by MIA FREEDMAN
What’s the difference between a scented candle and an unwanted pregnancy? There isn’t one! They’re both gifts and should be accepted with smiling gratitude.
When Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum was asked earlier this year how he’d feel if his daughter was raped and became pregnant, he insisted he wouldn’t want her to have an abortion and would instead encourage her to see the pregnancy as ‘a gift’.
Last week, Richard Mourdock, the Tea Party-backed Republican Senate candidate in Indiana, declared during a debate that he was against abortion even in the event of rape because after much thought he “came to realize that life is that gift from God. And even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen.”
This word is often used by people opposed to abortion and at first, it seems like a reasonable one. Babies are a gift, aren’t they? Many new parents use that exact word, especially if they’ve struggled with infertility.
But what about the ones who don’t choose – or want – to be pregnant?
A candle and an unwanted pregnancy do have this in common; neither ‘gifts’ were chosen by the recipient. And that’s where the similarities end. Because lives aren’t plunged into poverty and extreme emotional, mental and physical hardship by a candle that smells like figs. Journalist Caitlin Moran masterfully argues against the idea of unwanted pregnancies being ‘gifts’ in a recent column where she says:
“From the shop floor of pregnancy, childbirth and motherhood, here’s what that gift can entail: tearing, bleeding, weeping, exhaustion, hallucination, despair, rage, anaemia, stitches, incontinence, unemployment, depression, infection, loneliness. Death. Women still die in childbirth. Not as many as used to – but notably more die while receiving any other “gifts”, such as scented candles, or minibreaks. Additionally, “gift” sounds hopelessly inadequate to describe your children, whom you inhale like oxygen, swoon over like lovers and would die for in a heartbeat. I have never done this over a foot spa, book token or vase.”
This week I watched Mitt Romney’s wife Anne on The View face questions about her husband’s strong anti-abortion views and what they could mean for women if he were elected President. She tried to demur, saying it was ‘a very tender issue’ and segued quickly towards less emotive ground. “What most women are saying to me when I talk to them is ‘help’,” she countered with faux gravity, “because they’re in terrible financial strife.”
At that point, I had a shouting-at-the-TV moment. “Can’t you see the connection between those two things, Anne? Forcing women to have babies they don’t want and can’t afford to look after pushes them into poverty!”
Naive people believe restricting access to abortion will stop women from having them. Even better, make it illegal! More gifts! Smarter people understand women will always find ways to control their fertility, even if it means risking their lives. The idea of forcing a ‘gift’ onto someone who desperately doesn’t want it is baffling. And cruel.
I’ve always wondered how anti-choice crusaders measure their ‘success’. Is it by an increase in the number of children who are abused or neglected? Perhaps it’s by the number of women who abandon their education or employment? The percentage of mothers forced onto welfare? Or maybe ‘success’ comes in the form of more families pushed below the poverty line. Is that what a gift looks like?
Nobody wants the abortion rate to be high. Not pro-lifers. Not pro-choicers. On that much, we agree. I personally believe in the ‘Safe, affordable & rare’ philosophy. But when it comes to reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies, consensus evaporates. Poof. Gone.
The idea that prevention is better than cure is a no-brainer and particularly relevant to reproductive health in Australia where our rate of abortion (19.7 per 1000 women) and teen pregnancy (17.3 per 1000 women) is high compared with other Western countries. One strategy to lower those numbers was making emergency contraception (the morning-after pill or ECP) available over the counter without a prescription. Has it worked? Kind of.
A recently published Australian study of over 600 women aged 16 to 35 found that just under half (48%) knew they could get it over the counter and up to 60% of women didn’t understand how it worked.
What if we went one step further? What if all contraception was free? Fact: free contraception would dramatically lower the number of unwanted pregnancies and abortions in Australia.
The Contraceptive Choice Project, conducted by researchers at Washington University proved this beyond doubt. In 2007, they enrolled 9,256 women aged14 to 45 and gave them access to free contraception for two years. The results were dramatic. The annual birth rate among teen girls dropped by more than 80 percent and the abortion rate among women of all ages dropped by around 70 percent.
How bizarre then that the groups and people most vehemently opposed to abortion are the same ones who don’t want to make contraception (or sex education) more widely available. “It seems illogical,” explains Australian ethicist Leslie Cannold, “but it makes perfect sense if your real problem is the idea of women having sex outside of marriage for reasons other than childbearing.” Ka-ching. Now I understand the connection. Hello Catholic Church. “While the majority of religious people in Australia are pro-choice,” add Cannold, “nearly all anti-choicers are religious.”
So here’s a thought, why aren’t we considering the idea of free contraception as a way to reduce abortions? Because that would be a true gift to women, to men and to society.
And then there’s this. In a debate this week Republican candidate Richard Mourdock said that “even when life begins with that horrible situation of rape, that is something God intended to happen.” Sigh.







Comments
459 Comments so far
UK has free contraception and still has one of the highest rates of teen pregnancy in the world. This policy would need to be introduced with some pretty comprehensive safe sex education in schools and community centres, etc.
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First, the US needs to remove the stigma and shame in its society around teen sex – and accept that teens are hormonal and sexually curious and inevitably will insert their bits into each other. It is just fact. Been happening since time began. It is better that they do this informed. Stop teaching abstinence as sex education. Fear won’t prevent teen sex from happening, but ignorance will create babies after the fact.
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Easy access to “free” contraceptives will make no difference. Condoms are dirt cheap and accessible everywhere. The pill requires a script and will cost next to nothing. Plus just using “the pill” – does not give any guarantees, plus it does not protect you from other STIs.
We all know how it works at this point.
Be responsible for your actions and use protection. Practice safe sex. It’s not hard. Everyone knows how to use protection and those who aren’t doing it, well aren’t. Of course there are real (but rare) issues of rape pregnancies, and those absolute freak pregnancies where you are using the pill and 10 condoms and you still manage to get pregnant, but most of us know what we are doing when we decide not to protect ourselves
I say spend the money on more realistic ventures – like maybe improving sex education within school.
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I find this attitude a bit infuriating!
Contraception failures are high. being a public forum i want to be careful not to identify anyone, but one couple i know got pregnant properly using the pill, with an Iud (old copper) and after a tubal ligation.
others I know have no idea how the pill failed – same time every day, no abs, nausea, vomitting or diorreah.
Another got pregnant at 43, 18 months after a follow up semen test after ‘the snip’ to check there were no sperm.
Another with implanon in.
Some progressed with the pregnancies, some had terminations, some the pregnancy wasn’t viable.
But being ‘responsible’ doesn’t make you immune to an unwanted pregnancy.
I’ve never had an unwanted pregnancy, but now that my family is finished I more fully understand the terror of one, despite taking more than one precaution.
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Once on the pill and once with the NuvaRing here, Dee.
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I don’t think their point was that anti-abortion – just anti spending government funds on free contraceptive. I agree that free contraceptive does not solve anything, because people know how to access it. But I agree it is not fool proof at all, but giving it away for free without educating people more in schools of the merit of safe sex means s*** all.
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Check your facts. Contraception is not 100% safe. I went through the odds with my ob when I found out I was unexpectedly pregnant at 34 with my baby girl. We were surprised but happy, since we were going to have another one anyway just not quite so quickly after our little boy!
Anyway, the maths works as follows, (approximately);
The pill I was on was 99% effective. Meaning that 1 in 100 times it will not work. There is a 3-8 day window each month when you can become pregnant, depending on how long your partner’s sperm can survive. this means that about one in every 4 weeks you have a fertile window, (or 25% of the time). Every time you have sex during your fertile window, you have about a 40% chance of becoming pregnant. So, 0.01*0.25*0.4 gives you the odds of about 1 in 1000. Every 1000 times you have sex whilst on the pill, (depending on the type of pill, your virility and your partners, among other things), you will get pregnant.
I have been with my now husband for 18 years. We have certainly had sex more than one thousand times. We will soon be booking in for a vasectomy.
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Its nobody elses business
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I’m married, in my forties, have two teenagers and recently had an abortion.
The baby wasn’t my husbands.
If abortion wasn’t available to me I would have killed myself.
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Much love to you anon.
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We never wanted children (genetics etc. amongst other reasons), so when I found out I was going to have one at age 42, there was no real hesitation. And yes, the baby would have been my husband’s.
He and I are the only ones who know, because I dreaded the ferocity of the judgement that would have come our way.
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Well thank goodness it was anon. Be kind to yourself.
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Good on you both Anons, I never wanted children, husband had two previously, fell pregnant despite the pill and had an abortion. I would have left him with all three if abortion wasn’t available to me – 15 years ago now , still together no regrets.
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Whats with all the pro-abortion stuff on here all the time?
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I don’t think it’s pro-abortion, I think it’s pro-choice – that women, their partners, and sometimes medical staff, are allowed to have a choice on whether to not to have an abortion, allow the baby to be adopted or raise the child. When we are not free to make that choice, then we are not free.
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It’s Pro-CHOICE, gees. Learn the difference.
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Can we please not use the term pro-abortion. Pro means ‘for something’ right? To use that phrase is like presuming that we who are pro choice are against babies and for mandatory abortions. Pro-choice, is just that, pro-CHOICE, to allow women to make the decision WHETHER or not to give birth. Mama Mia also has the right to publish any articles they want. Disagree with the topic by all means but don’t complain its posted in the first place.
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As opposed to the ‘pro-let someone else make a life changing decision for you and allow no recourse’.
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What’s with it “The Wizz”?
Oh, it’s just about a woman’s right to control her fertility and her life.
That’s all.
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True. And as a woman who has faced it at either end of my fertility I have to say that it’s also playing God.
To those of you who are free of faith or spirituality, good luck to you.
It’s also hypocritical to champion a woman’s freedom to get the fetus out in an abortion clinic but to demonise those who choose to get it out in a home birth situation.
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You don’t have to be non-religious to have difficulties with the issues around abortion. As an athiest who doesnt want anymore children I would struggle with this decision and can honestly say I dont know what I would do.
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I just wish 1/10th the effort went in to trying to reduce the number of abortions as went into the ‘its all about me me me’ womens movement.
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Yeah we pesky women would be much better off if we spent more time avoiding rape and getting knocked up rather than yammering on at the men about equality… Where are our priorities?
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I would imagine that free contraception for all would be a huge drain on the budget, perhaps a first step could be to make it free up until the age of 25, most people are working by then.
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I would imagine that all those unwanted pregnancies and children using the public health system, then public education system would be a much bigger drain on the budget…
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The left worrying about financial drains on society’s taxpayers?
