by AVI VINCE
I have been vegan for just over one year. Prior to that, I was a chicken and fish eater for 14 years. Prior to that, my diet consisted of red meat and potatoes.
When my husband tells people that his wife is vegan they immediately get an image in their head. Long dreadlocks. Tattoo sleeves on both arms. Piercings everywhere. They are utterly shocked to find that I am so straighty-one-eighty that it is bordering on nerdy. Okay, not bordering, I am an actual nerd. Apparently, I am the first nerd they have met who leads an alternative lifestyle without the stereotypical alternative look.
In addition to my stereotypes, I always get two questions about my veganism. Often with an expression of utter bewilderment that I voluntarily chose to go down this path.
First question, why did I choose to be vegan?
I have never liked eating meat of any kind. The only reason I was eating chicken and fish was because research and people (family) told me I would be sickly if I didn’t. I often only ate it when it was covered in sauces or deep fried that it didn’t taste like what it original was.
I also found out that all my efforts at trying to be animal friendly through free range and organic weren’t a guarantee to the animal living happily ever after. I can’t stand animal cruelty and it was an easy switch. Yes, I still get cravings for chocolate (diary) and yes, I still cave and eat chocolate. But other than that, I am vegan and love it. I have never been healthier.
Second question, would I force my children to eat vegan?
This question is usually said with so much horror spread over their face that I often want to say that I will feed my children raw red meat to prevent them from calling Child Protection Services. Point to note here, I have no children, I am not pregnant and I am not trying to get pregnant.
My real answer to the second question is “I’m not sure, probably” while wondering why everyone uses the word force in this question like I am going to lead my family as the head dictator.
Realistically speaking, my children are most likely going to eat whatever I cook them. And I cook what I eat. So they will probably eat far more vegies, fruit and grains than any other kids. And I wouldn’t do this simply for my beliefs in being a vegan. My mum loves meat and potatoes. It isn’t classified a meal without meat in it. And so when I was younger, I ate what I was given. Did I mention my mum hated vegies? So as a result, I wasn’t given a huge amount of vegies, except potatoes.
Even with all the meat eating, I was still the strange child who asked for “more rice, no just rice, not meat thanks”. Or pile on all the salads at the buffet, wasting space for my main meal as it was referred to. I did this as far back as I can remember. I only ate meat when it was given to me and when I was instructed to finish everything on my plate.
Did thousands of meals of meat and dairy make me a meat lover? No.
If people think I would be forcing my eating habits on my children, then my mum is guilty of forcing her eating habits on me. (It didn’t work.)
If people think that I would be deliberately starving my children of essential nutrients, then my mum is guilty of not providing a variety of vitamins found in vegies on my plate.
If my child screamed from the back seat that they wanted McDonalds burgers, I would probably say no. Not because McDonalds burgers have red meat in it, but because it is high in fat and incredibly unhealthy.
If my child asked for meat, I would give it to them. Let them try it out. I probably wouldn’t cook it, again not because I am against meat, but because I would probably cook it so badly they wouldn’t want it ever again (hey, there’s an idea). Their dad, my husband, would probably cook them up a steak (did I mention he is a meat and potato eater?).
If my child asked me why I didn’t eat meat, I would tell them the truth. Regardless of whether my child eats meat, I am going to teach them to respect animals like my dad taught me through countless Sunday afternoon hours watching National Geographic documentaries. (My dad eats meat.)
I was and am the only person in my family and circle of friends who is vegan. I don’t even have a fellow vegetarian buddy to back me up.
It was entirely my choice, and I would support my child to be a meat and potato eater, or a stricter vegan than I am or whatever diet comes up in the future.
I have decided that as a good future mother my only concern would be the health and nutrition of my child which I would monitor regardless of what they ate (meat eaters suffer nutrition deficiencies too).
One final note, my eldest niece (4 years old) gets fed meat and potatoes (and loves it) and when I have taken her out to lunch and asked her what she would like, giving her full range of the food court, she simply replies “Just some carrots and broccoli please.”
So the real question is not how mothers force feed their children certain diets, but rather what would you do if your child chose to eat differently to you?
Monday to Friday, nice to five, Avi Vince works as a manager in a non-profit organisation. At all other times (and sometimes sneakily during nine to five) she thinks of writing. Avi Vince is starting her freelance writing career and you can follow her blog here or at twitter here.







Comments
389 Comments so far
I think it’s wonderful that you are making this decision. I grew up in a family that rarely ate junk food – and was for the most part vegetarian with out being ‘officially’ so. I think it’s just the word ‘vegan’ that people must be reacting too, ae a largely vegetable diet is sooo healthy. I love that you care so much about animal cruelty. It’s inspiring.
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Hi really agree with you. The V word eg vegan is such a heavy word laden with all sorts of stereotypes that the author mentioned and distracts from what has been proven as the healthiest diet we are designed to eat. That’s why I use Plant Based so it focuses just on the food eg the multitude of plants, nuts and seeds in the world and the health aspect. Usually people hear this and are interested, ask questions and not turned off immediately by the political connotations. And start defending their choice of diet or wearing leather (I really don’t care! ) Meat eaters can be the most defensive ready for an argument people especially online.
I remember working with 2 teachers when doing my prac who were in Animal Liberation and I felt them judging me re leather shoes bag etc. Same thing with a local vege/vegan group recently with my faux fur! It may be fake but… I really prefer to focus on the food but have gradually bought leather free by choice over the years. I had to rent a car recently and the smell of new car leather was head spinning ( chemicals?) so had to take back for an older car…
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Hey everyone, it’s time for that reminder of our dinner party rules. Please try and avoid any comments that are nasty towards the writer and/or other commenters.
Also, there’s a lot of people called ‘anonymous’ and it’s getting mighty confusing. Would be helpful for all if you could pick a name (it doesn’t have to be the same one that’s on your birth certificate) and stick with it. Gracias.
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It gets a little crazy in here! Maybe it’s time to disable the anonymous function?
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Usually people respond to this suggestion acting like asking for a name is asking them to publish their full details with bank PINs.
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I’d be quite happy to use my real name, but when I do, my posts are deleted. They are even deleted when I use the wrong computer and the ISP address is rejected. All because some feminazi doesn’t like men who don’t agree with her.
It’s ok though, one day I was told twice that the only reason I held a particular view was because I have a little dick. I love discrimination like that.
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Good call.
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It just seems like a no brainer to me that your kids eat similar sorts of foods to you as a parent. Vegan diets are generally really healthy and the vegans I know take their nutrition and that of their kids really seriously. In one family I know if the child wanted to try non vegan food that was ok so long as the food was ethically sourced.
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Forgive me if I seem to be nitpicking here – but I always thought veganism embraced the whole concept of no animal products at all.
No leather shoes, bags, furniture, etc.
No feather doonas or pillows.
No woollen rugs, jumpers, coats.
No fish-oil supplements.
NO part of any animal, whether it flies, swims or walks. (In the case of seagulls, all three.)
Am I wrong? Is veganism limited only to diet?
And … if you have a pet, surely you don’t feed it vegan food, do you? It would become very sick.
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It’s supposed to, yes. I’m vegan and I follow all of those.
