mental ilness, and if this is what these women are suffering from. What if it was your daughter/sister/girlfriend????
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If the bridge doesn’t work then a kilo of cement might help. For heaven’s sake, we live in Australia. No matter how bad our birth experiences were we should be singing with delight and crying in appreciation. If you have a healthy baby in your arms then nothing else matters.
I’m sure if we all dwelt on things and over analysed situations then we could all be in therapy.
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Many women who use the term birthrape for their birth experience have also been raped in the traditional/sexual sense, including me, and still choose to use the term.
My rape, many years ago, was a result of being plied with alcohol and raped when I was too drunk to consent (at the age of 16). There was no violence as far as I know. Until relatively recently this would not have been called rape either. If anyone commenting here would still like to argue that THAT isn’t rape, I despair.
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THANK YOU MIA! For once someone is sticking up for the people who dedicate their lives to helping others. My husband, father and grandfather are all Doctors. Many of my dear friends are doctors. I find the suggestions of the AVN and the Freebirthers to be insulting and baffling. I hate to break it to you people but my husband gets paid the same amount whether you decide to accept his help or not. There is no such thing as “kick backs” from the Pharma companies, in fact under new rules in Australia they soon won’t even be able to give him pens for free.
Cancer: My grandfather has terminal cancer. He as a doctor, has chosen radiation as his treatment (at 89 years of age) my father supports this, so does my husband. They also support him using complementary natural therapies to try to support his body. If chemo and radiation was some big “money making” wrought do you think he’d make this choice?
In regards to the “freebirthers”- I think “mothers rights” have been blown far out of proportion and babies rights to safe deliveries have been forgotten. It’s time to recognise what’s important- a healthy baby and mum. Whether that happens surrounded by doctors, tubes and beeping machines or in your own home is irrelevant. Demanding to have it your way and risking your child’s health, in my opinion, is selfish and ridiculously precious.
You may think this is harsh but my husband has witnessed (and been a part of) complicated deliveries in hospital where babies have JUST made it through, even when the mothers where 100% confident they had ‘uncomplicated’ births ahead of them. He has also been involved in attempted resuscitations on 2 babies that were attempted home births. These babies did not make it. That is the reality, if you do not use the safety nets that modern medicine offers you, you or your baby may fall and God forbid if there is no one to catch you.
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I am sorry, but I find the radical thinking of the so called “Freebirthers” deeply disturbing.
I have had 4 children,2 of which would not be here without the medical intervention I had to safely bring them into the world.
I have the utmost respect for the Neonatologists and miracle workers that brought my precious youngest child back to me when he was born with a lack of oxygen at delivery in an otherwise very normal labour.
Suddenly his heartrate dropped and my husband notified Drs who where straight onto the problem,began prepping me for a ceaser though thankfully my body responded and our little boy was born ,very quickly,and dark purple!
The moments that followed will be forever ground into my memory as the scariest of my life!
Thank god the team at Nepean Hospital put my angel on ventillation when he was 1min old…and saved his life!
The following 2 weeks were like a fog,a surreal dream as we watched endless procedures,tests and scans to see why this occured.
Our son was expected to have brain damage due to the lack of oxygen in what was thought to be only a 20min period ,it caused him to have Neonatal seizures and things were looking very worrying when having given 3 types of medication they were still happening.
By some form of miracle, and but for the amazing team at Nepean,we now have a very healthy,cheeky 3yr old.
We support the local ozwac charity that researches womens and babies health and do wonderful work improving access to ultrasounds in remote areas and investigating reasons behind misscarriage to name only 2 of many divisions they have,and are strongly supported by the local community.
Going through what we did was a life changing experience for us.
It made us better people but could’ve been very different without the incredible Drs there who perform these miracles every day!
God bless them all,they have our respect our admiration and our eternal gratitude!
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If the term birth rape is offensive – in Venezuela – there is a legal term ‘obstetric violence’ that midwives and obstetricians can be prosecuted for.