I’ll believe it when it happens
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And yet it’s the right who don’t want to reduce the baby bonus…
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The right introduced it as a means of increasing our population through incentivising would be parents to start a family earlier. It was never meant to be a handout for the sake of it. Trust me, it barely gets you through the pregnancy. Reducing the baby bonus increases the stress on the public health system and does nothing to encourage families to start conceiving at an earlier age. It is an economic policy, not a social one.
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Oh wow, I just had a lovely smash of my naivety into my face when reading these comments. I foolishly thought that most people who would read and comment on this website would be pro-choice. Sigh.
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in the past when there were posts about abortion it did sometimes feel like the article had been posted on anti-choice website, thereby encouraging mass numbers of people to comment. i little bit like the vaccine posts…
so try not to lose heart
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First of all, I am very much pro-choice. If you choose abortion over an unwanted pregnancy, that is your business. It isn’t mine. It isn’t any politician’s business, nor is it the business of any preacher, padre or pontiff.
However….for those unable to conceive, the child that you may personally not wish to raise for whatever reason…could ultimately become the greatest gift ever given if put up for adoption.
Obviously, their will be those who disagree strongly with my second paragraph. Just presenting two different thoughts.
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Adoption in Australia would have to be so much more accessible for this to be feasible though
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Open adoption is available in Australia. ie the biological parents can have ongoing contact with the child they relinquish
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Bradley, that involves ‘sacrifice,’ the new dirty word of the modern feminist.
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Yes, anonymous, because its just women who should make all the sacrifices in life, isn’t it?
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As opposed to the choice men have in abortion??? Pfft
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Yep, zero choice yet total responsibility when the child arrives. That is how it works.
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Total responsibility??? REALLY? So when the baby is born, the father goes off and raises the kid on their own with no help at all??
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Total responsibility? Ha ha ha ha!!!! Tell that to all the mothers who have to chase dead beat ‘dads’ through the court when they piss off & avoid paying for their responsibilities – aka their children.
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Yes, that 18 years of total responsibility my ex had for his 2 children….must’ve been overwhelming to see them twice in that time and pay absolutely nothing towards their upbringing.
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I really wish that adoption was both more socially acceptable and also just logistically less challengning in Australia too.
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Being naive here, but why isn’t it socially acceptable to give a child in need a home?
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I am pregnant at the moment, and I have suddenly become public property. Everyone wants to talk to me about what I am having, when I am due, whether I am excited, whether I will breast feed/take maternity leave/use cloth nappies etc… Even people I don’t know.
I imagine answering these questions every time with ‘I am giving the baby up’ would not go down very well.
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Adoption is an option in Australia. A friend of mine got pregnant at 18 and gave her daughter up for adoption. The child was adopted by a lovely family and my friend had ongoing contact with the adoptive family and recently attended her daughter’s wedding. Her daughter has grown up to be a doctor and the outcome has been great for everyone involved.
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catherine, how many years ago was this? If the daughter is now a doctor, it sounds like many years. Take a look at Laura’s comment above yours.
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The adoption was about 25 years ago and was very successful. The biological parents have good , respectful relationships with the adoptive parents and their relinquished child.
Giving a baby up for adoption is not easy, but neither is having an abortion.
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I knew a woman who lost her daughter from sucide because her daughter found out she was a child of rape. I know a lot of other stories through this woman about others who had adopted a child of rape and when that child started looking for its biological parents it left many of them in a devastating place. I see where you are coming from thought and think yeah your right there are lots of couples who would want to raise that child. But you also have to think will this child survive finding out.
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I understand what youre saying, but to me having a child with the intention of giving it away is the worst possible outcome. You bring a child into the world then relinquish responsibility for it. You have to go though pregnancy and (even worse) birth and at the end all you have is a stretched, sagging, torn body, questions from everyone who saw you pregnant and the knowledge that your child is living in the world without your love or protection. That sounds literally like a nightmare.
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These days the relinquishing mother can vet prospective adoptive parents. She is not giving the baby to a stranger and can choose to have an open adoption where she can visit the child and therefore she knows the child is being well cared for.
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the fact that Mitt is willing to impose his religion on laws should automatically disqualify him.
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Geez. He has no intention of imposing anything on anyone! He’s a misogynist, he has a ‘problem with women,’ he is religious … See the pattern here?
It’s so transparent and predictable as to be an insult to our intelligence.
Edenland’s Eden Riley has a direct line to the PM head of Communication! Can you believe that? Everyone knows that they’re using the Mummyblogs to claw back some votes . She asked him if we are seen as a soft target.
Answer: Do you think you’re a soft vote, Eden.
That’s not an answer!! That’s a master manipulator at work.
Wake up everyone. We are being used.
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I totally disagree. While I also totally disagree with his viewpoints any politician is going to bring their own belief and moral structure to the position. At least he is being open about what his beliefs are so the American’s can decide whether they agree with him.
I want to know what my politicians believe in! I want to understand their belief structure so at least I can hazard a guess at what way they will go on a particular issue. Tony Abbott – though I can’t stand him – is at least mostly predictable. Julia Gillard however – has left many of core beliefs behind in her pursuit for power.
I would prefer to disagree with a politician who is deciding policy based upon his own moral/religious compass than one who is swinging with what the polls say.
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American politicians use their religion as a selling point all the time. I cannot think of a president that wasn’t openly christian or regularly attend church. I sincerely doubt an atheist childless woman would ever be elected anything in the US government. We are far more enlightened in many ways.
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Children don’t ask to be conceived and born. They shouldn’t be talked about in terms of importance based on whether or not they were wanted or were an accident or a result of a sexual crime like rape. children don’t choose under what circumstances they are conceived. They are all gift because they are human beings and deserve to live their lives just like u me and everyone else in the world. I am horrified that ppl are actually using conception circumstances and post birth circumstances such as the mother may struggle to support her baby, as a reason to abort. NO ONE CHILD DESERVES MORE CHANCE OF LIVING than any other child. They are all equal and if by chance a mother can’t support her baby or the baby is the result of a rape then there are other options. Like other family members, adoption, foster care. sorry Mia love you but have to disagree. All children and all babies are a gift. Its just that sometimes we get gifts we didn’t expect and we should just say be grateful rather then try and return the “gift”. I am sure all of those couples who cannot conceive due to infertility would never return their gift.
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They may be equal but they do not all have an equal chance at life. This depends entirely on one’s circumstances, and some are just too sad to bear. If you consider for example, a life of child abuse, would you wish that on another human being?
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I do understand your point. And no I would never wish a life of abuse on any child. Maybe in extreme circumstances like that it be best to save the child via abortion before he/she is even exposed to abuse. It just saddens me cuz after the birth of my own daughter I could never imagine giving up on her when.she was only a foetus.
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Jennafer Animals are also gifts and yet we eat and cage and ignore them unless they are cute. Most children I see are spoilt rotten and give nothing back. I know what I prefer and it’s not martyredom to motherhood.
Your opinions are only applicable to you, stop preaching.
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Unless Maddy you have children of ur own don’t be naive enough to compare having children to owning a cat or a dog. This is a forum where differing opinions are welcome so don’t dictate what I can and can’t say just because u don’t agree with me. Come back and talk to me when u have ur own “spoilt” child and then tell me u would prefer an animal. I think animal rights is a completely different topic so wrong time wrong place to preach about it.
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Jennafer- I’m not trying to convince you to stop procreating, you however are trying to convince others on this forum that abortion is wrong and every sperm is sacred. I know many, many children and and like very few. Abortion is a godsend whilst we have contraception that is not failsafe. I also see many parents who obviously missed out on the ‘my child is a gift thing’ and happily ignore them or treat them badly. I know giving birth would no difference at all to my opinion of children so isn’t it fortunate that I didn’t have any! Why are animals different by the way – do you have to give birth to them to want to protect them? Aren’t they also a gift from God?
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Maddy, comparing a child to a mongoose is nothing short of offensive.
You really do have twisted ideals if you believe that to be true
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Anon, are you saying I’m twisted because I prefer animals to children? If so I’d like your opinion on why human life is more important than other life.
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Jennafer, if you were raped and became pregnant by that rape, how would you explain your pregnancy?
If your daughter was raped at and became pregnant by that rape, how would you have her explain that pregnancy?
If your daughter was raped by your husband and became pregnant by that rape, how would you explain that pregnancy to her, and have her explain that pregnancy?
Horrible questions I know. But there’s not only the baby to consider, there is also the woman/child carrying that baby. How do you help them to cope?
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My daughter was a very much wanted gift but there were still times that I wanted to take her back! I can’t imagine going through that for a child who was conceived through violence
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One of the most foul things about Romney and his fellow woman haters is that they actually don’t give a flying crap about what happens to anyone’s baby after it is born. They will protect the rights of a foetus right up until the point that its head is crowning, but then mum and baby are on their own. They don’t support universal healthcare, so too bad if the kid suffers from a chronic illness and the parents can’t afford insurance. Their education system is a world-renowned joke, particularly in poor areas. These are the same people who sneer at people dependent on welfare, yet believe in policies which will result in more young women having welfare as their only choice.
I would stomach the pro-life lobby a whole lot better if I saw genuine concern for children who had taken a breath outside the womb and the women who gave them life, but I don’t see that in any of the current debate.
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Is Romney a misogynist ?
If I rang those nice people over at the Macquarie Dictionary, and asked nicely….do you think that they could turn “Romney” into a synonym of misogynist ?
Sorry. I don’t believe that Romney is a woman hater. Nor do I believe any of the women who support his anti-abortion stance to be woman haters either. I actually found your comment rather hateful, Ellen, if we get down to tin tacks.
Sometimes when I read some of the comments posted on this site, I honestly find it difficult to decide who the haters are and who the haters aren’t. It would seem the only way to get some points across is via hate. The more hateful, the more right.
Wrong !
I keep on thinking about the article the other day. The one that insisted that you are entitled to an opinion only when you can state a well thought out argument to support your opinion.
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Golly, pardon my hateful ideas about educating children and looking after their health. Dreadful, really,
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Furthermore, I think the idea that a woman should be forced to endure an act of sexual violence and then bear her rapist’s child, as these lunatics advocate, is perhaps the most hateful idea about women I have ever heard sprouted. It is chillingly hateful and frightening.
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Loved your comment Ellen, and completely agreed with it. I don’t understand why being passionate about the health and education of mother and child makes you hateful. I think bradley just likes pretending that women can’t possibly have valid points if they’re criticising men. He just turns it into “ah, misogyny, the new catch phrase!” joke. Ridicule is just another version of calling women hysterical.