The variation lies in why a person is vegan. If a person is vegan for ethical reasons, then they will most likely follow those rules. I sometimes almost get teary when I find a pair of beautiful shoes that are leather… but I remind myself, will I even remember them in a week? Or that ice cream? The answer is always ‘no’
If a person is vegan for health reasons ie high cholesterol (the body makes all the cholesterol it needs, all the additional cholesterol is only found in animal products) then they would probably still go for all the stuff you mentioned.
Hope that clears it up!
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“The body makes all the cholesterol it needs, all the additional cholesterol is only found in animal products” – I never knew that! V. interesting. What if you cook with a lot of vegetable or peanut oil? Not trying to contest you, I’m genuinely interested.
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You are right. Veganism should be the full manifestation of not exploing nonhuman animals – for food, clothes, entertainment, the lot. It is an ethical position and should be consistent.
Veganism as a diet is only a subset of veganism and should me more accurately called a plant based diet. This can be done for health or aesthetic or religious reasons alone and need not involve any ethics.In my experience most “vegans” are simply plant based eaters.
Vegans do not have pets. Vegans confer personhood and moral relevance to all sentient beings. Therefore if they adopt an abandoned nonhuman (never buy a good-for-sale version!) they will regard it a companion rather than a pet. If that companion can eat vegan (like many dogs) then that is the best way. But obligate carnivores such as cats have little option. That is a real enigma – saving a carnivore – and one that bothers many vegans including myself.
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Just out of interest. Why does it bother you to save a carnivore? SUrely they have their place in the world. Think crocodiles, killer whales, lions etc. they kinda fit into a niche in the natural world after all. I know our world isn’t terribly natural, but I’m not sure that carnivores shouldn’t exist for that reason.
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To hazard a guess, I assumed the poster meant that they would want to save the carnivore animal, but in doing so they would be necessitating the deaths of the other animals that would be fed to it. So it’s like ‘save this animal or save the animals it will end up eating’. Just my interpretation!
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Well that was my guess too, but I’d really want to see the answer from a vegan. I’ve got a lot of soapboxes, but veganism is one I can’t/won’t come at.
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I’m a vegetarian who has considered veganism, that’s part way there!
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Good for you. I’m an omnivore, who occasionally eats vegetarian/vegan meals. I like both too much to give one up.
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Saving a carnivore per se is not bothersome for me. But continuing to feed that carnivore is bothersome because it involves my complicity in the death of others. Hence the enigma.
I think that *domesticated* carnivores have no real place in the world, just like any other domesticated species has no real place in the natural scheme of things. All domesticated creatures are here due to human selfishness and mismanagement. They are the only creatures that are always vulnerable and at the mercy of their “owners” and can never be self reliant – in stark contrast to the natural order of things where every creature at some point becomes self reliant and self deterministic. In my perfect world they would not exist at all. But those that are already extant deserve moral consideration extended to them, particularly since we put them there in the first place and they had no choice in the matter.
The romantic notion of wild dogs visiting the cavemen in a synergistic relationship as being the start of domestication is so stretched that it is perverse. There is no similarity at all between that situation and the domestication of farm animals and pets today.
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Thanks for explaining. I get your point. I also think its not a perfect world. We have 2 cats and 2 dogs living with us. Neither animal is native to Australia, so we try to keep them the least destructive way we can.
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I understand disagreeing with the buying and selling of animals marketed as pets but treated like a commodity.
However, I cannot reconcile that my dog has no place in the world. And yes I bought him, on instinct without much forethought in a dodgy backyard where he was obviously being mistreated – it took three days for him to go to the toilet and continues to have issues to this day.
Many considered how my partner and I treat him as spoiled – as a puppy he slept on the bed, I rarely buy manufactured dog food and we upset people when we insist our house is his house, and he wont be kicked out the back because you don’t want hair on your slacks.
I don’t take holidays unless I can take him with us, or someone can stay with him.
I don’t doubt his love for me – this dog that eats anything he can see including non food items like cans and socks did not eat for three days while I was in hospital giving birth.
Unfortunately that there is that romantic notion you speak of, it has made people complacent with animals such as dingoes.
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As long as the kids are healthy, what’s the problem? I’m a vegan and I have no idea what I’ll do when I have kids. I guess if my partner eats meat then he can feed them meat, but me? Meat repulses me. I can’t touch it or handle it, let alone cook it.
If you look at it the other way… anyone who isn’t raising their kids vegan is forcing them to eat meat.
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I really like and appreciate this article. I’ve been vegetarian for 2 years now. It has taught me a lot about nutrition and learning to cook new things. I just wanted to say that i too get asked what if my children will be vegetarian. It’s a hard question I think and agree that you just want to bring them up healthily. If they chose to eat meat so be it- each to their own– but i aint cooking it!
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I am vegan Monday to Friday and vegetarian on weekends. I find I bother less and less with dairy on weekends as time goes on, though a good boiled egg with buttered toast is hard to pass up. I feel great. I have lost weight and have much more stable energy levels than when I used to eat an omnivorous diet.
I thought it would be so hard being vegan when in fact there are so many delicious foods and recipes to cook and eat.
Just for the record I do not have dreadlocks or the alternative wardrobe either.
In our house with two adults and two teenagers we have two omnivores, one vegetarian Mon-Fri Vegan,and one Mon-Fri Vegan weekend omnivore. And no it isn’t hard to cater to everyone at meal times even with the two adults working full time. Some vegan meals have become top requested dinners, mushroom ragout with polenta and spinach being a favourite in this cold weather.
As for what Vegans feed their kids, why don’t we all spend a little more time encouraging people not to feed their kids fast food rather than criticise parents who choose a healthy diet?
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You’re not vegan… you eat a vegan diet five days a week, but if you give it up on weekends then you aren’t vegan.
Vegans pass up boiled eggs on toast, full time.
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You do realise that orangewendy pretty much agrees with your point, don’t you?
I don’t understand why veganism has to be a club that we deliberately exclude people from when they aren’t ‘good’ or ‘vegan’ enough, nor do I understand why her definition of herself warrants enough attention to write a snarky sounding comment.
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Yes, for some it’s a dietary choice rather than a religion.
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Sorry can’t edit so I’ll add to clarify, that I’m not trying to be nasty, just find the word choice interesting, “I am vegan” vs “I eat a vegan diet”.
Personally I try and eat less red meat than I used to for environmental reasons, more fish for health reasons, and I will often choose a vegetarian meal when I’m out.
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A person who eats vegan but does not following the vegan ideals of no leather, fur, feathers, wool, silk etc. is called a vegitan. Just throwing that in there for folk who don’t know the word.
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Just to clarify, I don’t “give up” on weekends. I choose to eat differently on those two days. I am comfortable with that choice. I am finding it quite overwhelming the intolerance and prejudice some commentators are having from both sides throughout this thread. Apologies for not being grammatically clear, I eat a vegan diet Monday to Friday and I choose to eat a vegetarian diet Saturday and Sunday. Thank you Loop, I’m glad you are a dinner guest with manners.
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Hi Loop,
Hope this answers your point. Yes it can be annoying that the ‘club rules’ can be so important as against someone’s self-identification, but when people loosely use a label for themselves, it means that the rest of us are constantly battling to explain what we do and don’t eat/wear/use and to clarify to people what the proper definition of something is. It’s not so much about being ‘not vegan enough’ but about actually being vegan at all. “Yes I know your friend says she is vegan but will eat a bit of cheese. Yes I know your aunty’s friend’s cousin eats fish on Fridays. Yes I know someone you met on the train will eat meat if it’s a gift. But I won’t”.