Obstetric violence may include:
- Untimely and ineffective attention of obstetric emergencies;
- Forcing the woman to give birth in a supine position, with legs raised, when the necessary means to perform a vertical delivery are available;
- Impeding the early attachment of the child with his/her mother without a medical cause thus preventing the early attachment and blocking the possibility of holding, nursing or breast-feeding immediately after birth;
- Altering the natural process of low-risk delivery by using acceleration techniques, without obtaining voluntary, expressed and informed consent of the woman;
- Performing delivery via cesarean section, when natural childbirth is possible, without obtaining voluntary, expressed, and informed consent from the woman
Details here –
http://bit.ly/IzVFL7
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Wow Michelle! What a fascinating document, thank you for that link. Great term to use and good to see it being acknowledged somewhere in the world.
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Well that must make Venezuela a great place to live then.
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If this is the case, then Janet has ‘birth-raped’ herself – ‘Untimely and ineffective attention to obstetric emergencies’. Not really enough to say she’s not a doctor, because apparently she did all the ‘research’ required to make the decision to birth in the way she did.
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Thank you Mia for this post.
I too found the posts worrisome at first. However I honestly believe this is a very small amount of people who are just making a lot of noise and do not represent the view of society at all.
In my profession, as a Pharmacist, I have not noticed a decrease in the number of people asking for advice/help.
In four years, I have only ever encountered one person who i would say is very ‘anti doctors/medicine’. This lady eavesdropped on a private conversation between myself and a patient and then tried to tell the patient I was feeding him lies and that I was paid by ‘big pharma’ to sell him that product and that he should use some natural crap she was recommending. (Ha! If that was the case I probably could afford to live closer to my principal place of practice in the inner city). I calmly told the lady that my recommendations are based on my clinical knowledge attained at university and not because someone has told me to sell something.
Anyway, I can only speak for myself (although I believe it is true for most health professionals), I studied for 5 years to get where I am. Sleepless nights, stress and hard work. I would never, ever risk my professional indemnity, my career, my reputation and my 5 years of hard work to make a quick buck (that wouldn’t even go in my own pocket anyway as I work for a group). Health care is about harm minimisation! I would never give someone something that I thought would jeopardize their health.
I became a pharmacist because I loved science, i loved maths and I enjoy helping others. To think that even a few people would think of me as a fraud or a con is disheartening. For me, the main perk of my job is satisfaction that ive made a difference to someone’s life.
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Sharons,
Sure you studied hard (I did too – for 8 years, but not in a field where I give advice which will ultimately affect peoples lives for the good/bad), but I think the main issue people have with people like yourself who regurgitate what you are told, is that you are not exploring alternatives to prescriptions/phamaceuticals. I am all for modern medicine/surgeries/antibiotics when they are vital, but it is a commonly known fact that doctors overprescribe (Problem 1), patients overvisit doctors (Problem 2), Patients see 1 doctors opinion as gospel (without even bothering to get a 2nd opinion) (Problem 3). All the hard studying you did is useless as it doesn’t provide a balanced education. There is so little time spent on nutrition (the actual cause of so many illnesses in modern society) and I do praise some medicines for providing ‘solutions’ but the real effort should be focussed on curbing people’s unhealthy lifestyles/diets. Our governments/health system make it too easy for fat and unhealthy to rot and put an unnecessary strain on our health system.
Sharons.. “my clinical knowledge attained at university and not because someone has told me to sell something.”
I think you’ll be quite alarmed to see who funds a lot of these ‘clinical studies’
There has been plenty of media coverage lately on Suisse…spruiked by huge names in Australian sport, but really do people need these magic vitamins? Why not just have a healthy balanced diet? These companies are making a fortune of what can only be described as quasi-studies. I would respect your opinion far more if you had a somewhat greater balanced view.
I’m open to your thoughts. northsydneypark at g mail dot com.
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Arthur – with respect I think you are making some very very broad and convoluted points that are out of Sharons’ area of expertise.
She is not responsible for the lifestyle choices made by chemist customers…..