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I have to stick up for Bradley here. He normally plays devil’s advocate. In any discussion this is vital. After all, if your argument is defensible, you will be able to defend it.
More often than not, Bradley’s replies are an exact reversal of the original comment – substituting male for female, for example, to make the point that a comment may not actually be sexist. It achieves balance, and sites like these thrive on open discussion. Without balance this is not possible.
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Yes but MOTCM, often reversing the gender roles in certain topics can be very problematic. Sexual violence, domestic violence, breast cancer etc-these things effects women at a far greater rate than men. Bradley constantlypopping up to say “this happens to men too” doesn’t help, it just again denies the very real gender slant and the underlyingsexism causing that slant.
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Most f the democrats were reluctant to introduce health care in the US too. They have a far more capitalist ideology than we do in Australia. We are much more socialist on the spectrum and in terms of health care that’s a good thing.
Secondly, Mitt Romney is hardly a woman hater. That is quite a leap. Someone not agreeing with your opinion, doesn’t mean they hate you. It means they don’t agree with you. When we can all learn to accept each other’s opinions the world will be a better place. After all, that is what pro choice is all about.
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Hi Mia I really thought your article today was a bit harsh. I don’t agree with abortion but I’m not the sort of person to be in your face about it. I do though find it hard to understand how easy it is for people to call a baby inside of them just a fetus and not really a human yet, even though it has a beating heart. If someone was to come and punch you in the stomach while you were you pregnant and kill your unborn baby – would you want them to be charged with murder? I would. If so what makes your child more important just because it’s wanted? Why do people care more about an unborn whale then they do their own unborn children? How did society get to the point that to be a “pro-lifer” is a bad thing?
I do agree with you though that banning abortion will not stop them. I also agree that contraception should be free. I believe that education is key. I know it would probably be scoffed at but why aren’t women given the option of adopting their children out? How many women do we all personally know who cannot have children and have to wait years in the adoption process and sometimes they miss out. What an amazing gift to not only give life to a child but also give a couple a child they’ve always longed for. It would take a really unselfish woman to do that for their child.
In regards to the rape comment, the amount of abortions happening from rape are very small. I find the women who are so in your face pro choicers are mostly those who’ve had them themselves and want to feel ok about it. Sometimes life is hard and sometimes we’re dealt things that are really difficult, but is having an abortion the only option that women should be encouraged to choose?
In the end everyone has their own opinion and is entitled to it, I know what it’s like to fall pregnant unexpectedly and I also know what it’s like to be a parent and have everything that comes with it, the good and the bad times. I know the good outweighs the bad by far.
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Hi Lisa C. Thanks for your comments which largely reflect my thoughts. If a baby is born to a family without the means to support it then the parents have the option (in Australia and America) to put that baby up for adoption by families who would desperately want and love them. Why are the options seen in start black and white 1. Abortion or 2. Life of poverty and abuse. There are other options for people who find themselves in the terribly difficult place of being pregnant with and unwanted child.
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Women with an unplanned pregnancy are always aware that adoption is an option. But it’s an option that involves a full term pregnancy and birth, and a lot of women, having grown a child inside them and given birth to it, would be totally unable to give it up for adoption. I think it’s quite rare that women have abortions without considering all other options. I’m one of those “in your face” pro-choicers. I haven’t had an abortion, and I think I would have found abortion a very difficult thing to deal with, but I absolutely believe that access to safe, legal abortion is a cornerstone of women’s self determination and overall well-being.
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Vegas, agree with your comments 100%.
I think for many women, aborting a pregnancy in its earlier stages is a lot less difficult than the prospect of adoption. I would imagine carrying a baby full term, then physically having the child in front of you makes it a lot harder to give up. It’s also very public that you had an unwanted pregnancy when everyone you know knows you’re pregnant and you give your baby away.
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Mia, is the above an old photo of you or are you pregnant again?
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Not pregnant again. Not an old photo. Just my stomach.
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Stomach? Where?
I’m glad Guest can’t see a picture of my gut.
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Awkward! I think it’s more the way you have your hands cradled under your tummy that would give someone the wrong impression. I didn’t think you looked preggers… And I love those orange and pink tones on you Mia.
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I was just thinking that you look very slim and that dress is really flattering, horizontal stripes and all.
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I wish my stomach would do that!
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I wonder if guest would have asked you that in person. Your article is so much more than the picture of you. Why do people have to have to comment on a photo and your body.
Great article but most notably an important article!
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No one has the right to impose their views on anyone else or compel them to conform to their standard of morality! No one have the right to foist the results of their irresponsible or foolish action onto anyone else! Each must take responsibility for their action and how they deal with the consequences.
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I would agree with your sentiments there, Bill.
No one has the right to force their moral standards upon anyone else. If you agree with someone’s stance, you agree with it. If you don’t, then you don’t.
It’s the people who look at you like you’re something that they’ve stepped in when you disagree with them that I can’t stand. The topic can be abortion, gender “warfare”, your past or future voting intentions. They’ll crucify you if you happen to get a word in. Mostly, they will just prevent you from being heard.
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If something has a heartbeat then it’s alive. A fetal heartbeat can be detected somewhere between 5 and 7 weeks. You can dress abortion up in all the feminist rights bonnets you like but abortion is murder. Personally, I think it’s the right of all women to choose and I’d be horrified if our abortion laws were changed, which they won’t be.
Having said that, you’d better damn well hope that the atheists are right. And remember, they have no proof that they are, just their own arrogance.
As for making it free? Tell me you’re joking! There are women in the world who don’t have enough food to keep themselves alive and we precious Aussie girls now want the rest of the country to fork out for our contraceptives?! That is embarrassing.
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And…Anonymous did you want to hazard a guess as to why this might be the case??? because we might have too many people on this planet…because we are using up too many resources like food…because these women are probably too flat out feeding a tribe of about 5 or more kids because there wasn’t access to CONTRACEPTION in the first place thus the full circle of not having enough food for themselves.
Responsible family planning which involves cheap access or better still free access to contraceptives means it gives women more choices and prosperity in life. It has a knock on effect that benefits society as a whole. And that ultimately will effect someone like yourself…where your taxes won’t be be eaten up with more children than our present infrastructure can sustain. I’m telling you…contraception is whole lot cheaper econonmically than our taxes supporting kids neither their parents or society as a whole can afford. Look at the Phillipines as an example. A poor country where there is limited access to secular education and contraception. the Catholic Church having way too much to say in public policy and how their population live and survive. Don’t you think that country would benefit from easy access to abortion and contraceptives? Think about it.
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Having a heartbeat = life?
That is not entirely true and is severely minimising the issue.
For example, you also need a brain….to say the very least.
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A disabled person whose brain doesn’t function is still alive.
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Not true. A disabled person whose brain doesn’t function is dead. Just like anyone. I think you need some basic lessons in biology.
The brain, just like the heart, needs certain parts to be functioning to be considered alive. ‘disabled’ people aren’t always disabled due to poor brain function. But if they are, they still have function. Just has someone with damaged heart from, say, heart attack, are still considered living if the heart remains functioning, even though it has been damaged.
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Why have you made this a swipe at athiests. I’m athiest and I’m not arrogant but I do know plenty of religious people who are. Arrogance isn’t confined to a particular group of people and nor is the tough decision of abortion. You don’t have to believe in god to feel that this is a huge moral issue regardless of faith. I am pregnant and I’ve had my first 2 scans before I found out whether there were any problems. Thankfully there were not, but the thought that we would have to make this decision after we’ve seen it’s heart beating, it’s little tiny fingers and toes etc was heart wrenching and I don’t know what we would’ve done. Religious people don’t have ownership over morality.
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Yeah, because there aren’t enough humans on the planet already. Breed,consume, die. It is confronting when you put it like that, but at a basic level what else do we do? And yes I am a mother, but I am sick of the “motherhood as a sacred right” school of thinking.
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We so easily make this a 2 choice discusion – a preganent woman can either abort an unwanted pregnancy or suck it upand live with the consequences. What about encouraging a woman to carry her baby to birth then adoption to a family that can afford and really want the baby. Why are we so quick to put forward that the only way is either abortion or for a mother to be stuck with an unwanted baby causing her hardship.
There are 100′s of families waiting to adopt in Australia and only about 45 babies up for adoption each year.
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Because in most cases, adopting a baby out is even more heart-wrenching and soul-destroying than abortion is. And ultimately, it is an unwanted baby that is more likely to become an unwanted teen and adult.
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Did you miss the bit and incontinence and death? Babies don’t just pop up in a cabbage patch one morning. Childbirth is a horrifying prospect if you’re not actually wanting to go through it.
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and why is that do you think? Adoption brings about a whole other set of problems, which we have seen in other articles here on MM. It is not the holy grail easy answer. It messes with everyones heads involved. With sometimes pretty serious and dramatic consequences.
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Yeah, because adoption always works out soooo well for everyone involved – not.
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I look forward to your columns in the Perth Sunday Times STM every week. This week has me writing to you to tell you so. I also watched Ann Romney on The View and was shouting at the TV. I was a little disappointed that Joy didnt make her more accountable for those comments because I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments. I guess we can only hope that the American voters were as frustrated with her comments as we were. I must say as well, that I believe Mitt threw her to the wolves by pulling out of the interview. Another sign of how he treats women perhaps?
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Is there a problem with the spam filter? Or maybe it’s my computer? Two comments haven’t come up from this morning..
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I believe a baby is a baby when you want it, prior to that, to me it’s a bunch of cells. The moment you decide yes I want this baby, then call it that, prior to that it is a decision to be made, by the woman it’s her body, her partner (if in the picture) and that’s pretty much it. The American Republicans are a classic – I’ll stay out of their penis’s just keep out of my vagina!
I have two wonderful adult children but when my youngest was 5, we married for over 9 years accidentally fell pregnant again. We couldn’t afford another child, and not because we had a huge mortgage or wanted more stuff, but because we were both in low paying jobs living week to week. It was an agonising decision which took us weeks. I am pro-choice but hope that you (women) never need to make it.
I have not regretted it, I have not imagined what this child would have been, what this world missed out on because that didn’t happen, so how can we even imagine. This is just a way of making women feel guilty for their decision.
It is our bodies, our lives, our finances, our decision to live with. Not long after my husband had a vasectomy and we’ve been fine ever since.
I didn’t “kill” my baby because it was not a living, breathing baby that we wanted, I’m sorry if others have a different opinion, this is mine.
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Just interested then what you would say to someone who was full term in their pregnancy and doesn’t want the baby and decides to have an abortion?What should we call it?A fully formed human or just a bunch of cells.