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i adore thick greek yogurt…. its so hard to find a good soy variety but! any suggestions. Im vego (have been all my life, now 22) and have wanted to go vegan for a long time, the main thing id miss however is greek yogurt and the occasional egg since i feel this is where my protein comes from. any suggestions?
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Coyo yoghurt. You have to try it. It’s made from coconuts and it’s the closest thing I’ve found to Greek yoghurt. That was also my favourite dairy food and I’m very excited to have a vegan version after 2+ years of no yoghurt.
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thanks for the recommendation, where do you buy it? Also honest question, but if eggs come from free-range chickens, why do vegans still not eat eggs?
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1. Every hen has a brother. But he does not lay eggs and as a different type from his broiler cousins he is also uneconomical for meat. Did you know he was killed as a child just because he was male and useless to the industry?
2. Free range can mean whatever the owners want it to mean. I suggest you visit a free range establishment to see “how much better” it is.
3. Modern hens are the product of selective breeding and produce an egg every 30 hours – they are basically egg making machines. This is fully Frankensteinish and not at all natural and comes at great expense to the hen who is plagued with discomfort, calcium leeching, etc.
4. When the hen’s egg production wanes beyound a certain economic return she is declared “spent” and sent to the same abattoir as her broiler cousins – but she’ll be used for stock and cheap grade mince.
5. Hens are fed with enriched diets to make eggs which meet minimum standards. All those people who harp on about vegans consuming supplements – well guess what – *you* are the ones actually doing that, except yours get cycled through hens (and cows).
6. This is simply the exploitation of a female’s reproductive system and so fully anti-feminist. Anyone who eats eggs is by their action anti-feminist regardless of their rhetoric.
7. It also perpetuates the paradigm that nonhumans are simply here for exploitation by humans, rather than being here for their own ends.
8. The idea of eating the waste product of a menstrual cycle, delivered through the vent (combined anus and vagina) of a bird should be enough! Put simply: eggs are vagina fruit.
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Coyo yoghurt – I buy it from Thomas dux or from my local organic shop. I’m in Sydney so not sure if Thomas dux in other parts of Sydney. If you have a local health food shop or an organic groccer they might be happy to stock it for you if you ask. I think it only came out this year so independent grocers might not be aware if it yet. Go to their website, it might also be helpful with stockists. Good luck with finding it, it’s worth the trouble.
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I have absolutely no issues with vegetarianism/veganism or raising your kids as such, but I do get a chuckle from “when I am a parent I will do this and that and never feed them maccas” aspirational posts. Avi, I think you should definitely save this post and compare with what your actual practices are when you have, say 3 kids 5 and under.
I remember when my first was a baby and wolfed down every bit of pureed broccoli I could shove down her throat, didn’t know what easter eggs were when she was 18 months. I was so proud/smug of my superior parenting via nutritional choices for her!
And then we moved somewhere which is at least a half hour’s drive from anywhere and I discovered the glory that is McDonald’s for a child on a long drive. You get carbs and protein and a drink! And it comes in a box! And they get a toy! You wouldn’t believe how much pleasure and distraction a child gets from lots of different little bits of food in a box, add a toy in to the mix and you have whinge-quelling genius all for $4.20.
I regularly cook a dinner for the kids that I know they will actually eat, and then something appetising for me and my husband. I remember when I was pregnant one of my friends who already had kids saying something about how you end up cooking 2 or 3 dinners a night anyway and I thought she was mad. Now I walk in her shoes.
I have some kids who love salads. Some who hate fried rice (how is that possible!). Some who love broccoli. Some who won’t even have broccoli on the plate without retching. I think the only things they all love – other than Maccas happy meals – are chicken, steak, chips, raw capsicum, ham & pineapple pizza, plain pasta and chocolate. Anything other than one of the above elements will draw a grumble from one or more of them.
About half the time I serve up whatever and tough bikkies if they don’t like it they can starve, the other half I take the path of least resistance and give them something they will eat.
Anyway, best of luck!
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I always said I would never feed my kid Maccas or any other crap junk food, and I haven’t. She’s nearly 13. She doesn’t want to eat it either, as I have educated her about making healthy, ethical choices. You don’t have to throw your ideals out hte window just because of what “all the other kids do”.
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Nope neither have mine and they are 9,7 and 2. I choose not to support McDonalds as I do not agree with them as a company and I do not like the taste of their food. When my children have their own money and if they choose to go buy a “happy” meal then they can but I will not spend any of mine in that place.
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sorry you two are missing my point – which was to warn to be careful about saying definitively what you will and won’t do with your kids before you have them. because circumstance or exhaustion may cause you to contradict yourself.
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I was raised ovo-lacto vegetarian and my husband and children eat meat. It wasn’t my own choice to be vegetarian and I always wanted my children to be able to make the choice for themselves, when they are older. For me, even trying fish/chicken/meat is more of a mental hurdle than a moral one – and IMHO it definitely takes more effort to have a healthy balanced diet as a vegetarian.
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In answer to your question Avi if my children choose to eat a different diet to me I would encourage them as long as they research their choices and make sure its a balanced diet getting all the vitamins etc they need, ie chocolate and two minute noodles for teenagers I would assume be insufficient. I hope in response to your question people dont judge your choices and your choices you may or may not make for your children. I’ve grown very tired lately of people judging other peoples decisions and choices in life. I believe people in general, especially on the internet, are so quick to judge and should maybe concern themselves more with their own lives and not worry so much about what others are doing.
Personally I eat meat and potatoes as you refer to it, I guess I just grew up with it and acquired the taste for it. However I am an animal lover, call me a hypocrite but there you go. I also grew up on a dairy farm so know exactly what happens in order for meat and milk to get to the nicely labelled packages in the supermarket and yes when I think the reality of what goes on makes my stomach churn, so I try not to think about it and make sure I don’t visit my family during calving season.
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Can’t understand vegetarianism/veganism. Animals eat animals. Humans eat animals. It just seems so natural to me.
I’ve never been one to shy away from meat, even as a kid I knew exactly where it came from and it didn’t turn me off.
The thing that phases me about modern farming is pumping animals full of hormones and steroids. But eating an animal is just fine.
I pity veggies – never being able to enjoy a delicious piece of bacon!
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Animals eat animals and humans eat animals. Not quite – only some animals eat other animals.
But lets see where that induction takes you…
Some animals shht in the woods and don’t wipe their back sides.
Some male animals fight to the death to get the female.
Some female animals consume their male partner after sex.
Some animals fly!
Ok – where did that fail??
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What exactly is your point? What you’ve said happens, so I don’t get it.
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The point is that if “some” animals do it… that doesn’t automatically extend to “all” animals.
I’m a guilty meat-eater, but i get the point.
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I still thought it was pointless.
Vegetarian/herbivores usually have more than one stomach with some sort of caecum. We don’t anymore. We probably did once, the Appendix is thought to be the remnants of a caecum, but over time, we’ve evolved to have the digestive system of an omnivore. As a rule, humans are one of the species that eats meat.
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A “rule” obviously disproved by hundreds of millions of lifelong vegetarians in Asia over the last couple thousand years.