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You said yourself you are all for necessary medical treatments. How do you know that the medicine being prescribed in this case wasn’t such a necessary treatment? Sharon gave us no details about what exactly it was that the patient was ill with. How dismissive to call her naive when you don’t even have all the facts. There isn’t always a conspiracy at play for goodness sake! And to say that all patients over visit doctors is a ridiculous generalisation…
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Hi Arthur
Thank you for your comment! I appreciate what you are saying.
I definitely agree with you when you say that diet is responsible for so much. Unfortunately, I am not a nutritionist or dietician. I can however point people in the right direction. The other day for example, i was having a chat to someone about their diabetes and cholesterol and lifestyle advice was the first thing I threw in there. I also recommended he see his diabetes educator and ask his GP for a referral to a nutritionist. My field of expertise is drugs. It’s what I know best. I recognise where my limitations are and always, always refer when I am in doubt.
I think you may have misunderstood when I used the word ‘clinical’. I wasn’t referring to clinical studies. Clinical knowledge is an umbrella term I use quite often with my patients, colleagues, interns etc. It just basically means my therapeutic knowledge.
I also hope that I don’t just regurgitate what I studied. I’m sure many people would agree, with any university course, it gives you your basics but it’s up to you to elaborate on that. I base my recommendations on many factors; what I learned during my B Pharm and what I am currently learning through my post graduate research, on my bibles (AMH, Therapeutic Guidelines and to a lesser extent MIMS), feedback from customers, feedback from other health professionals and personal experience (I cannot tell you how many products I have road tested myself, because I like to know what it would be like for a patient/customer to use).
Also, i am not against natural products. Although, there are only a few that I am confident about recommending (that is I am confident with the clinical data and I have had results with them in the past). I’m fortunate that I have a nutritionist/naturopath working with me, who I bounce off of all the time.
Lastly, I am dead against celebrities spruiking pharmaceutical products. To be honest, I hated when Hayley Lewis did those Nurofen commercials as NSAID’s or anti inflammatories are not suitable for everyone.
I appreciate any feedback or any other concerns you may have about my post.
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Arthur E, ever heard of nutritionists? They often work for govt depts trying to get the message out to everyone about the role of good food and health. Or dietitians? They provide individual eating plans for people dealing with health and weight issues. Perfect examples of primary and secondary health at work. Guess what? They study at uni too? Are their views “useless” too?
Sharon is a pharmacist. Her sphere of work is probably more secondary and tertiary health BTW.
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Lets not pretend all pharmacists are ethical. if they were the wouldn’t be selling unproven homeopathic crap, they wouldn’t be told by owners to push certain products as they are on a good deal. They wouldn’t be forced to work in unethical environments with high script turn over and little support staff.
I do not doubt your integrity but let’s face it the industry as a whole has been losing it’s focus during the last decade. The reality the guild have the main voice in pharmacy not the professionals who enter the profession making it an odd playing field these days.
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I was going to raise this point. All due respect to Sharon of course, but I went to the pharmacy the other day to pick up some hydrolyte because my 3 year old was vomiting, and the pharmacist suggested a homeopathic remedy. I told her the placebo effect wouldn’t work on a 3 year old….. and she has the gall to call herself a ‘health professional’ !!!!!!
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Hi Sarah,
I am really sorry for your experience that you had. I always encourage people to find a pharmacy/ pharmacist that they like and trust, that way you won’t have to rely on some strangers advice.
This comment also applies to amandarose who commented above, some customers really want homeopathic treatment. I am against homeopathy but I have some customers who don’t want anything ‘pharmaceutical’ but I have no choice but to give them what they want. I inform them of what homeopathy is ‘heavily diluted strains of ingredient’ and that there is no good data to support their use. I have to respect their wants and needs and if I’ve given the, the information I can’t force the, not to use homeopathy.
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If homoeopathy wasn’t sitting in pharmacies masquerading as legitimate therapy perhaps there would not be such a demand for it, and you could sleep at night knowing you are not flogging magic potions.
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Hi amandarose,
Thank you for your comment.