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Wow, really? I can’t believe you just wrote that.
Do you really think that any Doctor would even perform an abortion in that circumstance? I do believe there are Laws against that.
Your histrionics add nothing to this discussion.
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Actually in Victoria it is legal to have an abortion right up until birth. There does not have to be anything physically wrong with the baby. As long as two doctors sign off on the abortion it can go ahead.
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It’s not quite as simple as two doctors “signing off”.
From the Act:
5 Termination of pregnancy by registered medical
practitioner after 24 weeks
10 (1) A registered medical practitioner may perform an
abortion on a woman who is more than 24 weeks
pregnant only if the medical practitioner–
(a) reasonably believes that the abortion is
appropriate in all the circumstances; and
15 (b) has consulted at least one other registered
medical practitioner who also reasonably
believes that the abortion is appropriate in all
the circumstances.
(2) In considering whether the abortion is appropriate
20 in all the circumstances, a registered medical
practitioner must have regard to–
(a) all relevant medical circumstances; and
(b) the woman’s current and future physical,
psychological and social circumstances.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/bill/alrb2008219/
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Yes, the above information is correct but nowhere is there any requirement that anything be physically wrong with the baby.
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NO ONE would perform an abortion when the baby’s full term, so what’s your point again.
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I would call that a person that has left it to late, & now does have a baby to deal with and if they don’t want it, one it’s too late & their only other choice is probably adoption.
When I talk about abortion it’s in the space of time where it is legally acceptable, if you’ve gone full term it’s illegal to have an abortion. And late term abortions are only available for medical defects, now in this case the mother would have wanted the baby and some still choose to carry the baby full term even though their baby may only live a few hours. Women my heart goes out to.
An abortion when it is legally acceptable is between a woman, her partner (if in the picture) and her Doctor.
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There are some conditions that are incompatible with life that get discovered late in pregnancy. Some couples will opt for continuing the pregnancy and then waiting for the baby to die. Others will opt for late term abortions. It’s an incredibly difficult decision but what would you do if you found out your baby was doomed at 28 weeks? If you leave the pregnancy alone it may increase your chance of obstetric complications and that could impact on your chance of having a normal pregnancy and delivery next time. These decisions are not taken lightly at all.
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And where in Australia does that happen Anon?
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Victoria
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This is such a difficult, emotive topic. I am pro- choice for others but not for me. When I was much younger I was very much pro- choice for myself. I fell accidentally pregnant (with my now husband). Totally unplanned. We thought about abortion and were ready to say yes and go to a clinic. However, while waiting for an appt, I started bleeding and we went to the hospital. They did a vaginal ultrasound and found a 7 week old foetus. And there was no doubt in our minds this was a baby, even at 7 weeks there was a beating heart, arms and legs, a head and it was moving! It was an incredibly emotional time. So where is my own personal “line in the sand” now? We need much better, cheaper access to contraception. And after seeing how “complete” a seven week foetus is, we need better access to early diagnosis and care prior to when a baby develops a heartbeat. That is my line though, and I do not condemn other women who have a different line. Actually, that’s not quite true, I would judge a woman who has a late term abortion for non medical reasons. I just haven’t worked out what I define as late term.
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Free or cheaper contraception is a great concept (whether in Australia or elsewhere), however will make no difference at all unless properly taken / administered. I do think couples ought to be more aware, conscientious and careful if they don’t wish to conceive.
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Absolutely. We also need more contraceptive options for men!
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Catholics (just as an example) and their leaders hamper access to contraception because it’s all about creating more Catholics – that’s more donations, more adoration, more control of fertility and the control of women.
I’m a cynic when it comes to the transparent religious agenda – and the sanctimonious and patriarchal drivel that politicians engage in if they think there’s a vote in it.
I’ve never had an issue with people of simple faith who do no harm to others…………..but this DOES do harm – everybody knows that.
Contraception in our world of dwindling, safe resources is a moral obligation.
Only use what you need, only breed what you can feed.
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I’m Catholic & know a lot of Catholic women, we all use contraception & it is certainly never something discussed with our parish priests. I find religion a little like politics, you will never agree with everything espoused but take what works for you. I would guess that most modern western Catholics use some form of contraception & would encourage their children to take precautions.
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“I find religion a little like politics, you will never agree with everything espoused but take what works for you.”
Jackie… have you ever thought about running for Pope? If I were a Cardinal, I would vote for you
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Why do we always have to give out ‘freebies’? What ever happened to people looking after their own shit?
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Not everybody has the capacity or means to “look after their own shit”, as you so put it. There are a lot of people out there that need a helping hand. Open your eyes and open your heart.
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So, who do you think will pay for this ‘free’ contraceptives? I don’t know how any person could not afford contraceptives. Health care card holders get the pill for about $5 for 3 months. $5 x 4 prescriptions = $20 PER YEAR!! (or around $90-$100 p/y for those who have to pay full price). You can’t tell me people cannot afford that. Seriously, when you weigh it up, if you are a sexually active person you CANNOT afford to not have contraceptive.
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Err i don’t know where you’re getting your information from! Maybe that’s a generic pill that won’t work for everyone, because i’ve been a health card holder for years and my pill is still expensive!
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I work with homeless people, lollybag, who don’t have 20 cents to their name at the end of the day, so yeah, there are some people who cannot afford that !
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100% agree that contraception should be free. Still very confused why a mother (rape aside) gets to choose whether a person lives or dies
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She’s not necessarily a mother though is she. She’s a woman. And she doesn’t decide whether a “person” lives or dies, because until they are born, they are not a person.
Rape is not the only reason women desperately need abortions.
To save a child from being born into an abusive marriage is another one.
Mental illness of the mother or father (or both) is another one.
Retarded, impaired or incompetent carers is another one.
When the mother discovers she is HIV positive (or some other affliction) and risks passing this onto the baby.
Serious illness or defects of the unborn baby is another one.
Where the father or community of carers is absent.
OR more simple reasons include teen pregnancy where the birth of a child to a 13 year old girl would prove a risk to all involved.
Financial reasons – where the child could die of starvation/poverty linked disease.
Lifestyle reasons – where the couple have a special needs child and would not cope with the demands of another child (even healthy).
Any situation in which the child is unwanted – by the mother/father/family.
I could go on aaaaaaaall day. And I am just a woman with open eyes and an open mind. I don’t even know anyone who has had an abortion, nor have I had one myself. I haven’t read up on the topic either. But I am not confused, because I notice that the situations described above actually go on in the world. And I wish others would open their eyes also.
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I actually agree with your post, I am not pro abortion and don’t think I could do it myself BUT do believe no one should be forced to do something they are not ready for (for whatever reason).
However, you are incorrect that a person is not a person until they are born… A baby who is growing in their mothers womb at 24 weeks gestation is no less a person than a baby who is born, and survives, at 24 weeks. From 20 weeks gestation, a baby born alive or otherwise is entitled to a birth certificate. Non-people do not get birth certificates. And I am not disputing that prior to 20 weeks a baby is not a person, I am just clarifying that this point is in fact incorrect both from a legal standpoint and a logical standpoint.
But as I said, I agree with your post that there are many reasons why people cannot (and in some cases SHOULD not have a child).
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No one is ‘pro-abortion’.
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From a legal stand point you are not a person until you draw your first breath. You cannot commit an offence against a child/ fetus in the womb . Any harm done to the child is legally considered an aggravating feature of the harm done to the mother.
So yes, if a baby is born @ 24 weeks, and takes that first breath, they are a person, if they die in the womb they are not.
The Janet Frazer case will be interesting to watch- they must prove that the baby was not stillborn to prove charges of neglect or fail to render assistance et al
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Actually you can the law was changed at the start of this year. If you intentionally assault / hurt comitt a crime against a pregant woman that results in the loss of her unborn child you will be charged with loss of life, whilst its not murder the sentence is life is prison the same sentence as a murderer. These laws where changed due to the high amount of domestic violence acts against pregant woman.
This charge is also on top if the assault charge
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In which Jurisdiction?
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That is what I meant by Aggravating circumstances- assault on a pregnant woman carries a higher penalty. Not because of the ‘ loss of life” of the fetus but because of the vulnerabilty of the woman in the circumstances. This higher penalty can also apply even in cases where you don’t know the women is pregnant- for example if you drive negligently and and cause an accident, injuring a pregant woman and causing a miscarriage. But let’s be clear the “harm” in legal terms is perpertrated against the woman, not the fetus/ child in the womb. They are not a legal entity in their own right until they draw their first breath.
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I am currently pregnant with a baby I did not want. I have accepted it and basically crossing my fingers everything will be okay.
I could not have an abortion, but I came pretty dam close. My reasoning for it, I had only been with the child’s father 2 months, I was finally getting my career back on track and about to buy a house for me and my nearly four year old.( her father and i divorced)I worked really hard to get my life on track and get out of the single mother poverty cycle. Whilst I decided against having an abortion, I’m very grateful to have had the option. I am giving up a lot for this baby and because of that choice, I know I will never resent my baby boy for everything, because it was my choice . Also as others have said I don’t understand why abortion is such a government issue, the only person my decision affected directly was me, my now fionce and our daughters.
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Religion doesn’t have a monopoly over compassion, humanitarianism or philanthropy!
“Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer” – Christopher Hitchens
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Oooops…this was meant as a reply much further down and probably makes no sense here out of context :/ Not a regular poster as you might have gathered
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Actually kd, independent research shows that religious people give much more to charity, both money and their time as volunteers. In addition, the institutions themselves (not the individuals) do a vast amount in this area.
To those that work with religious charities and the like, a blanket statement that the world would be better off without their belief and efforts is offensive and disrepectful to believer of any faith.
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I am not religious, I guess I’d call myself Agnostic. I’m definitely not a fan of organized religion but when you think about it many of the charities that help people here in Australia have religious groups behind them (Salvos, St. Vinnie’s etc) If they were all to disappear overnight a lot of people would suffer and I’m not convinced that there would be many secular organizations stepping in to fill the gap.
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Our teen pregnancy rate is low compared to the uk where it is between 30-40 per 1000 depending on the area( 15-17 year olds). And they have free contraception! I really don’t think making it free will make any difference.Clinics with Implanon for free in high risk schools may be better. Contraception day – Gardisil Vaccine and an Implanon on the same day? Makes the choice alot easier
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The USA baffles me, how can a country advanced in many areas be so backward in others? They dont have compulsary voting, they dont have to wear seatbelts, they have the right to carry a firearm but will happily dictate a womans rights over her own body? & also refuse to teach teenagers sex ed? Bizarre.