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Wrong Anonymous – you don’t have to eat meat to have a balanced diet and vegans and vegetarians are consistently the most healthy amongst us with lowest rates of body fat, diabetes, heat disease, cholesterol, high blood pressure etc etc etc. Vegatarians generally don’t force their opinions on meat eaters so I don’t know why some people get so obviously defensive when this topic arises.
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I think kids have different dietary needs but don’t they.
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Yes – but they can thrive on a vegan diet easily.
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As long as they have B12 supplements.
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Which come from meat-based bacterial cultures.
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Yes – among other things they need cholesterol for brain development, which is one of the reasons they don’t advise feeding kids low-fat dairy when they’re small.
And kids have actually died and been brain damaged from being breast-fed by B12-deficient vegan mothers – http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15738604
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I’m sorry, but I am vegetarian and the other people I have met who are vegetarian shove their opinions about meat etc down others throats- especially at the dinner table!
My husband is a big meat eater, I cook it for him, prepare it, even buy it!- I am vegetarian mostly as I hate the taste of meat, and for a little bit of ethical reasons, but I would NEVER deprive my husband of it, never get on my soapbox about it to others and it’s “benefits”, just let people be who they are and eat what they eat… I hate meat, but my husband lOves steak and I love the way his face lights up when I cool him a big juicy porterhouse … It’s about what each person chooses- so who is anyone to get on their high-horse and preach about who eats what and the nutritional or moral aspects.
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… Yet I have had meat-eaters literally wave bacon in front of my face, rub their bellies and say how much they love eating all animals, begin aggressive interrogations over the table, publicly make fun of me, and tell me that I’m stupid and my children will be malnourished. I’ve said nothing except order my dinner, or accept the meal given to me. In my experience, for every pushy vegan or vegetarian, there are many many more meat-eaters prepared to view my choice as a reason to spray spittle and venom at me.
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“Vegatarians generally don’t force their opinions on meat eaters so I don’t know why some people get so obviously defensive when this topic arises.”
Have a read through this post!
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What? people commenting here are responding to an article about the topic, I was talking in life, generally. At least, that’s my experience.
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And I’m commenting on this post. Pointing out that there are some pretty hardcore people around who don’t mind calling people abusive murderers for eating meat. Have a read!
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It’s not about whether eating meat is ‘natural’. I think you’ll find most vegetarians are vegetarians because they deplore the conditions forced upon livestock and choose to protest with their dollar and their lifestyle.
Just because you have canine teeth doesn’t mean you have license to torture a pig.
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Pandas have canine teeth yet eat only bamboo.
Hippos have…
Do your research people. Pretty much all mammals except ruminants have canine teeth. Apart from in obligate carnivores they are most generally used for locating palates rather than ripping meat.
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There really is no comparison between non-human animals eating meat and humans doing so, in terms of it being ‘natural’- there isn’t a valid argument here. Mass farming is not the same as catching one animal and eating it.
Further, humans have a concept of morality and a greater awareness of the others’ pain than most non-human animals do, which I see as the fundamental difference.
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Exactly.
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Humans have been farming animals for millennia. Now we have new technologies, but it’s not all that different.
I know that some people think farming is immoral etc, but I just don’t see it. To me, domestic farm animals, are there to be eaten by humans, they always have been and always will be. Our methods may change, but the food does not. It’s just part of our cultural evolution. We have 7 billion people to feed, so letting cows run free is just impractical. Farming methods need to be practical, and yes economical (and there’s nothing wrong with that.)
Humans have a concept of morality, but to me this extends to other humans and not really to animals. Maybe you think I’m a cold, heartless bitch for thinking that. But I do. And I’m allowed my opinion, just as you are.
It may seem cruel to have cows stuffed in tiny spaces all day, but it’s just as cruel watching a lion rip out the jugular of a gazelle.
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When the aliens come and chose not to extend their morality to humans you will see how discriminatory that opinion is.
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“lol what ?
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Hi Anon1, thanks for your reply,
I wasn’t making a moral judgement about mass farming, I was pointing it out as a difference between humans and non-humans eating meat. Even though you agree with mass farming, I’m sure you can agree that it can’t be considered ‘natural’, that it is in fact a human-made environment?
Regarding morality, I would argue that almost all humans’ morality extends to non-human animals. Removing ourselves from the meat-eating conversation, I think most humans would say animal-abuse/torture is morally wrong (by this I mean the awful news stories regarding pointless torture of animals)?
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Hmm… yes mass farming is man-made, but it’s just the way farming as changed over the years. Would you say there’s anything wrong with old-style cows on a paddock? It just happens to be that old-style is no longer practical for our booming population, so we’ve resorted to other methods… that’s kinda how I see it.
You’re completely right in regards to morality. We can never justify torturing an animal for no reason. But to me, I see farming differently. That might make me a hypocrite, but it’s how I see it. I can justify farming in order to produce food, but I can’t justify torturing a animal for nothing.
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I’m not making a comment on farming being good or bad. My main point is that I don’t consider “meat eating is natural” as a valid argument for doing so. In this, I’m not inheritantly saying it is bad, I’m saying that that reasoning for doing so is bad.
Yes, I would consider you a hypocrite for doing so, BUT, please don’t take offence, I think we’re all hypocrites! It’s not always a bad thing. Vegan-vegetarian-omnivore: they aren’t discrete categories, it’s a continuum. The omnivore’s a hypocrite for loving animals and not wanting them hurt, yet still eating meat which causes the pain of animals. The vegetarian (me!) is a hypocrite for not wanting the death/pain of animals yet still eating eggs and drinking milk, with the knowledge that animals are killed and hurt for this. The vegan is a hypocrite for using medication that was trialed on animals. I think in a lot of these occasions the ‘hypocrisy!’ cry is meaningless. Most of the time, it needs to be about harm minimisation.
(p.s. I don’t mean to say my descriptions categorise all omnivores, vegetarians or vegans, they were just examples)
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If you do some research you’ll find that ‘old fashioned cows in paddocks’ still works and works very well…try Bio-dynamics. Our family purchases all meat this way… at about $15-$16 per kilo across the board
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Guys -the rules at a vegan dinner party are the same as a regular one. Keep it nice. Thanks.
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Slightly off topic, but do you and your husband cook separate meals at dinner time?
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I can’t speak for the OP, but I’m veggie and my partner isn’t. We often have the same meal and she’ll cook meat on the side to add later, particularly if it’s stir fries, burritos etc etc. Or if it’s something like a roast dinner, we’ll have separate ‘meats’ (quorn sausages all the way, yum!) cooked separately again. Or, if she’s feeling lazy, she eats veggie as well.
But we don’t live together, so that might change it
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I was listening to ABC regional radio the other day, and on talk back there was a bloke who was calling for meat eating to be banned because it is cruel to animals. He also wanted to encourage foxes and dingoes into suburban areas.
I have two questions,
If god wanted us to be vegans, why are animals made out of meat?
If we can’t kill animals, can we eat the vegans?
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By that logic (eating animals because they are made out of meat) why can’t I eat my neighbour? He too is made out of meat…
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Dearie me.
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I hope you’re joking Anon…
I’m an atheist, am I allowed to be vegan? Do I have your permission?
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Of course I was joking.