I agree with you, I unfortunately have met a few pharmacists over the years who I believe are money minded, but we’re not all like that. I always encourage people to find a pharmacy/pharmacist that they trust and to use that pharmacy primarily for their health needs. It’s easy for the general population to lose sight of our role when you are just getting an occasional pill, antibiotic, or Nurofen Plus but we’re actually a valid source of health information, we’re also free and accessible.
As for selling unproven homeopathic crap, I agree with you, it is crap, but there are people out there who will refuse to use anything else. If a customer wants to use a homeopathic product, I will warn them that the product doesnt have sufficient evidence behind it and it is so dilute that it is impossible for it to exert an actual therapeutic effect, but people will still want it and i cant force them not to use it, all i can do is provide them with information. Most people seek homeopathy for things like stress anyway. I think it would be far and few between who would actually recommend a homeopathic remedy for an acute condition.
Also, I certainly don’t push products because I get a good deal on them. I only take deals for products that I usually recommend. If I get a good deal on Zyrtec for example, I don’t then recommend Zyrtec purely on the deal. I would get the deal because Zyrtec is a natural seller and then continue to recommend Zyrtec as I usually would, in situations where i thought it was the most appropriate product for the customer. Pharmacists buy in on deals that suit us, we don’t change our advice to suit the deal. I think that’s important to remember.
Finally, there are some really good pharmacists out there, I have met some amazing ones who are doing great things for our profession. They’re hard to find, but we exist!
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I’ve recently asked a LOT of questions when getting stuff from the chemist, the pharmacists have all been great explaining stuff to me (I’m always worried about effects on breastfeeding/KDot via breastfeeding) and also been confused by dosage instructions recently, and it was no trouble at all to call them and get them to explain it all to me again.
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Like most people I’ve had good doctors and lousy ones. The worst ones are those with a God complex who act as if they know a patient’s body better than the patient and simply will not listen. One doctor saved my life when my child was born. Another misdiagnosed me when I had post-partum hypothyroidism (diagnosing post-natal depression, prescribing meds). Two doctors, two specialists and a dietician had no answers when my weight plummeted to 42kg after a bout of gastro and I became intolerant to practically all food (alternative medicine prevailed there). Nowadays I look to both sides of the medical tracks when looking for answers. Swings and roundabouts, really. Personally, I believe more people need to take the time to listen and respond to their own bodies, trust their instincts and not blindly turn them over to the medical industry. That’s way too much trust to give and, inevitably, it’s sure to end in tears because modern medicine doesn’t always have the answers.
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I’m sorry, but this denial of what modern medicine does to women is sickening – it is “rape” and more women should speak out against what doctors (who are mostly men, or controlled by men) subject women to.
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Hi Adelaide,
Very strong statement there. Could you please clarify how modern medicine rapes women?
Thanks.
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It uses its power over them in the form of “knowing what’s best” to manipulate them into submiting to treatments that they have no realistic way of consenting to. You could hardly say they give informed / true consent. As a consequence they end up having their bodies violated in the name of medical science.
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Huh? Who what where when why?
This is so vague.
In my own experience, I have not found that doctors want to violate me in the ‘name of medical science’.
Back in the day, medical practitioners were quite paternalistic…I’ll admit that some of the stories my mother tells me are alarming…very “dr knows best, no questions”. But in all these stories, the doctor did have the best of intentions and was trying to help.
These days it is a different world. Thanks to indemnity issues, doctors are very fond of informed consent.
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Spoken like a true man……..more women need to stand up to men like you.
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Adelaide- you sound like you just have an issue with men!!
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Wow Adelaide, you’ve got some issues.
“more women need to stand up to men like you” WTF??
I am just glad (insane) opinions like yours are a small minority and no one here is agreeing with you.
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Bahaha! Wrong again. I’m no man.
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As a female doctor having spent over 10 years studying medicine and my specialty I find this highly insulting and narrow minded.
No competent adult in Australia is forced to seek medical attention. How dare you suggest we ‘violate bodies in the name of medical science’.
We give up so much of our personal lives and destroy our own relationships to help other people live, and to realize, its for people like you…
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Who decides I ask?…….who decides???