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Dear America,
at your next election, please don’t inflict these crazy republicans on us,
thanks, rest of the world.
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Amen to that.
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With modern methods around us these days, a person does have a choice. I’d hate to be put in the dilemma of this choice ‘though.
In the past people were not so lucky. I have a friend whose mother is 15 years older than her. She fell pregnant and her choice was to give the baby away. But ultimately could not do it, talked it over with her boyfriend and they decided to get married and keep the baby. Mother and daughter are close as anything, parents are still together. But might I add that it has been a hard haul to have a marriage that young and it could have crumbled many times, but due to persistence and mutual concern for each other and the family as a whole they stuck it out and insodoing learned alot about life, love and what is important.
Each event in our lives is an opportunity for self scrutiny – if we choose to do so.
I also know many women who have chosen abortions when they were not ready to have a baby, and later, they found it very difficult to get pregnant.
I do know my friend’s mother would not have known the joy of her wonderful daughter had she chosen abortion. Maybe she would have ended up a lonely isolated women instead. Who knows. Life is what you make of it and it is your personal decision for sure. But sometimes it is hard to determine the blessing from the curse on the spur of a moment.
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If I fell pregnant right now, I would (after discussing/confirming it with my partner) have an abortion.
We take precautions (x 3 – pill, condom, he pulls out), so pregnancy is unlikely to happen, but if it did, abortion would be my choice.
We are not ready to have a child. We have plans to travel for 12 months next year, and are not financially ready either. Having a child now would mean a poorer life for the child, because we couldn’t provide for it the way we would want to, and a lack of life experience for us, having never travelled. I also know that we could never give a baby up for adoption – we’d ‘want’ to, but wouldn’t be able to go through with it.
In two to three years’ time, though … hello baby. That’s the plan, anyway.
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See this is exactly why abortion is so rife. Because you are taking part in an act which was created for pro-creation without being prepared/ready for that outcome. You want to travel, you want to better your career, YOU WANT YOU WANT YOU WANT. It’s all about you. Why do you think IVF is such common place now? Because women have been taking the pill their whole lives and it’s messed with their fertility, abortion messes with your body, and obviously, the older you get and the longer you wait until YOU’RE ready, the less chance you have of conceiving. One day people will realise the negative impacts of their self indulgent ways.
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Goodness me, Guest. ChoiceBro has said she uses contraception. She’s being responsible if you ask me.
What’s wrong with wanting things such as travel and a good career? And who else should it be about when there is only you to consider? The minute a child comes along that changes, of course, but if you use 2 types of contraception I’d say you’re doing your utmost to prevent that from happening.
But let’s look at your post. I’d like to see your evidence for stating that the pill interferes with fertility in a way that prevents pregnancy from occurring once you’ve stopped taking it. I’d like to see your evidence that abortion messes with your body and I’ll come back and show you evidence that childbirth messes with your body. Everything has risks, as you so eloquently point out.
What would you have us do? Not have sex outside of marriage? Not have sex at all unless it is with the express purpose of conceiving a child? Have a child with an unsuitable partner or before the age of 25 because, well, you know, it only gets harder as you get older? Who cares if you’re not right for each other. You’re fertile. Get cracking. Don’t complain when you meet Mr Right and you’re too old to have kids. You should have though of that, you selfish, self indulgent woman.
I will concede that contraception is not as well used as it should be. I will concede that sometimes people don’t think things through. I do not agree with your somewhat angry outburst that seems to imply that anyone who has sex without wanting to have a baby as a result is a selfish, self indulgent & thoughtless person.
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You said that much more nicely than I would have. Thanks.
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Couple of things:
1. I don’t think abortion is currently rife. It’s not as if every second woman is going out there and getting an abortion. Generalization like that doesn’t help any argument.
2. ‘an act which was created for pro-creation’? So we’re not meant to enjoy sex, ignore our feelings of desire and attraction and everyone should practice no sex before marriage? And even when people do get married, they’re not always ready for children straight away – so are they supposed to not act on their feelings for each other until they are ready to have children? Seems a bit of a simple view of sex.
3. ‘its all about you’. Of course it is all about you. I don’t have children yet, but the only reason I will be having one is because I want to have one. Not to pass on my genes, not because it’s what society needs, but because I actually WANT a child.
I fully agree with ChoiceBro in that it’s better to wait until you are in a position to actually give your child the best possible upbringing you can give them.
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2. ‘an act which was created for pro-creation’? So couples should only have sex in order to pro-create?
No sex until you are planning to have a child?
No sex unless you have pre-tested to ensure the female is ovulating?
No sex if one or the couple is infertile?
No sex after menopause?
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I thought there was some information about abortion and it being much more common amongst married couples with children who had an ‘oops’ pregnancy when they;d decided they were done with kids.
That would be the one choice I would go for now. I have two kids, a diagnosed rare genetic disease (which one of my kids inherited from me). I can’t carry another pregnancy – it would be detrimental to my own health. I had a tubal ligation but if for some reason that failed, I would choose an abortion. I can’t adopt out a child of my own, especially if it had inherited my disease but I can’t have a child. Here’s hoping I’m not the one of the small number of tubal ligations that fail every year.
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Oh esseesse and Choice Bro, “Guest” has spelled it out to us selfish and indulged recreational sex hussies.
Anti-choicers ( or more appropriately, compulsory birthists) have confected a pro-woman tactic to rebrand themselves by concocting a fake mental illness called “Post-Abortion Stress Syndrome,” and hoped that the psychological establishment would one day validate it, and their beliefs. Their strategy is that Bad Girls who do the most Bad thing you can do — get an abortion — would be more likely to be mentally ill than other women, demonstrating that having sexual and independent rights is damaging to women.
The solution is to construct a mythological Good Girl to defend against all those Bad Girls, with their non-procreative sex-having, salary-making ways. The Good Girl is sweet, submissive, religious, maternal, and self-sacrificing. She doesn’t like sex and doesn’t want to be in that scary world of work. But she does love marriage and babies, and is willing to begrudgingly tolerate sex to get the marriage and babies. Bad Girls like sex, and want to have it even if they can’t get pregnant. Bad Girls dare think about other things besides marriage and babies, even if they do want to get married and have a baby or two.
The clever contribution compulsory birthists made to this quaint old virgin-whore dichotomy was their position that all women are, deep down inside, baby-loving, sex-reluctant, marriage-crazed Good Girls. Bad Girls only exist because they’ve been broken by feminism and legal abortion. Bad Girls are mentally ill, and just need to be forced into motherhood by losing access to abortion and contraception to turn them into Good Girls, who may not be happy, but are well– in the sense of functioning properly.
See, we Bad Girls must follow in the footsteps of the obedient Good Girls and become truly enlightened about our wicked, wicked ways.
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And we can see how well it works out for the good girls when their bad men go and trade them in for a younger model and they are alone in the world with kids and a skill set that is not needed by any employer. Ace!
Women have to look after themselves, I don’t trust any man to put my interests first and I married a “good” one who does. For now, anyway. I am willing to bet a significant amount of money that most of todays anonymous commenters are male.
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Best comment ever.
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Hear Hear
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Who says abortion is rife? Who says sex was created for procreation? Where are these women who have been taking the pill for “their whole lives”?
This is all about the fear men (and some women) have when people have the power to make decisions about their own bodies. Trouble is, these people are not interested in what happens to these babies after they are born.
Another mistake people make is assuming that making abortion illegal will stop it happening. A five minute discussion with the older members of your family will show the error in this assumption.
The far right want us back in the kitchen tied to the home and out of the business and political arena. I cannot understand why this is and hope that as time passes they will stop being afraid of women. As I get older, I realise this is somewhat of a forlorn hope.
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“Because you are taking part in an act which was created for pro-creation ”
So infertile couples shouldn’t have sex, then?
The “act” isn’t merely about pro-creation, it’s an expression of intimacy between people, and is the glue which has kept many couples together through thick and thin.
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we only get one life- i will be as selfish as i damn well please.
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Check your facts- abortion rarely affects future fertility unless you have several of them, and the pill certainly doesn’t affect fertility.
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Humans don’t have defined “seasons” like many animals do and usually don’t know exactly when they are at their most fertile/ovulating, unlike many animals. So therefore they are able to have sex as often as they want and our bodies are set up to make it pleasurable to encourage us to have sex. Interestingly I’ve heard that pigs can have an orgasm that lasts 30 mins, but I digress.
Btw anonymous, I hope today’s replies to your comments have shown you the negative impacts of your own ways.
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I do not for the life of me undrstand why this is an election topic. Abortion in my mind is a personal choice, The decision should be soley the parents, I do believe a father should get a say, of course depending on the circumstances. It is most definately not the governments decision. There is the medical knowledge and technology to perform safe abortions, why are they (Americans) making such a big deal about it? Im sure all the true catholics out there, would choose to keep an unwanted child and Im sure they believe that will get them a spot in ‘heaven’. Its not going to affect them if old matey across the road does not share their beliefs and chooses to abort.
These goverments need to pull their heads in and focus on the big stuff.
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A woman’s body is her own. As blurred as the line is between anti choice and pro life, the fact remains we are a free society and we should be allowed to do with our bodies as we see fit. Every situation is different, and if you asked everyone that has had an abortion why they did it, their reasons would be varied, but for the most part well considered.
It is never an easy decision, under any circumstance. To reduce it to removing a ball of cells implies that there is no thought required by the parents in making such a harrowing decision. This is entirely false.
Believe in choice. Believe in life. Follow your own instincts at all times, and allow others to do the same. Calling someone selfish when they are riddled with emotion over a terrifying and heartbreaking decision they know in their gut that they have to make is the very definition of the word itself. Selfish. And more importantly, it shows an utter lack of compassion in a world that is desperately crying out for greater human understanding.
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Just went back on to add the point of how hard the choice of abortion would be to make and how much thought and emotion these women would put into such a choice and I saw you had posted. Well said and too right. I think too frequently their choice is simplified and the complications and circumstances dismissed. It is a courageous choice for some women and something they will carry with them forever. Its not right for other people to judge them and vilify them when it is not something that they will be thinking about for the rest of their lives. Its their choice to make. Its their conscience. They have what they weighed up to be for the best. Let them get on with it without making them feel worse than they already probably do.
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Beautifully put, MOTCM. I’m not even going to add a thing!
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I don’t think middle aged men should be talking about something that does not affect them personally and they have no experience with? How does an abortion affect the rest of society? it doesn’t. So they should mind their own business . Morals are personal and I understand why people wouldn’t personally have an abortion. But they do not have a right to force that on others when it clearly does not affect society as a whole.