To me it’s quite a ridiculous argument. I’m pretty sick of one group portraying themselves as morally superior over another group simply because of their beliefs. If you want to be a vegan, or a born again christian, or a member of the communist party, then good on you, fill your boots, but it doesn’t make you a better person.
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Stop feeding the troll, everyone!
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It’s a bit early to decide what your children will eat, particularly if they haven’t even been conceived yet.
The answer is that you don’t know your children until they start to show their own personality traits. These traits come out quite early, and I remember my wife not wanting my daughter eating meat that wasn’t cooked to within an inch of its life. The reality is that my little girl is a carnovore of the 1st kind. Without any prompting she decided she like rare meat. I can’t stop that, and as much as I’d like her to eat fish (I’m a seafood freak), she will always be a meat lover.
So Avi, don’t preempt anything regarding what your kids will or won’t be like, you don’t know. Dream all you like though, and enjoy the dream because I can guarantee that reality will be quite different.
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Avi may not be able to influence her children’s sense of taste but will surely be able to influence their morality and influence on the world around them.
In bringing them up vegan (and not just in diet but in universally choosing not to exploit others – human or nonhuman) her children will, when they grow up, be guided by sensible instruction and introspection rather than simple palate pleasure.
Go for it Avi.
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And will be better than the rest of us.
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Hmm. I think it’s a parents responsibility to feed their children a healthy diet which I think must include dairy, if not meat as well. The author’s argument justifying feeding her (future) kids vegan seems to be ‘well, my Mum only fed me meat and potatoes, so she forced her food preferences onto me’. I don’t see how that makes it okay. You weren’t fed a balanced diet growing up, so it’s okay for you not to feed your kids a balanced diet too?
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Dairy is not essential in our diets. It causes inflamation and allergies in 85% of the population. I don’t think you should be giving kids dairy at all.
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Huh? Where did you pull that statistic from?
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You don’t have to eat meat and diary to eat a balanced diet.
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Zabie, we do not need dairy. Do some research. Also, name ONE other animal that consumes the breast milk of another species – ready, set, go!…..
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Ha ha I don’t think you can force your children to eat anything, you can put it in front of them but they’ll develop their own tastes. I have one who loves meat and tomato sauce and not much else, and another who loves veggies, salad and cheese.
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I have 2 sisters that are both vegan & have been for over 15 years. They are total foodies & I always get food envy when I see what they are eating. Both have partnered up with foodies as well (a chef & a wanna be chef).
They get asked the kid question all the time & while they are happy for their partners to cook the (future) kids meat thy will cook vegan & the kids will have the most amazing food experiences.
I also have an older sister who lives on fast food & is never questioned on how many McD’s meals hers kids have!
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I raised my daughter vegetarian. She’s 13 now and is very committed to it. She could choose to eat meat (the whole family does at her dad’s, and she lives there 1/2 the time) but she doesn’t. She’s happy and healthy.
AND Would anyone care if it was “Forcing your kids to be Christian”. People are within their rights to raise their children within their own belief systems…
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I say feed your kids what you want! My parents have turned me into a food snob, and I thank them for it. Woe betide anyone who comes through my checkout with parmesan in a can!
I think everyone projects their values and beliefs onto their kids, as long as your kids have a healthy balanced diet who really cares?
As long as your kids are free to choose!
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But is the kid of the cow being killed so that you can take her mothers milk free to choose?
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tortures? really? have you killed an animal before? I have, and I assume you I do not ‘torture’ the animal! It is swift, quick and painless. I have raised chickens from babies to adults, and killed them for dinner. I know where my meat comes from, and I choose to eat it.
vegans like you that use ridiculously emotive language that is obviously not researched are the reason that many meat eaters hold the viewpoint that vegans are ‘alternative’. I don’t care what you eat, as long as you don’t force your viewpoints on me. Same as religion – have any view you want, don’t force it onto me!
really anon, get some guts, do some research and stop using ridiculous language
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anon stop changing your reply! that’s the third time! stick to your guns!
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and to reply to your THIRD comment change, my cousins owned a dairy farm and it is not what PETA loves to plaster all over it’s website. We treat the cows humanely, compassionately, and when the calves go off to be killed for veal, that is done quickly and painlessly as well. researching where your meat comes from goes a long way.
personally, I don’t eat red meat, as I could never bring myself to kill a sheep, pig or cow. I have killed chickens and fish before, so I don’t see the problem in eating those if I’m happy to know where my dinner came from.
again, free to choose. It’s not my fault that people are still eating foie gras, for example, but I can’t do anything to change their choice once they know how it is made. I’m not forcing my opinions on others, stop being sensationalist and forcing yours on me.
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Humanely?
What is humane about forcefully impregnating a cow, taking away her child (to be killed in short time for veal) and then pumping her for milk till she’s ready for it over again? And then sending her to the same slaughterhouse as her angus cousins when she becomes less economically advantageous after a few years?
When it’s humane to do that to dogs, cats or humans then it will be humane to do it to cattle. ie: not in your lifetime.
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This is not the issue of the article, the article is asking us whether you would force your children to be vegan.
can you please GO to a dairy farm and see the cows?! have a look for yourself! what do you think we are doing, ramming a metal rod up their behinds and forcing them to stand up on concrete for 18 hours a day. this may come as a shock to you anon, but just because we eat meat doesn’t mean we don’t have hearts.
you’ve completely skewed the point anon – hands up who would like to drink dog, cat or human milk? yeah didn’t think so. I’ve seen how milk is produced, I’m happy to drink it.
Now stick to the point of the article, and stop being such a keyboard warrior. Wonder if you’d have the guts to be this rude to my face? You’re the reason so many people are reluctant to give veganism a try – implying that we’re cruel and heartless bastards is not the way f ro your choices to gain popularity.
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Re. the issue of the article: You said the kids should be free to choose and who really cares. I said that others do care, in this case at least the cows and their own children, and that you deny these others the same “choice” you are trying to confer on the original subject.
You could just as easily teach kids to put the heater on whenever they feel cold. Or you could look at the sensibility of that and see that it might be better to get them to think about other options like putting on a jumper or going for a run rather than doing the easiest, most convenient and environmentally destructive option.
Sure, you have a legal right to eat animal products – but that does not mean it’s a good thing to do. Just like you have a legal right to wear no clothes in the house and run your heater 24/7 – but that’s just as absurd.
You would be happy to impregnate dogs/cats/humans if you liked the idea of their milk? My mind boggles.
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Don’t eat red meat because you don’ want to kill a cow?
Let’s be sure: veal and cheap beef mince are the byproducts of the dairy industry – not the meat industry.
Drink bovine milk and you necessarily are engaged in the death of bovines.
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So what?
Veal is quite tasty, and there’s no way I’m going to stop eating it because a bunch of people don’t like the thought of calves being killed.
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Im a vegeterian, my kids are not. Have lots of friends who are also non meat eaters so, no, others dont think I am weird (wow I thought that attitude died out in the 90`s) I cook my children healthy meals and if they eat a some meat in moderation I am fine by that. I would never say no Im not cooking meat just to enforce my own personal preferences on them. It`s not all about me!
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I’m not a dietician, but my understanding is that a vegan diet could be potentially very harmful to a small child, especially when they are under 2, and require full fat dairy products for brain development. If you were to do it, I think it would have to be with the help of a dietician to monitor nutrient intake. A vegetarian diet would be much more manageable, then at least they could get the fat they need from dairy instead of something like peanuts.