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They do “know best” as they have delivered babies before and have gone to university and studied medicine for years to be able to practise in a hospital. Arguing any different is ridiculous. Calling the successful delivery of a heathly and living baby ‘birth rape’ is completely insulting.
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Your comment is offensive to all women and men who have been raped. Putting it in “inverted commas” doesn’t make it any less offensive or acceptable.
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Spot on – Thanks for posting – giving me hope that real women are reading this blog.
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You can’t be serious!? Birth rape! Please! To each his / her own and all that … me? I was 110% for sticking that big, fat needle in my spine, but I’m a Western medicine girl from way back. BUT that’s just me! Seriously though – birth rape … takes it all way, way too far! Hmph! Alli x
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One of the things I don’t get is, some of the stories you read are horrific, so why do these people have the time to blog them, write them etc but not consult a lawyer? Health Services Commissioner? The college of obs and gyns?
There are systems in place to protect people. Systems fail, which is where other systems kick in. Why do so few people utilise these systems?
Big fan of doctors and big pharma and grateful to live in a world where they exist and are well enough funded to keep us all living longer and healthier.
Also grateful to live in a world that when anything fails, there are legal recourses.
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Doctors aren’t evil but I know that I say they are when I’m working with them. We definitely need to listen to them, and they always have the patients best interest at heart but they really need to take a hard look at themselves. I’m an occupational therapist and I’ve had doctors dismiss my opinion because they are arrogant or don’t understand. Doctors need to do what Occupational therapists, and indeed what many other allied health professionals do – consult with the client to understand their needs and use the all the health team to create collaborative, and let’s face it, the best possible care for clients. This is the only way to result in a win-win that will keep people from turning to the extremes we are seeing.
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Firstly, I can think of many, many more offensive terms than birth rape, most involve vulgar and crude connotations about women and/or their anatomy. It may be a difficult term to understand or relate to, but it is not offensive.
Secondly, When publishing this article http://www.mamamia.com.au/parenting/home-birth-campaigner-dies-during-birth-of-second-child/, readers were urged to remain respectful when commenting, something I remember thinking was an admirable request at the time. However, the article I am now commenting on contains very little respect and I feel the tone encourages readers to be inflammatory. This I do not find admirable. Janet Fraser may not have made a choice you agree with, but she is a real person who must be going through the most horrendous time of her life right now. Furthermore, whether you agree with the term or not, many women come out of birth feeling violated and powerless and your article did nothing but discount these feelings. I hate to think how ostracised and belittled your article would leave many women feeling. You would not say to a rape survivor ‘but you got through it, so be thankful of that and stop complaining’. Yes, hopefully these women have healthy babies at the end of their ordeal but that doesn’t mean they can just forget the trauma. Of course the medical profession aren’t evil and of course they are just trying to do what is best for women and their babies, but it doesn’t mean they get it right every single time.
Thirdly, I enjoy reading your articles about feminism, a common theme of which is a woman’s right to choose. In Australia, it is unfortunate that when it comes to giving birth women have very little choice. Perhaps if regulations made safe home birthing more accessible, there would be less need and less instances of freebirthing.
I can only imagine the negative comments my thoughts will generate, however I urge everyone to read this article where a balanced opinion is given in a far more articulate manner than I could ever achieve. I particularly like the last line: ‘Instead of judging each other, women should work together to create the best maternity care system Australia can deliver across all locations – hospital, birth centre and home. Our babies deserve that’.
It would have been great to see less judgement in Mia’s article.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/some-home-truths-on-a-womans-right-to-choose/story-e6frezz0-1226320013302
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Thanks for posting this link
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Totally agree, guest. Mia had the opportunity to genuinely ask why some women might be led to compare their birth experience to rape, and what might motivate a mother to shun medical care during pregnancy and birth. Instead, the questions were purely rhetorical for the purpose of heaping judgment on other women without any attempt to see them as human just like us…
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I work in allied health and probably 1 in 3 patients who I see will complain to me about the abuse or negligence they’ve encountered from various medical practitioners. Rarely, their concerns are (seemingly) appropriate, but the vast majority of the time the issue is just completely unwarranted. It wears me down…I just want to shake these people sometimes and say “Don’t you realise how lucky you are to have free access to these amazing specialists who are trying so very hard to help you. All you do is whinge that it’s not good enough!” Perhaps they should try living in a third world country and see how they like the health care there.