I don’t agree with the free contraceptives though- If you have a concession they only cost $5.80 for 4 months supply. Just over a dollar per month. And if you don’t the generics at discount chemists cost about $10 for the same amount.
In Australia cost isn’t the issue.
The Morning After Pill though- They put a huge marks up at the chemist to pay for the time of the pharmacist to discuss and explain how it works, the precautions, the chances it won’t work etc. Maybe a government subsidy here would be useful? I personally have paid for it for girls who couldn’t afford it as I couldn’t send them away with nothing.
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So, all middle aged men, most of which are husbands, parents to daughters etc, are banned from having an opinion? Or is it just those men that have an opinion you do not agree with? As a man, I find your comment offensive and sexist quite frankly.
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I don’t think the lack of an unwanted baby of a 15 year old girl is anyone’s business but hers and the dad. A man standing p in Parlament dictating her rights is offensive.
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Amandarose,
As much as you find the thought of a man in parliament discussing abortion offensive, you should remember that he was elected to parliament to represent a number of people. That doesn’t mean that he must repeat the views of his constituents, it means that he can say in parliament what he believes to be correct. That is how the system works.
If you don’t like him, then don’t vote for him, but he has every right to say whatever he damn well wants in Parliament.
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Have an opinion by all means. Don’t try to force women who are actually in the position of having to make the decision, decide your way.
There should be no abortion laws at all, as is the case in Canada. In the early weeks which is when almost all abortions take place, it is the mother’s decision and in the later stages which is when abortions take place because things have gone catastophically wrong, it is a medical decision taken by the mother and her doctors.
Your opinion doesn’t, and shouldn’t, ever come into it.
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As a man, risking your own life to carry a baby to full term is something you will never be in a position to worry about (lucky you!).
Why should you make a choice like to force that on any woman?
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The contraceptive with a concession doesn’t work for everybody. A standard cocktail of hormones doesn’t help the entire population.
I’m lucky that my pill only costs me $20-odd per 4 months. But I know many women who pay $70-month for the brand that works for them.
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Those more expensive pills are really not that much better unless you have severe acne. Overated most of them.
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Not true Amandarose.
Necessary alternatives for some women with PCOS or other hormone/ gynae issues and often nothing to do with acne.
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People also swap brands because they need different doses due to side effects like depression, break through bleeding, pain etc. Not everyone is able to use the cheap ones successfully.
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The fact they are not PBS listed is a good indication they have not been shown to be cost effective. Dianne is really cheap these days in generic through discount chemists. Even the expensive ones are less then $20 per month. If a young girl is poor and in need of contraception she will make do with what is available. Sure there are differences but they are not as great as one would hope for the extra cash.
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You think abortion does not affect middle aged men at all. That is ridiculous.
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last time I checked men don’t grow babies. Unless they are the dad then no none of their business if Jane down the road has an abortion.
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last time I checked, Julia Gillard is not a mum, but this site defended to the death her right to an opinion, and to be a decision maker on the issue.
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She does have a uterus though.
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omg, what the, so a male politician without kids cant make decisions regarding families but Julia can. Oh, this just gets better.
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The difference is PM Gillard has never tried to use her opinion to try and restrict women’s choices. Her view is allowing women the freedom to decide for themselves what’s right for them.
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Please explain how it affects you then.
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It is up to governments as they decide.the legality of abortion.The argument is whether morality or religious beliefs should be a part of the argument.
In Australia this is a state government issue.
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I am non-religious, anti-abortion and pro-free conception.
I don’t stand around abortion centres with a pitchfork. Instead I lobby for the improvement of ways to make things easier for mums in need (eg better maternity leave options) and donate to the social work department of my maternity hospital, as I think that is a more effective way of promoting the choice of life. In this day and age we have fantastic access to contraception, I’m all for making it even more affordable and easier to access so there’s really no way that a baby needs to be killed in utero.
I do believe babies are a gift, and have massive admiration to the women who keep their babies despite financial/emotional difficulties (My mum was single and poor. Do I care that I had a poor childhood? Not really, I’m just extremely grateful that she chose to give me life instead of killing me).
I am also very pro-adoption and am still scratching my head at why it’s emotionally easier for women to kill their unborn child rather than give it away. It doesn’t make sense to me!
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Try being raped, and then carrying the rapists child for 9 months. A constant reminder of what happened to you when all you want to do is move on with your life. Then you have to give birth to a child that is half your rapist. This is why it is “easier” to abort a rapists baby.
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Out of interest, what proportion of terminations are due to rape? Obviously rape is a seperate issue re this topic, but what are the statistics.
It seems to always be at the fore of the argument used by pro abortionists. Is it a significant issue, or an convenient emotive way of supporting a view point, despite the reality that is represents only the tiniest proportion of abortions?
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In any case, I’m sure if only rape-related abortions were legal they would still be jumping up and down.
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I agree with you to an extent. I think that rape, as terrible and abhorrent as it is, raises valid arguments for fully legalised abortion, but that is not to say that other women don’t have valid reasons too. I think the argument should be that women have lots of reasons for abortion. And almost all of the time they are perfectly valid. Either way a woman’s right to control what happens within her body should be respected, regardless of other people’s personal beliefs.
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I think it depends on how you define rape. If it is a stranger in a dark alley, then perhaps the percentage is probably low. If your definition of rape is pressure exerted either by a boyfirend or husband when a woman doesn’t want to have sex and says no, but sex still takes places then there would be a greater likelihood of rape related pregnancies.
Is it sexist for women to say that they should be the only ones making the decision for themselves? I guess its the same level of prejudice as if women could decide if men could buy condoms or have vasectomies. As a woman I don’t feel like its my right to make that decision for a man, whether it be my father, partner or child.
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Very few rape cases are due to a stranger in a dark alley.
Most rape is perpetrated by someone known to the victim.
But there is no difference between the two – they are both rape and separating them as you have in your comment is a completely artificial divide.
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I used to think this before I had children. But now I understand it’s not so simple.
If a woman doesn’t want a baby, it means she doesn’t want a baby in her, coming out of her, or part of the general population.
Pregnancy makes a massive impact on a woman’s life. Massive. It can affect her health, career, relationships – everything.
Abortion vs adoption – it’s not that simple and the two are not equal.
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Are you the same Cathy who said a few days ago on the mamamia Ireland abortion clinic post that women have terminations out of “shame” because they “just want their ‘problem’ to go away”?
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“and am still scratching my head at why it’s emotionally easier for women to kill their unborn child rather than give it away. It doesn’t make sense to me!”
This trouble me also. If I can’t have it nobody can.
I am firmly in the camp “safe, affordable and rare” – it seems to be the “rare” thing that is the most contentious. It isn’t rare. Why ?
I’m all for making contraception free. Definitely. And the morning after pill too, although I think the addition of this innovation could lead/has lead to less responsibility in sexual behaviour.
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The thing is, no-one really knows what the real abortion figures are in Australia, because abortion and post-miscarriage curettage are treated the same by Medicare – Medicare Benefits Schedule 35643.
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Do you know exactly how long it takes for to adopt a child in Australia? Most usually it takes around five years or it never even happens. Otherwise the kids put into the foster system are constantly bounced around homes and have very unstable lives. It’s not a good childhood to have. I know a few of these kids and whilst some of them are lovely, some of them have behavioural and discipline problems and these kids are the ones who can never stay in a permanent home for very long.
Sometimes it’s easier to abort a child (who is still in the stage where it’s a bunch of cells, as most women don’t wait till they’re 20 weeks into the pregnancy to abort) than to give them up into a foster system knowing that the child will not have a stable childhood.
If we have this technology available to us and we are able to access it, then why force a woman to keep a child/go through with a pregnancy when she doesn’t want to or can’t afford to?
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‘Kill an unborn child’. ‘Killing babies in utero’.
That right there is why I loathe the mealy mouthed wailings of anti abortionists.
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I’m going to reply with a comment I made on the Irish abortion post the other day:
So what if you’re using contraception and it fails? If you’re using contraception it would suggest you aren’t up for having a baby, right? Where do those of us to whom this has happened sit in your view of how things should run? I’ve had it happen to me twice. The first time it was absolutely the right thing to do to terminate. The second time, it was absolutely the right thing to do to keep the baby. My beliefs, my body, my decision. No-one else’s, especially when it generally comes from a religious belief system that I (and plenty of other people in our society) don’t adhere to. And you don’t know the contraception fails until you are, you know, pregnant. So what happens then?
Being pro-choice doesn’t make you pro-abortion you know. Pro-choice people don’t run around trying to force pregnant women to have abortions. The same can’t be said for anti-choice people and the approach many of their vocal proponents take.
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Great article Mia. I’m going to repeat exactly what I said on another article…
Once you take the nutjobs out of the debate, the reasonable, intelligent people who oppose abortion (and often, frighteningly, choice) all seem to claim they’re fighting for the human rights of the fetus. I see absolutely no point in discussing whether it’s a baby/fetus/cluster of cells and whether as a result it has rights or not. The fact is we have no conclusive evidence yet on issues like whether the fetus has a consciousness and at what point in gains that conciousness means we can all have varying and equally valid beliefs and that is fine. But therefore, and this is the crux of my argument, no one should push their beliefs about the rights and status of the fetus onto anyone else. No one should attempt to restrict another person’s access to abortion because of their own personal beliefs (based on no concrete evidence) about the status of the fetus. In a largely secular modern society I can’t believe I’m worried that could still happen. If a woman believes the fetus is a cluster of cells that has no rights, who the hell is anyone else to tell her it isn’t? Are they god? Are they claiming to have all the answers…..? I don’t believe anyone could genuinely be that deluded but those people obviously exist, they’re the people that give up their weekends to harass vulnerable women when they picket outside of abortion clinics.
Have diverse beliefs. Share those beliefs respectfully, that’s fine. But don’t be so self righteous and ignorant as to support or attempt the restriction or banning of abortion just because of your non evidence based beliefs. If you don’t agree with abortion don’t have one, it’s so simple.
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I should clarify I’m talking about early abortion in the first few weeks not late term abortion, that’s a different issue
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That is such a good point. It is an emotional topic for most of us and there is such a wide range of beliefs. Surely we can celebrate some level of diversity of beliefs amongst ourselves without having to resort making an option illegal for other people.
I feel very uncomfortable about abortion for myself, but that is me making my own decision. Other people will make their own. It might be different from mine but I support their decision to do so.
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Yet another ignorant male attempting to control what happens with a woman’s body. Disgusting but hardly surprising. Very well written article Mia.
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“If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.” ~ Florynce Kennedy
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A sacrament? Why? What does that even mean?