Iron must be an issue too. Even my son who eats lots of baked beans, spinach, eggs and lentils, but is not a lover of red meat had low ( not deficient) iron levels, when tested recently.
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Full fat dairy products are not necessary. HUMAN MILK, breastmilk is what a human baby needs. I studied nutrition at Uni, this is not just my opinion. There are plenty of non-animal ways to get good fats in the diet (nuts, avocado, coconut…to name a few).
Same with iron and you can always suppliment with Floradix, a herbal iron tonic, if you are worried.
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Yes I’m sure it can be done, but I stand by my point that you would need guidance of a qualified dietician to do it properly. Let’s not forget that many babies will stop breast feeding long before they turn 2 by their own accord, and it wouldn’t always be possible to express the required amounts of breastmilk, even if you wanted to. Added to that, there are many fussy kids out there who would simply refuse avacado, coconut etc. I’m not saying it can’t be done, just that it requires very responsible meal planning in order to give a child proper nutrition.
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Or you could just get a book or two about vegan nutrition written by someone qualified….and then read it and follow it’s recommendations.
Kids are not “fussy” until they are taught to be.
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If your kids are fussy it’s because you’ve never let them go hungry.
Kids, cats and dogs will never be fussy eaters if they are taught to eat what is put in front of them.
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Calling bullshit on the not ‘fussy’ comments.
Kids can be fussy or particular or independently able to make a decision on what they like or don’t like…from an early age. They are people not robots to be programmed.
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Rubbish for dogs as well – we have two dogs, who’ve always been fed the same diet. One of them will pick the bits she likes out of her food and leave the rest, the other scarfs down the lot and anything else they can get their paws on! Dogs aren’t robots either!
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And if I don’t know one kid who would knock back a coconut avocado raw chocolate brownie! All good stuff. Super high protein, good fats and looks and tastes just like a “real” brownie.
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Oh my God…recipe, please!
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I am a 30 year old female, and my brain is well developed – without full fat dairy products. I was given soy formula as cows milk has always made me sick. Cows milk is for baby cows – not humans!
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Think: Aboriginals did not drink cows milk till Europeans brought it over 200 years ago yet they survived here for at least 60K years.
Dairy necessary? I think not.
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Yes, that’s true, Aboriginals didn’t drink cows’ milk. But they weren’t vegans either.
Anyway, like i say I’m not a dietician. My comment was meant as a word of caution for feeding babies under age two, in response to some of the “go for it!” type comments here.. I don’t think it’s that easy to get it right, and I think you have to be very careful.
For the record, as I get the feeling that some people are feeling quite adversarial towards my comments, I fully support veganism for adults. Vegans are awesome!
That’s all from me..
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Exactly my thoughts, Tripitaka.
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Dairy products needed?
Pity the quarter of the human race that is dairy intolerant!
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I guess I was unclear; I meant the fat from dairy is needed. You can get the fat elsewhere…
I imagine most lactose intolerant people aren’t vegetarian or vegan, and could get lots of healthy fats from fish etc.
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You can get plenty of healthy fats from avocados and nuts.
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I do pity them. It must suck to not be able to enjoy the full range of foods available and have to try to make them up in other ways.
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Good on you! Do what you want with your kids! (from a non vegan)
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I was vegetarian for many years and vegan for a while until I was revealed to be soy intolerant (dodgy thyroid). A diet which emphases plants, grains and variety of protein sources has many benefits whether one chooses to be vegan of not.
I think anything which encourages people to eat real food rather than junk (I was never a bit fan of the heavily processed, imported vegan junk food myself) can only be a good thing. By encouraging our kids to eat vegan we are opening them up to many good food choices (green and leafy, locally grown, diverse grains etc). Even more so if we teach them to cook, I’ve worked at Universities and it has amazed me how many students live off chips because they honestly never learnt to cook.
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Is it wrong to teach kids to show justice and compassion to all animals, both human and nonhuman?
Is it wrong to teach kids to treat their natural environment responsibly?
Is it wrong to teach kids to take charge of their eating and nutrition, to actually think about what they put in their mouths and bodies?
Is it wrong to tell kids the truth – that the lamb in the picture book will be killed for her flesh, that Old Macdonalds chickens are actually raised intensively in sheds, etc. – rather than to promote some sort of dualistic fantasy about cute lambs that have nothing to do with lamb cutlets?
Is it wrong to teach kids that all forms of prejudicial discrimination and harm – whether due to sex, age, race, species, etc. – are not right?
Then what could ever be wrong about teaching kids to live vegan which is the embodiment of all these values?
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Yes! Well said x
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No, it’s not wrong at all.
But understanding all that doesn’t mean you have to be vegan.
Being a meat-eater doesn’t mean you hate animals, or engage in animal cruelty or that you don’t think about what you’re eating or don’t understand where your food comes from.
I tick all the points you’ve listed, and yet I’ve always eaten meat and always will.
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Actually, being a meat-eater generally DOES mean you engage in animal cruelty, because the dollars you’re spending on meat are propping up an industry which commits the cruelty.
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With the same reasoning, being a human that lives in a city is engaging in environmental cruelty, which would include animals. Using all the facilities within a city/town props up many an industry that commits cruelty.
You can take that thinking to the nth degree.
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I sort of know what you mean. I was vegetarian for 2 years, then caved and have been eating fish as well for the past six months.
My mum (who just quietly has a very unhealthy diet), would fire questions/accusations at me at random. Such as ‘but you wouldnt force your children to be vegetarian, would you? You couldn’t do that!’ Umm.. my children? I was 21 at the time and didn’t even have a boyfriend, let alone children.
I heard of a study recently published that a vegetarian diet is suitable, and adequate for anyone, along with vegan as long as you supplement for vit B12. Though I don’t think anything will convince the carnivores!
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I think our protein-obsessed culture at the moment is a fad.
Scientific studies are starting to show that vegan diets are the fountain of youth. Over the next few decades, I think more and more people will start to make the switch.
Having said that, I don’t think they’ll go totally vegan. But I think they’ll stop eating animal proteins and/or dairy for breakfast, lunch, dinner and snacks.
Thanks to my doctor, I am now on a mostly vegan diet, which is starting to treat some of my health problems. I still love EVERYTHING – all meat, all dairy, all sugar, all fast food etc. – but I maintain a highly nutritious vegan diet 95% of the time, which I think is pretty good.
If I had kids, I would definitely want them to start out in life eating this way. On the occasions that they are at a birthday party or the like, they could eat whatever they wanted – that’s what I do! I use going out as my chance to have a ‘cheat meal’. But at home, they’d mostly have a vegan diet.
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What scientific studies?
That’s rubbish, it’s been known for years that a balanced diet is the best for humans. I was taught it at school and there’s been nothing said or done to convince me otherwise.
Given a balanced diet, you won’t get fat and you won’t need supplements of any kind.
So, following basic logic, if you need supplements it means your diet is lacking.
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A balanced diet doesn’t mean ‘a diet with meat in it’ — it means a diet with carbohydrates, fats, proteins, vitamins… all of which can be obtained from a vegetarian diet.
Also, the fact that you were taught something a whole ago at school probably means it’s time to update your knowledge base. New knowledge is always, always coming to light.