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Most consumers of healthcare will only ever experience the very tip of a great iceberg of a system of practitioners, auxilliary staff, equipment, facilities, funding and masses of consumable products.
Around the 1990′s, the healthcare professions became aware of the suffering of people that was caused by the system itself. It has borrowed from other industries such as the air travel industry where any failure of the system can lead to shocking tragedies and healthcare providers are now taught as much about consumer-focused care, quality care, safety and risk management as any airline pilot responsible for a plane load of passengers.
There is still some way to go but safety and quality, as well as the identification of systems’ failure in causing the majority of trauma experienced by people, now have a firm foothold in the healthcare industry and provide the framework from which facilities are now managed.
Extensive, some of the most extensive in healthcare, research has shown that there are very, very few practitioners who could be described as “essentially evil”. It is human nature to alot blame and responsibility to individuals. Healthcare practitioners are some of the most (wrongly) guilt-ridden and conscientious people I know and they have themselves had to overcome the human tendency of blaming themselves and others when things go wrong.
It’s true that everyone will strike a practitioner who just isn’t going to “get” them – their manner is all wrong, they’re tired, they have the personality of a piece of chalk, etc. But, from a safety point of view, the healthcare industry is now the safest it has ever, ever been and it continues to monitor and self-correct in a way never before experienced by consumers.
In Australia and many other countries, consumers have a health rights charter and independent statutory bodies they can take complaints to. Consumers need to use them as this is what makes healthcare safer too. Consumers of healthcare also shoulder the responsibility to ensuring a safe healthcare system for all.
We don’t yet have the cure for most cancers but we are moving closer.
We don’t yet have the ideal birthing system but we are moving closer.
I wouldn’t be throwing the baby out with the bathwater just yet
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I really like what you’ve written, Susan.
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When I went to my first appointment with my wonderful obstetrician, he asked if I had any wishes regarding my pregnancy/birth, and I said ‘I’ve never done this before, so whatever you tell me to do, I’ll do it!’ I trusted my doctor and midwives because they’re experts…. I could read all the books available and I still wouldn’t have what they have- experience and knowledge in all aspects of pregnancy and birth.
There’s enough to think about when having a baby…. Leave the medical side of things to the professionals!
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I’m sorry, but seriously? Having a baby is a medical procedure best left to the professionals? Women have been giving birth forever..it’s nature, not medicine! This mindset is such a worrying trend..women just don’t trust their bodies enough these days. And I don’t mean all crunchy granola homebirth but, you know, just having an opinion about how you choose to birth your own child rather than handing it all over to ‘the professionals’. Sheesh!
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Obviously I didn’t hand it all over…. I was the one who pushed and squeezed my gorgeous son out! My opinion on how I birthed my baby was- I wanted my baby to be born healthy and the way I wanted to go about I was to follow the advice of my doctor! SHEESH!!
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Modern women tend not go know just how dangerous childbearing used to be. In 14th century Europe for example, life expectancy for men was 50, for women just 30. Due almost entirely to the deadly dangers of childbirth. There is a reason there are so many stepmothers in fairy tales.
Women have only had longer life expectancies than men for about 100 years or so as maternal mortality rates have plummeted – thanks, pretty much entirely, to increasing maternal care, pre and post natal certainly but also birth itself. Hygiene has played a huge part, but so has pain relief and management.
Fistulas, such a common horror for women in 3rd world countries ( you know, the ones who supposedly squat by the side of the field, give birth and then get back to farming) are virtually unknown for western women because doctors know how to avoid them and/or fix them.
Sure there are crap doctors and lousy – even terrifying and agonizing – birth experiences, but at least most of us come out of it alive and with a live baby too.
100 years ago, if labour failed to proceed fathers could be asked who to save, mother or child?
Things are so much better now.