I think that sounds appalling.
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It’s kind of a religious rite of passage, In Catholicism, sacraments include baptism, reconciliation, eucharist, confirmtion, marriage, extreme unction etc. No doubt related to the word ‘sacred’.
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I know what sacrament means, but I am unable to apply it to abortion. Which is why I asked what it means..in that context. How would abortion be a rite of passage if men had abortions? I find the notion quite offensive actually. (and not from a religious point of view- I am in no way religious)
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I think the person is saying that if the roles were reversed, and men were the ones needing abortions, then this would be celebrated rather than made illegal.
Similar sentiment to mine: if men were the ones that had to insert something into an orifice for one week of every month to soak up their blood, there would not be a LUXURY TAX on tampons. This was imposed by men. Who do not understand that tampons are not a luxury item.
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Thank you, Leiah2006, for articulating very well what the sentiment BEHIND the quote is. I think some people reading it have completely missed the point. I did write a response yesterday in a similar vein to yours but MM did not publish it – not sure why as I didn’t think it was in any way offensive. But I do get sarcastic sometimes and perhaps it was a bit much for them!
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I have tried to reply to Simone.
I know what sacrement means. I don’t know what the quote means. I certainly wouldn’t want abortion to be a rite of passage.
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I think it’s more along the lines of what leiah has said ^^ – if blokes got periods there would be days off for period pain etc written into work agreements, tampons and pads would be free, that kind of thing. If it happened to blokes, it would be celebrated.
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My husband and his former girlfriend had an abortion many years ago. While he doesn’t regret the decision I can guarantee he doesn’t celebrate it. How revoltingly offensive!
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30 people have liked this?
Do you really believe abortion should be a right of passage? That it should be celebrated?
Should all women get pregnant and have an abortion to become real women? I just do not get this at all.
This quote is horrible. And I in no way see how the cost of tampons can in any way shape or form be used in an analogy with abortion.
It’s the quote I’m objecting to. Just put out there like it is some great wisdom.
If the quote was “if men had abortions they’d be legal & free” then sure I agree with that sentiment.
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I think free contraception is only half the solution. Access to the contraception is a problem. Young girls can feel daunted, intimidated and judged when they go to the family doctor asking for contraception. Maybe health clincs set up with specific doctors and staff catered to this area with a free health check each year for young girls would help. I that education and easy access to contraception is a key to preventing unplanned pregnancies.
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You know, funny I was just thinking that. As a female I still feel uncomfortable buying condoms, and while I am on the Pill I still expect my partners to wear them. Even though I don’t buy them myself.
Hm.
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Very true! Being a teenager and daughter of an Anglican minister, i know i could never have the courage to ask for contraception from my doctor or my parents. A lot of my friends have had this problem, when going to their dr they’ve felt judged and ridiculed by them for wanting to prevent unwanted pregnancy. It’s better than the alternative is it not?!
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Their are lots of women’s health centres and sexual health clinics about. I remember going to one in Launceston and it was great and free!
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Sorry I have to call you on that one. Sure in cities etc there are health clinics for women. But in the town I grew up in there were 2 medical centres, local doctors that you ‘knew’. You would have to pay around $50 up front to see a doctor if you didnt have a health care card (and would later drive 30 mins to the local medicare office to get $35 back). I can understand why a lot of young girls (or even grown Women!) might be nervous about seeing a doctor for contraceptive advice. Although it has got better over the past couple of years, they now offer free pap smears.
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Everything Matilda has said re rural difficulties is 100% true. Many 15 year olds can never get around to ‘that’ conversation for the pill for many reasons. And you can’t buy condoms in town when you ‘shouldn’t be having sex’ because every checkout at the supermarket is someone that knows you. Same for your sexual partner. Try having your classmates mum, the receptionist at the local doc hardly known for her discretion, call you to say your std test is clear. A test you had to take because your bf slept with one/2/3 of your friends. Small towns suck for most young women.
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That pretty much already exists- that’s what the sexual health/family planning places are for! Well i know there’s definitely one in perth that has that purpose, with STI screens and all.
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Could not agree more Mia. It consistently astonishes me that when discussing the prolife/prochoice debate, people completely miss the obvious: if you make abortion illegal, IT WILL STILL HAPPEN! It will just be spectacularly unsafe, with a high chance of complications or even death for the woman involved.
I also find it bizarre that many who support the prolife movement do not wish to increase access to contraception or sex education. It just comes back to the old “don’t have sex before marriage.” Yeah. That’s realistic. Especially for rape victims.
Could not agree more with the suggestions put forward here: prevention is better than cure, so increase knowledge and access to contraception. But keep abortions available. Whether you believe a foetus is a cluster of cells or the beginning of a life: taking away that option will only result in a(nother) life put in danger.
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Let’s not ban abortion, let’s ban religion in politics. Actually, let’s ban religion all together. That would make the world a better and more compassionate place.
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Yet another that chooses to only ever see the negatives of religion (of which I admit there is quite a few), and in the process fails to see the significant positives it brings by way of social services to those in need. Ban religion all together you say. Ok, then I assume you will step in full time, as will thousands of othersm to feed and shelter the sick, poor and needy Darrell.
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Religion doesn’t have a monopoly over compassion, humanitarianism or philanthropy!
“Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer” – Christopher Hitchens
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“Ban religion all together you say. Ok, then I assume you will step in full time, as will thousands of othersm to feed and shelter the sick, poor and needy Darrell.”
Anonymous — it appears you are skeptical that the non religious will ” step in full time, as will thousands of othersm [sic] to feed and shelter the sick, poor and needy”. Surely you realise that it is not the religious who have the monopoly on compassion?
I did not need the fear of burning in hell for eternity or belief in the holiness of an Aramaic-speaking man who lived 200 years ago to coerce my donations to charity and help people less fortunate than me and I am certain that the same can be said for the many secular volunteers and social workers.
If banning religion means being without war, hate and intolerance — and bringing in tax revenue from the tax-exempt religions — then bring it on.
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Why should people with religious belief be precluded in participating in politics? I would not argue that someone with atheistic beliefs should also be precluded from public debate.
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“Why should people with religious belief be precluded in participating in politics?”
I don’t see where Darren wanted *people* with religious beliefs banned from partipating in politics but he did say “let’s ban religion in politics.”
The Australian Constitution does forbid the Commonwealth parliament to make laws for or establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.
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Further to the question asked about when we all consider life to begin..
I find it incredibly hypocritical that so many women on this site mourn the children lost in miscarriages with such sorrow… yet when the A-word comes up, they rally to support the pro-choice point of view.
Make up your minds. How can you value one life more than another based on the level of convenience? Does the life of the child you lost at 12, 16, 25 weeks of pregnancy only count because you actually wanted that one?
I won’t label myself as either camp, because I don’t know what I would do (or would have done when younger) in that situation. Safe, legal and rare for sure, but don’t kid yourselves into thinking that the pregnancies (lives) lost through choice matter less than those lost by chance.
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In the case of a miscarriage, most people would understand that the pregnancy was not viable, and the miscarriage occurred for a reason. Thousands of spontaneous abortions occur every year. People mourn for the loss of a future child, the idea of it. I believe anyone who has an abortion also mourns something, to a greater or lesser degree. Your ‘make up your minds’ comment is quite obtuse to me, especially when you admit yourself that you don’t know what choices you might have made.
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I don’t think in the case of a miscarriage its the embryo itself we mourn, often its the dream, the possibilities of the baby I wanted so desperately, taken away from us against our will.
In a later miscarriage, in an obviously wanted pregnancy, after we have felt our baby move and she has become an actualized baby in our hearts and bodies, we mourned the loss of our girl who liked capers and responded to her daddys voice.
In an unwanted pregnancy that love, those dreams don’t exist. The emotions there would be fear, loathing and regret. That’s what makes the value of each different to me.
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This. Articulated perfectly, thank you.
I think the saddest thing is that the whole pro-life vs pro-choice debate is really no abortion vs abortion. Choices in Australia have not increased with the (selective) legalisation of abortion. It seems to have just made other choices less convenient, which is terribly sad.
Hands up those who have adopted an australian baby, or given a baby up for adoption. How many of us struggle to conceive, yet adoption is not an option because of the cost and waiting periods involved. The process is inhibitive and a reduction in viable choices for women. I wouldn’t want my unborn child to enter “the system” as it currently stands, i don’t think anyone would, which makes abortion feel like the most humane choice. How is it that in a developed country, the killing of unborn children (as they would be known if it was a desired pregnancy) is a more humane option than adoption? When there are so many childless couples out there, desperately wanting, it makes no sense to me at all.
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Because pregnant women are not charity for childless couples.
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Some people talk about adoption as a solution to an unwanted pregnancy like it’s an easy option. It means the pregnant woman must carry an unwanted baby to term, give birth and then relinquish the child, with all the grief and pain that entails.
It also means the child is removed from it’s mother, it’s family and is placed with strangers. Sometimes it works out, but sometimes it doesn’t. Even with so called “open” adoption as it exists today, adoptees don’t always “fit” into their adoptive family and grieve the loss of their biological one.
Infertility is a different problem to unwanted pregnancy. Babies are not commodities to be traded to ease a desire to parent.
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These days couples with fertitiliy problems generally go to IVF clinics, not adoption services.
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That is a really good way of putting it
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The problem with your argument is that you assume there is no sense of loss with an abortion. There is. Whether you miscarry by misfortune or make a decision based on your circumstances to terminate a pregnancy it is devastating.
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” Whether you miscarry by misfortune or make a decision based on your circumstances to terminate a pregnancy it is devastating.”
The problem with you argument is that you are make the same mistake. You assume that you know and understand how other people feel.
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Actually, I don’t assume at all. That’s my point. People have abortions for a range of reasons and this should be respected. Anon assumes there is no trauma with making a decision to terminate a pregnancy. I offer a different opinion. I think there is trauma. There was for me, and other commenters to this post.
We can’t assume that there is no loss associated with abortion and compare it to the loss associated with miscarriage, because we can’t know how people feel. Every circumstance is different and women’s rights should be respected as such.
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What I should have made clear is that for some women a termination can be a relief and even a triumph. I know that is how I felt about my TOPs. (Technically my nom de plume should be “nulliparous”)
To say it is “devastating” for all women runs the risk of playing into the hands of the anti-choicers from the faux pro-women camp (Melinda Tankard-Reist et al) who take the position that abortion harms women.
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I agree. We need more women talking about how their having abortions HASN’T left them grieving and messed up. I’ve never felt an ounce of regret about mine. It was the right thing to do, and I refuse to placate anti-choicers with claims of my tortured soul living with the regret every day, because I don’t. And I’d wager there are plenty more women who feel that way than those who feel the other way.