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Anon, a balanced diet does not need to inlcude meat. There are many grains that are complete proteins – quinoa and amaranth are just two so really, if you are going to assert someone else’s comment is ‘rubbish’ you should make sure you know what your are talking about first.
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Fountain of youth? My Mum who is 65 (and who’s been vegetarian since she was 15) has health problems like anyone else, looks her age etc. My grandmother, who’s cracking 90 this year has eaten meat her whole life and looks like she’s going to outlive all of us! Moderation is the fountain of youth.
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Vegetarian is not vegan.
As much as I love milk, cheese, yoghurt, butter and ice cream (boy, do I love those things!), dairy is actually really bad for you.
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My doctor is an expert on raw, vegan diets.
She has been able to treat various people’s health troubles, including mine, that no other doctor – including multiple ‘specialists’ – have been able to treat. I am the last person to turn to something ‘alternative’. I hate all that nonsense. But this is not nonsense – it’s science.
She does comprehensive blood tests, she tells me what I need to eat more of, what I need to eat less of, and what I need to cut out completely, and hey presto! I’m cured. I would hardly call that ‘rubbish’.
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There’s Doctors, then there’s doctors.
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Huh?
My doctor is a medical doctor. What did YOU think she was? A witchdoctor?
I found your comment extremely rude. The woman has single-handedly made a tremendous difference to my health and you’re poo-pooing it and suggesting she’s not a real doctor.
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Avi, your post really resonated with me. I also hated, *hated* meat (but loved fish) as a child, and it was a HUGE relief when I left home for uni, and was able to opt for being vegetarian in the college dining hall! I was vegetarian for about 5 years, vegan for another 8 or so, then started eating cheese when struggling with morning sickness in my first pregnancy. So now I’m vegetarian again (no egg…unless it’s in chocolate cake!), and I am fortunate to have married a man whose own mother has been vegetarian for the last 30-35 years, and is totally comfortable with being a vegetarian at home, and raising our kids as vegetarians. We don’t have meat or eggs in the house, although the kids eat egg occasionally at daycare, and we’re considering getting chooks so that we can have our own, more ethically-obtained eggs.
My view on raising kids is that we’re not forcing them. We view meat-eating as “opt-in”, and if they eventually do decide to eat meat, they’ll do it with an understanding of where it comes from. So many (all that I know of???) kids refuse meat, at least temporarily, when they learn where it comes from. And once meat has been eaten, you can “undo” that. So I can spare my kids that anguish, and leave it to them to decide later. I sought advice from a dietitian before introducing my daughter to solids, just to double check that I had all nutritional bases covered…and both are now thriving and healthy. With frighteningly regular bowels
Avi, you’re definitely not the first nerdy vegan! I love being a suit-wearing, public-service-working, ordinary mum living in the burbs, because I love altering people’s expectations in my own quiet way, and normalising something that I’m passionate about.
And *some* dark chocolate is vegan – Lindt 70% for eg. You just have to watch for the brands that contain butter oil or other dairy products.
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This is a subject close to my heart as I married a vegetarian and both my children were brought up as such.
I think that we all are guilty of programming our moral beliefs on our children, not deliberately programming them but we portray certain behaviours as being desirable. For example some of us have an expectation that their children will attend church with the family, or as battlers they vote labour and so on.
In our family we don’t eat meat; as such my children were not given an option. I didn’t say to my four year old “would like chickpea burgers or a juicy bit of a cow for your dinner tonight”. I cooked the meal and served it up and my children either ate it or they didn’t eat it.
Because they were born into a vegetarian household they have never known anything else or considered anything else. As they got older I did point out to them that even though at home we do not eat meat, away from the family home they can make their own choices. To the best of my knowledge they have never consumed any meat. They are now aged 22 and 21.
I did over the years receive a lot of flak from other people for bringing up my children vegetarian. While waiting for my kids outside the school gate, one mother went as far to tell me that I was an unfit mother because all kids need meat to grow properly and I should have my children taken off me and put into a foster home where they would be fed properly.
My kid’s GP was always very supportive of me raising them vegetarian as was my obstetrician when I was pregnant with one baby while still breast feeding another baby.
What gets me is that when subjects like this come up, people throw stones at vegetarian parents as they aren’t giving their children a choice; but it never happens the other way. How many meat eating families offer their four year old a menu at dinner time? “On the menu tonight Julie is lamb chops and salad, or the vegetarian option is stirred fried crispy vegetables with nutty brown rice, which would you like for your dinner?” No they serve up the meal and their kid either eats it or doesn’t eat it.
Over the years I’ve had countless people say to me that their kid wants to be a vegetarian like my kids are, their response to their children has always been that when they grow up and are buying the food and cooking the meals, they can get to choose what they eat or do not eat. In the meantime they’ll eat what they are given.
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I can so relate to this, and you’ve summed up my views precisely…except that I’m the vego/vegan, hubby is the meateater
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There’s a lot worse things people are feeding their kids: soft drink, fast food, chips. Yet people can be so judgmental re those who give up meat. I follow the Paleo eating plan so I’m kind of on the opposite spectrum but I can appreciate how healthy a vegan diet can be.
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Paleo here too! My kids eat this way as well. I don’t buy anything from a packet and make everything from scratch. My daughter and I are coeliac so we are 100% grain free and sugar free. I did nutrition at uni so I have researched extensively before we changed our diet. Humans are not designed to eat grains, they cause inflammation of the gut. Humans need protien and fats to survive. Being a vegan just doesn’t compute in my head BUT each to thier own because lotsof people won’t like our diet
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It’s funny you say this because I’ve been following the blood type diet eating plan for many years now which is also based on no dairy, no grains (except for ancient grains like quinoa, spelt, rye) with the knowledge that these foods cause inflammation of the gut and all the side effects that entails. It hasn’t been easy – my husband and son are red-meat protein based and my daughters and myself are fish/poultry/soy based – but it has been interesting to see how each of us has thrived on the different diets: clear skin, no indigestion, no stomach aches, no headaches, better concentration and for myself a feeling of lightness and energy like never before. I think people need to listen to their bodies and go with what suits them best as it’s not always what suits someone else.
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Absolutely. According to the blood-type diet, I’d be a tragic mess on the paleo diet, and I believe this to be true — I’ve been vegetarian for 13 years and have high iron levels and very low cholesterol. I’m in excellent health and have great skin. So clearly, a diet high in grains and vegetables works for me.
It’s important to listen to your body.
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I became a vegetarian when I was 13, 20 long years ago. I’ve been through all sorts – I was a vegan for 4 years – and have settled now where I eat fish, but no chicken, meat etc. I was probably the healthiest I’ve ever been as a vegan, it’s easy to eat everything you want, but it certainly takes some preparation and planning.
My husband eats meat and when our daughter was born I said I was happy for her to eat meat but I wouldn’t cook it. This seemed fine as we’d shared the cooking before having kids but hubby picked up another job so I didn’t have to work and suddenly I was doing it all. My girl was not the best eater, but the one thing she loved was meat (typical!). So I conceded and while I still don’t eat it, I do cook it. I consider it the absolute greatest reflection of my love when I am mixing chicken mince with grated zucchinis and corn to make burgers for her. I only buy organic / free range which is sooo expensive so we don’t eat it lots anyway.