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Thank you. I would have dearly loved an opportunity to give birth naturally, but was medically required to experience two c-sections. My mother successfully gave birth naturally to five children. As a result of the medical intervention, I suffered PND and had troubles with breastfeeding. I truly felt like a failure. But, the mantra that has sustained me is the knowledge that 100 years ago, without medical intervention, my first child and I would both be dead, and I would never have had my second beautiful child. For centuries, childbirth has truly been the most risky phase of life for mother and baby. Women were terrified of it – and still are, in the third world.
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Good for you. I did this too. My ob/gyns (all 3 of them) were just fantastic. Trusted them completely but they too accepted my feisty demands, within reason.
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Jennywren,
Yes, women have been giving birth forever and it’s nature. Women have also been dying and their babies have died during birth. In huge numbers. That’s nature too.
Until very recently when modern medicine and ‘intervention’ lowered the maternal death and injury rate monumentally, many women could expect their birth to end in death – their own or their baby’s.
This still happens to so many women and babies in 3rd world countries.
All thanks to ‘nature’.
I find the idea of ‘trusting your body’ to be so condescending and disengenuous. Trust all you like. Things go wrong.
And trust isn’t going to help you when your baby’s – or your – life depends on an emergency c-section.
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What on earth is wrong with trusting your body? You can still do that and take advice from medical professionals at the same time, can’t you? Why does it have to be so black & white?
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Precisely, thank you
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‘Women have been giving birth forever’… and losing children and dying in childbirth at very high rates. Forever.
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“I said ‘I’ve never done this before, so whatever you tell me to do, I’ll do it!’ I trusted my doctor and midwives because they’re experts”
Very well said, I couldn’t agree more. I haven’t had a baby yet but if/when the time comes, this is exactly how I plant to do it. If only more women had your common sense.
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Perhaps part of the problem is that so many women go into the birthing experience with an unrealistic expectation of what is going to happen. Birth is (just a few adjectives but by no means a total list) messy, painful, normal, sometimes dangerous, joyous, bewildering, frightening, animalistic.
Perhaps we need to be realistic about what birth is going to entail and get real. Birth plans, music play lists and candles go straight out the window when everything goes pear-shaped. As for me, I worship the Doctors and Nurses who saved my life and that of my baby – I couldn’t care less how they did it! I’m alive to tell the tale, and so is my gorgeous daughter!
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I totally agree with you. I too believe that a lot of women go into birth with unrealistic expectations. Yes, some women have wonderful experiences, but some (like me) do not. I went in with the thought that my body was made to do this, so why on earth wouldn’t I be able to do it? My body disagreed and that is why I am beyond grateful for my doctor. Like I said below, I don’t care what my doc did to make sure my son and I were OK. As long as we were OK.
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Great point Anonymous.
I see so many women try to control their birth and these are the ones who seem to focus more on a birth experience than the baby.
It’s not about oil burners and playlists, it’s about the physical wellbeing of mother and baby. In my opinion.
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What about the mental well being? I find it quite upsetting to hear it suggested my tramatic birth experience was as a result of unrealistic expectations. Yes it may have contributed as no new mother to be is going to really be prepared for birth. Mostly I had a horrific physical experience (no ones fault – I was unlucky) but made much much worse by the way this was handled by the public hospital system. I am not upset because they didn’t burn my candle…I am upset because I was treated like a body on a conveyor belt. I was upset because no one would talk to me and tell me what was happening. I honestly thought that I (and my baby) was going to die at one point. They mostly did ok tending my body but my vet treats my cat with more respect then I got. Post traumatic stress disorder is not disappointment that things don’t go to plan. Please do not belittle the birth trauma of other women.
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It’s not unrealistic to go into the birth experience expecting that a doctor asks before conducting an internal exam. Or that a midwife respects your request to wait until you are not mid-contraction before inserting a cannula in your hand ‘just in case’.
it is, on the other hand, pretty insulting to assume that women who seek a degree of autonomy in childbirth are prioritising candles and whalesong over their own life and the health of their child. Just because you couldn’t care less how your baby was born doesn’t mean it’s true for everyone…
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