Not that it matters, but I was convinced that I was going to end up dying on the oncology ward my sister was working on at the time when I had my abortion, because I had insane bleeding. When the doc told me I was pregnant, my reaction was relief, because I knew I could fix that. I was scared of the procedure, but I’d never been in hospital or anything similar before that, and I was a bit crazy with the hormones afterwards, but at no time have I ever felt any shame or regret, or sat staring out a window wondering “What if??”. And I won’t apologise for that.
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Mother of two cheeky monkeys, I’ve had two teminations and never ever felt an ounce of regret or guilt. Just sheer relief. Contraceptive failure ( I am 57 so it was over a period of 30 years) and I do know others who have had terminations in fact most women I know have had them and seriously have not noticed any ‘devastation’. those of us who never wanted children are happy that it was safely availalbe and there’s not a lot of envy for those who parented-!
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Sorry if I offended anyone. I wasn’t trying to suggest that everyone has to feel a certain way. But I have had abortions, and I know others that have, and for many it is a harrowing decision. If it wasn’t for you ladies above, I am really glad for you. My point was that so many anti-choicers are making the comment that it is an easy way out. My opinion is that it is not easy. Even if you feel no guilt, or feel a lot of relief, it is still a surgical procedure which I assume you put some thought into before entering into it? Such as researching which clinic to attend?
I don’t think its necessary to separate the emotion from the act. Many, many people will feel something about having an abortion, even when they are sure they are doing the right thing. They are entitled to those feelings as surely as you are entitled not to have them. The argument is the same. A woman’s choice is her choice. Always. Whether you feel guilty about the consequences or not. But to to compare abortion to miscarriage is flawed because it implies there is no emotion involved in the decision to abort. And for so many of us there is.
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It’s not either or. I think you’ll find that nobody cheerfully decides to have an abortion then cheerfully walks out and doesn’t think twice about it. Most women really agonise over that decision then mourn afterwards, but still know that it was the right decision.
It’s not about valuing the pregnancy differently in wanted or unwanted pregnancies, the emotions can be similar but that doesn’t change the fact that it was the right choice for the person at the time.
In addition, you are imposing your definition of ‘life’ (which I’m assuming is at conception since you refer to pregnancies as lives) on other peoples decision making.
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I think your reasoning on this is flawed. I understand what you’re trying to get at but you’re ignoring some very salient facts of the matter.
A miscarried foetus is now in the ether and there’s no choice in it. That would be heart wrenching for any would-be parent, and to empathise with that pain is not placing value on convenience but value on the feelings of the mother. Value is placed in investment, not on convenience. You’re twisting a very complex psychological issue to suit your agenda and I take offence to that.
You also presume the choice of abortion is easy. It may be necessary, it may be not something you’d choose for yourself – and that’s the beauty of choice, no one is making you – but it is beyond arrogant to assume ease or convenience. There is still an internal mourning for what could have been, as all roads not taken, but in the end, it is a private choice and should continue to be a private choice. Hence why the same women who embrace another and support them over a lost foetus, are often those who rally for choice – that woman had made her choice to keep that child, wanted to raise it and lost it. Empathy is universal.
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Because abortion is a choice. Miscarriage is not.
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A gift is by definition something given with good feelings, and accepted with thanks. A pregnancy as a result of rape is thus far from a gift, it is something forced upon you. I could not accept that kind of a gift.
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Sometimes life is about choosing between 2 unpleasant options. Abortion is not a pleasant experience (to say the least) but in some cases it is the best option in the situation. It is judgemental and insensitive to call women who have abortions, selfish and ungrateful. You never know the circumstances she was in when she made that choice.
There is a difference between terminating a 14 week foetus or a 38 week old foetus. The 38 week old baby could survive in the outside world if given its needs. If a baby was born at 14 weeks it could not survive.
Some people need to stop judging and start educating themselves.
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My most sincere hope is that in 20 years we look back on the stances of the anti-choice and anti-marriage equality stances of today and feel the way we do now about slavery… ‘how could anyone support such a gross violalation of rights…’
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To be the biggest violation of rights is the murder of the unborn child. Don’t kid yourself into thinking most abortions are due to rape, they are due to an inconvenience to the mother. My hope is that in 20 years and wonder how we supported the gross violation of rights of unborn children.
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I doubt that the percentage of rape related abortions is very high at all. That said, if a child were a mere inconvenience, your position would be justifiable. Dragging someone into pregnancy and parenthood that doesn’t want to be there is not a simple inconvenience. It is a life changing event, it is also going to be much harder on the child than not existing at all if they grow up with a parent who is not equipped to deal with this huge responsibilty. That child is not going to grow into a well functioning adult without a hell of a lot of in built resilience and outside help. Then, the cycle will repeat. Think past the embryo or fetus to 40 years time when that child is a parent themselves.
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Well Done. Great comment.
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Dealing with an unwanted pregnancy is difficult and I understand the desperation and circumstances that drives some women to see it as their only option. No matter how strongly one feels about something, when you are faced with the fact of a pregnancy which is unplanned and unwelcome it is very difficult to make any decision other than the one that seems to deal with the problem in the shortest possible way. I have always thought, however, that the fact the rate of abortions is so high is a reflection of society’s norms and attitudes towards children and women rather than simply the individual’s own ethics. Rape aside (I think it deserves its own category of consideration) males and females of all ages have sex, sometimes (even despite contraception) the woman falls pregnant, sometimes the pregnancy is unwanted, often this is then viewed as a social stigma – the mother is too young, too old, too poor, not in a stable relationship etc. Perhaps if there was more support and less approbation towards women who find themselves in the position of having an unwanted pregnancy then more would chose to proceed with the pregnancy either with the intention or raising the child themselves or even – perhaps – consider making the child available for adoption.
And of course the issue of adoption in Australia – and the fear we seem to have of it as a society – is another great issue for an article…
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Great point
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Curious about the abortion stats, do you know if that includes all D & Cs? The same procedure is used for miscarriage so I wonder if stats are lower than we think.
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That’s a good point, I wonder how to find out if D & Cs are included. I’ve had 4 early miscarriages and my body holds onto the pregnancy so I’ve had 4 D&Cs. I would hate those to be included in any data that was used to argue for or against abortion. They should be in a separate category.
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There is no way to work out how many abortions are performed in Australia. The procedure is billed by the procedure as a D & C usually. People discussing the issue know that D & Cs are performed for many reasons. People trying to shame women, like Tony Abbott in 2004 RU486 debate use the D & C figure to claim that abortions are far more common than they are but their aim is not accuracy but to imply women cannot be trusted with their own fertility.
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I believe they are. I’ve had a sh*^load of them, 6 I think. With only one of them being a TOP, three of them post miscarriage and two for retained products. I wonder if retained products post baby D & Cs are counted in there too.
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My understanding of the medicare item number that counts ‘abortions’ has a definition along the lines of ‘dilation and curette for the removal of the products of conception’.
So my four d and cs after miscarriages are counted, as are a number of other procedures after birth of a live child.
It’s a bullshit way to count terminations.
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Agreed. It just gives fuel the the right to lifers/anti abortioners. Especially given about 1 in 5 pregnancies are miscarried and a proportion of those will require curettage, not to mention post delivery curettages. That would be a sizable number.
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I loved this article. It makes me so angry that people in power can force their beliefs on a whole country & take away a persons choice. Its very scarey. If your pro life, you can stay away from abortion, but don’t stick your nose in other people’s decisions. What other people do with their reproductive decisions is nobody else’s business. They still should have a right to abort. For goodness sake people don’t take these issues lightly and there are a whole lot of varying factors on why a woman would have one. It makes me so mad, these men in power for one are not female & have probably for the most, had a privileged life not knowing how much of a struggle life can be, not all people can welcome all ‘gifts’ into their family without any impact. I could go on & on….
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That whole arguement of ‘forceing their beliefs’ is ridiculous. Whenever it’s something you dont agree with or don’t want to hear you’re being ‘forced’. What about those who think/feel/believe the opposite to you. Do you not think that we have pro choice, pro homosexuality, anti-religious sentiments, if not hatred, forced on us everyday by the media and political parties like the Greens? Why is it ok for you all to openly express your opinions, but those who have different morals and values have to shut up and put up?!
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Sorry guest, I don’t get your point. It’s ‘forced’ because ppl in power want to change legislation to take that choice away, based on their beliefs & morals, not neccessarily whats right for society. People can freely discuss their opinions, but when they think they are right & want to change everyone’s availability to such a thing as abortion, that’s not right in my opinion. The topic here is not pro homosexuality or solely religion so I’m not expanding to those topics. I’m talkingabout why I think abortion should be available if its needed.
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Those people are voted in by ‘the people’.
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Big breath in and out. I have just been talking about this very thing. And your free contraception was a much better idea than the things I was considering. I just got out of hospital with my 9 year very sick, spending 5 nights in the childrens ward. One of the other children in for the same amount of time was a two year old. The day we got admitted I saw no parent all day, the following day, same thing. It was left to the nurses and other parents in the ward to care for him (he was in traction). The third day the grandmother arrived, she told me the mother would come later and that she had 6 children, one of them 12 months of age. So, I thought,oh, wow, ok so it would be harder to be in here with that many children at home (we had not left my 9 yr olds side). I later found out that “the mother” in fact, did not have custody of these children, the grandmother did. She turned up and barely said hello to her little fella, who was constantly moaning for her. She then went down for a cigarette. When she got back there was lots of swearing and so on. I found out durung her visit that she had depression and had handed custody of the chldren to the grandmother. She went on to say (because I think she could read my mind) “we were bought up good, my father always said, we dont belive in abortion in this house.” It took all of my strength not to say – how about shutting your legs or the pill !!! And then all I could think of was “FORCED STERALISATION”. I always wonder how we can stomach this blatant child abuse (6 times over in this case – there is more to her story, but I wont go on). But for the adults we struggle with considering forced steralisation for people like this. I really hate living in a society that is ok with child abuse and often death. But God forbid we have free contraception, sex education or forced steralisation. Maybe these do gooders, should do some more good, by spending time helping these defenseless unwanted children, its beyond rediculous. Something has to change !
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Forced Sterilisation? Sounds like extreme red neck control freak crazy to me.
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Love this comment. Giving a child life when all you can offer them is a crappy childhood which more often than not will lead to a crappy life is a mean and ugly thing to impose on the child. This child will then have a higher risk of doing the same thing to their children. It is a vicious cycle.
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