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People get very judgy-mcjudgerson about vegans and vegetarians. I don’t know why, really… I’ve lost count of the number of people who have seemed to take offence when they’ve found out I was a vegetarian. And then that offence usually turns to a comment that’s mocking, like ‘is all you eat salad?’ or ‘do you think you’re a rabbit?’ Maybe it comes down to people not really getting it? Not sure…
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This happens to me, too, and my theory is that it’s a knee-jerk reaction to the secret guilt they feel (and don’t know they feel) about eating meat.
Otherwise why would they care?
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As a meat eater, I think there’s some truth in this! I feel incredibly guilty most of the time for eating meat, and I always have deep respect for vegos and vegans when I meet them.
Prior to realising my ambivalence and guilt around eating meat, I was quite critical.
I read Peter Singer in an ethics course, and have since found no justification, besides selfish gluttony, for eating meat. So far I’ve managed to reduce my intake, but I have a long way to go.
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Bedizz – your honesty is refreshing.
I suggest the long way to go only appears that way because of social conditioning, etc. Like taking your first dive, the first step is the hardest. But do it for a week and see how easy it is.
If you read some essays on http://www.abolitionistapproach.com or read some of “The World Peace Diet” you will be armed with all the mental stamina you need. And when you finally realise you are not trapped in the institution of the willfil harm and exploitation of other sentient beings you, and those touched by your honest and legitimate respect for all sentient beings, will never be better for it.
A bow to you.
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I think about this too. I’ve been verbally attacked many times for being a vegetarian and have not once attacked someone else for their dietary choices. When people do this, I interpret it as my being a vegetarian even just in itself feels like an attack on them and their choices, so they respond in a defensive manner and attack back, even though it’s completely unnecessary! I think some of it could also stem from ignorance, as you say.
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Avi, it is quite easy to get vegan chocolate. Dark chocolate is dairy free.
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I have one child who is a meat lover and one who is a vegetable lover. They showed a preference from a very young age.
I make the meat lover eat veggies but I don’t force meat on the other child, she does eat cheese, eggs etc. Most of my friends with more than one child find huge variations in their food preferences.
You’ll figure it out when the time comes. It’s not like the diet you start them on can’t be changed throughout their lives.
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I was an incredibly fussy eater when I was a kid. Had the same food served up to me as my brother, who wolfed everything down & ate everything I stuffed onto his plate as well. I didn’t like meat or fish when I was younger, for meat it was a textural thing and with fish I was always scared of fishbones. I eat most things now but I’m sure I drove my parents insane.
My friends daughter is a vegan, she’s in her first year at high school. She was a vegetarian for about 2 years before that. Her initial reason for turning vegetarian was not wanting to harm animals. My friend was really worried about the veganism but they’ve done some research on it & discussed it with the family doctor to make sure her health isn’t suffering. She’s getting all her nutrients, has great skin & her weight is stable.
We’re not sure how long she’ll stick it out but so far she’s going really well.
I know there are posters out there who no doubt will disagree with this and call my friend a bad mother. To those people I say “Whatever, anonymous.”
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My cousin is vegan, and she is raising her little girl with a vegan diet. Neither of them are lacking in the health department. Both are very healthy, active people.
Actually, I’m quite proud of her. She has something she believes strongly in and lives her life accordingly. I would love to be vegetarian, but unfortunately I love meat too much!
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I truly believe kids become fussy eaters because they’re not exposed to a wide variety of foods. I cook everything for my kids. I dont eat fish because I dont like the taste or smell, it makes me heave. But I dont want my kids developing my aversion so I cook it weekly and they all like it. They have been served the same meal as me and my husband since they could eat, and I’ve never had the fussy complaining about food like a lot of my friends kids do. But these kids have always had special kids meals made for them, hence they havent had to eat salmon or curry or vegetables regularly. They usually only like pasta and chicken schnitzel because thats all mum has ever cooked for them. And now they complain when they’re served other foods because they’re not used to eating them.
That being said if one of my kids showed signs of not liking certain food groups, I would allow that from around the age of 13 or 14. One of my kids doesnt really like meat but I make her eat it because its part of a normal well balanced diet. Once she’s 13 or 14 she’s allowed to choose not to eat it as long as its being balanced out elsewhere in her diet.
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I’m the same. I’m a pretty adventurous eater, but like everyone I have stuff that I hate. It doesn’t stop me from giving it to KDot though. Also, living with Mum, who is largely vego, I often have vego for dinner (I have my meat at lunch so it’s not a hassle at dinner time), so KDot has been having tofu stirfry, for example, for ages now. She more often than not gets what I make for us, maybe just steamed more or with a bit less soy sauce and less chilli or something.
I don’t think I really agree with forcing a diet as restricted as vegan on a little kid though. Cheese and yoghurt are staples for KDot – I was told to give her full fat to make sure she was putting on weight (she’s a little skinny minny) – how would I do that in a vegan diet?
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Want high fat foods then how about avocados, nuts, seeds, certain pulses, coconut, etc. Or use them in smart combinations with other foods – like nut butters mixed (or hidden) in sauces or fat laden cakes (peanut butter cups, sesame snaps, etc.) Considering cheese and yoghurt are “processed” foods you could also sub any number of “processed” plant based alternatives – there are numerous vegan dairy alternatives available – from milk to cheese to yoghurt to ice cream.
But I’d question why you’d want to load just the fats rather than a good combination of fats/carbs/protein.
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She does get a mixture of everything – carbs, proteins, fats – did you read my comment? But any dietary suggestions for kids under 2 say full fat dairy. Avo is one of the things she doesn’t like, and I can’t send anything with nuts to kindy with her. Also the calcium is good, and she LOVES both. So that’s what she has.
I’m not trying to get her to have a vegan diet, I don’t agree with it myself. I was wondering what a vegan would give.
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I wish that were true. I have four daughters ranging in ages from 7 to 19 and they are all fussy and have all been exposed to a very wide variety of food. They all have their likes and dislikes and it is hard to find one meal that they all like. They have very strong opinions and if they don’t want something there is virtually nothing I can do about it. My eldest is still pretty fussy but is slowly improving, the next one is vastly improved from when she was younger and her diet is probably the best out of all of them, number 3 is trying to improve but still fussy and number 4 is a bit more adventurous but VERY stubborn when she doesn’t like something. It has been a very long protracted process trying to work out the best way to handle their diet and try to instill a good diet in them all. I lead by example and have a very good diet myself but I can only hope they all grow to emulate the example set for them. I refuse to have a huge battle over food so we have ways and means of adjusting the meals to suit if necessary.
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I don’t actually think that there is so much of a single stereotype surrounding vegans anymore. The image I picture IS a slightly nerdy person who is very conscientious and informed about nutrion and the environment (and has a very tidy house and is fastidious about cleaning!). Of course, this stereotype is still a generalisation but at least it’s evolved?
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Thats funny, because when I think of a vegan I think of a hippie with long flowing clothes and sandals!
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I’m vegan and I live in jeans
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Yep, that’s me! Ok, so with 2 kids and another on the way, the tidiness is slipping, but yep…Avi, you’re definitely not the first, believe me
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Nick Minchin is vegan… he hardly fits with the hippy stereotype either!!
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Ha ha ha yep, that’s me
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